The Voice of the People Doth Choose Iniquity

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Hello and welcome to the very latest episode of Inside Out.
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I'm Ian Wilkes and I'm here with my wonderful, inspiring podcast partner, the one and true only Jim Bennett.
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Hello,
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how are you?
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It is me starting off in the most enthusiastic, excited way, and you are struggling to match my enthusiasm.
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Well, I'm struggling to match a lot of enthusiasm these days, at least these last few days.
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Anyway...
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But I interrupted you.
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You were introducing the podcast.
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That's okay.
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I'm really excited and interested to talk about the U.S.
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election.
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I think it's a major event.
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I think it impacts not just Americans, but people across the world.
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I'd like to get into some of that.
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I'd love to have a, if we can, a balanced conversation about it.
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You know, there are people at all political persuasions.
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But I just want to, again, extend a warm welcome to all the listeners to the Only True and Living podcast.
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upon the face of the earth, in whom the Lord is somewhat pleased, I think, with us.
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We'll see where, you know, we'll try to see what he thinks about what's going on in the world.
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I think if there's any time we need the Lord, Jim, you know, in the second coming, and I said it before, I think now would be a good time.
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I think now would be a good time as well.
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A little bit of housekeeping.
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We have actually recorded another podcast where we continued answering those survey questions, and I want people to listen to know that that we want to answer all those survey questions.
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But we have sort of interjected this because the world has changed dramatically since our last episode release.
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And so we thought we probably need to be able to discuss this.
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So I just wanted to let people know that we haven't dropped the ball on the survey questions.
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We're going to continue to answer those.
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But today we're going to talk about the end of the world.
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That's how I see it at the moment.
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Yes, I appreciate you bringing that up about the questionnaire, because I'm really enjoying getting to those questions at that survey that the church did.
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So again, check back in soon.
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We'll have that third installment of that review of the survey questions there from the church shortly.
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The election of Donald Trump, the 47th president of the United States, and the signing of well over 100...
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Executive orders, 130 executive orders, major decisions.
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And I just noticed there, breaking news, that Trump signs new executive order as part of a crackdown with US-Mexico border.
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I have to say from the outset that I think we can agree that there are many challenges facing America and the world.
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Immigration is not just a problem in US, it's a problem in UK, for example.
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Economic security is a challenge, food security, energy security.
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These are all understandable, common areas of shared concern across the world.
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Right now, for example, here I am in Canada, and the last 10 days, the politicians here have been scrambling.
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We've had a resignation of Justin Trudeau, who I believe Trump is taking credit for, and his demise was well before His demise was in the making for the last year or so because of a whole series of corruptions and scandal going on within Canada.
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Nothing to do with Trump.
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Trump can't take any credit for that.
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Notwithstanding, we're seeing political, significant political changes here in Canada.
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And we're seeing now the threat of 25% tariffs being placed on a whole range of raft of Canadian goods and services.
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And the politicians here scrambling to to try to come up with a solution how to deal with trump uh part two part one point two um so we you know the whole country's talking about it uh my friends colleagues are talking about it it's affecting business here there's concerns about what that means for business for um a whole range of public policies, the economy of Canada.
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Canada is about the tenth size economically of the U.S., very insignificant militarily, economically.
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When Canada goes to trade negotiations with the U.S., the analogy is that Canada is like going to a gunfight with a knife.
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Right.
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The size and scale difference between Canada and the US in terms of power is significant.
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It's interesting because I think Trump is talking about a political union, the convergence, if you like, Canada being the 51st state of the United States.
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So not just an economic union, but a political one.
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That's not gone down very well.
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However, that said, There are people in Canada, many, and me to some extent, open to the idea of an economic union with the United States.
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I see a lot of advantages, a lot of benefits from that.
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So these big announcements, these big executive orders, which Trump has signed, 130 thereabouts, some are very controversial.
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We can look at that.
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The release of the January 6th perpetrators is interesting.
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I'd love to talk about, get your opinion on that.
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You know, when he's got his hand, you know, the oath of the signing in of the oath and the president's speaking the oath there to the presence in the constitution, interesting how it reconciles that with being a convicted felon and then releasing people who committed felony and treason.
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under the law of the US.
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I'd love to get into that with you.
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But back home here in Canada, we were all panicking.
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We're scrambling, panicking, maybe panicking, not yet.
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We'll see.
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He said that tariffs will be implemented February 1.
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Then he's changed the date.
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But there's quite a bit of panic.
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Probably panic is the right word.
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There's concern over the Union of Canada.
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Alberta's broken off and wants to develop its own energy program with the U.S.
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It's concerned that it didn't want to get it by the tariffs.
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So a whole series, a raft of executive orders.
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Some I think are okay.
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We can get into that maybe.
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Some are very controversial.
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But just to get your initial high-level reaction, your thoughts and feelings on this, the election, you know, the first day or so with President Trump and what you think is going on.
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And then we'll go from there and we'll see where this conversation goes.
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Okay.
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I don't know where to start.
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I don't...
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So, again...
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Can I help you?
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Sorry to interrupt.
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Can I help you?
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Sorry, because I know this is difficult.
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Any, you see any good things, uh, forecasted or in the first couple of days, anything good?
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No.
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Okay.
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I mean, the only good I can think of is that it's so bad that maybe it will inspire, um, inspire enough resistance that we'll be able to come out of it intact.
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But I don't even see that because I did not think that Trump was going to be elected.
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I did not think that we were this fallen as a nation.
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And we are.
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And so, no, I don't see anything good within the last couple of days.
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I was texting a friend who I said, I thought this is worse than I imagined it would be.
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And I imagined it would be pretty awful.
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So this is not a political podcast.
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And so I want to frame this in terms of the purpose of the podcast, which is exploring the church from the inside and from the outside.
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And my biggest negative reaction to this is what it says about our church and about our faith.
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And, you know, I've got a bunch of...
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I've gone off of Twitter.
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I no longer go to...
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The only thing I post on Twitter are links to our episodes.
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And my Twitter account is private, so you can only see my tweets if you follow me.
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And I'm not accepting any new followers, and I don't go to Twitter.
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But a friend of mine pointed out that there's an account on Twitter that I don't know.
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It's an anonymous account.
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But they screenshotted me from Blue Sky, which is where I'm posting now.
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And I recommend anybody, you can come find me, jimbennett.bsky.social is my handle and my username.
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But they screenshotted it, and what I had said was, it's a cruel irony that we're inaugurating fascism on Martin Luther King Day.
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And they screenshotted it and they just said, something like Jim is lost to TDS.
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TDS being Trump derangement syndrome.
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And then a whole lot of members of the church were like, oh yeah, he's terrible, he's lost.
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One guy's like, I used to respect him and now he's gone because...
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And as I looked at that, it's the first time I've looked at anything on Twitter for months.
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I just thought, it's not just how far we've fallen as a nation, it's how far we've fallen as a church.
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If people can see opposition to Donald Trump as somehow faithless, I mean, the only criticism, I didn't say anything about the church.
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My only criticism was about Donald Trump, and the criticism I'm getting from fellow church members is, Jim Bennett is faithless because look how much he has disturbed people.
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by Donald Trump.
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And I talk about the crisis of faith that I had after the election and that I'm still having to some degree.
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I mean, I made peace with it.
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I was wrestling with the idea, do I need to quit the Tabernacle Choir?
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And thankfully, we weren't asked to perform at the inauguration.
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I wouldn't have performed at the inauguration.
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Actually, we were asked to perform at the inauguration of Spencer Cox, the Utah governor.
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And I've got no real beef with Spencer Cox, but I chose not to participate in that just because any connection to politics at the moment is not good for my mental health.
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It's just, I've gotten through the time between the election and the time of the inauguration by literally ignoring I won't look at his face.
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I won't listen to his voice.
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And I'm hesitant to even call him by name.
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It's just so loathsome and so loathsome because of my faith, not in spite of my faith, not as a departure from my faith.
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Everything I have been taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints runs contrary to everything that Agent Orange stands for.
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And that's what I'm calling him these days.
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Everything he represents.
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And so here we have the inauguration.
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Here we have the inaugural speech, which I did not watch, but which I have read the news about and I've seen the executive orders.
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And we've already begun preparing for concentration camps, preparing for mass deportations.
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He's going to begin by sending 1,500 troops to the border.
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He is going to send military units into the streets of Chicago to begin the mass deportations, which are contrary to the position of the church, which the church has taken very strong.
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When he was president last time, the church spoke out against his immigration proposals.
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The church's policy positions on immigrations run entirely contrary to what's being proposed now.
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And yet somehow I'm faithless because I oppose this man, this odious, vile, vicious man who has committed sexual assault, who is a convicted felon, who tried to overthrow the government, Somehow my faith is in question because I find this unsettling.
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I'm somehow deranged because I find this unacceptable.
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And it is.
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It's entirely unacceptable.
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So the difficulty I have talking about this as if this is normal is that it is not normal.
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Or it should not be normal, but it has become normal.
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The fact that now all of those charges against Trump have been dismissed because he's now president.
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He will not be punished for his felonies.
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Thankfully, the felonies will still be on his record.
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He can't say he's not a felon, but they waived all punishment for any of that.
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We now live in a country, or at least I live in a country.
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I'd very much like to live in your country because my country now no longer believes in the rule of law.
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My country no longer believes that it's unacceptable to try to overthrow the government.
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He has pardoned 1,500 people who engaged in violent riots that left five people dead and were summarily sentenced for their crimes.
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And he has pardoned all of them, 1,500 people, including people who assault police officers.
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Republicans are supposed to be the law and order party?
