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FMC Fast Chat takes you inside the. News so you can be in
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the know in 30 minutes. Hosted by Fair Media Council
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CEO and. Executive Director Jackie Clement,
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Fast Chat features notables in news, media and business.
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Welcome back to FMC Fast Chat. This is Jackie Clement.
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Today we're examining how our rapidly changing media landscape
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shapes democracy, public trust and civic life. Our guest
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isn't just analyzing these issues, she's working to change them.
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Joining us is Natalie Fenton, a leading voice in media reform
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and a professor of media and communications at Goldsmiths
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University of London. She's also founder of the Media Reform
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Coalition in the uk, an organization dedicated to
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tackling media concentration, ensuring journalism in
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the public interest, and building a more democratic media environment.
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Natalie's new book, Democratic how the Media
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Hollows Out Democracy and what We Can Do about it, pulls back the
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curtain on how our media systems struggle and often fail
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to serve the public good. Natalie,
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thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure. So I'm excited
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to speak with you because of your experience and your expertise with
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media and democracy, because these are two huge
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issues. So to talk to someone who brings them both together
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is very interesting. How did this become your life's work to begin
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with? Well, there's a long history
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that goes behind, of course, the demise of what we might think of as democracy
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and the role of the media in that particular downfall.
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And so this research has been ongoing for around 30
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years now. And that has been kind
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of a hamster wheel. I've not been able to get off because the issues
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have always come back and hit me in the face. And so it
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is an endless, even though I feel, you know, like many people,
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kind of quite dismayed with where we are with, in terms
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of, understand. Well, in terms of the practice of democracy
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across the world, in fact, is actually, you know,
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the role of the media in that has shifted and changed during those
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30 years in big ways, but it's been in the same general
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direction. And so an analysis that attempts
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to understand what is going on in those
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worlds. And I talk about not just what we might think of as mainstream
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media and newspapers and broadcast media, but also our
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systems of technology that are also now intermediaries
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in very many ways. So it's really an attempt to
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garner how those mechanisms
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of communication are changing or
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at least contributing to the changes that we're seeing in democratic practices.
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From your perspective, do you see a direct correlation between
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the state of democracy and the state of media, or how does
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that work? It's a complex interrelation and
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I think that it's not just all the media's fault. It is
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very interwoven entanglement, I would say, of political
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forces, of commercial forces,
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and of media change and innovation.
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And part of the problem has been, as we've seen technology
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innovate our media spaces. That has also
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happened in a period of profound deregulation of
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our media, where they have been enabled
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to pursue unhindered wealth. So we've
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seen a massive concentration of media ownership. And of course,
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the tech giants are the largest oligopolies we've ever seen.
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But we can also throw in our legacy media.
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You know, the likes of Rupert Murdoch are still huge
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media moguls exerting enormous amounts of power.
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And no amount, no amount of attempts of which there have
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been some have been able to actually rein
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in that power. And so that has exerted impacts
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on democratic processes and systems in all
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manner of ways. But it has also been because the politicians
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themselves have been on a mission
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to deregulate everything because
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of that notion that somehow democracy is about a free market.
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So it is, you know, and that free market,
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which is no longer free, it's now owned by very few people.
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So it's not a free market. It's not actually a functioning market at all.
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In many instances, it's about the accumulation
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of huge amounts of capital and wealth in very
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few hands. And so we find that supporting
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and entangling with our systems of political representation.
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You know, you just throw in money into politics and it immediately distorts
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and corrupts everything. So you can see how just
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how much this has happened in recent times in the U.S.
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you know, need I mention Elon Musk and the vast
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amounts of money he poured into the Republican campaign,
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you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars
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in order to support a particular political
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direction that will support his own
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business interests in particular ways. So it is, you know,
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this. These are the ways in which, you know, we suddenly
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have the richest man in the world using
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his systems of communication as a mouthpiece
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for a particular political party. And suddenly,
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why are we surprised that liberal democracy falls
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apart? What do you think is the biggest factor
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here? Is it because of the rise of technology and how that's impacted
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media, whether it's news media or the newer digital
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landscape? I think we can go. Before the
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impact of new technology, there was, you know, commercialism has
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engulfed our news media way before new
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technology came along. So, and we have known
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for a long time that the problems with the endless pursuit
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of ever greater profits has had on
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the representation of news as being a plural and
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open landscape. You know, if you, if profit is your
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motive, then you're not driven by the public interest.
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You're driven about, you know, ever greater sales.
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And whether that's clickbait online or whether that's pushing
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sensationalist news stories in broadcast or print media,
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the outcome is the same. I think what we've had with the, with new
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technology coming on board is a complete shift in the
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ways in which newspapers are able to make their money.
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So with the movement from classified advertising, once a
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really major part of the business models of our newspapers,
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into online spaces, their business models fell
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apart. And they've been kind of chasing their
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tails ever since, trying to find ways of
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monetizing their business. And so
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the kind of lure of clickbait has been,
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has been a real driving force. So whereas one,
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we used to say, oh, they run after sound bites and celebrity
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politicians, now we have clickbait also providing
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the engine for that drive.
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So, you know, it's. And that's very
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hard to row back from when you are.
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So commercialism really is the biggest problem.
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If you have a news media that is largely for profit,
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then when that profit is challenged,
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that profit margin is challenged, then you'll
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go to the lowest common denominator in
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order to keep that money flow coming through. And we know
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that online now is, you know,
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those clicks are driven by, you know,
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kind of often deeply polarized and reactionary debates.
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And that's where we're seeing our news media run
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to, because that's what is, you know, it is driving
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the clicks that will give them the meager return on their advertising
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compared to what they once had. So it's lose,
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lose situation actually in those circumstances.
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But it's driven by, you know what, in many ways.
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Why would we expect a news that is driven as a
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business to ever support democracy? You know, we can see
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that it just doesn't function in that way. If we think it's
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crucial to democracy, we should think of it in my mind, in the
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same way as any other public utility. If it's crucial,
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it should be the same as, you know, we support education.
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Education is about, you know, knowledge and understanding. So is our news
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media. So if we allow that to be dominated by a profit motive,
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we'll end up in a mess, which is where. We are now,
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listening to you talk. I'm old enough. I, I grew up in the newspaper
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business when our problem was we had too much money,
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but the bread and butter behind it all was the classified
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section. Yeah, and that also was a great indicator of
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the basic economy. As if you had a healthy classified section,
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you had a healthy economy because people were buying and selling. So it's
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kind of amazing when you think about how that was such a simplistic
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kind of metric on how we were all doing and
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a state of democracy. And as you talk,
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I can't help but also wonder though,
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so much of media now is owned by venture capitalists.
