How Paw Patrol saved Spin Master - Ronnen Harary - Spin Master - EP#114

David Politis: I worked for three years trying to get a live action film made for Bakugan, which is one of our biggest toys. And when we finally got the offer from Universal, a hundred million dollar live action film, I said no, which was the wrong decision. It was one of the worst decisions I've made in my career. Today's guest is Ronan Harari, an entrepreneur who's over the last 30 years turned his company Spin Master into one of the largest children's entertainment companies in the world. They've built brands like Bakugan and Zero Hogs. And their successful franchise is Paul Patrol. has generated more than fifteen billion dollars in retail sales on its own. In 2021, Ronin stepped back from the CEO role and is now chairman of the board. He just published his first book, No Experience Necessary. I really like this quote. You said risk is not binary, it's multifaceted, like the weather, it's ever present. It's inherent in everything we do and it cannot be avoided. You have less to lose in your twenties, right? I really try to key in on the notion of the inverse risk. It's riskier not to bet on yourself, and passion delevers risk. Today's guest is Ronan Harari, an entrepreneur who's over the last 30 years turned his company, Spin Master, into one of the largest children's entertainment companies in the world. They've built brands like Bakugan and Airhogs, acquired notable and historic brands like Rubik's Rubik's Cube and Etchasketch, and their most successful franchise is Paw Patrol. It has generated more than $15 billion in retail sales on its own. And I'm pretty sure that my family's Toy purchases ⁓ account for a large chunk of that. Thank you. today, Spin Master is a public company of roughly three thousand people, doing over two point two billion in annual revenue. In twenty twenty one, Ronan stepped back from the CEO role and is now chairman of the board. He just published his first book, No Experience Required. Why betting on yourself in your twenties is the best decision you'll ever make. In his own words, he's motivated to help young people take agency in their lives and reach their full p potential. Ronan Harari, welcome to Not Another CEO podcast. Thanks, buddy. Pleasure to be here. Excited to be here. All right. First question I want to get to the book, but first question I ask everyone what is the one thing that you've done, big or small, at Spin Master Spin Master, that's had the biggest impact you do again if you're CEO of another company in the future? You know, I think it's my relationship with my two business partners. So I met my one business partner, Anton, when I was twelve at camp. We were best friends and we said we'd never go into business together. And ⁓ my other business partner, Ben, went to business school with Anton. ⁓ And Anton used to make him soup to get his notes. ⁓ and so the three of us went on this incredible journey together. And I think the most important thing is the fact that we're still together thirty-two years later. And w we didn't read any business books, but there was certain things that we did that kept our relationship together. and we had weekly meetings every week, every year. and in those meetings would be like a clearinghouse for issues and we'd bring up any issues that we were facing, ⁓ emotionally or in the business. ⁓ We always had low ego, ⁓ and we had the ability to say sorry. Mm. And whenever someone overstepped the line and you got the sorry and you were able to like move forward. ⁓ and then one other amazing thing in our partnership was there was no blame. and whenever we debated, we were always able to get into this incredible mind meld together. And whenever the best idea surfaced, we ran with the I with with that idea. And we didn't s you know, ⁓ attribute any ⁓ You know, ownership to the idea. It was just like that's the idea, let's just go forward with it. ⁓ do you think there's a lot of co-founder relationships and even people I've interviewed ⁓ this is the tri tri founder. Yeah, tri founder. I I that that don't go well. Yeah. And the founders are not together even four years later, let alone thirty-two years later. Do you think that it's because you knew each like you and Anton starting there that you knew each other f for such a long period of time? And all of that trust was there. Do you think and and then, you know, of course, ⁓ adding Ben to the mix, you know, ⁓ that that you were trusting Anton. I'm just curious because actually a lot of co founder, tri founder, quad founder relationships don't last the journey of the company, let alone th I mean three decades, almost never. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ no, it's quite remarkable when you even say three decades. ⁓ you know, it was Anton I actually started a business in university. We had a business called Campus Faces, and so we would take pictures of students during Frost Week and then we'd sell advertising around the perimeter. We'd print up 9,000 posters for free. and sorry, we give up 9,000 posters for free. And ⁓ we did that at Western and then we did it at four other universities by the time we graduated. Graduated with no debt, ⁓ ten thousand dollars in the bank. And I think that gave us the the opportunity to like test our relationship and see how we work together. And then once we graduated, we were able to like go fully in. ⁓ so I think it was a combination between trying something out step by step and also having the relationship at the beginning. And I think that's one of the greatest things is when you when you start young, you're able to see the real version of the person, right? There's no mass, there's no veneer, right? And you're you're seeing them in a very raw sense. You're seeing them in high school, you're seeing them in university, you're partying together, you know, you're socializing, you you meet their family, you spend time with their family. And I think a lot of a lot of traits come from the family at the end of the day. ⁓ and I was able to see that with Anton and and ⁓ and Ben was a different story. Anton knew him and I I I went on his recommendation. Right. But I like Ben so much. He's such a likable guy. I wanna this book I I read I read it and I I wish I read it when I was like eighteen or something, you know, not now. ⁓ but it's it's amazing that you that you've put the effort I I can only imagine how much effort it went into writing it. ⁓ So there the the chapters are kind of written where you tell a story about the business and and pretty in depth actually and and seems like in full transparency. ⁓ and then you kind of transition that into the lesson. And and ⁓ so one of the chapters is the power of not knowing. And I love that. I I feel like the whole book basically that's like the that's that to me, at least when I think about my twenties, it's like that's the foundation of of everything. And you talk a little bit about that and just like you know I I like the story also about ⁓ what was it called the air hog yes it's you know you don't realize it till you get older but all these amazing things accrue to you in your twenties and sometimes not knowing is helpful. And so for us our big product that came out which was the air hog so it's the airplane, you pumped it up, flicked the propeller, flew around forty five seconds. And ⁓ at the time there was There was only gas powered planes and rubber bound planes. And we started to tap into this network of inventors and they came to Toronto. They had a prototype. Me and Ben went to fly it. It was so much fun. All we wanted to do was fly it over and over and over again. And we thought to ourselves, like, this is an incredible product. You know, like if we're having fun at twenty-five, like how much more is the ten-year-old gonna have fun with this product? And we spent a year and a half developing it, put all our money into it, went up the learning curve, engineering. I went to China, found a factory, figured out how to manufacture it. And almost at the end, we found out that we were the last people to see the product. And that everybody had turned it down, and Hasbro had turned it down, Mattel had turned it down. And they turned it down actually for really good reasons because airplane, it's gonna fall to the ground, it could break, you're gonna have high returns. And if you have high returns, it's gonna take your profitability away. ⁓ there's safety issues, spinning prop. But for us, when we we thought about it, it's not like we didn't think about it, but it was like we'll figure out a way to get through this, right? And that not knowing and and not being burdened with like all that industry, you know, knowledge helped