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And somebody was asking him, he's like, well, why did you pardon this guy who tased a police officer and put him in the hospital?
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And his only answer was, well, I don't know.
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I mean, we have gone through the looking glass.
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We are on the other side to the point where we no longer believe in the rule of law.
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We no longer believe that decency matters.
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See, this is the thing that drives me nuts about this, is that it's not that I'm politically opposed to him.
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It is that I am morally opposed to him.
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And the fact that people cannot see that difference, the fact that people frame this as, well, here's his one policy I like, but I don't like that policy.
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I'm going to talk about this.
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It's the Bart Simpson, you know, when Sideshow Bob was running for mayor.
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And Homer Simpson goes, well, I don't like his kill Bart policy, but I do like his kill Selma policy.
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I mean, you can't normalize this and not come away damaged as a nation.
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I posted on Facebook that all of us can now remember where we were when America ended.
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And I really feel that way.
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I feel like America has ended.
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It's not like democracy is at risk.
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Democracy essentially is over.
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because we have simply turned over our morality, our decency to a man who has none of his own and is willing to just take all of ours and burn it on the altar of sacrifice to power and mendacity and evil.
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So, you know, So that's my frame of mind.
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So I'm more than happy to answer specific questions and engage in a specific discussion, but I am not coming at this as, well, geez, I'm going to weigh some good policy proposals with some bad policy proposals.
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I'm coming at this with, we have just elected Satan.
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And I can't imagine Satan being a worse person person than Donald, he's just, he's evil.
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I live in a country that has now signed up for fascism and we have an evil, evil want to be dictator who will very likely succeed at being a dictator, I think, as time goes forward.
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So that's where I am.
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Where are you?
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I'm worried about...
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I just wanted to say, by the way, you were right to remind us and certainly remind our listeners that we're not a political podcast.
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We're a religious podcast.
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We need to always make that correlation between the church and state.
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And by the way, I think the church sent two apostles to the inauguration.
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And I give you my natural instinct response from that, and I think it's reliable.
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I think it's very consistent with the way a lot of people might feel, maybe.
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And my interpretation of that is that the church endorses Donald Trump.
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If you don't agree with someone, you don't show up at their inauguration.
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I mean, you deliberately do not show, and you make a statement.
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saying why you're not showing and you don't agree with some of the policies.
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I can only presume that the church, by sending the two apostles, agree with and endorse and support Donald Trump, which is worrying.
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The church says it doesn't take a position politically.
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Does he send to every inauguration then?
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I think it probably does send someone, some representative then.
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Is that right?
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Well, I had a conversation with Mike Levitt, who is the president of the Tabernacle Choir and former governor of Utah and actually a former cabinet secretary of Health and Human Services in the Bush administration.
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And the conversation was about my concern that the choir was going to be asked to sing at the inauguration.
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And he told me that they had not been asked.
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And that if they had been asked, it would have been difficult for us to do it because we were preparing to go to Peru on tour.
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But he told me a story about President Hinckley coming to his inauguration when he was inaugurated as Utah's governor in 1992.
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He was elected the same year my father was elected to the Senate.
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He and my father were very good friends.
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He spoke at my father's funeral.
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And he said that President Hinckley said to him, I want you to know, Governor Leavitt, that we're not here for you.
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We're here out of respect for your office.
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And he insisted, and I believe the church believes this, he insisted that when the choir sang the last time at the Trump inauguration in 2017, that they were there to honor him.
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the presidency, not to honor the president.
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And I do believe that that was the thinking behind what the apostles did.
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And I do think they send apostles to inaugurations.
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I think that this is normal.
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But there's that word again, because we're treating something that isn't normal as normal, which is a problem.
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Somebody else also made the point that in 2020, It took the church three weeks to acknowledge President Biden's victory and to publicly congratulate him.
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They publicly congratulated Donald Trump the day after the election.
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So there's a disparity there in their willingness to just quickly acknowledge, whereas Joe Biden had won the election I mean, you can say, well, the outcome wasn't as certain the day after.
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Well, that's true.
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It was certain within two days.
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You didn't have to wait three weeks, but they did, and they didn't wait three weeks for Donald Trump.
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They very happily and cheerfully congratulated him the day after the election.
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So I don't think church leaders— see this as an endorsement.
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I think church leaders see this as normal.
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But that's the problem.
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That's the problem.
00:22:44.105 --> 00:22:50.672
It was the problem all throughout the campaign that the church treated this like just another election.
00:22:51.272 --> 00:22:52.093
And it wasn't.
00:22:53.013 --> 00:22:54.756
It wasn't just another election.
00:22:54.796 --> 00:22:59.901
This was an election where we voted to end constitutional protections.
00:23:00.421 --> 00:23:14.144
Already, Donald Trump has issued an executive order nullifying the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, which says that every person born in the United States is a citizen of the United States.
00:23:15.026 --> 00:23:19.093
And by executive order, Donald Trump has said that is no longer true.
00:23:19.733 --> 00:23:36.884
Now, this will be subject to court challenges, and it may very well be that Donald Trump is unsuccessful in nullifying an amendment to the Constitution unilaterally.
00:23:38.086 --> 00:23:39.627
But it's not a sure thing.
00:23:39.647 --> 00:23:42.171
This is where we are now.
00:23:42.412 --> 00:23:55.047
We are where, geez, when Donald Trump does something that is on its face blatantly unconstitutional, we don't know whether or not that's going to be held up.
00:23:55.086 --> 00:23:57.630
We don't know if the Constitution is going to continue to stand.
00:23:58.330 --> 00:24:12.117
He has gotten people on the Supreme Court who have told him that what he does is that essentially he is above the law, that he is immune from prosecution, even if he commits criminal acts while he is in office.
00:24:13.460 --> 00:24:16.164
So, I mean, that's terrifying.
00:24:16.204 --> 00:24:19.069
And, you know...
00:24:19.554 --> 00:24:28.904
And the church, we're the ones that continue to say that the Constitution is inspired and that we're the ones who will save the Constitution as it hangs by a thread.
00:24:28.986 --> 00:24:38.057
And here we are handing the scissors to the guy who's trying to cut the thread in as many places as he possibly can.
00:24:38.778 --> 00:24:39.077
I wanted
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:46.586
to talk to you about this, about the relationship between the church and Trump.
00:24:48.348 --> 00:24:48.750
You know, they...
00:24:49.665 --> 00:24:50.727
sent to apostles.
00:24:51.106 --> 00:24:52.048
They've done that before.
00:24:52.147 --> 00:24:54.790
It's fairly common custom.
00:24:55.471 --> 00:24:56.653
We use the word normal.
00:24:56.972 --> 00:24:58.394
Things certainly are not normal.
00:24:58.795 --> 00:25:06.561
In normal circumstances, I can understand the church sending a delegation of leaders, whoever wins.
00:25:06.642 --> 00:25:07.061
I get that.
00:25:08.163 --> 00:25:11.727
It's important the church has a good relationship with the federal government.
00:25:12.527 --> 00:25:19.614
However, it's also important of the church, being the only true church on the earth, to take a stand when things are screwing.
00:25:20.097 --> 00:25:26.809
I'm not normal, and we are living in a very strange, unusual, and abnormal period.
00:25:27.891 --> 00:25:30.977
You asked me for my reaction, my concern.
00:25:31.076 --> 00:25:40.393
As a non-American Canadian, Brits, or you Brit-Canadian here, I'm concerned about the economy in Canada.
00:25:40.553 --> 00:25:45.501
It could have a pretty severe impact on people.
00:25:46.786 --> 00:25:50.369
the Canadian economy as a whole, so that's a factor.
00:25:51.010 --> 00:26:15.781
I'm concerned that the term guardrails that most democratic nations have in place with and for their leaders, in the US those guardrails now I think are being bulldozed down, smashed, changed, modified, reorganized.
00:26:16.769 --> 00:26:24.340
I think it's a radical shakeup of the American political system.
00:26:25.142 --> 00:26:34.236
Those political guardrails, those guardrails that keep presidents in checks, those checks and balances, which you need.
00:26:34.455 --> 00:26:39.202
You can't have one individual who's got supreme ultimate power.
00:26:39.944 --> 00:26:40.705
They end up becoming...
00:26:42.114 --> 00:26:56.474
Like Darth Vader or the Emperor, the Supreme High Lord Commander who dictates every single thing and controls everything, a dictator essentially, an individual who has no respect for law.
00:26:57.376 --> 00:27:13.061
I think when that happens, and it's certainly happening in the UK as well, a lot of laws have been modified and changed constantly you know, our system, we have a parliamentary system, you have a very different system.
00:27:13.461 --> 00:27:19.890
But my concern with the, um, with Trump is, you know, where's the checks and balances?
00:27:19.990 --> 00:27:21.031
Where's the guardrails?
00:27:21.132 --> 00:27:22.452
Where's the respect for law?
00:27:22.472 --> 00:27:28.540
I, you know, when I was watching the inauguration, uh, it didn't, I don't think he put his hand on the Bible.
00:27:28.560 --> 00:27:30.963
No, he didn't.
00:27:31.865 --> 00:27:32.705
He didn't put his hand on the Bible.
00:27:32.726 --> 00:27:46.163
Anyway, the Bible was used as a, a, um, you know, it's always been used, traditional, uh, symbol of truth and divinity and allegiance to God.
00:27:46.182 --> 00:27:53.094
And Trump, as a Christian, he believes that.
00:27:53.193 --> 00:27:57.941
He believes that his life was spared to save America again.
00:27:57.980 --> 00:28:06.013
Angels were watching him and guarding him and making sure that he wasn't assassinated.
