EP 3:15 Shadow Work for Chemsex Recovery with Jamie

WEBVTT
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:08.640
Big aha moment in my own therapy when I realized actually I didn't actually think of myself as a man because I was gay.
00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:10.720
And I didn't realize I'd been walking around with this.
00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:11.919
That was in my shadow.
00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:16.239
Okay, so it was playing out in all sorts of like weird and wonderful ways.
00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:17.039
Yeah.
00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:22.399
Yeah, just just the notions like that, the emasculation that we sometimes feel.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:22.960
Yeah.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:24.960
Um, and again, I'm I'm massively joking.
00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:25.760
Chemsex.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:33.439
Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:42.719
Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:52.479
Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
00:00:52.880 --> 00:00:55.119
Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:55.359 --> 00:01:00.560
I am excited today because we're going to talk about a topic that I've been trying to get on the podcast for a while now.
00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:08.640
Couldn't find the right people, person, and I have found the right person now in my uh travels around the country.
00:01:08.799 --> 00:01:12.959
And um, we've we did we connected on LinkedIn, we've gotten to know each other.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.079
He's a delightful, delightful man named Jamie Willis.
00:01:16.239 --> 00:01:19.680
I'm going to introduce you, Jamie, and then I'll let you talk.
00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:24.799
Um But we're talking about oh we're oh I didn't say we're talking about shadow work, by the way.
00:01:25.040 --> 00:01:35.040
If you're listening, if you are interested in shadow work, always were intrigued by it, keep listening to the whole podcast because you're going to have uh a treat today.
00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:42.719
Because Jamie Willis is a therapist, he's a clinical specialist in chemsex addiction and LGBTQ mental health.
00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:47.519
He has 22 years of experience across service development and frontline practice.
00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:57.200
From 2009, Jamie found himself working with chemsex related issues as they began to emerge with increasingly increasing regularity.
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:00.480
By 2014, he was a manager of Antidote.
00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.239
If you're from London, you I'm sure you've heard of Antidote.
00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:12.000
Um, it's a pan-London LGBTQ drug and alcohol support service, very much at the epicenter of the chemsex crisis.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:20.400
He developed services and group work programs aimed specifically at supporting clients struggling with problematic chemsex use and related harm.
00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:33.840
And then in 2015, he was published in the British Medical Journal calling for chemsex to be made a public health issue and subsequently bringing chemsex-related harm to much wider professional attention.
00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:44.479
Previous roles include addictions lead at a therapeutic community in Northern Thailand and developing alcohol support services for young LGBTQ people in South London.
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:54.319
Jamie also worked as an AE substance misuse counsellor at a busy North London hospital, qualified as a just taught therapist.
00:02:54.479 --> 00:03:08.719
In 2007, Jamie has developed an integrative practice where, in addition to stabilization and harm reduction approaches, he also draws on influences from Jungian shadow work, attachment theory, internal family systems, and trauma-informed approaches.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:14.080
We could probably do three or more podcasts, Jamie, on other topics like that.
00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:22.479
Jamie believes effective therapy in his space requires not just technical knowledge, but a deep understanding of the shame, trauma, and community dynamics at play.
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:32.879
He provides a highly professional, energetic, and affirming therapeutic space for clients and is committed to supporting fellow professionals through collegial discussion and service design.
00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:42.319
In recent years, Jamie has been based in Southeast Asia, continuing to work online with clients on chemsex recovery, addiction, and LGBTQ mental health issues.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:49.840
He also has provided consultancy and training internationally, including for services in Uganda and Malaysia.
00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:54.800
He is now based back in London, where he continues his private practice.
00:03:55.120 --> 00:04:00.960
We are having all the big names on season three on the podcast, and you are one of the biggest.
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:03.120
Wow, what a resume.
00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:04.800
Welcome, Jamie.
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:06.960
Thank you so much, Dallas.
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:13.120
It's it's great to be here, and I'm I'm so glad we were able to finally link up and make this happen.
00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:14.879
So yeah, thank you so much.
00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:22.560
It's amazing to me how humble you are and just how what what a present you give.
00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:27.439
You know, because I I read your bio before the podcast and I was like, what the fuck?
00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:37.040
I was like, he's done all this stuff that you would never guess, the way that you are relatable and just so welcoming to me.
00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.560
You've just been so welcoming to me, and I just love talking with you.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:43.279
Um even through even through LinkedIn messages.
00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:45.199
I just I just think you're a great person.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:46.639
That that's amazing.
00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:47.519
Thank you, Dallas.
00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:52.560
I mean, I um I I don't quite know how to respond to that actually, but thank you.
00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:53.680
Thank you so much.
00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:54.639
Are you blush?
00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:55.439
Are you blushing?
00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:56.319
I am blushing.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:57.439
It's the heat, it's the heat.
00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:58.560
Yeah, it's the heat.
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:02.560
It's actually hot in London, right?
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:03.920
It is, it is actually.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:12.000
It's gone from um it's gone from kind of winter to high summer, and then it's been about 20, 24 hours we go from 14 degrees to 27 degrees.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:18.160
Anybody who's ever been to London knows that we don't have AC here either, so it is genuine hot here today.
00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:18.959
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:20.639
Yeah, I was just learning that.
00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.519
Yeah, um, I'm gonna try to adjust this light.
00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:24.560
Here we go.
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.600
As I was saying before the podcast, you gotta light me right.
00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:30.959
You gotta light me just right, or I'll look 80 years old.
00:05:32.240 --> 00:05:34.720
We distracted for the rest of the conversation, otherwise.
00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:37.920
Exactly I will, I will.
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:39.279
I will.
00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:53.120
So before we get started talking about Jungian's shadow work, which I am fascinated by, um, my program Recovery Alchemy is kind of based on the Jungian's discussion on alchemy.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.879
And um, so I'm I'm really digging that subject.
00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:03.519
But do you have lived addiction experience of your own that you would feel comfortable sharing with us?
00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:04.879
Sure.
00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:08.000
It's it's something I don't share that often, actually.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:18.639
And I mean for no particular reason, it just doesn't feel but no, I mean my um my substance use misuse, uh we're back a long way.
00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:20.560
I mean, I'm 54 now.
00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:24.879
Um but I started using when I was uh 11 years old.
00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:30.000
Uh there's there there's a lot of addiction prevalent in the family.
00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.600
So, you know, it was it was already there and I was already familiar with it.
00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:37.120
So but I started using and using heavily from from that age.
00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:41.040
Uh like through my code teens or through my twenties.
00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:48.240
Uh I was using very, very kind of heavily and getting in a lot of trouble and quite leading quite a miserable existence, I have to say.
00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:55.600
Um, I mean I I I have to say it preceded the the the chemsex phenomenon, actually.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:03.199
By the time the chemsex phenomenon really started to evolve, I was had pretty much matured out of my own using.
00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:09.120
Um, because I didn't I didn't follow uh a formal recovery programme, I didn't go kind of 12-step or anything.
00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:12.160
I had a bit of a kind of aha moment as I hit 30.
00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:20.399
Um, and just kind of looking at the rest of my life and thinking, I'm gonna end up in jail or probably dead unless I do something you know pretty radical.
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:25.360
Now, and and and that's what I did through a variety of different means, therapy being one of them.
00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:30.160
You know, I have a spiritual practice as well, which has really slowed me down through the years.
00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:32.879
So just just things like that, and some amazing people.
00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:38.160
I mean, you know, Dallas in this business, business of recovery, it's the people around you that really really, really matter.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:44.480
So I'm I'm very, very um grateful for and indebted to um you know a lot of people around me.
00:07:44.639 --> 00:07:53.040
But uh but yeah, it was um for for for about 20 about 20 years, it was uh very, very serious, quite chaotic using.
00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:07.439
So, you know, it's um a a lot a lot of lived lived experience and and and like a lot of people who've been involved in this kind of using, you know, you watch a lot of people around you fall by the wayside uh as well.
00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:10.160
So that that that that that 20 years.
00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:13.759
I don't I don't believe in in in in regrets.
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.920
I think it's sort of made me into the person that I am today.
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:23.920
Um but at the same time, you know, I'm I'm I'm pretty glad to be out of it, you know.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:25.600
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:37.279
Yeah, and for anybody listening, I I hear people kind of um wailing about and and upset about the number of years they've used.
00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:40.879
You know, like I've I've been doing this for ten years, right?
00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:44.799
And listen, that's really a drop in the bucket.
00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:52.159
Because people like Jamie you had a 20-year history with addiction, and now look what you've done.
00:08:53.039 --> 00:08:55.759
You've turned that all around and you've made meaning out of it.
00:08:56.240 --> 00:08:59.039
Such important meaning because you're doing big work.
00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:08.960
I I I love that you're working in Uganda and Malaysia as well, because I get a lot of DMs from them and no services whatsoever.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:09.919
Yeah, you know.
00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:10.720
Yeah.
00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:17.039
It's um I th I think it's it's it's times like that that it really does make everything worthwhile.
00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:32.960
And I mean you were very kind in what you said earlier about being humble or whatever, but you know, being a dad is I I I I think when you work with those guys in those, particularly in those countries, in those contexts, you know, you get you really get a a powerful sense of what dedication means, right?
