Ian's Mission: Trauma and Triumph

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Thank you.
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Welcome to Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett, and we've been recounting Ian Wilkes' story, and we've reached a point where his story and my story combine.
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Ian is now on his mission in Scotland, and this is where we met each other.
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I was also a missionary in Scotland, and so I'll leave it to Ian.
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We've talked about his first month, and we'll go from there.
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So the first month was...
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Lots of spiritual experiences, lots of, it was tough physically.
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Companion was completely burned out.
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Lots of some funny experiences, but we worked very hard, followed the rules, worked extremely hard.
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By the way, the area president found out that President Dunn was making his missionaries work on a P-Day.
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The general authority was Kyle C.
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Acey at the time, who I met and did some work with.
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I'm proselyting with him one night, by the way.
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He rebuked, not in my presence, obviously, but I heard he rebuked President Dunn very sternly for making the missionaries work on a P-Day.
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You're not supposed to make missionaries work on a P-Day.
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It's
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not at all healthy for the missionary to do that.
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There's a reason you have a P-Day.
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I would like to see a P-Weekend.
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In their charge of missionaries.
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Well, and P-days, I mean, they always end at 5 o'clock, or they end after dinner.
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Then you have to go proselyte.
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I mean, you never really feel like you can wind down.
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You never do.
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Yeah, I agree.
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You never did.
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5 o'clock, you had dinner.
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6 o'clock, and I've still got the white handbook.
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You had to be out.
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And you had to make sure you had to go appointments.
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So you tracked it, lined up between 6 and 9, right?
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And then 9 to 9.30, you had to be in by 9.30.
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You had, I don't know, one of those half an hour before 10.30, it was a review of the day and what's happening the next day.
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Then the rest of the half an hour was showering or getting yourself ready, et cetera, et cetera.
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You're in bed by 10.30 prior, et cetera, et cetera.
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So, yeah, you had another three hours on your P-Day to work your butt off, and it was brutal, absolutely brutal.
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So the first month was...
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And then the second companion was Elder Pyre.
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Oh, I remember Elder Pyre.
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Elder Pyre from New Zealand.
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And he was...
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completely opposite uh he didn't want to go out and work he he uh really didn't believe in it uh very much it was um a rite of passage i think for him and his family in new zealand and a great guy funny guy uh very musical uh he would um you know when we knock on the doors there he would um uh while we're waiting for someone to come to the door he would start rapping at the door he would had this ability to tap his foot uh you know tap uh the book of mormons there that he had in his hands and he would make a a rap sound uh with his his lips hands you know and and he was there with that other door with his hands and his feet they're a musical very funny guy um completely different and in some ways quite opposite elder awkward and was quite happy to work very few hours.
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You know why I know that name?
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I didn't know Elder Paya, but Elder Paya was assigned to train Elder Romney in air.
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Right.
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And I was called in after three weeks in an emergency move because they had not left the flat for three weeks.
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Right.
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Oh, wow.
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They just sat there.
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Elder Paya kept claiming that he had diarrhea.
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And so he couldn't leave the flat.
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And Elder Romney finally figured out if you had diarrhea for three weeks like that, you'd be dead.
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The way he was describing it.
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Anyways.
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Yeah, it is the same person.
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Him and I got along really well.
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I worked.
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I was out.
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He didn't want to put the work in, but we did.
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I was there for a reason.
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I'd come out for a reason.
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I Yes, I didn't want to overwork anyone, but I wanted to work, and I wanted to help people join the church and not stay in.
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I wasn't interested in that.
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Him and I got along.
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He was funny.
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It was a very different experience to Elder Rockwood.
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I got one extreme to the other, and I wanted to be somewhere in the middle, working hard, following the rules, having fun.
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not working P-days, doing some physical exercise, sleeping for an hour, for goodness sake, on a P-day without feeling guilty.
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You know, I would say, can't sleep, and all the pie would sleep all day.
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And so I'd take an hour.
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I remember writing or doing the phone-ins and asking later President Banks if I could just sleep for an hour on a P-day.
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And he said, absolutely, of course you can.
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And I said, thank you so much.
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And I said, I'll be a better missionary by...
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you know, if I can get a little bit more, a little bit of rest.
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So Elder Paya was, again, a very different experience, very casual.
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It was very funny.
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He didn't know the discussions that well.
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And the conversations was mostly about New Zealand and being a Maori.
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He was a Maori, you know, great guy.
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um and and and when he worked and when he taught he was amazing he was very effective uh but he didn't want to uh work all the hours and i can understand that you know i think your idea of a p weekend i think would really appeal to uh you know more uh fun mysteries like elder pie but he was my experience it was very good mystery very effective very funny It made people laugh, and that's a great way of developing relationships.
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Elder Rock was much more strict and stern and more serious.
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Elder Pyre was...
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People loved him, and he was a funny guy and effective in many, many ways, for sure.
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And then I went to...
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After that, I went to...
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Again, it broke my heart to leave Dumfries.
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I just loved the place and the memories there.
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And asked to stay longer, and unfortunately...
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wasn't allowed, and then went to Dunfermline.
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And we were whitewashed.
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And for those who don't know what whitewashing is, whitewashing is when two missionaries move into an area for the first time.
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The previous two missionaries go out at the same time, and two brand new missionaries who have never been to the area or don't know the area come into the area for the first time.
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So Jacobs and I had replaced, I think...
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Oh, was Doug you were with in Dunferm?
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Because you were with Jacobs again.
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I served with Jacobs twice.
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He was senior to me on two occasions.
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And again, Rockwood turned out to be a good experience in the end.
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Pyre was a good experience.
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Jacob was an even better experience.
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He was very balanced.
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He was a great, great guy.
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Jacob, he's still one of my favorite people.
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He's just a wonderful human being.
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I adore him.
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I love him so much.
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And he was such a great missionary.
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And we tracked and served in Dunfermline.
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We had a great bishop there called Bishop Jackie Watson, who was a bit of bishop for 10 years, I think, 98, 99, 10 years.
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One of the most extraordinary human beings that I've met in my entire life.
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And I think about him often.
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I went to his funeral, Jackie Watson's, and there was people literally queuing outside the building that wanted to...
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celebrate and commemorate his life an extraordinary human being and he was the bishop in the ward at the time and jacobs and i had some extraordinary experiences together uh one time we were tracking an area called dalgety bay which is um just east of uh dub fernland and uh we we we had some extraordinary experiences and there was a lady that was uh Seemingly, and this happened a few times on my mission with me directly, or I came into contact with this kind of experience, not often, but sometimes, where this lady appeared to be possessed with an evil spirit.
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And she threw some knives at us on the floor when we were teaching across the floor.
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Jacobs was there.
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He'll remember this.
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And we gave her a blessing.
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I think Jacobs was the...
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more experienced missionary than I was.
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He gave the blessing, and this lady was...
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I look back now, I think she was mentally disturbed, but at the time, President Dunn, when we described the experience, said that she was possessed with an evil spirit.
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In hindsight, she wasn't.
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She was disturbed, mentally unstable.
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And we gave her a blessing, and one of her hands tried to lift...
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our hands off.
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Another one of our hands tried to keep the hands on her head.
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And I remember that distinctly.
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We had an experience like that.
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But we taught a lot of people in Dalgety Bay, not on those doors.
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And we had limited success.
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Two people got baptized that we came into.
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They fell away very quickly.
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The retention element in Scotland, as you know, was difficult.
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A lot of people joined, as you know, and many of them left, sadly.
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Some stayed.
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In my experience, most of the ones I baptize or join the church have left for different reasons.
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Some have stayed.
