#79 | How Emotional Support Animals Help LGBTQ Youth Heal — And What Parents Need To Know About Mental Health and Belonging

Host
00:00:07
Welcome back.

Host
00:00:08
I am really happy you are here, that you are taking time for yourself, and I'm honored that you're spending it here with me.

Host
00:00:18
While we tend to focus on mental health topics at specific times of the year, I really believe we ought to make it part of our daily conversations.

Host
00:00:28
Think about the things that we do automatically, every single day to take care of our physical health.

Host
00:00:35
We brush our teeth.

Host
00:00:37
We eat healthy foods, or we at least try to most of the time, right?

Host
00:00:42
We exercise.

Host
00:00:44
We maybe even take extra vitamins or supplements.

Host
00:00:48
And we proactively take care of our physical bodies because we know we are potentially susceptible or genetically predisposed to certain diseases.

Host
00:01:00
But what do we do automatically to take care of our mental health?

Host
00:01:05
Do we meditate?

Host
00:01:06
Do we do breathing exercises?

Host
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Do we talk to a therapist or other support person?

Host
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Do we take a moment when we need it instead of white knuckling it?

Host
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Do we talk about taking care of our mental health in the same way that we talk about taking care of our physical health?

Host
00:01:25
They are intertwined and they directly affect the other.

Host
00:01:30
My guest today works daily to normalize mental health and, when necessary, advocate for those who need it.

Host
00:01:37
Daniel Magler is a therapist and a high school Counselor with over 20 years and 1000 clients worth of experience.

Host
00:01:45
He is insightful and is one of those beautiful humans who can connect teenagers in the most authentic ways.

Host
00:01:53
Dan is my neighbor on the North Shore of Chicago.

Host
00:01:56
He serves on the board of Paws for Patrick, which we will learn about in a few minutes.

Host
00:02:01
And he is the host of the podcast Not Allowed to Die.

Heather Hester
00:02:17
Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

Heather Hester
00:02:30
My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here.

Daniel Magler
00:02:34
I want you to take a deep.

Heather Hester
00:02:36
Breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.

Heather Hester
00:02:44
Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.

Heather Hester
00:03:02
Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Deanne
00:03:17
Well, Deanne, thank you so much for being here with me today, and I'm really excited to have this conversation about one of my favorite topics, which I think is.

Deanne
00:03:29
I don't know if that's the best way to say that, but I really do enjoy talking about mental health and sharing people experts on the topic and people who just have so such a wealth of information.

Deanne
00:03:43
And so I am delighted that you are here.

Deanne
00:03:47
And one of the things that you do that we learned, we learned about each other when we were.

Deanne
00:03:53
We were talking earlier, was that you are on the board for this extraordinary.

Deanne
00:03:59
It's located in the Chicago area, which you and I actually are both in, which is also very cool.

Deanne
00:04:04
We found out.

Deanne
00:04:04
And I had heard about this amazing organization.

Deanne
00:04:08
It's called Pause for Patrick.

Deanne
00:04:10
And so I thought we'd just start with that because I know everyone would love to hear.

Deanne
00:04:16
Hear about this organization, why and why it is so very important.

Daniel Magler
00:04:21
Well, thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

Daniel Magler
00:04:23
I am.

Daniel Magler
00:04:24
I am, as I've told you, a big fan, and I do recommend your podcast to people.

Daniel Magler
00:04:27
So, like, it's.

Daniel Magler
00:04:28
It's fun to actually be on, like, not just listening to your voice, but actually being part of the conversation.

Daniel Magler
00:04:34
So.

Daniel Magler
00:04:34
Pause for Patrick was an organization started by the Romer family after they lost their son Patrick in May of 2020 to suicide.

Daniel Magler
00:04:42
And I was Patrick's school social worker and knew him from his freshman year all the way into his senior year.

Daniel Magler
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And so obviously, it had a major impact on me.

Daniel Magler
00:04:53
After he died, there was a GoFundMe that got put together by people who cared about the family.

Daniel Magler
00:04:58
And the family said, we don't necessarily need this money.

Daniel Magler
00:05:01
We want to take it and use it to help other people like Patrick.

Daniel Magler
00:05:04
Patrick was not a huge fan of regular therapy.

Daniel Magler
00:05:08
You know, he tried it.

Daniel Magler
00:05:09
He didn't like medication.

Daniel Magler
00:05:10
He didn't want to do any of those things.

Daniel Magler
00:05:12
What really helped him when he was struggling was his dog Cece, and being with his dog.

Daniel Magler
00:05:17
And so Patrick's parents were thinking, hey, how can we bring the love of animals to the people who need it the most?

Daniel Magler
00:05:23
And so they got people together.

Daniel Magler
00:05:25
And so Pause for Patrick has two main services that it provides.

Daniel Magler
00:05:28
We have therapy dog handlers who.

Daniel Magler
00:05:30
And this is all around the Chicago area, but primarily up in Lake county or right on that borderline of Lake and Cook, where our team of therapy dog handlers, we have 25 of them who will go to schools or mental health treatment facilities and bring dogs, therapy dogs to young people so that they can spend some time with them.

Daniel Magler
00:05:48
And it has an incredible impact.

Daniel Magler
00:05:49
They just light up.

Daniel Magler
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And everybody loves seeing the dogs anytime that they're there.

Daniel Magler
00:05:54
So if anybody ever wants to learn to be a therapy dog handler or training our group tells more, spreads information about that.

Daniel Magler
00:06:01
And if you are a person who has a therapy dog we would love.

Daniel Magler
00:06:03
We're always recruiting more volunteers around that area.

Daniel Magler
00:06:06
But the other thing we do is we help anybody all around the country.

Daniel Magler
00:06:10
We focus on young people, but that young people is a pretty loosely defined term.

Daniel Magler
00:06:15
Our oldest client has been 89 years old, down to like down to 6.

Daniel Magler
00:06:20
So anybody with mental health disorders, again, but our focus is on young people to get an emotional, help them get an emotional support animal.

Daniel Magler
00:06:27
So we have a budget where we can help people acquire an emotional support animal and even get some basic training.

Daniel Magler
00:06:32
So not service animal or therapy dog training, but the kind of just obedience training, which would mean that if they're living in an apartment, they wouldn't get in trouble with annoying their neighbors and whatnot.

Daniel Magler
00:06:41
And then I and other members of the therapists team, we will write emotional support animal letters free of charge.

