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00:00:26.010Hello everyone.
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00:00:31.130Welcome to another episode of Opscast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, empowered by all the mode pros out there.
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00:00:34.170I am your host, Michael Hartman, Flying Star Low once again.
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00:00:42.250But today I'm joined by Sheryl Isiman, who is head of marketing at Baeobab and the author of The Marketing Movement.
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00:00:46.810Sherelle brings a really interesting perspective to marketing leadership and organizational change.
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00:00:54.250One of the themes that stood out to me from previous conversations with her is that many organizations still fundamentally misunderstand what marketing is supposed to do.
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00:01:02.329Her work focuses less on teaching marketers how to market and more on helping organizations understand how to better work with marketing teams in the first place.
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00:01:04.730So we're going to spend a lot of time in the ops world.
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00:01:10.329Well, we spend a lot of time in the ops world talking about systems, processes, execution, reporting, alignment.
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00:01:29.290And we're going to go in deep into that in this conversation and really into the tension between strategy and execution, the role that ops teams can play as translators across the organization, and why activation, we'll get into what that means for her, is often the missing step between planning and results and how marketers could do a better job connecting the work to business impact.
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00:01:30.489Theme that I like.
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00:01:30.969All right.
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00:01:37.769We're also going to talk a little bit about her shape framework, which we'll get into storytelling versus dashboards, another hot topic for me.
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00:01:43.930Why marketing leaders need to constantly zoom in and zoom out between operational detail and strategic perspectives.
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00:01:46.329Sherelle, thank you for joining.
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00:01:48.170Thank you very much, Michael.
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00:01:50.409And hello, marketing ops community.
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00:01:52.730Yeah, we're glad to have you here.
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00:01:53.370All right.
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00:01:54.489Well, let's dig into this.
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00:02:09.129So one of the things from our earlier conversations that really stood out is that you're not really you didn't really try to write a book for marketers, which is an interesting one being your background, and that you're trying to help non-marketing leaders understand marketing better.
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00:02:10.810Why was that so important to you?
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00:02:14.730And what how, like, I'd be curious also, what's the reception been for it?
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00:02:26.889So it was important for me to do that because when I was looking at the market, there are so many books out there by marketers for marketers, and it's a complex profession.
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00:02:32.650Um, but it hasn't changed the way non-marketing leaders engage with the department of the function.
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00:02:42.250There's all these there are all these misconceptions and um preconceived ideas, um, which is not helping marketing do its best work.
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00:02:50.009So I was like, okay, I really need to find a way to get the best out of my leaders, the people I work with, uh, so that we can do a better job.
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00:02:53.849And it dawned on me that I actually need to start translating the functions.
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00:02:58.090But obviously, you don't want to translate the whole function to, you know, a non-marketing audience.
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00:03:07.930Uh, and that's when the idea slowly developed, and I was like, okay, I need to write a book uh that simplifies it enough for them to work well with us so that we do a better job.
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00:03:16.969So it came, it was, it was, it was a real crucial need in my day-to-day job to uh to have a better conversation with non-marketing leaders.
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00:03:20.569No, so it was a little bit of a survival instinct kind of thing.
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00:03:21.449Absolutely.
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00:03:24.490And it took a while to to to to get there as well.
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00:03:28.810Well, I'm fascinated by this because I think I don't know, it was several years ago.
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00:03:46.009I remember reading something, and I don't know if the data is still accurate, but somewhere uh I saw that it was like well less than 10%, maybe closer to under 5% of like board members or senior executives had never really worked in marketing themselves.
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00:03:49.610So they like they've just not really been in those shoes either.
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00:03:53.129So it makes sense that people don't understand it.
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00:03:55.370It does.
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00:03:58.810And I don't think I don't think they're necessarily too interested.
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00:04:05.530I think you know it's it's meant to be someone else's job, but it doesn't help the people who do that for a living do their best.
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00:04:07.210Yeah, yeah.
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00:04:20.330So what like when you when you started doing this, what what are the um what are some of the outdated assumptions about marketing or biggest misconceptions that um you see that that are happening in organizations?
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00:04:28.730I mean, I found it really depends on um when somebody was exposed to the marketing profession or a marketing team.
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00:04:33.449Some of them think it's advertising, if they're maybe an older generation, some might think it's PR.
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00:04:35.769There'll be people who see it just as social.
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00:04:41.690Um many just think it's you know, it's uh full of hype and campaigns and the pretty things.
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00:04:44.409Yeah, so many different misconceptions, really.
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00:04:46.250Um it depends who you speak to.
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00:04:47.289Sure.
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00:04:47.929Yeah.
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00:04:52.730I mean, it feels like um I remember one of the things I've talked about is like the the four P's, right?
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00:04:57.049There's like only one P seems to matter anymore, which is I guess promotion, right?
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00:05:00.009So yeah.
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00:05:19.529Um okay, so one of the things I've talked about before, and I think you and I talked about before that I agree with, is that part of the problem is actually on you know, sh at the feet of marketers who've not really done a great job of communicating what their role is, what they do to the rest of the organization.
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00:05:20.970Like, what's your take on that?
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00:05:22.730Do you mean do you think that's part of the problem?
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00:05:26.889And uh curious, like part of the told I hadn't read your book.
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00:05:34.730So is part of the what you do help to also address marketers, how could you better communicate to your executive team?
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00:05:35.850Definitely.
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00:05:42.090I think marketing professionals are you know too deep too deep in their daily routine and work.
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00:05:46.250And I don't think they translate their work very well, especially when it goes, you know, upstream.
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00:05:49.289I think it needs to start speaking or sound like business impact.
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00:05:54.649And you know, they're talking about so much detail that you know your average leader can't absorb.
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00:05:58.490And I also think um that there needs to be a tangle.
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00:06:03.049You need to be able to step out of your space into someone else's shoes to speak their language.
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00:06:11.769So there's a lot of translation and interpretation that needs to happen rather than you know, stick to the terms and and phrases that you would use in your day job.
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00:06:27.850Yeah, I mean, it's the irony to me in all this is that marketer, part of what I think are perceived as being good at is communicating, especially communicating to the to their audience, but they somehow regularly miss that on the internal audience, right?
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00:06:30.330I mean, that's the sort of irony of all this, right?
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00:06:31.370Absolutely.
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00:06:32.570I agree with you so much.
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00:06:34.809Uh I think there's more pressure though, isn't there?
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00:06:40.250When it's when it's your own, there's more pressure uh and you you you lean on the details too much.
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00:06:41.450Well, that's not the point.
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00:06:44.490And that's why in the book I used a lot of storytelling and metaphors.
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00:06:45.529So I simplified it.
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00:07:01.210So when I am explaining something uh related to marketing to a colleague or a leader, I'm not using you know a traditional language, I'm actually using a story, a metaphor, just something so different because they're not really that interested in our terminology.
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00:07:02.330So why go there?
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00:07:06.730Yeah, then and it would also be ducking down the profession a little bit, which I don't want to do.
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00:07:07.370Right.
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00:07:08.730Oh, that's a really good point.
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00:07:23.929I never thought, I mean, I'm with you on the storytelling piece, and maybe we can talk more about that in here in a bit, but I hadn't really thought about it as a way of dumbing, like dumbing it down so it actually contributes to this misperception of what it is.
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00:07:26.250That's um that's a really good insight.
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00:07:28.330Yeah, I love that.
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00:07:35.129Yeah, so well, okay, so maybe let's take this a little bit uh uh uh maybe a level deeper.
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00:07:40.409So as you know, right our audience is primarily marketing ops or rev ops people.
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00:07:56.250And one of one of the things I like about the the role is how it sits at an intersection between you know marketing, sales, finance, legal leadership, you know, it's sort of like you need you know, you've got to have have feet at least be able to translate well, right?
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00:08:02.889So I think that ops teams are uniquely positioned to help do that translation between marketing and the rest of the business.
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00:08:04.330Do you agree with that?
