James Fadiman | The Subtle Power of Microdosing

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Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall,
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and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
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authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from
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leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
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and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
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is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
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helping you find alignment with the person you are always
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meant to be. Let's get started. My name is Fleet Mall.
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You're a host for this session, and I'm thrilled to
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be here today with Jim Padman, and welcome doctor Padman.
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It's a great pleasure to be here, great pleasure to
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be here with you.
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I I like to helve into your history a little
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bit because you are clearly one of the pioneers in
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this movement. And I don't mean to make any assertions
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about your age, but we're both got gray hair, we're
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both baby boomers. So you had an initial workshop you
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did at Escelin called Expanding, and I'm curious how that work.
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Your own transforming experiences around psychedelic your interactions and connections
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with pioneers like Ram doos and known as Ritard Alpa
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and Timothy Leary, Alice Huxley and Willis Harmon and others.
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How that impacted the direction of your life, your research,
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your whole career in science and so forth. So maybe
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you could give us a little bit of that history
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as it informs where you are now sure.
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Well expanding vision. And I'm delighted. God knows where you
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could find the history for that was the first seminar
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at Estlin that anyone came to. It was actually their
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third listed seminar, but we were the first one that
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anyone came to it. It was with Willis Harmon, It
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was Fresher at Stanford and me who was the first
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year graduate student. We discovered that a lot of people
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were interested and that no one had any experience, and
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it was a very exciting weekend where a lot of
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people discovered that being with each other at a seminar
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in a beautiful place like Esln had its own energy.
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So my career, I really had no career prior to psychedelics.
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I was a student at Harvard, better known for being
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in minor roles in theater than doing anything academic. But
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then I went and lived in Paris, and in Paris
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where I wrote a novel. Richard Alpert, who was my
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favorite professor, showed up on his way to Copenhagen for
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the first seminar, first kind of public presentation of their
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psychedelic use at Harvard. So it was Huxley, Alpert, and
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Leary presenting in Copenhagen to a very interested and quite
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negative crowd of international psychologists. So on the way, Dick
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said to me, the greatest thing in the world has
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happened to me. We're sitting at a cafe on Boubay
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Saint Michel, and I said, oh, that's great, meaning I
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sat back expecting a story, and he takes out of
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his breast pocket this little bag of box of pills,
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and I'm so straight. I drink coffee and I look
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at this, and he looks at me, and he takes
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out a pill and I take it. And an hour
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or so later, somehow the lighting at night in the
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bulbar Sat Michelle has changed. It's much brighter, everything's more colorful,
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and I'm going to hear bits of conversation that we
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would normally hear, you know, passing by. And then I
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realized I've been in Paris about a year. My French
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is not very good. I've never been able to hear
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those conversations clearer. That was my first awakening. The kind
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of colors and noise just felled kind of cool. So
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I said to Albert, this is too much for me,
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and he looks at me. He says, too much for
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me too. I said, you didn't take anything, He said,
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it's my first night in Paris. So we withdrew to
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my sixth floor walk up, and by three or four
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hours later, a lot of basic ideas that I felt
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were necessary to protect my identity were loose. They weren't gone,
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but they were loose. And he went on to Copenhagen.
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A week so later I followed him to Copenhagen. We
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did this again and it was a great deal of
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bonding and caring and opening, and nothing of what we
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would call now traditional psychedelics. This was a very turns out,
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a moderate dose. A few weeks later, my draft board
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and I had worked out an agreement is if I
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would go to graduate school, they would not send me
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to Vietnam. And that worked, I think really for both groups.
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I was a better graduate student than I would have
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been a soldier. I met Willis Harmon, who was professor Stanford,
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and there was LSD research in a little clinic going
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on near Stanford. And after a while they said to me, well,
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why don't you have a session with us? And I thought, hey,
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another group, another bonding, another pleasant, long evening, and I
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was given a realistic dose of LSD, probably four hundred micrograms.
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And after about thirty or forty minutes, the tree that
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you could see from the window of this little clinic
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started moving a lot. And when I was offered the
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chance to lie down and have ee shades and earphones,
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I thought that was a wonderful thing to do, and
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the idea of communicating with people seemed unrealistic. So by
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the end of that day my life had taken a
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distinct turn where my basic theories of most everything had
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been not only loosened, but a number were thrown away.
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And so my sense of identity shifted, my sense of
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what interested me, this was the most interesting thing that
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had ever happened. My awareness of my ignorance of philosophy, religion, metaphysics, physics,
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consciousness all kind of floated away. And from that point
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on and I'm still in that state to some extent.
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My career began in an underground, defensive way because Stanford
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was basically behaviorism and psychoanalysis, and I was kind of
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under the radar as much as I could be the
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only graduate student of war suit and tie, so I
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thought I'd fool them that I was straighter than they were,
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and they were fooled. So dissertation on psychedelics, the government says,
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by the way, we're closing down all research, and it
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happened in the middle of our research project with creativity
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and senior scientists, So my career was affected. As too
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small a word, my career was entirely turned on what
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I had learned in psychedelics, only to find out four
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years later at the end of my dissertation on psychedelic
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therapy that nobody know that this was now a illegal substance.
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All research counciled, and since I had not been at
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all underground, I stayed above ground and did a great
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many other things. So that's in a very small capsule,
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how I fell out of being Jim Fadom and student
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at Harvard, somewhat self impressed and more interested in books
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than in people, to being kind of open to the
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fact that we are linked together in a way that
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is much more obvious in nature than in big cities.
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So here I am.
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It seems to be one of the fundamental insights that
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is almost universally experienced with psychedelics. To my understanding of
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that research you were doing at Stanpard, from what I've
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read about it, a number of the senior scientists that
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participated in that study did end up experiencing the psychedelic
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scientific breakthroughs one kind of another. They came into the
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study with problems to solve, and many of them did
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land on you know.
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This was the study was could you use psychedelics for
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scientific problem solving? For hard science? And my initial feeling
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when Willis came up with this idea, which it was
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total nonsense, because you obviously would trip out and get
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lost in your own consciousness and in beauty and so forth.
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But it turns out if you basically paid very close
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attention to set and setting, you had a where people
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were communicating with themselves and with others if they needed to,
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and the problem mattered to them emotionally. That was the
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secret that held it together and the way you got
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scientists to care about a problem emotionally is you say
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you can only come in with a problem you haven't
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been able to solve in at least three months. Now.
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These were people who had a lifetime of success. They
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weren't good at failure. They didn't know quite how to handle.
