Missions, Metrics, and the Stories We Tell Ourselves

WEBVTT
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.599
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:20.719
My name is Jim Bennett, and there is only one other person with me here today, and he is the mighty Ian Wilkes.
00:00:20.879 --> 00:00:22.000
Ian, how are you, sir?
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:23.839
I am doing really well, Jim.
00:00:23.920 --> 00:00:24.800
How are you, sir?
00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:26.079
Well, I'm all right.
00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.359
It's been a while since it's been just the two of us.
00:00:29.519 --> 00:00:36.240
We've done some live streams with just the two of us lately, but we always end up answering all of the comments.
00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:42.079
And uh so this is the first time in a little while where it's just you and me.
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:44.399
I hope we don't bore everybody.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.039
I've I've missed that.
00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.280
You know, we've had loads of amazing guests.
00:00:49.359 --> 00:00:51.359
You know, we have a live program now.
00:00:51.520 --> 00:01:04.799
Uh, and I've um, you know, I was telling my family that I've missed this like one-to-one thing with Jim Bennett because we kind of cover some amazing ground and and uh it it's it's a different experience, it's a very different positive experience for me.
00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:11.599
So I it's it's a real uh honor to be with you uh uh to to have this conversation with you today.
00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.159
Uh certainly on the topics that we'll be discussing.
00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:14.799
Sure.
00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:16.239
Likewise, sir.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:26.000
So uh you had seen an article uh written by Elder Rasband that uh attracted your attention that you wanted to talk about.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:27.680
Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:28.799
Absolutely.
00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:34.400
So Elder Rasband uh uh attended the MTC recently.
00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:45.760
So this is an article that I came across on Deseret News, and the date is January 29th, which is today uh 3.23 p.m.
00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:48.480
So it's kind of hot off the press.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:56.799
And Elder Rasband makes some very interesting claims, and those claims are worth reviewing and having a conversation on.
00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:02.000
Um, he said here in the headline, uh, he said it's a remarkable time to serve.
00:02:02.159 --> 00:02:07.120
This is uh speaking to around about 900 new missionaries in the MTC.
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:17.919
He said we are only scratching the surface of what the Lord has in store for us as he prepares the world for his second coming, uh, says uh Apostle to Training Missionaries.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:35.840
Do you remember on your mission and before your mission, uh, same the same messages that we were uh out there, you know, this is what 35 years ago, and that we were uh our work uh would be to usher in the second coming, and we were there to warn people, etc.
00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:38.639
And that we were going to see the church spread across the earth.
00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:43.439
It's the same message, this message has not changed over the last 35 or 40 years or so.
00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:52.560
So, yeah, so during the meeting, um uh he said uh that the church will fill North and South America, it will fill the world.
00:02:52.800 --> 00:03:00.080
And the article goes on to say that nearly now, nearly two centuries later, members of the church are seeing this happen.
00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:08.879
The number of missionaries serving, uh number of missions serving, people choosing baptizing temples being all increasing.
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:23.439
And and just before we get into the article here, we've had you and I have had these conversations, we've had uh input feedback from people who've attended our Inside Out Like programme that happens every Tuesday night at 7 pm Mountain Time.
00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:39.360
Uh, we've had our guests on, and there's been uh times where we have discussed, including with Greg Prince, uh, and in particular, Greg Prince's Roadmap for Improving Mormonism speaks about church growth and some of the barriers to church growth.
00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:52.240
And there's the the message that I've uh picked up and learned from that, Jen, you know, if we kind of string all those um conversations together, is that the church in many ways is in decline.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.319
People's interest in religion generally seems to be diminishing.
00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:59.280
Uh if the data's uh some of the data's pleasure.
00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:04.400
Uh young people are leaving the church uh on record numbers.
00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:06.000
Uh again, that's what I've heard.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:07.680
You can chime in on that.
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:15.919
Uh, we've heard that people under in a certain demographic, perhaps under 40 or 45, have issues with the church.
00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:19.600
Uh the retention is difficult in in many parts of the world.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.319
Scott, the church in Scotland seems to be uh diminishing faster than ever.
00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:41.279
Europe, and I I only uh know this uh based on my family relationships and friend relationships in the UK and in Europe, who tell me that you know over the last few years there's less and less people physically turning the church.
00:04:41.439 --> 00:04:46.160
That is seems to be the case certainly in the UK and certainly uh across Europe.
00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:53.600
Um Elder Rasman goes on to say, do we not all feel wonder and awe in our hearts?
00:04:54.160 --> 00:05:08.399
Uh he's uh he was with his wife uh at the uh event and basically he talks about um uh how the church is uh is growing and and uh and prospering.
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:18.639
And so uh have you just before we get into some of the details there, what's your take, Jim, on uh growth of the church?
00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:24.319
Uh you know, you've you you uh you you're tracking some of this, you know, people speak to you.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.439
Uh you've spoken about this uh passionately.
00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:32.399
Are you uh uh seeing growth in where you are in the church?
00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:36.800
Do you uh see growth beyond the region area that you're living in?
00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.920
What's your take on if the church is growing or not?
00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.240
Well, I don't have any hard numbers.
00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:45.920
I don't know how a lot of people who do, or if any people do really.
00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:58.240
Um but um uh from what I am seeing, uh at least in North America, well, so okay, so this is all anecdotal.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:02.879
This is, I mean, from my personal experience, uh, I see shrinkage.
00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.800
I see a fewer and fewer young people coming to church.
00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:17.279
Uh I my my daughter reported to me from the USC Institute uh just how small the University of Southern California Institute has become.
00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.079
And there's a new institute director there.
00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:30.480
And she said that the institute director is a woman, and said that she was the only person who had applied for that job.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:45.360
And when I was at the University of Southern California, the institute was jammed with people, and there were people lining up essentially to get that job, to work at the Institute.
00:06:45.439 --> 00:06:50.160
You know, Paul Dunn used to work at the USC Institute, uh interestingly enough.
00:06:50.480 --> 00:07:04.720
But it's it's just so I look at the area I grew up in, which is Southern California, and there is no question that the church has shrunk precipitously.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:14.079
In Southern California, there are uh there used to be several stakes, multiple stakes within the Los Angeles city limits.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.160
Now there is precisely one.
00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:22.720
And, you know, so that doesn't necessarily mean that the church as a whole is shrinking.
00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:38.000
And certainly the numbers that we see out of Africa, that we see out of the developing world, demonstrate that throughout the world, and particularly in Africa, the church is growing at a rather sizable clip.
00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:55.439
And so the question then becomes for church leaders, uh, are do we just sort of focus all of our energy on where the church is growing and just ignore the fact that we're seeing this kind of attrition in the United States?
00:07:55.759 --> 00:07:59.040
Now, we had your friend on, his name escapes me.
00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:00.720
He was a mission president in Belgium.
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.839
President Darrell Watson, and I was thinking exactly the same thing when you were speaking.
00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:06.079
Go ahead.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:13.040
Yeah, and and I brought that up with him because all the evidence seems to suggest that Europe is shrinking.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:19.199
And he said that's nonsense, uh, but the people they're baptizing aren't Europeans.
00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:35.919
The people they're baptizing are immigrants and uh people from outside of uh, you know, that have that have come into these countries but are not traditionally Belgian or French or Italian in all of these different countries.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:46.240
I mean, we we can see shrinkage in Scotland because we were we both served in the Scotland-Edinburgh mission, and it's now the Scotland-Ireland mission.
00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:48.639
They've combined both missions.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:57.519
You don't do that if you've got enough activity for missionaries in Scotland alone.
00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:21.120
And so so from my experience, I I don't know that Elder Rasband is being dishonest, uh, but I think the implication that the church is growing everywhere equally, and I don't know if he says that or not, but uh if that's the implication, then I think that is somewhat disingenuous and not true.
00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:31.200
We'll get into some of his his details because he's got five, six specific items, points that he is what he claims he's debunked.
00:09:31.279 --> 00:10:02.240
And by the way, before I get into these, because each one are fascinating actually, um I'm on the Edinburgh uh stake Facebook page, as I am uh, I think there's there's a my my ward uh in England, um, and I'm also part of another ward, and they post their activities, their social activities, and the whole makeup of those activities, as you can see, people attending them, does support what President Darrell Watson and what you've just said.
00:10:02.639 --> 00:10:17.360
That's uh the the demographics have changed significantly if I'm going on those um you know those uh images on the Facebook pages there from those events, and the whole makeup looks completely different to when you and I were serving in in Scotland.
00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:21.200
So that seems to be consistent with what President Darrell has said.
00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:43.440
You've got uh a huge influx of immigrants that uh arrived and and have travelled over many, many years, uh that continue to move into uh uh Europe and the UK, certainly, and we're now seeing those individuals very clearly, uh very visibly make up uh these congregations in the UK, certainly, and uh certainly in Scotland.
00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:54.159
So just going back to the article here, and I'm really keen to get your um uh thoughts and uh and uh blunt opinions on this in on these specific items.
