128: Ken Davenport Produces Broadway Hits. Here's the Startup Playbook Behind Them

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The number one thing people tell me when I am giving them business advice is they say, Oh, you don't understand, my business is different.
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And I'm here to tell you every business is the same and operates from the same principles.
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That's what I try to do for Broadway.
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Welcome back.
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This is From Strive to Grown Up.
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My name is Alyssa Cohn, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Ken Davenport to the podcast.
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Ken is a Tony Award and Olivier Award-winning theater producer, and he's produced numerous hits, including Kinky Boots, Godspell, O'Mary, and my very favorite, the Neil Diamond musical A Beautiful Noise.
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If loving Neil Diamond is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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Ken is also an entrepreneur, an author, and an advisor to other founders.
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And in this conversation, Ken talks about why producing a Broadway show is a lot like founding a startup.
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You have to develop your product, raise the money, build the team, and get customers in the door.
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We talked about how Ken sees the potential of an idea before other people do, how he changes his pitch when investors don't buy in, and how crowdfunding Godspell helped him build an army of marketers.
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We also talked about balancing creative instincts with audience feedback, how he's using AI and his own growth as a leader, including learning to surround himself with people smarter than he is, and managing the self-doubt that still shows up every single day.
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There are a lot of practical lessons here for founders and leaders, along with a fascinating peek behind the scenes of Broadway.
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So please enjoy my amazing conversation with the great Ken Davenport.
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Ken, welcome to the show.
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I'm so excited to have you.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm thrilled that you're here.
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You are a Tony Award-winning and Olivier Award-winning theater producer.
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You're the author of, I think, five books.
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You're an entrepreneur, you're a builder, but before all of that, you're a high school kid who saw Le Miz.
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Tell us about that moment that you saw Le Miz and what clicked for you.
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Well, my origin theater story actually started when I was five, and my parents dragged me to an audition for the local community theater production of The Steadfast Tin Soldier in Southbridge, Massachusetts.
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Go Gateway Players.
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Big shout out for that.
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And my parents were divorced when I was five.
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And I always say that the theater was the one place where they could get along.
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So they brought me there.
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And that really changed my life, that moment.
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I remember feeling like I found my people, even at that age.
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So I did theater from the age of five to twelve, and then I got too cool for it.
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I thought I was gonna play for the Boston Red Sox and the Boston Celtics simultaneously.
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So I sort of gave it up, but I got too cool for it.
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And then the moment you're talking about is when I was 15 or 16 years old, and I saw Le Miz in Boston, Nea Fenway Pak.
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And I remember just being so moved by the experience.
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Because before that, I only knew musicals to be Annie or Cats or No No Nanette or anything go.
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And these are all great shows.
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I love them all, but none of them really got me.
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And Le Miz, like, you know, that show punches you in the stomach, makes you cry, makes you laugh, does everything in three hours.
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And I remember being riveted.
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And I just remember exactly where I was, just sort of leaning forward, thinking, I want to move people in the same way that this show is moving me.
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I went home, I, you know, bought the CD, and I just drowned myself in musicals from then on out.
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And then I quit the basketball team in like a scene right out of high school musical.
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Like I walked off the court.
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It was like, I quit.
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My coach was making fun of me, and you know, I'm gonna do the musical, I said.
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And that's when I found my tribe again.
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And had been accepted to Johns Hopkins University, but transferred very quickly to the Tisch School of the Arts to pursue my life as an actor, and then that quickly changed over to a producer.
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For you, was it like, okay, I mean, because let's be honest, it's hard to make as a producer, but it's really hard to make as an actor.
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Was it like, listen, I'm not gonna make as an actor, or were you kind of drawn to producing?
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And then tell us what producing is, people who don't know.
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Yes, it was a little bit of both, to be honest.
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So I have always had a business mind, a creative mind, a builder mind, right?
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Like I started the candy store in my father's cardiologist's office.
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So he was like diagnosing them with heart problems, and I was selling them chocolate bars like right after they came out.
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So I'd always been like that kid, sort of building things and writing things.
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And then I started performing and I was doing fine, right?
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Like and I went to NYU, I was like, oh, I'm gonna be fine, except I don't want to be just fine.
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And this is something that I think is very important for people.
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Like the objectivity that you must have when you are getting into any industry, I think is so essential to be able to say it's two things.
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Like, my natural talents may not be enough to achieve the level I want to achieve.
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So I'm gonna have to work a hundred times as hard.
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Like, it doesn't mean you can't do it, but it means you have to work a hundred times as hard and love it that much.
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And I didn't.
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I just remember like one day I didn't want to go to an audition, and I was like, that's a sign.
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You don't love it as much as you're gonna have to work.
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That ratio.
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So start to gravitate towards something that you love more, that you want to work hard at, and that your natural instincts and talent is taking you towards.
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On my podcast that I did, I interviewed Jason Alexander from Seinfeld.
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And what Jason revealed on that podcast is you know, when he was growing up, he was supposed to be a jazz pianist and was very good.
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And then he tells a story that's one day he looked down at his hands and he noticed he had tiny hands, and he realized I'm not gonna be as good as I want to be because I got tiny hands.
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So he said he switched to improv instead.
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Wow.
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That's it.
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Yeah.
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Objectivity, and he was very young.
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So I think that's very important for anyone pursuing anything.
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Again, you can do anything you want, you just may have to work harder.
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Yeah.
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So that was it.
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And then the other thing that I wanted to be in a business or a role in my industry that I could control.
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And actors are just not in control.
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Yeah.
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Doesn't matter how good you are, you could not get the job because of a hundred reasons.
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Or you could get a job but not the lead job, or you could get a job, but it might be in a show that is terrible and closes two weeks later.
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So you've made your Broadway debut, but then it's gone.
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Yeah.
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I wanted to be able to hire myself.
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And I think that's true for a lot of founders.
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Yeah, that makes complete sense.
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So give us a little understanding of what producing is.
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So being a producer is I'm a founder of a startup.
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My product that I'm selling is just tickets to a play or a musical.
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But it's the same thing.
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I have to find the product, player or musical.
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I've got to raise the capital.
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I gotta find a place to sell that product.
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It's just a theater.
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I have to develop the marketing plan.
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I'm the CEO.
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I'm the founder.
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It is exactly the same thing.
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And a lot of people think it's some like wizard of oz type thing.
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No, I try to treat it very much like a business, is why I love doing podcasts like this and listening to podcasts like this.
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I'm a part of like three entrepreneurial masterminds because I love to learn what works in other businesses so I can take it back to mine.