us actually bring this to market. And then we actually made flying toys for 15 years, generated hundreds of millions of dollars. ⁓ and that really solidified us as a toy company, but more than that with all the inventors, because in the toy industry there's all these people that invent toys for a living but they never commercialize them. And we were able to those all those inventors were like, okay. Now we'll show you more things. Because before they were just dusting off their old stuff. It's it's you know, so early in my career, I I took over this company, ⁓ voiceover IP business, phone system business, and I was 22 years old and and didn't know anything to the point of power of not knowing. And you know, we ended up deciding to build it in a technology a way that at that time in 2005 no one was doing, and I literally knew nothing, like actually nothing. And so we built this and years later, like a decade later, people like, you built that like over the public internet bat and it's the same thing I literally did I actually was so naive that I thought why not? But the but the I but the irony is that you did you did know. You knew you knew internally that that something was there. Yeah. And that's the thing. It's it's it's actually the it's it's actually the it's the inverse. It's the power of knowing but not letting the intellect okay. Not letting the intellect override what you feel internally. Right. And I can tell you a story of mys myself when I was forty, okay I worked for three years trying to get a live action film made for Bakugan, which was one of our t biggest toys. And when we finally got the offer from Universal, they called, they said, We're ready to make the film, we're ready to green light it, $100 million live action film. I said no. And I've said no based on conventional wisdom, which was the wrong decision. It was one of the worst decisions I've made in my career. Yeah, that's interesting. Even though you knew I mean I'm sure at 40, you knew that you not knowing in your twenties allowed you to build the business to some degree, but then you still couldn't get over that intellect that you're talking about later on. I think I was so in it from like 2030 to 40 that I didn't even have time to reflect back on my 20s of power nano. It wasn't until I hit like 45 and I had this idea to write this book that that knowledge crewed back to me. Yeah, but that's an interesting that point is such a good interesting point of even if you have that in your early years, as you get more under your belt and as you see more things you almost can't unsee correct or unlearn those industries it's it's correct. Yeah they they start to go inside you. And so it's like fighting the the intuition versus the conventional norms is it becomes more difficult. Right. And and basically when you talk about that, it's so the whole book, the premise is really that you are you there is a unique window of time in your life where you can go in your twenties. Correct. I I I would say I think you can bet on yourself at any point in time. I just try to make it the case that starting earlier is very advantageous to you. Mm-hmm. Well, this is an example. Right. This is a very good example where you almost if you went and you had a job and you worked in this industry and you worked in this and you you learn from I mean, I have nothing wrong. I didn't go to business school, I don't have a problem with people go to business school, but I feel like it's one of the things that actually removes it it starts adding these layers when you come out of business school and they're like, Well, in business school Right. What they told us is this is how it's done. And you can't unlearn I mean you you basically cannot unhear what you learned in class that they made you take tests on. And I tell people, I'm not sure it's actually e especially in today's world where I feel like it's changing so quickly. What you learned a year ago is literally probably different today. You know? ⁓ so I think that twenties thing is a is an interest it is that point you can't there you can bet yours on yourself, but there are these unique Correct. There's certain things that are there in that decade. Yeah. That you will not have in other decades. Yeah. The other one that I obviously, which is in the same realm, is risk, because there's a different level of risk. I I wrote down because I really, I really like this quote. You said risk is not binary, it's multifaceted, like the weather, it's ever present. It's inherent in everything we do and it cannot be avoided. And it was and and there's there's a bunch more to that, but it was like the risk is gonna be there. But maybe could you talk a little bit about that? as well, like in in your twenties, what's the difference there? You have less to lose in your twenties, right? Which is the the more obvious one. But I I I really try to key in on on the notion of the inverse risk, that it's it's riskier not to bet on yourself. Okay. And passion delevers risk. So it's better to lean into what you're passionate about, what you what drives your curiosity. And I think that those are the things that are going to give you the fortitude and the effort ⁓ and the energy to push forward with. And so if you go with the more conservative route that doesn't necessarily align with with with you, then that could actually be a riskier place to be. Right. So it's more about so it's more about following what is true to you, less about what's true to your parents, your grandparents, society. And that's that's the way to delever the risk. And I think it's it's it's it's really unique to everybody else. And I think that's the one thing I I try to make the point of is that, you know, success is is is ⁓ personal. You know, what you define as success is is is personal to you. And what you find risky, we're very different, right? And so you're you're gonna grow up in a kids are growing up in a totally different generation. The way they see the world is so wonderful, but it's very different to the way the the parents see the world. And so potentially it's not as risky to do something to be in the creator economy or to be an influencer, ⁓ et cetera, et cetera, right? But for their parents is very foreign. Right, right. Sounds crazy actually. It's very it's very foreign for them. ⁓ and then and ⁓ and then the other thing is I think that we as as people, if you write the pros and cons, you can always game out the downside. Things are not gonna go well, God forbid you go bankrupt, you know, you lose money, like those things are so obvious. But once you start and you decide to start a business for yourself or be independent, you don't know what you're gonna unlock. You don't know what's gonna happen the next day and the next day and the next day and the next day. Right? We can't write it. It's like writing a screenplay that's it's very hard to to write. But once you do it, you you're gonna unlock the screenplay of your life. And so it's riskier not to unlock the screenplay of your life than to look to the downside. Because that one's so obvious. So it's it's it's very much a again goes back to believing in yourself and having the faith that I do think that even it's even though it's obvious as you say it and you write it about the relative risk, I think that that is the part though that I have conversations all the time with people who are in companies, tech companies, whatever, not founders, and they're like, ⁓ Dave, I just I want to do this for another couple of years, then I'll get this, then I'll learn, then I'll have this thing under my belt. Then at that point, I'm gonna go start a my own company. And what I tell people is by the time you get to that point. You're not gonna you're gonna be making so much money, you're gonna have kids, you're gonna have a wife, you're gonna you're not gonna wanna take the risk. The the risk at that point is you write about this in the book. Like it's so much higher. It is so much higher than the bar to jump over Correct. The day the the the con side, that list actually gets deeper. Right. 