00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:02.000
Uh Elder Asmond said, we should all thank Heavenly Father that we get to have a front row seat for the fulfillment of ancient and modern-day prophecy.
00:11:02.159 --> 00:11:10.320
Uh, he's just been called as the chair of the missionary executive council, so he's in a very senior uh position there.
00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:21.919
Uh he says, realizing that God is currently doing a marvellous work and wonder throughout the world, and that you are all part, about to begin to be part of that work uh that builds your faith and trust in him.
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:23.279
Again, he's speaking of the dishes.
00:11:23.519 --> 00:11:29.200
He then goes on to debunk uh or tries to debunk some false narratives.
00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:40.879
And he his opening comment before he gets into the details is this to illustrate the Lord's hastening of his work, and by the way, that's what President Oak's training was when we were called and set apart into Sheikh Presidency.
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:49.919
The main focus was, you know, now we have the church established, we've got very clear, you know, uh plan of salvation, it's all all the infrastructure is there.
00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:53.919
The goal now, President Oak said to us as a new state president, is to hasten the work.
00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.559
You've got the foundations, now make it go faster.
00:11:57.200 --> 00:11:58.799
We kind of bought into that.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:06.399
Uh Elder Rasmund uh counted six false narratives from those who cannot see or acknowledge what is happening.
00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:12.720
So if you push back at this, or I do, it's because we cannot see or acknowledge what is happening.
00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:14.720
We're gonna take that at face value.
00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:22.080
False narrative number one the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ than previous generations.
00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:28.240
Contrary to that narrative, more missionaries, he says, are serving Jesus Christ now than have in many years.
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.919
Your generation, uh, he continues, is not as faithful.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.320
No, you have as much faith in Jesus Christ as any previous generation.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:42.080
So, Jim, Jim Bennett, is uh this false narrative, uh this narrative number one, is it false?
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:47.600
Which is the rising generation has less faith in Jesus Christ than previous generations.
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:50.559
Well, there's a bit of sleight of hand there, isn't there?
00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.440
Because he's not talking about the rising generation.
00:12:54.080 --> 00:13:01.279
There are more people in the rising generation than had that have faith in Jesus Christ than in previous generations.
00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:28.879
What he's saying is that the generation uh is just as faithful, if not more so, than previous generations, but that allows for you to sort of shift the numbers because if this generation is smaller than previous generations, it can still sort of per capita, if you will, have as much or more faith than previous generations.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:51.200
And I think that's probably true, because I think that people who stay faithful, particularly young people who are still active and still faithful, even as we're seeing this kind of attrition in the church as a whole, uh, it the people who stay are very committed and very devoted to the church and to the cause.
00:13:51.360 --> 00:14:05.039
So I think that uh there's a little bit of, I call it sleight of hand, maybe you might call it moving the goalposts a little bit, because he's not making a numerical claim here.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:12.080
He's making a substantive claim about the nature of the faith of the rising generation.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:18.559
And I think, taken on those terms, that it's a clear accurate statement.
00:14:19.279 --> 00:14:21.120
Yeah, I I concur with that.
00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:33.440
And by the way, i i i i looked at the article, and when you start talking about growth and progress, certainly in the business world, what do people expect you to back up your statements?
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:37.360
They expect at least two things facts and numbers.
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.720
So, you know, um when you're talking about growth, how do you quantify that?
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:44.639
Well, you quantify it numerically.
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.240
You know, we're we're here, we're growing here, and this is the rated growth.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:58.000
And there appears to be no reference to that, um, any metrics, uh, any numbers in the article, and that's worrying.
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:02.000
That kind of uh jumps out as a big red flag.
00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:14.879
The other second point I want to make is that is that when you're talking about measuring faith, that's a phenomenological uh concept as opposed to positivistic.
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.320
How do you measure faith?
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:17.759
How do you quantify faith?
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.519
Well, that's very difficult to do um numerically.
00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:32.799
It's difficult to do, but that's this statement, and and it's hard to contest uh his claim that uh you know people have less faith, they probably have more, it's hard to know.
00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.360
So it's a very safe statement.
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:48.879
There's no no uh numerical quantification there, you can't measure from one unit to another, and so it's difficult to um challenge that based on uh that information.
00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:52.080
I mean, is he talking about the rising generation?
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.120
Is that young LDS Mormons?
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.039
I I suspect it is, he's talking about that.
00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:03.840
Is he talking about just pe young people in general, uh, you know, in the public across America or the world?
00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:05.039
It's unclear.
00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:07.919
So it's a very strategic, safe messaging.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:09.840
You can't challenge it or test it.
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:23.039
It you know, it could say, hey, I've heard all these personal accounts from these um sister ministries, which is course at the end, by the way, of the article, and he could say, hey, look, you can see there's the proof uh faith in human people is growing.
00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:29.279
So that's a difficult one, I think, to um to kind of uh push back on because it's you know, how do you quantify that?
00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:35.600
Uh false narrative two the church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases.
00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:37.519
And I can't wait to get your opinion on this.
00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:44.080
He says that the last 12 months saw the largest number of convert baptisms in any 12-month period in this dispensation, said Elder Asburn.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.679
It's a remarkable time to serve.
00:16:45.840 --> 00:16:50.000
He said he added the future is bright, elders and sisters, and you are at the center of it.
00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:56.000
So again, no numbers, you know, we can't compare numbers, there's no units, there's no numbers.
00:16:56.240 --> 00:17:01.360
But here's the claim the church is declining as interest in organized religion decreases.
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:02.799
What do you think about that?
00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:09.920
Uh well, I I I don't know that that one can hold up.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.000
Uh well, it depends.
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:26.880
Again, uh the there's there's so my father used to say about Mitch McConnell that he was able to make statements that didn't have any handles on them.
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:40.160
In other words, he he could make a statement that you couldn't really grab at and yank out and say, well, wait a minute, I had to take issue with this, that you would always slide off whenever you tried to grab the statement.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:54.400
And this strikes me as a similar sort of statement because you want to grab onto it and know, now wait a minute, interest is declining in organized religion, and the church interest in the church is declining with regard to organized religion.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:03.759
And yet he's kind of framing this when you when you talk about the the vast number of convert baptisms.
00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:06.960
That is, I think, a legitimate statistic.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:20.640
But again, it's it's fed by massive growth in the developing world, not in the United States and not in Europe, and not in anywhere else.
00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.799
You know, I had one of my best friends growing up served his mission in Japan.
00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:35.359
And I don't hear anything about the church in Japan anymore, and makes me think the church has all but vanished in Japan.
00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:51.039
And, you know, we we you know he is essentially taking those numbers and extrapolating outward and saying the entirety of the church is reflected in these numbers.
00:18:51.359 --> 00:18:58.559
And I don't think that if he were to say that that explicitly, that that would be a statement he could defend.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:04.079
But he's making a statement that doesn't have any handles on it that I think he can defend.
00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:08.480
As you say, it's one of these things that isn't really verifiable.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:26.559
It isn't there, there isn't any way to go after it and say, now, wait a minute, let's look at the numbers specifically, because you said this specific thing that we can track down and measure, uh, he's not offering any kind of metric that we can do that with.
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:27.519
Does that make sense?
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:28.799
It makes sense.
00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:39.119
Uh again, it it's in uh sharp contrast to um the meetings I attend where leaders of businesses actually show you the numbers, right?
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:50.079
You know, they've got the facts, they do research, because if they don't if they make a statement in business or whatever on a project or whatever, and and it's very it can't be verified, you've lost confidence immediately.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.319
I mean, you're not gonna stay in that position, right?
00:19:52.480 --> 00:20:03.200
So it it's again, it's another soft uh way of making, you know, making a statement that um there's no numbers to check it, right?
00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:10.640
I think you could it's church is experiencing growth in like in Europe from those demographics that we talked about, and Africa, you know, we hear that.
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:21.519
Um, you know, pockets of growth, but it's just um specific areas, and um again, there's no numbers, so it's hard to quantify and hard to measure.
00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.680
False narrative number three.
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:28.720
He says he says this baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others.
00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:31.279
Well, my goodness, that's such a safe statement.
00:20:31.359 --> 00:20:32.400
I've just said that, haven't I?
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.519
I've just said it's growing in Africa and growing in parts of Europe and growing in.
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:37.680
But he's saying that's false.
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.519
Well, he's saying it, false narrative.
00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:44.160
Baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others.
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.440
He's saying that's false narrative number three.
00:20:47.680 --> 00:20:53.519
He says this the number of God's children being baptized is increasing in every region of the world.
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:55.200
I'm not misquoting that here.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:02.880
Elder Rasmund said he added that the region with the highest percentage of growth in baptism uh in 2025 was Europe.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:09.200
No matter where a missionary is called, you can have faith that the Lord is hastening his work in your area.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.319
He encouraged his miracles, are filling the whole.
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:14.400
That is verifiably false.