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:41.919
So you know, I mean you've got work with people that working in incredibly hostile conditions, you know, but nonetheless super, super committed.
00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:49.120
And and and and I think, you know, I was asked to um you backtrack, so I was asked to do some consultancy for a service in Uganda.
00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.279
And I'm not gonna name services, those because it's still quite sensitive in those countries, you know.
00:09:53.360 --> 00:10:02.399
So uh, you know, I I I I I was approached to do some consultancy uh around kind of LGBTQ plus kind of stuff.
00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:09.120
Wasn't sure what kind of reception I was gonna get actually with the Ugandan team, you know, because you only ever hear negative things.
00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:16.399
And look, I've been around for long enough to know it doesn't represent a whole country or a whole people, but nonetheless, you know, there was a little bit of trepidation.
00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:17.840
It's like, how is this gonna land?
00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:20.000
And you know, those guys were amazing.
00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:22.000
You know, they they were so committed.
00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:26.240
I mean, just even doing training with me could have got them into serious trouble, you know.
00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.120
But they were just so committed to providing that support and that help anyway.
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:39.039
And you know, I think when you when you encounter people like that along the way, yeah, you know, it's just there's no place for ego in any of that kind of stuff.
00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:42.639
And so the same in Malaysia, you know, I spent quite a lot of time Kuala Lumpur.
00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.039
Um people doing chemsex work there.
00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:49.679
Again, very difficult for them to do so uh for various different reasons.
00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.799
It's not the most LGBTQ friendly environment.
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:56.559
Um, but nonetheless, they're in there and they're doing the work as well.
00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.519
You know, it's it's it's incredible what people do, it really, really is.
00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:06.559
So I think I'm always grateful to be a kind of a part of that that world, that field, if you like, you know.
00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:22.879
So and as you said, you know, it's this is what we do, we make meaning, you know, if we've been through these um situations, these environments, these difficult, easy trials and tribulations, if you will, you know, then uh a big part of recovery is meaning making.
00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:27.200
I think we'll we'll be talking about this today, actually, in terms of shadow work, right?
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:38.559
You know, when we talk about kind of a classic therapeutic pathway, you know, particularly saying in trauma or something, you know, we talk about kind of stabilization, processing, and and meaning making and integration, you know.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:43.919
So I think that's a that's a really good kind of framework for for recovery, basically, isn't it?
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:45.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is.
00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.200
Yeah, it is, yeah.
00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.840
So you are are undoubtedly an expert in chemsex.
00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:55.600
I mean, let's let's go ahead and say that and establish that.
00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:58.720
Um, and I I love your your writing.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:09.120
Um if you want to find Jamie's writing and his work, uh the best place I think is LinkedIn, unless you think there's a better, is there a website or repository?
00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:11.519
Yeah, that's that's definitely the best place, yeah.
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:18.159
Um yeah, Jamie Willis, we'll put his link, we'll put your link, can we put your LinkedIn link in the show notes?
00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.840
Um But he he writes lots of articles.
00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:23.279
Um it looks like he's on YouTube.
00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:24.960
I haven't even looked at that yet.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:29.279
Um but the the articles are just fascinating and very informative.
00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:39.759
And so with that said, we we could tackle all sorts of chemsex issues, but what we haven't talked about on this podcast yet is shadow work.
00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:48.320
Um and shadow work is one of those buzzwords that I think has been passed around a lot.
00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:53.120
You know, there was this on TikTok, there was this shadow work journal that just blew up.
00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:58.960
You know, like this girl made millions off of this shadow work journal.
00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:05.200
Um people are making millions off TikTok on anything, but um, I don't I think it's passed around a lot.
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:15.679
And I do my version of shadow work in my program, you know, I I don't dabble too deep into it because it's a coaching program and I'm not a specialist.
00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.480
Um, but I think it is misunderstood.
00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:31.200
And it's just one of those things where what I find is that when you mention shadow work, most people equate it to their bad side, like their negative side.
00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:37.840
And you I'm gonna let you correct me here if I'm wrong, but I say it's a blind spot.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:44.000
It doesn't have to be bad, it's just something about yourself you don't see or don't really you're not aware of.
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:57.360
It's like in your peripheral, is more to me, is is a better explanation than saying the shadow of me is this this bad part of me, like this negative side of me, right?
00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:59.519
So can you tell us like 101?
00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:01.039
What is what is shadow work?
00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.279
So I I think look, I I'm I'm really glad we're we're clarifying this today.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.559
You know, as you said, Dallas, there are a lot of misconceptions.
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:10.240
And I think just the name, right?
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:14.480
Shadow sounds a little bit right, a little bit spooky, a little bit woo-woo, doesn't it?
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.080
It's like woo, shadows, yeah.
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:16.480
Okay.
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:17.120
Yeah.
00:14:17.279 --> 00:14:17.919
Yeah.
00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:21.440
Look, I it might it might be worth just maybe getting a little bit of history.
00:14:21.519 --> 00:14:24.399
I don't want to get too kind of in the weeds as far as history of the.
00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:25.679
Take us in the weeds.
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:27.279
Take us in the weeds.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.039
Okay, we're we weed friendly here, are we?
00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:31.919
Yes, we are.
00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:32.799
We're we friendly.
00:14:33.200 --> 00:14:34.559
California sober.
00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:37.919
I love that so much.
00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:45.840
So look, I think that the the shadow or the concept of the shadow was um formulated by a psychiatrist called Carl Jung.
00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:51.039
And you don't have to know huge amounts about him, but he has been hugely influential.
00:14:51.200 --> 00:14:54.320
So even if you don't know the guy, you'll be familiar with some of his work.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:15:01.200
So he was born uh sort of uh late 19th century, very prominent in the early 20th century.
00:15:01.279 --> 00:15:03.440
He was a contemporary of Freud, uh, etc.
00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:04.000
etc.
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:12.240
So um, but if people have heard the terms things like kind of introvert and extrovert, you know, that was those are uh terms that were coined by him.
00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:21.120
Um also, if anyone's ever done one of those Myers Briggs personality testings, that's all based on on Jungian personality type.
00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:28.799
So even if you don't know him, you will have encountered his work and his influence somewhere, it's very much kind of absorbed into uh the mainstream.
00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:43.919
But I think when we're talking shadow work, I'm I'm really glad you said what you said there, Dallas, about one of the misconceptions misconceptions is that it's kind of evil or bad or or whatever, because it's it's absolutely not the case.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:52.799
I mean, put really simply, you know, shadow the shadow is where is kind of the repository where we push all the stuff that we don't want to deal with.
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:53.679
Yeah.
00:15:53.919 --> 00:16:16.399
So the things that we don't like about ourselves maybe, but the things that have been uh invalidated by the people around us, you know, so it may be things like you know, classic ones that come up a lot of things like neediness, um, things like kind of rage, power, masculinity and femininity, even, or these kinds of things, you know.
00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:26.320
So um what happens is that as we grow up, we have these notions, these attributes, um, these traits, if you like.
00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:36.000
But because they are frowned upon or stopped or prohibited, forbidden perhaps, then we we push them to one side, you know, we put them down.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:39.840
So it's a little bit like having the kind of the attic or or the basement in your home.
00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:44.399
You know, it's where we put all the stuff that we don't want or that we're not going to use or don't want to use.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.399
The but the the issue with the shadow is that it doesn't just go away.
00:16:50.559 --> 00:16:57.440
You know, it might be, as you said, I mean you use the term blind spot, it it might be out of sight and out of mind, but it hasn't gone away.
00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:05.279
Okay, so what it sort of does, it kind of sort of sits there and leads almost like a semi-autonomous life of its own.
00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:11.680
Okay, because it holds a lot of energy, you know, and it takes a lot of energy to keep these things in the shadow as well.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:22.319
So, I mean, to give a classic one, if we're talking, you know, uh for say the gay man, femininity, you know, it's been forbidden, it's been frowned on, it's been all those kinds of things.
00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:27.039
So you might push it away and try and sort of, you know, act more masculine or whatever.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:32.240
So your femininity gets pushed into the shadow, but there it becomes somewhat distorted.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:40.960
And so when it's there, then it can start to take on maybe some toxic traits or whatever, or come out in different ways.
00:17:41.119 --> 00:17:52.160
Because although although we've put it there, it still has the energy and kind of comes forth at times when we don't expect it, which is very much fits in with what you were saying about the blind spot.
00:17:52.480 --> 00:18:03.200
So we might find ourselves, you know, kind of self-sabotaging, we might find ourselves being kind of mean or bullying, you know, when we actually don't mean to be, it might be out of our awareness.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:04.640
You know, that happens quite a lot.
00:18:04.799 --> 00:18:19.279
If we think about in um a chemsex context, you know, actually, what one of the manifestations there can be things like sort of needing intimacy, you know, being vulnerable, those things, particularly for a man.
00:18:19.359 --> 00:18:25.519
I'm I'm massively generalizing here, but particularly for a man, those things can get pushed into the shadow because it's not allowed.