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Yeah.
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It was, you know, an old like information marketing guru who drilled this into me like 15 years ago, where I read a product is a product, it's a product.
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And the number one thing people tell me when I am giving them business advice is they say, Oh, you don't understand, my business is different.
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And I'm here to tell you every business is the same and operates from the same principle.
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That's what I try to do for Broadway.
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Yeah, that's very powerful.
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How do you decide?
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And I want to get into sort of like how a Broadway show or like a little show somehow incubates, but first you have to find a concept.
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Because to your point about startups, it's like there has to be the idea, you have to get the idea to product market fit, all that kind of stuff.
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And even if you think about a VC investor, you have to start with like this sort of notion of the market and like is this going to be something people are gonna like?
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How do you find and source concepts or early stage, you know, sort of products?
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So it's a great question because look, we are also an art form.
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And often what are our biggest hits are the shows that would never have passed any test like you just described.
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Hamilton on paper looks like the craziest show to ever put money in.
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It's the biggest hit, right?
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Oh Mary.
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I'm a producer on O'Mary right now.
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There are things said by that lead character in O'Mary that you go, I never imagined anyone saying those things on a Broadway stage.
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Or Book of Mormon or Avenue Q.
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Or like the list goes on and on.
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Rent.
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These are surprises.
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So there was no market that it would fit.
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In fact, many of those you would say the market would reject them on paper.
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But I tend to think of that famous Henry Ford quote of if if I asked my audiences what they wanted, it would have been faster horses.
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You know, the best shows are the ones that come up with something that the audience is dying for, but they don't know how to explain it.
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Right.
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So how do you discern that?
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So for me, it's a lot of what I like, right?
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Like I have to work on these shows for years and years and years.
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I'm not gonna work on something that I don't love, right?
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Or to put it in a founder or builder description, a product that I wouldn't want to use every day.
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Right?
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I develop musicals and produce musicals that I would want to see every day, or over and over and over.
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That's the thing.
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And often, you know, I develop some original musicals, but talk about the fit to market.
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You know, over 65% of the shows that we do here are adaptations of some sort.
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So there is source material for them: books, movies, song catalogs, etc.
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And that's because of the economic challenges and the risk involved.
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Costs are so high, we need to start selling a few tickets right away just to be able to cover those early weeks of losses.
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Every business out there, every new business, every startup usually loses money for a long time.
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How many years was Amazon not profitable before it turned to profit, right?
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So we're okay with that for a little while.
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But because costs are so high, we can't last too long.
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So we often produce adaptations in the hope that there's some IP value that's gonna get people to come versus something else.
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And there's a very famous book called The Breakthrough Advertising.
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And I stumbled upon it after producing a musical that audiences loved.
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It was called Getting the Band Back Together.
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Audiences love this show.
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Exit surveys, 97% love, exceed expectations, all the things.
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We closed in about a month.
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No stars, no brand recognition, no sourcement, nothing.
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Meanwhile, Pretty Woman was down the block.
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Didn't get very good reviews, word of mouth was okay, but it was doing like$1.3 million a week.
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I close my show, I'm very depressed, I stumble upon this book, I open the book, and the book says in any cluttered market, audiences will always choose the devil they know versus the devil they don't.
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And Broadway has that as a little harder degree of difficulty there because one, we're a very expensive proposition.
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So there's high risk in making a choice with something that they don't know anything about.
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And two, we can't show them the product before they come in.
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Yeah.
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So they can't sample it, right?
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If Coca-Cola is doing a new soft drink, they'll put people in Times Square and they'll hand it out.
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You'll sample it, you like it, or you don't.
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We can't really do that.
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You're going in blind and you're spending$150 to do it.
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Yeah.
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So we tend to use source material as a way to attract an early audience.
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It's never a guarantee the show's gonna work, but hopefully it reduces the risk for the early customer and allows them to get in the door.
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Yep, that makes sense.
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You know, there's a lot that we're talking about these days, because what you just said, I mean, you said a lot of things, but one thing is around source material, and also basically I have to like it because I gotta work with it for years and years and years.
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So I have to kind of come in every day and really enjoy it.
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And then that's also the notion of, you know, taste and the notion of like what other people are going to like.
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And there's a lot of talk, we'll talk about AI in a little bit, but like there's a lot of talk about now in the age of AI, the importance to develop taste.
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How do you personally think about taste as it relates to shows, to theater?
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It's another really good question because again, I'm going based on my own taste.
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I do shows that I would love to see.
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I often say that like I'm the worst business person on the planet because I couldn't work on a business that I didn't like it.
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Like I was playing golf and I was at a very, very fancy golf club, and I was the guest of somebody, and these obviously very successful members sitting down and goes around the table.
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What do you do?
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What do you do?
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What do you do?
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I said, What do you do?
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I work for a wire hanger company.
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I'm an executive.
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I was like, okay, I I don't I didn't know what to say, and as you can already tell, it's very rarely speechless.
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But I was remember thinking, like, how do you get up for work every day?
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I don't know.
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And obviously he gets up for work every day because it pays unbelievably well.
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And there are very few wire hanger companies because no one wants to do that.
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But that's not something that I could ever do.
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I have to love it.
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Now, again, I'm making a sweeping rude generalization because this person may have just actually been fascinated with coming up with new wire hanger technology.
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I have no idea, so I apologize for that.
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But the idea is this if I can't work on anything that I don't love, and it goes by my own taste.
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But Ken, have you developed your taste over time consciously?
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Or, you know, like how do you think about taste, or what advice do you have for other people who develop their taste?
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So here's the thing is like we all have predispositions and biases towards all sorts of things.
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And including entertainment, there's a thing that we're going to like.
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Now I tend to, which I think makes me a stronger Broadway producer.
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Now, very specifically, I said Broadway producer, not theater producer.
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Because I produce for a 10-block radius.
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65% of my audience is tourists, 18% international, 44 years old and female,$250,000 a year.
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That's a specific market.
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Theater producer may be something totally different.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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I'm not running the public theater.
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I could never do that.
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That's not me.
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I produce for a bigger, wider, more mass audience.
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That's the only way I put food on my table.
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Yeah.
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I have that kind of taste.
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I loved Le Miz, right?
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I loved Phantom of the Opera.
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I got to work for Andrew Ludweber for five years as his executive producer.
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It was heaven for me.
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Right.
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And I'm not the, I mean, I'll say it publicly.
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You want controversial or provocative, I'm not the biggest Stephen Sondheim fan.