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Yeah. So I don't see that changing anytime soon
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in terms of the profit. Profit motive. No,
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I mean the change, changing. It is really deeply
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problematic, particularly in the U.S. context. Right. Where that this is,
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you know, in the UK we have a much stronger and more
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vibrant public service broadcasting sector which enables
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a slightly different type of news culture and environment grow.
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But in the US you don't have that. And so this is, you know,
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you're in a situation where actually the media
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is being utterly engulfed by commercialism.
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We know from plentiful research in
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the field of medium communications that that is problematic,
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deeply problematic for people's grasp of
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what's going on, their understanding of the world around them
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and their tolerance
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and knowledge of others. It's a really huge problem.
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And one of the things we need to think much more carefully about and
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the US needs to think much more carefully about is if
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we carry on down this road,
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we have a kind of tragic loss of all forms of accountable
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knowledge. Really the only mechanism of accountability is
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profit. So it. And when that is the overriding
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factor, you know, we really are on a, you know,
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a rapid downhill trajectory in terms
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of democracy. Yeah. You know,
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some people call it the post truth era. How did
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we become so afraid of information?
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Well, it's really problematic when you
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have a, you know, particularly an online
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environment where apparently we've never had so much information ever before at
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our fingertips. But actually nobody knows where to go to get
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so called trusted information. And there's a chapter in my latest
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book on trust which says this isn't just a problem of
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news media, it's in fact a demise of trust in our politicians
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and very many figures of authority because
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they've not seemed to be serving democracy well. And when
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those two become ever more entangled. So when we see,
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you know, the likes of our news media cozying
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up to certain politicians, we see our politicians afraid
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of regulating media in certain ways, or the likes
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of Donald Trump refusing to acknowledge the
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relevance of any news media that doesn't support him.
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You know, then, then we have, you know, why would anybody trust
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anything? So it is a collapse of trust.
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More generally, which has something to do with
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the relationship between, you know,
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general people on the ground and their.
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And their understanding that elites are getting away
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with it and elites are just doing whatever they want in whatever
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shape. And the media are part of that elite mechanism which allows Trump
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to pretend he's on the side of the people, to call the elite
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media out. But that, that's only possible because
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of the history that comes before it. And we did just see coming off
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this presidential election, historic spending
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in political advertising and how that impacted
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the journalism that covered it, but also how it continues
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to encourage political journalism that
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continues to divide and polarize us.
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Yeah. Is there anything in history
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that you can compare that to? Wow,
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that's a good question. Is there anything in history that can be
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compared to. Well, you know, we can.
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Propaganda has a very long history. So, you know,
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we can. And propaganda is essentially about
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peddling a message that
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is severely one sided and has
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vested interests at its heart. And so we are seeing
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really contemporary propaganda in many
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of these forms at play. And I think, you know, many scholars are returning
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to the study of propaganda to try and understand the
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current moment. And propaganda, of course,
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is about that kind of
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peddling a delusion, even when, you know, actually,
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you know, it's not real. Which is why I call the
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book Democratic Delusions. You know, this is about
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saying, you know, we know this is not real, but it suits,
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it suits our benefits to peddle it as being legitimate
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and forceful. And the more we do that, the more we'll be
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able to convince people that there's some legitimacy to
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it in certain forms. So, you know, you can go
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back to fascism and talk about propaganda
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of that era and see some very traits
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that are very reminiscent of what we're experiencing right now.
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Because where do people go to really
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establish what they can, you know, where do you go for your most trusted
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information? People used to say, I don't trust anyone but
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my closest group of friends. If your closest group of friends are
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now, you know, a group of unknowns on the dark
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web, that's clearly deeply problematic.
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And that is often where we're finding
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ourselves right now. And we can even go back. You know,
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I mean, I often think that the issue with the Fox Dominion
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trial really is kind of
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illustrative of where we are at now in terms of that profit
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motive. You know, that the Dominion Voting company
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tried to take Fox to court on defamation
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counts for saying that they had peddled a, you know,
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that they had rigged the election in particular ways now.
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And in that process, during Those court proceedings,
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it came out that actually Fox were very aware
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that this was probably untrue, but they were willing to
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literally broadcast that story because they
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were worried that their ratings were going down because
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they weren't taking that very populist view
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that certain other news channels had been willing to go with.
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So, you know, this is. If that's where
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we're at, there has to be some ways
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and means of countering that in particular forms.
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And that's not to say, you know, there's. There's. Whenever you
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have these arguments, you're always met with the. But it's a free press.
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You know, there's. They have to be allowed to say what they want. Well,
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you know, if a free press means the powerful
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being able to say exactly what they want and everybody else having to fall in
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line, that's not really about free speech.
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That's about the powerful over the powerless. And I
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think we've got to come to terms with that in our politics.
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One of the things I've noticed talking with people is depending on
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what generation you are changes your outlook on what
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news is. So baby boomers often asked,
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what the hell happened to news? This is not what I grew up with.
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And they're rather perplexed on how we got here. You know,
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millennials and Gen Z, they don't really know what news
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is because they've grown up in the digital landscape and it's all clustered
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with, yeah, everything else out there on the Internet right next to entertainment
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and misinformation and everything else that's out there.
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And then I'm Gen X and we're just kind of impervious to anything going on
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around us. But when you talk to your students,
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what are their impressions of news today? I think
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they are far more intelligent and engaged than
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often we give them credit for. So those students come in with a very
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skeptical understanding of what news is. But that's right.
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You know, I want them to be skeptical. I want them to be critical thinkers.
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When they engage with our news media,
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they. It's true, they don't have that sense of history
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of what news once was and how we once engaged with it.
