#109 | 5 Steps to Heal Shame and Build LGBTQ Ally Courage: A Guide to Inner Freedom

Heather Hester
00:00:12
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:00:24
My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester
00:00:29
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:00:39
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:00:56
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Host
00:01:13
Welcome to Just Breathe.

Host
00:01:15
I am so happy you all are here today, and I am really happy just to jump right into this chat with Michael and just.

Host
00:01:25
We have so many things to learn from him, so many really, really cool things that he is doing currently.

Host
00:01:32
But before we get into all of those amazing works that you're doing, I would love, and I know that everyone listening would love to know kind of how you got started in this work and what your story is.

Michael
00:01:47
Okay, sure.

Michael
00:01:48
Well, thank you, first of all, for having me here, Heather.

Michael
00:01:50
I'm very excited and I'm, you know, I was.

Michael
00:01:54
I love what you're doing, and I just want to thank you, really, from the bottom of my heart for what you're doing, because it does inspire me to also grow and do more.

Michael
00:02:04
So a little bit about my story, you know, is.

Michael
00:02:08
I guess it's a pretty atypical growing up gay story, which led me to where I am today.

Michael
00:02:16
You know, I am a.

Michael
00:02:17
I'm a master life coach now, but I wasn't always that there.

Michael
00:02:23
You know, that's really where I was led, where my heart was led to.

Michael
00:02:26
But before that, you know, I had a pretty.

Michael
00:02:30
Pretty tough childhood.

Michael
00:02:32
My.

Michael
00:02:33
Not so much in my family unit, but outside of the home, where I was pretty severely bullied for being that sissy and for being overweight.

Michael
00:02:43
I was very overweight as a child, which, you know, all of that led me to really not being okay with who I was.

Michael
00:02:53
You know, I was hiding every aspect of who I was.

Michael
00:02:58
And, you know, now that I've been doing so much inner work and over the years, I've realized that, you know, so many gay children really learn how to navigate and overcompensate.

Michael
00:03:09
For shame.

Michael
00:03:11
Essentially, you know, we knew.

Michael
00:03:13
I knew.

Michael
00:03:14
I should say I knew I was different.

Michael
00:03:16
I knew there was something that was inherently wrong with me because I wasn't like everyone else.

Michael
00:03:24
So I'm telling you a little bit of this story because then it'll sort of lead to how I got to what I'm doing right now.

Host
00:03:30
Absolutely.

Michael
00:03:31
You know, that, that being bullied constantly.

Michael
00:03:33
You know, I was the kid who was bullied on the playground all the time, who heard names that were so deep rootedly painful that I didn't even realize the impact of them.

Michael
00:03:44
You know, I was the kid in junior high that every day was thrown into a locker and locked in there and never felt like I had anyone who I could go to, including, you know, the teachers and the counselors to support me because I didn't want to rock the boat.

Michael
00:04:02
And I certainly didn't want to tell them why I was being, you know, bullied the way I was.

Michael
00:04:08
But all of that bullying and all of the pain and the fear, the deep rooted fear was something that I carried into adulthood.

Michael
00:04:17
And then I realized, actually I was sort of a late bloomer in the gay world.

Michael
00:04:22
When I was 24, I actually realized I was gay.

Michael
00:04:26
And I had done such a great job of covering myself out in the world and navigating myself to look like and act like everyone else that, you know, I was just going along and I didn't even realize what was actually going on.

Michael
00:04:44
I had no, I had no one around me who was gay that I knew.

Michael
00:04:49
So I had no example.

Michael
00:04:51
And.

Michael
00:04:51
But I was in art school, actually.

Michael
00:04:54
I went to school and got a Bachelor's of fine arts.

Michael
00:04:58
And while I was in college, that's when actually I realized I was gay.

Michael
00:05:03
But I still decided to hide it because there was still a shame even within an art community for me at that time.

Michael
00:05:11
So I was really a master at hiding who I was.

Michael
00:05:16
And you know, I've since come to learn that there are stages of shame that most gay children and then gay men, which is who I can speak for, go through that, lead them through their life.

Host
00:05:30
Yeah.

Michael
00:05:31
So life goes on.

Michael
00:05:32
And I get all the high paying jobs and I have a beautiful apartment and I have all the things that we do to show the world externally that we are okay.

Michael
00:05:45
But inside I wasn't and I knew I wasn't.

Michael
00:05:49
And I was hiding my truth to my family.

Michael
00:05:52
I was sneaking out at night with my friends, having, you know, big time.

Michael
00:05:56
I had dual life at that point.

Michael
00:05:59
Once I graduated from college, I will note that when I left, when I left College, I was 150 pounds overweight and I lost that weight in a year when the first time I went to a gay bar, someone shamed me in the bar and I thought, wow, even within my own community, I'm not okay and there's something wrong with me.

Michael
00:06:26
So I did go and I lost the weight.

Michael
00:06:27
I was motivated and my life, you know, I started meeting all these people.

Michael
00:06:31
My life changed.

Michael
00:06:32
But again, I was doing all this perfect cover up of what life could be like.

Michael
00:06:38
And life went on.

