Survey Says: Part Two

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Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside Out.
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I'm Ian Wilkes and I'm here with my podcast partner, the incredible, unbelievable Jim Bennett.
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Hello, Ian Wilkes.
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Incredible, unbelievable Ian Wilkes.
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How
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are you?
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I'm pretty good.
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That was a double barrel word there.
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I thought I'd kind of change it up a little bit.
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But when I say unbelievable, I mean, I think you are very believable, but you're pretty unbelievable as well.
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You're a pretty awesome guy.
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I would say the same about you, sir.
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Well, thank you.
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I'm kind of biased.
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I've known you for a long time, and I'm just grateful to be a friend and grateful to be doing this podcast.
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We're here to do part two of a review of a questionnaire that the church recently commissioned in the last week or so.
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The questionnaire was posted.
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It would appear that anyone could have taken it at that time.
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I'm not a member of the church.
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And it allowed me to go into some of the questions.
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When I returned to the link with a questionnaire, the link stopped working.
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But because of the geniusness of Jim Bennett, who took the screenshots of the questions, which are very interesting, we are now able to have the opportunity to review those questions.
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And the last question that we left off, Jim, this is the second part of the Part one that we did, we didn't have time to get through all the questions of part one.
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This is part two.
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And we left off on part one on the following question, where it says, a priesthood holder gets blessing simply by holding the priesthood.
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And I think my answer to it was that, I don't know, maybe, maybe not.
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Who knows?
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I don't have an answer to that.
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You know, I kind of felt like, you know, my favorite calling is, besides being in the tabernacle choir is gospel doctrine teacher.
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And one of the things that happens in gospel doctrine classes is you end up focusing on one element of the lesson when there's so much other stuff you want to talk about.
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And that's kind of how I felt after our first podcast.
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So I'm grateful that we get to go back and finish and go through all of these because these are really good questions.
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I think we, we, we, we, We talked about this briefly.
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I mean, this is one screenshot.
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A whole bunch of questions about priesthood.
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But I want to flesh it out just a little bit.
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I think you could make the argument that a priesthood holder gets blessings simply by holding the priesthood.
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But what are those blessings?
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Because very often when people talk about that, it's, well, I have...
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this sort of authority, I have this sort of power.
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And D&C 121 tells us that whenever anybody thinks they have authority, it's the nature of all men to exercise unrighteous dominion.
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So I think thinking about it that way kind of leads in that direction.
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And the next question sort of leads into that too.
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A priesthood leader has the right to make other people do things his way.
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Do you agree with that?
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No,
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no.
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I just want to go back to the other question, if I may.
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Your points there raise some interesting needs.
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I'll be real quick here, because I know we've got to get through quite a few of the questions.
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I think the question is about the incredibly revealing of the church's thinking, and we did discuss some of that in the part one of this podcast.
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Going back to that other question, does a priesthood holy get blessings in the name of our holy priesthood?
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To your point, if it's the blessing of having an authority...
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You know, there's two sides to that.
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I think there's that unrighteous dominion side that you pointed out, but the church makes this extraordinary claim.
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I mean, we've not covered it on the podcast, and I'd love to, that it possesses the only priesthood authority on the earth.
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In fact, I was taught and I taught that every other church and religious organization does not, I repeat, does not possess the true authority of God, period.
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that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only organization on earth that has the only true, effective, correct, authorized priesthood authority on the earth.
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That's an extraordinary claim.
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I'd love to get into that at the end of the podcast later, but going to the next question, a priesthood leader has the right to make other people do things his way.
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I did respond to that last question.
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I think when...
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If they're doing it forcefully, then obviously that's wrong.
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But if they're a presidency, and especially if they're a queue holder like the state president or a bishop, ultimately they're the ones who make the final decision.
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If you don't reach a consensus in a presidency, and you've been in a presidency, you've been a bishopric, you and I both know, and I've been a bishop, been on the state presidency, we both know that the bishop And the state presidency, using those examples, ultimately will make the final decision.
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Even if the councils counsel otherwise, even if other people say otherwise, they get to make the final decision.
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So yes, they can get the ward or the individual to do what the bishop wants and what the state president wants.
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If they're doing it kindly, respectfully, and spiritually and thoughtfully, that's obviously good.
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If they're not, then obviously that's not good.
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And when they're not, of course, the church teaches that the preacher authority is ineffective if they're practicing or behaving in an unrighteous, demeaning way.
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So there's my thoughts on that question.
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Yeah, and that whole idea of the priesthood authority goes away if they're behaving unrighteously.
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There's no enforcement mechanism for that.
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So, I mean, you can say, aha, well, you're using your priesthood unrighteously, but you don't say, okay, so now your priesthood is gone.
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It just becomes this sort of nebulous thing disagreement that has no real consequence to it.
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Priesthood as an idea is a really difficult thing to nail down, and it's something the church leans very heavily into because if you take away priesthood authority, you take away any sort of exclusivity from the church and any kind of reason for people to necessarily join the church.