00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:16.000
Uh that last one for sure.
00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:24.960
So his false narrative, trying to debunt the false narrative number three, he says this baptisms are increasing in some regions of the world, but not in others.
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:26.400
What does Jim Bennett be?
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:30.880
I I don't think I don't know how he could defend that statement.
00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:34.559
Just because that has always been the case.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:43.440
Is he trying to say that the rate of growth in Africa is exactly the same as the rate of growth in Scotland?
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:47.839
Because that would be a verifiably false statement to make.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:56.720
He says the number of God's children being baptized is, quote, increasing in every region of the world.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.839
Well, I you know, I don't again, we don't have access to the numbers.
00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:12.000
So I can't, you know, if I were dragged into a court of law, I can't disprove that because they don't release those numbers.
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.119
Uh they don't release, as far as I know, maybe they do.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.079
Do they release numbers of baptisms by region?
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:19.359
Yes.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:21.279
Just release total baptisms.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:21.680
Right.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.119
So when you're doing these bishop reports and state present reports, so the state president meets with the bishops every three months, right?
00:22:27.200 --> 00:22:29.759
It's the it's the bishop for all the bishops, right?
00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:31.680
And the bishops have to do reports.
00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:33.359
Uh there's all serious reports.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.440
I understand that the reports are uh lengthened somewhat.
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.559
And the state present has to issue reports to you know the area authority, 70.
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:45.519
So all those hard numbers exist.
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:52.400
You know, combat baptisms, child of record, uh a number of people holding uh temple recommends, etc.
00:22:52.640 --> 00:23:00.799
There's a metric that uh the church uh measures, and it's all online now, by the way, so you put all the information and kind of upload it, obviously.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:04.160
And uh so the church has got the numbers.
00:23:04.400 --> 00:23:05.440
It it does, right?
00:23:05.599 --> 00:23:16.000
And you know the percentage of growth by convert new convert baptisms, by stake, by ward, uh in every region in every other church.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:20.000
It's just incredibly organized when it comes to the the numbers internally.
00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:33.599
So I it's just I I'm I'm shocked that Elder Rasbund, who's now head of the NTC, is saying uh the number of God's children baptized is increasing in every region of the world.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:35.119
It's just isn't.
00:23:35.359 --> 00:23:36.480
It's just not.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.680
Unless they know something we don't.
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:40.079
I don't know.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:41.920
Without the numbers, it's hard to say.
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:43.119
Anyway.
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:46.319
Yeah, I I would I would disagree with that.
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:52.319
We taught we've talked about uh when we were talking about Elder Holland's legacy.
00:23:52.640 --> 00:24:00.960
If you recall, one of the things that Elder Holland is famous for saying is that the biggest problem that the church faces is growth.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:12.400
And he talked about specifically we're creating Mos I Menos um three to five stakes every week with something like that.
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:14.079
If you say that, sure.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:14.480
Yeah.
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:20.880
And uh, and there are many people that sort of went through that and said, no, that isn't true.
00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:26.319
So um, you know, I I mean I again we don't know.
00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:27.039
We don't know.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:28.079
We need it, we need the numbers.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:29.519
Okay, false narrative number four.
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:31.039
We've got uh you know, three more to go.
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:34.640
So uh it said here new converts are not being retained.
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:43.119
So he's saying he's trying to debunk this false narrative, uh, which uh claims uh new converts are not being back not being retained.
00:24:43.279 --> 00:24:51.359
He says here, new members actively participate after baptism in ways that are as high, if not higher, than any previous year.
00:24:51.519 --> 00:24:52.880
I mean, just think about that.
00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:53.920
So who wrote this?
00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:01.359
It's uh I mean if he wrote this is incredibly smart, but I guess someone wrote wrote I mean, I don't want to be disrespectful to him, he's a very smart guy.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.680
He probably wrote this himself, if not someone helped him.
00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:05.839
But you can't you can't challenge that.
00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:06.720
Just just look at that.
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:15.440
New members actively participate after baptism, okay, in ways that are as high, if not higher, than any previous yeah.
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.759
I mean, how do you, again, phenological, how do you measure something like that?
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:26.799
You know, they actively participate in a way that they, you know, high in a uh higher way than they do before.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.880
Yeah.
00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:45.119
Well, the only time I have ever seen um verifiable statistics was what, almost 40 years ago in Scotland, and they came from President Banks.
00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:56.079
I don't rem know if you remember this zone conference, but I it sticks out in my mind because it was so astonishing uh to see the numbers that he was talking about.
00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:01.279
And he he essentially gave the percentage of retention numbers.
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:02.480
Do you remember that?
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:17.839
Um so he said, look, um he asked rhetorically, well not rhetorically, but but he asked saying, okay, which country in the world has the highest retention rate?
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:25.279
And they defined retention rate by somebody who was still attending the church within a year of their baptism.
00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:32.799
And the highest country, and this is in 1987, this was one of the earliest zone conferences, right after I'd come out.
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.480
This was in Livingston.
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:41.200
And he said, the highest country is uh the United States, and their retention rate is 24%.
00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:48.160
And I remember just kind of my eyes bugging out, thinking, only 24%, and that's the highest?
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:53.440
And then he said, What country do you think has the lowest retention rate?
00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:55.599
And again, nobody knew.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:57.440
And he said, Japan.
00:26:58.000 --> 00:27:12.400
Japan's retention rate in 1987 was 2%, which is, you know, minuscule, which is one of the reasons why I brought Japan up earlier, because I've always thought about that and thinking they're only retaining 2% of their converts.
00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.440
I can't imagine that the church is growing in any significant way.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.400
And he said, Scotland is right in the middle.
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:20.079
Scotland is at 12%.
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:25.839
And he says, so our goal here is to increase the retention rate.
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:34.319
And that is the only time any church leader has shared with me any kind of church-wide statistics.
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:50.960
I don't know where President Banks got those statistics, but the fact that he was, that he had access to them demonstrates that they exist and that they are shared with a certain group of people, mission presidents.
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:56.400
President Banks wasn't a general authority yet, but he became a general authority not long after.
00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:00.160
But mission presidents apparently do have access to data like this.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:05.839
I would think that President Watson probably has access to data like this.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:25.440
And if the data were really supportive of the idea that church growth is just going like gangbusters, and that retention is just going like gangbusters, we would see those statistics.
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:29.839
We see the statistics that make the church look good.
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:42.960
And the statistic, the raw statistic of convert baptisms, given the amount of growth we're seeing in the developing world, that number makes the church look good.
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:52.720
But when you say, okay, uh, Elder Rasband, we have more convert baptisms than we've ever had, well, that's great.
00:28:52.960 --> 00:29:00.079
And then you tell me, but it that it's equal in every different mission field?
00:29:01.039 --> 00:29:02.960
Can I see those numbers, please?
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:13.839
The fact that we can't see those numbers suggests that they don't make the church look nearly as good as the raw larger number.
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:14.559
Yeah.
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:16.720
I I think you've absolutely nailed it.
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:25.680
You know, that when you make these kind of statements uh in front of 900 missionaries and you can't back it up with numbers, that's a big red flag.
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.799
And and people like you and I, many others see that immediately.
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.000
You know, we're not stupid.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:30.880
That's a problem.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:37.119
And to your point, when the numbers are real and the real growth, we we will see those numbers.
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:44.319
Um I'm just looking at the what appears to be the quote from Elder Holland that you made reference to earlier, and I think this is it.
00:29:44.559 --> 00:29:48.480
Elder Holland, in a regional meeting a while back, um, he said this.
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:55.759
He said, the church is growing in such a rate that it is creating double digits, uh new state creation every week of our lives.
00:29:56.000 --> 00:29:56.559
End quote.
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:01.440
He says here that we are in the midst of incredible growth, staggering growth in the church.
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:03.680
It's the single biggest problem we have.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:06.400
It's the best problem we could have, but the biggest.
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:09.839
We are reeling under the implications of growth we have in this church.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.960
We could go first and we created 15 stakes.
00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:17.359
We're doing that um every week, more or less.
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:18.960
It might not be 15.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.480
The week before it was 12.
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:21.599
I remember him saying that, Jane.
00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:22.160
Do you remember that?
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:23.920
Sometimes it's eight.
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.759
Um or whatever, and it will be a little uneven.
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:33.599
But the point is we're talking double-digit stakes every week, every week of our lives.
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:35.599
Uh I was extraordinary.
00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:42.640
I just because it didn't seem to uh ring true with you know what I'm seeing in Europe and um and uh the UK.
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:59.839
Anyway, so uh and and Elder Asmund just goes on to qualify what he means by participating, you know, in the church, which obviously they do, you know, by attending sacred meeting, performing vicarious temple work, eventually making temple covenants, hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the saviour.
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.079
So that's interesting, his first reference to hundreds of thousands.
