Sleeveless Garments

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the frolicsome Ian Wilkes.
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How are you Ian Wilkes?
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I am great.
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I have no idea what that word means, though.
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I'm sure you'll tell me.
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Frolicsome.
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You should be able to tell by the context.
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Oh, frolic.
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Frolic, as in frolic.
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Energetic, bubbly,
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fun.
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Yeah, feeling energetic, fun, looking forward to this podcast, this conversation.
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I always do.
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So, yeah, frolicsome.
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Great word of the
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day.
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The great word of the day.
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It's always fun to have, you know, it's fun to expand your vocabulary.
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It is.
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Learn something every day.
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You learn something every day.
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Well, we've learned quite a bit this last week.
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Speaking of a segue here, we wanted to talk about the changes that they're making to the temple garment.
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They have announced, the church has announced, that they are going to introduce a new design for the temple garment But only in areas where it's hot, which I think is kind of bizarre.
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And I also don't think it's going to last very long because everybody's going to want these garments because these garments don't have sleeves.
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And we've been told so many times, at least I have growing up, that the garment is...
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sort of a a model for modesty that whatever clothing you decide to wear it ought to match the garment and make sure that if you're wearing sleeveless clothing that obviously doesn't cover the existing garment and the term that a lot of women have used is porn shoulders The idea that if you expose your shoulders, you become walking pornography for the men who look at you.
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I think there was a talk by then Elder Oaks, now President Oaks, where he talked about women become pornography if they dress immodestly and inspire immodest thoughts in men.
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And there are an awful lot of problems with that idea.
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And I think one of the main problems with that idea is that when the garment was introduced in the time of Joseph Smith, it was never sold as this kind of modesty standard.
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In fact, the original temple garments were in fact just underwear that people put the markings on.
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I mean, you had your own underwear and then you turned it into a temple garment by either drawing or sewing in the markings on the garment.
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And those garments in the 19th century were ankle to wrist as most underwear was.
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That was not considered unusual as underwear at the time was ankle to wrist.
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And the garment has been transformed, and initially it was a one-piece garment, and then it became a two-piece garment, and it's gone through all kinds of changes.
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And now, this latest change is that we're now going to have essentially a sleeveless garment.
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I have an awful lot of thoughts about this.
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I'm assuming you have an awful lot of thoughts about this, and I'm going to ask you for that in a bit.
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But I just want to couch this in my own sort of experience with this, because it's so remarkable to me that we could even have this conversation.
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Because growing up and when we were missionaries in Scotland, garments were just not something that you talked about, at least not publicly.
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And it certainly wasn't something, when I was growing up and I grew up in the church, you converted to the church as a teenager, but I grew up and I saw my parents in their garments.
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I was aware of garments, but I still didn't know anything about them.
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I didn't know anything about, for instance, the marks on the garments.
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I didn't realize the garments had any kind of significance to them.
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And I really didn't learn details about the garments until I went through the temple that first time.
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I had bought garments.
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I had prepared for that.
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I knew that that was going to be something that was going to be part of my life going forward.
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But I really didn't understand what they were for, what they meant, what they did, what the significance was, what the symbolism was.
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And there was absolutely no...
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venue in which you could discuss that.
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Even if I'd had questions, and I really didn't.
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I didn't have questions.
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It just didn't really even occur to me that I had to be thinking about these things.
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But even after going through the temple and after wearing the garment, it was just assumed that you did not discuss them.
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I remember you leading a zone conference where you talked about the marks on the garments And you talked about what they symbolized.
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And I thought Ian Wilkes is going to hell.
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How dare he discuss this outside of the temple.
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And you had said that you had been in some kind of a meeting where somebody had done that and you had felt the spirit.
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And so you felt it was appropriate to be able to do that.
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And I remember on my mission thinking, boy, that's just not appropriate.
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You just don't talk about the garment ever again.
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That has changed radically and significantly to the point where now garments are discussed in general conference.
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And that's a fairly recent development, but it's a radical departure from the culture in which I was raised.
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Temple garments were just so sacred.
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It's the whole kind of taboo that surrounds the temple generally.
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Because we're told we're not allowed to discuss the temple outside of the temple.
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Except we never make that kind of a promise in the temple.
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We make a promise in the temple to not discuss specific signs and tokens that are given to us in the temple.
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And we are not allowed to discuss what those are and reveal what those are.
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And there's nothing else in the temple ceremony that tells you you can't talk about things.
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And I remember...
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Asking my father, for instance, about the charge to avoid all light-mindedness, loud laughter, and evil speaking of the Lord's anointed.
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And saying, what does loud laughter mean?
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And because I'm, as people can tell when they listen to me, I've had some complaints about this podcast that I'm just too loud.
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And that's always sort of been...
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the volume setting for my voice.
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I'm a loud guy.
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And I said, does that mean I can't laugh because I'm loud?
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No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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That's not what it means at all.
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It means the kind of laughter when you're drunk.
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Drunken laughter is what it means.
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And I thought, okay, well, that's fine.
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And then I remember talking to another church leader who said, no, no, no, what it means is you're not allowed to laugh at sacred things.
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And I went, well, isn't that what light-mindedness is isn't that sort of laughing at sacred things and the bottom line is that nobody could give me an answer because nobody knows and finally that was taken out of the endowment i'm assuming that it was placed in the endowment as sort of a leftover from some kind of masonic language because i know that a lot of parts of the endowment were just sort of lifted directly from Masonic Temple ceremonies, and I'm wondering if that was a phrase that came from that, but I don't know.
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But the reality is that every single person interpreted that phrase however they chose to interpret it, and that there was not some sort of objective standard to which you could appeal to say, this is what loud laughter is, this is exactly what's forbidden, and now that language is gone, so...
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you start to wonder, well, why was it even there in the first place?
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If it isn't some kind of eternal principle, some kind of eternal solid standard upon which we can rely, then why was it ever there?
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And what does that say about the rest of the ceremony?
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Well, that's the kind of discussion I'm now seeing about the change in garments.
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Because so many, particularly women, I think as we have this discussion, we have to acknowledge the fact that we are coming from a place of male privilege.
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I've never ever really had an issue wearing garments.
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I find them comfortable.
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I've never had a problem really with garments.
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I've had a few sort of Well, the one problem I would say I had with them was when I was a theater student at the University of Southern California.
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And when I was in shows, you change clothing in group dressing rooms, and I was always kind of embarrassed to be wearing garments.
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I didn't want people to see my garments.
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It wasn't necessarily that I was embarrassed by them, but it was also this whole taboo about people can't see them.
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People can't know about them.
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These are so sacred, I can't discuss them.
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And so I would go into a bathroom stall and change my clothes in a bathroom stall.
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I now look back on it and say, why was I even wearing garments if I'm wearing a costume on stage?
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I was in the Richards building at BYU this last week, which is where the dance department is, and I saw pictures on the wall of dancers in costumes, BYU dancers, And clearly they weren't wearing garments because they didn't match up with the costumes that were being worn.
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And they apparently saw it as appropriate not to wear garments in those circumstances.
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And I, now looking back on it, think I probably shouldn't even have worn garments when I was wearing stage costumes.
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But regardless of that, I was sort of embarrassed by it.
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I would go change in my own sort of corner and I felt strange and isolated as a result of that.
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But that's really a minor thing.
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kind of difficulty that I've had with garments.
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I really haven't had any kind of difficulty.
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There has been a great deal of discussion, some of which has spilled out into the larger media, into the New York Times, about garments.
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Women discussing the fact that these garments, there are health reasons why these garments are problematic, that women get infections, and I don't want to get too specific or medical, but it's a much greater sacrifice for women to wear these kinds of underclothing, which are uncomfortable and in some cases unhealthy, than it is for men who are anatomically different and don't have those same kind of challenges.
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But the one thing that I'm seeing from so many women is this idea of, okay, we were told we were walking pornography.
