Thomas Hübl | Rewiring Fear and Anxiety from the Inside Out

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.080
So when the child develops a new function and it's
2
00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:06.839
being witnessed by the parents and felt by the parents consciously,
3
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.640
it makes it stronger. So the witnessing is an inherent
4
00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:15.000
function that brings us into existence. But if it didn't
5
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.000
have that on the other side, enough only partly in
6
00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:20.800
our life as children, then often we walk through life
7
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:22.839
and we constantly want to be seen or need to
8
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:25.039
be seen. It's not only one to We need to
9
00:00:25.079 --> 00:00:29.039
be seen to confirm parts of us into existence. So
10
00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.640
that function, I think is an important aspect of healing.
11
00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:35.439
As you said, it's the therapeutic relationship is based on
12
00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.920
feeling felt and also being seen. But being seen is
13
00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:42.719
being seen in our specificity, not in a general sense
14
00:00:42.880 --> 00:00:45.719
in who we really are in our intelligence.
15
00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:52.359
Welcome to the Radical Responsibility Podcast. I'm doctor Fleet Mall
16
00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:54.920
and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of
17
00:00:55.039 --> 00:00:58.719
authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insight from
18
00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:04.120
leading experts to a floor trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology,
19
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:08.840
and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This
20
00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:12.480
is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change,
21
00:01:12.560 --> 00:01:15.439
helping you find alignment with the person you are always
22
00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:24.680
meant to be. Let's get started. What if transformation isn't
23
00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:29.079
just about thinking differently, but feeling differently. Science shows us
24
00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:32.319
that true change happens when we align not just our minds,
25
00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.920
but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts.
26
00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:40.319
This heart mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience,
27
00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:44.000
and expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind
28
00:01:44.200 --> 00:01:47.640
all access, membership, and community, a space designed to help
29
00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:51.799
you rewire your nervous system, cultivate heart intelligence, and live
30
00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.879
with greater clarity and purpose. With over one thousand hours
31
00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:01.200
of transformational teachings specifically curated to meet your needs, You'll
32
00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:07.400
learn from world renowned meditation teachers, neuroscientists, and experts in neuroplasticity,
33
00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.479
all sharing powerful tools to help you shift your mindset
34
00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:16.400
and heartset, regulate your emotions, and unlock your full potential.
35
00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.759
You'll also gain unlimited access to every summit and course
36
00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:24.280
we've ever produced, a treasure Trouble Wisdom worth over ten
37
00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:28.159
thousand dollars in growing plus live gatherings, and an inspiring
38
00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:31.800
global community to support your journey. If you're ready to
39
00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:35.080
step into a more heart centered, connected and conscious life.
40
00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.639
I invite you to join us. Clip the link to
41
00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:41.039
learn more and start your journey today. My name is
42
00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:43.639
doctor Fleet Mall, your co host for the session, and
43
00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:45.840
I'm thrilled to be here today with a longtime friend
44
00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.159
and colleague Thomas. You will welcome Thomas.
45
00:02:48.240 --> 00:02:50.280
Hello Fleets, good to see her again.
46
00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:52.960
Always great to be with you, Thomas, and looking forward
47
00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:56.840
to this conversation. So, Thomas, I'm wondering, since our theme
48
00:02:56.879 --> 00:03:00.759
today is how we can rewire our brain, so reshape
49
00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.000
our neural architecture to both heal and work with the
50
00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.039
fear and anxiety that are part of light. So I'm
51
00:03:06.039 --> 00:03:07.800
wanting to begin with it. You might be able to
52
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.919
share a pivotal moment in your life when you were
53
00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.479
experiencing a great deal of fear or anxiety, and how
54
00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:17.000
you work with that, maybe how that in part influenced
55
00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:18.520
the direction of your work altogether.
56
00:03:19.240 --> 00:03:22.599
That's an interesting question. Fear in my life, I think
57
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:26.800
one of the more recent or recent ones. I live
58
00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.199
since some years in Tel Aviv, and we had multiple
59
00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:34.960
waves of like worse situations in the last years and
60
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.080
now there is a longer term war. But also before
61
00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:41.639
and since I grew up in Vienna, I wasn't used
62
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:44.879
to worse situations. So when the first time we had
63
00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:49.000
this like series two weeks of Missilo texts and sirens,
64
00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:52.039
so of course that brought up fear in me. But
65
00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:55.639
I felt that also what I'm teaching and also what
66
00:03:55.719 --> 00:04:01.280
I'm like my long term meditation practice really were very helpful.
67
00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.360
So not to get stuck in the fear, stuck in
68
00:04:04.400 --> 00:04:07.199
the fear gets stuck in my body, but actually to
69
00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:11.159
keep it fluid and to keep working on it and
70
00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:14.800
with it, to keep it as a movement and as
71
00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:18.199
an experience. And I felt that the more I really
72
00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.720
stay with the stress at the beginning of this experience
73
00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:24.279
and the fear, it helped me to stay with it.
74
00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.160
And I could feel how my nervous system actually de
75
00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:31.439
escalates the stress and de escalates the fear. And it
76
00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.399
became more and more clear that every time there was
77
00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.160
a wave like that and I could stay present with
78
00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:39.560
it and don't try to not have it and see
79
00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:43.839
it as a disturbance, it actually helped me to somehow
80
00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:47.560
digest the fears and integrate them, and that kind of
81
00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:52.240
decreased over time, those waves, and now it feels like
82
00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.439
very fluid in me, so that those fears don't come
83
00:04:55.519 --> 00:04:58.160
up anymore. But I felt the work that I did
84
00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:02.839
really helped that process, that it created more stability or presence,
85
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:07.240
more relationship to the moment, and also that it helped
86
00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:09.959
me us in my work to work with people that
87
00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.279
experience worse situations or the threats of these kind of
88
00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:17.560
situations in a different way. So maybe that's a good example.
89
00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:20.639
Yeah, I think so. And as you were describing it,
90
00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:23.959
it sounds like your ability because of your practice and training,
91
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.360
to be with the fear and anxiety. So it was
92
00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:28.399
coming up to not repress it or try to get
93
00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.800
away from it, but to be with it, not try
94
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.079
to change it, but being with it, And somehow through
95
00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:37.319
that process kind of actually increased your capacity to be
96
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:40.879
with fear and anxiety in some ways increase your level
97
00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:42.959
of tolerance or your ability to be with or your
98
00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.480
actually so in some sense, we could fear certainly part
99
00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.160
of life, where it's part of our biology, and anxiety
100
00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:52.079
comes and goes depending on for a lot of different reasons.
101
00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:54.680
But in some ways this could be rather than being
102
00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:56.680
a problem or an obstacle, it could almost be a
103
00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:00.000
fuel for growth in the way you were describing it.
104
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.079
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean I see it completely that way.
105
00:06:03.160 --> 00:06:06.360
I experience it that way through all my practice. I'm
106
00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.279
practicing I don't know meditation now, and in know work
107
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:13.839
for thirty thirty five years, and I definitely would sign
108
00:06:13.959 --> 00:06:16.759
what you just said that it's part of life. It's
109
00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:19.600
like we often have those judgments on it at first,
110
00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.399
but the more we learn to work with it, it
111
00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:26.199
becomes a fuel and it actually changes and then we say, oh, emotions,
112
00:06:26.199 --> 00:06:28.639
the ways they come and if they can run through,
113
00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:32.439
they can live again. And our capacity to be with
114
00:06:32.720 --> 00:06:35.399
is growing, and that's why the cup is bigger and
115
00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:39.040
the fear is smaller. That definitely is my life experience too.
