Dr. Rola Hallam | The Healing Power of Divine Remembrance

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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall
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and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
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authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
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leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
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and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
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is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
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helping you find alignment with the person you are always
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meant to be. Let's get started. My name is doctor
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Fleet Maall, your co host for this session, and I'm
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very happy to be here today with Rolla Hallam.
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Welcome, roll up, thank you, thank you for having me.
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Well, I've been looking for this conversation. So before we
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got started here, we were talking about how your sort
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of family linage is out of spiritual healers, and your
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father became a medical doctor and that kind of pivoted
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your family towards science, and you followed it in as
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foststeps and became a medical doctor. But you've never lost
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track of those spiritual roots, and you're kind of coming
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full circle now. In particular, today you're going to be
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sharing your wisdom from the Sufi tradition. So I wonder
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if you could share with us, just to get us started,
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if there's some particular event in your life that made
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precipitated you turning more towards the inner or the spiritual
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part of life, whether earlier in your life or it's
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something more recent but at different times. And I'm curious
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how that's been for you.
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Great question. Well, actually, I would say that what first
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attracted me to meditation, and now we're talking about fifteen
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years ago, it was more my health and wellness. I
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was the thick of the height of the war on
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civilians in Syria, or I was there, you know, as
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a frontline health and aid worker, And it was really
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my insomnia and the sort of edges of bana that
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first got me to meditate. And for quite some time
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my practice was transcendental meditation for health and wellness reasons
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that soon developed into more of a spiritual seeking practice.
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And I actually then at that point found Buddhism and
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at one point took my buddies up for abows. And
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actually for quite a few years my practice was more
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rooted in Buddhist traditions. But it would be about six
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years ago when I had what I called my Sufi awakening,
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and I had quite an incredible experience. I was sitting
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talking to my husband, I think we may have even
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been watching TV, and suddenly I was lifted, gotten up,
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and I just heard myself say, I'm going to pray.
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And I hadn't prayed fleet in several years, and this
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had not been precipitated by any inkling, by any thought.
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There was literally went like something was switched on a button,
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that a light that came on, and suddenly it was like,
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I'm getting up to pray, and I prayed, and I
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haven't stopped praying since then. And so if you're like,
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that was really the moment where I was like, I
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need to know about this God. I need to know
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about this divine power. I need to know about this
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ability to get me up and throw something in my heart.
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I yearning a longing that honestly wasn't at all a
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flame in the way that it was just five minutes earlier.
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Wow. And I think in the past you've also spoken
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about at some point so having the experience of losing
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your voice, and I wonder how that also played in
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her spiritual journey.
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Yeah, So if this experience that I just debscribed to
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you was sort of the awakening. Really what got me
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to be the practitioner and the teacher I am now
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is exactly what you're talking about. So back in twenty
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twenty one, I experienced what I now call my Valley
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of darkness. I thought it was a severe burn out
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at the time. It was that, but it was also
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I think a dark knight of the soul. And I
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had been a humanitarian, a doctor for them by then
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ten years, and it was that paralyzing state, that existential
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crisis state that would actually get me to go to
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that next level of questioning who am I? And what
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am I? And why am I here right, the very
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existential questions that so many of us go through. And
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it was at that point that I as alongside reaching
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for more body based techniques and more you know, emotional
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and cognitive techniques, that I really realized that these were deficient.
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We had a spiritual approach as well, and so it
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was at that point that I was guided by God's
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messy to start meditating on God's ninety nine names. In
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Islam and Suphism will say that God has ninety nine names,
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and ninety nine names essentially refers to the infinite number
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of names, right, And it was at that point that
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I shifted my meditative practice from more of the compassion
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base and method based practices to the zike of one
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of God's ninety nine names. And that would really be
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a most transformative experience for me at not just my
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physical and mental emotional level, but of course at my
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spiritual level as well well.