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Oh.
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He's a genius.
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He's the Shakespeare of musical theater.
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I can study him like I study Shakespeare, but I don't want to sit through the Tempest again either.
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Right.
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Like, you know, so that's a little bit more of my taste.
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So that said, it's very important for me to challenge that.
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So I do.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:01.039
The last production of Merrily We Roll Along, Daniel Radcliffe, Jonathan Groff, and Lindsay Mendez, outstanding.
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:01.519
Mm-hmm.
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:03.759
That was a Stephen Santheim production every year.
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:05.519
Yes, I have to challenge myself.
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.320
Or I produced a couple shows that I wouldn't normally produce.
00:14:08.559 --> 00:14:11.120
Alan Cummings, One Man Macbeth, I produced.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.559
That's not normally my thing.
00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:25.279
So I'm finding, especially as I actually get older, that I don't get too settled in my own taste because the world is changing around me, and I have to keep pace with current taste if I'm going to have a long career.
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:25.679
Yeah.
00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:27.759
And to push yourself to have that learning agility.
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.879
I think that's really so powerful.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:30.080
Yeah, hire young people.
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:35.279
Like that's what, you know, that's what I do outside my door right now to make sure that I'm hearing what their tastes are.
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:36.159
That's powerful.
00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:37.279
I love how you just said that.
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:43.279
You know, I want to talk a little bit more about actually the making of Broadway shows, specifically the time horizon.
00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:48.879
And I think what famously happens with shows is they start off, if I may say so, not too good.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:55.039
Like actually, Hades Town was kind of well known to be not so good when it started, and then it kept growing and it was like not so good.
00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.639
And they finally built it into something that ultimately won the Tony Award.
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:02.480
I know because I was an investor in Tootsie that year, and so we lost the Tony Award.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.200
Boo on us.
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:05.279
But honestly, I loved Hades Town too.
00:15:05.360 --> 00:15:15.519
So talk a little bit about how the sort of germ of a production or like a new idea is actually quite fragile, actually quite bad, and that then you can kind of shape it into something which is fantastic.
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.480
Look, Ernest Hemingway said that first drafts of anything are always shit.
00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:21.440
Like that's it.
00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:27.039
And the first draft of a musical, which is the first reading or the first time it's up, is gonna be messy.
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:27.919
They all are.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:37.039
Where producers, investors, direct like all of us have to where we earn our stripes is that we have to use our imagination to see what it can become.
00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:39.200
You know, I've been on both sides of that.
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:42.480
I saw one of the very first readings of Dear Evan Hansen.
00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:44.480
Mm-hmm and I passed on it.
00:15:44.720 --> 00:15:44.960
Ooh.
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.799
Because I remember thinking, yeah, this music is good, but this guy's a terrible person.
00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:49.440
I don't get that.
00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:50.159
He's a lying.
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:51.759
It was a different show, though.
00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:52.480
Very different.
00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:54.080
Had more of an ensemble.
00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.000
He felt like a real liar and that.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:56.799
They softened it.
00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.279
They learned.
00:15:57.600 --> 00:16:02.159
That creative team did amazing work on that show to turn it into what it is.
00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:03.039
I couldn't see it.
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.080
I just missed it, right?
00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:11.840
That said, I produced the revival of Once on This Island, directed by Michael Arden, genius director, nominated again for a Tony Award this year.
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:13.840
We won the best revival of a musical.
00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.039
And when Michael and I talked about the show, I could see exactly what his vision was.
00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:18.960
And I was like, this is gonna be great, no problem.
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:20.159
We did a workshop of it.
00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:23.679
I thought I was gonna have all the money pouring out of this workshop, people writing checks.
00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:24.240
They didn't.
00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:25.279
They couldn't see it.
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:26.559
And I remember getting mad.
00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:31.360
I mean, I know all the founders out there can like, what the F do you mean you don't understand this?
00:16:31.679 --> 00:16:32.960
Of course this is gonna work.
00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.120
And people, most people don't have imagination, me included at times.
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:41.519
So that's what you have to really hone that ability to see what things can become.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:42.000
Yeah.
00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:46.639
And then how do you handle it when you kind of go in and you're like so sure, like, oh, this is gonna be a lock?
00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.360
And then actually people are sitting on their hands, not writing checks.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:54.080
But meanwhile, you're still committed to it and you still want to build this particular production.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:55.360
How do you think about that?
00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:58.720
How do you kind of come back from that rejection and how do you then stick with it?
00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:02.000
Well, look, that's what being a founder is all about.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.599
Like, I believe in this and I'm gonna make it happen no matter what, right?
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:07.599
And I believed in it a hundred percent.
00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:11.359
Also, I'm, you know, frustratingly to some, stubborn.
00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:15.119
And you tell me no, oh, I'm gonna figure it out if I believe in it.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.880
And when that didn't happen, but I was committed, we were gonna open in three months.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:19.759
I was already in.
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:21.279
I wasn't gonna let that not happen.
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:26.640
And I'm having PTSD because I remember I was right here at this desk, like the next morning.
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:27.759
What am I gonna do?
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:30.160
Thought about it, brainstorm, strategize.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:34.240
I unlocked something, made a phone call, pitched a new strategy.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:38.000
The person said yes, and I remember thinking, I'm gonna be okay.
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.440
I just need to drive and work and double down.
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:49.519
And I was up every morning at like 4 30 in the morning, getting to my desk at five o'clock, calling, calling, calling, and pitching like crazy.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:51.440
What was the insight that you had at your desk?
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.559
I changed the strategy and the deal that I was offering to people.
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:55.519
I changed the terms.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:56.400
Yeah, like what?
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.720
I just made it more attractive for people to get involved.
00:17:58.799 --> 00:17:59.599
Here's what I saw.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:02.000
I looked at the list of shows coming in that year.
00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:04.799
And there were very few revivals of musicals coming in.
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.440
Carousel, My Fair Lady, Us.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:08.799
There may have been one other.
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.880
But I remember thinking we were like a lock for a Tony nomination.
00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:13.839
Like a lock.
00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:22.480
And I put us then at the favorite to win because I knew ours was gonna be a real revisionist thinking of the musical.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.880
My Fair Lady at Lincoln Center was gonna be stunning.
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:28.160
They put up those beautiful, stunning revivals, but it was gonna be My Fair Lady.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:35.200
Carousel was gonna be very good, but we had the seminal production of Carousel in the 90s at Lincoln Center.
