EP 3:13 Adverse Childhood Experiences and Chemsex Misuse with Kit

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Whenever having dependency on math, where it can um be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened in in those wounds.
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But um, but I think in in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process of being like, wow, you know, like there's another gray hair, like that that's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to to be getting to to this this point of the kind of shadow work of um of having addiction.
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Chemsex.
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Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and ghb, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Glad to have you here.
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Glad that you are continuing to listen, and we are continuing to see record numbers of downloads for the podcast.
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Really, really, really, really happy to see that.
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And a lot of new listeners to the podcast.
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So if you are brand new, welcome, welcome, welcome, welcome.
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We're glad that you've taken time out.
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There's a lot of podcasts to listen to, um, and you chose this one.
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So um, today I'm going to introduce a new friend of mine and our second trans person on the podcast.
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I've been really seeking and asking for more diversity on this podcast, and I'm getting it, and I'm really happy to hear that.
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But I'm going to introduce my friend Kit Morgan here.
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I'm going to read these, I'm going to read this bio.
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And I have been told that when I read the bios, it's I I need to practice it first because it I stumble through it.
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Um, so I did practice this one.
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So I'm going to see how well I do.
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So Kit Morgan is a licensed clinical social worker in Indiana.
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Well, here I go.
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There's something popped up on my screen.
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New York, Virginia, and Indiana, creator of The Liberated Porch.
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It's a podcast, right?
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Um, is a leading innovator for queer religious trauma-informed care.
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Kit consults with thought leaders and healers across the globe and has featured, been featured in Out magazine as a guest speaker at Colgate University.
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Kit's work began in 2014 advocating for formerly incarcerated individuals through interpersonal skills, development training, and research about alternatives to incarceration for non-white men.
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It came to Kit's awareness that many of the incarcerated individuals had backgrounds in authoritarian authoritarian Christian groups and felt deep shame about their identities and expressing vulnerability.
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These were stories that Kit related to.
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Kit began his career with one foot in and one foot out of the closet before fully emerging into identities as a queer and trans man who grew up in the independent fundamentalist Baptist and Southern Baptist churches, where being out of the closet was both unwelcome and dangerous and sinful.
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In finding liberation of his identities, Kit felt drawn to pivot his career path and began to focus his work with people who ever felt unsafe in their homes or places of worship because of their gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation.
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While Kit specializes in religious trauma informed therapy for queer people, his work expands to other adult trauma survivors.
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Welcome, Kit Morgan.
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Well, thank you so much for having me here.
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And I just I absolutely love your work.
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And I'm so glad that you have this podcast and are providing education about such an important topic.
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Thank you so much.
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Really appreciate that.
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Really appreciate that.
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So I want to get into uh your specialties, which if we're looking at your Instagram page, um online therapists for survivors of adverse childhood experiences and religious trauma.
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But uh before we get into that, uh you know, I'm very curious about, and I think from what I gather, listeners are about what it's like to be a trans person in today's world based on everything that's happening.
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But do you still feel a little bit like you're in some kind of closet?
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Or do you have to be like constantly aware of what you do and how you are in in public?
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Like, what is it like for you?
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I love this question.
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Uh for me, I don't feel like I'm in a closet where there there can be such a wide variety of experiences whenever being trans, just like how there can be a wide variety of experiences whenever being gay.
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And uh, and so there's this phrase that that's used amongst trans people called stealth.
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And stealth is whenever a trans person uh does not want to be perceived by others as being trans.
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And so it is almost like being out, but also being closeted at the same point.
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Uh, but for for myself, that that's not the path that that I've chosen.
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So even though that I may be out and about, and uh and people may not be able to tell that I'm trans at the same point too.
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If someone asks me about what my lived experiences are, then it's like, okay, I had a a girlhood because of how I was being treated, of growing up and being in a very religious environment.
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Like I wore a lot of dresses, a lot of skirts, because that was what was expected and demanded of me.
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So that really did end up shaping my manhood for for today and and how I look at the world and and move through the the world.
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Uh, but in in my trans experience in 2026 and in being an American, I mean, it it is pretty heartbreaking to be seeing um all of this dehumanization of trans folks um and and also experiencing it directly.
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But then this is the first time in my life where I felt fully connected to myself and feeling fully embodied.
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And uh, and I I think that you know, this is such a goal that a lot of people want to experience of feeling fully embodied, like feeling fully connected to themselves.
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And uh, and I just wish that, you know, pursuing that and also attaining that wasn't something that was being punished for people.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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Or maybe even a big deal, you know, like right.
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Like I I I think uh this whole idea of coming out is too big of a deal too.
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You know, like it should just be this natural, like, okay, this is what I like and this is what the life I'm going into, period.
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Right.
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Um, so uh yeah, it's very similar.
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Okay.
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Well, you know, I've just I'm I'm curious.
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I'm learning more.
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I mean, I'm I'm trying to educate myself, and I I found out just how ignorant I was last summer when I I dated very briefly, but I dated a trans man.
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Um I I knew, you know, I knew that it was from a dating profile hinge.
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Uh and and he said he was trans man on there, you know.
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And and I'm and I'm attracted to trans men.
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I'm not hitting on you.
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I'm just saying I'm attracted to trans mentioned.