00:28:07.009 --> 00:28:13.118
because he needed to fulfill a greater purpose, a greater destiny, and that was God-given.
00:28:13.159 --> 00:28:17.826
So he has a relationship with his faith.
00:28:18.366 --> 00:28:19.409
That's very important to him.
00:28:19.429 --> 00:28:35.473
The two problems I've got is that when he is raising his right hand to uphold the Constitution of the United States and make these other commitments, the first thought I had was, how does that work if you're a convicted felon?
00:28:36.321 --> 00:28:51.701
how do you put your right hand up and support the very foundations of America and the principles from which America was based on, the standards and the values, which were inspired, I believe, in the church.
00:28:51.961 --> 00:28:55.426
You said that the church believes that and holds that position.
00:28:56.167 --> 00:29:01.094
Yet you have someone here who is above the law, who is a convicted felon.
00:29:02.194 --> 00:29:02.976
There's also, while...
00:29:04.673 --> 00:29:12.801
Staying on this theme, there's also Trump's reaction to the sermon that was delivered by the church minister there.
00:29:12.821 --> 00:29:13.702
I think it was yesterday.
00:29:13.722 --> 00:29:16.685
I don't have a name, if you'll forgive me.
00:29:17.086 --> 00:29:18.067
I did watch the video.
00:29:18.207 --> 00:29:19.469
I did send you a message on that.
00:29:20.589 --> 00:29:31.119
And for our listeners, if you haven't seen that, if you just go put in Trump church minister response, the minister, I
00:29:31.681 --> 00:29:32.501
think it was yesterday.
00:29:32.521 --> 00:29:32.682
Yes.
00:29:33.057 --> 00:29:38.304
Her name is Marianne Edgar Budde, or Budde, B-U-D-D-E.
00:29:38.743 --> 00:29:39.825
I'm not sure how to pronounce it.
00:29:40.806 --> 00:29:41.126
Okay.
00:29:41.406 --> 00:29:42.228
I couldn't remember her name.
00:29:42.788 --> 00:29:44.309
She's an Episcopal bishop.
00:29:45.490 --> 00:29:46.112
She's a bishop.
00:29:46.311 --> 00:29:47.073
Yeah, she's a minister.
00:29:47.093 --> 00:29:48.213
She's a bishop for the church.
00:29:48.994 --> 00:30:06.615
She gave an inspiring talk, remarks, comments, communicated directly, looked straight at President Trump in the congregation and talked about Many people in the country are worried, they're concerned, they're frightened.
00:30:08.137 --> 00:30:13.626
She talked about the rights of gay rights and LGBTQ rights, etc.
00:30:13.646 --> 00:30:18.355
And she pleaded with him to show kindness and mercy.
00:30:18.476 --> 00:30:23.284
She pleaded with him to consider kindness and mercy in his immigration policies.
00:30:25.207 --> 00:30:33.349
You know, I can understand to an extent, limited extent, There's a major problem in America with regards to immigration.
00:30:33.490 --> 00:30:34.090
It is a problem.
00:30:36.393 --> 00:30:37.734
But I don't think Trump has...
00:30:38.336 --> 00:30:41.779
This hammer solution is not the solution.
00:30:42.800 --> 00:30:53.634
And the minister there, the bishop there, was speaking about pleading with Trump to take a thoughtful, careful, respectful, and measured response.
00:30:53.673 --> 00:30:54.595
That's what I got from that.
00:30:55.255 --> 00:31:00.183
As I listened to that video a couple of times, I could not find fault with anything that she said.
00:31:00.884 --> 00:31:24.968
However, Trump's comments, he says here that he's found her, he said, President Trump called remarks by the Bishop of the National Cathedral nasty in tone only hours after she delivered a plea to have mercy on immigrant and refugee families and LGBTQ Americans.
00:31:27.682 --> 00:31:28.983
That is disturbing.
00:31:29.525 --> 00:31:40.779
If something like that cannot reach the present United States, then he's, as the Book of Mormon teaches, as Nephi taught, he's past feeling.
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.363
And I think that's the situation, Jim.
00:31:42.962 --> 00:31:44.726
I think Trump is past feeling.
00:31:45.406 --> 00:31:49.492
I believe his relationships are almost entirely transactional.
00:31:52.396 --> 00:32:06.700
And something else I heard on a news commentary that in order to reach him, to connect with him, to engage him, even to have some level of success with him, you have to deliver on his terms.
00:32:06.881 --> 00:32:10.164
And his terms are what's best for him.
00:32:10.184 --> 00:32:24.925
Not America, necessarily, clearly, not America, not American people, perhaps a lot of them, maybe some of them, but if it ticks all over his personal political boxes, it makes him look good.
00:32:26.337 --> 00:32:32.926
And it's clear, and you don't want to listen to him, and I can understand that.
00:32:32.946 --> 00:32:34.670
A lot of the time he grates me.
00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:44.844
But every time he opens his mouth, almost every time, if not every time, he talks about how great he is, and this wouldn't have happened if he was the president.
00:32:45.284 --> 00:32:46.886
This would have happened if he was president.
00:32:47.647 --> 00:32:48.910
And that was his idea.
00:32:48.950 --> 00:33:26.332
It's all about, and it's so obvious to me, directing credit and attention to himself it's a personal ego uh egomaniac is the word i would use he's like a he sees himself as a demigod and if you don't engage him or don't meet his terms or doesn't make him if he makes him look good and powerful and gets him you know everyone talking about him i mean all the mainstream media you know if i go to the bbc and the itv news websites now and other ones that i follow there's a couple in america Almost, not every line, but almost every line and sub-headline is him.
00:33:26.372 --> 00:33:28.454
He's dominating the media.
00:33:29.356 --> 00:33:30.298
And he loves that.
00:33:30.357 --> 00:33:31.740
He loves the media attention.
00:33:32.201 --> 00:33:33.762
He loves the credits.
00:33:34.785 --> 00:33:39.271
Anything else not working, it's because he's not involved and that's why it's failing.
00:33:39.913 --> 00:33:45.121
If it's successful, it's because his hand is in it.
00:33:45.221 --> 00:33:45.981
He's got his hand in it.
00:33:46.883 --> 00:33:51.390
So my reaction, I'm very worried.
00:33:51.682 --> 00:33:52.522
putting it mildly.
00:33:52.563 --> 00:33:58.510
I'm concerned about, obviously, how it impacts my family, you know, our life here in Canada.
00:33:59.913 --> 00:34:02.896
There's economics there.
00:34:02.916 --> 00:34:07.303
I'm concerned that there's a complete disrespect to the rule of law.
00:34:08.445 --> 00:34:09.867
The laws simply don't matter now.
00:34:10.286 --> 00:34:25.030
I think, you know, for someone to commit these kind of crimes and to evade any punishment is, I mean, the Book of Mormon in Alma 42 says One of my favorite chapters talks about the relationship between mercy and justice, right?
00:34:26.050 --> 00:34:30.916
And so when we commit a crime, a sin or a crime, we'll do something wrong.
00:34:31.777 --> 00:34:44.452
The church clearly, and you and I taught this, been taught this, taught this, continue to teach this and learn from this, has a process for repentance and forgiveness.
00:34:45.112 --> 00:34:46.173
So we make a mistake.
00:34:47.425 --> 00:34:48.728
We say sorry.
00:34:48.887 --> 00:34:50.931
Well, first of all, we acknowledge that we made a mistake.
00:34:50.992 --> 00:34:52.072
We acknowledge that we were wrong.
00:34:52.634 --> 00:34:57.681
I'm trying to remember that simple pattern that the church taught, that we taught as missionaries all those years ago.
00:34:58.302 --> 00:35:00.025
We recognize that we did something wrong.
00:35:00.045 --> 00:35:03.731
We say sorry.
00:35:03.891 --> 00:35:04.492
We repent.
00:35:05.373 --> 00:35:06.876
We then try to restore it.
00:35:06.936 --> 00:35:07.878
We try to fix it.
00:35:08.699 --> 00:35:11.103
And then we learn from it and don't do it again.
00:35:11.222 --> 00:35:19.324
And then from there, we learn that hopefully we have, because we are forgiven, we have an improved capacity to forgive others because they make mistakes.
00:35:20.666 --> 00:35:31.579
And we also teach strongly that we obey the law and that we uphold the law and we honor magistrates, kings and queens, and we uphold the law.
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:32.940
That's what we say as a church.
00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:34.161
That's what we teach the members.
00:35:35.362 --> 00:35:40.527
And Trump, unfortunately, lives in a very different world.
00:35:40.588 --> 00:35:41.909
He has no respect for the law.
00:35:43.297 --> 00:35:44.259
He's broken the law.
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:46.041
He's evaded punishment.
00:35:47.262 --> 00:35:57.233
And to me, that defeats and frustrates the fundamental principles, not just of the church, but of the human experience.
00:35:58.375 --> 00:36:00.677
Whereas it's like the law of the jungle.
00:36:01.438 --> 00:36:04.521
You can go and do whatever you want, regardless.
00:36:05.603 --> 00:36:08.746
And don't worry, there are no consequences.
00:36:09.947 --> 00:36:11.028
There are no guardrails.
00:36:11.068 --> 00:36:12.250
There's no accountability.
00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:19.277
And if people are asking questions about your accountability, well, let's deflect them.
00:36:19.336 --> 00:36:20.978
Let's redirect them onto something else.
00:36:21.378 --> 00:36:31.891
Let's talk about those things in order to deflect away from the real intent, the real agenda that Trump has got.
00:36:32.411 --> 00:36:33.853
And so that's my...