Michael
00:06:39
I had big paying jobs, I was vice president of companies, I was the president of a company.

Michael
00:06:45
I was in a creative, I was a creative director for 30 years and I was winning awards.

Michael
00:06:50
I was doing all of this stuff.

Michael
00:06:51
But inside I knew something was still missing.

Michael
00:06:55
And fortunately, I was led to a workshop by the late bestselling author Debbie Ford called the Shadow Process.

Michael
00:07:05
And in that weekend, I don't know if you're familiar with it or Debbie's work, I was introduced to this thing called the shadow.

Michael
00:07:13
And how the shadow actually holds us back from the truth of who we are and living life the way we want it to be.

Michael
00:07:24
The shadow is something we acquire at a very young age, usually under the age of 10.

Michael
00:07:30
And I work with clients to actually start to uncover these shadows.

Michael
00:07:34
And what we do is we make something, we make the world mean something about us.

Michael
00:07:38
We are meaning making machines naturally, as human beings, but as a child, we could not discern what, what really was truth and what, you know, I say what's fact and what's fiction.

Michael
00:07:49
So I took it all in as fiction.

Michael
00:07:52
And then I held onto those shadow beliefs through my life.

Michael
00:07:56
And they were the driver, they were my operating system for how I led my life, which quite honestly was very steeped in fear.

Michael
00:08:05
So everything I did was fear based.

Michael
00:08:07
I believed the world was not safe.

Michael
00:08:09
I believed I was not safe.

Michael
00:08:11
So as this gay man now out in the world, who was outwardly very successful, inwardly, I was not.

Michael
00:08:19
And that weekend completely transformed my life when I realized that that was the, that was the, the real root of my shame.

Michael
00:08:28
The core of the shame was these beliefs that I had acquired.

Michael
00:08:34
No one sort of gave them to me.

Michael
00:08:35
But again, I was acquired by that, you know, and held onto them.

Michael
00:08:40
And once I was able to work with that, I was able to see, wow, this is transformational.

Michael
00:08:47
You know, as a gay man, I could actually changed the way I feel about myself at such a core level.

Michael
00:08:53
And I was blessed with a coach who approached me that weekend and said, hey, I would love to work with you.

Michael
00:09:00
I'm specifically focusing on gay men or the gay community, and I'd love to work with you.

Michael
00:09:06
And he allowed me to work with him.

Michael
00:09:09
And from there, I just uncovered all things about my worthiness and about self love and about, you know, these commitments that we make to ourself.

Michael
00:09:19
And I was able to shift my life.

Michael
00:09:22
You know, that inner journey was such an important aspect of the whole journey for me.

Michael
00:09:28
You know, the author Neil Donald Walsh says, you know, if we don't go within, we go without.

Michael
00:09:36
But I was so scared to look inside because I.

Michael
00:09:39
First of all, I'd never, you know, I was a kid from New York, you know, like, what is this?

Michael
00:09:43
I don't go inside, you know, but doing that and really going in and having that inner journey opened me up to finding the most important person in my life, which was me.

Host
00:09:56
Right?

Michael
00:09:57
You know, really learning to love myself.

Michael
00:10:00
So out of that, doing that work, still creative director, still having this life out here, I also started working on my path to becoming a life coach.

Michael
00:10:10
Because I thought if I can just hold space, because that's really what a life coach does for others, to have these kinds of exploration and revelation.

Michael
00:10:23
Oy.

Michael
00:10:24
That's my purpose in the world.

Michael
00:10:25
That's my passion, you know, to hold that space.

Michael
00:10:29
And from there, I.

Michael
00:10:31
I got certified with the Debbie Ford Institute.

Michael
00:10:34
And then from there, I've now been part of a wonderful institute called 11 Life Coach Academy, where I have additional certifications as a life coach.

Michael
00:10:43
And then a couple of years ago, I said, okay, it's time to leave corporate.

Michael
00:10:47
Thank you for the gifts you gave me.

Michael
00:10:49
Now it's time to really focus on being a life coach and getting out into the world and really helping to support people as best as I can.

Michael
00:10:59
To, you know, I use the terminology of.

Michael
00:11:02
Or the acronym of fly, which is fly, which is to first love yourself.

Michael
00:11:08
Because I realized that when I did that, that was the real game changer for me.

Host
00:11:15
It's so true.

Michael
00:11:16
Yeah, that's how I got here.

Host
00:11:20
Amazing.

Host
00:11:22
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:11:24
I always love hearing people's kind of lifeline, right?

Host
00:11:29
The quick version of your life and how.

Host
00:11:32
Where you started and how you got here.

Host
00:11:34
I think it's so fascinating.

Host
00:11:36
And there were a couple of things that really, really struck me as you were talking.

Host
00:11:42
And one of them I'd already written down that I wanted to talk to you about the shadow belief and definitely want to touch on that some more.

Host
00:11:50
But one thing that I thought as you were talking about those, really start creating them, becoming attached to them when we're young, so very young, and especially depending on kind of what's going on in your life as a child.

Host
00:12:08
And I'M curious as to whether or not in your learning about these and studying that those are also kind of like survival techniques.

Michael
00:12:21
100%, you're absolutely right.