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You just become any other kind of community group, which is what a lot of churches are, although churches that lean into their own idea of priesthood authority, like the Catholic Church, like the Greek Orthodox Church, or other churches that claim priesthood authority, have that same kind of thing.
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The next question here, though, all men should be respected and obeyed because only men can hold the priesthood.
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I Not only am I confident in saying that you don't believe that and that I don't believe that, I don't know of anybody other than a handful of really scary people might believe that.
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We had a guest on this podcast a few weeks ago that might believe that.
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But you don't believe that and I don't believe that.
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Why do you think the church is asking that?
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That is a good question.
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My goodness, why would they ask that?
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And ask that now?
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Maybe they're trying to get...
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In the church, there is an element of fear with some in regards to the power that a keyholder...
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I'm talking about the same person.
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You probably may or may not know, I think you will know, the state president ultimately owes almost all the power on almost every level in his stake, even beyond the bishop.
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There are certain exceptions where a general authority will intervene, and the stake president's got the option of counseling with the general authorities, but the stake president can change your life on a dime.
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Even if you disagree, there's no appeal.
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He wants to excommunicate you for something that he doesn't think is right, et cetera.
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Of course, he can exercise an unrighteous dominion, but...
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He has incredible leverage on the rank-and-file member in the stake, far more than a bishop.
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Bishops over their own priesthood, state presidents over the Melchizedek priesthood.
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And, you know, it says all men should be respected and obeyed because of what they make in all the priesthood.
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There is that element of fear.
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You know, the sucking up goes on to the state presidency, seeing that, and also the bishop.
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There are people that hold the bishop in contempt.
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He might have done something they don't agree with.
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They might respect him or not, but there is an element of obeying the bishop and the state presidents, not his councillors or the state president councillors, but those two.
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In fact, I would say the only two, really.
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The eldest quorum president is a key holder, but of no great significance, really.
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But the bishop and the state president, They're the main players, and they're the ones to stay on the right side of.
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All right.
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They're the ones to
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obey, yep.
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Well, so that leads to the next question.
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A priesthood blessing from a church leader is better than a priesthood blessing from a regular elder.
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I
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think we touched a bit about that on the part one of this podcast.
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Technically, no.
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There's no...
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you know, difference in quality or there shouldn't be.
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But there is a perception with many members that a blessing from the bishop is, our state president is more special because they're a key holder, you know, they're the leader, they're supposed to be more in tune.
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But I don't accept that, but probably quite a few do.
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And often I would have, as a bishop, as state president, I would have people come to me for a blessing and I would say, no, go see your home teachers, as they were called back then.
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And they would say, well, but it's from you, bishop.
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I said, doesn't matter.
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That's why they're there.
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They're there to give you the priesthood blessing.
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And I said, you would take away the blessings, their blessings, remove the opportunity for them to be blessed if you go to them.
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There's no difference, I said, in the blessings.
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But there's that perception, Jim, in certain people's minds that blessing from the bishop is more special and it's not.
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Well, not just the blessing from the bishop.
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So this is a story I haven't thought about for a very long time.
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But when my daughter was in the hospital recovering from her skiing accident that left her partially paralyzed from the waist down, we were on the same floor as Elder Robert C.
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Hales, who was in the hospital at the same time.
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And we had some discussions about, jeez, should we approach him?
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He's an apostle.
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He's just in a few rooms down.
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what if we were to approach him and ask him to give my daughter a blessing because a blessing from an apostle surely would have the power to heal and I'm not sure who shot it down but we were shot down with that partially using the kind of logic that you've just used with bishops and stake presidents but also partially with Apostles hate that.
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Apostles, because people constantly approach them as if, well, you're the special one.
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You're the one who could do this.
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The reality is that a blessing from an apostle really isn't any different than a blessing from a bishop or a stake president or a blessing from a home teacher.
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I mean, I look back on that and I find the most sacred blessings in my life are the blessings I got from my father.
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And my patriarchal blessing is very special to me, but I've gotten a number of father's blessings.
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And that's where I feel like when you have that kind of a connection, that you can feel the spirit, you can feel, but the whole concept of priesthood is problematic because people expect that the higher your office is, the more power you have.
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And so an apostle should be able to walk through a hospital floor and just bless everybody and everybody goes home and everybody's healed.
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And it obviously doesn't work that way.
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And I think that's a real trial of faith for a lot of people.
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I don't remember it being a trial of my faith.
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I mean, this is over a decade ago.
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But I don't remember it being a huge trial back then.
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I think I understood that even back then.
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But a lot of members don't.
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A lot of members are very disappointed to learn that apostles aren't magic.
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Would that have been a trial for you at any point in your life?
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Yeah, I think earlier, yeah, absolutely.
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Two thoughts come to mind.
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Yeah.
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I have, and I don't have this anymore, but for a long time I had this notion that apostles can and should heal, right?
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They've got the gift of healing.
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And there's all the things that I think comes with an apostleship calling.
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Far more many significant spiritual powers, I think, are bestowed upon apostles.
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That's my understanding.