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No, I uh I got that.
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You're you're just being open out here because I I mean I I think that it's important to differentiate because sometimes people are only attracted to cis men and and not attracted to trans men.
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So you're just clarifying.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Um, and so it didn't go well.
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Right.
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And I just I said and misgendered him constantly and said things that were so, you know, uh for lack of better words, ignorant.
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You know.
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But so I just I've I realized through that experience, like, you know, I want to understand more.
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I want to, I I I want to to not be ignorant anymore.
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And so I I took it, I took some classes, and now I'm in this sexology course where we're going deep into non-binary, trans, you know, queer fluid, uh gender fluid, just all the different asexual, pansexual, just all the different types of this and that.
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Um, and I'm really getting a clearer understanding of what is really happening, you know, what is in this decision.
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Um and so I I just if this if he's out there listening, which I doubt he is, you know, I I tried to apologize, but he's blocked me.
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Probably rightfully so.
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Uh but I you know I just wanted to I I would really like to see him someday and to say, look, I I understand what I was doing and how I was, you know, just stepping all over the place.
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Um he had some patience at first, but it didn't last long.
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But anyway, thank you for thank you for explaining.
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And I like this word stealth.
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Um I I love learning new words and and I'll be able to use that too.
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So yeah.
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And I I also just appreciate you sharing this here because I I think part of this um in the LGBTQ community, that it's important for us just to take responsibility and accountability whenever we're we're learning new new things, you know, and I I think like whenever recognizing of being attracted to the same sex, that a lot of times there's this fixation on genitalia.
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And um so then whenever being attracted to someone who is the same gender but not the same sex, then that can get really complicated whenever having all of these narratives for a really, really long time.
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And and there can be a lot of untangling that that comes with that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, I mean, uh, yeah.
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I don't want to get into the things that I I asked.
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It's embarrassing.
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Uh, but okay.
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Yeah, thank you for that.
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Very much, very much.
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Yeah, and so can you tell us?
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We're gonna switch gears here.
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If for those of us that haven't heard of it, what what is adverse childhood experiences?
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What is what is that exactly?
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So adverse childhood experiences came from this questionnaire where researchers were studying about clinical obesity.
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And then as they were studying about this, they started to realize that there are all of these different adverse childhood experiences that people can have, where this occurs anywhere between whenever a person is an infant all the way up until age 18.
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And the higher of the score that they have from this adverse childhood experiences questionnaire, where anyone can do this for free online and see the results on online.
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But the the higher the score, the greater the likelihood it is that a person ends up developing a substance use disorder or has uh a different chronic health condition.
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And so whenever considering about this, it can feel pretty dark and pretty dismal of seeing this whenever these things can be outside of a person's control between ages zero to 18.
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Whenever people find out that they may have a high adverse childhood experiences score, they might be like, well, then is my long-term health just fucked, essentially.
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And it doesn't have to be.
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Instead, this can be something where it's shared with your doctors, your care team, of letting them know that there needs to be more preventative health services so that then you can be able to live a long life and be able to catch things sooner if that's something that comes up.
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Because a lot of this is connected to the stress hormone with cortisol that can be really dysregulated, of being raised up in a time whenever you are vulnerable between those ages of zero to eighteen, where that environment was not a well-regulated environment.
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So if I am curious as to if I'm trying to recover and I'm curious as to what got me here.
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Like we can say it's genetics if we want.
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Like maybe maybe mom and dad was an alcoholic or something like that.
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But this score can you help could help me kind of uncover this is this is why I am, this is what got me here.
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Was I can look at these I can look at this score and kind of determine, like I was bound to be an addict, you know, because I I I took this, so it's known as ace, right?
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Um I took this back when Oprah did her big push for it and wrote the book, co-authored the book about it.
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I was 10, I was all of them.
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You know, and I was like, oh, well, no wonder, you know, I ended up and and actually I should be in prison.
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And I almost was anyway.
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Uh, right.
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I mean, it was it's it's interesting how the score was pretty accurate in terms of determining whether I, you know, what what was in store for me.
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Yeah, it's like whenever I I consider about this too, there there can be this aspect of self-compassion there of looking back at this because I I mean, whenever I'm working with people who have addiction in my therapy work, then a lot of times people ask, well, when did it go from using to addiction?
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And so it's like in looking at all these different adverse childhood experiences, I think that it also opens up this picture here of wow, there wasn't really someone who was able to be soothing.
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And so it's like in considering about even uh having these experiences whenever being an infant and not having an emotionally stable caregiver to be showing like these different facial expressions, for instance, that were happy and were warm and might be detached or may have just left, you know, that that person whenever they were an infant alone for a long period of time, then it's like there can be this depth of of crying that it can almost feel like where then it's like, wow, like this feels like this comes from something that is so deep where the memory may not even be in that that front awareness, um, because of the the roots of of where this can be found.
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Yeah, yeah.
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So if I find so this idea of being left alone, which to me sounds like abandonment.
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Right.
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So if I'm wondering why somebody ghosts me or breaks up with me or shows me signs of not interested anymore, I wonder why my response to that is so exaggerated in terms of why am I spiraling over this?
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It could be, it could be directed, it could be correlated to being left alone as a child.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Because it's like considering about whenever being uh an infant, like crying is the way that communication is done.