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I think
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everybody I baptized has left.
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I don't think that there are anybody that are still active members of the church.
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Right, right.
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I have a member of President Bank.
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Oh, I'm sorry.
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Just the One Zone Conference.
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He actually went through some numbers.
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and said the highest retention rate, the lowest retention rate was Japan at 2%.
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Right, right.
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And Scotland was right in the middle.
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Scotland was at 12% retention.
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So I'm sorry.
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I didn't mean to interrupt you.
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No, no, no.
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That's okay.
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That's fine.
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I didn't mean to interrupt you.
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I remember one month, we had nine.
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I think before you got out, you came out, we had nine.
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And President Durn was absolutely furious with us.
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Nine for the entire mission of 150 missionaries or thereabouts.
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It was completely unacceptable.
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And he put it down to the faith of the missionaries.
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It was all on us.
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I felt it was on me to...
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to be, I wasn't doing something right.
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I wasn't obedient enough.
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And boy, was I obedient and worked hard, but not enough.
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So I was lacking something or we were lacking something.
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And so Elder Jacobs and I, we had two baptisms.
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Those individuals sadly didn't stay in the church.
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But my experience as missionaries was amazing.
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It really set the tone and direction.
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And if you've listened to this, I'm very grateful to you Scott for amazing leadership.
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He set the tone and direction and tempo of our mission for the rest of the mission.
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Great missionary, loved the people.
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At that time, present done each month had been coming with revelation around different topics and subjects to focus on.
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They get the missionaries more successful.
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One month was repentance, the other one was faith, et cetera, et cetera.
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And we, Jacobs and I, developed some thinking around how to incorporate more charity love of Christ into the lessons and be more Christ-like and more serving the community rather than just teaching them.
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And that was very much Jacob's inspiration and leadership, which I followed and he introduced, which was shared and distributed across the entire mission, by the way, under the direction of, at that time, I remember now, was Elder Holland because he came to the apartment.
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So this will have been May April, May, June 1987 in Dunfermline, Elder Sampson, Elder Holland, I think it was the APs at that particular time.
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And so the whole mission focused on Elder Jacobs' charity concepts.
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Was it Sampson or was Samoa that you tricked into getting into using your old bathwater?
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Samoa.
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Yeah, okay, not Sampson.
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It was the Dunfermline department where we had met Elder Samoa and Elder Widmire for the first time.
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They were our district leaders.
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And we traded off our tractor with those guys in the district.
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They were in Cooper.
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We were in Dunfermline.
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And Samoa came to stay with me.
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And I said, my bathwater had healing properties.
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And you have to understand, Jim, at the end of a long day...
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I got pretty sweaty and pretty grimy.
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And I convinced him, because he was the new guy.
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He was being trained, by the way.
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Elder Widmire was training him.
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He was a greenie.
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I'd been out, I don't know, three, four months.
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Jake had been out eight months or six months.
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And Samoa came to stay with me.
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And I had a bath.
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It looked pretty grimy.
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And I said, look...
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There's limited hot water, plus there are healing properties in my bath water that your body might appreciate.
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And he was convinced.
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I was astonished.
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He was convinced.
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And I said, put a little bit of water in to warm it up.
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But I would take a bath in my bath water.
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And to my shock and surprise, I heard a splash in the bathtub.
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And lo and behold, it stepped into my bath.
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Senator, you told a story.
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I remember on my mission, you telling me this story.
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Except for you, it was that there was a zone conference.
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They were there to go to a zone conference.
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And so you tampered with his alarm and made him get up an hour early.
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You got up early and then convinced him that he'd gotten up late.
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And you said, you've got no time.
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There's a zone conference.
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Use my bathwater.
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You have no time to draw a bath.
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Just jump in and use my bath water.
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Is that not what happened?
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That's somebody else.
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That's somebody else.
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So you spent an awful lot of time on your mission getting people to use your bath water.
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Twice.
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Twice.
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Yeah, twice.
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Who was the second guy?
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Who was the second guy?
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I think that was...
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Who was that now?
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Um...
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It could have been Elder Roper.
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Was that Elder Roper?
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Who worshipped me.
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Hung in every word.
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I'm trying to remember if it was Elder Roper or Elder Samoa.
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My memory's not great, but Samoa definitely bathed in my bathwater.
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By the way, I wasn't the only one playing pranks on people.
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There were other missionaries, including Hilda Holland, by the way, who often played, you know, funny pranks, you know, like cellophane on the toilet kind of thing, right?
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Funny pranks, silly things, right?
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That was quite funny.
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But yeah, Samoa, I'm not sure if it was the time thing with Samoa or the healing property thing, I can't remember.
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But anyway, he bathed in my grimy bathwater And I said, how do you feel?
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And he said he felt good.
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He felt refreshed.
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So perhaps there is some truth, Jim, to the powerful Iceland Blue Lagoon healing properties.
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Well, that's a marketing opportunity for you.
00:16:54.923 --> 00:16:55.163
It is.
00:16:55.423 --> 00:16:56.905
Isn't that a marketing opportunity?
00:16:57.667 --> 00:16:58.607
It is a marketing opportunity.
00:16:58.628 --> 00:16:59.610
Ian Wilkes Bathwater.
00:16:59.750 --> 00:17:02.394
I should sell it.
00:17:02.625 --> 00:17:11.420
In fact, download a free podcast of this, and I'll throw in a cup of bathwater.
00:17:11.500 --> 00:17:13.423
Yeah, so a couple of times.
00:17:13.703 --> 00:17:21.095
So I think these guys are going to live a very long time, very long life.
00:17:21.336 --> 00:17:23.259
Because of the healing properties in your bathwater?
00:17:23.398 --> 00:17:24.760
Because the healing properties of the bathwater.
00:17:25.402 --> 00:17:29.368
So Jacobs and I, we had a pretty interesting time together.
00:17:29.388 --> 00:17:30.269
Yeah.
00:17:30.433 --> 00:17:32.455
We met some interesting characters.
00:17:32.836 --> 00:17:42.066
It was the first area where I'd come across people who were actively practicing witchcraft and the occult.
00:17:42.946 --> 00:17:51.134
And we met a few people that were involved in that type of religion, as they call it.
00:17:51.174 --> 00:17:57.662
So there were some very interesting encounters, interesting meetings with a few of those folks.
00:17:58.369 --> 00:18:03.038
And I remember one time there was an interesting conversation with a wizard.
00:18:03.057 --> 00:18:04.721
He was a practicing wizard.
00:18:06.384 --> 00:18:08.188
Do you have a hat?
00:18:08.929 --> 00:18:10.090
No, he didn't look like Gandalf.
00:18:10.151 --> 00:18:11.012
He looked like you and I.
00:18:11.353 --> 00:18:14.057
These wizards are incognito.
00:18:14.097 --> 00:18:15.560
They very much look like...
00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:18.051
Like you, actually.
00:18:18.352 --> 00:18:21.415
You look like a wizard, a wizard, a grand wizard.
00:18:22.116 --> 00:18:27.682
And this chap was, you know, it must have been in his 50s, 60s, and he was a grand wizard.
00:18:28.104 --> 00:18:37.275
And he knew quite a bit about the church and the endowment and the Freemason relationship and a little bit about Joseph Smith, et cetera.
00:18:37.295 --> 00:18:47.579
And he described to us the relationship between the church the temple ceremonies or the freemasonry type ceremonies and witchcraft.
00:18:47.660 --> 00:18:58.115
In fact, he had aprons and other clothing, symbolic clothing that they used in their rituals and their practices.