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And I always thought that, you know, like Elder Hale's in the hospital.
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We went back to Jesus' time and Jesus was in the hospital.
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He would have the power.
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He'd walk around and heal people according to the faith.
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That's what he did.
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I don't know if he healed everybody, but he certainly was out in the streets and in the fields and in people's homes healing people.
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And then the second point, and your comment there about patriarchal blessings triggered this in my mind.
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I made the mistake in the MTC of telling people, because I thought I had special powers.
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I was a little bit arrogant back then, I think.
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that I told people that I had the gift of healing because it was bestowed upon me or referenced in my patriarchal blessing that I got the gift of healing.
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And I had three people come to me who had ailments when I was in the MTC and I used my special powers to heal them.
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I used words that I didn't fully understand and I thought I had these extraordinary powers.
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Neither any of them were healed, unfortunately.
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But that gift of healing, which is associated with the priesthood and the Holy Ghost, and exclusive to men, I believe, priesthood holders.
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I don't think women have the gift of healing.
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Maybe they do now, but I don't think they do to black men.
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But yeah, I had the gift of healing, and I would bless people.
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But I didn't really go around telling people I have the gift of healing.
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I mentioned it once in the MTC interview.
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But in my own mind, I believe that I had the gift of healing, that I could heal.
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If I had enough faith, he had enough faith, I could heal whatever.
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I could heal cancer.
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That's what I believed.
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And there were times in my blessings, certainly when I was a bishop, that I really believed that I could heal people.
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Did I heal people?
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I don't recall healing anyone, to be honest.
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If it was a flu or a cold, I can't say if they got well because of what I did or said.
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I can't connect the two.
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But anyway, so yeah, that's my thoughts on that question.
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Well, you know, my patriarchal blessing says that I have the gift of being warned in times of danger.
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And that's always struck me as really kind of a dramatic one.
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And one of the things that came out as a result of that was the miracle of the Christmas poo.
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You know that story?
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I do know the story, and I've heard the song.
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Yeah, I love it.
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But when that happened, I thought back to my patriarchal blessing, and I said, this is the fulfillment of my patriarchal blessing.
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So patriarchal blessings can be fulfilled, Through the power of defecation.
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And
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also just something else, your little story there reminded me.
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I think I lost a bit of confidence in my patriarchal blessing when he called me a choice handmaiden.
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Oh, yeah, that would have been a problem, I would think.
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Yeah, he'd just given three girls in the stake the patriarchal blessing, and I was next up.
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And he referred me, well, he mentioned I was a choice landmaid.
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Really, really?
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Yeah, and he wrote it down, and they had to change it.
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And by the way, did you know, and Alyssa might not know this, you know that the stake president is the only individual in the stake?
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because of the key holder, that has the power and authority to review and change patriarchal blessings and assess them for replication.
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Yeah.
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Did you know that?
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I did know that.
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I found out later, too, my patriarch got in trouble for giving lots of people the gift of being warned in times of danger.
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Right.
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My sister got a patriarchal blessing that has that exact same phrase in it.
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And apparently that was just something he thought was pretty cool.
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So he put it in a lot of blessings.
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Yeah.
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We had a state patriarchy that was a lot of repetition, a lot of flowery language, and that was changed.
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So my patriarchal blessing went back, because obviously the choice I made it.
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And also there's a few of the things that were quite common in this individual's language that were modified.
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So yeah, the state president has got that authority and they're required to check them for repetition.
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Anyway,
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next question.
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Our next question, we moved on from the priesthood questions.
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These are all sort of worthiness questions.
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So the question is, if someone is of worth, and they put of worth in quotes, which is weird since I've never ever heard anybody in church say someone was of worth.
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But okay, if someone is of worth, that means they do not need to repent.
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What's your answer to that?
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Very strange
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question.
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Of worth, I've never heard that phrase or those words like that together before.
00:19:14.882 --> 00:19:15.102
Yeah.
00:19:15.554 --> 00:19:17.777
I don't know what's behind that question either.
00:19:17.817 --> 00:19:18.538
Why are they asking that?
00:19:18.657 --> 00:19:22.001
But if someone is of worth, that means they do not need to repent.
00:19:22.402 --> 00:19:31.854
I think it's to the point I mentioned on part one of the podcast, which I should listen to, where people say, look, I'm imperfect.
00:19:32.213 --> 00:19:32.954
Accept me as I am.
00:19:33.875 --> 00:19:35.117
I have worth.
00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:38.501
The church teaches I've got worth.
00:19:39.282 --> 00:19:42.787
And I'm imperfect, and I'm doing my best to change.
00:19:44.910 --> 00:19:44.990
Yeah.
00:19:46.114 --> 00:19:54.083
and probably don't need to repent because God will accept me as I am, because God loves me unconditionally.
00:19:54.844 --> 00:20:01.971
This seems to be saying that, or it could be inferring that, if you don't repent, then you're not worth as much.
00:20:02.813 --> 00:20:05.556
That could be an interpretation that one could get from this.