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We were told that these garments were modesty cloaks that kept us from tempting other men.
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And we were told that we couldn't expose our shoulders no matter what.
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And the cost, the difficulty of doing that, the fashions of the day almost always have dresses that that are very lovely dresses that expose shoulders.
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And Latter-day Saints wedding dresses very often expose shoulders.
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And Latter-day Saint women have been forbidden from wearing those because they don't match up with the temple garment.
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And there's so much, I think, legitimate anger and frustration with the idea of, okay, here are the sacrifices I have made as a woman to wear the temple garment.
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And now with these new garment changes, it's very clear that I made those sacrifices for nothing.
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There was no eternal principle involved.
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And the garment was never intended to be some sort of modesty shield.
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The intent of the garment was always to remind us of our covenants, not to make sure that our shoulders were covered.
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And so it's really interesting when the church makes what most people would see as a positive change, and I see it as a positive change.
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I'm looking forward to wearing garments that don't have sleeves.
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I don't know that they're going to be available in Utah yet.
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But I think that it's just a matter of time.
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The idea that they can keep these isolated and siloed in what they consider warm climates is really kind of silly.
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All you have to do is talk to your cousin in a warm climate and say, could you pick up a pair of garments for me without sleeves and you're in business.
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So this is going to be churchwide.
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Eventually garments are going to be sleeveless and that's going to be the new standard.
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And Whenever something positive like this happens, you see this kind of reaction of, well, tish, I made all these sacrifices to live by the old standard, and now I'm told the old standard didn't matter.
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And there's this sort of sense of betrayal.
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I had that sense of betrayal when the church reversed the policy of exclusion, where we weren't allowed to baptize the children of gay parents.
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And when it was reversed, my sense was, okay, I'm glad it's reversed, but why can't we acknowledge then that it was wrong, that there was a mistake, that it wasn't this wonderful, marvelous revelation at the time, that it was actually a very painful and destructive mistake.
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And I think that's what a lot of these women are looking for.
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I don't know that it would fully be satisfactory to say, okay, yeah, it was a mistake to say that shoulders are pornography and we're sorry for that, but it's certainly better than just pretending that we never ever said that or we never taught that or the culture never demanded that of us and just presume that That's flushed down the memory hole and off we go.
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And we're going to wear these new sleeveless garments and just hope for the best.
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And just pretend that's the way it's always been.
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Pretend it's never been a problem.
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That erodes faith.
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Oh, sorry.
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My phone just said something to me.
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But that kind of That kind of unwillingness to confront error, unwillingness to apologize for a past mistake, unwillingness to even acknowledge the existence of any kind of mistake, I think that gets back to the fundamental, the most destructive problem in the church, which is this false doctrine of prophetic infallibility, the idea that we've never done anything wrong, that leaders have never done anything wrong, that we've never made any mistakes, Everything comes back to that for me.
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And for this, we can't just celebrate, hey, this is great.
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We're finally getting sleeveless garments because there's too much pain associated with the past mistake, the past idea that garments had to have sleeves and that there was some kind of eternal purpose to that.
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And we're not willing to accept or acknowledge that we could have gotten it wrong.
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So that's kind of my rough overview of the whole thing.
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You're not currently wearing garments anymore.
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So I'm really interested to hear your perspective from the outside looking in.
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I
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just want to
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clarify that I am wearing clothes.
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No, you're wearing clothes, yes.
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I'm wearing clothes.
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I'm wearing garments.
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I'm wearing clothes.
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I want to make sure that I...
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Because I'm in Canada, otherwise it would be quite cold today.
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Well, this is an outdoor podcast, so it's good for people to know that we are clothed while we're doing.
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We are clothed, absolutely.
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I just think at least 80% of the time we're clothed when we record.
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80%
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of the time.
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This is a fascinating subject and one that I wanted to get into at some point.
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So the timing with the...
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church making the announcements on its website on the 17th of October, a few years ago, is certainly interesting.
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On previous podcasts, we've talked about, at times, how the church is changing in different ways at different times.
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On some of the hard stuff, it takes the church quite a long time to change.
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On other stuff, it's happening quicker.
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And I see this as a positive change, but a significant one at that.
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You and I come at the garment experience from different angles.
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You grew up in the church.
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I didn't.
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You were taught about these sacred garments.
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You saw them, you didn't talk about them, but you knew they were sacred.
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And that was instilled into you as a member of your family, a member of the church at that time.
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I didn't have that experience.
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I converted to the church at 16.
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When I was taught by the missionaries, they made no reference to the temple, by the way, about the endowment or the ceilings or the washings and anointings.
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There was no conversation whatsoever about some point I would...
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need to perform those sacred ordinances.
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They did mention about the temple, about going there and being sealed to God and taking out sacred...
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I think they mentioned ordinances, but there's nothing specific.
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There's no discussion, conversation whatsoever about garments.
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I had no idea what I was signing up for.
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But quite early on into my post-conversion, within the first year, I heard about them.
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And I was quite intrigued by them.
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And then when I saw them, I thought the most strangest cultish thing I'd ever heard of or ever seen.
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And then when I heard about the markings, I thought it was very, very strange.
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I remember I served a mission with you and I, before you go to mission, of course, you are required, instructed required to go to the temple and take out your endowments before you serve a mission.
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And I did that in 1986.
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This is pre-1990, before the changes.
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And I've shared my experience with the endowment and the Washington Anointings, and they were, for me, frightening.
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They were...
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I felt I'd joined a cult.
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They were the most weirdest, strangest thing that I've ever experienced and ever seen.
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When I went through the temple and went through the Washington Anointings, you wear...
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I wore this...
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I'm not sure what it was.
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It was like a covering, like a shawl, a very long shawl to my feet, and I was wearing nothing underneath.
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And the individual performed an ordinance with oil and gave me the Washington anointing with oil with this long, white, thin, cloak-type shawl I was wearing with wearing nothing underneath.
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I felt completely...
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It was the most uncomfortable experience I'd had in my life at that time.
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And then you put on the sacred garment.
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I thought that was strange.
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You then go through the ordnance, the endowment, and then you learn about the markings.
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And the markings were...
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Interesting.
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You know, there's a reference there to Freemasonry.
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So I want to couch this in Freemasonry.
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You know, for our listeners who are not members, active Mormons who are in good standing, who are dedicated, devoted, committed members of the church, who pay tithing, who are Temple Recommend holders, who receive interviews every year and go through sorry, every two years, go through the process of being qualified as worthy upstanding members of the church in full fellowship in the church, are invited and required to hold a temple recommended.
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There are certain terms and conditions that they have to abide by.
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One of them, of course, is one of the questions, one of the 15 yes or no questions is, do you wear the garment both day and night?
00:23:01.594 --> 00:23:07.573
Some of the questions are coming back to me now, and having asked those questions, thousands of times as a bishop and also on a state presidency.
00:23:08.074 --> 00:23:33.405
But in my experience going through the temple, which is a very strange, unusual experience and quite an uncomfortable experience for me, I learned that, again, if we couch this in Freemasonry, I learned that the markings on the garment were representing the, one was a square, that was a reverse L-shaped symbol on the right breast that represents justice and fairness.
00:23:33.602 --> 00:23:35.943
On the other one was a compass.
00:23:36.384 --> 00:23:38.747
And we could, you know, when we put the garments on, we could see.
00:23:38.767 --> 00:23:41.490
And I just couldn't stop touching them.
00:23:42.270 --> 00:23:47.796
But I thought the most strangest thing, I would look down and I could see these sewn-in symbols.
00:23:48.457 --> 00:23:57.185
That was just strange and weird and bizarre and interesting, all of the same kind.
00:23:57.865 --> 00:24:01.509
The other mark, of course, was on the navel, you know, in the tummy area.
00:24:02.018 --> 00:24:04.181
And that was a horizontal line in the midsection.
