7. The New York Times' Taylor Lorenz

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Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest. Inspire your audience and grow your company on Pinterest with a free business account. Learn more at business.pinterest.com. It's time to Geek Out.
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[upbeat music] So hello and welcome to Geek Out with Matt Navarra, sponsored by Pinterest. I am Matt Navarra. And I'm Martin SFP Bryant, and we are back. Feels good to be back in the saddle.
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Indeed. We're back more in 2020 for loads of great episodes coming up, so we'll talk a little bit about that later, but thanks for everyone for all your support and the great, uh, comments you left about series one.
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It was a bit of a, of a throw it out and see what people thought thing, and it, it did better than we really thought. Mm-hmm. So it was great. Um, so stick with us for season two.
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We've got some great guests coming up, some well-known companies, uh, some reporters, all sorts of other people. So you can get in touch with us on Twitter, where you can find me as @MattNavarra. And I'm @MartinSFP.
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So Matt, what's the most interesting thing you've been up to since our last podcast? Oh my goodness. Um, what have I been doing?
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I've been doing mostly Christmassy things with my children, so I've been all over the country doing sort of things, meeting Santa. I think I've met him four times. [laughs] He very, seems like a very busy guy.
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Um, and then I'm working on a really interesting project, uh, for a, a news company which is coming out, so that's looking exciting as well. Um, and then I bought myself, uh, one of those boosted scooters, the Rev.
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Have you seen those? So like, I think they're- Okay... like $1,500. Um, but they go up to about 25 miles per hour. They have a 22-mile range, and it only takes three hours to charge them, and they are zippy.
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25 miles an hour on a scooter is, d- and it's, on paper it doesn't look that much, but I was quite surprised. So I've been zipping around on that, and my daughter's got a very much, a junior version- [laughs]... of that.
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Nice. Awesome. Um, well, uh, I've been, uh, working on another podcast. I've been cheating on you, Matt. I've been- Oh my God... working on another podcast. Yeah. Um, I created a, uh...
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If you're into startups and you're, maybe you're in a star tech startup, and, uh, you want to understand the world of venture capital, then, uh, my documentary series, Making Sense of VC, uh, you can find that, uh, in all good podcast apps.
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Uh, seek that out, and it's a, uh, a four-part documentary series, uh, that will tell you everything you need to know about tech investment.
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Now, our guest this week is a journalist who has really carved out a niche for herself in explaining young people's online culture to the rest of us.
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She's someone who I've, um, been a fan of for some time, and it's with great honor I welcome Taylor Lorenz from The New York Times. Welcome, Taylor. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a long time coming.
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We were just talking before we started recording about how we've known each other for, for probably about 10 years or more- Yeah... and we've never actually met, and you've moved about s- three or four jobs since then.
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[laughs] Yeah. So how is life at The New York Times? It's great. Everyone is so nice. It's, it's so great. And what, what is it, so what led you to move from where you were before?
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Was it just kind of, it's The New York Times, who could say no? [laughs] Or was there something specific about that? Yeah. Um, I loved The Atlantic. I, I truly, truly, truly loved it so much. Um, it was, it was so hard.
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I just, yeah, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to work with, um, my team.
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I, my boss, Cory Haikara, is, like, a legend and brilliant and amazing and, um, you know, I was competing with The Times for a lot of stories, and it just seemed like the right move.
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[laughs] Well, I'd, I'm really intrigued to hear a bit more about how you find some of your stories, which is one of my burning questions, but we'll come onto that in a moment.
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But first of all, let's, um, chat a little bit about what's been going on in the social media in terms of the news this week. Um, Martin, what have we been seeing this week? Yeah.
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The most interesting news I saw this week was from TechCrunch.
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They were saying that, uh, ByteDance and TikTok have created a deep fake maker that's actually finished and working but, uh, buried in the code of the Android version of TikTok.
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And the idea here is you take a photo of yourself, and then the app will add you into, uh, existing videos. So deep fake style, but starring you.
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And, uh, it's, it's quite a simple product, and simple and fun because you can't add yourself to any video. You know, you can't fake yourself being, uh, you know, standing next to the President of the USA or something.
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Uh, you know, there will be a very limited, uh, set of videos you can be involved in, so it's, it's designed as a fun product.
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But in the week where Facebook banned deep fake videos, uh, it maybe it raises some questions about, uh, whether we want to go down a road where reality and our perception of videos is, uh, uh, forever eroded and, uh, the idea of deep fakes is treated as a bit of entertainment.
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Um, whether that's a good idea or not, uh, Matt, what do you think? Yeah.
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Well, to me it just rings true that, uh, this year is gonna be yet another busy and, uh, challenging year for both the social platforms and, and politicians alike in terms of how they handle some of these problems with the social platforms and with the advancement and, uh, the ease of making some of these deep fakes as well.
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Um, but, uh, it's gonna be a busy PR year for, for these companies. Um, Taylor, you, you're a seasoned journalist in dealing with these sorts of, uh, issues and stories and things.
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What, what are your take on all this stuff to do with deep fakes and banning of them and things? I think it's just, uh, yeah, I think it's gonna be hard.
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Um, you know, I, it's, yeah, I just think it's gonna be a challenge for any of these companies.
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I think that, you know, these companies always have, s- you know, they, they come out and they say a lot regarding moderation or extremism or, you know, deep fakes, um, but then actually implementing it is, is always more difficult than they imagine, so.
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Do you think that, that, that these, um, deep fakes are something that we're gonna see, uh, become a big problem? Or do you think- Yeah...
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it's a lot of bluster in talking about it and actually, in reality, it's not gonna be a big deal? Do you think it is, is- You know- What, what's your thoughts? I do think it's gonna be a big deal.
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I think we already have seen a few videos be a big deal. I remember the Nancy Pelosi video that they kind of slowed down her speech.
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And so, yeah, I mean, I, I mean, that's not a deep fake per se, but I do think that there's not exactly, you know- Great media literacy, um, you know, in the United States and other places around the world, and so it could be a problem.
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Do you think that, uh, TikTok's, um, sort of relative, like, newness on the scene, if that is even a word, uh, the, the fact that they're new and they're sort of learning quickly, they've got a fresh kind of brand to present themselves is a good thing for them?
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Or do you think the fact that they are growing and having to learn really quickly about these things and tackle them is, is actually more of a challenge? How, which way do you see it for them?
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I think TikTok, I mean, TikTok is new in the US, but it's, it's, you know, owned by ByteDance, which has been around for a while.
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Um, I think, I don't think it's the fact that it's new that's working against them as much, um, because they seem to be pretty proactive compared to, like, Facebook and Twitter and YouTube.
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Um, but I do think that there's a lot of concern around the Chinese ownership.