116
00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.279
So our focus is the relationship between trauma and peer
117
00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:47.279
and anxiety, and then how you know, experiencing peer anxiety
118
00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:49.720
could then be the beginning point of doing the work
119
00:06:49.720 --> 00:06:53.399
to identifying healer trauma and so forth, and so just
120
00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:57.040
both the cusural relationship and then the healing relationship and
121
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:59.959
so as you will know, trauma often leaves an imprint
122
00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:03.199
on our nervous system. It can be seen as patterns
123
00:07:03.319 --> 00:07:07.000
kind of struck patterns of dysregulation. And then can be
124
00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:10.920
triggered by various associative things and so forth, or can
125
00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.759
just be very debilitating in an ongoing way. And what's
126
00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.240
as functions both as individuals and later I think we
127
00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:20.120
can talk about the collective part of this as well,
128
00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:22.399
which is so much what your workers about. But I
129
00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.000
wonder if you could talk a little bit about trauma
130
00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.759
and how that maybe exacerbates the experience of fear and
131
00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.720
anxiety for people, and then how that relates to our
132
00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.680
healing process.
133
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:34.399
So let's put this. I need to expand a bit
134
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.560
the window to bring in like the understanding of trauma.
135
00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:41.240
So one is, at least in my understanding, what I've
136
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:45.399
learned over the years is that trauma is a frozen
137
00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:50.000
experience in our nervous system. So in the traumatic moment,
138
00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.360
the trauma response protects us. So first of all, it's
139
00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:57.920
an intelligent function. Secondly, the overwhelm and the part it
140
00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.079
was too much in this moment and it gets shut down.
141
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.480
It gets frozen in time. I think that's important. So
142
00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:07.120
when the trauma happened, there is like a file being
143
00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:10.680
created on a hard disk in our nervous system that
144
00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:13.360
has a lot of data now inside. But that data
145
00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:15.920
is numb. It's like an anesthesia. It's numb, and it's
146
00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:19.519
pushed into unconscious. So from that unconscious all kinds of
147
00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:22.439
symptoms come out. So when people say I feel my trauma,
148
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:25.319
I think that's not really the right articulation. What they
149
00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:29.319
feel is the symptom are the symptoms that their trauma creates,
150
00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:31.920
because the trauma is here, but something comes out of
151
00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.840
here all the time. But this is not visible and
152
00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:38.159
it's not palpable, So we can't feel the actual trauma.
153
00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:41.399
We feel the symptoms. And we need to also take
154
00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:44.320
an account that trauma didn't start with us. So there's
155
00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:49.279
our childhood and our development and maybe potential trauma lata
156
00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:51.919
in our life. There is our ancestry, and then there's
157
00:08:51.960 --> 00:08:55.039
the cultural field that we have been born into. All
158
00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:58.799
of it can store and hold trauma. That's important. So
159
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:01.480
sometimes when we feel anxiety it comes more from the
160
00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:06.720
personal development. Sometimes anxiety comes already through our ancestors. They
161
00:09:06.799 --> 00:09:09.360
carried a lot of undigested fear and we have been
162
00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:15.039
born into that epigenetically, psychologically, family wise, culturally, and so
163
00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:18.679
when we and I think that's important because when we
164
00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.480
work with the fears or the symptoms that trauma creates
165
00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:26.159
I think a tunement and the capacity to be really
166
00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:30.879
dialed in to the various files we are working with
167
00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:36.080
is very important. So trauma will definitely, you know, have
168
00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:40.039
undigested fear and through life circumstances that might be triggered
169
00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:43.240
as you said, and that might be very disturbing, but
170
00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:46.679
it's an overlay. So there's my current reality and then
171
00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.960
there is my past overshadowing my current reality, and that's
172
00:09:50.960 --> 00:09:55.039
often hard to discern. So saying all of that means
173
00:09:55.399 --> 00:10:00.120
that our system periodically, like in a loop, tries to
174
00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:05.399
detox originally suppressed material. So the repetition compulsion that Sigmund
175
00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.799
Freud was talking about is actually a mechanism to bring
176
00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:11.879
something back up into our awareness. But of course that's
177
00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:15.240
often not happening because we used to keep it down.
178
00:10:15.799 --> 00:10:19.240
That's why I think we need to find ways how
179
00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:24.399
to slowly, in an adequate way, learn to open ourselves
180
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.879
up to these cycles and integrate those emotions and that
181
00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:31.799
stress as I a little bit as I described it before,
182
00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.840
and then we see that over time we actually decrease
183
00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.799
those waves that are coming. They become smaller and smaller.
184
00:10:39.840 --> 00:10:41.799
And if my aim is not just how can I
185
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.080
get rid of my fear versus how can I learn
186
00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.960
to integrate my fear and that my fear is not
187
00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:51.440
the weakness, but it's a human emotion that is maybe
188
00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:54.720
very disturbing at first. That's why some people need professional
189
00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:58.960
help or help of community and friends and family. Like
190
00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:01.279
some that we don't do it alone, and we can
191
00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:04.399
maybe speak about the relational dimension in a moment. And
192
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.639
I have seen thousands of people and we even have
193
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:14.279
scientific epigenetic data that shows how we can decrease anxiety
194
00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:17.720
and fear through people. I mean people practice that work
195
00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:21.720
more intensively over a period of time. That's happening. So
196
00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.120
definitely there is a way to decrease our anxieties and
197
00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.600
fear waves and live more I don't know, fulfilled and
198
00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.279
joyful life. So we can do it, and I think
199
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.159
many other people that work in the similar field know
200
00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:35.679
that too.
201
00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:38.919
Wow, there's a lot, there's so much unpacked, So I'd
202
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:40.679
like to talk a little for a moment. A lot
203
00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.840
of your work has focused on this inheritance of trauma
204
00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.399
that we all receive culturally and epigenetically ancestrally, even going
205
00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.440
way back. I mean, it's part of the human condition
206
00:11:50.919 --> 00:11:52.919
and maybe to normalize us a little bit. I mean,
207
00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.000
there's all kinds of traumas that happened that we wish
208
00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:59.919
would never happen to anyone. Child abuse and war situations, force, migration,
209
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.480
and all kinds of things related to various levels of injustice.
210
00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:06.559
And at the same time, we all inherit some level
211
00:12:06.799 --> 00:12:11.240
of collective trauma. And it seems that, you know, our
212
00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:14.440
biology is focused on survival. Obviously, Job one for any
213
00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:17.320
species is survival, So there's some fear in survival built
214
00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.360
into our very biology. Our nervous system is set up
215
00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.000
that way. Even at the cellular level, there's a predominant
216
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.240
survival instinct and they need to survive to not be
217
00:12:27.679 --> 00:12:31.480
attacked or eaten. There's a need to consume to have nutrition,
218
00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.000
and there's a drive to procreate, which is how species
219
00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:38.519
perpetuate themselves. So this, all this energy is happening. And
220
00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:41.519
you know, you mentioned as you've been practicing meditation for
221
00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:44.159
a long time and how this helped you then be
222
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.480
with fear and anxiety as it came up in the
223
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:49.200
situation that you were referencing where you are in Tel Aviv.
224
00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.960
So in my experience, a lot of people when they
225
00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:56.720
slow down through meditative practices, they sometimes touch into omo
226
00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.000
like this ground level what feels to them liking exact
227
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.240
could be, you know, because we've all been so numbed
228
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.240
out in many ways that it could be to the
229
00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.279
back of meditation, you're kind of awakening again. But then
230
00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.840
you are in touch with something that's there, this kind
231
00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:13.879
of this ground level fear and anxiety, that's part of
232
00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.759
our biology, maybe part of our inheritance. So I'm wondering
233
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.000
if it's helpful to kind of normalize that, to realize
234
00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.120
this is kind of that's good. We're getting in touch
235
00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:24.559
with the aliveness, and this can then become the beginning
236
00:13:24.600 --> 00:13:26.919
of our work to really integrate, as you were saying,
237
00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:28.879
So I wonder if you could talk about that, if
238
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:31.120
we can kind of normalize this experience of fear and
239
00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:33.559
anxiety that's part of our human condition and it's part
240
00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:35.600
of what we can actually leverage for our growth.