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Like that is a way of saying, like, I'm hungry, I need to be fed, or I'm tired, right, right now.
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Like it's going back to you know, halt at a really early age of um where where this is brought up in in recovery quite a bit.
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Like, am I hungry?
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Am I angry?
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Am I lonely?
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Am I tired?
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And whenever not having a caregiver be able to consistently be responding to that, then these responses can end up becoming very loud whenever being an adult because of not being heard whenever being so young.
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Okay.
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So if I'm in recovery and I keep relapsing, it could be that this abandonment feeling keeps coming, and my way to soothe it, of course, would be crystal meth or methadrone or you know, the drug.
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So my my soothing is the drug, basically.
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And so what what I don't think a lot of people connect here is they they're just thinking about how can I stop using this instead of how can I approach uh the problem, the the the hurt, the trauma that's causing me to want to use it.
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You know, like we're focused on the the the outside, the the the the symptoms that are the cause almost.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Would you agree with that?
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Oh, yeah, uh a hundred percent.
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Because this this questioning of like, okay, well, how how do I stop?
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How how do I quit?
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Then I I think that this is really linked to this archaic idea of early addictions treatment of considering addiction as being a moral failing, which it's not.
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Like, you know, it's very important to be acknowledging that.
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Um and it it breaks my my heart that that this is still uh a message that is put out there by addiction practitioners or in different peer recovery groups.
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Like this this is rhetoric that that needs to be done away with.
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So when whenever we can reframe things of looking at, no, actually like the the very real needs that people had whenever they were vulnerable babies, whenever they were vulnerable children were not being met, like that's where the failing started.
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Yeah.
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And like, and like, and and I also want to have compassion for you know the caregivers who weren't able to meet those needs either, because a lot of times it was this whole chain reaction of there being failures of the system that were then impacting people's families in a very deep way.
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That's right.
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That is exactly right.
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The moral failure idea of shaming you for using, you know, if for being in for being in this addiction, because I I've said it a billion times, you know, shame got you into the addiction.
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Shame is not what's going to get you out.
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So if you are in some recovery circle anywhere, it doesn't matter what, and you are feeling shame and you are being told that it's your fault and just quit and all this other shit that makes you feel really, really bad about yourself, get out of it.
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Get out of it.
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Yeah.
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Because that is you it's doing you no good, but compounding the issue.
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They might as well be sending you right outside to use drugs.
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Yep.
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Am I correct too?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You know, and I I think about this messaging of shame of I am bad, I am wrong.
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And and it's like, you know, in in stepping back and and looking at at this too, it's like this kind of phrasing, then it's this this tunnel where it can be this never-ending tunnel because of having this really deep belief rather than taking a step back and questioning about like, okay, where where did this messaging come from?
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And so when whenever we hear, you know, um different messaging about like there is no love like mother's love, for instance, or you know, or if like turning on, you know, a football game and uh and they're saying, you know, ah, I just want to say thank you, you know, to to my family, and and are like saying all these wonderful things about their families.
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And then people who came from families where then their caregivers, their parents weren't able to offer that to them, then like they may have this deep shame that is like, well, I must be bad because my parents did not give me that love or that attention and that care that I needed to have whenever I was younger.
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That's right.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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So my my dad used to brag about and laugh at um the fact that they would shove my crib out into the hallway of the apartment building that they lived in because I was wouldn't stop crying.
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Right.
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Now, this was a these were teenagers with a baby.
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Right.
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W what do you expect?
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Like you're saying.
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Right.
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That abandoned that child, that baby out there is feeling like there's something Like like you're saying, like I'm bad.
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My parents don't want me.
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I'm bad.
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I stand between me and the love of those who I need the love from most, the care from most.
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I stand in my own way, so I hate myself.
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I reject me.
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You know, and there's shame.
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That shame begins.
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And that self-loathing begins so early.
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We can't discount it.
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Pre-verbal.
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Right?
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And so figuring this out, I want to say to the listener, this does not mean you get to blame mom and dad and be mad at mom and dad or blame grandparents or bullies or anything like that.
00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.240
It's okay to say you were victimized.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.519
You were victimized, but don't play the victim now.
00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:50.240
Yep.
00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:51.279
Is that right?
00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:51.759
Yeah.
00:22:52.000 --> 00:22:53.200
You're the therapist here.
00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.400
You're the I I am loving this.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:23:02.319
You're just like on top of it, like this is wonderful.
00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:14.319
Yeah, cuz because I I mean, like, okay, resentment and and for forgiveness, these things can be really complicated.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:24.640
Um so for for instance, like holding on to resentment, this is something that can then cause a person to continue to be relapsing.
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:42.240
But however, that doesn't mean that a person actually needs to forgive the person who abused them, because we've been learning from research that forgiving an abuser may actually um create a higher likelihood of returning back to the abuser.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:55.200
So there can be a possibility of holding what can seem like two opposing truths at once, of releasing resentment, but also not pressuring yourself to be forgiving that that person.
00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:14.319
So what it could look like is you know, acknowledging how this happened and acknowledge that this isn't okay that that this happened, and and grieving that, and part of grief and going through these different stages of grief, and grief is nonlinear, but anger can be one of those parts.