00:24:04.520 --> 00:24:08.085
The V-shaped, by the way, symbol on the left breast represents the North Star.
00:24:08.645 --> 00:24:09.366
Do you remember that?
00:24:10.288 --> 00:24:10.969
The North Star.
00:24:11.469 --> 00:24:11.730
They don't
00:24:11.769 --> 00:24:13.612
mention that at the ceremony, though, do they?
00:24:14.051 --> 00:24:15.273
No, no, but that's what I was told.
00:24:15.354 --> 00:24:20.259
It was represented like the north, like a direction, like the truth, the north, the direction.
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:23.182
That's what I was taught.
00:24:23.784 --> 00:24:26.307
And the horizontal line was in the midsection.
00:24:26.446 --> 00:24:30.571
And the sign of the knee was the, you know, on the hem of the right leg.
00:24:31.232 --> 00:24:31.713
And that...
00:24:32.066 --> 00:24:38.935
was every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ and every knee shall bow words.
00:24:39.096 --> 00:24:39.917
I think they were the words.
00:24:40.538 --> 00:24:44.044
So it was quite an extraordinary experience for me.
00:24:44.064 --> 00:24:55.641
I learned all about the garment and the meaning and the symbols for the first time back in, I think it was September, October 1986.
00:24:57.523 --> 00:25:08.969
And that there was, I attended, the temple preparation classes prior to going to the temple.
00:25:09.569 --> 00:25:26.529
And there was no reference to, there was a brief reference to the garment, no reference to the symbols, no reference or details, sorry, reference to the Washington 19th endowment and the garment, but no details in regards to what I will be doing in the temple prior to go to the temple.
00:25:27.171 --> 00:25:39.342
Yes, you do get the option at the very beginning, as you know, at the beginning of the endowment to, if you're not comfortable with this, you don't want to proceed with the endowment, you've got the option of getting up and walking out.
00:25:39.843 --> 00:25:52.538
And I'm surrounded by friends, people who have invested a great deal in my life at that time at the age of, you know, I think I was 21 before I went, 20 years old when I went for the endowment.
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:58.026
And all these people that I knew so well were all around me, supporting me.
00:25:58.561 --> 00:26:03.827
And I certainly didn't feel it would be right to leave, but I did feel uncomfortable.
00:26:03.988 --> 00:26:06.210
In hindsight, I wish I had.
00:26:06.250 --> 00:26:07.270
Did I wish I'd left?
00:26:07.571 --> 00:26:13.298
It was a struggle because the whole thing was so unusual and so strange.
00:26:13.979 --> 00:26:24.089
And so at the end of that day, which made me feel so uncomfortable on that Saturday, I was suddenly wearing these garments.
00:26:24.609 --> 00:26:30.316
and told that they would be a protection, and that I must wear them both day and night.
00:26:31.396 --> 00:26:37.463
And if I didn't, and this is what I was taught, and I discussed this in this lesson room, I had lots of questions, as you can imagine.
00:26:37.483 --> 00:26:38.464
I had all these questions.
00:26:38.944 --> 00:26:42.229
You know, your experience is completely different than mine.
00:26:42.269 --> 00:26:44.191
You knew about the garments.
00:26:44.290 --> 00:26:45.192
You knew about the temple.
00:26:45.751 --> 00:26:48.715
You probably heard all kinds of things about the temple growing up, probably.
00:26:48.736 --> 00:26:49.737
I didn't.
00:26:49.977 --> 00:26:50.798
This whole thing was...
00:26:51.650 --> 00:26:55.155
I was dropped into the situation with very little preparation.
00:26:57.239 --> 00:27:09.378
I had questions, and even in the temple, Jim, I said, I've got all these questions, and they said, Ian, you can't ask the questions, even in the temple, unless and until you are in the celestial room.
00:27:09.799 --> 00:27:15.789
That's the only place that you can have questions about the endowment, about the seal's anointings.
00:27:16.289 --> 00:27:17.432
and about the garment.
00:27:17.451 --> 00:27:20.556
That's the only place you can ask questions is in the celestial room.
00:27:20.576 --> 00:27:21.557
So I had all these questions.
00:27:22.137 --> 00:27:24.300
And you don't spend a great deal of time in the celestial room.
00:27:24.320 --> 00:27:26.324
You might spend 15 minutes.
00:27:26.903 --> 00:27:28.326
And even then, you're supposed to be reverent.
00:27:28.406 --> 00:27:40.102
You're supposed to sit in this chair, this comfy sofa in the corner with all these chandeliers, all this palace-style adornments all around you.
00:27:40.782 --> 00:27:50.006
And the expectation is that you sit quietly, reverently, and you contemplate your existence and you contemplate your relationship with God.
00:27:50.567 --> 00:27:52.749
Yes, you might have one or two questions, but that's not...
00:27:53.690 --> 00:27:59.695
I had all these questions going through my head and didn't really feel I had the opportunity to ask the questions.
00:28:00.457 --> 00:28:10.066
Anyway, I learned that the garment had to be worn both day and night, that obviously you take them off for washing, that you...
00:28:10.467 --> 00:28:12.248
Even playing a sport, you had to...
00:28:13.128 --> 00:28:13.589
I was told...
00:28:13.953 --> 00:28:16.678
Look for opportunities to wear the garment.
00:28:16.738 --> 00:28:20.002
Don't look for opportunities to take them off, like for a sport.
00:28:20.604 --> 00:28:21.525
Look at it from the other way.
00:28:22.326 --> 00:28:30.057
If you can keep them on and you keep wearing them, then do so, even if it's a sport where usually you might take them off.
00:28:30.557 --> 00:28:33.301
Look for opportunities to keep the garments on.
00:28:33.342 --> 00:28:37.327
That was the specific and distinct message that I received.
00:28:37.788 --> 00:28:45.757
I was told that the garment was a protection, and if I took them off, I would not experience that physical and spiritual protection.
00:28:45.797 --> 00:28:54.506
That if I took them off, that I would be prone to sinning and more temptation and doing things immorally that I shouldn't be doing.
00:28:54.865 --> 00:29:07.857
But by keeping them on, it kept my mind focused and it kept me committed to the covenants that I had agreed to keep during the endowment session.
00:29:08.439 --> 00:29:17.183
I was also learned that the The garments are holy priesthood garments.
00:29:19.166 --> 00:29:21.710
So there's a male component there.
00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:35.807
So these garments were garments of the holy priesthood, and that women wore them in order to come under the protection and the umbrella of the protection of the priesthood.
00:29:36.749 --> 00:29:40.253
So women had the same obligation under the priesthood.
00:29:41.442 --> 00:29:47.532
umbrella of the priesthood, and that the garments were of the holy priesthood.
00:29:48.074 --> 00:29:51.338
So I left the temple that day.
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:58.771
We drove up on the bus back to the steakhouse there with all the steak members.
00:29:59.373 --> 00:30:00.575
I had so many questions.
00:30:00.595 --> 00:30:06.546
I was told that I couldn't discuss these things outside of the temple.
00:30:07.170 --> 00:30:09.012
was quite uncomfortable.
00:30:09.473 --> 00:30:12.417
These things on me that I just didn't feel very comfortable.
00:30:13.078 --> 00:30:16.785
And I had to wear them.
00:30:17.586 --> 00:30:20.349
Now we've got this change.
00:30:20.451 --> 00:30:24.356
So I went on the mission and I just got used to them like everybody else.
00:30:25.258 --> 00:30:30.205
And it became part of me, part of my identity.
00:30:30.226 --> 00:30:35.394
And I had no problem with the style.
00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:38.173
I didn't like some of the materials.
00:30:38.272 --> 00:30:40.276
I ordered some that were more comfortable.
00:30:41.096 --> 00:30:42.618
I had no problem with the symbols.
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:43.520
I just got used to them.
00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:46.265
And then they just became part of my life.
