Balancing Strategic Projects and Tactical Needs in Ops with Carissa McCall

WEBVTT
00:00:25.274 --> 00:00:30.574
Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom, powered by all the MoPros out there.
00:00:30.574 --> 00:00:50.341
I'm your host, michael Hartman, flying solo, but joining me today is Carissa McCall to talk about one of the biggest operational challenges that MarketingOps folks have, which is how to keep strategic work moving what I like to call change the business stuff while juggling the daily fires and unplanned requests to come with running revenue operations or marketing operations.
00:00:50.341 --> 00:01:02.099
So Carissa is the director of revenue operations at Liquibase, where she leads efforts to align marketing and sales through process improvement, capacity modeling and prioritization frameworks.
00:01:02.099 --> 00:01:07.361
She brings a thoughtful, real world lens to ops leadership, especially when it comes to balancing vision and execution.
00:01:07.361 --> 00:01:10.115
Carissa, welcome to the show again.
00:01:10.716 --> 00:01:12.481
Thanks, michael, happy to be back.
00:01:13.230 --> 00:01:16.639
Yeah, we were just talking before we got on that you were an early guest.
00:01:16.639 --> 00:01:18.772
I had to go remind myself.
00:01:18.772 --> 00:01:23.003
I was like I think she was, and it was right at about a year into our show.
00:01:23.003 --> 00:01:26.639
So it's now three plus years later.
00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:27.742
That is crazy.
00:01:28.409 --> 00:01:30.778
Yeah, so let me start with the big picture.
00:01:30.778 --> 00:01:39.317
So when we talked before, as we were getting ready for this, you talked about building a sustainable capacity model, so you knew what your team could handle.
00:01:39.317 --> 00:01:46.082
Click ad hoc needs so that you could avoid pushing strategic projects out.
00:01:46.082 --> 00:01:47.475
So you keep moving forward.
00:01:47.475 --> 00:01:56.641
What prompted that as sort of a thing that you realized you need to do, and what does the practical day-to-day look like for that?
00:01:57.370 --> 00:01:57.671
Yeah.
00:01:57.671 --> 00:02:13.079
So I was hiring a new person for my team and it was going to be like they were going to be joining about a month before the new quarter began and I was already starting to think about, okay, like what do I want to accomplish in the next quarter?
00:02:13.079 --> 00:02:17.901
And I had always done planning and trying to build out a project plan of what I wanted to accomplish.
00:02:17.942 --> 00:02:37.830
But I've been a team of one for so long in so many different roles and I think a lot of us probably experienced that, like we're small, lean teams, and I was just like, okay, what if I really tried to think this through and not just think of, like, okay, from ours perspective, how much could I get done?
00:02:37.830 --> 00:02:42.841
It's like planning what's realistic to actually set out to do.
00:02:42.841 --> 00:02:45.252
That's real, that's reasonable.
00:02:45.252 --> 00:02:50.573
And so I started thinking about, like, okay, how much time do I actually have in a given week?
00:02:50.573 --> 00:02:54.652
And I started looking at my calendar and I realized you know, I spend a fair bit of time in meetings.
00:02:54.652 --> 00:02:55.997
Like I'm at the director level.
00:02:55.997 --> 00:03:02.290
You're always going to be split in between, like having to be on those strategic calls versus having the time to actually do the thing.
00:03:02.450 --> 00:03:04.112
It's a hard truth that people don't understand.
00:03:04.112 --> 00:03:05.396
They've not been in that role, right.
00:03:05.635 --> 00:03:05.756
No.
00:03:05.756 --> 00:03:11.044
So I started thinking about that and I'm like, okay, well, with this new person, like they're not going to be on as many calls as I am.
00:03:11.044 --> 00:03:21.274
So let me try to think about, okay, what is like a you know 20 hour, 20 hour split look like for myself, you know, of having like time to work versus time I need to be in meetings.
00:03:21.274 --> 00:03:24.236
What does like a 30, 10 hour split look like for that person?
00:03:24.236 --> 00:03:27.461
Like 10 hours needing to be in meetings, like 30 hours being able to work?
00:03:27.461 --> 00:03:32.346
And then I really tried to look at it from like a I'll like back up a sec.
00:03:32.466 --> 00:03:42.691
First tech startup I ever worked at, like I was like you know, I was BDR first, like, and then I was like a general, like marketing coordinator for quite a while and one of the things I learned how to do was project management.
00:03:42.691 --> 00:03:54.763
And I learned like you always leave like 20% of your time unplanned in case something goes wrong, you have a fire, something breaks or you have an urgent project from leadership that needs to be addressed.
00:03:54.763 --> 00:03:59.621
So I'm thinking about all these things and I'm like, hey, how do I plan this out in a really smart way?
00:03:59.621 --> 00:04:00.996
So I started just doing the math.
00:04:00.996 --> 00:04:10.334
Okay, here are some of my KPIs like as a RevOps function, as a RevOps team, what are the projects that need to happen to support those things?
00:04:10.334 --> 00:04:19.912
How much time will those things take, Like those big critical things that will move the business, and then just start doing the math of like what can we realistically accomplish?
00:04:20.273 --> 00:04:22.538
And so that's kind of how I started going about it.
00:04:22.538 --> 00:04:28.521
It's just like I tried to break it down into real numbers and like math of like hours and be realistic about it.
00:04:28.521 --> 00:04:37.683
What prompted me is, like I need to be organized, like and not just, you know, think for myself.
00:04:37.683 --> 00:04:49.995
If, like, this needs to be a real function and like a real team, I need to like, really critically like, think about this and put us in a position where we can actually accomplish the goals that we're trying to set out to do for the business.
00:04:49.995 --> 00:04:51.840
So it came from a place of like.
00:04:51.840 --> 00:04:54.331
It's not just about myself At this point.
00:04:54.370 --> 00:04:56.919
I got to think about what can we accomplish as a team unit?
00:04:58.191 --> 00:05:01.830
Yeah, so was that a relatively recent scenario that you went through this?
00:05:01.830 --> 00:05:02.071
Yeah?
00:05:02.091 --> 00:05:03.275
the last like two months yeah.