241
00:13:36.159 --> 00:13:38.679
First of all, I want to say that, of course,
242
00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:42.360
I think our relationship to fear and anxiety is key
243
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:46.399
because there's still in the mainstream society, it is still
244
00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:48.639
like this. First of all, this all of this is
245
00:13:48.679 --> 00:13:51.440
a disturbance, and many of the times we also experience
246
00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:54.000
it that way. So I mean, the experience is true,
247
00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.960
but the fact is that's not the disturbance. That's part
248
00:13:57.000 --> 00:13:59.399
of myself. I'm also not saying my liver is disturbing
249
00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.600
me all the time. So, but my livery is part
250
00:14:01.639 --> 00:14:03.840
of my life and my body. I cannot just get
251
00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:06.399
rid of it. Many people try to get rid of it,
252
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.480
and in the moment of getting rid of it, the
253
00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:13.159
original trauma is being reproduced. That's a repetition of what
254
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:16.159
happened already. So if I want to get rid of something,
255
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:19.799
it shows that I got rid of it already earlier
256
00:14:19.879 --> 00:14:22.480
in my life. My fears as a child were too disturbing,
257
00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:24.600
so I numbed them out and I shut them down.
258
00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.080
When they come up in my life today, then I
259
00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:30.559
don't want them. But I'm reproducing the same that already
260
00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:33.320
happened in my childhood, or maybe from my grandmother in
261
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.600
the Second World War. So that we see, oh wow,
262
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:42.039
that instinctive get rid of is actually not helpful. So
263
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.360
we need to find a way and create First of all,
264
00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.519
deep pathologize this and find a way to step by
265
00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.639
stay bring it in. And then you said something important.
266
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:56.039
Many people experience when I start working on myself because
267
00:14:56.080 --> 00:15:00.000
I want to heal. Often the anesthesia of the surprise,
268
00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.960
rest stress, the suppressed trauma, the suppressed fear, or a
269
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:09.000
strong panic is being the anestheicized. So the ant just
270
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:12.960
stops working. Because we become more aware means we become
271
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.279
more aware of something, and that something starts to come
272
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.840
back into our awareness and suddenly it looks like, oh wow,
273
00:15:18.919 --> 00:15:22.039
now I have much more fear. That's why we need
274
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:25.919
a good practice guidance because some people really touch on
275
00:15:25.960 --> 00:15:28.480
stuff that they can process later and it feels very
276
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.159
overwhelming in life to be in touch with it. So
277
00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:34.639
and then we try off then with meditation to heal it.
278
00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.919
And meditation often doesn't heal this, but it gives us
279
00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.559
more awareness. So meditation is a great resource if I
280
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.240
have the right techniques to integrate those emotions and have
281
00:15:45.320 --> 00:15:49.720
a trauma informed meditative practice that helps me to integrate
282
00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:53.240
stuff when it comes up. That deepens my meditation, and
283
00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.279
my meditation gives me more presence mindfulness relatedness, so medic
284
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:00.559
awareness to be more with the stuff that coming up.
285
00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.000
So together they are a great pair, but alone sometimes
286
00:16:04.039 --> 00:16:07.159
it's a bypass because I actually through meditation, I want
287
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:10.080
to get out of those fears and feel good, which
288
00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.320
sometimes doesn't happen because it actually it brings me more
289
00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:15.360
into the fear, which doesn't feel good, And then I
290
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.879
call it this wasn't a good meditation. But it has
291
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:20.240
nothing to do with the meditation, something to do with
292
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:23.519
the unconscious stuff that suddenly shows up in us. And
293
00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.120
the other part that I discovered in our work is
294
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:31.559
very for me, very important, is that many of us
295
00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:36.080
were not, but haven't, felt supported when we were afraid.
296
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.960
You know, we hear it. As a parent, I often
297
00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.320
bring this example. As a parent. I can say when
298
00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:44.080
my daughter comes and says, Daddy, I'm scared, and they
299
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.519
don't be scared. There's nothing dangerous in the house. So
300
00:16:47.559 --> 00:16:52.000
what did I do? I devalued the fear of my daughter,
301
00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.559
don't be scared, and I give her an intellectual answer
302
00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:59.279
when she has an emotional request. So that's not coregulative
303
00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.919
really for her. That kind of creates the separation between us.
304
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:06.599
But if I am open, present and I feel my
305
00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.680
daughter when she's scared, and I say, yeah, I feel
306
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.759
that you're scared, Come to me. Come. When I say come,
307
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:16.960
I invite the fear into relationship. My nervous system and
308
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:21.759
her nervous systems create a unit together, a mutual space,
309
00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.839
so her fear is not just her fear, it becomes us,
310
00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:29.519
the usness of who we are when we are really related.
311
00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:35.079
Means emotions are not personal properties, but actually relational spaces.
312
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:39.240
And when my nervous system feels her fear in her stress,
313
00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:43.759
her nervous system feels felt. There are two computer processors
314
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:47.319
and me. If she is young, very young, then my
315
00:17:47.559 --> 00:17:53.839
coregulation teaches her nervous system to internalize regulation. So her
316
00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:57.160
nervous system learns to do that more and more by itself,
317
00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:00.920
and when she is old enough, her nervous system does
318
00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:03.839
the regulation by itself. When she's too young, she cares,
319
00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.839
she needs the parent to feel safe. That's the evolution.
320
00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.920
So if she feels safe, and because she internalized that
321
00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:15.240
again and again, when I come to my parents, it's safe,
322
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:18.000
and I come to my parents, it's safe. So the
323
00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:23.119
world becomes safe unless it's not safe. And that's important
324
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.880
because many people feel this anxiety. Often it doesn't matter
325
00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:30.960
if it's really safe or not safe, and some people
326
00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.240
feel fear when there is a real danger. Then It's
327
00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.920
great because then it protects me. Then I can run
328
00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.000
away safe myself, do something in order to take care
329
00:18:40.039 --> 00:18:43.400
of the situation. But and I think many of us
330
00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.680
that are listening now, when we look at it, we
331
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:50.000
might often feel fear when there was no real danger
332
00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.599
and it turned out to be a regular situation and
333
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.759
we were afraid. So that internalized regulation and fear regulation
334
00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:04.000
creates when I'm afraid, I can regulate, and it teaches
335
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.799
my daughter when I am really afraid, there's always somebody
336
00:19:08.839 --> 00:19:12.799
that I can go to that feels like supportive. What
337
00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:16.000
does that do? That means when I sit with many
338
00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.680
clients and I see they tell me about their life
339
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.279
of fears or whatever. Often we see the fear is
340
00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:27.480
actually the emotion, but the fear lives in the retraction
341
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.720
or is shutdown of the social engagement system. So the
342
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:34.759
fear is actually circling in a separate space. That's why
343
00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:39.079
it cannot release itself. And when we bring not only
344
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:43.839
the fear but also the relational quality to see, oh, actually,
345
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.039
when I'm afraid, I feel alone. I wasn't even aware
346
00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.440
of that, but now that I somebody points that out
347
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.359
to me, I feel, yeah, you are distant when I'm afraid,
348
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:57.160
and often we projectice then onto the world that the
349
00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.519
world is not really caring for us, but that was
350
00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.599
our chick that experience. Often and when we bring this
351
00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.720
into awareness and we see that fear slowly can come
352
00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:13.960
back into this usseness the we space and I experience again, wow,
353
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:17.119
you're really listening to me. You are aware that I
354
00:20:17.160 --> 00:20:20.359
am afraid, You feel that I'm afraid, and I feel felt.
355
00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:24.519
The fear can release itself from that file that I
356
00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:30.039
spoke about before, continue its vertical development and integrate itself
357
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.279
into the wholeness of my mature perspective. So when a
358
00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.799
perture perspective growth, my body relaxes. So we see often
359
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:42.279
when that healing happens when energy stream goes down, there's
360
00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:45.359
a relaxation at the escalation of stress and fear, the
361
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.839
person feels more embodied, and there's an upward stream of
362
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.799
energy that amaturation of that younger fear that can grow
363
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.839
up and then it cannot be triggered anymore because there
364
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.119
is no trigger anymore. And that's amazing. So I think
365
00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:06.519
that relational dimension is often not fully seen because people
366
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.519
try to do it within that context, not aware of
367
00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:12.079
that relational context.