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Um, I, you know, I've, I've, I've s- saw Casey Newton [laughs] as a journalist I follow on a lot of this stuff talking about how I think they are considering moving their headquarters potentially out of China, and I do think that, uh, the Chinese ownership is something that a lot of people are concerned about.
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Um- Yeah, no, I agree. Well, we've got some really interesting questions I hope about TikTok, because I know that you're a big, uh, fan of it, and also you've talked about it on some of your stories.
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So we'll, we'll come back to the discussion of TikTok i- in a little bit.
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Also in the news this week is about Snapchat, who have quietly acquired an AI, an AI factory, the company behind its new Cameos feature for I think it's $166 million.
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So this is kind of blurring the line between digital avatars and deepfakes again, and, uh, and Snapchat, really one of its kind of mojos for a long time has been these kind of filters and lenses and things.
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But now they too are coming up against some of these questions around the appropriateness of some of the features they've got there, and are these filters, um, um, kind of part of the problem.
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And Taylor, what, what's your take on this new development with Cameos and, and them acquiring this, uh, AI factory? Yeah, I mean, I think, I, I think it's a, it's, it's interesting.
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It'll be interesting to see what Snapchat does. Um, I mean, I, I don't, I don't think it's a problem. I, I, I would assume they're using it to develop more lenses.
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Um- Do you use Snapchat, uh, uh, at all nowadays, or have you kind of moved away from it? [laughs] 'Cause, uh, I know for me it's not my age bracket that really should be playing with it, but, um, what about yourself?
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Yeah, same. I mean, I, I do still use it. Um, a lot of people chat on that. I, I would say I use it as a messaging app, um, which is probably pretty close to how a lot of young people use it too.
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Um, but I'm not really on there all the time. I mean, all my friends abandoned it as soon as Instagram Stories came along. Uh, so, you know, but yeah.
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[laughs] Do you still see, do you still see it as being very much a niche for that younger generation, and, and it's always gonna be like that?
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Or do you see that there's an opportunity for Snapchat to be more for more people?
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Because at the moment, the one feature that a lot of people suggest they should do more with, and I think they are doing more with, is the Snap Maps.
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But I still get the feeling it's very hemmed in by its kind of people thinking of it as a very young person's app.
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Is, is that kind of how you see it progressing, or do you think they've got more opportunity they can broaden the appeal? Yeah. You know, I do think they could...
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I, I think it would be very hard to broaden the appeal now. I think they were in a stronger position a couple years ago. I don't think they really communicated,
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you know, all the different interesting ways to use the app, and most, you know, older users seemed to use it to publicly post stories, um, which, you know, was an amazing innovation, but Instagram cloned.
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So, um, you know, I, I don't, I think they're gonna have a really hard time scaling to older users. I don't think older users need another messaging platform. Um, but you know, they could just kind of stay small forever.
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They also are always doing weird things. You know, they constantly call theirself a camera company. I think they rolled out version three of their glasses.
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So I don't, you know, I, I don't really know sort of what their planning, plans are, um, and what they plan to move into.
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I don't think that they should be totally written off, um, but I don't think they're ever gonna scale to, like, a widespread open social network. Yeah.
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No, I would agree with that, and I think that, um, they seem to be making most of their efforts around the AR stuff and the lenses as well as the, the use of, um, glasses.
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Uh, um, which is what a lot of people are suggesting is the next kind of movement between here and getting to a virtual reality is the use of augmented reality, and I think we've heard that Apple and Facebook are making AR-type glasses, and Snapchat kind of in some ways you might argue are ahead of the curve in some ways with the fact they've had theirs for a while.
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But, uh, do, do you own a pair of these Snap Spectacles, or have you played around with them? What do you think of them? Oh my God. I own a pair of the version 1.0, the, like, original ones.
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Um, I haven't played around with any of the newer versions. Um, it's fine. I mean, as of...
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I, I, I believe as it's still the case with the most recent version, it's, it's basically you record video to post to Snapchat, and I, you know, I just didn't find it that useful. I can post to Snapchat with my phone.
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I don't really need it on my face. But it's a cool idea. Got you.
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Well, I, I think Snapchat, uh, have got a lot to offer in, in, in the next 12 months, and particularly around this and the, um, AR glasses stuff, and I'm, I'm keen to see which of the big tech companies come out first with a, a product that does seem like it could be a mass market AR glasses, whether it would be Apple or Facebook.
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But we'll, maybe we'll see later in the year. Maybe it's too early to say. We're not sure. Yeah.
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But, um, and another thing that I've, um, we saw in the news this week was also about, uh, Instagram and its growth for, um, older users.
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The number of older users that are using the platform and s- for the first time and, and adding to the total number of users on Instagram is somewhat flat-lining, and, uh, it seems from the kind of figures from, uh, one of the reports that that's gonna continue for the next few years.
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Um, what, what's your take on Instagram at the moment with its kind of, um, usage and, and the fact that it's got TikTok kind of snapping at its heels?
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Is, is Instagram got issues there, or is this kind of just part of the kind of way that people are moving from different platforms as they grow older into different generations?
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Yeah, I, I think, like, one of the reason that user growth slowed is, is because they kind of have reached a saturation point, um, a- among, you know, a lot of certain demographics.
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Um, I do think, though, they need to be worried. I mean, TikTok is an obvious competitor.
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Um, I think that Adam Mosseri even said, uh, on stage at this Instagram, uh, summit that they had a couple months ago that he considers, you know, ByteDance's product team to be the best in the world and a very worthy foe.
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Um, so, uh, you know, I do think that that type of stuff is, is something they need to be worried about, particularly the way that people use TikTok in other countries like India and Asia.
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Um, they use it in a little bit more of a Instagram way, where they use it to capture life moments. They use it to chat.
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Like, they use it to connect with people, um, whereas in the US it is very much more like an entertainment-driven plat- platform, um, where it's more like YouTube, I would say.
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Um, so yeah, I think they need to worry about that. I, I also just think that Instagram has just reached this big bloated point where there's so many features.
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There's this culture of sort of negativity around it, you know, people talking about, "Oh, I feel so bad that I... You know, like, I've been on Instagram for an hour. It just makes me feel worse."
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Um, so I think they need to, they need to kind of figure out how to stave some of that, um, but- Well, I would- it would be bad if I didn't ask you a bit about the Instagram likes discussion that's been going on- I think that's great-...
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at the moment last year... and fine. Yeah, sorry to interrupt. Um, I think removing likes is great and fine. It's literally, like, people aren't even gonna notice.
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I mean, first of all, you're still gonna be able to see who liked a photo. You're still gonna be able to see who liked your own photos. Um, and y- yeah, I mean, you're just not gonna see a number.
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I really don't think people are even gonna notice the change. Um, I mean, already people are, are spending less and less time in the feed and more and more time on stories, so stories have no public metrics. Um, so yeah.
