Temple Changes

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett.
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I am here as always with Ian Wilkes.
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Hello, Ian.
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Hello, Jim.
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So we're going to talk about temple ordinances today.
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And that's always a fraught topic because people are really nervous about talking about the temple in ways that I think are unjustified.
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In the temple, we make covenants and promises not to reveal very specific certain things.
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And it's a very small part of what happens in the temple.
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And from my perspective, I think it's important that we spend more time talking about what happens and i am grateful to see that the church to some degree agrees with me because the church has become increasingly open about what goes on in the temple a few years ago they posted a video that showed temple clothing with the hat and the apron and all that stuff also show temple garments they don't show anybody wearing either of those things But they do show you what the clothing is, and then they talk about the fact that it's a ritual reenactment of the creation story and all of that kind of thing.
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And I thought, these are things that we would never have been allowed to talk about when we were missionaries 30, 35 years ago.
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And it's encouraging to see greater transparency.
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So I decided I wanted to go through a temple session and see all of the new changes that are being talked about all over the place.
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And most of what they are saying online is true, is accurate.
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The thing that I really like the most is the fact that we no longer have to worry about loud laughter.
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You know, at one point there was a charge to avoid all light-mindedness, loud laughter, evil speaking of the Lord's anointed, the taking of the name of God in vain, and every other unholy and impure practice.
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That was the language back from the day, and now it's light-mindedness, unworthy, or either unworthy, I can't remember if it's unworthy or unholy, thoughts and actions.
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And that substituted for loud laughter.
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And I think that's great because no one could ever tell me what that loud laughter prohibition was.
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Because I'm a very loud guy.
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You may have noticed that.
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And I laugh loudly, just naturally.
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And I've never felt that there was anything remotely sinful about that.
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And I remember having conversations with my father right after the session and said, well, what does that mean?
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Is there a decibel level?
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At what point have I reached sin?
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And he said, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what it means.
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And I said, okay, well, what does it mean?
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Oh, well, it's talking about people who are drunk.
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And I thought, okay.
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And I sort of hung on to that, but I've since had conversations with a number of other people about it, and nobody can give me a straight answer.
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Because they all insist, no, it doesn't really mean loud laughter, it means...
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mockery of sacred things.
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It means, I mean, I've heard so many different explanations and none of them make a lot of sense.
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And now it's gone.
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I welcome the changes.
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I think they're positive for the most part.
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We can get into the details on them.
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I am troubled somewhat by our inability to confront what changes mean.
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Because the emphasis, again, when I went through at the beginning, there's about a 10-minute introduction where they sort of outline, they outline all the covenants you're going to make, although they don't really outline them.
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They just list them.
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They say you're going to covenant to the law of the gospel and the law of sacrifice.
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And if you don't know what those are, you're lost.
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But by the time you get to the actual covenant, before the covenant, they actually detail what they all mean, which is nice.
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Again, And from what I can tell, they have put these covenants in the general handbook of instructions so that you can read them before you go in.
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And I think that that needs to be essential because in the past they've just been put on the spot.
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There they are and all of this kind of thing.
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But the broader question for me is, okay, I went through the temple.
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You went through the temple in the mid to late 80s.
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when the temple ceremony was markedly different, and we made covenants, and some of them were worded very differently.
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It's not as big a deal for the men as it is for the women, because at the time, the women covenanted to obey their husbands.
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And then that was changed to, they covenanted to obey the law of the Lord and hearken unto their husbands.
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And now that's God.
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And now they covenant directly with God the same way the men do at the same time, although they've slipped in language in other covenants.
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So now the sealing covenant, for instance, includes a phrase that says the men will preside.
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It was absent when I was sealed.
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So I look at this and I go, well, all they've done is really sort of shuffle all of this around.
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But they don't really want to say, okay, men and women are equal completely, and our covenantal relationship with God is identical.
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And I've read things from women saying, so which covenant am I bound to?
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Am I bound to the one that's there now?
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Am I bound to the one that I went through before?
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And I think of, okay, the things that were removed from the temple, the very disturbing penalties, I covenanted never to reveal those.
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It gets very, very confusing.
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And I'm thinking probably your perspective as someone who has left is markedly different.
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I bet I look a little bit silly to you in terms of how I'm thinking about
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this.
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No, not at all.
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Not at all.
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Just listening intently to what you say there, Jim, you were talking earlier, so many things that you said there that were discussing, what do the changes mean?
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I think it goes beyond that.
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What did the original principles and doctrines and penalties and tokens, what did they mean?
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What did they mean before these changes?
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I had so many questions about what am I getting into?
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What does that actually mean?
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We take these covenants extremely seriously.
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They implement every aspect of the membership life in a very personal, in a very significant way.
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And so what are we agreeing to?
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What are we committing to?
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And the different versions and variations of the endowment, which have changed significantly, I think, from the very beginning, when Joe Smith was learning about the endowment through his Freemasonry experience.
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And we talked a bit about that.
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And there's another conversation there.
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There's a very interesting conversation there.
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How is the...
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the endowment and the rituals, how they've evolved over time and the change and watered down, etc.
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And to your point, does the pre-1990 temple ritual endowment, does that Is that the prevailing version that we need to subscribe to?
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Does this trump the element?
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What do you commit to?
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It's very confusing.
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So me going through the temple for the first time in the late 80s was very confusing.
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Lots of questions.
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You couldn't talk about them outside the temple.
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I was given...
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Let me go back.
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During the endowment session, when he talked about loud laughter, and I have a bit of a confession here, a mate of mine who was also a convert to the church...
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Remember, our backgrounds were different.
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I was not...
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versed in all the rules and regulations that you were growing up.
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I wasn't as conditioned.
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I was this rough and ready working class council state 20-year-old, unfamiliar with any of this, going through it the first time.
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And when they talked about loud laughter, a mate of mine actually burst out laughing quite loud at that very point.
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Because, you know, I can be quite loud and I can be, you know, I like to laugh out loud.
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And we got these looks from almost everyone at the time, the frowning upon us, the disapproving of our loud laughter.
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None of it made sense to me.
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And so for many years, and I was a veil worker as well for a number of years, and I had questions.
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I'm just thinking about this.
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I went to the temple.
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I taught temple preparation class, which really didn't prepare people to go to the temple.
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Not at all.
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When you go on the Temple Prep training class, I don't know if you're aware that the teachers get training, right?
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So the teachers are trained to deliver this, I think it's a six-week program of Temple Prep.
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And you give an instruction of what you can and what you can't talk about.
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And I think the most important things that you need to talk about and understand is what you're committing to.
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They're left, they're not, discussed, and you can't talk about those in the lesson.
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You couldn't talk about garments.
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You see garments now on the church website.
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You couldn't talk about them, let alone show an image of them, right?
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So people were not prepared.
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And then going forward, when I was a veil worker in the temple, and I would ask questions of the temple presidents, the temple counselors, some of the people who have been going there for many years, no questions what about this token what about this penalty why in you know in the pre-1990 did we have to um which really disturbed me by the way and i had nightmares little nightmares where i had to slit my throat slit my bowels open to simulate that was absolutely awful for me it was just it just filled me with fear not the spirit of god it it was just awful and i dare not speak or even think um Anything that was going into the temple at that time.
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And so when I was having these conversations with people who were very seasoned in temple activity for decades, a lot of the questions they couldn't answer.
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And they said, Ian, just rely on faith.
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If you're struggling with it, pray about it.
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The answer is, all will be revealed.
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Further light and knowledge will be revealed, just like it was to Joseph Smith, etc.
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And so I got very few answers, even in the temple, even in the celestial room.
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That is the only place I think you can talk about these things.
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The church says that it's sacred, not secret.
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I disagree.
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I think it is secret.