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Again, before we got started, I mentioned I've had the
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pleasure and the gift of participating in a number of
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zickers or Sufi services, if you will, and this chanting
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of the ninety nine names and so forth, And I
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believe for you, being a healer, there's a vibrational healing
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quality involved in the chanting and the prayer and so forth.
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And I wonder if you could talk about how that's
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been healing for you, and then how you see yourself
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bringing that into your own healing work, which is really
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what your life has been all about on many levels,
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but now in this way grounded in the Sufi spirituality
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and the chanting and this kind of which can be
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a kind of vibrational medicine.
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Absolutely. I know what was interesting. I think I remember
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when I was younger being told that that put on
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is a sacred sound and that it's meant to be recited.
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It's not meant to be read silently. It's meant that
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the power of it can only really fully come out
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when it is verbalized, when it is actually recited. And
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I remember, honestly just being so ignorant that I kind
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of dismissed that. I'm like, how could that possibly make
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a difference? And it would only take days of me
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starting to do the zicho practice to realize WHOA how
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ignorant and naive I had been set. If you have
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experienced that, you will know when I'm talking about. I
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would experience the different names vibrating in a different chakra,
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and it was just like how a chiropractor can kind
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of move your body to kind of get it into
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an alignment. I could feel the sound codes and the
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vibration shifting and moving things within such that suddenly, you know,
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you would be kind of doing the zea and you're
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just sitting there and you're repeating the name like Yadrahman
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yah Rahman, and then suddenly I might have an emotional outbust,
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like out of nowhere, you would start sobbing a huge
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emotional release or out of nowhere. You would have memories, images,
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maybe even visions. So it was an experience by which
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it wasn't just that you are just simply reciting it,
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but you could see the medicine working in action, sometimes
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at a physical level, sometimes at an emotional level, sometimes
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at a cognitive level. But it was vibrating through me
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and shifting and moving things, allowing me to therefore get
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into a state of greater integration after much disintegration.
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How do you you know, how do you understand your
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direct experience of that from the perspective of your many
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many years of medical training and medical practice, and as
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well as I know that you weren't rounded in a
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narrow definition of your medical of allopathic medicine, but you
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are more broadly involved in healing work and so forth.
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But you're deeply grounded in the science, so in our
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understanding of neurophysiology and biology and medical science as well
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as you know, in the world of integrated medicine, a
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little more broad view of medicine. Again, how do we
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understand the healing effect of this vibrational medicine?
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Yes, absolutely so, there's a huge amount of science behind that.
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So the science of sounds. So let's say, let's first
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of all ground it in the nervous system, right, Sound
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as a nervous system regulator, as getting our nervous system
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into a greater resonance. When we activate our vocal cord,
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we're activating our vegas nerve. And the vegas nerve is
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that nerve that gets us into a parasympathetic state, shifts
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us out of a sympathetic or the fight and flight state, right,
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So that's helping us to get into a grounded and
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calm state. That's why a lot of the time you
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might notice that humming or sighing, even all those things
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that activate sound in the vocal cord can actually help
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to create that great state of release and calmness. There's
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also what's called the entrainment effect, which is when we chant,
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our brain waves actually synchronized with the rhythm of the sound,
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and so we kind of get into a meditative and
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in expanded state of consciousness, a shift from the detail,
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which is the more thinking, to the alpha, more calmed
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focus and even more into theater deep meditative brain waves.
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And of course, yes, there's like the emotional and the
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psychological shifts that happens like I already mentioned about, like
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huge emotional blockage and release, like stuck energy trauma gets
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wedged in our nervous system, but also in our muscula
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chair and in our the various bodies that we have
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right the energetic body as well as the physical body.
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And so there is the emotional release, the shift of
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emotions as this vibrations move through us. Not to mention,
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I think for me the spiritual component, as you said,
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so that is when we are activating sacred sound, not
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just any sound, but the sacred sound, we are connecting
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to our higher state of being, and we are connecting
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to the divine within and without. And so it is
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said that these names have an encoded sacred sound within them,
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which is all about bringing us back into a state
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of oneness, into a state of oneness, into a state
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of wholeness, which for me is what healing is all about.
