A Conversation with TJ Hoisington

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out, the podcast that takes a pragmatic and balanced look at the Mormon Church and faith.
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My name is Ian Wilkes and I'm here with my partner in faith, the advisable, Mr.
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Jim Bennett.
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Jim, how are you today?
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I am advisable.
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That's a fine adjective to begin with.
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You know what it means?
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I'm easily advised.
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It means
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you're a sucker.
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That's what it means, yeah.
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Actually, it's better than that.
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It means that you're considered to be wise and prudent at indicating a good course of action that is recommended and beneficial.
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All right.
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I'll take it.
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That works for me.
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And I think that fits really well with you.
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Jim, we have on this episode a very, very special guest indeed.
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We have the one and only TJ Oysington.
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TJ, welcome to Inside Out.
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Thank you for having me on your podcast.
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This is awesome.
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Let's have
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some fun, huh?
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Absolutely.
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Did I pronounce your last name correctly?
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Maybe with a British accent.
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Maybe not.
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A little bit of a British, but I'm easy.
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So it's Hoisington.
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Yeah, TJ Hoisington.
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Hoisington.
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I could say it in my Sean Connery Hoisington.
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That's good.
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Welcome, TJ Hoisington.
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Well, TJ, thank you.
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I'm so excited to have you with us.
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So a little bit of an intro to TJ.
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TJ is an authority in the area of personal and professional development, high-performance leadership.
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That's what he does professionally.
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He is the author of several books, including an international bestseller, If You Think You Can, and the other bestseller, The Secret of the Slight Edge.
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TJ is also the host of the Unleash Your Greatness Within podcast, which has reached number one on Apple Podcasts.
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As part of the podcast, TJ interviews top performers and legendary thought leaders on areas of high achievement and leadership.
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TJ has given over a thousand keynote speeches around the world.
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He helps people and organizations unleash the greatness within.
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He lives in Washington with his family, married before children, and he has two grandchildren.
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On an additional note, I met TJ a number of years ago when I was serving on the state presidency, and TJ came highly recommended from somebody that you and I know really well, Jim, Elder Stephen Wrigley.
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Oh, sure.
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So I was tasked with organizing a stake, I think it was a YSA event, TJ, or youth event, if I remember rightly, going back a few years.
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We were looking for amazing speakers, inspirational speakers that could motivate and lift and build up the youth and the YSA.
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So that could really be catching and engaging.
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And so because I wasn't available, we thought we would.
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That was a joke.
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That was a British joke.
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We thought we thought TJ could make second place.
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And I've enjoyed taking second place.
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It's fine.
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Trust me, it's not a second place to anyone.
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It's really not a second place.
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So I reached out to some old companions, friends, and Stephen Wrigley, who TJ's known for a long time, said, hey, we've got this guy in our stake who's amazing.
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And he connects with people on spiritual levels, personal levels.
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And so he said that TJ Hoisington would be interested, I'm sure.
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So TJ and I connected through Stephen Wrigley.
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And Jim, you've known Stephen Wrigley for 35 years.
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He We all served together in the Scotland Edinburgh Mission, TJ.
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So Jim is from...
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I met Jim in the mission in Scotland about 35 years ago, or thereabouts.
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Right.
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And Stephen Wrigley was the missionary at the same time.
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We all know Stephen.
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And that's how I got introduced to you.
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So you and I connected, and you were amazing and very kind and very generous to give up your time.
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And you came up from Seattle, and you stayed here at home.
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Yeah.
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And I...
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I took you to the back of my motorbike.
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I have a picture of that.
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Yes, I already am.
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And I think I was a learner.
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So anyway, you survived.
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And you did a series of workshops and you spoke at the state, I think it was a regional conference, I'm not sure, a state conference with our youth from Westgate.
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And it had a profound impact, Jim, on the, not just the kids, but adults.
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And I attended.
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It was just a message for everybody.
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people felt stronger, better, uplifted, inspired, motivated.
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Like, look, if you think you can, according to T.J.
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Chitlin, his best-selling book, if you think you can, you know, you can.
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If you apply yourself, get a good education, you motivate yourself, you can achieve almost anything.
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And T.J.
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has built up a successful life and career and an extraordinary reputation in the church.
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Being a great leader is like a...
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You know, the general authorities who...
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I'm not talking about a regular general authority.
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I'm not sure if there is such one.
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But a general authority that absolutely blows you away, right?
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Not just, you know, just a typical general authority, but somebody who's really inspirational and just you feel like you could take on the world.
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Well, TJ is that kind of person.
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And he's helped me in those messages.
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He won't know this, but he certainly inspired me.
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So I hope I've not...
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embarrassed too much there, TJ, but you fit that description, and it's just an honor and a privilege to have you with us today.
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And so we wanted to talk to you about, you know, your life, your experience in the church, leadership in the church, you know, what makes, you know, how can we achieve greatness?
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You know, do we have to, do we, how do we deal with challenges and weaknesses and vulnerabilities in life?
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How do we get motivated?
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and your experience teaching and working with countless professionals and individuals in your life.
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Could you give us a little bit of background, a bit of chronology, you growing up in church?
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Give a little bit of context in your background, and then Jim and I will chat, just have a natural conversation.
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We'll see where this goes.
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Does that work for you?
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That sounds great.
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That sounds great.
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First of all, thank you.
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for letting me come on your show.
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This is awesome.
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Thanks for reaching out.
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And wow, what an introduction.
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So this is going to be a fun little podcast, and we'll touch all those bases as we go through it.
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So chronologically, I grew up in the church.
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My dad was a convert to the church because of my mother.
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I think they were high school sweethearts.
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And so I grew up But then the church loved it, served a mission at 19 years old, went to Taiwan for two years.
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I love the people of Taiwan.
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It was a great experience for me.
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Then I came home, and one of my companions said, hey, there's an opening to work for Senator Hatch.
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And at the time, it was Senator Hatch and Senator Bennett.
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Right, right, Jim.
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And I remember...
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Working with Hatch, meeting Jim.
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I think it's your dad, is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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No, totally.
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And so I worked there in the Dirksen.
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I think it was the Hart Building.
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I think it was the Hart Building or the Dirksen Building, whatever.
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And I worked in Washington, D.C.
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for about nine months.
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And then some folks approached me to start a little home security system business, which I decided to jump on as an opportunity.
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And in Utah...
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We started the first home security systems where you could just pay the monthly fee and get all the equipment for free.
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And that was a good 30 years ago.
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And that took off and became really successful.
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And then that led me to eventually work for Tony Robbins.
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But before we get further into that, let's stay a little bit on maybe some of my childhood, if you wouldn't mind.
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Um, and I don't normally share this, so this will be new to, probably everything about me is new to some of your listeners, but in 1986, my dad was in the Army, and in 1986, I was 12 years old, and Ronald Reagan and Nancy Reagan were in the White House at the time, and they had something that was called the Greatest American Family.
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Now, your audience can't see it, but I'll show you guys.
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So when I was 12 years old, We were flown, our family was flown to the White House.
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And here you can see Nancy Reagan with my family.
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There are eight kids in my family.
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There were seven boys and one girl.
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And standing there on stage with Nancy Reagan as she awarded us the Greatest American Family Award.
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Here's a picture, sorry for you that are listening to this, you're not seeing it.
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But here's a picture of Nancy Reagan shaking my hand as a 12-year-old.
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And I kind of grew up in a world, if I'm being very authentic and real with you, where I thought I grew up in the best family in the world.
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I thought it was perfect.
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And without going into detail, so I'll be very respectful here, but when I was 30 years old, my parents had been married about 36 years, and my dad left mom.
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And that kind of broke my reality for just a little bit.
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And it took me a while, probably a good six months to a year, to recoil from the disappointment and the hurt and the pain.
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Now, fortunately, this happens to a lot of people, so I'm not alone in this space.
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But fortunately, I was married and had two young kids at the time.
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And so I had somewhere to pour my focus into.
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And so...
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I think in life, it used to be when I was growing up, I used to get frustrated with adults who would say, in sort of a quip way, they would say, life isn't fair.
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I would tell people about my dreams, right?
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I'm one day going to be a motivational speaker.
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I'm one day going to do consulting inside corporations, or I'm going to be an author, right?
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These were all original visions of mine.
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And when I would tell my priesthood leaders or my young men's leaders at the time, I was a teenager, my goal, some of them would say, well, TJ, once you begin paying a mortgage and once you have responsibilities, it's not always going to work out that way.
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So get your expectation right and so forth.
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And I would always think, and then they would say, hey, TJ, life isn't always fair.
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So get used to it.
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And I kind of always pushed that away.
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I was always like, no, I don't like it when people use that phrase, right?
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Why would we, if If what we think comes more into our world, right, law of reciprocity, why would I say that?
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And it wasn't until my dad surprised the family with leaving that for the first time in my life, even though I had had some failures starting my business early on in the early days, that was the first time I realized life is not always fair.
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It was really painful.
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Now it's been several years now.
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It's been like 15 or 18 years now.
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And I tell you what, I've been a lot stronger because of it.
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So when my dad left, was the first time in my life I realized that life really isn't fair.
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And I've grown a lot since that time, and that's been several years now.
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But I think I now have a little bit more empathy and understanding for people that are facing a myriad of trials and difficulties in their lives.
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And so in hindsight, in some ways, I'm grateful for the experience.
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And that's a little bit of my backstory, if you will.
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Well, so tell us a little bit about your journey in the church.
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I mean, you served a mission in Taiwan.
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And now you're a motivational speaker and you're an author and you achieved all of the success.
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Where does the church fit into that whole picture?
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Let's see.
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I don't know.
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What's the most simple way to say that?
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I'm an active member of the church.
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I serve faithfully, strive to.
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I've had several callings.
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I tend to work a lot with the youth.
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And so grateful for that time that I hopefully get to inspire the youth.