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:06.480
That's what he said.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:11.279
Hundreds of thousands are acting in faith after baptism to follow the saviour.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.720
Now that's the first time we've seen any reference to uh you know numbers, you know, thousands.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:22.000
But he's talking about hundreds of thousands.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:29.279
Now, technically, clinically, what is hundreds of thousands numerically, would you say, in your mind?
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:34.720
Um well 100,000 and one?
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:36.079
Is that fair?
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:40.480
Well, 100,000 and one wouldn't be hundred thousands.
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:46.880
If it's hundred thousands plural, I think if you're being honest, it would happen to at least two hundred thousand.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:47.759
I would agree.
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:49.279
Yeah, I would agree.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:32:00.000
So uh, you know, I mean, is it correct that hundreds of thousands are acting in faith?
00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:02.319
You know, the it says yeah, after baptism.
00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:04.319
So that means hundreds of thousands are joining.
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:06.960
And if they are well, let's look at the numbers.
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:09.519
Anyway, uh, it goes on.
00:32:09.599 --> 00:32:10.240
There's two more.
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.680
Uh false narrative number five, and this is interesting.
00:32:13.759 --> 00:32:15.599
Uh I'd love to get your view on this.
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:19.279
More missionaries come on early than ever before.
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:20.960
He said that's a false narrative.
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:21.519
It says this.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:27.440
It says this an overwhelming majority of missionaries are completing their service to the Lord Jesus Christ.
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:35.119
This includes teaching missionaries who, due to physical or emotional health, transfer to a service missionary assignment to finish their mission.
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:40.480
Elder Rasmond goes on to say, he also expressed rather gratitude for missionaries who complete their missions.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:47.359
He said, remember, the call from our prophet is to serve two years for our elders and 18 months uh for our sisters.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:48.720
Thank you for willingness to serve.
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:59.759
But going back to the uh his efforts to try to uh bunk, debunk um this false narrative, he says here, it says here, more missionaries come home early than ever before.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:01.279
What do you think about that?
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:04.799
Okay, can you see the slide a hand in that one?
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:05.839
Yep.
00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:17.200
Because he says, all right, I'm gonna debunk this narrative, and the way he debunks it is not saying giving us the kind of numbers that would specifically debunk it.
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:30.079
If, you know, a hundred missionaries a year, I mean, and these numbers have no grounding in reality, they're just easy numbers to they're nice round numbers to be able to wrap our brains around for purposes of the discussion.
00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:51.839
But if a hundred missionaries um came home early last year, and this year 95 missionaries came home early, then that would debunk the idea that more missionaries are coming home early than ever before, even if it's a slight number.
00:33:51.920 --> 00:33:55.359
Uh you know, that would debunk that specific claim.
00:33:55.599 --> 00:34:02.319
But the counterclaim that Elder Rasband offers is not uh a measurable number.
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:12.800
What he says is that the overwhelming number of missionaries finish their service, which is a different metric.
00:34:13.039 --> 00:34:15.039
It's not the same metric.
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:29.599
Uh the when when we were missionaries in, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, but the stigma attached to going home early was unbelievably massive.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:31.360
Am I right on that?
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.079
100%.
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:34.079
I I just on that.
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:36.400
I my first two weeks, I hated it.
00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:48.159
It was that I you know, I'd left my girlfriend, I'd left my great job, um, my music, my life, I'd I'd uh I was English.
00:34:48.639 --> 00:34:51.039
The Scots don't some of the Scots don't like English.
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:58.960
The first two weeks was absolutely I thought I felt I'd made the biggest mistake in my life, and I've talked about this on a previous podcast.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:06.719
But notwithstanding all that, and it was absolute hell, freezing cold, rejection, no one interested.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.239
I'm like, I'm wasting my time.
00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:15.840
It was rejection after rejection after rejection, 10, you know, 11 hours a day in the rain.
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:16.960
It was brutal.
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:26.159
However, the thing that kept me out in those first few weeks, there's no way, not a chance in hell that I was gonna go back home early.
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:31.599
I said to my companion, and and I I meant this, I'd rather die.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.480
And I didn't grow up in the church, right?
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:52.480
You grew up in the church, so immense pressure on uh missionaries who have been gone through the entire cultural experience from your primary, right, and been taught to go on a full-time mission, and that's the biggest goal that you can do, uh, you know, other than getting married.
00:35:52.719 --> 00:35:56.719
But anyway, um, there's no way I was gonna go back and and and be a failure.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:35:58.000
I I would have died first.
00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:01.920
So that what you said is absolutely true.
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:04.480
Yeah, that's the last thing you do, right?
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:05.679
You don't what you don't go home.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.039
The pressure was intense.
00:36:07.760 --> 00:36:13.920
Well, so so I um was longer than two weeks.
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:21.360
I I I look back on it now, and I look back at my whole life, and it this isn't just a spiritual issue.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:31.199
I have dealt with medical depression for the vast majority of my life uh and continue to deal with it to some degree.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:34.559
I think I've got it under control, I've got it manageable.
00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:53.599
And by the when I was serving as a missionary, um that really wasn't uh, you know, even if I had somehow said or gotten some kind of diagnosis, there wasn't any sort of tools available to help a missionary struggling with depression.
00:36:53.920 --> 00:37:03.840
So uh that said, I had fantasies of escaping my mission.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:35.760
And I knew, for instance, that President Banks was holding my passport, and so I didn't, I couldn't leave the country uh legally, and uh rather than confront President Banks, uh I had these wild fantasies, and they were just fantasies, but uh, of you know, escaping by foot and then going through Russia and crossing over to Alaska on a land bridge.
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.199
I mean, it's ridiculous.
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:41.679
And so, of course, I was never ever anywhere close to doing anything like that.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:38:02.239
But my point is those ridiculous, absurd fantasies of escaping my mission, and the idea was that I would probably just go to New York and try to make it as an actor and uh assume a new name and a new identity and never see my family again, and just be this entirely new person.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:10.400
Uh, that was preferable to me than the shame and the disgrace of going home early.
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:10.639
Yeah.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:15.760
Of saying, I've got to go home and I'm gonna be a missionary that went home early.
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:22.400
I mean, I just could not conceive of just what what shame that was.
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:29.440
And I didn't know in, I didn't know a single missionary growing up who came home early.
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:30.239
Not one.
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:31.679
Not a single one.
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:38.880
I don't remember any time in my ward or in my stake, uh, even whispers of somebody coming home early.
00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.360
It was just not something you did.
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:44.000
It was not acceptable.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:50.320
And fade out, fade in, uh, well, this is this is 15 years ago.
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:53.119
This is when I was serving in a bishopric.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:39:00.559
Um, roughly half of the missionaries that we set out when I was at a bishopric came home early.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.639
And they came and talked to us about it.
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:11.199
Some of them came home for health reasons, uh, but by health reasons, they were talking about mental health.
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.639
They were talking about depression.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:22.800
Those who came home for health reasons, I mean, there were some others who came home for other medical reasons and got, including the bishop's son, he had a he had a medical uh issue.
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:28.719
He came home from his mission, uh, went and got surgery, and then went back to his mission.
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:31.360
So he wasn't really coming home early.
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:35.199
But there were people who came home early because they were depressed.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:43.679
And I would have, and and those who came home early for depression were given honorable releases.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:49.039
They were, oh, you've you've come home for health reasons, and so that's no problem, and you have an honorable release.
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:53.440
Uh, others came home for non-honorable releases.
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:56.880
Uh, you know, they came home because they were unresolved.
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:12.239
Um I remember one missionary, we sent him out, and then it was about three weeks later, we drove, I drove into the church parking lot and saw this missionary getting out of his car.
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:19.840
And I this was a very insensitive thing to say, but I looked at him and I went, uh, well, what are you doing here?
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:30.239
He'd come home because he had had some uh issues, uh, it wasn't a health problem, and he'd come home early.
00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:34.320
Uh, but so I don't know.
00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:47.039
I to give Elder Rasband a benefit of the doubt here, uh, maybe he's measuring this against uh much more recent statistics.
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:53.360
Uh so, for instance, everything I'm telling you comes from 15 years ago.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:41:05.440
Uh, and I I have not seen the same kind of attrition uh recently, but I also, frankly, don't see as many young men going out on missions.
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:12.880
Uh a lot more, a lot, it's a lot more acceptable, really, for young men to say, no, no, thanks.
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:16.880
And it's not that they are they even go inactive or they leave the church.
00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:19.840
They just say, no, I don't, I don't want to go on a mission.
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:27.519
And again, that was that was a I I had seen that growing up, uh, but I sort of looked down my nose at it.
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:29.119
I thought, oh, well, there's something wrong.
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:30.880
You're on, you're not righteous.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:39.039
Uh, you know, of all the judgmentalism, I just look back at myself and I I want to go back in time and kick myself in the head.
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:46.239
It's like, geez, Jim, you really did not have the kind of empathy and compassion you ought to have had when you were growing up.
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:48.400
But that's an entirely other story.