Michael
00:12:23
You know, the beliefs that we, you know, when, when we're children, we form that belief.

Michael
00:12:29
It's a way that we then learn how to navigate through life.

Michael
00:12:34
So it becomes our protective, you know, it's.

Michael
00:12:37
It's our survival mechanism.

Michael
00:12:39
Exactly.

Michael
00:12:40
You know, so if I can think the world isn't safe, then I.

Michael
00:12:46
I'm always on guard.

Michael
00:12:47
You know, I always say, even, you know, I did a men's group this week and I said to them, I still read the room.

Michael
00:12:53
I walk in a room and I read it.

Michael
00:12:56
And I'm not saying that everyone doesn't do that.

Michael
00:12:59
On some level, I do it for.

Host
00:13:00
My own safety, right?

Michael
00:13:02
I look around and go, is anyone going to make fun of me?

Michael
00:13:05
Is someone.

Michael
00:13:06
Even if no one's necessarily going to do that, I still play those tapes and go, am I going to be accepted?

Michael
00:13:12
Is this going to be okay for me?

Michael
00:13:14
So that still became.

Michael
00:13:16
Becomes sort of how I'm navigating through life now.

Michael
00:13:20
The beauty for me is that I can go, oh, there's that shadow belief, right?

Michael
00:13:24
Let me just put it to the side.

Michael
00:13:26
You're safe, you know, and then I evidence in the opposite, right?

Michael
00:13:32
I'll make sure I talk to people and I feel good about the interaction so that then I have more evidence that, you know, I can be safe when I walk in a room.

Michael
00:13:42
But it is definitely something that becomes our natural navigating system until we realize that it no longer serves us.

Michael
00:13:52
And that usually happens in adulthood when, when you just realize that you're just not okay and life is not okay.

Michael
00:13:59
And luckily you not luckily, hopefully you have the desire to go and get some help.

Michael
00:14:06
And when you do, you know, when you discover these kinds of things, that's when then you can shift.

Michael
00:14:12
And when you make those shifts and let it, you know, I always say, is it controlling you or are you controlling it?

Michael
00:14:20
So when you can control it, it becomes much more comfortable.

Michael
00:14:25
Because then you could just say, oh, yeah, there you are.

Michael
00:14:28
Don't worry, I got this right?

Host
00:14:31
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:14:32
A hundred percent, 100%.

Host
00:14:35
And two, I think, you know, on top of that, is that.

Host
00:14:38
Or the first step of that really is that awareness, right?

Host
00:14:43
Because that's such.

Host
00:14:44
I know for me and for a lot of people that I've worked with walk through life for so long kind of unaware, right?

Host
00:14:53
There's all this stuff going on and.

Host
00:14:56
But you're unaware of how it got there that you even can do something about it.

Host
00:15:01
You just know that you feel not right.

Host
00:15:05
Right.

Host
00:15:06
And, you know, whatever you're feeling word is for that for yourself.

Host
00:15:10
And so having that awareness to be like, oh, okay, that's what that is.

Host
00:15:16
And I love that because I do that too.

Host
00:15:18
Like, all of a sudden, I'll catch, you know, I'm doing that thing where I'm, you know, one of, one of my big techniques was to, like, always survey everything and to know, like, the, you know, three possible outcomes of any situation and work it through in my head so I knew what all the outcomes could possibly be.

Host
00:15:37
And then whatever happens, I will already know.

Host
00:15:39
Right.

Host
00:15:40
I didn't realize I was doing that all the time.

Host
00:15:43
I mean, no wonder I was exhausted.

Host
00:15:47
But now it's such a gift to be like, oh, I know what that thing is.

Host
00:15:52
I know what you're doing.

Host
00:15:53
Like, enough.

Host
00:15:54
It's okay.

Host
00:15:55
I'm good.

Host
00:15:56
We're safe.

Host
00:15:56
Everything's fine.

Host
00:15:57
Right.

Host
00:15:57
You know, whatever your internal dialogue turns out to be.

Host
00:16:00
So I do love that.

Host
00:16:02
I think that's so interesting and I really thank you for sharing that.

Host
00:16:06
The name of that book, the Shadow Process by Debbie Ford, and that's also the institute that you worked with to get your certification.

Michael
00:16:14
And just for clarification, the book is called the Dark side of the Light Chasers.

Michael
00:16:19
If you read book, the back end was called the Shadow Process.

Host
00:16:24
Gotcha.

Host
00:16:24
Okay.

Michael
00:16:25
But the, the book, it's on it.

Michael
00:16:27
You know, it's, it's very popular.

Michael
00:16:29
If you just.

Michael
00:16:29
It's on Amazon lots of places.

Michael
00:16:31
It's called the Dark side of the Light Chasers.

Michael
00:16:33
And from there you'll learn about the shadow.

Host
00:16:38
That's.

Host
00:16:38
So I've, you know, I've heard it mentioned in different contexts, and I never was quite.

Michael
00:16:44
And I think it was Carl Jung who actually sort of brought it to light, so to speak.

Host
00:16:50
Sure.

Michael
00:16:51
And Debbie took it.