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It was upsetting to them. So they cared and we
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said we never said anything about your personality or your soul,
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or your self, or your trauma or your religious beliefs.
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We just said this is going to be for problem solving.
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So they came in to problem solve, and they did.
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They would have a morning with the earphones and my shades,
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and then we said, now you can work on your problems.
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And they had three or four hours to work on
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the problems. As a newspaper article written many years later said,
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forty eight problems forty four solutions was really quite remarkable.
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And it was in the middle of that study that
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a letter came from the Food and Drug Administration saying,
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as of the receipt of this letter, your research is canceled.
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Your experimental exemption is canceled. And I was the youngest
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person in our crew. I opened the letter. We sat
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as a little group and looked at it. And we
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had four people lying on the couches in the next
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room waiting to be awakened to work on their problems.
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And I said to the group, I think we got
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this letter tomorrow and put it in the drawer, and
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indeed it came tomorrow, and that ended our research. And
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in Silicon Valley there are many, many stories, more and
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more of them coming up of how companies were formed
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out of people's psychedelic problem solving activity. Yeah.
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Again, you know, maybe some of that surban legend, but
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I think a lot of it is true that some
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of the progenitors of the digital age that is now
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so advanced, but the early personal computer age and all
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of that, there was some relationship between some of those
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inventors and psychedelic use.
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At least Steve Jobs said so that the Bill Gates,
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when asked about his own psychedelic experiences, said, I don't
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discuss anything like that now. The only people who won't
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discuss anything like that are people who've had experience. The
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other alternatives say no, I have no experience. So yes,
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the digital age was facilitated in part by a few
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people's breakthrough psychedelic experiences.
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And I want to circle back later on our conversation
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to the relationship between the potential use of microdosing and
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creativity and problem solving and so forth, which again in
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Silicon Valley, I think there's a lot going on there
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with even in an entrepreneurial space. So we'll circle back
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to that. So about according to your bio, about ten
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years ago, your interest began specifically in your work around microdosing.
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So what led to your interest in microdosing? And then
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let's explore some of what you've learned in terms of
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the benefits and so forth.
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The way most science really works when you peel away.
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The founder's story is I was having lunch with some
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named Robert fort Frte, and he told me that Albert
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Hoffman took very low doses of LSD and he took them,
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and as I found out later, Albert said, so I
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would take a low dose and I take a walk
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in the woods. It was good for thinking, and I
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and then Robert talked about the use of low doses,
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and my immediate reaction was zero interest. I was interested
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only in imagine an amazing transcendence and life changing events
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and the idea that this would do something like improve
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your golf game. Which it does, just didn't hold my attention. Well,
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the nice thing about psychonauts is if you say would
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you like to take they don't even know it, need
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to finish the sentence before the answer is, well, sure,
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I'll try that. So what I got back was reports
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that said, you know, that was really nice, I really
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enjoyed that. Was that fel great? Which isn't a lot
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of data to go on, but it said they're and
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effect at that level. That's where it started. The first
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research had again a lot of funny parts of it.
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I'm in Chicago. I'm giving a talk about psychedelics in general.
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It's to a group of people who have rented a
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factory emptied factory in Chicago. They're artists. They've built little
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spaces and they have an entertainment now and then. So
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I'm the entertainment. And at the end of my talk,
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which included microdosing, the person who directed the whole thing said,
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you know, wouldn't it be fun if we sent microdoses
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to a bunch of people and they could then write
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you back their results. And I said, oh, you're saying
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I should take a bunch of microdoses from somewhere. I
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should mail them all over the United States and the
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return address of these illegal drugs that I'm mailing should
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be mine. And he said, no, no, no, I'll do that.
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So a couple of weeks later and he also sent
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them out with a notebook and a pen. He was
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an artist. So I began to get the first really
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reports and they were astounding. They ranged from someone who
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had three points each day one two three, one sentence
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to someone who wrote a couple of thousand words a day.
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And what I got was this made a difference for people.
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They could feel it, they could experience it. It made
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a difference. And we also had the first clinical report.
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It's a very well known but rare condition. It's the
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depression that follows returning from burning Man as a very
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well known, if not well explored, clinical condition. And this
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wonderful woman wrote she said, for the first time, when
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I returned from burning Man, I did not have this
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depression due to microdos So we knew we were onto something.
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So it simply grew from there, and I began to
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say to people, I'd like to know what's going on
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for you. Can you send me a report?
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Very interesting, I hadn't heard about that phenomenon and really
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into burning Man. It makes sense. I think there was
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a collective depression kind of at the end of the
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heyday of the love and Light psychedelic era, when things
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started shifting into darkness and so forth in the very
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early seventies. You know, this is one thing. Maybe this
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is kind of a side question because I want to
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continue talking about, you know, what you've learned from your research,
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and then the protocol you've developed and some of the
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other protocols that are out there, the Pulse Stamas protocol
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and so forth. But as I've learned about the microeoasing movement,
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I've been really curious about how this whole movement kind
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of exists more or less underground and seemingly almost an
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above ground way, and so much reporting can be done.
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I think Paul Stammas has collected something similar to you
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around thirty thousand first person reports or something. So there's
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a lot of people doing it, and even though the
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it's not psychoactive for the most part, there's still mostly
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most microdosing has include psilocybin. I think there may be
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some other forms, but it's not legal, so people are
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Somehow this whole movement has Arisen. I don't know if
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people are growing their own mushrooms, but it kind of
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exists in blow ground, the blovebound space. What could be
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said Some similar things can be said about the whole
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psychedelic renaissance and where we are with that.
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Well, the fact is that if you look at the
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thousands of reports that I've looked at, it's LSD or
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psilocybin that's ninety five percent. Then there's a few exotics
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that people use, but that's basically it because they have
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the same, basically the same profile, the same effect. As
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far as we know, LSD in its heyday was being
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manufactured in amazing amounts. I just know of one chemist
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who said, well, I made let's see, oh maybe two
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hundred and fifty million doses. That was the sixties. The
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thing about mushrooms is they there are two hundred species
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of mushrooms that contain psilocybin. They grow on every continent.
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They also have don't know they're illegal and they are
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roboties told nobody's told them. Yet nobody has told them.