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:28.079
You know, men aren't vulnerable.
00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:35.359
Intimacy is wrong to need, to need intimacy, to need sex, even it's wrong.
00:18:35.519 --> 00:18:37.279
So it's all bad, it gets banished.
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:43.599
Okay, so what happens there is because the the repression holds a lot of energy.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:47.519
Okay, so it's all there sort of fermenting in the background.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:59.759
Now, the the price that we pay for doing that is a sense of not really feeling fulfilled in life, you know, because it takes a lot of like the life force, if you want to put it in that context, away.
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:05.039
So we feel that our lives can be a little bit kind of grayed out in a sense.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:09.680
You know, we're not we're not able to ask for what we need.
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:18.799
And so classic ones are, you know, we might want to be wanted, but because that's not acceptable, we'll settle for being desired, you know, which doesn't quite hit the same spot.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.279
And so it will manifest in different ways like that.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:30.799
Now, in a in a in what happens is where it becomes so repressed, it it's kind of builds up a head of steam.
00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:31.359
Okay.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:37.200
So if we are in a chemsex context, what then happens?
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:45.519
All that stuff comes out within a chemsex context because it's almost like you know, the um the guards have gone away.
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:46.160
Yeah.
00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:58.319
You know, so then it all comes forth, you know, and what then happens is we end up having a confrontation with some of our shadow elements, you know, but we're not prepared to do it.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:04.480
We're not psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, if you like, prepared to be able to have that confrontation.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.079
You know, there's a lot of power there.
00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:09.599
So we end up be gett becoming flooded by it.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:16.960
So rather than these kind of elements being our possession, they kind of flood us, they kind of move in and sort of take over.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:32.240
So we um when we're doing, I mean, when we're doing shadow work, what we're actually doing is really trying to formulate a relationship with these aspects, you know, because they're essentially they're disowned aspects, you know, put puts in view.
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:33.359
So does that make sense?
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.680
Love it.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:37.119
Love all of it.
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.160
Let me can I can I take a minute and review what you said?
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:43.119
Absolutely.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:44.240
Yeah.
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:50.799
Um and I and I um I'm also reflecting on how similar this is to uh uh internal family systems.
00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:52.079
Right?
00:20:52.319 --> 00:20:57.039
Isn't it similar in terms of yeah, yeah, these exiled parts of ourselves?
00:20:57.920 --> 00:20:58.319
Right.
00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:08.240
So with with those listening, one like you said, a a common part that we reject is our our gay part or our feminine part.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:17.519
You know, the the part of us that's identified by the outside by somebody else, invalidated by others, as you said, as gay.
00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:37.440
So for me, I like to make everything about me on the podcast, but for for me, being caught acting like I was on a stage performing on my tiptoes as I like I was in high heels, right, by a parent and ridiculed for that.
00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:37.920
Right.
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:45.119
At that moment, that was that part of me was invalidated by my parent.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:55.440
And so you're saying when those parts maybe maybe you're told you're too loud, like you said, you're too needy, you're you're too much, you're too something, you're too fat.
00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:56.799
Right.
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:58.960
Um or neglected.
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.480
And so the Spoken messages, you're not important enough.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:03.759
Right.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.640
Something like that.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:13.279
So we take that part of ourselves and we shove it into an I like a basement instead of an attic for some reason.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:16.559
But we we shove it, we shove it in the basement.
00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:18.559
And that's where it gets repressed.
00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:20.960
And I love that you said the word fermenting.
00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:22.960
Because there's that I love that word.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:24.400
I use that word too.
00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.559
Um is it ferments in there?
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:32.400
But and that also takes a lot of energy to we we shoved it to the side.
00:22:32.559 --> 00:22:42.079
And so when we shove it in there, I I love that you say it gets distorted, it takes on a life of its own, it gets it, it takes on these these um traits.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:49.039
So it's a real part of us with its own personality, right?
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.319
You you could just tell me if I'm not if I'm off track here.
00:22:53.839 --> 00:22:55.599
You're well on track there, Dallas, actually.
00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:08.880
Um and I'm really glad you brought in the the IFS the internal family systems thing, because it's it's very, very closely linked with that exiled parts, you know, absolutely, but the energy it takes to keep those parts exiled as well.
00:23:09.039 --> 00:23:18.079
You know, so in IFS internal family systems, we'll talk about protector parts, we'll talk about managers and firefighters, you know, keeping those wounds from being activated, right?
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.079
So it's it's exactly the same thing.
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:21.920
And I and I think it's worth mentioning.
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:28.240
I mean, we're talking about shadow work in the Jungian context, you know, but there's lots of different languages and lots of different frameworks.
00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.519
This is it's not new, and Carl Jung never claimed that it was.
00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:36.319
I mean, one of the things I really love about him is that he draws on so many different influences.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:43.279
So he draws on kind of spirituality and kind of archaeological archaeology and anthropology, and I mean all of these kinds of things, you know.
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.519
So what he actually did was took his learning from there, as well as his own learning.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:55.279
I mean, he's a very accomplished psychotherapist and psychiatrist, um, and really kind of formulated this into the concept of the shadow, right?
00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:56.880
Yeah.
00:23:57.279 --> 00:23:58.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:05.680
And so when we engage in chemsex, it's like the basement door is swung open.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:06.240
Yeah.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.720
And all the parts come running out.
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:09.359
Right.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:17.759
We talked about this in another episode with a psych a psychotherapist about shoving your parts you're like kids, shoving them in the closet, right?
00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:20.960
And then when you get you know when you do chemsex, they all they all come out.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:30.960
But you're you use the word flooded, um, and we're confronted by the parts that we've been repressing this whole time.
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:39.440
And that confront that it is it is confronting, but it and it's something we're not ready for either at all.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:40.240
Right?
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:59.200
And so in shadow work, the goal from what you said is to get to know this part and assess what it needs and to kind of negotiate and create a relationship with with these parts that we have rejected in ourselves.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:24:59.839
Is that right?
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:01.839
That's that's 100% right.
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:15.039
And because I think if you look at any kind of cultural background, you know, they they will have kind of rituals and containers and things like ways of meeting the shadow, because we all have shadow parts.
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:23.200
You know, I mentioned things like you know, power, violence, aggression, you know, we all have the capacity to manifest those things, you know.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:36.400
So if you look at sort of other cultures, other frameworks, you know, a big part of that, whether it's kind of spiritual recovery, even actually, a lot of that is about building a relationship with the shadow.
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:48.079
Now, I mean, you can kind of use maybe uh an example there, which is it's it's a difference between building a relationship relationship with it and getting to know it, taming it if you like.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:57.519
There's a lovely metaphor I can use in just a moment, but um but kind of taming it, but but but also ensuring that you are strong enough to withstand that confront that confrontation.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:03.759
And that's what a lot of the work is around, again, whether it's spiritual recovery, whatever it is, okay.
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:08.079
Because if you're not, then what happens is the shadow consumes you.
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:16.319
You know, if you try and confront the shadow uh before you're either strong enough or it's not within a framework, it's not within a ritualized kind of way or whatever.
00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:18.160
That's what we mean by flooding.
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.599
Okay, now I think you know, I I've said this to people many times.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:30.319
One way of maybe thinking about that is like nuclear energy, often liken it to nuclear energy, in that the shadow can be an amazing resource.
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:32.799
You know, we don't have to fear it, we really don't have to fear it.
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:36.559
It can be a fantastic resource, but it has to be respected.
00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:50.000
So if you think about nuclear energy, okay, so um treat it in the right way, you know, with the right container, the right protocols, the right, you know, lots of sort of safety stuff and everything like that.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:54.400
You harness that and it's it's an incredibly powerful source of energy.
00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:54.880
No?
00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:05.519
If you just went in there and just goes, right, we're gonna do nuclear energy and the the container's weak and the protocols aren't observed, whatever, what happens?
00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:06.480
Bless you.
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.359
What happens?
00:27:09.279 --> 00:27:11.839
You end up with you end up with Chernobyl, right?
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.119
You end up with meltdown.
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:15.920
And and and that's what happens when we try to do that.
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:21.759
So kind of bringing it into the kind of chemsex context, and I guess I'm referring more to problematic chemsex.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:23.839
We know it sits on a continuum here, but yeah.
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:24.319
Yes.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:38.319
Um what happens is that we confront those shadow elements within the chemsex context, which isn't ritualized, usually, is a very poor container if there is any container there at all.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.519
And we're exposed to all of our kind of more shadowy elements.
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:46.640
Now, because they have been in the shadow, they've been in the basement, as you put it, they can be distorted.
00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:54.720
If we develop a relationship, what we do is that we kind of um undistort that, if that's even a word, okay.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:28:00.319
We we transform that, we transform it into something, and it becomes in the service of us.
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:03.200
Okay, we're in relationship, we integrate it.
00:28:03.359 --> 00:28:03.599
Okay.
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.160
So what happens if we do it in something like a chem sex context?
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:16.000
We meet all these shadow shadowy elements in their distorted forms, and then that can consume us and and in some cases even destroy us.
00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:16.480
Yeah.