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But I'm grateful for that, to be honest. And what I'm. What I'm
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encouraged by is their desire to
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go out there and try and think about how
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news could be different and what is required for
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a news ecology that could actually begin
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to have more legitimacy in terms of being,
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you know, kind of ethically produced news at
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high standards in a manner which would enable that
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news organization to be held to account readily. And we're
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seeing far more students now who are have
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a much more in depth understanding of
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the rhetoric of a free media as opposed to
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actually this isn't a free media. This is just, you know,
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kind of market populism. Actually what we want is
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a media that is regulated for the public good. We want
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somebody who is, you know, a government who is willing to say
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and use media are vital to democracy. And because of that
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they need protecting beyond a first amendment of
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free speech that does something, but actually it doesn't regulate
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news media for the public good. We need something that actually prevents concentration
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of media ownership as well. We need something that enables,
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not for profit, alternative forms of news ownership to
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thrive. And so it's a kind of complex
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environment that won't, you know, that it's unsurprising
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that it's falling apart because of the politics that have enabled
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that disintegration. That'S happened over generations.
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We've watched the ownership cap limits being raised, we've watched the
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ban on cross ownership being eliminated. So the concentration
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did become huge. But also driving
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the concentration was the profit motive. Yeah,
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but now that we don't really have a business model,
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how do we even fathom having an accountable
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media when they can't even figure out how they're surviving
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and how they can survive without being accountable to the
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almighty dollar? Yeah, again,
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it's a really good question, but it's a
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moment of possibility. Right, so if
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we say, actually one of the things that has
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led us to this place has been unfettered capitalism.
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So, you know, the, literally the accumulation of huge wealth in
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very few hands, if we say, well, that's not work, it's not work
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for our news media, so what do we need to do? Well, we need to
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rein it in and we need to think about news media as
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being, you know, paying journalists and being
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profitable to an extent, but not being driven by,
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you know, hedge funds and venture capitalists,
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we need it to actually profit, to be returned
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to the journalistic endeavor, to grow
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and develop a much stronger and vibrant
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journalistic culture. Part of their problem is
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that, that money doesn't go back into journalism.
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It's hived off and goes into the hands of
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very few. So what we need is to go back to basics
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actually, and to really see journalism as rooted
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in communities and as being vital to
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democratic well being. And I'm not, you know,
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I actually think it would be really beneficial to have
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also a funding stream that was, you know, was, were public
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funding Streams that news organizations could apply for to
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be subsidized by if they met certain criteria.
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Okay, so if they could guarantee they're operating
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in the public interest, they can guarantee they're functioning
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with a high quality ethical standards of journalism,
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then they should be able to apply for some forms of government subsidy
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that will enable the government, no interference whatsoever,
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enabling those organizations to function well without the endless
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fear of the financial bottom falling out of that organization.
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Do you see any kind of movement anywhere in the world towards
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improving where we are with the state of media?
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Are there any bright spots? There are,
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there are some bright spots around. I mean,
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any regulation trying to prevent concentration of ownership has
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failed. So there is. We can look to Greece and
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Germany where there's been a little bit of success around that, but not
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a lot. You know, it's very minimal. What we are seeing,
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however, in many places is the kind of
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a huge growth of a more communal,
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grassroots forms of journalism that are starting
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out as saying, we want to be democratic,
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media for democracy. So these are often locally
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based. They are working in very close
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proximity to the communities they're serving. They are
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being run democratically and governed democratically. So their audience,
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the people they're speaking to, has a direct say in their advertising policy,
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their editorial policies, you know, the sorts of things they
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need to see this news organization doing to improve their
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communities. So what they're doing is they're not just seeking
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to hold power to account, but in many instances these organizations
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are addressing powerlessness. And I think that's a
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key change that we need to see in addressing powerlessness.
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They are building trust in those communities,
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as these are organizations that are actually working for us, not against
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us. So they are growing this intra dependency.
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I don't think there's ever been a thing, such a
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thing as independent news. But we always say that's at the nirvana.
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We all need independent use of integrity. That's never existed.
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News has always been relational. It always exists in relations of
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power. And we need to recognize that, but understand it and manage
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it better. And I think this notion of,
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you know, actually communities coming together and saying,
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you know, a great example in the UK is an organization called
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the Bristol Cable, which runs on that basis. We also have another brilliant example
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called the Govern Hill magazine in Scotland which works
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with. It's set up in a news
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hub in the center of the city where it invites
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people of the local city to come in and tell them the issues.
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It works with them to do journalism. It is premised
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on the basis of kind of communicative justice. So it's not,
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you know, it's kind of abandoned that idea of all news has
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to be objective. It's saying no, we need to work with
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communities to deliver social change. And there's
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examples of that in the US as well, where these are happening at
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a grassroots level. And I think they're
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the organizations that I think are the most interesting
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and exciting because they are genuinely trying
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to do the job of a fourth estate, that they're
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genuinely trying to understand what's going
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on out there and to hold organizations
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to account whilst addressing power imbalances that
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exist in society. And that's a shift
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that would really enliven news and journalism.
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I think it would bring back the spirit of what news used
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to be before it was beaten down into survival
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mode. Because I'm a big advocate of journalists
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getting out there into the community. You know, I'm not making phone calls from the
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desk or pretending they're covering a story from 3,000 miles away.
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But off. It sort of leads me back to. I kind of visualize
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the newsroom of today as being set inside a public
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library where you're,
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where you're interacting with, I'll call them real people, not to
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confuse them with journalists because I think a lot of the issues that we're seeing,
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what journalism is, journalists sitting around in a
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room manufacturing ideas, reiterating the ideas
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to each other and in their mind they just second sourced something
427
00:26:57,919 --> 00:27:01,447
so now they have enough to go on to create a story. So,
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so really the, the grassroots element of it,
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how do we encourage that? Yeah, I mean it's so interesting that
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you talk about that because I've had exactly the same image in my mind of
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a public library operating as a space, as a news
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hub where people can come in, they'll say, I have,
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00:27:19,487 --> 00:27:23,635
you know, I'm concerned about this particular issue. They are
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engaged and trained to kind of investigate
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that with somebody within that news hub, a trained journalist,
436
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they're then, you know, but that has to function on the ground, which is kind
437
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of non competitive. So it's not like,
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you know, oh, we've got a scoop here and this is, you know, we need
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00:27:41,863 --> 00:27:46,109
our scoops to maintain that competitive edge. It's about saying,
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how do you know this is a great wrong is being done
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here, how can we right it? And that's the first issue,
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that's the first dynamic that comes to mind.
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Rather than this is going to push a few papers or
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get a few clicks. So it is a, we've got
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to change the notion of how people engage
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with that news media so that it's not about
447
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endlessly going online. And I do think that change will come because
448
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people are hugely dissatisfied with the
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news that they are finding in those online spaces.
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And people want what I call a kind of substantive relationality.