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I think actually people have told them, but they say
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I don't quite understand that, as we plants don't work
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that way, and they are relatively easy for people to
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home grow, and so they have been replacing LSD simply
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because they're easier. And I know people who have said, well,
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I don't want to do anything illegal, like buy something
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on from somebody I don't know, but if I grow
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it in my closet, then I know what it is,
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I know it's pure, I know it's safe, and I
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can measure it exactly. So there are certain advantages to
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this method and in terms of its availability. About six
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years ago a Saphia Corbini, my partner at the time
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in science, did an outreach and we got reports from
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fifty one countries. More recent research done by a group
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called Quantified Citizen, which Paul Stammittz is one of the people,
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did a massive survey and they had it from eighty countries.
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There are certainly a lot of issues around legality, but
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there don't seem to be as many issues around availability.
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So let's talk that about how your research progress from
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this original this colleagues sending all these microdoses out and
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then you're starting at reports, how the research progress, and
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then how you began developing what became the Fatomin protocol. Well,
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I should make it clear that I operate almost entirely
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from what's called observational science, which is what are people
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actually doing and reporting. I haven't found theory terribly useful,
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but experiment, what's called real world evidence, seems to be
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much more helpful. So there I am, and I'm asking
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people you're microdosing, tell me what's going on. Well, if
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they're microdosing every day, I'm not going to get much
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new information. So I say to them, could you not
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microdose every day? And after a very short time, the
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first discovery is what we would call the second day effect.
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In high doses, it's called the afterglow, and in high
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do it lasts for maybe four to six weeks. In microdosing,
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it at least last at second day. So this is
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a second day phenomenon.
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So I wasn't getting any information a second day either,
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so I said to people, could you not take it
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for two days. My feeling was the third day people
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would go back to base and on the fourth day
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I would get new information. So from one person over
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a month, I would get ten observations. And given my
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capacity to take in information was limited, my budget was zero,
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my staff was zero. Something that I managed to maintain
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for many years in this work, and there we go,
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I get more data. Now what happened is as people
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would report over say a month, by the ninth or
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tenth cycle, they were reporting that things had stabilized and
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that therefore the three day the fact that there were
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two days in between didn't seem to matter to people.
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They often preferred the first day, but they felt that
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what became called the Fatomin protocol was good enough, and
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so for a long time that that was the only
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protocol out there. And of course it differed from pharmaceuticals,
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which have usually a every day or several times a day,
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and the effects began to look very different alsome. So
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the foundoment protocol, as I should say, had nothing to
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do with being a smart clinician.
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And so what sort of I know, microdosing people do
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it for therapeutic benefits, to deal with ameliorate the impact
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of anxiety, depression and other things, and then they're also
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doing it for creativity and problem solving, overall health and
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wellbeing and so forth. So what have you seen in
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the research and the reports you've been getting of Let's
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start with some of the human challenges that are often
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treated therapeutically anxiety depression, even PTSD addictions.
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And so forth.
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What have you been seen in terms of how microdosing
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has helped people with that.
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Let's go back a little basic, because it then comes
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off of the same platform. It looks like from what
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we've observed that microdoses seem to affect the dis equilibrium
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in the system. Now that disequilibrium is pain, it's anxiety,
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it's lack of balance, it's poor sleep. I'm using the
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word disequilibrium Sylvie to say anything that seems to not
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be working as functionally well as it should be, because
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it also affects obviously wellness the same way. So, given
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that base, if we look at those conditions, while when
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you dig into the research, very often it turns out
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we know extraordinarily little about some of these conditions, but
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people know the difference between being depressed and not being depressed.
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When you said including balance, did you mean physical balance also?
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Yeah.
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So I'm curious is whether you've discovered whether there's between
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things like anxiety, depression, pain, you know, emotional instability, what
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have you, and things like physical balance. Is there a
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common thread this question of dis equilibrium in our various
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systems of the body. Emotional, body, cognitive experience is a
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common thread. The quality of disequilibrium.
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Well, what I learned when I was getting my PhD
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in psychology from Stanford, and then I became a counselor
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at some point in Stanford, what I realized is is
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a psychologist, you were allowed to study everything above the eyebrows.
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You weren't supposed to do anything below the eyebrows. That
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had there was other specialists. Now, as an organism, that's
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just crazy, okay, because obviously they obviously work as a group,
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and the body doesn't make that distinction. So the generalization
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when I say equilibrium, that's the most I can do
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as a generalization. In psychedelic research, as you know, and
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as most of your people watching know very well, we
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make that distinction. And psychedelics have been used predominantly in
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high doses for men conditions. Now, if you are depressed,
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being say the most widely noted mental condition on the planet,
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you have physical issues, you are physically with less energy,
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you sleep less well, you probably have less social activities
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and a lot of physical problems. The idea that something
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can only affect the mind is something that you wouldn't
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say to an intelligent being. But when you're in the
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business pharmaceutical what you want is the small the narrowest
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symptom possible. Eastern medicine, Indian medicine, Aboriginal medicine, indigenous medicine
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are all system So what we find again in reports, well, well,
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let's look at depression, because we really have lots of
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reports the common experience with an SSRI when it works,
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and we know even the pharmaceutical companies say it doesn't
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work on thirty percent of people. When it works, it
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takes to six weeks and people feel less bad now, unfortunately,
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and that's what you're paying for. Unfortunately, many people for
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whom that is working also feel less good. What they're
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getting is a dampening of effect. And that's why people
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complain about they can't get off of their SSRI because
402
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they get depressed. But when they're on it, they're not depressed,
403
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but they say the word that most use is numb
404
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or zombie or flat. Now, what happens when you take
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a microdose whatever the disequilibrium depression is. And again we
406
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have a lot of measurement here with a very simple
407
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instrument called a positive and negative effective States instrument, which
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basically says, how are you feeling happy, sad, eager, enthusiastic, depressed, angry,
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et cetera. When you microdose, the bad feelings go down,
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but the good feelings go up. People report after microdosing
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or while microdosing is literally, and this is a quote
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from many many people, I'm back. What does that mean?
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It means I feel like I do or I did
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before I was depressed. I feel normal, I feel happy,
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my libido is back. I'm both enjoying work or disliking
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it more depending on the job. But I'm more able
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to feel feelings. That's so it's a different we're really talking.
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Something is different happening. So that microdosing for depression is
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not a better SSRI. It's coming at it from maybe
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different parts of the mind, of different parts of the brain,
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different parts of the system. That's probably the clearest data
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we have, because so many people have depression and have microghosts,
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and we only get people if you think about it,
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If SSRIs or whatever you're taking is working for you,
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you're not interested in microdosing. So we're in a sense
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limited to what's called treatment resistant people. Sure, the people
427
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who with the pharmaceutical people blame somehow, treatment resistance sounds
428
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like it's your fault rather than the treatments you were
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offered didn't work. That's are the pharmaceutical part of company's responsibility.