Daniel Magler
00:06:48
I'm actually doing one of those after we get off of here today for people so that they can have their animal in their dorm or in their apartment.

Daniel Magler
00:06:56
Because we just believe that it can be transformational.

Daniel Magler
00:07:00
And even if you have a great therapist, your therapist is not going to pick up the phone at three in the morning.

Daniel Magler
00:07:04
But you can hug that dog, that cat, and you're that therapy bird.

Daniel Magler
00:07:08
Emotional support animals don't have to be.

Daniel Magler
00:07:10
They can be anything.

Daniel Magler
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Any animal that just connecting with it can help a person to feel better.

Daniel Magler
00:07:14
And Patrick was not lgbtqia, but a couple of his really good friends are and were.

Daniel Magler
00:07:20
And you know, we've helped them and just in, you know, in the queer community.

Daniel Magler
00:07:23
I know, I work with a lot of kids that for so many people, when chosen family is a thing that people are having to create, often their furry friends are a huge part of that chosen family.

Daniel Magler
00:07:35
So we want to again, particularly reach out to the people who are listening to this to realize again, if a person has a mental health disorder, anxiety, depression, anything like that, Claus for Patrick, who is a place that they should go to look for maybe some help and support.

Deanne
00:07:50
I love that so much.

Deanne
00:07:51
And I love that you explain the difference between therapy animal as opposed to an emotional support animal.

Deanne
00:07:59
Because I, prior to us speaking, had, didn't really know that there was a difference.

Deanne
00:08:04
And it makes a ton of sense.

Deanne
00:08:05
But, you know, kind of relate to your point.

Deanne
00:08:07
I know that you have behind you your emotional support animal, Mariska, who is your podcast guest host.

Deanne
00:08:14
And I'm so happy that she's on with us now too.

Deanne
00:08:18
And.

Deanne
00:08:19
But having that, I mean, I have two dogs who are, you know, the biggest ding a lings in the world, but they the joy and the comfort.

Deanne
00:08:28
And it is extraordinary, you know, when I always think, especially when I'm petting my one dog, like, you could have like, the most like, like the worst day ever.

Deanne
00:08:38
Right?

Deanne
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And you sit down and you pet that dog, and it is amazing what that does for you.

Deanne
00:08:44
Right.

Deanne
00:08:45
And so I'm delighted.

Deanne
00:08:48
I love that that is what you do for people, not just here in the Chicagoland area, but all around the country and really help educating on that piece.

Deanne
00:09:00
Because also to your point, a traditional therapist isn't for everyone and it's not necessarily accessible either.

Deanne
00:09:10
So this is just a lovely piece to know.

Deanne
00:09:13
Oh, my gosh, this can work.

Deanne
00:09:16
And this is why it works.

Daniel Magler
00:09:18
Right.

Daniel Magler
00:09:18
And that's just again, like, anybody can have a need and we're not working.

Daniel Magler
00:09:22
It's not a competition.

Daniel Magler
00:09:24
So for one person, yoga might not be their thing.

Daniel Magler
00:09:26
For someone else it is.

Daniel Magler
00:09:27
But we should all be working together to find, to cobble together what it's going to take for us to be our healthiest selves.

Daniel Magler
00:09:33
And so that's where we want to be.

Daniel Magler
00:09:35
And also, as you were kind of talking, we want to raise the awareness piece.

Daniel Magler
00:09:38
And in the month of May, Palliser Patrick does a thing called Turn Our Towns Green around the Chicago area.

Daniel Magler
00:09:43
And we're trying to expand that to a lot of campuses.

Daniel Magler
00:09:46
So for college students, if they're interested in helping promote awareness on their college campus, they can reach out to us or turn our campuses green.

Daniel Magler
00:09:54
And we're looking for people who want to be sort of captains or leading it and getting there, whether it's their fraternity, sorority, whether they're part of the marching band, and they just want to help put up signs.

Daniel Magler
00:10:05
So during that month, we're really maybe Mental Health Awareness Month.

Daniel Magler
00:10:10
So May and September are two big months of the year, September being Suicide Awareness Month.

Daniel Magler
00:10:14
And so we just.

Daniel Magler
00:10:16
But that May Turn Our Towns Green is a really.

Daniel Magler
00:10:18
Also a big.

Daniel Magler
00:10:19
And so up around the north, up and down the North Shore in the Chicagoland area, you'll see the Turn Our Town, the Paula Sir Patrick Turn Our Towns Green signs.

Daniel Magler
00:10:26
Yeah.

Deanne
00:10:26
Yes.

Deanne
00:10:27
That is so.

Deanne
00:10:28
I love that.

Deanne
00:10:29
I'm sitting here thinking, oh, my goodness, my daughter, who is at the University of Michigan, I mean, she would be all over that.

Deanne
00:10:38
And just knowing both of my kids, my older two who are away at college, who do they miss the most?

Deanne
00:10:46
Dogs.

Deanne
00:10:46
They cannot wait to get home to be with these dogs.

Deanne
00:10:49
And you know, and just like the what.

Deanne
00:10:52
What they do for them.

Deanne
00:10:53
And.

Deanne
00:10:53
And so it is something that if you stop and Think about it for two seconds.

Deanne
00:10:57
You know, whatever.

Deanne
00:10:58
Your animal is, right?

Deanne
00:10:59
For us, it's our dog.

Deanne
00:11:00
Some people, it's their cat or, like their bird, you said, right?

Deanne
00:11:03
Or they're, you know, gigantic, you know, dragon.

Daniel Magler
00:11:11
Those.

Deanne
00:11:11
Those things, right?

Deanne
00:11:13
Because I.

Deanne
00:11:13
And I'm saying that because I'm that my daughter, my younger daughter, her freshman year, and they have an area and her high school that was kind of an emotional support area.

Deanne
00:11:25
And I'm totally drawing a blank on the name of this creature, but it was like a big, gigantic lizard, and that was like the emotional support lizard.

Deanne
00:11:34
And she loves this thing when she go in and pet it all the time.

Daniel Magler
00:11:40
In the title of your podcast, you know, just breathe.

Daniel Magler
00:11:43
So often, like, you know, it's hard when we're having anxiety attacks where the ability to slow down and to regulate our breathing is really challenging.

Daniel Magler
00:11:51
And so a lot of the research shows that just while you're petting an animal, it does that grounding for us, and it helps us to be in that moment and regulate along with them.

Daniel Magler
00:12:00
And what's interesting.