00:41:48.639 --> 00:42:15.119
So if you're comparing the numbers from now, from 2026 to say 2011, which is essentially the time frame I'm talking about, uh, if 2011 was the peak of missionaries coming home, then Eldarasband is telling the truth when he says that there are not more missionaries coming home now than ever before.
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:30.800
But there are certainly more missionaries coming home than came home during any time that we were growing up, and probably during the time before that as well, because that was not an acceptable thing to do.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:44.400
Now, the other sleight of hand in that statement, uh, and this is something that has happened in my ward, is he talks about people who come home but they fulfill their missionary service in a service mission.
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:59.679
There's a missionary in our ward, for instance, that gave his homecoming, but he has been home for over a year because he came home after a year after struggling on his mission, and they reassigned him to a service mission, and he was allowed to live at home.
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:08.000
And the service mission, obviously, was not the kind of all-enveloping sort of mission that we experienced.
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:09.679
He was living at home.
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.239
Uh, I think he even had a job.
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:25.360
Uh, you know, so he was, he was, you know, he was not serving the same kind of mission that we were not allowed to leave from.
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:31.920
But Elder Rasbang can say, well, but he is completing his mission and he's completing his mission service.
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:51.440
And so there's kind of an admission there that one of the ways we have stemmed the tide of huge numbers coming home is redefining what a mission is and counting people who come home and serve a service mission.
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:53.519
Do you see that in that statement?
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.719
Is that a is that a fair evaluation of that statement?
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:57.679
I do.
00:43:57.840 --> 00:43:58.239
I do.
00:43:58.320 --> 00:43:59.760
I as I listen to you, I'm thinking.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:01.199
You know, where is he measuring?
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:03.679
What's the date points right that he's measuring?
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:24.159
And if he's measuring from time, you know, like earlier when it was more obvious that people coming on early and but it's not happening as much now, and there's different reasons and there's different types of missions, you know, so very um not black and white anymore, it's it's it's quite a um the varied way of of of measuring things.
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:35.920
So I think it's uh again, without to i you need to know what you're measuring from in A to B, and you need to know the the the time points, right?
00:44:36.079 --> 00:44:37.760
The date and time points.
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.880
And so with the lack of detail, it's hard to know you know what he you know what he means.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:57.199
But I think um, you know, if he's talking about, like you said, a time when there were more people coming home earlier, and there's not that's not happening so much now generally, then yeah, he's he's um probably correct on that.
00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:00.480
The last narrative, Jim, uh is this one.
00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:06.639
It's um that he's trying to debunk missionaries are not good enough and can't measure up.
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:15.519
He says uh to training missionaries who don't feel good enough right now, Elder Rasbund assured they are in good company.
00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:20.159
Uh he said many leaders throughout church history felt inadequate to do such important work.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:24.239
He says that here, with all the energy of my soul, I share this truth.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.559
You, every one of you, can do this, he said.
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.960
I testify that the Lord has a work for each of you to do.
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:36.320
As you trust in him, he will make more out of you than you could have imagined.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:43.360
It reminds me of one of those, you know, those horoscopes that you read it, right?
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:48.880
And it fits every aspect of your life or certain parts of your life at this time.
00:45:49.039 --> 00:45:57.360
You know, today will be a challenge, and people will come and ask you questions for advice and and you know, I mean, that happens all the time, right?
00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:05.360
I mean, it's that's the kind of when I read that, that's the kind of general horoscope BS that you know we read.
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:11.840
Um I don't read stuff like that, but that um we see in some of these uh these magazines and stuff.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.920
And um, you know, misshes are not good enough and can't measure up.
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:26.480
Well, I I can guarantee there are there is uh many of those 900 missions that were there, it's in some way at some point haven't felt good enough, right?
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:29.119
And felt at some point they can't measure up.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.920
Certainly a sizeable percentage.
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:33.360
But what do you get from that?
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:40.800
When he's making those horoscope general horoscope type statements, say it missions are not good enough and can't measure up.
00:46:40.960 --> 00:46:44.480
Um, he's saying that's a false, he's trying to debunt that as a false narrative.
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:45.440
What do you think about that?
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:50.000
Well, I think that's actually probably the best point he has here.
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:50.880
Right.
00:46:51.119 --> 00:47:01.440
Because that is something that I wish people had said to me when I was a missionary, and I think that's something that every missionary needs to hear.
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.480
Because every missionary feels inadequate.
00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.639
Every missionary is overwhelmed when they get out into the field.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.920
This is something that they've never done before.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:24.159
It's something unlike anything they have done before, and they are tasked with so much responsibility, and these missionaries are 18 years old back in the day.
00:47:24.320 --> 00:47:29.840
I mean, you were a little older, but back in the day, most missionaries were 19 years old when they went out.
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:36.800
And it's the whole thing we've talked about repeatedly on this podcast about this idea of you are enough.
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:43.519
And I don't think there's a missionary that goes out into the field that believes they are enough.
00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:50.960
And I think this is a very helpful message for Elder Rasman to be giving to young missionaries to tell them you are enough.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:54.159
Um, the Lord is pleased with your efforts.
00:47:54.400 --> 00:48:05.039
The Lord, you know, it so so that that's the one uh debunking here that uh I think is sort of evergreen.
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:08.320
I think every missionary needs to hear something like that.
00:48:08.480 --> 00:48:12.239
And so I am very pleased that Elder Rasband has said that.
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:24.559
Uh, but you're right, it's it's not um that there is sort of a horoscopy kind of element to it in that it applies to everyone.
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:33.519
But in this case, I think that's a good thing because it does genuinely apply to everyone in a way that everyone I think needs to hear that.
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:39.199
Wouldn't it would you have felt better if someone had told you that at the beginning of your mission?
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:39.920
I would.
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:40.320
Would.
00:48:40.559 --> 00:48:43.280
Yeah, I I think he's it I agree with you.
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:45.199
I think he's it's good that he said that.
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:46.639
You know, we we all felt that.
00:48:46.960 --> 00:48:49.199
I can't believe I got through those two years, frankly.
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:50.960
I felt inadequate every day.
00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:55.599
You know, I wake up in the morning and I'm like, what um how am I gonna get through the day?
00:48:55.679 --> 00:49:01.360
It was so I I think for me, Jim, it was the the fact that no one was interested.
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:14.639
Yeah, the vast majority of people I talked to, chatted with, uh, had conversations with, when even the friendly, and there were many friendly people in Scotland um that just kind of passed the time of day with us, they just weren't interested.
00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:17.440
And I just thought I'm I'm a complete waste of my time.
00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:21.679
And then after a while of no success, a day, right?
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.920
A few hours of you feel like, you know, what are you doing wrong?
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:31.679
And and under President Dunn, not President Banks, it was down to a lack of obedience, right?
00:49:32.000 --> 00:49:38.480
So he'd sit down with us and say, you know, uh uh what the the the one-to-one interviews, and I was living with exactness, right?
00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:39.760
I really was.
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:45.840
And um, you know, we're working on a P-Day, for goodness sake, and you weren't supposed to do that.
00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:55.199
President Dunn got um stripped down by Calcy AC uh when Carlos found out that President was making the initiatives work on a P-Day.
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:56.960
So we went above and beyond.
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:15.360
But when I had my interview with President Dunn, the the lack of uh the reason why I wasn't being successful, the reason I wasn't a successful missionary, Elder Wilts, is that you'd probably be doing some things that you shouldn't be doing, i.e., masturbating or or maybe thinking about girls or you know, just something that I wasn't right in my life.
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:22.960
And that's and by the way, Elder Elder Wilkes, you you know, by being disobedient, you're having an impact on the entire mission.
00:50:23.119 --> 00:50:27.440
You have an impact on your companionship, on your companion, on the district, on the zone.
00:50:27.599 --> 00:50:28.559
It's a team, right?
00:50:28.639 --> 00:50:31.840
So if I'm letting the um not doing things right, I'm letting the team down.
00:50:32.000 --> 00:50:33.280
Do you know how that makes you feel?
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:35.360
Especially when you're when it's not true.
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:36.159
Sure.
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:37.840
It's well, yeah, you know.
00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:43.760
I mean, I think every missionary, you know, who would would um you know would know how they feel on that.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:46.320
I mean, that's that was my experience.
00:50:46.719 --> 00:50:54.880
So to come out and actually say that you know you are good enough and you're okay, I think it's um a breath of fresh air compared to my experience, Frankfurt.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:55.679
It's completely different.
00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:59.599
So I I I yeah, there's a there's a point there for you elder husband.
00:50:59.679 --> 00:51:03.119
So do you remember Elder uh Parsons, I think his name was?
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:05.760
I I do, and I'm actually in touch with him recently.
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:08.880
Last week we've re reconnected.
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.920
Oh, uh he was he was so much fun.
00:51:12.000 --> 00:51:16.639
Uh he was had such a dry sense of humor, and he was an Englishman like yourself.
00:51:17.039 --> 00:51:26.000
And he at one point was assigned to be a traveling elder, I think was the do you remember that?