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So that's a huge difference, and that's probably the major
431
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difference as we talk about other conditions.
432
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:27.960
What if transformation isn't just about thinking differently but feeling differently.
433
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Science shows us that true change happens when we align
434
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:34.920
not just our minds, but also the neural networks in
435
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our hearts and guts. This heart mind connection is the
436
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Clip the link to learn more and start your journey today. Well,
451
00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:44.200
it's very interesting that, and I think this is true
452
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in the world of psycholic sis psychotherapy too, with moderate
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or higherdosis, where we really need a system understanding, a
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systemic understanding, a holistic understanding of the human body, which
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as you reference, the Eastern Indigenous Aboriginal autriditions have and
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now in the West we have agrade of medicine and
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so forth. By interesting, I interviewed doctor Andrew will a
458
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couple of years ago for the summit, and he referenced
459
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some experiences he had many years ago where psychatics actually
460
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relieved him of some chronic pain and he was able
461
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to physically do things he wasn't previously able to do.
462
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And he thinks there needs to be more research into
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the potential physical health benefits and pain amelioration, physical pain
464
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and so forth, or functional physical benefits from psycholics and
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perhaps microdosing. So with your protocol, so I understand that
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you began to you know, invite people instead of doing
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it every day to skip a day and the skip
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two days. So you're getting more reports, and that made
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sense from a research perspective in terms of the and
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you kind of luded that people still were getting the
471
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overall benefit. Has there been any kind of comparative research?
472
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And I realized this isn't double blind you know, clinical
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trial trap research, but even in terms of the report
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you're getting of the comparison of someone's experience who does
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some kind of on off protocol versus somebody who would
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mitro dozen every day.
477
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.240
Well, there's now a number of protocols out there. All
478
00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:11.799
of them have space between doses and something else, which
479
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.480
is every four to six weeks you take time off.
480
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:18.039
Unfortunately in SSRIs, I hate to keep blaming them for things.
481
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:21.000
They do the best they can, but will find Prince says,
482
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:24.119
if you skip a couple of doses, you'll have worse
483
00:28:24.200 --> 00:28:29.279
depression and will have terrible words suicidal ideation, which we
484
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:31.559
all know what that is supposed to mean in English.
485
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:35.880
With different protocols that have come up and obvious protocols
486
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:40.079
are every other day. Paul Stammett has two protocols, actually
487
00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.720
four days on, three days off, five days on, two
488
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:47.160
days off. And I said to Paul once, which is it?
489
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.680
And he looked at me and he said, you can't
490
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.680
be too rigid. And what he was saying is one
491
00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:54.759
is I'm not a clinician, I'm not a researcher. I'm
492
00:28:54.799 --> 00:28:58.519
of my collegist. But he was also saying that when
493
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.559
you're working with human being, your goal is not to
494
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.440
find a standard dose. Your goal is to find the
495
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.640
dose that works for each person at each part of
496
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.359
their lives. So we find, for example, that people who
497
00:29:11.640 --> 00:29:16.599
microdose for some condition, the condition improves, they stop. At
498
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.160
some other time in their life, they have another either
499
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.079
need or condition, and they start again, and they may
500
00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.400
or may not use the same protocol. They may or
501
00:29:24.440 --> 00:29:27.480
may not use the same substance. What they're after is
502
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:32.480
the kind of effects that they see as beneficial. And
503
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.880
so there is no research between protocols. There's barely research
504
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.400
on protocols. There's a little bit of research showing that
505
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:46.440
people who use the stamat stack, which is not just
506
00:29:46.599 --> 00:29:50.480
the psilocybin but Lion's dose and niosin do a little
507
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:55.440
better on certain tasks than people who don't, So we
508
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:58.400
also have so we have not only protocols, but we
509
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:05.240
have microdose plus additional substances, all of which is citizen science.
510
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:08.640
And again we have thousands of cases of each of these,
511
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:11.160
and in the laboratory things don't work as well. The
512
00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:16.839
laboratory is a very constrained and artificial way of measuring,
513
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:21.839
and certain things don't measure well under the same conditions
514
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.799
that a pharmaceutical does. So one of the problems the
515
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.400
government has is since double blind came in, by the way,
516
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:33.559
not for any science, but for political legal purposes, it
517
00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:37.960
has become a kind of iron maiden, which is, if
518
00:30:38.039 --> 00:30:40.720
you don't do a double blind, first of all, you're
519
00:30:40.759 --> 00:30:44.160
a bad person, and second of all, no one can
520
00:30:44.200 --> 00:30:47.759
believe your results. And that's the kind of religious position
521
00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:51.200
which is silly. It's kind of like saying, we are
522
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:54.960
considering using this hammer, but we have tested it, and
523
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:58.079
we test it the way we test every drill, and
524
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:01.079
it doesn't drill holds therefore or it has no use.
525
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:05.400
That's a pretty good analogy there. So yeah, absolutely, and
526
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:08.759
of course we've seen just recently, the FDA decided not
527
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:13.400
to recommend the rescheduling or approve MDMA for medical purposes,
528
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:18.000
and unfortunately they followed through with their recommendations from the
529
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:22.079
advisory committee, which was criticizing the research and criticizing it
530
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:23.839
in part the lack of a double blind, which is
531
00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:27.160
almost impossible to do with psychatics, or maybe impossible. And
532
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:29.000
what a lot of people don't know is the FDA
533
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.640
was involved step by step in the development of the
534
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:34.319
protocol that was used for all this clinical research, and
535
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:36.480
so one would hope that perhaps there's going to be
536
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:39.759
some conversations back and forth and eventually, maybe out of
537
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.559
the political wildlighte, they'll end up proving it one way
538
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.559
or another. It seems like they'll be moving, but it's
539
00:31:44.599 --> 00:31:45.880
an unfortunate setback.
540
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:49.240
The vi I Free committee had one curious curious thing,
541
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:51.640
which is who do you have on an advisory committee
542
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.480
to decide about the effectiveness of psychedelic therapy. Well, one
543
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:59.640
person on the committee actually had enough clinical or research experience.
544
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:04.200
The other nine actually had none. At From their written
545
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.640
and spoken comments, they were fairly clear. Several of them
546
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.559
admitted they had no idea that's was out of their league,
547
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:13.240
and I'm quoting, so when they fell back on the
548
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.720
double blind, they were basically falling back on the drill hammer.