00:18:58.155 --> 00:19:44.471
And he said that there was a relationship or some similarities between freemasonry, some of the Protestant freemasonry versions, which is the version that I think Joseph Smith went with, and the temple rituals that we have in the church i was just didn't when i was listening i didn't believe that there was a relationship but he he did show us um uh some of the uh attire some of the clothing that he wore and there were some similarities for sure um if you know if you remember this in the temple there is and you'll know this of course uh there is a statement in the temple where satan He's asked, you know, what is he wearing?
00:19:44.511 --> 00:19:53.443
And he makes a reference that these are to do with his powers and his priesthoods, if you remember that part.
00:19:54.526 --> 00:20:06.602
And so this individual, this wizard, is saying there was a relationship between that part of the temple ceremony and the rituals that he was involved in.
00:20:07.362 --> 00:20:10.026
And so I was quite shocked by that.
00:20:10.527 --> 00:20:13.832
And I was quite astonished and didn't really accept it or believe it.
00:20:14.913 --> 00:20:18.898
And it was one encounter, but it had an impression on me.
00:20:18.939 --> 00:20:31.978
And I just remember thinking that some of the similarities with the symbols, one of them was on one of the clothing items.
00:20:32.018 --> 00:20:36.965
I remember seeing the Big Dipper, the Ursa Major.
00:20:37.250 --> 00:20:39.472
star formation.
00:20:40.233 --> 00:20:46.061
And I think, if I'm not mistaken, I think that was on the Salt Lake Temple at one point.
00:20:47.784 --> 00:20:58.718
I think I've seen some star formations and there were sun, moons, and stars on some of the clothing material that this wizard showed us.
00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:32.131
But if I understand, there's a number of references in the church material and um on some of the temples if i'm not mistaken in relation to the constellation the stars and the sun and the moon etc etc there's obviously references to that in the temple ceremony but uh it was um a complete eye-opener for me and i i didn't really take it seriously at the time uh i have not stood in it since but i understand that there is a relationship between that version of religion and Freemasonry.
00:21:32.471 --> 00:21:36.096
And we came across this often, you know, in Scotland.
00:21:37.057 --> 00:21:49.855
Well, I remember you talking about Freemasonry in Scotland and the similarities between the two, that at one point you said something like, I would show you the lion's grip, but it's too close.
00:21:51.155 --> 00:21:52.037
Does that sound right?
00:21:52.959 --> 00:21:55.201
Yeah, yes, the...
00:21:56.034 --> 00:21:58.097
The handshakes, they're very masonry.
00:21:58.117 --> 00:22:11.641
From what I was shown, from quite a few people that I met with in Scotland, there are a lot of similarities between the temple hand gestures and some differences.
00:22:11.921 --> 00:22:12.803
The lion grip.
00:22:13.483 --> 00:22:14.865
And there was other...
00:22:17.185 --> 00:22:25.577
handshakes and signs and symbols and tokens that the Freemasons have developed over centuries.
00:22:28.702 --> 00:22:37.915
Just a side point, some of the families that I got to know when I joined the church, one family in particular, were Freemasons.
00:22:38.457 --> 00:22:40.881
They'd probably been practicing Freemasons.
00:22:40.961 --> 00:23:03.789
This is going back to England now, a few years before, and they'd left the Freemasonry and they'd joined the church, but this individual had kept the Freemasonry clothing and we used to home teach him and he described, not in great detail, but he talked about some of the similarities between the church temple rituals and ceremonies and Freemasonry.
00:23:04.431 --> 00:23:06.773
And I think what shocked me when I went to Scotland was the...
00:23:09.569 --> 00:23:20.148
extensiveness of the Freemasonry relationship and every community that I lived in in Scotland.
00:23:20.470 --> 00:23:23.355
As you know, there were Freemasonry buildings all over the place.
00:23:23.375 --> 00:23:23.915
They're everywhere.
00:23:25.057 --> 00:23:30.185
You know, the Compass and the you know, the right angle there.
00:23:30.326 --> 00:23:31.028
And it's everywhere.
00:23:31.048 --> 00:23:32.911
They're on buildings, et cetera, et cetera.
00:23:32.931 --> 00:23:34.393
And they don't hide it.
00:23:34.432 --> 00:23:39.781
They don't discuss it openly, but they're across all of Scotland.
00:23:39.962 --> 00:23:48.576
And we came across quite a lot of number of active and non-active Freemasonry who went into quite a bit of detail on what they did.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:54.086
Well, the square and compass are secret symbols in Freemasonry.
00:23:54.817 --> 00:23:58.403
You know, that's a symbol that is used very often.
00:23:58.423 --> 00:24:01.728
It's used publicly and they describe it as the square and compass.
00:24:03.391 --> 00:24:07.036
And so, and obviously that has similarity to symbols that we use.
00:24:07.876 --> 00:24:10.540
So yeah, that's absolutely right.
00:24:13.244 --> 00:24:24.181
So that was, there were some interesting encounters in Dalgety Bay in which Jacobs and I were, you know, were participants in, unbeknown to us.
00:24:24.769 --> 00:24:28.115
You know, when you go into someone's home, you just don't know what to expect.
00:24:29.317 --> 00:24:30.378
You're encouraged.
00:24:30.419 --> 00:24:34.084
There's some pressure on getting into the house, right?
00:24:34.625 --> 00:24:39.031
So you've got a very short window opportunity on the doorstep.
00:24:39.593 --> 00:24:40.733
You don't know the person.
00:24:41.414 --> 00:24:43.038
You have no idea what's behind that door.
00:24:43.739 --> 00:24:48.506
You're strongly encouraged and taught to get into the house to teach a discussion.
00:24:48.546 --> 00:24:53.394
And so at times you get into a situation that you...
00:24:54.018 --> 00:24:57.282
where you find yourself in a very difficult or interesting conversation.
00:24:57.323 --> 00:25:15.749
And one of them was, and this happened often, and it happened for the first time with me in Dunfermline, was a gentleman allowed us to come into his home and we sat down and we started going into the Holy Ghost dialogue or the first discussion and said, look, before we do this, I want to show you something.
00:25:16.354 --> 00:25:26.304
on video, and so very quickly, in the space of a few seconds, just reached forward and pushed in a VHS video into the video, and we said, well, what are you going to watch, etc.?
00:25:26.825 --> 00:25:30.107
And he said, just wait and see, and we had no idea what to expect, right?
00:25:30.888 --> 00:25:33.270
And it was the Godmakers.
00:25:33.351 --> 00:25:46.220
He was starting to show us the Godmaker video, and I'd heard about it, and we were advised by President Dunn that anyone that wanted to discuss this or show this, that we were to you know, get out of the situation pretty quickly.
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.083
And I think it was with Jacobs at the time.
00:25:49.143 --> 00:25:51.806
And I remember who was with which companion.
00:25:51.846 --> 00:26:00.493
But we tried to leave and he was insisting that we would stay and watch this and that we would teach him false doctrine.
00:26:01.095 --> 00:26:05.979
I think a few minutes into it, you know, watching this and it was kind of strange and bizarre.
00:26:06.078 --> 00:26:07.039
And I didn't stay.
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:07.780
We didn't stay there.
00:26:07.840 --> 00:26:23.492
But we had situations like that where things would be sprung on us and And we would be often surprised at all types of questions and conversations from the occult to witchcraft to paganism.
00:26:23.534 --> 00:26:28.500
There was one particular experience that Jacobs and I had with the prophet.
00:26:28.981 --> 00:26:35.171
We met a prophet, a prophetess, who was the prophet of the Church of the Holy Sunflower Seed.
00:26:36.772 --> 00:26:37.374
That's...
00:26:37.538 --> 00:26:40.622
Yeah, Jacobs and I remember this.