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I don't know if you want me to get into callings or whatever, but...
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No, well, I'm just trying to put it all into perspective because Ian and I, we discuss very often our history and our mission and And, you know, Ian has since left the church.
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I am still very much in the church.
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I'm in the Tabernacle Choir, which has really been one of the great joys of my life.
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But one of the things that I've sort of found as in our generation, we're seeing quite a lot of people, and I think you're a little bit younger looking at those pictures of you, I think you're about five years younger than I am.
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I'm 50 this year.
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Yep, I'm 55.
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See that?
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Okay, perfect.
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You got it.
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Mentally, I had it all together.
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But one of the things that I'm finding is the church, to some degree, is not the kind of community it was when I was growing up.
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I don't know if you've had that experience, but when I was growing up, and Ian, of course, is a convert, was a convert at the age of 16.
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But when I was growing up, the church was the whole world.
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The church was our entire social network.
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It was just every major event in life.
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There was a big church Christmas party.
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There was a big church.
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Whatever it was, the church was just sort of the center of the universe.
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And a lot of that has changed over time.
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I was a really lousy Boy Scout, so I was not upset to see the Boy Scouts go by the wayside, but I was kind of upset to see the Boy Scouts go by the wayside and then have it replaced with essentially nothing.
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There really isn't sort of a new program that replaces it.
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And that same kind of sense of community is sort of lost.
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And I think a lot of people in our generation, they start to question that and say, well, if the community isn't as strong as it was, is the church really, where does the church fit?
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And how much of this do I actually believe?
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And that leads to a lot of faith crisis in terms of people reevaluating their beliefs, reevaluating their commitment, And so I don't have necessarily a specific question other than to say, has that been similar to your experience?
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Are you encountering people that are experiencing faith crisis or just sort of walking away that the church doesn't feed them anymore the way it used to?
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And I'm wondering how you deal with that, how you encounter that being sort of a public figure and dealing with people who are wrestling with all kinds of different things in their life, how does that kind of wrestle apply to the church?
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Well, first of all, I do have friends that have left the church, and so I'm aware of that.
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I'm often saddened.
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Based on what you said, yeah, I can remember when I was young, the church was sort of a community.
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My Focus was around the church, was in the church, the social functions, Boy Scouts at the time.
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And I thought it was good.
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But early on in my business career, I had to branch out of that in terms of business.
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And just like I'm sure you guys have, just having to provide and so forth, you learn to accept everybody from different faiths.
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And there's not judgment, right?
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It is what it is.
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There's different series of beliefs out there, and you learn to live with it and try not to be too judgmental.
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So But
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that hasn't been an issue for you personally.
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You haven't sort of experienced...
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Well, the only thing I would say is close to that, no, I've not experienced it.
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But close to it is when my dad left was almost, not exactly, but almost the same time the book Rough Stone Rolling came out.
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I don't know why I dove into that book at that time, but it got me to question all kinds of things.
00:18:06.425 --> 00:18:06.726
Yeah.
00:18:07.567 --> 00:18:10.853
And I should probably give you some background.
00:18:10.913 --> 00:18:23.953
I don't know if genetics plays a role or anything, but my pioneer heritage is I'm a Smith, and Joseph Smith is my cousin eight generations back.
00:18:24.609 --> 00:18:27.653
John Lyman Smith is my grandpa, great-grandpa.
00:18:28.674 --> 00:18:43.651
And so in our family, there's a strong sense of the Smith blood, if you will, just in terms of all that happened in those early days of the church and so forth.
00:18:43.691 --> 00:18:53.021
But I think I went through a time where I questioned things, but as I educated myself and I prayed about things and I studied it out in my mind and then remembered...
00:18:53.442 --> 00:18:58.228
and continue to have spiritual experiences that sort of confirm certain things.
00:18:58.347 --> 00:19:07.338
And I saw blessings come in my life and situations come in my life that couldn't be explained logically.
00:19:07.358 --> 00:19:22.097
I tell people today that the book, Rough Stone Rolling, actually strengthened my testimony because what I saw was Joseph Smith was a man who was very natural man, who made a lot of mistakes.
00:19:23.842 --> 00:19:59.030
But I walk away from that being an author thinking to myself, and I know this is a logical thing, it's not a spiritual discussion at this point, but I've written several books, and to think that Joseph Smith with a third-grade education could come up with so much doctrine, whether it's the Doctrine and Covenants, the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and so forth, no matter who pokes holes in it, which is fine, go for it, But it still has stood the test of time, and I just struggle to wrap my head around the idea that it was all made up.
00:20:01.958 --> 00:20:16.113
If anyone really goes in and studies the revelations and the breakthrough ideas that were not prominent at the time, I think if their hearts are sincere, they will also feel the spirit of those truths as well.
00:20:16.493 --> 00:20:20.077
And I would say that many of those truths are shared with other religions as well.
00:20:20.137 --> 00:20:22.121
We're not alone in many of those truths.
00:20:22.541 --> 00:20:23.823
Sure.
00:20:24.443 --> 00:20:25.525
No, rough stone rolling.
00:20:26.346 --> 00:20:32.453
My family, my parents gave all of the kids copies of rough stone rolling for Christmas.
00:20:33.035 --> 00:20:33.675
Oh, you're kidding.
00:20:34.156 --> 00:20:34.396
No.
00:20:34.656 --> 00:20:34.998
Great.
00:20:35.521 --> 00:20:36.663
I love that book.
00:20:36.803 --> 00:20:37.784
I love Richard Bushman.
00:20:37.804 --> 00:20:40.006
We're trying to get Richard Bushman on this podcast.
00:20:40.205 --> 00:20:41.027
Oh, he would be great.
00:20:41.288 --> 00:20:41.607
Oh, yeah.
00:20:41.627 --> 00:20:44.550
I've sent out feelers to see what we can do.
00:20:44.570 --> 00:20:48.074
So Richard Bushman, if you're listening, we would love to have you here.
00:20:49.035 --> 00:21:04.549
But my reaction to Rust on Rolling was very much like yours in that one of the things that strengthens my faith, actually, is the recognition of the fallibility and the weakness.
00:21:05.442 --> 00:21:08.465
That's what I believe, right.
00:21:09.046 --> 00:21:26.046
We're taught so much that these men are demigods that it can be jarring when you read something like Rough Stone Rolling that points out that there are very real flaws, that these are very human beings.
00:21:27.027 --> 00:21:29.190
But I think it's such a much better story.
00:21:30.082 --> 00:21:44.442
that this is a church that has survived and thrived despite the weaknesses of its leaders, not because the leaders are somehow magically gifted in ways that the rest of us can't understand.
00:21:44.481 --> 00:21:46.724
Ian, have you read Rough Stone Rolling?
00:21:47.506 --> 00:21:48.426
Yes, a while back.
00:21:48.788 --> 00:21:53.534
It's a great, amazing book, and I would love to get Richard onto that book next year.
00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:55.992
It opens your eyes to a lot of things, for sure.
00:21:56.354 --> 00:21:56.473
Yep.
00:21:57.234 --> 00:22:02.222
I love the fact that he's very, you know, I think he led the Joseph's Papers project.
00:22:02.323 --> 00:22:06.068
He's a deeply respected individual, I think, at all levels within the church.
00:22:06.148 --> 00:22:11.016
And he takes a very, like this podcast, you know, Inside Out, takes a very balanced look, I think, at the church.
00:22:11.056 --> 00:22:14.961
He doesn't kind of whitewash some of the difficult issues, right?
00:22:15.041 --> 00:22:22.653
And the church, I think it's a strength, these complexities, these challenges that they had in restoring the church, right?
00:22:23.105 --> 00:22:24.386
Of course they had challenges.
00:22:24.487 --> 00:22:25.729
Of course they made mistakes.
00:22:25.788 --> 00:22:26.689
Why wouldn't they, right?
00:22:27.770 --> 00:22:30.272
You know, some mistakes were, I think, avoidable.
00:22:30.853 --> 00:22:34.656
You know, I think with a little bit of insight could have been avoided.
00:22:36.199 --> 00:22:38.601
But, you know, they were restoring a new church.
00:22:38.621 --> 00:22:43.965
But I think Richard Busler's got a pretty good balance perspective on, you know, kind of both sides of God.
00:22:44.046 --> 00:23:02.327
And Joseph, you know, whether you believe him or not, and I'm reading this book by Alex Beam called American Crucifixion, who's a a New York bestseller, you probably have heard of the name, and he's done a very fantastic book on Joe Smith from a non-member perspective, looking at all the facts.
00:23:02.989 --> 00:23:07.292
And even he says Joe Smith was quite an inspirational figure to achieve all that he has.
00:23:07.692 --> 00:23:20.445
He talks about, there's been a lot of evangelical leaders that emerged prior to Joseph and after Joseph, but Joseph was, quote, the most successful leader of his kind at the time, end quote.
00:23:20.546 --> 00:23:23.670
So, and I love your statement of faith, TG.
00:23:23.710 --> 00:23:28.095
I think it's extraordinary because, you know, you got the book, you read, you had questions.
00:23:28.174 --> 00:23:32.980
They'll deal with youth and YSA individuals all the time.
00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:39.327
They've all got questions, issues, challenges, successes, failures, trying to find themselves.
00:23:39.468 --> 00:23:57.037
You know, we look back at the time when we were young, you know, when I was teenage, joining the church at 16, sitting at YSA, there was a, a time of anxiousness on my part, a little bit of intense, you know, what's going to be coming, what's going to happen, and, you know, what am I going to do for the rest of my life?
00:23:57.136 --> 00:24:01.801
And there was, as I say, a period of anxiousness, and the mission actually sorted me out.
00:24:01.942 --> 00:24:05.226
It was a stabilizer, a very stabilizing experience.
00:24:05.767 --> 00:24:13.135
But nevertheless, there were lots of people my age who had questions about life and divinity of the church and challenges and questions.