00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:37.119
I was like, they can't beat that.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:48.319
So I made it possible for people to be a producer on the show for less than they normally would, saying to them, if you do this, 99% you're getting a Tony Award.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:51.359
And the odds just based on the three, one out of three, we're winning.
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:52.799
And I'm gonna put it more than that.
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.599
I'm gonna put it somewhere between one out of three and one out of two.
00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:56.240
Yeah.
00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.839
And that made people lean in, ooh, when do I get these kind of numbers?
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:02.559
Yeah, and just to clarify for that's really powerful, Kim.
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:10.480
Clarify for everybody, you can be an investor in Broadway shows, or you can be somebody who sort of bundles a bunch of investors and then you get a sort of a producer credit.
00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:15.440
And so if you get a producer credit and then your show wins, you know, any awards, you get to win that award.
00:19:15.519 --> 00:19:17.839
So that is kind of what you positioned it in a different way.
00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:24.559
And I literally remember my desk is over here, and the Tony Award for that show is sitting right behind me.
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:31.839
It wasn't, and I wrote on a piece of paper this space reserved until June 10th, 2018.
00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:36.720
And I put that post-it note on my bookshelf and I pitched and pitched and pitched.
00:19:36.799 --> 00:19:40.640
And sure enough, I raised all the money, show opened, glorious reviews.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:49.440
We won the Tony Award for Best Revival of a Musical, and I put Tony Awards in the hands of like, I think, 10 or 12 people that had produced a musical before.
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:50.000
Boom.
00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:50.640
Love that.
00:19:50.720 --> 00:19:51.920
That's amazing, Ken.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:53.039
That's a beautiful story.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:58.960
You know, one thing we've been talking about so far is like the craft and like understanding how you turn into something great.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:02.160
And then you've talked a lot about the business because obviously you love the business.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:05.359
And one thing, you're known for a lot of sort of pioneering techniques.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:11.200
And one thing that you've really kind of made a name for yourself is your ability to do market research and market testing.
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:17.359
Talk about that and talk about why that's like so like, oh, people don't like that, but that you think it's really important.
00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:27.599
Well, look, Broadway for a while was one of the few industries where people would spend 10 to 20 million dollars developing a product and never ask people their opinion before finishing that product.
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:32.720
And then like open it on Broadway and first audience, 2,000 people, and they're like, I don't get it.
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:33.759
And they're surprised.
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.160
What?
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:35.279
How can you not get it?
00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:36.319
You gotta talk to people.
00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:48.480
Yes, you need your gut, you need your instincts, you need all those people around you, but you also need an audience, especially in a high-risk industry like this, where we have to get a thousand people to 2,000 people to show up eight times a week for years.
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.359
This is not producing for opening weekend like film.
00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:52.880
It doesn't work that way.
00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:58.480
So we need palpable word of mouth, and that only comes if people have an extraordinary experience.
00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:11.599
So I just started testing like everything I do three times based on an idea, when we develop the advertising materials, and then once the show is running, we test and we've talked to the people who aren't coming but should be coming to find out why they're not.
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:18.480
So I do this, I've done all kinds, including I was the first person to ever use dial testing on a Broadway show.
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.119
Same technology they used for movies or tell us about that.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.839
Tell us about dial testing and about how that landed you in the New York Times.
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:26.319
That was in 2013, a long time ago now.
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:28.559
We did a musical called Somewhere in Time in Portland.
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:33.440
And this is the technology where at the time, you know, people would hold a dial, and when they liked something, they would turn it to the right.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:34.799
When they didn't, they would turn it to the left.
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:36.559
This is pre-AI boys and girls.
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:37.119
Yes, yeah, exactly.
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:37.759
Exactly.
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:43.920
You get this graph of when they liked, when they didn't, and more importantly, what I saw were plateaus.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:46.160
And wherever there was a plateau, that was a plate.
00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:47.039
It's going on too long.
00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:49.839
It needs to read, not up all the time, like an EKG.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:50.559
And it wasn't.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:52.240
So we made some adjustments based on that.
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:53.839
And yes, we were the first people to do it.
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.359
So we got on the very, very front page of the New York Times as a result.
00:21:57.839 --> 00:21:58.480
You gotta love that.
00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:02.480
And so what else when you say You test kind of beginning, middle, and end a little bit.
00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:05.119
Like, what specifically do you do in the early stage to test?
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:07.359
And then also, like, how do you talk to your customers?
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:08.720
I mean, that's such a I don't know.
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:13.759
I can't figure out how you would actually go to individual customers to find out, hey, you should be at the show, what's going on?
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:19.200
So there are companies, of course, that do this, and they just hadn't worked a lot on Broadway when I started using them.
00:22:19.359 --> 00:22:22.880
But I have a like early sort of proof of concept to your point earlier.
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:32.640
Okay, we're gonna ask a bunch of ticket buyers, musical buyers, multiple, like the people that come three, four times a year that fit the average theater going demographic.
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.759
We're gonna do some research, we're gonna talk to a data company and get these people.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.160
And then we're gonna do a quantitative analysis.
00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:49.519
Like, if I said to you, like there was a musical called The Griswold's Broadway Vacation, how inclined would you be to buy a ticket to that show knowing nothing else but that?
00:22:49.680 --> 00:22:51.599
And they pick a thing and then we get a result.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:54.720
And if the result is 99%, great.
00:22:54.880 --> 00:22:58.000
That means there is a natural propensity to want to buy.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:22:59.440
We saw this with Neil Diamond.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:01.759
I produced the Neil Diamond musical, The Beautiful Noise.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:03.440
I loved that show so much.
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:04.400
Okay, keep going.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:04.720
Yeah.
00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:15.119
The number was like 85% of audiences, 50 or over, didn't need to know anything else except there was a Neil Diamond musical to want to buy a ticket to a Neil Diamond music.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:16.480
Guilty is charged.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:17.680
Guilty is charged.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:18.720
Makes perfect sense.
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:19.200
Yeah.
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:20.240
So that's great.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.599
But then we looked at 40 or 30 or 20, like all the different ages, right?
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:24.640
So then it changes.
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:28.720
So okay, we don't need to do much to the audience that's over 50.
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:30.400
30, we need to do something.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:32.960
Or wait, or you know, like all sorts of that analysis.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:37.839
Then we start to test some titles and taglines and all sorts of things about the show.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.839
What are their favorite Neil Diamond songs?
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:42.000
So we can include that in the copy, right?
00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:51.759
So we include America, Sweet Caroline, and Cracklin' Rosie because those were the three songs that they checked as being the ones they remembered most.
