Rebranding with Joy with Annie P Ruggles

WEBVTT
00:00:05.450 --> 00:00:07.375
Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome.
00:00:07.375 --> 00:00:18.048
welcome to the Inclusive Networker podcast, where we make network marketers, small business owners and solopreneurs aware of blind spots that could be keeping their networks and businesses small.
00:00:18.048 --> 00:00:30.268
We give them tips and simple practical tools to make their businesses more inclusive and we teach our listeners how to build inclusive communities that support diverse customers, team members and business partners.
00:00:30.268 --> 00:00:40.027
So if you want to authentically build relationships with diverse communities of customers or business partners, you are in the right place.
00:00:40.027 --> 00:00:43.865
But be warned you will be challenged.
00:00:43.865 --> 00:00:47.093
but here's the thing you won't be judged.
00:00:47.093 --> 00:00:48.725
I'm your host, dr Ramona.
00:00:48.725 --> 00:00:57.689
I'm a speaker, coach, consultant, public health professor, wife, mom and a fierce challenger of broken systems that keep people from reaching their highest potential.
00:00:57.689 --> 00:01:03.072
I'm so excited to be with you on your journey to becoming an inclusive networker.
00:01:03.072 --> 00:01:04.182
Let's jump right in.
00:01:04.182 --> 00:01:16.635
Hey, hey, hey and welcome, welcome, welcome to this week's episode of the Inclusive Networker podcast.
00:01:16.635 --> 00:01:22.471
This is your host, dr Ramona, and who are we calling into conversation today?
00:01:22.471 --> 00:01:28.072
Well, it is Annie P Ruggles, and I am going to introduce you to her.
00:01:28.072 --> 00:01:31.609
This guest y'all is so much fun.
00:01:31.609 --> 00:01:33.206
I cannot wait for you to hear from her.
00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:48.623
So for over a decade, annie P has harnessed her halt like this day for heart sales tech itself promotion and overly competitive sleazeballs as inspiration to help people find better ways to grow their small businesses.
00:01:48.623 --> 00:02:05.712
as founder of the non-leasy sales academy and Quirkworks consulting, she's guided hundreds of people toward making deeper connections, lasting impressions and friendlier, more lucrative transactions and conversations.
00:02:05.712 --> 00:02:14.489
Her pride and joy is her podcast, which I was on recently And when I tell you this was the most fun podcast ever.
00:02:14.489 --> 00:02:18.843
it is called Too Legitimate to Quit Instantly.
00:02:18.843 --> 00:02:24.623
Accidentable Small Business Strategies with a Pop Culture Spin And y'all I talked about.
00:02:24.623 --> 00:02:25.425
love is blind.
00:02:25.485 --> 00:02:25.806
Okay.
00:02:26.841 --> 00:02:30.170
And so I'm very excited to have Annie as my guest.
00:02:30.170 --> 00:02:35.045
She's quirky, she's real, and welcome, annie, i'm so excited to have you.
00:02:36.562 --> 00:02:38.909
Oh, I am freaking thrilled to be here, Dr Ramona.
00:02:38.909 --> 00:02:40.544
Thank you so much for having me.
00:02:43.586 --> 00:02:43.967
All right.
00:02:43.967 --> 00:02:49.350
So you know, i start this thing every time asking this question what's your lens?
00:02:49.350 --> 00:02:50.293
I need to know that.
00:02:50.293 --> 00:02:52.062
How, how does that you know?
00:02:52.062 --> 00:02:57.152
how has it shaped your life, your, your lens, your background, all that stuff?
00:02:57.841 --> 00:03:02.609
Gosh my lens Okay, so I can look at this so many different ways.
00:03:02.609 --> 00:03:05.308
I love how like nuanced this question is, but my lens is.
00:03:05.308 --> 00:03:10.824
I am the only child of two entrepreneurs, now both retired.
00:03:10.824 --> 00:03:14.951
That shifted me, maybe even more than anything else.
00:03:14.951 --> 00:03:19.086
I grew up in a multi-generational household.
00:03:19.086 --> 00:03:20.969
That shifted my lens a ton.
00:03:20.969 --> 00:03:28.794
I am queer but straight presenting because I'm in a hetero marriage.
00:03:29.140 --> 00:03:35.530
I am the grandchild of immigrants, i am white, privileged to the nines.
00:03:35.530 --> 00:03:59.122
I live in Chicago, surrounded by incredible people and beautiful food, and I have been raised that the most important thing you can do is be genuinely kind, and I think the combination of all of those things lead me to be who I am and see how I see and not see what I don't see Yeah.
00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:10.028
So tell me the amount of work that you had to do, or some of the things that you did, to even acknowledge that you're white, privileged to the nines.
00:04:10.028 --> 00:04:12.387
How do you get to that point?
00:04:13.681 --> 00:04:21.942
Oh, God, honestly, I'm going to try not to do white tears right now because it's it's tough and I got to kind of like check it.
00:04:21.942 --> 00:04:29.925
but, like I've always known that I was hashtag blessed, I grew up middle class.
00:04:29.925 --> 00:04:31.887
I grew up with both of my parents.
00:04:31.887 --> 00:04:39.245
I grew up in a predominantly white area of Missouri, So I didn't really see that.
00:04:39.245 --> 00:04:48.531
but I also grew up in the nineties when we had flesh colored crayons and thought we were living in post-racial America, right.
00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:56.694
So a lot of the unlearning I had to do was that racism exists because I was sheltered from it.
00:04:56.694 --> 00:05:02.250
I didn't directly saw it, none of my friends were really experiencing it or felt comfortable talking about it.
00:05:02.250 --> 00:05:07.444
More likely And it when I moved to Chicago.
00:05:07.444 --> 00:05:16.663
St Louis is very segregated and it's not segregated in like a violent way, it just kind of is.
00:05:16.663 --> 00:05:22.225
But then you moved to Chicago and everybody's right on top of everybody, and it was one of the things I loved about moving up here.
00:05:22.225 --> 00:05:31.129
I was like, oh my gosh, and even now I live in what real estate agents in Chicago called the United Nations, because it's every single culture, every single everything.
00:05:31.129 --> 00:05:44.252
But I realized, i started realizing more and more once I moved to Chicago what white privilege was, when I saw what would evoke fear in other people that didn't evoke fear in me.