549
00:32:18.039 --> 00:32:20.960
You know, we have known since the sixties, and therefore
550
00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:24.480
you need to find something that does work rather than
551
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:26.880
saying if a double blind doesn't work, then there's no effect.
552
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:31.640
So we hope that the FDA will consider science rather
553
00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:35.279
than the one tool that they have liked very much
554
00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:38.480
and has you know, a lot of benefit for determining
555
00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:40.440
certain things in phycobarmacology.
556
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:43.240
So, in terms of the data that you have from
557
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.880
the citizens' research approached you and others, including Paul Stammas,
558
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:50.000
has there been any data showing differences and in a
559
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:53.759
relationship between the dosage protocol, how many days on, how
560
00:32:53.759 --> 00:32:57.279
many days off, and so forth, and the dose itself
561
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:00.720
and the other components of the staff this idea of
562
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:03.000
a stack that might include things like lyon maane and
563
00:33:03.079 --> 00:33:04.160
niosin and so forth.
564
00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:06.319
Well, we know a fair amount about dose, and let
565
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:10.359
me just use psilocybin since it's most popular what we recommend.
566
00:33:10.599 --> 00:33:12.680
When people say what do you recommend, say, here's what
567
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.640
people have told us that between a tenth of a
568
00:33:15.680 --> 00:33:19.960
gram and half a gram is the range in which
569
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:22.960
you need to find what's correct for you. And the
570
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:27.160
recommendation is always start low, meaning at the very low end,
571
00:33:27.759 --> 00:33:30.559
go up very slowly if it's correct, and when you
572
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:35.079
find where it's working for you without any again special effects,
573
00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.920
but noticing that you're feeling better and your symptoms are
574
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:41.119
less and your neuropathy is less, whatever it is, stop,
575
00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:45.559
that's your dose. That's called a sweet spot, okay, and
576
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.559
your exam later goal is to lower the dose as
577
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:54.119
you continue to work until you no longer are using it.
578
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:58.599
So that's a very different model again than psychopharmacology, and
579
00:33:58.720 --> 00:34:03.359
that's what people now are doing. And again so the
580
00:34:03.440 --> 00:34:06.519
research done by human beings, done by real world evidence,
581
00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:09.480
that's what people have come up with as what seems
582
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:13.000
to be the most beneficial. Another group says, well, whenever
583
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:16.000
I go too low or stay off of it for
584
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.320
too long, my symptoms return. Then the advice is well,
585
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:24.000
then do another cycle. And there are conditions sufficiently serious
586
00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:30.599
where people simply are on a maintenance dose and that
587
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.719
as long as people feel they're benefiting and they're not
588
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.800
harming themselves. Member psychedelics high dose has been tested. It's
589
00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:41.159
among the safest things that come in a pill that
590
00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:44.599
you can put in your mouth. Microdoses being a tenth
591
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:48.840
to a twentieth of that, are even safer because with microdosing,
592
00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.639
yes you can operate heavy machinery, Yes you can drive,
593
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:56.639
Yes you can do computer coding. I'm still remembering a
594
00:34:56.639 --> 00:34:58.840
young man some years ago in a group in San
595
00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:03.039
Francisco discussing and he said, I only use microdosing when
596
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:06.559
I have a coding problem. So we haven't really looked
597
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.360
too much at the amount of use for people who
598
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:13.559
we would clinically call well, because that's.
599
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:16.079
Something I want to explore in a moment still, and
600
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:18.519
just to put the doses in context, and you kind
601
00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:20.760
of reference there with a tent to a twentieth But
602
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.599
if I'm not mistaken, a kind of somewhat standard psychoactive
603
00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:28.719
full trip dosage would be five grams of psilocybin.
604
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:29.960
That's a little high.
605
00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:31.760
That considered a heroic dose.
606
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.199
It by it's the bottom of heroic dose. And the
607
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:37.239
general term the general let mean just the suggestion of
608
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:40.639
many of you out there may complain heroic dose is
609
00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:46.159
defined as too much, right, Okay, The problem is that
610
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:50.679
you don't bring back much that's useful Now that's obviously
611
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:54.239
my bias, but it's a bias that from a clinical
612
00:35:54.280 --> 00:35:57.480
point of view is a very important one. So keeping
613
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.440
the doses appropriate to the way you want to work
614
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.280
is very important. And with high doses, and we may
615
00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:08.280
get to it, there's a difference between a therapeutic dose
616
00:36:08.360 --> 00:36:11.280
where you and a therapist can work, as with MDMA,
617
00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:16.440
and a transcendent dose, where the therapist becomes a guide and
618
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.239
says less and less and less.
619
00:36:18.599 --> 00:36:22.599
So probably anything over half a gram in psilocybin is
620
00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.039
going to begin to have some kind of psychoactive effect.
621
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.679
Yeah, as people say, you know, I'm feeling a little
622
00:36:28.719 --> 00:36:31.679
bit high and they're smiling, and I'm saying that means
623
00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:35.119
you're taking a little bit too much. People with lots
624
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:39.039
of psychedelic experience often imagine it's a common mistake that
625
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:41.599
this is a full dose and a microdose is a
626
00:36:41.599 --> 00:36:44.760
little full dose. That is not true. It's literally like
627
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.119
moving from the AM band to the FM band. They're
628
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:47.760
really different.
629
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.639
Another question I have about so you mentioned that that's
630
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.800
the protocol for people, and they'll do this, and they'll
631
00:36:54.840 --> 00:36:57.679
start low and bring it up and then ultimately lower
632
00:36:57.719 --> 00:36:59.960
the dose until they don't need it anymore, And perhaps
633
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.320
they've dealt with a particular issue they have and they're
634
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.159
doing better, so and they won't necessarily continue microdosing later on,
635
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:09.760
maybe they have another issue and they do again. You said,
636
00:37:09.800 --> 00:37:13.480
there may be some more kind of chronic you know, conditions,
637
00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:15.800
whether the person will stay on some kind of maintenance dose.
638
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:17.599
So what this points to is.
639
00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:22.079
Whether there are any kind of addictive propensities within microdosing,
640
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.840
even to feeling good as opposed to feeling bad. And
641
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:28.199
what your citizens' research is showing, do people have trouble
642
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:30.880
ratcheting it back down or do people seem to be
643
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.119
go on and off micro dosing easily.