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:59.279
So when you put that in marketing, then it's more likely to, oh my gosh, right, that song, that song, that song, which gets them a little further along to buying a ticket.
00:23:59.440 --> 00:23:59.839
Love that.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:00.640
That is so great.
00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:05.839
Let's talk about crowdfunding because you also pioneered crowdfunding for Godspell.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:06.559
Tell us about that.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:07.759
Like, what gave you that idea?
00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:09.039
Why was that important?
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:10.000
And how did it go?
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:14.960
So, this was a long time ago as well, and it was just when social networking was beginning to boom.
00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.720
And I remember thinking, wow, there's all these people on this site.
00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:33.599
And we had a niche social network called Broadway Space, named for MySpace, which, by the way, tip out there never name a product with the name of another product because you think you're like backpacking on that product because that one could just blow up, and then you're like, what is Broadway space?
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.960
Anyway, niche social networks were all the rage at the time.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:39.839
So I formed one and we had like 20,000 members like overnight.
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:45.759
And I remember thinking, wow, I could raise a lot of money if every single one of these people threw in a hundred bucks, a thousand bucks, whatever it is.
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:51.119
And at the same time, Barack Obama was elected president using a very similar tactic.
00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:53.359
So I said, I want to do this for a Broadway show.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:57.039
It was a very like this is pre-Kickstarter, pre- all that stuff.
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:58.640
And I wanted to do it for profit.
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:03.759
It was a very, very arduous process that the SEC did not make easy, but we actually did it.
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:08.000
And again, for those of you financiers out there, this is pre-Jobs Act, right?
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:08.880
Pre-Obama.
00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:09.519
So we did it.
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.319
We raised$5 million from 737 people.
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:16.079
And what I loved about this was that I didn't do it to raise the money.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.160
I did it to raise a marketing army.
00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:28.160
When you have investors in a show, they will get behind it and at the time tweet about it and email their friends and buy tickets themselves and support it and wear the t-shirt and all that.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.160
And we built an incredible community.
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:38.160
The other thing I should say about where I came up with that idea and all of my big marketing ideas, because I've done a lot of things that have gotten a lot of attention.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:42.960
Before I pulled the trigger on it, I talked to Steven Schwartz, who's the creator of Godspell.
00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.559
And I asked him, what's it about?
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:45.680
What's the show about?
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.839
And he said, Godspell is about a community of people coming together.
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:55.359
And that's when I said, Oh, what if I brought together the largest community of investors?
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:59.200
So the marketing message and the artistic message were combined.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:05.680
Because I always say that, look, I can get attention for my show if I put someone in a penguin costume and have them do cartwheels down the street.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:08.319
But if my show isn't about penguins, it makes no sense, right?
00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:08.720
Yeah.
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:15.359
The return on your marketing investment is like 10x when the marketing message matches the artistic one.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:17.119
Yeah, I think that's very well said.
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:23.200
And I would just add, like so many Kickstarter campaigns have discovered, it's not just about the money.
00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:25.680
As you just said, it's about building the army of marketers.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:30.480
And, you know, as an investor in Broadway shows myself, the reason you invest in part is to have ownership.
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:31.920
You're like, I like this thing.
00:26:32.000 --> 00:26:33.599
I want to be an owner of this thing.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:36.480
And then once you're an owner of the thing, you start acting like an owner.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.279
So you start talking to people about it and you want it to do well because you have this affiliation and ownership with it.
00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.839
So I think it's a very interesting sort of psychological process to bring people along in that way.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:46.720
That's exactly right.
00:26:46.799 --> 00:26:52.480
The number one reason people invest in Broadway shows is to be a part of the process of a Broadway show.
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:52.799
Right.
00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:54.000
So we try to deliver that.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:54.400
Right.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:55.359
Have you done that?
00:26:55.440 --> 00:27:01.839
So since Godspell, have you done other like crowdfunding things or what other innovative marketing things have you done, especially in the recent years?
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.039
I have not done that, but one may be coming.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:07.359
So if your eyes watch this space.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:09.359
Watch this space or watch my Instagram.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:09.680
Yeah.
00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:16.880
So I was the first person to live stream a Broadway or off-Broadway musical in 2015, pre-Zoom, put all of this.
00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:17.359
Yeah.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:27.039
I tend to try to adapt technology a little bit earlier than others because I grew up on computers and with a TRS 80 computer in like 1981 or something.
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:31.279
So a lot of the technological or marketing initiatives that I've done have been around that.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.039
But we've done a lot of stunts.
00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.400
We've had towns, whole towns, produce a Broadway show.
00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:43.920
My most famous marketing initiative was for my show My First Time, which is about exactly what you think it's about.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:50.880
It was my answer to the vagina monologues, and it was true stories about people's first sexual experiences, all derived from a website.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:56.559
There was a website where people anonymously submitted their stories and they were sad and funny and tragic and all these things.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:58.240
So we put them into a play.
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:03.119
And I wrote this play and we put it up, and I as I was writing it, some startling statistics came up.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:04.880
Some were good and some were not so good.
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.759
And I remember thinking, you know who should see the show first?
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.519
Virgins should see the show first.
00:28:09.680 --> 00:28:11.200
People who have not had sex.
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.759
So to demystify it, and maybe they'll learn and maybe they'll make some better choices, right?
00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:16.400
I love it.
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.200
So I remember thinking that was the mission of the piece.
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:24.480
And when I got closer to the show starting, I said, I know what I'll do.
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:25.359
That's the mission.
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.359
That's the artistic message.
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:32.720
Now the marketing message will be I will let virgins get in free for the first performance.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.839
And then the question is, how are you gonna know?
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:49.599
So I hired a PhD in nonverbal communication, a human lie detector, to stand at the front of the line, analyzing handwriting, asking questions, looking in their eyes, being able to tell and deciding yes or no.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:50.160
Oh my god.
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.160
Well, we did a press release about that.
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:56.000
I got a little blurb in the daily news, and then one little radio mention.
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:03.680
And then on the third day, the Associated Press called me from the Rome desk, of course, leave it to the Italians, and they were like, We love this story.
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.960
They asked me like three questions, and then they said, It's going worldwide.
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.200
I had no idea what that meant, except the world blew up in like the next hour.
00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:18.880
Every major television station, the home page of CNN, and then Jay Leno did a joke about it in his monologue on the Tonight Show.
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:21.599
Oh my god! And then, of course, you had virgins showing up everywhere.
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:22.480
Virgins everywhere.
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.720
Well, I used to say they were like, Are you worried?
