#105 | Why Silence Is Deadly: What Allies Must Do NOW to Protect LGBTQ Youth from Suicide

Heather Hester
00:00:05
Welcome to Just Breathe.

Heather Hester
00:00:06
I am so happy you are here today.

Heather Hester
00:00:09
Today's topic is one that is definitely more serious, one that is vitally, vitally important, especially for those of us with LGBTQ+KIDS.

Heather Hester
00:00:25
Today, we are going to be talking about suicide prevention.

Heather Hester
00:00:29
September is National Suicide Prevention Month, and I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories.

Heather Hester
00:00:44
According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year.

Heather Hester
00:00:54
And we know that that number has gone up from the 2022 national survey that they did.

Heather Hester
00:01:01
We know, we understand why the numbers are the way that they are.

Heather Hester
00:01:07
And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really, really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity.

Heather Hester
00:01:26
They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self harm, greater mental health struggles because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received perhaps their entire lives.

Heather Hester
00:01:51
So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me.

Heather Hester
00:01:56
I think it is something that is so important that we talk about, that we learn about, that we learn how to talk about with our kids.

Heather Hester
00:02:06
And that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do.

Heather Hester
00:02:11
I am absolutely, so delighted to have Anne Moss Rogers on the show today.

Heather Hester
00:02:19
She is a mental health and suicide education expert, a professional speaker, trainer and consultant.

Heather Hester
00:02:27
She talks about this subject because after her 20 year old son Charles died by suicide in 2015, she chronicled her family's tragedy and a local newspaper article and that went viral and her blog.

Heather Hester
00:02:44
Her subsequent blog, which is called Emotionally Naked, has reached millions of people.

Heather Hester
00:02:51
She is the author of an award winning memoir called Diary of a Broken Mind and the bestseller Emotionally Naked, A Teacher's Guide to Preventing suicide and Recognizing students at Risk.

Heather Hester
00:03:04
With her co writer, Dr.

Heather Hester
00:03:06
Kimberly O'Brien, she has been a TEDx speaker, was featured in the New York Times Variety magazine, and was the first non clinician invited to speak on youth suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health.

Heather Hester
00:03:22
So without further ado, I am so, so happy to bring you my conversation with Ann Moss.

Heather Hester
00:03:41
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:03:54
My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

Heather Hester
00:03:59
I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:04:09
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey.

Heather Hester
00:04:20
I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:04:26
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:04:43
Ann Moss, I am so happy that you are here with us today and I'm really looking forward to having this very, very important conversation and really learning from you because you have a not only incredible life experience, but you have really thrown yourself into learning all you possibly can and then educating others on that.

Heather Hester
00:05:10
So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and are here to share with us today.

Heather Hester
00:05:18
Thank you so much.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:05:20
Well, thank you for having the guts to have not only one, but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Heather Hester
00:05:36
Oh my goodness, yes.

Heather Hester
00:05:38
The more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case and unfortunately right now, particularly the case.

Heather Hester
00:05:48
So this work is so, so very important in conversation, is very important.

Heather Hester
00:05:54
I'd like to kind of start maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:06:09
So I started out my professional career in advertising and marketing and as I raised my children, I was freelancing as a copywriter, basically doing advertising and marketing and digital marketing starting in 1995.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:06:30
That early.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:06:32
And then I owned a digital marketing firm and my son was struggling as I was owning this firm and I was trying to juggle my professional life with, you know, what was going on in my family.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:06:51
So he started in middle school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:06:55
I just got the feeling, talking to his fifth grade teacher, that we need to do private middle school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:02
And I'm really glad we did that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:05
Once we got to high school, there weren't as many choices because he had a sleep disorder.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:14
And I would have preferred to do a small private school, but all of them started at like 7:30.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:23
And for a child with a sleep disorder, that wasn't good because most of the ones were at least 30 minutes away.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:30
So I'd have to get him up even earlier.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:33
Yes, the public school was the only place who would accommodate his schedule where he could come in later so that he could get more sleep.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:45
And so that's what we went with.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:47
And I don't think it was the best choice for Charles, but I'm not sure what other choices we had at the time.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:07:56
So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest, most popular kid in school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:06
This is pretty rare for a sophomore.