00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:17.599
Does that make sense?
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:18.400
Uh yeah.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:18.799
Yeah.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:19.200
Yeah.
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:19.440
Okay.
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:23.920
We could also say that we alchemize that part, couldn't we?
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:24.400
We do.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.000
Loving that.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:30.799
Loving that link in the recovery alchemy.
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:32.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.079
But it is.
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:38.480
I mean, look, yeah, I mean, you laugh and and everything, but that's that's exactly what we're talking about.
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:40.400
There are lots of ways of doing it.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:53.920
I mean, I often um draw on the example of the BDSM King Confetish community, actually, um, as as a framework, you know, because they do deal with arguably shadow shadowy elements, you know.
00:28:54.000 --> 00:29:02.559
If you go into a BDSM scene, if it's done properly, you know, and then you'll go into that, you'll talk about what your desires are or aren't, as the case may be.
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:14.160
You know, so you'll be talking about things like power and control and wanting wanting to um experience pain or inflict pain, and you know, it's all negotiated, you know.
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:25.759
Now, if you if you think about it in that context, there will there's the ritual, there's a negotiation, there's the ritual, okay, there's there are safe words, um, everything is contained, yeah.
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:27.359
Again, if it's done properly.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:28.079
All right.
00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:34.000
So you're able to explore all of these elements in a way which is ritualized.
00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:41.200
Okay, there's negotiation, there's respect, there's consent, there's um, as I said, the safe words, all of this kind of stuff.
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.799
And really, really importantly, there's the aftercare.
00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:45.839
Yeah?
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:46.400
Right.
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:47.119
Yeah.
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:58.079
So, you know, you finish the scene, whatever, and then the aftercare, whatever you've negotiated, whatever you need around that might be you know, somebody holding you, just people giving you water, the kind of the gentle grounding.
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.400
You know, so there's a coming back from.
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:10.079
So if you think about confrontation with shadow, there's the negotiation, there's the building of the relationship, there's the ritualization, and there's the coming back from it.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:20.000
You know, so there's actually a lot of learning and a lot of kind of technology, if you like, that can be taken from the kind of BDSM kink fetish scene, you know, as an example.
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:35.519
So I think you know, sometimes when I'm sort of talking about that with people, it makes a little bit more sense, you know, because actually a lot of clients that I have seen down through the years end up traumatized.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:37.200
I mean, let's just call it what it is, right?
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:46.799
Because you know, they go into a chemsex scene, they explore extreme BDSM sometimes scenes, you know, right.
00:30:46.960 --> 00:31:18.000
And they might have gone from like you know, vanilla right to extreme practices, okay, under the influences of various different substances, no safe words, no regard, and there's no um no real ritual, usually, maybe some in there, you know, but it's the coming back as well, you know, because if you think about if you've been through um a BDSM scene, okay, the aftercare ritual and all that kind of stuff, and you're with other people, and it's it's very much held, you know, metaphorically and you know, uh physically.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:31.440
At the end of a chemsex scene, if there hasn't been all the ritual negotiation and all that kind of stuff, it's just at the end, it's just you on your own, twitchy, paranoid, yeah, ashamed for what you've of what you've of what you've just done in many cases.
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:31.839
Yep.
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:33.920
You know, so that's that's what we're talking about.
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:42.559
You've confronted your shadowy elements or shadow side if you want and you weren't ready for it, it's consumed you, and now you're just feeling well.
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:49.599
I mean, basically, basic you know, shadow work, shadow work without containers is is just re-traumatization.
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:50.640
That's essentially what it is.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.079
Re-traumatization, yeah.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:32:01.440
So this is why it's so important because when clients come in, in a in a sense, what we're doing is reverse engineering a little bit.
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:02.240
Yeah?
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:05.200
Because they've already exposed themselves to the shadow.
00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:05.839
Ah.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:06.799
All right.
00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:18.079
So what we can do with that is, and why it's so important to do the shadow work, is that actually it's like, okay, look, because it's not, it doesn't have to be all bad.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:26.799
Okay, it's like, look, you've been exposed to stuff, you did it in a way which was unboundaried and uncontained, and it's kind of consumed you, nearly destroyed you.
00:32:26.960 --> 00:32:30.079
But there was there is some stuff in there that you can take from it.
00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.119
It's uh it has allowed you to explore some elements of yourself.
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:45.359
Okay, now we are reverse engineering in that we now might have to do some trauma work or something around that, and then we talk about okay, how do you now integrate this experience?
00:32:45.680 --> 00:32:49.519
You know, but this is this is why it is so incredibly important.
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:54.079
Thank you.
00:32:54.400 --> 00:33:07.599
So thinking about what you said was for someone who's not Ray, or if they don't have if it's okay, number one, respect the shadow.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:24.559
So I I want their listeners to hear this is that no matter what that shadow is, respecting it and having compassion for it is basically respecting and having compassion for yourself because it's an aspect of you.
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:36.319
And what I see often is we're so used to uh rejecting ourselves as gay men and hating ourselves is that uh we hate those parts.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.759
Um and I in my program we talk about the part that wants to use.
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:46.160
There there is an aspect of me that wants to use meth.
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:53.759
But so so often we reject it, we hate it, we ridicule it, we isolate it, we put it down, right?
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:58.640
We we we say it's the it's the demon on my back, you know, we fight it.
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:01.359
It we're only saying that about ourselves.
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.599
And and I feel like it doesn't get you anywhere.
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:11.840
But we're but we want to be so negative about addiction, right?
00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.159
That it's bad, bad, bad, it's crystal meth.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:17.039
But this is a part of you, it's an aspect of you.
00:34:18.639 --> 00:34:22.320
So I I I I love that you said to respect that shadow first.
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:23.280
Yeah.
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:38.320
And and you said that if you're not if you don't approach this uh shadow work with ritual and container and protocol and aftercare, and if you're if you aren't equipped with all that, it could destroy you.
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:40.800
Could could you talk a little more about that?
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:43.119
I I absolutely can.
00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:49.599
I mean, because when we're talking about ritual uh and containment, and maybe I can give some examples of of what that might might look like.
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:59.360
You know, we've just been talking about the BDSM Kingfetch team because I think it's such a a concrete example of quite sophisticated shadow work actually and done well, okay.
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:06.880
Um, but if you if you think about what a what a container is, okay, so a container might be the therapy hour.
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.119
Okay, it's doing therapy.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:13.119
Um people explore shadows through art a lot of the time.
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:17.280
Art is a wonderful, wonderful medium, and uh a lot of clients that I've worked with will do that.
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:23.519
They will express themselves through art, whether that's poetry or drawing or whatever it is, you know.
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:35.840
So um there are there are ways that we do this, okay, which is about getting to know those parts, as you quite rightly said, that we might be feeling shame around.
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:40.239
Okay, so you're you're you're 100% spot on there, to be honest with you, Dallas.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:44.880
Dallas, when you talk about you know the the meth using part.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:54.480
So actually, we you know, we we look at what its function is, what does it allow you to what does it allow you to do or what does it allow you to stop feeling?
00:35:55.199 --> 00:36:05.920
And that there's a question sometimes, it's like that I get that I give to clients, which is if how would you express yourself sexually if you were completely unashamed?
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:16.400
You know, so actually getting to know that and and look for some people they might continue to explore kink or fetish or whatever.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.320
Some people it's like, look, I've already done that in chem sex, and okay, I've ticked that boxes it where I don't want to do that.
00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:22.719
Okay.
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:32.159
But uh what we what what is really, really important is the building of the relationship with the client, first of all.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:35.119
They have to kind they have to trust you as a therapist.
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:40.880
But actually, what we do is that we look at elements in their life where they've already got containers.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:46.000
Everybody will, you know, examples of that, okay, things that are contained.
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:55.679
So when we start exploring this with people, they they recognize actually that that the chemsex situation is very, very uncontained sometimes.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:00.639
And so what we then start doing, I mean, chemsex, we're talking about sex mostly, okay.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.760
So it's like, well, look, what what's what is what is it giving you?
00:37:04.159 --> 00:37:07.119
You know, so quite often it's not it's not even about the sex.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:08.559
Exactly, right?
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:10.960
Yes, the drugs are driving that and everything like that.
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:14.400
But I'll I'll I'll give you I'm sort of wandering out about a little bit here.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:21.760
But I know when I was running the group work program, something really, really stood out for me.
00:37:21.920 --> 00:37:25.920
And we all noticed this, me and a couple of colleagues doing these uh these programs.
00:37:26.559 --> 00:37:28.400
Chemsex structured day program.
00:37:28.639 --> 00:37:38.000
And over that, over the weeks when we did that, the amount of people we said actually, what they're really looking for is a relationship, they're looking for intimacy.
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:43.519
But it's but it's coming out in in in the chemsex context.
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:44.800
So it's like, right, okay.
00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:49.920
So when I said earlier about kind of reverse engineering, it's like, okay, well, what what what might that look like?
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:55.360
Intimacy, relationships, you know, but also looking at what's been put in the shadow in the first place.
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:08.239
I mean, we're talking about anger, people might be angry even at the community and themselves for kind of you know, body fascism or people being mean or just not feeling accepted within the community.