00:05:44.252 --> 00:06:00.406
And I also could see in real time how, if a friend of color and I walk into a restaurant, even here in Chicago, how we would be treated differently, or in situations where law enforcement would get involved, how we would be treated differently.
00:06:00.406 --> 00:06:04.988
So it started to creep kind of through that.
00:06:04.988 --> 00:06:19.290
And then I had this really life-changing experience in Cabrini Green, and for those of you who don't know Chicago history, cabrini Green was basically a war zone, which is now like fancy million dollar loss.
00:06:19.290 --> 00:06:25.411
But it used to be a housing project, and a notoriously dangerous one.
00:06:25.411 --> 00:06:38.435
And when I first moved to Chicago, fresh off the Missouri, farm fields didn't have any lens on anything And I wandered, accidentally, trying to go to the grocery store.
00:06:38.435 --> 00:07:08.346
19 years old, in a mini skirt and a tank top, just wandering around trying to go to the grocery store, and I wind up unknowingly dabs, back in the middle of Cabrini And these two men who I will remember their faces for the rest of my life, these two African American men roll up and they're like hi, we don't want to scare you, but you don't belong here and you should leave.
00:07:08.346 --> 00:07:11.685
And so we're going to walk you out of here.
00:07:11.685 --> 00:07:17.288
And I'm like okay, thanks, let's go.
00:07:17.288 --> 00:07:17.850
I'm sorry.
00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:24.608
I'm like no, no, no, no, no, just not where you should be, you don't belong here, like.
00:07:24.608 --> 00:07:25.410
They're like where are you going?
00:07:25.410 --> 00:07:26.552
I'm like I'm going to Dominic's.
00:07:26.552 --> 00:07:28.624
They're like that is literally across the street.
00:07:28.624 --> 00:07:30.449
But we got to walk you out of here And I'm like okay.
00:07:30.449 --> 00:07:31.271
So they did.
00:07:31.271 --> 00:07:36.526
And right when we got out to where I could see the grocery store and I was thanking them and I had talked to them a little.
00:07:36.526 --> 00:07:39.783
It wasn't like we were having like deep, meaningful conversations or anything like that.
00:07:40.500 --> 00:07:44.185
The police roll up and I'm not anti police, don't fricking at Dr Ramona.
00:07:44.185 --> 00:07:46.024
There's a role for everybody.
00:07:46.024 --> 00:07:48.009
But there's a lot that needs to change, right?
00:07:48.009 --> 00:08:01.668
But I grew up that law enforcement is who protects you And you know you could probably cry your way out of a ticket, but if you need something you got to call 911 and then the police come and they fix it.
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.908
So I saw these police officers and I was like, oh, everything's cool.
00:08:04.908 --> 00:08:12.714
They rush out of the car, rush, rush and surround me And they're like are you okay?
00:08:12.714 --> 00:08:13.637
Are you okay?
00:08:13.637 --> 00:08:14.660
What are these men doing?
00:08:14.660 --> 00:08:16.023
And I'm like these two.
00:08:17.447 --> 00:08:21.233
I don't remember their names, i don't remember their faces, but at that point I knew their names.
00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.588
I'm like you mean like Joe and Joey, these two What?
00:08:25.622 --> 00:08:55.259
And they're like, well, you know, because clearly they saw little defenseless white girl and two large black men and they thought something is wrong here And they were so aggressive and rude and immediately suspicious of these men who, quite honestly, dr Ramona, could have saved my life because stray bullets were popping like popcorn at that point, right, like I didn't know this at the time, i had to go look it up, right, that's how removed I was.
00:08:55.320 --> 00:09:00.431
But those two men could have saved my life, very realistically, protected me from harm.
00:09:00.750 --> 00:09:01.673
They didn't have to.
00:09:01.673 --> 00:09:08.206
They could have been like you know, little girl, you little moron doors, that way you know, have fun in the grocery store.
00:09:08.206 --> 00:09:08.822
They didn't.
00:09:08.822 --> 00:09:30.317
And these officers were so aggressive and so nasty to them and so overly protective of me that in that moment I realized that everything I'd been fed in the nineties about we are the world and don't see color is ridiculous, because the system sees color, and if the system sees color, that means I have advantages that I didn't know.
00:09:30.317 --> 00:09:36.693
And so in that moment I was 19 years old, so that was 2003.
00:09:36.693 --> 00:09:46.190
Those two men changed my life and I hope they're safe and I hope they're alive and I hope that they're with us and that they're happy in what happiness looks like to them.
00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:55.566
But they saved my life, and also that day I realized that how I get treated is vastly different than how other people get treated, even in the process of good works.
00:09:55.566 --> 00:10:00.303
Kind of a long story, but that's when I realized that I had privilege.
00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:14.225
It's so real, right, and it seems that that has really shaped how you move through life, right, that it was totally, totally direction changing in your life, right?
00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:22.548
Well, and I called my parents and I told them what happened and my mom was like, oh, she was the one, cause she's my mom that really leaned into, like honey, you could have been shot.
00:10:22.548 --> 00:10:24.687
And it always annoys me as a Chicagoan.
00:10:24.687 --> 00:10:27.048
People are like, aren't you worried about getting shot?
00:10:27.048 --> 00:10:32.005
And I'm like, no, i'm worried about the eight neighborhoods that have no resources, and so the only way out is crime.
00:10:32.005 --> 00:10:33.465
That's what I freaking lose sleep about.
00:10:33.465 --> 00:10:37.210
Right, But really realistically, this time my mom was right.
00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:49.769
I was in imminent danger, and so when she gave it that weight, i thought, well, hold on, if I was in imminent danger, why didn't the police rush to my aid in a positive way?
00:10:49.769 --> 00:10:57.264
And when I told them that those men saved me or had escorted me or had been so kind to me, why didn't they let up?
00:10:57.264 --> 00:11:01.668
Why did they keep insisting that they were trying to hurt me or do something for me?
00:11:01.668 --> 00:11:06.467
And I was like this is not okay, this is not just, this is not equitable.
00:11:06.467 --> 00:11:19.759
And if it's only gonna be because I'm this tiny little iridescent thing and they're these hulking dark things, then we don't have a fair system Here it is.