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People want relationships that mean something to them.
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And they want this by, you know, kind of human interaction.
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They don't just want it in a, you know, an online space
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which is endlessly failing them. So if there were
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organizations which is very much like the Govan Hill magazine set up on that
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basis, is we're here. We're here to serve you and to work with
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you to really understand what's going on and then
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seek to change it. It's what I call a kind of
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democratic media for communicative justice.
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And it's that word justice that is key
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to all of that. This is a journalism that works for delivering justice.
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And I think rather than thinking of it as reporting
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in an entirely objective way and not kind
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of taking sides, which was always a nonsense. Right. There's never
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been any. Nobody ever has an
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objective bone in their body. It's all come with. Any decision that's made
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00:29:28,645 --> 00:29:32,357
comes with a weight of history behind it. So this
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idea, and we know that from, you know, endless feminist theorizing,
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there's huge amounts of philosophy that understands
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that the notion of objectivity is.
471
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Is not real. And we know that in our. In online media
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now, that's been allowed to kind of run
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rabid. And so what do we do? How do we address that?
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How do we then say, well, if there is no such thing as objectivity,
475
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where do I go to better understand what's
476
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:06,063
going on? And that's what we're talking about is better
477
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understanding. And it. It's. And that's where you need to
478
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get in those spaces. You need to go to the equivalent of a public library.
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And. And really. And that's where our news media should
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be taking its cultural impetus from,
481
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really. And that's. It's a big shift, a hardship to
482
00:30:25,671 --> 00:30:28,999
me. But even if you just look at your standard research
483
00:30:29,087 --> 00:30:32,431
librarian, they're doing more journalism work
484
00:30:32,503 --> 00:30:35,751
than journalists do today because they're trained in how to
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research and how to ferret out facts exactly where
486
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we don't have a standard for that. You know, and so much with the cutbacks,
487
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with the economy of journalism has been,
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let's hire someone young. We throw them out there. It's baptism by fire.
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You're just supposed to know how to cover a story. And we know that's
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not true. Yeah. And then there's the huge danger of AI of course
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thrown into that. So, you know, it must be the same in the us Here
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in the UK we're seeing more and more adverts for AI powered
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journalism. And it is my anxiety
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with that is what we used to call journalism as people being
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in an environment where they're willing just to churn out press releases instead
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of actually doing journalism on the ground is going to
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be kind of journalism on steroids. With AI where
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simply the material that's out there is endlessly regurgitated
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at the click of a button and nobody has
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any idea whether that was AI powered or not
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and that is already there, then what does that mean for this
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thing called accuracy? Even let alone truth?
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How do we know then? And that's going to
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be, you know, that that's going to cause huge, have huge social
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consequences and that will drive people
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back to other ways of knowing and
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will go back I think to old fashioned forms of
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understanding and knowledge brokering. So I'm wondering if you can leave us with
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a tip or two for the average person who's out there just trying to figure
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this out at home. What do you tell parents, what do you tell
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parents to tell their kids about interacting with media
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today? I think be a skeptical
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and, and be as critical as you possibly can.
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And that means not just being critical about your news
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media but being kind of engaged critique
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of all things political and media related. So you can't
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do one without the other. And I don't just mean having a
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knee jerk anti response. That's not what I'm talking about.
519
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I'm talking about being critical as a means of seeking to understand
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what's going on. So you need to take in as many
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00:32:50,355 --> 00:32:53,747
different sources from, you know,
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00:32:53,851 --> 00:32:57,763
places that have a. You can see,
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00:32:57,819 --> 00:33:02,147
you can trace back where that knowledge has come from. So anything
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which has, don't take anything as a
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00:33:05,531 --> 00:33:09,687
given. And if you can't see where that's come from and
526
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you can't understand what's driving that
527
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opinion or that view, then don't accept it.
528
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And always look for where the money's come from
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first and foremost. Who's funding it, always who's funding it and
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00:33:25,223 --> 00:33:28,919
who serves to gain by this
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particular view being published here.
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00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:38,101
The Fair Media Council is a 501c3. Nonprofit organization
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00:33:38,213 --> 00:33:41,701
advocating for quality news and working to create a media
534
00:33:41,773 --> 00:33:45,037
savvy society. For more information about the Fair Media.
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00:33:45,101 --> 00:33:49,885
Council and upcoming fast chat shows, check out fairmediacouncil.org.
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FMC Fast Chat takes you inside the. News so you can be in
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the know in 30 minutes. Hosted by Fair Media Council
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CEO and. Executive Director Jackie Clement,
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Fast Chat features notables in news, media and business.
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Welcome back to FMC Fast Chat. This is Jackie Clement.
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Today we're examining how our rapidly changing media landscape
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shapes democracy, public trust and civic life. Our guest
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isn't just analyzing these issues, she's working to change them.
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Joining us is Natalie Fenton, a leading voice in media reform
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and a professor of media and communications at Goldsmiths
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University of London. She's also founder of the Media Reform
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Coalition in the uk, an organization dedicated to
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tackling media concentration, ensuring journalism in
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the public interest, and building a more democratic media environment.
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Natalie's new book, Democratic how the Media
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Hollows Out Democracy and what We Can Do about it, pulls back the
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curtain on how our media systems struggle and often fail
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to serve the public good. Natalie,
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thank you so much for joining us today. My pleasure. So I'm excited
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to speak with you because of your experience and your expertise with
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media and democracy, because these are two huge
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issues. So to talk to someone who brings them both together
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is very interesting. How did this become your life's work to begin
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with? Well, there's a long history
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that goes behind, of course, the demise of what we might think of as democracy
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and the role of the media in that particular downfall.
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And so this research has been ongoing for around 30
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years now. And that has been kind
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of a hamster wheel. I've not been able to get off because the issues
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have always come back and hit me in the face. And so it
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is an endless, even though I feel, you know, like many people,
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kind of quite dismayed with where we are with, in terms
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of, understand. Well, in terms of the practice of democracy
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across the world, in fact, is actually, you know,
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the role of the media in that has shifted and changed during those
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30 years in big ways, but it's been in the same general
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direction. And so an analysis that attempts
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to understand what is going on in those
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worlds. And I talk about not just what we might think of as mainstream
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media and newspapers and broadcast media, but also our
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systems of technology that are also now intermediaries
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in very many ways. So it's really an attempt to
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garner how those mechanisms
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of communication are changing or
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at least contributing to the changes that we're seeing in democratic practices.