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Well, yeah, I think, well, I, I also was gonna say that, um, that there's been a lot of misunderstanding from a lot of people, surprisingly from people that I would expect to have a fuller understanding of what this change is with the likes, that people not understanding of that the, it's not removing all likes and, and what they can and can't see once this change is made.
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So that was quite surprising to me, but, um, but I did see, uh, a story, uh, from, um, Adam Mosseri, uh, before Christmas where he posted saying that it...
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I think he was indicating that it's likely to be rolled out globally later, later in the year 2020, so it does seem like it's, it's here to stay, this change.
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So, uh, I think we'll wait and see what happens in the next few months with that one. We'll talk to Taylor some more shortly, but first Matt. Geek Out with Matt Navarra is sponsored by Pinterest.
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When Pinterest users, pinners, are looking for new ideas, they head to Pinterest first.
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Head to pinterest100.com, that's pinterest100.com, to see what will be big in 2020.
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So head to pinterest100.com to see the top trends for 2020. So you mentioned now you're back at The New York Times, Taylor.
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Tell us a little bit about sort of what your role is like day to day, what you get up to, and, and how is it different from your previous roles. It seems quite an exciting job to have.
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Yeah, it's honestly not very different than my previous role. I, I do a lot of sort of, you know, the same stories. I'm still a reporter. Um, but I have a great team.
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Um, I mean, I, I really just love having so many coworkers, um, you know, that, that sort of also write and care about the things that I cover, so that's been really cool to kind of collaborate, um, you know, with other people and, um, you know, my editor, uh, who's, like, extremely plugged in.
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I think he probably knows more about TikTok than I do.
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[laughs] Well, one of the things that we, um, uh, I think a lot of people know you for or kind of think of when they hear the name Taylor Lorenz is that you, you come out of left field with these really fascinating articles about int- what internet culture and how people are using the products like Instagram and TikTok in ways that maybe we didn't realize people were using it, ways maybe they weren't first intended to.
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And I just wonder, without giving away your secrets or anything like that, how do you even come up with these story ideas? What triggers you to think there's a story there, and, and where do they come from?
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Yeah, that's a really good question.
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Um, I s- you know, I, I worked in social media for so long, um, [laughs] that I feel as a social media editor and head of social media at various media companies, and I feel like it, um, definitely helped me realize, like, what's a story and what's not, what's not.
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Um, you know, I will sort of see something going on and be like, "Oh, that would make a great story," or like, "Oh, that could be a good headline." Um, but at the same time, I'm also really bad at identifying stories.
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I think sometimes I really don't- Like, m- like, I, I really need help with, like, an angle. It's really valuable for me to have other people around that I can brainstorm with on a day-to-day basis.
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A lot of times I'll be like, "Oh, I'm noticing this," or, "I feel like everybody's doing this now, but I just need somebody to kind of like bounce ideas off of and, um, to, to sort of help articulate the idea."
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Um, so in that sense I'm so grateful to my coworkers, um, 'cause they do that with me on a daily basis.
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Which of the stories that you've covered have you done that you've found the most i- uh, the most surprising to you when you've been researching it or when you discovered it? Which, which of all of the things?
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'Cause like, for example, you did something about Goog- um, the use of Google Docs by, uh, teenagers, and you've done things about how Instagram was being used for k- like sort of staging parties and getting people to come to parties and things.
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Out of all of those stories in recent years, is there one that stands out to you that was quite fascinating to dis- to discover? Oh my God, it's so funny.
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I, after I write a story I feel like I black out or something and I can't remember what I wrote about, like, three weeks ago. Um, [laughs]
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I actually totally forgot that I wrote that Google Docs story, uh, for some reason. Um, that was a funny one too because I, I felt like everybody knew that.
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I mean, I remember that being a thing a while ago, um, even, like, as, uh, a couple years ago, so I kind of did it as just because I wanted to write a post.
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And, um, yeah, so it was, was interesting to kind of read other people's reactions to it. Um, I would say the stories that I love to do are, um, are usually the offbeat ones that don't have anything to do with teenagers.
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Um, I wrote a story about how Twitter became the number one platform for nudists and the nudism community.
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[laughs] Um, [laughs] and sort of it was a conversation about, um, you know, terms of service and what kind of communities different terms of service facilitate. Um, and that was one of my favorite stories.
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Uh, there's like a f- a few others like that. I wrote about how, um, pineapples became this powerful symbol and kind of a meme in the IVF world, um, women undergoing in vitro fertilization and infertility treatment.
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Um, that was another fav- favorite story that I wrote. Uh, [laughs] so yeah, it's kind of just things that... I, I guess my favorite stories are ones that, um, I, I'm genuinely surprised by and, um,
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feel like are interesting.
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[laughs] Well, I, uh, for those that don't know what the Google Docs story was, I should say this is a, where it was teenagers using them in the classroom and kind of a way to kind of communicate kind of behind the teacher's back about tests and things in the background.
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But all of the stories that we mentioned today, we'll, we'll stick the links in the description of the podcast so you can go and have a read of them yourself if you haven't, um, already.
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One thing about your, your stories, Taylor, is I often see people say, uh, main- mainly kind of older adults say, "Oh, I didn't know about this at all." W- uh, why do you think internet culture is so poorly covered?
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Do you think tech journalists are generally too old? [laughs] No, I actually disagree, and I don't think age has anything to do with it.
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When I think about the reporters that I look up to who are phenomenal, um, you know, internet culture reporters, it's a lot of women, um, as, uh, who are all moms who are all much older than me.
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So, um, you know, I, I mean, I don't have to be like they're much older, but I mean definitely in the generation above me.
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Um, I mean, Katie Rossman, who I sit across from at The Times is absolutely legendary, um, and has covered, you know, a ton of just incredible internet stories.
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She's the one that found the, uh, there was this viral bikini, and she found the original woman in Brazil who designed it on this beach. It's insane some of her stories.
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Um, Julie Jargon at The Wall Street Journal, um, Katie Notopoulos at Buzzfeed. I mean, just all of these people that I look up to are older than me. So, [laughs] uh, so I don't think age has anything to do with it.
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Um, but I do think that, uh, you know, in order to cover the world that I cover and, um, just like any beat, you, you really need resources and you really need to kind of allow people to d- get, dedicate time to it.
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Um, and so sometimes, you know, uh, not every news organization has had that I think until recently. I know that because I couldn't get a job doing this a few years ago as a, as a full-time reporter.
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It was always kind of hard. I think, um, you know, a lot of the things I cover were still not h- you know, hitting mainstream culture in the same way.
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Um, so, uh, it's also funny because recently people associate everything I do with teenagers, and that's been an interesting change, um, because, you know, five years ago when I was, like, writing about YouTubers or caring about Instagram influencers and stuff like that, um, it, you know, it was very much still associated with millennials.
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So that's been an interesting, um, shift that's happened. I think now definitely in the past, like, two years, everyone is like, "Okay, what are the teens doing?" Like, "What's this next generation up to?"