00:20:06.297 --> 00:20:07.759
Interesting
00:20:07.798 --> 00:20:09.760
question.
00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.301
Yeah, the...
00:20:10.721 --> 00:20:21.596
The fun thing and the difficult thing about reviewing these questions is trying to get in the minds of the people who wrote them and trying to figure out what it is they're trying to find out.
00:20:22.858 --> 00:20:41.920
You know, when I worked in politics, for instance, when I ran campaigns and I ran campaigns that had enough budget to do actual polling, you would spend hours coming up with exactly the right phraseology to put into a question.
00:20:41.940 --> 00:20:47.548
And you would know exactly what you wanted to get out of that question.
00:20:48.329 --> 00:20:57.003
And for instance, when my father ran for the Senate the last time, we did some polling before he had any opponents.
00:20:57.786 --> 00:20:59.949
And we knew who some of the opponents were going to be.
00:21:00.189 --> 00:21:10.489
And so we put them and say, would you vote for Bob Bennett before you would vote for Mark Shurtleff, for instance, who was the Attorney General of Utah at the time and who did run against my father, but then dropped out of the race.
00:21:11.150 --> 00:21:17.558
But at one point we put in a guy whose name I made up and just called him a businessman.
00:21:17.598 --> 00:21:27.291
And the reason we put in a fake guy was, okay, if somebody says, and we would ask, would you vote for this guy before you'd vote for Bob Bennett?
00:21:28.413 --> 00:21:39.294
And the reason we put in the fake guy was anybody who would vote for a guy that doesn't exist is clearly someone who would not vote for Bob Bennett under any circumstances.
00:21:40.154 --> 00:21:45.560
So there was a very specific reason for asking that specific question.
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.564
And that was the case really with every question.
00:21:48.624 --> 00:21:50.605
That's sort of the one I remember.
00:21:51.486 --> 00:21:58.473
But I look at this and go, I just don't understand what someone would learn from an answer to that question.
00:21:59.273 --> 00:22:02.577
Because it's using a phrase nobody uses.
00:22:03.521 --> 00:22:06.747
It's asking a question that doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:22:06.886 --> 00:22:09.810
I mean, some of these questions just aren't really constructed well.
00:22:09.830 --> 00:22:12.734
I mean, the next question is even more like that.
00:22:12.875 --> 00:22:18.142
If someone is virtuous, quote unquote, that means they have never had sex.
00:22:21.366 --> 00:22:23.269
I don't know anybody that believes that.
00:22:24.550 --> 00:22:28.277
And I also don't understand why they're asking that.
00:22:28.416 --> 00:22:31.842
I mean, do you have any, can you read the tea leaves here better than I can?
00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:34.932
maybe I'll just listen
00:22:34.972 --> 00:22:38.336
to you and I'm going to put my skeptics at on.
00:22:38.576 --> 00:22:48.827
Is it to, is there some power or control behind this in the thinking, the mindset of, you know, the leaders of the church there?
00:22:48.847 --> 00:22:55.375
You know, if you look at the other one there, you know, I think the two are connected in terms of the intent.
00:22:56.557 --> 00:22:58.900
You know, if someone is of worth, that means they do not repent.
00:22:59.099 --> 00:23:04.432
Are they saying, look, you know, In order to be of worth, you have to repent.
00:23:04.492 --> 00:23:08.499
And the repentance, let's face it, is a control leverage element on the member.
00:23:08.959 --> 00:23:15.929
You know, the bishop's got the power to call to repentance and state president has, the prophet has, obviously, can call people to repentance.
00:23:17.471 --> 00:23:19.113
Ecclesiastical leaders can do that.
00:23:20.234 --> 00:23:24.520
And are they saying that, look, you're not worthy if you don't repent?
00:23:24.922 --> 00:23:26.503
Well, the church has got leverage on that.
00:23:26.923 --> 00:24:04.057
And I think, I suspect that's some intent around controlling the member behind that maybe the answer to that question reveals the member's insights in terms of how much control the church thinks they have on individuals around repentance or not and if someone is virtuous that means they have never had sex again I tie that to you know the repentance you know they had sex and they've repented it's an odd question that isn't it and Why would they come up with a question like that?
00:24:04.097 --> 00:24:04.898
What's behind that?
00:24:05.318 --> 00:24:06.099
Yeah, what are they trying
00:24:06.140 --> 00:24:06.601
to learn?
00:24:06.641 --> 00:24:14.630
Are they saying that if you've had sex, you've repented and you're virtuous, if you don't repent?
00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:20.317
Because it's interesting how they've put that question next to the other question about repentance.
00:24:20.396 --> 00:24:21.738
I think that's deliberate, by the way.
00:24:21.878 --> 00:24:27.905
I think those two questions are connected, and that's why they're next to each other, I think.
00:24:28.417 --> 00:24:34.104
Yeah, I mean, all of these, you have to answer a series of questions before you move on to the next page.
00:24:34.183 --> 00:24:36.886
So I think, and these are all questions that are on the same page.