00:51:26.159 --> 00:51:33.679
That they they they created this circumstance where there were these two elders that would just go to all the different zones.
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:39.199
I was very jealous because I wanted to do that because I thought it would be a lot of fun to be able to travel like that throughout the whole country.
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:44.159
But it was Elder Parsons and Elder Uh Johnston, I think.
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:46.000
Elder Johnston, yeah, I remember him.
00:51:46.079 --> 00:51:57.039
Yeah, but but Elder Parsons, I remember we were talking, and I I've never forgotten this because I refused to accept it when he said this.
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:28.400
But um uh we were talking, and I think it was my companion at the time, Elder Rose, I think it was, who said something like, Um, well, uh, we have done everything we can to prepare for you being here, uh, because we don't want to miss out on the blessings that will come uh if we if we live righteously.
00:52:28.559 --> 00:52:31.519
I'm totally butchering the paraphrase.
00:52:31.679 --> 00:52:39.199
Well, but it was something along the lines of, we've been extra good, Elder Parsons, uh, so we should have success.
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:46.800
And Elder Parsons' response was, and I've never forgotten this, he says, Well, why does that matter?
00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:52.880
It's not as if the Lord is going to deny the gospel to somebody because a missionary is a waster.
00:52:54.079 --> 00:53:01.039
And I remember hearing that, and I didn't, I didn't allow myself to believe it.
00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:03.440
It was, oh no, no, no, of course he will.
00:53:03.679 --> 00:53:04.719
Of course he will.
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:13.440
And not only will he deny uh a missionary success for that, but I will be held accountable.
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:31.360
The day of judgment will come, and I will meet this person that I should have shared the gospel to, and that would have accepted the gospel if I were just living better, and the fact that I had slipped up, he will stand to condemn me at the last day.
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:44.480
I mean, saying that, verbalizing that, and I think that's one of the first times I've ever verbalized that specific moment, but that just seems so ludicrous to me now.
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:48.400
But that's exactly how I thought.
00:53:48.639 --> 00:54:02.480
That's the amount of guilt, the amount of shame, the amount of self-loathing that fueled my mission is just staggering to me.
00:54:02.880 --> 00:54:06.159
And I, you know, I look back on my mission.
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:22.079
We we had my son Samuel on the podcast, and he had a really difficult mission because he was diagnosed at one point with a condition known as scrupulosity, which is religious obsessive compulsive disorder.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:25.599
And it was fueled by his mission president.
00:54:25.760 --> 00:54:49.119
You know, there was an incident in the MTC, and I just for anybody who I don't know if they remember this, I don't know if you remember this, uh, but there was an incident in the MTC that I don't want to get into that uh by um by association, my son Samuel was was kind of implicated in it.
00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:58.000
And because he was living in the same bungalow as the people that were doing all these other things, and so was my his twin brother, who they were both going to different missions in Argentina.
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:04.400
And when his twin brother went to Argentina, his mission president said, Oh, you didn't do anything, uh, get to work.
00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:13.679
When Sam went to Argentina, his mission president said, You know, we've got to really decide whether or not you're worthy to be here and whether or not we should send you home.
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:24.719
So you need to study all of these scriptures on repentance and report to me every stinking week and justify you being here.
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:35.920
And this kind of destroyed him because my son Samuel is so um scrupulous about doing the right thing.
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:38.639
He's a great, great kid, a great, great guy.
00:55:38.719 --> 00:55:40.079
He's he's in now he's 24.
00:55:40.159 --> 00:55:43.440
I shouldn't call him a kid, uh almost 25.
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:48.159
And he um but he internalized that.
00:55:48.719 --> 00:56:05.039
And he he was praying something like 20 something times a day, and he was you know just studying the script, and this was during COVID, so they had nothing else to do but study scriptures, and he was maniacally studying these scriptures and making notes, and he was never, ever, ever, ever, ever good enough.
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:08.559
And that did so much damage.
00:56:09.119 --> 00:56:20.719
And when when he came home, it he came home in the midst of COVID, and uh they were both reassigned to different missions, but he he came to us and said, I can't go back out.
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.920
I can't do this, I can't face this again.
00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:30.800
And we got him into treatment, and he got to a point where he did actually go back out and he finished his mission.
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:42.480
Uh, but you know, this this kind of stuff is stuff that when we were missionaries, you weren't allowed to even talk about this.
00:56:42.719 --> 00:57:06.719
You weren't even allowed to even consider the possibility that uh it was anything but you you and your problem, that there was any justification for feelings of inadequacy, feelings of guilt, feelings of lousiness, other than the fact that you deserved to feel that way because you were not enough.
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:21.360
And so, I mean, if there's anything positive to take from this, I uh uh this talk by Elder Rasband, and I know that you you are taking issue with it to a large degree, and I think justifiably in in much of it.
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:32.320
But it if there's any missionary out there that hears Elder Rasband, tell them, you know what, you can do this.
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:47.280
You are good enough for this, you don't have to feel inadequate, you don't have to feel guilty, you don't have to feel awful about yourself, uh, then I think it's a a speech that was worth giving, or it's a it's an article that was worth uh writing.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:48.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:53.280
That's just uh incredibly valuable what you just shared.
00:57:53.440 --> 00:58:03.679
And as I listen intently to you, you know, on the mission, I when you and I said missions, it's not changed with missions today.
00:58:04.079 --> 00:58:15.280
There is a um uh numerical, quantifiable metric that the mission president uses, you know, new convert baptisms, etc.
00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:15.599
etc.
00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:18.880
The mission president got this these metrics they have to report on.
00:58:19.519 --> 00:58:37.760
It's uh typically traditionally being numerical, but I wonder to Elder Asbund's point, if the mission presidents across the board, I suspect this is not the case, not the case and not formal, or probably not in place, but should be.
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:51.679
I wonder if the missionaries are being measured in other ways and not just numerically in terms of how many people you know come in come into the church.
00:58:51.920 --> 00:59:21.920
Because if you're measuring your worth and your value on numerical performance of how many people join, then in tough missions, you know, when you're in a mission and it's people joining like in Africa all the time, well those missions are gonna feel completely different than if they're serving in Scotland, you know, where it's a tough mission, and if you're lucky, one will join in two years, or you know, two if you if it's a miracle, right?
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:28.719
And if one stays in the church out of those two, well, my goodness, that's that's a miracle as well.
00:59:28.960 --> 00:59:45.920
So for if we're attaching self-worth, self-steem, and and guilt, and and how we are valued on a personal level, you know, internalizing it, and we've been told that hey, to be a successful missionary, you need to reach the you know, this number.
00:59:46.159 --> 00:59:51.039
If that's all that's been measured, then that absolutely is dangerous.
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:54.320
And we saw that, you and I saw that in Scotland.
00:59:54.719 --> 01:00:13.360
You know, when you get to uh the when you've got the zone leader thing and AP, part of the remit in the zone leader calling changes somewhat from the other missionaries, uh, you and you know this, because the zone leader role isn't just uh you know traditional baptizing and knocking on doors, that's a big part of it.
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:16.719
But the zone leader is in charge of his missionaries, go look after his missionaries.
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:34.320
So I had, and you have to have monthly interviews with the missionaries, and the missionaries in my zone, when I was the uh zone leader, um, especially when I was a senior zone leader, they would open up to me, and the struggles that they were going through was just tragic.
01:00:34.719 --> 01:00:38.159
And I said, don't worry about the numbers, just do your best.
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:40.400
Just be the best and love people.
01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:54.960
You know, have obviously track obviously the numbers part of it, but just be the best, do service projects, connect with the members, go spend time with the members, and you know, don't be so hung up about measuring uh the numbers.
01:00:55.199 --> 01:01:05.360
I remember when I had or tried to have that conversation with President Dunn, who you didn't serve on that, you served with uh Banks and uh Josie Field McConkie, I think it was.
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:11.360
President Dunn uh measured uh numbers.
01:01:11.599 --> 01:01:14.320
It was just the numbers he was interested in, it was nothing else.
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:22.800
And President Banks was like that to some extent, not as much as uh well that numbers was big with President Banks, but President Banks was more of a very a good people person.
01:01:22.880 --> 01:01:40.559
Uh he didn't formally measure you know relationships with missionaries you know, in terms of how the mission is being effective in in other ways, um I don't think from memory, but President Dunn did, and he wasn't bothered about he didn't want them to have long dinner appointments.
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:51.039
He said you need to be about their tracting and finding people to join the church, and he said within 20 minutes of like a dinner appointment, if the members haven't given you a referral, you need to leave.
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.000
Uh so it was all about numbers with President Dunn.
01:01:54.079 --> 01:02:11.760
Him and I didn't uh click, as you could probably tell, and the missionaries I i it it's you know my experience with President Dunning was absolutely brutal, and I felt a complete failure because I wasn't having very you know many uh I wasn't having any success with people joining the church.
01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:14.719
Um and therefore I felt a complete failure.