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:09.840
So that might be in the shadow as well.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:13.119
So we have to explore all of these kinds of elements.
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:14.400
You know, it's really important.
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:21.679
When we when we put the program together, we were very, very mindful of that process.
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:26.400
I mean, the first weekend, we didn't go straight in with like the really heavy stuff on the first weekend.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.320
It ran over four weekends, by the way.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:37.199
Um, first weekend um things like maybe kind of more behavioral stuff, you know, classic addiction um therapy stuff.
00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:48.960
And then over the weeks, as they built the container, which was the group, you know, they felt far more able to start exploring some of these um more difficult elements, you know.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:53.920
So actually being able to ask for what they want in a group, you know, for some people that's absolutely massive.
00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.639
Yeah, for some people they're like that, well, that's that's easy, but other for a lot of people actually it's not, you know.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:03.119
But also people just talking about some of the things that they've been doing within the chem sex field.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.920
So they'd be talking about things like you know, blood play and all that kind of stuff, you know.
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.880
So really, really like talking about some of this.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:16.239
And look, I know I know it sounds almost cliche, but it's true nonetheless, which is shame dies on exposure, right?
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.880
So people kind of getting to know this.
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:25.039
And once once things have been exposed, once you know the shadow, we're not looking to kill the shadow.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:27.599
All right, we're not looking to get rid of it, you know.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:32.079
What we're actually doing is kind of inviting it in and getting to know it a little bit more.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.079
You know, and you'll know from the internal family systems work that's that's what we do.
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.119
What's your role?
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.119
You know, what what what are you doing here?
00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:39.679
Oh, okay.
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:54.559
So you're that part which has been protecting against rejection, you know, or um or against you know anger or neediness or you know um effeminacy or even masculinity sometimes.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:00.960
You know, some some people feel very emasculated, you know, simply by sheer dint of being a gay man.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.199
That I mean that was part of my own journey, actually.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:12.400
That was a big aha moment in my own therapy when I realized actually I didn't actually think of myself as a man because I was gay.
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:14.480
And I didn't realize I'd been walking around with this.
00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:15.679
That was in my shadow.
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:20.000
Okay, so it was playing out in all sorts of like weird and wonderful ways.
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:20.800
Yeah.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:26.159
You know, just just think notions like that, the emasculation that we sometimes feel.
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:26.800
Yeah.
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:30.960
Um, and again, I'm I'm massively generalizing here, but it comes up a lot, you know.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:33.440
So this all gets put in the shadow as well sometimes.
00:40:33.519 --> 00:40:38.800
And so part of that is about bringing that back out into the light and using it as a resource.
00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:39.920
Okay, well, what does that mean?
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:41.840
What does it mean to be a man and gay?
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:42.400
Right?
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:51.599
So um, so it's incredibly important that we do this in a way which is respectful, which is, as I said, ritualized, that there is meaning making afterwards.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:57.280
I mean, I can give lots and lots of examples if you look at you know, kind of indigenous cultures, okay.
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:12.719
So the a a young man bec a uh a boy becoming a man, rather, you know, and he will be required to go off into the wilderness, you know, where he'll encounter fear, hunger, loneliness, all of that kind of stuff, you know.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:17.280
But then when he comes back to the village, he's welcomed with open arms.
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:20.239
And it it enables him to make meaning.
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.360
He goes from being a boy to a man, it's held by the community.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:28.159
So going off into the wilderness, if you like, is him meeting the shadow elements.
00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:32.159
And so there are so many examples of this, and so it's not so different for us sometimes.
00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:39.280
And I think, particularly, dare I say, for LGBTQ plus people, what we don't often have are like rites of passage.
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:56.239
You know, we a lot of us, myself included, you know, we kind of burst onto the scene and it's just like, yeah, everything and now, you know, and there isn't there isn't necessarily a kind of um um a graduated program for us to become healthy LGBTQ plus people, you know.
00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:00.639
So more and more so now there are lots of programs and things happening, thankfully.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.320
But that happens quite a lot, you know.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:06.719
We're just left to sort of fend for ourselves a little bit, you know, and that comes out a lot as well.
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:14.719
You know, people talk about coming out on the scene, you know, feeling quite lonely and afraid actually, but not feeling that they're they were able to express that, you know.
00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:16.559
So does that make sense?
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:19.280
I feel like I'm kind of going off on a bit of a tangent here, but yeah.
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:22.639
Well, I'm picking up what you're laying down.
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:25.599
I don't know about anybody else, but but yes, it makes sense to me.
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.920
And you know, I think the meaning making is important.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:38.800
And we had a I had a client on uh one of the podcasts here, and it was the the name of it is the gifts of chemsex, like the gifts you get from it.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:40.000
Yeah.
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:47.760
And as gay men, going through the chemsex experience, oftentimes is that is that rite of passage?
00:42:48.079 --> 00:42:55.199
It's it's something that gets your attention to to m force you to, like you're saying, to look at your shadow parts.
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:07.599
And then the recovery is not quitting the substance, it's the integration of these parts and beginning to be whole again or whole for the first time in your life, right?
00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:18.639
And you're before I feel like we're walking around fragmented, and and meth may have blown that up, but recovery is bringing it all back here together, you know.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:26.880
That's so in a container therapy, maybe art, support groups.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:28.559
Absolutely, right?
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:29.199
Yeah.
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:31.920
I mean, it's it's like a anything like that.
00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:38.559
I mean, because again, this is what I was saying at the beginning about kind of shadow when shadow work sounding a little bit kind of esoteric or whatever.
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:39.920
We do it all the time.
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:41.440
You know, we do it all the time.
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:43.760
Recovery groups.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:52.320
I mean, you know, I mean, you you probably know in in in in 12 step groups, if you think about some of the steps, then there's the um making amends, right?
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:54.559
That's confronting shadow stuff.
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:58.480
You know, it's confronting your past and the things that you've done, perhaps to hurt other people.
00:43:58.719 --> 00:43:59.599
There's the uh the moral.
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.639
Which is which is really hard work for a lot of people.
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:17.119
But it's really looking, but again, it's it's a way of really, really um confronting, coming to terms with and meaning making of of a lot of these shadow elements, you know.
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:25.599
So, you know, and and and again, I mean, this it it it it it goes back hundreds of years, hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of years, rites of passage.
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:39.760
There's then Buddhist tradition, they talk about the ox herding pictures, which is a very long, long drawn-out kind of metaphor, but basically, series of pictures, 10 pictures, very beautiful if anyone's interested.
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.039
But it's about the 12th century, I think, in Japan.
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:50.800
But um, you know, they talk about okay, you go off into the forest, different pictures, you can't find the ox.
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:56.239
The ox in this metaphor being the wild, untamed kind of mind, all that energy that that holds.
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:58.320
Um, then you find the ox.
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:07.119
Well, you see the tracks, and then you find the ox, and then you build the relationship with the ox, and then you put a rope on it, and then you tame it, and then you climb on its back, and then you come back.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:12.320
Importantly, actually, to what we were saying, is you then come back on the back of the ox.
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:15.440
There's a wonderful picture of somebody playing a flute on the back of an ox.
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:25.920
So, but you know, but importantly, you come back, okay, and then the last kind of picture: the ox has disappeared and the man is entering the marketplace.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:31.840
Okay, so in this metaphor, like the ox has been integrated, and so you've forgotten about it.
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:44.800
And so, right there, you've got a really classic in pictorial form, a confrontation with shadow, yeah, which is you know, because there's enormous, enormous power and energy in in an ox, right?
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:53.360
When we do that through chemsex, essentially what we do is that we find an ox, any ox, we leap on its back, shout, yeehaw, try and do a rodeo.
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:59.119
And then wonder why we've been trampled into the dust and we're being dragged through the mud, right?
00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:08.719
So that's the difference between doing it in in a ritualized, contained way and doing it in a way which is very, very uncontained, which is what can happen.
00:46:08.880 --> 00:46:12.000
I'm stressing can happen through chemsex.
00:46:12.320 --> 00:46:12.960
Yeah.
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:14.159
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:26.239
Yeah, you know, you you talked about the meth using, we're talking about the meth-using part and what the meth-using part it did serve you for a reason.
00:46:26.559 --> 00:46:27.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:29.280
It was giving you something.
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:33.360
Like you said, how would you express yourself sexually without shame?
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:35.039
Well, you got a taste of that.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:41.920
You know, I call it like when you do chem sex, it's like uh Adam and Eve taking a bite of the forbidden fruit.
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:44.079
All of a sudden they see good and evil, right?
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:53.519
It's like we instantly cross over into, and so many men say this This is what I've been looking for my entire life.
00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:55.360
I said it.
00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:56.400
Right.
00:46:56.639 --> 00:47:01.039
It was like this this weight of the world is lifted.
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:02.239
Right.
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:09.280
And all this shame and all this rejection and all the stuff that we were living with is instantly gone.
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:12.480
We feel like we think.