644
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:36.519
Well, one of the things we know about high doses,
645
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.239
because we've actually done the research, is if you use
646
00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.920
it too often, what's called tolerance sets in which is
647
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.880
it no longer has an effect, so that it is
648
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:49.000
anti addictive in its in the way it works with
649
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:51.519
the body. Now, if you ask, well, how can it
650
00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:56.000
be that there's a there's very little and very pointless
651
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:59.519
research on that point, because it's very hard to measure
652
00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:04.159
something when the effects are not present. Okay, So it
653
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.360
is felt in the microdosing community that the reason for
654
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:12.559
starting low, going slow, and taking time off. That's the
655
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.559
third part of the little montrum has been independent. I
656
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:19.360
was because I didn't come up with that, but independently
657
00:38:19.440 --> 00:38:23.679
around the world, different groups have started using microdosing, even
658
00:38:23.719 --> 00:38:28.199
indigenous groups, and they've found that that is a useful
659
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:32.280
method and prevents tolerance. So it's not a now, will
660
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:37.400
people prefer to feel better forever? The answer is, of course,
661
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:41.400
But if what they're taking needs to only help them,
662
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:43.920
if they stop now and then, they will stop now
663
00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:48.000
and then. So the substance in a sense protects itself.
664
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:51.599
It doesn't fit the addictive model, and in any case,
665
00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:55.920
raising the dose doesn't basically you move into another set
666
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:59.840
of effects and so forth. So psychedelics have been accused
667
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:02.320
of addiction, and there are always people who are capable
668
00:39:02.360 --> 00:39:06.119
of being addicted to something. Ketamine, definitely ketamine. We know
669
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:09.039
what kenemine addiction is. We've got names for it, we've
670
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:11.920
got slang for it, and that's a different issue. But
671
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:15.199
ketamine operates on a totally different parts of the brain
672
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:20.440
and body than psychedelics. Psychedelics are anti addictive, and microdoses, yeah,
673
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:23.599
I'm sure that people have used microdosing now that we've
674
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:27.480
had enough years a long time. But again, when I
675
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.199
know some people with ten or twenty years of experience
676
00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:32.119
and they say, ye know, I'm microdos now, and then
677
00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:36.639
they never say I always microdose. I'm sure there are
678
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:38.639
people who do say that, but I haven't met them.
679
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:42.599
And if it's safe, remember you probably had a cup
680
00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:45.119
of coffee this morning. Eighty percent of people in the
681
00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:49.519
world did. It's safe, it's healthy. Now, if you had
682
00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:53.679
ten cups, it's dangerous, you'll be a little crazy and sick.
683
00:39:54.199 --> 00:39:57.559
But most people who drink coffee don't. They may become
684
00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:02.960
attached to it, and it's properties actually diminish over time,
685
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:06.679
but it's not dangerous and it's not unhealthy. Now. If
686
00:40:06.679 --> 00:40:09.880
you look at Michael Pollan's last book, on a Few Plants,
687
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:14.320
he did a chapter on caffeine, which is fascinating, and
688
00:40:14.360 --> 00:40:16.360
he does what he does. It's is he went to
689
00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.440
the experts, and the experts said, you can't figure out caffeine,
690
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:23.519
mister Pollen, unless you stop drinking it. It was extremely
691
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:26.800
painful for him to stop drinking. A journalist don't like
692
00:40:26.920 --> 00:40:29.920
to live without coffee. But when he finally went back
693
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:33.159
to coffee having finished the chapter, and he's having coffee
694
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.079
in Berkeley at his usual place, usual coffee. He gets
695
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:40.159
so high, it's so exciting, everything is so beautiful that
696
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.119
he realizes that there are effects of coffee which are
697
00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:48.760
diminished by having coffee. Maybe it's somewhat similar in microdosing,
698
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:50.960
not quite as extreme as coffee.
699
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:57.480
That's fascinating so to the perhaps neurochemical neurophysiological effects. And
700
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:01.360
I know there hasn't been clinical research on this pharmaceutical research,
701
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:04.039
but you mentioned that, you know, it seems to help
702
00:41:04.119 --> 00:41:07.119
with any way that the body is in dis equilibrium.
703
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:10.920
However that might manifest. One theory and some evidence around
704
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:16.360
the psychiaoltics do support increased neuroplasticity which could help our
705
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:21.400
systems come back into homeostasis, out of dis equilibrium into homeostasis.
706
00:41:21.599 --> 00:41:23.320
Has there been in any study of what's going on
707
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:28.159
neurophysiologically neurochemically with microdosing, and do you think it's amenable
708
00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:31.880
to research and or is there any relationship to something?
709
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:34.480
And I don't know where that the world of homeopathy
710
00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:38.880
where that's is probably considered pseudoscience by the major scientific community,
711
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.880
But it's doses that are so small and the mechanisms
712
00:41:41.920 --> 00:41:43.800
are of how it actually works as there ecal, but
713
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.000
it has a huge following of people that believe it works,
714
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.840
so I'm curious if there's any relationship. I think microdosing
715
00:41:48.880 --> 00:41:51.480
has bigger doses than homeopathy, for sure.
716
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:54.920
But actually that's the main difference. Homeopathy is really small doses,
717
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.440
including doses that by conventional Western science, there's nothing in
718
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.599
there at all. Right, Well, while the god Ro's number
719
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:05.360
for those of you that like those kind of things, Homeopthy,
720
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.840
by the way, is practiced in forty countries and the
721
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:11.159
Queen of England always has a personal homeopath. So the
722
00:42:11.199 --> 00:42:13.239
fact that if you actually look at the history of
723
00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:17.000
American medicine, the American Medical Association, one of its main
724
00:42:17.440 --> 00:42:22.159
activities for forming was to destroy homeopathy in its So
725
00:42:22.679 --> 00:42:26.800
homeopathy is its own world and it's different than microdosing.
726
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:30.360
The fact that both use small doses, but homeopathy also
727
00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:36.039
has like hundreds of remedies. It's very symptoms specific or
728
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:41.719
symptom collection specific, and microdosing is as you can mentioned.
729
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.559
As we've mentioned, you know, classic psychedelics, of which there
730
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:48.480
are very few, all seem to operate the same way.
731
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.760
It's an enormous difference, and they're different medical systems. Basically,
732
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:57.360
they're different physical symptoms. One can also use homeopathy for wellness.
733
00:42:57.519 --> 00:42:59.679
It's not used as much, but it is. It's out
734
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:00.519
there well.
735
00:43:00.639 --> 00:43:03.199
So suffice is to say, when one is microdosing with
736
00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:07.920
psilocybin analysty, there would be measurable psilocyber analysty in a bloodstream.