00:11:19.899 --> 00:11:40.186
I'm so glad that you took that and you actually reflected in, you started to do the work that you're doing now, because I think that that's a lot of what happens with people is that they have these experiences but they don't reflect and they don't take action and make any kind of change.
00:11:40.186 --> 00:11:51.246
Yeah, and so, as we are thinking about that and thinking about your lens and really understanding you now, your business right.
00:11:51.246 --> 00:12:06.628
So you have been talking about this idea of rebranding, doing things different, not doing sleazy sales right, all of these types of things that we know about you.
00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:20.491
And so tell me a little bit about what happens in your business and the quirkiness that you bring and all of the things about you and your business.
00:12:21.221 --> 00:12:33.945
I've always been so fascinated by the incredible species known as people Yeah Right, and what makes people tick and what makes people different and how.
00:12:33.945 --> 00:12:45.030
I love your question about lens because it's like there's so many different ways that that color stuff right, or just life experience, how it changes stuff up, or twins that grow up in the exact same house and wind up so different.
00:12:45.030 --> 00:12:49.806
I've always been so fascinated like what is your voice, what is your story, what is your experience?
00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:59.144
And so in how that translated into marketing and everything is, we're all in crowded markets, right, especially people in networks.
00:12:59.144 --> 00:13:00.664
They're all selling the same product.
00:13:00.664 --> 00:13:07.586
Yeah, every single person's gotta come up with a way to sell the same widget, right.
00:13:07.779 --> 00:13:08.703
So how are?
00:13:08.744 --> 00:13:09.407
we gonna do that?
00:13:09.407 --> 00:13:13.284
How are we gonna diversify, how are we gonna showcase, how are we gonna do all these things?
00:13:13.284 --> 00:13:32.186
And I noticed along the way that that was what I became known for is kind of this brand excavator that can get right to the heart of somebody and be like hey, this is why you should buy from me, this is why you should trust me, this is why you should grow a relationship with me, this is why you should join my line, this is why da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da.
00:13:32.186 --> 00:13:32.466
Right.
00:13:32.466 --> 00:13:47.990
But when I realized and I would lean more and more into that I started realizing that how I was showing up was no longer fully me And in that moment I knew I had to rebrand.
00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:56.427
But in the past, when I would rebrand, i would completely wipe the slate clean and start over, like that old brand would die.
00:13:56.427 --> 00:13:59.508
I would host a public funeral for it.
00:13:59.508 --> 00:14:04.245
I would basically burn all the business cards and change the websites and be done.
00:14:04.245 --> 00:14:17.283
And this time I didn't want that, because it's not that I was showing up incorrectly through the non-sleazy sales academy, it's just I also lead people through other explorations other than sales.
00:14:17.899 --> 00:14:28.326
So when I would meet people in the wild, or after I would speak or something, they'd come up and they'd be like, well, i don't need to hire you because my sales processes are on lockdown, but is there anything else that you can offer me?
00:14:28.326 --> 00:14:35.328
And I'm like technically, absolutely, but if you go to my website, is any of that reflected?
00:14:35.328 --> 00:14:37.567
Absolutely not Right.
00:14:37.567 --> 00:14:42.386
So I gave myself Quirkworks as a rebrand, as a present, as an evolution.
00:14:42.386 --> 00:14:46.530
I didn't wipe the non-sleazy sales academy from the face of the earth.
00:14:46.530 --> 00:14:47.705
You just read it in my bio.
00:14:47.705 --> 00:15:02.625
They're right next to each other, they're siblings now, right, but I had to give myself more spaciousness because the box I built for myself, the platform I built for myself, became limiting, right, the narrative became too small.
00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:14.648
So tell me what you did different, because I think everybody can identify with this piece where you say, oh, i need to do something different, i'm not doing this anymore, i'm scratching it.
00:15:14.648 --> 00:15:17.668
Let me take all the things down from Instagram.
00:15:18.100 --> 00:15:23.284
Let me make sure that nobody can see anything on my website from that thing before.
00:15:23.284 --> 00:15:25.583
Right, let me restart.
00:15:25.583 --> 00:15:39.211
Let me just flounder for months trying to get it re-going again and not take any kind of action, because I'm rebuilding all of this content.
00:15:39.211 --> 00:15:48.019
So tell us what do you do And when you realize that it's time to make that change, especially as we're thinking about.
00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:59.836
Okay, i have not been doing what I need to do with inclusion, right, diversity, equity and inclusion Yes, and I need to do some rebranding to really start to catch up with what I'm feeling about this.
00:15:59.836 --> 00:16:05.467
So teach us, oh God, so many things, so, so many things.
00:16:06.659 --> 00:16:09.789
First of all, save yourself the effort of a full brand scrub.
00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:14.248
Even if you're doing something totally different, you're still you, right?
00:16:14.248 --> 00:16:25.028
So, unless you have been showing up out of integrity because somebody else is forcing their ethics on you or integrity on you which happens when you're part of a company, right?
00:16:25.028 --> 00:16:37.110
Or if you back a product, or if you back, you know, a system or something where the company policy changes, like very famous example, lula Roe, right?
00:16:37.110 --> 00:16:48.048
So all these people were loving on Lula and then sellers of color had big concerns and they were kind of just basically ignored And at that point they're like cool, i used to have every single thing in my life.
00:16:48.048 --> 00:16:51.470
Be like it's Lula, annie, not me, but you know what I mean.
00:16:52.162 --> 00:17:00.408
And that's a rebrand, because then you're like I am lying myself to something that has moved in a direction away from where I thought we were going as a family, right.
00:17:00.408 --> 00:17:03.109
If that, yeah, maybe you want to go ahead and scrub that.
00:17:03.109 --> 00:17:12.571
But if you're just stepping out in a newer, better, more refined and more inclusive way, keep yourself.
00:17:12.571 --> 00:17:13.643
You're still you.
00:17:13.643 --> 00:17:17.085
You're evolving and your evolution becomes part of the story.
00:17:17.085 --> 00:17:25.903
When I just rebranded again and I was giggling wildly, not because I was laughing at you listener, but because I've done every single thing that Dr Imode just said.
00:17:25.903 --> 00:17:31.647
I have overstressed, i have over rebranded, i have sat in it, i have gone dark for months.
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:51.130
I've done every possible mistake you could do, but this time I literally made my business card is like this little timeline of all of on this side, all of the businesses that I've had previously that have led up to this one, because they're all part of my story, they're all me.