00:26:40.682 --> 00:26:46.990
And so she was the prophetess of this church that was in that part of Scotland.
00:26:47.090 --> 00:26:48.913
It was the Church of the Holy Sunflower Seed.
00:26:49.574 --> 00:27:03.471
And it was a very strange, somewhat unusual teachings about, if I recall, spirits, human spirits exchanging spirits with animals.
00:27:05.057 --> 00:27:34.704
know humans sharing animal bodies and vice versa uh which uh you know is some religions around the world believe that so it was a very very unusual and for us quite uh you know strange uh even for us um as mysteries actually a lot of people found our teachings very strange i know they did um but we we met some very interesting people who were part of cults and witchcraft and practiced the occult and Freemasonry.
00:27:34.724 --> 00:27:39.892
And it seemed to happen a lot in Dalgety Bay and Dunfermline.
00:27:40.732 --> 00:27:48.443
We had, you know, quite a number of people that we encountered who we met in that three, four months that we were there.
00:27:48.483 --> 00:28:26.442
So they were interesting experiences and some were quite scary that, you know, there was a a lady that we met who was a witch and said that if we didn't stop teaching these uh that we were false prophets if we didn't stop teaching these um forces that christ would be returning and be is the redeemer etc etc she would cast a spell upon us and that uh would uh our lives wouldn't work out very well so we met um others who were uh traveling gypsies who um were generally very, very nice and very sweet.
00:28:26.501 --> 00:28:29.386
But we had one lady who threatened to cast a spell on us.
00:28:29.507 --> 00:28:38.021
So we went through a period of a few months where we met all kinds of people from all kinds of backgrounds and religions.
00:28:38.883 --> 00:28:44.251
And it seemed to happen disproportionately in that particular area for some reason.
00:28:44.432 --> 00:28:52.273
I'm sure it's nothing to do with the geography, just that we seem to meet quite a few people You know, these different faiths, different religions, different cults.
00:28:52.755 --> 00:28:54.458
It was a fascinating time for sure.
00:28:56.121 --> 00:28:56.741
Very cool.
00:28:57.903 --> 00:29:03.755
I don't recall ever meeting anybody who tried to cast a spell on me.
00:29:05.257 --> 00:29:08.323
But I'm wondering, was she successful?
00:29:08.442 --> 00:29:12.029
And did she end up ruining your life with the spell that she cast?
00:29:12.834 --> 00:29:21.286
I don't think so, although I'm still alive and maybe the spell is yet to take effect.
00:29:21.826 --> 00:29:23.669
But I'll let you know.
00:29:23.689 --> 00:29:30.758
And if you don't hear from me suddenly, then I guess the spell has worked.
00:29:30.858 --> 00:29:32.421
But so far, I feel good.
00:29:32.540 --> 00:29:33.021
Life's good.
00:29:33.122 --> 00:29:37.468
I'm confident I should be okay.
00:29:38.048 --> 00:29:38.930
This is very nice.
00:29:39.554 --> 00:29:46.942
Now, you had mentioned at one point that Elder Samoa ended up sitting on a cat, and the cat did not survive the
00:29:47.021 --> 00:29:47.623
experience.
00:29:48.263 --> 00:29:48.723
I did.
00:29:48.804 --> 00:29:49.003
I did.
00:29:49.424 --> 00:29:52.708
I come to think of it, I don't know if it was him.
00:29:52.769 --> 00:30:05.021
I think Elder Samoa was a big guy, very 6'2", 6'3", what, 300 pounds or 280 pounds, big guy, big Samoan guy, wonderful guy, very funny guy.
00:30:05.153 --> 00:30:06.316
Very animated.
00:30:07.116 --> 00:30:10.382
If I'm not mistaken, I think it was him.
00:30:10.582 --> 00:30:11.604
It could have been another missionary.
00:30:11.624 --> 00:30:12.746
It might have been Elder Bagley.
00:30:13.145 --> 00:30:13.646
Elder Bagley.
00:30:14.729 --> 00:30:20.136
But one of the missionaries sat on a cat.
00:30:20.357 --> 00:30:21.980
I think it was a kitten.
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.404
And I think this is where the story comes from.
00:30:25.546 --> 00:30:27.028
And it didn't survive.
00:30:27.048 --> 00:30:29.330
I think it suffocated, unfortunately.
00:30:30.133 --> 00:31:07.468
And I think the kitten was underneath these couches that were quite thick I think it got stuck down there and one of the missionaries sat on the couch the settee and it didn't survive and that's what that's what I heard I wasn't there so I can't vouch for that but that's what I heard and happened and I don't know if it was Elder Samoa it could have been or it could have been Elder Pagley I'm sure somebody will remind me remind us as they you know who know us from that time who that mission was but uh yeah that's uh i believe that didn't happen yet
00:31:08.469 --> 00:31:23.332
that is delightful that is lovely all right well so so as far as your mission experience goes i mean do you want to to tell some more um stories specifically from the mission or do you want to give an overview of of how that happened
00:31:24.153 --> 00:31:36.160
yeah i'll i'll give you an overview i mean each area brought all kinds of experiences, but for the most part, the entire part, really, it was an amazing success for me.
00:31:36.540 --> 00:31:38.522
There were ups and downs.
00:31:39.223 --> 00:31:49.096
I struggled with the difficulty with people rejecting what I thought was the extraordinary message.
00:31:49.135 --> 00:31:53.981
There was a huge amount of rejection.
00:31:54.001 --> 00:31:56.144
I struggled with...
00:31:57.665 --> 00:32:03.090
people who at the time felt it was right, but their partners didn't want them to go forward.
00:32:03.912 --> 00:32:08.316
There was one individual that Jacobs and I taught, and I'll remember his name very clearly.
00:32:08.375 --> 00:32:11.338
He's a young man, older than us, in his 20s.
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:13.101
His name was Dean Gentle.
00:32:13.641 --> 00:32:16.242
Scott Jacobs will remember this individual very well.
00:32:16.262 --> 00:32:20.146
And we were teaching him, and he had quite a profound experience when we were teaching.
00:32:20.166 --> 00:32:21.848
I remember that experience very well.
00:32:22.509 --> 00:32:27.193
And then a few days later, he got some anti-Mormon literature through the Post.
00:32:27.713 --> 00:32:34.462
And we said that that was Satan trying to stop him from joining the church.
00:32:34.883 --> 00:32:42.613
I remember reading that pamphlet and it talked about Joseph Smith, polyandry, Joseph Smith, polygamist, etc.
00:32:42.653 --> 00:32:44.915
And it was an attack on Joseph Smith.
00:32:44.996 --> 00:32:48.681
And we discounted it and we told Dean, said, look, this is completely false.
00:32:49.260 --> 00:32:52.925
Interesting how this is coming at a time when you're learning that the truth is true, etc.
00:32:53.057 --> 00:32:55.781
He never was baptized.
00:32:55.981 --> 00:32:57.083
We actually filled the font.
00:32:57.844 --> 00:33:00.948
We'd organized the baptismal program.
00:33:00.988 --> 00:33:01.848
Speakers lined up.
00:33:02.349 --> 00:33:04.172
He actually never showed up, unfortunately.
00:33:04.752 --> 00:33:06.776
Decided at the last minute not to join the church.
00:33:07.155 --> 00:33:11.721
And that was tough at the time, way through those experiences.
00:33:12.623 --> 00:33:37.211
But for the whole part of our mission, I think I struggled with the lack of interest from people, the lack what I saw at the time was rejecting the gospel message and the intensity of the 10, 11 hours a day and not feeling I was being successful or really making any difference.