Heather Hester
00:08:09
Yeah.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:11
And I remember what a great day that was because my older son was also chosen to be on the court, and he actually won.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:19
And I remember they got this picture of me being totally shocked because my older child, strong introvert, but he'd really kind of come out that year.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:29
And in turn, and when I say come out, he'd come out of his shell because he was an introvert.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:36
And my younger son Charles, you know, just laughed across the field, he's being escorted by his favorite teacher.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:45
And I know people looking down on that field that day at my family thought, wow, you know, they really got it made.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:08:53
And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance mis use, which had really started to escalate and really, really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:15
And I didn't know why he was doing drugs and alcohol.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:20
And later, from reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:30
And to him, he thought, well, isn't it a lot better that I'm doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing myself?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:39
You know, he's a teenager.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:40
He's not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead to.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:46
He's just thinking in the moment.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:48
And what happens when they do that is they, you know, are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:09:57
He ends up being, you know, we're going to see a counselor because I don't know what to do, and I don't know what's what.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:05
I don't know what he's struggling with.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:07
And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:12
We're not getting a lot of help from the school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:16
I mean, I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:21
And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that he ends up.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:30
The counselor ends up recommended that we kidnap our son out of his bed and have him sent to wilderness program.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:39
And I know you've been there, right?

Heather Hester
00:10:41
Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:43
And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:48
And so that was the good part.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:50
And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:10:57
You know, he's funniest, most popular kid in school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:01
He seemed to relish in love life and a constant revolving door of friends.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:07
And it was really hard to Understand?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:10
But I accepted it.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:13
And then he was diagnosed with adhd, combined type anxiety, and cannabis dependence because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:27
And he, you know, said it was natural and blah, blah, blah.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:31
But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:36
It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:40
And it definitely.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:42
It.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:42
It wasn't trolls with destination drug.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:11:45
He would end up becoming addicted to heroin eventually, but he didn't end up becoming addicted to it until he went to therapy, boarding school, and it wasn't until he returned in 2014, which was kind of the height of the heroin epidemic, and he kind of got caught up in that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:09
And he would eventually confess.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:11
He would do all the things, the detox, the rehab, and he would go to a recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:22
It was their protocol to take him back to detox.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:28
All he had to do was three days and he could come back to the recovery house.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:34
But he saw a friend there, and they walked out together.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:37
And for two weeks, I don't know where he is.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:40
Is he under a bridge?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:42
Is he, you know, staying with friends?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:46
And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:53
Here's the thing.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:12:55
I also didn't call him a lie.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:02
And I still kind of wonder why I didn't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:05
And I think it was fear or, you know, I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of bs, I'm going to tell you that right now.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:16
I wish I'd called him every day and said, as much as I want you to get well, I love you, even if you don't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:23
But.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:24
But I didn't do that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:25
I did tell him I loved him, and I did text him, and I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:32
And it was on June 5, 2015, when my husband and I are sitting in the back of a police car in a parking lot.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:41
They had called us to say, we want to meet with you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:47
And they delivered the worst news of our lives and told us our son had been found dead.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:52
And I remember thinking, it's got to be overdose, right?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:13:57
I mean, he'd been addicted to heroin.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:00
And when my husband said, how did he die?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:03
And the policeman said it was a suicide, I couldn't even breathe.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:09
I mean, my husband is having this explosion in the front seat, and I'm just.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:17
I've forgotten how to breathe.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:19
And it was like this extra twist of the knife, and it was like, doesn't he know we love him?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:27
I just didn't understand why suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:30
And it would just be a really long time before I would.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:34
I was.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:36
That intent piece makes the grief process so much harder.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:43
And you feel like, how did I miss pain and hurt so monumental.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:49
And, you know, I really.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:51
I beat myself up for years over that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:14:57
But then I sold my digital marketing business and I started doing this full time because I wasn't finding the reward in the other things I was doing, and I was finding healing by putting my grief into action.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:15:15
So that's why I do what I do today.

Heather Hester
00:15:26
I just need to take a moment, and I want everybody to take a moment because that.

Heather Hester
00:15:34
And I want to honor.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:15:40
Who'S my baby.