Daniel Magler
00:12:01
So Dr.

Daniel Magler
00:12:02
Janet Oy Gerlach of University of Toledo has done a lot of research that cats are actually somewhat more effective than dogs in helping people to just regulate that breathing.

Daniel Magler
00:12:12
But some of the other new research is that one of the great things about dogs is that when they make eye contact with us, and we're getting that eye contact going back and forth again, a different sort of sense of feeling known and connected with, it helps to alleviate some of that loneliness and that sense of isolation.

Daniel Magler
00:12:30
One of the movies that I recommend to some people, and again, it's not everybody's cup of tea, but as Good as it Gets with Jack Nicholson.

Daniel Magler
00:12:37
And I think it's Greg Kinnear who plays his neighbor.

Daniel Magler
00:12:43
And so the dog, and he's always with the dog, but you can see that that dog is.

Daniel Magler
00:12:47
It's.

Daniel Magler
00:12:48
It's something that, again, is grounding him.

Daniel Magler
00:12:50
It's making him feel not alone, and it's that level of connection.

Daniel Magler
00:13:48
So I think for all of us, and we are.

Daniel Magler
00:13:50
There's an excellent book that I can't recommend enough.

Daniel Magler
00:13:52
It's called Running with Sherman.

Daniel Magler
00:13:54
And it talks about that intersection between our exercise, our mental health, and that as a species, we.

Daniel Magler
00:14:01
We grew up alongside of animals.

Daniel Magler
00:14:03
And so, like, we couldn't have come as far as we did without the domestication of dogs.

Daniel Magler
00:14:08
And so it's only actually in the second half of the 20th century that we've gotten away from spending so much time with animals that we're a lot of.

Daniel Magler
00:14:15
We are wired to be living alongside them and having them in our lives.

Daniel Magler
00:14:19
And so when we're not doing that, we're losing something.

Daniel Magler
00:14:22
So.

Daniel Magler
00:14:23
Yeah.

Deanne
00:14:24
Wow, that is phenomenal.

Deanne
00:14:26
I.

Deanne
00:14:27
It makes total sense, doesn't it?

Deanne
00:14:29
But it's something that you just don't even think about or realize.

Deanne
00:14:33
And because things are so fast paced and so fast moving, you know, most of us do not take the time to really stop and think about that.

Deanne
00:14:44
Think about what that connection, you know, having that connection and what that connection is doing for us and for them.

Deanne
00:14:51
Right.

Deanne
00:14:52
And so I just applaud what you all are doing, and I'm so grateful for it.

Deanne
00:15:03
And, and I, you know, it's funny being in the area I knew of pause for Patrick, but I wasn't entirely clear on exactly.

Deanne
00:15:12
So I'm so grateful now to know this that I can, you know, at least be a voice, if nothing else.

Daniel Magler
00:15:20
Well, that's, that's all we ask for it.

Daniel Magler
00:15:22
And sometimes people are saying, well, it just feels too good to be true.

Daniel Magler
00:15:25
Like, what do you mean?

Daniel Magler
00:15:26
You're not, you're, you're not charging anything and you're not, you don't want anything from us.

Daniel Magler
00:15:30
It just.

Daniel Magler
00:15:30
No, all we want is for people to pay it forward.

Daniel Magler
00:15:33
And there is a lot.

Daniel Magler
00:15:34
If you go online and you look about emotional support animals, there is, there is a lot of.

Daniel Magler
00:15:39
There are a lot of controversies among even some people who are really supportive of them about criticizing agencies that write emotional support animal letters because they may feel like, okay, well, you're going to ruin it for all of us.

Daniel Magler
00:15:52
You know, the laws have been there to protect having emotional support animals.

Daniel Magler
00:15:55
But there are organizations.

Daniel Magler
00:15:57
For example, certapet is an organization where people can go on there and they get an interview set up with a clinician, and it's all legitimate, it's all legal, and you pay your 150 bucks and you get your emotional support animal letter.

Daniel Magler
00:16:09
And so there are critics, though, who will say, well, that's not really a relationship.

Daniel Magler
00:16:14
They don't really know the person.

Daniel Magler
00:16:16
And is that legitimate?

Daniel Magler
00:16:17
And so it all depends state by state.

Daniel Magler
00:16:19
Different states have different regulations.

Daniel Magler
00:16:20
But the point is, it doesn't take as a clinician and when I've been doing, I've had to have come up with diagnosis of people in 15 or 20 minutes when I'm working in the emergency room to determine what course of treatment are we giving.

Daniel Magler
00:16:33
The way it works is the law says that in order for me to write a letter for someone about an emotional Support animal.

Daniel Magler
00:16:39
I need to know that in my clinical judgment, that person has a disability that can be made better by being with an animal.

Daniel Magler
00:16:48
And then I also.

Daniel Magler
00:16:49
That relationship is what I pause for Patrick, though, we make sure our relationship is ongo so that if that person was to have a problem, like, gosh, I thought that having an animal, like one of, again, one of Patrick's friends who got a dog, he thought it was going to reduce his stress.

Daniel Magler
00:17:03
But being a college student and having.

Daniel Magler
00:17:05
Sharing a space, even though his friend, his roommates were on board with having the dog, the dog that he got was having a lot of barking issues.

Daniel Magler
00:17:12
And so plaster Patrick, we paid extra to get some extra training for that dog, but it still was causing more stress than it was relieving.

Daniel Magler
00:17:19
And so in that case, we helped.

Daniel Magler
00:17:21
Were alongside and helped him find the way, the proper way to re home that.

Daniel Magler
00:17:24
That animal.

Daniel Magler
00:17:25
So it didn't add more feelings of guilt and sadness.

Daniel Magler
00:17:28
So that's.

Daniel Magler
00:17:29
And I think that's what critics would be saying, you know, it shouldn't just be a, you know, you pay your 150 bucks, you get your letter that it's all over.

Daniel Magler
00:17:36
But that's why we want to be all along the way with people throughout their journey, right?

Deanne
00:17:41
Which is so important.

Deanne
00:17:43
And that is a great example of, you know, what could be, you know, one thing that could potentially happen.

Deanne
00:17:48
So that is really, really good to know.

Deanne
00:17:51
And.

Deanne
00:17:52
And I think that, you know, circling back to your college initiative, so huge.

Deanne
00:17:57
I mean, really, really so huge, and just, you know, raising.

Deanne
00:18:02
Raising awareness and letting people know that that is an option, right?