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00:08:09.289And if so, like what have you seen from the marketing ops teams in particular, I guess, that you've worked with?
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00:08:13.289How have they helped you helped you as a leader do that communication?
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00:08:18.730I definitely think market ops have a unique opportunity to translate.
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00:08:30.090I was thinking about it actually earlier today, and it's not just translation though, I think it's interpretation because you never know what problem they're gonna deal with or what misconception somebody puts on the table where they go, no, let me unpack that.
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00:08:30.889What do you really mean?
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00:08:33.289And you keep going, you're drilling deep until you get there.
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00:08:46.409So I think they have the opportunity with the one-on-ones, but I still think there is a responsibility for the marketing leader and leadership in general to set up to educate a bit the audience further, you know.
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00:08:50.090So I think you need to do it from the top and you know, basically one-on-one.
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00:08:52.090So there's a bit of both going on there.
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00:09:07.449Are you talking about from the top and the and one-on-one with I was trying to make sure the one-on-one, you're talking about like with the marketing leader and the marketing ops team or marketing ops leader one-on-one, or are you talking about one-on-one with conversations with others outside of the marketing organization?
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00:09:13.289I mean, it goes back to the communication uh element you talked about, really, isn't it?
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00:09:16.970I think you can't under you can't over-communicate in this instance.
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00:09:21.689Like if you've got an opportunity one-on-one to to clarify something, you need to go for it.
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00:09:26.730Uh, but I think the leadership team needs to be speaking the language of marketing so that they can use that in business.
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00:09:30.089I think uh it's it's it's kind of cross-functional.
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00:09:37.850It just you need to communicate it from so many different angles because the misconception is uh the baseline, you know, that is the truth.
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00:09:44.569Our baseline is that they don't understand, and then we're not gonna all of a sudden educate a non-marketing audience, it doesn't make sense either.
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00:09:47.449So you've got to find a different way to do it to influence.
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00:09:48.009Yeah.
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00:10:00.169Have you uh so just curious, have you um, because I've I've been asked to do this, sit in with the CMO and meetings with the senior executives and try to like actually be the one to when the CFO asks a question, right?
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00:10:02.889Right, I am I'm the one ask uh answering the questions.
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00:10:17.850Have you brought in your marketing ops team to help with some of that facilitating some of that uh communication with executive teams, or do you tend to make sure that you're comfortable understanding it and then and then do that translation yourself?
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00:10:26.970I think you have to bring in the team because um otherwise you come across as a one-man band, you know, you have all the answers, and that defeats the point.
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00:10:29.769You do have a team, that's the whole point of what marketing is like.
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00:10:33.449There are generalists, there are specialists, and you don't have the answers yourself.
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00:10:35.370Somebody can explain it better than you sometimes.
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00:10:42.970So I think the breadth is important, it gives more credibility to um the kind of message you need to portray.
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00:10:44.009Yeah.
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00:10:54.169And what I find is when you get into those scenarios, very often there you may be prepared as well as you can be, but then there will be a question that comes up that you would need somebody else to help you answer.
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00:10:54.730Absolutely.
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00:11:01.769So it's having somebody there who can can address those, or at least say, Yes, we can address that, and this is how we're gonna do it, and we'll bring it back to you next time, right?
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00:11:03.449I think there's different ways to handle that.
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00:11:09.129But well, I'm glad to hear that because I think I don't know that a lot of marketing ops teams get to do that.
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00:11:14.730I think they're held kind of at arm's length from the other teams in case in some cases.
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00:11:15.610All right.
00:11:15.610 -->
00:11:22.569So I mentioned this when I when I when I introduced you, the idea of um zooming in and zooming out.
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00:11:27.049You mentioned in our previous conversations of support to be doing that sort of zooming and zooming out.
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00:11:29.689I guess first of all, like what do you mean by that, right?
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00:11:40.089Um, and then why is it why do you think it's hard for most marketing organizations to maintain that that that balance of going back and forth between zooming and zooming out?
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00:11:47.049So the reason why I like the idea of zooming in and zooming out because nothing is static, you know.
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00:11:51.769Um the conditions of the situations that you're dealing with are never static.
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00:11:59.289They keep changing, and that's why the book ended up uh uh being called The Market and Movement, because I realize things are always moving, they're always changing.
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00:12:08.409So um, and zooming in and zooming out is because it's one thing to have a strategy and to have execution, but sometimes you've got to go back and go, why am I doing this?
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00:12:10.409And say, and then you're still doing it.
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00:12:13.049And it's just just kind of it's like this reminder.
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00:12:14.730So, and that's why I feel like you're moving.
00:12:14.730 -->
00:12:16.970That's why the word movement was such a big deal to me.
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00:12:20.250Because um, and I was thinking about strategy just today as well.
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00:12:26.009It's not just business strategy, it's your marketing strategy and then your brand strategy, your growth, et cetera, et cetera.
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00:12:28.730So you can't keep all of that in your mind, you know.
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00:12:33.689So you have to step away, uh, you know, big picture and then the details and so on and so forth.
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00:12:36.089So you need to be able to move like that.
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00:12:38.250Uh I'm curious.
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00:12:50.649So not quite on the same level, but I've worked in a market, at least one marketing organization is the one I can think, I think of when I come to this, where the marketing leadership team worked really hard on developing norms of how we're going to operate within the marketing team.
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00:12:54.409Well, start out with the leadership team, and then we said, well, let's roll this out to the rest of the team.
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00:13:02.730And one of the things we did, this was still when we were all in an office, was literally had a one pager that was like, like we said, you know, put it up on your desk.
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00:13:05.049We're print it out, put it up on your desk as a reminder.
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00:13:07.689Do you do you think there would be value in having something like that?
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00:13:14.649That's these reminders between like on a daily basis, like here's this, like here's our big picture strategy, what we're trying to achieve.
00:13:14.649 -->
00:13:18.889So when you're working on something, like are you or something comes in from a side, right?
00:13:18.889 -->
00:13:21.209I is it is it aligned with that or not, right?
00:13:21.209 -->
00:13:24.569Or is it are we knowing that it's not, but we still have to deal with it, right?
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00:13:26.970Do you think there's be value in something like that?
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00:13:32.089It's so interesting that you say that because you know we were all in the same office, but we're not.
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00:13:36.730I mean, my team is around the world, so I don't have that privilege at all, actually.
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00:13:48.089I mean, we do have like you know, one slide which summarizes everything, but also I think that's great for the team, the marketing team itself, but it doesn't mean everyone else is looking at the same one page, right?
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00:13:48.730So true.
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00:13:50.569Yeah.
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00:13:56.970And I also think a lot I also find that most business leaders that they want to talk and to be heard.
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00:14:11.929So you when you intervene, um, you've kind of got to be to the point and it's very solution-oriented, which goes back to your point, right bringing in the rest of the team, because I think they can often brainstorm live and solve a problem live uh with that with the extra details.
00:14:12.730 -->
00:14:12.970Yeah.
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00:14:44.329Well, and what I find in those is like if there's a a problem or something that you're trying to resolve, usually most cases I found like there's not a clear definitive this is the direction we should go or the answer to that problem, and that there's trade-offs between different ones and having more perspectives tend in in encouraging that kind of um you know active debate or discussion um is is usually generates the best understanding of what those trade-offs are gonna be.
00:14:44.329 -->
00:14:46.009So you can make an informed decision, right?
00:14:46.009 -->
00:14:54.809You know that, like, oh, we're gonna go down this path, and we know that that means that we're gonna be giving up this thing, or there's a risk that we're gonna take on.
00:14:54.809 -->
00:14:56.730Uh, but I think that's the reality of it.
00:14:56.730 -->
00:15:01.449I think that's the value of having those different voices in in a discussion like that.
00:15:02.089 -->
00:15:02.970Absolutely.
00:15:02.970 -->
00:15:05.929And to your point, I think having the North Star makes sense.
00:15:05.929 -->
00:15:10.970So you need that, and you need to, you need to obviously, once you've realized your strategy, implement.