Heather Hester
00:15:44
The worst imaginable thing.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:15:48
And, I mean, I thought I took all those steps.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:15:51
I thought, this is going to insulate me.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:15:56
And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in the absolute ugliest way possible.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:16:05
I mean, I couldn't even imagine a scenario so awful and a journey to healing so absolutely and utterly painful is that once.

Heather Hester
00:16:22
I just.

Heather Hester
00:16:23
I cannot even begin to imagine.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:16:27
And.

Heather Hester
00:16:31
I am just so deeply sorry.

Heather Hester
00:16:34
I know that there are so many of us who, in different ways, can empathize with different pieces of your story, for sure.

Heather Hester
00:16:45
And every parent.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:16:48
Right, Right.

Heather Hester
00:16:50
Every single parent.

Heather Hester
00:16:52
It is the worst, worst imaginable thing.

Heather Hester
00:16:58
And.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:16:59
But I'm here today because I know that Youth who are LGBTQ + are at higher risk.

Heather Hester
00:17:09
Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:17:10
I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through, but we need to put in place and we need to be more.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:17:21
We need to be more aware with this group, because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance, no matter how accepting you are in the family, the rest of the world isn't always complying with that.

Heather Hester
00:17:38
Correct?

Heather Hester
00:17:40
Correct.

Heather Hester
00:17:41
So what are.

Heather Hester
00:17:43
There's a lot of different questions here and a lot of different pieces to this that I want to make sure that we talk about.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:17:54
First.

Heather Hester
00:17:55
I like that you just now touched on or began to say, I think where you were going, which is the fact that, yes, our LGBTQ plus kids are more at risk.

Heather Hester
00:18:08
They are not at risk because they are LGBTQ plus.

Heather Hester
00:18:13
They are at risk because of what's coming at them externally, the messaging that they've fed all of these years.

Heather Hester
00:18:22
So before.

Heather Hester
00:18:23
And we talk about this a lot here, like, before they even come out, they already have all of this messaging spinning in their heads.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:18:31
Sure.

Heather Hester
00:18:32
So what can we do?

Heather Hester
00:18:36
What is.

Heather Hester
00:18:37
What are some of the steps or what are the steps that you kind of like to share about how to recognize this, what words, what should we say to our kids?

Heather Hester
00:18:50
What kind of conversations should we be having?

Heather Hester
00:18:56
How can we as parents be more vulnerable or share, you know, share different things?

Heather Hester
00:19:06
And I heard that, you know, at several points in your story that, and I think that's something that, you know, it often does take some kind of crisis for us to learn that being vulnerable and sharing what we're thinking, what we're feeling with our kids is so vitally important, more important than we will ever know.

Heather Hester
00:19:32
So kind of going back, what are the steps that you would say?