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:22.799
But when whenever coming to this part of of grief of acceptance, there can also be meaning making that that comes from from that.
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:31.039
Um, and that's something that is really needed whenever having sustained recovery happen.
00:24:31.519 --> 00:24:31.839
Okay.
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.759
Can you talk, can you double click in on meaning making in this process of grief and acceptance?
00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:45.759
Well, I'll I'll bring your yourself up here for example.
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:47.599
Therapise me.
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.519
Well, I I I can't.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:52.799
Okay.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.200
You're you're not my client.
00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:56.240
Right, right.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:03.039
But uh, but you creating this podcast, this is you doing meaning making.
00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:08.000
The research that that you do, the education, this is meaning making.
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:21.279
Because it's like looking at in in peer support where where it's like, okay, so I've gotten to this this point now of having sustained recovery.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:23.440
How am I gonna give back now?
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:30.880
And giving back maybe to others, giving back may be to yourself, and it may be a combination of both.
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:34.240
I see.
00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:36.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:37.200
Yeah.
00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:59.920
I think that's so important to look at your past and decide that's going to inform my future, and I'm going to make a meaning out of it that's empowering and healing and edifying for other people.
00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:01.279
Or just myself.
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.440
Yeah.
00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:05.279
I think that's really important.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:17.279
Um and and that's the message I want to give to many of the listeners to make a meaning out of your meth experience, your chemsex experience.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.759
What meaning can you make out of it?
00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:22.799
You're talking about resentment.
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:28.079
So so many people resent themselves for what they did.
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:30.240
Just for using.
00:26:31.279 --> 00:26:36.000
And they go get into these spirals about what if I had never used, what would my life be like?
00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:38.559
You know.
00:26:39.440 --> 00:26:46.960
But what your life would be like would probably you would still be in the circle of trauma and not knowing, not knowing it.
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:47.599
Yeah.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:48.079
You know.
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.640
So the meaning you want to make out of your chemsex experience was it got your attention.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:27:05.920
It got you looking at these ace, these this ace score, and got you looking at I didn't get soothed, I was emotionally neglected, I was abandoned as a child.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:08.960
Like those need your attention.
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:20.160
And so the meaning making you could make of your your chemise experience was this was here to get my attention so that I could heal deep, deep wounds.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:22.799
Not just quit using a substance.
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:24.559
Yeah, definitely.
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:38.079
And when whenever I'm considering about folks who have a history of being dependent upon math, I think about this of being pleasure deprived, being intimacy deprived.
00:27:38.559 --> 00:28:05.359
And and how that can start at this very early level, because it's like in considering about attachment and and how I mean in my clinical work and and in meeting people who you know have histories of of meth uh uh sorry, I'm tripping over my my words here, over uh meth dependency, is that a lot of times like these folks were neglected whenever they they were very, very young.
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:12.720
And so it's like thinking about this of like how important it is to be held and to be spottled whenever being a baby.
00:28:12.799 --> 00:28:16.559
Like like this, this is the the earliest part of of intimacy.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:25.519
And um, and so there can be like this um this skin hunger that that starts, you know, even before turning one year old.
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:42.079
Um and and so it's like when whenever I'm I'm thinking about you know going after math, uh, a lot of times it's looking for intimacy, looking for pleasure, and trying to find that over all those years that that were lost whenever being very, very young.
00:28:44.640 --> 00:28:53.359
Could could there also be, and this I'm thinking about me now again, I definitely was pleasure deprived.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:54.559
Okay.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:04.400
Um and that grew into sexually I didn't want anything given to me.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:10.000
Like I don't want a blowjob like I don't don't do anything to me.
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:13.119
And it's almost as if I don't deserve pleasure.
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:16.079
But I'm gonna give it.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:17.119
I'm the one giving.
00:29:17.279 --> 00:29:18.640
I'm the one giving all the time.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:21.599
But don't do anything to me.
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:46.160
Um and I just wonder if that's if that's just what uh if that's what you're used to, if that's where your comfort is, is not receiving if that is what happens, you know, uh to some of us who were neglected, is that that's just where we're comfortable is not it's deprivation almost, right?
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:48.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:48.319 --> 00:29:57.359
And I I think that there is this this language that that is used so often in in our community of I'm a giver.
00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:04.480
And when whenever I I hear this, I I think that it's important to explore what does that that mean?
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.240
Like, does it feel uncomfortable?
00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.920
Does it feel unsafe to be asking for what you want?
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:19.359
Or does it also feel uh really confusing whenever not knowing what it is that that you you want?
00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:32.880
And so then uh maybe not wanting to show that confusion to a partner of not being aware of what could be those different pleasure points of receiving.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:39.680
Yeah, and I've told this story before, it was last year.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:31:05.920
This was last year, I don't know, but um, I have a friend who I call my intimacy friend, and we went to a retreat, and the first time like we we laid naked together with boundaries of there's no kissing, there's no touching of genitals, like this we're just going to lay here, and it uh tore me apart.
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:28.880
I mean, it was so uh it and when I say tore me apart, it uh broke down all of these walls, but it uh it hit me like this was the first time I felt like someone just wanted to touch me and give me pleasure with no expectation in return.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:35.920
There was no transactional part to it, and I think it was the very first time I experienced that.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:42.799
And it just I just broke down and just could not stop crying.