00:33:38.173 --> 00:33:43.378
There was all kinds of experiences with all kinds of people, including with companions.
00:33:43.439 --> 00:33:48.585
We had a couple of interesting companions, one in particular that you and I know very well.
00:33:49.986 --> 00:33:50.946
I
00:33:51.047 --> 00:34:01.096
did a podcast interview with the guy from Northern Ireland, and he was interviewing me, and he said, did you know any missionaries from Northern Ireland?
00:34:01.156 --> 00:34:02.758
And I said, I did.
00:34:02.778 --> 00:34:10.905
And I shared the name, and his eyes just kind of got very wide, and he says, yes, yes, I know him.
00:34:10.925 --> 00:34:15.889
And then when we got off the podcast, we swapped some stories.
00:34:15.990 --> 00:34:19.474
He's had some experiences there, and said, that guy is crazy.
00:34:19.969 --> 00:34:22.032
Yeah, he's the same person.
00:34:22.072 --> 00:34:33.250
So President Banks called me, and I was a Zola leader at the time, and she said, Ella Wilkes, love you, appreciate you.
00:34:34.592 --> 00:34:40.981
One of my finest missionaries, I'm sure he told everyone that, and that's fine, butchering me up.
00:34:41.041 --> 00:34:42.063
And he said, look, we've got a problem.
00:34:42.083 --> 00:34:46.628
We've got a missionary here who's close to going home and kind of a last chance saloon kind of thing.
00:34:46.668 --> 00:34:50.719
And And he's struggling and his companions are struggling with him.
00:34:50.798 --> 00:34:53.943
And I mentioned the name immediately and he went, yep, that's him.
00:34:54.463 --> 00:35:00.211
Would you, he asked me, he asked me the question instead of, you know, deciding this person to be.
00:35:00.251 --> 00:35:01.152
And I said, yep, I'll do it.
00:35:02.315 --> 00:35:03.876
It was a mistake on my part.
00:35:04.597 --> 00:35:06.701
It really almost ruined my mission.
00:35:07.581 --> 00:35:17.695
There were some awful things that happened, which we might get into at some point, but, you know, threats and, physical violence.
00:35:17.737 --> 00:35:18.217
Pulled a knife?
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:24.731
Pulled a knife on me and wouldn't work, wouldn't get out of the shower, just couldn't get him out.
00:35:24.791 --> 00:35:27.617
Had strange revelations about people in the ward.
00:35:28.438 --> 00:35:29.842
Disappeared in the middle of the night.
00:35:31.344 --> 00:35:31.967
Just very...
00:35:33.793 --> 00:35:35.255
challenged individual.
00:35:35.275 --> 00:35:42.387
If you look at his background, you know, it's not surprising with, you know, history and background that he came from.
00:35:42.407 --> 00:35:47.056
And I, at the time I was upset and angry and disappointed in that experience.
00:35:47.096 --> 00:36:00.489
I look back now and I see, you know, for it as a young man who was struggling to, you know, similar issues in some ways with what I experienced growing up and self-esteem and self-worth and trying to find yourself.
00:36:00.568 --> 00:36:04.052
And so I have, you know, empathy, sympathy, you know, for him.
00:36:04.112 --> 00:36:07.177
At the time, I was very, it almost ruined my mission.
00:36:08.038 --> 00:36:09.820
And it didn't last very long.
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:14.346
And it was a tough, that was a dark time.
00:36:14.646 --> 00:36:22.514
All the other companions were amazing people, extraordinary missionaries, but that one was tough.
00:36:22.936 --> 00:36:24.237
I was with him for two weeks.
00:36:24.769 --> 00:36:31.983
because my real companion at the time was Elder Hiscock, and he came down with the chickenpox.
00:36:33.204 --> 00:36:45.387
And Elder Spencer, no, Elder Collins was likewise ill, and Collins had our mutual friend as the companion.
00:36:45.447 --> 00:36:54.663
And so Hiscock and Collins holed up and took goofy pictures of themselves pretending to be on a surfboard and doing all kinds of silly stuff.
00:36:55.664 --> 00:37:00.208
And in the meantime, I was stuck with this guy, and it was terrifying.
00:37:00.768 --> 00:37:08.275
This was in Dundee, Scotland, and he would threaten people on their doorstep with eternal damnation.
00:37:08.295 --> 00:37:22.277
He bought candy cigarettes and would pretend to be smoking while we were tracking, and it was just, this isn't funny, and this isn't, He would just say inappropriate, terrible things.
00:37:22.398 --> 00:37:28.746
And if someone was Catholic, he would tell them that that was the devil's church and they were going to burn in hell.
00:37:28.827 --> 00:37:33.291
And it was just really, really sort of a frightening time.
00:37:33.331 --> 00:37:43.925
And what I discovered after I was with him is that there was a young woman in Dundee that he had written a letter to.
00:37:45.121 --> 00:37:51.572
telling her that he had had a priesthood revelation, which is somehow different from a regular revelation.
00:37:51.612 --> 00:38:02.668
This is a priesthood revelation, and therefore, if you disobey a priesthood revelation, you are denying the Holy Ghost, and you will spend eternity in outer darkness.
00:38:05.653 --> 00:38:17.239
And the revelation was that this woman was blind, and so she had to obey, or she was going to suffer a fate worse than hell.
00:38:18.161 --> 00:38:29.838
And all of the rumors that I heard after that were that President Banks read him the riot act and up, down, and sideways.
00:38:29.998 --> 00:38:33.282
And I'm really kind of frustrated that he didn't get sent home.
00:38:34.525 --> 00:38:40.134
You know, President Banks had this policy that he wouldn't send any missionaries home.
00:38:40.610 --> 00:38:44.255
He was very proud of the fact that no missionaries got sent home on his watch.
00:38:45.215 --> 00:38:47.880
And I don't know that that's something he ought to be proud of.
00:38:48.199 --> 00:38:57.192
There are missionaries that were doing tremendous damage to themselves and to others and were a danger to themselves and to others.
00:38:58.193 --> 00:39:02.958
And, you know, I think when a missionary pulls a knife on you, that missionary ought to be sent home.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:04.641
Don't you think so?
00:39:04.661 --> 00:39:05.643
Absolutely.
00:39:05.722 --> 00:39:06.985
I do.
00:39:07.105 --> 00:39:07.284
I do.
00:39:07.385 --> 00:39:07.905
I mean, we were...
00:39:08.385 --> 00:39:09.907
I wanted to be obedient.
00:39:10.027 --> 00:39:11.849
I wanted President Max to be proud of me.
00:39:12.050 --> 00:39:16.293
I wanted to give this person an opportunity to stay in the mission.
00:39:16.333 --> 00:39:21.340
His reputation was extraordinary.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:31.150
And every day with this individual, and I was served with the meaning of an S, but every day there was a problem or several problems.
00:39:32.150 --> 00:39:33.492
I'll give you a quick example.
00:39:34.112 --> 00:39:37.867
This is This is typical of the experience.
00:39:38.208 --> 00:39:39.952
We had a dinner appointment.
00:39:39.992 --> 00:39:41.954
We were zone leaders.
00:39:42.034 --> 00:39:42.594
I was a zone leader.
00:39:42.976 --> 00:39:48.083
We had the district leaders over, Elder Harmon from California, big guy, American footballer.
00:39:48.463 --> 00:39:51.588
I can't remember his companion, Elder.
00:39:52.150 --> 00:39:53.050
I can't remember his companion.
00:39:53.271 --> 00:39:54.333
A great guy, great team.
00:39:54.793 --> 00:39:55.414
He'd just come out.