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From your perspective, do you see a direct correlation between
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the state of democracy and the state of media, or how does
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that work? It's a complex interrelation and
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I think that it's not just all the media's fault. It is
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very interwoven entanglement, I would say, of political
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forces, of commercial forces,
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and of media change and innovation.
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And part of the problem has been, as we've seen technology
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innovate our media spaces. That has also
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happened in a period of profound deregulation of
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our media, where they have been enabled
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to pursue unhindered wealth. So we've
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seen a massive concentration of media ownership. And of course,
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the tech giants are the largest oligopolies we've ever seen.
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But we can also throw in our legacy media.
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You know, the likes of Rupert Murdoch are still huge
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media moguls exerting enormous amounts of power.
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And no amount, no amount of attempts of which there have
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been some have been able to actually rein
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in that power. And so that has exerted impacts
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on democratic processes and systems in all
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manner of ways. But it has also been because the politicians
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themselves have been on a mission
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to deregulate everything because
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of that notion that somehow democracy is about a free market.
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So it is, you know, and that free market,
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which is no longer free, it's now owned by very few people.
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So it's not a free market. It's not actually a functioning market at all.
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In many instances, it's about the accumulation
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of huge amounts of capital and wealth in very
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few hands. And so we find that supporting
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and entangling with our systems of political representation.
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You know, you just throw in money into politics and it immediately distorts
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and corrupts everything. So you can see how just
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how much this has happened in recent times in the U.S.
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you know, need I mention Elon Musk and the vast
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amounts of money he poured into the Republican campaign,
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you know, millions and millions and millions of dollars
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in order to support a particular political
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direction that will support his own
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business interests in particular ways. So it is, you know,
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this. These are the ways in which, you know, we suddenly
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have the richest man in the world using
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his systems of communication as a mouthpiece
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for a particular political party. And suddenly,
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why are we surprised that liberal democracy falls
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apart? What do you think is the biggest factor
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here? Is it because of the rise of technology and how that's impacted
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media, whether it's news media or the newer digital
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landscape? I think we can go. Before the
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impact of new technology, there was, you know, commercialism has
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engulfed our news media way before new
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technology came along. So, and we have known
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for a long time that the problems with the endless pursuit
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of ever greater profits has had on
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the representation of news as being a plural and
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open landscape. You know, if you, if profit is your
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motive, then you're not driven by the public interest.
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You're driven about, you know, ever greater sales.
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And whether that's clickbait online or whether that's pushing
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sensationalist news stories in broadcast or print media,
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the outcome is the same. I think what we've had with the, with new
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technology coming on board is a complete shift in the
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ways in which newspapers are able to make their money.
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So with the movement from classified advertising, once a
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really major part of the business models of our newspapers,
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into online spaces, their business models fell
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apart. And they've been kind of chasing their
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tails ever since, trying to find ways of
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monetizing their business. And so
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the kind of lure of clickbait has been,
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has been a real driving force. So whereas one,
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we used to say, oh, they run after sound bites and celebrity
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politicians, now we have clickbait also providing
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the engine for that drive.
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So, you know, it's. And that's very
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hard to row back from when you are.
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So commercialism really is the biggest problem.
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If you have a news media that is largely for profit,
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then when that profit is challenged,
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that profit margin is challenged, then you'll
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go to the lowest common denominator in
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order to keep that money flow coming through. And we know
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that online now is, you know,
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those clicks are driven by, you know,
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kind of often deeply polarized and reactionary debates.
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And that's where we're seeing our news media run
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to, because that's what is, you know, it is driving
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the clicks that will give them the meager return on their advertising
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compared to what they once had. So it's lose,
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lose situation actually in those circumstances.
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But it's driven by, you know what, in many ways.
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Why would we expect a news that is driven as a
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business to ever support democracy? You know, we can see
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that it just doesn't function in that way. If we think it's
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crucial to democracy, we should think of it in my mind, in the
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same way as any other public utility. If it's crucial,
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it should be the same as, you know, we support education.
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Education is about, you know, knowledge and understanding. So is our news
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media. So if we allow that to be dominated by a profit motive,
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we'll end up in a mess, which is where. We are now,
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listening to you talk. I'm old enough. I, I grew up in the newspaper
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business when our problem was we had too much money,
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but the bread and butter behind it all was the classified
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section. Yeah, and that also was a great indicator of
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the basic economy. As if you had a healthy classified section,
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you had a healthy economy because people were buying and selling. So it's
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kind of amazing when you think about how that was such a simplistic
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kind of metric on how we were all doing and
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a state of democracy. And as you talk,
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I can't help but also wonder though,
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so much of media now is owned by venture capitalists.
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Yeah. So I don't see that changing anytime soon
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in terms of the profit. Profit motive. No,
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I mean the change, changing. It is really deeply
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problematic, particularly in the U.S. context. Right. Where that this is,
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you know, in the UK we have a much stronger and more
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vibrant public service broadcasting sector which enables
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a slightly different type of news culture and environment grow.
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But in the US you don't have that. And so this is, you know,
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you're in a situation where actually the media
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is being utterly engulfed by commercialism.
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We know from plentiful research in
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the field of medium communications that that is problematic,
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deeply problematic for people's grasp of
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what's going on, their understanding of the world around them
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and their tolerance
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and knowledge of others. It's a really huge problem.
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And one of the things we need to think much more carefully about and
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the US needs to think much more carefully about is if
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we carry on down this road,
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we have a kind of tragic loss of all forms of accountable
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knowledge. Really the only mechanism of accountability is
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profit. So it. And when that is the overriding
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factor, you know, we really are on a, you know,
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a rapid downhill trajectory in terms
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of democracy. Yeah. You know,
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some people call it the post truth era. How did
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we become so afraid of information?
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Well, it's really problematic when you
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have a, you know, particularly an online
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environment where apparently we've never had so much information ever before at
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our fingertips. But actually nobody knows where to go to get
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so called trusted information. And there's a chapter in my latest
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book on trust which says this isn't just a problem of
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news media, it's in fact a demise of trust in our politicians
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and very many figures of authority because
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they've not seemed to be serving democracy well. And when
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those two become ever more entangled. So when we see,
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you know, the likes of our news media cozying
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up to certain politicians, we see our politicians afraid
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of regulating media in certain ways, or the likes
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of Donald Trump refusing to acknowledge the
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relevance of any news media that doesn't support him.
