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Hey everyone.
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I'm Tony Edward and I'm Amanda Warcraft.
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And we're recording at the Salona Policy Summit today and
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joining us is Miller white House Levine, who is the
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CEO of the Salona Policy Institute.
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Miller, great to have you. Thank you for having me.
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Miller told spit about yourself and what led to the
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founding of the Salona Policy Institute.
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A bit of a long story.
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I'll try to keep it brief, but I originally got
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interested into crypto for I would say ideological reasons. So
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I was living in China twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. I
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was very young, and it was a you know, I think,
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a formative moment in my life. And at the time,
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living in China, it felt very different than living in
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southern California, Los Angeles from a political perspective, like you
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can really feel the presence of the government there and
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I think a way that at least was not the
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same in the United States at the time twenty thirteen,
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twenty fourteen. So at the same time, these crazy expats
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in Beijing like you should think about this crypto called bitcoin,
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and I was like, oh, what's that? And it really
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grabbed me I think the idea that a technology can
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empower individuals via v institutions, be them businesses or governments,
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is a really powerful one and I think an outlier
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in the history of technological development over the last fifty years, honestly,
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So I think it's decentralization based on public blockchains is
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a very potent concept, and I think force in the
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world for individual empowerment. So that's why I originally got interested.
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I'm too stupid to be an engineer, so I have
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to do something less big brain, which is what brought
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me to policy work. So after college started working at
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the Blockchain Association for Kristen Smith, my current colleague then
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was that an organization called the DeFi Education Fund, which
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was really focused on DeFi specific and DeFi developer issues.
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And then last year, you know, we saw in my view,
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a vacuum and a need for ecosystem advocacy, not because
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of any anyone's like out to get Solona or any
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other ecosystem, but because policy decisions have to be based
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on technological understanding, and if that doesn't exist, you can,
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you know, things can go hey wire quickly. So we
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set up SBI to get after that problem and try
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to get you know, the good news about Salon out
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to policymakers around the world and about a year and now,
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can you give.
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Us the status of where things stand with those Salona
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spot ETFs. I know you were on Crypto and America
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not too long ago and you had mentioned the paperwork
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was filed that you definitely wanted to involve staking as
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part of that. But we're I know, there's kind of
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nuance and how because the SEC is pushing back on
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yielding as part of that launching these these ETFs, So
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where where do where do you stand with that? With
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the regulatory framework.
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Being what it is.
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So these spotytvs are already live, which is great news,
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and those launched in October. So I think that was
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the big, the big threshold the moment. And now there
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are specific issues around staking and how to treat that
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really for tax purposes is the big one within ETP products.
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So I think, you know, it gets complicated quickly, but
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they're like weird tax rules that need to be resolved
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such that ETPs can pass staking rewards back to their
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holders without it creating an insane tax burden. So I
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think that you know, it's it's kind of makes sense,
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Like it's not really a controversial policy change. It just
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has to get done by IRS to make it work.
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So I think that'll ab and it just you know,
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isn't super controversial. It's just very complicated on the tax side.
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And some of these things you have to think through
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the implications outside of crypto, like, okay, if we ask
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aaking rewards within ETPs, what's that gonna you know, unleash
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in traditional markets. I don't think they're those issues. So
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it's it seems like we're right on the CUSP. But yes,
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they did launch in October I believe, and it might
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have been September, but have have been training since and
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I think they're about eleven or twelve.
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Now, how's the Salona Policy Institute engaging with the SEC
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and the CFTC to get rule making and things along
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those lines.
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Yes, so rule making is important, Like the agencies can
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do a ton. There's a lot of focus on Congress
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and you know, Lord Willing, the Clarity Act will pass
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and we will not have to do you know, a
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ninth and tenth year of market structure debates because I'm
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sick of sick of them at this point. But there's
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a whole host of stuff that the SEC and CFTC
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are already working on that are squarely within their own authority.