00:31:43.920 --> 00:31:56.400
Um, and then I went into all of these other things about how angry I was that it was I was almost 50, you know, but you know, because that's just where my mind went instead of being you know grateful for the moment.
00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:04.000
But I I just think you you're talking about the touch and the craving of that skin to skin.
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:14.400
And I remember trying to get my mom to touch me and hold me, oh my god, I'm gonna cry every episode this season for some reason.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:19.839
Um but just like starving for that.
00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:28.559
Um and you just don't realize how that leads into myth and addiction.
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:39.839
You just don't realize you you you you have to put all these pieces together and know that it's it was giving you what you needed at the time.
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:43.519
Absolutely.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:59.440
And then I think about this additional layer here, whenever being active in Matthews and whenever someone finds out about it, then there's so much stigma that then you know folks can be treated as I'll I'll call it the the untouchables.
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:10.000
And so so then it goes back to this um this you know very early history of not not being touched with with care.
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:33.039
And um, and and so like in our community, like there, there's a lot of um just very quick experiences with with people rather than just slowing things down and maybe just having clothes on, maybe just having those cuddle experiences, maybe not not having kissing.
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:57.519
And I I think about what could happen for our community if more of those experiences were shared with with safe people and the different healing that could happen as a result of that, because it is really cathartic and it's something really powerful to feel so safe with a person, to to have that and to cry and to be held in that.
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:08.320
So if I figure out like I I didn't get soothing as a child, okay, I was emotionally neglected.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:13.920
How do you go about as a therapist helping me heal from that?
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:41.440
Besides, I think you just answered part of that, but what would you say to somebody who maybe they maybe they take this test, which I'm I'm gonna read off the 10 in just a minute, but maybe they take this assessment and they figure out they're at high risk, or they it leads them down some memories of being like, wow, I needed I needed you, mom, dad, and you weren't there for me.
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.599
But so how do I heal that part of me now?
00:34:47.280 --> 00:35:11.920
So it really depends on who I'm working with, but something that I have found to be really helpful with folks with addiction histories that did not receive um proper or appropriate soothing whenever being very young is to ask them about the different high impact activities that they're engaging in.
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:20.159
And then uh and I I consider it to be a kind of detox process of those high impact activities.
00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:36.800
So uh a lot of times, like what I'll see from from these folks is um is they will be engaging in these different uh kink and BDSM dynamics where either they're not receiving pleasure or then they are delegating pain.
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:51.920
And so I ask them to be refraining from those activities for 60 days and to instead be engaging in pleasure giving and pleasure receiving with people that they feel safe with.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:57.519
And um, and this this can also contribute to exercise as as well.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:15.920
If uh if people are lifting so so hard where then they are hurting the the next day, then I ask them to be switching up to yoga instead or doing another kind of strength training that isn't going to be as hard on their body and to be doing this for 60 days.
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:25.119
Okay, and I kid you not, Dallas, at the end of those 60 days, I have seen so much changes from my clients.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:35.760
I notice hypervigilance decrease from folks, I notice the impulsivity decrease as as well, and the self-esteem increase.
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:54.480
And that does not mean you know, not engaging in those activities ever again, but it's having this space and time to be having gentleness be brought into life and to be focusing on that for 60 days and seeing what can this be like.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:02.639
And in this gentleness, then I don't want people to be self-isolating either, because that is not gentle, that is punishing.
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:15.679
And so engaging in gentle activities with with other people, I think is really essential whenever tending to these wounds that happen from the interesting.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:16.320
Okay.
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:36.000
So if I am not somebody who goes to the gym, if I'm not somebody who is engaging in in kink and and and those the high impact activities that you listed, um I still my goal though is to be in 60 days of gentleness.
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:41.119
So I need to figure out for me, what does that mean?
00:37:41.440 --> 00:37:42.239
Gentleness.
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:47.119
So it could be high impact mentally mental activities too, right?
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:48.880
Yeah, absolutely.
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.360
Of being highly productive in work.
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:57.360
Um may mean like not getting out into nature in a relaxed way.
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:04.559
Maybe this is also something where um shortening the the hours of sleeping.
00:38:04.639 --> 00:38:09.360
So maybe that means increasing the the hours of of sleeping as as well.
00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:14.480
It could even look like changing up things with with food as as well.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:30.079
Maybe that that means starting to incorporate crock pot meals, you know, um, where it's like things where it's slow of slowing down that that process uh where that contributes to to daily life.
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:30.880
Hmm.
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:32.000
Interesting.
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:32.639
Yeah.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:39.199
Yeah, I would think eating a McDonald's hamburger is not being gentle when you're in the system.
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:39.760
No.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:40.239
Right?
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:40.800
No.
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:52.800
Yeah, and being around maybe being around family that it requires a lot of mental fortitude is not a good idea during this time.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:53.199
No.
00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:53.599
Right?
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:54.800
Yeah.
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:55.440
Mm-hmm.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.159
Mm-hmm.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:56.800
Yeah.
00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:59.599
So 60 days of gentleness.
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.559
What am I noticing, or what am I do I what am I doing?
00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:25.119
So something that I like to be considering about with with journaling, because I I do work with some people where um they don't have high literacy levels because of having neglect happen.