368
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.440
Wow, you've just given us, I think, a masterclass in
369
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.839
not only healthy parenting, but the whole relational dimension of
370
00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.319
healing is so powerful. And I want to circle back
371
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:23.440
to that, and I also want to talk more about
372
00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.640
embodied awareness and meditation, doing meditation and a trauma and
373
00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:30.839
form very embodied way. But first I also want to
374
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:32.960
just mention you've kind of referenced us a little bit,
375
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:38.000
but how trauma can distort time and then really kind
376
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:40.599
of be an impediment to being present, to really being
377
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:43.599
present in our lives for ourselves with others and have
378
00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:47.440
that capacity for coregulations, this time distortion. I wonder if
379
00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:48.279
you could talk about.
380
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.240
That a little bit of NBC presence, Like we could
381
00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:55.359
say presence is when I'm present and you're present, Like now,
382
00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.319
when we're sitting here, we feel each other, we are
383
00:21:57.400 --> 00:21:59.839
in the moment, we are together. What happens in the
384
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:05.440
traumatic moment? In the traumatic moment, life says here and now,
385
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:10.640
in this body and this experience and this moment, life
386
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.920
is absolutely not good for me When a child's being
387
00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:17.680
abused here and now, it's not good. So to shut
388
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.400
down a part of my body awareness, a part of
389
00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:24.519
my pain, my emotional pain, my physical pain, to get
390
00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:28.160
out of my body and fragment. Space and time is
391
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:33.000
intelligent in that moment, so in order to maybe save
392
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.680
myself or be able to do so, or just to
393
00:22:35.799 --> 00:22:38.759
not feel what's happening to me, that's very important. So
394
00:22:39.039 --> 00:22:42.920
not here, not now is also an intelligence that often
395
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:46.400
we see just as a disturbance. So many people pathologize
396
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.240
themselves for not being able to be present, but that
397
00:22:49.480 --> 00:22:53.039
means I don't understand that movement. But so what happens
398
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:57.279
is in that moment, presence is being split in the past,
399
00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.400
which is all the fear or the pain, or the
400
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:03.279
anger or the shame I suppressed becomes a package of past.
401
00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.559
And then later, many years later, when people talk to
402
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:09.440
me in public and say something about me or criticize me,
403
00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:12.039
that package of shame might come up, that package of
404
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.400
fear might come up. So I'm not able to respond
405
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:17.359
to the criticism because I feel actually scared by it.
406
00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:20.119
But the fear is not from today. The fear is
407
00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.440
the fear of that moment back in my childhood, and
408
00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:28.319
so the past will overshadow the present moment, which so
409
00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.559
in that moment, I'm not responding anymore as a grown
410
00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:34.519
up person, with all my intelligence, with all my skills,
411
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:37.559
with all my experience, I might come across like a
412
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:40.960
boy that feels either a shamed or scared and cannot
413
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.079
really respond to the criticism, and then I will become
414
00:23:44.160 --> 00:23:48.519
reactive or I will withdraw. So that distortion in time
415
00:23:49.160 --> 00:23:52.240
means that a part of me is frozen in time,
416
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:57.119
and every time that gets triggered, my intelligence regresses back
417
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:00.079
into that moment. That's why the trauma healing is to
418
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:06.480
release those frozen time packages, integrate that into the Kundalini stream,
419
00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.119
into the central channel of our nervous system. So split
420
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.680
off parts come back into the wholeness and integrate themselves
421
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.119
into a macrona perspective, and my grona perspective becomes even
422
00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:22.160
more stable, so I stay more mature, and if people
423
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.720
criticize me, I can inquire. I can't be with them,
424
00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:27.440
I can still feel them. I don't feel like I'm retreating,
425
00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.640
and I start to become defensive. But if not, then
426
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.440
my past I really feel defensive because I feel so threatened.
427
00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:38.119
But the fear is living in another time zone, and
428
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.920
so the more we do our healing work, we feel
429
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.920
also we become more stable, like we can be in
430
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.319
more challenging moments in a more related way. And I
431
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:52.519
think that is when present then is not here not
432
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:57.319
now slowly comes back, we feel more embodied, We inhabit
433
00:24:57.400 --> 00:25:01.640
our body more and again, I I've seen again thousands
434
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:06.559
of people that only through the process of healing became
435
00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.519
aware of how much stuff they were not aware of
436
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:14.799
even when they wanted to start the healing journey. There
437
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:18.799
was an issue often but actually behind the curtain, there's
438
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.839
much more that we don't even feel. So that also
439
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.240
means that when we say, oh, we are stressed, Yeah,
440
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.000
we are stressed. That's the stress I feel consciously. But
441
00:25:29.119 --> 00:25:33.359
the stress behind the curtain, behind this wall I don't see.
442
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.440
But there might be much more stress that actually affects
443
00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:40.839
my physical body all the time, but without my awareness.
444
00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:43.400
And then we say, oh, if health issues come up
445
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:46.400
in our life, we wonder, oh how they how come that?
446
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:48.920
Now this happened or this came up, or if you
447
00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.240
have this. Yeah, because if twenty thirty years that stress
448
00:25:53.319 --> 00:25:56.079
is active behind the scenes and we are not aware
449
00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:58.359
of it doesn't mean that it's not affecting our body.
450
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.720
It still affects my physical body, but I don't feel it.
451
00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:04.960
That's why sometimes we are surprised, how could that happen?
452
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.799
But had we known what's behind the curtain of our
453
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.680
unconscious anesthesia. So that's why it's so important that we
454
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.799
have a practice that combines both of what you said.
455
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:19.960
The meditation practice is very important. There's some kind of
456
00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:24.359
mindfulness practice. For some people, sitting meditation might activate their
457
00:26:24.440 --> 00:26:28.160
early childhood trauma, so maybe we start differently. But some
458
00:26:28.359 --> 00:26:35.519
mindfulness practice plus the integration work really to I think
459
00:26:35.960 --> 00:26:41.079
contributes to our health and even to us staying young
460
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.519
for many years, like staying dynamic and creative and full
461
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.079
of purpose. I think it's really important.
462
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:52.079
You're so beautifully describing this capacity we can develop to
463
00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:56.039
increasingly be able to beild ourselves and to allow the
464
00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:00.599
stock patterns to unfreeze and integrate and the table, and
465
00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:03.039
also then to be with others, to be a coregulating
466
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.720
presence with others, whether our children or friends or others,
467
00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:09.599
and or others were called to be with. I just
468
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:13.759
recently yesterday, returned from Peru, where I have a whole
469
00:27:13.960 --> 00:27:15.839
history with I went there as a young man in
470
00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:19.279
my twenties and ended up marrying a woman from there
471
00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:21.640
and had a son and so forth. I had this
472
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.920
long history there and tragically lost my son there four
473
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:28.039
years ago during the pandemic. He passed and related to
474
00:27:28.160 --> 00:27:31.680
some injuries he'd had. And then his mother now was
475
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:33.759
dying of cancer. So I was just down there to
476
00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:35.640
be with her, and I'm very happy I was able
477
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:37.400
to be with her for the last five days of
478
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:40.599
her life. There's also a lot of complex family trauma
479
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:43.799
and things going on there and conflict, and able to
480
00:27:43.880 --> 00:27:46.319
visit my son's grave for the first time because I
481
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:49.359
couldn't go there during the pandemic and all this going on.
482
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.799
It was really one of the most challenging ten days
483
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.160
I've spent in a long time. I'm really grateful for
484
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:59.200
the practice and my teacher, my first Tivet and teacher
485
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:02.200
Trunk from SHAE, talked about holding your seat, learning to
486
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.759
hold your seat in the midst of life, and how
487
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:08.279
the deepening of our practice gives us this capacity to stay,
488
00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:11.200
to be the present, to not run away. And I'm
489
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:14.680
so grateful that this very challenging journey of the last
490
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:16.920
ten days, somehow I was able to just hang in
491
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:18.559
there and keep putting one foot in front of the
492
00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.079
other and stay open and stay relational, even though it
493
00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:24.119
was a lot of fear and anxiety and family conflicts
494
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.039
and potential things going on, and one that could you know,
495
00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:31.839
I could feel my inclination to withdraw or to polarize
496
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.200
or to get you know, feeling you know, different sides
497
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.160
of things. And fortunately the practice just kept taking over.