Deanne
00:18:09
Because I think, you know, at the base of all of this is there are options, right?

Deanne
00:18:15
So which also kind of circles me to, you know, your podcast, which is so wonderful.

Deanne
00:18:21
It's called Not Allowed to Die.

Deanne
00:18:25
And because.

Deanne
00:18:26
And I.

Deanne
00:18:27
I know that you named it that for a number of reasons, but it is this whole, like, there's options.

Deanne
00:18:33
Like, that's like, kind of inferred in that, right?

Deanne
00:18:35
And it's.

Deanne
00:18:36
There are options.

Deanne
00:18:37
Here's another one.

Deanne
00:18:38
Pause for Patrick.

Deanne
00:18:40
Emotional support animals.

Deanne
00:18:42
Just having someone, you know, somebody in your school, you are a social worker in your school.

Deanne
00:18:50
You also do all of this work with LGBTQIA kids.

Deanne
00:18:54
And so it, I think, you know, part of our.

Deanne
00:18:57
Our work and is just kind of raising that awareness that there are.

Deanne
00:19:02
There's always an option, right?

Daniel Magler
00:19:04
Like the.

Daniel Magler
00:19:05
I.

Daniel Magler
00:19:05
I'll tell.

Daniel Magler
00:19:05
I tell all the students in, you know, my LGBTQIA group, you know, about the.

Daniel Magler
00:19:10
The It Gets Better project where they can Go and watch videos and things, because when you're.

Daniel Magler
00:19:14
When you're young, it feel.

Daniel Magler
00:19:16
And if you've been in pain for a long time, it's natural for you to assume that your future will mimic your past and for them to believe.

Daniel Magler
00:19:23
And what they need to see is adults and older people who are saying, I know what you're experiencing right now, but you got to not trust your gut here.

Daniel Magler
00:19:32
You have to not trust your experience, and you have to trust me and us, but all these other people have made it.

Daniel Magler
00:19:37
And so that's what.

Daniel Magler
00:19:38
That's what we're doing.

Daniel Magler
00:19:39
You know, a lot of the time is saying, let's.

Daniel Magler
00:19:41
Let's project forward and try to create a belief for you that your future can be better than where your past was.

Daniel Magler
00:19:47
And for so many, again of my.

Daniel Magler
00:19:49
My students who are in that group, their.

Daniel Magler
00:19:52
Their connection again to other people, to animals, can sometimes help.

Daniel Magler
00:19:56
An interesting thing that I didn't realize until I started doing the groups is the zodiac, you know, and why.

Daniel Magler
00:20:03
So when we go around and introduce ourselves in group, kids will say their name, their year, their pronouns, and they.

Daniel Magler
00:20:09
The kids spontaneously started sharing their zodiac signs.

Deanne
00:20:12
I love that.

Daniel Magler
00:20:14
And I didn't realize till there used to be a podcast called Nancy that was.

Daniel Magler
00:20:20
It was a great podcast of LGBTQ issues.

Daniel Magler
00:20:22
And it.

Daniel Magler
00:20:23
It was an NPR podcast and stopped running, but you can go back to the archives of it.

Daniel Magler
00:20:26
It's fantastic.

Daniel Magler
00:20:27
But what kind of things were in the queer canon and the zodiac?

Daniel Magler
00:20:31
You know, I didn't realize part of the reason why it's in sort of the queer canon is because so many kids don't feel at home in the spiritual realm that's set up, you know, by what their parents did.

Daniel Magler
00:20:41
And so it's giving a different way of whether it's Wiccan or whether it's whichever else to say, I can.

Daniel Magler
00:20:47
I can explore something different.

Daniel Magler
00:20:49
And so for me, instead of saying, oh, that's weird, let's not do that, to say, yeah, how can we make this work for you?

Daniel Magler
00:20:55
Let me find out what it is about, you know, so even if I don't necessarily a big believer in astrology, but I can see how that might be working for you, how that might be helping you, because it's making you feel like you're creating.

Daniel Magler
00:21:09
As I said, we mentioned, chosen family, well chosen.

Daniel Magler
00:21:12
Recreating our universe.

Daniel Magler
00:21:16
And that's so much of the piece with mental health and with awareness is to say instead of just reducing the stigma, to start to reframe it in realizing that every Challenge is an opportunity.

Daniel Magler
00:21:27
And the things that make us different, if it's anxiety, our anxiety can be my superpower.

Daniel Magler
00:21:31
Depression can also be my superpower because it can increase my empathy.

Daniel Magler
00:21:35
And so.

Daniel Magler
00:21:35
And being different.

Daniel Magler
00:21:36
And again, it's not an accident that all the greatest artists in history were queer.

Daniel Magler
00:21:41
You know, it's like, there's something about us that are, you know, like, that there is to embrace that your difference is in this, a different perspective that you're bringing, and how can we bring that to the table?

Daniel Magler
00:21:52
So that's what.

Daniel Magler
00:21:52
I'm not allowed to die.

Daniel Magler
00:21:53
On my podcast, I'm always trying to explore different aspects of mental health and saying, what's something that might have struck me as new, and how can I amplify that out to more people with that idea of hope and that we can take that somewhere different.

Deanne
00:22:08
Oh, goodness, that is just fantastic.

Deanne
00:22:13
And I do like that.

Deanne
00:22:14
And I want everybody to go listen, because mental health is something that we all can learn more about, right?

Deanne
00:22:23
There's always more to learn and more to be aware of.

Deanne
00:22:26
And as we grow and learn, then there's that much more that we can understand, right?

Deanne
00:22:33
And that we can see in our kids or see in our partners or see in people we love, right?

Deanne
00:22:39
And ourselves and be able to, you know, find the supports that work.

Deanne
00:22:46
And.

Deanne
00:22:47
And it is different for every.

Deanne
00:22:49
You know, for everyone.

Deanne
00:22:49
And I love that.

Deanne
00:22:50
That's such a fantastic example about the Zodiac, because I remember when, you know, when Connor initially was like, oh, yeah, I'm totally interested in that.

Deanne
00:23:00
I was like, huh?

Daniel Magler
00:23:02
Really?

Deanne
00:23:02
And I was so.

Deanne
00:23:03
And I was more just, like, perplexed about it because I was like, well, I mean, okay.

Deanne
00:23:10
I mean, right?

Deanne
00:23:11
We're learning all these other new things.

Deanne
00:23:13
Might as well throw that on the table.