00:36:33.873 --> 00:36:38.420
I've got a lot more than just that, to be honest.
00:36:39.201 --> 00:36:41.523
But they're some of my initial thoughts and concerns.
00:36:42.405 --> 00:36:43.405
I want to ask you, Jim...
00:36:43.873 --> 00:36:52.224
What do you think is the ultimate intent of Trump?
00:36:52.985 --> 00:36:53.945
What is he trying to achieve?
00:36:54.286 --> 00:36:59.512
Is he genuine about wanting to make America again?
00:36:59.592 --> 00:37:01.215
And I'm sure there's some truth to that.
00:37:02.016 --> 00:37:06.681
Or is there another motive, ulterior motive here, which is what I said earlier?
00:37:06.762 --> 00:37:18.269
Is it ultimately about him and his legacy and how he marks himself or influences his Position in history is it those two or is it is it those two or is it more?
00:37:18.971 --> 00:37:22.275
What do you think sir behind his motive ultimately?
00:37:22.295 --> 00:37:24.099
What is he trying to achieve?
00:37:26.784 --> 00:38:01.918
That's an actually very simple question to answer This is a man with severe narcissistic personality malignant narcissism malignant narcissist personality disorder and This is a man who is psychologically incapable of empathy, psychologically incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's point of view, and psychologically incapable of anything beyond a transactional relationship.
00:38:01.938 --> 00:38:03.961
I mean, this is a pathology.
00:38:04.663 --> 00:38:06.925
This isn't just that he's evil, which he is.
00:38:07.777 --> 00:38:23.739
It's that he does not have the capacity to care about anything beyond himself and not just himself, but beyond the moment in which he finds himself.
00:38:25.021 --> 00:39:02.438
He cannot, one of the things that was so startling on the campaign trail and still just drives me absolutely nuts is that we overlooked it and didn't care is, for instance, in the debate where Kamala Harris just destroyed him, which it didn't matter because he won, but she destroyed him by getting him to say ridiculous things because he's not capable of letting anything go.
00:39:02.478 --> 00:39:07.965
So All of his advisors were saying, you need to talk about inflation.
00:39:08.005 --> 00:39:09.788
You need to talk about immigration.
00:39:09.807 --> 00:39:11.369
You need to talk about issues.
00:39:12.490 --> 00:39:25.967
And instead, all Kamala Harris has to do is bait him into saying they're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, because he can't let it go.
00:39:25.987 --> 00:39:34.668
And this Episcopal bishop, says, I mean, she was very blunt, but she wasn't particularly cruel.
00:39:34.688 --> 00:39:36.811
She didn't call him names.
00:39:37.313 --> 00:39:38.394
She didn't insult him.
00:39:38.494 --> 00:39:42.884
She said, I hope you will have mercy on all of these people who are afraid.
00:39:42.923 --> 00:39:45.869
And he can't just let that go.
00:39:46.465 --> 00:40:06.387
I mean, he's frickin' president of the United States with more power than any president of the United States has ever had because he has spent the past four years, past eight years, dismantling, as you call them, the guardrails that have protected us from a president's worst instincts prior to now.
00:40:06.588 --> 00:40:09.210
And those guardrails are now entirely gone.
00:40:10.672 --> 00:40:22.175
And so having an Episcopal bishop you know, say have mercy on you should be something you kind of just laugh off and move on.
00:40:22.215 --> 00:40:28.481
Or if you had any shred of decency, something you should actively consider and do.
00:40:29.501 --> 00:40:31.123
But he can't do that.
00:40:31.704 --> 00:40:34.706
He's not capable of doing that.
00:40:34.766 --> 00:40:37.048
He's not capable of empathy.
00:40:37.389 --> 00:40:44.576
He is not capable of envisioning a future of any kind.
00:40:44.635 --> 00:41:21.539
Everything he does is transactional everything he does is to satisfy an immediate appetite right in the moment and this is the this is the one thing that has the potential to save us is that that breeds total and utter incompetence and trump is totally and utterly incompetent so uh What saved us in 2016 and in those four years was that he surrounded himself with competent people.
00:41:22.780 --> 00:41:25.784
And he ended up firing all of them because he couldn't stand them.
00:41:25.824 --> 00:41:33.536
He'll end up firing all the incompetent people that he's just hired because he can't stand it if anybody else is successful.
00:41:33.577 --> 00:41:36.061
He can't stand it if anybody else gets the limelight.
00:41:36.822 --> 00:41:43.983
It is all this black hole of insatiable need Everything he does.
00:41:46.226 --> 00:41:56.400
But the reason why the incompetence won't save us is that he has surrounded himself with people who will encourage it and will execute on it.
00:41:57.021 --> 00:42:03.371
Whereas before, he was surrounded by people who would at least push back, at least to some degree.
00:42:03.411 --> 00:42:09.039
And they get fired, and then somebody else gets hired, and they get fired.
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:13.264
And It's going to continue to be like that.
00:42:13.304 --> 00:42:22.277
One of the things that people aren't talking about as much as they need to, but it shows just how abnormal this is.
00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:32.132
Every president prior to Donald Trump released all their financial information prior to becoming president.
00:42:32.211 --> 00:42:37.420
He's the first president to never, we've never had him release his tax returns.
00:42:38.481 --> 00:42:49.420
But More importantly, they've also divested themselves of all of the investments that would enrich them if they were president.
00:42:49.541 --> 00:43:00.420
If you remember, Dick Cheney came under fire because it took him a little while to get out of Halliburton Oil, where he, I think he was the CEO, or at least he was on the board.
00:43:00.460 --> 00:43:03.606
He had a lot of Halliburton stock and he sold all of them.
00:43:04.322 --> 00:43:27.610
when he became vice president, because he recognized that would be a clear conflict of interest and it would violate the constitutional emoluments clause, which insists that you cannot benefit from foreign governments or foreign nationals paying you if you are president of the United States.
00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:54.199
This is in the constitution and it was completely ignored, Trump's first term, And now it is so blatantly ignored in the sense that Trump created a new cryptocurrency right before the inauguration that is now worth on paper upwards of$3 billion to him.
00:43:54.219 --> 00:44:02.829
I think the total market capitalization is higher than that, but his cut of it, he created$3 billion out of nothing.
00:44:03.809 --> 00:44:15.103
And now foreign nationals and foreign governments can buy up this mean coin as much as they want to and enrich Donald Trump.
00:44:16.184 --> 00:44:23.594
And it's just absolutely the opposite of what the Constitution says is legal.
00:44:24.134 --> 00:44:25.516
And there will be no consequence.
00:44:26.898 --> 00:44:29.340
And there's no mechanism for consequence.
00:44:29.380 --> 00:44:30.382
The only way...
00:44:31.074 --> 00:44:49.737
we can say this is bad is if two thirds of Republicans in the Senate, well, two thirds of the senators, but which would require, you know, at least 20 or so Republicans to impeach him, to convict him.
00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:52.681
And he's been impeached twice.
00:44:54.304 --> 00:44:58.590
Both times it was an open and shut case that he had done what he was accused of doing.
00:44:59.266 --> 00:45:08.177
But since impeachment is a political process and not a legal process, you can ignore blatant unconstitutional crimes.
00:45:08.336 --> 00:45:09.318
This is bribery.
00:45:09.358 --> 00:45:17.507
The impeachment clause says for bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
00:45:18.009 --> 00:45:24.235
But bribery is singled out as the one crime that is absolutely impeachable.
00:45:24.976 --> 00:45:36.639
And here he is setting up a mechanism where anybody in the world can bribe him, and we can see it happen in broad daylight, and he just laughs.
00:45:37.382 --> 00:45:37.961
What are you gonna do?
00:45:39.224 --> 00:45:39.684
What are you gonna do?
00:45:39.704 --> 00:45:40.525
There's nothing we can do.
00:45:41.567 --> 00:45:43.289
And this is now normal.
00:45:44.190 --> 00:45:44.972
This is now normal.
00:45:45.052 --> 00:45:57.369
When we were furious that it took Dick Cheney too much time to sell his stock, we're now at a place where, oh, here, you want$3 billion based on a non-asset?
00:45:57.954 --> 00:46:05.202
that is just a vehicle for money laundering, for people to throw money at you, here it is.
00:46:06.143 --> 00:46:06.523
Enjoy.
00:46:06.543 --> 00:46:08.525
This is where we are.
00:46:08.545 --> 00:46:09.626
This is what is normal.
00:46:09.688 --> 00:46:13.952
This is why I say the United States, it's not that, oh, the country's in danger.
00:46:13.972 --> 00:46:15.574
The country is pretty much over.
00:46:17.036 --> 00:46:19.438
Can we rebuild the country in four years?
00:46:20.159 --> 00:46:20.719
I doubt it.
00:46:21.161 --> 00:46:31.891
But because we're already on track to just destroying all of the rule of law that has held us together as a country until then.
00:46:32.092 --> 00:46:34.675
And it's just going to get uglier and uglier and uglier.
00:46:34.715 --> 00:46:37.201
And I know I'm ranting a little too long.
00:46:37.221 --> 00:46:40.987
One quick other thing, because again, this is not a political podcast.
00:46:41.007 --> 00:46:42.429
This is a religious podcast.
00:46:44.452 --> 00:46:52.385
Latter-day Saints voted for Donald Trump by a margin of two to one.
00:46:53.442 --> 00:46:55.885
I think it was smaller than their margin in 2016.
00:46:55.985 --> 00:47:03.157
I think it was about the same as the margin which Latter-day Saints voted for Donald Trump in 2020 when he lost.