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You are specifically told, instructed, directed not to talk about these things under literal pain of death.
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Bad things will happen to you if you talk about these things outside the temple, and there's only a time and a certain place, a certain time that these things can be discussed.
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And so the whole experience for me, and I'm sure many others, is complex.
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What does it mean?
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What do these changes mean?
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Do they prevail now?
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and certainly would like to get into some of the changes.
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And then the other thing about the loud laughter that you kind of opened this conversation to, I do know that from my research, my studies, that Joseph Smith himself acknowledged that he was a frivolous person and he can be quite boisterous and aligned to loud laughter and funny.
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He'd wrestle.
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He'd wrestle, he'd be noisy.
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And I think he said that I think he said that about himself at times in a number of different sources.
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And I found that great because I thought that was, you know, people said, you know, they'll have laughter.
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Well, Joe Smith was boisterous.
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He was frivolous.
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He was playful is the word, I think.
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And I am like that.
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And I've been like that.
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And I found that to be very human and very normal.
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And so laughter, you know, what did that mean?
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I had so many questions about that and all that laughter.
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And I got so many answers, you know, from different people from people you know, very strict member in Scotland that you can't, even if you smile too much, that's considered to be disrespectful, right through to, you know, oh, you can laugh loud as long as you're not having any bad thoughts about laughing.
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There's a piece in the temple, I'm not sure if it's still there, because I've not been there for a while, but I've been in the temple on a few occasions where he talks about doing the prayer circle, and anyone with any bad feeling towards anyone in the circle should leave the circle.
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And I've seen three times or four times where someone's actually left.
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And then been advised or told in the past that if you're laughing loud about someone's downfall or laughing about someone personally that is a sin so if someone that you don't like you're laughing about them or someone falls down in the street it looks funny laughing about that that's not God doesn't approve of that and so it's confusing and what does the you know I go back to what I said what do the original principles doctrines tokens, rituals mean, I think that historical context is really important to understand where this whole thing came from.
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And what were those fundamental things taught in the early stages?
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Secondly, what are the different doctrines, principles, and rituals were taught through the evolution of the temple, you know, going right up until 1990, and then the changes that have been made since.
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So that historical context context of the evolutionary uh changes with the temple experience because it it's so important jimmy people go to the temple every day and they get up in the morning at five o'clock in the morning right i've done it myself and then they'll have a whole week-long session at the temple you know if in the uk you'll go down to london to the uh at the time before preston was built keep travel to london as i did for a week and you'd be up super early.
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You go through the whole thing every day for a week.
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And it had such a profound impact on your time, on your life, on every decision.
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It was filtered through the temple, covenants, etc.
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What did all that mean?
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It was never explained to me as a temple prep teacher.
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Even now, 35 years in the church, I'm not in it anymore, but since I was 16, almost 40 years, I still don't understand a lot about the temple.
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If I was still active and still going, I can guarantee that I would have still many of the same questions now and more questions now with the changes that I've made with very few answers that I've sought and never really
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obtained.
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And when you talk about the history of the temple, I've had these discussions and I've looked into this a little bit.
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Initially, the temple ceremony was essentially a day-long experience.
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beginning with washings and anointings, where they didn't bother.
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Not only did you not wear garments or anything else, they didn't bother with the shield.
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The washings and anointings initially were completely naked.
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And you would go through this, and there was a preacher that came out.
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This was still in the pre-1990 version that we went to.
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There was a preacher that would come out, and Satan would hire him to preach to the people, and he would you know, recite sectarian creeds.
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Do you believe in a God who sits on the top of a topless throne, whose circumference is everywhere, but his radius is nowhere?
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You know, and all this kind of thing.
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And then he demands to be paid.
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My father says that what he went through, the preacher used to lead the entire congregation in a sectarian hymn.
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And dad could even sing the hymn.
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It wasn't a hymn that's in the hymn book.
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It wasn't a Mormon hymn.
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It was a Protestant hymn.
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Oh, and also the penalties.
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By the time we went through, the description of the penalties had been removed.
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We were told the penalties just indicated various ways in which life may be taken.
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Whereas the original penalties used the Masonic language that talked about, you know, may my bowels gush out and be...
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eaten by the birds of the field and all kinds of just gruesome, gruesome imagery.
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That had gone by the time I went through.
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I went through in 1987.
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And so we were on our missions.
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I came back and it was changed shortly after I came back because I got back in September of 89.
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It was changed.
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I'm not sure what the month was, but it was changed in 1990.
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And they removed the penalties altogether.
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So the temple ceremonies have gotten shorter.
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They've gotten more focused.
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Harold B.
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Lee apparently complained at one point when they were shortening.
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He says this is supposed to be a long, solemn ceremony.
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That the length and the boredom were features to him.
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And so you look at it more and more and more, and you just kind of...
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Yeah, I mean, the questions, I mean, I used to sort of niggle over word choices.
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You know, there's something really significant about the fact that Satan doesn't say, I'm doing that which I have done in other worlds, but he gives them the fruit.
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He says that which has been done, you know.
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And you look for sort of a secret meaning in all these words and all these phrases.
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And what really hit me this time when I went through yesterday was, That's a silly exercise because those words are completely subject to change.
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And so many of them were.
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I mean, lots of them were.
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They've done things like, it used to be they would say, you know, Jehovah, have you done all these things?
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Yes, I've done them, Elohim.
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Oh, it is well, which doesn't grammatically make any sense.
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And I remember as a grammar Nazi saying, thinking, that doesn't work.
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Well, maybe there's just some reason for it.
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Maybe God's teaching me.
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And now they say it is good, which is the grammatically correct thing to say.
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Or they used to say, after you make your covenant, they would say, that will do.
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Now they say, thank you.
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I mean, that doesn't change any kind of doctrine or anything.
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So there were changes, a few of the changes that I thought were interesting.
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When I went through, the first time I went through, I went through the Salt Lake Temple live session.
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So you have these old actors who are mumbling their lines and hard to hear.
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And Satan comes out and he's dressed up in this regalia that includes a purple apron.
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And the line was, what is that apron you have on?
00:19:52.396 --> 00:19:55.362
He said, it is an emblem of my power and priesthoods.
00:19:56.001 --> 00:19:56.663
Priesthoods?
00:19:57.124 --> 00:19:58.286
Yes, priesthoods.
00:19:59.425 --> 00:20:10.219
But after 1990, they took out the priesthoods, yes, priesthoods part, but they still made reference to the apron, but they never showed it.
00:20:11.099 --> 00:20:12.902
I remember looking, like, well, I can't see the apron.
00:20:12.942 --> 00:20:16.906
It doesn't look like the one I saw in 1987 in the Salt Lake Temple.
00:20:17.488 --> 00:20:18.648
But they made reference to it.
00:20:18.669 --> 00:20:20.050
Well, that reference is gone now.
00:20:20.751 --> 00:20:24.016
And the other thing, I was reading an article from somebody who was complaining.
00:20:24.076 --> 00:20:32.565
He says, look, it's always terrible because the first thing that Adam and Eve do after they fall is is they obey Satan's instructions to make an apron.
00:20:33.445 --> 00:20:35.528
You know, Satan says, see, you are naked.
00:20:36.088 --> 00:20:37.549
Father will see your nakedness.
00:20:38.171 --> 00:20:40.432
Find you fig leaves and make you aprons.
00:20:40.593 --> 00:20:41.433
Quick, hide.
00:20:42.394 --> 00:20:43.556
Okay, they've changed that.
00:20:44.497 --> 00:20:57.210
So Satan says you're naked, and they panic, and then they figure out for themselves that they should build aprons, or whatever it is.
00:20:58.082 --> 00:21:16.009
And for people who, as I listened to those kinds of changes, I thought people who take the temple ceremony literally, like they assume that this is a journalistic recounting of a historical event, that's got to drive them crazy.