'Cause you're gonna have more things that potentially, you know, if it goes bad, this is what I'm gonna give up at that at that stage. Right. Yeah. And I think it's what holds a lot of people I have a lot of friends who are brilliant, amazing, whatever, but they're f in their mid forties. Right. And they want so badly to go do something, but they don't you know, you you have the especially New York City, you're paying for school and this and that. And like you're just you basically cannot take that risk, even if it's a short term risk, that short term risk is i the to your point, the con side is so I think that part is the is the thing that The power of not knowing is just innate, I think, in in kind of that's naivety of being s young and everything. But the risk part is that it's the barrier that holds people back. That if you do it at at your in your twenties, ch what do what am I gonna lose? The tiny salary I was gonna about to make or you know, like yeah I can spend all my time, all my days just working. I don't need to worry about being home with the kids or feeling bad about this, right? I mean, you wrote about all I I thought that was that's a thing that like young people have to read because that's it's hard to understand that when you're twenty you you don't know what that's gonna be like. Yeah you just made me think about it. Like you have the freedom to try. You really have the freedom to try at that point in your life. Right. ⁓ and then you know if you try it and and if you like it, you continue. If you're not you can take the other path. Right. How did your parents like when you were doing this, how did they respond to this? You know, like I'm a classic like latchkey kid. Yeah. Like I I c I call myself a free range chicken. You know I was just a free range. My parents, you know, ⁓ I great parents, but very much like, you know, more about the house and the food and like that type of stuff. Not more not really about the emotional stuff and ⁓ My parents my parents ⁓ you know, my parents actually split when I was twenty and it was it wasn't a good divorce. ⁓ and then after university I moved back in with my mom and I was estranged from my father at the time. And so I didn't have any encouragement either way from my dad because I just wasn't speaking to him. And my mother was like super encouraging. So when we decided to do the Earth Buddy, which was our first product, you know, little potato head, you put ⁓ in water, grows grass for hair. ⁓ she was like, build all the prototypes in the house. So we took over the house for like a month. ⁓ here's my contacts, here's my relationships, ⁓ take my car. She was like super supportive. And she never had any words of ⁓ don't do this. It was all encouragement. The only thing we debated on was whether or not to buy the Earth Buddies from distributors in in manufacturers in Israel or to manufacture the product itself. So I had this intellectual conversation with her and I and I said, you know what, we need to have control so we're gonna manufacture ourselves. but it was full encouragement. And then that was one of the reasons why ⁓ you know I wanted to write this book. I wanted this book to be like a supportive parent because I had that from my mother where there was just there was no negativity in what I was was doing. One one of the things you talked about in the book ⁓ Another thing that I really liked, you you know, you said ⁓ around work ethic essentially. You said I I have deep faith that things will work out one way or another if you apply it enough effort. Right. ⁓ do you think that that that is what helped you at the young age, not knowing what you didn't know, all of that, get through, you know, some of the, of course, challenging times and some of the do you think that that Because that that's something d you said it before by your co founders. Like that's that comes from what I read from your family history, from your background. Like, do do you think that that is what i got you through like is that an important element, let's say, of all of this? I think for sure. I call myself a grinder. So I got identified at ten years old with a learning disability called dysgraphia, which makes it very hard for me to get my thoughts out through my hands and my handwriting is just atrocious. You think that I I'm like a doctor, but but I'm not. ⁓ and I have some other like spatial learning dip disabilities and stuff like that. but I was very lucky to get identified, so I got extra time on my exams. and that got me through school. But it took me, you know, two hours to do an exam that s regular students would take an hour, right? Like the essays were so hard for me to write. Everything like school was very, very difficult because it didn't it wasn't matched up with the way I and took information and the way I put the information back out was very difficult for me. But I grinded it out and I just thank God I made it through school and I made it thr into university. I made it I had a 69. It was crazy. I had a 69 and my mother was like I was on the waiting list at Western. She's like, get in the car and drive to Western. She didn't drive me. It was two hours away. She's like, get in the car, drive to Western and go sit in the office and wait till they accept you. And that's what I did. I went to the admissions and I just sat there and I I made my case and I got in. And so I'm so fortunate, I'm a huge advocate of of post secondary education and learning and and such a gift. But I w I had to grind my way through school. And I think that that repetition of having to sit on my bum, right, for long periods of time and, you know, write essays and have to rewrite 'cause my handwriting's so bad I have to like go back and rewrite words and then I lose my train of thought. ⁓ so everything's like it just takes so long for the information to come out of my body. ⁓ but that was the only way that I can actually That's the way they they tested us back in the day. Right. and so that repetition taught me to stay in the game. and when I got into business, it was so wonderful because now I could do things my way, right? Which is so wonderful. And I think that's one of the greatest things about having your own business. You know, I write about it in the book, it's like business is I think business is like an art, right? It's an art form. It's it's you w working with other human beings, inspiring other human beings to be their best, coming together. ⁓ collectively coming up with new ideas and implementing and executing. It's kind of like writing it's kind of like being in a symphony and you're the you're the conductor. So I was able to shine at that point in time because I could do things my way. But the process of staying in school for like 12 years taught me that anything's possible. Yeah. I think that that that mindset, yeah, I grew up with my father always telling me, you know, immigrant came here with nothing from Greece, all that. And he always said You can do literally anything that you put your mind to as long as you stay focused on it, you know. And I think that there is an element of that where back to kind of this generation now coming into their twenties, ⁓ th I I think that that is not as ⁓ i there's been a pushback a little bit on hard work and grinding and all those things. And I feel like Regardless of AI, no AI, it doesn't really matter. If you're gonna start something from literally zero, like zero, and you have to go from zero to something, that is such a core part of that. That's why I loved when you wrote that because I think that's another important element where you can't just have one of these things. You kinda have to have multiple of these pieces come together to actually get it off the ground. Off the ground, yeah. Yeah. It's a big lift. It's a big lift. How long do you do you still grind like that? I don't grind as much. I don't grind as much, but ⁓ But how long do you think? Like if if you think about your career, was that that mentality, that drive, like it's it was there. Like like the way I work is very unique. Like I have my weekly meetings, I never miss a meeting, right? I always have my meekly weeks. I have some people on my team that are like, ⁓ Renan, there's nothing much to discuss this week. Can we cancel? And I never can I never cancel. And and and in the meetings that they want to cancel are the best meetings. The best ideas come, right? ⁓ so it's it's it's to what you're talking about before it's the discipline, it's the focus. Right. So I still have that the grinding taught me the discipline taught me how to be disciplined and how to be focused, right? And to stay on the path. ⁓ so you're you're totally right. It's it's all about the focus and the discipline and the repetition. And the repetition. Yeah. A lot of it's in the repetition. Like there there is there's so much to it, but I think a lot of it is in in the repetition, constantly showing up all the time. I think the magic happens when you show up. I believe the magic happens outside of the office, right? Always being out there, always being in motion. and you know, when people say to me, Rand, let's cancel the the meeting, to me that's like let's let's put things in reverse. I'm like, why should we put things in reverse? We got so many things to do, right? I'm curious, I guess it's very tactical, but on those weekly meetings, what is the format of that meeting? Because that seems like that is your that's like this pillar of your operating rhythm. I like a little chit chatting for the first five or ten minutes of the meeting. And then I like to just go around the room and just hear the different ideas ⁓ that people have. You know, it depends on what it depends which group I'm actually working with. Right. ⁓ but what I'm what I love to do is Whenever we are going deep in the conversation, if there's other people that can add to it, we'll call them into the meeting. So I'm outside that team or correct. So I'm I'm famous for s from starting what with two or three people and ending a meeting with like eight or ten. Really? Yeah, and I'll just call them. In the in the early days I used to go on the on the pager and I would page them and come up to my office. I'd ask them to come to my office. In the middle of the meet like the meetings going on just like, Hey, can you come join? Can you come? Now I just ask my assistant and people come join. And basically what happens is the energy starts to get high, okay, because there's diversity of thought. 