00:47:04.659 --> 00:47:19.961
But two-thirds of Latter-day Saints, roughly, voted for Donald Trump thinking that Donald Trump is their friend, that Donald Trump is a friend to the church.
00:47:20.737 --> 00:47:23.961
that Donald Trump represents the interests of the church.
00:47:24.842 --> 00:47:46.369
Nothing could be further from the truth because the people who enable Donald Trump, the people that Donald Trump turns to for religious and theological advice are people who hate Latter-day Saints far more than they hate Democrats.
00:47:46.949 --> 00:47:53.364
They are more than happy to take our votes When we are useful, take our votes, take our money.
00:47:53.403 --> 00:47:59.617
When we are useful, we are no longer useful to Donald Trump.
00:48:00.117 --> 00:48:07.554
We may be useful to the Republican party at large, but Donald Trump has absolutely no incentive.
00:48:08.737 --> 00:48:11.621
to do anything but screw over Latter-day Saints.
00:48:12.242 --> 00:48:20.231
And remembering that this is a man who is nothing but transactional, is so venal that all he wants to do is get revenge.
00:48:20.793 --> 00:48:24.898
Who does he hate more than anybody else in terms of elected officials?
00:48:25.438 --> 00:48:32.947
Who was the only Republican that voted to convict him in the United States Senate who was a member of the Republican Party?
00:48:34.771 --> 00:48:35.952
That man was Mitt Romney.
00:48:36.012 --> 00:48:37.414
That man was a Latter-day Saint.
00:48:38.050 --> 00:48:50.824
and before, the man is a Latter-day Saint, and before Donald Trump decided he needed Mormon votes, he said awful things about the church.
00:48:50.885 --> 00:48:54.329
His advisors have said awful things about the church.
00:48:54.768 --> 00:49:13.478
And I really think that all of these mega Mormons are in for a rude awakening as all of this stuff comes to unravel and all of the people come to collect from Donald Trump, the favors, the first people to be thrown under the bus are going to be the Latter-day Saints.
00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:15.101
You can take that to the bank.
00:49:17.423 --> 00:49:18.525
So there, there's my rant.
00:49:22.250 --> 00:49:24.733
I'm sounding pretty depressing, aren't I?
00:49:25.494 --> 00:49:25.914
Well, I...
00:49:27.456 --> 00:49:28.858
The thing is, there is...
00:49:28.898 --> 00:49:31.983
You know, a feeling of depression is not unfounded.
00:49:32.003 --> 00:49:33.123
I mean, there's a real...
00:49:33.945 --> 00:49:34.266
This is...
00:49:35.554 --> 00:49:36.474
It's hard to find the word.
00:49:36.514 --> 00:49:39.557
This is a whole different scale.
00:49:39.597 --> 00:49:40.599
It's on a different...
00:49:40.918 --> 00:49:43.702
It's in a different universe.
00:49:44.463 --> 00:49:47.485
It's not even in the same universe.
00:49:47.927 --> 00:49:48.327
It's...
00:49:48.626 --> 00:49:50.648
I can't find the word.
00:49:50.708 --> 00:49:52.070
It's monumental.
00:49:52.692 --> 00:49:53.693
It's cataclysmic.
00:49:54.452 --> 00:49:56.414
It's apocalyptic.
00:49:57.396 --> 00:50:01.400
It continues on the trajectory of some of the things he wants to do.
00:50:01.420 --> 00:50:02.380
It's going to be...
00:50:03.809 --> 00:50:04.871
upheaval.
00:50:05.992 --> 00:50:17.505
I just want to go back to, you were talking a bit about the nature of the man, and rightly so, because he's driven by his nature, you know, the nature of the man.
00:50:17.545 --> 00:50:19.068
We talk about the nature of the man, right?
00:50:19.748 --> 00:50:35.682
And then just going back to what I thought was an extraordinary and very kind and very balanced message from the Bishop Marian Edgar Boudet, if I pronounced it right, you know, who led the National Cathedral Prayer Service at the inauguration.
00:50:35.722 --> 00:50:43.293
She talked about, you know, she urged him to show mercy and to scare individuals, you know, gay, lesbian, transgender children.
00:50:43.313 --> 00:50:53.228
She said, you know, these are children in Democratic, Republican, independent families, some who said were feeling for their lives.
00:50:53.427 --> 00:50:57.494
She talked about the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals.
00:50:57.985 --> 00:50:59.568
They pay taxes and are good neighbors.
00:50:59.588 --> 00:51:04.074
They are faithful members of our churches, mosques, and synagogues, gurdwara, and temples.
00:51:04.715 --> 00:51:11.903
And she also added, God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, but we want strangers in this land.
00:51:11.983 --> 00:51:14.027
I thought it was a beautiful message.
00:51:14.648 --> 00:51:23.960
And then to the nature of the man, in a very lengthy rant on his social media platform, he described...
00:51:26.530 --> 00:51:38.228
Bishop Boudet as a radical left hardline Trump hater, adding that she brought her church into the world of politics in a very ungracious way, and he criticized her tone as nasty.
00:51:38.248 --> 00:51:48.423
He also described the service as boring, uninspiring, and she owes an apology, needs to deliver a public apology.
00:51:49.144 --> 00:52:00.306
That's By any normal standards, just an extraordinary response to what is a very thoughtful and very kind plea to the present United States of America.
00:52:00.347 --> 00:52:06.853
It's not just quiet and looking in disdain, right?
00:52:07.393 --> 00:52:11.257
Putting your head down whilst you're speaking and then leaving it there to what you said earlier.
00:52:11.737 --> 00:52:16.583
The fact is reacting with fury and anger to something like that.
00:52:16.802 --> 00:52:19.306
It just speaks to the nature of the man.
00:52:19.969 --> 00:52:21.130
which you spoke to earlier.
00:52:21.170 --> 00:52:33.306
Another reaction I'd like to get from you, maybe that's not the right word because I don't want to cause you any more discomfort than what you're going through already, but I really would like to get your opinion on this as well.
00:52:35.509 --> 00:52:49.286
That was the remarks that Elon Musk gave during, I think it was just the, was it the just post-election gathering?
00:52:50.050 --> 00:52:53.454
where Trump had been elected, of course.
00:52:54.315 --> 00:53:06.027
And he described the Trump, sorry, Elon Musk described the event as no ordinary political event.
00:53:06.527 --> 00:53:07.889
He said, this one really mattered.
00:53:08.389 --> 00:53:09.510
Thank you for making it happen.
00:53:09.570 --> 00:53:10.012
Thank you.
00:53:10.052 --> 00:53:19.461
He then, he also talked about this being a juncture or a turning point in civilization, or words to that effect.
00:53:19.969 --> 00:53:33.003
And then at some point, halfway through or towards the end of his remarks, he appeared to give what many are calling a Nazi salute, not just once, twice.
00:53:33.224 --> 00:53:34.525
I watched it.
00:53:34.545 --> 00:53:41.811
To me, it appears that as though he thumped his heart first and then he gave the salute.
00:53:44.034 --> 00:53:48.302
And so I was maybe thinking it wasn't a Nazi salute.
00:53:48.362 --> 00:53:49.003
It could have been.
00:53:49.043 --> 00:53:51.568
If it was, it was stupid and disturbing.
00:53:51.608 --> 00:53:54.032
And it may have been a Nazi salute.
00:53:54.072 --> 00:53:54.532
I think we have to...
00:53:54.572 --> 00:53:56.295
I think that also speaks to the...
00:53:57.277 --> 00:54:00.041
The answer to that question is also, is that the nature of the man?
00:54:00.460 --> 00:54:08.813
But he turned around, facing the people behind him, and he gave a second what appeared to be a Nazi salute.
00:54:10.195 --> 00:54:11.277
I was shocked by that.
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:13.981
Even if it wasn't that...
00:54:15.425 --> 00:54:17.128
It's a very stupid thing to do.
00:54:17.668 --> 00:54:21.992
That salute originally, I think, came from the Romans.
00:54:22.353 --> 00:54:24.275
The Roman Empire would give that salute.
00:54:25.076 --> 00:54:30.041
I think it's in one of the gladiator movies where they tap the chest and they salute Caesar.
00:54:30.061 --> 00:54:34.965
I think there's some history with the Romans and the gladiators.
00:54:36.086 --> 00:54:48.510
And of course, with the Nazi party, that was a symbol salute to swear allegiance and allegiance to Adolf Hitler and his cause of fascism.
00:54:50.032 --> 00:54:52.114
And so what was your reaction?
00:54:52.496 --> 00:54:53.677
First of all, did you see that?
00:54:54.378 --> 00:54:54.960
Of course.
00:54:54.980 --> 00:54:57.903
And secondly, what's your reaction to that?
00:54:59.505 --> 00:55:00.547
No, there's no way to miss it.
00:55:00.907 --> 00:55:03.152
I mean, that's been all over the news everywhere.
00:55:03.753 --> 00:55:16.163
The sheer stupidity of Elon Musk, his brevity, I remember the first time I ever heard his name was on The Simpsons.
00:55:17.485 --> 00:55:21.192
He was a guest star on The Simpsons, and he did a terrible vocal performance.
00:55:21.211 --> 00:55:22.793
I remember thinking, this is the worst.
00:55:23.775 --> 00:55:27.402
Whoever this guy is, he's a terrible, terrible voice actor.
00:55:28.463 --> 00:55:29.726
This was several years ago.
00:55:29.766 --> 00:55:33.873
But he was introduced on The Simpsons as this colossal genius.
00:55:35.010 --> 00:55:38.795
who came down in a spaceship to visit Homer Simpson.
00:55:39.597 --> 00:55:41.701
And he was changing the world with his just...