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:21.760
I think in my entire mission, I think I baptized nine people in two years in Scotland.
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:24.639
Uh and I think most of those people fell away.
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:34.800
Uh and you and you kept them and you remember the number, because you're you're told you're not supposed to count them, and yet that's the number that so my number was fourteen.
01:02:35.039 --> 01:02:36.000
Oh wow, okay.
01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:39.199
Uh but I I took credit for all these different people.
01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:41.920
Uh I mean 14 people that I taught.
01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:42.559
Right.
01:02:42.719 --> 01:02:47.440
Uh I'm the number of people I physically baptized was I I think that it was two.
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:50.880
Um uh maybe it's more than that.
01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:52.639
Uh and it was three.
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:53.599
Uh anyway.
01:02:53.760 --> 01:02:55.360
I mean, I remember that.
01:02:55.519 --> 01:02:58.239
Uh I don't think a single one of them is active.
01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:05.519
I I I I in fact I'm uh pretty much a hundred percent sure that not a single one of them is active.
01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:06.079
Right.
01:03:06.559 --> 01:03:10.639
Only one of my nine has uh stayed in the church.
01:03:10.800 --> 01:03:22.239
So if we can measuring Elder Wilt based on that, you know, nine people, two years, um, one still active, uh I'm you know, I failed, right?
01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:26.719
So I I I look back by the way, I you're braver than I am.
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:30.320
You've got much more courage of talking about how you felt on the mission, you're talking about depression.
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:32.000
I struggle with stuff like that.
01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:47.920
I struggle talking about that, but I can tell you here right now, and um I mean this won't surprise you, it might surprise others who will listen to this, but that they labelled me, or some people labeled me as some kind of rock on the mission.
01:03:48.079 --> 01:03:49.280
You know, not everyone, obviously.
01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:54.480
I'm not some kind of giant, you know, the spiritual giant by any means, not making such a claim.
01:03:54.719 --> 01:04:11.039
But I there are people that described me as a rock, you know, because I was you know focused, I was obedient, I did all the right things, said all the right things, but underneath Jim, I was crumbling, if I'm being honest.
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:13.760
Um, I was not a rock at all.
01:04:13.840 --> 01:04:22.800
Uh I was struggling, uh, you know, I had issues before I even went on a mission, self-esteem, self-worth, you know, from my childhood and dealing with all that.
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:40.719
And somehow, some way, in a way that I I can't understand or explain or uh work out, I was able to hide all that without going crazy, without going mad, without having a breakdown or some mental health crisis.
01:04:40.960 --> 01:04:58.320
But there were times um I there were a couple of nights I cried myself to sleep quietly, you know, when my companion was asleep, and I because I felt such a failure, not just as a missionary, but as a human being, because of you know the the past, you know, the background.
01:04:58.719 --> 01:05:04.000
And wanted so desper desperately to be good at something, just one thing.
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:10.000
And I was told, you know, uh Ian, if you go on a mission, um that will be your legacy, that'll be the greatest thing.
01:05:10.159 --> 01:05:30.400
And the my mission was a legacy, it was successful in many, many ways, and and I there's so many great things that came out of that, but there was still so much that in terms of the numbers, and in in in other ways that I don't want to uh not strong enough or courageous enough like you are to get into it in terms of depression.
01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:33.760
Um I felt a complete failure on a on a mission.
01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:37.519
So for Elder Rasmus to to mention that, yeah, I I I think it's good.
01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:46.880
I think it's really important to remind Mish is that um they are incredibly wonderful people, you know, young these are you young men and women who are extraordinary.
01:05:47.039 --> 01:05:52.800
I mean, to go on a mission, um I mean it's very different now, Jim, isn't it, compared to when you and I were going out there.
01:05:52.960 --> 01:05:59.599
All these issues that um you and I came across on the dossier that we've got, hey, and you know, anti Mormon, I'm not worried about that.
01:06:00.000 --> 01:06:00.400
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:00.960
Heard about that.
01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:02.320
It's anti-Mormon, etc.
01:06:02.559 --> 01:06:05.119
And we kind of followed the that dominant narrative.
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:13.039
Now with the internet and going online, trying to recruit people online and trying to manage all the digital world.
01:06:13.119 --> 01:06:14.639
And now you've got AI.
01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:23.360
Yeah, I wonder I I've got a question for you here, and we kind of wrap it up in a few minutes, but what have you heard about AI and missionary work?
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:25.039
Have you heard anything along those lines?
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:32.239
Because I'm I'm hearing stuff that the church is using AI online to bring people to the missionaries.
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:52.800
So, you know, God someone told me all the weekend that God is behind AI and He has uh inspired mankind to develop this technology, and the church is now using AI, and that doesn't surprise me, to uh accelerate uh, or in Elder Rasmussen's word, haste in the work.
01:06:53.039 --> 01:07:02.079
What have you heard about AI in the uh context of um the missionary effort, the the current missionary effort, if anything?
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:03.360
Uh nothing.
01:07:03.679 --> 01:07:12.880
I I've seen the church's handbook revisions on AI, and I'm sort of mindful of those because I'm kinda embracing AI.
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:19.280
I think AI is wonderful, and I've obviously produced all these goofy little videos for this podcast.
01:07:19.599 --> 01:07:33.440
I'm also uh releasing all of the songs I've written uh because AI gives me an opportunity to be able to create professional sounding recordings of them and to create compelling videos of them.
01:07:33.599 --> 01:07:37.199
And I can do that all myself, and I've never been able to do that.
01:07:37.280 --> 01:07:46.960
So I love it, but I am mindful of the fact that a lot of people uh in the church particularly are sort of unnerved by it.
01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:51.519
And, you know, for our last live stream, I created a video of Boyd K.
01:07:51.679 --> 01:07:57.280
Packer, and our intro video for our live stream right now is Bruce R.
01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:59.440
McConkie, and it's all AI.
01:07:59.599 --> 01:08:08.800
I just you know take a video of them and lip sync uh an AI-produced rep reproduction of their voice.
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:16.159
And I did that, I did I did one of those initially uh right after President Oaks became president of the church.
01:08:16.479 --> 01:08:24.640
And I had Gary, you know, Gary Stevenson, when he introduced President Oaks, called him Dallas H.
01:08:24.800 --> 01:08:25.279
Oaks.
01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:27.439
And it was kind of funny.
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:34.880
And so I used AI and I showed that snippet, and then I AI's Gary Stevens saying, That's right, I said Dallas H.
01:08:35.039 --> 01:08:35.520
Oaks.
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.319
Uh, this is proof that we're not infallible.
01:08:38.399 --> 01:08:42.000
And I thought that was a very gentle, kind of silly thing.
01:08:42.239 --> 01:08:51.840
And I got a message from a guy I grew up with in my ward in California, who said, How dare you attack the brethren like that?
01:08:52.079 --> 01:08:52.319
Wow.
01:08:52.560 --> 01:08:54.399
I mean, that that was so offensive.
01:08:54.560 --> 01:09:00.079
And how, you know, and and so I'm sure there are people, and that's one of the reasons why in this last Boyd K.
01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:03.600
Packer video, I've had him say, I'm not really Boy K.
01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:04.239
Packer.
01:09:04.319 --> 01:09:06.640
I am an AI-generated animation.
01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:11.119
I I don't want people to think that I'm trying to fool anybody.
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:15.520
I'm trying to poke fun in a very gentle kind of way.
01:09:16.239 --> 01:09:20.000
And I I think the church is very sensitive about that.
01:09:20.079 --> 01:09:32.479
And and and so I I but I would be very surprised if the church is not using AI for a number of things, and I'd be very surprised if missionaries are not using AI for a number of things.
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:33.680
I mean, it's so easy.
01:09:33.840 --> 01:09:48.239
Uh, missionaries spend a lot of their time following up leads and and different sorts of investigators and sending out emails, and you know, AI is really helpful for that kind of busy work.
01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:52.800
You know, that an AI, it's like write, write a response to this guy saying we'll see him.
01:09:53.279 --> 01:09:58.560
I mean, I don't see anything wrong with that, uh, but maybe some other folks do.
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:02.239
But uh, I of course the church is using AI.
01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:04.640
Everybody is going to be using AI.
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:08.640
It's just a question of what are the guardrails and what are the boundaries.
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:09.359
Yeah.
01:10:09.520 --> 01:10:14.079
Um, just uh just on that, this is what I've heard uh recently over the weekend.
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:25.840
Uh, two main uh threads of thinking on AI for the church, that the church is using these tools, developing these tools to try to hasten the work to Elder Aspen's point.
01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:38.239
You know, having these technologies where you can have an avatar and you can creep something and deliver this wonderful message, and you can have all these different conversations going on through AI avatars, having the conversation and having it through AI.
01:10:38.399 --> 01:10:48.880
So, you know, for example, if you're an avatar right now, I could have a conversation with you, uh, just like I'm having a conversation with a real with the real Jim Bennett, right?