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What a transformation isn't just about thinking differently, but feeling differently.
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Science shows us that true change happens when we align
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not just our minds, but also the neural networks in
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our hearts and guts. This heart mind connection is the
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key to deeper healing. Resilience and expanded awareness. That's why
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I created the Heart Mind all access, membership and community,
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join us. Clip the link to learn more and start
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your journey today. Well Interestingly enough, especially those in our
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audience who are parents and especially mothers, you know that
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early bonding experience. It's the infant and the mother or
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the surrogate parent. You know, it's so foundation to our
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healthy attachment to begin with. Our foundation in life is
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that coregulation between the infant and the mother. And of
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course that's physical holding and it's the I gave, but
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it's also very much sound, right. And we know traditionally
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the way mothers kind of very melodically sing and cool
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and talk to the young infant, right, And there's that
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melodic voice which is foundational to the initial coregulation that
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gets our nervous system into a healthy begin with, and
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give us that foundation of healthy attachment.
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Right.
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So you know, some of us have attachment wounds and
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issues from childhood, and there's all kinds of other traumas
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that can, even if we've had healthy attachment, can then
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get us in a state of dysregulation. So that sound
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can be very much part of moving from a disregulated
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nervous system back into a well regulated nervous system and
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repatterning so that that's sustainable.
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Absolutely, and before that, even the sound of the heartbeat
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in the maternal room, right. And so sound has been
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something that has been there from our very early journey
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and absolutely into that childhood and therefore.
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After that wonderful. So how does that work in terms
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that you said you were experiencing burnout and exhaustion from
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your work. So what did your process of healing and
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the kind of rebalancing of your own nervous system feel
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like through the chanting in the Sufi tradition.
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So I think it's important to say that I believe
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God gave us so many tools and so that we
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can use them holistically. We are a body and therefore
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we need to look after our physical body, and we
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have our emotions and our mental state and cognitive state
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as well as our spiritual state. And so for me,
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when I think about my own healing and my own
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healing journey or whether the one that I guide through
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with other clients is really about what does a holistic
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approach to it look like? Right? And there they do
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not displace each other. They overlap with each other, they
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are complimentary, but they do not replace each other. So
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I think it's really important that we do do the
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NAVI system regulation work right that maybe even there's some
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other body work that we need to do, somatic therapy
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or other bodywork. I did a lot of massage in chiropractice,
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for example, and acupressure and acupuncture is part of my healing.
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For me, the chanting and the spiritual practice was a
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way in which I found the greatest therapist.
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Absolutely, I think that's so important to not get you know,
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narrow minded, like there's one silver bullet or something and
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that's the only way. But really, I think this holistic,
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integrative approach where we can really bring because we live
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at a time in life, incredible time to be alive,
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where we have access to all the ancient yogic traditions,
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all the great contemplative traditions, technology, spiritual technologies over thousands
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of years, and the human traditions across the planet. And
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then we have you know, everything going on in current
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neuroscience and positive psychology and even quantum theory. I mean,
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and we can integrate all of this to really optimize
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our healings. So it's an amazing time to be And yeah,
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depth sometimes it seems the greatest depth is available to
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us that maybe the and I don't want to necessarily
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be too biased here because I think there are modern
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technologies that could end up taking someone very deep. But
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it seems like in some ways inevitably we find our
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way into the depth of various spiritual traditions that have
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really created some pathways that provide tremendous depth that have
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been developed over thousands of years really, and I know
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in the Cyncy tradition it has very much to do
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with the heart and the pathway of the heart, the
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way of the heart, and we can probably talk about
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that in the sense of the normal associations we all
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have with the heart, but that could probably go into
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the neural physiology and what we know about the neural
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networks of the heart to Briain you know, yeah, skull
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encapsulated brain as well, neural networks and heart today and
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neural networks in the gut. And the fact that in
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many of the Eastern traditions the seated, the mind or
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the soul is often here is a post up here.