Michael
00:16:52
And now I'm, again, I'm working with the Levin Life Coach Institute.

Michael
00:16:55
Nancy Levin has also taken it a lot of work around the shadow as well.

Michael
00:17:01
And she's training coaches out there, people who want to get out there and support people in the shadow and other things as well.

Michael
00:17:08
So.

Michael
00:17:09
But, you know, when, when you realize that those shadows are there, so much of life begins to make sense, Heather.

Michael
00:17:17
Because then you can go in and we say, you know, we, we sort of say we want to uncover them or bust them open.

Michael
00:17:23
And then the intention is to go in and shift your, your understanding of, of how life Truly is like, then it's what's fact and what's fiction, you know, so we actually go back to what we.

Michael
00:17:37
We call the origin point.

Michael
00:17:39
Like when you actually made that commitment, when you embraced that the world was not safe.

Host
00:17:46
Right.

Michael
00:17:46
And we look at it through the eye of the child and we realize that we're looking at it through the eye of a child.

Michael
00:17:51
And then we reinterpret the situation as an adult and we say, okay, so.

Michael
00:17:57
Or even as a teenager.

Michael
00:17:58
Okay, so is this really still true?

Host
00:18:01
Right.

Michael
00:18:02
Does this still hold truth?

Michael
00:18:04
Or is it something that we can change and we could look at the situation differently and that's what you work through them.

Michael
00:18:11
It's not quite as simple as 1, 2, 3, like that, but.

Host
00:18:14
No, it's not.

Host
00:18:15
But that is basically.

Host
00:18:16
Yeah, that is exactly right.

Host
00:18:18
That is how it.

Host
00:18:19
I mean, there's a lot.

Host
00:18:20
And it's.

Host
00:18:21
Everything's intertwined, right?

Michael
00:18:23
Yes, absolutely.

Michael
00:18:25
We don't realize that so many of our habits and behaviors and those types of things are driven by our beliefs, essentially.

Michael
00:18:34
You know, so.

Michael
00:18:35
So often it's just helping.

Michael
00:18:37
For me, it's helping clients just look at your behavior and that's going to tell you so much about what you believe.

Host
00:18:46
Right.

Michael
00:18:46
And your outward world is an expression of your internal world.

Michael
00:18:52
So whatever you're feeling inside is going to actually be out pictured there.

Michael
00:18:56
So if you're.

Michael
00:18:57
If you're feeling anxiety or stress, like, look outside and see where is there unrest and unsettled in my world.

Michael
00:19:06
And then what can I do to settle it down?

Michael
00:19:09
What do I need to do?

Host
00:19:10
Right, right.

Host
00:19:12
What tools do I need or what?

Host
00:19:13
You know, that's where all of the.

Host
00:19:15
Having tools at hand or being able to recognize and name the whole.

Host
00:19:23
Just be able to name these things is so incredibly helpful.

Michael
00:19:26
Yes.

Michael
00:19:27
And as I always said, I wish that I had that when I was, you know, 18 years old, you know, like when I was much younger, so that I can.

Michael
00:19:35
I could have left it behind and move forward.

Host
00:19:39
Yes.

Host
00:19:40
Goodness.

Host
00:19:41
I would have settled for it, you know, at 30.

Host
00:19:44
Right.

Michael
00:19:45
Okay.

Michael
00:19:46
I'll even take that.

Host
00:19:47
Sure.

Host
00:20:44
I think I would have known much better what to do with it at 30 than maybe at 18.

Host
00:20:47
But still.

Host
00:20:48
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:20:49
Yes, I do have that.

Host
00:20:50
I'm like, why did it have to take so long for me to learn these things?

Host
00:20:55
And then, of course, now, as you.

Host
00:20:57
I'm sure you're the same way.

Host
00:20:59
The more you learn, the more you want to learn, the more you want to uncover and the more you want to just continually like when you realize that you can do so much to grow and to evolve and then help others grow and evolve.

Michael
00:21:13
Wow.

Michael
00:21:14
Yeah.

Michael
00:21:14
Coolest thing.

Michael
00:21:15
Yeah.

Michael
00:21:15
Because the thing, you know, it's like, yeah, what I'd love to do it at 18, would I love to do it at 30.

Michael
00:21:20
But for me to be as in alignment with the people that I work with, I also feel like I needed the journey for.

Host
00:21:33
Sure.

Host
00:21:33
That's part of what makes you so relatable.

Host
00:21:35
Right, Right.

Michael
00:21:36
Yeah.

Michael
00:21:37
Because my thing too is, and I always say this to people I work with as well, if you don't understand the dark, you can't appreciate the light.

Host
00:21:47
Right.

Michael
00:21:48
Got to know both.

Michael
00:21:49
So I know for myself, so much of that was my journey.

Michael
00:21:53
That was my hero's journey, so to speak.

Michael
00:21:54
You know, Joseph Campbell, hero's Journey.

Michael
00:21:56
There we go.

Michael
00:21:57
You know, it's like, I know that that was my journey to go out and to live this life that I just was sort of traipsing through, ultimately knowing that I wasn't okay.