00:29:24.799 --> 00:29:26.319
I was like, this is New York City, right?
00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:30.400
Not a lot of people here that fit that qualifications, and if they do, they're not gonna admit it.
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:32.000
So that was a different time.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:33.759
I don't even know if I would do that today.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:37.359
But yeah, again, artistic message and marketing message combined.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:42.160
I brought a goat on the red carpet of the Tony Awards for my production of Once on This Island.
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.039
That's because we featured a goat and everyone was talking about the goat nonstop.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:51.599
So I knew if I could get some attention for the goat, people, maybe that's that show I want to see.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:53.119
That also went crazy viral.
00:29:53.279 --> 00:30:00.400
So, we know that's sort of like old school press marketing strategies as well as the new school crowdfunding and live streaming that I've done.
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:01.599
Yeah, very innovative.
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:03.279
I love it, very creative, actually.
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:10.079
So you talked about technology and you're being an early adopter, and I know that you've been talking about on Instagram and on social, you know, about about AI.
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.960
Give us sort of the AI story, how you see it.
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.200
AI is fantastic, AI is terrible.
00:30:15.359 --> 00:30:17.119
Tell us what we should know about AI and theater.
00:30:17.440 --> 00:30:29.119
Look, AI is an extremely powerful tool for all businesses and all of them and all industries should figure out how to make best use of it to harness it for good instead of evil.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:31.680
Like any other tool, it can go both ways.
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.599
This is the most powerful one we've had.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.720
But look, I've seen a lot of technological advances now, right?
00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:43.200
And for those people who are saying I don't want to use AI, that is the equivalent of saying I don't want to use Google when Google came out.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.319
Like, oh, it's got too much access and too much information to everything.
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:52.319
It's a powerful tool, but we need to know how to use it because it's not going away and it's only going to be bigger, right?
00:30:52.480 --> 00:31:03.279
So the theater is interesting because, like, number one, my axiom about AI is that AI can never be used to replace the art or the artist.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:04.000
That is it.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:10.480
Now, we have an easier time of this than our friends in film and television because AI can't replace a human actor, right?
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:11.440
And it's so funny.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:15.200
Broadway feels like it is such an easy target for technology.
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:19.519
Oh, you guys are gonna be like streaming is just gonna put you out.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:22.799
Like, there's no way anyone will ever want to get off the couch.
00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:33.119
And I literally, someone said that to me, and I was like, you know, they said the same thing about the invention of the radio, and the same thing about the invention of the television and the internet and all of it.
00:31:33.279 --> 00:31:36.480
And what has happened to the theater since the invention of the radio?
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:37.839
It's only gotten bigger.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:44.240
The more technology there is in the world providing entertainment, the more rare the live form becomes.
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:52.480
In fact, the CEO of Netflix just said in today I'd be doubling down on the humanities right now because of how much technology is taking off.
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:55.920
People are gonna miss and crave that human connection, the live entertainment.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:09.039
So I'm very excited about how the theater will thrive in this market and also excited about how I figure out how to use it to make it more efficient, more cost effective, so we can lower our ticket prices, allow more people to see it.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:09.440
Yeah.
00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:10.960
How what ideas do you have already?
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:15.359
How have you been using it so far, either behind the scenes in your business or front of the house?
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:16.720
And what other ideas do you have?
00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.480
Well, we'll talk about research.
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.839
So I'm using it, I'm using it to do research for me.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:35.039
So I'm developing uh a musical based on the movie Slum Dog Millionaire, and I'm having it do a lot of research on India, history, like all just basic that stuff that I would have used Google for.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.079
And before that, I would have used a library or an encyclopedia.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:39.200
It's the same thing.
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:48.559
So for people that are like not using it for research because they're concerned about the technology, it's just a different form of the thing you were using before, and it's more powerful and faster.
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:49.920
It's gonna make your research better.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.799
It should make whatever product you're developing better because it gets you more stuff.
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.559
The other thing I'm using it for is crunching data, of course, right?
00:32:56.720 --> 00:33:00.960
So, like we did a musical off Broadway, another new musical I'm developing called Joy.
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:03.519
Founders should know about this based on the movie Joy.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:05.680
She invented the miracle mob, she was a startup.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.079
So I hired a research company to come in.
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:09.920
But I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.240
There's a lot more research available to me than just the research company.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:15.839
I've got reviews, okay?
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.599
I took every single review and the qualitative research from the focus group, and then get this.
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:35.599
I went on to all the websites where there are customer reviews, and I scraped every single one and I put them into chat and I said, these are critical reviews, these are quantitative research from focus groups, and audience reviews.
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:43.119
Find me the top three things that all groups have in common across and tell me what those takeaways are.
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:47.440
Because that, like you can't just rely on reviews, you can't just rely on the focus group.
00:33:47.519 --> 00:33:51.279
But if there's one thing in common across them all, I better pay attention.
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:53.359
Now, again, this is where your gut goes.
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:57.920
You don't let the research or the AI or any of it tell you what to do.
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:05.359
You just take it as an opinion, and then you decide as the artist what you want to do, and you never ask it, oh, really?
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.119
They think that's the problem?
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:08.239
How would you fix that?
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:08.719
Right?
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:09.199
No.
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.039
Because frankly, it'll be terrible.
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:11.920
It won't be good.
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:12.239
Yeah.
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.400
And that's because it's operating based on the past, not on the future.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:22.159
Like, if we could go back in time and put in, like, I have a musical about a group of dancers.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:27.199
There's no plot involved, but they stand on a line, they're competing for a thing, and each one comes out.
00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:29.199
There had never been a chorus line before that.
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:34.079
Claude would have been like, I don't really see it or get it because it has no comparables, right?
00:34:34.239 --> 00:34:36.559
So, like, that's the artist thinking forward.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.119
That's what we have to do, is take it to new places.
00:34:39.440 --> 00:34:40.320
What did you do with that?
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:41.760
With this, this example, Joy.
00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:47.519
I got this list and it becomes like a to-do list or to talk about list with my creative team.
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:52.159
We sit down, and this isn't what, again, I use it to crunch a lot of data and fast.
00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:54.719
This isn't what AI said was wrong.
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:56.320
This is or right.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:35:03.280
This is what reviews have in common and the threads, so the things that maybe we should pay attention to that.
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:04.000
Got it.
00:35:04.079 --> 00:35:08.480
And so then you guys talk about it together, and that's the creative spark and the creative process together.
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:09.039
I love that.
00:35:09.280 --> 00:35:13.920
Anything else to say if you speculate in the next year, two, three about AI?