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This is the operating system for the brain. Like in
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Buddhism you mentioned before when we do a lot of
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ceremonies and rituals around which we talk about body, speech
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and mind. Right, this is body, this is speech. Mind
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is here at the heart level. Right. So I wonder
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if you could talk both about the Sufi tradition as
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the way of the heart, and then also if you're
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willing to talk about the role of the kind of
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the process by which one enters the Sufi tradition taking
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hand and this idea, and you know what is the
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entryway into the Sufi tradition was the overall Sufi path,
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so to look like and feel with.
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So let me stop by saying that one of the
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hadiths that are which is like saying that is attributed
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to the word of God is he says, the whole
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universe cannot contain me, but the heart of a believer can. Okay,
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So that is very much God telling us that I
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am in your heart. So can you imagine the incredible
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and infinite ability of the human heart. It contains God.
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The whole universe cannot contain God, but the heart of
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a believer, of someone who believes in trusting God, that
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contains it. So that's the importance of the heart. And
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of course we're not talking necessarily just the physical heart,
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but we're talking about the spiritual heart, the culb in
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Arabic as it's called, but anatomical and non anatomical manifestations.
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Right now, the beautiful things about the ninety nine names
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is that they are different attributes of God. Right, so
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we say that or not, we say, God says, so
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half of them are his jalal names, which is his
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names of power, and half of them are his Jerman name,
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the names of beauty. And so when you are invoking
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one of those names, you are, of course, first of all,
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calling on God.
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You are.
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It's a worshipful act. It's a way of saying, I
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want to connect to you, God, and you wanting to
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know this particular aspect. And so you might be calling
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on a Rahman in your heart, and a Rahman is
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the merciful the passions, or you might be calling on
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a Gelal, which is the powerful one. So you might
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be calling on different names. And part of it is
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to get to know God, but it's also meant to
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be to cultivate that quality in your heart and in yourself.
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And so it is not just to get to know
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God as a great being outside of us, but it's
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also to cultivate that in our very own hearts, in
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our own character, in our own ways, so that we
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are starting to embody those same names. So we are
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starting to embody the same power, the same knowledge, the
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same beauty, right, And so it is a way of
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getting to know God and connecting to God, but it's
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also a way of getting to know ourselves. And so
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if you like, it bridges spiritual development with personal development.
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And of course the seat of all of that is
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in the heart. You may have mentioned all of that
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outside in you know, verbalize it in a vibrational sense,
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in a vocal sense, but it has to come from
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your heart. So that brings me to the point of sincerity,
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sincerity in our act, the sincerity in wanting that divine connection, right,
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that sincerity in wanting to know God and to know
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ourselves and to be our best selves for the sake
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of God and for the sake of each other, for
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the sake of the whole universe, right, for the sake
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of each other. That's for the Creator and all of creation.
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And that's a sincere act of the heart. And of
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course only God knows what's in our hearts.
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And I think you and the civic tradition also uses
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the expression divine remembrance. And so I'm wondering if this,
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you know, I think many of the deep spiritual traditions
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point to that that we've actually never been separated from
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the divine, that it is our essential nature, and it's
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so it's not something out there that we have to
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get that it really is our essence, and it's really
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more a question of remembering. And so that the chanting practice,
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the zicker practice, and prayer and so forth can really
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just be a practice of remembering. And I wonder if
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you can speak of it in that light.