00:55:42.081 --> 00:55:43.543
And I went, I've never heard of this guy.
00:55:43.563 --> 00:55:45.186
I didn't realize he was such a genius.
00:55:46.027 --> 00:55:52.458
If you go watch Star Trek, I think it's either Star Trek Enterprise or it might just be Star Trek Discovery.
00:55:52.478 --> 00:55:56.304
I think it's Star Trek Discovery, which is one of the new Star Trek series.
00:55:57.565 --> 00:56:00.710
They start talking about the geniuses that shaped...
00:56:03.041 --> 00:56:05.445
the history of the future.
00:56:06.186 --> 00:56:15.340
You know, this takes place in the 24th century and they talk about Albert Einstein and Elon Musk in the same breath.
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:17.682
Elon Musk's name comes up in Star Trek.
00:56:17.762 --> 00:56:22.789
And so, and Tesla, you know, is just so amazed.
00:56:23.231 --> 00:56:28.157
So, so initially my, my thought was this guy must be some amazing genius.
00:56:28.478 --> 00:56:30.782
That's how he's being introduced to the world.
00:56:31.425 --> 00:56:33.208
You can't trust Star Trek and The Simpsons.
00:56:33.248 --> 00:56:34.150
Who can you trust?
00:56:35.592 --> 00:56:42.260
And what's become so apparent is that this man is deeply, deeply stupid.
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:51.634
He bought Twitter and ran it into the ground to the point where it has lost something like two-thirds of its user base.
00:56:51.873 --> 00:56:55.478
It has lost more than two-thirds of its value since it was bought.
00:56:56.260 --> 00:56:57.983
He overpaid by$10 billion
00:56:58.422 --> 00:56:58.824
easily.
00:56:59.405 --> 00:56:59.664
Easily.
00:57:00.106 --> 00:57:00.385
Idiot.
00:57:00.898 --> 00:57:02.300
And just an idiot.
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:06.206
And the way he managed it to the point where I can't ever, can't use it again.
00:57:06.266 --> 00:57:12.474
But over and over and over again, this guy says things that are stupid.
00:57:12.534 --> 00:57:14.496
This guy does things that are stupid.
00:57:15.699 --> 00:57:28.938
And is just a profoundly stupid man with enough money, more money than the entire church combined in one pocketbook, the richest man in the world.
00:57:29.762 --> 00:57:33.947
So what he does, what he says, we have to pay attention to it.
00:57:34.027 --> 00:57:39.315
We have no choice but to pay attention to this stupid, stupid, stupid man.
00:57:39.976 --> 00:57:43.202
So I think it is possible.
00:57:44.563 --> 00:57:52.436
I think it is possible that Elon Musk did not realize that what he was doing was a Nazi salute.
00:57:55.300 --> 00:58:19.847
I don't think it's likely because he is stupid, but I don't think he is that stupid not to be able to see the– this is a guy who comments on world events, who has made statements that have been interpreted as anti-Semitic, who talks about his obsession with the Roman Empire.
00:58:19.927 --> 00:58:22.050
Some people are saying, oh, this is a Roman salute.
00:58:22.070 --> 00:58:23.273
This is a Nazi salute.
00:58:23.693 --> 00:58:26.737
Well, yeah, the Nazi salute is the Roman salute.
00:58:27.489 --> 00:58:30.713
The swastika is the Gamodian cross.
00:58:31.614 --> 00:58:34.978
Prior to World War II, the swastika was a symbol of peace.
00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:37.342
It has since been co-opted.
00:58:37.722 --> 00:58:47.393
The swastika was on fighter jets in World War I, American fighter planes.
00:58:47.454 --> 00:58:48.376
I don't know if they had jets.
00:58:48.436 --> 00:58:49.476
I think they were prop planes.
00:58:50.177 --> 00:58:53.262
But the swastika was a symbol of peace.
00:58:54.242 --> 00:58:58.387
prior to World War II and the Nazi party co-opted it.
00:58:58.568 --> 00:59:11.728
And now you cannot use the swastika and say, well, I'm using it in a pre-World War II context, which is essentially what, well, it's a Roman salute, not a Nazi salute means.
00:59:12.329 --> 00:59:19.239
Because first of all, the Romans weren't great folks either.
00:59:20.019 --> 00:59:24.228
But second of all, It has been co-opted by the Nazis.
00:59:25.710 --> 00:59:28.052
The Romans were trying to create the First Reich.
00:59:28.213 --> 00:59:30.614
The Nazis were trying to create the Third Reich.
00:59:31.815 --> 00:59:35.920
They knew exactly what they were doing when they co-opted the Roman salute.
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:42.387
So every single person watching that salute knew exactly what it was.
00:59:42.947 --> 00:59:48.452
So I have to think that Elon Musk knew exactly what it was and did it anyway.
00:59:48.492 --> 00:59:52.157
And The media reports it like, well, gee, that was odd.
00:59:52.197 --> 00:59:53.157
I wonder what he meant.
00:59:53.958 --> 00:59:54.719
Golly, that was...
00:59:54.838 --> 01:00:00.025
I mean, the headlines are things like, odd salute from Elon Musk.
01:00:00.144 --> 01:00:01.806
It's not an odd salute.
01:00:01.927 --> 01:00:03.568
It's a Nazi salute.
01:00:04.048 --> 01:00:06.472
And everybody who saw it knows it.
01:00:07.713 --> 01:00:10.135
And this is the world we now live in.
01:00:10.215 --> 01:00:15.902
We have to say the black is white and down is up and day is night because...
01:00:17.217 --> 01:00:20.282
Elon Musk says it is, and Donald Trump says it is.
01:00:21.384 --> 01:00:23.246
And this is where we are.
01:00:23.286 --> 01:00:31.338
So, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, this is a stupid man making a stupid gesture, making an evil gesture.
01:00:33.340 --> 01:00:43.094
It's not the same as setting up legal bribery for the president or trying to nullify the Constitution with an executive order.
01:00:44.117 --> 01:00:44.737
But it...
01:00:45.250 --> 01:01:03.273
I don't think there is anything else that happened in the last few days that so clearly, symbolically sums up where we are than Elon Musk just in broad daylight declaring that he is a Nazi and declaring this is fascism.
01:01:03.534 --> 01:01:04.456
Because that's what it was.
01:01:04.516 --> 01:01:06.097
It's a declaration of fascism.
01:01:07.139 --> 01:01:12.166
And if he had done that at Biden's administration...
01:01:12.673 --> 01:01:16.579
The first person to scream at him and condemn him would have been Joe Biden.
01:01:17.960 --> 01:01:20.123
If he had done that at George W.
01:01:20.164 --> 01:01:30.318
Bush's inauguration, any other normal politician, Republican or Democrat, you give a Nazi salute at an inauguration and you're canceled.
01:01:30.358 --> 01:01:40.931
AOC did a video, said one of the basic fundamental principles of America is we hate Nazis.
01:01:42.753 --> 01:01:45.458
It's not one of the basic fundamental principles of America anymore.
01:01:45.498 --> 01:01:47.539
We now have to make excuses for Nazis.
01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:48.942
That's where we are.
01:01:50.043 --> 01:01:51.786
When I saw it, I was shocked.
01:01:52.206 --> 01:01:55.490
And then I thought, well, I mean, I saw him thump his heart the first time he did it.
01:01:55.530 --> 01:01:59.677
I thought, well, as I looked into it, I thought, well, maybe he didn't.
01:01:59.876 --> 01:02:01.579
Maybe it was a stupid thing to do.
01:02:01.659 --> 01:02:11.992
And he was using that inadvertently, accidentally, if you like, to show his...
01:02:12.833 --> 01:02:14.416
joy, if you like.
01:02:14.476 --> 01:02:17.800
I know that sounds very naive, and in hindsight, it is naive.
01:02:18.121 --> 01:02:31.059
But when I look into the nature of the man again, it's clear it was something more than just a mistake, or appears to be much more than a mistake.
01:02:31.860 --> 01:02:43.617
Max Keiser, who was the executive officer of the Jewish Council of Australia, said he believed that Musk had unambiguously made a Nazi salute and criticized the ADL for defending the billionaire.
01:02:44.358 --> 01:02:50.708
He said it was clear signal to his rabid white nationalists and neo-Nazi followers that he aligns with their values.
01:02:52.791 --> 01:02:54.934
He also talked about his platform X.
01:02:54.974 --> 01:03:01.764
So this is the executive office of the Jewish Council.
01:03:02.545 --> 01:03:04.329
He said that Musk is well known from...
01:03:04.961 --> 01:03:15.132
I didn't know this actually until I researched it today, but he's well known for promoting racist neo-Nazi content and has recently endorsed the far-right alternative in Germany, the AFT.
01:03:15.152 --> 01:03:17.014
I did hear about that on the news.
01:03:17.994 --> 01:03:19.335
That's the geopolitical party.
01:03:19.436 --> 01:03:24.940
And he goes on to say that we should all be very concerned that the right-hand man of the most powerful person in the world is a Nazi.
01:03:25.762 --> 01:03:33.989
The ADL continues to disgrace themselves by defending most gesture while basically attacking expressions of pro-Palestinian solidarity.
01:03:34.338 --> 01:03:35.380
as anti-Semitic.
01:03:35.699 --> 01:03:44.614
What's interesting, and I didn't know a great deal about that side of Musk, who I agree with you is very stupid and idiotic.
01:03:44.715 --> 01:03:48.440
Even from a business perspective, he's way overpaid for Twitter.
01:03:49.322 --> 01:03:55.893
And a lot of his Tesla operations, when he gets involved, begin to fail.