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:18.000
What else is AI going to be doing that relates to you and your projects?
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:19.920
Look, we are theater people.
00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:32.880
So I imagine it will be helping us with a lot of the business logistics of it, from budgeting to forecasting to all the stuff that we do 25% of probably what we should be doing from a pure like numbers perspective.
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:35.760
Already I'm having an analyzing budgets, right?
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:39.360
Like if you were a publicly traded company, what's wrong with this?
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:44.159
Or like accounting questions, all these sort of things that are just like raw data questions.
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:51.360
Again, not the art, serving up different forecasting, analyzing grosses over a Broadway season or ours.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:53.440
Hey, like we do this very manually.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:55.920
Here are my grosses over the last 10 weeks.
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:58.079
Here's our advance, here's our average.
00:35:58.480 --> 00:35:59.760
Like, where do you predict we're gonna be?
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:01.679
Like you run the numbers, show it to me.
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:03.519
Here's our customer data, right?
00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:05.760
Like here's the average age, like what can we do?
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:13.199
You know, like that kind of thing, just to crunch the numbers for us to help guide to hopefully help us sell some more tickets, get more butts in the seats.
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.400
Like, I believe the world is a better place if there's more theater in it.
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:17.840
There's only more theater in the world.
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:21.599
If there are people going to see it so that we buy tickets so we can make more of it.
00:36:21.679 --> 00:36:23.360
And hopefully it will help us do some of those things.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.159
Yep, I love that.
00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:28.880
Now, Ken, in addition to being an entrepreneur and a builder and a writer, you're also a leader.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.719
You're a manager of your team over there.
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:34.000
Tell us about the journey that you went on to be a leader.
00:36:34.079 --> 00:36:44.960
Because, you know, on the one hand, an actor obviously collaborates with people, a producer obviously collaborates with people, but then when you have to kind of lead your own team to certain directions, it's kind of a different skill set.
00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:47.280
So, what was that like for you, that journey of becoming a leader?
00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:49.280
You know, it's still a journey.
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:54.320
I mean, because often, especially founders, we don't want to lead teams.
00:36:54.400 --> 00:36:55.679
That's not why we got into it.
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.320
In fact, I'm like probably many of them who listen to you, I'm an introverted extrovert.
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:05.119
You know, shut me in a room and give me a computer and a pad of paper and like I want to think my way out of a solution.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:06.559
I don't want to talk to people about it.
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:07.760
I don't want to delegate even.
00:37:07.840 --> 00:37:08.559
I just want to do it myself.
00:37:08.639 --> 00:37:10.000
I'll be faster in the way I like it.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:11.440
So that's not why we get into it.
00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:18.000
But from when I was a kid, and maybe because I was an only child and was just looking for some friends, like I just put things together.
00:37:18.079 --> 00:37:25.760
So I started the Dungeons and Dragons Club when I was a kid because I wanted to play Dungeons and Dragons and I didn't have any brothers or sisters.
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:30.960
So I stood up and I remember the moment at every single class in my I don't know why they let me.
00:37:31.119 --> 00:37:34.079
I stood up at like at fifth grade and was like, hi everybody, I'm just gonna read this.
00:37:34.239 --> 00:37:36.239
I'm starting a club, raise your hand if you want to be a part of it.
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.519
So I just did that a lot.
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.400
And that's sort of de facto leader, right?
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:41.840
Because, oh, that sounds fun.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.360
Leaders and founders have to be action takers, and I take a lot of action.
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:47.440
The rest of it, you just figure it out as you go.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:52.000
And I was not a great one 10 years ago at times, and I was not a great one yesterday at times.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.400
Like you just gotta figure it out and listen, right?
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:57.119
Just listening to the feedback of the people around you.
00:37:57.280 --> 00:38:03.920
And I, in my employee reviews every year, one of the things I say is like, is there anything I can do better for you?
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:05.920
Like, how can I be a better boss for you?
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:06.239
Yeah.
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:09.119
What input have you gotten to help you be a better boss from them?
00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:11.440
Communication, like every relationship.
00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:13.519
Sometimes a little more grace.
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:15.360
Remember that I can't read your mind.
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:18.800
A lot of stuff that people talk about in marriages, actually, it's like very similar.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.559
It's relationship stuff.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:30.800
Can you talk about maybe a mistake that you made as you were growing into a leader, whether it was 10 years ago or yesterday, that kind of really taught you something meaningful and that you sort of still take away with you?
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:36.239
Yeah, like, you know, there is a certain amount of ego that comes with all founders.
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:37.039
We have to have it.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.119
We have to believe our idea is gonna work.
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:41.039
We have to go raise$20 million for it.
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:47.840
We have to convince so we have to develop this ego of like, I know what I'm doing, I'm smart, I've got it, I get it.
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.039
And this is especially true for young males.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.599
We just have this like, I'm the smartest person in the room type of attitude at times.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:39:00.000
And that is, of course, the opposite of what young males are.
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:02.800
Like, it's just like biologically everything.
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:18.800
And I made that mistake of putting myself in rooms sometimes where I knew I was the smartest person in the room instead of putting myself in rooms where I was absolutely not the smartest person in the room, and how that is a stronger, smarter thing to do.
00:39:18.960 --> 00:39:22.719
And I'm a big golfer, and I picked up golf late in life, actually.
00:39:22.800 --> 00:39:27.840
And it was about 10 years ago when I'm a very early golf lesson of mine, and they were talking about playing.
00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:30.559
And my coach said, Here's what you should do when you play.
00:39:30.639 --> 00:39:32.239
And I was like, I'm so nervous to play.
00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:35.119
Like, and he said, I know it's hard, like all the things.
00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:38.639
I want you only to play with people who are much better than you.
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:39.679
And I was like, What?
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:41.280
Only play with better golfers.
00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:45.599
I know it's easier to play with someone who's never hit a ball before because you feel better about yourself.
00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:46.960
That's not gonna make you better.
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:49.920
Play with something who is 10 times the golfer than you are.
00:39:50.079 --> 00:39:53.360
You're gonna find yourself like a flower growing towards the sun.
00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:54.800
That's so well said.
00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:56.159
That's good life advice, right?
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:59.920
Is that why you've also been part of these entrepreneur groups?
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.000
And what do you get out of those kinds of communities?
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:03.920
Yeah, I mean, that's exactly it.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:05.440
So I did it for a few reasons.
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:13.440
One, to surround myself with people like me, because founders, they're a very lonely group, and your staff, as much as you love them, may not get it.