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Yeah, and Fleet, I feel like this is exactly the
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point where I feel spiritual awakening overlaps with trauma healing,
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because I believe that certainly has been my experience, and
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it's been an experience of so many of my clients,
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that it was our early developmental traumas that actually make
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us feel believe that we are separate from God. And
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in fact, for so many of us, our early traumas
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gave us such a deeply profound sense of abandonment that
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many of us turn away from God because we are
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so angry at God for having supposedly forsaken us. Right,
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And so that if you think about trauma, I think
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of trauma as a fracture, as separateness moving away from
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And so that remembrance, that bringing that ziki, that bringing
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that the remembrance of names is almost like remembering that,
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oh my God, No, I was never abandoned. God has
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always been here. And it's this way of bringing us
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back to God, back to ourselves, back to this wholeness,
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back to this oneness. And it really is a remembrance
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exactly as you said. But I think this is exactly
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where trauma heating overlaps with the spiritual practice and why
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they are so powerful when they are managed together or
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when they come together.
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Yeah, it just suddenly reminded me my Zen teacher Bernie Glassman,
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who was well known for integrating Zen and social action
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humanitarian work, kind of work you do, and who founded
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the Bearing Witness retreats, And there's a film about the
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first Bearing Witness retreat at Auschwitz I think in nineteen
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ninety six, I believe, and the retreats have continued ever since.
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I've been one of the leaders there for the last
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twenty two years, I think. And at any rate, in
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his filmmate, he was talking about bearing witness and talking
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about remembering, and he talks about remembering in a sense
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of remember to make whole again. I just remember that
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when you were speaking about there's this initial break, this
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fracture caused by trauma that then creates this separation and
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separates us from our essence and disconnects us from God.
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Or a trust in the divine or fates in the divine,
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or fates in our own divine essence. And so this
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is really about remembering to make whole again, to come
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back together and reconnect that which has been disconnected absolutely.
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And you know, one of the names is El Shaheed,
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which is the witness, and it's a really powerful name
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to invoke for us to really start to rewitness ourselves.
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And it starts from witnessing ourselves. How much you know,
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we were talking and we touched about banner and trauma before,
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in myself and in others, especially when we've been disregulated
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from an early stage, we don't know how to witness ourselves,
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how to witness our emotions, how to witness our thoughts. Right,
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we get taught to deny, to ignore, you know, to
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take various different substances or whatever it is in order
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to numb our pain. We don't get taught how to
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be with right, and not only how to be with
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but that we are a witness. We are not them,
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We are not even that rain, We are not even
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that trauma. Right, we are that light, that spirit that
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is experiencing that and is in connection with it. And
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so that witnessing is such a deep, profound healing shift
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when we can call on that in ourselves and for others,
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absolutely really important. And I think, if I may, you know,
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I feel like for so many of us, whether you
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are from an Abrahamic religion or from any other deep
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spiritual practice, I feel like there is an inadequacy of
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the Western psychology model for trauma healing. Many of us
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don't find ourselves there, or rather we find it a
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useful tool if it is in a holistic way, integrated
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with other things. But for so many of us we
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found that God has been thrown out with the bathwater,
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and there's very little room, it seems, for the spiritual healing.
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And actually I know from myself and from very many
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others that some of us are actually afraid to even
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bring the scientific and the spiritual together, you know, because
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of just the quickness with which someone has labeled WU
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and discredited for actually daring to say no, there is
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the physical and the metaphysical, There is the body, but
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there is our heart and there is the spiritual, and
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how do we bring that together? And for my work
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in Syria and with frontline health workers and aid workers there,
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I know that their spiritual and religious beliefs have been
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a central pillar of their resilience, right, not just for healing,
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but for how they have been able to bear witness
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back to your point, that is what has given them
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strength in their mission and in what they are here
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to do.
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And we live in a time we go through various
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evolutionary eras as humanity on the planet, and they're all
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necessary and they're correcting one and then they go to
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the extreme, and we're in this kind of era of postmodernism,
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which the primary characteristic of which is deconstructionism. And it's
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deconstructed a lot of things that do create oppression and
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systemic suffering of all kinds, but it ends up kind
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of deconstructing everything into kind of a neolistic, a materialistic,
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neolistic view, which I think is fairly endemic in our
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society today and separates us from the deepest resource we
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all have, the very depth of our spirituality and our
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spiritual being and the spiritual realities, right and so, and
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you know, interestingly enough, if you read some of the
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personal writings of many great scientists, even who are you know,
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on the surface are publicly they're scientific atheists, and so forth.