01:10:48.960 --> 01:10:55.439
It could be Jim Bennett AI avatar and identical similar conversations based on you and your testimony, etc.
01:10:55.600 --> 01:11:02.479
So I'm hearing um the church look at AI and kind of personalizing AI through these um these technologies.
01:11:02.720 --> 01:11:42.960
The other side of that um that uh two-edged sword is what I'm hearing is that the church is concerned, that the main narrative, you know, the doctrine, the policies, the you know, the main the guidelines, there are these these uh guide rails that you're talking about, the church is trying to wrestle with how does that you know hastening the work and the need to move forward and use these technologies, how do they keep that within within the bounds, within those parameters, that it's safe and not you know uh leading people in a direction that there's uh information that is true uh but not useful to Elder Packer's uh you know famous uh comments there.
01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:54.079
So they're the two main uh what I heard at least, there's probably others, but two main uh areas of thinking of concern.
01:11:54.399 --> 01:12:00.239
How do they use uh this AI technology to advance, accelerate the missionary effort and the work, etc.?
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:02.560
That makes sense, you know, developing that.
01:12:02.720 --> 01:12:16.239
But again, how do they do it within that um that uh well the use the right word, the guardrails, that people are not going off and finding stuff that is either is false or is true but not helpful.
01:12:16.399 --> 01:12:19.119
So interesting to see where the church is going on that.
01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:20.560
All right.
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:24.000
Well, I think this has been a fascinating discussion.
01:12:24.159 --> 01:12:26.560
Uh I thank you for for bringing it up.
01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:31.680
Uh this is not something that was on my radar, and I think it's something that is worth discussing.
01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:45.600
And I think that the church, you know, the church, I I I used to say that the church was in the middle of a uh a radical realignment of the missionary program without even realizing it.
01:12:45.920 --> 01:12:49.359
And I think the church is beginning to realize it.
01:12:49.680 --> 01:12:59.359
And we're seeing missionaries now sort of focusing more on online efforts rather than uh in the kind of tracting waste of time that we did.
01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:02.399
And the church is making that shift.
01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:40.560
The church is sort of learning how to do that and is developing the tools to do that effectively, and I think that's entirely appropriate, and I think that's entirely positive, and I think there's much positive to be taken from Elder Rasban's remarks here, but I also think it would be far more positive if we could have the hard conversations, because we're not having hard conversations about the challenges of retention, the challenges of new member baptisms in the developed world, not just the developing world.
01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:49.359
And I don't think we're doing anybody any favors with the kind of sleight of hand that that we see in these remarks, because I I think they're defensible.
01:13:49.439 --> 01:14:07.600
I don't think he's you know just out there lying, but I do think that uh there is more uh there are hard conversations that he is avoiding with how he has phrased all of that, if that makes any sense.
01:14:07.840 --> 01:14:10.399
So uh, but I very much appreciate this discussion.
01:14:10.560 --> 01:14:12.640
Do you have any final words before we close?
01:14:12.960 --> 01:14:15.680
No, I just really enjoyed having this personal time with you.
01:14:15.760 --> 01:14:16.479
I've missed it.
01:14:16.640 --> 01:14:20.239
And I really, I really have, and I just I I always learn so much from you.
01:14:20.399 --> 01:14:23.520
I'm very grateful for our friendship, our relationship.
01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:26.239
I'm so grateful that we've created this podcast.
01:14:26.479 --> 01:14:28.399
Our goal is to help people learn.
01:14:28.479 --> 01:14:30.319
There's so many things that I get from this.
01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:34.880
I'm so grateful, and I've I've enjoyed this uh one-to-one time with you for sure.
01:14:35.199 --> 01:14:37.439
Likewise, sir, this has been a delight.
01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:39.520
It's it really has been a lot of fun.
01:14:39.680 --> 01:14:44.000
So so with that, we uh want to thank everybody who is listening.
01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:45.760
Uh, we appreciate you listening.
01:14:45.840 --> 01:14:47.760
We appreciate your participation.
01:14:47.920 --> 01:14:52.239
Uh we have a very should we announce who our very special guest is coming up this next?
01:14:52.720 --> 01:14:53.680
You must announce it.
01:14:53.760 --> 01:14:54.720
Go ahead.
01:14:55.119 --> 01:15:01.199
Uh how many of you have heard of uh a guy named Jacob Hansen?
01:15:02.239 --> 01:15:06.640
Uh Jacob Hansen will be joining us in our live stream.
01:15:06.960 --> 01:15:14.800
I promise you that uh it's going to be a positive discussion, and uh we have welcomed him on.
01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:24.079
He has uh accepted the invitation, and I think what we will be talking about will in fact be positive.
01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:26.800
And so I'm kind of looking forward to this.
01:15:26.960 --> 01:15:30.319
Ian, this is this is gonna be your first time, at least online.
01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:33.359
You've had several conversations with Jacob offline.
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:38.000
Uh, but what do you predict for the Jacob Hansen live stream this Tuesday?
01:15:38.319 --> 01:15:49.520
I predict that uh we're gonna experience something that perhaps we haven't experienced before between uh Jim and Jacob because I need help on something.
01:15:49.840 --> 01:15:56.479
There's a particular area of interest and subject that I need help in, and I'll I can say it right now.
01:15:56.640 --> 01:16:06.720
I need help to convince 17,000 evangelical Christians who claim or allege that the Mormon church is not Christian.
01:16:07.119 --> 01:16:08.479
I object to that.
01:16:08.640 --> 01:16:10.159
I feel very strongly about that.
01:16:10.319 --> 01:16:16.239
I feel strongly that the church mostly is Christian, that the members are mostly Christian.
01:16:16.479 --> 01:16:19.199
There's no denying that from my perspective.
01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:39.680
And uh I want to have this conversation with you and Jacob to help me prepare a response to those allegations, those claims that the church is not Christian because I believe firmly it is and not the church, but where the church is um doing the right things and when it is fundamentally Christian, then I think that's worth defending.
01:16:39.760 --> 01:16:53.680
And I want to um call upon the great wisdom of you both and the insight and a lively debate, uh conversation to see how you both can help me um uh respond to those allegations.
01:16:53.840 --> 01:16:59.920
So I think this is uh, you know, we have two remarkable intelligent people, yourself and Jacob coming on here.
01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:02.319
I have enormous respect for your for you both.
01:17:02.479 --> 01:17:04.960
I don't know Jacob so well, but I've listened to him.
01:17:05.199 --> 01:17:16.399
I think he's a very smart guy in in so many ways, and I'm looking forward to this conversation and and and sure we'll cover other topics where there might be some uh difference of views, and that's fine as well.
01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:24.720
So, yeah, that's that's the you know, one of the main items that we want to talk about is you know, is the Mormon Church a Christian church?
01:17:24.800 --> 01:17:26.800
And what does Jim Bennett think to that?
01:17:26.960 --> 01:17:29.039
And what does Jacob Hansen think to that?
01:17:29.119 --> 01:17:31.600
And I can't wait to get your uh your input on that.
01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:32.479
All right.
01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:41.119
I I was gonna just leave them wanting more, but uh you you've outlined the whole the whole thing, and the which is fine.
01:17:41.199 --> 01:17:57.119
Uh so the tease that I'm going to leave you wanting more is that I said to Ian, and I think this is probably true, uh, in the conversation on Tuesday, I may very well end up being the most apostate person in the discussion.
01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:03.840
And I will not tell you why, but uh I'll leave that as the sort of tantalizing thing.
01:18:03.920 --> 01:18:05.119
But you uh you're absolutely right.
01:18:05.199 --> 01:18:10.560
Everybody thinks that I I just wake up in the middle of the night screaming at Jacob Hansen.
01:18:10.960 --> 01:18:23.119
Uh Jacob is, in my mind, one of the most effective defenders of the faith when dealing with people outside the faith.
01:18:23.359 --> 01:18:30.720
I take issue with a lot of the things he's done when he attacks people in the church, and that's where he and I have crossed swords.
01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:44.880
But you know, he went on Alex O'Connor and held his own with this remarkable atheist scholar in a way that I just think I don't know if there's anybody else in the church who could have done better than he did on that occasion.
01:18:44.960 --> 01:18:48.079
So so uh please join us on Tuesday.
01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:54.560
It's gonna be fun, it's gonna be exciting, uh uh, but it's also going to be good natured.
01:18:54.720 --> 01:19:01.119
If you're if you're coming to see uh Jim Bennett lose his stack at Jacob Hansen, I think you'll probably be disappointed.
01:19:01.359 --> 01:19:03.520
Anyway, thank you all very much.
01:19:03.600 --> 01:19:08.000
Uh appreciate this time with all of you, appreciate, of course, this time with you again.
01:19:08.159 --> 01:19:15.039
And we will look forward next time to uh visiting with you again on the next episode of Inside Out.
01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:16.000
Thank you very much.
01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:17.840
Thank you, Jim.