00:05:03.710 --> 00:05:03.971
Okay.
00:05:03.971 --> 00:05:17.999
So this is like really top of mind, yeah, and you've got to be able to hand stuff off that is like understandable for the new person, right, and help them right, which adds to your probably adds to your meeting overload and all that, the thing that all this implies, right.
00:05:17.999 --> 00:05:21.152
So let's say you size those out and everything else, like you still have to.
00:05:21.152 --> 00:05:25.381
You probably have some sort of sense of like which ones are most important to do.
00:05:26.250 --> 00:05:28.475
And a prioritization of some sort, which ones are most important to do?
00:05:28.475 --> 00:05:29.275
A prioritization of some sort?
00:05:29.275 --> 00:05:29.355
How?
00:05:29.355 --> 00:05:37.529
How did you go about prioritizing all those different kinds of things to decide what you would say do in this upcoming quarter or delay to the next quarter?
00:05:37.529 --> 00:05:46.914
Or maybe, if you were lucky right and you held out a little bit of your bandwidth through the like, all of a sudden you're like hey, we're going to have a be able to do a little more.
00:05:46.914 --> 00:05:47.917
What's the next thing you would do?
00:05:47.937 --> 00:05:50.681
Never find myself in that position.
00:05:50.681 --> 00:05:52.443
It's a great sentiment, yeah.
00:05:56.090 --> 00:05:56.711
What was your original question?
00:05:56.711 --> 00:05:59.960
Again, yeah, but there's also like, how do you understand, like the level of effort, scope of each of those things?
00:05:59.960 --> 00:06:06.221
And then how do you then prioritize, like, how do you think about prioritizing so you can slot them into a given timeline?
00:06:06.662 --> 00:06:08.302
Yeah, so I have two elements.
00:06:08.302 --> 00:06:17.607
So in you know we use Asana and like within that I make custom labels for a lot of different things so that I can slice and dice and look at things in a few different ways.
00:06:17.607 --> 00:06:23.498
But I have an impact label Like what kind of impact would this probably have to the company?
00:06:23.498 --> 00:06:26.298
I have three labels Impact low, medium, high.
00:06:26.298 --> 00:06:34.322
And so whenever you know we think about like Impact low, medium, high and so whenever we think about effort low, medium, high I put it into there's so many things that we do that are really quick hits.
00:06:34.322 --> 00:06:38.022
It takes under an hour to do a lot of small ops things.
00:06:38.022 --> 00:06:47.057
Low is less than an hour, medium is one to five hours, and then high effort is above, because anything you're spending above five hours, that's a lot of time to put into something.
00:06:47.558 --> 00:06:53.169
Do you have a bucket that is for things that are sort of self-contained within your team or with a relatively small set of people?
00:06:53.169 --> 00:07:00.138
Do you do the same kind of thing for things that are much larger, choosing an entirely new tech platform?
00:07:00.178 --> 00:07:02.677
Not really, and it's a good thought to do that.
00:07:02.677 --> 00:07:06.301
There are so many things that aren't our direct project.
00:07:06.301 --> 00:07:10.962
There's campaign operation, things that are just part of other teams that we're working with.
00:07:10.962 --> 00:07:19.756
But, yeah, I don't think we've gotten to that level of clarity, but it's a good place to go to next to start scoping those things out.
00:07:19.756 --> 00:07:28.059
But, like for an implementation, for example, I make all the subtasks of evaluation and doing a proof of concept if it's needed.
00:07:28.059 --> 00:07:29.250
It's like scoping out all the pieces ofks of evaluation and doing a proof of concept if it's needed.
00:07:29.250 --> 00:07:32.001
It's like scoping out all the pieces of onboarding that need to happen.
00:07:32.962 --> 00:07:36.371
And yeah, I put that in the five hours or above In my mind.
00:07:36.371 --> 00:07:39.078
I know that, okay, this is probably going to take like 15, 20 hours.
00:07:39.078 --> 00:07:43.139
How many of our tasks fall under that five hours or less?
00:07:43.139 --> 00:07:49.663
But then the third element that I look at is what financial impact does this have?
00:07:49.663 --> 00:07:55.140
I heard a couple of years ago I had someone tell me, especially in ops, if it's not related to revenue, it doesn't matter.
00:07:55.140 --> 00:07:59.475
And it's true.
00:07:59.475 --> 00:08:10.917
Sure, there are things that may not seem like they're directly impacting revenue, but even things like data hygiene and territory management, well, that could affect plant growth that's not cleaned up and machine properly.
00:08:10.917 --> 00:08:20.759
So you know, I put the labels of new business, expansion, pipeline growth like ARR growth and so, as I'm like planning things out, I'm labeling them.
00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:27.663
If I'm struggling to put a label how it impacts the business in some capacity, then that means it probably needs to stay on the backlog for a little while longer.
00:08:27.783 --> 00:08:32.673
Yeah, so that's kind of how I go about prioritizing things and planning.
00:08:32.673 --> 00:08:52.700
Do you consider things that are I don't want to say cost reduction, because it has all kinds of other implications, but maybe minimizing cost increases or increasing efficiency, and throughput those kinds of things that are not quite directly tied to revenue or profitability, if you want to think of it that way?
00:08:53.630 --> 00:08:58.601
Those are usually the things that I'll still do anyway.
00:08:58.601 --> 00:09:00.004
That's that 5%.
00:09:00.004 --> 00:09:06.953
So it's like if we have an attribution field that the automation is a little funky and it maybe needs some attention.
00:09:06.953 --> 00:09:20.557
That's not like directly really impacting too much right now, but if I don't get that figured out, like that could make reporting complicated later we would just carve out like five hours of time to work on building out an automation further.
00:09:20.557 --> 00:09:22.947
That could save us an additional 10 hours a month.
00:09:22.947 --> 00:09:33.973
Like those are the things that like I think what you're talking about like it's the time savings, the efficiency and, yeah, like that falls in.
00:09:33.973 --> 00:09:34.617
Like that five to 10%.
00:09:34.617 --> 00:09:36.429
Like it's not directly seen in like revenue impact, but it's got to happen at some point.