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You know, then, then we have, you know, why would anybody trust
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anything? So it is a collapse of trust.
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More generally, which has something to do with
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the relationship between, you know,
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general people on the ground and their.
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And their understanding that elites are getting away
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with it and elites are just doing whatever they want in whatever
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shape. And the media are part of that elite mechanism which allows Trump
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to pretend he's on the side of the people, to call the elite
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media out. But that, that's only possible because
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of the history that comes before it. And we did just see coming off
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this presidential election, historic spending
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in political advertising and how that impacted
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the journalism that covered it, but also how it continues
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to encourage political journalism that
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continues to divide and polarize us.
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Yeah. Is there anything in history
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that you can compare that to? Wow,
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that's a good question. Is there anything in history that can be
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compared to. Well, you know, we can.
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Propaganda has a very long history. So, you know,
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we can. And propaganda is essentially about
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peddling a message that
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is severely one sided and has
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vested interests at its heart. And so we are seeing
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really contemporary propaganda in many
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of these forms at play. And I think, you know, many scholars are returning
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to the study of propaganda to try and understand the
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current moment. And propaganda, of course,
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is about that kind of
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peddling a delusion, even when, you know, actually,
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you know, it's not real. Which is why I call the
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book Democratic Delusions. You know, this is about
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saying, you know, we know this is not real, but it suits,
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it suits our benefits to peddle it as being legitimate
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and forceful. And the more we do that, the more we'll be
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able to convince people that there's some legitimacy to
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it in certain forms. So, you know, you can go
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back to fascism and talk about propaganda
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of that era and see some very traits
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that are very reminiscent of what we're experiencing right now.
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Because where do people go to really
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establish what they can, you know, where do you go for your most trusted
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information? People used to say, I don't trust anyone but
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my closest group of friends. If your closest group of friends are
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now, you know, a group of unknowns on the dark
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web, that's clearly deeply problematic.
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And that is often where we're finding
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ourselves right now. And we can even go back. You know,
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I mean, I often think that the issue with the Fox Dominion
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trial really is kind of
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illustrative of where we are at now in terms of that profit
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motive. You know, that the Dominion Voting company
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tried to take Fox to court on defamation
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counts for saying that they had peddled a, you know,
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that they had rigged the election in particular ways now.
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And in that process, during Those court proceedings,
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it came out that actually Fox were very aware
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that this was probably untrue, but they were willing to
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literally broadcast that story because they
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were worried that their ratings were going down because
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they weren't taking that very populist view
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that certain other news channels had been willing to go with.
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So, you know, this is. If that's where
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we're at, there has to be some ways
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and means of countering that in particular forms.
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And that's not to say, you know, there's. There's. Whenever you
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have these arguments, you're always met with the. But it's a free press.
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You know, there's. They have to be allowed to say what they want. Well,
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you know, if a free press means the powerful
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being able to say exactly what they want and everybody else having to fall in
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line, that's not really about free speech.
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That's about the powerful over the powerless. And I
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think we've got to come to terms with that in our politics.
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One of the things I've noticed talking with people is depending on
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what generation you are changes your outlook on what
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news is. So baby boomers often asked,
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what the hell happened to news? This is not what I grew up with.
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And they're rather perplexed on how we got here. You know,
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millennials and Gen Z, they don't really know what news
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is because they've grown up in the digital landscape and it's all clustered
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with, yeah, everything else out there on the Internet right next to entertainment
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and misinformation and everything else that's out there.
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And then I'm Gen X and we're just kind of impervious to anything going on
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around us. But when you talk to your students,
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what are their impressions of news today? I think
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they are far more intelligent and engaged than
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often we give them credit for. So those students come in with a very
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skeptical understanding of what news is. But that's right.
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You know, I want them to be skeptical. I want them to be critical thinkers.
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When they engage with our news media,
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they. It's true, they don't have that sense of history
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of what news once was and how we once engaged with it.
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But I'm grateful for that, to be honest. And what I'm. What I'm
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encouraged by is their desire to
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go out there and try and think about how
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news could be different and what is required for
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a news ecology that could actually begin
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to have more legitimacy in terms of being,
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you know, kind of ethically produced news at
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high standards in a manner which would enable that
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news organization to be held to account readily. And we're
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seeing far more students now who are have
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a much more in depth understanding of
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the rhetoric of a free media as opposed to
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actually this isn't a free media. This is just, you know,
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kind of market populism. Actually what we want is
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a media that is regulated for the public good. We want
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somebody who is, you know, a government who is willing to say
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and use media are vital to democracy. And because of that
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they need protecting beyond a first amendment of
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free speech that does something, but actually it doesn't regulate
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news media for the public good. We need something that actually prevents concentration
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of media ownership as well. We need something that enables,
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not for profit, alternative forms of news ownership to
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thrive. And so it's a kind of complex
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environment that won't, you know, that it's unsurprising
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that it's falling apart because of the politics that have enabled
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that disintegration. That'S happened over generations.
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We've watched the ownership cap limits being raised, we've watched the
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ban on cross ownership being eliminated. So the concentration
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did become huge. But also driving
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the concentration was the profit motive. Yeah,
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but now that we don't really have a business model,
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how do we even fathom having an accountable
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media when they can't even figure out how they're surviving
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and how they can survive without being accountable to the
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almighty dollar? Yeah, again,
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it's a really good question, but it's a
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moment of possibility. Right, so if
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we say, actually one of the things that has
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led us to this place has been unfettered capitalism.
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So, you know, the, literally the accumulation of huge wealth in
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very few hands, if we say, well, that's not work, it's not work
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for our news media, so what do we need to do? Well, we need to
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rein it in and we need to think about news media as
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being, you know, paying journalists and being
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profitable to an extent, but not being driven by,
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you know, hedge funds and venture capitalists,
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we need it to actually profit, to be returned
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to the journalistic endeavor, to grow
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and develop a much stronger and vibrant
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journalistic culture. Part of their problem is
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that, that money doesn't go back into journalism.
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It's hived off and goes into the hands of
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very few. So what we need is to go back to basics
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actually, and to really see journalism as rooted
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in communities and as being vital to
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democratic well being. And I'm not, you know,
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I actually think it would be really beneficial to have
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also a funding stream that was, you know, was, were public
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funding Streams that news organizations could apply for to
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be subsidized by if they met certain criteria.