00:15:10.970 -->
00:15:14.970But I think um how that that changes quite a bit.
00:15:15.289 -->
00:15:16.649Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:16.649 -->
00:15:21.449Yeah, and I I mean, I'm a big fan of like I probably mentioned this on this project before.
00:15:21.449 -->
00:15:23.689I'm a big fan of one of the books that really influence me.
00:15:23.689 -->
00:15:30.409It's called Execution, the Discipline of Getting Things Done, which is a little bit of a like rough title to get through.
00:15:30.409 -->
00:15:41.289But I mean, what I remember what really stuck out to me is like strategy is important, but you need a strategy that can be you, you know, you just need to start executing, you're not going to be able to predict everything.
00:15:41.289 -->
00:15:45.209And so you need to be to have one that's flexible enough that you can adjust, right?
00:15:45.209 -->
00:15:47.289Now, there may be North Star things, right?
00:15:47.289 -->
00:15:55.689Core things you need to achieve or goals you're you're setting, but I think leaving the room for adjustment is really important in the strategy.
00:15:55.689 -->
00:15:59.529So um that's really like a point of view I have.
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00:16:06.649I so okay, so one of the things in your, I think it's in your book you developed was the framework called Shape, so S H A P E, right?
00:16:06.649 -->
00:16:12.569So uh why don't you walk us through what that is and you know why why people should care about it?
00:16:13.449 -->
00:16:15.610So I actually developed the framework at the end.
00:16:15.610 -->
00:16:18.730I had written all the chapters and then like, okay, what does this mean?
00:16:18.730 -->
00:16:20.169You know, what am I trying to say here?
00:16:20.169 -->
00:16:26.009And it dawned on me that the sections of the book were basically a whole framework that kind of summarizes it.
00:16:26.009 -->
00:16:37.529And the reason why I chose the shape framework is because um the book is about shaping the foundation uh for a team to succeed, you know, and um and the then the five letters stand for something.
00:16:37.529 -->
00:16:49.610So shape is your strategy, your alignment, um, you know, exactly you know, your North Star, um heart is people, it's brand, it's all the things to do with feeling and connecting.
00:16:49.610 -->
00:16:58.490Uh, activation was the really interesting one, which is the probably what the heart of the book itself, which is just all the work you need to do to be ready to be in business.
00:16:58.490 -->
00:17:05.130Um, and then purpose is pretty straightforward because it's inspired by the brand, by the business, what the impact, the impact the company's trying to have.
00:17:05.130 -->
00:17:06.730And execution is a no-brainer.
00:17:06.730 -->
00:17:07.610We all know that one.
00:17:07.610 -->
00:17:11.610So I found that strategy and execution, everybody knows them pretty well.
00:17:11.610 -->
00:17:16.170But it's the elements in between that I was like, okay, don't forget about these.
00:17:16.170 -->
00:17:20.329And I've just I described the shape uh framework as pillars.
00:17:20.329 -->
00:17:25.850And if you were just to imagine that, imagine having some pillars that are, you know, sturdy and the others that are crumbling.
00:17:25.850 -->
00:17:27.130It would just not make any sense.
00:17:27.130 -->
00:17:31.769So what I'm arguing is you can't have a few and not the rest, you have to have them all.
00:17:31.769 -->
00:17:39.210And it's because I've seen many instances where one of them is neglected or overlooked, and I just don't think it may I don't think it works that way.
00:17:39.210 -->
00:17:43.129You you need to treat them um the same level of importance.
00:17:43.690 -->
00:17:45.930No, this is a I I think this is really interesting.
00:17:45.930 -->
00:17:53.289So the the strategy and execution people tend to understand, and they're easiest probably to describe, right?
00:17:53.289 -->
00:17:56.009Yeah, and there's sort of the bookends is required.
00:17:56.009 -->
00:18:01.849I like this idea that there's these other elements that you could use as a way of communicating other components.
00:18:01.849 -->
00:18:05.289And um yeah, I think I think it's interesting.
00:18:05.289 -->
00:18:17.049It feels like some of those, this is where it gets a little bit squishy, probably, because there's elements of that that seem to apply both to like internal stakeholders and executives as well as customer-facing stuff.
00:18:17.049 -->
00:18:18.730Am I understanding that right?
00:18:19.129 -->
00:18:21.129Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:21.129 -->
00:18:28.250And I wanted to translate that way as well because you've got to align yourself internally to then you know do the work you need to do externally.
00:18:28.250 -->
00:18:30.490You know, that it's a mirror from my perspective.
00:18:30.490 -->
00:18:33.609So you have to get your uh pillars in order.
00:18:34.089 -->
00:18:34.569Got it.
00:18:34.569 -->
00:18:36.089Yeah, this is this is really interesting.
00:18:36.089 -->
00:18:44.649All right, so the activation one in shape um is probably the one that feels the most connected to our ops audience.
00:18:44.649 -->
00:18:47.210Um, and it feels like it might be an overlooked one.
00:18:47.210 -->
00:18:49.289Uh, can you break that down a little more?
00:18:49.289 -->
00:19:00.889And and when you say um the like the things that they need to do, like what are what are organizations missing when it comes to activation and readiness to to move forward with the strategy and execution?
00:19:01.849 -->
00:19:07.609I think when it comes to activation, um it's about being ready to do something, whatever it is, whatever your goals are.
00:19:07.609 -->
00:19:15.849I find that it's taken for granted that somebody's gonna activate, somebody's gonna sort out what you need to do so that you're basically um starting a race.
00:19:15.849 -->
00:19:18.009And that's why I've used metaphors in the book.
00:19:18.009 -->
00:19:28.410And I like the F1 metaphor quite a bit because imagine starting a race but not having wheels, or nobody checking the engine, or there's no driver, or I mean, there's a million problems you can imagine.
00:19:28.410 -->
00:19:31.450And we all appreciate you know the nature of a race.
00:19:31.450 -->
00:19:32.730It's the same thing.
00:19:32.730 -->
00:19:41.049If you don't have a checklist that you've gone through, having got the right resources, people, systems, all of it, um, you're gonna flop, you're gonna fail.
00:19:41.049 -->
00:19:58.649Um, so and that's I find that one a really good way to explain activation because, like I said earlier, people don't really want to understand how marketing works, but they can absolutely appreciate that they wouldn't dare, you know, uh put a racing team on the track that wasn't ready to race and win.
00:19:58.649 -->
00:20:01.690So it's it's like, oh, okay, I get why you're saying this.
00:20:01.690 -->
00:20:05.930I don't know the details, but I'll appreciate it and I'll let you do what you need to do.
00:20:05.930 -->
00:20:08.009You know, so that was where it came from.
00:20:08.490 -->
00:20:19.210So it sounds like there's a little bit of element of that that um I don't know that I picked up on when we first talked about it, is has to be with clarity around roles and responsibilities, too, right?
00:20:19.210 -->
00:20:30.329Because take the F1 one, like if it's not clear who's gonna be the one, you know taking the wheels, like doing the release of the wheels, and it's who's gonna put them back on, who's gonna tighten them?
00:20:30.329 -->
00:20:34.329Like everybody's got individual roles um and responsibilities.
00:20:34.329 -->
00:20:39.129And if any one of them falls apart, right, car goes out and the wheel comes off.
00:20:39.129 -->
00:20:40.809I mean, is that part of it too?
00:20:40.809 -->
00:20:50.250Is it just not only because that's probably like the you described sort of like these are the things that we would need to do to be able to activate to move forward, but there's also like who's gonna do what?
00:20:50.250 -->
00:20:52.170Is that part of it as well?
00:20:52.569 -->
00:20:57.369It is because it's the system, it's the people, it could be resources of any kind.
00:20:57.369 -->
00:20:59.769Um, all of them come together.
00:20:59.769 -->
00:21:02.250It's quite a chunky part, I think, to be fair.