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If you read their personal writings. They're all finding their
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way into some deep mysticism. Because the deeper you go,
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whether you're going deep into your own body, you're going
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deep into your own mind, or whether you're going deep
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into studying the material universe, eventually you get into the
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unmanifest realm, right, And you find that the unmanifested realm
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is not just a neolistic emptiness. It's the place of
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the heart. It's the place of being and energy and
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love and the ultimate source of all. Right. So, I
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think we all find the way there. But unfortunately we're
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in a time when there's a kind of a secular
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agreement to to almost deny that or something and associate
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it with things that are as you said, wo wo
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or something like that. Right, So, and you know, I
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think it can separate us from the deepest source of
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our healing. You mentioned before, the Bicker practice with the
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chanting of the ninety nine names of God of Allah
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and the vibrational quality at this vibrational medicine, and a
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way that can open up different parts of our neweology,
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or even at the kind of subtle level if we
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use the language of chakras or whatever. The energy set
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is in the body, there can be these emotional releases,
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and that can be I would soon part of the
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healing process of traumas as well, that these emotional releases.
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But then having an emotional release in a container of
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like a zicker, I would I think is a little
480
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.559
not that it can be very powerful and benefits like healing.
481
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:07.400
They have an emotional release on the couso to speak
482
00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:10.680
or in a therapy session, but having it in the
483
00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:13.640
midst of that spiritual container of the zicker seems to
484
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:18.000
be a uniquely powerful place to allow these things to
485
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:21.079
release themselves and to witness them to be held within
486
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:25.759
some greater spiritual containers. I'm curious about your thoughts about
487
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:27.559
I think.
488
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:31.880
That our nervous system is neuro sets right. It can
489
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:36.079
tell it judges when it feels safe and when it
490
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:38.720
doesn't feel safe right. That's the job of the nervous system.
491
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:43.319
And I believe that when we are in any kind
492
00:27:43.359 --> 00:27:46.200
of suckle, regardless of whether it's for a spiritual reason
493
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:48.519
or a healing reason, you know, we're able to kind
494
00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:51.480
of judge how safe do I feel right? How much
495
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:53.640
can I drop my God? And how much do you
496
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.799
drop down your protection? And so we allow this as
497
00:27:56.839 --> 00:27:59.720
what you know, the safety of the atmosphere and the
498
00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:03.000
cana that has been created. And then there's also like
499
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:05.359
the grace of God that is going to visit you,
500
00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:09.079
and I believe will always give you what you need
501
00:28:09.200 --> 00:28:12.920
when you need. So I don't want anybody listening here
502
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:16.000
to think, oh my God, if I go to you know, join,
503
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:19.119
I don't know one hundred others in remembrance, I'm going
504
00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.960
to suddenly start sobbing or do it whatever it is.
505
00:28:22.000 --> 00:28:24.880
I don't know any God knows what will happen. The
506
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.759
context I'm talking about is a context in which it
507
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:32.400
is your personal practice between you and God or you
508
00:28:32.519 --> 00:28:38.039
are there in a small, securely held space that is
509
00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.119
there for the sake of a devotional practice as well
510
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:44.440
as with a healing intention. Right, So I when I'm
511
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:47.519
guiding a practice like that, for example, I lead a
512
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.799
session called Calm Prey Dance where I can hold that
513
00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:54.160
space for it. So it very much depends. But I
514
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:56.720
think what you are talking about there in terms of
515
00:28:56.759 --> 00:29:01.000
the spiritual aspect, for me, there is this altered or
516
00:29:01.160 --> 00:29:06.000
expanded state of consciousness that can occur when we are
517
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:10.640
in that deep meditative state and it can sometimes feel
518
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.119
more like a shuniata, more like a you know, a clarity,
519
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.759
and sometimes and in nothingness, and sometimes it feels more
520
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:21.680
like a trance state, really an altered state of consciousness.