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So I think people are staffing more reporters. There's this amazing young reporter at, named Amanda Perelli at Business Insider who I think has only been reporting for, like, a year and a half.
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Um, and she, I guess she's been a full-time reporter just since last year. Um, but she covers the same stuff I do and is absolutely phenomenal and... So I think you can be any age.
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[laughs] So why do you think TikTok has taken such a hold of, of kind of people's, uh, interest and excitement and, and use of social media?
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'Cause th- there could be an argument to say that TikTok spent billions of pounds for a sustained period to get people to be aware of it and to download it and to know it exists.
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Um, and there's also arguments about kind of the, it, it was something that Instagram's always been known as the polished and kind of perfected version of everybody's social lives, real lives.
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Um, and TikTok's that kind of more quirky, fun, kind of doesn't have to be perfect kind of style of things. But, you know, is it more than that?
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Is there something else that's kind of really core to why TikTok has taken off in the way it has? I mean, I think the product is so vastly different than Instagram.
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I mean, Instagram also has been moving away from a more polished look. Um, it's, it's a little bit harder to, like, turn a giant cruise ship, you know? [laughs] Like, which I consider Instagram.
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It's like this big behemoth. Um, so, you know, even though, uh, people, um... I wrote a big piece last year on, like, the end of the Instagram aesthetic and kind of how people want this messier look. Um, you know-
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That, that stuff performs better on Instagram now. Um, but TikTok is just a very unique, very compelling product that was hugely popular around the world. So I, you know, ByteDance had time to kind of refine it.
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Um, ByteDance has one of the best product teams in the world. So, yes, you know, they spent a huge amount of money, um, acquiring users in the US, and at the time I don't think that their retention rate was super high.
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Um, you know, when I saw people talking about it last year, um, but I do think that, that, you know, it, it's, it's a, it's an interesting product that fills a very specific need.
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A lot of people talk about the, the, the algorithm.
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The algorithm, the algorithm is it's just something about it that seems to serve up things better in a more timely way in a very short space of you at first using the app. Uh, do, do you see that when you've been- Yes...
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using it or when you first started using it? I first started using it, I think, the first week they announced it, so there was really nothing on it except old people's m- old Musical.lys.
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[laughs] It was a weird time on TikTok. Um, but yeah. I mean, I think the, the For You algorithm is so unique.
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I think also the fact that it opens on the For You page, um, and just that the For You page is a primary experience on the app as opposed to something like the Instagram Explore page, which is a secondary experience for a lot of people, and I don't think tailored as well to their interests.
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Um, you know, I, I think, yeah, I think also just the fact that it opens on full-screen video is very engaging. Um, you, you know, you kind of wanna pay attention, um, and watch another video if that one was funny.
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Uh, so yeah. I, I just think that, that they're, they're very advanced and adept in that way. I notice that the comment communities on the TikToks are also thriving.
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Um, I mean, there's just a lot of commentary and discussion and fights and, you know, that, that happens on Instagram, too, but I, I feel like maybe it's just 'cause the user base skews more very young on TikTok.
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Um, the comments are a draw, too, especially for a lot of young people. Now, wherever audiences go, marketers are quick to follow. How do you think TikTok's going to evolve as a marketing channel in 2020?
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I mean, I think there's been a lot of big, successful campaigns.
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Um, you know, I can't think of Chipotle without thinking of the Chipotle Lid Flip challenge, which is [laughs] like this stupid TikTok trend that they totally bought. Uh, and they, like, announced their channel.
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They had, like, David Dobrik do it. I don't know what it is, but just something about watching so many of those videos on TikTok, like, broke into my brain, so congrats to them, I guess, on that.
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Uh, you know, I do think that there's other s- successful campaigns that have run.
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I would say TikTok is kind of like YouTube in a way where I think probably the place for brands is, um, you know, through these paid, paid channels and, like, buying, you know, sponsoring videos, um,
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you know, sponsoring hashtags, things like that, as opposed to setting up an account and posting every day, you know?
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Um, like, if you run social media for Miracle-Whip or something, um, you don't necessarily need to start a TikTok and create content every day. Uh, but you could buy a hashtag to announce the launch- [laughs]...
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of a new product, and it might be successful.
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Well, the question that I get asked quite a lot by, um, social media managers around the world is things like, you know, should I have a TikTok strategy by now, and is it gonna be here in a year or two's time, and, you know, w- w- should I just wait?
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You know, what, what, what would you be saying?
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You've, you know, you've got experience working for a, a news publisher, and you know what the world is like when you're trying to think which platforms should we be on, where should we focus our energies.
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What would you be sort of doing if you were now working for a publisher or any brand and thinking about TikTok? If I... Yeah. I think if I was working...
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And I did work in the branded world for a long time before I got into journalism. I'm familiar with those types of conversations. Um, I mean, I, I would say, um, you know, I would say with TikTok I, I think we don't...
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You're right in the sense that it, it's only a year old. It's still a young platform, but it's a highly engaged platform.
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Um, and, you know, at, at least when I talk to marketers around VidCon last year, which was, at this point, quite a while ago, six months ago, but, um, it was much cheaper than activations on other places.
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So I think, you know, if you're getting a good deal [laughs] um, and it makes sense, like, it's a very highly engaged, highly young audience there. Um, so, you know, is it worthwhile? It could be.
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It totally depends on your goals and the campaign.
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Uh, I would say, like, setting up a profile on there, um, and investing in creating content the way that a lot of brands have done on Twitter, for instance, or Instagram, is not necessary.
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Um, you know, there are a lot of ad units on TikTok. Um, there's interstitial ads. There's, like I said, sponsored videos, sponsored hashtags.
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Um, that's really the place, the better, uh, place for brands, I think, than trying to set up an account and waste enormous resources trying to go viral.
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[laughs] Is, do you think Tik- TikTok influencers or TikTok stars are now s- you know, surpassing the kind of excitement and interest that we had for, for many years and still to this day in terms of YouTubers?
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Is that, is TikTok the new YouTuber kinda community, or do you think they can coexist equally and it's, you know, they, they're separate things? Uh, how do you see that? Yeah. I think they, they can totally coexist.
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I mean, a lot of people obviously compare TikTok to Vine, which is, like, my pet peeve, but it is sort of true in, in the sense that it's a launching pad, um, you know, for fame, and, um, it introduces people to new personalities, like Charli D'Amelio, for instance, one of the [laughs] fastest-growing girls on the, uh, p- people on the app ever.
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Um, she's just a 15-year-old girl. Um, so, you know, it introduces new personalities in that way. Um, uh, th... in terms of monetization, I... it's not there yet.
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You know, YouTube is still the gold standard because you can monetize.
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Um, but that said, a lot of TikTokers are essentially going onto TikTok to gain a big following and then push those followers over to a YouTube channel.