Michael
00:22:12
And then, you know, again, so fortunate to find the path, which then led me to spiritual centers and spiritual travel and all kinds of things that really has helped me turn it all inside, where I know that's really where the wisdom lies.

Michael
00:22:28
So the more we can, you know, guide ourself, and then, you know what I love Lady Gaga always says, you know, the more we can love ourself, then it becomes infectious for the rest of the world.

Michael
00:22:42
And, you know, that's.

Michael
00:22:44
It's so true and so key because everything can shift when we're okay with who we are, when we're not.

Michael
00:22:52
We can't really be.

Michael
00:22:54
We can't show up the way we really would love to show up or authentically show up when we are having all of this thunderstorm inside of us as well.

Host
00:23:04
Right, right.

Host
00:23:06
That is so incredibly true.

Host
00:23:09
And I think too, you know, circling back to the understanding the dark, embracing the dark so we can appreciate the light.

Host
00:23:19
That.

Host
00:23:19
That's a big piece.

Host
00:23:20
Is actually being able to.

Host
00:23:22
I mean, that sounds kind of like, oh, of course.

Host
00:23:24
Well, that's really hard to do.

Host
00:23:28
Right.

Host
00:23:28
I mean, to.

Host
00:23:29
Actually, I'm just thinking of, you know, certain.

Host
00:23:31
Certain people in my lifetime that I have known how difficult that that would be for them.

Michael
00:23:42
That.

Host
00:23:43
That.

Host
00:23:43
That is just something that I don't, you know, I don't know that they will ever do because that.

Host
00:23:50
It's hard and you have to be super vulnerable.

Host
00:23:55
And there's a lot of work that goes into that.

Host
00:23:58
But, you know, again, to your point.

Host
00:24:00
It is incredibly worth it.

Michael
00:24:02
Yeah, it is.

Michael
00:24:03
I mean, that's.

Michael
00:24:04
You know, it's.

Michael
00:24:06
You know, one of the things that I've become aware of recently is that so many.

Michael
00:24:11
You know, because I've been dealing, I've been working a lot.

Michael
00:24:13
I've been exploring a lot with shame and trauma and, you know, the effect of that on the LGBTQ community.

Michael
00:24:21
And, you know, so much.

Michael
00:24:24
So much writing and so many things that I've realized is that so many people can go through life completely unaware and stuck and in this sort of.

Michael
00:24:34
On that hamster wheel of self abuse and shame and, you know, and never.

Michael
00:24:39
Never want to.

Michael
00:24:41
Never feel like or, you know, want to take the time to say, well, what can I do for me?

Michael
00:24:47
You know, they will actually go through a lifetime, as you're saying, without any inner peace.

Host
00:24:53
Yeah.

Michael
00:24:54
And some of it, unfortunately, is because, you know, outwardly, the world also tells us, as gay men, you know, in the LGBT community, you know, that there's something inherently wrong with us.

Michael
00:25:06
Not everyone, for sure, but there is still a collective consciousness.

Host
00:25:11
Right.

Michael
00:25:12
That holds many people in.

Michael
00:25:15
In that victim consciousness, and they don't ever really get the opportunity to work through that.

Michael
00:25:23
And I know people who will go to their grave that way.

Michael
00:25:29
It's very interesting when you think about that, and.

Michael
00:25:34
And you're right.

Michael
00:25:34
Like, how many people will never really even contemplate because it's almost too scary.

Michael
00:25:39
Like, what is light?

Michael
00:25:40
What is dark?

Michael
00:25:40
What is that all about?

Michael
00:25:41
It's too scary.

Michael
00:25:42
I don't.

Michael
00:25:43
I don't want to know that stuff.

Host
00:25:44
Right, Exactly.

Host
00:25:45
I'm fine.

Host
00:25:46
I'm fine.

Michael
00:25:47
Right.

Host
00:25:47
I'll just.

Michael
00:25:48
I'll go on, as I call it, autopilot, and I will just continue to slide through life and do my thing, and.

Michael
00:25:56
But inwardly, I knew, for me, I couldn't do it.

Michael
00:25:59
I couldn't anymore.

Host
00:26:01
Well, and I think when I had this, you know, for.

Host
00:26:05
For me, when I had this revelation and started on this path is.

Host
00:26:08
It was such.

Host
00:26:09
I was so blown away that all of this was available to me, that I had all of these choices suddenly that I never realized I had.

Host
00:26:19
So I was like, oh, I can do this.

Host
00:26:22
You know, I'm allowed to take care of myself, or, you know, I'm allowed to take time to learn.

Host
00:26:28
And.

Host
00:26:29
And that actually wasn't okay.

Host
00:26:31
Like, that's not the way everybody grows up or whatever, you know, Whatever.

Michael
00:26:36
Right, right, right.

Host
00:26:37
So I think, you know, there's also that where you're just like, holy cow, this is extraordinary.

Host
00:26:44
And I want everybody to Feel this way.

Heather Hester
00:26:47
It.

Host
00:26:47
Yes, it can be scary, but the other side of it is so worth it.

Host
00:26:55
So that's, you know, that's a joke.

Michael
00:26:58
And say, like, once I became certified the first time in my coaching, I was like, they should give this away at the grocery store.