'Cause like like I don't want to wait to book another meeting, right, to get that person's opinion on what's we're what's what we're talking about. So the person comes in, bring them up to speed two seconds, what you think about this? Then they sit in, they join, and another person, another person, and then we start to generate the ideas. I love that and and and I and I will also do another thing. I I will not end a a meeting on time, okay? Because usually by the end, you're at the peak, right? And if you're peaking, the best stuff is coming. And so I'd rather go another five or ten minutes. To get the juice. So we're we're we're spin masters, we're notoriously late. But you got the best part, right? And so it's it's it's very idiosyncratic. Does it take time for the team to get used to this format? It's idiosyncratic. And I'm also don't because I'm not because I have my learning disability, I don't take notes. Okay. So I rely on my team around me. ⁓ Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, it's very strange. I like the idea. And I've never done a PowerPoint in my life. Never. Ever? Never. I don't believe I don't believe in the PowerPoints are good for like No, because I think people want to they want to hear what you have to say. It's that's less about what you're putting up on the screen and then they want to hear it. You have to you have to make the case yourself. Well I I don't think I've ever been in meetings where people just get called in randomly. I I not in my career, but I but I I kinda love it because I think about all the meetings and always to your point you're like, ⁓ well we gotta go ask, you know, Jim about that. We gotta go ask Sarah about that. Yeah. You may have you may have five things to go to follow up that you could have that you're doing just doing right there in the meeting. And everybody and also everybody's here in the conversation. I love this. And you get the diversity of thought. And the richness is through the diversity of thought in the conversation. I l I love it. I think it's ⁓ like I I'm gonna I'm gonna try that. Try that. I'm gonna try that. In terms of you know, the other the other ⁓ chapter, which ⁓ this is a big thing. I I recently wrote a lot about this. I I have a lot of opinions on this, but ⁓ talking about luck. ⁓ and you talked about the flick tricks. ⁓ this this I'll let you explain what it was, but you know, you you say the term luck versus dumb luck or chance. And I thought that was really good to differentiate that, you know, and you talk about kind of making your making your own luck versus Like pure chance. Right. Can you talk about maybe tell the story a little bit about the and I can tell the story. So we were when we were making the Sky Shark, we were working with this company in Chicago and I would go every like three weeks, I'd go to Chicago and see how the development was going. And it was so complex. ⁓ and th those guys were amazing, the ray campers, and they were super busy, but I would like I would just go to make sure that that I would A, I can see what they've done, and two that I know that they're doing something. If I'm coming, they got it They they gotta have some stuff to show. and so I would go back and forth over the last you know, I probably went like twenty times over the course of a year, year and a half to Chicago from Toronto. And on one of my trips, ⁓ Jeff called me in and he's like, Renan, I got this product to show you. And it was this little we called Flick Tricks. It was a BMX bike, a real replica of a real BMX bike with working brakes in the back and and brakes in the front and wheels and chains and you put your finger through the front and you can do everything you can do with a BMX bike, but with your fingers. Yeah. And I was like, wow, this is really cool. And I'm like, Jeff, I think we should do this. And he's like, he's like, sure, this is great. I'm like, how much for the option? He said, $5,000. I'm like, okay, amazing. I'm like, can I take it back home with me? Because it was so small. He said, sure, no problem. And Flick Tricks went on to break us into the die-cast category because we were all die cast bikes and we licensed Mongoose and Redline and Hoffman bikes, all the famous BMX companies back in the day. Sold to Walmart, we got into die cast category, and I took our business. I think we were doing fifty million dollars in sales at the time. And the next year we did over over a hundred million dollars. So we did over fifty million dollars just in the Flick Trix in the first year alone, and got us into this brand new category, built up our business with Walmart. ⁓ and I think the lucky part was the fact that I was in Jeff's office at that moment in time and Jeff being an inventor, inventors are kind of like kids. Whenever they come up with an idea, they just want to show people. It's kind of like when you're getting engaged, you know, you get the diamond ring and you say, I'm gonna I'm gonna propose my wife in three months, but you do it in like three days later because it's like burning a hole in your pocket. So when they have the toy, it's kind of like burning a hole. They want to just show it to people. So I got lu I got lucky that I was in his office at that moment in time. If I came a week later, maybe he would have showed it to Hasbro or Mattel or another toy company and they would have taken it. But what I write about is I made the luck because I kept on coming. To Jeff's place to work on this project. I was in we were in momentum. We were we were busy, we were working on this other project, and the fact that we committed to Sky Shark and we were bringing that to market led us to this opportunity of getting to see the Flick Tricks. And I would say like this, and I never really thought about it, but even if Sky Shark didn't do well, that failure would have led to the success of the Flick Tricks because we were in the office. Right. Right. So sometimes failure not sometimes, but a lot of times the failures will lead to your future success also. So we got lucky by, you know, by being in motion by doing, and the universe met us halfway and gave us the luck of seeing the flick tricks at that moment in time. And and n no other company stu ⁓ signed it. And then the other thing is like we were Uber lucky because we had the opportunity and we took it. Because sometimes you get a lot of opportunities in life, but you're not Uber lucky enough to take it and spot it. And I think that's the thing about life that that I've realized and There's been so many things I just haven't taken those opportunities, especially in my personal life. ⁓ where it's like you get these we're constantly getting I think we're all getting lucky, but you need to be Uber luck to like take it when it when it appears. Because I may not have taken the bike. I could have said, Nah, that's not that cool. We're not gonna do it. What percentage of your success would you attribute to luck? I'd say fifty percent. I think it's over fi I every everyone I talked to, one person told me eighty percent. I've never I've never put I love Yeah. I it just it's everyone puts it at a very high whatever the number fifty I would s easily over easy over fifty percent. I wouldn't I probably wouldn't say eighty, but I'd probably say but when I read you this thing of ch luck versus chance, I I really like that 'cause I think if I just if I define it that way, maybe eighty percent. Right. Chance, you know, But but luck that I made for myself de definitely it's like the sliding doors, you know, just did you make that decision? Did you take that