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:26.239
Uh okay.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:36.079
Or, you know, or in and also like looking at journaling as being a gold standard, then my my thoughts are, well, what if I'm working with someone who has dyslexia?
00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:59.440
You know, and so I I like to step away from from journaling if if a person tries it, and if they've tried it for a month of doing it a few times a week, like whether that be three to four times a week for a month, and if they're like, you know what, this was not helpful, because sometimes it can actually increase people's ruminating thoughts rather than decrease it.
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:05.920
And so some people find tremendous benefits from journaling, and other times people don't.
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:22.480
Um, but uh so whenever people don't find as much benefits from journaling, then I find usually they tend to benefit more from having a guided meditation um or also doing an empty chair exercise.
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:32.239
So an empty chair exercise uh is whenever um you're sitting in a chair and you have an empty chair that is set up.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:50.880
You can have multiple empty chairs or just one, and you talk to this chair as though it is a representative of either a part of yourself, whether that be a younger part of yourself or a future part of yourself, or it can be a representative of someone from your life, whether that be present or past.
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:58.639
And you can be talking to them about how you have felt in experiencing neglect.
00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:15.119
And this can be a really cathartic process, and you can even switch chairs of then you sit in their chair, and then now you're symbolizing them and representing them, and then talking to your uh symbolic representation of of yourself in in the empty chair.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:21.920
So those are some different alternatives to journaling if if journaling isn't uh a good fit for for someone.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:22.719
Yeah.
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:24.159
Thank you for that.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:30.000
Because it, you know, I I do talk about journaling a lot, um, but it isn't for everyone.
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:30.800
Yeah.
00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:40.880
So after the 60 days of gentleness, I mean, uh I'm I'm guessing you're you know you're working with a professional, but where do you go from there?
00:41:42.559 --> 00:41:46.079
Well then I think about this from a recalibration process.
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:46.800
Uh.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:57.679
Where it's like whenever people talk about going on different retreats, and then they're like, wow, like this just changed my life.
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:09.920
And now I'm realizing that I need to be having different changes in my relationships or how I'm showing up for other people or who I'm showing up for, then I think about that and having 60 days of gentleness.
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:19.039
After that, a lot of times what I'm hearing is needing to recalibrate relationships or different ways and how people are showing up.
00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:20.000
Yeah.
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:20.480
Yeah.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:21.920
Recalibrate.
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:28.400
So at work saying no to some things instead of taking it all on, right?
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:28.960
Yeah.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:31.360
Or setting boundaries with mom.
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:32.239
Mm-hmm.
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:33.360
Yeah.
00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:35.360
It's a good time to reevaluate.
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:36.480
I like that.
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:38.320
I like that a lot.
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:39.920
I like that a lot.
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:44.880
Well, let's uh let me read the ten questions for the ace.
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:45.840
Is that okay?
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:47.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:47.760
Yeah.
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:54.639
So if you're listening, here's the 10 categories of okay, of um, ace, adverse childhood experiences.
00:42:54.880 --> 00:43:03.280
Did you feel that you didn't have enough to eat, had to wear dirty clothes, or had no one to protect or take care of you?
00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:10.400
Did you lose a parent through divorce, abandonment, death, or other reason?
00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:14.159
Could that be losing a parent, like mentally?
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:15.199
Yeah.
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:16.960
Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:18.320
Okay.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:24.320
Did you live with anyone who was depressed, mentally ill, or attempted suicide?
00:43:25.519 --> 00:43:31.599
Did you live with anyone who had a problem with drinking or using drugs, including prescription drugs?
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:38.719
Did your parents or adults in your home ever hit, punch, beat, or threaten to harm each other?
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:42.800
Did you live with anyone who went to jail or prison?
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:50.159
Did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down?
00:43:51.280 --> 00:43:57.199
So that could very well be also passive aggressive putting you down too, by the way.
00:43:57.440 --> 00:43:57.760
Right?
00:43:58.400 --> 00:43:58.719
Yeah.
00:43:59.119 --> 00:43:59.280
Yeah.
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:16.719
Um You know, there's people I know, there's a a a guy I knew I worked with one comment from his mom about he was she was trying to put his jeans on and she couldn't get his pants on him and she said something about how fat he was getting.
00:44:18.159 --> 00:44:32.639
That was it was like five and still suffers this body dysmorphia like when he's he's pulling his jeans on he'll start crying if they get you know a little bit tighter.
00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:33.679
Isn't that something?
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:46.960
It really is, because it's like whenever people are considering about these aces, then sometimes people will be like, Well, this didn't happen my entire childhood.
00:44:47.360 --> 00:45:03.039
And then say, Yeah, okay, well then let's talk about whenever this pivoted for you and how did this change the perspective of yourself and other people and the world around you as a result of this change of dynamic?
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:05.760
Yeah, wow.
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:12.880
Um did you ever feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special?
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:22.320
God, did you experience unwanted sexual contact such as fondling or oral, anal, vagina, intercourse penetration?
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:36.480
So unwanted sexual contact, by the way, is I I'm talking like I know everything here, but it it is at it is at the discretion of you right.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:41.039
I have well, I'm gonna say this on the podcast.