00:21:16.950 --> 00:21:21.958
Because if this was a historical event, then either Satan told him to make aprons or he didn't.
00:21:22.945 --> 00:21:26.270
And the fact that we've changed it in the ceremony wouldn't have changed the history.
00:21:26.851 --> 00:21:29.575
I no longer see it as anything but symbolism.
00:21:30.096 --> 00:21:38.647
And they use a whole bunch of, they interject a lot of this is symbolic, this is symbolic throughout the ceremony.
00:21:39.409 --> 00:21:47.118
You know, the fact that it is so malleable and so subject to change that even the covenants themselves can be changed.
00:21:47.159 --> 00:21:49.342
The language of the covenants has changed.
00:21:49.742 --> 00:21:52.046
They changed the language of the marriage covenant.
00:21:52.226 --> 00:21:53.988
Not the merit of chastity covenant.
00:21:54.769 --> 00:21:59.253
Used to be they would talk about to your husband or wife to whom you are legally or lawfully wedded.
00:22:00.075 --> 00:22:02.136
They don't use the words husband and wife anymore.
00:22:02.217 --> 00:22:04.720
I don't remember specifically what the exact wording is.
00:22:04.759 --> 00:22:08.663
I've given up trying to crack the code.
00:22:09.384 --> 00:22:16.011
I've given up trying to find the sort of secret nuggets of wisdom that are hidden in this clunky language.
00:22:17.114 --> 00:22:18.234
Because the language is clunky.
00:22:18.275 --> 00:22:20.718
It's sort of this 18th century, 19th century...
00:22:21.442 --> 00:22:22.703
You know, oh, you will not.
00:22:22.844 --> 00:22:23.704
Well, we shall see.
00:22:23.724 --> 00:22:25.527
I mean, nobody talks that way.
00:22:26.307 --> 00:22:28.230
But maybe they did in the 19th century.
00:22:29.152 --> 00:22:31.555
And I used to think there was some kind of significance in that, too.
00:22:32.056 --> 00:22:35.539
But so that becomes, all right, I'm going to take the temple on my own terms.
00:22:36.361 --> 00:22:42.849
I'm going to go in, and what I can find that is valuable, I am going to take it and hold it to my heart, and it's going to be part of me.
00:22:42.890 --> 00:22:47.576
And anything that I don't find valuable, no thanks.
00:22:48.037 --> 00:22:49.117
I'm just not interested.
00:22:49.314 --> 00:22:54.618
And I don't see how you can do it any other way, given the kinds of changes.
00:22:54.719 --> 00:23:01.526
Because a lot of misogynist guys talk about the fact that, look, you need to know, women, you really are supposed to...
00:23:02.365 --> 00:23:03.567
We're the guys in charge.
00:23:04.228 --> 00:23:09.292
Even as the temple softens and softens and softens that language without really fully getting rid of it.
00:23:10.054 --> 00:23:15.818
If you have that kind of an absolutist view of the temple, I think it's nothing but disappointment.
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:18.000
And I think this...
00:23:18.753 --> 00:23:31.634
It doesn't, but it should convince members of the church that all of us are in this together, all of us are learning together, and all of us make mistakes together.
00:23:32.174 --> 00:23:39.887
And that includes all the way up to the highest levels of the church, that these men are doing the best they can to lead and guide this church.
00:23:41.068 --> 00:23:43.673
But if they never make mistakes, then...
00:23:44.162 --> 00:23:45.983
Why has the temple ceremony changed?
00:23:46.464 --> 00:23:54.834
I mean, if it was perfect when Joseph Smith revealed it, then it should never have changed, and it's changed significantly over time.
00:23:55.875 --> 00:23:56.336
It has, yeah.
00:23:57.037 --> 00:24:06.606
We're talking about, undoubtedly, the most important aspect of a committed, devoted member's life.
00:24:06.787 --> 00:24:15.037
I've lost count how many times President Nelson and others have talked about keep on the covenant path.
00:24:17.060 --> 00:24:21.909
He's talking about the covenants, but he's also talking about the temple covenants.
00:24:23.711 --> 00:24:57.876
There's endless talks, references over every generation from the very beginning when the church was organized to going to the temple, understanding the covenants, keeping the covenants, etc., etc., So because it's so important, so significant in a committed member's life, every word in that temple experience, from washing the anointings to the wedding ceremonies, sealings, endowment, et cetera, is very, very important.
00:24:58.738 --> 00:25:11.876
You know, when you're talking about changes in the language of Satan and Adam and Eve, you know, go get aprons, see naked, run, hide, I got something important from that.
00:25:11.896 --> 00:25:13.000
I got...
00:25:13.361 --> 00:25:14.884
First of all, that actually happened.
00:25:14.904 --> 00:25:18.394
I took it literally, you know, because I was committed.
00:25:18.595 --> 00:25:21.303
Secondly, there was a reason why Satan said that.
00:25:21.583 --> 00:25:23.528
You know, he was now putting...
00:25:24.289 --> 00:25:26.653
you know, some responsibility to Adam and Eve.
00:25:26.773 --> 00:25:27.576
The onus was on them.
00:25:27.615 --> 00:25:32.604
There's some pressure on them to, you know, to go deal with the nakedness.
00:25:32.944 --> 00:25:34.406
They just learned that they were naked.
00:25:34.426 --> 00:25:37.512
They were told that they were naked, and that was a bad thing, right?
00:25:37.752 --> 00:25:39.455
You're naked, bad, go get aprons.
00:25:39.496 --> 00:25:41.920
They didn't know that before Satan had told them.
00:25:42.361 --> 00:25:47.549
So Satan plays a very distinct role in the covenant system.
00:25:47.809 --> 00:26:17.819
teaching um elements of the temple experience so those words are very very important so if they remove that um does that to your point in the very beginning what does that mean what does these you said at the beginning what does these changes mean i think people will be having questions they'll be wrestling with this and they have questions they don't get them get the answers they have to go back to the temple i guess and and then the the other i had a question for you uh you talked about um changes to the five ordinances, or one of the ordinances of chastity.
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.345
So can you be more specific on the changes to the law of chastity?
00:26:22.506 --> 00:26:33.398
And can you also tell us what changes, if any, have been made to the law of obedience, law of sacrifice, law of the gospel, and the law of consecration?
00:26:33.459 --> 00:26:36.442
Is there any other changes in relation to those?
00:26:37.624 --> 00:26:39.526
Well, I'd have to go back and find the wording.
00:26:40.034 --> 00:26:42.678
Because I was struck by the wording of the law of chastity.
00:26:42.778 --> 00:26:48.768
I don't think it changes the substance of it, but it used to be.
00:26:48.827 --> 00:27:03.089
I just remember when I first went through, the wording was the law of chastity is that a man or woman shall have no sexual intercourse, which seemed to be a really clinical, harsh word.
00:27:03.109 --> 00:27:04.553
I think that's correct.
00:27:04.853 --> 00:27:05.374
Yeah.
00:27:05.698 --> 00:27:10.546
No sexual intercourse except with their husbands to whom they are legally and lawfully wed.
00:27:11.467 --> 00:27:18.017
In 1990, that was changed to no sexual relations, which is a gentler euphemism.
00:27:18.798 --> 00:27:21.983
Although I've heard some people say, well, that stuck us intercourse.
00:27:22.183 --> 00:27:24.406
It meant that you could do everything up to intercourse.
00:27:24.968 --> 00:27:25.568
You were fine.
00:27:25.608 --> 00:27:27.531
But the minute you...
00:27:29.122 --> 00:27:36.313
This is how seriously people take the temple and how much they dissect and parse the language of the temple.
00:27:36.993 --> 00:27:45.166
So even that change, I think that change was just trying to use a softer, gentler word for the same thing.