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So, um, I think it's created- Sort of a new pathway to gaining a, a large audience quickly And my last question about TikTok I also wanted to touch on is that do you think that this year, um, is gonna be a year for re- a renaissance of the short-form video?
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Because we- you, you mentioned Vine and the comparisons that some make rightly or wrongly to, to TikTok for v- Vine, and the creators of Vine are imminently gonna release Byte, which I'm on the beta test for.
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I'm really enjoying using. Um- Oh, really? I wanna use it. It's really good. It's really slick. It's smooth. You can, you can just see they're taking their time, they're, they're putting the pieces together.
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They're taking the best bits of what people expect from a s- from a, a video platform like this, and then putting their own spin on it, and it, it looks really slick.
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Um, and then we've also got Firework, which was talked about last year 'cause there was a rumor that Google were gonna acquire it or something, wasn't there?
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But I just wonder what, what's your view for the, going for the next 12 months?
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Are, are we suddenly gonna see now an explosion of short-form video apps or just that short-form video will be a flavor of the year or, or not? Um, I think we've been moving towards short-form video for a while.
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I mean, um, Stories is obviously a short-form video format in a way. Um, and Instagram offers slightly short-form video, you know, in a sense that you can post on the feed.
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Um, so I think like the, oh my God, not to use this word, but, like, pivot to video, yeah- [laughs]... in terms of, in, in terms of like, um, you know, what users want in, uh, to create, uh, is, is true.
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Um, I, I, you know, with Byte, I, I'm interested to see. I think anyone is gonna have a extremely hard time competing with, uh, TikTok.
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I mean, ultimately Facebook, um, and Google have a monopoly in this country [laughs] on kind of social stuff. Um, it's hard for even a company like Snapchat, which got in early, to compete with them.
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I think for anyone to kind of come in with a cool new short-form video app and try to compete with Facebook is, is hard because they'll just buy them out or clone them or try to kill them in some way.
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Um, so, so that's challenging. I, I want Byte to do well. I, I really love Dom on Twitter, um, who I think is like one of the creators or the- Yeah, that's right... main creator.
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Yeah, so you know, I want it to do well, but I think they don't have a billion dollars to spend in user acquisition. Um- But Facebook has got billions of dollars. Right.
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And their, their efforts at this space has been- Are so bad... pretty lame, like Lasso, who's been- [laughs] Yeah, Las- I say Lasso. That's how we say it in America, but- [laughs] Yeah, I think that's right.
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Well, I, I played with Lasso- We say Lasso and beta test, so, uh, we're rebels. [laughs] Well, exactly.
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But I, I played with them, Lasso, and then, and a few other apps and, and but Facebook's efforts, it always just seems literally- So bad...
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like they're grabbing a load of app ideas, throwing them at the wall, seeing which sticks, and then moving on.
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But they don't stick very often, so I don't know what your thoughts, why is Facebook finding it so hard to create a competitor to a, a TikTok, a younger person's cool app?
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Well, I mean, it's the problem that all these big tech companies have is that it's very hard to innovate when you are a big legacy massive, uh, tech conglomerate. It's just very hard to, to innovate.
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Um, that's usually innovation and cool new things do not come from, um, giant companies like that. I think they also just, you know, uh, I, I think that they probably just need to focus on it in a, in a different way.
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Um, I, you know, I really don't know. I don't know. I don't really report on, like, cor- the corporate stuff at Facebook, so I don't know the whole structure.
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There are a lot of amazing creative product people at Facebook. Um, so it is surprising, but, you know, I don't know. I also think that China has a lot of, um,
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different, you know, I've never been to China, but I do think that the, um, the apps and technology there are, you know, slightly different than ours, and I think that with, um, you know, with ByteDance, they, they've found sort of like a worthy competitor, um, and, and that, that, you know, is doing things slightly differently, which seems very innovative.
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I, the Lasso was so bad. I mean, it was literally just a rip-off, and they even paid TikTokers to promote Lasso, and it didn't- Oh, dear... do well, so. Jeez, well, we talked- They missed the culture on it, too.
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Like, they launched Lasso...
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The part of the reason that TikTok was so compelling is because it had launched in all of these, you know, it had been out for quite a while in other areas of the world, so there was all this, like, backlog of hilarious content on there from Asia or, you know, like places in India or Turkey or whatever.
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Um, Lasso, there was just, like, nothing on there. Well, I'm hoping that they come up with something interesting for this space in the year ahead for Facebook.
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But we'll, I'm, I'm not gonna, gonna hold out for it 'cause it's not been shown so far, but- Yeah.
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[laughs] But with all of these apps, though, there's, there's, uh, there's the talk of influencers, and I think Martin you were gonna ask a, a couple of questions around that 'cause it's quite an interesting space again because it's just so huge at the moment.
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Yeah, so you've got influencers. You've got micro-influencers, even nano-influencers.
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Uh, but, uh, there's maybe some dispute as to just how effective influencers can be when it comes to advertising, and some people have been saying that maybe we'll see the influencer bubble, if there is such a thing, bursting.
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Uh, what do you make of that, Taylor? I think that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Um, [laughs] [laughs] I, I really, I, I don't know what... Pe- people just, like, love to hate on influencers.
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Um, I also think it's a complete misunderstanding of, like, of influencers. Um, I do think that there will be a correction in the sense... I mean, there has been, right? Like, over the past year.
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Um, you know, I think a lot of marketers were like in 2017, 2018, like, "Ooh, influencers." Like, "Let's pay this person with a million followers to, you know, talk about my product."
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Um, and I think that they're, you know, realizing that that's not always very fruitful. But I th- so I do think that, you know, people are gonna be smarter about their campaigns.
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Um, but often that just means they're directing their money into other forms of influencer marketing. So, um, you know, I, yeah, I don't think it's going away.
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I think that sort of influence, we live in an attention economy, and people who can, can leverage that attention, um- Are, are in a very strong position. So yeah.
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Uh, you also see a lot more influencers moving away from ads as a monetization strategy.
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I think they realized how volatile ad deals can be, and so a lot more influencers now are launching their own product lines, um, and, you know, moving towards things like t- subscriptions or, um, podcasts or other things that they can make more money off of directly.
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Do you think that this is the year that we're gonna see a, a proper clamping down of, um, influencer marketing and, and, and the rules and regs around it in, in, in the US- [laughs]... or abroad- No...
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or do you think it's gonna drag its heels again? No, I don't think the regulators have even the slightest idea how these people- [laughs]... monetize or how their deals are structured. Um, so no.
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[laughs] I mean, they haven't even enforced the rules that they put in place a couple years ago.
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Well, what must it feel like for someone, for someone who lives in the US and watches the stuff that's going on in, in the political sphere around regulation, and we had those famously, those hearings with Mark Zuckerberg.