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Okay, so if they could guarantee they're operating
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in the public interest, they can guarantee they're functioning
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with a high quality ethical standards of journalism,
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then they should be able to apply for some forms of government subsidy
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that will enable the government, no interference whatsoever,
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enabling those organizations to function well without the endless
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fear of the financial bottom falling out of that organization.
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Do you see any kind of movement anywhere in the world towards
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improving where we are with the state of media?
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Are there any bright spots? There are,
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there are some bright spots around. I mean,
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any regulation trying to prevent concentration of ownership has
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failed. So there is. We can look to Greece and
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Germany where there's been a little bit of success around that, but not
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a lot. You know, it's very minimal. What we are seeing,
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however, in many places is the kind of
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a huge growth of a more communal,
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grassroots forms of journalism that are starting
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out as saying, we want to be democratic,
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media for democracy. So these are often locally
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based. They are working in very close
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proximity to the communities they're serving. They are
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being run democratically and governed democratically. So their audience,
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the people they're speaking to, has a direct say in their advertising policy,
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their editorial policies, you know, the sorts of things they
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need to see this news organization doing to improve their
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communities. So what they're doing is they're not just seeking
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to hold power to account, but in many instances these organizations
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are addressing powerlessness. And I think that's a
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key change that we need to see in addressing powerlessness.
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They are building trust in those communities,
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as these are organizations that are actually working for us, not against
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us. So they are growing this intra dependency.
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I don't think there's ever been a thing, such a
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thing as independent news. But we always say that's at the nirvana.
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We all need independent use of integrity. That's never existed.
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News has always been relational. It always exists in relations of
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power. And we need to recognize that, but understand it and manage
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it better. And I think this notion of,
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you know, actually communities coming together and saying,
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you know, a great example in the UK is an organization called
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the Bristol Cable, which runs on that basis. We also have another brilliant example
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called the Govern Hill magazine in Scotland which works
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with. It's set up in a news
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hub in the center of the city where it invites
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people of the local city to come in and tell them the issues.
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It works with them to do journalism. It is premised
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on the basis of kind of communicative justice. So it's not,
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you know, it's kind of abandoned that idea of all news has
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to be objective. It's saying no, we need to work with
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communities to deliver social change. And there's
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examples of that in the US as well, where these are happening at
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a grassroots level. And I think they're
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the organizations that I think are the most interesting
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and exciting because they are genuinely trying
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to do the job of a fourth estate, that they're
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genuinely trying to understand what's going
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on out there and to hold organizations
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to account whilst addressing power imbalances that
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exist in society. And that's a shift
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that would really enliven news and journalism.
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I think it would bring back the spirit of what news used
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to be before it was beaten down into survival
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mode. Because I'm a big advocate of journalists
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getting out there into the community. You know, I'm not making phone calls from the
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desk or pretending they're covering a story from 3,000 miles away.
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But off. It sort of leads me back to. I kind of visualize
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the newsroom of today as being set inside a public
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library where you're,
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where you're interacting with, I'll call them real people, not to
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confuse them with journalists because I think a lot of the issues that we're seeing,
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what journalism is, journalists sitting around in a
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room manufacturing ideas, reiterating the ideas
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to each other and in their mind they just second sourced something
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so now they have enough to go on to create a story. So,
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so really the, the grassroots element of it,
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how do we encourage that? Yeah, I mean it's so interesting that
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you talk about that because I've had exactly the same image in my mind of
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a public library operating as a space, as a news
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hub where people can come in, they'll say, I have,
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you know, I'm concerned about this particular issue. They are
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engaged and trained to kind of investigate
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that with somebody within that news hub, a trained journalist,
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00:27:31,247 --> 00:27:35,207
they're then, you know, but that has to function on the ground, which is kind
437
00:27:35,231 --> 00:27:38,351
of non competitive. So it's not like,
438
00:27:38,463 --> 00:27:41,831
you know, oh, we've got a scoop here and this is, you know, we need
439
00:27:41,863 --> 00:27:46,109
our scoops to maintain that competitive edge. It's about saying,
440
00:27:46,277 --> 00:27:49,981
how do you know this is a great wrong is being done
441
00:27:50,013 --> 00:27:53,733
here, how can we right it? And that's the first issue,
442
00:27:53,789 --> 00:27:56,781
that's the first dynamic that comes to mind.
443
00:27:56,933 --> 00:28:00,365
Rather than this is going to push a few papers or
444
00:28:00,485 --> 00:28:03,901
get a few clicks. So it is a, we've got
445
00:28:03,933 --> 00:28:07,909
to change the notion of how people engage
446
00:28:07,957 --> 00:28:11,055
with that news media so that it's not about
447
00:28:11,675 --> 00:28:15,163
endlessly going online. And I do think that change will come because
448
00:28:15,219 --> 00:28:18,435
people are hugely dissatisfied with the
449
00:28:18,475 --> 00:28:21,899
news that they are finding in those online spaces.
450
00:28:22,067 --> 00:28:26,587
And people want what I call a kind of substantive relationality.
451
00:28:26,731 --> 00:28:30,467
People want relationships that mean something to them.
452
00:28:30,651 --> 00:28:33,963
And they want this by, you know, kind of human interaction.
453
00:28:34,019 --> 00:28:38,035
They don't just want it in a, you know, an online space
454
00:28:38,115 --> 00:28:42,387
which is endlessly failing them. So if there were
455
00:28:42,531 --> 00:28:46,379
organizations which is very much like the Govan Hill magazine set up on that
456
00:28:46,427 --> 00:28:50,603
basis, is we're here. We're here to serve you and to work with
457
00:28:50,659 --> 00:28:54,195
you to really understand what's going on and then
458
00:28:54,235 --> 00:28:57,375
seek to change it. It's what I call a kind of
459
00:28:57,715 --> 00:29:01,163
democratic media for communicative justice.
460
00:29:01,339 --> 00:29:04,837
And it's that word justice that is key
461
00:29:04,901 --> 00:29:09,025
to all of that. This is a journalism that works for delivering justice.