00:09:36.850 --> 00:09:38.355
Indirect impact on.
00:09:38.355 --> 00:09:45.255
I think of it as I'm going to think about profitability, just because I tend to think about both revenue and the cost structure that affects that.
00:09:45.255 --> 00:09:54.341
So in terms of the prioritization, to me they're like prioritization is one thing but then deciding you've got this list of things in there prioritize, say you're.
00:09:54.341 --> 00:10:03.023
You happen to be at the time when you're trying to plan things out, that you're heavy on the things that are the medium to high side of effort.
00:10:03.023 --> 00:10:16.000
How do you think about choosing the right mix of low, medium, high effort kinds of things into the available capacity that the team has?
00:10:17.192 --> 00:10:40.504
I was doing this a little bit with the math like that I was talking about of like kind of the available hours that we have saved, like we have five things on the backlog that are really low lift but like high impact, like really small changes that could make a huge difference, like I'm going to try to attack those first, because those are quick wins that can like help us improve a lot of things later.
00:10:41.290 --> 00:11:11.274
But in terms of like medium, I think, like keeping that under control, maybe four, like I try to think about things in terms of like weeks and the amount of time we have in a given week, like keeping that under like maybe three to four a month of like medium lift things, and then the high lift things need to be like two or less, and so, as I'm like trying to pace those out, it all just depends, too, about the individual, especially when you think about implementations or like massive data cleanup projects or anything like that.
00:11:12.155 --> 00:11:22.380
But it's also just understanding that things need to happen in an order, especially when the end goal is cleaning up your CRM.
00:11:22.380 --> 00:11:33.360
There are probably five different projects that are encompassed in that and they all need to go in a really specific order to make things run smoothly and to make your life easier as you're going along the way.
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:39.759
So it's trying to like, have that force to like look ahead and see, like, okay, if I, this is the final place I want to get to.
00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:41.630
What is everything involved in that?
00:11:41.630 --> 00:11:44.100
To get there and pacing those projects out?
00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:46.206
But being reasonable about it too.
00:11:46.206 --> 00:11:56.100
And sometimes you don't know until you start actually scoping out a project of like oh, this is way more than I originally thought it was, and then you just need to adjust the dates of the future projects too.
00:11:56.870 --> 00:12:00.115
So one last question on this, and then you said something I want to pick up on.
00:12:00.115 --> 00:12:09.396
When it comes to scoping these do you have, do you do this like in some sort of formal, semi-formal way, where you're scoring things, which I've done?
00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:21.540
or are you doing it a little more just based on experience and intuition about so I had?
00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:23.329
I spent some time at a HubSpot agency earlier in my career.
00:12:23.329 --> 00:12:27.536
Weirdly, having agency experience makes you think of things in terms of time.
00:12:27.536 --> 00:12:33.972
So it's like everything that goes into building a landing page, start to finish, everything that goes into building a dashboard, depending on the client's needs.
00:12:33.972 --> 00:12:45.343
I know that it takes me roughly under half an hour to build an email, start to finish, qa it, QA the list and get a test sent out to the stakeholder.
00:12:45.343 --> 00:12:48.516
I kept track of those things over time.
00:12:48.516 --> 00:12:53.312
So I have a rough estimate running in my head and that's how I'll scope things out.
00:12:53.312 --> 00:12:59.680
And that's how I definitely remember we would scope things out at the agency too is just like this is the rough time estimate.
00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:05.260
You put in a little bit of buffer in case something goes weird or wrong, of course, but yeah, that's how I do that.
00:13:05.750 --> 00:13:08.915
Okay, so for the things that are fairly common, you probably have a rule like.
00:13:08.915 --> 00:13:13.884
This is what we generally expect it to take you spend a little more time on things that are outside the norm.
00:13:14.409 --> 00:13:19.442
Yeah, Thing to do with implementing something new If I haven't implemented it before.
00:13:19.442 --> 00:13:21.375
You just try to go piece by piece.
00:13:21.375 --> 00:13:22.597
I need to do the integration.
00:13:22.597 --> 00:13:25.932
I need to map the value Like this is how many values I need to map.
00:13:25.932 --> 00:13:29.120
This is the enablement that needs to be scheduled for the team.
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:34.049
It's like trying to think it piece by piece and sometimes you're going to miss stuff for sure, yeah, always.
00:13:34.230 --> 00:13:36.958
But yeah, and it really does come from.
00:13:36.958 --> 00:13:49.036
I think I'm still relatively very early in my ops career, but I've seen a few different scenarios a few different times now and I'm like, okay, I have a sense for how much time this should take.
00:13:49.850 --> 00:13:54.196
Yeah, kind of a rule of thumb, right, no matter where you okay.
00:13:54.196 --> 00:14:04.735
So you said something about realistic, about what things are going to take, and then you actually mentioned, like, intentionally building in a buffer for even common thing, which gets it One of the things.
00:14:04.735 --> 00:14:15.516
I think a lot of people in this space me included, right, I tend to maybe be overly optimistic about what can be done, basically, maybe because I think of, like, everyone should be as efficient or as good as me.
00:14:15.516 --> 00:14:21.429
Right, it sounds so arrogant, but which is no longer the case like, if you asked me to go build an email, I would struggle today.
00:14:21.429 --> 00:14:23.678
So, like, how do you think about that?
00:14:23.678 --> 00:14:29.299
What do you do to keep yourself from getting too optimistic and making sure that you're doing that not only for yourself but for their team?
00:14:30.132 --> 00:14:32.059
fully and to be fully transparent.
00:14:32.059 --> 00:14:34.487
I was just overly optimistic last week, I think.
00:14:34.487 --> 00:14:37.293
I go through these ebbs and flows constantly.
00:14:38.115 --> 00:14:48.791
Do you major swing Is the variance from the line I can sometimes only if I'm being super stubborn, like no, I said I was going to do these things this week.
00:14:48.791 --> 00:14:52.057
It's my own fault that I underestimated how much time this is going to take.
00:14:52.057 --> 00:14:57.692
So I definitely get caught in that just being stubborn and then saying I didn't estimate properly.