00:24:13.896 --> 00:24:18.982
And I wish I had more people at that time to be able to have spoken to.
00:24:19.042 --> 00:24:21.505
I kept a lot within myself.
00:24:21.965 --> 00:24:32.136
And many of our listeners, TJ, because we have Insider, I don't go anymore, but I still have faith in the church and Jesus Christ.
00:24:32.357 --> 00:24:35.461
I still find the Book of Mormon incredibly inspirational.
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:36.362
It was inspirational.
00:24:36.382 --> 00:24:37.563
We talked about that on the podcast.
00:24:38.023 --> 00:24:43.349
There are passages in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, which I find just extraordinary inspiration.
00:24:43.842 --> 00:24:48.666
And our listeners, which are quite broad, you know, some are in, some are out, so we're kind of navigating the faith.
00:24:49.366 --> 00:24:53.550
You know, they have questions and they want to be able to ask the questions.
00:24:54.051 --> 00:24:58.195
They want to be able to go to church and be able to ask, you know, openly, freely, without being judged.
00:24:58.256 --> 00:25:00.238
You talked about not judging people, which is great.
00:25:00.898 --> 00:25:04.821
Feel a safe place where they can express their opinion.
00:25:04.883 --> 00:25:05.843
Have an opinion.
00:25:06.183 --> 00:25:06.944
Have a question, right?
00:25:07.464 --> 00:25:07.625
Yeah.
00:25:07.664 --> 00:25:15.878
So when amazing people like you come on and you talk about, you know, your experiences and And we have different people at different levels of faith, et cetera.
00:25:16.299 --> 00:25:23.972
Our listeners get a lot from that because they feel they're getting something from that conversation that can help them at that point in life.
00:25:24.594 --> 00:25:33.970
So I think your journey, your experience is extremely relevant to all of our listeners, so many of our listeners on the Inside Out podcast.
00:25:34.657 --> 00:25:39.505
Well, I would just remind all the listeners, right, because you probably have some people that have questions.
00:25:39.545 --> 00:25:40.526
You have people that are active.
00:25:40.566 --> 00:25:42.689
You have people that were once active that aren't active.
00:25:42.868 --> 00:26:00.273
Whatever the balance is, right, it seems with the friends that are not members of my church or the people that I meet is the question they often, I think, think out of maybe a sense of tradition or something is that we don't believe in Jesus Christ.
00:26:01.634 --> 00:26:05.157
Listen, he is the Redeemer and the Savior of the world.
00:26:05.498 --> 00:26:08.500
And in the church, we believe that to be true.
00:26:08.540 --> 00:26:14.948
And I'm glad to see that the church is making that more of the focus, not that the doctrine has changed.
00:26:15.028 --> 00:26:16.390
That's always been at the...
00:26:16.569 --> 00:26:19.532
I mean, Joseph Smith would put Jesus Christ first, right?
00:26:20.193 --> 00:26:25.159
But the world doesn't, because of so many traditions and beliefs and stuff, they don't often see that.
00:26:25.199 --> 00:26:35.858
But anyone that reads the Book of Mormon would see that The name Jesus Christ is, I don't know, you guys could probably tell me more specifically, but it mentions Jesus Christ over 2,000 times in the book.
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:41.188
And so I say believe, don't be faithless.
00:26:41.567 --> 00:26:42.809
Jesus Christ said believe.
00:26:42.871 --> 00:26:48.941
And if we live the way Jesus Christ taught people to live, I think the world would be a happier place to live.
00:26:49.481 --> 00:26:53.268
We live in a fallen world where I think...
00:26:54.945 --> 00:27:04.737
Having God in our lives, deity in our lives, could be a positive thing that could actually strengthen society rather than weaken it.
00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:20.094
But we've spent many years trying to push God out of every institution, and I think the morals are based on a higher power.
00:27:20.134 --> 00:27:21.776
It's not our own morals, right?
00:27:22.017 --> 00:27:23.178
It's based on a higher power.
00:27:24.289 --> 00:27:30.118
I love, as I listen to you, TJ, I love that scripture, the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25, 26.
00:27:30.239 --> 00:27:35.886
And again, the Book of Mormon is replete with references to Jesus Christ and his life.
00:27:35.987 --> 00:27:41.394
And I find, even now, extraordinary strength and inspiration.
00:27:41.555 --> 00:27:43.637
Jim, you won't know this, but I started reading the Book of Mormon again.
00:27:44.378 --> 00:27:44.740
Wow.
00:27:45.201 --> 00:27:46.501
Good.
00:27:46.782 --> 00:27:47.663
I love this scripture.
00:27:47.723 --> 00:28:03.925
It says in that chapter in verse 25, 26, 2 Nephi, And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies that our children may know to what source they may look for remission of their sins.
00:28:04.046 --> 00:28:05.548
I love that scripture.
00:28:06.549 --> 00:28:12.897
TJ, you talk about, you touch upon something which I find intriguing about, you know, this anchor of faith.
00:28:13.078 --> 00:28:15.141
The Book of Mormon talks about the anchor of faith.
00:28:15.261 --> 00:28:17.284
That's one of my favorite scriptures of my own, I think.
00:28:17.845 --> 00:28:19.627
But I used to be able to remember the scriptures by then.
00:28:20.067 --> 00:28:25.674
I knew where all the scriptures were, almost exactly in the Book of Mormon when I was on my mission.
00:28:26.537 --> 00:28:32.045
I'm not trying to show off nothing, but some of those times, those memories come back to me where I can remember those scriptures.
00:28:32.085 --> 00:28:33.026
We talked about Anchor Vic.
00:28:33.446 --> 00:28:44.844
You talk about if we believe more in Christ and we anchor ourselves to Christ, that a lot of the problems of the world, and I agree with you in many ways, a lot of the problems we could probably deal with.
00:28:46.266 --> 00:29:24.229
With your experience and your personal, spiritual, church service experience leadership professional leadership even with professionals what's your and again in the context of the gospel of jesus christ and if you want to touch upon the timeline of uh of the gospel in terms of where we are with the gospel and christ in the timeline what's your perspective on what's happening in the world because the last episode jim and i talked about we got into a bit of a an interesting political slash religious conversation about the significant events that are happening in the world today.
00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:26.050
Very serious things going on.
00:29:26.491 --> 00:29:29.315
Only today, another event happened in Russia.
00:29:29.355 --> 00:29:35.481
Sorry, in Ukraine, where Russia hit a hospital in Kyiv.
00:29:36.522 --> 00:29:40.768
And sadly, a lot of children and individuals lost their lives.
00:29:41.229 --> 00:29:44.893
This is the day before the NATO event tomorrow.
00:29:45.857 --> 00:29:47.420
NATO meeting happening tomorrow.
00:29:47.721 --> 00:29:50.684
We have the new UK prime minister attending, Keir Starmer attending.
00:29:51.046 --> 00:29:51.946
It's a major event.
00:29:52.228 --> 00:29:57.635
Russia sent all this, fired all these missiles over to Kiev last night.
00:29:58.076 --> 00:30:00.319
We're seeing significant upheaval in the Middle East.
00:30:00.400 --> 00:30:02.303
Jim and I talked about that on the last podcast.
00:30:02.784 --> 00:30:03.744
Israel, Palestine.
00:30:03.785 --> 00:30:09.914
We're seeing very interesting developments happening in American politics, which I'm sure you're probably tracking.
00:30:11.096 --> 00:30:22.840
What's your take on, from your perspective as a member of the church, committed to the gospel as you are, what's your take on your perspective on the events that are happening around the world at this time?
00:30:23.382 --> 00:30:24.103
If you could speak to that.
00:30:25.525 --> 00:30:31.173
Well, I think just very simply, power can corrupt.
00:30:32.855 --> 00:30:36.119
And I'm with you.
00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:41.647
I like the macro understanding of where the world is going, so I pay attention to the news and so forth.
00:30:41.807 --> 00:30:48.595
And I wish in a perfect place that we could stop all the wars.
00:30:52.501 --> 00:30:54.664
But I do think in this world, there's good and there's evil.
00:30:55.807 --> 00:31:08.707
And I think a lot of the problems I see, I don't know them personally and decisions they make, but I do often wonder, are they inquiring of the Lord above?
00:31:08.886 --> 00:31:21.344
I mean, I think of the founding fathers of the United States of America and I think all of them either were bankrupt or were killed or were estranged or whatever by the end of their lives.
00:31:21.523 --> 00:31:27.912
I mean, they literally gave up their lives for putting together the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and so forth.
00:31:28.092 --> 00:31:31.217
And so there's always going to be this war.
00:31:31.396 --> 00:31:34.480
And the war started before this world was even created.
00:31:34.500 --> 00:31:50.501
So I just think on an individual level, whether you're a member of the church or or you're not a member of the church, it's our job to be respectful of people with differing views.
00:31:50.762 --> 00:31:59.412
I agree with what you said earlier, Ian, that we should be able to ask questions and we should be as transparent as possible.
00:31:59.511 --> 00:32:08.560
I remember several years ago, I was asked to speak at Hanscom Air Force Base up in the Boston area, Massachusetts.
00:32:09.141 --> 00:32:12.393
And My brother had served his mission in Boston.
00:32:12.413 --> 00:32:18.342
So I said, hey, Steve, do you want to travel with me and go up there and you can show me your mission and stuff like that?
00:32:18.422 --> 00:32:19.703
And he says, absolutely.
00:32:19.784 --> 00:32:26.534
And he ended up taking me one day to one of the church buildings right across the river, across from Harvard.
00:32:26.554 --> 00:32:28.938
And he said, this is where I would go to church.
00:32:29.298 --> 00:32:31.481
And we were walking through it.
00:32:31.521 --> 00:32:37.737
And I remember it's an old chapel where you have a You know, there's a balcony that goes around and so forth.