00:17:51.130 --> 00:18:03.769
So if you really want to go through the backlog of my brand, you're going to see stuff from way back here, but you're still going to see me And when people like you ask me my story, i start way down here, right.
00:18:03.769 --> 00:18:05.688
I started the root, i started the basic.
00:18:05.688 --> 00:18:34.930
Now, if you are working to make your brand more inclusive, specifically, i need you to think long and hard about what is available for you to do that, so that your rebrand does not come off as performative inclusion or, my fellow white Americans, white saviorism, in that we're not trying to go.
00:18:34.930 --> 00:18:43.108
Okay, i have this very white centric and I'm picking on white listeners because I am white, but everybody can work on being more inclusive.
00:18:43.108 --> 00:18:47.928
But you know, like, because Lord knows, there's a million more people we got to include.
00:18:47.928 --> 00:18:52.686
We got to include trans people and queer people and the differently abled and so many.
00:18:52.686 --> 00:19:11.760
But what I'm not going to do, if I'm rebranding and I'm trying to be more inclusive is I'm not going to go on Canva and replace my entire website with stock photos of people of color, well-intentioned, incorrect.
00:19:11.760 --> 00:19:22.901
Instead, what I need to do is I need to seek out, fortify and amplify voices of color through my network.
00:19:22.901 --> 00:19:28.755
That looks very different than just being like oh, there's a black woman on my website.
00:19:28.755 --> 00:19:29.596
Now I'm inclusive.
00:19:29.596 --> 00:19:33.598
Yes, right, so we want to open it up.
00:19:33.710 --> 00:19:36.193
But the thing is, that's so lovely, is you're like well, how do you do that?
00:19:36.193 --> 00:19:38.576
Annie, be a normal person.
00:19:38.576 --> 00:20:01.361
If you were going out in your life and you realize that you're coming from a position of privilege or ignorance and I don't mean chosen ignorance, i mean accidental, experiential, learned ignorance If you're showing up in that space and you're awakening to that awesome, go find an amazing cause you can support and have a fundraiser.
00:20:01.361 --> 00:20:04.557
Go interview someone and open your mic to them.
00:20:04.557 --> 00:20:05.800
That's different than you.
00:20:05.800 --> 00:20:07.817
Go listen, don't even talk.
00:20:07.817 --> 00:20:13.938
Go, put yourself in a position where you can listen and learn and then maybe tell your network what you learned.
00:20:13.938 --> 00:20:18.454
But that's something that's so important too, as we're all evolving.
00:20:18.454 --> 00:20:21.538
How are we going to actually do this?
00:20:21.538 --> 00:20:25.435
The thing is performative inclusion, and I can't wait to hear your thoughts on this.
00:20:25.435 --> 00:20:47.199
But from my vantage point, performative inclusion often looks like a lot showier, a lot flashier and sometimes more work, where the process of actual inclusion has always been a series of intentional baby steps, in my opinion, Yeah, i absolutely agree.
00:20:47.590 --> 00:20:55.778
I always say people think that when we talk about being inclusive, that they have to go and get signs and start marching on the street.
00:20:55.778 --> 00:20:59.599
That is not what we mean.
00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:11.279
There are so many different things that you can do where you're just opening your mind to other perspectives and making sure that you consider those things and take action.
00:21:11.710 --> 00:21:17.298
There is learning and using that knowledge based on what your lens is.
00:21:17.298 --> 00:21:29.041
When you say, this is my lens, now I'm going to learn about other people to see what biases I am having towards them because of my lens.
00:21:29.041 --> 00:21:32.980
All of those types of things are being more inclusive.
00:21:32.980 --> 00:21:35.637
We have to determine.
00:21:35.637 --> 00:21:42.034
our disruption I think I said this when we talked before is that we've got to say, okay, where do?
00:21:42.034 --> 00:21:47.941
I start, determine where that disruption is going to happen.
00:21:48.711 --> 00:21:54.419
A lot of people don't do that because they're like there's just so much to do, what can I do?
00:21:54.419 --> 00:21:56.737
Let me just stay in my little box.
00:21:56.737 --> 00:22:01.780
That's not what we mean by inclusion and that's not the way to go.
00:22:01.780 --> 00:22:10.176
I think there's one thing that's important to say is that acceptance doesn't mean agreement.
00:22:12.012 --> 00:22:23.381
A lot of times, people think that I'm going to have to agree with everything to be able to accept a person where they are or their beliefs, and that's not true.
00:22:23.381 --> 00:22:30.123
That is one of the things that's really important to point out here in this conversation as well.
00:22:30.651 --> 00:22:33.219
Everything in this polarizing world is like.
00:22:33.219 --> 00:22:42.980
If I firmly believe that Black Lives Matter which I absolutely do that also doesn't automatically believe that I think we need to fully defund the police.
00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:45.991
Right, exactly Right.
00:22:45.991 --> 00:22:47.857
People may assume that about me.
00:22:47.857 --> 00:22:51.335
Yeah, Those people would be wrong.
00:22:51.335 --> 00:23:05.701
Yeah, there is so much more nuance out in the world than when you're actually doing it, which is why I enjoy something like marching when the time is right, because you see people coming together.
00:23:05.701 --> 00:23:08.353
But also, i don't march every time I can't.
00:23:08.353 --> 00:23:09.817
It's not good for my mental health.
00:23:09.817 --> 00:23:15.018
There are also sometimes where you're like the community needs to grieve and I am not a member of the community.
00:23:15.018 --> 00:23:21.900
Yeah, right, i pick up the second shift of marching.
00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:26.739
Yeah, i go to see Wakana forever the week after it opens.
00:23:26.990 --> 00:23:27.653
You know what I mean.
00:23:27.653 --> 00:23:29.994
It's like No, pay the money.
00:23:29.994 --> 00:23:32.035
No, but I do pay money.
00:23:32.035 --> 00:23:36.240
We're still like No of course, i'm not needed in this.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:38.377
I'm not needed for that Right.
00:23:38.829 --> 00:24:02.481
But like it's so interesting because we're talking about how we're showing up, right, and I think one of the things that I've been very lucky to learn and thankfully people asked me about this, so I've been lucky to share is I firmly very much believe that your platform is a privilege.