00:27:45.207 --> 00:27:54.721
And then in 2019, when they changed the temple to change the covenants for the woman...
00:27:55.905 --> 00:28:00.832
and have her covenant directly with God rather than covenant to her husband.
00:28:03.134 --> 00:28:20.335
They changed the chastity covenant to say, between husband and wife, according to God's law, which I took to mean, so don't think that this is for gay marriage, you jerks, which seemed to be the message.
00:28:21.256 --> 00:28:39.440
So, so, So the language this time was, it's that the sons of God or the daughters of God will have no sexual relations with anyone except to those to whom they are legally and lawfully wedded, according to God's law.
00:28:40.141 --> 00:28:45.346
So that isn't different, really, but the husband and wife words aren't there.
00:28:46.586 --> 00:28:51.031
And so I thought, now why did they feel like they needed to do that?
00:28:51.051 --> 00:28:57.222
And If I take them at face value, because they say at the beginning, the covenants haven't changed.
00:28:57.884 --> 00:28:59.325
All this is just procedure.
00:28:59.365 --> 00:29:00.467
The covenants haven't changed.
00:29:01.007 --> 00:29:04.270
Well, then why are you changing the language of them if they haven't changed?
00:29:04.351 --> 00:29:05.313
What was wrong with them?
00:29:05.633 --> 00:29:06.413
So it's interesting.
00:29:06.473 --> 00:29:08.375
At the beginning, they list the covenants.
00:29:09.217 --> 00:29:21.332
So there's a 10-minute introduction that has this sort of soft music playing behind it, has lots of pictures of Jesus, very similar to the pictures you'll see in any chapel.
00:29:21.511 --> 00:29:27.990
There aren't any kind of new and exciting pictures, although there were some I don't know that I'd seen before and some that I know I had seen before.
00:29:28.510 --> 00:29:29.432
Is Jesus white?
00:29:30.633 --> 00:29:33.695
Jesus is, well, Jesus is a BYU football player.
00:29:34.096 --> 00:29:35.478
Of course, yeah.
00:29:36.219 --> 00:29:40.343
So anyway, no, he can't be a BYU football player because he's still got a beard.
00:29:41.123 --> 00:29:48.611
But anyway, so they say in the list, they say you'll be asked to make five covenants.
00:29:49.791 --> 00:29:51.733
And they list them, and they say, and they are...
00:29:52.673 --> 00:30:00.183
The law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel, the law of chastity, and the law of consecration.
00:30:01.486 --> 00:30:07.834
Now, if I haven't had any prep beyond that, I don't know what any of those things means.
00:30:08.976 --> 00:30:14.683
And in fact, when you get to them in the old ceremony, you still didn't know what they meant.
00:30:14.703 --> 00:30:20.371
They would say, you covenant to live the law of obediences as described in the book of Doctrine and Covenants.
00:30:21.772 --> 00:30:22.314
But that was it.
00:30:23.201 --> 00:30:24.663
Okay, yeah, sure I do.
00:30:25.223 --> 00:30:38.159
Well, it's interesting because when you get to that point in the ceremony now, they say, do you covenant to live the law of obedience, which is, and then they get very specific as to what it means.
00:30:38.239 --> 00:30:39.660
And I can't remember those specifics.
00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:44.885
They were all very reasonable from what I heard and consistent with what I'd always understood it to mean.
00:30:45.727 --> 00:30:47.608
So they do enumerate them there.
00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:56.568
So the benefit is that people can make a more informed choice as to whether or not they're going to make these covenants.
00:30:57.670 --> 00:31:03.859
At the same time, that's still a very difficult time to back out.
00:31:04.740 --> 00:31:07.845
You see that list of five covenants and you go, I don't know.
00:31:09.288 --> 00:31:10.589
So you stand up and leave.
00:31:10.609 --> 00:31:26.239
I have a member of my family, an extended family, who did that and who has not been back to the temple, who got through it and got to the point Well, I'm going to reveal a gender here because she had to veil her face.
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:28.342
And she didn't want to veil her face.
00:31:28.442 --> 00:31:29.503
And this is wrong.
00:31:29.544 --> 00:31:30.384
This feels terrible.
00:31:30.464 --> 00:31:30.986
I'm going to leave.
00:31:31.125 --> 00:31:33.048
And she left before completing the endowment.
00:31:33.689 --> 00:31:35.991
That's the only case of that I've ever heard of.
00:31:36.092 --> 00:31:36.973
I've never seen it.
00:31:37.674 --> 00:31:38.635
I think it's very rare.
00:31:38.655 --> 00:31:44.242
And I think when you go through for the first time, you are under so much pressure.
00:31:44.262 --> 00:31:52.253
I really feel like temple prep needs to include specific discussion of those covenants at length, in depth.
00:31:52.609 --> 00:32:12.941
All right, so as you go through this new version, at various times in the ceremony, all of the action sort of comes to a halt, and they discuss how this has to do with the life of Jesus, and how Jesus wants us to do this, and a picture of Jesus comes up, and all this kind of thing.
00:32:12.980 --> 00:32:19.109
So the word covenant is used a whole lot more now than it was before.
00:32:19.938 --> 00:32:29.167
For instance, when Peter, James, and John come to visit Adam and Eve for the first time and they say, have you any tokens or signs?
00:32:29.188 --> 00:32:30.509
Satan says, have you any money?
00:32:31.410 --> 00:32:37.477
Well, now they say, have you been true to the covenant that you made in the Garden of Eden?
00:32:38.637 --> 00:32:39.459
Which is interesting.
00:32:39.638 --> 00:32:46.365
I mean, the whole idea of the covenant path, they never used the term covenant path, thankfully, because that term drives me crazy.
00:32:47.425 --> 00:32:49.088
But everything's about covenant.
00:32:49.108 --> 00:32:51.632
I mean, you can see Russell M.
00:32:51.692 --> 00:32:53.654
Nelson's fingerprints all over this.
00:32:53.675 --> 00:33:01.988
I mean, this is very clearly Russell Nelson's interpretation of what the endowment should be, which is fine.
00:33:02.808 --> 00:33:08.758
But it's just very, very obvious that he had a hand in this.
00:33:08.979 --> 00:33:11.982
I would not be surprised if a lot of this was written by him.
00:33:12.042 --> 00:33:16.089
So the emphasis is on covenants and obedience.
00:33:16.961 --> 00:33:19.045
And obedience and obedience and obedience.
00:33:19.905 --> 00:33:25.534
And if you don't walk up to every single one of these covenants, you'll be in Satan's power.
00:33:25.693 --> 00:33:30.240
And you need to obey, you need to obey, you need to obey.
00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:32.824
Oh, and by the way, here's Jesus.
00:33:33.806 --> 00:33:35.508
It doesn't feel like Jesus to me.
00:33:36.288 --> 00:33:45.182
Because the reason we have a Savior, the reason Jesus matters, is that we're not going to perfectly walk up to all of those covenants.
00:33:45.665 --> 00:33:46.767
We're going to make mistakes.
00:33:46.807 --> 00:33:47.708
We're going to screw up.
00:33:48.909 --> 00:33:56.135
And the message of the temple is when you do that, well, you're giving yourself over to Satan.
00:33:56.175 --> 00:33:58.317
And, oh, but here's Jesus.
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:02.643
It just didn't, it felt shoehorned.
00:34:02.682 --> 00:34:09.710
And the other thing, at one point, and this is, I think, the subject of an entire podcast all by itself.
00:34:10.429 --> 00:34:13.833
At one point, they quote the Book of Mormon Scripture about grace.
00:34:14.818 --> 00:34:26.195
I firmly believe that one of the biggest problems in the church now is that we refuse to acknowledge or accept or teach about or do anything to understand the concept of grace.