00:14:57.692 --> 00:14:59.679
This is what happens when you don't estimate properly.
00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:07.991
But at the same time, I think sometimes you get into projects and they just take way longer than you could have ever.
00:15:07.991 --> 00:15:16.345
If you uncover something and you're like I wasn't expecting that it's an additional 10 hours to go through the data in a different way or slice things in it.
00:15:16.345 --> 00:15:20.991
Look at the automation, because you found other automation that was related to something you thought was standalone.
00:15:21.453 --> 00:15:24.461
Home repair shows where they open up the walls and there's water damage.
00:15:25.471 --> 00:15:33.584
Yes, exactly Trying to be realistic is week over week, like look at your calendar the next week.
00:15:33.584 --> 00:15:39.882
Is there work that's going to potentially come out of some of those meetings that you may need to address right away.
00:15:39.882 --> 00:15:44.040
I think that's where building in more buffers.
00:15:44.040 --> 00:15:50.543
Sometimes 20% is not enough, especially when you're a builder and also like a strategic person at the same time.
00:15:50.543 --> 00:15:53.418
Sometimes that 20% of unplanned time is not enough.
00:15:53.418 --> 00:15:56.518
It's a good rule of thumb and like that's what I operate on.
00:15:56.518 --> 00:16:01.896
Sometimes you're just going to get overly optimistic, no matter what, and it's going to happen to us.
00:16:01.896 --> 00:16:09.212
But being realistic, I think, is being super intentional with your calendar and being realistic with your time, like the time you have.
00:16:09.252 --> 00:16:10.738
Your time changes every single week.
00:16:16.870 --> 00:16:22.707
Like the priorities of the business could change, you know, in a week, in two weeks, right, or there's an intense period in a campaign or a project or some sort Right, yeah, yeah, a couple follow-up things.
00:16:22.727 --> 00:16:34.853
So one, when you had that example where you under, maybe underestimated something or whatever and you did the heroic thing and completed what you said you were going to complete on or close to the time you said.
00:16:34.853 --> 00:16:44.821
Do you then go back and clarify with whoever it was for let's assume it was some sort of request from somebody to make sure that they know that?
00:16:45.149 --> 00:17:13.254
oh, actually, the next time you ask for something like this is probably going to be longer because, yeah, okay, a hundred percent because, like I learned in that process too, if the teams that you're working with don't understand what they're asking of you, I think that's where you know sometimes if you, if you do the heroic thing and just get it done, it's like oh, it wasn't too bad right and you can convince yourself it was quick and easy, it wasn't a big deal, it's totally fine, I got it.
00:17:14.016 --> 00:17:18.237
And then you remember it later and you're like, oh, I need to account for more time to do this next time.
00:17:18.237 --> 00:17:20.151
Sometimes you just don't know until you know.
00:17:20.151 --> 00:17:23.477
Communicating, over-communicating is really important there.
00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:39.172
Yeah, I think, being very honest and direct about it right, and in some degree, like I think I would be like take ownership right, like I did this because I told you I would do it and that's what I truly thought it was going to be.
00:17:39.172 --> 00:17:44.653
At the same time, like I've learned now that, um, sexually, he's going to like for this in the future.
00:17:44.653 --> 00:17:55.163
If we want to do him so I think it's worth having going through the maybe what might feel like humbling or tail between the leg kind of conversation.
00:17:55.324 --> 00:18:03.329
Yeah, and I've been going through that, I think, a lot just in the last few months, just making a transition from marketing ops to rev ops.
00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:06.579
There are things that I understand, the basis of what I need to do.
00:18:06.579 --> 00:18:23.173
I have the technical skill and ability to do these things, but some of these projects it's my first time doing them before I can do my best to estimate, but it's like that's where it's constantly like learning and it's being as real as you can, but sometimes you're still going to be like well underestimated.
00:18:23.173 --> 00:18:23.796
That one, yeah.
00:18:24.317 --> 00:18:25.780
So I think that's part of learning right.
00:18:26.109 --> 00:18:30.958
Yeah, that's just growing in your career, I think, and doing new things and doing hard things.
00:18:31.199 --> 00:18:34.423
Yeah, so you've got a team.
00:18:34.423 --> 00:18:44.014
Now, a lot of what we've talked about so far is, especially if you're a team of one, or even just a really small team, right where you're mostly a heavy player and coach.
00:18:44.014 --> 00:18:47.101
It's a matter of managing your own time.
00:18:47.101 --> 00:18:50.499
Yeah, hopefully having some control over your own calendar.
00:18:50.499 --> 00:19:03.018
But then when you start having a team, how are you trying to help the team overall manage the priorities and the commitments, and maybe even helping them manage their own time and calendar personally?
00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:11.259
I ask a lot because I make educated guesses on what's realistic, um, you know, especially for somebody.
00:19:11.259 --> 00:19:15.296
But in reality something could take me 45 minutes and take another person 20 minutes.
00:19:15.296 --> 00:19:20.434
Everybody works at different speeds sometimes, so I always ask is this realistic?
00:19:20.434 --> 00:19:23.259
Is this due date realistic?
00:19:23.259 --> 00:19:24.943
Is this timeline realistic?
00:19:24.943 --> 00:19:26.273
This is what I think is involved.
00:19:26.273 --> 00:19:27.336
Am I missing anything?
00:19:27.336 --> 00:19:35.143
Am I not thinking of something Never being so far removed that you lose the thought of how much work is this for somebody else?
00:19:35.143 --> 00:19:38.721
And like, did I give them knowing, like rough idea of their calendar?
00:19:38.721 --> 00:19:42.437
What other priorities, what other things are due around the same time?
00:19:42.437 --> 00:19:45.075
What could go wrong with those things that are happening at the same time?
00:19:45.075 --> 00:19:46.116
But am I being realistic?
00:19:46.116 --> 00:19:46.778
Am I being fair?
00:19:46.778 --> 00:19:48.642
I ask that a lot.
00:19:49.103 --> 00:19:55.918
Yeah, I'm a big fan of a certain personal time management approach, right Based on Franklin Covey model.