00:21:02.250 -->
00:21:12.089And I and I do feel like um there are assumptions because somebody might be assuming a role um and they're busy with this, they can't do that, but both things need to be done.
00:21:12.089 -->
00:21:14.970Um, so yeah, it's it's all of those things.
00:21:14.970 -->
00:21:20.089And I find them they're they're very operational, you know, going back to marketing often are very operational.
00:21:20.089 -->
00:21:30.889It's kind of like it's someone else's uh job to do, because the higher you go up in leadership, the more strategy is you know, everybody's focus, and execution is very easy to see.
00:21:31.529 -->
00:21:31.930Yeah.
00:21:31.930 -->
00:21:38.170Well, and I think what happens if that's not that's not clear is people make assumptions about who's gonna do what.
00:21:38.170 -->
00:21:49.529And then when it doesn't happen, because I assumed you were gonna do it, but you didn't you assumed that someone else was gonna do it or no, or you didn't think it was yours, then it doesn't get done, and then everyone pays the price for that.
00:21:50.089 -->
00:21:51.289Absolutely, yeah.
00:21:51.849 -->
00:21:53.529Yeah, and I think that's that's important.
00:21:53.529 -->
00:21:55.609Um, so it's it's interesting.
00:21:55.609 -->
00:22:01.210I maybe it's interesting now that we've talked about the the two outside parts of shape and the the one that's in the middle.
00:22:01.210 -->
00:22:11.210Um maybe maybe talk about like I I I don't fully understand the the I can't remember what H stands for now.
00:22:11.210 -->
00:22:12.490I was off the top of my head.
00:22:12.490 -->
00:22:18.250So the H in the in the P in shape, what can I talk through those again a little more detail, please?
00:22:18.889 -->
00:22:19.210Sure.
00:22:19.210 -->
00:22:20.970So the H is heart.
00:22:20.970 -->
00:22:34.649So um heart for me it Basically, it relates to uh the brand, it relates to people, so internal stakeholders, the customer, customer sensor, the voice of the customer, connecting, communication, all of those elements.
00:22:34.649 -->
00:22:40.490Um, because you do need a communication plan, you need obviously a customer engagement plan, you need to have a brand.
00:22:40.490 -->
00:22:46.089You know, you you know, brand is a foundation element, and membership is about shaping your foundation.
00:22:46.089 -->
00:22:47.450So that's what heart is about.
00:22:47.450 -->
00:22:52.490It's all those elements that make the uh experience warm, is one way to look at it.
00:22:52.490 -->
00:22:54.490That's why I chose the word heart.
00:22:54.490 -->
00:23:05.690And um, as for P purpose, and it really is very much related to the strategy you have, uh, your business objectives, your mission, your vision, what you're trying to achieve, the impact you will have on the community.
00:23:05.690 -->
00:23:13.930Uh, it's just that extra layer of uh you know uh orienting you, I suppose, to what you're trying to achieve.
00:23:14.250 -->
00:23:14.569Okay.
00:23:14.569 -->
00:23:28.329I think okay, so the hard one has to do with um how we want both internal stakeholders and customers or prospects to kind of feel about the brand.
00:23:28.329 -->
00:23:33.289I mean, I'm paraphrasing, is that close to what I'm just you're saying?
00:23:33.609 -->
00:23:37.690Yeah, it's the it's to how they will engage the brand because I mean, what will a brand do?
00:23:37.690 -->
00:23:50.250I mean, a brand is important for your foundation as a marketing team, uh as a marketing team, but how do you know a brand is successful if it's resonating with the customers and it is actually helping you with your growth marketing and so on and so forth?
00:23:50.250 -->
00:23:57.769And uh for it to resonate externally, it needs to be uh, you know, adopted and you need people need to believe in it internally.
00:23:57.769 -->
00:24:00.250So it just plays such an important foundation.
00:24:00.250 -->
00:24:07.129It's not just logos and colors and uh taglines and those those kind of you know, yeah, that's like the least part of it.
00:24:07.129 -->
00:24:09.210Face value things, yeah, exactly.
00:24:09.210 -->
00:24:10.730Yeah, it's it's it's the heart.
00:24:10.730 -->
00:24:23.049That's why I like to uh describe it as the heart because you either feel it, it moves you, uh it does something uh which which is intangible until you quantify it as equity, but you know, it does matter and it does help you move.
00:24:23.049 -->
00:24:26.809And that's the whole point is you want to move an organization forward.
00:24:27.129 -->
00:24:39.769Yeah, well, and and then the purpose is really, I think it feels like it's alignment around um values, norms, um, you know, what's the bigger purpose, right?
00:24:39.769 -->
00:24:41.210Uh of the organization.
00:24:41.210 -->
00:24:46.089And I mean, I think that's important because especially if you're in an organization, like people want to be part of something that has purpose.
00:24:46.089 -->
00:24:51.129I think I think there's a lot of that missing in a lot of people's professional lives.
00:24:51.129 -->
00:25:07.129Um and I want to drill down those because I feels like the it would be easy to skip over those from an operation standpoint, but it feels like again, kind of going back to like having something in front of you that goes like this is the norms we expect for us, right?
00:25:07.129 -->
00:25:12.329So if we're gonna live out our values, this is like this is how we're gonna communicate, both internally and externally.
00:25:12.329 -->
00:25:15.210This is the expectations we're gonna have for people.
00:25:15.210 -->
00:25:23.129Um and the the the hard part, here's what like the where it comes to me with uh from an op standpoint.
00:25:23.129 -->
00:25:24.569I would love to get your take on this.
00:25:24.569 -->
00:25:39.529Is one of the things I see a lot of organizations, especially big organizations, is there's this um this in sort of uh a norm that happens is like we're like really cautious about how people communicate to customers, right?
00:25:39.529 -->
00:25:41.289Or who can do it.
00:25:41.289 -->
00:25:47.210And uh, and then maybe there's lots of layers of approvals and reviews on content and things like that.
00:25:47.210 -->
00:25:50.009And I'm like that's such a slowdown thing.
00:25:50.009 -->
00:26:11.129Like, if we if we let people like we give people the grace, like we trust you to do this because you all understand there's elements that are part of heart and purpose that we trust you you're gonna make the best decisions you can in the moment to say communicate with a frustrated customer or something, um, and then give grace with it if it doesn't go well, and then learn from it.
00:26:11.129 -->
00:26:14.250Like in my like that's why I feel like it's an important piece.
00:26:14.250 -->
00:26:22.569And it's it's really I don't think a lot of organizations I've seen or been around have really talked about that and then lived it out.
00:26:23.450 -->
00:26:24.490Absolutely agree with you.
00:26:24.490 -->
00:26:25.289And it's interesting.
00:26:25.289 -->
00:26:31.450I think we do a lot of uh we do a lot of brand education um where I work right now.
00:26:31.450 -->
00:26:36.089And um I think people who are customer facing still feel the pressure.
00:26:36.089 -->
00:26:38.410Um, did I am gonna say the right thing?
00:26:38.410 -->
00:26:40.329Um when you would you want to check this?
00:26:40.329 -->
00:26:41.289Uh, should I do this?
00:26:41.289 -->
00:26:42.329Should it not do that?
00:26:42.329 -->
00:26:56.569And I'm at the moment, I'm trying to encourage everybody to just, you know, live the brand, represent it, you know, like as long as you are moving forward with good intent, the chances are you are gonna do the right thing because you've got all the right values, ideas, and training in place.
00:26:56.569 -->
00:27:01.849And I do think you need to do that because I don't think you can't we can't be a bottleneck anymore.
00:27:01.849 -->
00:27:08.649And time is changing, you know, like we've got all these platforms, uh social, um, user-generated content, all of that.
00:27:08.649 -->
00:27:10.649And it's it's normal to generate content.
00:27:10.649 -->
00:27:14.889So if you don't know how to represent your brand, uh I'd say it's a bit outdated.
00:27:14.889 -->
00:27:17.529You need to be able to do that because it's just everyday life.