00:24:02.481 --> 00:24:19.500
And every single person out there, if you're in business for yourself, and especially if you're building a network around yourself, you are, by design, building a platform based on you, based on your ethics, your integrity, your personality, the whole nine.
00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:27.877
And if you don't choose those things intentionally and showcase them appropriately, people will decide them for you, people will assume them for you, right?
00:24:27.877 --> 00:24:59.279
But what I've learned about a platform being a privilege is that it really, honestly, is true, i went to this wonderful conference back in the day, not dogging the conference at all, but it was a conference for romance writers And I was there to do a social media panel like new social media ideas for romance writers, blah, blah, blah, and there was and it was a panel and there was a panel right before us And this was and I'm not going to get political on this.
00:24:59.349 --> 00:25:13.641
Y'all can make your assumptions about me based on everything I've just said, but this event was dab smack at the beginning of the Trump administration, and what I mean by that was a lot of people were hurting on both sides.
00:25:13.641 --> 00:25:15.755
A lot of people were angry.
00:25:15.755 --> 00:25:24.938
Nobody knew what to do And the general consensus at the time was if you don't know what to do, stay out of the conversation.
00:25:24.938 --> 00:25:41.960
And so the first panel Got up there and you know and George Floyd had just been murdered, like all of this stuff had been happening, and they stood and, you know, rights were being stripped of the LGBTQ community.
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:47.058
We, like so many horrible things were happening, the freaking Muslim ban had just occurred.
00:25:47.058 --> 00:25:51.801
It was awful, it was all awful and for everybody right.
00:25:51.801 --> 00:25:57.715
But the panel before was like you're a writer, nobody wants to hear that from you.
00:25:57.715 --> 00:26:04.823
Just put your little smud out and be happy and be a beacon of escape for people.
00:26:05.891 --> 00:26:24.615
And I didn't know the guy I was on the panel with coming up, but I was watching him listen to this panel and I looked at him and he looked at me at one point and he mouthed to me I am so peoed in full right And I don't know this guy.
00:26:24.615 --> 00:26:26.170
And so I got up there.
00:26:26.170 --> 00:26:40.028
We literally had two minutes while they reset the room between panels And I looked at him and he looked at me and I said so, we're going to throw our whole spiel out and undo that last panel together, right?
00:26:40.028 --> 00:26:44.143
And he's like, yeah, we don't need to talk about social media.
00:26:44.143 --> 00:26:44.544
That bad.
00:26:44.544 --> 00:26:56.805
We need to tell these people that if they are lucky enough to have people hanging onto their every word, written or otherwise, that if something matters to them and if something is on their heart, they need to share that, even if they alienate and lose readers.
00:26:56.805 --> 00:26:59.383
Too bad, too bad.
00:26:59.694 --> 00:27:05.940
So we did and we sat down and we said, respectfully, we disagree with every single thing that was just said in this room, everything.
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:09.201
And people started crying and people started clapping.
00:27:09.201 --> 00:27:17.422
And then we got to work And we started talking about how every eyeball on you is an opportunity to support, amplify or change something.
00:27:17.422 --> 00:27:19.260
Again, baby steps.
00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:24.586
Am I going to convince someone in a tweet about my romance novel to not be so racist?
00:27:24.586 --> 00:27:26.160
No, absolutely not.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:26.942
Right.
00:27:26.942 --> 00:27:39.403
But by showcasing an author of color who I super love their work, am I possibly helping them find new readership, which then, in some small way, like you were saying with Wakanda Forever, puts money where my motives are?
00:27:39.403 --> 00:27:45.941
Yes, absolutely, that I can do But to stay out of the conversation entirely.
00:27:45.941 --> 00:27:47.243
Is white privilege supreme?
00:27:48.205 --> 00:27:48.446
Yes.
00:27:48.654 --> 00:27:49.479
Whether or not you're white.
00:27:50.615 --> 00:27:55.603
Yes, And the silence is what is really.
00:27:55.603 --> 00:27:57.988
It kills people.
00:27:57.988 --> 00:28:00.145
Right That that silence is?
00:28:00.912 --> 00:28:01.355
is terrible.
00:28:01.355 --> 00:28:02.760
Yeah, the silence of violence.
00:28:02.760 --> 00:28:13.079
We've seen it, we've seen silence is violence in real life, and we've also seen how much raising your voice in whatever way that feels right to you can do.
00:28:13.079 --> 00:28:23.806
And it just so happens if you're watching this show, you're out representing yourself and your network on social media and on the internet every day.
00:28:23.806 --> 00:28:26.919
Yeah, and that's a privilege.
00:28:27.855 --> 00:28:32.384
Yes, i love that Your, your platform is a privilege.
00:28:32.384 --> 00:28:34.542
I absolutely love that.
00:28:34.542 --> 00:28:45.719
No matter what you think, your platform is a privilege and it is something to be used And but like you don't, like you said, you don't have to involve yourself in every single conversation.
00:28:46.561 --> 00:28:56.270
Yes, right, like if every single time there was something in Chicago that worried me or bothered me and I took to my I don't know why I almost said Twitter.
00:28:56.270 --> 00:29:06.380
I'm not on Twitter anymore, but let's just say I was like if I took the Twitter every single time I saw an injustice, then I would have to go be a full time activist because I would not be able to post about anything else.
00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:13.779
I don't want to say pick and choose, but I want to say, when called ask what is my motivation for posting?
00:29:13.779 --> 00:29:18.525
If my motivation here is to ally or amplify, go ahead.
00:29:18.525 --> 00:29:24.287
If it's to wail, shed white tears or be performative, keep it to yourself.
00:29:24.287 --> 00:29:25.819
Go do something actual.
00:29:26.455 --> 00:29:27.641
So this is good stuff.
00:29:27.641 --> 00:29:28.799
Good stuff already, amy.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:48.438
OK, so, as we're talking about this idea of the, the work that you're doing, and one thing that I really want to bring out is the joy, because a lot of times, work that we can do even when we think about D, i and all of that, it can feel yes, right.
00:29:48.919 --> 00:29:52.827
Oh goodness, we're thinking through the, the joy.
00:29:52.827 --> 00:30:06.398
How do we lean into that joy, even as we're making these changes right In our, in the rebranding or the other things that we may be doing in our, our work or in our business?
00:30:06.398 --> 00:30:09.586
how do we make sure that we lean in with that joy?