498
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.319
And there's something like that with practice, our practice wins
499
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.160
out over some of our other possible intentions. And so
500
00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:48.599
I wanted to talk about this embodied approach to practice.
501
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.279
And of course, you know, our trauma lives in our bodies,
502
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:55.720
so embodied work can be challenging, but some pathway into
503
00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.359
embodied awareness, whether it's sitting practice or movement practice or
504
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.119
different things. But I found over time on if this
505
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:05.799
resonates with you, that by becoming more embody, erectly having
506
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:08.920
a physical felt presence of the body we know from
507
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:12.880
current neuroscience, that activates the task positive network, which then
508
00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:16.799
allows the development network, the busy wandering mind on often
509
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:19.680
stress causing self sensing part of our brain to go
510
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:22.359
offline naturally with how to struggle with it, and the
511
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:26.279
more embody we are, the continuity of that felt presence
512
00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:29.839
begins to create kind of an internal neurofile feedback loop
513
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.640
that where the body mind heart system is learning to
514
00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:36.799
self regulate, learning to regulate itself into a tension stabilization
515
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.440
than in the deeper states of awareness. And then the
516
00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:42.599
access states of flow, which in the Eastern traditions are
517
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:46.359
called somebody a sort of harmonic coherence and flow within
518
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.279
our nervous system and body and mind spirit such that
519
00:29:49.640 --> 00:29:51.680
our nervous SYSM learns how to get there and can
520
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.200
has more access to that. And when we're in these
521
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.920
states of flow, I think that's where a lot of
522
00:29:56.920 --> 00:30:00.759
this unfreezing and integrating and metabolizing can happen that you
523
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.000
were talking about. When we're able to access that those
524
00:30:04.039 --> 00:30:06.440
flow states. However, we do it to some kind of
525
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:10.200
embodied practice. In those flow states, our social engagement system
526
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:14.039
is online. We're for ourselves and with others. So I
527
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.160
want you to talk about that ability to develop embodiment
528
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:21.079
and access to some kind of harmonic flower ease within
529
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:25.359
the body then supports that gradual unfreezing and metabolizing of
530
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.200
the trauma. Yeah.
531
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.799
Yeah, So first I want to say I'm sorry, and
532
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.160
I hear that your time video from a wife and
533
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.119
those two what just shard about your son, so that
534
00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:38.079
I heard that, I don't want to be I want
535
00:30:38.079 --> 00:30:41.079
to honor what you just said with me and to
536
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:46.279
your question. So anyway, I think a load of the
537
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:51.599
integration work, trauma integration work and the spiritual work or
538
00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:58.119
contemplative work are designed from different kind of angles to
539
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:04.160
create that flow that you said that when trauma disorganizes
540
00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.720
the data flow, healing trauma organizes the data flow, and
541
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.319
the data flow inside and outside and through our whole
542
00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:17.000
nervous system, which I think we could equal to sense making.
543
00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:22.920
So suddenly things make sense, which means cognition, emotional experience, feeling.
544
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:27.119
Our body becomes one flow, one message, so then things
545
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.599
make sense. What the person says and what the person
546
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.319
transmits is the same. That makes sense. Sometimes we hear
547
00:31:33.400 --> 00:31:37.440
things being said, but that the body transmits something else,
548
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:40.319
so that doesn't fully make sense. Even if I can
549
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:43.440
understand the intellectual side, I don't fully feel it. So
550
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.000
I feel a gap. And if I don't immediately interpret
551
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.240
the gap and I host the gap, so then I
552
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:52.359
more wholeness can be created. So a nervous system that
553
00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:57.200
is more whole can host more of the fragmentation without
554
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.799
polarizing or fragmenting itself. And that's important and that I
555
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.440
think the basis of every therapeutic interaction is that more
556
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:08.680
wholeness is able to host more fragmentation. And so that
557
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:11.920
flow state that you spoke about, like the coherence or
558
00:32:11.960 --> 00:32:18.160
the organization, the higher organizing principle forming us or me
559
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:22.039
or you or we are being informed by the world,
560
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:26.279
means we can hold a coherent form of life in us.
561
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:31.039
So inside and outside become more coherent, and then they're
562
00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:34.200
more coherent. We call that intimate, so we don't feel
563
00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:37.440
separate from the world, but we feel the interdependence. And
564
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:41.480
wherever trauma happens, the bridge from inside to outside, like
565
00:32:41.559 --> 00:32:46.359
how I process internal data and how I process data
566
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:50.759
that my senses bring from the external world from the outside,
567
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:54.319
my environment the rom you. So when you arise in
568
00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:58.839
me more coherently and my inner space is open and relaxed,
569
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:02.279
as you said, the world feels intimate and not separate,
570
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.200
And where trauma resides, it's disorganized. It feels more separate, distant, fragmented, polarized.
571
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:10.000
And we see a lot of this right now in
572
00:33:10.039 --> 00:33:12.440
the world and also in the collective body. And I
573
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:16.440
think I would definitely underline what you just said is
574
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.960
that if I have a practice that helps me to
575
00:33:21.079 --> 00:33:23.759
first reconnect, and maybe at the end of our conversation,
576
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:27.240
we can also do such a practice that I learn
577
00:33:27.319 --> 00:33:30.000
to connect through my breath to my body, to my
578
00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:33.240
physical body. And I know this just the areas that
579
00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:37.279
feel safe and warm and open and where I really
580
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:40.160
rest in myself right now, even if at the beginning
581
00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:44.039
is just my palms or my telvis or my legs
582
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:47.000
or whatever it is, it doesn't often it's not immediately
583
00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:50.440
the whole body, but from there we can slowly expand
584
00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:55.519
and create a more coherent experience of our inner body flow.
585
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:59.200
And I think the more I practice this definitely adds
586
00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:03.440
to the coherence or flow state that you said, because
587
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:05.799
I can feel well when I pay attention, my whole
588
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.039
body is streaming. My whole body is full of energy,
589
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:12.719
it's flowing, so I feel the flow. And I would
590
00:34:12.760 --> 00:34:16.880
even say I feel the flow of my soul, like
591
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.519
as if the movement of our soul is a river.
592
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.039
And when you are open and the river is not
593
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.719
just outside, the river flows through us. And like this
594
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:29.360
we are more intuitive, we are more connected to other people.
595
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:33.360
We have more access to instant knowing. We suddenly know
596
00:34:33.519 --> 00:34:36.800
things either in conversations. We have a kind of a
597
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:40.920
sense that goes beyond the learned knowledge that my brain holds,
598
00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.840
and we are more tapped into the collective space. We
599
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:48.480
are more synchronized with the synchronicities that happen in the
600
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:53.360
society between people. So everything becomes more synchronized. And because
601
00:34:53.360 --> 00:34:55.400
of that, life feels much more as it ful like
602
00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:58.000
a flow, as you said, and it's beautiful. So there
603
00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:02.320
is this higher organizing principle that the more I feel that,
604
00:35:02.880 --> 00:35:06.119
I feel like how life is flowing through me and
605
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:09.199
through us, and I also feel more where it doesn't,
606
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.159
where it stuck, I feel more destagnations. And I think
607
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:16.440
that's for everybody who works with people groups amazing. Because
608
00:35:17.039 --> 00:35:20.320
our body tells us a lot about other people's bodies.
609
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:23.559
We can feel a lot more than we've learned in
610
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:28.679
school about each other because our nervous systems are so sensitive.
611
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:32.679
I think many of the people that practiced long time meditation,
612
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:36.280
or many people that wrote about their experiences are saying
613
00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:40.199
caves and then monasteries show that their nervous systems can
614
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.440
do stuff that is potentially in all of us, but
615
00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:46.440
we often don't turn on those functions because we don't
616
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:50.159
have the manual how to use the nervous system functions correctly.