Deanne
00:23:15
And you know, and quite honestly, like, we had to take our.

Deanne
00:23:20
You know, how I was traditionally brought up, right?

Deanne
00:23:23
And how I was programmed, and I had to blow that up and completely come up with something, you know, refigure and reconnect.

Deanne
00:23:33
But that's mine, right?

Deanne
00:23:35
Like, that's not Connors.

Deanne
00:23:36
That's not the rest of my kids to figure out.

Deanne
00:23:38
Like, each person gets to have their own spiritual connection.

Deanne
00:23:41
And the way that they want to have a spiritual connection or not have one, that's their right.

Deanne
00:23:46
That's their prerogative.

Deanne
00:23:47
And so I think that that's such a.

Deanne
00:23:51
That is something that so many, you know, are queer kids.

Deanne
00:23:55
But I think, you know, many young people in general really identify with that.

Deanne
00:24:00
So bravo for adding that to the.

Deanne
00:24:04
To the Check, year, pronoun, zodiac.

Deanne
00:24:08
That's awesome.

Daniel Magler
00:24:10
But in, in the book, the Courage to Be Disliked, and I know it's a.

Daniel Magler
00:24:14
It's translation from a Japanese book, but they, they talk about the idea that, you know, Adler says that we need two real things to be happy.

Daniel Magler
00:24:23
One is a greater overall mission in life, and two is good interpersonal relationships.

Daniel Magler
00:24:27
And I think whether even no matter if a person is atheist or really part of Christianity or orthodox faith of some sort, it's all really just trying to explain, why are we here and what am I doing?

Daniel Magler
00:24:39
And for all people, it doesn't matter who you are.

Daniel Magler
00:24:42
You need that sense of mission and purpose.

Daniel Magler
00:24:44
And so for me, and again, realizing that through great suffering, we can maybe find what we were meant to do.

Daniel Magler
00:24:50
And I know for.

Daniel Magler
00:24:51
Again, for Patrick's family and for whatnot, like that idea of this, they would never choose this, but now they've taken this terrible situation and they've turned it into something.

Daniel Magler
00:25:01
And for me, and I think most therapists or social workers or people like that, they went through their own struggles or things like that.

Daniel Magler
00:25:07
And then saying, now how can I channel my pain into a learning that I can share for you, bringing the.

Daniel Magler
00:25:13
Taking this podcast and Connor's story and saying, how can I make this a mission so that we don't have to have anybody feeling like they're doing it wrong, that they're doing life incorrectly, because there isn't a single right way to do it.

Daniel Magler
00:25:26
And so that's why for me, and what I tell my own children is we just want.

Daniel Magler
00:25:32
I want everyone to feel.

Daniel Magler
00:25:34
I want to try to reduce the suffering on this planet.

Daniel Magler
00:25:36
No unnecessary suffering.

Daniel Magler
00:25:38
I think some suffering is necessary to help us become the people we need to be.

Daniel Magler
00:25:41
But that we don't need to.

Daniel Magler
00:25:42
Let's.

Daniel Magler
00:25:43
Let's not take.

Daniel Magler
00:25:44
You don't get extra points for suffering, so let's not add extra on that.

Daniel Magler
00:25:47
We don't.

Daniel Magler
00:25:48
And who is it serving and why am I carrying it along with me?

Daniel Magler
00:25:51
So let's try to figure out.

Daniel Magler
00:25:53
So whether, again, it doesn't matter what community you belong to.

Daniel Magler
00:25:55
We all belong to multiple communities.

Daniel Magler
00:25:57
My nephew, who came out as gay when he was 13, he's now 16, he actually got kind of a little irritated because we were so enthusiastic for his queerness that we were buying him rainbow this and everything else that.

Daniel Magler
00:26:08
And he's like, like, this is one aspect of who I am.

Daniel Magler
00:26:11
This is not the only aspect of who I am.

Daniel Magler
00:26:14
So sometimes in our enthusiasm for a person, oh, you're into skateboarding.

Daniel Magler
00:26:18
Everything's about skateboarding.

Daniel Magler
00:26:19
It's like, no, we all contain multitudes, right?

Daniel Magler
00:26:22
So letting that say, you know, just.

Daniel Magler
00:26:24
And then.

Daniel Magler
00:26:25
And then also our interests or our.

Daniel Magler
00:26:28
The degree to which we're impacted by a mental health disability or the degree to which where.

Daniel Magler
00:26:31
Where we're at, lining up in our identity can be fluid and we're all capable of change over time.

Daniel Magler
00:26:37
And we shouldn't act as if wait.

Daniel Magler
00:26:39
And so, so many parents are, well, my kid can't possibly be depressed because I saw them laughing with their friends the other day.

Daniel Magler
00:26:45
And it's.

Daniel Magler
00:26:45
Well, the same person who's really depressed can also have a positive moment.

Daniel Magler
00:26:49
Just like generally happy people can cry sometimes.

Daniel Magler
00:26:52
So allow.

Daniel Magler
00:26:53
Allowing for everybody to be fluid in all aspects of their life, you know, is something that we all.

Daniel Magler
00:27:00
Instead of deciding we want though people to fit into certain little boxes.

Daniel Magler
00:27:04
And.

Daniel Magler
00:27:05
And sometimes we're afraid with whether it's mental health diagnosis is like, oh, I'm bipolar.

Daniel Magler
00:27:10
No, you are a person who has bipolar disorder.

Daniel Magler
00:27:13
You know, a person.

Daniel Magler
00:27:13
You are not a depressed.

Daniel Magler
00:27:15
You know, you are a person might be, okay, I am gay or identify as a lesbian or whatnot.

Daniel Magler
00:27:20
And that's fine.

Daniel Magler
00:27:21
That's great.

Daniel Magler
00:27:21
If that's doing you, that's working for you.

Daniel Magler
00:27:24
Just like I am a Bears fan.

Daniel Magler
00:27:26
It's not really working for me, but I am still stuck eating one.

Daniel Magler
00:27:29
But again, that may.

Daniel Magler
00:27:30
That may be fluid.

Daniel Magler
00:27:31
My investment in the team may be fluid over time.

Daniel Magler
00:27:33
So I don't know.

Deanne
00:27:36
Bears fans are pretty.

Deanne
00:27:37
Pretty intense and die hard.

Daniel Magler
00:27:39
I mean, unfortunately, yes.

Daniel Magler
00:27:41
Whether I like still.

Deanne
00:27:42
Oh, my goodness.