00:24:36.946 --> 00:24:41.873
So I think that all the questions on the same page are focusing on similar ideas.
00:24:43.314 --> 00:24:47.479
But I just don't understand what someone's going to do with that data point.
00:24:48.179 --> 00:24:54.846
They find out that 20% of members think that if someone is virtuous, that means they've never had sex.
00:24:57.509 --> 00:24:57.950
Okay.
00:24:58.721 --> 00:25:03.911
Yeah, is it saying that if you've never had sex, you're virtuous?
00:25:05.232 --> 00:25:08.959
Is it saying that if you've had sex, you can never be virtuous again?
00:25:08.979 --> 00:25:15.849
Is it the idea that you can't really repent of sexual sin?
00:25:15.990 --> 00:25:18.013
Are they trying to find that out, maybe?
00:25:18.054 --> 00:25:24.525
That there are some members who think that, jeez, once I'm damaged goods, I can never, you know...
00:25:25.665 --> 00:25:39.318
And then the flip side of that, what about those people who, and I've kind of referenced this a few times, what about those people who have had sex, don't feel guilty, feel okay, quite happy to have sex again, and feel virtuous?
00:25:41.141 --> 00:25:42.221
What's the church think about that?
00:25:43.763 --> 00:25:45.085
I think it's a guilt thing.
00:25:45.125 --> 00:25:47.207
Again, I put my skeptic hat on.
00:25:47.307 --> 00:25:56.330
Is the church trying to gauge, quantify the type and level of guilt with individuals.
00:25:56.351 --> 00:26:06.182
You know, if they don't feel guilt, then, you know, we both know serving a mission, that guilt, and you talked about this, that guilt is a motivator, right?
00:26:06.942 --> 00:26:08.104
Guilt is the fuel.
00:26:08.785 --> 00:26:09.164
It was
00:26:09.266 --> 00:26:10.487
the fuel of my mission.
00:26:10.968 --> 00:26:11.468
There we go.
00:26:11.728 --> 00:26:12.148
There we go.
00:26:12.328 --> 00:26:13.711
And it was partly mine.
00:26:13.730 --> 00:26:15.231
There's no way I was going to come back.
00:26:15.472 --> 00:26:17.755
Not a cat in hell's chance, right?
00:26:17.815 --> 00:26:20.377
That I was going to come back and fail.
00:26:20.758 --> 00:26:21.078
No way.
00:26:21.578 --> 00:26:25.230
They're going to carry me back in a coffin before I go home early, right?
00:26:25.311 --> 00:26:26.953
I was going to be absolutely obedient.
00:26:27.413 --> 00:26:32.019
I was driven a lot, not entirely, by guilt.
00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:38.628
You can speak about your guilt experience and how that motivated you, maybe motivated you more than it did me.
00:26:38.949 --> 00:26:42.012
I was certainly motivated by other things, but guilt was a factor.
00:26:42.794 --> 00:26:49.942
And you understand guilt on a very personal level, I know that, from your mission experience.
00:26:50.924 --> 00:27:00.703
And is this a question of, you know, that they can quantify in terms of do people feel guilty for having sex?
00:27:00.723 --> 00:27:02.145
Do they still feel virtuous?
00:27:03.407 --> 00:27:06.811
I think these are different layers to the question, for sure.
00:27:07.413 --> 00:27:10.797
Yeah, but that question wouldn't give them that information.
00:27:10.836 --> 00:27:24.224
If I'm one of these people that feels absolutely no guilt about any kind of sexual misbehavior, how does my answer to that question reveal that information to the questioner?
00:27:25.968 --> 00:27:28.211
It's just a clumsy, weird question.
00:27:30.474 --> 00:27:48.141
But if you feel virtuous, or you perceive someone who has had sex who's virtuous, or do you see someone else who's not had sex as virtuous, or do you see yourself as having had sex but still virtuous?
00:27:48.842 --> 00:27:51.265
There's four different angles.
00:27:52.481 --> 00:27:53.282
But
00:27:54.305 --> 00:28:03.136
normal people are not going to answer this question, are not going to agree with this statement.
00:28:04.878 --> 00:28:11.489
People, no matter what you believe, if you're normal, you know that's not necessarily what virtuous means.
00:28:12.690 --> 00:28:17.877
Because you would not say, well, geesh, President Nelson isn't virtuous because he's had sex.
00:28:19.038 --> 00:28:23.236
He's been married twice, so he's had sex many times.
00:28:23.336 --> 00:28:26.759
He has, what, eight daughters and one son?
00:28:26.779 --> 00:28:30.864
And so this is somebody who's had sex.
00:28:31.884 --> 00:28:32.465
Nine times.
00:28:33.606 --> 00:28:34.127
At least.
00:28:35.328 --> 00:28:39.453
But only nine times, because you only have sex to have a kid, right?
00:28:39.614 --> 00:28:40.575
That's the rule.
00:28:41.256 --> 00:28:41.455
That's
00:28:41.476 --> 00:28:41.556
it.