00:30:46.945 --> 00:31:08.801
I think what appears is happening here is that they must have had, the church must have had some feedback or I've heard they performed a questionnaire or issued a questionnaire to some units and stakes and got some feedback on wearing the garment in hot, humid areas.
00:31:09.303 --> 00:31:19.236
He says here, the church is providing redesigned options in styles and fabrics for sacred temples worn by members, including those residing in hot, humid areas.
00:31:19.537 --> 00:31:36.787
Presume that this message is for everyone, that anyone can, even if you're living in northern parts of Canada, I presume you've got the option of buying and wearing these different styles with no shoulders in them?
00:31:38.127 --> 00:31:42.732
Or is it exclusive to hot, humid temperatures?
00:31:43.272 --> 00:31:49.179
I live in a part of Canada that gets quite hot in the summer, but it's Canada that also gets very cold in the winter.
00:31:49.219 --> 00:31:58.448
Does that mean we put on the longer garments for the winter and the shorter garments for summer?
00:31:58.468 --> 00:32:00.970
It seems a little bit odd there.
00:32:01.190 --> 00:32:10.907
Or is the rule for anyone that anyone can buy and wear these styles, even if they live in Antarctica.
00:32:11.769 --> 00:32:16.673
I don't know what the position is.
00:32:17.154 --> 00:32:28.047
But it says here, the first presidency in making of this announcement emphasized the importance of the garment of the holy priesthood in a letter in April 12th.
00:32:29.248 --> 00:32:33.993
And that also alerted general local authorities to lead us to changes to the tab or recommend interview questions.
00:32:34.625 --> 00:32:37.228
and accompanying the statement of wearing the garment.
00:32:37.909 --> 00:32:45.296
It says here that the garment of the holy priesthood is a sacred symbol of Jesus Christ and is a reminder of our co-relationship with him in the Heavenly Father.
00:32:45.336 --> 00:33:40.663
And when I had that presentation on the mission that you attended as a ZOL leader, I think it was a way of district leader, I got the idea from two missionaries that had, who was only in Edinburgh when I first came out, who actually got permission from President Dunn to talk about garment to a bunch of missionaries including myself when i arrived in the scotland television back in you know back in february 87 when these um when this i remember having that meeting i thought that was great i thought it was really cool to connect the relationship between the garments and the symbols and the work the mission work the commitment obedience limit exactness the symbols uh remind us of those covenants And I thought that was really good because I think it really ought to remind ourselves why we were out there serving a mission.
00:33:41.164 --> 00:33:43.186
And I felt a strong spirit from that meeting.
00:33:43.567 --> 00:33:49.717
And so I simply copied that conversation later on in the mission, which is where probably you heard it.
00:33:50.778 --> 00:33:54.804
And I got permission to do that from President Banks at that time.
00:33:54.844 --> 00:34:01.211
And you probably thought I was being a little bit loose in terms of talking about stuff like that.
00:34:01.252 --> 00:34:02.013
But I saw...
00:34:02.465 --> 00:34:09.494
a relationship between the garment, between the symbols, and the work, if you like, that we're doing in the mystery field.
00:34:10.215 --> 00:34:12.938
So I don't see anything negative in this.
00:34:12.978 --> 00:34:14.719
I see this as generally positive, Jim.
00:34:14.760 --> 00:34:15.760
I think it's...
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:16.762
I take it...
00:34:17.262 --> 00:34:29.896
I accept that in hot, humid climates, you need to wear styles and a type of garment that's more conducive to those kind of climates.
00:34:30.476 --> 00:34:31.358
I don't know...
00:34:31.842 --> 00:34:59.014
if that's a hard and fast rule for climbers, for example, is it very prescriptive in the event that the temperature reaches like, you know, 32 Celsius or 30 Celsius and then you take, you know, you change your garments or is it just, you know, because in the conversation, the temple recommend conversations, it's a, they talk about personal choice.
00:34:59.936 --> 00:35:01.277
It's a personal practice.
00:35:01.505 --> 00:35:04.230
or is it more prescriptive?
00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:05.210
I don't know.
00:35:05.231 --> 00:35:11.179
I'm not getting any of the clarity of that in the statement that the church has made on its website.
00:35:11.500 --> 00:35:14.324
So just to summarize, this is my experience.
00:35:14.583 --> 00:35:16.166
The whole thing was odd.
00:35:16.186 --> 00:35:21.034
I couldn't ask questions, very limited to ask questions.
00:35:22.596 --> 00:35:32.364
Went on a mission, got used to them, talked about them a little bit on the mission, felt that if I didn't wear them, I wouldn't have the protection, physical protection.
00:35:32.384 --> 00:35:40.112
You hear stories that, mystery stories on the mission, where someone was scolded with hot water on a kettle or something.
00:35:40.132 --> 00:35:42.134
They were making a hot water bottle or something.
00:35:42.753 --> 00:35:45.416
And some of the hot water spilled onto their thigh.
00:35:45.476 --> 00:35:51.222
But because the garment was on the leg, they didn't get burned.
00:35:51.983 --> 00:35:58.130
And only the part of the leg that the water touched, where there was no garment, is the word.
00:35:59.106 --> 00:36:00.047
There was an injury there.
00:36:00.527 --> 00:36:03.994
I heard these strange, bizarre stories like that on the mission, which I didn't...
00:36:04.695 --> 00:36:08.161
I believed at the time, but in hindsight, I don't believe that anymore.
00:36:08.702 --> 00:36:15.132
I don't know what physical protection the garment provides post me leaving the church.
00:36:15.472 --> 00:36:21.222
At the time, though, I just thought, and I was taught, drummed into me, that if I don't wear that garment, I'm not protected.
00:36:21.963 --> 00:36:25.409
Physically, spiritually, I'm going to go off and...
00:36:26.114 --> 00:36:27.635
do all kinds of immoral things.
00:36:27.976 --> 00:36:34.224
A physical body is not going to, you know, is going to be exposed to all kinds of potential risks.
00:36:34.826 --> 00:36:38.050
So, again, I think this is a good move.
00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:48.023
I don't know, I'd be fascinated to get the reaction of an older senior member who has worn the traditional styles over the years, what they think.
00:36:48.344 --> 00:36:51.347
It'd be fascinating to get those people on and have a conversation with them.
00:36:51.367 --> 00:36:55.132
But that's my, you know, pretty much my download on...
00:36:55.969 --> 00:36:57.271
on what I think is going on here.
00:36:58.353 --> 00:37:00.514
Well, you raise a couple of things that are interesting.
00:37:00.936 --> 00:37:11.447
You talk about whether or not the website or the church is prescriptive about how these sleeveless garments can be worn, and they aren't.
00:37:12.949 --> 00:37:27.344
And furthermore, I would go so far as to say as they aren't nearly as prescriptive about how the garment is to be worn as the church culture would have you believe.
00:37:28.844 --> 00:37:42.438
For instance, very often I was asked, the temple recommend questions that focus on garments have changed rather markedly in a short period of time.
00:37:43.338 --> 00:37:49.465
It used to be that they would read this statement where they would say, you need to make sure you're wearing the garment day and night.
00:37:50.706 --> 00:37:52.208
That was the phrase that was in there.
00:37:52.407 --> 00:38:00.518
And there was even a an edition about you shouldn't take the garment off to do yard work.
00:38:01.318 --> 00:38:07.047
I mean, they specifically identified yard work as something that can be done with the garment.
00:38:07.728 --> 00:38:16.181
And then that changed, and they said, are you wearing the garment as you were instructed in the temple?
00:38:16.402 --> 00:38:18.264
And that was pretty much all that it said.
00:38:18.324 --> 00:38:21.090
It didn't outline when, where, and how.
00:38:21.505 --> 00:38:24.110
It did say in accordance with the covenants you made in the temple.