00:27:17.529 -->
00:27:20.730Content is so easy to create, and we all do that.
00:27:20.970 -->
00:27:22.809Yeah, well, and it exactly.
00:27:22.809 -->
00:27:36.730We're all this is when I was doing work in like customer service kind of or customer support kind of stuff, is um, you know, people always had to use very rigid, structured ways of pushing knowledge-based content out, right?
00:27:36.730 -->
00:27:39.849And it took so long, it never got reviewed.
00:27:39.849 -->
00:27:43.930And so people who were actually doing the communicating directly had their own version, right?
00:27:43.930 -->
00:27:45.450They were already communicating stuff.
00:27:45.450 -->
00:27:50.009So I was like, why put all these hurdles in the way of getting it out?
00:27:50.009 -->
00:27:56.490If it's we think if we truly believe that getting these answers to customers so they can solve their own problems faster is useful.
00:27:56.490 -->
00:28:04.490And it was such a hard thing to get people to really go like, oh yeah, like that recognition, like the communication's already happening, whether you know it or not.
00:28:04.490 -->
00:28:06.490Now we can at least make it more visible.
00:28:06.889 -->
00:28:07.930Absolutely, yeah.
00:28:07.930 -->
00:28:08.569Yeah.
00:28:08.569 -->
00:28:10.250And it's a bit of trust, isn't it?
00:28:10.250 -->
00:28:11.369There's a bit of trust there, isn't there?
00:28:11.369 -->
00:28:14.089I think people want to give them a bit of trust.
00:28:14.089 -->
00:28:16.170And you know, if it's not perfect, so be it.
00:28:16.170 -->
00:28:24.809You know, you but I think intent, I do think customers uh read intent, you know, as long as the intention was well and uh it's behaving.
00:28:24.809 -->
00:28:28.970So it's better to show up than to be too scared to show up.
00:28:29.369 -->
00:28:32.170Yeah, and and I I totally agree with that.
00:28:32.170 -->
00:28:48.490Okay, so um we talked about like the strategy execution are pretty well understood, and um I think in some ways I think marketers tend to part of their communication tends to fall towards what called execution, including the metrics about execution.
00:28:48.490 -->
00:28:59.129Why why do you think that um why do you think that there's it feels like there's more celebration of execution versus strategy in a lot of organizations?
00:28:59.129 -->
00:29:00.250Why do you think that is?
00:29:00.250 -->
00:29:02.809Or might tell me I'm off base here.
00:29:03.930 -->
00:29:05.450No, I I think I agree with you.
00:29:05.450 -->
00:29:10.089I I think execution, if I was just to think of an army, I think execution is the soldiers.
00:29:10.089 -->
00:29:14.410They just so many people are executed, there's so much work to be executed, to be done, right?
00:29:14.410 -->
00:29:18.490But strategy, you know, it's very much uh a direction, you know.
00:29:18.490 -->
00:29:23.210You you in a way, once you know where you're going, you know, you don't change your strategy every day, do you?
00:29:23.210 -->
00:29:25.849But it takes so much to realize that strategy.
00:29:25.849 -->
00:29:27.609So I suppose that's what happens.
00:29:27.609 -->
00:29:36.809Um, so I think we we we end up having this comfort that a strategy is done and realized or sorted out, you know, and that all the work now is execution.
00:29:36.809 -->
00:29:39.769But interestingly, your strategy sometimes has to change, doesn't it?
00:29:39.769 -->
00:29:46.170Sometimes you have to fear, sometimes, you know, you know, the market's changed or you know, it doesn't work anymore.
00:29:46.170 -->
00:29:47.369That that will happen too.
00:29:47.529 -->
00:29:49.129So yeah.
00:29:49.129 -->
00:29:51.529I mean, that's why I'm a big fan of having a strategy.
00:29:51.529 -->
00:29:55.289I I don't want to discount the effort you should put into developing a strategy.
00:29:55.289 -->
00:29:56.970I think you need to have that.
00:29:56.970 -->
00:30:02.809But I think, again, like having the flexibility to adjust based on what really happened.
00:30:02.809 -->
00:30:06.009The the analogy I use, even though I'm not a sailor, is sailing, right?
00:30:06.009 -->
00:30:08.170I know I want to go from point A to point B.
00:30:08.170 -->
00:30:11.129The best I know is the conditions that are really close to me.
00:30:11.129 -->
00:30:13.210What I don't know is when I get out, right?
00:30:13.210 -->
00:30:15.529Is the wind shift, wind going to change direction?
00:30:15.529 -->
00:30:16.410Is it gonna stop?
00:30:16.410 -->
00:30:23.529Is it like, and I have to be really ready to adjust to still make it to like head in the right direction and then then learn and adjust.
00:30:23.529 -->
00:30:27.369And that's like I feel like that's the way strategy should be, right?
00:30:27.369 -->
00:30:30.089You need to like, oh, I need to go here from here to there.
00:30:30.089 -->
00:30:35.129I know generally where I how I need to start going there, but I need to be flexible.
00:30:35.690 -->
00:30:36.730Absolutely.
00:30:36.730 -->
00:30:44.170One of the chapters in the book, um, and I I used metaphors uh related to direction, and it was the audience is the compass.
00:30:44.170 -->
00:30:48.649And I think ultimately, you know, that is how you know which way you need to go.
00:30:48.649 -->
00:30:51.930Um, and I'm going back to the F1 when I was listening to you there as well.
00:30:51.930 -->
00:30:56.250Like when people are on the track, but when they're making decisions which race to join, it's the same thing.
00:30:56.250 -->
00:30:59.529You you can't do everything in anything uh as well.
00:30:59.529 -->
00:31:04.009Um, you've got to choose what actually makes sense for the business and what you're trying to achieve.
00:31:04.009 -->
00:31:04.889So yeah.
00:31:05.289 -->
00:31:13.450I mean, it's it's this is like one of the biggest lessons, both in personal productivity and in business, is like choosing wisely what to say no to.
00:31:13.769 -->
00:31:15.210Yeah, very much so.
00:31:15.210 -->
00:31:16.329Absolutely.
00:31:16.809 -->
00:31:21.369Um, because we all feel like we want to do like a lot of us in this space want to do more.
00:31:21.369 -->
00:31:27.450Um, okay, so I want to get maybe this is where we can kind of move come back to the storytelling piece.
00:31:27.450 -->
00:31:35.930So one of the things I think you and I talked about talked about before was you know, there's obviously a need for reporting and metrics.
00:31:35.930 -->
00:31:40.889And um, oftentimes it comes to marketing ops teams, is like I want a dashboard.
00:31:40.889 -->
00:31:50.970So one of the challenges I keep running into is that um, yeah, sometimes like there's a desire to do metrics for metric's sake almost, right?
00:31:50.970 -->
00:31:56.250And they don't internally don't always match what kind of going back to the original premise, right?
00:31:56.250 -->
00:31:58.889That the other parts of the business don't understand marketing.
00:31:58.889 -->
00:32:08.970From your perspective, how should marketing leaders be thinking differently about what they're measuring and reporting to the organization?
00:32:08.970 -->
00:32:14.410And where does like and then maybe go into like where the storytelling piece comes in?
00:32:16.089 -->
00:32:21.289Well, when it comes to metrics and dashboards, uh I used Metaphor Sweet Shop.
00:32:21.289 -->
00:32:22.490And I think it really is.
00:32:22.490 -->
00:32:24.410I feel like dashboards are like a sweet shop.
00:32:24.410 -->
00:32:30.970You go in there, and there's so many things you could buy or taste or try, but do they really do you really need them or you don't?
00:32:30.970 -->
00:32:32.649And I think that's the same thing as dashboards.
00:32:32.649 -->
00:32:41.369I think you know, an ideal dashboard for a mature organization um has a lot in there, but then different stakeholders need to see from a different perspective.
00:32:41.369 -->
00:32:44.009So, anyway, you need different versions of that.