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The two big ones that we've been focused or I
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suppose the efforts at CFTC and SEC we've been focused
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on I collectively refer to as the innovation exemptions. So
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on the SEC side, there was a big development this
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morning that's somewhat related, so it's good timing. But the
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vision is we have these amazing public blockchains that allow
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anyone in the world to participate in these markets, and
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any asset in the world should be able to be
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traded and purchased and used on these blockchains. That's inclusive
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of securities, tokenized securities, be it Apple stock or you know,
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Miller wants to issue debt in Miller Inc.
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You know, what have you, You should be able to
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do it.
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So the idea is the SEC needs to make that
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possible by tweaking their regulatory framework. So how can you,
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for example, have a stock tokenized stock in your cell
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posted ballet. How can you then go and use a
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DeFi protocol to trade it on a peer to peer
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basis with a counterparty? How does that fit within the
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existing regulatory regime. It looks a lot different than how
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trading happens on the New York Stock Exchange today, and
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so that's what the SEC is working through and on
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front ends, they answered a lot of those questions this
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morning under what conditions that is possible, so you know,
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they're really getting after it. So that's on the one
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side at the SEC, and we're hoping to do the
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same at the CFTC for on chain derivatives markets. Today,
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to trade derivatives on chain, you have to be an
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x US person, not not in the United States, and
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that shouldn't be the case. The CFTC wants to create
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a pathway to compliance such that if you want to
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go ahead and you know, trade derivatives or purchase derivatives
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on chain, you can do so alongside your traditional intermediaries
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or you know, centralized intermediaries. I think the SEC and
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CFTC are committed to giving consumers choice and they can
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engage with these products and use them in whichever way
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they're most comfortable. So those are the two big initiatives,
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you know. I think the SEC is on the brink
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of releasing this hopefully before before May. But we'll see CFTC.
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You know, they're really just getting getting started since cher
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Sealy was confirmed in December, So I think, you know,
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have a bit more time to a bit more would
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to chop, so to speak, but I think we'll move expeditiously.
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So it's you know, I have to pinch myself every
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time I talk about this because imagine like eighteen months
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talking about the SEC allowing US equities trading in in DeFi,
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and you know someone would laugh at you, if not
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just you know, shoot you on the spot.
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From where you sit. Where does Salona benefit from this
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new regulatory framework compared to other blockchains?
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Well, you know why I started using Solana and got
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interested in it, It's because it's fast and cheap. Like,
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as an individual, I'm not sending or engaging in transactions
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that are tens of thousands of dollars, and so a
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two dollars gas fee or a three dollars gas fee
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really mattered to me as an individual DeFi user, and Solona,
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you know, seeks to solve that problem by creating a
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super fast, super high bandwidth blockchain that anyone can use
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for fractions of So that's why I should are using Solana.
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And I think, you know, my thesis is not that
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any of these regulations ultimately benefit Solana in a way
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that is not in the interests of like another ecosystem.
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But I think Solana wins on its competitive advantages via
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VI these other chains for the same reasons that you know,
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I chose to be using it. So I think that
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as all of these new businesses and investors are able
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to operate on chain, they will come to a similar conclusion,
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which will of course be good for Solana.
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Miller Claritiac.
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Do you think that passes this year or are we
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heading into twenty twenty seven.
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I think it's going to pass this year.
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I have never been more hopeful, and I you know,
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I know, I've this is my first time on the podcast,
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but that has not been my view over the last
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eighteen months. I was a bit more skeptical than most,
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but I've had a change of heart and it really
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does feel like the momentums there, all the pieces are
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in place. As Patrick Wick just mentioned on stage, it's
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you know, a list of fifteen critical issues has been
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welled down to two or three critical issues. I didn't
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think we were going to get through you know, ten
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of those fifteen. So I haven't proven wrong, and I
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think the momentums there, it's the right time, so I hope,
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I hope it gets done.
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That would be awesome too.
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Yeah, Millard, thank you so much for your time. It
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was great having you.
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Thanks for having measure. Thank you.