00:38:24.170 --> 00:38:28.054
I mean, the supplementary information is coming back to my mind now in those two.
00:38:28.094 --> 00:38:34.704
They're the only questions where you get this supplementary information about wearing the garments in accordance with the covenants that you made in the temple.
00:38:34.724 --> 00:38:35.184
I remember that.
00:38:35.445 --> 00:38:37.527
And you had to read that verbatim, by the way.
00:38:38.289 --> 00:38:38.530
Right.
00:38:38.550 --> 00:38:42.715
I remember looking at my piece of paper and read that straight off the paper.
00:38:43.777 --> 00:38:44.036
Right.
00:38:44.358 --> 00:38:49.925
But the question is, what covenant did I make in the temple with regard to the garments?
00:38:50.106 --> 00:38:50.206
Right.
00:38:51.362 --> 00:38:52.382
There isn't one.
00:38:53.224 --> 00:38:54.045
There isn't one.
00:38:55.706 --> 00:39:07.382
There's a mention of the garment at the beginning of the endowment ceremony where they say, you had a garment placed upon you which you have been instructed to wear throughout your life.
00:39:09.784 --> 00:39:11.126
And what does that mean?
00:39:11.668 --> 00:39:13.489
It's just the same as what does loud laughter mean?
00:39:14.130 --> 00:39:16.653
What does it mean to wear the garment throughout your life?
00:39:16.893 --> 00:39:19.777
I wear shoes throughout my life.
00:39:20.418 --> 00:39:22.380
Does that mean I have to wear them night and day?
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:23.963
Do I have to sleep in shoes?
00:39:25.224 --> 00:39:28.628
But if someone says, have you worn shoes throughout your life?
00:39:28.728 --> 00:39:30.251
I'd say, absolutely, I have.
00:39:31.233 --> 00:39:49.818
The fact is that whether the church likes it or not, how the garment is to be worn will always be, has always been, and will always be subject to personal interpretation.
00:39:50.114 --> 00:39:50.514
Period.
00:39:52.036 --> 00:40:12.905
And it's really kind of bizarre to me to see the Utah area presidency just last year issued a statement saying we're very concerned about how casual people have become wearing the temple garment.
00:40:13.246 --> 00:40:18.393
And that was sort of the precursor to the first time the garments were mentioned in general conference.
00:40:19.297 --> 00:40:35.603
And they had a woman deliver the talk about the importance of wearing garments, which is not insignificant given the fact that women have, I think, a far more legitimate reason not to wear the garments for health reasons.
00:40:35.824 --> 00:41:01.208
Anyway, the point is the church and the members of the church don't seem to realize that The restored gospel of Jesus Christ does not exist as some kind of platonic ideal independent of the lived experience of the members.
00:41:03.512 --> 00:41:08.900
Every single member of the church lives their own version of the gospel.
00:41:13.487 --> 00:41:26.673
When I wrote my response to the CES letter, Jeremy Runnels has written, and I haven't read much of it because it's just got way too tedious for me, but he's written a debunking of my debunking of his letter.
00:41:26.713 --> 00:41:37.170
And the basic thesis of his debunking is Jim Bennett is not describing chapel Mormonism.
00:41:37.751 --> 00:41:40.715
He's describing Jim Bennett Mormonism.
00:41:41.597 --> 00:41:45.206
This is his own version of of the church.
00:41:45.407 --> 00:41:48.289
It's not the real version of the church.
00:41:49.271 --> 00:42:07.291
And I would submit that there is no such thing as the real version of the church, because every single member of the church lives the gospel according to their interpretation of it, according to their personal circumstances to which they adapt it.
00:42:08.373 --> 00:42:10.355
And there's no other way.
00:42:10.375 --> 00:42:13.117
It doesn't exist independent of that.
00:42:13.793 --> 00:42:18.159
If there are 17 million active members of the church, that number's high, obviously.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:20.742
Okay, pick a number.
00:42:21.163 --> 00:42:30.974
However many millions of active members of the church there are, there are that many millions of different variations of how the restored gospel is lived.
00:42:31.856 --> 00:42:35.199
And that principle applies to the garment.
00:42:36.061 --> 00:42:43.210
And I remember when I first heard that question change from night and day to...
00:42:44.097 --> 00:42:52.128
as instructed in the temple, I remember saying to myself, okay, I'm going to remember exactly how I was instructed to wear the garment in the temple.
00:42:52.650 --> 00:42:55.072
I was instructed to wear it throughout my life.
00:42:56.014 --> 00:42:57.996
I wear the garment throughout my life.
00:42:58.858 --> 00:43:10.635
Now, if some bishop or stake president or general authority wants to come back at me and say to me, okay, well, that's not what that means.
00:43:11.556 --> 00:43:16.735
You're not wearing it As much as you should, you shouldn't have taken it off for this activity.
00:43:17.155 --> 00:43:18.597
You should be making sure you're wearing it.
00:43:19.518 --> 00:43:26.427
I have the spiritual autonomy to make that choice myself.
00:43:26.989 --> 00:43:29.793
And so does every other member of the church.
00:43:31.034 --> 00:43:33.498
And I just can't stress that enough.
00:43:34.338 --> 00:43:52.105
And my heart breaks for particularly the women who really have had to suffer as a result of someone else's interpretation of how the garment should be worn.
00:43:52.764 --> 00:44:04.519
That they've had to forego wearing a wedding dress that was lovely and that they were told by some other church leader was too immodest because it didn't cover the garment lines.
00:44:05.501 --> 00:44:27.353
Or they've had to wear garment bottoms that have caused them health problems that They should have the absolute freedom to modify or change how or if they wear some kind of underwear that's causing them health problems.
00:44:29.295 --> 00:44:35.722
It shouldn't be up to anybody else to make those kinds of personal adaptations and decisions.
00:44:37.324 --> 00:44:44.483
The only instruction that I hear with regard to garments in the temple is they are to be worn throughout your life.
00:44:44.503 --> 00:44:48.588
And also that they will be a shield of protection to you.
00:44:48.728 --> 00:44:51.851
And that has been a wild sort of thing.
00:44:51.891 --> 00:44:56.597
I remember there was a 60 Minutes story that they did on the church.
00:44:57.739 --> 00:45:04.407
They interviewed Steve Young, the quarterback for the San Francisco 49ers, who was a member of the church.
00:45:05.047 --> 00:45:09.634
They interviewed Dick Marriott, who was the head of the Marriott hotel chain.
00:45:10.657 --> 00:45:13.202
And they asked them both about temple garments.
00:45:13.842 --> 00:45:19.070
Steve Young said, I don't wear temple garments while I'm playing football.
00:45:20.052 --> 00:45:21.474
They would get sweaty and awful.
00:45:21.534 --> 00:45:28.083
And I think that that would kind of be disrespectful to what their purpose is.
00:45:29.005 --> 00:45:33.532
And I remember in my mindset at the time, this is over 30 years ago.
00:45:33.572 --> 00:45:34.873
This is maybe 40 years.
00:45:34.893 --> 00:45:37.217
No, I was in...
00:45:38.306 --> 00:45:39.487
NBA school at the time.
00:45:39.527 --> 00:45:42.510
So this was probably about 25 years ago.
00:45:43.992 --> 00:45:49.039
And I remember thinking, Steve Young, you're not honoring your covenant.
00:45:49.179 --> 00:45:51.481
You should be wearing the garments while you're playing football.
00:45:52.623 --> 00:45:53.744
I mean, that was my thought.
00:45:54.684 --> 00:45:59.791
But then Dick Marriott was asked, okay, well, you're told the garment is a shield of protection to you.
00:45:59.871 --> 00:46:00.632
And he says, it is.
00:46:01.693 --> 00:46:12.184
We went boating and there was a boating accident and there was a fire and And I got a burn that went right up to my sleeve and stopped at the garment line.
00:46:13.485 --> 00:46:17.128
And I remember just wanting to pull my hair out at that one.