00:32:37.757 --> 00:32:39.378
It was kind of old and so forth.
00:32:39.398 --> 00:32:39.980
It was kind of cool.
00:32:40.140 --> 00:32:44.085
We wandered down to the basement or just to the downstairs where all the offices were.
00:32:44.125 --> 00:32:49.531
And we ran into two older gentlemen, seemed like they were probably in their 60s or 70s.
00:32:50.071 --> 00:32:52.955
And we asked who they were and they said they were professors at Harvard.
00:32:53.696 --> 00:32:55.960
That triggered a thought.
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.701
They said they also teach Institute.
00:32:57.986 --> 00:33:00.910
So that triggered a series of thoughts with me at that moment.
00:33:00.930 --> 00:33:08.000
I said, hey, I'm curious, what do you see with the students that are coming in today related to the gospel?
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:13.247
And maybe if you've been teaching for over 30 years, what was it like 30 years ago?
00:33:13.267 --> 00:33:27.145
And I remember one of those gentlemen, one of those professors said, you know, he says it used to be a lot of the information, the church history, whatever else, was wrapped in a bubble gum wrapper.
00:33:27.458 --> 00:33:37.079
He says, now with the students that are coming into Harvard today, they have all the information at their fingertips because of the internet.
00:33:37.681 --> 00:34:00.529
So my thought is, whether it's the church or any organizations, because I do leadership consulting and strategizing and so forth, Organizations that thrive, whether it be in a for-profit world, a nonprofit world, a religious world, are those that are transparent and be as transparent and as honest as possible and make changes where changes need to be made, for sure.
00:34:00.549 --> 00:34:09.360
And the friends that have left the church, it's because they've learned this or they've learned this or they've learned this that they didn't know about several years ago.
00:34:09.762 --> 00:34:16.409
In many of those cases, I knew that stuff in seminary when I was a senior in high school, so it didn't shake me.
00:34:16.610 --> 00:34:27.661
So I'm just a big believer that if we're more transparent, starting with our youth at a younger age, teaching them the core of the doctrine, the real history and so forth, they'll be better off in the future because of it.
00:34:27.681 --> 00:34:28.963
They'll be strengthened because of it.
00:34:29.143 --> 00:34:31.646
I think parents need to be more transparent.
00:34:31.706 --> 00:34:33.206
Parents need to be more open.
00:34:33.226 --> 00:34:39.894
And I think a faithful seeking person will be forgiven, especially if we're leading people to pray.
00:34:40.235 --> 00:34:45.476
If we're leading people to to Talk to God directly.
00:34:45.577 --> 00:34:50.744
Joseph Smith is the one that really pointed our focus to, you don't need to go to your pastor.
00:34:50.784 --> 00:34:53.447
You don't need to go to your preacher.
00:34:53.949 --> 00:34:57.514
He would say in Doctrine and Covenants, you can speak directly with God.
00:34:58.596 --> 00:35:05.565
And so I think if someone is honestly seeking that refuge and seeking that peace, I do believe they can find it.
00:35:05.706 --> 00:35:11.153
And I think the world would benefit just turning their hearts to a higher power.
00:35:11.425 --> 00:35:15.210
not making themselves the higher power.
00:35:15.271 --> 00:35:17.273
In fact, I have right here.
00:35:17.853 --> 00:35:19.195
I'll just show you because I think you...
00:35:19.416 --> 00:35:20.898
Do I have it?
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:23.061
No, I don't have it.
00:35:23.221 --> 00:35:23.802
Oh, yes, I do.
00:35:23.842 --> 00:35:27.626
Okay, your audience is not going to see this, but I'm showing up a magazine.
00:35:27.666 --> 00:35:33.235
It's a Time magazine called The Me, Me, Me Generation.
00:35:33.655 --> 00:35:35.077
I think it was from 2013.
00:35:36.818 --> 00:35:38.601
Well...
00:35:39.106 --> 00:35:45.233
30 years earlier, Time Magazine had a cover that was called The Me Generation, right?
00:35:45.315 --> 00:35:49.179
And so this was the 30-year, and I have it right here, that you guys can see, right?
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:49.940
You can vouch for me.
00:35:50.561 --> 00:35:51.903
The actual magazine's for it.
00:35:52.384 --> 00:35:53.706
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:53.846 --> 00:35:55.548
And here's what they say in it.
00:35:55.568 --> 00:36:07.945
And I thought, I've shared this before to some of my audiences, just that with social media and everything else, it says in this, and this is 2013, it says in there that the average...
00:36:08.514 --> 00:36:17.222
User of a phone today has 87 pictures of themselves, selfies on their phone.
00:36:17.583 --> 00:36:31.436
And they make the point in the article that if it was 30 years earlier, before we had smartphones and everything else, it would be like having 87 posters of yourself in your bedroom, right?
00:36:31.476 --> 00:36:37.521
We used to have Michael Jackson posters and MacGyver posters and whatever back in the old days, right?
00:36:38.114 --> 00:36:40.016
But I think that's a valid point.
00:36:40.117 --> 00:36:52.313
We've turned so far in that we've become self-imposed species where we're isolating ourselves from the community, from the people, even if they're with different faiths.
00:36:52.434 --> 00:37:01.326
We can all get along if we will just, if we will love God and a higher power and goodness better than getting even.
00:37:01.565 --> 00:37:02.527
Anyway, I said a lot there.
00:37:02.568 --> 00:37:03.208
I'm sorry, guys.
00:37:04.110 --> 00:37:05.911
No, we would like you to say as much as...
00:37:07.585 --> 00:37:08.688
This is why you're here.
00:37:08.728 --> 00:37:09.969
We want you to say more.
00:37:12.813 --> 00:37:18.360
This may be a loaded question, though, because you're talking about, okay, transparency.
00:37:18.501 --> 00:37:20.784
It's essential that we have transparency.
00:37:21.585 --> 00:37:31.820
And my question is, do you feel that the church currently is sufficiently transparent, particularly about difficult issues in history and doctrine?
00:37:35.184 --> 00:37:36.346
I feel like I'm not a good...
00:37:36.706 --> 00:37:44.135
judge of that because I wasn't probably as aware of I am now if I go back 20 years, right?
00:37:44.215 --> 00:37:45.295
I'm in a different place today.
00:37:45.697 --> 00:37:47.358
I think they're making huge strides.
00:37:47.378 --> 00:37:57.530
When you think of the Joseph Smith papers, I know some people could listen to me say that and say, yeah, but TJ, you know that some things are left out of even those and so forth.
00:37:58.172 --> 00:37:59.193
And I hear that.
00:37:59.914 --> 00:38:05.463
I would just say to those people that are thinking that it maybe is subjective in terms of the content.
00:38:05.764 --> 00:38:11.170
Let me tell you, every autobiography of any well-known person that you'll ever read is subjective.
00:38:11.230 --> 00:38:13.851
There is data that is left out that you're not going to see.
00:38:14.092 --> 00:38:16.014
So do I think the church is making progress?
00:38:16.313 --> 00:38:17.215
I do think that.
00:38:17.655 --> 00:38:29.286
So I was reading Rough Stone Rolling, and you probably have some listeners, this won't be news to them, but just that Joseph Smith had sealed to him many wives.
00:38:30.788 --> 00:38:37.465
I remember some people were in my home and they said, did you hear about Joseph?
00:38:37.485 --> 00:38:38.606
They had just learned about it.
00:38:38.666 --> 00:38:40.628
Joseph had these wives and so forth.
00:38:41.929 --> 00:38:43.931
And the thought that went through my head, Jim, was that.
00:38:43.952 --> 00:38:48.876
It was like, has the church ever shared anything about Joseph Smith having more than one wife?
00:38:49.617 --> 00:38:53.021
Because I knew that when I was a young adult, right?
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.844
So it wasn't news to me, but these folks that were bringing it up, that was the first time they were hearing it.
00:38:57.324 --> 00:39:00.487
So in my home, I opened up my computer.
00:39:00.507 --> 00:39:15.625
I went to, at the time, lds.org, or the church website, and I typed in something like Joseph Smith Wives, and it told in, at that time, it was listed on the website.
00:39:15.684 --> 00:39:19.411
So do I think the church is trying to be?
00:39:19.610 --> 00:39:22.074
I do think so, but you've got to be willing to search for it.
00:39:22.094 --> 00:39:23.516
It's not all going to be handed to you.
00:39:25.440 --> 00:39:45.166
Well, that's been my experience too, and I grew up in an unusual circumstance in that I grew up in a family where all of these things were discussed openly in ways that I don't think they were discussed openly with other sorts of families.
00:39:45.567 --> 00:39:45.806
Totally.
00:39:45.827 --> 00:39:54.139
And I always tell the story of my own sort of faith crisis when I read The Godmakers when I was a freshman at the University of Southern California.
00:39:54.179 --> 00:40:03.873
And I took all of the quests, and one of the reasons why that didn't drive me out of the church was that I had a father and I also had an uncle.
00:40:04.385 --> 00:40:07.489
that I was living with at the time, who was the LA stake president.
00:40:07.528 --> 00:40:08.590
His name was Howard Anderson.
00:40:09.710 --> 00:40:12.554
And I brought these to him and they were aware of the problems.
00:40:12.594 --> 00:40:17.599
They were willing to discuss them with me and they didn't freak out that I was asking the question.
00:40:18.438 --> 00:40:33.534
But what I am discovering as in my own weird little ministry, if you will, is that people, it's not just that they feel like the church hasn't been transparent or that they have...
00:40:33.762 --> 00:40:40.670
They don't, their shelf doesn't break, to use the metaphor, the cliched metaphor of the shelf breaking.
00:40:41.291 --> 00:40:46.338
Their shelf doesn't break because necessarily they encounter some doctrine or history they don't like.
00:40:47.358 --> 00:40:52.206
Their shelf breaks because the faith crisis becomes a trust crisis.