00:34:27.197 --> 00:34:29.981
And grace, to me, is at the heart of the atonement.
00:34:30.583 --> 00:34:32.284
We are saved by grace.
00:34:32.545 --> 00:34:34.728
We are not saved because we are righteous.
00:34:35.170 --> 00:34:37.253
We are saved because we are not righteous.
00:34:38.054 --> 00:34:43.001
We do not deserve to be saved, but Jesus saves us anyway.
00:34:43.746 --> 00:34:51.898
And that's the beauty and the glory of Christ and of the message, and that's the message that is all over the Book of Mormon.
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:59.668
But they choose the one verse in the Book of Mormon that says, it is by grace we are saved after all we can do.
00:35:01.132 --> 00:35:18.496
And it's used to say, okay, so in other words, work yourself to the bone, obey, obey, obey, obey, and then, you know, if you're good enough, then Jesus will take care of the last You know, you pay your$3,000 and Jesus will pay the last 50 cents.
00:35:19.757 --> 00:35:23.443
And there's a scholar by the name of Dan McClellan who used to work for the church.
00:35:23.483 --> 00:35:49.025
He wrote a paper who talked about the fact that whoever wrote that verse in the Book of Mormon, whether you believe it was Joseph Smith or whether you believe it was Nephi, whoever wrote it, it is very clear from the 19th century context of how those words are used that after all we can do does not mean what it is used to mean in this new temple ceremony.
00:35:49.206 --> 00:35:51.208
It means despite all we can do.
00:35:52.228 --> 00:35:56.954
Like at the end of the day, after all we can do, it's grace that saves us.
00:35:58.114 --> 00:36:10.748
You know, it's a phrase, and he shows several examples of how that phrase is used in other things Joseph Smith wrote and other things that were written in the 19th century, proving that that's exactly what that verse means.
00:36:11.288 --> 00:36:12.829
But we have taken it to mean grace.
00:36:13.634 --> 00:36:19.965
look, you earn your salvation, and Jesus sort of sprinkles a little grace on it, and all is well.
00:36:20.706 --> 00:36:28.039
And so that was my biggest problem with all of the Jesus insertions, is that this was obedience Jesus, this was not grace Jesus.
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:52.110
And the older I get, the more I realize how far I fall short, even as hard as I try, And I can either develop scrupulosity and hate myself and have the kind of guilt and shame that fueled my mission, or I can allow Christ's grace to work within me to help make me a better person.
00:36:53.012 --> 00:36:58.036
And that's the Jesus that I did not feel was represented here.
00:36:58.177 --> 00:37:00.559
I can't decide what actress Eve looks like.
00:37:00.699 --> 00:37:02.442
She looks like somebody very famous.
00:37:03.262 --> 00:37:05.545
And as soon as I see her, I'll be able to point it out.
00:37:06.018 --> 00:37:07.880
I thought that...
00:37:08.942 --> 00:37:09.362
What?
00:37:09.903 --> 00:37:11.445
Helen Mirren would play a really good...
00:37:11.585 --> 00:37:14.349
Oh, she's probably an old Eve then.
00:37:15.132 --> 00:37:16.293
She's an old Eve.
00:37:16.373 --> 00:37:17.135
She would be a whole...
00:37:18.135 --> 00:37:21.440
I always liked the British accent as the devil.
00:37:22.141 --> 00:37:24.606
You know, British accents...
00:37:25.387 --> 00:37:26.628
Did you have a British accent?
00:37:27.028 --> 00:37:29.532
Well, some of the devils, some of Satan's had British accents.
00:37:31.576 --> 00:37:32.657
Oh, they sounded British.
00:37:33.153 --> 00:37:33.974
I think one of them did.
00:37:34.215 --> 00:37:37.639
And I think the British accent can sound really evil.
00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:39.021
Eve, yeah.
00:37:39.402 --> 00:37:39.702
Yes.
00:37:40.523 --> 00:37:42.826
But you think this person's famous then?
00:37:43.025 --> 00:37:43.967
Eve is famous, I think.
00:37:44.407 --> 00:37:46.931
Well, she's not famous, but she looks like somebody famous.
00:37:47.110 --> 00:37:47.411
Okay.
00:37:47.711 --> 00:37:53.358
Adam looks like a combination of Tom Cruise and Brandon Flowers with a bad haircut.
00:37:53.780 --> 00:37:55.221
Okay.
00:37:55.240 --> 00:38:02.130
But what's weird, so they've gotten rid of the witness couple and they've gotten rid of any interaction.
00:38:02.402 --> 00:38:04.003
like any physical contact.
00:38:04.744 --> 00:38:13.076
So you see the signs and tokens on the screen, and you're not asked to make them until you get to the veil.
00:38:14.217 --> 00:38:14.398
That's
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:17.302
a big change.
00:38:17.382 --> 00:38:19.704
Well, that happened apparently during COVID.
00:38:19.784 --> 00:38:24.291
I hadn't been since COVID, so that did not happen in this most recent stage.
00:38:24.692 --> 00:38:28.297
Also, you stay seated the whole time.
00:38:28.336 --> 00:38:32.061
And I thought, are they just trying to make it easier for people to fall asleep?
00:38:32.514 --> 00:38:35.856
You don't have to stand up to make your covenants.
00:38:38.500 --> 00:38:40.260
The prayer circle is unchanged.
00:38:41.282 --> 00:38:58.898
What's weird is that Adam and Eve, you know, so it used to be that the movie stops and Adam says, these are true messengers, pay attention to what they have to say, and this lovely music swells, and then you get into everything else.
00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:01.202
Well, now...
00:39:01.889 --> 00:39:10.141
because there's no witness couple, it's Adam and Eve in temple clothing, and in an altar, and Peter, James, and John.
00:39:10.161 --> 00:39:29.606
It was interesting because the guy playing Peter is in the tabernacle choir, and they're in this sort of nondescript room, and they're doing all the temple covenants, and they're making all of the signs so you can see them, and that seemed just a little bit strange, but I don't know how else he would do it.
00:39:30.402 --> 00:39:34.728
I'd like to play Satan with a Sean Connery action.
00:39:34.789 --> 00:39:36.510
I'd like to say, Sean Connery.
00:39:36.530 --> 00:39:38.034
She, she, you are naked.
00:39:38.474 --> 00:39:41.719
Go get, quick, hide, run.
00:39:42.641 --> 00:39:44.443
Feel shaken, but not stirred.
00:39:44.884 --> 00:39:50.932
I think a Satan Sean Connery twist would be, I think people would be lining up to come to the temple.
00:39:51.753 --> 00:39:55.119
If you had a little bit of, I remember being in the Salt Lake Temple.
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:56.702
I've been there a few times, real quick here.
00:39:57.182 --> 00:39:58.985
Went through several times, pre-1990.
00:39:59.873 --> 00:40:10.679
And the funny thing, I burst out loud laughter, got looked upon as well by a few people, where Jesus Christ had forgotten his lines.
00:40:12.023 --> 00:40:14.949
There's a lot of senior folks who were acting it out.
00:40:15.266 --> 00:40:17.289
Literally, you know, it's a live endowment session.
00:40:17.971 --> 00:40:19.653
And Satan came to his rescue.
00:40:19.733 --> 00:40:24.023
And I thought that was really good of Satan that had come to help Jesus Christ.
00:40:24.063 --> 00:40:27.449
And I quit that, you know, Satan's not such a bad guy after all.
00:40:27.489 --> 00:40:29.652
But I found that absolutely hilarious.
00:40:29.713 --> 00:40:34.623
I kind of throw that in there because I find it, it was just so funny and prone to loud laughter.
00:40:34.702 --> 00:40:35.403
How evil of me.
00:40:35.443 --> 00:40:36.346
But anyway, back to you.