00:45:41.199 --> 00:46:01.119
So my daughter is was is being touched by a family member, but it was a hand on the lower back or massaging the shoulder that might not be considered unwanted sexual conduct by him, but it is by her.
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:19.199
Yeah, and I I think that this is something that is is a really important distinction too, because like like let's take for for instance this like in families depending upon like different cultures, like a kiss on the mouth may be something that is considered to be normal.
00:46:19.519 --> 00:46:27.679
But then there can also be these different breaks of cultural patterns, and then it can be like, you know what?
00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:33.440
That made me feel really icky, that made me feel immoral, like I did not like that.
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:43.599
And yet um there may be this pulling away that that happens from from that, and then that is that unwanted sexual touch.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:52.880
Like whenever I'm thinking about consent, I I like to consider it about the Fry's model of consent, that it's freely given.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.320
So there is no expectation about it.
00:46:56.639 --> 00:46:59.519
It can be reversible at any time.
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:05.519
So maybe that was something that a person liked was like of greeting their family member, of having a kiss.
00:47:05.679 --> 00:47:09.280
And then they got to an age where they're like, actually, no, no, no, I don't like that.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.280
And then it's informed, it's enthusiastic.
00:47:13.519 --> 00:47:17.599
So if there's a pulling away from from that, then that is not consensually done.
00:47:17.840 --> 00:47:20.079
And it's specific as well.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:37.280
Yeah, and then so let's go back to my daughter example when she reports this to her mother, it's swept under the rug as that's just how he is.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.719
So then that goes into another number here, right?
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:58.719
Is that did you feel that no one in your family loved you or thought you were special, or any of these other, you know, any of these others is that then she's felt she feels uh invalidated, right?
00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:03.760
And even that that compounds the problem in that moment.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:05.760
Yeah, absolutely.
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:13.360
And it's like, you know, I I know that like invalidation can be a feeling, but it can also be an experience.
00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:19.199
And so, like for her to have said, well, that's just the way he is.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:25.519
This is something that is told to a lot of people who have gone through unwanted contact.
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:28.800
And so, so it's an invalidating behavior.
00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:36.480
Um, and and it's like, and I I know that this is part of a generational pattern, but it's something where where we we can break this pattern.
00:48:36.559 --> 00:48:51.119
Like, like we we don't have to say, oh that's just how how they they are, you you know, where it's like, okay, like I I hear this, you know, and like and you know, thanking the the person for saying this made me feel uncomfortable.
00:48:51.280 --> 00:48:57.199
Um, because that that's very vulnerable in and of itself to say those words.
00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:04.079
Well, if he does it again, she's gonna there'll be another one where did your parents ever threaten to harm each other?
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:05.760
Because I'm gonna harm the man?
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:11.920
Um so I might have to add to the a score.
00:49:12.400 --> 00:49:29.760
Um so if I okay, so based on these 10, should I could even if one of them applies to me, isn't that important enough for me to to pay attention to and try to kind of unpack it?
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.880
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:40.719
Um in in being a trauma therapist, though, I have not worked with someone who only has just one.
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:55.360
Um anyone, you know, that that I have met with with addiction, uh whether that be in my my personal or or professional life, doesn't just have have one.
00:49:55.519 --> 00:50:08.880
Um, and and part of this, it's like, okay, considering my my sample size, you know, I know it's skewed because of what I do for a living and because of the kind of environment that that I grew up in.
00:50:09.039 --> 00:50:29.119
Um you know, but uh, but I I don't think that uh people with one ace uh score are are gonna be as likely to be open to having these different conversations because it hasn't been something that that has really touched their life before.
00:50:29.519 --> 00:50:30.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:30.800
Yeah.
00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:31.360
Okay.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:34.079
So I mean this can be found anywhere, by the way, guys.
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:45.840
Um, but we can put a link to your maybe your do you have a favorite site where people can go on and take this assessment kit or not?
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:46.719
No, yeah, okay.
00:50:46.880 --> 00:50:46.960
Yeah.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:52.159
All you do is all it did was yeah, Google Ace Assessment, right?
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:57.519
Um, but so you can find this anywhere and go on there and take it if you haven't already.
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:06.960
If you weren't weren't a part of the big push uh a few years ago, uh you know, Oprah, what anything Oprah gives attention to, the world embraces.
00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:11.519
Um so Oprah got on the train of the ACE scores um a while back.
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:19.840
But it the question was the question was not why are you like this, is what happened to you.
00:51:20.639 --> 00:51:20.960
Right.
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:24.960
That was her, I think the name of even her book was what happened to you.
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:34.800
Um so I think it's it's just so vitally important for you in the recovery for long-term recovery.
00:51:35.519 --> 00:52:09.360
Like you can get to this 90 days, six months, a year and you want to start looking at this pretty heavily because these a these adverse experiences have caused deeply ingrained patterns beliefs belief systems in you that will fight to repeat if all you do is leave the substance behind and not dig into this work.
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:11.599
Yeah, right?
00:52:12.239 --> 00:52:12.400
Yep.
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:13.440
Absolutely.
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:14.880
Yeah, yeah.
00:52:15.920 --> 00:52:23.440
And you need a uh a a specialist like Kit Morgan, L C S W to help you with this.
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:25.920
Um so yeah, thank you.