00:28:41.836 --> 00:28:46.821
And interesting, by the way, that they tie virtue to sex, to sexual morality.
00:28:47.809 --> 00:28:48.151
Yeah.
00:28:48.550 --> 00:28:49.313
And that's deliberate.
00:28:49.553 --> 00:28:51.277
I think the scriptures talk about that.
00:28:51.636 --> 00:28:58.550
They always tie someone's virtue to sexual morality or immorality.
00:28:59.291 --> 00:29:01.375
That's been my understanding of the church anyhow.
00:29:01.836 --> 00:29:05.845
If you have sex outside of marriage, you've lost your virtue.
00:29:07.769 --> 00:29:08.349
Oh, yeah.
00:29:08.673 --> 00:29:13.260
Virtue's the word that's used there in that scripture that we talked about in our very first episode, isn't it?
00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:14.262
Exactly.
00:29:14.462 --> 00:29:16.546
You know, they're no longer lovely and virtuous.
00:29:16.767 --> 00:29:17.126
There we go.
00:29:17.166 --> 00:29:20.752
There's a connection between sex and having virtue or not, right?
00:29:21.334 --> 00:29:21.773
Interesting.
00:29:22.695 --> 00:29:23.076
All right.
00:29:23.416 --> 00:29:23.877
Next one.
00:29:24.018 --> 00:29:29.866
If someone has divine nature, that means they can, with help from Jesus, become like God.
00:29:29.906 --> 00:29:40.339
That's a statement I would agree with, and I think that's a statement that's at the heart of of a lot of what makes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints unique.
00:29:41.241 --> 00:29:43.465
This idea that we can become like God.
00:29:43.486 --> 00:29:44.909
I am a child of God.
00:29:44.949 --> 00:30:00.701
This is something that some people, you know, they published a Gospel Topics essay where they sort of distance themselves from some of the More sci-fi aspects of this.
00:30:00.800 --> 00:30:05.547
There's a gospel topic essay about, well, geez, if you die, do you get your own planet?
00:30:06.368 --> 00:30:08.250
Which is a line in the Book of Mormon musical.
00:30:10.673 --> 00:30:11.776
But we don't.
00:30:12.277 --> 00:30:14.038
And they said, no, no, no, we don't believe that.
00:30:14.078 --> 00:30:19.606
And yet when you read the essay, it's like, okay, yeah, we don't believe that.
00:30:19.707 --> 00:30:22.049
We don't believe you get just your own planet.
00:30:22.971 --> 00:30:24.653
We believe that you become like God.
00:30:25.281 --> 00:30:27.084
God has more than one planet.
00:30:27.244 --> 00:30:28.726
God has all the planets.
00:30:29.627 --> 00:30:44.626
And so we try very hard not to lean into the weird implications of this, of which there are many.
00:30:44.646 --> 00:30:58.012
And we just try to accept the broader implication of we are children of God, we are like God, We are of the same species of God, is how Truman Madsen put it.
00:30:59.273 --> 00:31:05.483
And I agree with that statement, and I hope the church agrees with that statement.
00:31:05.765 --> 00:31:12.555
I'm curious as to whether or not they do, at least in leadership.
00:31:12.634 --> 00:31:13.696
I know that when Gordon B.
00:31:13.737 --> 00:31:22.109
Hinckley was asked this by Larry King, he was asked about the, as man is, God once was, as God is, man may become statement.
00:31:22.721 --> 00:31:24.163
And he says, that's just a couplet.
00:31:24.765 --> 00:31:26.125
I don't know that we teach that.
00:31:26.145 --> 00:31:29.089
I mean, he was trying very hard to just sort of downplay it.
00:31:30.491 --> 00:31:40.083
But I can't imagine that at its core, the church doesn't still believe this and that we still don't teach this.
00:31:42.026 --> 00:31:42.606
What do you think?
00:31:43.988 --> 00:31:44.729
Yeah,
00:31:45.830 --> 00:31:47.271
I agree with it personally.
00:31:47.633 --> 00:31:51.637
You know, if someone is divine nature, that means they can and help with Jesus become like God.
00:31:52.097 --> 00:31:58.108
And presuming God is virtuous and kind and divine and good.
00:31:58.670 --> 00:31:59.391
So, yes.
00:32:01.555 --> 00:32:06.463
I, again, a lot of these questions, struggling as to why they're asking these questions.
00:32:06.544 --> 00:32:12.173
I have no reason to, no evidence to suggest the church does not believe this or doesn't agree with this.
00:32:12.233 --> 00:32:12.775
I think it does.
00:32:14.298 --> 00:32:18.550
And I don't know.
00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:21.534
This one is kind of like a filler question.
00:32:21.594 --> 00:32:24.257
It's kind of just general.
00:32:24.416 --> 00:32:31.444
Maybe it's just there just to keep the interest of the person doing the questionnaire.
00:32:31.605 --> 00:32:32.766
Maybe it's just a filler question.
00:32:32.786 --> 00:32:34.448
I think it's a good question.