00:32:44.009 -->
00:32:52.250Um, and it can get exciting because the data gives you a lot of obviously helps you make decisions, but you you really don't need it all.
00:32:52.250 -->
00:32:56.889And and different stakeholders and different levels in the organization need different data anyway.
00:32:56.889 -->
00:33:06.649So I I've actually I really shy away from dashboards and I kind of like the idea of what one thing to really need to know, one thing at a time, one thing at a time.
00:33:06.649 -->
00:33:10.730And and it goes back to the sweet shop, like a sugar rush, a sugar rush, you know.
00:33:10.730 -->
00:33:11.930You just don't need them all.
00:33:11.930 -->
00:33:15.849You need one thing, and just if it's social, just to keep it really simple.
00:33:15.849 -->
00:33:22.569Um, you know, if you're starting out fresh, maybe you need followers, maybe it really is just how many people see me, know me.
00:33:22.569 -->
00:33:25.129Uh, but eventually you need engagement, nothing else.
00:33:25.129 -->
00:33:28.009Just focus on that and and you keep evolving.
00:33:28.009 -->
00:33:32.889But I don't think you want measuring them all just feels like you're getting busy.
00:33:32.889 -->
00:33:34.329I think it's like an overload.
00:33:34.329 -->
00:33:39.609And I don't find it helps because uh it just becomes overwhelming and you don't know which one you want to advance.
00:33:39.609 -->
00:33:45.450And you need to uh when I did the shape framework, I also came up with the Move It Readiness Index.
00:33:45.450 -->
00:33:48.649And concept there was what's your next quarter moves?
00:33:48.649 -->
00:33:50.250What's the one thing you need to do?
00:33:50.250 -->
00:33:50.970Just one thing.
00:33:50.970 -->
00:33:56.170I like to scale it back so much uh because I've needed to scale it back myself so often as well.
00:33:56.170 -->
00:34:00.089You know, when I've gone, oh my god, there's all these things that everybody wants and expects of me.
00:34:00.089 -->
00:34:06.970But really, which one will I focus on so that I can go and say, okay, I move the needle here, and this was the impact.
00:34:06.970 -->
00:34:14.170Um, so I think of metrics uh and dashboards as a sweet shop, like you can't have them all, you have to be disciplined, you know.
00:34:15.130 -->
00:34:16.170That's a fun analogy.
00:34:16.170 -->
00:34:24.809Yeah, I mean, I think every time I get I've been asked to like go build a dashboard and we didn't have any others like like no, I uh I almost want to say no.
00:34:24.809 -->
00:34:33.130I usually don't just say no, but I will say, like, kind of to your point, like what are the things like what are the initial metrics you think we should we you we need?
00:34:33.130 -->
00:34:35.690And let's start there, like let's nail that down.
00:34:35.690 -->
00:34:48.010Um, but you you hit you hinted at this, and I think this is a really important point is even if we say we want to do all these metrics, not all of them are appropriate for every audience, right?
00:34:48.010 -->
00:34:56.570And I think that's a really important distinction that that a lot of marketing and marketing ops teams need to understand is it's amazing how much data we have as marketers now.
00:34:56.570 -->
00:34:57.690It's truly incredible.
00:34:57.690 -->
00:34:58.090Yeah.
00:34:58.090 -->
00:35:03.850So, like, like, and so there's this, I think there's this urge to be data driven in quotes, right?
00:35:03.850 -->
00:35:15.930Which I really hate even using that term because I like I think it the the risk there is that you get caught up in data for data's sake and not useful, especially for the right the wrong audience, right?
00:35:15.930 -->
00:35:19.850So if you're talking about, I you give you your example, your social media ones, right?
00:35:19.850 -->
00:35:25.450I don't know how much the CEO or CFO is going to care about that unless you can bridge that with a story, right?
00:35:25.450 -->
00:35:28.090Yeah, this is why we care about engagement, right?
00:35:28.090 -->
00:35:31.930Um, but you don't necessarily need to show all the other stuff underneath it.
00:35:31.930 -->
00:35:38.650Now, should the the marketing team, especially the p team that's working on that, understand the sort other details of that?
00:35:38.650 -->
00:35:40.090Absolutely, right?
00:35:40.090 -->
00:35:42.970But that's a different audience for a different purpose, yeah.
00:35:42.970 -->
00:35:43.690Yeah.
00:35:43.690 -->
00:36:03.610So tell me your like I I know I have my own sort of version of why I think storytelling is a is a missed opportunity for a lot of marketers, and I think it goes back to this desire to be more seen as data driven, that we've almost gone too far in the direction of just presenting data and numbers as opposed to telling stories internally.
00:36:03.610 -->
00:36:05.210What like what's your take on it?
00:36:05.210 -->
00:36:08.490Like, is there a time that like something clicked for you where that happened?
00:36:08.490 -->
00:36:13.050Or what's your like what's your view on storytelling as a part of measurement?
00:36:14.490 -->
00:36:20.730I think for me, storytelling is basically helping this the person you speak to understand.
00:36:20.730 -->
00:36:24.570I think they're you know, the mind is like a parachute, it works best when it's open.
00:36:24.570 -->
00:36:29.769And I think if you throw numbers at people, um they're trying to comprehend and take it all in and connect the dots.
00:36:29.769 -->
00:36:32.970But if you if you deliver that as a story, it's it's easier.
00:36:32.970 -->
00:36:35.290You know, they can just they can absorb what you mean.
00:36:35.290 -->
00:36:39.450Um, and that's why I go back to metaphors again because metaphors stories are kind of work together.
00:36:39.450 -->
00:36:50.250But I think it just helps something land quicker, and I think it neutralizes my terminology as a professional and your terminology of professional, and it just helps us speak plain English in a way, really.
00:36:50.250 -->
00:36:52.570And I find stories help us do that.
00:36:52.570 -->
00:36:59.210They're quick, they're short, there's a bit of emotion in there, so we could kind of get it, but you're also delivering, you know, a few facts here and there.
00:36:59.210 -->
00:37:02.410So I like delivering stories that way because of that.
00:37:02.410 -->
00:37:08.730And also from my side, I don't remember every term that uh I need to use as well.
00:37:08.730 -->
00:37:16.650So it's like me making sure I will deliver uh a story that you know resonates and people understand rather than trying to go, okay, remember this and this and that.
00:37:16.650 -->
00:37:19.850You know, so it's it's delivery and it's also how it's received.
00:37:19.850 -->
00:37:22.970You know, I find it just makes it so much easier for communication.
00:37:23.290 -->
00:37:26.650Yeah, I mean, I love the idea of analogies or metaphors.
00:37:26.650 -->
00:37:30.170Um, curious what your take is like how important is it?
00:37:30.170 -->
00:37:42.490Because you you kind of, I'm not sure I picked this up, but it sounded like you don't love, I'm putting putting words in mind, don't love the idea of using your terminology or the terminology of the per other person or people that you're referring to.
00:37:42.490 -->
00:37:47.050Um, in my view, like I think understanding their terminology is useful.
00:37:47.050 -->
00:37:53.130I don't know that I would use their terminology to talk about how market like what marketing's done, unless it made sense to do it.
00:37:53.130 -->
00:37:58.730Sales is probably the most logical place, but did I am I am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
00:37:58.730 -->
00:38:06.890Like it's not that you don't want to use it, is it more that you don't want to use their terms or um but you still want to understand it, or is it something else?
00:38:07.210 -->
00:38:07.930No, no, no.
00:38:07.930 -->
00:38:10.410I mean, I I I appreciate your question there, actually.
00:38:10.410 -->
00:38:15.450It's not that I don't want to use someone else's terms because sometimes you have to, because that's helps understanding to go.
00:38:15.450 -->
00:38:16.730So sometimes you have to.
00:38:16.730 -->
00:38:20.170But I think you don't want to be too jargon heady, you know, from both sides.
00:38:20.170 -->
00:38:22.970I just don't think I think that can complicate a conversation.