521
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.880
And again that depends on the depth of your own practice,
522
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:26.880
that depends on the grace of God, that depends on
523
00:29:26.920 --> 00:29:29.559
the context in which you're in. And so I would
524
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:32.720
say that there's never going to be two experiences that
525
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:34.480
might be the same. And as you know from all
526
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.400
meditative practice, you should never try and chase any kind
527
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:39.000
of experience anyway.
528
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:43.000
Because it's the surest way you know to Actually, that's
529
00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:45.519
just the work of the ego, then, isn't it, when
530
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.279
we're just either chasing some kind of blissful state or
531
00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:50.559
trying to avoid any particular state.
532
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:53.440
So also some things that have come up from me
533
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:56.319
and listening to you, especially in terms of the potential
534
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:01.279
for healing trauma and then rediscovering our fundament spiritual foundation
535
00:30:01.640 --> 00:30:04.359
for our being and our life, and the role of
536
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:08.599
sound and movement and so forth. So Stephen Porge's work
537
00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.519
around poly bagel theory. I've had many conversations with him
538
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.119
about this, and he talks about the way we co
539
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.440
regulate and based on what you mentioned neuroception, that our
540
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:20.359
nervous system is constantly scanning the world and what is
541
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:22.880
it scanning for? Scanning for threat? Am I safeer? Am
542
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.680
I not safe? And this is happening through all the
543
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:27.920
five sents and maybe even directly from the nervous system
544
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:31.440
through into the energetic field. And so the way that
545
00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:35.079
safety gets communicated what in Polybagel theory they call our
546
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:39.519
social engagement system online has to do with posture, It
547
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:41.640
has to do with movement, has to do with voice,
548
00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.839
like a well regulated melodic voice really invites that. So
549
00:30:45.880 --> 00:30:48.440
there's a lot of connection there. And then also bessel
550
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:52.359
Vennacolk's work around trauma, his well known book Body Keeps
551
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.640
the Score. He's talked many times about how, you know,
552
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:59.240
all of our religious traditions and spiritual traditions for thousands
553
00:30:59.319 --> 00:31:03.240
of years somehow intuited this healing work of healing trauma.
554
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:05.720
So what do people do in fellowship and service and
555
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.119
prayer all the world's religions. There's singing and there's chanting,
556
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:13.279
and there's sighing, and there's moving together and rocking, and
557
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.039
you know, there's all these things which we now know
558
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:20.119
scientifically heal trauma. Right, And so it's very interesting that
559
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:23.640
human beings have sort of had these technologies for many years,
560
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:27.279
and in the West many ways. We're rediscovering and perhaps
561
00:31:27.440 --> 00:31:30.480
sort of codifying in a secular way what spiritual and
562
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.480
religious folks have been doing forever to heal and to
563
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.680
develop that integrated attachment that is the basis for thriving.
564
00:31:37.759 --> 00:31:43.559
Really absolutely, and in addition to everything that you said,
565
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:45.880
which I totally agree with, the fact that it is
566
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:51.519
a collective effort and a collective and communal experience as
567
00:31:51.519 --> 00:31:55.960
opposed to this small Western individualistic Your gealing is your
568
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:58.960
responsibility and it's on you. So off you go for
569
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:02.880
endless therapy by yourself, sit in your room, cry by yourself, right,
570
00:32:03.240 --> 00:32:05.680
like that idea that it is on you and on
571
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:08.799
you alone, as if you experience your trauma in a vacuum.
572
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:09.240
Right.
573
00:32:09.880 --> 00:32:13.680
Whereas the healing and can accelerate when we are in
574
00:32:13.720 --> 00:32:16.880
that community, when we are part of the collective, when
575
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:21.839
we are absolutely getting to experience oneness, right, or hopefully
576
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.759
get an experience of safety, of oneness and of wholeness,
577
00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:27.359
which is what is healing, that coregulation that you are
578
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:30.880
talking about, that sense of finding the divine in each other,
579
00:32:31.000 --> 00:32:36.200
seeing the divine in each other, and together creating that yeah,
580
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.400
votics of energy and vortex of healing energy together.