00:40:36.802 --> 00:40:37.021
Go ahead.
00:40:37.402 --> 00:40:39.887
No, there are lots of fun stories like that.
00:40:39.927 --> 00:40:43.693
We would go through, the Salt Lake Temple was our temple when we first got married.
00:40:44.735 --> 00:40:53.929
And we went through after 1990 and sometimes they would forget and try to lapse back into the old language.
00:40:54.090 --> 00:40:55.492
No, no, no, no, we don't do that anymore.
00:40:57.034 --> 00:41:03.485
But the best was there was this one guy who was, he was playing Peter and he had a very pronounced limp.
00:41:04.353 --> 00:41:15.969
And he walked up to the front, and my wife heard this, and she heard this woman behind her whisper as loud as she could, this older woman, and she didn't care who heard her.
00:41:16.891 --> 00:41:19.755
It's a nice-looking man, but I think he's a cripple.
00:41:20.996 --> 00:41:32.693
You know, so, I mean, we're going to lose all of that because the Salt Lake Temple isn't a live session anymore.
00:41:33.538 --> 00:41:44.858
President Nelson has gutted the Salt Lake Temple, gotten rid of all of the pioneer era murals, and is transforming it into another temple just like all the rest of them.
00:41:44.878 --> 00:41:45.981
And that breaks my heart.
00:41:46.121 --> 00:41:48.485
It really makes me sad that they're doing that.
00:41:48.806 --> 00:41:49.206
I don't know why...
00:41:49.266 --> 00:41:51.871
Yeah, there's so much history there.
00:41:52.893 --> 00:41:54.056
There's so much history.
00:41:54.476 --> 00:41:57.081
And the temple, the endowment...
00:41:57.538 --> 00:41:59.860
I mean, I prefer a shorter endowment.
00:41:59.900 --> 00:42:05.188
This endowment, by the way, is 13 minutes longer than the endowment from 2019 that it's replacing.
00:42:06.110 --> 00:42:14.742
And I'd say that most of that, if not all of it, is the introduction because the introduction just really gets into depth as to what's going to happen.
00:42:15.063 --> 00:42:17.706
In a perfect world, I would love to see a 10-minute endowment.
00:42:18.407 --> 00:42:25.077
I'd love to see an endowment where you go and you make your covenants and you do your signs and tokens and you go through the veil, bada-bing, bada-boom, and you're done.
00:42:25.634 --> 00:42:36.505
But there is something valuable about knowing that the original, or at least the vestiges of the original endowment, still exists somewhere.
00:42:36.867 --> 00:42:44.695
That there are still people who are going through that live ritual experience, that that's being preserved.
00:42:44.916 --> 00:42:45.597
And it's not.
00:42:45.956 --> 00:42:47.759
It's been discarded completely.
00:42:47.798 --> 00:42:53.445
And I think, hoping maybe we will come back to it when we realize what we've lost.
00:42:54.018 --> 00:43:09.259
Overall, as I look at the temple and as I look at the temple's relationship to my life, I am happy to engage with the temple in ways that will lift and inspire me to live a more Christlike life.
00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:20.393
And I am encouraged by what I see as efforts to equip the endowment with the tools to do that.
00:43:21.153 --> 00:43:26.101
And I think that the instinct to bring more of Christ into the endowment is a good one.
00:43:26.121 --> 00:43:30.768
I don't think it works yet.
00:43:31.608 --> 00:43:32.431
Hopefully it will.
00:43:33.072 --> 00:43:34.954
Hopefully we can do something with it.
00:43:35.876 --> 00:43:40.922
But I came out of this session thinking, okay, these are positive changes.
00:43:40.943 --> 00:43:43.706
I would like to see more changes.
00:43:44.708 --> 00:43:55.001
And I also kind of came out of the session completely absolved of my responsibility to reconcile it with previous sessions.
00:43:56.262 --> 00:44:01.786
That would have been a huge thing for me 30 years ago, and it's absolutely not an issue for me at all.
00:44:03.188 --> 00:44:12.898
They could swap out an entirely new temple ceremony that has none of the same language and none of any of that, and I'd be fine with it.
00:44:12.918 --> 00:44:13.478
Thank you for that.
00:44:13.719 --> 00:44:16.001
Just a few thoughts, bullet point thoughts.
00:44:17.581 --> 00:44:32.418
Thinking, listening to your experience there, I think if I was going through the temple for the first time now, it would be a lot easier for someone like me to experience it.
00:44:32.458 --> 00:44:34.722
The first experience was traumatic.
00:44:34.822 --> 00:44:36.322
It was disturbing.
00:44:36.344 --> 00:44:39.106
I almost left the church.
00:44:39.186 --> 00:44:41.329
It really, really affected me.
00:44:41.949 --> 00:44:44.273
I felt I'd joined a cult, a very cultish.
00:44:45.134 --> 00:44:48.338
It was a very deeply disturbing experience for me.
00:44:49.121 --> 00:44:49.902
very traumatic.
00:44:50.884 --> 00:45:09.523
Two, I was angry at one point that, and jump in on this, if you will, please, but that when I went to the temple the first time and since, when they talk about, you know, if anyone wishes to leave with their own free will, they can do so now.
00:45:10.905 --> 00:45:13.447
When I went through the first time, I didn't know what I was getting into.
00:45:13.487 --> 00:45:24.612
You know, when you sign a contract or you sign a mortgage or you you know, besides some assurance, you know the terms and conditions, you know what you're getting into, you know all the facts, right?
00:45:25.333 --> 00:45:28.418
And you need to have that information in order to make an informed decision.
00:45:28.739 --> 00:45:41.014
I felt that was taken away from me and I didn't, I had no idea, Jim, as you, you know, we all, we all know those who have gone through the temple, you don't know what's, you know, for the first time, you don't know what's ahead of you, right?
00:45:41.615 --> 00:45:50.463
And I still feel the church has a responsibility to be much more open, much more transparent about what people are getting into And what does this all mean?
00:45:50.523 --> 00:45:51.746
And where's the history?
00:45:52.065 --> 00:45:52.827
And it's got a long way.
00:45:53.248 --> 00:45:54.510
The changes are good.
00:45:54.789 --> 00:45:55.911
It sounds like they're improvements.
00:45:56.271 --> 00:45:57.313
We've still got a long way to go.
00:45:57.594 --> 00:46:00.958
The other thing I want to highlight as well, third point, it is an important point.
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:12.056
The question is, and I use this a lot in business, I'm not trying to sound cynical here, but what are the drivers behind these changes?
00:46:12.255 --> 00:46:16.101
Throughout this conversation, you've said, why are they doing that?
00:46:16.181 --> 00:46:20.119
If it was perfect or It didn't need to change.
00:46:20.300 --> 00:46:22.422
If they didn't make any mistakes, why have they changed?
00:46:22.443 --> 00:46:23.364
I think you said that.
00:46:23.925 --> 00:46:27.570
Well, as I listen to that, I think about what's driving these changes.
00:46:28.471 --> 00:46:43.251
And I think the answer to that question is the answer to the reason why the church will never reposition itself away from the fundamental doctrine of the church, which is we are saved by grace after all we can do.
00:46:43.472 --> 00:46:46.175
And the two are tied together, I think, very much...
00:46:47.938 --> 00:47:03.317
very much part of the temple experience that in order for the church to maintain commitment from its members, and yes, I'll say financial commitment, because there's the 15 yes or no questions in the temple recommendation, which I'd like to get into in a podcast in more detail at some point.
00:47:04.016 --> 00:47:16.210
Those covenants, keep on the covenant path, the tithing, there's quotes where I can't remember where it came from or who said it, but we ask a lot of our members.
00:47:16.572 --> 00:47:21.777
No other church on the earth, apparently, or some cult, asks as much of its members.