617
00:35:50.480 --> 00:35:54.039
And so all the work on the Condolini stream and
618
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:57.840
the chakras and the higher states of consciousness, all of
619
00:35:57.880 --> 00:36:02.440
this makes a lot of sense we explore in a
620
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:05.760
healing work, and so yes, I think the practice is important.
621
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:09.480
I would just add, I can practice and open up
622
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.599
the parts of me, and I can refine the parts
623
00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:16.119
of me that are where I already have access, where
624
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:19.320
I am completely disembodied. The parts of me that I'm
625
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:22.760
not aware of, I need some kind of either they
626
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:27.239
pop up in meditation, they pop open, or I am
627
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:32.239
willing to see myself more clearly through community because other
628
00:36:32.280 --> 00:36:35.039
people will reflect back to me the parts that I
629
00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:38.719
can see in myself. That's why communal healing is so powerful,
630
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.519
because even if not every mirror is fully clear, but
631
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:47.400
somehow through other people, I can see the parts that
632
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.000
I can see myself. And so I would say the
633
00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:55.400
contemplative practice is one pillar, and I think the communal
634
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:58.519
and relational part is another pillar. If I want to
635
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:03.400
awaken my the world, I think both together are very powerful.
636
00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:06.920
Absolutely, and I want to explore this relational and collective
637
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.920
dimension of healing with you more and then allow time
638
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:11.800
for you to lead us in a practice for sure.
639
00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.400
So as you are describing, and I love the image
640
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:17.360
of the river for that flow, Doctor Dan Siegel often
641
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.719
talks about the optimal kind of organization of our nervous
642
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.960
system and brain is like a river that flows between
643
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:26.000
these shores of chaos on one side and rigidity on
644
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:29.000
the other when things become disregulated. But when we're in
645
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:32.800
this optimal flow. And also you were referencing earlier this
646
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.559
experience when you were talking about parenting a child or
647
00:37:35.559 --> 00:37:38.159
being with your child, your own daughter, if she's expressing
648
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:42.039
she's feeling fear, that experience of feeling felt, giving that
649
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:44.960
to another, receiving that for another. Often we talk about
650
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:47.159
the need to be seen, and that's a valid thing.
651
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:50.360
We want to be seen and knowledge, but also feeling felt.
652
00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.199
And again doctor Siegel talks about that is the kind
653
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:56.800
of essence of the therapeutic relationship is giving someone else
654
00:37:56.840 --> 00:37:59.800
the experience of feeling felt, actually giving their nervous system
655
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.960
feeling and healing. Belt. So you were describing this kind
656
00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.000
of vertical poll that we can all do a lot
657
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.000
of work around our inner work of healing and greater
658
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:10.880
access to flow. And then of course there's the lateral
659
00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.880
dimension and they're integrated, and a lot of our healing
660
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:16.719
work can happen within that lateral dimension as well, because
661
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:19.239
there's a flow that goes that way as well. And
662
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.480
we know from current neuroscience that the neural architecture that's
663
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:26.320
involved in developing greater access to flow within ourselves, greater
664
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:30.960
introceptive awareness and flow is also involved in our ability
665
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:34.159
to connect with others, to have our social engagement systems online,
666
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:37.960
and to be in that energy matrix that can then
667
00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:42.480
provide further landscape for healing and regulation and so forth.
668
00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:44.880
So I wonder if you could talk about sort of
669
00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:49.280
coregulation and collective healing work as an extension of our
670
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:51.679
practice and as extension of our work and some of
671
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.679
the opportunities to do that, you know, with others in
672
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:58.599
our relationships in partnership, but then also even in community settings,
673
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:00.559
in collective settings, which I know that a big part
674
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:01.079
of your work.
675
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.079
I wanted to say one thing about the feeling seen,
676
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.159
and I think that connects to feeling felt, because I
677
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:12.039
think one of the parental pillars. Like the function of
678
00:39:12.079 --> 00:39:16.679
a parent is to witness, and like in a field way,
679
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:21.840
to witness the child's new developments. When I say, oh wow,
680
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:24.719
I see you can do this in a way, I
681
00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:30.639
confirm yoric or the child's existence. More So, when the
682
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:34.159
child develops a new function and it's being witnessed by
683
00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:37.960
the parents and felt by the parents consciously, it makes
684
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:42.000
it stronger. So the witnessing is an inherent function that
685
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:46.360
brings us into existence. But if it didn't have that
686
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:49.800
on the other side enough only partly in our life
687
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.679
as children, then often we walk through life and we
688
00:39:52.719 --> 00:39:54.960
constantly want to be seen or need to be seen.
689
00:39:55.119 --> 00:39:57.239
It's not only one to We need to be seen
690
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.800
to confirm parts of us into existence, like that they exist.
691
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:05.920
So that function, I think is an important aspect of healing.
692
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.719
As you said, it's the therapeutic relationship is based on
693
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.480
feeling felt and also being seen. But being seen is
694
00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:16.280
being seen in our specificity, not in a general sense,
695
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:20.199
and who we really are in our intelligence, and I
696
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:23.440
think that strengthens the voice of the child where it
697
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:25.719
becomes a grown up. And as a grown up I
698
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:29.920
have more orientation. I know my purpose. I know my creativity,
699
00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:35.440
and I'm not unconsciously always asking for the confirmation of
700
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:38.920
my existence that I didn't get. But as a grown up,
701
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:41.480
even when I didn't get it, I still need it.
702
00:40:42.039 --> 00:40:46.000
And so exposing oneself to a group context or a
703
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.000
collective context that is safe and relatively safe and it
704
00:40:50.039 --> 00:40:53.400
has the capacity, you know, to really that we witness
705
00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:56.559
each other is very helpful. And I see this often.
706
00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.639
We are very large groups where we go through this
707
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:04.760
cold collective healing work. We do individual, ancestral and collective
708
00:41:04.760 --> 00:41:08.480
healing work in these groups, and the feeling felt when
709
00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:12.760
we induce more and more feeling felt in small groups
710
00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:15.760
like in triads and bigger groups in the whole group,
711
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:20.880
it's amazing because it unleashes such a tremendous healing power.
712
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:26.440
If hundreds of nervous systems witness a person speaking, or
713
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.480
we witness a group process, a collective process emerge in
714
00:41:30.519 --> 00:41:33.000
the group through us, and we can hold a space
715
00:41:33.079 --> 00:41:36.239
for that that has such a healing power. And not
716
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:39.000
to forget I mean, if you look into like if
717
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:41.880
you look at many countries and into the unconscious of
718
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:46.639
many cultural spaces. You talked about Latin America Europe at
719
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:50.400
World War Two, or the Holocaust, or slavery and racism,
720
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:53.840
or the Native American channel side in the US. There's
721
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.760
so many very painful events and many others around the
722
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:02.599
world that there is a lot of energy stored in
723
00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:07.159
kind of a lake, an invisible lake underneath our cultural
724
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:11.840
awareness that has a lot of design capacity, that designs
725
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:16.320
our culture, but without us knowing, and so to say, yes,
726
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:20.320
individual healing work is important. But for example, I needed
727
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:24.280
to do some work. My both grandparents were in Vienna,
728
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:27.400
I went through the Second World War. You know, they
729
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.119
had their trauma and their wounds from the Second World
730
00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:32.920
War from their parents from the First World War. So
731
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:37.360
there's a whole archeology of trauma that also resonated in
732
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.280
my body. And I needed to do a lot of
733
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.400
work also on the ancestral dimension and then on the
734
00:42:42.440 --> 00:42:47.079
collective dimension, so that my nervous system, my individual, my
735
00:42:47.199 --> 00:42:50.840
ancestral and my collective nervous system can be more open
736
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:56.400
to walk through these trauma fields with groups and provide
737
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:59.840
a holding space. That's something we need to work on
738
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:04.519
because that's not just given usually, but there's a tremendous
739
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.760
support when we as groups work together for the individual,
740
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.280
and the individual supports against other individuals, and if you
741
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:17.599
develop that space, well, I think this is the healing.