meeting? Did I get on the airplane to fly there? Where then on the next to me on the airplane I met the person who like it's just but I but I but I would make I'd make the case that the more times you get on that airplane, the more time you you you get on that airplane to go, you increase your chances of the luck. Right, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. And being in person and building the relationship. When you talk about that part, that real that resonated with me because I feel like a lot of my luck came from just such relationships. You're such a people person. You're an incredible people person. So nice. But that's that's nicest guy ever. But that's a big part of it, is just is just building relationships. And you don't even know where someone calls you is like, Hey Dave, I thought this would be interesting to you. Like I would literally never have even heard of that, found out about that deal, had any opportunity unless I met that person. That person liked me. I I invested the time. So ⁓ I I think that that that actually that chapter should be read by anyone of any stage at any company that because I think a lot of times we feel like ⁓ you know, we're like, ⁓ that person, they were just they were smart and they did all the right things, one after the other after the other. In reality, they did a lot of the right things, but then they got lucky or in your case what you said uber lucky, you know, which is a big part of it. Yeah. okay, the other the other chapter that I really liked was ⁓ the control chapter. ⁓ because I thought that that was the way that you're being honest, where it's like, look, you're fo you're you're a founder, you're an entrepreneur, you have your own company, you have control of the company, you, your co-founders, but it didn't mean that you don't have a lot of employees. It doesn't mean that you're not I I don't want to use the word, but I sometimes feel it like slave to your to your customers, employees, products, you know, all of that stuff. But you still are in control. You're doing it and you you've made the decision to do it versus someone's telling you to do it. Right. That I can you elaborate on on that? Yeah, I I I think it's control is maybe the control is not wasn't the right adjective, but it's more about doing things your way, right? Having control gives you the ability to do things your way. It gives you the ability to work with the people you want to work with. Build the culture that you want to ⁓ have. Page people, you know, even though even even though my partner c you know, he cut it after the first couple of years. But you know, hold the meet the type of meetings that you want to hold. Right. Do things the way things match your gifts at the end of the day. I think that's really the the the connection is matching the way you do things that bring out the best in you and that potentially could bring out the best in other people. And if you're if you don't have your own company, then you are, you know, you're you're in another culture. And there's lots of cultures that work for you, which is wonderful too. But this is you get the ability to shape yours. ⁓ you get the also like, you know, when you come into work, right? Right. No. Right. Like today, like do you want to work remote, not remote? Some companies are fully remote these days, that works for them. you know, the people that you want to do business with, the reputation you want to build. I think that's a huge thing. Like how you wanna be, what you want to put out into the world. ⁓ that's within your control. ⁓ so I think it's it's it's ⁓ I I write about I I call it a a tethered freedom, right? So it's a freedom to do things your way, but with the same at the same token you have the responsibilities to all the people that you're bringing along with you. As the company was growing, did you have a mentor or kind of ⁓ advisors or coaches or or anything like that? Or was it literally you you and your co founders Figuring it out. It was more the latter. Wow. Yeah. I w I would even at the scale that you were I mean, this massive scale. But we were we were I would say this. I didn't have like a mentor relationship where someone like I call every couple of weeks and let's sit down and have a chat. But we were like sponges. We were constantly asking people for advice and for information. And that's one of the greatest things when you start young. You know, no one sees you as as competition. You know, when you're twenty five, everybody's rooting for you, everybody wants to help you, everybody wants you to win. And so we were call people up. We We had early conversations with Alan Hasbell, the founder of Hasbro. He picked up the phone. He was so excited for us to be in the toy industry. And so we were asking him questions. We were soaking up information all over the place. So we I would say we had micro mentors. That that was our moment. We didn't even know they were mentoring. Yeah, they probably Yeah, they they they didn't probably know that they were mentoring us at the time. But we were whenever we had issues, we would reach out to multiple different people to get the advice we needed. ⁓ huh. But I wish I I wish looking back that I did have like a you know, like more of a like a long term mentor. I was in YPO like five or six years. I had a forum group and stuff like that. So that that helped. ⁓ and then I read a lot of books. ⁓ d actually where did the book the idea for the book like where did that come w did you owe you said in forty five or something you started thinking about it. Like was was it ⁓ 'cause it's kind of biography, but also mixed with this this gift to you know twenty year olds or people even younger than that. ⁓ like where did this come from? It's it's it just came. I I can't I can't attribute to any it's it's just it was just an idea that came to me about s the gifts of your twenties. And I had it like ten years ago. ⁓ and it was only when I stepped down from being co-CEO of the company that I had enough space. I took sabbatical for a year and a half and I gave myself some space to ⁓ to write it and then I I read a book called ⁓ Bird by Bird by a woman by the name of Anne Lamont. And she sparked me to actually do it. And she basically says, you'll never you'll never get inspiration to write a book ever. And so you need to sit. She said it doesn't work like that. And it's the same with with life. Like you're never gonna get the inspiration. Like, like you'll get the inspiration, but if you don't if you're not disciplined about it, it's not gonna come out. So she's like, you need to write every day. Sit down, write unfiltered, ⁓ and just write. And so that's what I did for months and months and months. And she's like, if you're gonna write. a book be vulnerable and authentic because if not no one's no one's gonna read it. ⁓ so I just followed her advice and I would write from twelve to two every day for like months. and and then afterwards I got all my thoughts out and then I organized it. But ⁓ it was it was how long did it take like from the day you sat down to write the first page to actually publishing how long? Four years. It was a long journey. It's it's too long for the podcast. It's for another podcast. But I could I could do it now probably in if I ever write a book and ⁓ again I could probably do it in two years. Yeah. It was it was a whole learning it was a steep learning curve for me on how to do it. but it was just an idea that really it's like something that just w wanted to come out and I really tried to write the book f that was approachable for people that were younger and not talk about like all the fancy things like IPOs and all that type of stuff. Right. ⁓ well speaking of IPO, you you are a public company. ⁓ Was that a goal for you? I mean, I I doubt when you were twenty, that was a goal, but like d when did that become something you knew you were gonna do or wanted to do? You we we tried to go public in our s 16th year business in 2008. Yeah, that that did not happen. I d I will never forget the time we were sitting, it was September 2008, and we had the investment bankers from Morgan Stanley in in our boardroom, and their stock price went from 13 bucks to six in the meeting with us. And they were such professionals. They were they were super professional. They didn't even like bat an eye. It went from nine o'clock in the morning to twelve. By by twelve o'clock that day, their stock price w went down by fifty percent. So anyway, so the markets closed and and then we went on a terrible downturn. We went from a billion dollars in sales to half a billion dollars in sales. So thank God we were not public at the time. ⁓ and then in our twentieth year, we we said we'll