581
00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:44.000
And I assume in the Sunfi tradition there are practices
582
00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:46.160
that people do on their own and their own home
583
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:48.839
and so forth, of prayer and chatting and so forth,
584
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.160
but there is a tremendous emphasis on the collective and community.
585
00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:54.279
I wonder if you could just say something about that
586
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:57.759
amount of Buddhist tradition. It's called songa and very important
587
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:00.200
talk about the three jewels and the Buddhist paths, the
588
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:02.680
Buddha dharma songa. So you have the Buddha as the
589
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.359
example of a wakened mind, you have the darma that
590
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:08.200
teaching is the map on how to reawaken, but the
591
00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.559
importance of the collective body, and that ultimately our awakening
592
00:33:13.000 --> 00:33:15.960
is collective. In fact, it's even seen in the Buddhist
593
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:19.079
tradition that the idea of personal liberation is still somewhat
594
00:33:19.079 --> 00:33:22.279
of a limited view. Real liberation is beyond the personal.
595
00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.319
It's a collective experience. And some of the early some
596
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.599
researchers and the very early chan writing in China said,
597
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:31.480
really the only place you can whatever you want to
598
00:33:31.519 --> 00:33:34.480
think of is enlightenment or liberation or not. The only
599
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.160
place you can really identify it is where it's showing
600
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:39.319
up in the collective field, how it shows up in
601
00:33:39.319 --> 00:33:42.079
the relational field. Right, So I want to say a
602
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.079
little more about the community aspect of the Sufi path.
603
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:47.799
Yes, I mean I think that is implicit, I think
604
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:51.279
or explicit even in every religious tradition, to be honest,
605
00:33:51.359 --> 00:33:55.000
isn't it. You know? I was recently in Mecca doing Amra,
606
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.240
which is the sort of like the highs, right, And
607
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:01.039
you're there, you're circling the Great House of God, all
608
00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:04.240
of you together, even if you had actually gone individually,
609
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:07.880
but you are all there doing the same practice together,
610
00:34:08.360 --> 00:34:10.199
same whether you're going to the mask or to the
611
00:34:10.239 --> 00:34:13.199
Dead Girl or there to carry out your prayers together,
612
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:15.639
or there to do the zicker together. So there's a
613
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.320
huge amount that relies on the communal aspect and the
614
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:23.800
together aspect. And of course, but you are in your heart,
615
00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:26.320
you are remembering in your heart you have got your
616
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:28.840
own connection to God, right, Because I think this is
617
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:32.400
also where we have to be careful to not become
618
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:36.559
about impressing others, right, where the ego can really come
619
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.199
in and say, right, how am I looking, how am
620
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:42.880
I sounding? How am I being perceived? Which can easily
621
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:46.480
happen in this instance. But yes, absolutely, the collective and
622
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:50.440
the communal practice. It's said that you get more a
623
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.599
higher reward if you're able to go and pray together
624
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:56.760
than if you are able to pray alone. So yes, absolutely.
625
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:01.599
Thank you so much for being part of our art
626
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:07.480
of meditation journey and for the wonderful work of healing
627
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.480
that you continue to bring into the world in so
628
00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:13.159
many ways. Thank you for being you, and thank you
629
00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:15.960
for your journey. Thank you for joining us today and
630
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:18.639
inviting us into this divine remembrance.
631
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.119
Thank you so much. Blessings to you, Blessings to all.
632
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.320
Thank you very well. Thank you for joining me on
633
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:29.480
the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember, real change happens when we
634
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:32.519
commit to our growth, face our challenges with compassion, and
635
00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.920
stay open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful,
636
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:38.639
I encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the
637
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:42.639
message of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present,
638
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:44.599
and stay true to you. Take care