00:46:17.148 --> 00:46:18.389
I thought, really?
00:46:18.411 --> 00:46:19.532
You think?
00:46:20.152 --> 00:46:23.396
So just think this through, Dick Marriott.
00:46:23.916 --> 00:46:26.117
Think what you're saying here.
00:46:26.157 --> 00:46:35.824
You're saying that the Lord is only interested in the parts of your body and keeping those parts safe that are covered by this garment.
00:46:35.864 --> 00:46:39.188
So he's only interested in your torso, not your extremities.
00:46:39.748 --> 00:46:43.952
And he's not interested in your head because your head isn't covered by the garment.
00:46:44.594 --> 00:46:50.601
So you could get a bullet right to your forehead, but the bullet would stop if it's shot to your heart.
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:52.443
I mean, how stupid is that?
00:46:52.523 --> 00:46:53.824
How ridiculous is that?
00:46:54.664 --> 00:47:04.467
I have always interpreted, even as I'm sitting there judging Steve Young, for doing something that I now think was absolutely his prerogative to do and was the right decision.
00:47:05.648 --> 00:47:14.836
But even back then, I thought, any idea that this garment is magic, you know, that's the epithet everybody uses to describe them.
00:47:14.916 --> 00:47:15.938
Magic underwear.
00:47:16.137 --> 00:47:17.739
These are magic underwear.
00:47:18.900 --> 00:47:19.961
And they're not.
00:47:20.581 --> 00:47:26.088
The reason they are a shield and protection to you is that they are a reminder of your covenants.
00:47:27.088 --> 00:47:28.250
And there is safety...
00:47:28.673 --> 00:47:43.347
in living according to your covenants, not because the fabric is going to stop a bullet or is going to prevent flames from reaching up to your sleeves the way Dick Marriott said they would.
00:47:43.809 --> 00:47:45.871
That's just absolute nonsense.
00:47:46.451 --> 00:47:53.498
So if this, I do think this announcement is a very positive step.
00:47:54.958 --> 00:48:10.456
I think it will be a more positive step If people use it to recognize that they have the authority to claim their own spiritual autonomy, that they can decide, yes, you know what?
00:48:11.036 --> 00:48:12.338
These garments have a purpose.
00:48:12.418 --> 00:48:18.789
The purpose is to remind me of my covenants that I've made in the temple, and I am to wear them throughout my life.
00:48:19.489 --> 00:48:24.717
What that means, how I do that, frequency, activity...
00:48:25.282 --> 00:48:32.449
Whatever other kind of criteria you want to apply to that, that is entirely up to me.
00:48:32.489 --> 00:48:35.213
It's not up to anybody else.
00:48:36.233 --> 00:48:41.018
And that's the case with everything in the gospel.
00:48:41.418 --> 00:48:46.684
It's interesting because we've signed up for tithing declaration.
00:48:47.306 --> 00:48:52.851
It's now called declaration rather than settlement, which is interesting.
00:48:52.871 --> 00:48:55.034
We could probably do a whole episode on that.
00:48:56.130 --> 00:49:04.822
But it's always been interesting to me that when you go in and you are asked by your bishop, are you a full tithe payer?
00:49:06.625 --> 00:49:09.048
He has to accept your answer.
00:49:10.972 --> 00:49:12.373
There is no tithing audit.
00:49:13.094 --> 00:49:17.521
He does not ask to see your bank statements or your tax returns.
00:49:18.018 --> 00:49:28.429
or determine, okay, well, is this gross, or is this net, or how are you calculating this, and I'm looking at your balance here, and this doesn't seem high enough.
00:49:29.271 --> 00:49:30.913
He's not allowed to do any of that.
00:49:30.932 --> 00:49:35.157
I think there are bishops who have done that, or do do that, and they're out of line.
00:49:35.338 --> 00:49:39.862
The handbook instructs them that they are to accept the declaration of the member.
00:49:40.362 --> 00:49:41.625
Are you a full tithe payer?
00:49:42.144 --> 00:49:45.989
Your answer is yes.
00:49:46.530 --> 00:49:47.831
yours to give.
00:49:47.851 --> 00:49:55.257
And the determination as to how that answer was arrived at is entirely yours.
00:49:56.418 --> 00:49:58.221
You have that spiritual autonomy.
00:49:58.300 --> 00:50:02.766
That's the case with every, that's the case with all the Temple Recommend questions.
00:50:03.385 --> 00:50:06.528
You know, when people ask the Temple Recommend questions, it's like, well, what does this mean?
00:50:06.548 --> 00:50:07.789
Are you honest in all your dealings?
00:50:07.849 --> 00:50:09.771
Which is, that's the old question.
00:50:09.831 --> 00:50:13.396
The new question talks about being, striving to be honest.
00:50:13.456 --> 00:50:15.717
It's a longer question, and I think it's a better question.
00:50:16.673 --> 00:50:21.121
But I remember I used to waffle on my answer to that question.
00:50:22.463 --> 00:50:28.351
And finally, one stake president said, the question is, are you honest in all your dealings?
00:50:28.931 --> 00:50:29.552
Yes or no?
00:50:31.074 --> 00:50:34.541
And at the time, I thought, well, geez, that's really rude.
00:50:34.581 --> 00:50:37.405
You should be helping me sort of navigate this.
00:50:38.505 --> 00:50:40.869
And since then, I've thought, no, you're right.
00:50:41.550 --> 00:50:42.092
You're right.
00:50:42.512 --> 00:50:43.454
That's the question.
00:50:43.905 --> 00:50:47.108
And I have to decide if I can answer it, yes.
00:50:48.090 --> 00:50:52.335
And how I come to that decision, how I arrive at that conclusion, that's all me.
00:50:52.355 --> 00:50:58.001
I no longer go into a Temple Recommend and ever have a lengthy discussion on any of the questions.
00:50:58.742 --> 00:51:10.333
Because as my uncle used to say, when he'd ever give a Temple Recommend interview, he said, these questions are far more about contemplation on your part than they are about judgment on my part.
00:51:11.266 --> 00:51:13.889
And I think that's the case with the garment.
00:51:14.532 --> 00:51:22.826
Coming back to the garment, how you choose to wear it, if you choose to wear it, how you justify that is between you and the Lord.
00:51:22.846 --> 00:51:26.472
And that's it.
00:51:26.853 --> 00:51:28.576
You have the autonomy to determine that.
00:51:29.456 --> 00:51:33.344
And so a sleeveless garment, I think that's wonderful.
00:51:33.523 --> 00:51:34.385
I think that's great.
00:51:34.945 --> 00:51:54.547
If there were circumstances where you felt like you needed to remove the garment, but you didn't because you felt you were going to be judged by somebody else, hopefully this will be a signal to you that whatever somebody else thinks, even if it's a church leader, is not the issue.
00:51:54.927 --> 00:51:57.570
You have the autonomy to make that determination.
00:51:57.990 --> 00:51:59.632
You have the autonomy to make that decision.
00:52:00.454 --> 00:52:02.195
So that's my soapbox.
00:52:03.476 --> 00:52:04.018
What do you think?
00:52:05.442 --> 00:52:06.603
I think this is fascinating.
00:52:06.764 --> 00:52:13.972
As I listen to you, I wonder if one decided not to wear the garment, are they breaking temple covenants?
00:52:14.132 --> 00:52:15.393
I don't think they are, technically.
00:52:16.394 --> 00:52:21.260
Although we get taught that we would be breaking temple covenants.
00:52:21.340 --> 00:52:27.668
But to your point, we don't make a covenant to wear the temple in the temple.
00:52:28.550 --> 00:52:31.653
Two things in regards to the questions.
00:52:32.898 --> 00:52:36.563
They have changed the questions, as you know, in the Temple Recommend interview questions.