00:19:55.918 --> 00:19:59.178
Do you use anything like that for your personal time management?
00:19:59.339 --> 00:19:59.800
What is that?
00:19:59.800 --> 00:20:01.115
I'm sure I have a rough idea.
00:20:01.115 --> 00:20:01.778
I might know.
00:20:02.089 --> 00:20:06.000
Well so, if you're familiar with the seven habits of highly effective people, yes.
00:20:06.521 --> 00:20:06.721
Okay.
00:20:06.721 --> 00:20:10.692
So Stephen Covey wrote that Yep, so Franklin Covey planners.
00:20:10.692 --> 00:20:16.975
I had one for years, probably somewhere sitting in the stack of stuff around my feet because I'm so organized.
00:20:16.975 --> 00:20:24.720
It was all paper-based right, but part of it was it was very much about integrating scheduled things and like to-dos right.
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:33.224
I think a lot of people struggle with if it's the to-dos don't get handled, especially if you don't manage your calendar right, because you need to allocate time to do them, even small things.
00:20:33.224 --> 00:20:38.387
So it's a framework for managing that and a lot of it's based on principles from the seven habits.
00:20:38.387 --> 00:20:39.788
It's not the only one right.
00:20:39.788 --> 00:20:41.349
I mean.
00:20:41.349 --> 00:20:42.752
There are other ways of doing it.
00:20:42.752 --> 00:20:50.318
There are certainly ways for doing prioritization of action items or to-dos that are personal, like Eisenhower matrix and things like that.
00:20:52.710 --> 00:21:04.683
I don't use a specific framework, but I found something that works for me and that's stacking a lot of my meetings like towards the beginning of the week, because I realized some people can multitask really well.
00:21:05.790 --> 00:21:06.192
Some people.
00:21:06.312 --> 00:21:08.337
I can't focus on more than one thing at a time.
00:21:08.337 --> 00:21:12.932
But with that being said, that's kind of the point is I need focus time.
00:21:12.932 --> 00:21:16.420
I can't like if I have 15 minutes in between my next meeting.
00:21:16.420 --> 00:21:22.671
I had a boss one time and she was I mean, she's incredible Like one of the best people I've ever had the pleasure to work for.
00:21:22.671 --> 00:21:27.992
She could just do all these like with 15, like in between meetings or 30 minutes and like she was so efficient.
00:21:27.992 --> 00:21:34.327
But I really overthink things sometimes and I know that I do that.
00:21:34.327 --> 00:21:42.678
So I've got to have at least an hour block if I want to do something productive, and so what I've started doing is having like larger blocks in the morning.
00:21:42.678 --> 00:21:44.041
My brain works best in the morning.
00:21:44.041 --> 00:21:47.115
I'm an early morning person.
00:21:48.117 --> 00:21:48.980
This is why we get alone.
00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:58.939
Like I know some people that they can think really well on deep projects like late at night, and I'm just like I am in bed by eight.
00:21:58.939 --> 00:22:03.960
I'm asleep by 8 30, like that's how I function I wish I could say that so.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:12.065
so the early morning stuff like sometimes I will do a few things before work hours if I need, like, absolute quiet and I need to focus on something.
00:22:12.065 --> 00:22:21.152
But starting to block my calendar from nine to 11 ish to try to have real deep focus time, I've been able to get some really cool stuff done.
00:22:21.452 --> 00:22:41.423
It's trying to understand yourself and it's your calendar that helps you control your calendar, which I have regularly tried to like block time on a daily basis, and then shit comes up and I, I get, I give in, I give in, yeah, so yeah, if you like, started to train the rest of the people that you work with.
00:22:41.423 --> 00:22:42.853
Like, this is my focus time.
00:22:42.853 --> 00:22:49.935
So, unless it's really really you know, honor this for me please, so I can get big, like big, deep thinking stuff done yeah it.
00:22:49.955 --> 00:22:54.462
It's like I when I started requesting teammates, like hey, can I move this call?
00:22:54.462 --> 00:22:55.285
Can I move this call?
00:22:55.285 --> 00:23:08.629
I'm trying to have blocks of time where I can just focus on projects, like basically, I'll get all the to-dos from the meeting like early in the week, and then I've got time to do the things that I anticipated correctly of, like what's going to come out of those meetings.
00:23:08.629 --> 00:23:24.615
I actually have time to do the things and it's like it's not perfect and I am not perfect at this, but this is what I try to do and I think I can roughly do it like 75% of the time, and so it allows me to be productive in a way that like is helpful for me.
00:23:24.615 --> 00:23:31.921
I'm like I'm using my best brain time on meetings in the morning, like something's got to give, and so I started moving things around a little.
00:23:36.029 --> 00:23:37.715
We joked one time it was back when I worked at the agency.
00:23:37.715 --> 00:23:41.307
Actually I told someone one time I'm like I do my best automation at like 530 in the morning.
00:23:41.307 --> 00:23:43.354
It's just better, my brain's just sharper.
00:23:43.354 --> 00:23:44.877
I've had my first cup of coffee.
00:23:44.877 --> 00:23:46.281
I'm happy about the day.
00:23:46.730 --> 00:23:53.183
So what's really interesting to me is like I don't think a lot of people pay attention to those signals from their bodies.
00:23:53.183 --> 00:23:55.175
Everybody is a little different.
00:23:55.175 --> 00:23:56.532
This is one of the things.
00:23:56.532 --> 00:24:00.998
Instagram, tiktok oh, do this, get up at five in the morning.
00:24:00.998 --> 00:24:02.060
It doesn't work for everybody.
00:24:02.792 --> 00:24:03.797
I'm an early morning person.
00:24:03.797 --> 00:24:05.908
I also struggle in the middle of the afternoon.
00:24:05.908 --> 00:24:07.998
If we weren't talking, I would be really struggling.
00:24:07.998 --> 00:24:09.555
It's mid-afternoon for me.
00:24:09.555 --> 00:24:14.453
It's warm, but then I'll get another boost of energy in the late evening.
00:24:14.453 --> 00:24:17.141
So the problem for me is like sleep is a problem for me.
00:24:17.141 --> 00:24:20.056
Right, that's like, but I, it's just how my body works.