Heather Hester
00:19:39
Like this is what to look for, this is what you need to do.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:19:44
So I think we look for kids who are isolating more.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:19:49
Especially it's natural for them to kind of pull away from you, their parent at this age, and to align more with their peers.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:19:58
But when they're pulling away from you and their peers and they're isolating alone in a room, that's a red flag.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:09
Self deprecating remarks.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:11
Nobody likes me.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:13
Everyone hates me.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:14
I'm so stupid.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:16
We need to start to ask more questions.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:19
Say, what makes you say that?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:22
I'd love to know.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:24
And remember, when you ask questions, to ask with curiosity, not shame, not I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm going to set you straight.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:35
You're listening and you want that person to feel heard.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:40
Which means not offering solutions, but just asking more questions.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:47
So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:54
Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:20:58
Charles did that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:21:00
So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more, they go to the ER more.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:21:06
Those kids are often at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:21:08
So if you know your school nurse by first name, it can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:21:19
But it's not the only thing.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:15
It's kind of the combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together all at once.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:22
Are they falling asleep a lot in class?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:24
That means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night, behaving recklessly and taking chances.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:34
You know, you've talked about drugs and alcohol and they're popping every pill they can find because they don't care if they're going to die.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:43
I think we really need to look out for those things.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:47
And what they say, I'm so worthless.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:51
I'm such a burden.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:52
I can't do this anymore.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:53
Now a lot of people think suicide is selfish.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:57
It's not.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:22:58
It is really about feeling despair and feeling like you're so worthless if you were gone, no one would care.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:07
But I want everyone here to know that that continuum, or the time they're in a suicidal episode is a limited amount of time.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:18
And 20 minutes is about average.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:21
And it goes kind of like up and down.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:25
And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:34
So they're always ambivalent on some level.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:37
And the really, really intense feelings of, I want to die, and I want to die now to stop this pain, those last 60 to 90 seconds, within that 20 minute or so, continuing.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:52
And it can be shorter and it can be longer, but that's just an example, okay?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:23:58
And so I want people to know they come out of it.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:02
So let's say they've taken some over the counter medication and they are at risk, by the way, taking too much Tylenol or whatever they took.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:15
They may come tell you, and you're wondering, well, if they were trying to kill themselves, why are they telling me now?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:22
That's because they've come out of that suicidal process and they're like, I don't want to die anymore.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:29
In that moment, they did.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:31
And then that changes, right?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:34
So that's the sort of basic overview.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:38
And if you've been hearing your child say any of this, it's time to say, you know, I was listening to this podcast episode today, and the woman was talking about her son who died.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:24:52
And if a child says these phrases, then we need to ask the question, are you thinking of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:01
Because if you want to know if someone is thinking suicide, you have to ask directly.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:08
What you will typically see on someone's face is relief because they've been wanting to tell you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:18
And that's what people don't understand, is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide want desperately to tell you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:26
They find me online and I've had conversations with people with kids for two years, and they'll sometimes they get around to telling somebody within two days, and sometimes it takes them two years, right?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:45
But they really want to tell, and they struggle with telling you because they worry about how you'll accept it and how you'll react.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:25:57
First thing, do not panic.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:00
Whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from, you've been these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:08
You know better than to panic.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:10
Take that deep breath, right?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:14
And just start asking questions.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:17
How long have you felt this way?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:19
Tell me more about how you feel, if any.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:23
I think it's really important Maybe not at this sitting, you know, if you're actually, your child's in suicidal ideation, but later on you want, you want to have the conversation of being more vulnerable, you know, being more vulnerable yourself and sharing with them what your fears are for them.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:26:49
You know, when, when you told me that, all I could think about was how much I miss you and how much I love you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:00
But at that moment I needed to be there for you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:04
I'm not handling this well right now.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:06
I'm kind of freaking out and wanting to text you and call you constantly and that's not going to help either one of us.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:16
So I'm joining the support group or discussion group so I can get support and not do that because it's not effective.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:29
And then you can come up, ask them, well, I want to ask you every day, are you thinking of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:35
But if we could come up with a code phrase, you know, my toenails are blue, you know, whatever you want.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:43
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:44
And give them that agency to come up with the funny phrase.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:48
You know, you're not going to want me to ask that every day, but we need to agree that this, that's what this phrase means.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:27:58
And it's just a way of us to communicate and for you to bring down my anxiety about this, which I'm asking your help.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:08
So when you do that, you're saying you're important to me.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:13
I need your help for my anxiety.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:18
And just your presence and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs will help make that happen.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:27
So you're making them a part of that process.

Heather Hester
00:28:33
I, that's great.

Heather Hester
00:28:35
I really, really love that.

Heather Hester
00:28:37
So many different pieces there that are so actionable and so easy to do because I think when we think, when we think about this it seems very.

Heather Hester
00:28:49
Just big and it does.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:52
And scary and you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:53
And you think, I can't fix this.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:28:56
And I want all your listeners to know you cannot, you cannot fix this for them.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:03
You can be there to support them, you can be there to love them, but it's okay not to have all the answers.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:13
It's okay to say, I don't even know what to do yet.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:17
Let's text 741741 or the Trevor text line.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:23
Let's do that together.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:26
Or call the Trevor hotline together and let's see what they suggest for next steps.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:36
As parents, we often want to come out is knowing it all and I think we need to reveal our vulnerability that we don't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:29:47
But we're willing to learn along with them, right?

Heather Hester
00:30:48
Absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:30:50
Well, and I think that when they realize, you know, that helps them realize our humanity.

Heather Hester
00:30:57
Right.

Heather Hester
00:30:57
We're not on that pedestal of the parent.

Heather Hester
00:31:00
Right.