00:52:36.643 --> 00:52:42.550
And question five, which says, the Lord has said that all things are to be done in cleanliness before him.
00:52:43.070 --> 00:52:47.956
The two questions there are, do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior?
00:52:48.376 --> 00:52:52.501
That's a change from when I was, you know, in asking those questions.
00:52:52.983 --> 00:52:55.266
And the other one is, do you obey the law of chastity?
00:52:56.226 --> 00:53:05.541
And then if you look at the questions related to the garment, in the temple recommended view, questions which have been updated.
00:53:05.581 --> 00:53:09.168
The questions are, do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
00:53:10.590 --> 00:53:18.862
And do you honor your sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory audiences?
00:53:19.643 --> 00:53:28.715
And then they've also updated, it appears they've updated that additional supplementary information that is bishops and state presidents used to read during the interview.
00:53:28.996 --> 00:53:29.777
And I'll read it here.
00:53:30.402 --> 00:53:38.911
He says that the garment of the holy priesthood reminds us of the veil in the temple, and that veil is symbolic of Jesus Christ.
00:53:39.590 --> 00:53:42.954
When you put on your garment, you put on a sacred symbol of Jesus Christ.
00:53:43.574 --> 00:53:48.260
Wearing it is an outward expression of your inner commitment to follow him.
00:53:48.340 --> 00:53:50.001
Do you remember those teachings?
00:53:50.621 --> 00:53:53.364
The garment is also a reminder of your temple covenants.
00:53:54.206 --> 00:53:57.949
You should wear the garment day and night throughout your life.
00:53:58.722 --> 00:54:31.811
So, as I read that, that, in my mind, does tie the temple ordinance to and the covenants to wear the holy garment, the priesthood garments.
00:54:31.851 --> 00:54:32.432
That's what they are.
00:54:33.313 --> 00:54:36.699
And not wearing them is a breach of those covenants.
00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:38.621
That's my interpretation.
00:54:39.403 --> 00:54:55.447
But technically, we're not, you know, to your point, down to our own discretion and our interpretation, I guess technically, if we didn't wear the garments, or often don't wear them at all, I suppose we could still, we're still upstanding, we're still worthy, we're still...
00:54:56.865 --> 00:54:57.827
can go to the temple.
00:54:57.887 --> 00:55:04.132
We're not in breaching any covenants technically because we don't make a specific covenant for that.
00:55:06.114 --> 00:55:22.951
The other thing that really I want to highlight as well that really pissed me off actually, excuse my language there, was we talk about, we've had it drummed into us that the garment is a power of, represents the power of the covenants in our progression.
00:55:23.471 --> 00:55:26.653
And we've said just earlier that it's an outward expression of an inward expression.
00:55:26.945 --> 00:55:29.289
personal commitment to Jesus Christ.
00:55:29.349 --> 00:55:32.954
And we were taught how sacred those garments were.
00:55:33.675 --> 00:55:37.601
You know, reminder of the covenants, protection from evil, outward expression of commitment.
00:55:38.103 --> 00:57:02.001
And yet, a few years ago, to my alarm and discomfort personally, the church published pictures of the garment, my underwear, my sacred personal underwear, in a publication, quite there, in the open, showing the stuff that i wore i was really pissed off by that because why do i you know something so personal to me on a personal level uh why do i want people who you know every everyone on the planet every tom dick and harry uh learning all about the my underwear the sacred underwear that i wear i i i no one asked me if it's okay to publisher you know pictures of a of my underwear that i wear this sacred special unique distinct underwear if it was just some briefs or something on you know a catalog or whatever everybody wears whatever that's fine but this is supposed to be this is very personal very personal to me you know this is me sharing my personal feelings on this subject other people might feel differently but i uh took exception to the church making that unilateral decision to post photographs, pictures of my personal underwear in a publication that could be read by anyone.
00:57:03.041 --> 00:57:04.862
And no one asked me if it was okay.
00:57:05.143 --> 00:57:06.605
I really, that angered me.
00:57:07.365 --> 00:57:11.048
And I'm like, okay, they're under pressure because it's all over the internet.
00:57:11.449 --> 00:57:21.059
You know, Mormons wear sacred, magical, Harry Potter, magical underwear, whatever, right?
00:57:21.119 --> 00:57:24.202
You know, it's this strange, weird thing that they're wearing.
00:57:24.737 --> 00:57:49.681
and they probably got asked loads of questions about the underwear and it was all over the internet you and i've seen those comments right and for me it was okay fine you know when i was active they can talk about stuff like that it doesn't mean that i have to talk about them it doesn't mean that um you know i need to engage in a conversation about my underwear why would i talk to me about my underwear right You know, you go to work and people talk about your underwear.
00:57:49.702 --> 00:57:51.003
I mean, that's completely inappropriate.
00:57:51.483 --> 00:58:01.998
Yet here the church is publishing photographs, images of, you know, my personal underwear that I wear, you know, the kind of underwear that we all wear in the church, active in the church.
00:58:02.699 --> 00:58:04.442
And I thought that was completely wrong.
00:58:04.461 --> 00:58:06.985
I think that was disrespectful.
00:58:07.025 --> 00:58:07.827
I think it was inappropriate.
00:58:07.847 --> 00:58:15.157
And I'm not the only one that thinks like that because, you know, when I was, when did this come out, this, when did they publish that, Jim?
00:58:15.217 --> 00:58:15.677
Can you remember?
00:58:16.898 --> 00:58:21.864
I don't remember the exact time, but it wasn't just the garments.
00:58:21.945 --> 00:58:25.469
They also published pictures of temple clothing.
00:58:26.590 --> 00:58:28.172
You know, the apron, the robe,
00:58:28.452 --> 00:58:28.594
the
00:58:29.034 --> 00:58:29.094
hat.
00:58:29.574 --> 00:58:30.215
Yes, they did.
00:58:30.255 --> 00:58:31.958
Yes, they did.
00:58:33.659 --> 00:58:39.367
And then they put out these videos that describe the temple ceremony.
00:58:39.427 --> 00:58:43.494
They describe it as a ritual reenactment of the creation and that you are...
00:58:44.385 --> 00:58:48.751
You liken yourself to Adam and Eve and you go through and you make the covenants.
00:58:48.911 --> 00:58:54.298
They've been far more open about what goes on in the temple.
00:58:54.498 --> 00:58:57.322
And it wasn't just that we were not supposed to talk about the garments.
00:58:57.342 --> 00:58:59.144
We weren't supposed to ever talk about any of that.
00:59:00.246 --> 00:59:04.251
We would get in trouble if we mentioned any of those kinds of things.
00:59:04.532 --> 00:59:08.056
And now it's out there on the internet for anybody.
00:59:08.416 --> 00:59:11.240
My reaction to it was exactly the opposite of yours.
00:59:11.460 --> 00:59:12.934
I was like, Wonderful.
00:59:13.034 --> 00:59:14.096
Thank you for being open.
00:59:14.155 --> 00:59:15.498
Thank you for being transparent.
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:25.871
So it's really interesting that your reaction, I had not thought to react in the way that you did.
00:59:26.492 --> 00:59:28.353
Yeah, I couldn't stand it.
00:59:28.634 --> 00:59:30.096
I thought, what the heck is going on?
00:59:30.297 --> 00:59:40.432
And I appreciate you reminding me and our listeners here that the The church, and I've got the announcement here or the information on the church website about temple garments and riddance clothes.
00:59:40.733 --> 00:59:42.536
They talk about all the things that you've just said, of course.
00:59:42.956 --> 00:59:48.784
You know, temple garments, they talk about the temple robes, you know, they put pictures of the temple clothing.
00:59:49.445 --> 00:59:55.492
I was uncomfortable with that also because it looks very, you know, to the non-member, you know, I've got a lot of non-members.
00:59:55.914 --> 00:59:57.596
I joined the church as a team.
00:59:58.518 --> 00:59:58.657
What?