00:38:22.970 -->
00:38:34.330I do think there is merit in just speaking plain English sometimes, you know, like you know, um, you know, like for example, CapEx or uh Bita or the terms like that.
00:38:34.330 -->
00:38:44.090I mean, I think sometimes you just want to generally talk about if you are helping the profit, if you are um you've got engaged customers or you just gotta admit there's attrition.
00:38:44.090 -->
00:38:47.769I just think sometimes simplifying it just makes it real.
00:38:47.769 -->
00:38:51.210And I think in the end, we are people, you know, and we can relate to that.
00:38:51.210 -->
00:38:58.170So it's a relatability element really more than it is um, you know, not wanting to use someone else's uh business terms.
00:38:58.490 -->
00:38:59.130Yeah.
00:38:59.130 -->
00:39:14.570But I so one of the things that I think is important, and we've I probably talked about this ad nauseum too, is like I do think it's important to understand those people, which requires effort in spending time and probably asking a lot of questions, right?
00:39:14.570 -->
00:39:21.769Um I mean, is I know I've learned a lot from doing that, like working with people, and then it helps me when I go to them.
00:39:21.769 -->
00:39:26.170I think part of it is it just looks like you're making an effort to understand, right?
00:39:26.170 -->
00:39:26.570Agree.
00:39:26.570 -->
00:39:30.490Is a big part of building that trust, trusted relationship.
00:39:30.490 -->
00:39:32.010I mean, what's your take on that?
00:39:32.010 -->
00:39:33.130Like, is it how important?
00:39:33.130 -->
00:39:38.570How much time do you spend doing that versus trying to explain what marketing does?
00:39:39.210 -->
00:39:41.769I don't think I do as much explaining as I do listening.
00:39:41.769 -->
00:39:42.970It's just the nature of it.
00:39:42.970 -->
00:39:52.650I think the more I understand what somebody understands, let's put it that way, um, the better um the better I am delivering what I need to deliver, what I need to say.
00:39:52.650 -->
00:39:58.330Because if you understand where they're starting, what their baseline is, what they're interested in, you kind of find the solution.
00:39:58.330 -->
00:40:01.610And I think there's a lot to be said in body language and tone.
00:40:01.610 -->
00:40:03.850Obviously, you're both coming together to solve something.
00:40:03.850 -->
00:40:16.010So I I mean, I enjoy doing this with the finance, for example, because what they're interested in, their perception of marketing is probably a bit low, I suppose, versus what markets itself.
00:40:16.010 -->
00:40:27.050And um, but when they appreciate what you're trying to do, um, and you can see where they're coming from, you find yourself kind of warming to one another and you kind of arrive at this middle ground and you collaborate.
00:40:27.050 -->
00:40:32.490So you do that by understanding them because they are dealing with difficult numbers all the time.
00:40:32.490 -->
00:40:34.090It's the whole point of their job.
00:40:34.090 -->
00:40:42.410Um, and you're coming to the table with uh let's just say with brand customer, lots of feelings and intangible elements for it that way.
00:40:42.410 -->
00:40:51.050We know how to quantify them, but that's that engagement with the CFO, for example, wouldn't be the time to go, well, you know, here's the value marketing brings, you know.
00:40:51.050 -->
00:40:55.130So it understanding them does help the conversation flow better for sure.
00:40:55.130 -->
00:40:56.650I absolutely agree with you.
00:40:56.970 -->
00:41:05.050Yeah, I mean, I think um I I don't think I think one emphasize your point about listening because I think that is an underrated skill.
00:41:05.450 -->
00:41:07.370Yeah, it's not easy.
00:41:07.370 -->
00:41:09.530It's actually not a skill.
00:41:09.530 -->
00:41:13.530It's it's not easy because you want to reply all the time, don't you?
00:41:13.610 -->
00:41:18.250Yeah, I cannot tell you how many times in my career I've been told you interrupt a lot, Michael.
00:41:18.250 -->
00:41:18.490Right?
00:41:18.490 -->
00:41:21.450It's like it's partially because I'm not listening.
00:41:21.450 -->
00:41:26.970And I and I like actually doing this has really helped me develop better listening skills.
00:41:27.290 -->
00:41:28.330Yeah, I imagine.
00:41:28.330 -->
00:41:28.650Yeah.
00:41:28.890 -->
00:41:42.250Well, and it's and it and I should know this be like for a short, like short period of my time, I was in sales and I remember going through some training, and and it's it still sits with me when I hear people talk about salespeople, especially marketers who want to discount what they do.
00:41:42.250 -->
00:41:56.490And and um when I think about the best salespeople I've worked with, whether they're in my organization or they were selling to me, they're really, really good at asking good questions and listening, actively listening.
00:41:56.490 -->
00:42:03.210And when I when I heard that, I was like, God, no, these sales people, all they want to do is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, right?
00:42:03.210 -->
00:42:04.570But it's not what they like.
00:42:04.570 -->
00:42:06.730The best ones don't do that.
00:42:07.130 -->
00:42:10.010I'm so agree with you, yeah.
00:42:10.250 -->
00:42:14.490And I think we can all learn that because it's uh to some degree we're all selling a little bit, right?
00:42:15.130 -->
00:42:16.410Well, yeah, we really are.
00:42:16.410 -->
00:42:21.850I mean, marketing and sales back in the day was all one thing, it just it and it was communication, it was that simple.
00:42:21.850 -->
00:42:26.490And if you've got the gift of the gab, especially if you know what you're talking about, it will flow, it's natural.
00:42:26.490 -->
00:42:33.450I've I've I've done that myself, and then then the customer's kind of going, you know, I'm getting a bit bored here, you're just talking at me.
00:42:33.450 -->
00:42:41.530So, yeah, I think um learning to ask better questions and just to you know deduce what you need to know is is uh obviously the way forward.
00:42:42.090 -->
00:43:01.210Yeah, so something we've talked about in you and I talked about this, I think, before, and I've talked about it on the show, the the other episodes like how important do you think, or how valuable and important do you think it is for people to spend time um with people in other parts of the organization to understand their roles, like so sales, customer support or success, maybe even finance.
00:43:01.210 -->
00:43:02.810What's your take on that?
00:43:03.530 -->
00:43:06.170I think it should be mandatory that people rotate.
00:43:06.170 -->
00:43:09.530I think we would all be so much better at collaborating if we did that.
00:43:09.530 -->
00:43:13.930Once you warp in someone else's shoes, you really do go, oh, okay.
00:43:13.930 -->
00:43:18.250Uh, when I do this or say that, I'm not really paying attention to this and that on their end.
00:43:18.250 -->
00:43:19.370So I do think it helps.
00:43:19.370 -->
00:43:25.210And the reason why I appreciate it is because I've done a bit of BD, a bit of sales, a bit of customer service, you know, in my young years.
00:43:25.210 -->
00:43:27.290Yeah, and it's changed my perspective.
00:43:27.290 -->
00:43:29.050And uh just recently I did it again.
00:43:29.050 -->
00:43:31.210I thought, let me step outside and just kind of see things.
00:43:31.210 -->
00:43:32.490And I was like, oh, okay.
00:43:32.490 -->
00:43:37.130Some of the advice we give doesn't really work, it's not actually gonna work.
00:43:37.130 -->
00:43:39.370So let's let's be more practical.
00:43:39.370 -->
00:43:43.850And I think it strengthens your relationship uh with the people you're trying to help in your organization.
00:43:43.850 -->
00:43:46.090So I I really think it should be mandatory.
00:43:46.090 -->
00:43:49.610Uh, it would uh make things work a lot smoother.
00:43:51.130 -->
00:43:53.769Okay, well, so no, I totally agree.
00:43:53.769 -->
00:44:00.810And I think my short time in sales completely 180 degrees changed my view of the role, right?
00:44:00.810 -->
00:44:13.210And and I think it's in and I've worked at organizations that it was more or less mandatory to at least spend a day twice a year with somebody in the people in another organization.