00:40:53.146 --> 00:41:10.164
They feel like the church hasn't been transparent, the church has been dishonest with them, so they no longer trust the institutional church, even if the institutional church reaches out and tries to provide some of these answers, the damage is sort of already done.
00:41:10.264 --> 00:41:12.467
And they say, no, no, I'm not going to pay any attention to that.
00:41:12.628 --> 00:41:18.516
I think you are 100% right that the church has made great, great strides.
00:41:18.617 --> 00:41:21.621
I mean, I think the Gospel Topics essays were a good first step.
00:41:22.121 --> 00:41:31.074
But I know, Ian, you had an experience with the Gospel Topics essays that actually sort of drove you out, that was a negative experience for you.
00:41:31.746 --> 00:41:32.447
Yes, yes.
00:41:32.547 --> 00:41:37.894
If you remember, TJ, in 2013, I was still, I'm not sure when you came up from Seattle, am I?
00:41:37.914 --> 00:41:38.856
No, no, no.
00:41:38.896 --> 00:41:39.197
Yeah.
00:41:39.717 --> 00:41:45.166
Yeah, maybe just before that, but the essays came out, which are really weird.
00:41:45.907 --> 00:41:58.507
And the first one, I think, I think there was a precursor talk to that essay, I think at least, from Elder Uchtdorf, who spoke at the 2013 General Conference.
00:41:59.307 --> 00:42:00.670
Even extraordinary talk, actually.
00:42:01.313 --> 00:42:02.735
a classic in my view.
00:42:03.315 --> 00:42:17.532
I was very active at the time on the state presidency and heard the talk, and he talked about past leaders had made mistakes, that past leaders could and should have known better.
00:42:17.632 --> 00:42:23.260
I'm kind of trying to paraphrase or quote him as close as I can.
00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:24.161
I'm not doing a very good job.
00:42:24.181 --> 00:42:31.240
But if you go on to his talk in October 2013, he did talk about these challenges that some of these leaders were experiencing.
00:42:31.260 --> 00:42:40.574
And I thought, listening to that, he was referring to a rogue state president or rogue bishops, people in the rank and file of the church who, yeah, they make mistakes.
00:42:40.974 --> 00:42:48.786
I didn't for one second think he was talking about major issues or concerns or decisions that past prophets or apostles had made.
00:42:49.547 --> 00:42:57.248
And perhaps I was naive to think that perhaps they didn't make as many of the or many serious mistakes, as they did.
00:42:57.268 --> 00:43:01.614
I think they made some serious mistakes, frankly, and they made lots of good choices, of course.
00:43:02.275 --> 00:43:06.021
But the month after, I think it was in November, the first essay came out.
00:43:06.081 --> 00:43:07.282
I think it was November 2008.
00:43:07.762 --> 00:43:08.985
It was on the race of the priesthood.
00:43:09.945 --> 00:43:21.943
And being on a mission and teaching this as a bishop and teaching, you know, in the temple, I served in the temple, a bit of veil work, as you know, and served as a bishop, a Spanish president, served on a mission.
00:43:23.405 --> 00:43:24.126
You know, we...
00:43:24.385 --> 00:43:45.978
taught that, you know, in the past we taught that blacks would not, or at least this is what I was taught, and what I taught as well, that blacks were not equal, if all the world was, that they were not as valiant as white folks, and that they came to work with a curse of the black skin, which the Book of Mormon talks about.
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:53.130
And those are passages of the Book of Mormon that I used to struggle with, and I kind of avoided and put them on that shelf that Jim referred to.
00:43:53.762 --> 00:44:08.501
But then when the recent priesthood essay came out and the church went into that and acknowledged that there were mistakes made, that that doctrine, what I got from that essay was that doctrine was false.
00:44:08.742 --> 00:44:17.713
So that essay, just to be clear, my interpretation of that essay was that doctrine was inaccurate, unreliable, and false.
00:44:17.853 --> 00:44:20.478
In fact, at the end, it said the church disavows falsehood.
00:44:20.865 --> 00:44:29.414
any past teachings or practices that teach inequality and reaffirms its commitment to equality.
00:44:29.494 --> 00:44:30.496
Again, I'm paraphrasing it.
00:44:30.556 --> 00:44:32.418
It's an important paragraph at the end.
00:44:32.918 --> 00:44:43.250
But basically, what I was getting from that, it was throwing past leaders like Brigham Young and others who was very opposed to black folks having equality.
00:44:43.469 --> 00:44:45.391
And we'll get into that right now in the podcast.
00:44:46.072 --> 00:44:54.005
And that was the position I was taught in seminary, Institute growing up at the age of 16 in the church.
00:44:54.666 --> 00:44:57.831
And then here's this essay saying, all that actually was wrong.
00:44:57.871 --> 00:44:58.512
That was a mistake.
00:44:58.693 --> 00:44:59.293
That was false.
00:44:59.373 --> 00:45:00.454
That is a false doctrine.
00:45:01.257 --> 00:45:07.846
And for me personally, that was the beginning of a thread that started to unfold.
00:45:08.327 --> 00:45:10.750
And you took a different journey, which is great.
00:45:10.789 --> 00:45:11.670
And I respect that.
00:45:12.192 --> 00:45:14.114
My journey took me in a different direction.
00:45:14.215 --> 00:45:19.561
Now I read Ruston Rowling and other books, etc., And it took me into other areas where I had questions.
00:45:19.641 --> 00:45:27.335
And by the way, when the essay came out, actually, my response was excitement and positiveness.
00:45:27.795 --> 00:45:29.179
I thought, this is great.
00:45:29.338 --> 00:45:32.945
Because I never believed that black folks and white folks are not equal.
00:45:33.045 --> 00:45:34.226
I just never felt that in my heart.
00:45:34.788 --> 00:45:42.280
And I never, ever thought, ever, that I was better than anyone else, even in my skin color.
00:45:42.481 --> 00:45:42.942
It didn't matter.
00:45:43.170 --> 00:45:46.195
You could be brown, you could be black, you could be white.
00:45:46.235 --> 00:45:46.936
It doesn't matter, right?
00:45:47.737 --> 00:45:50.141
I always felt that we're all equal under God.
00:45:50.161 --> 00:45:51.242
And the Book of Mormon teaches that.
00:45:51.342 --> 00:45:58.052
The Book of Mormon has those cursed, I think, racist comments in it, frankly.
00:45:58.452 --> 00:46:03.079
But it also counters that with other scriptures that all are alike under God and all are equal.
00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:04.583
I think, again, I'm paraphrasing there.
00:46:04.882 --> 00:46:05.824
I always felt the latter.
00:46:06.445 --> 00:46:10.210
And so there it was, presiding authority in the ward that you attended.
00:46:10.331 --> 00:46:12.094
I wasn't the state president, but I was on the state presidency.
00:46:12.449 --> 00:46:17.695
And I'm there presiding, the bishop saying, I'm the guy in charge in this priesthood meeting.
00:46:18.215 --> 00:46:19.797
And I said, brethren, look at this.
00:46:20.237 --> 00:46:20.838
This is wonderful.
00:46:21.219 --> 00:46:31.389
We've got the church acknowledging in an essay that those past teachings in regards to race in the priesthood were inaccurate, were false.
00:46:31.789 --> 00:46:32.949
I didn't say false, but inaccurate.
00:46:33.550 --> 00:46:34.851
And the church is addressing it.
00:46:34.972 --> 00:46:35.592
And this is good.
00:46:36.072 --> 00:46:36.733
This is really good.
00:46:37.434 --> 00:46:40.717
Have a guess what the reaction was from the leaders in the ward and the state.
00:46:42.498 --> 00:46:42.898
Not good.
00:46:43.278 --> 00:46:43.619
Not good.
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:44.219
That's what I mean.
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:46.362
Yeah, really not good.
00:46:46.443 --> 00:46:47.324
I was sitting to the side.
00:46:47.344 --> 00:46:48.746
I've talked about this on the early podcast.
00:46:48.766 --> 00:46:56.858
Sitting to the side and reprimanded by the leaders, people above me, to not discuss the essays.
00:46:57.338 --> 00:46:58.840
They'd just come out.
00:47:00.503 --> 00:47:03.887
Jim, as you know, there was a time that the essays were hard to find.
00:47:03.927 --> 00:47:04.829
They weren't...
00:47:06.030 --> 00:47:08.313
They're still hard to find.
00:47:08.333 --> 00:47:09.255
You're looking for them.
00:47:09.315 --> 00:47:11.438
You don't come up in any sort of...
00:47:11.969 --> 00:47:12.389
They don't.
00:47:12.490 --> 00:47:19.998
And TJ, to be completely, I agree, open and honestly, at that time, and Jill's talking about right now, they weren't easy to find.
00:47:20.278 --> 00:47:21.139
That's all I'm saying, right?
00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:25.184
So here I was, I printed it off, holding it up, and I read it, because no one could stop me.
00:47:25.465 --> 00:47:26.626
I was in charge, right?
00:47:27.266 --> 00:47:29.007
And I said, this is great.
00:47:29.228 --> 00:47:31.871
We're finally addressing something that is a concern.
00:47:35.275 --> 00:47:41.561
You know that movie, Tom Cruise, where he writes that Jerry Maguire,
00:47:42.242 --> 00:47:43.143
He
00:47:43.682 --> 00:47:46.485
writes that memorandum, that breakthrough, and he writes it.
00:47:46.545 --> 00:47:47.327
He's so excited.
00:47:47.387 --> 00:47:48.007
He shares it.
00:47:48.847 --> 00:47:50.090
He didn't realize it was a big mistake.
00:47:50.369 --> 00:47:51.911
It all backfires on him, right?
00:47:53.233 --> 00:47:54.454
And that was my experience.