00:52:26.159 --> 00:52:27.119
Um okay.
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:29.920
So what did I miss here, uh, Kit?
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:39.199
What am I what's some important uh information that you think we could go over that uh I might have not touched on today?
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:41.119
Anything come to mind?
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:50.400
I think that this was uh so in depth here where you know where people can can learn a a lot from from this.
00:52:50.480 --> 00:53:04.960
And and I mean it, it's like whenever considering about adverse childhood experiences, it it is something where it's depth work that that happens with with it.
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:08.559
Uh it can also be called shadow work as as well.
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:09.039
Yeah.
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:21.440
Um where I I think about this from uh the the concept of of Peter Pan, where Peter Pan was chasing around his shadow to you know try to sew it onto his his shoe.
00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:22.400
So so that it could be a good thing.
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:23.360
Yeah, that's right.
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:24.480
Yeah, that's right.
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:49.840
And I I think about that, you know, um whenever having dependency on on math where it can um be this drive of wanting to be young forever and experiencing youth forever because of what was experienced before and and wanting to reenact youth in order to try to be healing from what had happened in in those wounds.
00:53:50.079 --> 00:54:11.760
But um, but I think in in part of holding space of gratitude of the aging process of being like, wow, you know, like there's another gray hair, like that that's a blessing in and of itself, you know, to to be getting to to this this point of the kind of shadow work of um of having addiction.
00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:12.880
Yeah.
00:54:13.679 --> 00:54:21.920
Yeah, and you know, for somebody who's constantly needing validation, you know, and that's what myth gave them.
00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:30.719
It could be possible that you just you just didn't get it as a child, and you've been searching for it ever since.
00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:32.480
Right.
00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:39.440
And it could just be a matter of when that urge comes up to be validated is that you just sit with it.
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:40.079
Yeah.
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:42.159
And maybe uh and maybe hold yourself.
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:43.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:44.320
Right.
00:54:44.639 --> 00:54:48.400
Like that part, that baby, it needs it needs held.
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:49.440
Yes.
00:54:50.159 --> 00:55:00.639
But we wanna it's like because when we were a baby, we didn't we we didn't know how to do it, so we tried to get to the next best thing as fast as we could.
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:02.639
I think we're in that same mindset now.
00:55:02.880 --> 00:55:08.079
Is I feel a little uncomfortable and I've got to do something about it right in a second.
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:11.519
Instead of just stopping being with it and being with yourself.
00:55:13.039 --> 00:55:14.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:55:14.639 --> 00:55:16.559
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:20.400
Thank you for your time today, kid.
00:55:20.960 --> 00:55:22.960
Thank you so much for having me here.
00:55:23.199 --> 00:55:26.000
I feel like I talked too much on this episode.
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:28.000
I don't think so.
00:55:28.159 --> 00:55:30.159
I uh one one bet.
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:33.519
I I felt like it was a really fluid conversation here.
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:42.239
Um and and like I I just think about like the the vulnerability here, and I I'm grateful for all the things that you shared.
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:43.039
Yeah.
00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:43.599
Good.
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:44.079
Thank you.
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:49.199
So can you tell us before we go about your podcast, The Liberated Porch?
00:55:49.280 --> 00:55:55.280
And I'm gonna, for those watching, I'm gonna put your um your Instagram up on the screen here.
00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:03.039
Yeah, so the the Liberated Porch is an educational platform that I started.
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:08.239
And um, and so I have a Substack where I write about it.
00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:16.000
I I also share some of this information too on Instagram and and TikTok, all under the name The Liberated Porch.
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:39.199
And uh and then I started this podcast, and it's exploring about sexuality, gender identity, gender expression, and how it relates to adverse religious experiences, because adverse religious experiences can also be uh very tied to people's adverse childhood experiences, um, depending upon what people went through.
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:53.039
And uh and so I I want to help people of um of learning more uh about this um so that then they can find freedom from from shame and and finding the the words to be articulating their experiences.
00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:56.559
Lovely.
00:56:56.960 --> 00:56:58.400
Love it, love it.
00:56:58.559 --> 00:56:59.199
Thank you.
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:02.239
Great, great work you're doing.
00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.360
It's so needed, so needed.
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:06.800
I really appreciate it.
00:57:06.880 --> 00:57:10.400
I'm gonna dig dig deeper into it um this weekend.
00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:11.840
I've put time aside.
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:13.840
I should have done it before the podcast.
00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:18.320
But I didn't, I didn't get to it.
00:57:18.559 --> 00:57:22.079
Um, but yeah, I appreciate you taking your time today.
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:24.639
And um I know it's gonna help somebody.
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:32.159
And um, so if you are listening and this helped you today, or if you dig into Ace and you find it helpful, tell us.
00:57:32.320 --> 00:57:33.519
Tell us in the comments.
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:37.039
Um, you can comment on YouTube or you can comment on Spotify.
00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:43.199
Hopefully, soon on Apple Podcast, you'll be able to comment too and watch the episode as you can on YouTube.
00:57:43.599 --> 00:57:46.480
Um, yeah, so thank you again, Kit.
00:57:46.719 --> 00:57:48.239
Appreciate it very much.
00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:51.920
Um, and I hope you all enjoyed, and we'll see you next week.