00:30:10.474 --> 00:30:14.405
One of the most impactful books I ever read, and it gets sorted all the time.
00:30:14.405 --> 00:30:24.828
It's not like I discovered this book, but Man Search for Meaning by Victor Franco is largely, interestingly, a book about joy and finding it where you can find it.
00:30:24.828 --> 00:30:38.361
So if anybody is not familiar with the book, victor Franco was in a concentration camp, had lost his wife and talks a lot about when everything is just absolutely awful.
00:30:38.361 --> 00:30:47.673
How do you go on, how do you persevere when you're seeing the ugliness of humanity up front and you're being victimized?
00:30:47.673 --> 00:30:48.558
How do you still?
00:30:48.558 --> 00:31:02.787
And in a famous passage of the book he's talking about how, when he would be out in the forced labor camps, out in the fields, he would look at the sunrise or he would remember his wife's hands and in that he would have a moment of joy.
00:31:02.787 --> 00:31:08.156
And for him that moment of joy was both an act of rebellion and an act of survival.
00:31:08.156 --> 00:31:12.894
But it was joyful even in that small moment, right.
00:31:13.236 --> 00:31:30.259
And then I saw that again at the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine, when stuff was coming out about like giant Russian drones that old women were blowing up with pickle jars, because they were literally like just taking jars of pickles off their balcony and just being like boop, and then they're laughing.
00:31:30.259 --> 00:31:33.263
These are their lives, are literally a risk.
00:31:33.263 --> 00:31:35.142
That thing is there to hurt them.
00:31:35.142 --> 00:31:36.654
And yet how are they going to do it?
00:31:36.654 --> 00:31:37.855
Are they going to take a baseball bat?
00:31:37.855 --> 00:31:39.295
No, she's like what do I have available?
00:31:39.295 --> 00:31:40.359
This jar of pickles?
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:42.778
So, haha, buy drone.
00:31:42.778 --> 00:31:46.907
You know, $2 million drone gone in an instant taken down by some pickles.
00:31:46.907 --> 00:31:50.096
Haha, she probably pickled them herself, right?
00:31:51.015 --> 00:32:12.434
But I think, looking for the joy, looking for the humanity a lot of the way, looking for the humor, even the Irish humor, which is like the dark If we don't, we'll laugh, so we don't cry Humor can be really helpful to both differentiate you and unite you.
00:32:12.434 --> 00:32:21.026
But what I want to say to everybody is if you are in and marginalized or historically ignored group, your joy is an act of open rebellion.
00:32:21.026 --> 00:32:24.503
Oh, yes, yes, right.
00:32:24.503 --> 00:32:34.855
When, when the rights of women are stripped away and we see women holding hands and singing in the streets, that is an act of rebellion, right.
00:32:34.855 --> 00:32:39.414
When we see I keep bringing up Wakanda forever because it was just on TV and I just watched it, right.
00:32:39.414 --> 00:32:52.361
But when we see little kids dressed up and surrounding the theater and they're singing and they're crying and they're so excited to see themselves reflected on a big screen by such incredible heroes.
00:32:52.361 --> 00:32:54.586
That joy is an act of rebellion.
00:32:54.586 --> 00:32:59.414
It's also a commercial act of rebellion because, to your point, we're putting money where that is right.
00:32:59.575 --> 00:33:04.007
But your joy is not just a differentiator.
00:33:04.007 --> 00:33:05.981
Your joy is a beacon.
00:33:05.981 --> 00:33:08.061
Your joy is a lighthouse.
00:33:08.061 --> 00:33:19.980
Your joy is a permission slip to anyone else out there who has been told that they are less than, or they should just sit there and be quiet, or that the system's not designed for them.
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:30.996
Your joy allows other people to question what can I be doing to express my life more fully or live my life more fully?
00:33:30.996 --> 00:33:48.717
whether it's being tracked on social media or not, your joy, right, extends the permission, extends the invitation to play with me, and if I'm doing that, we see how much change that makes, right, we see how much change that makes.
00:33:48.717 --> 00:33:52.455
And so it's not just differentiation, it's a huge differentiator.
00:33:52.829 --> 00:33:57.554
I do weird stuff on LinkedIn every single day of my life and that's how I make money.
00:33:57.554 --> 00:33:58.336
Why?
00:33:58.336 --> 00:34:01.618
Because I'm being a performative goofball on LinkedIn.
00:34:01.618 --> 00:34:19.137
Getting on my friends to do weird stuff, getting you to talk about love is blind, right, i have a sopranos panel coming up where we're all gonna eat lasagna and talk about, yeah, whatever, i do weird stuff And I do weird stuff for the publicity of it and I do weird stuff for the attention of it.
00:34:19.137 --> 00:34:22.074
I'm not saying that I don't, i absolutely do.
00:34:22.074 --> 00:34:35.942
But at the same point, if I'm gonna stop the scroll, i either have to be so brilliant, so angry, so polarizing or so joyful.
00:34:35.942 --> 00:34:46.677
And the right choice for me, even when I'm angry and even when I wanna say something polarizing, is to find the element of joy in it, because people will listen to me when I'm joyful.
00:34:46.677 --> 00:34:48.681
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:49.510 --> 00:34:50.733
And that's me, that's me.
00:34:51.496 --> 00:34:52.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:52.199 --> 00:35:15.039
And so it's so interesting that you talk about that, because a lot of times and I've heard you say this is that people often think of rebranding, doing different things in their business, as like a death, like I got it all wrong, it was a failure, it was something that I just didn't.
00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:19.092
I didn't meet the mark right, i messed up.
00:35:19.092 --> 00:35:25.818
It's going great for everybody else, but it's going terrible for me, and now I've got to do this rebranding again.
00:35:25.818 --> 00:35:39.333
But you talk about it not as a death, but as an evolution of who you are as an evolution of your business, and that is why we can have joy even in these big.
00:35:39.873 --> 00:35:47.356
What we feel like is a big change, because it's a growth that's happening and not a death right.
00:35:48.190 --> 00:35:50.878
What year did you become Dr Ramona?
00:35:50.878 --> 00:35:52.985
In 2010.
00:35:52.985 --> 00:35:53.811
Did that?
00:35:53.871 --> 00:35:54.594
feel like a death.