Deanne
00:27:44
Well, I think, yes.

Deanne
00:27:45
I mean, that is such.

Deanne
00:27:46
Those are really, really great examples.

Deanne
00:27:49
And we are so complex.

Deanne
00:27:51
I mean, human.

Deanne
00:27:52
Humans are complex, right?

Deanne
00:27:55
And which is one of the most beautiful things.

Deanne
00:27:57
I think that's part of this.

Deanne
00:28:00
This growth is embracing that idea.

Deanne
00:28:06
And as we support our kids and embrace our kids, empower our kids through adolescence, whether it does include coming out as LGBTQIA or having a mental health disorder, helping them realize that I love that your nephew was the one who called you out on it.

Deanne
00:28:29
Right?

Deanne
00:28:32
Because that is something that.

Deanne
00:28:34
And especially at that age.

Deanne
00:28:35
Holy cow.

Deanne
00:28:36
I mean, he is a really mature kid.

Deanne
00:28:38
To be like, hey, this is just part of me.

Deanne
00:28:40
Like, it is not all of me.

Deanne
00:28:42
Because I think that is a very.

Deanne
00:28:44
That's part of the beginning of the coming out process.

Deanne
00:28:46
Right?

Deanne
00:28:47
Is where it is your complete identity.

Deanne
00:28:49
And I think that goes for also, you know, if you are, you know, really understanding, like, beginning to realize, okay, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, for example, I have anxiety that becomes my entire world because I'm trying to figure it out.

Deanne
00:29:08
I'm trying to figure out how.

Deanne
00:29:09
What are my coping mechanisms, what are my tools available to me, and then how do I just make that a piece?

Deanne
00:29:18
It's just a piece.

Deanne
00:29:20
And as I continue to work with it, it can become my superpower.

Deanne
00:29:25
And I've watched this with my.

Deanne
00:29:27
My girls especially, who each struggle with different types of mental health disorders.

Deanne
00:29:33
And.

Deanne
00:29:34
And even in the.

Deanne
00:29:34
Trying to figure out, like, okay, what.

Deanne
00:29:36
What exactly are you struggling with?

Deanne
00:29:40
What is the struggle?

Deanne
00:29:41
What is the disorder?

Deanne
00:29:42
How do we support.

Deanne
00:29:43
What do you.

Deanne
00:29:44
What support do you need here to get you here?

Deanne
00:29:48
Right?

Deanne
00:29:48
And then it's going to change again.

Deanne
00:29:50
Right.

Deanne
00:29:51
But I do appreciate you really fully illustrating how we are these beautiful, complex beings.

Deanne
00:30:00
And it's not necessary to cling to that one identity factor.

Deanne
00:30:06
Just one thing.

Daniel Magler
00:30:07
Well, that's for so many of the students I work with.

Daniel Magler
00:30:10
Right now, I'm working with 15 transgender gender non binary students on my caseload and things like, you know, if they're having a really bad day and mental health challenges, but they've also just started testosterone.

Daniel Magler
00:30:23
They can have this fear of, well, if I let my parents know that I'm struggling, maybe they're going to second guess their decision to help me start taking T.

Daniel Magler
00:30:33
And, you know, and then also, one of my guys, he.

Daniel Magler
00:30:36
He also had a really bad ear infection this week.

Daniel Magler
00:30:38
It was like, okay, just because wouldn't it be great in a scientific study we could say, okay, we only have one variable.

Deanne
00:30:45
Right?

Daniel Magler
00:30:46
Unfortunately, life does not work that way.

Daniel Magler
00:30:48
Like, yes, you have to deal with the ear infection while you're also starting testosterone, and you might also be struggling with your anxiety really badly.

Daniel Magler
00:30:55
And for this guy, like, where he just.

Daniel Magler
00:30:58
He just got a new.

Daniel Magler
00:30:59
His parents got him a new emotional support animal.

Daniel Magler
00:31:01
His.

Daniel Magler
00:31:01
His bunny that he had hoped to take to college one day died.

Daniel Magler
00:31:06
And, and so, you know, then.

Daniel Magler
00:31:07
Then, okay, well, now let's try a cat.

Daniel Magler
00:31:09
Well, the first cat that they tried, and this was not.

Daniel Magler
00:31:12
He didn't do it through Prosser Patrick.

Daniel Magler
00:31:13
They just did it on their own.

Daniel Magler
00:31:14
I did encourage them to, but the first cat would just kept biting his head in the middle of the night.

Daniel Magler
00:31:18
This little kitten, super cute.

Daniel Magler
00:31:20
But if we're not getting good sleep while we're also having mental health challenges, like, that wasn't working.

Daniel Magler
00:31:25
And then the grief of, oh, no, I'm a terrible person because I can't.

Daniel Magler
00:31:29
They ended up swapping out cats at the place where the shelter.

Daniel Magler
00:31:33
And the shelter was great about it, but all the feeling of, I'm such a failure now.

Daniel Magler
00:31:36
I'm abandoning this cat and whatnot.

Daniel Magler
00:31:38
So, again, our lives, as you say, that complexity, but again, for so many, particularly of the LGBTQIA kids, it's like, that's one more aspect.

Daniel Magler
00:31:49
It is one.

Daniel Magler
00:31:50
And it's.

Daniel Magler
00:31:51
But there was a great experience recent.

Daniel Magler
00:31:53
This last week, we had a student who.

Daniel Magler
00:31:56
She was recently diagnosed with freshman, but finally recently diagnosed with autism.

Daniel Magler
00:32:00
And she's like, I've been kind of knowing this about myself for a while.

Daniel Magler
00:32:03
She has major depressive disorder, anxiety and autism, and her parents are trying to come to terms with that.

Daniel Magler
00:32:08
And she just also decided to finally come out to her parents this last week.

Daniel Magler
00:32:14
Yeah.

Daniel Magler
00:32:15
So parents are kind of reeling with a lot of that, and they've.

Daniel Magler
00:32:18
All they really wanted was her to have some friends, because making friends has been super difficult.

Daniel Magler
00:32:24
But the great thing is that now joining that LGBTQ group, those kids have been such a welcoming community, and we have a number of students who are, you know, and again, that particularly our Arrow Ace kids are.

Daniel Magler
00:32:38
Several of them are on the spectrum.

Daniel Magler
00:32:40
And so it's like the.

Daniel Magler
00:32:41
Some kids who are really understanding and open to and supportive of people who are, you know, maybe built a little bit differently and saying like that as opposed to.