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:35.920
Um, and so there are states of consciousness that I think we get in chemsex that gives us to me an incentive of wow, if I can feel that way, chemically induced, imagine what it would be like if I actually worked for it and found it naturally and it lasted, it's sustainable.
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:38.800
You know, I don't get slammed back in reality.
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:42.719
Like you said, there's no aftercare in chemsex.
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.920
You're just kicked, your ass is kicked out the door, pretty much.
00:47:46.000 --> 00:47:56.719
You're not held or transitioned out of, you just slam back into, then you're in despair and you're spiraling, and no, I missed work, and you know, my mom's trying to get a hold of me.
00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:01.440
And you know, all the stuff like all of a sudden, there's there is no, there is no aftercare with it.
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:03.039
Um, just like you said.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:14.800
Um, but one thing I want to point out, and if you're listening, I want you to really, really, really listen to this is that Jamie says, inviting it in, inviting your shadow in.
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:23.440
And I'll give you an example of for me is rejection, exclusion is always a schema of mine.
00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:27.920
And I say schema because I read this, I don't know if you read this book, Emotional Alchemy.
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:29.199
I haven't read that one.
00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:31.119
I I know the schema thing, yeah.
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:32.239
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:32.320 --> 00:48:34.239
So anyway, I learned the word is schema.
00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:41.119
But anyway, basically, you know, that I I have this filter, this belief that I'm always excluded.
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:42.960
Right.
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:48.000
And there's this part of me that thinks that for whatever reason.
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:50.400
And I can track it back and all this kind of stuff.
00:48:51.039 --> 00:49:07.679
The most I have searched and searched and read and tried to find these methods and this, you know, like even shamanic practices of like soul fragmentation, you know, like soul retrieval, like something help me, you know, get rid of it.
00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:13.920
But the the best and most effective thing I did was just invite this feeling of rejection in.
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:15.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:18.800
Sit with it and just be with it.
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:19.280
Yeah.
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:20.320
That's it.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:20.800
Yeah.
00:49:21.119 --> 00:49:22.639
And just say, you know what?
00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:26.800
I feel I I s I feel rejection right now in my body.
00:49:28.000 --> 00:49:29.119
It's not the first time.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:30.000
And guess what?
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:31.920
It's not going to be the last time.
00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:35.679
I'll probably feel like this on and off for the rest of my life.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:38.960
But every time I invite it in, it gets softer.
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.960
And it's around it's not around as long either.
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:45.920
Like I I've tamed the ox.
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:46.719
Well yeah.
00:49:46.960 --> 00:49:47.119
Right?
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:52.480
Where I'm taming the this ox that was like trampling me before.
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:58.880
Because this rejection, this exclusion would take me down out of out of everything.
00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:17.920
Out of, I mean, as a 40, late 40s year old man, you know, I would just I my whole day would be re-derailed, but inviting it in, so simple, but so powerful, but the heart but so hard to.
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.440
Well, it's it's it's counterintuitive, isn't it?
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:26.719
I mean, and and and I just want to acknowledge what what a wonderful example that was, actually.
00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:31.440
I mean, because you know, you're your rejection comes up so much.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:38.719
It really, really does, you know, in in the work that I do, particularly around chemsex, it's a word that crops up time and time and time again.
00:50:38.960 --> 00:50:41.199
And I really love what you were saying there, actually.
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:49.920
And if we're gonna stay with our ox metaphor here, you know, because what you didn't do there um is kill the ox or try and kill the ox.
00:50:50.320 --> 00:50:54.320
You know, what you have been doing for a long time is fighting with the ox.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:54.800
Yeah.
00:50:55.360 --> 00:51:00.079
Which if anyone ever tries to fight an ox, I don't I don't recommend it.
00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:02.079
It's it's not a good idea, right?
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:07.840
So, and as you said, I mean you're only gonna get only ever going to come off second best in in that particular fight.
00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:17.599
So, but but I think I think in all seriousness, I mean, and and thank you for sharing your own kind of personal experience there, you know, because I think what you're talking about is is fighting the ox.
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:23.599
You know, we we we throw all of these techniques and these tools and these resources, and as therapists, we do it as well, you know.
00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:35.679
So, and it's like let's let's get rid of this, let's do something with it, let's change it, let's uh all of this kind of stuff, which is which is the fighting with it, you know, the either kind of the annihilation or the fighting with.
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:40.719
Okay, so and and and what you're talking about there is a complete pivot, you know.
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:44.159
If we're talking shadow work here, that's precisely what we're talking about.
00:51:44.480 --> 00:51:51.599
You know, if we might do that through therapy or through one of the other means that we were just talking about, but the end result is the same.
00:51:51.760 --> 00:52:00.320
We you know, when you actually stop fighting and you just invite it to say, okay, you know, look, come in, sit down.
00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:02.000
But you know, surrender.
00:52:02.079 --> 00:52:02.800
I surrender.
00:52:02.960 --> 00:52:03.360
That's it.
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:10.239
Look, it looks like we're stuck with each other for the rest of our we might as well be friends, right?
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:16.400
So, but like in in all seriousness, I mean, you know, you were talking about internal family systems earlier, we keep referencing it.
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:22.239
Uh I'm I'm really, really interested in that particular technique at the moment, still finding out more about it.
00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:28.400
But I but I just I love the premise there, which is precisely what you were just saying, which is you you invite it in rejection.
00:52:28.639 --> 00:52:29.679
Okay, come in.
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:31.360
What is it you want me to know?
00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:33.440
You know, how old do you think I am?
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:38.880
Actually, because these parts usually start, you know, when we're much younger and come into being, as it were.
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:44.239
You know, so you you know, updating the part to say, you know, I don't want to get rid of you, I don't want to fight you.
00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:46.719
You're very welcome, please don't overwhelm me.
00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:51.840
You know, the important mantra there, you're very welcome, please don't overwhelm me, but I do want to get to know you.
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:58.400
You know, what happens from that in in most cases, I would say, is that a story will come up around that.
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:03.679
You know, that rejection part feels that it's protecting you and it feels that it has to protect you, you know.
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:14.079
So, you know, I actually so by say so so saying to something that's trying to protect you, I don't want you and I'm gonna fight you, is completely doesn't make any sense, right?
00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:14.400
Right.
00:53:14.559 --> 00:53:20.000
So we might not like it, but as you said, when you actually develop that relationship with it, it starts to transform.
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:23.599
And it's it's quite a beautiful moment, actually, when that happens.
00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:28.559
You know, you as you said, you just you notice it starts to soften just a little bit.
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:30.159
There's a little bit of flexibility.
00:53:30.400 --> 00:53:34.320
We might invite it to take another role, uh, whatever it is.
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:43.760
But it's certainly it's certainly kind of counterintuitive, I think, for a lot of people to lean into those parts of ourselves that we don't like.
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:50.400
We are hardwired to move away from pain, but it's physical, it's emotional pain.
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:53.760
You put your hand in the flame, you pull it out, don't you?
00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:55.360
I mean, this is what we do.
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:56.719
We do it emotionally as well.
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:59.440
So there's nothing, even that, there's there's nothing wrong with that.
00:53:59.519 --> 00:54:01.280
We're just doing what comes naturally.
00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:09.599
So in therapy or in a confrontation with shadow, you know, like we're just talking, indigenous cultures, if you're doing it that way, whatever it is.
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:16.320
So if you're a Zen practitioner sat there for 12 hours on a cushion in the day, you know, um, actually, what we're doing is that we're moving towards it.
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:28.639
You know, when you're inviting injection in, you're leaning into it and you're moving towards it, which will feel counterintuitive, but nonetheless, this is exactly what we need to be doing, you know.
00:54:28.800 --> 00:54:39.840
Because what happens, you know, I I I I go back to what I was saying earlier as well, which is these parts are an amazing resource, they carry so much for us, whether it's you know the gifts of chem sex you were talking about.
00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:41.599
Yep, I was alright with that.
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:48.559
But also, you know, if we don't, if we split those parts up, if we exile them, as you quite rightly said, they are parts of us.
00:54:48.719 --> 00:54:54.320
We lose something, we lose some essence of work with vitality or whatever.
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:58.320
Um, I heard a wonderful phrase, I I can't remember who used it actually.
00:54:58.400 --> 00:54:59.519
It's quite a long time ago.
00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:03.440
Someone talked about the graying out of parts of our personality.
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:31.440
Another way of describing this process, we we grey it out, and I just thought that's a really great descriptive way of explaining what goes on, you know, whether we're talking about exiling or splitting off or repressing or whatever, the graying out process, because then we gray out a part of ourselves, and if we gray out a part of ourselves, then we're losing some of that kind of vitality and vibrancy that we might need to live, you know, a satisfying whole life, right?
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:32.239
Mm-hmm.
00:55:32.719 --> 00:55:33.599
Yes, right.
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:34.320
Yes.
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:40.159
And uh also in this is this is self-love.
00:55:40.800 --> 00:55:41.199
Right.
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:45.760
So like when you push things away, you're rejecting them.
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:48.239
But what do you do with something you love?
00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:51.199
You pull it close, you invite it in.