742
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:20.599
And I'm sure you had similar experiences with your own groups.
743
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:23.639
I know you went often to Auschwitz and did other
744
00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:27.280
retreats and groups that when we come together as groups,
745
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.760
even very difficult trauma fields, are places where we can
746
00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:35.320
learn a lot, integrate a lot, grow a lot, and
747
00:43:35.440 --> 00:43:39.800
be together and that togetherness unfolds a lot of healing power.
748
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:42.280
So I think in the West we are often too
749
00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.760
stuck on one on one context, which I think is important,
750
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:49.599
no doubt, But I think one on one work within
751
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:53.480
those group spaces that are working all the time, I
752
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:57.559
think is way more powerful and it's way faster because
753
00:43:57.599 --> 00:44:01.039
the collective supports the individual work. So I'm a big
754
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:04.880
fan of combining. What also, the Wisdom traditions teach us
755
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.000
over thousands of years that we come together in communities,
756
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.760
we come together in rituals, and I think with the
757
00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:13.880
modern science and the one on one work that we
758
00:44:14.119 --> 00:44:18.360
developed over many hundred years, I think this combination is
759
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:19.119
very powerful.
760
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.760
Absolutely, It's certainly been the case. I before the pandemic,
761
00:44:23.800 --> 00:44:25.679
I was just involved in that kind of work all
762
00:44:25.719 --> 00:44:27.639
the time around the world, and I kind of miss that.
763
00:44:27.679 --> 00:44:29.400
I still since we kind of got out of the panic,
764
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:31.360
been going to Outschwitz again every year. Most of my
765
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:33.559
work is online, but I miss that in person work.
766
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:35.440
And I'm grateful to go at Ourswitz every year and
767
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:37.559
we do the circle work and the console work, both
768
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:41.079
small circles and big circles, and dietic work and triotic work.
769
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.880
It's so powerful. One last question, and then I would
770
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:45.760
like to ask you to lead us in a practice,
771
00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:48.719
you know, as individuals dealing with whatever we're dealing with.
772
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:51.800
And I hopefully we would have be able to benefit
773
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:54.400
from ideal settings and be able to do retreats and
774
00:44:54.639 --> 00:44:57.880
have good therapeutic relationships and do our healing work and
775
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:00.199
so forth. But in the world in terms of what
776
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.760
we can actually work on ourselves, I wonder if you
777
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:05.519
agree that there's a in terms of the attunement work
778
00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:08.599
we do our own healing work individually, we're tuning into
779
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.679
that deeper level of ourselves and really ultimately we can
780
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:14.079
be kind of tuning into source, if you will. When
781
00:45:14.079 --> 00:45:16.119
you're talking about feeling seen and being felt, I was
782
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:18.599
saying we could have a whole nother conversation about the
783
00:45:18.679 --> 00:45:21.880
quantum level of this from a quantum perspective, as we
784
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:24.679
call each other into existence, as we confirm you know,
785
00:45:24.760 --> 00:45:27.639
the feeling, that could be very interesting conversation. But there
786
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.440
is a level of source that we can tune into
787
00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:33.679
that is profoundly healing. But also in the collective world,
788
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.519
even with all the problems in the world, there's still
789
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:39.920
within all that field, there's source there. It's a manifestation
790
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.360
out of source. If we can kind of train ourselves
791
00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:45.159
to be more attuned to source within and source in
792
00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:48.320
the relational field, this can be a continual source of
793
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:51.440
energy and healing and inspiration and so forth, to kind
794
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:54.920
of tune ourselves to being able to experience source even
795
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:56.760
in the midst of chaos or even in the midst
796
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.719
of all these situations. It's all somehow still a man
797
00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.880
of the station of source at some level. And there's
798
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:04.719
why your thoughts about that. And then I would like
799
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:07.159
you to lead us in a practice.
800
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:11.239
Right I think if our regular practice gives us more
801
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:14.159
and more energy, more and more access to that energy
802
00:46:14.320 --> 00:46:18.840
to source energy or stick Schwortz mutual friend like calls
803
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.119
it self energy or there are different people describe it
804
00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:25.119
in different ways, but there is a deeper, more trans
805
00:46:25.239 --> 00:46:29.920
personal aspect to us that we can be dialed into.
806
00:46:30.079 --> 00:46:34.559
And that's a great resource. That's a great that's also
807
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:39.920
in its simplicity, super intelligent because it looks like in
808
00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:45.559
that more quiet, connected state there is nothing, but in
809
00:46:45.679 --> 00:46:49.039
that nothing, there is a lot of intelligence, like there's
810
00:46:49.079 --> 00:46:53.639
supreme intelligence. So it and I think we get so trained,
811
00:46:54.119 --> 00:46:58.079
especially in the West, to be focused on forms that
812
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:01.559
we forgot in which all these forms arise in It's
813
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:03.800
like you read a book and you forget that you're
814
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.639
always looking at paper because you're hypnotized by the letters
815
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:08.920
and the words and the meaning. And so I think
816
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:11.400
what you are referring to is very important. That's why
817
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:14.920
I think the combination of integration work or healing work
818
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:18.880
and contemplative work is so important, and especially now when
819
00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:23.320
we see the world's the world's more volatile, to feel
820
00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:27.079
more grounded, first in our bodies, but then also grounded
821
00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:31.679
in the deeper Sourcing energy from deeper within, I think
822
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:34.960
is very very important. And it also that energy feels
823
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:38.840
more like anchored, because when we say centered, we are
824
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:41.519
not centered in a place, feel centered in flow, be
825
00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:45.480
centered means we are immersed in the river. We don't
826
00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:49.159
feel the pressure of pushing the river or slowing it down.
827
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.519
So if you're in the river, you're in the wu
828
00:47:52.679 --> 00:47:55.800
waste state in the in the dowd jing is when
829
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:59.039
we are exactly with the flow of life. But that
830
00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.199
also feels the most center ring. So center is not
831
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:05.239
a place, but it's actually an immersion in the movement.
832
00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.039
It feels deeply peaceful. And that's I think. Now there's
833
00:48:09.079 --> 00:48:12.159
a navigation system. There's a kind of a deeper knowing
834
00:48:12.760 --> 00:48:17.000
that is not any more sourced by my past, but
835
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:20.400
it's actually like a knowing out of the present moment,
836
00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:24.920
and that is that inner GPS. I think is something
837
00:48:25.000 --> 00:48:28.400
that can is really helpful in times like this, when
838
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.199
it seems like there's a lot of volatility and there's
839
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:34.480
a lot of chaotic movement in the world or even
840
00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:37.760
threatening movement, that there is a deeper place in us.
841
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:40.519
And then when we get scared, the cup is bigger
842
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:43.719
that can host the fear, because when the cup is small,
843
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:46.559
the fear is big. So when somebody says it's so
844
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:49.159
big and overwhelming, it means that the cup is small.
845
00:48:49.239 --> 00:48:51.719
But usually people say, is that they feel very young
846
00:48:51.800 --> 00:48:54.280
and regressive when the fear comes up. That's where I
847
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:56.800
say the fear is so big because I am very small,
848
00:48:57.119 --> 00:49:00.199
small meaning young. And then if I can open up
849
00:49:00.079 --> 00:49:02.840
up first into my mature perspective and then even more
850
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:07.079
so into that transpersonal space, I think that's deeply resourcing.
851
00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.760
And that's also where wisdom comes from, because where do
852
00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:14.039
we turn to in crisis times. We are looking for wisdom.
853
00:49:14.280 --> 00:49:17.159
We are looking for the depths, We are looking for elders,
854
00:49:17.199 --> 00:49:20.960
we are looking for and what is elderhood. Elderhood is
855
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:24.400
that we see that certain people didn't just get older,
856
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:28.280
they really took on the challenges in their life and
857
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.679
also became wiser. And you know, we can also be
858
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:35.840
young and wise, but that elderhood, whatever is elderhood and
859
00:49:35.920 --> 00:49:41.320
accumulation of wisdom, is usually less disturbed by the current noise,
860
00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:44.400
and it's more stable to speak from a deeper place.