00:44:13.210 -->
00:44:17.050And I got value out of that, like working with production people.
00:44:17.050 -->
00:44:23.290It was like actually producing whatever we were delivering, as well as customers to support sales.
00:44:23.290 -->
00:44:24.330Finance.
00:44:24.330 -->
00:44:27.290I mean, I think it's it's a it's a really valuable thing.
00:44:27.290 -->
00:44:31.930Um, I was actually disappointed when they kind of removed that as a requirement.
00:44:31.930 -->
00:44:37.690Um, because it felt like a burden when the people would be spending time with us, right?
00:44:37.690 -->
00:44:40.410And I had to like I had to check myself.
00:44:40.410 -->
00:44:42.010We go, yeah.
00:44:42.010 -->
00:44:47.610So um well, okay, so let's maybe dial this back as kind of wrap up here.
00:44:47.610 -->
00:45:04.330So if if you could give a couple of key points to the to our audience who are mostly ops people, um, what are some things that you would recommend that they do to try to help elevate um not only the ops function but marketing in general uh to the rest of their organization?
00:45:06.890 -->
00:45:09.850I definitely think communication is part of it.
00:45:09.850 -->
00:45:18.170I think instead of expecting um anybody you engage with really to understand marketing, don't start there.
00:45:18.170 -->
00:45:19.610It would be what I want to really say.
00:45:19.610 -->
00:45:26.890I would say understand where they are from and then uh lure them in, attract them, and and use metaphors and ways to explain things.
00:45:26.890 -->
00:45:30.890So simplify um your understanding of marketing so that they can meet you there.
00:45:30.890 -->
00:45:32.330I do think that's really important.
00:45:32.330 -->
00:45:38.810I think it is our job to educate non-marketing professionals, but we're not going to do it by literally teaching them marketing per se.
00:45:38.810 -->
00:45:44.330It's more, it's more like find a way for them to appreciate something so they can trust you further.
00:45:44.330 -->
00:45:47.450And to the point on rotation, I do think it's really helpful.
00:45:47.450 -->
00:45:52.650I think if you were to, you know, to step in someone else's shoes, including finance, you know, that was a difficult one, I imagine.
00:45:52.650 -->
00:45:55.130I would probably be terrified in the finance department.
00:45:55.130 -->
00:45:57.769But I think it's worth, yeah.
00:45:57.769 -->
00:45:59.850I mean, I'm not a numbers person like that.
00:45:59.850 -->
00:46:03.530You know, I like my creativity and communication, all those things.
00:46:03.530 -->
00:46:10.410But I think if you were to appreciate where they're coming from, you can appreciate the pushback and you could appreciate what they need from you.
00:46:10.410 -->
00:46:12.730So it's just been able to do that.
00:46:13.690 -->
00:46:30.810I mean, I recommend um like in my coaching with new managers who are maybe managing a budget for the first time or have responsibility for pitching new projects or ideas internally to go spend time with your finance partner or your CFO, depending on the organization.
00:46:30.810 -->
00:46:44.250Because if you get them on your side, makes like essentially they're the ones who are gonna everyone's gonna look to them and go, like, does this make sense financially before we invest, you know, time and effort and money?
00:46:44.250 -->
00:46:46.730And I think it's well worth it.
00:46:46.730 -->
00:46:52.970I encourage all the people I coach who are in there, in fact, all the people who have ever worked for me over the last 10, 15 years, 20 years.
00:46:52.970 -->
00:46:55.210I feel like learn the basics of finance.
00:46:55.210 -->
00:46:57.450Yeah, you will never regret it.
00:46:57.690 -->
00:46:59.290That's exactly it, yeah.
00:47:00.090 -->
00:47:02.410So um, it's maybe less obvious.
00:47:02.410 -->
00:47:05.290And for those people who are not numbers, I'm more numbers oriented.
00:47:05.290 -->
00:47:08.490I was trained as an engineer, so it becomes a little more natural for me.
00:47:08.490 -->
00:47:08.970Yeah.
00:47:08.970 -->
00:47:17.290Um, and so, but even so, right, there's a different way that they think about numbers than we even do in marketing or in engineering.
00:47:17.290 -->
00:47:19.690I mean, it's just a very it's a different mindset.
00:47:19.690 -->
00:47:31.930And to your point, right, if you understand how they think about the numbers, it will help you in how you build your case and represent your numbers when you're trying to, especially if you're trying to get investment.
00:47:32.730 -->
00:47:33.690Absolutely.
00:47:33.690 -->
00:47:42.730And I think, you know, uh Michael, I when I uh when I wrote the title for this book, it was different at the beginning, all the way through.
00:47:42.730 -->
00:47:46.330And right towards the end, I was like, ah, I feel like I need to change it.
00:47:46.330 -->
00:47:50.330And I went back to movement because every all the material was pointing towards that.
00:47:50.330 -->
00:48:01.210And I think what's really dawned on me now is you need to be able to move things forward and to actually be able to report impact and progress and all those things.
00:48:01.210 -->
00:48:06.490And if you're getting stuck, and I think marketing professionals do or teams get stuck, very often it does happen.
00:48:06.490 -->
00:48:08.090It's easy to get stuck in your space.
00:48:08.090 -->
00:48:12.090I think you have to ask yourself an honest question: go, am I moving things forward?
00:48:12.090 -->
00:48:13.050Am I helping?
00:48:13.050 -->
00:48:14.170Am I creating impact?
00:48:14.170 -->
00:48:16.890So I think it's really important to always ask yourself that.
00:48:16.890 -->
00:48:22.730Um, because it probably means you'll be growing, you'll be out of your comfort zone, and you're gonna go, all right, I'm wasting time here.
00:48:22.730 -->
00:48:26.090What could I be really doing that would move the needle or would help somebody?
00:48:26.090 -->
00:48:33.050So I do think it having the mentality that movement inspires progress is probably really helpful uh for a creative team.
00:48:33.530 -->
00:48:48.410Yeah, and I and I think um one of the things I see from a lot of marketers when they get annoyed, like, oh, these people don't understand, is like sometimes the the questions and the push that you the pressure you're feeling from them are actually reasonable kinds of things, right?
00:48:48.410 -->
00:48:50.490Because of their perspective, right?
00:48:50.490 -->
00:48:51.690Are you moving the business forward?
00:48:51.690 -->
00:48:55.850I think that's a great um a great way of thinking about it.
00:48:55.850 -->
00:48:56.170Right.
00:48:56.170 -->
00:48:59.210And and kind of checking like, am I really doing that?
00:48:59.210 -->
00:49:00.330Love it.
00:49:00.330 -->
00:49:02.570Anyway.
00:49:02.570 -->
00:49:05.130This has been a fun conversation.
00:49:05.130 -->
00:49:06.010I've really enjoyed it.
00:49:06.010 -->
00:49:07.850Um, I think it's gonna help a lot of people.
00:49:07.850 -->
00:49:15.130Um, if folks want to learn more about the book or what you're doing or or to continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to do that with you?
00:49:15.930 -->
00:49:20.170Um you can go straight to my website, themarketing dashed movement.com.
00:49:20.170 -->
00:49:21.210All my details.
00:49:21.530 -->
00:49:22.410Marketing Dash Movement.
00:49:22.410 -->
00:49:23.690Fantastic.
00:49:23.690 -->
00:49:24.250Love it.
00:49:24.250 -->
00:49:24.810I appreciate it.
00:49:24.810 -->
00:49:25.930Again, thank you so much.
00:49:25.930 -->
00:49:27.450It's been a lot of fun.
00:49:27.450 -->
00:49:31.690Thanks for those who are listening or watching, and we appreciate your support.
00:49:31.690 -->
00:49:38.730If you have ideas for topics or guests, or you want to be a guest, you can reach out to Naomi, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball rolling.
00:49:38.730 -->
00:49:39.450Till next time.
00:49:39.450 -->
00:49:40.730Bye, everybody.
00:49:41.210 -->
00:49:41.769Bye bye.