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And, and, uh, I've said this a couple of times in, I think in this podcast exactly, but where one of the senators was saying, "Oh, when I email on WhatsApp," blah, blah, blah.
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And then people around the world are just kind of collectively putting their hands on the, their eyes and thinking, "What are they... These people have no idea."
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Is that kind of how you view what the regulators are like, or do you think there are some smart people in there that are able and, and is capable of regulating this industry? Hmm. I think there's smart people.
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I don't know if they're capable of regulating this industry. It's evolving so fast. Um, I hope that they are.
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I think that unfortunately with politics, so this is why I don't cover politics [laughs] is it just, it's all so performative and fake, and they want to get their soundbite for the news. And, um,
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yeah, I'm skeptical as, as to whether, you know, there'll be any kind of real regulation efforts. I mean, I definitely think there will be regulation around some of the big tech companies.
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I, I just think with influencer stuff, it's probably so far down on their list, you know? These congresspeople are worried about bigger things, like, or they should be, right?
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Like, you know, misinformation in our elections and stuff like that, not whether, like, you know, some influencer is selling fit tea. Um, but they should. They should worry.
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I mean, there's a huge, th- there's huge problems with the lack of regulation on Instagram right now, so. Well, I'm gonna shoehorn a quick political question in here while we have the, the moment.
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[laughs] I, I, in terms of, like, you know, seeing the likes of Donald Trump and the way he's using, uh, Twitter and social media at the moment with the stuff that's going on in Iran, and, uh, and then, then you look at Facebook in terms of the, what their view is on what they will allow and not allow for politicians and, and their view.
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You know, what, what, what, what do you make of all of this stuff? Do you think that politicians should be reined in, they shouldn't be doing some of the stuff that they're doing on social media?
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Do you think that Facebook and other platforms should be stricter, harsher with some of their rules around what they allow and not allow? What, just what's your general view on all of this stuff?
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Oh my God, I don't follow any politicians on the internet. I've s- hopefully successfully blocked all politics from my feed. I just read The New York Times in the morning, and I,
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I don't even keep up with a lot of that sort of political stuff just because it's not relevant to my beat, and I'd rather just kind of [laughs] like read about it at the end of the day like a lot of people.
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Um, but I do think that these companies have failed to moderate their platforms. I mean, you mentioned Twitter. Um, Twitter has repeatedly failed to moderate its platform and get a handle on its community.
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I mean, abuse is rampant. Misinformation is rampant. Um, I mean, it, Facebook, uh, you know, also I, I think has, has struggled to moderate. It, I mean, and taken steps to actively not moderate.
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[laughs] Uh, so you know, I hope that, um, you know, hope that these companies can kind of figure that out and take it more seriously in, in this year.
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Um- Do you think it's, um, that sometimes though that the tech companies are, just playing devil's advocate here, are, 'cause they're, they're beasted all the time by the different p- newspapers around the world and, um, media publishers about what they're not doing or they should've done differently and should've done better.
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But with social media, there's a huge part that's played by us, the users, and what we deem acceptable or we're happy and comfortable doing or not doing, which impacts other people in terms of harassment and abuse and all that toxicity.
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Yeah. I mean, it- There's a role for us to play in that as well, isn't there?
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Well, obviously there's bad actors, and there's all these people, you know, uh, millions of people who are bad actors around the world, right, that will abuse these platforms.
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Um, but I'm not very sympathetic to these companies. You know, they are very much capable of moderating, you know, moderating their platforms and fixing this experience.
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Um, and you know, they've, they've just sort of not done that. Um, so I, yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't really wanna give them too much credit, um, 'cause I'm on Twitter every day, and I see the experience.
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I think that, you know, I, what probably will make them, um, ultimately invest more in, in those areas, um, is, is user backlash.
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So I mean, just the fact that Twitter won't ever scale, I think, um, much larger than it is now because, y- you know, unless they more proactively deal with harassment issues.
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Um, because it's a terrible place to be for users, you know?
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Um, and, and so yeah, I, I think also people, you know, the backlash against Facebook, holding them accountable, like, in, in sort of the public, court of public opinion, I, I do think that that has an impact on, um, the stuff they prioritize.
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But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, you're never gonna eliminate negativity from these platforms, but I do think it's, um, it's important to kind of set the culture and the tone and, um, you know, go after some of these bad actors.
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I, I will give Instagram some credit. I wrote, um, a huge story about Instagram harassment, uh, like almost a year and a half ago. It was right before Mosseri took over.
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And, um, it actually, I, I will say, like, it, harassment is still rampant on Instagram, but I do think that he has kind- Made a proactive effort to try to, um, you know, staunch some of it, um, you know, just by rolling out comment filters and the ability to put restrict on so somebody doesn't know that they're blocked and things like that.
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Um, we just need more of that. [laughs] Ju- just building on what you were saying there, it's users that makes Twitter- No... particularly, uh, bad rather than design decisions- You-...
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around the, around the- Oh, oh my gosh. Wait. Well, there's a- I think- Fight. Fight it. Come on...
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last night, la- last night, um, uh, as we record this, when the, um, when Iran was hitting the, uh, the bases with the US troops in, I hate to think what might have happened by the time we publish this podcast, but, um, the hysteria among users for, d- during that time made it unbearable.
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It was impossible to find any news on there because there was so much made-up rubbish and people talking about World War III and people talking about nuclear weapons and, uh, going really over the top on this stuff.
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And when I actually woke up in the morning, 'cause it was, it was about 2:00 in the morning when this was really happening, uh, you know, after midnight, um, and I, I was staying awake, and it was keeping me awake, keeping me really anxious.
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And in the morning when I finally got some sleep and I woke up, so little had actually happened in terms of news, and it had been built out of all proportion by users. Oh my God. Wait. I'm sorry to interject.
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It is not users. It is a product problem. The fact that you're encouraging that k- type of, uh, an, you know, annoying behavior on the app, that is a product problem.
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Like, the product, it, you know, facilitates different behavior, um, you know, on, on a, on a certain platform.
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So i- you know, the product is incentivizing that, that type of annoying use of Twitter, um, where it is just kind of out for these quick hits. You're out for retweets. You're trying to spread misinformation.
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That is a pr- those are product design decisions that- Oh, yeah. True... lead to that type of behavior, and the, it's the lack of moderation that leads to that type of behavior.
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So it- It's also on the users to realize that that's bad behavior and it's- You know what?... not good for people [laughs] to- Oh my God. No, it is not. Humans are...
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I mean, there are millions of humans on the planet and, you know, there will always be bad, annoying people. The, people are never going to police themselves.
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Um, and it is up to, you know, product designers to, to build certain features that can kind of rein in certain, you know, bad actors or encourage different types of discussion or thought, and Twitter just rewards the worst of the worst.