462
00:29:09,365 --> 00:29:13,829
And I think rather than thinking of it as reporting
463
00:29:13,997 --> 00:29:17,213
in an entirely objective way and not kind
464
00:29:17,229 --> 00:29:20,773
of taking sides, which was always a nonsense. Right. There's never
465
00:29:20,829 --> 00:29:23,973
been any. Nobody ever has an
466
00:29:23,989 --> 00:29:28,305
objective bone in their body. It's all come with. Any decision that's made
467
00:29:28,645 --> 00:29:32,357
comes with a weight of history behind it. So this
468
00:29:32,461 --> 00:29:35,917
idea, and we know that from, you know, endless feminist theorizing,
469
00:29:35,981 --> 00:29:40,293
there's huge amounts of philosophy that understands
470
00:29:40,349 --> 00:29:43,197
that the notion of objectivity is.
471
00:29:43,301 --> 00:29:47,029
Is not real. And we know that in our. In online media
472
00:29:47,077 --> 00:29:50,305
now, that's been allowed to kind of run
473
00:29:50,765 --> 00:29:54,773
rabid. And so what do we do? How do we address that?
474
00:29:54,949 --> 00:29:59,139
How do we then say, well, if there is no such thing as objectivity,
475
00:29:59,277 --> 00:30:02,719
where do I go to better understand what's
476
00:30:02,767 --> 00:30:06,063
going on? And that's what we're talking about is better
477
00:30:06,159 --> 00:30:09,887
understanding. And it. It's. And that's where you need to
478
00:30:09,911 --> 00:30:13,447
get in those spaces. You need to go to the equivalent of a public library.
479
00:30:13,631 --> 00:30:17,215
And. And really. And that's where our news media should
480
00:30:17,335 --> 00:30:21,475
be taking its cultural impetus from,
481
00:30:21,975 --> 00:30:25,647
really. And that's. It's a big shift, a hardship to
482
00:30:25,671 --> 00:30:28,999
me. But even if you just look at your standard research
483
00:30:29,087 --> 00:30:32,431
librarian, they're doing more journalism work
484
00:30:32,503 --> 00:30:35,751
than journalists do today because they're trained in how to
485
00:30:35,783 --> 00:30:39,695
research and how to ferret out facts exactly where
486
00:30:39,855 --> 00:30:43,295
we don't have a standard for that. You know, and so much with the cutbacks,
487
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:46,207
with the economy of journalism has been,
488
00:30:46,311 --> 00:30:50,007
let's hire someone young. We throw them out there. It's baptism by fire.
489
00:30:50,151 --> 00:30:53,631
You're just supposed to know how to cover a story. And we know that's
490
00:30:53,663 --> 00:30:57,435
not true. Yeah. And then there's the huge danger of AI of course
491
00:30:57,775 --> 00:31:01,543
thrown into that. So, you know, it must be the same in the us Here
492
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,799
in the UK we're seeing more and more adverts for AI powered
493
00:31:04,847 --> 00:31:08,391
journalism. And it is my anxiety
494
00:31:08,463 --> 00:31:12,175
with that is what we used to call journalism as people being
495
00:31:12,215 --> 00:31:15,631
in an environment where they're willing just to churn out press releases instead
496
00:31:15,663 --> 00:31:19,333
of actually doing journalism on the ground is going to
497
00:31:19,349 --> 00:31:22,869
be kind of journalism on steroids. With AI where
498
00:31:22,917 --> 00:31:26,985
simply the material that's out there is endlessly regurgitated
499
00:31:27,525 --> 00:31:30,741
at the click of a button and nobody has
500
00:31:30,813 --> 00:31:34,381
any idea whether that was AI powered or not
501
00:31:34,573 --> 00:31:38,549
and that is already there, then what does that mean for this
502
00:31:38,597 --> 00:31:42,465
thing called accuracy? Even let alone truth?
503
00:31:42,885 --> 00:31:46,227
How do we know then? And that's going to
504
00:31:46,251 --> 00:31:49,347
be, you know, that that's going to cause huge, have huge social
505
00:31:49,411 --> 00:31:52,535
consequences and that will drive people
506
00:31:52,955 --> 00:31:56,267
back to other ways of knowing and
507
00:31:56,291 --> 00:31:59,915
will go back I think to old fashioned forms of
508
00:31:59,955 --> 00:32:03,611
understanding and knowledge brokering. So I'm wondering if you can leave us with
509
00:32:03,643 --> 00:32:07,355
a tip or two for the average person who's out there just trying to figure
510
00:32:07,395 --> 00:32:11,289
this out at home. What do you tell parents, what do you tell
511
00:32:11,427 --> 00:32:15,349
parents to tell their kids about interacting with media
512
00:32:15,437 --> 00:32:18,765
today? I think be a skeptical
513
00:32:18,885 --> 00:32:22,261
and, and be as critical as you possibly can.
514
00:32:22,293 --> 00:32:25,477
And that means not just being critical about your news
515
00:32:25,541 --> 00:32:30,717
media but being kind of engaged critique
516
00:32:30,861 --> 00:32:34,877
of all things political and media related. So you can't
517
00:32:34,901 --> 00:32:38,261
do one without the other. And I don't just mean having a
518
00:32:38,293 --> 00:32:41,875
knee jerk anti response. That's not what I'm talking about.
519
00:32:41,995 --> 00:32:45,827
I'm talking about being critical as a means of seeking to understand
520
00:32:45,971 --> 00:32:50,195
what's going on. So you need to take in as many
521
00:32:50,355 --> 00:32:53,747
different sources from, you know,
522
00:32:53,851 --> 00:32:57,763
places that have a. You can see,
523
00:32:57,819 --> 00:33:02,147
you can trace back where that knowledge has come from. So anything
524
00:33:02,211 --> 00:33:05,507
which has, don't take anything as a
525
00:33:05,531 --> 00:33:09,687
given. And if you can't see where that's come from and
526
00:33:09,711 --> 00:33:13,407
you can't understand what's driving that
527
00:33:13,471 --> 00:33:17,079
opinion or that view, then don't accept it.
528
00:33:17,247 --> 00:33:20,687
And always look for where the money's come from
529
00:33:20,831 --> 00:33:25,071
first and foremost. Who's funding it, always who's funding it and
530
00:33:25,223 --> 00:33:28,919
who serves to gain by this
531
00:33:28,967 --> 00:33:31,675
particular view being published here.
532
00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:38,101
The Fair Media Council is a 501c3. Nonprofit organization
533
00:33:38,213 --> 00:33:41,701
advocating for quality news and working to create a media
534
00:33:41,773 --> 00:33:45,037
savvy society. For more information about the Fair Media.
535
00:33:45,101 --> 00:33:49,885
Council and upcoming fast chat shows, check out fairmediacouncil.org.