737
00:43:07.960 --> 00:43:11.199
I probably fear. Well, what's more interesting and easier to
738
00:43:11.239 --> 00:43:15.119
measure is brain waves. Well, now we've all seen pictures
739
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:19.159
of the brain before psilocybin with a few colored lines,
740
00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.440
and the brain after psilocybin with a lot of colored lines.
741
00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:25.199
So the one thing we have absolutely proved is you
742
00:43:25.239 --> 00:43:29.519
get more colored lines with psilocybin. Okay, now what that
743
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:33.239
means is you have more connections or disconnections, depending on
744
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.159
which theory you're going, but you basically have certain brain
745
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:41.519
waves that increase in amplitude. Recent research Connor Murray UCLA
746
00:43:42.159 --> 00:43:45.320
simple very clear, and Harriet DeWitt and some other people
747
00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:51.800
the effects of a micro doose are similar to a macrodose,
748
00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:55.719
a high dose, but lower in amplitude. Now common sense
749
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:59.400
would say, well, that makes sense, you're taking less. It
750
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.400
affects the same way now the effects of lower amplitude
751
00:44:02.679 --> 00:44:05.920
are different than the effects of higher amplitude. But there
752
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:08.320
is some old notions that, well, it must be a
753
00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:12.559
placebo because people think they'll get better. People who had
754
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:15.840
depression for twenty years and have used twenty different medications,
755
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:21.599
including electroshock, they are not placebo responders. So it was
756
00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:25.159
a realistic possibility because it's a small dose and small effects.
757
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:28.840
But we now know a number of physiological measures are
758
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:33.360
simply similar to high doses but decreased in amplitude. But
759
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:35.559
it's not as important as the brain research because that's
760
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:37.559
again real world evidence. Well.
761
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:41.119
Also, placebo has been used as a kind of a
762
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.000
marker for not a genuine effect. But actually the body mind,
763
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.039
as you've talked about, is one holistic enterprise, one independent enterprise.
764
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:51.639
So what's called the placebo effect is an operation within
765
00:44:51.719 --> 00:44:52.320
that system.
766
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:56.880
Right. So, and normal medicine, particularly psychedelic research high dose
767
00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:01.119
uses every placebo trick in the book read the research
768
00:45:01.159 --> 00:45:03.480
on placebo. What you know is you're going to be
769
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:06.239
giving you something. And I'm a student like you are.
770
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.039
I'm a fourth year graduate student and this is my specialty.
771
00:45:09.119 --> 00:45:12.159
Another group, I'm a professor with publications in this area.
772
00:45:12.480 --> 00:45:16.920
The effects are improved with each rise in the attributes
773
00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.800
of the person giving it. That's the placebo effect, and
774
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:22.920
we want it in every possible way. If you ever
775
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:27.559
looked at any advertising for anything, you're seeing the placebo
776
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:30.800
effect being used, right, I mean, if I go on
777
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:34.280
my phone, I look at Instagram. There is a cure
778
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:38.559
for something fantastic that nobody can cure, and it's been
779
00:45:38.599 --> 00:45:42.440
discovered by a elderly Japanese scientist who worked in a
780
00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:45.280
mountain that nobody knows about, and we can give it
781
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.719
to you for fifty percent. That's what the pl Cibo
782
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.320
effect looks like. And the substance may or may not
783
00:45:51.400 --> 00:45:55.519
have any value. Microdosing isn't given with any of that.
784
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:57.519
You buy it from somebody or you grow it in
785
00:45:57.599 --> 00:46:00.400
your closet, so you don't have any You lose most
786
00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:03.800
of the benefits of the placebo effect with the way
787
00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:06.400
microdosing is done, so it makes it easier to do
788
00:46:06.440 --> 00:46:09.039
your measurements. That's interesting, Yeah, very interesting.
789
00:46:09.559 --> 00:46:11.280
So we'll getting near the end of our time. I
790
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:12.800
want to make sure to ask you about your book.
791
00:46:12.800 --> 00:46:14.599
You have a new book coming out next year. What's
792
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:15.000
it about.
793
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:20.159
Well, actually surprised. It's about microdose and the title is
794
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:26.920
Microdosing for Health, Healing and Enhanced performance. This is because
795
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:30.719
there are so many uses non medical for getting better grades,
796
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:35.159
for being able to get over social anxiety, very massive
797
00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:40.079
usefulnesses that are they're not in the medical curriculum. Enhance
798
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:43.039
performance as a way of saying that you do what
799
00:46:43.079 --> 00:46:46.400
you do better, you don't do You're not more creative
800
00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:49.440
in an upsense, you might be, but you're more creative
801
00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.280
in an ability to focus and ability to be in flow.
802
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:57.679
So the book covers basically, it's filled with people's reports
803
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:02.440
of real world experience, real world evidence. The research community
804
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:06.960
is beginning to do microdosing research based on the thousands
805
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.079
and thousands of people who are doing it. Google noted
806
00:47:10.119 --> 00:47:14.320
that the search for microdosing the word has gone up
807
00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.199
twelve hundred percent in the last few years, and there
808
00:47:17.239 --> 00:47:20.000
were like three million searches last year for the word microdoses.
809
00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:23.280
It's out there and the research is now beginning to
810
00:47:23.320 --> 00:47:25.719
catch up and some very good research is being done.
811
00:47:25.880 --> 00:47:26.440
That's great.
812
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:30.719
So that leads into my final question, really is microrosing
813
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.760
four performance enhancement? And I have heard even just recently
814
00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:37.239
that and this is probably not such a positive association,
815
00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:40.559
but in Silicon Valley and I'm sure other places, that
816
00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:43.760
is becoming popular with entrepreneurs. And there's even a mindset
817
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:47.000
that if you don't microdose, you won't keep up with
818
00:47:47.039 --> 00:47:50.559
your competitors, which kind of makes a parallel to professional
819
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:53.039
athletes that feel if they don't use steroids, which are
820
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:56.239
illegal for professional athletes, they won't be able to compete
821
00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:58.800
at the highest level. So it's kind of a bizarre
822
00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:01.280
take on it, but it does point to that there's
823
00:48:01.320 --> 00:48:05.360
a current bleep or experience that micro doosin can enhance
824
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.079
cognitive performance creative performance, so.