Michael
00:27:06
You know, like, this is like.

Michael
00:27:08
This is like something that should be handing out because it is life changing.

Host
00:27:13
Right?

Host
00:27:13
Yeah, I mean, it is.

Host
00:27:16
It totally is.

Host
00:27:18
Just so I really, I wanted, before I lose this, because I keep looking, I made a note.

Host
00:27:23
I wanted to ask you, you had mentioned this, stages of shame.

Host
00:27:28
And since we were kind of circling around that again right now, I wanted to ask you about that and if you could talk about that a little bit, because I do often talk about.

Host
00:27:38
Actually I'm doing a series right now on the stages of coming out, which, of course, there's a lot of shame that's, you know, talked about and worked through in those stages, but this is even more specific.

Host
00:27:49
So could you talk about that a little bit?

Michael
00:27:51
Yeah.

Michael
00:27:52
Again, I'm sort of in this exploration around it because I am in the process of writing a book and, you know, so much of it is about the, you know, working through my own shame, realizing what it was, realizing that it was there.

Michael
00:28:07
And I, you know, a lot of it.

Michael
00:28:09
I'm going to reference specifically the Velvet Rage.

Michael
00:28:11
I don't know if you're familiar with that book by Alan Downs.

Host
00:28:13
So good.

Michael
00:28:14
He talks so much about shame and how it is this.

Michael
00:28:19
This guttural core feeling inside of gay men.

Michael
00:28:23
Again, he's.

Michael
00:28:24
He's marginalizing, even within the community to gay men because that's the experience he has.

Michael
00:28:28
Same thing myself, where, you know, he talks about stages of shame.

Michael
00:28:34
And I, as.

Michael
00:28:35
As I was learning and reading, I was like, wow, that was totally me.

Michael
00:28:40
You know, the first, which is very common, is that, you know, when we were.

Michael
00:28:45
We're younger, we sort of are in the avoidance stage where we're like, this is.

Michael
00:28:51
That's not me.

Michael
00:28:52
You know, like, I can't be that way, even though deep down inside we know something is different.

Michael
00:28:58
So everything is done to fit the norm, so to speak.

Michael
00:29:04
You're going to dress a certain way, you're going to act a certain way.

Michael
00:29:07
You're going to go, you're going to join the football team, you're going to, you know, go to the dances, you're going to have a girlfriend, possibly.

Michael
00:29:16
You're going to do things that are just in a way for you to avoid what might possibly be going on.

Host
00:29:23
Right.

Michael
00:29:24
And that is really just a way of pushing down all your emotions.

Michael
00:29:31
But ultimately, you know, again, something is not completely in alignment with everyone else.

Host
00:29:37
Right.

Michael
00:29:38
So that's when you really learn to navigate and to.

Michael
00:29:41
In this first stage where you learn to navigate your life.

Michael
00:29:44
And I know for me, I did that and it was interesting.

Michael
00:29:48
As I look back, all of my friends in high school, with the exception of two, were all girls because that was my safe place, right.

Michael
00:29:57
And they all thought I was fun and, you know, that kind of thing and, you know, and it was easy and.

Michael
00:30:03
But like I was going to avoid gym, I was avoiding locker rooms, I was never going to be in any of those kinds of situations, but I went to the prom, I did all of that kind of thing.

Michael
00:30:13
So that first stage is pretty influential until you sort of leave the home, if you will.

Michael
00:30:20
Perhaps you go to college or, you know, you, you go out and work and, and you're suddenly in a different place.

Michael
00:30:26
And he calls the stage two, which I love is the overcompensation stage, where you, the shame is almost like your drug and you used it to motivate you to move forward in your life.

Michael
00:30:44
And, and that's when you will see so many gay men who are very high paid, who have many degrees, who are fashion designers, who have big cars and vacation homes and, you know, all of those things.

Michael
00:30:58
They have the perfect body, you know, they, you know, are the social light.

Michael
00:31:03
You know, I always used to say I was the funnest person in the room.

Michael
00:31:06
The only person that was not having a good time was me.

Host
00:31:10
Right.

Michael
00:31:11
But everyone else was having a great time.

Michael
00:31:12
Outwardly, I looked like the life of the party and I had a beautiful apartment and I had more than one home and at homes and a great car and a great job.

Michael
00:31:24
And all you do is overcompensate, compensate.

Michael
00:31:28
And you use that as, this is my belief, you use it as sort of like a hit on it from a drug almost where it's like, if I could just get that new car, then I'm okay for right now.

Michael
00:31:42
But then that goes away and then if I could just get that new boyfriend, then look at me, I'm okay, you know, so there's that overcompensation stage that many men live through their entire life and never can get out of that stage.

Host
00:31:58
Right.

Michael
00:31:58
Because we don't realize that it's there.

Host
00:32:01
Yeah.

Michael
00:32:02
So when you can embrace yourself, when you get to the point, and honestly, a lot of times, you know, it's about like, I just can't go out one more day.

Michael
00:32:13
And try and dress up and look this way, and it's like, because you're so inauthentic on so many levels that you.

Michael
00:32:21
You just can't do it anymore, and you realize that you need to shift.