00:35:54.594 --> 00:36:03.057
No, no, it didn't feel like a death Your name totally say you know that I will not, we're friends and I will not call you Ramona.
00:36:03.250 --> 00:36:08.016
I only call you Dr Ramona because that is your title and that is your name.
00:36:08.016 --> 00:36:12.637
Right, i became Annie P Ruggles in 2015,.
00:36:12.637 --> 00:36:18.297
Right, when I married my husband and I took his name, and then I didn't want to give up my stuff completely.
00:36:18.297 --> 00:36:19.092
So that's what the P is.
00:36:19.092 --> 00:36:20.237
The P stands for Pasanese.
00:36:20.237 --> 00:36:35.998
That was my name before right, okay, in both of those instances, choosing a new name for ourselves, for you, it's a badge of honor, a showing of accomplishment and a constant reminder of you knowing your.
00:36:35.998 --> 00:36:40.697
You know what, with me, it was the blending of family.
00:36:40.697 --> 00:36:55.099
And also, when you marry someone whose last name is Ruggles, it's kind of prioritizing joy, because your name sounds like snuggles And when you look like me, people are like, oh Ruggles, she's a muppet And I'm like cool, lean in on that, right, but that's just our name and that's just life right.
00:36:55.170 --> 00:37:00.954
But in either of those instances maybe we had a little ego death as we step into that new level.
00:37:00.954 --> 00:37:02.079
That's normal, right.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:09.577
But you becoming and living as Dr Ramona was not a death, it was an evolution, right?
00:37:09.577 --> 00:37:15.376
So me having Quirkworks is not a failing of the Non-Sleazy Sales Academy.
00:37:15.376 --> 00:37:17.336
The Non-Sleazy Sales Academy didn't fail.
00:37:17.336 --> 00:37:19.916
It was the most successful brand I ever had.
00:37:19.916 --> 00:37:21.795
But it was too small.
00:37:21.795 --> 00:37:23.976
It had to grow.
00:37:23.976 --> 00:37:25.936
I had to give it space.
00:37:26.090 --> 00:37:27.936
It's basically a house plant, right?
00:37:27.936 --> 00:37:36.978
So if you treat your brand like a house plant and you water it and you feed it and the pot becomes too small, that's not the fault of the pot and that's not a death.
00:37:36.978 --> 00:37:40.360
That's a growth, literally a growth, right?
00:37:40.360 --> 00:37:58.117
So if you water and nurture and feed something in you and you lean into joy which is its own form of sunlight, if the plant is too small or the wrong shape, you gotta change the pot And you don't beat yourself up for planting it in the other pot in the first place.
00:37:58.117 --> 00:38:00.103
That's the pot you needed at the time.
00:38:00.103 --> 00:38:00.869
You needed it at the time.
00:38:01.090 --> 00:38:04.280
Come on, you better teach the people.
00:38:05.974 --> 00:38:44.489
Oh, okay, I like it I mean so much of entrepreneurship and I never understood this until I started having to practice it So much of entrepreneurship is self-forgiveness, and we talked a lot about white privilege and me saying white stupid stuff like that requires a lot of Forgiveness, because I'm sure, yeah, somewhere on the internet and I lose sleep at this overnight I'm sure I have said some racially insensitive or otherwise stuff because of my lens, right, because of The 90s and the flesh tone crayons and the.
00:38:44.489 --> 00:38:46.114
We are the world and the.
00:38:46.114 --> 00:39:02.231
You know all of that and then also, you know, being a queer identified person myself, there's a lot that we assume we know about each other that we don't and and I'm sure I've said horrible things, horrible, and I'm terrified about those things.
00:39:02.231 --> 00:39:11.519
Finding the light a day again And I'm constantly afraid that I'm gonna say something stupid again because of a malfunctioning lens, right, like, oh, my goodness.
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:22.751
But also I can lean in and I can own that and I could say okay, if I were called out Because someone found in a video of me where I say something stupid, is that a death?
00:39:23.141 --> 00:39:26.931
Maybe an ego death might be a little ego death, but am I gonna go back to square one?
00:39:26.931 --> 00:39:31.139
No, i'm gonna say I own up to that.
00:39:31.139 --> 00:39:33.047
I'm not gonna excuse it.
00:39:33.047 --> 00:39:43.782
My lens was malfunctioning, i was woefully Incorrect and I apologize to anyone offended or affected by this, and here's what I'm gonna do to make it right and here's What I've learned in the process.
00:39:43.782 --> 00:39:44.583
And you're gonna move on.
00:39:44.583 --> 00:39:49.001
You wouldn't call that a death, you would call that atonement Right.
00:39:49.001 --> 00:39:55.681
So like whether you're building because you have to, because you've made missteps or mistakes in the past, that's growth.
00:39:55.681 --> 00:40:00.193
Or if you're flourishing and you need a new pot, that's also growth.
00:40:00.902 --> 00:40:03.760
Oh, and we have talked about so much in this conversation.
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:11.925
We were not even supposed to talk about all this, but this is so good, it's so good.
00:40:11.925 --> 00:40:17.119
So so tell us what are some of the the last things that you want to talk about.
00:40:17.119 --> 00:40:24.103
I know that We talked about this idea of a referral based Personality business.
00:40:24.103 --> 00:40:25.568
I don't want to leave that out.
00:40:25.568 --> 00:40:38.971
So give us a few last thoughts about That and then tell us where in the world we can keep in touch with you, because I know The inclusive network of audience is going to want to find you after this.
00:40:40.041 --> 00:40:51.730
You know I am not a practicing religious person, But one thing I think about all the time is a song that we used to sing in Sunday school, which I think a lot of people know called this little light of mine.
00:40:51.730 --> 00:40:56.123
Right, yes, this little light of mine, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:40:56.123 --> 00:40:58.588
And the whole thing is right, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:40:58.588 --> 00:41:00.414
Put it under a barrel, no.
00:41:01.362 --> 00:41:03.730
I'm gonna let it shine hide it in the closet.
00:41:03.829 --> 00:41:06.025
No, i'm gonna let it shine, right.
00:41:06.025 --> 00:41:08.362
And so There are all of these people.
00:41:08.362 --> 00:41:23.065
Whenever I'm out in the world, especially now that I've rebranded as corkworks, people's objection To leaning into their essence is Annie, i'm not you, i'm not a Muppet, i'm not loud, i don't have a theater degree, i'm not this, i'm not that.