00:24:20.056 --> 00:24:21.899
But I think a lot of people don't pay like.
00:24:21.899 --> 00:24:31.575
If they paid more attention to that and then try to take back a little more control and actually had the again, it kind of comes back to being transparent with the people you work with.
00:24:31.575 --> 00:24:34.782
If you want the best for me, like this is what I think will work best.
00:24:34.782 --> 00:24:37.660
I think your point about like the goal is not a hundred percent.
00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:42.037
The goal is whatever, 75%, 50%, like, don't overdo it.
00:24:42.790 --> 00:24:44.096
It's something to work towards.
00:24:44.096 --> 00:24:54.666
Another thing about the planning and all the project management stuff too I'm like sometimes they were just made quickly from a meeting and I'm like I got to do that by Friday and I know I do, but it's going to take me maybe 45 minutes.
00:24:54.666 --> 00:25:06.042
Those larger projects, like those big rocks that are like related to your KPIs, like they require very thoughtful consideration and like time on the calendar that's needed and necessary for them.
00:25:07.809 --> 00:25:13.940
Okay, so, all that said, right, then, how do you?
00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:31.405
I think there's two variants of this, and we could cover one at a time if you want, but there's, like we all have experience where you get unexpected high-priority requests or ones that that someone thinks are urgent and high priority, but maybe right.
00:25:31.405 --> 00:25:32.627
How do you handle those?
00:25:32.627 --> 00:25:38.366
Both in terms of like, how do you handle reacting to those and assessing which of those they fall into?
00:25:38.366 --> 00:25:41.962
And then, second, like, how do you then both like?
00:25:41.962 --> 00:25:43.066
I think there's two parts to this.
00:25:43.066 --> 00:25:45.241
Right, you're gonna have to adjust what you've committed to.
00:25:45.241 --> 00:25:47.972
Probably, maybe, if you're able to.
00:25:47.972 --> 00:25:48.955
Sometimes you can't.
00:25:48.955 --> 00:25:54.387
This is where you put in extra effort and you need to communicate what that impact is to others who things might be affected.
00:25:55.335 --> 00:26:15.549
Yeah, with those, the urgent requests that come in, I the first thing I think about is, if I don't get this done in the next handful of days, or two to three days, like whatever it is that the person asked for, like from the urgency point of view, is that going to affect pipeline?
00:26:15.549 --> 00:26:18.532
Is it going to affect business that we can win?
00:26:18.532 --> 00:26:23.302
Is it like, what is it going to affect if I delay it more?
00:26:23.302 --> 00:26:29.020
So, like, sometimes I can make that choice and I ask for a.
00:26:29.020 --> 00:26:35.085
I'm like you know, ask for a different date, you know live date on the task versus what was asked for.
00:26:35.085 --> 00:26:45.417
If you're not sure, there is nothing wrong with asking your boss, your manager, like there's, there's nothing wrong with that at all, and I actually do that often.
00:26:46.038 --> 00:26:52.690
I think, when I'm not a hundred percent, sure% sure, I'll build out a list.
00:26:52.690 --> 00:26:58.587
I'm like okay, if we want to get this done by Friday, say, if it's a Monday, I want to get this done by Friday.
00:26:58.587 --> 00:27:00.396
Here's what I'm thinking.
00:27:00.396 --> 00:27:07.774
I need to deprioritize in order to do that and to have time to do it, and I'll literally just send that as a message.
00:27:07.774 --> 00:27:10.585
Is there anything I'm misreading or misjudging here?
00:27:10.585 --> 00:27:13.383
And that's a completely okay approach to do that.
00:27:13.383 --> 00:27:21.687
We have a rough idea of what should be pushed aside, like what can be lower priority, but sometimes, depending on the week and what's going on, sometimes I'm not sure.
00:27:21.687 --> 00:27:23.295
I just need a gut check.
00:27:23.295 --> 00:27:26.337
This is what I think, but I need somebody's feedback.
00:27:26.357 --> 00:27:31.182
Sometimes I think, if your experience is like mine, sometimes you go through that list and you're like actually nothing can push.
00:27:31.201 --> 00:27:32.384
And that's just how it is sometimes.
00:27:33.064 --> 00:27:33.243
Yeah.
00:27:33.545 --> 00:27:34.985
Yeah, and that's okay too.
00:27:34.985 --> 00:27:57.570
And you know what, when stuff like that happens, make sure you have a couple of things planned that week, like outside of work, that you are looking forward to, that make you happy, that are important to you, like say you know what, I'm going to make this really big push on this project and like Friday morning I'm going to go get my favorite coffee from my favorite coffee shop, like that's what I've done.
00:27:57.570 --> 00:28:16.038
That it's like you know, like I had a teammate, like she said one time she's like always have something to look forward to because, like you know, sometimes we work really hard, like all of us work really hard in our jobs, and like we want to do good things, we want to do good quality things and sometimes like that extra time.
00:28:16.038 --> 00:28:20.019
Sometimes it all does have to get done, but if you're saying like I'm going to reward myself, like for all you know, extra hard work, it's just the little things in life.
00:28:20.161 --> 00:28:23.096
Yeah, that's not what I thought you were going to say, because I don't think it's a bad thing.
00:28:23.096 --> 00:28:26.681
This is something I struggled with until later in my career.
00:28:26.681 --> 00:28:41.257
But I think it's important to be vocal about the heroics that you just did, right, make sure people know that this was above and beyond the norm, so that it's not perceived as the way it's just going to be.
00:28:41.257 --> 00:28:46.715
For two reasons One, like you should be proud of that when it goes well.
00:28:46.715 --> 00:28:54.951
Just like feel badly if you have any care about the work at all, if you didn't do something, you might as well get the credit for doing heroic stuff too.
00:28:54.951 --> 00:28:56.376
I don't think enough of us do enough.
00:28:56.376 --> 00:29:00.096
Like I think we just there's a lot of people who are probably listening and I was this way too.
00:29:00.096 --> 00:29:04.899
Like this is just part, this is just part of the job, right, and yes, that may be true.