Heather Hester
00:31:01
All of a sudden that brings us down to like, oh, they're human too.

Heather Hester
00:31:05
And oh, they're, they're feeling this.

Heather Hester
00:31:09
Right.

Heather Hester
00:31:09
Like their feelings are similar to my feelings and I can communicate with them, which I is.

Heather Hester
00:31:20
I think such is a, it is a game changer in as far as relationship with your child, specifically your teenager.

Heather Hester
00:31:30
I do love that you brought up the Trevor project and any of these hotlines which will all be in the show notes for you all.

Heather Hester
00:31:40
But again, I think that is such a great initial go to because I think there is that moment where you're sitting in this and the two of you are communicating and you're thinking it is such a natural thing for a parent to be like, I just want to fix.

Heather Hester
00:31:59
Right.

Heather Hester
00:32:00
And I want to help and I want to do.

Heather Hester
00:32:02
And, and this is something that you can do and offer to do it with your child.

Heather Hester
00:32:09
Which I love that you said that too, because that takes kind of that I'm alone piece and it's scary.

Heather Hester
00:32:15
Right, Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:17
And you're so, you're showing partnership.

Heather Hester
00:32:20
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:21
You know, I'm let, let's figure this out.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:25
Plus you're giving them agency.

Heather Hester
00:32:28
Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:28
Which is so important for their future mental health.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:31
And I want to also add, there's the trans lifeline too.

Heather Hester
00:32:34
Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:34
So if you've got a trans child, you definitely want to read because they're the people who understand.

Heather Hester
00:32:41
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:32:42
And you're going to get somebody on the line who's been through this and they understand this and that's what you really need.

Heather Hester
00:32:50
Absolutely, absolutely.

Heather Hester
00:32:52
And they're, they are going to be able to not only listen in the best way, but share the most helpful information they are and direct you where perhaps you need to go next or.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:33:09
You know what, the friendly, friendly resources.

Heather Hester
00:33:13
Exactly, exactly.

Heather Hester
00:33:16
I'm curious your thoughts on this.

Heather Hester
00:33:19
A while back I spoke with someone who also works in, in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation or when they are in that moment.

Heather Hester
00:33:40
Right.

Heather Hester
00:33:40
And thank you for breaking that down so clearly that if you ask the question, why would you want to stay here?

Heather Hester
00:33:51
Why do.

Heather Hester
00:33:52
Why do you want to stay here?

Heather Hester
00:33:55
And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here, that, that does something in the brain and I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:10
So at the point where they're in ideation, they're so fixated with their tunnel vision.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:19
You can ask that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:20
It's okay to ask that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:22
But understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer, and most likely it's going to be, I'm worthless.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:31
There are no reasons to stay here because emotionally, they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that.

Heather Hester
00:34:41
Sure.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:41
However, most of the time, we are not in suicidal ideation.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:46
And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:55
What are your reasons for living?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:34:58
And they write it down in their own handwriting.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:02
And this has.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:03
It's called the crisis response plan.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:06
And it's Dr.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:07
Craig Bryant.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:08
He gets credit for this.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:09
And the numbers and success rates are incredible.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:13
And I think everyone should have this index card.

Heather Hester
00:35:16
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:17
What is so crucial about it is what are the things that make that make life worth living?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:24
And what along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel, and my fan.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:32
You know, it might be my football, might be my dog, but you also want them to also think of a past memory to also.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:44
And just a couple of clues on that card to sort of trigger that memory to mine.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:35:50
I've got on my card Vienna, because I had dinner one night in a castle, Indiana, and I was invited to this dinner, and it was through my husband's business.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:03
We had no idea what.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:04
And it was so lavish.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:08
It was so fabulous.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:10
We were sitting in this table, and I've never laughed so hard my whole night.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:16
And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty, because we were laughing so hard.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:23
And we clearly just had the magic that night.

Heather Hester
00:36:26
Oh, my gosh.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:28
And so that's all I have to remember.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:31
And then I'm back in a happy place.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:35
So writing down little things that trigger a memory, one dad had put on his card.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:42
Remember how good Angela was during my cancer treatment?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:36:47
And how his daughter had nursed him the whole time through his cancer treatment and gotten him newspapers and read him stories, and now he's feeling suicidal, and that was his way of kind of resetting his own brain.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:05
If you ask them to take out that card when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:17
And that is a more effective strategy because for them to come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

Heather Hester
00:37:28
Right.