825
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:11.519
Forth, well, it does for people for most people. But
826
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:13.840
as I say, you're not going to become smarter, you're
827
00:48:13.840 --> 00:48:19.239
going to become smart longer. That's beneficial. And what people
828
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.440
I know who microdose in the valley say, I use
829
00:48:22.480 --> 00:48:25.159
it now, And then I don't know anyone who who
830
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:29.239
buys into that particular kind of media hype that it's
831
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:32.519
just one more way in which your boss gets more
832
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:36.280
work out of you and pays you the same amount. Sure,
833
00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:39.079
but then again, does do they give you air conditioning?
834
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:43.079
You know? Aha, people are becoming addicted to air conditioning
835
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.599
in Silicon Valley because it seems to enhance performance. Let's
836
00:48:47.079 --> 00:48:50.719
and then then, of course, let's stop being stupid. Okay.
837
00:48:51.159 --> 00:48:54.199
So the fact is it's if it's healthy, you don't
838
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:57.079
use it much, you have to take time off, and
839
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:01.000
it seems to benefit your system. I mean, let me
840
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:03.599
give you a system. Because athletics. A nice thing about
841
00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:07.119
athletics is everything's measured to death. Guy says, I do
842
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:10.840
half marathons for pleasure, and I'm run five eight miles
843
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:13.280
a day and I keep very accurate records, and I
844
00:49:13.400 --> 00:49:17.559
notice on days that i've microdhosed, my daily run is better.
845
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.000
It's faster, or it's longer. And I say, that's terrific.
846
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:22.920
And he said, you know, I have a half marathon
847
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.360
coming up. It's a race. And I said, why don't
848
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:27.880
you microdose during the race, and we'll just see. And
849
00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:30.760
so I get this letter and he said, I did
850
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:36.320
the half marathon twenty minutes better. In fact, it's the
851
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:39.519
best time I've had in ten years. Okay, now he's
852
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:43.519
not breaking world records, but for pleasure, his body is
853
00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:48.159
working better. Yes, that's out there, and yes it's much
854
00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:52.119
more known in extreme athletics. Where everyone is very aware
855
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:55.800
of the possible benefits. It's also being more and more
856
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:59.039
known in the martial arts, and it's very hard to
857
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:01.800
test for. So perhaps the Olympics just say I don't
858
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:03.199
want to talk about it. I'm not sure.
859
00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:06.199
So last question, where do you see the future of
860
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:10.159
microdosing going. I've talked to paulse Damus and emagines a
861
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:13.079
time when there's basic supplements like other supplements that we
862
00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:17.480
buy that will have psilocybin or some other psychoactive component
863
00:50:17.559 --> 00:50:20.880
at a microdose level mixed with other supplements. But for that,
864
00:50:20.920 --> 00:50:23.599
there's going to have to be a legalization or some
865
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:27.440
determination that below a certain content level it's not illegal.
866
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:31.559
And there's some current efforts to decriminalize plant medicines in
867
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:34.079
some states like Colorado and Oregon and other places. So
868
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:36.360
I just wonder where you see this. There seems to
869
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.760
be a lot of citizen involvement and that may drive
870
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:42.079
consumer often drives change, So I wonder where you see
871
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:42.519
this going.
872
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:47.280
Well, we started out by saying mushrooms don't know they're illegal.
873
00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:50.639
They're out there and people are using them and they're
874
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:55.039
not hurting themselves. There will be people who misuse them,
875
00:50:55.079 --> 00:50:57.519
there's a candy bar that came out saying it was
876
00:50:57.519 --> 00:50:59.599
a microdose, and it was full of whatever it was.
877
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:04.159
People got ill. That'll happen. All the usual things will happen.
878
00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:07.039
It would be much easier on everyone if it were
879
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.960
basically discovered today and it didn't resemble a high dose,
880
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:14.039
then it would be simply a supplement and it would
881
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:16.960
be incredibly popular. A lot of therapists have told me
882
00:51:17.000 --> 00:51:21.400
that they are patients who are microdosing proceed more easily
883
00:51:21.519 --> 00:51:25.239
and faster through therapy than the ones who don't, and
884
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:29.079
they can see the difference. When a patient begins to microdose,
885
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:33.320
that therapy becomes easier and better for both parties. It
886
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:36.480
helps conditions that aren't helpable. You know, I have a
887
00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:40.039
beautiful case of cerebral palsy. The case of MS now
888
00:51:40.159 --> 00:51:43.400
doesn't take away the conditions, but it gives people a
889
00:51:43.480 --> 00:51:48.039
higher quality of life. I see that as the optimistic view,
890
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:52.920
and it will happen, probably depending on our election in
891
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:57.159
twenty twenty four, whether it happens faster in the US
892
00:51:57.360 --> 00:52:00.639
than abroad or vice versa. But when you have something
893
00:52:00.679 --> 00:52:04.320
that's used all over the world already, it doesn't take
894
00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:07.280
a big jump for it to be legal. The countries
895
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.679
in which it's legal, nothing's happened except they now get
896
00:52:10.679 --> 00:52:15.239
a lot of tourists coming for retreats music. So a cyb.
897
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:18.920
Well, thank you so much for this, doctor Pataman, illuminating
898
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:21.559
and fascinating as always. Thank you so much for your work.
899
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.000
We'll look forward to your new book coming out. It
900
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:27.199
comes out early next year, or it can be ordered now,
901
00:52:27.639 --> 00:52:29.280
uh huh, pre ordered now great?
902
00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:32.800
Oh commercial, and then your money isn't taken. You're in
903
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:35.960
a little pool and authors like people to buy it
904
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.719
in advance. You can read it on Amazon because basically,
905
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:42.400
then when it comes out, all of those it once
906
00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:46.239
happened at once and the newspaper says, wow, we're discovering microgosing.
907
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:49.599
So yeah, the book's out, will be out in February.
908
00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:54.360
The research continues and expands, this number of places now
909
00:52:54.400 --> 00:52:58.599
doing good research, and it will perhaps and this is
910
00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:01.880
now a scientist, not me saying, it may be that
911
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:06.239
microdosing will be looked at as the correct dose for psychedelics,
912
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:09.760
and that high doses, which are so complicated, may be
913
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.280
seen as a special case. That's one of the possibilities.
914
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:15.119
In one, of course, that I find delightful.
915
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:17.599
Well, thank you so much again, then, thank you for
916
00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:18.039
your work.
917
00:53:18.199 --> 00:53:21.079
Thanks very much, always nice to talk with you. Be well.
918
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:25.519
Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility Podcast. Remember,
919
00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:28.320
real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
920
00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:31.920
our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If
921
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:35.159
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
922
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:38.599
and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
923
00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:41.360
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you.
924
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:42.159
Take care