00:39:56.335 --> 00:39:57.237
I remember him telling me that.
00:39:58.177 --> 00:40:02.485
Harmon said that he prayed every day for the return of the 18-month mission.
00:40:03.686 --> 00:40:03.927
Right.
00:40:04.268 --> 00:40:04.447
Right.
00:40:04.728 --> 00:40:05.048
Okay.
00:40:05.608 --> 00:40:05.949
Anyway.
00:40:06.146 --> 00:40:06.706
They didn't know that.
00:40:06.806 --> 00:40:08.309
I didn't know that.
00:40:08.389 --> 00:40:10.391
Him and I, we're just a great team.
00:40:10.452 --> 00:40:15.057
And he came out and he was, he said, I said, I handled it coming out of Michigan.
00:40:15.077 --> 00:40:16.860
He says, I missed listening to Def Leppard.
00:40:18.161 --> 00:40:19.764
He was a big Def Leppard fan.
00:40:20.085 --> 00:40:23.048
And he was in Elgin, east of Inverness.
00:40:23.409 --> 00:40:24.570
So we kind of, it came over.
00:40:24.610 --> 00:40:32.822
We had a dinner appointment scheduled with, I remember a lady saying, Sister Cruikshank, sweet lady, old, loved the temple.
00:40:33.474 --> 00:40:37.059
in her 70s, 80s, and she would have the missions over all the time.
00:40:37.378 --> 00:40:45.971
She had this small retirement apartment, kitchen, room, bathroom.
00:40:45.990 --> 00:40:46.351
That was it.
00:40:46.672 --> 00:40:47.974
It was tiny.
00:40:48.494 --> 00:40:53.760
And this missionary from Northern Ireland, Elder Harmon and his companion, we had this dinner appointment.
00:40:54.242 --> 00:41:03.371
And Sister Cruikshank, who had difficulty hearing, thank goodness, and that'll become, you'll see why that's important in a moment.
00:41:03.931 --> 00:41:14.182
But basically, she asked me and Elhama's companion, I can't remember his name, to set the table in the main living room.
00:41:14.764 --> 00:41:16.826
So you had to set up the dining table in the same room.
00:41:16.885 --> 00:41:17.987
She had very limited space.
00:41:18.547 --> 00:41:24.717
Meanwhile, in the kitchen, the Northern Ireland missionary and Elder Harmon, the big American footballer, were in the kitchen.
00:41:25.438 --> 00:41:29.902
And a few, you know, we're sitting at the table in the front room.
00:41:30.704 --> 00:41:33.967
Sister Cookshank is with us, organising things.
00:41:34.387 --> 00:41:39.711
And then all of a sudden, I hear this almighty crash and banging and smashing going on in the kitchen.
00:41:40.932 --> 00:41:46.978
I then rush into the kitchen and Elder Harmon is beating the crap out of this, of the missionary.
00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:49.641
And just...
00:41:50.050 --> 00:41:54.597
Pummeling in him and just punching him in the face.
00:41:54.677 --> 00:41:55.518
There's blood.
00:41:56.820 --> 00:42:01.467
A real scrap, a real fight on the kitchen floor.
00:42:01.487 --> 00:42:03.690
There's some chairs turned over.
00:42:03.731 --> 00:42:06.675
There's a pan on the floor.
00:42:07.175 --> 00:42:08.257
It's a real scrap.
00:42:08.737 --> 00:42:13.063
Elder Houston, that was, I think it was Elder Houston was the other missionary.
00:42:13.543 --> 00:42:18.889
I came in back into the room and I said, Elder Houston, you know, keep Sister Crookshank here.
00:42:18.909 --> 00:42:21.112
Sister Crookshank couldn't hear very well.
00:42:21.773 --> 00:42:27.541
And so I went back in and I grabbed these two guys and I pulled Harmon off the other missionary.
00:42:28.222 --> 00:42:34.690
And I said, you, and I told the other missionary, you get out, just go, just get out, go for a walk, just get out.
00:42:35.170 --> 00:42:37.373
And Elder Harmon stayed with us.
00:42:37.693 --> 00:42:46.128
Elder Euston went with the other missionary, and I ordered them, I instructed the other missionary to go out, to leave, et cetera.
00:42:46.889 --> 00:42:51.056
And Elder Euston took him out, and then I asked Elder Harmon what the heck happened.
00:42:51.637 --> 00:43:01.853
And this other missionary from Northern Ireland said that Elder Harmon's mother had slept with a donkey, and that's why he looked so ugly.
00:43:02.978 --> 00:43:04.641
Elder Harmon took offense to that.
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:10.088
Of course, he's a big American footballer and wouldn't tolerate that.
00:43:10.891 --> 00:43:11.452
Nobody would.
00:43:12.313 --> 00:43:14.255
And just laid into this guy.
00:43:14.295 --> 00:43:19.204
I mean, he completely flawed this other missionary that you and I know well.
00:43:20.186 --> 00:43:20.465
If
00:43:21.266 --> 00:43:26.155
we don't want to say his name, have some kind of code name for him.
00:43:26.295 --> 00:43:27.597
Yes, yes, yes.
00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:28.960
To
00:43:29.019 --> 00:43:30.061
protect the guilty.
00:43:30.465 --> 00:44:01.842
to protect the guilty and so yes we should come up with it with a code but it was just a an insult out the blue uh completely you know trying to be funny and and and um because the different tone and the different it's a sarcasm um you know the brits do sarcasm quite well uh north americans do it less well and i can understand you know i live in canada now i can understand And I see now why an insult like that, well, even without sarcasm, could be taken personally.
00:44:02.682 --> 00:44:11.614
But this individual had a habit of saying extreme things and resulted in that occasion to a really serious fight.
00:44:11.675 --> 00:44:20.385
I mean, if I hadn't have dragged Harmon off this mystery, I don't know what would have happened.
00:44:20.865 --> 00:44:23.929
So it was things like that that really spoiled my mission.
00:44:24.630 --> 00:44:38.210
Sister Crookshank, we managed to keep her in the front room while Harmon and I tidied it up and managed to remove some of the broken plates and I think the chair leg was broken.
00:44:38.250 --> 00:44:40.833
And we said, you know, she said, how did that break?
00:44:40.914 --> 00:44:43.817
I said, you know, Harmon sat on it, he's a big guy.
00:44:44.137 --> 00:44:49.744
We kind of made up a story as to why everything was wrecked or some of the stuff was wrecked in the kitchen.
00:44:50.286 --> 00:44:51.367
It was embarrassing.
00:44:51.447 --> 00:44:55.833
It was a terrible, terrible thing to, you know, terrible behavior.
00:44:56.414 --> 00:44:58.998
So things like that really spoiled it for me.
00:44:59.539 --> 00:45:03.503
And, you know, it was unfortunate.
00:45:04.105 --> 00:45:05.586
I really struggled with this missionary.
00:45:05.626 --> 00:45:14.159
After the mission, I went to a number of YSA conventions and often would bump into this individual and avoided them.
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:20.382
And I've struggled with, to think anything positive about the person.
00:45:20.563 --> 00:45:24.949
However, over the years, this person would message me.
00:45:25.009 --> 00:45:27.112
He'd message me, and I'd be polite and friendly.
00:45:27.213 --> 00:45:27.833
How are you doing?
00:45:27.873 --> 00:45:28.494
How's your family?
00:45:29.175 --> 00:45:34.603
And then I just told him on Messenger, I said, look, what you did, you really spoiled my mission.
00:45:34.623 --> 00:45:36.226
I told him exactly what I thought.
00:45:36.726 --> 00:45:39.831
And he came back with an apology, and he was sincere.