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you so much for tuning in. Please hit the like
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follow and leave a five star rating. Thank you so much,
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Hey everyone.
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I'm Tony Edward and I'm Amanda Warcraft.
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And we're recording at the Salona Policy Summit today and
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joining us is Miller white House Levine, who is the
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CEO of the Salona Policy Institute.
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Miller, great to have you. Thank you for having me.
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Miller told spit about yourself and what led to the
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founding of the Salona Policy Institute.
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A bit of a long story.
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I'll try to keep it brief, but I originally got
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interested into crypto for I would say ideological reasons. So
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I was living in China twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. I
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was very young, and it was a you know, I think,
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a formative moment in my life. And at the time,
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living in China, it felt very different than living in
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southern California, Los Angeles from a political perspective, like you
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can really feel the presence of the government there and
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I think a way that at least was not the
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same in the United States at the time twenty thirteen,
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twenty fourteen. So at the same time, these crazy expats
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in Beijing like you should think about this crypto called bitcoin,
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and I was like, oh, what's that? And it really
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grabbed me I think the idea that a technology can
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empower individuals via v institutions, be them businesses or governments,
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is a really powerful one and I think an outlier
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in the history of technological development over the last fifty years, honestly,
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So I think it's decentralization based on public blockchains is
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a very potent concept, and I think force in the
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world for individual empowerment. So that's why I originally got interested.
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I'm too stupid to be an engineer, so I have
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to do something less big brain, which is what brought
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me to policy work. So after college started working at
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the Blockchain Association for Kristen Smith, my current colleague then
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was that an organization called the DeFi Education Fund, which
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was really focused on DeFi specific and DeFi developer issues.
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And then last year, you know, we saw in my view,
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a vacuum and a need for ecosystem advocacy, not because
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of any anyone's like out to get Solona or any
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other ecosystem, but because policy decisions have to be based
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on technological understanding, and if that doesn't exist, you can,
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you know, things can go hey wire quickly. So we
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set up SBI to get after that problem and try
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to get you know, the good news about Salon out
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to policymakers around the world and about a year and now,
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can you give.
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Us the status of where things stand with those Salona
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spot ETFs. I know you were on Crypto and America
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not too long ago and you had mentioned the paperwork
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was filed that you definitely wanted to involve staking as
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part of that. But we're I know, there's kind of
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nuance and how because the SEC is pushing back on
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yielding as part of that launching these these ETFs, So
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where where do where do you stand with that? With
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the regulatory framework.
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Being what it is.
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So these spotytvs are already live, which is great news,
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and those launched in October. So I think that was
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the big, the big threshold the moment. And now there
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are specific issues around staking and how to treat that
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really for tax purposes is the big one within ETP products.
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So I think, you know, it gets complicated quickly, but
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they're like weird tax rules that need to be resolved
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such that ETPs can pass staking rewards back to their
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holders without it creating an insane tax burden. So I
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think that you know, it's it's kind of makes sense,
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Like it's not really a controversial policy change. It just
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has to get done by IRS to make it work.
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So I think that'll ab and it just you know,
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isn't super controversial. It's just very complicated on the tax side.
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And some of these things you have to think through
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the implications outside of crypto, like, okay, if we ask
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aaking rewards within ETPs, what's that gonna you know, unleash
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in traditional markets. I don't think they're those issues. So
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it's it seems like we're right on the CUSP. But yes,
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they did launch in October I believe, and it might
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have been September, but have have been training since and
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I think they're about eleven or twelve.
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Now, how's the Salona Policy Institute engaging with the SEC
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and the CFTC to get rule making and things along
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those lines.
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Yes, so rule making is important, Like the agencies can
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do a ton. There's a lot of focus on Congress
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and you know, Lord Willing, the Clarity Act will pass
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and we will not have to do you know, a
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ninth and tenth year of market structure debates because I'm
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sick of sick of them at this point. But there's
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a whole host of stuff that the SEC and CFTC
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are already working on that are squarely within their own authority.