00:47:54.494 --> 00:48:09.327
So this gratitude, excitement that he felt, this important acknowledgement, if you're at the church, in this really important document, the response was, it ranged from, is it official?
00:48:09.367 --> 00:48:10.949
Did the church write it?
00:48:11.170 --> 00:48:12.231
Did the leadership write it?
00:48:12.371 --> 00:48:13.132
Did they sanction it?
00:48:13.213 --> 00:48:13.954
Did they approve of it?
00:48:14.634 --> 00:48:20.981
Right through to the church has been hacked and anti-Mormons have uploaded the essay onto the church.
00:48:21.943 --> 00:48:31.356
And I am now, as state presidency, I've allowed myself to follow the dictates of the adversary, the evil spirit, and I've brought that into priesthood.
00:48:31.876 --> 00:48:41.659
And there I am teaching false doctrine under the authority of a state presidency leader And I was just blown away.
00:48:42.181 --> 00:48:45.105
I was told not to talk about it, not to share it, not to ask questions.
00:48:45.684 --> 00:48:46.927
It was awful.
00:48:47.027 --> 00:48:47.788
It was devastating.
00:48:47.847 --> 00:48:53.896
And it was the beginning of my journey out because I couldn't...
00:48:54.757 --> 00:48:57.079
It turned out to be a legitimate document,
00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:57.599
obviously.
00:48:58.581 --> 00:48:58.981
For sure.
00:48:59.001 --> 00:49:02.126
But here's my thought about that because I've had friends talk to me about it too.
00:49:02.686 --> 00:49:03.387
And here's my thing.
00:49:03.467 --> 00:49:07.351
Maybe I'm just naive, but anyone who has a solid...
00:49:10.690 --> 00:49:40.717
understanding of history knows that joseph smith had as part of the 70 and other quorums and so forth black people he did he did so so when when so in my mind when all that's transpired that this is the mystery right why does the lord if the church is led by the lord right why why does at times He allowed people to lead that are imperfect.
00:49:41.038 --> 00:49:47.148
Why does he allow doctrine to go uncorrected over time?
00:49:47.407 --> 00:49:50.032
I don't know the answer to that, but I knew.
00:49:50.052 --> 00:49:54.199
It wasn't a big surprise to me because I knew there was a time when they...
00:49:54.378 --> 00:50:01.150
So I don't know why Brigham Young, if it was Brigham Young, I don't fully know the whole thing, but why...
00:50:01.442 --> 00:50:04.925
Why would the Lord allow that to be a confusion point, right?
00:50:04.985 --> 00:50:07.148
That's a natural man's thought process.
00:50:07.670 --> 00:50:21.567
And then you reconcile that with, understandable, the church teaching from the prophets that the Lord, I think Wilford Woodruff, or I think it was, Jimmy can correct me, the Lord won't allow the leadership to lead the church astray, right?
00:50:22.527 --> 00:50:23.750
And so...
00:50:24.610 --> 00:50:40.931
So going back to the earlier point you made, which I think is a really important point to highlight for our listeners, and Jim talks about this a lot, has great insight into it, the infallibility of church leaders, that church leaders, living or dead, past or present, are not perfect.
00:50:41.050 --> 00:50:41.751
They make mistakes.
00:50:42.311 --> 00:50:46.376
But hey, let's acknowledge that, which the church is beginning to do, I think, more openly.
00:50:47.057 --> 00:50:48.039
We've made mistakes.
00:50:48.340 --> 00:50:50.121
Our history is not black and white.
00:50:51.543 --> 00:50:52.204
It's gray.
00:50:52.224 --> 00:50:53.106
There's lots of color.
00:50:53.666 --> 00:50:56.070
You know, there's lots of complexity.
00:50:56.590 --> 00:50:57.351
There's lots of challenges.
00:50:57.371 --> 00:50:58.592
But let's be open about it.
00:50:58.632 --> 00:50:59.675
Let's be transparent about it.
00:51:00.036 --> 00:51:02.378
Let's not shut down people because they've got questions.
00:51:03.581 --> 00:51:05.684
If you have a different perspective, let's talk about it.
00:51:05.884 --> 00:51:09.530
Let's just openly have a good conversation and let's help people feel safe.
00:51:10.231 --> 00:51:10.952
Like I didn't.
00:51:11.072 --> 00:51:11.873
I didn't feel safe.
00:51:14.597 --> 00:51:20.565
But let's help people feel safe and secure, be able to talk about things that they've got questions about.
00:51:20.746 --> 00:51:22.730
So I really appreciate your...
00:51:23.393 --> 00:51:28.221
know your perspective and your your thoughts on that certainly
00:51:28.240 --> 00:51:48.951
i i just think after this life uh some things will be reconciled we'll see you some things a little bit more clearly and we're asked in this life uh whether it be the bible or the book of mormon um to live on faith right you have faith and Love the Lord, right?
00:51:48.990 --> 00:51:53.534
You know that President Nelson is pointing people to Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ.
00:51:54.275 --> 00:51:55.516
We just have to remember that.
00:51:56.137 --> 00:52:01.822
There are things as a growing church from obscurity, from unlearned men, there's gonna be mistakes.
00:52:01.862 --> 00:52:05.927
And I would remind the listeners that I have a brother who's a bishop right now.
00:52:06.467 --> 00:52:08.409
These leaders in the church are not getting paid.
00:52:08.909 --> 00:52:16.257
These are people in the church that have full-time jobs, have families to take care of, and they don't have every answer for everything.
00:52:17.697 --> 00:52:29.056
So let's at least give our local leaders a little bit of breathing room because it's not a career move for them to be a leader in the church, if you know what I mean.
00:52:29.797 --> 00:52:32.221
Well, so have you been a bishop?
00:52:32.842 --> 00:52:35.206
I've been in a bishopric, not been a bishop.
00:52:36.266 --> 00:52:36.768
Same here.
00:52:37.789 --> 00:52:38.791
I've been in two bishoprics.
00:52:39.773 --> 00:52:48.851
And what's wonderful about the choir, this is a dirty little secret, is that it gets you out of all other church callings.
00:52:50.092 --> 00:52:50.813
Oh, does it really?
00:52:50.853 --> 00:52:53.117
Yeah, it is your church calling.
00:52:53.177 --> 00:52:59.307
I am called as a musical missionary, and so my ward is not allowed to call me to anything else.
00:52:59.949 --> 00:53:01.311
Oh, I didn't know that.
00:53:02.893 --> 00:53:04.916
That's not like you're not busy, though.
00:53:04.936 --> 00:53:09.103
I mean, you're playing all the time.
00:53:09.423 --> 00:53:15.403
So I have been in two bishoprics, and I was much busier when I was in a bishopric than I am in the choir.
00:53:15.483 --> 00:53:16.965
The choir, the time commitment.
00:53:17.726 --> 00:53:19.288
You have a Thursday night rehearsal.
00:53:19.347 --> 00:53:21.989
You have a Sunday morning broadcast.
00:53:23.572 --> 00:53:29.557
There are extra rehearsals around conference time and around when you go on tour.
00:53:29.597 --> 00:53:37.686
But for the most part, it's, you know, your commitment is well outlined and it's fairly manageable.
00:53:37.706 --> 00:53:41.630
And when you're in a bishopric, you have all of Sunday is eaten up.
00:53:41.762 --> 00:53:46.168
with all of the meetings that you have, the board council, the PEC, the whatever else.
00:53:46.228 --> 00:53:47.989
I think they've streamlined those more.
00:53:48.451 --> 00:53:48.791
They have.
00:53:48.851 --> 00:53:49.853
Since I was in a bishopric.
00:53:50.494 --> 00:53:57.983
But you have a meeting in the middle of the week, and then things come up, and you end up going to young men's and young women's.
00:53:59.244 --> 00:54:04.032
You end up doing, you know, it was a much, much bigger time commitment.
00:54:04.072 --> 00:54:08.016
And you also go out, when I was a bishopric, you would go out visiting with the bishop.
00:54:08.898 --> 00:54:11.742
He would pick a night, and you'd say, we're going to go out and visit X time.
00:54:12.257 --> 00:54:17.726
It was a very rewarding experience, but extraordinarily time-consuming.
00:54:18.266 --> 00:54:18.387
It was.
00:54:18.407 --> 00:54:18.827
And you're right.
00:54:19.568 --> 00:54:21.030
They're not getting paid for it.
00:54:22.472 --> 00:54:36.672
And so I think you raise a really good point in that we ought to have as much grace, give as much grace to our church leaders as we expect them to give to us, if not more so.
00:54:38.835 --> 00:54:40.516
But Ian, you have been...
00:54:41.217 --> 00:54:47.927
You talk about when you were in a stake presidency, your stake covered such a large swath that you had to drive hours on end.
00:54:48.208 --> 00:54:50.030
Oh yeah, out there, for sure.
00:54:50.472 --> 00:55:06.295
Our stake is the Vernon, British Columbia stake, and the boundary, and I'm not exaggerating here, I think it's longer than the whole of Scotland as a country.
00:55:07.577 --> 00:55:11.251
We used to go to bishop meetings 8 o'clock in the morning.
00:55:11.731 --> 00:55:15.815
We used to have to get up at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning and get there at 8.
00:55:15.835 --> 00:55:18.257
And we were in the middle of the stake.
00:55:18.338 --> 00:55:21.420
And then we had to travel maybe two and a half hours south.
00:55:22.181 --> 00:55:26.306
So I think from bottom to top, it was probably about a seven-hour drive.
00:55:28.507 --> 00:55:30.530
That's seven and a half hours, I think.
00:55:30.550 --> 00:55:38.318
You can do Scotland from the border of Scotland up to John O'Groats there at the top there, what, six hours?
00:55:39.617 --> 00:55:42.922
Five and a half, six hours, five and a half hours, I think, yeah.
00:55:43.083 --> 00:55:45.226
So our stake is bigger than the country.