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So- In terms of that, Taylor, though- Yeah... so do you have... Is, in your mind, are there particular features or things that you, you think that Twitter could be doing or should have done- Yes...
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and what, what are those things? 'Cause they listen to this show. They've been on this show, and they're coming on it again maybe, maybe this season. So what do you think? [laughs] Oh, good. I have a lot of thoughts.
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[laughs] I mean, I tweet about this a lot. Um, I, I...
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Look, Twitter, I don't know what's going on with their product team, but they spend all their time, like, fiddling, you know, doing these, like, tiny, stupid changes like redoing threads and stuff and making it harder to find conversations.
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Meanwhile, um, you know, they, they need to roll out more protection measures for users. So I think that things like, you know, restricting the replies on certain tweets from being shown publicly are good.
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I think that they absolutely need to roll out better protections for when people are being brigaded and harassed on a mass level.
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I think the whole retweet as the primary sort of way to spread information on Twitter is, is bad. Um, it encourages people to kind of just, you know, say things that, that will get them amplification over everything.
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Um, so yeah. I mean, I, I think that they need to have ways to engage in a smaller, closed community on Twitter. Right now you have default public, default private.
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Um, I think that they need, yeah, they, they need to change that.
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They need to make it so that there, there's, it's a safer experience to engage and it's not just this big one open forum where they're rewarding the worst of the worst. I would, I would guess that, that, they, they...
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not their comeback, but what maybe others would say to that is that their product is so, so built around a, um, you know, one or the other, the binary of the two, that it would make it very hard or that it's gonna be difficult to make a product or change Twitter to have kind of some semi-private or forums or rooms- Um-...
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or anything else. Would you say that's, that's a fair- Yeah. No. I mean, it's gonna be difficult. Well, congrats. They're, like, a million zillion, you know...
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They, they're a massive tech conglomerate with, with tons of resources. So, you know, it's your own product. You need to, to fix it.
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Um, and, you know, you need to prioritize things like user safety and user experience, um, especially for, for, you know, marginalized people.
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I think that the, the leadership at Twitter is overwhelmingly male and, um, you know, I, that's, uh, the, I think that they would do well to hear from some of the people that suffer, um, you know, the worst harassment.
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Um, there's ama- you know, amazing, uh, product managers, male and female. Um, but the point is, is you wanna hear from your, you know, marginalized communities that you want on your platform.
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You don't want only the white supremacists and the bad actors making bad faith arguments. So yeah. I, I don't know. I, yeah.
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S- so just to sum up- For them, they're a big- You're not, you're not a fan of Twitter right now. That's what you're saying, I think. [laughs] That's fair to say. Well, no.
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I think it, I think Taylor makes some really, um, good points. You know, I think- I love... I mean, I, I, Twitter is amazing. Like, Twitter's responsible for a lot of my... I get story ideas there.
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It's an amazingly valuable platform. It just, it hurts me as a, as somebody who really does, like, love tech, um, to, to see the product atrophy the way that it has. No.
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I, I think that your view is, is one shared by many, many people, and I've heard similar comments from others.
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So, um, I think, uh, w- well, we, we can hope that this year is a, a year of, uh, of innovation from, from Twitter because it's- Yeah. And there's a lot of amazing people there. There's a lot- Yeah...
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of amazing people there. So I, you know, fingers crossed. I, fingers crossed indeed. And I think that we've got... We're kind of coming up to the time when we're gonna have to let Taylor go.
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But, um, I think we've got a couple of quick questions. Martin, you had one for us, and I think I've got one last one I wanna squeeze in as well. Obviously we're, we're at the start of a, a brand new year.
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Um, what's exciting you most about, uh, social media in 2020? You know, I was asked to do a bunch of predictions at the end of 2019 and, um, I was just like, "I don't have any predictions.
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I just wait till it happens and then I report on it." [laughs]That is the, that is the intellectually honest way of doing it- [laughs]... rather than most journalists who will say, "Oh, predictions.
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Okay, I'll just make up- [laughs]... a bunch of things very quickly based on some ideas I had in a bar the other night with some friends" [laughs] And, uh, and then none of them happen.
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But the good thing is at least nobody ever reads those articles after- Yes, that's true [laughs]... after, after January. That's true.
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Well, one of the things I just wanted to final- wrap up with really is the, um, the community that I sort of hang around in online i- is built around social media managers, and my first role in social media, like many, is i- as a social media manager.
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And I think that you've had experiences with s- various roles like that as well. Um, I wonder, do you think being a social media manager in 2020 is a much harder job than it was, say, 10 years ago?
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And, and also what, what... You know, is it a difficult job? Is it an easy job?
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'Cause I think people get a h- um, social media managers get a hard, um, rap some of the time, and then people mock some of the job work that they do. What's your view on social media managers in 2020? Okay.
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First of all, it's such a harder job now than it was in 2009. I remember, I, I... It, it is impossible to describe.
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I mean, sometimes I think that I wouldn't get a job as a social media manager today because you have to know so much stuff. I mean, when I started, um, as a social media manager, it was, you know, 2010.
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Facebook had just added brand pages. I think that was, like, the big thing.
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And I remember, I mean, I ran a bunch of social accounts for big Fortune 500 clients at this ad agency, and, um, uh, companies just wanted to say that they had a Facebook page, say that they had a Tumblr.
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I mean, Twitter was still, like, so new. A lot of them didn't even really care about Twitter that much, even as far back in 2012. Um, and so, you know, I honestly, the analytics were not a big thing.
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A lot of the analytics stuff was not built in. Um, you know, Facebook Insights hadn't rolled out in a meaningful way for pages. Um, yeah, so there was just no accountability.
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[laughs] Like, I just think back to a lot of the campaigns we did, and I'm just like, "That bombed", but the client didn't really know better at the time. Now I think clients know better.
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I mean, clients always think that they know better. [laughs] Yeah. Uh, and bosses always think that they know, you know, how Facebook works. But I think it's, it's so hard now.
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Um, there's so many different, uh, you know, options, um, and, and sort of, like, competing forces. Um, so, and, and there's so many... There's just a lot more analytics too, so which is great.
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Um, it's good for social media managers, but, um, it also makes things harder. I think that, um, you know, there's a lot more expectations.
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People have seen other people's big campaigns on social media, and I know a lot of people want that. Um, you know, you have a lot of brands being like, "We need a Twitter account like Denny's or whatever."
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Um, you know, when I was doing social media, there weren't those big wins. It was pre-Oreo moment or whatever at the Super Bowl. Like, real-time marketing was barely a thing.
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So, um, yeah, so I do think it's, it's different and harder. Um- Well- What was the second part? Okay...
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no, and I think what that feeds into, what I was gonna sum up with was that, um, I put a, a tweet out, um, yesterday, uh, which was, uh, a day f- um, which was about s- social media managers and what, what it is, i- it impacts its l- um, their lives.