00:29:04.899 --> 00:29:09.404
At the same time, it doesn't mean that it's not out of the ordinary for what you should be expected.
00:29:10.625 --> 00:29:13.067
Yeah, and I think you bring up a really good point.
00:29:13.067 --> 00:29:16.131
Sometimes I'm just like nope, I needed to get this done.
00:29:16.131 --> 00:29:25.412
This week I sat on my couch with my little laptop desk early in the morning and I turned on New Girl and I had a good cup of coffee and I got the work done.
00:29:25.412 --> 00:29:32.741
You know a few mornings in a row to make sure it got done and sometimes you don't think about whoa, that was a lot Like.
00:29:32.741 --> 00:29:33.103
I did a lot there.
00:29:33.103 --> 00:29:34.209
That was good to accomplish that.
00:29:34.229 --> 00:29:35.315
So, it's a good reminder, thanks.
00:29:36.335 --> 00:29:41.537
Yeah, and I know like one thing I started doing I don't know how many years ago, especially as a leader.
00:29:41.537 --> 00:29:49.006
I would both do it for people on my team, but also for people who were on other teams that worked for me or did work I worked with.
00:29:49.006 --> 00:30:01.886
If I thought they had gone above and beyond, I would literally write an email to their boss telling them if it was somebody worked for me, I would send it to my boss right like talking about the the thing they had done.
00:30:01.886 --> 00:30:07.375
Um, because I think it's like I don't think people get enough of that right, especially in this world.
00:30:07.375 --> 00:30:10.519
It feels like you get attention when things don't go well, not when they do.
00:30:11.521 --> 00:30:11.863
For sure.
00:30:12.825 --> 00:30:16.697
So ninety, nine good things and one bad, and then that's the.
00:30:16.697 --> 00:30:19.625
That's when the guns are pointed at you, figuratively.
00:30:19.625 --> 00:30:20.997
Well, whenever.
00:30:21.076 --> 00:30:28.069
I think when you ask others that don't work in ops, how do you see operations as successful?
00:30:28.069 --> 00:30:37.076
And a lot of people will tell you when I don't know if anything wrong happened, If I don't hear anything, that's how I know it's working and it's like that is the truth of it.
00:30:37.076 --> 00:30:39.943
That's usually the way people think about it.
00:30:39.943 --> 00:30:46.320
So we are the behind the scenes automation process wizards.
00:30:47.522 --> 00:30:55.879
The only flaw in that is if people are talking about it negatively behind the scenes and you don't know about it, I can't do anything.
00:30:56.655 --> 00:31:00.604
OK, so true, yes and no, I don't totally agree.
00:31:00.604 --> 00:31:27.225
But I'll set that aside for now, because I think this next question I had may get into this a little bit, which is you and I have known each other for now for a while, and I think one of the things that you probably went through as a lot of people do, especially as they get in leadership kinds of roles is having to advocate for your team, and sometimes that means saying no to people and requests or not.
00:31:27.225 --> 00:31:29.341
Now, how have you gotten used to doing that?
00:31:29.341 --> 00:31:32.580
Do you have a general approach or does it case by case basis?
00:31:32.580 --> 00:31:34.285
Do you feel more comfortable with that now?
00:31:35.006 --> 00:31:37.196
No, I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with it.
00:31:37.196 --> 00:31:43.439
I still have to work on it like every day, and I think that's a me thing and I'm sure other people like feel that too.
00:31:43.439 --> 00:31:53.807
But when your personality can be geared toward just people pleasing in general, personally, professionally, it is just guilty.
00:31:54.855 --> 00:32:05.536
I'm so terrible, but I'm just like, oh, we could go to that restaurant Totally, and I just I will go with the flow and I don't like harbor any resentment from going with the flow.
00:32:05.536 --> 00:32:17.168
Like, want people others to be happy, but in my work, my work is so important to me, like I put so much of myself into that, and so I want people to be happy with my work.
00:32:17.168 --> 00:32:19.013
I want to make their jobs easier.
00:32:19.013 --> 00:32:25.208
I want to make their lives easier, and so I'm like, if I don't do this, what if it makes their life harder?
00:32:25.208 --> 00:32:26.377
What if it makes their job harder?
00:32:26.377 --> 00:32:28.383
And so I go through that thought process.
00:32:28.943 --> 00:32:43.790
But I think usually the advice that I've gotten from other ops folks and other leaders that I've talked to and so you know this is the, I think, best practice and what I'm still working on always is ask more questions.
00:32:43.790 --> 00:32:53.616
When someone asks you for something and it's like you're not necessarily sure if it should be prioritized or not, if it's something we should ever do or not.
00:32:53.616 --> 00:33:00.455
Ask the questions of like, by not having this, what is this not allowing you to do today?
00:33:00.455 --> 00:33:05.927
Is this affecting your team's ability to track their progress or reach their goals?
00:33:05.927 --> 00:33:09.581
Is it affecting, like our ability to build pipeline.
00:33:09.581 --> 00:33:10.963
Is it affecting our like?
00:33:10.963 --> 00:33:13.288
There are so many questions that you could start asking.
00:33:13.915 --> 00:33:26.262
So I'll do like a 15 minute conversation with someone when they submit, like we have I made like a Slack request channel where they like submit a little form and then I can easily make the task in Asana and I like having that little queue system.
00:33:26.262 --> 00:33:34.766
But usually when someone submits something and it's like something I need a little bit more information about, I'll book like 15 minutes with them just to talk about it.
00:33:34.766 --> 00:33:36.739
I'm like help me understand, like, what's going on.
00:33:36.739 --> 00:33:38.964
Like what is this hurting right now?
00:33:38.964 --> 00:33:40.759
Like how is this affecting your team?
00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:43.205
How is it affecting, like you know, your day to day?
00:33:43.205 --> 00:33:58.556
Because I think the better I can understand that I can sympathize and understand like how prior know high priority is this and usually by getting someone to talk about it, they can also realize if it's not the highest priority thing in the world or not.
00:33:58.796 --> 00:34:13.439
Um, it's trying to make each party understand it a little bit more yeah, I think the idea of having this is the value of having some sort of cue and a form, kind of like there's still people who tend to not go through that process, right?