Michael
00:32:26
And again, for me, I was very fortunate to find that weekend workshop.

Michael
00:32:29
You know, there are lots and lots of resources to help, to help.

Michael
00:32:35
And again, you don't have to wait like I did until, you know, I was 50 years old.

Michael
00:32:39
You could do it much younger, where you can really look inside and return to yourself.

Michael
00:32:45
And when we can, when we do that inner work and you allow yourself to acknowledge the shame, to work with the shame, to realize what motivates it, that's when you sort of move into the next step, which is more of an acceptance, and you realize that just being you exactly as you are is enough, and it's perfect.

Michael
00:33:11
And that's when, again, you learn to control the shame versus it controlling you.

Host
00:33:17
Right.

Michael
00:33:17
Yeah.

Michael
00:33:18
Because I'm not going to say that the shame doesn't still pop up for me, because it does.

Michael
00:33:22
You know, I still can be that little boy on the playground with people calling me fat and stupid and a sissy, and I can hear it, and I can go right back to it.

Michael
00:33:30
Almost like I could see the clothes I was wearing.

Michael
00:33:33
Now I can quickly march in and go, that is not your truth.

Michael
00:33:38
You do not have to hold this any longer.

Host
00:33:41
That's right.

Host
00:33:44
Yeah.

Michael
00:33:44
So that's a little bit about the stages.

Michael
00:33:46
There's lots more.

Michael
00:33:47
But, you know, the.

Michael
00:33:49
The.

Michael
00:33:49
The shame part is.

Michael
00:33:50
Is huge.

Host
00:33:52
Well, it is.

Host
00:33:53
It's such a huge part that I think it's important, you know, anytime we have a chance to discuss it, talk about it.

Host
00:34:01
Right.

Host
00:34:01
Bring it out into the light.

Michael
00:34:03
And I'm gonna say that.

Michael
00:34:04
Bring it to the light, please.

Michael
00:34:05
Bring it to the light.

Michael
00:34:06
Even if you're.

Michael
00:34:07
You're talking to, you know, if you're a parent talking to a child who's coming out and you want to be supportive.

Michael
00:34:13
Supportive, like just acknowledge it, you know, not in a shameful way, but just acknowledge the feelings that could potentially, and I underline that be there that are associated to how they are navigating their life currently.

Host
00:34:31
Right, right, Exactly.

Host
00:34:36
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:34:37
Thank you for sharing that.

Host
00:34:38
I really appreciate it.

Host
00:34:41
You had mentioned a little bit ago your kind of your.

Host
00:34:45
Your secret sauce for your coaching program or the coaching that you do is the acronym fly.

Host
00:34:53
And I'd love to talk about that a little bit before we wrap up today, because I think that's so cool and I love that you.

Host
00:35:01
That is such a key, very key piece of being able to really step into your life.

Host
00:35:09
So.

Michael
00:35:09
Yes.

Michael
00:35:11
Yeah.

Michael
00:35:12
So I use the acronym fly Fly.

Michael
00:35:14
You know, first love.

Michael
00:35:15
And oftentimes, like at the end of a reel or in my email, weekly email, you know, I'll always say, remember, you have wings to fly.

Michael
00:35:23
First love yourself.

Michael
00:35:25
Because when I realized, because this was a big thing for me, to have, a person who I needed to learn to love was me.

Michael
00:35:32
And I did not love me because the world didn't love me in my mind.

Michael
00:35:40
So when people tried to love me, I couldn't be loved.

Host
00:35:44
No.

Michael
00:35:45
Because I didn't even understand what it was.

Michael
00:35:47
So after I went inside, the person I fell in love with the most was really me.

Michael
00:35:52
And then I was able to see everything different and navigate life completely different.

Michael
00:35:57
You know, I was able to love and accept myself completely.

Michael
00:36:01
And I always say, exactly as you are.

Host
00:36:05
Yes.

Michael
00:36:05
No matter what it looks like, it's right and perfect.

Michael
00:36:10
So when you could first love yourself, then you are in a position also to love other people.

Michael
00:36:18
And I don't mean just romantic love.

Michael
00:36:19
I'm just talking about love life in general.

Michael
00:36:22
Be there to support people living from a place of love versus a place of fear was the big game changer for me in my life.

Host
00:36:33
I love that.

Host
00:36:34
That is wonderful.

Host
00:36:37
Before we wrap up, I would love if you could offer either words of advice or words of wisdom to either a young person coming out or the parent of a young person coming out, or both.

Michael
00:36:54
Sure, I would love to.

Michael
00:36:55
So, of course, first love yourself.

Michael
00:36:57
Can't forget that one.

Host
00:36:59
Exactly.

Michael
00:37:00
For, you know, for those who are in that space of if I come out, then what happens?

Michael
00:37:07
You know, Find your.

Michael
00:37:10
Find your safe harbor.

Michael
00:37:11
There is someone out there who is your safe harbor.

Michael
00:37:15
You may not even know who they are, but they're out there.

Michael
00:37:18
And the.

Michael
00:37:19
And allow yourself to start there and allow your voice to sort of practice to be there to allow yourself to say, this is who I am.