00:55:45.646 --> 00:55:46.547
It's a sacrifice.
00:55:47.309 --> 00:55:48.590
It is a sacrifice, yeah.
00:55:48.811 --> 00:55:48.911
It is.
00:55:48.931 --> 00:55:49.652
It is, for sure.
00:55:50.393 --> 00:55:56.061
But I got a great deal of reward, TJ, from serving and building those amazing relationships and living.
00:55:56.101 --> 00:56:03.492
And so, as I say, when I came across the essays, and I saw them as breakthroughs, not just that essay, but all the other essays.
00:56:03.972 --> 00:56:05.695
How many is it, Jamie?
00:56:05.715 --> 00:56:07.577
12, 13, 14 essays, roughly?
00:56:08.065 --> 00:56:15.954
Well, there are a bunch of essays, but only about 12 of them or so are covering really controversial type.
00:56:16.775 --> 00:56:26.945
And I found them very positive, not negative, positive, not anti-Mormon, just an acknowledgement that, look, we're trying to correct something, trying to improve it.
00:56:28.166 --> 00:57:10.009
TJ, if I may ask you, what's your, you know, building on the conversation that we've had so far with your experience your background we've said earlier that we've got listeners who are firmly in the church like you totally in the church serving fully active the people who have left who are maybe trying to come back in or people on the inside of the edge as Jim has said before and trying to navigate the faith with all kinds of questions and dealing with all kinds of issues what's your advice to people who are struggling with their faith who've got questions who who are trying to find themselves, are trying to rediscover that faith and testimony.
00:57:12.472 --> 00:57:16.476
Well, I think you've got to get into the Scriptures.
00:57:16.697 --> 00:57:21.402
God talks to you, talks to us through the Scriptures, the Holy Word of God.
00:57:22.704 --> 00:57:24.606
So what sources are people going to?
00:57:24.666 --> 00:57:40.394
Make sure that if you're going to go to all these podcasts and these writings and these essays and so forth, make sure that you're also taking time to read the actual Word of God, there's a spirit that comes from that.
00:57:40.856 --> 00:57:45.742
And I think just, I would say, approach it from a balanced approach.
00:57:47.003 --> 00:57:49.246
And I think the spirit is the teacher, right?
00:57:49.726 --> 00:58:01.681
When you have those impressions that will lead you down a path, hopefully it's a good and bears good fruit path, that you'll get the answers that you're seeking.
00:58:01.742 --> 00:58:14.302
Here's one thing I know about human behavior, though, because that's what my world is focused on, is how the mind works and how do we achieve success is you'll find whatever you're looking for.
00:58:14.342 --> 00:58:18.528
We do three things in our minds constantly.
00:58:20.211 --> 00:58:26.141
We delete information, we distort information, and we generalize information.
00:58:27.521 --> 00:58:37.215
If we didn't have the ability to delete information, we'd go stark raving mad because our mind naturally has a survival mechanism that allows us to delete some information.
00:58:37.255 --> 00:58:50.034
If you just notice all the sounds around you right now, if we just were really quiet for a second, you would notice, maybe you're driving in a car, you would notice the sounds that you weren't noticing while I was talking.
00:58:50.722 --> 00:58:57.452
But the other thing we do is we take data and we distort it based on what we value or what we're seeking and what we're looking for.
00:58:57.492 --> 00:59:01.259
And then the third one, we generalize.
00:59:01.318 --> 00:59:06.367
We say, well, if this happened here, then it probably bleeds into other things.
00:59:06.927 --> 00:59:09.893
And that's a good thing in terms of survival mode, right?
00:59:09.972 --> 00:59:15.356
Because you can open any door you go to because you've you've used a handle on a thousand other doors.
00:59:15.398 --> 00:59:19.344
So you generalize that knowledge to the next door you go to and you can open the door.
00:59:19.443 --> 00:59:20.224
It's pretty basic.
00:59:20.626 --> 00:59:29.679
But sometimes we take negative and bad experiences and we allow that to bleed into other areas of our lives.
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:51.288
So I'm just a big believer when good things are happening to you from a mindset perspective, blow the good out of proportion, make it bigger, make it colorful, make it enlarged in the way you look at it and the blessings that will come from it and the opportunities that will show up for you, when negative things happen in the world, shrink it.
00:59:52.329 --> 00:59:56.414
Try to delete it because you don't want more negative things to come in your world.
00:59:56.494 --> 00:59:59.978
So it's a constant flow between enlarging and shrinking.
01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:07.710
And whatever we value we're looking for, we'll likely find the evidence to make it true, whether it's true or not.
01:00:08.769 --> 01:00:16.882
So we really, it's a scary, we have agency, and it's scary that our minds have that ability.
01:00:16.983 --> 01:00:22.652
But anyway, Ian, I would just say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, man.
01:00:22.693 --> 01:00:23.052
Come on.
01:00:25.697 --> 01:00:31.547
I want you to know, because you and I are friends, and I don't want you to be disappointed in me because I've left.
01:00:31.827 --> 01:00:32.268
You and I are not
01:00:32.329 --> 01:00:32.528
talking.
01:00:32.548 --> 01:00:33.590
Oh, we're brothers first.
01:00:33.690 --> 01:00:34.132
It's fine.
01:00:34.612 --> 01:00:35.614
And I'm grateful for you.
01:00:35.809 --> 01:00:39.534
You know, I know you won't misjudge me, and I still am me.
01:00:39.574 --> 01:00:40.235
I've not changed.
01:00:40.375 --> 01:00:43.117
I still have faith in Christ and God.
01:00:43.137 --> 01:00:49.664
You know, I still hold a lot of the scriptures, and you talk about the scriptures passionately, and I still hold a lot of those verses.
01:00:49.884 --> 01:00:50.985
I still hold the inspiration.
01:00:51.005 --> 01:00:51.425
I really do.
01:00:52.226 --> 01:00:54.449
And so I'm on my own journey.
01:00:55.170 --> 01:00:59.815
You mentioned earlier, you know, we're on different walks of life, and some people are in and some people are out.
01:01:00.454 --> 01:01:02.336
You know, the podcast is Inside Out.
01:01:02.456 --> 01:01:02.818
Jim is...
01:01:03.458 --> 01:01:05.360
on the insides, and I'm on the outside.
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:07.101
We try to get that balance right.
01:01:07.342 --> 01:01:13.769
Sometimes Jim appropriately talks about some of the weaknesses of the church, and he's kind of touched upon that today.
01:01:14.170 --> 01:01:17.554
And at those times, sometimes I say, well, hang on, Jim, what about the other side of that?
01:01:17.934 --> 01:01:25.643
You know, if I'm on the outside, kind of say, well, hang on, the church is trying to do this, or it's doing this for this reason, and give it a bit of a chance.
01:01:25.722 --> 01:01:27.003
It's probably thinking like this, or do this.
01:01:27.364 --> 01:01:28.445
And then we kind
01:01:28.826 --> 01:01:29.226
of...
01:01:30.027 --> 01:01:31.869
My wife has often said...
01:01:32.481 --> 01:01:35.847
Listening to the podcast, it sounds more like Ian's in and you're out.
01:01:36.927 --> 01:01:39.873
And I found out.
01:01:40.393 --> 01:01:43.478
Ian's the one who sounds faithful, and you're the one that sounds like you're the rebel.
01:01:45.139 --> 01:01:45.541
It's funny.
01:01:45.681 --> 01:01:46.541
I've not lost my faith.
01:01:46.963 --> 01:01:47.764
My faith is still there.
01:01:47.804 --> 01:01:54.494
In fact, I would say, TJ, and this might sound odd, even though I've heard it before, but I'm more spiritual than religious now.
01:01:54.534 --> 01:02:04.425
So those universal principles of love, forgiveness, change, improvement, kindness, less judgmental, et cetera.
01:02:04.445 --> 01:02:12.914
I'm not perfect, obviously, but I feel stronger in those areas than I did when I was not in the church.
01:02:12.934 --> 01:02:14.635
And so I still serve in the community.
01:02:14.675 --> 01:02:20.681
And I get a little spirituality through that and also through nature.
01:02:20.701 --> 01:02:32.590
And I'm connected still deeply with friends who were in the church, people who've been extraordinary leaders who have left and people who have left and they've come back into the church.
01:02:32.630 --> 01:02:36.916
So my spectrum of relationships is kind of interesting.
01:02:37.697 --> 01:02:41.702
But the thing that connects us is that we want to do right, want to do good.
01:02:41.922 --> 01:02:43.065
We want to be kind.
01:02:43.125 --> 01:02:49.132
We all know and believe that to achieve happiness, you have to serve others.
01:02:49.333 --> 01:02:49.934
I've always felt that.
01:02:50.775 --> 01:03:01.840
In order to find ourselves and to find our authentic selves and to find happiness or some semblance of peace and harmony in life, but can only do that, in my opinion, by helping other people.
01:03:03.943 --> 01:03:10.248
And this great joy that comes from help genuinely, not for reward or recognition or because of a calling.
01:03:10.728 --> 01:03:15.574
You know, you don't have to serve because you've got a calling or you're a home teacher or a ministry teacher, etc.
01:03:15.994 --> 01:03:19.336
Just serve because it's good, it's right, it feels good.
01:03:20.297 --> 01:03:24.661
And my goodness, you get so much joy by helping someone else.
01:03:25.523 --> 01:03:37.110
Therein lies that universal principle that Christ taught who taught in the streets, he taught in the homes, he taught in the hills, and he blessed people at a very, very personal level.
01:03:37.891 --> 01:03:40.516
And he did that in a way that was extraordinarily humble.
01:03:40.836 --> 01:04:02.929
And you said, very beginning of this conversation, and it struck me, is the reason why we've got major problems in this world is because there are people who are selfish, self-serving, power-greedy, and actually quite corrupt and somewhat evil individuals who put themselves first and don't care about others.