00:45:40.052 --> 00:45:48.369
And so we were able to chat back and forth, and were able to come to some closure.
00:45:48.389 --> 00:45:50.971
And so that was good.
00:45:51.110 --> 00:45:51.552
That was good.
00:45:51.592 --> 00:45:54.333
But at the time, it was very difficult for me.
00:45:54.675 --> 00:46:00.960
And in the closing interview with President Banks, by the way, you know, you have your end of mission interview with President Banks, as we all did.
00:46:02.983 --> 00:46:08.288
He gave a glowing report, which I was very grateful for, for my service.
00:46:08.989 --> 00:46:11.510
And then he made an apology.
00:46:11.971 --> 00:46:13.413
He said he apologized for...
00:46:14.914 --> 00:46:22.804
assigning this missionary to me because he knew that it had a very, very bad negative effect on me and on my mission.
00:46:23.344 --> 00:46:24.527
And he said it was a mistake.
00:46:24.626 --> 00:46:27.369
He said it was a mistake to keep him out.
00:46:28.090 --> 00:46:33.978
He should have gone home when he pulled the knife on you and all the other behavior across his entire mission.
00:46:34.018 --> 00:46:34.699
He should have gone home.
00:46:34.739 --> 00:46:35.300
And I agree with you.
00:46:35.340 --> 00:46:45.045
I think there's a time if a missionary is so psychologically impaired prior to going on a mission, then they shouldn't go.
00:46:45.085 --> 00:46:49.869
I think now the church does a better job, I think, in terms of psychological assessments.
00:46:50.329 --> 00:46:51.891
You know, if you think otherwise, tell me.
00:46:51.931 --> 00:47:00.360
But missions that I know are going out, they're, you know, they go for these medicals, they're tested, you know, their mental well-being is really, really important.
00:47:00.380 --> 00:47:08.329
I think back then they didn't have the systems in place that would have, you know, these checks and balances, I think.
00:47:08.710 --> 00:47:21.867
Well, the other thing that has changed, and I think for the better, is that the stigma of going home early when you and I were missionaries was so overwhelming.
00:47:22.228 --> 00:47:29.199
And I don't think my children particularly understand it.
00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:39.313
The idea, I mean, I spent the first, I'd say, six months of my mission in what I would describe as a clinical depression.
00:47:40.161 --> 00:47:42.885
as a medical sort of condition.
00:47:43.246 --> 00:47:44.708
Depression runs in our family.
00:47:44.748 --> 00:47:58.532
I've taken antidepressants since I've come home, but at the time, the feeling was the reason I feel so terrible is that there must be some kind of unresolved sin in my life.
00:47:59.353 --> 00:48:00.054
It's my fault.
00:48:00.355 --> 00:48:00.875
I'm wicked.
00:48:01.076 --> 00:48:01.757
I'm terrible.
00:48:02.657 --> 00:48:24.610
And I had ideas of escaping my mission You know, I couldn't imagine going into the mission home and demanding my passport so that I could go back home because there's no possible way I could go home and face my parents and face the church with that level of disgrace.
00:48:24.630 --> 00:48:27.974
It was just an unthinkable level of disgrace.
00:48:28.634 --> 00:48:45.900
And so I had visions of, you know, laying low in Scotland for a little while and then going across the Russian border and making my way across the Alaska land bridge before I finally got, I mean, just ridiculous, ridiculous fantasies.
00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:53.050
But the idea of just saying, I'm going to go home, was an unthinkable prospect.
00:48:54.012 --> 00:49:05.630
And I think maybe that's what President Banks was dealing with, is that he knew that if he sent somebody home, they'd be sent home to an environment where his local ward and everybody else would treat them like a pariah.
00:49:06.210 --> 00:49:09.195
because they weren't able to complete their missionary service.
00:49:10.036 --> 00:49:14.503
In retrospect, that's extraordinarily damaging, I think.
00:49:14.563 --> 00:49:20.231
That's an extraordinarily unhealthy environment to subject young people to.
00:49:21.333 --> 00:49:25.219
Now you have missionaries coming home really rather frequently.
00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:34.994
In our ward, there was a time stretch when more than half of the missionaries that our ward sent out ended up coming home early.
00:49:35.873 --> 00:49:45.905
And that's kind of stopped recently, although maybe that's because my ward is aging to the point where we don't have as many missionaries going out.
00:49:46.965 --> 00:50:11.375
But my own children, I have twin boys that serve missions, and one of them had a great experience from beginning to end, and the other had a lot of psychological trauma and was diagnosed with a condition called scrupulosity, which is the religious form of obsessive-compulsive disorder.
00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:22.590
Sorry to interrupt you, but just as I'm thinking about this, I think this is kind of an important story to tell.
00:50:27.538 --> 00:50:33.485
So my sons are identical twins, and they were both called on missions to Argentina.
00:50:33.826 --> 00:50:35.608
two different missions in Argentina.
00:50:36.449 --> 00:50:43.657
But they were both called to do two different missions in Argentina and went to the Mexico MTC for their missions.
00:50:44.739 --> 00:50:50.766
While they were in the Mexico MTC, they were in, the MTC was sort of divided into bungalows.
00:50:50.867 --> 00:50:53.989
They have all these bungalows on the campus of the Mexico MTC.
00:50:54.911 --> 00:51:23.012
And in the bungalow where they were assigned, there were missionaries who were doing things that that they still won't tell me specifically what they were, but what I have tried to figure out here is that they were essentially taking pictures of themselves naked and measuring the size of their penises, which is probably not something you ought to do on your mission.
00:51:23.032 --> 00:51:28.541
At the same time, it's stupid teenage boy kind of stuff.
00:51:29.025 --> 00:51:39.697
And the problem is they took pictures of this and they left a flash drive of it somewhere in the MTC that was discovered after they had all left.
00:51:39.998 --> 00:51:45.222
And after my sons had gotten to their mission assignments, these pictures came to light.
00:51:45.364 --> 00:51:54.934
My sons aren't in any of the compromising pictures, but they are in pictures with some of the other missionaries who were in the compromising pictures.
00:51:55.362 --> 00:51:58.106
And so there was this huge investigation conducted.
00:51:58.166 --> 00:52:00.648
A number of missionaries were sent home immediately.
00:52:00.688 --> 00:52:08.059
And one son got to his mission in Buenos Aires, and his mission president said, you didn't have anything to do with this.
00:52:08.099 --> 00:52:10.722
As far as I'm concerned, the matter is closed.
00:52:10.782 --> 00:52:11.344
Get to work.
00:52:11.403 --> 00:52:12.846
Let's not talk about it ever again.
00:52:12.885 --> 00:52:22.673
My other son got to his mission and said, His mission president said, okay, you're in some serious trouble.
00:52:22.733 --> 00:52:38.233
We have to decide whether or not we're going to send you home, and you have to spend all this time studying all of these scriptures on repentance and come and report to me on a weekly basis so I can determine whether or not you are righteous enough to remain on your mission.
00:52:40.315 --> 00:52:47.965
That did a huge number on him to the point where they both came home about seven months in because of COVID.
00:52:48.481 --> 00:53:06.239
The church pulled all their missionaries, and so my sons came home, and my one son that had had the mission president who had condemned him for his unrighteousness was covered in cystic acne, just huge acne all over his body.
00:53:06.278 --> 00:53:09.501
I mean, we saw him get off the plane, and we were just aghast.
00:53:09.541 --> 00:53:13.065
We'd seen the acne to some degree in the video calls.
00:53:13.304 --> 00:53:18.010
We were allowed to do video calls that you and I weren't allowed to do when we were missionaries.