00:32:34.508 --> 00:32:43.298
It's just reinforcing, I think, what the basic fundamental principle of the church is, which is someone is divine and kind and good.
00:32:44.034 --> 00:32:46.577
and they get help from Jesus, they become like God.
00:32:46.657 --> 00:32:48.220
I think that's a universal principle.
00:32:49.902 --> 00:32:52.204
I can't think more, Matt, into this.
00:32:53.467 --> 00:32:53.788
All right.
00:32:53.847 --> 00:32:57.673
Well, the last question on this page, do you agree or disagree with this statement?
00:32:58.653 --> 00:32:59.496
I am perfect.
00:33:01.679 --> 00:33:05.624
And of course I agree, and I also agree on your behalf.
00:33:07.547 --> 00:33:12.394
We have pointed out this is the only true and living podcast on the face of the earth.
00:33:12.673 --> 00:33:13.375
It is.
00:33:13.494 --> 00:33:17.659
We are the only two people who can answer that question in the affirmative.
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:22.865
Yeah, and a man can get nearer or further away from God by listening to the podcast.
00:33:25.688 --> 00:33:26.788
Why is that there?
00:33:27.190 --> 00:33:29.573
Who's going to say I'm perfect?
00:33:29.593 --> 00:33:29.772
Go ahead.
00:33:29.813 --> 00:33:30.153
You finish.
00:33:30.192 --> 00:33:30.373
Go ahead.
00:33:30.854 --> 00:33:31.775
No, I finished.
00:33:31.914 --> 00:33:35.499
Well, I mean, I'm joking, of course.
00:33:35.578 --> 00:33:41.645
If there's anybody out there that thinks I believe I'm perfect, then you're not very bright.
00:33:42.273 --> 00:33:49.922
I don't believe I'm perfect, but unless you're a complete psychopath, nobody believes they're perfect.
00:33:50.423 --> 00:33:51.624
Why would that be there?
00:33:52.605 --> 00:33:54.567
Well, I have an answer to that.
00:33:54.767 --> 00:33:57.891
I think, yes, in the terms you've discussed, you're right.
00:33:58.010 --> 00:34:00.574
You know, the church teaches that Christ was the only perfect person.
00:34:00.713 --> 00:34:05.258
However, there is a lesson that does exist because I've taught it at least twice.
00:34:06.038 --> 00:34:07.099
I can't remember where it is.
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:08.242
It does exist.
00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:10.972
Our listeners might be able to help us find it.
00:34:11.534 --> 00:34:13.456
And the lesson talks about perfection.
00:34:14.237 --> 00:34:23.891
And in the lesson, and I remember this very clearly, the lesson provided some examples of where, I think it was a lesson on be therefore perfect.
00:34:24.793 --> 00:34:25.974
I think that was the title of the lesson.
00:34:26.795 --> 00:34:31.864
And there's a scripture in the Bible and the Book of Mormon which the lesson quotes.
00:34:32.505 --> 00:34:38.713
I think be therefore perfect, even as I and your Father in heaven is perfect, or worse to that effect.
00:34:39.041 --> 00:34:49.536
And in that lesson, and I remember teaching this, it gives examples of where a member, only a member in the church, can achieve a level of perfection.
00:34:49.797 --> 00:34:50.639
And it gave an example.
00:34:51.300 --> 00:35:03.338
It said that if you pay your tithing, it gave the tithing example, consistently, every month, for 10 years, you have reached perfection in that law.
00:35:04.599 --> 00:35:13.050
If you go visit home teaching, and you diligently, 100% every month for three, four, five years or 10 years, you've reached a level of perfection.
00:35:13.530 --> 00:35:20.641
It gave examples where certain things could be, a level of perfection could be achieved.
00:35:21.302 --> 00:35:22.844
I can't remember the name of the lesson.
00:35:22.925 --> 00:35:26.650
I think it's, it could be, be you therefore perfect.
00:35:27.650 --> 00:35:48.641
I'd need to dig it out, but it does cite examples where certain aspects of perfection church behavior, action, commitment, dedication, devotion is, or can rather be, a level of perfection can be achieved, given those examples.
00:35:49.362 --> 00:35:51.605
And maybe it's that.
00:35:51.885 --> 00:35:55.389
I don't think anyone believes anyone's perfect or they're themselves perfect.
00:35:56.030 --> 00:36:00.014
But it's interesting that that lesson did give some examples.
00:36:00.615 --> 00:36:02.018
But it's another...
00:36:03.842 --> 00:36:28.117
odd question you know if you said yes what would the church do with that i don't think anyone's going to say yes you're going to say no so no is it just to remind people that they're not perfect and they need the church i think there's some controlling things in these questions jim or rather you know reminding the person that well the interest in this questionnaire was for anyone I think at one point wasn't just for members.
00:36:28.257 --> 00:36:28.938
It was a mistake.
00:36:29.759 --> 00:36:31.001
I don't think they meant it that way.
00:36:31.440 --> 00:36:31.722
Well, okay.