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The two big ones that we've been focused or I
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suppose the efforts at CFTC and SEC we've been focused
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on I collectively refer to as the innovation exemptions. So
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on the SEC side, there was a big development this
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morning that's somewhat related, so it's good timing. But the
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vision is we have these amazing public blockchains that allow
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anyone in the world to participate in these markets, and
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any asset in the world should be able to be
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traded and purchased and used on these blockchains. That's inclusive
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of securities, tokenized securities, be it Apple stock or you know,
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Miller wants to issue debt in Miller Inc.
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You know, what have you, You should be able to
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do it.
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So the idea is the SEC needs to make that
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possible by tweaking their regulatory framework. So how can you,
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for example, have a stock tokenized stock in your cell
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posted ballet. How can you then go and use a
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DeFi protocol to trade it on a peer to peer
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basis with a counterparty? How does that fit within the
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existing regulatory regime. It looks a lot different than how
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trading happens on the New York Stock Exchange today, and
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so that's what the SEC is working through and on
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front ends, they answered a lot of those questions this
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morning under what conditions that is possible, so you know,
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they're really getting after it. So that's on the one
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side at the SEC, and we're hoping to do the
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same at the CFTC for on chain derivatives markets. Today,
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to trade derivatives on chain, you have to be an
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x US person, not not in the United States, and
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that shouldn't be the case. The CFTC wants to create
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a pathway to compliance such that if you want to
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go ahead and you know, trade derivatives or purchase derivatives
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on chain, you can do so alongside your traditional intermediaries
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or you know, centralized intermediaries. I think the SEC and
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CFTC are committed to giving consumers choice and they can
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engage with these products and use them in whichever way
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they're most comfortable. So those are the two big initiatives,
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you know. I think the SEC is on the brink
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of releasing this hopefully before before May. But we'll see CFTC.
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You know, they're really just getting getting started since cher
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Sealy was confirmed in December, So I think, you know,
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have a bit more time to a bit more would
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to chop, so to speak, but I think we'll move expeditiously.
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So it's you know, I have to pinch myself every
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time I talk about this because imagine like eighteen months
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talking about the SEC allowing US equities trading in in DeFi,
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and you know someone would laugh at you, if not
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just you know, shoot you on the spot.
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From where you sit. Where does Salona benefit from this
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new regulatory framework compared to other blockchains?
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Well, you know why I started using Solana and got
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interested in it, It's because it's fast and cheap. Like,
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as an individual, I'm not sending or engaging in transactions
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that are tens of thousands of dollars, and so a
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two dollars gas fee or a three dollars gas fee
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really mattered to me as an individual DeFi user, and Solona,
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you know, seeks to solve that problem by creating a
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super fast, super high bandwidth blockchain that anyone can use
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for fractions of So that's why I should are using Solana.
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And I think, you know, my thesis is not that
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any of these regulations ultimately benefit Solana in a way
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that is not in the interests of like another ecosystem.
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But I think Solana wins on its competitive advantages via
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VI these other chains for the same reasons that you know,
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I chose to be using it. So I think that
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as all of these new businesses and investors are able
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to operate on chain, they will come to a similar conclusion,
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which will of course be good for Solana.
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Miller Claritiac.
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Do you think that passes this year or are we
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heading into twenty twenty seven.
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I think it's going to pass this year.
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I have never been more hopeful, and I you know,
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I know, I've this is my first time on the podcast,
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but that has not been my view over the last
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eighteen months. I was a bit more skeptical than most,
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but I've had a change of heart and it really
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does feel like the momentums there, all the pieces are
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in place. As Patrick Wick just mentioned on stage, it's
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you know, a list of fifteen critical issues has been
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welled down to two or three critical issues. I didn't
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think we were going to get through you know, ten
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of those fifteen. So I haven't proven wrong, and I
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think the momentums there, it's the right time, so I hope,
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I hope it gets done.
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That would be awesome too.
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Yeah, Millard, thank you so much for your time. It
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was great having you.
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Thanks for having measure. Thank you.
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