00:53:18.657 --> 00:53:23.362
or the technology didn't exist to do it, but calling home was complete taboo.
00:53:23.382 --> 00:53:30.088
And in fact, in Scotland, we weren't allowed to call home on Christmas or Mother's Day, which other missionaries were able to do back then.
00:53:31.230 --> 00:53:44.262
He comes home and he's just covered in acne and he's just psychologically torn up to the point where the mission was just nothing but a source of trauma for him.
00:53:45.603 --> 00:53:50.472
And after a couple of months, They both get reassignments.
00:53:51.213 --> 00:53:54.876
One was reassigned to go to Tampa Bay, Florida.
00:53:56.018 --> 00:54:00.103
And the other was reassigned to go to Cincinnati, Ohio.
00:54:00.143 --> 00:54:04.407
And the day comes.
00:54:04.588 --> 00:54:07.731
So the one son goes to Tampa Bay, Florida without any problem.
00:54:08.192 --> 00:54:13.197
He's happy, has a great time, actually bumps into some family there that sort of take him under his wing.
00:54:13.257 --> 00:54:15.260
I mean, his mission was just a really great experience.
00:54:16.420 --> 00:54:17.262
My other son...
00:54:17.826 --> 00:54:25.775
It was two days before he was supposed to fly out to Cincinnati, and he finally turns to us and says, I can't do this.
00:54:26.556 --> 00:54:28.217
I can't go back out there again.
00:54:28.237 --> 00:54:29.398
I can't do that again.
00:54:29.438 --> 00:54:40.570
And we get him into therapy, and he stays home for about two or three more months before he finally says, yes, I do want to go back out, and ends up completing his mission.
00:54:40.630 --> 00:54:42.253
Both of them completed their missions.
00:54:43.173 --> 00:54:57.634
But you look at that, and the amount of trauma that missionaries experience is just something that we, you and I, did not talk about and our leaders did not talk about back in our era.
00:54:58.333 --> 00:55:04.661
And I do think the church has made some progress in that regard, but I also think that there is an awfully long way to go.
00:55:05.463 --> 00:55:09.547
So I just wanted to get that on record and I'll turn the time back here and over to you.
00:55:11.228 --> 00:55:13.251
Go ahead.
00:55:14.072 --> 00:55:14.552
No, no,
00:55:14.914 --> 00:55:15.134
go
00:55:15.193 --> 00:55:15.293
ahead.
00:55:16.257 --> 00:55:19.664
I think you've raised a really critical point here.
00:55:20.885 --> 00:55:31.202
Throughout our conversation, we've highlighted some extraordinary benefits and advantages that the church brings to people's lives in extraordinary ways.
00:55:31.242 --> 00:55:35.829
The culture, the teachings, there's so many positive aspects for the church, for sure.
00:55:35.889 --> 00:55:54.945
However, there's a very different side where the doctrines, the policies, the principles, the differing methods of implementing and teaching the principles which change and vary across different geographies, from one mission to another, etc.
00:55:55.306 --> 00:55:58.130
They're all quite different depending on the mission present.
00:55:58.632 --> 00:56:13.034
But there is a serious aspect of church culture that is extremely damaging for all kinds of people, all kinds of demographics in the church, including young people, even in youth and YSA, and certainly going on a mission.
00:56:13.074 --> 00:56:15.719
The expectations on a mission are intense.
00:56:16.699 --> 00:56:23.951
The rite of passage and the pressure on serving a mission is extraordinary, and I don't think that's diminished.
00:56:24.271 --> 00:56:27.657
And then the strictness and the rules.
00:56:27.936 --> 00:56:30.760
We spend three or four weeks in the MTC preparing.
00:56:30.780 --> 00:56:40.115
There's a lot of additional medical professional support now than we had going on missions that bishops and state presidents have access to.
00:56:40.155 --> 00:56:58.494
And I can speak to those services, having served as a bishop and served on state presidency, and the support that young people have prior to going on a mission and preparing a mission is very different to what I experienced growing up as a, you know, a partner growing up in the church as a youth and a YSA.
00:56:58.735 --> 00:57:04.297
And then, you know, the goal of the MTC is There's a lot more support that they have now going to NBC.
00:57:04.398 --> 00:57:12.590
And then they go through all these challenges on the mission, all the pressure that they feel to baptize, to convert.
00:57:12.990 --> 00:57:20.240
They're measured in terms of success, how many baptisms did you get and how successful you were on your mission.
00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:22.443
We were a stone leader, for example, a district leader.
00:57:22.483 --> 00:57:23.905
We had a couple of people in our mission.
00:57:24.646 --> 00:57:26.369
I won't mention the name because you know them very well.
00:57:27.074 --> 00:57:51.188
who communicated to President Banks that he felt a failure because he hadn't made zone leader and President Banks made him a zone leader and exactly the person Thank you very much.
00:57:59.233 --> 00:58:07.585
A psychological pressure of rejection and not being successful and how that looks if he came back home early.
00:58:07.967 --> 00:58:17.920
I have a member of our family, extended family, who, wonderful young man, wonderful young man, has a big heart, just a kind, kind person.
00:58:19.242 --> 00:58:22.628
Got himself into, made a silly mistake, not...
00:58:24.001 --> 00:58:28.969
That different than what you described with your sons there in the Mexican MTC.
00:58:30.072 --> 00:58:36.963
Silly thing, not serious in my opinion, kind of a young prank, got himself involved with others who he was easily misled.
00:58:37.003 --> 00:58:41.150
And the mission president took it completely out of context and sent him home.
00:58:41.762 --> 00:58:43.443
And it completely devastated him.
00:58:43.483 --> 00:58:46.268
And he had to face people.
00:58:46.327 --> 00:58:52.836
And it's been extremely difficult for this person, even now, going to the ward, going to the stake and the rumors.
00:58:52.916 --> 00:59:06.295
And this person came back early and didn't go out and wasn't successful and therefore would not make a successful father, would not make a successful husband, wouldn't make a successful individual in life.
00:59:06.394 --> 00:59:19.134
And unfortunately, because of his lack of strength emotionally, feels, and this person shared his experience with me, feels that his mission, failure, now defines him.
00:59:19.153 --> 00:59:21.016
And that's who he is.
00:59:21.056 --> 00:59:21.818
He's a failure.
00:59:21.838 --> 00:59:22.858
He feels like a failure.
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:29.108
And I've spent time talking to him privately and trying to rebuild him and reconstruct him.
00:59:29.148 --> 00:59:32.034
But he doesn't have any support from the church.
00:59:32.673 --> 00:59:37.159
And so you get all the support going out before you go on a mission, pre-mission.
00:59:37.579 --> 00:59:46.369
You go to the MTC, you've got a lot more support on missions now than we had when we were serving out there to counter all the challenges that young people face.
00:59:46.849 --> 00:59:53.036
And then right at the end of it, your mission stops, you're thrown back into your water, your stake.
00:59:53.637 --> 00:59:54.797
There's no support really.
00:59:54.838 --> 01:00:15.072
It's all down to whether it's the bishop, you know, it's the bishop discretion how much support, but all of the, any issues that they've got, psychological or neurological or physical, et cetera, I don't see anything happening at this end to help missionaries readjust and get back into civilian life.
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You've got this very interesting and somewhat intense and unique experience, preparatory, a lot of preparation here, and then nothing here.
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And that, you know, carries forward forward and affects the rest of your life I mean I think about my mission often for me fortunately it was mostly a success but I also think about some of the dark moments and those remain with me and for purposes of time
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we will leave those successful and dark moments to a future installment until then thank you for listening
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and we'll see you on the next episode of Inside Out