00:41:23.065 --> 00:41:28.333
I'm learning in it, whatever it is, and I'm like you don't have to be me, you have to be you.
00:41:28.353 --> 00:41:32.731
And If what that is is dry-humored, great.
00:41:32.731 --> 00:41:35.889
If what that is is introverted, great.
00:41:35.889 --> 00:41:40.329
If what that is is a keen observer of the human experience, great.
00:41:40.329 --> 00:41:43.463
Lean in Leverage that.
00:41:43.844 --> 00:41:49.083
When I say a personality-based business, that is being chosen for you, just like the brand stuff we talked before.
00:41:49.083 --> 00:41:54.601
If you are not declaring yourself, you are being declared to yourself, right?
00:41:54.601 --> 00:42:00.431
So, whatever that declaration looks like, you are running a personality-based business, no matter what.
00:42:00.431 --> 00:42:10.911
So you may as well, within boundary, determine who you want to show up as and not put that on, but choose that as a version of yourself.
00:42:10.911 --> 00:42:27.735
And for me, it always comes back to this little light of mine, because sometimes it's creepy and sometimes it's scary, and I could only imagine, if you're in a marginalized group or a Historically excluded group, how much scary, how much more vulnerable.
00:42:27.735 --> 00:42:32.744
Which is why I say you got to do it within boundary, keep yourself safe, experiment, right.
00:42:33.025 --> 00:42:47.945
But at the end of the day, if you start to feel Narcissistic or like no one wants to hear from you or you're playing too big, or you've got a hater that says something terrible on YouTube or Any of these things in my mind, i just sing this little item mine and I go.
00:42:47.945 --> 00:42:49.630
Okay, i put myself out there today.
00:42:49.630 --> 00:42:52.539
It hurt a little bit, it was a little bit scary.
00:42:52.539 --> 00:42:58.746
I attracted some jerk, but a bunch of other people found me today And maybe I said what they needed to say.
00:42:58.786 --> 00:42:59.327
And guess what?
00:42:59.327 --> 00:43:01.682
this little item, mine, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:43:01.682 --> 00:43:04.528
Let this YouTube hater shut me up.
00:43:04.528 --> 00:43:06.813
No, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:43:06.813 --> 00:43:10.719
Play small on an interview No, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.105
Delete all my old Instagram.
00:43:13.105 --> 00:43:15.048
No, i'm gonna let it shine.
00:43:15.048 --> 00:43:17.213
Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.
00:43:17.213 --> 00:43:18.021
Right.
00:43:18.021 --> 00:43:29.846
But that's what I mean by running a personality based business is the light of you expressed as you in the world, not as a clone of me, not as a clone of you, dr Emona, but as themselves.
00:43:29.846 --> 00:43:34.034
Yeah, whatever that looks like, and it's an exploration and an unfolding.
00:43:34.054 --> 00:43:47.123
I Love that, and I am a deeply Practicing Christian and have always been, and so I really can identify with This little light of mine.
00:43:47.123 --> 00:43:55.853
Right, that's one of the first things that we learn as a Little kid, like you said, in Sunday school, and it's a perfect way to.
00:43:59.961 --> 00:44:07.731
I'm gonna let it shine regardless and And I'm going to make sure, yes, that I let it shine.
00:44:07.731 --> 00:44:17.275
So, annie, i Have loved talking to you today, so tell us where do we find you, and then you know how do.
00:44:17.275 --> 00:44:18.719
What's the big thing that's coming up next?
00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.793
What do we need to do to plug into your community?
00:44:21.793 --> 00:44:23.543
Oh, boy.
00:44:24.184 --> 00:44:29.320
Um, you know what y'all, we have talked about some heavy stuff on this episode.
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:49.911
So, if you want to, if you need a, lot of joyful stuff, but if you want to laugh, you need to laugh that I want you to go on over, stay in your podcast player and look up to legitimate to quit, because we are having some real but also real fun conversations about what it takes to compete in these industries And we're giving you marketing and sales skills and mindset stuff all of it.
00:44:49.911 --> 00:44:58.528
Depending on when you are finding this episode, go look for dr Amonus episode where we talk about love is blind and it's freaking fabulous.
00:44:58.528 --> 00:44:59.972
But I'll get you.
00:45:02.141 --> 00:45:02.804
I was watching.
00:45:02.804 --> 00:45:03.644
Love is blind.
00:45:03.644 --> 00:45:07.373
I'll prop myself on not watching trash TV.
00:45:07.373 --> 00:45:10.047
So it's all it's out there.
00:45:14.423 --> 00:45:15.960
She picked it, i did not.
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:17.802
What's that upon her?
00:45:17.802 --> 00:45:20.849
she chose it, so, yeah, but you know what?
00:45:20.849 --> 00:45:26.085
by owning that truth, you are demonstrating What we're talking about today.
00:45:26.085 --> 00:45:29.519
You find joy in love is blind, which is trash.
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:44.434
So you've made an exception and I'm being on my show, you're living your joy out loud And then from there, you know, you can find my social, you can find anything, you can go and you could download your free copy on my book.
00:45:44.434 --> 00:45:50.653
There's a million things you can do, but stay in this podcast player, pop over there and let's have some joy together.
00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:52.882
Amazing.
00:45:52.882 --> 00:46:01.108
So thank you so much for listening to this episode of the inclusive Networker and thank you to my fabulous guests.
00:46:01.108 --> 00:46:04.050
Any P-ruggles like snuggles?
00:46:04.050 --> 00:46:05.579
any P-ruggles?
00:46:05.579 --> 00:46:13.480
You will find her information in the show notes and we will see you on the next episode of the inclusive networker podcast.
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:14.302
See you.
00:46:14.302 --> 00:46:21.782
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the inclusive Networker.
00:46:21.782 --> 00:46:26.760
You can find out all the information for our fabulous guests today in the show notes.
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:36.940
But don't forget to subscribe to the inclusive networker podcast and to look out for a new episode Each week on YouTube and wherever you enjoy your podcast.
00:46:36.940 --> 00:46:45.873
This is your host, dr Ramona, and, as always, remember I see you and I'm cheering you on and I dare you to defy limits.
00:46:45.873 --> 00:46:50.646
See you on the next episode of the inclusive networker You.