861
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:48.800
There is more timeless and the timelessness is relevant at
862
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:52.559
every time in human history. I think that's also why
863
00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:57.559
we read wise books or sources of wisdom over thousands
864
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.679
of years, because they're not just speaking to the current situation.
865
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:04.559
They speak out of that which creates the current situation,
866
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:08.320
and that's really amazing. And so when we can be
867
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:12.280
tapped into where that wisdom comes from, that's very powerful.
868
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:14.199
So much if you would, I would love to just
869
00:50:14.280 --> 00:50:17.000
keep this conversation going forever. It's so wonderful. We are
870
00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:18.400
kind of near the end of our time. So if
871
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.360
you would lead us in a practice of some kind
872
00:50:20.360 --> 00:50:22.679
of attunement practice whatever you're inspired to do.
873
00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:26.599
Really, yes, yeah, let's do like a grounding practice of
874
00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:29.639
all the content. We listen now to a lot of content.
875
00:50:29.760 --> 00:50:32.360
Maybe we can just let it settle into our bodies
876
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.880
and connect a bit more to a body. And so
877
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:40.039
for everybody who's listening now, we can just okay, after
878
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.119
you listen to many things, maybe some are close to
879
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:47.199
your experience, maybe others not, and you just feel the
880
00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:53.599
echo the conversation and yourself and whatever inspired you, whatever
881
00:50:54.079 --> 00:50:59.119
speaks to your experience or makes you more interested, just
882
00:50:59.159 --> 00:51:02.800
to listen to the resonance. And also with your breath,
883
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:08.880
every time you exhale, mainly with every exhalations is down
884
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:12.199
and prolong your exhalation a little bit to drop a
885
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:16.519
bit deeper into your physical body and mainly parts of
886
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:22.719
your body feel open, safe, warm, necktat ground. That next
887
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:26.400
exhalation connects you deeper to those places or to that
888
00:51:26.599 --> 00:51:31.920
place and your body. Maybe you also feel streaming, pulsing
889
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:38.079
flow sensations there through the body, sensations you feel through
890
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:42.920
your body sensations towards the ground. You just look how
891
00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:49.719
close we're distant, appears or feels. Sometimes the ground's very
892
00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:53.719
close in our experience, especially even our body is very
893
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:57.559
open and relaxed. Sometimes we feel a little bit distant
894
00:51:57.719 --> 00:52:01.000
from the ground and there's some res in our body,
895
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:04.199
and it's equally fine. You want to just notice how
896
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:08.000
it is and not overrided. Still feel that's my current
897
00:52:08.119 --> 00:52:13.760
relationship to the ground and soften into that experience. Then
898
00:52:14.159 --> 00:52:17.880
if it's possible to open up, deep burn, let your
899
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:22.119
breath flow into the ground. Feel the ground, the soil
900
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:25.480
a little bit, the land that you're on as how
901
00:52:25.519 --> 00:52:29.920
you're sitting and your existence is supported by the ground.
902
00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:34.480
When the soil and retirement, we go through some challenges
903
00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:39.519
and we integrate, digest and integrate the challenge. We add
904
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.360
a little bit of soil in the winter and the
905
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:46.239
odd fall and the winter, the leaves struck to the
906
00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:49.920
ground through the winter had become a soil so that
907
00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:56.159
the next inhalation, the next spring can sprout. Exhaling meants digesting,
908
00:52:56.679 --> 00:53:01.639
integrating a daily life experience fresh for the next moment
909
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.480
to arrive to sprout, and then with a couple of
910
00:53:05.559 --> 00:53:10.480
deeper breaths, maybe to come back to your heart and
911
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:14.639
slowly through your heart and a sunny as screen. And
912
00:53:14.679 --> 00:53:17.360
I think just one word are a few words to
913
00:53:18.239 --> 00:53:21.679
I think that meditation because we're very often very good
914
00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:26.559
in being active, experiencing also taking in data and information,
915
00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:30.760
they also need a practice to digest the information, to
916
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:35.159
digest our day, our life, and to turn it into
917
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:38.800
soil so that the seasons of our life can stay
918
00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:43.159
fresh and active and now nervous system stays refreshed. So
919
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:47.199
that's a great meditation when you feel disturbed or stressed,
920
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.679
to come back to the body, to the soil, let
921
00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:55.440
the experience resonate and integrate itself so that you can
922
00:53:55.519 --> 00:53:59.639
be fresh or the next moment. It's also good meditation
923
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.400
to do which night or in the evening before we
924
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.719
go to sleep. It helps us to improve our sleep.
925
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:10.400
That's just distress before we sleep, so we can sleep better,
926
00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:13.960
recuperate better, we chart job better, eate better.
927
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:17.719
Well, thank you so much, Thomas. And I love the
928
00:54:17.760 --> 00:54:20.599
image of the soil and the connection between body and
929
00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:23.880
soil and the earth. You know, you reference the Auschwitz.
930
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:25.519
I've been going there every year for a long time
931
00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.400
with this bring witness work, and Bernie Glassman, the founder
932
00:54:28.400 --> 00:54:31.280
of retreat, always said Auschwitz itself is a teacher when
933
00:54:31.280 --> 00:54:34.840
we go there, and there's a wonderful German priest who
934
00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:38.440
usually joins our retreat. Father Manford has been there I
935
00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:41.760
think twenty five thirty maybe thirty years. He's been as
936
00:54:41.800 --> 00:54:45.239
a German priest on loan to the Diocese of Krakau
937
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:48.480
and Poland, and his ministry is being at Outswitz administering
938
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:51.840
to the people that come there, and he always encourages
939
00:54:51.960 --> 00:54:55.679
us to listen to the soil, to connect with the
940
00:54:55.719 --> 00:54:57.760
soil and listen to the soil, and we do that
941
00:54:57.800 --> 00:55:00.840
to our body and also literally in the place h RP.
942
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:03.639
But yeah, listening to the soil. So I love that
943
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:06.079
image of the soil and how we create more soil
944
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:07.440
with our integration work.
945
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:12.119
Yeah. That's beautiful, wow, lovely powerful, especially that place.
946
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:15.559
Yeah, thank you so much, Thomas Subell, Thank you so
947
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:19.599
much for being part of our rewiring period anxiety summit,
948
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.039
and that's always just such a blessing to be able
949
00:55:22.039 --> 00:55:23.440
to have these conversations with you.
950
00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:26.760
Yeah, thank you Fleet. I always enjoy our conversations. We
951
00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:29.280
always create such a lovely space together, So thank you
952
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:30.280
very much for having me.
953
00:55:30.920 --> 00:55:33.519
Yeah, and where can people find out more about your work?
954
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:38.719
We have multiple sources like Thomas Ubel. Thomas Hubl dot
955
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.559
com is my main website of course with the Academy
956
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:46.039
of in Science or our training programs and what we do.
957
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:50.079
And the pocket project of the work is one NGO
958
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:54.960
in Germany that does collective trauma work and Global Restoration Institute.
959
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:58.519
There's Global Restoration to the work is our US based
960
00:55:58.760 --> 00:56:02.159
NGO where we do more on the government level and
961
00:56:02.280 --> 00:56:07.400
diplomatic level trauma informed on collective trauma informed mediation, conflict
962
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:12.079
resolution work and advisory. So yeah, these are different resources
963
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:14.360
and our collective traumas on me every year.
964
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:17.840
Two absolutely, yeah, and I really encourage people to check
965
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:20.880
all that out again, Thank you so much, Thomas.
966
00:56:20.559 --> 00:56:21.840
In care do well.
967
00:56:22.440 --> 00:56:26.280
Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility podcast. Remember,
968
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:29.079
real change happens when we commit to our growth, face
969
00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:32.719
our challenges with compassion and stay open to transformation. If
970
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:35.960
you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe
971
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.360
and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment.
972
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:42.880
Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you. Take care,