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How does social media, uh, being a social media manager affect their lives? Oh. [laughs] And it had a phenomenal amount of response, but the overwhelming was, "What do you mean affect my life outside of work?
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What life outside of work?" Because it's just constant, endless streams of being needing to be on the pulse checking things. And I- Yeah... I, I can't imagine.
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You know, 10 years ago when I first started doing social media, I, even then it was a bit like that. I can't imagine now as a, a social media manager- Same... what it's like. It's just crazy. Same. It's crazy.
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It's crazy. I mean, it's so stressful, and it is a very thankless job. I mean, a lot, they don't... It, it's, yeah, people don't give it credit. I think smart people give it credit.
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Um, I think smart people understand and, and people that are, like, with it. But I do think, you know, it's an... Social media's still a relatively new platform. It, it's sort of a new thing.
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I mean, it's definitely in the past decade that it's really exploded. So, um, yeah, so people, you know, people need to learn. There's a lot of marketers that just don't get it yet.
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Well, and I, I think, uh, to f- finish up on this, I think my s- um, stake on this is that I would never get a social media manager job, um, if it was 10 years, um, like, if I was doing it now and I was applying for a job as a fresh going into it, the skills that you need in terms of video editing and journalistic kind of s- sort of sense for what people's interest in content is and the different platforms and analytics, it, it just goes on and on and on.
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I don't think I would ever have gotten a job, so, uh- I- I got in early... I feel that way. Same. Same. I feel that way every day.
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I mean, I, like, think back to, um, you know, what I considered, like, a really s- I was so into Tumblr, and, like, I think back to, like, what I considered a really viral Tumblr, and it was like 2,000 followers or 5,000 followers or 10,000 followers.
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And that was like, oh my God, wow, this is huge.
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And now, like, I mean, every 13-year-old has, like, m- you know, scaled, like, 19 different Instagram accounts to a million and sold Twitter ads, and it's just like, it's crazy.
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And like you said, they're expert video editors, photographers. Like, it's, it's so much harder now. So yeah, it's a really hard job, and, um, anyone who does it in 2019 deserves a raise.
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[laughs] Well, I think, uh, if you know- Yeah... a social media manager, buy them a beer or three. They deserve it is what we're saying here.
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Um, but Taylor, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you here and chat to us.
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I've been really excited to, to get you onto the show, and hopefully we will finally meet face to face in real life, not in this kind of virtual world- Yes... soon.
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Where can people find you online, or where would you like to push people to to, uh, see some of your stuff? Follow me on Instagram or Twitter, if you must. Um, I am, I'm just @taylorlorenz, so just my name.
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Thank you so much. And we'll stick a couple of links to some of the stories of Taylor's that we talked about earlier in the show in the podcast description. But thank you so much for joining us, Taylor.
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Yeah, thank you for having me. It's time now for quick hits.
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Here's Matt with a bunch of tests and updates from social media companies that might not all be wondrously world-changing, but they're certainly worth your time.
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I, every time I get these, uh, little thes- I get my thesaurus out and I get these little, um, alliterations in, like wonderfully world-changing and worth your time, and you always groan, Matt. I...
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Well, to, to be honest, I'm just glad you're not writing them for me 'cause I would never get them out. [laughs] We'd be here recording it again, and again, and again. Um, yeah, so a couple of quick things.
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So Twitter is killing audience insight page from January 30th.
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So this is a page that was if you logged into the analytics.twitter.com, and you had a tab on your profile there for audience, uh, analytics and insights, and they're getting rid of that.
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And I think they're trying to say that there's, um, you'll find this data and find these insights in other areas of Twitter. So that's coming to an end on January 30th.
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Uh, WhatsApp's testing a reverse image search feature.
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So this is all kind of ties in with kind of authenticity of, you know, accuracy and fact-checking, and all those things that people kind of want now from, you know, knowing if anything's fake.
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They've kind of added a feature where you can, if anyone forwards you or sends you an image, you can kind of quickly tap and rev- do a reverse image search to see the origins of the picture. That's really useful.
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So that could be really useful. I can see a lot of journalists, uh, finding that quite useful. Um, TikTok is testing a music tab for artists.
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So this isn't really groundbreaking, but it's kind of something you've seen on, uh, Instagram profiles with music and other things as well, and other platforms where an artist is also on the platform, but because their music's used a lot, you can now go to their profile, and it lists them in a separate tab for them, for those artists or their music, and you can add them to your, a new TikTok.
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So that's coming out for some people as well. And, uh, Twitter just breaking news and, uh, as we were recording actually, that Twitter has announced that they have new tweet reply settings that are coming soon.
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Uh, effectively, it means that you can put a tweet out, and before you hit publish, you can choose from one of four settings to control what happens in terms of the replies.
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So the new settings are firstly global, so anybody can reply. And then you have group, where only people who you follow and mention can reply.
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And then you have panel, and only people who, um, you mention in a tweet can reply. And then finally, the one I think, uh, Donald Trump will probably use the most, which is where nobody can reply. [laughs] So we'll see.
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But I think that it's gonna lead to people just, uh, ultimately just quote retweeting to get their point across more. Mm. Yeah. Um, but I do think it's a, it's a good move to make.
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It's a good direction to go in, and, uh, it's probably one that we'll discuss in m- in a news item next week when it's settled, and we can see what's going on and stuff. Yeah, absolutely.
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Um, it's- But as, uh, s- sorry, yeah, as one person I was, um, a- I saw on Twitter earlier said- [laughs]... uh, "How will anyone explain my jokes to me?"
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[laughs] Uh, the, the, the reply guy is going to really struggle in, i- in future to, uh, uh, send really bad replies to mainly women's tweets. So, uh, that, that can only be a good thing. Good stuff.
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Well, I think it'll be used a lot by a, a certain type of person, but we'll see which, uh, see what happens when it comes out. And that's it for today. Next week, we've got an exciting guest.
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We're gonna be talking to Instagram's head of product, Vishal Shah. And I'm sure we've got lots of very interesting questions to ask him. Oh, yeah. I'm very much looking forward to speaking to him.
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There's loads of things I wanna find out, see if we can get him to reveal something that we, uh, haven't found already on Instagram and what their plans are for the, for the year ahead and, and more besides.
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So that'll be a good one. But yeah, make sure that you hit subscribe in your podcast app of your choice so that you're notified as soon as the next episode is available.
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Geek Out with Matt Navarra is a Big Revolution production. Find out more at bigrevolution.net. You can find me on Twitter as @martinsfp. And I'm @mattnavarra on Twitter.
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So don't forget to tell everybody about the podcast. Don't forget to join the Facebook group, which is the Social Media Geek Out on Facebook. Uh, search it out and you'll find us there.
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And there's much more of what we discuss here, um, with many more people joining us in the discussion. See you soon. Goodbye, geeks. [upbeat music]