00:55:52.000 --> 00:56:07.679
And you know, I see this, oh self-love, I'm taking a bubble bath or I'm getting my nails done, or you know, I was like, that's so not self-like let's do some self-cap-care, but self-love.
00:56:07.760 --> 00:56:10.159
Yeah, like let's get deep into this.
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:21.280
You know, what are you what do you not like about yourself and pull it in and what and and just leaning into that, those uncomfortable emotions.
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:36.000
Like on a Friday night, when you're all by yourself and you're having FOMO and you f and you're lonely and you're you know, you're you're shaking because you you you you you just the first thing you want to do is react.
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:38.559
What can I do to get rid of this as fast as I can?
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:42.639
And a lot of times it's get on the grinder and go have chem sex.
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:43.679
Right.
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.079
Or if you're if it's not, it's something else.
00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:54.000
If if you're in recovery, you might be deflecting by saying, Well, I gotta get out to friends, I gotta do this, I gotta watch, I gotta do this, I gotta get out, put myself out there.
00:56:54.159 --> 00:57:00.880
Like you're running from this part that is asking to be held.
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:02.639
Exactly.
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:08.800
I mean you're you you you you quite rightly said earlier, actually, you're you know, you're running away from yourself.
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:16.559
If anyone's ever tried to run away from their shadow physically, by the way, you'll see how impossible that is, right.
00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:30.880
But yeah, but yeah, I mean you are absolutely right in terms of what you're saying about self-love, and that is also learning to love those parts of you which might not be quite so attractive for whatever reason.
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:35.119
Um, and look, you know, some of those parts might always be problematic.
00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:43.280
We don't we don't necessarily, I mean, even if we do shadow work, we don't suddenly kind of get all these parts, and all of a sudden it's one great big loving.
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:51.920
Some of these, some of these parts might always be difficult, they might always be practical, but they might be holding something for you as well.
00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:54.800
You know, I keep coming back to energy.
00:57:55.119 --> 00:57:57.119
But what are they holding for you?
00:57:57.199 --> 00:58:08.719
You know, some of them don't need your approval, actually, to be honest with you, you know, but nonetheless, they are there anyway, you know, and I think we all have to face just some of the difficult things in ourselves.
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:10.480
We're not angels all of the time.
00:58:10.639 --> 00:58:27.199
You know, we're not, unless you know you're a saint or something like that, you know, most of us do have have these elements, and and and as you quite rightly said, learning to love those elements of yourself as well is really the best route towards kind of transformation, you know.
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:30.880
So again, we're not trying to kill the ox, you know, we're not trying to break the ox.
00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:37.280
Actually, we have a rope, we're just trying to tame it a little bit so it's not so out of control, you know.
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:43.199
And of course, in the chem sex arena, sometimes well, quite often, things do get very, very out of control.
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:54.880
And I think yeah, this is a message that I really want to get across to people, and you know, particularly my clients, which is you know, don't you don't need to be destroyed by this thing, and you don't need to be afraid of it because that's what we were saying earlier.
00:58:55.039 --> 00:59:00.880
The respect, the self-love that you were talking about, you know, and love, as we always say, love is a verb, right?
00:59:00.960 --> 00:59:07.039
It's it's a doing verb, you know, it's what you do to form a relationship with these parts as well.
00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:10.480
Also, we've been talking about kind of ritual and kind of working.
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:12.719
It takes discipline.
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:20.159
It takes a level of discipline, and something my clients were always quite surprised to hear actually about discipline.
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:24.880
Some of them have got quite a uh difficult relationship with discipline for various different reasons.
00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:32.079
But discipline, discipline, healthy discipline is is is a form of of love as well, you know, and that's what people forget sometimes.
00:59:32.239 --> 00:59:36.159
We tend to think of discipline as you know the big stick, and oh, I've got to do this.
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:42.159
And yeah, it can feel difficult sometimes, but it's just as much an act of self-love as anything else.
00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:42.639
Yeah.
00:59:44.639 --> 00:59:47.280
It sounds like it sounds like boundaries too.
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:48.559
Boundaries.
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:49.760
Absolutely right.
00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:50.239
Yeah.
00:59:50.480 --> 00:59:54.000
Boundaries can container, absolutely.
00:59:54.159 --> 00:59:56.800
You know, that's essentially what it what it is, right?
00:59:56.960 --> 00:59:57.519
You know, yeah.
00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:06.320
This is why, I mean, in in in in therapy, we have confidentiality, that's why it's at the same time every week, you know, we'll try to be, you know, it's the same amount of time every week.
01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:21.280
We have a bit of a structure, we'll kind of open it up, but we make sure that there is time towards the end of the session to um kind of debrief a little bit, do any work that we need to do about kind of coming back, and that goes back to that coming back thing as well.
01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:23.679
Boundaries, very much so.
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:26.000
Boundaries, discipline, containment.
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:34.000
Because again, I mean, what we're talking about is the channeling of it of energy, channeling of parts sometimes, you know, and that's that's that's so important.
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:37.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:42.719
I think it's I I think it's so healthy to say right now I'm channeling this part of me.
01:00:43.519 --> 01:00:53.199
I I'm aware that that part of me is is now talking, is now responding, you know, and knowing that I'm gonna back away from the situation.
01:00:53.440 --> 01:00:53.760
Right.
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:54.159
Okay.
01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:55.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:00:55.840 --> 01:01:00.639
Yeah, because that part of me is not going to respond to this in the way that's true to me.
01:01:00.960 --> 01:01:09.360
Like I know, I can I'm always, not always, I I can be well aware of when certain elements have stepped up and taken over.
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:12.239
And and I I I'm out of character.
01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:16.800
Not not out of character, out of alignment with what I truly want, I guess.
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:19.840
You know, I'm not we're not integrated at the moment, right?
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:21.920
He's in he stepped up here.
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:31.679
Um yeah, so just to review negotiation, relationship, ritual, container, aftercare.
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:36.480
And a good example of that is looking at the BDSM and kink community.
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:37.519
They do it really well.
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:38.880
They do it really well, yeah.
01:01:38.960 --> 01:01:39.119
Yeah.
01:01:39.280 --> 01:01:41.119
If it's done properly, they do it really, really well, yeah.
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:42.079
If it's done properly.
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:42.320
Yeah.
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:56.719
Which is something else is that if you're listening and you're you're in this uh state of beginning to sexually reintegrate, often you guys will think that you cannot be involved in the BDSM kink community.
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:00.559
And and sometimes you can get triggered in the beginning.
01:02:01.360 --> 01:02:04.159
You you can do all of that sober.
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:06.480
In fact, you know, without that.
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:21.679
In fact, we I suggest it based and this confirms is that consent, trust, negotiation, safety, I mean, all uh boundaries, all of those good stuff.
01:02:21.760 --> 01:02:24.960
This that is what BDSM and Kink is all about.
01:02:26.000 --> 01:02:35.199
So you can have sex without myth and be it, you're actually you're more apt to be under all of that and experience all of that without myth.
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:42.719
So you can have sober sex and it doesn't have to be missionary vanilla, five-minute fucking, okay?
01:02:43.119 --> 01:02:45.360
Like it doesn't have to be that.
01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:48.159
Um and I know that from experience.
01:02:48.480 --> 01:03:03.360
So um, okay, I think we're we're taking up a lot of your time, but I just want to say one um not one last thing, but I also want to go back to something you said about making amends in terms of shadow work.
01:03:03.519 --> 01:03:10.559
And one thing for you listeners, and and I'm gonna say this and I want you to tell me how what you think of it, Jamie, or how it resonates with you.
01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:32.159
One thing I do in my program is I have next level amends, which is you look at a um disagreement you have or someone you complain about, and I I bring in Byron Cady's work, if you're if you're familiar with with her, in terms of you say, okay, he is arrogant, right?
01:03:32.320 --> 01:03:34.559
This person I had a fight with is arrogant.
01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:42.559
I know every time when somebody says he is arrogant, their shadow is is them being is their arrogant.
01:03:43.280 --> 01:03:53.360
So I just want to say, like, one quick way to identify shadow is you you pay attention to what you say other people are.
01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:58.000
And and my guess is that's a reflection of your shadow right there.
01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:04.800
They are they're triggering you, and it's a gift for you to know what to to what to pay attention to.
01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:07.440
And so Byron Cady will give you the turnaround.
01:04:07.519 --> 01:04:13.119
Like if you say uh he is, let's let's say his name is Marcus, Marcus is arrogant.
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:16.960
Well, then you turn that around to say Marcus is not arrogant.
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:18.400
Is that true?
01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:20.559
But then you say, I am arrogant.
01:04:21.199 --> 01:04:24.239
And all of a sudden you're looking in all the ways you're arrogant.
01:04:24.960 --> 01:04:32.239
And you're like, oh, Marcus is showing, Marcus is only triggering this part of me because it's something that I need to look at in me.
01:04:32.559 --> 01:04:34.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:39.360
It's doubtless I mean a w wonderful example because it's classic shadow work.
01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:42.079
I mean, you're talking about projective identification, right?
01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:42.719
Yeah.
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:49.920
We're we're projecting those parts that we don't want to own, which is classic 100% textbook shadow work.