01:03:55.913 --> 01:03:58.458
I think he's a genius when it comes to ideas.
01:03:59.905 --> 01:04:02.548
But when it comes to running and operating a business, no chance.
01:04:02.568 --> 01:04:03.831
There's no way I would have him in charge.
01:04:04.070 --> 01:04:06.894
Here's me speaking as a non-billionaire, of course.
01:04:07.494 --> 01:04:18.369
What's interesting is, and again, I don't believe that, accept that, on lots of different things, Musk is intelligent because he isn't.
01:04:18.889 --> 01:04:28.822
It's interesting that with the reactions and people seeing that salute, the research and say, well, yeah, this is a Nazi salute.
01:04:29.538 --> 01:04:36.367
Even the people who've looked into it and weren't quite sure at the beginning, and many of them have come to that conclusion.
01:04:37.309 --> 01:04:49.686
What are your thoughts then about the silence of Trump, who's at the moment had not commented, that I can see, on Musk's Nazi salute?
01:04:50.226 --> 01:04:54.693
I knew the question I have is, isn't it correct that the church...
01:04:55.969 --> 01:04:59.795
historically had some relationship with the Nazi Party.
01:05:00.476 --> 01:05:17.295
When the Nazi Party was in power right at the early stages, I think this is even at the time of when Adolf Hitler was getting involved with the Nazi Party, that the church leaders met with the Nazi leaders back then.
01:05:17.416 --> 01:05:25.045
This is before the emergence of the Second World War in 1939, sorry, 1939 to 1945.
01:05:25.793 --> 01:05:30.780
Evidence seems to exist where the church leaders met with the Nazi party.
01:05:31.460 --> 01:05:37.126
And of course, that's before the war and that relationship was in place at that time.
01:05:37.427 --> 01:05:43.795
But my first question is, what do you think to the silence of Trump and Musk's Nazi salute?
01:05:44.536 --> 01:05:46.938
What do you know, if anything, about the relationship?
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:51.324
Did the church have a relationship with the Nazi party in the past?
01:05:51.403 --> 01:05:52.846
What do you know about that?
01:05:53.570 --> 01:05:59.356
Well, to answer your first question, again, it's a very simple answer, is that Trump doesn't care.
01:05:59.376 --> 01:06:03.061
If anything, Trump is happy about it.
01:06:04.103 --> 01:06:15.237
I think you sort of have to put yourself into the kind of feral mindset, the reptilian brain, where everything is, how does this affect me?
01:06:15.838 --> 01:06:17.539
How does this hurt people I don't like?
01:06:18.340 --> 01:06:31.632
I think Trump is just gleeful about at seeing all of the hand-wringing and the complaints because he looks at it and goes, ha-ha, they can't do anything.
01:06:31.972 --> 01:06:34.757
This is more proof that I win.
01:06:34.777 --> 01:06:37.159
I mean, he's won everything.
01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:39.262
It's not just he's won the presidency.
01:06:39.322 --> 01:06:41.925
He ran for president not because he wanted to be president.
01:06:42.385 --> 01:06:45.369
He ran for president because if he didn't run for president, he'd be in jail.
01:06:46.231 --> 01:06:48.634
I mean, there's absolutely no question about that.
01:06:49.494 --> 01:06:52.038
And so now he's won, and now he's untouchable.
01:06:52.610 --> 01:06:58.739
And so I'm thinking that he looks at that and it's not even, doesn't even occur to him to condemn it.
01:06:59.740 --> 01:07:04.989
And it's absolutely, I mean, this is the guy who said that there were very fine people on both sides, remember?
01:07:05.009 --> 01:07:09.394
The neo-Nazis were marching in Charlottesville.
01:07:10.496 --> 01:07:15.184
And so I think he's just, ha, ha, ha, ha.
01:07:16.445 --> 01:07:17.748
So what if it was a Nazi salute?
01:07:17.788 --> 01:07:18.829
Nothing you can do about it.
01:07:19.751 --> 01:07:21.853
And is just relishing it.
01:07:22.050 --> 01:07:26.702
Nothing brings him more joy than the suffering of his enemies.
01:07:27.786 --> 01:07:31.878
Nothing makes him happier than seeing his opponents miserable.
01:07:32.737 --> 01:07:34.780
That's how transactional he is.
01:07:35.360 --> 01:07:40.606
With regard to the church in Nazi Germany, there are pictures of my great-grandfather, Heber J.
01:07:40.666 --> 01:07:50.958
Grant, at some kind of confab in Germany prior to World War II where there is a huge swastika on a flag in the background.
01:07:51.137 --> 01:07:57.324
And that picture has been brandished as proof that the church was complicit with the Nazis.
01:07:58.726 --> 01:08:02.429
I think that that is a gross overstatement.
01:08:03.233 --> 01:08:24.854
because I think the church very clearly, just as the church now sent two apostles to the inauguration, the church then felt it necessary to interact with legitimate government of countries that had members of the church.
01:08:24.914 --> 01:08:30.960
And Germany had a fairly large membership of the church in comparison to other European countries in the 30s.
01:08:32.242 --> 01:08:54.069
And That picture was taken before World War II, before, you know, so I think, yeah, the church was trying very hard to get along with the government of Germany, which at that point had been elected legitimately, the same way we've legitimately elected fascism here.
01:08:54.109 --> 01:08:56.512
And that took a dark turn.
01:08:56.554 --> 01:09:09.346
And I don't think there is any evidence of the church being complicit with the Nazis once the war started.
01:09:09.386 --> 01:09:16.115
Once the war started, I think the church was very much on the side of the Allies.
01:09:17.096 --> 01:09:21.422
But you also have to account for the story of Helmuth Huebner.
01:09:21.903 --> 01:09:25.969
Helmuth Huebner was executed by the Nazis at the age of 17.
01:09:27.970 --> 01:09:32.957
And he had spent a great deal of time opposing the Nazis, and he was a Latter-day Saint.
01:09:34.479 --> 01:09:42.572
To the church's, I think, everlasting shame, he was excommunicated from the church for his activity against the German government.
01:09:43.672 --> 01:09:52.953
So I think that is probably the best evidence that the church was kind of on the wrong side to some degree.
01:09:53.614 --> 01:09:58.681
But I don't think that the church was collaborating with the Nazi government.
01:10:00.203 --> 01:10:06.993
The church was trying to do what they're trying to do now, which is sit on the sidelines as evil takes control.
01:10:08.335 --> 01:10:11.680
And it didn't end well for the church in the 30s and the 40s.
01:10:12.841 --> 01:10:14.564
It's not going to end well for the church now.
01:10:16.046 --> 01:10:16.126
Yeah.
01:10:16.481 --> 01:10:25.858
As we come into the end of the podcast, I want to ask you for your thoughts on what might be the biggest question I'm asking you in this conversation.
01:10:27.900 --> 01:10:35.373
With all that's going on, and we're at the very beginning of the Trump presidency, we're moving at breakneck speeds.
01:10:37.793 --> 01:10:39.336
The speed itself is frightening.
01:10:39.376 --> 01:10:44.400
The lack of attention, poor attention to detail.
01:10:44.440 --> 01:10:45.862
You know, Trump doesn't like detail.
01:10:45.921 --> 01:10:46.382
He said that.
01:10:47.104 --> 01:10:48.966
He is the big picture thinker.
01:10:49.685 --> 01:10:50.948
Detail is not important to him.
01:10:51.648 --> 01:10:58.015
We're seeing a whole series of decisions that are going to impact all kinds of people in different ways.
01:10:59.475 --> 01:11:13.636
What are your thoughts, Jim, on what the role of the church is What the responsibility of the church leaders is at this time in relation to this new Trump presidency, what can it do?
01:11:13.695 --> 01:11:14.476
What should it do?
01:11:14.896 --> 01:11:32.658
What must it do to influence Trump, if it can at all, to hold him to account, to bring some of the guardrails back, to help bring some of the checks and balances back?
01:11:33.537 --> 01:12:05.511
So there's a few questions there, but if I could summarize, what do you think is or should be the role of the church and the church leaders, the prophet, to influence Trump for the better and to bring some of the church values and principles into the conversation to influence Trump and to also communicate to the world that the church is concerned, it has a role to play, It is the mouthpiece of God.
01:12:05.532 --> 01:12:06.854
We have a prophet on the earth.
01:12:08.336 --> 01:12:21.134
And it's looking at the situation very seriously and taking responsibility for its playing position as the only true church upon the face of the earth.
01:12:22.456 --> 01:12:32.029
What's your thoughts on that, the role and responsibility of the church and leaders in regards to the Trump presidency and what can and should and must it do going forward?
01:12:34.369 --> 01:12:38.092
Well, the role of the church is not political.
01:12:39.094 --> 01:12:43.438
The role of the church is to testify of Jesus Christ and to bring people to Christ.
01:12:45.780 --> 01:12:55.229
So in that regard, I do not think it is the role of the church to be the political opposition to Donald Trump.
01:12:56.551 --> 01:13:27.668
I do think it is the role of the church, and I think that it has been the role of the church that the church, has not stepped up to fulfill, which is to educate its membership on principles of basic fundamental human decency to the point where they can recognize the evil that has just taken office in the United States.
01:13:29.712 --> 01:14:03.181
I think where the church, I think, has let us down with regard to Donald Trump is in its treating of Donald Trump as normal, as just another development, as just another partisan difference between right and left, Republican, Democrat, and not as a fundamental threat to not just American democracy, which I really insist is pretty much over.
01:14:03.841 --> 01:14:09.868
I mean, you think he's going to step down after this term?