00:47:21.818 --> 00:47:24.681
And the reason why we do that is to bring people to salvation.
00:47:24.722 --> 00:47:27.606
We ask a lot of our church members, and the church certainly does.
00:47:28.166 --> 00:47:33.713
And in order to maintain that commitment, that devotion, you have to...
00:47:34.534 --> 00:47:36.277
Being saved by grace...
00:47:38.210 --> 00:47:41.358
I think from the church perspective, dilutes that commitment.
00:47:41.597 --> 00:47:50.699
It undoes the need for church, undoes the need for, look, you know, if I'm going to get saved, regardless, you know, because of my imperfections, etc.
00:47:51.221 --> 00:47:54.949
And that's what, you know, other faiths teach, you know, being saved.
00:47:55.030 --> 00:47:56.233
You know, I met many people.
00:47:56.514 --> 00:48:29.307
other doorstep in Scotland who were saved and we pushed back and we would say not only without works you know you're not saved you have to make an effort a good friend of mine in Scotland actually I won't mention his name he's a former state president I believe and councillor three times has left the church and is now a you know advocate of this new principle you know that we say by grace despite all we can do, to your point.
00:48:29.327 --> 00:48:49.405
And the church won't change that because it needs to have that lifelong devotion, that lifelong commitment, that lifelong covenant by covenant commitment and strictness, including tithing, including service, because that's what ties not just the person's life, but their standing in the church where they get a calling.
00:48:49.967 --> 00:48:52.509
It ties to their standing in the family.
00:48:53.110 --> 00:48:56.313
They tie this to, it's very smart, very clever, really.
00:48:56.492 --> 00:49:02.298
And again, forgive me for being sound and cynical, but it ties generation to generation over time and throughout all eternity.
00:49:03.880 --> 00:49:09.585
The temple experience is a multi-generational experience for families, right?
00:49:09.726 --> 00:49:11.126
And you know that more than I do.
00:49:11.146 --> 00:49:12.449
I'm a convert to the church.
00:49:12.469 --> 00:49:13.550
You understand that more than I do.
00:49:13.922 --> 00:49:25.476
And so it will never dilute that after all we can do of it because it needs that work element and that commitment level instead of, hey, you know, we don't have to do any of this stuff.
00:49:25.496 --> 00:49:26.538
We're going to be saved anyhow.
00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:32.505
There was a talk, and it's a really important talk, and I can't remember, and I've read it two or three times.
00:49:32.525 --> 00:49:33.206
I can't remember the person.
00:49:33.567 --> 00:49:34.708
I'd love to do a podcast on this.
00:49:34.748 --> 00:49:35.389
It's so important.
00:49:35.588 --> 00:49:41.115
There was a general authority that gave a talk years ago in General Conference.
00:49:41.175 --> 00:49:42.277
I think it was in the 80s.
00:49:42.978 --> 00:49:44.221
And I must remember the name.
00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:47.289
I'll research after this podcast.
00:49:47.769 --> 00:49:48.731
And he gave a talk.
00:49:49.454 --> 00:49:51.097
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
00:49:51.137 --> 00:49:51.599
He's the one.
00:49:51.739 --> 00:49:52.159
He's the one.
00:49:52.581 --> 00:49:52.961
He's the one.
00:49:53.182 --> 00:49:53.483
Thank you.
00:49:53.523 --> 00:49:54.286
Your memory is better than mine.
00:49:54.686 --> 00:49:56.050
And he said, I got from that.
00:49:56.411 --> 00:50:00.902
One of the key things I got from that was, look, if we live in the gospel naturally.
00:50:01.474 --> 00:50:06.065
We're doing things because we want to, not because we have to, not because we're keeping covenants.
00:50:06.367 --> 00:50:07.329
We're told what to do.
00:50:07.751 --> 00:50:08.211
You're on a mission.
00:50:08.231 --> 00:50:09.275
You have to tick all these boxes.
00:50:09.295 --> 00:50:10.077
Did you get up on time?
00:50:10.257 --> 00:50:12.463
Did you do this?
00:50:12.543 --> 00:50:13.045
Did you do that?
00:50:13.105 --> 00:50:14.909
You're not being...
00:50:15.106 --> 00:50:16.547
instructed on everything.
00:50:16.608 --> 00:50:20.074
The church says, by the way, that it's not good to be commanded in all things.
00:50:20.114 --> 00:50:21.076
We should have the conversation.
00:50:21.677 --> 00:50:35.621
He says that if you're living naturally the gospel, loving people because you want to be like that because of Christ, because of who Christ is, and you want to be kind and thoughtful and do it motivated by love, essentially.
00:50:35.661 --> 00:50:38.144
He said we won't need all the church programs.
00:50:38.753 --> 00:50:40.436
We won't need all the church institutions.
00:50:40.755 --> 00:50:42.418
We won't need all these different layers, etc.
00:50:42.458 --> 00:50:44.019
That was the message I got from that talk.
00:50:44.240 --> 00:50:46.764
I thought that was one of the most profound talks I'd ever heard.
00:50:46.804 --> 00:50:56.175
The church, by the way, had him redo that talk with a cough soundtrack in the background.
00:50:57.295 --> 00:50:57.717
Is that correct?
00:50:57.737 --> 00:50:58.237
That's what I heard.
00:50:58.677 --> 00:50:59.539
He had to go back in.
00:50:59.579 --> 00:51:05.045
They changed his wording, rejig it, make some serious changes, which he did.
00:51:05.634 --> 00:51:11.619
he had a cough soundtrack in the background to make it sound like he was still at conference.
00:51:11.699 --> 00:51:20.228
And they published it as though, the second version, as though he was at conference, which I thought was a little bit disingenuous and a little bit misleading.
00:51:20.648 --> 00:51:30.597
But the main principle I got from that was, the original talk was, hey, we'll let the gospel, we don't need all these different instructions on every single level.
00:51:30.637 --> 00:51:33.221
I thought it was right, and I still do to this day.
00:51:34.161 --> 00:51:37.307
The church, That's a risk to the church.
00:51:37.387 --> 00:51:41.012
So the question I'm asking is, what's driving this, these changes?
00:51:41.572 --> 00:51:46.918
And it ties to the need and the church to take this very seriously.
00:51:47.179 --> 00:52:11.762
It takes impact from public opinion, political opinion, and it definitely takes very seriously, perhaps more seriously, anything that threatens the dilution of a watering down of members, time, service, financial commitment, you're not going to see a change in position on the works piece of being saved, right?
00:52:12.001 --> 00:52:14.065
We ask ourselves, what's driving these changes?
00:52:14.244 --> 00:53:12.510
And I think it's trying to wrestle with the need to maintain that lifelong membership commitment and the need to balance public opinion and member opinion and try to modernize, that's the word I would use, modernize the what is a 18th, 19th century 18th, 19th century Presbyterian Protestant Freemasonry structured organized events and experience and I think you're going to see more changes where there's going to be watering down and trying to modernize it and bring it into some level of less cultish but it will never I don't think it will, I'm convinced it will never take away the need for people to covenant, to make a lifelong promise and covenant with their assets and their financial covenants and et cetera, et cetera, because the church relies on that for its survival and for its success.
00:53:12.632 --> 00:53:21.525
And it's not, if you're a business, again, without being cynical, the one rule of your business, and people will know this out there, you protect your investment.
00:53:21.764 --> 00:53:22.405
That's number one.
00:53:23.041 --> 00:53:25.164
You protect and safeguard your investment.
00:53:25.204 --> 00:53:26.485
If you've got a house, you protect it.
00:53:26.565 --> 00:53:27.967
If you've got a business, you protect it.
00:53:28.367 --> 00:53:32.032
If you have investments, you're on them every day, diligently looking at your investment.