Host
00:37:35
Right.

Michael
00:37:36
It doesn't have to be necessarily run out and swing the doors open of whatever or raise the biggest flag or whatever it needs to be.

Michael
00:37:45
Do it in your way and do it in a way that you feel safe, even if it takes a long time.

Michael
00:37:54
It doesn't have to be an overnight thing, but give yourself the opportunity to find your inner strength first.

Michael
00:38:04
Go inside.

Michael
00:38:05
If you need to meditate or journal or whatever.

Michael
00:38:09
Go out in nature, you know, and just find a space within yourself that can give you enough courage.

Michael
00:38:17
And then find that safe harbor to have that conversation.

Michael
00:38:20
There's so many organizations in the United States, so many places where people are there to support you.

Michael
00:38:25
If you don't have a loving space within your family dynamic, and even with your family, it doesn't have to be this, let's sit everyone down, you know, like, do it as you feel it's necessary.

Michael
00:38:36
Yes.

Michael
00:38:37
So that you're safe.

Michael
00:38:39
And then on the flip side of that, if you're a parent, you know, just hold space.

Michael
00:38:45
Even if you are really wrestling with it inside, just hold space for the news.

Michael
00:38:55
And even if you need to take a pause by just saying, you know, thank you for that, you know, I love you and it might not be that easy, but, you know, thank you for that.

Michael
00:39:06
Just give me a couple of minutes to process this or, you know, realize as a parent, this person, this child has known this for a long time.

Michael
00:39:17
And I know Heather talks about this in her coming up because I listened to them all.

Michael
00:39:23
You don't necessarily, you may have an inkling, you know, my mother said I always knew.

Michael
00:39:28
Well, I wish you would have said something.

Host
00:39:30
You know, it would have been helpful.

Host
00:39:33
Yeah.

Michael
00:39:34
So that's what I'm saying.

Michael
00:39:36
If you get that opportunity and you, and, and, and, and your child is coming to you, just being a space to listen and just to be there.

Michael
00:39:45
Don't feel like you need to fix anything, ask questions.

Michael
00:39:49
You don't need to also even say, I'm okay with this because it's not about you being okay with it, it's about them being okay with it.

Michael
00:39:57
It, you know, just be in a space of whatever you need to do to let them know that you are there.

Host
00:40:04
Yes.

Michael
00:40:05
Yes.

Host
00:40:06
Thank you.

Host
00:40:07
I love that answer.

Michael
00:40:09
Even that was a long one.

Michael
00:40:11
That's okay.

Host
00:40:12
No, as well, it was, it was filled with very important, all very important pieces of information.

Host
00:40:20
So thank you.

Host
00:40:21
Thank you.

Host
00:40:22
And I think also pieces of information that bear repeating often.

Host
00:40:28
So I do appreciate each one of those things you shared.

Host
00:40:33
Before we wrap up, is there anything that you would like to add or share or just say?

Host
00:40:40
In fact, I would love for you to let people know exactly where they could find you.

Host
00:40:45
I mean, I'll have it all in the show notes as well, but at the very least let people know that.

Michael
00:40:50
Yeah, that would be great.

Michael
00:40:52
I would, you know, Certainly my website, michaelmamina.com on there, I highly recommend you get my ebook, which is really like, it's five, five minute steps to the life you desire, not just for adults.

Michael
00:41:05
It can also be great for teens as well.

Michael
00:41:07
You can find Me on Instagram, on Michael Momina, same thing.

Michael
00:41:11
Facebook.

Michael
00:41:11
And I have now done the TikTok world.

Michael
00:41:15
So you can find me in the TikTok world, fumbling all over the place.

Michael
00:41:22
Ichael Mamina.

Michael
00:41:23
Or it says coach Michael.

Michael
00:41:25
Michael Mamina.

Michael
00:41:26
You know, just exploring that world too.

Michael
00:41:28
So.

Michael
00:41:29
But if you go to my website, that's really the best place you can receive a weekly email.

Michael
00:41:34
I'm just.

Michael
00:41:35
This was just beautiful.

Michael
00:41:37
Thank you for giving me the space to actually let my story be heard and seen as well.

Michael
00:41:44
You know, again, I would just say my.

Michael
00:41:47
My final thoughts are everyone, not just people within the LGBTQ community should really learn to fly and love themselves, but most importantly, live their life authentically exactly as they are.

Michael
00:42:07
And if you cannot do that, reach out.

Michael
00:42:11
There are so many resources out there to support.

Michael
00:42:15
You know, I don't believe for a minute we were put on this planet to do it alone.

Michael
00:42:20
So it, you know, if you don't do it, ask yourself why you don't do it and then go do it.

Michael
00:42:27
You know, like, you know, so find what you need to get the best life you possibly can.

Michael
00:42:35
And it's never too late and it's never too soon.

Host
00:42:39
Thank you.

Michael
00:42:40
Thank you.

Michael
00:42:41
Thank you so much.

Heather Hester
00:42:43
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:42:46
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

Heather Hester
00:42:51
For a rating or a review.

Heather Hester
00:42:54
Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:43:06
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:43:12
And remember to just breathe until next time.