Daniel Magler
00:32:50
So I almost.

Daniel Magler
00:32:51
I.

Daniel Magler
00:32:52
We're joking.

Daniel Magler
00:32:53
Her older sister also, at times struggled with building friendships and whatnot.

Daniel Magler
00:32:57
We were joking.

Daniel Magler
00:32:58
Like, yeah, I wish your poor older sister had been queer, because she could have had this community.

Daniel Magler
00:33:01
She's stuck being heterosexual, so she doesn't have that.

Daniel Magler
00:33:04
That helps support her.

Daniel Magler
00:33:07
Just.

Daniel Magler
00:33:07
But, yeah, so.

Daniel Magler
00:33:09
So sometimes having all those things at once can feel terrible, but at other times, we can realize that there is a.

Daniel Magler
00:33:16
For each one of these aspects of who I am, there's a community where I can find connection and strength.

Daniel Magler
00:33:21
And whenever possible, can we flip that dilemma on its head and start to say no?

Daniel Magler
00:33:26
Now, that's not to say we can't mourn the sadness of the way we thought things were going to go, that they're not going to go that way.

Daniel Magler
00:33:34
But at the same time, now, after mourning that for a little bit, now let's say, okay, but how.

Daniel Magler
00:33:39
Where is the new opportunity that's hiding within this dilemma?

Deanne
00:33:42
Right.

Deanne
00:33:43
Well, and I, you know, I think that is a vitally important piece that I do.

Deanne
00:33:51
I wish I would have thought of this earlier when we were talking, because it is something that I do talk about a lot, which is the morning of the movie reel, and it's not just for parents to do when their child comes out.

Deanne
00:34:01
It's for any human being to do when their life, you know, changes in some way that they weren't initially.

Deanne
00:34:08
Which, I mean, let's be.

Deanne
00:34:10
Let's be honest.

Deanne
00:34:10
I mean, who's desert to some degree, right?

Deanne
00:34:14
But I think it is very important to have that mourning period.

Deanne
00:34:18
And that doesn't mean that you're in denial or that you're angry or that you're.

Deanne
00:34:22
I mean, you could be, but it just means that's a very important, important piece to allow yourself that sadness, to allow yourself that grief so that you can then move forward.

Deanne
00:34:33
And so nothing to feel shame, you know, ashamed about or, you know, feel shame about.

Deanne
00:34:41
So there was a book, too, that popped into my head that I love, love, love.

Deanne
00:34:48
It's called Differently Wired.

Daniel Magler
00:34:50
Okay.

Deanne
00:34:51
And I've had the.

Deanne
00:34:52
Actually, the author on.

Deanne
00:34:54
She was my book coach as well, and she wrote this beautiful book, and her.

Deanne
00:34:59
Her child is on the spectrum, is.

Deanne
00:35:02
Is not lgbtqia, but the.

Deanne
00:35:05
This book is.

Deanne
00:35:06
I recommend it to everybody who has a kid who's differently wired because it's really just a lovely way not only to realize the support pieces, but to really understand kind of the scientific side.

Deanne
00:35:22
Right.

Deanne
00:35:22
And just to understand some of these, you know, chemical things that are going on and all of this type of stuff.

Deanne
00:35:28
So that's my right.

Daniel Magler
00:35:30
I actually literally wrote that one down.

Deanne
00:35:31
So we're taking turns here.

Deanne
00:35:34
I have, like, a ton of things.

Deanne
00:35:35
I'm like, oh, that's a good one.

Deanne
00:35:36
Oh, I need to recommend that.

Deanne
00:35:38
That's great.

Deanne
00:35:39
Well, I want to be respectful of your time, and I did want to ask just, you know, as for your recommendations, because I know you are a huge podcast listener and just working with so closely with LGBTQIA teenagers first, podcast recommendations second.

Deanne
00:36:01
Any advice that you would give to parents?

Daniel Magler
00:36:07
Well, so I'll start with yes.

Daniel Magler
00:36:09
I mean, I could go on forever about podcasts.

Daniel Magler
00:36:11
I love.

Daniel Magler
00:36:11
I think for anything by Brene Brown is you're always going to be going the right direction.

Daniel Magler
00:36:15
So whether it's unlocking us or dare to lead, understanding the science behind vulnerability, shame, and whatnot is great.

Daniel Magler
00:36:23
The Happiness Lab is with Lori Santos really beneficial.

Daniel Magler
00:36:28
I, again, for some people, you and I have talked.

Daniel Magler
00:36:31
We're both fans of Dan Savage, but for some people, it's a lot.

Daniel Magler
00:36:35
But I do think, you know, he will make you think.

Daniel Magler
00:36:38
And so the Savage Love Podcast is going to push your boundaries and think about things that you have never occurred to you before.

Daniel Magler
00:36:45
And so the great Thing is, he doesn't expect listeners to always agree with him.

Daniel Magler
00:36:49
And he has people who, you know, I love how he has people come on and take him to task about different things.

Daniel Magler
00:36:54
But so those are just some that I start with.

Daniel Magler
00:36:57
Nico Barraza is another podcaster who, gosh, what's the blank on the name of his podcast?

Daniel Magler
00:37:04
I'll get it to you.

Daniel Magler
00:37:05
But just like again, oh, starve the ego, feed the soul.

Daniel Magler
00:37:09
And that one was one that was.

Daniel Magler
00:37:11
And recommended to me by some of my students.

Daniel Magler
00:37:15
So that, like, just again, I always love the ones that are recommended to me by my clients or whatnot because, oh, they must be on to something there.

Deanne
00:37:21
Yes, exactly.

Deanne
00:37:23
Well, I mean, what better way to understand if we're listening to what our, our kids are listening to, right?

Deanne
00:37:28
I mean, that is a good way to understand, just another little piece of understanding and, and, you know, learning.

Deanne
00:37:35
So I love that.

Deanne
00:37:36
And then, you know, working with.

Deanne
00:37:39
You've already shared so much about working with things that you learn from the kids and the kids share with you.

Deanne
00:37:45
But what are just some really key takeaways for parents who either their child has just come out to them or they're going into the holidays?

Deanne
00:37:57
What are some things that the kids really want their parents to know?

Daniel Magler
00:38:03
Well, again, first of all, and that to listen to your kids and to speak with them directly about how relationships and to make your kid feel like they are the priority over any other of these external relationships.