00:53:32.052 --> 00:53:39.481
And the members are the church's biggest investment in the church financially, the service.
00:53:39.782 --> 00:53:44.849
Look at what would happen if people didn't give the service that they did.
00:53:44.909 --> 00:53:46.329
The church simply wouldn't function.
00:53:46.771 --> 00:53:49.373
It couldn't pay for services.
00:53:49.570 --> 00:53:53.914
A clergy like Church of England do, or Church of Scotland, which pays its clergy.
00:53:54.476 --> 00:53:55.818
The church, I mean, could afford it.
00:53:56.938 --> 00:53:58.460
You know, I think we'd all be doing extremely well.
00:53:58.481 --> 00:54:01.605
I wonder what the salary would be for a bishop, by the way.
00:54:02.246 --> 00:54:02.905
That's interesting.
00:54:02.965 --> 00:54:04.007
Or a state president.
00:54:04.909 --> 00:54:08.393
I'd love to know what the salary would be for that.
00:54:08.512 --> 00:54:11.336
But you're going to see more changes, positive changes.
00:54:11.396 --> 00:54:15.601
We said at the very beginning that, you know, we want to see the church improve, right?
00:54:15.722 --> 00:54:16.663
Where can it improve?
00:54:16.722 --> 00:54:18.264
Where can the changes be made?
00:54:18.945 --> 00:54:25.858
And that means that it will be a better church, a more inclusive church, a more inclusive experience.
00:54:26.579 --> 00:54:29.164
It's going in the right direction on some things, for sure.
00:54:29.344 --> 00:54:32.010
It's going in the opposite direction on some other things.
00:54:32.632 --> 00:54:42.210
As time goes on and some of the leaders are no longer there, I think we will see a further modernization and advancement of these universal principles.
00:54:42.786 --> 00:54:44.028
and a more inclusive approach.
00:54:44.389 --> 00:54:54.108
Who knows, you know, if years to come, if the church is more inclusive and somewhat kinder, you know, would I even go back or even go to a service?
00:54:54.309 --> 00:54:55.492
I don't know.
00:54:56.934 --> 00:54:58.036
We'll see.
00:54:58.277 --> 00:54:58.617
Who knows?
00:54:58.918 --> 00:55:04.130
My goal is to help make the church a place where Ian Wilkes can feel right.
00:55:04.514 --> 00:55:09.938
If that happens, then I'll know we've done it right.
00:55:10.259 --> 00:55:16.445
I'm encouraged by the changes where they make people feel a bit more comfortable.
00:55:17.065 --> 00:55:33.981
And to your point, if they can just explain what things are and what they mean and why is it important and how does it impact you and just provide a substance behind the messaging instead of window dressing, that would be so...
00:55:34.818 --> 00:55:41.103
important for people that think and not church broke.
00:55:41.164 --> 00:55:51.474
People actually think and have genuine questions that really want to know how these covenants, why they're so important to keep.
00:55:51.494 --> 00:56:03.826
I was, real quick, just finishing off here, I was always terrified because I did really well on the temple endowment, all the wording, both on the patron side and on the veil side.
00:56:04.514 --> 00:56:19.570
until I got to write it to the very end, where I would always screw up on the final few words, you know, you should really not be weary, you know, strengthen the loins of the sinews through all generations, and I can't remember all the wording.
00:56:20.090 --> 00:56:24.735
And the last two lines, I'd screw up almost every time.
00:56:24.755 --> 00:56:32.164
And then in the Celestial Kingdom, I had a temple council say, Ian, you've got to get that wording down.
00:56:32.184 --> 00:56:35.387
I said, I know, I said, I've I just seemed to mess it up.
00:56:36.228 --> 00:56:40.114
And he said, you know, if you don't get it word perfect, you can't enter the kingdom of God.
00:56:40.135 --> 00:56:41.797
I went, are you kidding me?
00:56:42.157 --> 00:56:42.940
He said, no.
00:56:43.561 --> 00:56:44.001
I said, so?
00:56:44.242 --> 00:56:45.704
So I said, you are joking.
00:56:45.744 --> 00:56:46.545
This is a Cecil room.
00:56:47.166 --> 00:56:47.686
He said, no.
00:56:48.068 --> 00:56:59.545
He said, if you get one word wrong, I said, what if I've devoted my entire life, you know, to serving and then doing things behind the scenes and...
00:56:59.905 --> 00:57:10.079
you know, being righteous or, you know, he said, no, he said, if you get those words wrong at the veil, you're not going to make it into the celestial kingdom.
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:13.704
One, I thought he was talking bullshit.
00:57:13.744 --> 00:57:15.306
I didn't tell him that in the celestial room.
00:57:15.326 --> 00:57:16.467
I don't think that would have been appropriate.
00:57:17.409 --> 00:57:19.512
But he was, I didn't believe that for one second.
00:57:19.572 --> 00:57:31.168
And two, I just thought the people that do believe that, they must be, can you imagine getting into the, you know, you die, you go to the veil, And you get in all the words, you know, and let's say you've lived a crappy life.
00:57:32.148 --> 00:57:35.313
You've not been very kind to people because that's the other part of this, isn't it?
00:57:35.454 --> 00:57:36.115
Covenant keeping.
00:57:36.155 --> 00:57:38.659
One thing going to the devil is quite another living it, isn't it?
00:57:39.420 --> 00:57:45.831
And then you go there and you mess up a few words and Peter says, look, Jim, you know, you're awesome.
00:57:46.813 --> 00:57:49.436
Your father's been in the church since the very beginning of time.
00:57:49.476 --> 00:57:51.880
David and Mackay is like waving at you.
00:57:52.041 --> 00:57:54.925
Mackay in Scotland, waving behind Jim.
00:57:55.297 --> 00:57:57.661
Jim, we're here.
00:57:57.782 --> 00:58:00.144
And then he would say, Grant, Jim, we're over here.
00:58:00.164 --> 00:58:01.606
And you're like, hey, guys.
00:58:02.148 --> 00:58:04.731
And all your family are like, I can't get in.
00:58:04.811 --> 00:58:05.233
What do you mean?
00:58:05.393 --> 00:58:06.454
I messed up.
00:58:07.476 --> 00:58:08.097
I'll see you guys.
00:58:08.478 --> 00:58:09.840
And where are you going?
00:58:10.019 --> 00:58:11.322
I'm going down.
00:58:11.541 --> 00:58:12.403
I'm going to the elevator.
00:58:12.724 --> 00:58:15.027
And what's going on?
00:58:15.128 --> 00:58:16.208
Yeah, I messed up.
00:58:16.730 --> 00:58:19.333
The whole thing is absurd, for goodness me.
00:58:19.373 --> 00:58:21.717
But I know people that really...
00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:23.010
was terrified.
00:58:23.733 --> 00:58:32.045
Somebody who passed away shared with me they were afraid, terrified that their memory was failing an old age and I gave them a blessing.
00:58:32.065 --> 00:58:34.849
And the blessing was, by the way, to remember.
00:58:35.148 --> 00:58:41.759
They said to me, can you bless me to remember specific, to remember the wording in the temple.
00:58:42.360 --> 00:58:46.947
It gave her hope and she died without worry from what I understand.
00:58:47.527 --> 00:58:49.090
But it's scary
00:58:49.110 --> 00:58:49.411
stuff.
00:58:50.092 --> 00:58:55.505
I don't think any of us are going to be barred from the kingdom because we can't remember some words.
00:58:56.168 --> 00:59:06.231
But if you remember these words, if you're listening to this, please be sure to like us and subscribe to our podcast and join us in our next edition of Inside Out.
00:59:06.431 --> 00:59:07.233
Thank you, Ian.
00:59:07.753 --> 00:59:08.536
Thank you, Jim.