01:14:10.128 --> 01:14:12.430
You think he's not going to run for a third term?
01:14:12.470 --> 01:14:15.994
What, just because the Constitution says he can't?
01:14:16.836 --> 01:14:21.260
Well, he's already nullifying, he's nullified one amendment to the Constitution.
01:14:21.300 --> 01:14:21.940
What's another one?
01:14:22.020 --> 01:14:24.684
He's taught many times that he's going to run for a third term.
01:14:25.725 --> 01:14:30.310
And he's going to make it so that running for a third term will essentially just be performative.
01:14:31.170 --> 01:14:46.690
Our only hope is that if he dies of natural causes and he's 78, he's overweight, he's got, you know, I think he's a good candidate for a heart attack or a stroke.
01:14:46.791 --> 01:14:53.380
But if he's barely on life support, he will continue to hold power for as long as he lives.
01:14:54.561 --> 01:15:02.724
And I think where the church has fallen down is in not warning us that this is not acceptable.
01:15:03.123 --> 01:15:09.412
If you remember that BYU professor, he posted scriptures outside his door, Mosiah 29, verses 26 and 27.
01:15:09.652 --> 01:15:18.743
Now, it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right, but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right.
01:15:18.823 --> 01:15:23.609
Therefore, this shall ye observe and make it your law to do your business by the voice of the people.
01:15:24.490 --> 01:15:34.975
And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, Then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you.
01:15:35.015 --> 01:15:42.627
Yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction, even as he has hit or two visited this land.
01:15:43.890 --> 01:15:47.836
I think that verse screens Donald Trump.
01:15:48.716 --> 01:15:50.059
Screens Donald Trump.
01:15:50.118 --> 01:15:51.641
That is exactly what we have done.
01:15:51.702 --> 01:15:53.003
We have chosen iniquity.
01:15:53.505 --> 01:15:55.467
We have said, yes, this man raped women.
01:15:56.149 --> 01:15:56.649
We don't care.
01:15:56.962 --> 01:15:58.784
Yes, this man committed felonies.
01:15:59.324 --> 01:15:59.905
We don't care.
01:16:00.506 --> 01:16:06.454
Yes, this man started a riot to try to overthrow the government, and the riot left five people dead.
01:16:07.055 --> 01:16:07.676
We don't care.
01:16:09.139 --> 01:16:10.400
We still want this guy.
01:16:11.762 --> 01:16:12.724
We choose iniquity.
01:16:13.966 --> 01:16:17.371
And because we think that somehow that's going to help us, that's going to be good.
01:16:18.311 --> 01:16:30.685
So the role of the church is not to— lead rallies against Donald Trump, it's to remind people of Mosiah 2927.
01:16:32.287 --> 01:16:33.930
Remind them what that means.
01:16:34.371 --> 01:16:42.362
Remind them of the principles that the United States of America has thrown away with the election of Donald Trump.
01:16:43.264 --> 01:16:45.948
And I don't see the church being willing to do that.
01:16:46.148 --> 01:16:53.037
I see the church at this point in time continuing to pretend that this is normal.
01:16:53.537 --> 01:17:02.447
And I don't necessarily blame them because I think so many people, you know, so many people just thought this was just another choice.
01:17:02.527 --> 01:17:03.847
They just thought this was normal.
01:17:03.868 --> 01:17:14.417
We have normalized so much evil that, you know, I think I mentioned in the last time we talked about Trump that I was in McDonald's the day after the election.
01:17:15.538 --> 01:17:18.761
And a guy walked in and he looked at the menu and he wasn't joking.
01:17:19.783 --> 01:17:21.163
And he said, Donald Trump just won.
01:17:21.243 --> 01:17:22.805
Why haven't the prices come down?
01:17:25.057 --> 01:17:34.140
And he meant it because the way Trump promised that somehow, I mean, now he's saying he recognizes he can't bring prices down.
01:17:34.180 --> 01:17:35.103
He's not going to do anything.
01:17:35.143 --> 01:17:38.992
What he's going to do is pass tariffs that are going to raise prices.
01:17:39.514 --> 01:17:41.137
We're starting a trade war with your country.
01:17:41.698 --> 01:17:44.600
And we're going to drive up prices by 30, 40 percent.
01:17:44.661 --> 01:17:46.762
Inflation is going to go through the roof under Donald Trump.
01:17:47.222 --> 01:17:52.668
But Donald Trump told everybody that Joe Biden was the reason why their hamburgers cost more.
01:17:53.189 --> 01:17:59.996
And so some idiot votes for Donald Trump, walks into McDonald's the next day and goes, how come my quarter pounder still costs so much money?
01:18:00.595 --> 01:18:05.720
I mean, it's just where it's not even just the church.
01:18:07.042 --> 01:18:16.064
All of our institutions have let us down because we we were able to look at iniquity and still see it as a viable choice, as a nation.
01:18:17.105 --> 01:18:22.332
And it's going to be a very, very long time before we recover from that, if we ever do.
01:18:22.813 --> 01:18:25.877
And I look at this, and I don't know that we ever do.
01:18:25.896 --> 01:18:37.511
I mean, this may be the beginning of the kinds of tribulations that can only be rectified with the return of the Savior, because we have botched it.
01:18:38.252 --> 01:18:39.974
We have botched it so badly.
01:18:40.833 --> 01:18:45.962
You know, history repeats itself first as tragedy and then as farce.
01:18:47.063 --> 01:18:48.204
I don't see this as farce.
01:18:48.305 --> 01:18:49.447
I see this as tragedy.
01:18:49.527 --> 01:18:53.873
We are repeating the mistakes of pre-World War II Germany.
01:18:53.934 --> 01:18:55.315
We have elected a fascist.
01:18:55.456 --> 01:18:57.639
We have thrown in with fascism.
01:18:57.679 --> 01:18:58.881
We have chosen iniquity.
01:19:00.063 --> 01:19:08.984
And I think it's the church's role to let us understand that understand the principles.
01:19:09.664 --> 01:19:26.670
No matter where you think the minimum wage should be, no matter what you think the highest tax bracket should be, no matter what you consider in terms of policy, it is not acceptable to choose indecency and think that's okay.
01:19:28.993 --> 01:19:31.938
Well, Jim, I really appreciate having this conversation with you.
01:19:32.177 --> 01:19:33.961
It's a very emotive conversation.
01:19:33.980 --> 01:19:43.948
You know, these things affect our lives in very fundamental ways in America, Canada, for sure, certainly around the world.
01:19:44.609 --> 01:19:46.533
We could talk much more on this.
01:19:47.676 --> 01:19:53.546
I'm reminded by, I think it was President Hinckley that talked about there is safety and security in living the gospel.
01:19:54.287 --> 01:20:27.453
When I heard that, I thought, yeah, if I stick to the gospel, and the gospel, not the mechanics of the gospel or the church mechanics or the operations of the church, but the principles of honesty, integrity, decency, doing the right thing, forgiveness, repentance, owning up when we made a mistake, admitting that we're wrong, we're not always right, having a level of humility, those fundamental principles that Christ possessed and many, many of the people have possessed across different religions over the years.
01:20:28.449 --> 01:20:30.733
lifespan of humans.
01:20:32.216 --> 01:20:36.641
And then to your point, the importance of learning from history.
01:20:37.542 --> 01:20:55.409
If we can't learn from the mistakes of the past and the Second World War and the First World War, if we can't learn from those atrocities, the pain and the destruction of people's lives, if we can't learn from that, then history will repeat itself.
01:20:55.841 --> 01:20:59.367
The difference now is that we're living in a very different time.
01:21:00.228 --> 01:21:01.930
We're living in the nuclear age.
01:21:02.692 --> 01:21:04.935
There were the nuclear threats back in the Second World War.
01:21:04.975 --> 01:21:08.099
Those conversations weren't happening, but they're happening now.
01:21:08.139 --> 01:21:12.244
And it's worrying.
01:21:12.265 --> 01:21:27.904
Without guardrails, without those standards and those fundamental guardrails of the fundamental values and standards that we should live by in order to you know, be decent human beings towards each other.
01:21:27.944 --> 01:21:38.037
Without those, then it becomes a jungle and it's dog eat dog and you then repeat history.
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:45.787
This may have been a very difficult conversation with you, so thank you for having this conversation.
01:21:45.846 --> 01:21:49.532
I definitely wanted to get your opinion and views on these things.
01:21:50.672 --> 01:21:58.974
Just want to remind our listeners that the next installment will be the third part of the survey questionnaire that the church put out.
01:21:59.413 --> 01:22:01.737
We hope to conclude that on part three.
01:22:01.777 --> 01:22:04.238
We hope that you enjoyed this conversation.
01:22:04.259 --> 01:22:06.801
Again, we're not trying to be over-political.
01:22:07.301 --> 01:22:12.868
We are trying to highlight the distinction, the relationship between the church and politics.
01:22:13.609 --> 01:22:28.444
And we also, Jim and I agree, I think if there's ever a time where we need help from the divine, help from God and Jesus Christ and And anyone else who's got the power to help us from the heavens, that time is now.
01:22:28.765 --> 01:22:31.350
So Jim, I want to thank you for this conversation.
01:22:31.371 --> 01:22:33.355
And I want to thank all of our listeners.
01:22:33.435 --> 01:22:39.307
Until next time, we wish you the best from the team here at Inside Out.
01:22:39.788 --> 01:22:40.109
Thank you.
01:22:41.131 --> 01:22:41.672
Thank you, Liam.
01:22:42.454 --> 01:22:42.916
Thank you, Jim.
01:22:43.818 --> 01:22:43.997
Thank you.