01:04:50.079 --> 01:05:03.199
You know, which is, as you said, uh, to use your example, arrogance, you know, we project that onto onto somebody else, you know, with with the aim of then attacking, because it's something that we don't like in in ourselves.
01:05:03.280 --> 01:05:06.880
We we might not be completely arrogant, but we may contain arrogance.
01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:08.960
I work with it in a slightly different way.
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:13.039
I trained in in gestalt therapy, so we use the two-chair technique.
01:05:14.719 --> 01:05:19.760
So, what what I will then do sometimes is is ask somebody to dialogue with that.
01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:29.199
So, okay, so um speak from from yourself, first of all, and then I want you to speak, uh go to the other chair, and then speak from the perspective of the other person.
01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:38.880
So be the arrogant person or the person that you think is arrogant, and then they have to speak from that perspective, and you can almost hear pennies dropping all over the place, you know.
01:05:38.960 --> 01:05:41.440
It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:43.599
But again, a wonderful way dialoguing.
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:55.360
I mean, it's a similar thing to you know, we're saying about parts, dialoguing with those those those parts that you split off that you're projecting onto other people, you know, is is is classic shadow work as well.
01:05:55.519 --> 01:05:56.880
So yeah, I really like that.
01:05:57.039 --> 01:05:57.760
Great example.
01:05:57.920 --> 01:05:58.320
Yeah.
01:05:58.800 --> 01:05:59.199
Thank you.
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:09.119
I i I'm using myself because it was the first time I learned I was um working at a restaurant and I was bitching about a manager.
01:06:09.280 --> 01:06:11.119
You know, he's so arrogant, right?
01:06:11.280 --> 01:06:18.960
And then somebody introduced me to or I watched or something by Red Katie and and I did this turnaround and I said, I am arrogant.
01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:20.639
And I was like, This is bullshit.
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:23.760
You know, and then I was like, Oh my god, I am arrogant.
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:30.000
I started thinking about all the ways that I was being an arrogant asshole at this restaurant.
01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:33.199
And I was like, that's why he's bothering me.
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:41.519
This is and so when I started working on my own, something happened between us and we became friends.
01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:46.880
Like I just saw him under this whole different light, and I was like, wow, this is shadow work.
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:52.719
Like I put light on something about myself that I didn't know was controlling me.
01:06:53.679 --> 01:06:57.519
You know, and so yeah, it was that was a big light bulb moment for me.
01:06:58.159 --> 01:06:58.719
Yeah.
01:06:59.199 --> 01:07:04.639
Um Is there anything that we uh have left out today?
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:06.559
Anything that I have forgotten?
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:13.519
I I would have loved to take a deeper dive into certain things, but is there anything you wish we would have talked about or mentioned?
01:07:14.079 --> 01:07:17.360
I I I think we've covered most things.
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:25.519
Uh and and I mean what I've really appreciated about today, uh Dallas, is it in my mind is the way my mind works, like, okay, we'll do this and then we'll do that, and then we'll do that, and then we'll do that.
01:07:25.760 --> 01:07:29.039
But you know, it's one of my parts getting involved there, you know.
01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:36.079
So um, but I I really appreciate just the kind of more conversational style that that that that we've used today.
01:07:36.159 --> 01:07:40.480
So I will probably go away from this and think, oh, I should have said that, oh, we should have covered.
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:51.599
But I think that the the main messages I think um are there, which is you know, just to reiterate exactly what we've both said, which is uh don't be afraid of the shadow, you know.
01:07:51.760 --> 01:08:00.639
And if you have been engaged in chemsex um and it's kind of consumed you, destroyed you, or whatever, it's really not the end of the world.
01:08:00.719 --> 01:08:02.480
What you've actually got is a starting point.
01:08:02.559 --> 01:08:10.880
Yes, it takes work, yeah, but you've actually got a starting point there to kind of really, really face some of those elements within yourself, you know.
01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:13.840
And some people in life never ever do that work at all, you know.
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:19.680
So the fact that that you have done that, don't don't hate yourself, you're not broken, you know, there isn't something wrong with you.
01:08:19.840 --> 01:08:23.600
It's just you know, your your shadow's just been out there running a mock, basically.
01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:31.039
Okay, so it's time to, if you feel ready to, you know, or when you're ready to, there's there's some work that can be done around that.
01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:42.319
But there can be a lot of really, really useful information in there to to really, really not forget that we're not in the business of pathologizing people or pathologizing identities, and that's not what what this is about.
01:08:43.199 --> 01:08:43.840
That's right.
01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:52.000
I I want you all to really hear that because hearing it from somebody else might really make it stick, right?
01:08:52.560 --> 01:09:06.000
But oftentimes, I know it's counterintuitive, but we are privileged to have had a chem sex experience, to have a starting point, to be enlightened about ourselves.
01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:12.479
Like like you said, some people never some people are walking through life totally lost and asleep.
01:09:13.680 --> 01:09:19.920
Go to work, watch Netflix, go to sleep, go to work, not you know, and never become aware of themselves.
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:22.800
We have the distinct opportunity.
01:09:22.960 --> 01:09:31.119
Our life has been turned upside down, and we've we've we've the basement has been been opened where most people are are kept locked.
01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:33.439
This is a special opportunity.
01:09:34.079 --> 01:09:44.239
So get out of this despair and and agony about yourself and self-loathing and hating everything about it, and say, This is I'm a chosen per I am a chosen one.
01:09:44.479 --> 01:09:47.039
I have been chosen to be enlightened.
01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:51.840
Take shift the perspective of this experience and make a new meaning out of it.
01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:58.640
If you take anything away from this podcast, from this episode, that is the number one message I want people to hear.
01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:00.880
That's so box.
01:10:06.640 --> 01:10:10.159
Oh Jamie, I just love you.
01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:16.079
I just would sit down and talk with you for hours and hours and hours.
01:10:16.239 --> 01:10:17.760
And I am so glad you're here.
01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:20.239
I would love the opportunity to do that, Dallas.
01:10:20.399 --> 01:10:20.960
I really would.
01:10:21.039 --> 01:10:24.960
And likewise, I'm kind of sitting here going, no, hang on a minute, Ren it.
01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:31.600
It's like maybe it's a conversation for another time because there are just so many directions that that that we can go.
01:10:31.680 --> 01:10:39.199
And I just really I really kind of want to keep it on point today because we said people work, but like, oh, we can talk about this, and oh, we can talk about that.
01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:40.880
You know, no, thank you so much.
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:42.079
I I really really appreciate it.
01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:45.039
Well, I'd love to have you back.
01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:49.680
And I want to ask too, did I interrupt you today?
01:10:49.840 --> 01:10:56.239
Because for those listening before the podcast, before we started, um Jamie said sometimes Americans like to interrupt.
01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:03.520
That sounds I I did.
01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:07.199
I just want to make sure.
01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:13.439
I just want to say to all your American listeners there, that was very much taken out of context.
01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:19.039
Dallas, I will get you back for that one, I promise you.
01:11:19.199 --> 01:11:22.800
So uh now I feel like I want to quickly justify myself.
01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:24.720
A part of mine is kicking in already.
01:11:25.279 --> 01:11:26.640
I really want to justify it.
01:11:28.319 --> 01:11:30.079
So uh, yes.
01:11:30.239 --> 01:11:34.720
Well, I made sure I did not, although I try not to on here, you know, I really do.
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:40.079
And like I said, uh but I I was hanging on every word you said anyway, so I didn't want to interrupt.
01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:44.399
Um I I I I I think it look, it's just indicative of the conversation.
01:11:44.479 --> 01:11:46.159
It's a very stimulating conversation.
01:11:46.319 --> 01:11:51.279
Yeah, there's so much I really enjoyed, you know, what what what what you shared about yourself and your work as well.
01:11:51.439 --> 01:11:57.039
So, and you know, I mean what I said, I mean it could have gone in a thousand different directions, but that's absolutely fine.
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:00.560
I think we covered the basics and most of it.
01:12:00.640 --> 01:12:06.000
And if not, we'll have to do shadows through the crystal lens sequel, right?
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:07.760
Yeah, yeah.
01:12:07.920 --> 01:12:10.399
Well, we want to know when your book's coming out.
01:12:12.000 --> 01:12:13.439
Well, that's a good question.
01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:16.560
Actually, maybe I should maybe I should make a start on that, right?
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:17.920
Yeah, I think you should.
01:12:18.079 --> 01:12:19.359
I think you should.
01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:20.319
Um, okay.
01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:22.000
Thank you, Jamie, for being here.
01:12:22.159 --> 01:12:22.880
Appreciate you.
01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:25.279
Appreciate you so much, and for you listening.
01:12:25.520 --> 01:12:29.279
This may be one you're gonna have to rewind and listen to again.
01:12:29.439 --> 01:12:37.199
And um, you can do you can do 2x speed when I'm talking if you want, but just listen to to Jamie when he's talking because it's very important stuff.
01:12:37.279 --> 01:12:40.399
So all right, thank you very much, and we'll see you guys next week.
01:12:40.720 --> 01:12:41.520
Thank you.