Daniel Magler
00:38:16
I know one of my clients, his younger sibling came out as trans and just decided that didn't want to have, didn't want to do holidays with some other parts of the family who had shown they'd never said anything overtly homophobic.

Daniel Magler
00:38:29
But they have been really judgmental about other racial groups and things like that.

Daniel Magler
00:38:34
And this younger sibling, and the sibling is gender non binary.

Daniel Magler
00:38:38
And so saying like, I don't want to.

Daniel Magler
00:38:41
You can tell them I came out or whatnot, but I don't want to interact with these people because they've made me feel just generally unsafe.

Daniel Magler
00:38:47
And as a family, just honoring that and not saying, well, we need to suck it up for grandma or do anything else like that.

Daniel Magler
00:38:53
I do think grandmas get underrated and what they can handle.

Daniel Magler
00:38:57
I mean, when we think about, if we just do some math, a lot of grandmas were like Woodstock level age, you know, so they were probably doing some other things in their youth.

Daniel Magler
00:39:04
So I think we should give them a little bit more credit and stop trying to protect everyone.

Daniel Magler
00:39:08
But mainly taking things at the pace of the kids and honoring that and making sure that if they, if that kid needs to not go to certain other family members homes, that okay, we can make another plan, we can make things smaller because we want to make you feel like you are not a burden, an add on and that anybody who doesn't accept these things about you is, you know, we're not going to prioritize their feelings over yours is that really, really hurts for a lot of the kids.

Daniel Magler
00:39:36
So that's something I think just having those frank discussions and saying, and it's okay to not know the answer.

Daniel Magler
00:39:41
It's okay to say, hey, we're still working through this.

Daniel Magler
00:39:44
Kids are.

Daniel Magler
00:39:45
Teachers are all the time talking to me about, oh no, I'm afraid I'm going to mess up so and so's pronouns or I did it.

Daniel Magler
00:39:50
The kids are always incredibly forgiving if they feel like your heart is in the right place and you're trying.

Daniel Magler
00:39:55
And so as long as you are saying, hey, here's where I'm at right now and let me think about.

Daniel Magler
00:40:01
You might have to give me some time to think about how I need to handle this conversation, this other thing.

Daniel Magler
00:40:06
But at the end of the day, the most important thing to me is that you feel supported.

Daniel Magler
00:40:10
Then kids are, they're elated.

Daniel Magler
00:40:12
But it's when they feel like.

Daniel Magler
00:40:14
It's when they feel like they are something that may be an object of shame that needs to be hidden away in some direction that, that causes lasting scars and feelings of embarrassment and shame.

Daniel Magler
00:40:27
So these kids are, they've been carrying so much of this for so long and that's what we, we often forget when we're saying, hey, are you sure this, that by the time a kid tells a parent or any other family member that they think they might be queer, Trust me, they've been wrestling with it.

Daniel Magler
00:40:41
But, and the vast majority of them, part of the queer experience generally is an ongoing questioning.

Daniel Magler
00:40:48
And even in the queer community, things like, and I know you talked about on your podcast about bisexuality or more and more kids identifying as being pansexual because, you know, again, it's something that it's, it's a pro.

Daniel Magler
00:40:59
There's nothing wrong with continuing to be fluid and figure things out and to have things change.

Daniel Magler
00:41:05
So it doesn't mean that the person wasn't sure and it doesn't mean any damage will occur.

Daniel Magler
00:41:09
And I think that's.

Daniel Magler
00:41:10
Parents have this fear.

Daniel Magler
00:41:11
It's like they're nervous as if their kid was getting a tattoo on their forehead of like, okay, I am this.

Daniel Magler
00:41:16
And it's like, no, we don't.

Daniel Magler
00:41:17
We don't have to lock in.

Daniel Magler
00:41:18
It's okay to just one day at a time.

Daniel Magler
00:41:21
So that's what I guess I would advise them.

Deanne
00:41:24
Perfect.

Deanne
00:41:25
I could not have said it any better.

Deanne
00:41:26
It's beautiful.

Deanne
00:41:27
Thank you.

Deanne
00:41:28
And so important.

Deanne
00:41:30
And so, you know, it's part of that shifting from the focus on the external and the fear.

Deanne
00:41:39
And really, once you shift that and kind of let that go and have your focus be your kid, it makes things so much easier and really takes the anxiety level down.

Deanne
00:41:51
So.

Deanne
00:41:52
Great.

Deanne
00:41:53
Well, thank you.

Deanne
00:41:54
Thank you so much for being on my show.

Deanne
00:41:58
I appreciate it and I'm so, so.

Deanne
00:42:00
I'm just really thrilled that everyone has gotten to hear all of this.

Deanne
00:42:04
This is just a fantastic amount of information and.

Deanne
00:42:08
And so different and needed.

Deanne
00:42:10
So thank you.

Deanne
00:42:11
Thank you for sharing and for everything that you do every single day.

Daniel Magler
00:42:16
Well, thank you for the opportunity to come and spread the word, particularly about Pause or Patrick.

Daniel Magler
00:42:21
And if people want to, they should, please go to the website@paws for patrick.org I used to say pastorpatrick.org but then somebody made it sound like I was.

Daniel Magler
00:42:30
They thought I was saying orgy, which would be more of a Dan Savage thing.

Daniel Magler
00:42:33
So, anyway, but so it's posturepatrick.org if you think that that might help you.

Daniel Magler
00:42:38
And yeah, thank you.

Deanne
00:42:40
We'll never forget that now.

Daniel Magler
00:42:43
So thank you, though, for letting me come on and talk about that.

Daniel Magler
00:42:45
I really appreciate it.

Deanne
00:42:46
Of course.

Deanne
00:42:47
And then really quickly again, your podcast, if you.

Daniel Magler
00:42:49
My podcast is not allowed to die, and it's on Apple podcast and Spotify.

Daniel Magler
00:42:54
You can find it at either of those.

Deanne
00:42:56
Awesome.

Deanne
00:42:56
All right, well, this will all be in the show notes as well, so you can click through and check it all out.

Deanne
00:43:02
So, Dan, thank you so much and have a great, great rest of your weekend.

Daniel Magler
00:43:07
You too.

Heather Hester
00:43:09
Thanks so much for joining me today.

Heather Hester
00:43:12
If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review.

Heather Hester
00:43:19
Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Heather Hester
00:43:32
Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.

Heather Hester
00:43:38
And remember to just breathe until.

Heather Hester
00:43:42
Till next time.