00:34:13.579 --> 00:34:41.301
sure ceo vp, like what they're going to come to you maybe like directly, and so the one I think suggestion I would have in those cases, like your thoughts on this is because you may not be ready for that, they may not have the questions ready at hand is just to maybe ask for clarification, understand the scope of it, but then ask for some time to consider it and become back with more questions right before committing to anything.
00:34:41.795 --> 00:34:58.143
Yeah, I think that's a great idea, cause then that's how you also avoid situations of fighting off more than you need to at one time say, yep, I'll get that to you Thursday, I'll get that to you Friday, and then, like, you get to it and you're like I should have thought through this a little bit more.
00:34:58.715 --> 00:35:02.855
And even if you're not given because they still believe it's a super high urgent thing, right.
00:35:02.855 --> 00:35:07.367
Even if you get a few hours, that can be enough, right.
00:35:07.367 --> 00:35:13.278
That obviously might affect what your day was planned out to be and the things that you were going to do during that time.
00:35:14.040 --> 00:35:32.197
Yeah, but if you got put in that position and you had to commit right there and then that totally shoots the entire week, right rails thing it gives you a chance to put some thought around it, to clarify your understanding, any outstanding questions and then also the impact right, which, which is the part that gets missed.
00:35:32.197 --> 00:35:39.223
There are people out there, I'm sure, who have this great memory for everything that's in the queue right and it's active, but that is not me.
00:35:39.223 --> 00:35:40.916
I'd want to be able to go back and look at that.
00:35:40.916 --> 00:35:46.858
Most people that I've encountered not all, but most are reasonable about it, right, they give you a little bit of time to do that.
00:35:47.419 --> 00:35:59.248
Yeah, Just to think through it, Cause I'm a lot of time only if there are things that we've done on repeat, like those repeatable processes that we have like ingrained in our brain, like how long it'll take you.
00:35:59.248 --> 00:36:17.431
But if someone's asking you to do something new, like I think that's a great idea to just take the time, take a couple hours, go write it on a piece of paper, draw it out see how long it will realistically take to do this and that way, you're properly setting expectations too yeah, when I think this does, it signals some maturity, right, and
00:36:18.597 --> 00:36:21.303
not immediate reaction I think we all have heard right.
00:36:21.303 --> 00:36:31.468
A lot of people in marketing ops in particular say like they feel like they're just task takers or task doers, and some of that perception can be changed.
00:36:31.468 --> 00:36:36.500
If you do that Now, just saying no flat out right, that's not going to do it.
00:36:36.500 --> 00:36:37.941
That will not end well either.
00:36:37.941 --> 00:36:47.324
You can't go all the way to the other extreme, but there is a place in the middle that if you're not used to doing it right, it's going to take some time to figure out how to do it well.
00:36:47.826 --> 00:36:55.637
Yeah, like my version of that right now.
00:36:55.637 --> 00:37:05.897
When someone tells me like something is medium or low priority and ask when do we think we can get to this, I say I need to look at the rest of our backlog and I need to look at the rest of our planned projects and I will get back to you as soon as I have an estimated date and we'll talk more then.
00:37:06.217 --> 00:37:07.720
I just can't bring myself to say no.
00:37:07.901 --> 00:37:12.169
I just say not yet, not right now, but we will totally talk about it very soon.
00:37:12.169 --> 00:37:19.303
I usually try to talk about it sometime in the next, you know, two to three weeks, because I don't want anyone to feel like their problem's not important or anything.
00:37:19.615 --> 00:37:22.164
But what you are saying is yes to considering it.
00:37:22.384 --> 00:37:32.449
Yep, consider everything, like every request, because no one's asking for something like unreasonable that it's not feasible as to why they would want something like that.
00:37:32.689 --> 00:37:37.425
Most of the time I haven't heard anything like that in my experience.
00:37:37.445 --> 00:37:49.103
So it's funny For a short period of my career I was in sales and one of the things I learned, or a mental model, is that when a prospect says no, the best salespeople don't hear.
00:37:49.103 --> 00:37:50.124
No, they hear not now.
00:37:50.124 --> 00:37:57.091
And I think the flip of that is if you're telling somebody not now, right, they're not hearing.
00:37:57.091 --> 00:37:59.560
No either, they're hearing there's a chance.
00:37:59.560 --> 00:38:09.682
And if you're, especially if you're saying not now, but I'll get back to you in X period of time to give you something more definitive, then a lot of people are just looking for that Now.
00:38:09.723 --> 00:38:27.579
Eventually you have to commit right, yeah, but I do need the time to think about it, because maybe there's, maybe there's a solution like already sort of in place that could help, like maybe there's something already available and I just don't know, um, and I need to go figure it out, right, but it's just giving yourself the time to think about it.
00:38:27.579 --> 00:38:29.664
It is a great approach to that.
00:38:30.626 --> 00:38:31.007
I love it.
00:38:31.007 --> 00:38:36.747
I think this has been a great conversation that a lot of our folks in our audience are going to get a lot of benefit from.
00:38:36.747 --> 00:38:38.079
So thank you, carissa.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:49.201
Yeah, so if folks do want to reach out to you or learn more about what you're doing, or if you're active, you are in the community or on social media but what's the best way for them to do that?
00:38:49.783 --> 00:38:55.840
Yeah, you can send me a LinkedIn connection request.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:56.382
My name is Carissa McCall.
00:38:56.382 --> 00:38:57.206
I am the director of RevOps at Liquibase.
00:38:57.206 --> 00:38:59.636
You can go to the Liquibase company page and probably find me that way too.
00:39:00.238 --> 00:39:00.739
There you go.
00:39:00.739 --> 00:39:02.262
All right, awesome Again.
00:39:02.262 --> 00:39:03.024
Thank you, carissa.
00:39:03.024 --> 00:39:12.829
Thanks to all of our long-time and new-term listeners and soon-to-be watchers, so we appreciate your support, as always.
00:39:12.829 --> 00:39:20.181
If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, mike or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling on that Until next time.
00:39:20.181 --> 00:39:20.722
Bye, everybody.