Heather Hester
00:37:29
That makes sense.

Heather Hester
00:37:30
Just because you're in that crisis.

Heather Hester
00:37:32
Fight or flight, right?

Heather Hester
00:37:33
Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:35
So I want to finish the rest of what goes on that card.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:39
So you've got your reasons for living, and then you have people that you reach out to, and those are your trusted adults.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:48
So maybe it is your school counselor because she's been super supportive.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:53
But not just your parents, other trusted adults.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:37:58
You want to write down the crisis lines you'd reach out to with this, you know, group.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:05
It would be some of those Trevor project.

Heather Hester
00:38:08
Yeah.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:09
Lifelines.

Heather Hester
00:38:10
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:11
Maybe you put down a warm line.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:15
Almost every state has a warm line.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:17
And when you're struggling, that's a good place to call.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:22
So you want them to think ahead of time.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:25
What is my plan?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:27
Because when you are in that moment, and that's why they train people in the army, because when they're in that emotional fight or flight, I'm going to be killed in battle.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:38
What kicks in their training?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:41
Fix it.

Heather Hester
00:38:42
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:43
And if they've written it in their own handwriting, then it's so much more effective.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:48
So those are the basics.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:50
Some people like to add.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:52
What are the emotional feelings that trigger my thoughts of suicide?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:38:59
But that gets a little complicated.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:01
So I want to just kind of keep it.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:03
What are the things that make life worth living?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:06
Who would you reach out to?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:07
And what are the numbers that you would call.

Heather Hester
00:39:11
Love that.

Heather Hester
00:39:12
That is incredible.

Heather Hester
00:39:14
Tell me again who you credited this to.

Heather Hester
00:39:16
Somebody who did.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:17
Who was Dr.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:18
Craig Bryan.

Heather Hester
00:39:20
Okay.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:21
And it's called the Crisis Response Plan crp.

Heather Hester
00:39:27
Okay.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:28
So basically I've let him know I kind of adapted this and you know, I'm just doing a little crisis plan now.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:37
It's not done.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:38
Like he does this whole training and I'm not doing every aspect of his training.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:45
I'm just getting kids in a five or ten minute moment, right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:50
To fill out an index card and put.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:53
What is the most effective part, which his study says are those reasons to live.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:39:59
He said, so many people, when I did this index card, and I would see them years later, they'd pull out some worn piece of paper, you know, and he go.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:40:11
And they would say, these reasons for living have what kept me alive in difficult times.

Heather Hester
00:40:19
This is incredible.

Heather Hester
00:40:20
I mean, this is something that truthfully, we all should.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:40:23
We all need it.

Heather Hester
00:40:25
I'm sitting here thinking like, this is going to be a family activity, right?

Heather Hester
00:40:31
This is something.

Heather Hester
00:40:32
It is that important.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:40:34
I'm gonna do this on a college campus this month.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:40:39
And it's mandatory for the freshmen to.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:40:43
It'll be 1800 students and we're going to do this card.

Heather Hester
00:40:47
That is awesome.

Heather Hester
00:40:49
I mean, that is awesome.

Heather Hester
00:40:53
This is really, really incredible.

Heather Hester
00:40:56
I think even, you know, more so than perhaps we even realize.

Heather Hester
00:41:01
I'm just thinking like the, the massive effect that this could have.

Heather Hester
00:41:05
And I'm so grateful to you for sharing it.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:41:08
Oh, you're welcome.

Heather Hester
00:41:10
I.

Heather Hester
00:41:11
One more thing that I just really wanted.

Heather Hester
00:41:13
We're kind of going to jump a topic here really quickly because I know we're.

Heather Hester
00:41:18
And looking at our time here, but we had talked a little bit before we started about how to advocate for our children.

Heather Hester
00:41:29
So, you know, there are many reasons that adolescents, teenagers can find themselves in bullying situations or difficult situations at school, later on being out in the LGBTQ community.