00:59:59.106 --> 01:00:03.693
Regardless, working, my colleagues, you know, most of the people I work with are not members of the church.
01:00:03.733 --> 01:00:04.914
I don't live in Salt Lake.
01:00:05.034 --> 01:00:06.757
I don't live in Provo.
01:00:06.998 --> 01:00:13.108
You know, not everybody's a member of the church on my corner, you know, around anywhere at all, by any means.
01:00:13.829 --> 01:00:18.215
And so, you know, what I did in the temple was very private and very personal.
01:00:18.376 --> 01:00:19.838
I didn't want people knowing about that.
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:24.847
You know, if they were to talk about it on the internet and guess or, you know, make the assumptions, that's up to them.
01:00:24.867 --> 01:00:26.630
I wasn't comfortable.
01:00:26.882 --> 01:00:32.530
Talking about that, I'm certainly uncomfortable talking about, you know, temple underwear, for goodness sake.
01:00:32.690 --> 01:00:40.422
Whoever made that decision at the church leadership is, well, if you're listening, it's inappropriate.
01:00:40.443 --> 01:00:41.364
I think you made a mistake.
01:00:41.905 --> 01:00:54.184
Anyway, interesting that we come from, you know, I was converted to the church and I grew up without the, you know, wearing the temple garments or any knowledge of the temple ceremonies.
01:00:54.364 --> 01:01:25.507
And I come from a completely you know non-mormon perspective and and and that was my reaction when i saw those pictures i read that material on the church inside and you grew up with it all and you uh were okay with it so it's interesting that everybody has a different experience uh you know to um you know to what was going on like but i i think you know me in my perspective now i you know having left the church my perspective's completely changed and this whole thing i don't I don't wear those garments.
01:01:25.547 --> 01:01:27.090
They don't really mean anything to me.
01:01:27.351 --> 01:01:39.269
And by the way, just for our listeners, if they don't know, when you wear out your garment, you're not allowed just to throw them in the bin.
01:01:40.692 --> 01:02:18.123
You have to cut out the symbols in case someone takes them and wears them and uses them or misuses them supposed to cut out the actual symbols with scissors and destroy the symbol separately somewhere else and so and then once you do so the garment loses all power by the way so when the symbols are removed cut out the garment is just a worldly garment they mean nothing and you can't you are not allowed you are discouraged from throwing the garments away without cutting out those symbols.
01:02:18.204 --> 01:02:32.822
And I don't know if our listeners are aware of that, but that is something that I discussed and shared as a bishop, having received direction from a state presidency to give that kind of instruction.
01:02:32.882 --> 01:02:45.539
So once you throw your garments away, you can do that only after you've cut out the symbols and removed any Evidence or signs of those symbols in your garments.
01:02:46.139 --> 01:02:48.784
So the changes, I think, are good.
01:02:50.005 --> 01:03:00.981
You know, if we fast forward to 10 years, will the church announce or show that we've got a new bra for the ladies?
01:03:01.541 --> 01:03:09.733
Just a normal regular bra with the symbols on and a pair of, you know, forgive the words, a pair of knickers with the symbols on.
01:03:10.081 --> 01:03:11.463
Is that where we're heading?
01:03:13.266 --> 01:03:19.456
That might be 20 years away, but I think that might be where this is going, but we'll see.
01:03:19.998 --> 01:03:21.880
So I think overall it's a positive change.
01:03:22.161 --> 01:03:26.268
It doesn't mean anything to me anymore, but it certainly will.
01:03:26.469 --> 01:03:45.681
I'd be interested to wonder what the more traditional Orthodox senior member thinks about these changes to the gal because they grew up in a very different time, even long before you and I, you know, folks who are much older than I who go through all these changes.
01:03:45.701 --> 01:03:47.463
It'd be fascinating to get their take on this.
01:03:48.224 --> 01:03:50.487
Well, I've gotten the take of one of them, my mother.
01:03:50.527 --> 01:03:55.072
She was over here for dinner last night and she thinks it's great.
01:03:55.873 --> 01:03:56.753
She's like, that's great.
01:03:57.474 --> 01:04:03.981
I mean, there's no, there's no heartbreaker angst about it.
01:04:04.673 --> 01:04:06.297
She's just sort of rolling with it.
01:04:07.257 --> 01:04:12.887
I had forgotten, actually, that you're supposed to cut out the marks on your garments.
01:04:14.710 --> 01:04:15.751
What does that say about me?
01:04:15.771 --> 01:04:17.494
I may be in serious trouble.
01:04:18.496 --> 01:04:24.106
You have to go retrieve, wherever you dumped them or left them or threw them away, you have to go recover them now.
01:04:24.206 --> 01:04:27.431
Otherwise, you will be accountable under pain of death.
01:04:27.851 --> 01:04:29.835
All right, well, I'm looking forward to that.
01:04:30.275 --> 01:04:31.217
That should be interesting.
01:04:32.001 --> 01:04:35.065
No, this has been a really interesting discussion.
01:04:36.085 --> 01:04:56.365
And the only thing I want to say here, the conclusion, is this highlights also another issue, the whole idea that the church doesn't change or that there are eternal principles that don't change.
01:04:56.405 --> 01:04:57.887
Doctrine never changes.
01:04:58.648 --> 01:04:59.608
That's the thing we're told.
01:05:00.550 --> 01:05:01.875
And And it does.
01:05:01.914 --> 01:05:03.195
It does.
01:05:03.215 --> 01:05:06.059
And we can demonstrate that it does.
01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:11.844
And instead of openly acknowledging that it does, we say, well, that was never really doctrine to begin with.
01:05:12.445 --> 01:05:34.532
You know, all those things you were taught about the garment, that it was this modesty shield or that you weren't allowed to show it to anybody or that, I mean, these were all things that I have been taught as if they were fundamental principles of the gospel that these new changes now illustrate.
01:05:34.672 --> 01:05:35.413
No, they weren't.
01:05:36.014 --> 01:05:37.775
They weren't fundamental principles of the gospel.
01:05:37.815 --> 01:05:42.280
They were tradition or they were culture or they were just wrong.
01:05:42.920 --> 01:05:47.405
And now here we are moving towards something else and we've changed.
01:05:48.507 --> 01:05:57.498
And the church tries so hard to prop up this illusion that there are never any changes.
01:05:58.369 --> 01:06:01.233
when the church changes all the time.
01:06:02.574 --> 01:06:13.885
And I think that a healthy and sustainable faith allows for that, accepts that, embraces that, and takes responsibility for that.
01:06:14.226 --> 01:06:19.891
So anybody who's upset about the new garment, I hear you.
01:06:19.911 --> 01:06:26.018
I can understand your frustration with the pain of what's happened in the past.
01:06:26.722 --> 01:06:29.925
And I would very much like to see the church acknowledge that.
01:06:29.945 --> 01:06:31.686
I don't think they will.
01:06:31.726 --> 01:06:50.045
Hopefully, this, I think, will be a catalyst for many people to reclaim their spiritual autonomy and say, okay, this garment is sacred to me, and what that means, it being sacred to me, is between me and the Lord.
01:06:50.706 --> 01:06:54.028
So with that, I think we're going to wind up here.
01:06:55.297 --> 01:06:57.661
Very much appreciate this discussion with you.
01:06:58.262 --> 01:07:00.585
Very much appreciate all of you who are listening.
01:07:00.625 --> 01:07:05.431
Please make sure to subscribe to our podcast so you can be notified when a new episode comes out.
01:07:06.213 --> 01:07:08.315
We're very glad to have you on for the ride.
01:07:09.217 --> 01:07:14.523
And until next time, we hope to see you again on Inside Out.
01:07:15.005 --> 01:07:15.746
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:07:15.786 --> 01:07:16.847
Thank you, Jim.
01:07:16.967 --> 01:07:19.070
Thank you.