try it again. And it was really at that point in time, we were like You we're all about partnerships in our business and being public is the ultimate form of partners partnership, basically for people on the outside and also for people in the company. Everybody now has a vested stake in the business. ⁓ when you're public you have complete transparency. So all the companies on the outside that we were trying to get licenses from. You know, in the past we couldn't get the licenses 'cause they like you're a private company, you're opaque, we can't see your balance sheet. So now they can see the balance sheet, they felt more comfortable. We started getting incredible licenses, like we have the Monster Jam license, which is one of our biggest ⁓ licenses in our portfolio. ⁓ we have Gabby's dollhouse, we have multiple other ones. And ⁓ and then it's also it's a way for us to diversify, but still own a good chunk of the business, ⁓ take some money off the table. ⁓ and then also like, you know, there's three partners. So if one partner wanted to do something else, they have an ability to sell down their stake. It gave us flexibility without having the binary decision of like, are we gonna sell the whole thing or not sell the whole thing. And so We actually did it for future planning in the in the later years. And now you've been public for over a decade, right? A decade, yeah. Yeah. ⁓ can we just I just wanna talk about the Paw Patrol story only 'cause my kids literally I mean they're ten and twelve now, they don't w they don't watch it anymore, but they ⁓ I mean, I'm not even sure how many hours and how many toys I meant did serious like we've probably spent thousands of dollars ⁓ on Paw Patrol things. ⁓ where what is the origin of that? The origin of Paw Patrol is that It was born when our company went back to four hundred and fifty million dollars in sales. So it was born actually in the in a dark moment in Spin Master's history. and we had back up a little bit. When we did Bakugan, which was these ⁓ marbles that you roll into cars and cards and they pop them in the transform, they're kind of like Transformers meets Beyblade. ⁓ that took our company up to billion dollars in sales and that taught us the whole. entertainment industry, how to produce shows that was on Cartoon Network for four years, played all around the world. And after that we tried to replicate the success of Bakugan and we couldn't. Okay. So we we brought a new show out called Redekai, which is all about ⁓ trading cards for kids that was in the show. It completely bombed. I literally, okay, I remember going to retail and seeing the product on the shelf and it was beautiful displays. And then I go back the next week Same beautiful display. Go back the next week, same beautiful display. I'm like, what's going on? Like, did someone put glue on on on the product? Like you can't like you can't take it off the shelf. Like, literally no one bought this product. And then we did another TV show with a company in Japan called Tent Guy Nights. Same thing. Couldn't give the product away. Show was didn't do great. Then we did a show called Little Charmers. Did not do well. And then we were like, you know, there's there's a white space in preschool and The play pattern for Buckagun was all about transformation. Yeah. It's such a fun, you know, play pattern. You know, you get this surprise and then you put it back in the original shape again. ⁓ and we said, no one's ever done that for preschoolers. So we said, let's see if someone can come up with a great concept around transformation. And so we sent out this brief to five different creators around the world. And this gentleman by the name of Keith Chapman, who's the creator of Bob the Builder, sent us back in this brief for Robbie and the Rescue Pups. So that was originally for Bob Patrol. ⁓ and it was Robbie and his five pups ⁓ that went on these great adventures, but had nothing to do with transformation. So we basically took what is is is in Japan as a very classic art form, which is mixing the creativity of storytelling with toy design together when you're producing a television show. And so we had two different art forms working together, and so our toy team put in the the whole idea of the transformation we put in the backpacks and the and the doghouse the churn transformed into vehicles, ⁓ you know, in the tower that was super fun. And ⁓ you know, it's just it was one of those things where you can't attribute the success of Pop Patrol to one or two or three or four or five or six or seven or eight or nine or ten people. It was literally like fifteen, twenty, thirty people that came together that put so much love into that show that created the magic. And I think that's why your kids resonate with it because it you know, no one no one was dialing it in. Everybody was like so into it. The director, ⁓ Jamie Whitney was the most amazing, amazing, amazing director, loves kids. He was fifty years old at the time when he did it, and he loves he loves, loves, loves children. And the writers were amazing. And Keith Chapman is so so talented. And Frank, who owned the animation studio Guru, like all the people there, they were so they were so passionate about it. ⁓ and was it immediate Like was success It was pretty quick. Tell you a funny story. You know how I knew that it was that it had a chance to go was I was watching on Instagram's the the amount of people that were making birthday cakes for their kids. That was my test. And so I was I was like I was so shocked. I was like, ⁓ my god, ⁓ there's a lot of birthday cakes out there. and ⁓ yeah, so the first year it's it's ⁓ it started to take off. It was rating well, the the sales were great. ⁓ and But w no one expected it to to continue to climb and then to have the the longevity. And that was the biggest thing was we said to ourselves in our in the second year, we said, let's go paw for five. Let's get five seasons of paw patrol. And then after sixth season, we were like paw for ten. And I think in our eighth season, we were like paw forever. And so every year we bring out a new season, we bring in specials, we have themes in in every season, as you know. Yeah. Right. And then we started making movies, which no one thought we could ever make movies. ⁓ I was trying to make up for my Bakugan days. Right, right. and ⁓ you know, and we're just like staying with it, committing to it and and not not ⁓ just very committed to it. And how does that work again now tactical question? How does it work inside of Spin Master? Is it there's like a division that just does Yeah, so we'll or So we actually have three creative centers. We don't call them divisions, we call them creative centers. And so one is all about digital games, which is mostly ⁓ Toca Boca, which we acquired in two thousand sixteen. And then we have an entertainment creative center. And so they they produce Paw Patrol, ⁓ Abbey Hatcher, ⁓ you know, we've produced fourteen shows in our career. So they produce all the shows, they produce the movies, which I'm super proud about. and 'cause we had never made movies before. And then we have the Toy Creative Center. Got it. Yeah. But then something like Paw Patrol kind of go is in both the toy. Yeah, so the so the toy the toy creative center makes makes the toys for the s for the show. Right. Yeah. Well. ⁓ I'm curious what you I don't know anything about the toy business other than buying toys. ⁓ what is the future? Like what has changed? Has anything changed in the toy business now? Like does AI change anything? Does the is there s is there something changing in this world? Has it changed a lot since you got into the business? I would say it changed around two thousand and twelve, thirteen, fourteen. There was a lot of age compression. So kids started st at about eight, they stopped playing with toys. Right. Before they they play at like ten, eleven. Right. So it compressed down to eight and it's kind of held steady there. And I also thought back in the in in 2012 to 15 that the iPad there'd be so much, you know, time and attention spent over there. But the truth is kids still love physical toys. And it's not like a crazy growth industry, but the physicality of, you know, using your imagination or wish fulfillment or wanting to hold something in your hand ⁓ or an activities or role play, those are still classic play patterns that kids still want to experience in the in the physical form. And now I I think you have I think you actually have an expanded audience because you have that which is staying ste steady. And then you have things like Minecraft or Roblox or in our case like Toca Boca, where kids spend some time digitally, but they still want to do some stuff in the physical realm. And then, you know, we bought a company called Millicent Doug, which is famous for wooden toys, ⁓ which is all about like open ended play. And parents really want their kids doing open ended play. They don't want them on the screens. ⁓ actually thinking about just talking about it with you, I think the the c the industry for kids has actually expanded. But in digital and toys. Right. The age compression was because of the dig because of the iPad and ever is that I I think it was I think it was just it could've been video games or just other competing things. Yeah. You know, kids just, you know getting older faster. You know? That's definitely I mean that's definitely kids wanting phones or that that type of stuff. Right. I wonder if it's all gonna go backwards in the other direct like I feel like there's some push obviously that that w you don't want your kids on screen. Like we're getting to a point now where definitely the the the trend is going in the other direction. Correct. You know? ⁓ and and I Yeah you may see the toy industry I think so I I wouldn't be surprised again. Yeah. 