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:14.400
They don't understand.
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:16.559
Your partners in life may not get it.
00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.400
It's a different type of stress, right?
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.760
I wanted to be with other people that were going through what I was going for.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.679
And I'm a big believer, again, that where we started, all businesses are the same.
00:40:25.840 --> 00:40:38.239
And if I could swipe and deploy what was working for a duck farmer or a porta potty renter or somebody else, and that hadn't been used in the Broadway industry, then I would stand out in the Broadway industry.
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.920
So you gotta get fresh perspective, like support and fresh perspective.
00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:42.400
Yeah.
00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:43.199
The smart people.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:44.800
Ken, just a few more questions.
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:48.079
Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt?
00:40:48.320 --> 00:40:50.480
Oh, yeah, every day, if not multiple times a day.
00:40:50.719 --> 00:40:50.960
Yeah.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:52.719
Tell us about that and how do you handle it?
00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:58.239
Look, everyone goes through it, and you know, that's part of being human, and it's part of being a founder.
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:01.039
If you don't have imposter syndrome, you're probably a sociopath.
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:02.719
Like, you know, we all have to doubt.
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:08.000
Elon Musk, maybe he doesn't have imposter syndrome, maybe he should have a little imposter syndrome.
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:10.480
Um, certain other political figures.
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.360
But like, you know, it's very human and it's natural, and I take a deep breath through it.
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:18.000
I try to really look at where I've come.
00:41:18.159 --> 00:41:20.400
Because, you know, someone once said this as well.
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:25.679
Like, for humans, you can't ever, especially for entrepreneurs and high achievers, like you're never gonna reach the horizon.
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:28.960
You just keep drawing a goal that's further off into the distance, right?
00:41:29.119 --> 00:41:30.480
And then we get imposter syndrome.
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.840
Oh my gosh, I'm never going to, I don't know.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:36.400
Let's say I wanted to dream about winning an Academy Award.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:38.000
I'm never gonna win an Academy Award.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.000
I don't know what I'm doing, but I won a Tony.
00:41:40.159 --> 00:41:41.440
Like, why don't I think about that?
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:42.800
Look at how far I've come.
00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:44.239
Oh, maybe I could do that.
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:47.039
Because there was a time where I was like, I'll never win a Tony Award.
00:41:47.119 --> 00:41:48.000
I'll never, ever, ever.
00:41:48.079 --> 00:41:48.639
I'm terrible.
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:49.920
Like, it's the same thing.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.280
It's really trying to stop.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:55.039
Wow, I've come a long way from when I was 16 and Saleh Miz.
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:57.119
If I've done it before, I can do it again.
00:41:57.280 --> 00:41:58.639
It's just not gonna be easy.
00:41:58.800 --> 00:41:59.599
I'm gonna sweat.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:00.719
It's always gonna be hard.
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:03.039
That's the other thing, it's just like, it's always gonna be hard.
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:06.480
But founders, golfers, we like to do hard things.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.320
That was the biggest realization for me.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:09.679
I could have done a lot of things.
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.840
All of us could have done a lot of things, being lawyers or investment bankers, whatever it is.
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:16.559
We chose this crazy thing because we like it.
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:19.119
Even on the worst days, deep down, we like it.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:20.320
Yeah, it's so true.
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:21.440
I can totally relate to that.
00:42:21.519 --> 00:42:23.760
And all the founders I work with can relate to that totally.
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:26.480
Kim, what do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:35.599
I wish I had listened to my father more, who was an Indian doctor, immigrated here in the 60s, not a very good business person, to be honest.
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:41.920
But he used to call me in college, and he's like the only Indian doctor, by the way, who didn't want his son to be a doctor.
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:48.559
So he encouraged me to pursue the theater, and then he used to call me and say things like, Where are you going tonight?
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:49.119
What are you doing?
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.400
And I was like, I'm gonna sit at home, I'm studying, or I'm writing something.
00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:55.119
He was like, You've got to go out and show face.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:56.239
That's what he used to say.
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.039
I'm like, What?
00:42:57.199 --> 00:43:02.719
Go up to Lincoln Center, they have a young, like, theater group there, or go somewhere where there are other people.
00:43:02.960 --> 00:43:10.000
In other words, he was saying, go network, network, relationships with other people are going to do so much more for you.
00:43:10.159 --> 00:43:12.079
Then sometimes even the work will.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:19.519
We all know people who are have achieved great like levels of success, and we're like, how the F did they do that?
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:21.519
They network their way to the top, right?
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:24.320
And I wish I had listened to him more and shown some more face.
00:43:24.559 --> 00:43:24.960
That's great.
00:43:25.039 --> 00:43:26.000
Do you show a face now?
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:28.960
I do, but it's still hard because I'm this introverted extrovert.
00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:31.679
So I'm like, oh, maybe I won't go to that thing.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:32.480
I'll just skip it.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:33.119
I'll go home.
00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:34.079
I'll do some work at home.
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:34.719
I'll work at home.
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:43.280
That'll be the like the crazy thing is with networking and all of it, if you like, it just takes one person, one person to change your life, your business trajectory, all of it.
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:45.440
But it's again like meeting a partner.
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.039
You know, like you got to get out there and meet a lot of people to find the one.
00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:50.079
And that's the thing.
00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:50.639
That's true.
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:55.440
Ken, last question what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journeys to grow into leaders?
00:43:55.679 --> 00:44:00.079
I think the advice is something similar to what I just said is remember you chose this.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.320
There's a very famous quote from Godfather 2, right?
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:12.719
Lee Strasberg, the actor, played the character, and Michael Corellone says something, and the character says, This is the business we've chosen.
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:14.960
Like it's like, oh, right, I did this.
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.360
No one was forcing me to become a founder.
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:18.719
I chose this.
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:19.280
All right.
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:21.519
So I'm gonna roll up my sleeves and get through it.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:22.480
So that's it.
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:24.159
Is remember you chose this.
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:28.880
You could do a lot of things, you wanted to do this, so just buckle up and do it.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:30.079
Buckle up and do it.
00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:30.639
I love it.
00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:32.000
Ken, thank you so much.
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:32.960
What a great discussion.
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:37.840
I know it's gonna help a lot of people, and I think people are gonna be really interested in the behind-the-scenes Broadway Peak.
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:38.800
So thanks for joining me.
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:39.599
My pleasure.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:40.639
Thanks for doing it.
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:43.760
Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grown Up.
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:48.639
If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it.
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:56.159
And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alysacone.com.