01:04:03.369 --> 01:04:07.052
That is completely in contrast, total contrast to Jesus Christ.
01:04:07.873 --> 01:04:13.458
Jesus Christ is in complete opposite some of the so-called leaders in the world today.
01:04:13.518 --> 01:04:27.849
And if they could just take an example of Christ, even at the basic level, and have a level of humility, just an ounce of humility and a reflection, and to be a little bit teachable which just seems beyond them, frankly.
01:04:28.289 --> 01:04:32.014
But if they could possess some of those qualities that Christ had, I agree with you.
01:04:32.054 --> 01:04:34.177
I think we'd be living in a very different world right now.
01:04:35.239 --> 01:04:42.067
I think the greatest self-help book is probably the Bible and, personally, the Book of Mormon.
01:04:42.146 --> 01:04:47.954
And anyone that has ever truly sought and read the Book of Mormon, I think, can feel the spirit from that.
01:04:48.034 --> 01:04:49.056
I could tell many...
01:04:49.076 --> 01:04:52.860
So here's one thing I would say to people, and what you said is beautiful.
01:04:55.041 --> 01:05:03.152
Think of the times when you did feel the Spirit, when you knew that intelligence was flowing through you.
01:05:03.994 --> 01:05:13.208
And sometimes we get busy in life that we forget about those moments in our life where we have been touched by deity.
01:05:14.048 --> 01:05:27.708
And I think If we will draw near unto Him, He will draw near unto us, but many people aren't seeking, and you're right, some people feel more spirituality in the wilderness, for sure.
01:05:27.728 --> 01:05:41.606
Everybody's mode of hearing the Spirit or the modality they use to feel close to God is not equal for everybody, and everybody feels it and hears it differently.
01:05:42.273 --> 01:05:44.416
So I think we have to be patient with people.
01:05:44.456 --> 01:05:45.657
I think we need to love people.
01:05:45.737 --> 01:05:50.202
I think we need to assume the good out of people rather than assume the bad.
01:05:51.184 --> 01:05:54.427
Look for the good rather than the negative.
01:05:54.447 --> 01:05:59.713
The world is full of negative, but we don't want to live there, right?
01:05:59.753 --> 01:06:04.219
We want to live, and it doesn't mean everybody needs to be a member of the church to be happy either.
01:06:05.521 --> 01:06:06.481
Just live good.
01:06:08.418 --> 01:06:10.159
And you'll be blessed for it, I believe.
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:11.842
The law of reciprocity will come back.
01:06:13.983 --> 01:06:30.282
Well, so this sounds a little bit, can you just, I know we're coming up near the end here, but can you give me a sense of how your faith and your membership in the church informs your professional life?
01:06:31.023 --> 01:06:36.309
Because you've talked about leadership and you've talked about the kind of counsel you give in secular settings.
01:06:36.833 --> 01:06:38.655
Do you see an overlap there?
01:06:38.675 --> 01:06:40.137
Total overlap.
01:06:40.719 --> 01:06:40.918
Yep.
01:06:41.659 --> 01:06:48.467
I don't bring up in my speeches Jesus Christ or the church or anything like that, but if you look at the...
01:06:49.949 --> 01:06:58.820
So the subtitle of my first book, If You Think You Can, the subtitle is 13 Laws That Govern the Performance of High Achievers.
01:06:59.780 --> 01:07:20.704
Those laws, just so everybody knows, I don't know if I've ever shared this before, I took every one of those 13 laws and I balanced it against Scripture to say, hey, can I make an argument that technically I could come out with an if-you-think-you-can version that would be in harmony with the Bible, that would be in harmony with the Book of Mormon?
01:07:21.025 --> 01:07:21.525
And you bet.
01:07:21.726 --> 01:07:24.650
I have a list of Scriptures for every principle I taught in there.
01:07:24.911 --> 01:07:26.673
Does it mean you have to use the same language?
01:07:27.134 --> 01:07:27.375
No.
01:07:27.936 --> 01:07:31.880
And so I...
01:07:32.865 --> 01:07:39.978
I think you teach true principles and you teach people correct principles and you let them, as Joseph Smith said, govern themselves.
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:47.594
And I think great leaders and companies teach the vision, teach what's expected, develop their people sufficiently.
01:07:47.969 --> 01:07:49.932
and let those people govern themselves.
01:07:50.293 --> 01:07:51.856
Let them use their own minds.
01:07:52.177 --> 01:07:54.139
Let them use their own ingenuity.
01:07:54.541 --> 01:08:00.711
And then create an atmosphere where transparency is king, where ideas can be shared without shutting them down.
01:08:01.032 --> 01:08:15.476
And I'll tell you what, I have stories after stories that I share in my speeches and so forth, where frontline workers actually created the breakthrough that company needed to make millions of dollars or whatever the situation was.
01:08:15.876 --> 01:08:24.447
If we will listen to the people, and I think listening is a critical aspect to growth and fulfillment.
01:08:24.806 --> 01:08:26.029
Think about your relationships.
01:08:26.128 --> 01:08:27.329
Think about your children.
01:08:27.350 --> 01:08:30.253
Of course they want us to listen more, right?
01:08:30.354 --> 01:08:41.219
And just being more of a listener and hearing things, trying to come from their perspective instead of shutting them down, I think, which we've kind of just talked about in this podcast.
01:08:41.279 --> 01:08:49.069
But I do tie it all in generally because I stay pretty true to fundamental principles, right?
01:08:49.250 --> 01:08:51.573
I'm just really safe in those principles.
01:08:54.917 --> 01:09:03.189
Well, TJ, Jim, thank you both so much for creating, generating an extraordinary conversation.
01:09:03.229 --> 01:09:04.810
I've really enjoyed it.
01:09:04.871 --> 01:09:05.752
I've learned a great deal.
01:09:06.432 --> 01:09:13.996
Before we close here, TJ, and same to you as well, Jim, Do you have any parting comments or advice that you'd like to share with the listeners?
01:09:14.456 --> 01:09:18.662
That's a question for you both based on the conversation that we've had with you, TJ.
01:09:20.524 --> 01:09:26.653
Well, I will defer to TJ and just say how grateful I am to come on here and grateful I am to visit with you.
01:09:26.752 --> 01:09:35.445
I really think you're quite inspiring and it's a lot of fun to be able to get a feel for what it is you do and for who it is you are.
01:09:36.162 --> 01:09:48.636
And I'm very grateful for what seems to be, which is undoubtedly a very positive impact on the world and on the people you serve.
01:09:49.939 --> 01:09:50.319
Thank you.
01:09:50.579 --> 01:09:51.980
I hope that's true.
01:09:52.001 --> 01:09:53.764
I think it is, but I hope it's true.
01:09:53.783 --> 01:09:58.829
And I'll say thank you, too, for having me on your podcast.
01:09:59.130 --> 01:10:01.172
And I can tell your spirits are wonderful.
01:10:01.453 --> 01:10:01.953
And so...
01:10:02.945 --> 01:10:09.795
I guess in closing, I would just remind everybody that each person has greatness within.
01:10:09.814 --> 01:10:24.335
And one of the, I think one of the purposes of life, and you guys will appreciate this, is to become the measure of your creation.
01:10:24.375 --> 01:10:29.181
And so who do you look to the listener?
01:10:30.663 --> 01:10:32.126
What is it that you want to achieve?
01:10:32.641 --> 01:10:37.109
Is it in balance with the values that you have, that you espouse to have?
01:10:37.911 --> 01:10:38.551
Is it good?
01:10:38.652 --> 01:10:39.934
Does it make you a better person?
01:10:40.014 --> 01:10:43.198
Does it leave the people you're working with feeling better about themselves?
01:10:43.739 --> 01:10:47.386
And then go after those goals with everything that you've got.
01:10:47.426 --> 01:11:04.273
Everybody has greatness within, and most people don't realize what they have until they're willing to risk stepping out of the comfort zone, and then they realize, wow, All of a sudden, the magic carpet will appear and they'll realize they do have some skills or they may notice an area that they need to improve.
01:11:04.292 --> 01:11:07.697
And then by improving that area, it opens a series of doors.
01:11:08.238 --> 01:11:12.442
And so I think for the listener, hey, believe in yourself.
01:11:13.984 --> 01:11:16.327
Believe in a cause that's bigger than yourself.
01:11:18.288 --> 01:11:19.310
And believe in God.
01:11:20.931 --> 01:11:22.413
I'm a history buff.
01:11:22.993 --> 01:11:24.655
You look at every generation that...
01:11:26.434 --> 01:11:38.530
Those that have loved God and those who have kind of pushed God out and the destruction of societies and families and so forth tend to be those that have pushed God out of the public square.
01:11:39.853 --> 01:11:42.556
Let's get back to some of those core principles.
01:11:42.896 --> 01:11:48.966
And I think not only will we feel happy, but we'll create happiness in our homes.
01:11:49.907 --> 01:11:51.449
A better spirit will be in our homes.
01:11:51.905 --> 01:11:59.900
and in our interactions with other people that are a part of the faith or not of the faith, and I think we'll all be blessed as a result of it.
01:11:59.921 --> 01:12:03.087
So go out there and unleash your greatness with them.
01:12:05.811 --> 01:12:09.779
Well, that's it for the podcast, everyone.
01:12:10.139 --> 01:12:11.561
We're grateful to all the listeners.
01:12:12.162 --> 01:12:15.488
Please join Jim and I next time on Inside Out, where we...
01:12:15.970 --> 01:12:22.685
Look forward to more lively and robust discussion about the Mormon Church and faith and often life in general.
01:12:23.306 --> 01:12:29.421
So on behalf of Inside Out and all the listeners, thank you, Jim, and thank you, TJ.
01:12:29.440 --> 01:12:31.244
You bet.
01:12:31.846 --> 01:12:32.307
Thank you.