'Cause it feels like we're starting to see people block you know, the YouTube kids like you know, and that kind of stuff and and pushing that age back up. I don't know. I mean I have no idea, but ⁓ yeah, that's interesting. It makes sense that that that that would ⁓ happen. What's the future for Spinmaster? Like if you fast forward three years, five years, you know, what's the future? I think there'll be a lot about how we redefine how we tell stories to kids. ⁓ I'll come back. Maybe if you invite me back in a couple of years, I I'll be able to share a little bit more elaborate a little bit more information on that. ⁓ you'll see us do more stuff around education for kids. I'm very passionate about that. Reading for for children, helping kids read. ⁓ so a little bit more around AI and and ⁓ tech for children, education, a lot of innovation and and ⁓ a lot of storytelling for children. very quickly I wanna go to your background. ⁓ Can you share kind of the the the history of your family kind of going back 'cause again, back to the work ethic and kind of probably some of that. It seems like in the book it you talk about that. Like where where does your family come from? You know, all my grandparents were from Bulgaria. and my parents and my family was, you know, there for hundreds of years, ⁓ very well established and integrated into the into the community. ⁓ and unfortunately after the Second World War were displaced. And they moved to Israel and my parents grew up in Israel and then w in their early twenties they moved to South Africa. That's where I was born with me and my sisters. And then we moved to Canada when I was five. And I grew up there and built the business there. So I I'm like I'm like a third Israeli, a third South African, and a third Canadian. I'm I'm just like a mutt. I'm just a mutt. And ⁓ You know, our our family was a classic immigrant entrepreneur. My dad had a ⁓ small Persian carpet gallery that sold ⁓ high-end Persian carpets to people in Toronto. My mother worked in the business and classic families at 6 30. We had dinner every night together as a family. My mom would come home like 4 30, make dinner, we'd have dinner as a family. Like you never got out of dinner in our family. Okay. And you got ne you never got out of cleaning. Okay. Like no one could leave the kitchen. That was the rule until everything's cleaned. ⁓ and in the kitch and in the dinners, my parents always spoke about business. Yeah. They did not talk about it wasn't really about like how's school going or all that type stuff. It was like all business conversations. So the bad part was I didn't, you know, I didn't get to share many things. The interesting part was I was just l listening and absorbing and hearing the stories. And my parents had like very colorful friends and clients and and all that type of stuff. ⁓ so the business kind of like got imbued in me. But then the flip side is like because we were classic entrepreneurs, my dad closed the the his Persian carpet business after 10 years. And then he got a job as a ⁓ VP of sales at a juice company. And I was like I was super like proud because he had like a you know you know like a VP title type of thing. And then he got let go six months later, which kind of ⁓ which wasn't great. And then he opened up another business And that only lasted for two years. And then my mother had to she was working retail. So there was a lot of instability. ⁓ in there was stability, but instability in terms of ⁓ money and jobs and and finances and stuff like that. and so I guess that that also impacted me in terms of wanting to have my own business and ⁓ controlling my own destiny and and and having equity in something. You know, 'cause my dad was always I I I define as like the junior partner. So he had like profit sharing, but he wasn't the one calling the shots in the businesses. and and ⁓ so he didn't he didn't take the full risk and he didn't have the full equity. ⁓ and so seeing that instability, I wanted to make sure that my life was more stable at the end of the day. And you you you started working pretty early. ⁓ yeah, I I I was t I was doing telemarketing, I was shoveling snow, I was delivering newspapers. You know, in university we were selling ⁓ we were selling fertilizer door to door. Okay. Like a lot of between the telemarketing. That one sounds like the worst one of all of them. It wasn't it wasn't the best thing. It wasn't the best. But but I tell you what it teaches you is like it it's actually it's actually great. It's actually the telemarketing in that is actually great because you actually have to interact with another human being from scratch. Right. And you have to take rejection, right? A lot, right? And then you have a win. And then suddenly you like sold someone you some fertilizer for their lawn. You you gave them a service that they needed, but you were able to develop a relationship and they trusted you. Right. So I think that that repetition, I would I I wouldn't trade it for the for anything. I did other things. I sc I scalped tickets, you know, I had I had the police come to my house one night. Really? For scalping tickets? Yeah, no, I I I I okay, in the night in it was the eighties, not even the nineties. In the eighties I I lined up, okay, Pink Floyd came in nineteen eighty six. And I lined up for three nights, three days and three nights. I was fifteenth in line. There was three thousand people by the end of the t at the end. And I got sixteen tickets. Okay, third row centers. Whoa. Okay. And I scalped them. And I made three thousand bucks. And then there was a guy in my class, okay, who was telling me about the stock to buy. And I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna buy the stock. And my dad's like, Don't put all your money in. And I'm like, I'm putting all the money in. Dad is gonna work. And he's like, Don't put all the money. He's like, if you're gonna do it, put half. Go for half. And of course I went for the whole thing. To zero? To zero. I lost my I lost all my money that I made for the Pink Floyd tickets. And sorry, this this is where I was getting at. Sorry, being long winded here. But so then I scalped the Who tickets, okay, to make some money. And then back in the eighty in the eighties, you know when you you put your numbers on the bottom of the paper? Yeah. So I had them all over the city of Toronto, put ⁓ on like all the ⁓ the polls. Yeah. And so I got this call ⁓ from this guy. He said, you know, I want to come and buy some tickets from you. So I'm like, sure. And he's like, came at like 6:30, doorbell rings. We're all eating dinner. I go answer the door. He's shows up with this woman. And she's and they're like, you know, can we see your tickets? And I had like about 20. And I was like, okay, give me a second. I go down to my room in the basement. And I'm like, should I bring all 20? Should I bring all 20 up? I'm like, I got a bad feeling about this. So I brought six. I bring up the six. I show them the six. Okay, they look at the six and then they take out their ID and they show me their badge and they're like, You know, it's not legal to sell tickets. And I'm like I'm like, Mom and And then and and then and then my mother comes out, she's like, Yeah, come sit down. So we sit in the in the dining room and they they rate me up like a summons. Yeah. They take my tickets, they leave. I go back and sit and have dinner. My parents don't even say anything. Nothing. They don't even like it they don't They didn't even acknowledge that it basically They didn't even skip a beat. Did not even skip a beat. It was like, you