Heather Hester
00:41:46
So as parents, when we are advocating, whether it's in the school or, you know, on a sports team or in the community, what advice do you have for parents in approaching that?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:02
I think before you go, you gotta have that pep talk of, I am not going to jump into an emotional tsunami here.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:12
I am going to approach this topic in a way.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:17
So think about your audience.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:20
Think about what their issues are.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:23
You know, have they been sort of anti lgbtq because you want to get the most to your child that you can't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:32
You're not going to convert this person overnight.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:35
Right?

Heather Hester
00:42:36
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:37
If that's the situation you're walking into.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:40
So think about the situation you're walking into and have a plan and sort of make it a game.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:47
What is the most I can get from my child, despite the fact that they may be against this or think it's against their religion?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:42:57
So, for example, when I do trainings, the first time I did a role play between a teacher and LGBTQ student, three people walked out.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:10
And I thought, well, I guess I just need to toss that role play.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:13
And then I was like, no, I don't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:16
That's not right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:17
These kids are at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:19
I'm all about saving lives.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:21
So I had to figure out a way to accommodate those that thought this was wrong.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:29
I had to take out my own belief system and my own emotions related to this.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:35
Instead of getting mad going, my kid died from this.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:39
You know, I had to just divorce all that and say, do you really want a child to die?

Heather Hester
00:43:45
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:46
But, you know, any child, and, you know, if any child does by suicide, it puts everyone else at risk.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:43:55
If it's a sports team or a grade level or a whole school.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:00
School, nobody wants that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:03
You know, nobody wants to deal with grieving students and negative press.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:08
And so you got to sort of make that plan of going in so you reach your goal, understanding that you may not get everything you want, but you just want your foot in the door.

Heather Hester
00:44:25
Right.

Heather Hester
00:44:27
So as much as you may want to be, you know, the Mama Bear LGBTQ+ Advocate, you may have to temper that a bit.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:37
Right.

Heather Hester
00:44:38
And shift that to, I am going to appeal to this person's humanity.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:45
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:46
You have to understand them.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:44:48
Like when I go into rural communities and I talk about access to firearms, if I go in telling them they need to put their bullets in a warehouse three miles away from their house, do you think they're going to do that?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:02
I mean, it's a firearm owning community.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:04
They're big hunters.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:05
No way.

Heather Hester
00:45:06
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:07
I have to appeal to their humanity.

Heather Hester
00:45:09
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:10
I tell them rural communities are known for being there for their neighbor.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:16
Would you not want to be there for your neighbor when they're going.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:19
Going through a hard time?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:21
And that may involve changing the code on their gun safe until they're in a better place with their agreement.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:31
And you make this agreement ahead of time and you do this for each other, showing discretion.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:38
You don't have to announce it to the whole community.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:42
But having that kind of thought process before you go and you want to go in with guns blazing and a sword lifted and I'm, you know, I'm gonna show them what is the first thing that happens.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:56
They dig their heels in.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:45:57
There's no way.

Heather Hester
00:45:59
Right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:00
I could give them anything.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:01
Yep.

Heather Hester
00:46:02
They shut down or walk out.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:04
Yep.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:05
That is not your goal.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:07
Your goal is just, it's an inch by inch process.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:12
And so you have to appeal to them.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:15
Like you said on, on a human, on a human level.

Heather Hester
00:46:21
Oh my goodness, absolutely.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:22
What is the Christian thing to do here?

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:25
You know, if.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:26
And defining Christianity is, you know, some.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:34
Something that means that you don't want other people to die and you want to be there for each other, you know, no matter what.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:43
And I think it's really important.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:46:49
Like when kids are in ideation a lot of times people will think, well, that's the time to tell them that this is wrong and you know, try to convert them and like, no, no, please don't do that.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:03
Please don't.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:04
Yes.

Heather Hester
00:47:05
Yeah.

Heather Hester
00:47:07
Oh, goodness gracious, no.

Heather Hester
00:47:10
And maybe not ever, but hopefully not ever with that language.

Heather Hester
00:47:15
I mean, I think that.

Heather Hester
00:47:16
Yes, goodness gracious.

Heather Hester
00:47:18
And, and recogn.

Heather Hester
00:47:19
You know, I guess in you saying using that specific language, I mean, that kind of is another.