know, my son's being entrepreneurial. This is great. ⁓ and then the next day my mom was like, you know, you should go back and get your tickets. So I went to the I went to the police station. What? Yeah, I went to the police station and I got my tickets. Cause there it was actually, yeah, for I don't know exactly what happened, but the guy gave me my tickets. It was a different guy. He gave my tickets back. So, you know, when I was younger, I was doing all these Like, yeah, that's a great story. Yeah, I got my tickets back. It was great. It was like to try my luck. You don't ask, you don't go, you don't get. Yeah, you know. ⁓ but I was trying to do all sorts of things, you know, in high school, you know. But I I those those were beautiful lessons of like, you know, as my dad says, you know, shortcuts are long cuts. Yeah. Shortcuts are long cuts. And and both those that was it for my scalping basis. Yeah. Yeah. Wow, what a that's a good story. ⁓ I wonder how it'd react if my kids did that. Probably similar way. My wife would definitely react. She'd be like, Yeah, good, good. ⁓ what ⁓ in all of this stuff, like what you know, again, long time, lot of lot of work, a lot of grinding, all of it. What what drives you? I mean like at at your like real core, what I tell people for me it's like when someone says I can't do something, I'll spend the rest of my life trying to prove people wrong. Like what is it that drives you? I think it's my curiosity. It's I'm curious about trying different things and bringing things into the world. It's i it's it's just a deep, deep desire to like you know, create. I like I I ⁓ maybe I'm a creator, you know, deep down inside, like I just like to I like to bring things I'm a very visual person. I think that's probably why I ended up in consumer products and toys, ⁓ and T V shows and stuff like that. ⁓ I can't write a line of code. ⁓ but yeah, it's just ⁓ and and a and a desire to learn. Like I think it's cool. Like like And learning for me wasn't in the textbook, it's it's in the real life. And so like the ability to do things ⁓ is for me is is is the driver. And and I also like I I do like when people say that things are not possible. Like when we made the Paw Patrol movie, everybody said you can't make that movie. Right? No one's gonna come out. And I'm like, but I can feel it. Like and I I I don't understand why. And so I wanted to actualize on that. When you think about this journey, these are obviously all these very positive things. ⁓ what are the sacrifices you've you've had to make? Like is this has it been a you you you wrote something in the book about talking about the early years where like your friends are partying and going on this stuff. No no go No, I'd say I those are the easy sacrifices because you y if you're gonna start a business young, you will have to sacrifice something, right? You can't you can't be partying as much. You can't take as many holidays. ⁓ you you have to be focused. You can still balance. I mean I had great twenties. But y but y you have to be balanced. But I think the the biggest sacrifice came to me in my later years to my health. Because and even before that, I would I would constantly get burnt out every three or four months and without And instead of taking some some time for me, right, and putting myself first, ⁓ I was constantly put putting the business first. And I would just push through the burnout and it would just get longer and longer and longer. And then finally I would, you know, like eventually take a holiday. But I would be in a burnout stage for like three months. Not knowing that I was kind of knowing, but not knowing it it was only years later that you can see the patterns evolving. and then not till I took my sabbatical and I stepped down from being CEO. co-SEO of the company, did I realize like how after twenty-seven years of this repetition and being on the treadmill, you know, product after product after product after product and building the company and growing the company, that my health was not ⁓ where it needed to be. Could you have done it differently, knowing what you like do you think that it's possible to do it with some balance? Yes. Yes. I I I personally, that's probably one of my blind spots is balance in my life. I think my two business partners are much more balanced than I am. ⁓ yes, I think you can a hundred percent I think you can I think the the the notion of you need to be driven by like some deep, deep, deep stuff and that will drive you success. I d I don't agree with that. I think for myself I was basically a workaholic and I used work as a means to ⁓ distract myself from deeper issues that I needed to deal with myself and to numb myself. And you know, the the thing about being a workaholic is that it's it's the most acceptable form of of addiction. That's true. Right? It's like, ⁓ you got all the accolades, everything's going great, you know, the results are fantastic. But what you're doing to yourself. So I think it was a combination of not r realizing that it was a workaholic and I think that was a sacrifice that I that I that was the price that I paid. is my my health and some of my ⁓ mental health. ⁓ last question. I don't know if it gets too deep for your No, no, no, that's not too deep. Actually this this is the thing that's that pretty much ⁓ but that's the honest answer. So many so many people have said the reason I asked that question is because I again it's back to the point of I I want to make it clear to people. Like it's not you can't have you c in my opinion you can't be great at this, great at family, great at health Great if it's it's there's not enough hours in the in the day. Now I think you can probably balance two things at one time, maybe. You know, but but when people are like, Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm I'm gonna hang out with my friends, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna also not get burnt out. Also the business is gonna crush it, but also it's like real life, there's literally not enough hours. And this is what out of a hundred CEOs, I think ninety-nine have basically said exactly the same thing. ⁓ and and every person though says, well maybe now knowing what I know, it could be more balanced. But in it, pretty much everyone I've interviewed has said they had no balance. You don't real you don't realize it. Yeah. You don't realize it when you're in it. Yeah. You you you and I I'm still not even sure. That's why I haven't started another company, because I'm so scared of of not having the balance. I'm not even sure that I even knowing what I know, I'm not sure that I can balance. Right. You know, because because once you're in it, it becomes your you know, it's like it you becomes your baby and you're like, Well I'm gonna make this thing suc you know, if you have that brain and then you're just like, That's it, that's what I'm doing. Yeah. ⁓ so ⁓ all right, last question for you. Knowing everything you know today, all the experiences you've had, everything, what is the one piece of advice you'd go back and give yourself before I was gonna say before you started your first job, but basically before you start Spin Master? It's similar to what we're talking about before, I would say, you know, self care and put yourself first. Put yourself first before everything else because you will actually perform better in the business if you are putting yourself first. And ⁓ Yeah, and it's it's it's your life. Yeah. Right. And listen, you'll get all the things that accrue to you as a result of ⁓ putting in the heart work and at time and effort. But I think you can get both. I I I do believe like you know, I I wish that I would have started my own personal journey around ⁓ self help and meditation and yoga and exercise and all those sorts of things and like ⁓ you know, my mornings are very sacrosanct to me. Right, so I wake up even like I had a bad sleep last night, but I still got up at five thirty this morning, I went for a run. 'Cause I I I wanted to be my best today as best as I possibly could. ⁓ you know, it's like there's there's there's so many things that I I wish I would have read and learned that would have Taking the edge off for me that could have made me perform better if I put myself first. Yeah, that's but it took but it took me a while to get to get there. Awesome. Ronan, thank you very much. Thanks, buddy. Thank you for doing this. I I really enjoyed this. And ⁓ for those best host ever. Okay. Best host, most prepared podcast host ever. Fantastic. Thank you very much. ⁓ for those listening, if you enjoyed, ⁓ I hope you did, please share this out with your networks and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CO podcast.