Heather Hester
00:47:25
I think we could probably go off on a whole other tangent here on just fear, because that's what that is.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:31
All, all of it fear based.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:33
And I'm not exactly understanding what they're afraid of.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:38
But they are.

Heather Hester
00:47:41
Yes.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:42
Somehow it unhinges their belief system.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:47:47
But it's like, I don't know that it has anything to do with you.

Heather Hester
00:47:51
Right, exactly.

Heather Hester
00:47:53
Exactly.

Heather Hester
00:47:54
It is difficult, but I think that I Think for us when, you know, understanding that's where the basis is.

Heather Hester
00:48:03
Makes it easier to come in and approach people who are operating from a place of fear and.

Heather Hester
00:48:10
Right, right.

Heather Hester
00:48:11
And knowing how to talk with them and.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:15
Oh, that's so succinctly said.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:17
Thank you.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:19
Thank you for making me sound good.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:21
Oh, that's wonderful.

Heather Hester
00:48:25
You're welcome.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:26
Oh, my goodness.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:48:30
You can give me an hour to cut that out, then I'll just stop.

Heather Hester
00:48:36
Oh, my goodness.

Heather Hester
00:48:37
Well, I would love to give you a few minutes.

Heather Hester
00:48:40
You have done some incredible writing and presenting and you have so many incredible resources available.

Heather Hester
00:48:51
And so I would love for you to share whatever you'd like to share right now.

Heather Hester
00:48:57
And to everyone listening, as always, this will be in the show notes and on my website and all of the places so you will be able to find Anne Moss incredible teaching and thoughts.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:13
So I think the most important page, I think if you go to mental health awareness education or you can Google Anne Moss Rogers, you'll find me click on books.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:26
And on that page you'll see my two published books.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:30
But you'll also there's a link at the top and it says free ebook library.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:35
And you can click on that and it'll talk about 10 Ways to Prevent suicide in our children, ways to recognize depression, and all sorts of really good resources that are free.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:52
All you need to do is put in an email and you can download them.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:49:56
And most of them are about 12 pages.

Heather Hester
00:50:00
That's incredible.

Heather Hester
00:50:01
That is really, really fantastic.

Heather Hester
00:50:03
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Heather Hester
00:50:06
And you have a very cool T shirt that we can all proudly wear.

Heather Hester
00:50:11
That is just listen.

Heather Hester
00:50:14
And I think those are such wise, wise words that if we do nothing else, we hear them and we see them and.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:24
That's right.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:25
Stop suicide with your ears.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:28
Yeah, it's been very popular.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:29
Sure.

Heather Hester
00:50:30
I love that.

Heather Hester
00:50:32
I love that.

Heather Hester
00:50:32
Well, thank you.

Heather Hester
00:50:33
Thank you so much for being here with me today.

Heather Hester
00:50:37
And I know this will have such an incredible impact and just educating and helping, you know, save a life.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:47
Thank you so much.

Anne Moss Rogers
00:50:49
I appreciate your having me today.

Heather Hester
00:50:51
Thank you so much for being here today.

Heather Hester
00:50:55
Wow, that was really, really incredible.

Heather Hester
00:50:58
And I am sure that you gleaned as much from that as I did.

Heather Hester
00:51:04
Just.

Heather Hester
00:51:04
Holy cow.

Heather Hester
00:51:09
I have to say, I'm just.

Heather Hester
00:51:11
I'm still processing and digesting and I'm.

Heather Hester
00:51:15
One of the first things I'm going to be doing is creating an index card with each of my kids, suggesting to them and sharing with them how to do this and doing it for myself and sharing it with Steve as well, so I highly recommend that.

Heather Hester
00:51:31
I think that is an incredible, incredible tool and suggestion.

Heather Hester
00:51:36
Please share this episode with someone that you love, someone you know who could benefit from listening to it, and if you have questions or wish to talk to somebody.

Heather Hester
00:51:48
The Hotlines as well as all of Ann Moss other resources are in the Show Notes as well as on my website.

Heather Hester
00:51:58
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:52:01
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.

Heather Hester
00:52:08
Click on the link in the Show Notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:52:21
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone and remember to just breathe.

Heather Hester
00:52:31
Until next time.