00:36:31.782 --> 00:36:32.583
Okay.
00:36:32.603 --> 00:36:33.744
But anyone could have taken it.
00:36:33.885 --> 00:36:34.585
And I agree.
00:36:34.626 --> 00:36:35.748
I think it was just for the member.
00:36:36.489 --> 00:36:41.056
And I don't think any member is going to say, you know, they're perfect and therefore they need the church.
00:36:41.916 --> 00:36:56.056
You know, the church, we gave that, we had that podcast on that General Authority who said, look, if you live the gospel, you don't need the church as much because you're doing everything every day wonderfully, serving, loving, extending your love and your blessings and helping other people.
00:36:56.498 --> 00:37:01.804
You don't need a program or a system or a structure or a building to serve.
00:37:02.346 --> 00:37:09.556
I think it's Elder Polman, is it Palman, Polman, that gave that talk in the early 70s or early 80s, I think it was.
00:37:09.596 --> 00:37:10.757
We talked about that.
00:37:11.338 --> 00:37:18.047
So is this a reminder that the church, that the members need the church in order to become perfect?
00:37:20.110 --> 00:37:20.590
Maybe,
00:37:21.090 --> 00:37:21.672
maybe.
00:37:24.034 --> 00:37:26.056
I'm reading too much into that, too many theories.
00:37:26.255 --> 00:37:33.885
No, but it's just, so all it's telling them is what percentage of our membership are psychotic.
00:37:35.527 --> 00:37:40.592
You know, you have to be completely psychotic or insane to think you're perfect.
00:37:42.333 --> 00:37:43.615
And I do remember that lesson.
00:37:43.635 --> 00:37:44.516
I've heard that lesson.
00:37:44.556 --> 00:37:59.653
I've heard variations of that lesson because I've heard very often, you know, people trying to wrestle with those scriptures and Book of Mormon scripture is slightly different from the Bible scripture in that Jesus says that he is perfect in the Book of Mormon.
00:38:00.454 --> 00:38:05.541
And he only says, be therefore perfect as your father in heaven is perfect in the Bible.
00:38:05.902 --> 00:38:21.762
So the lesson is, so between the time before the atonement and then after the atonement and resurrection, that Jesus achieved enough perfection that he was comfortable putting himself on that list.
00:38:22.690 --> 00:38:33.664
But again, I just don't see what the church learns from how somebody answers that question.
00:38:35.047 --> 00:38:36.369
Go ahead.
00:38:36.489 --> 00:38:36.829
You finish.
00:38:36.869 --> 00:38:37.050
Go ahead.
00:38:37.489 --> 00:38:39.273
Well, I mean, it may be what you're saying.
00:38:39.333 --> 00:38:44.780
You know, the church wants to remind you that you need the church because you're not perfect.
00:38:45.561 --> 00:38:50.547
And I think a lot of the lessons, like the ones you describe about tithing, I mean, you can be perfect.
00:38:50.568 --> 00:38:51.530
I remember Paul Dunn.
00:38:52.257 --> 00:39:17.945
giving a talk about how he was perfect in not swearing and not saying bad words because he was on the pitcher's mound at one point and at some point he got, there was something and he started saying all these terrible words and then felt terrible and made a promise then and there that he never would say those words again and he's kept that promise and so therefore he's perfect.
00:39:18.567 --> 00:39:25.670
The irony in that, of course, is that Paul Dunn lied about being a pitcher, a major league pitcher.
00:39:26.251 --> 00:39:30.795
So that event where he made that promise never happened.
00:39:31.617 --> 00:39:42.389
So he's perfect at not saying bad words, but making up huge parts of his own biography, he still has something to work on in that regard.
00:39:42.409 --> 00:39:47.755
I mean, the whole idea of perfection is problematic anyway.
00:39:47.795 --> 00:40:00.543
All the lessons that try to torture Jesus's words into meaning, okay, I can achieve perfection somehow on my own merits.
00:40:02.987 --> 00:40:20.186
They all fall short because, and they're all really kind of silly ultimately, because we are so far from perfection that all the idea of trying to achieve a perfection does is discourage us.
00:40:20.706 --> 00:40:21.847
is create guilt.
00:40:22.509 --> 00:40:26.514
And maybe that's what the church wants because that kind of guilt keeps you in the church.
00:40:26.653 --> 00:40:37.168
Well, no, I'm not perfect, so I dang well need to show up every Sunday and I need to keep writing my tithing check and I need to make sure that I'm doing everything that I need to do.
00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:46.282
But again, that's a separate discussion from why would somebody put this question in a survey like this?
00:40:47.262 --> 00:40:48.945
But we don't know the
00:40:49.025 --> 00:40:49.306
answer to
00:40:49.326 --> 00:40:49.405
that.
00:40:49.826 --> 00:40:50.766
There may be an answer.
00:40:50.786 --> 00:40:51.507
I'm listening to you.
00:40:51.688 --> 00:40:52.608
This could be the answer.
00:40:52.969 --> 00:40:56.673
I might be reading the tea leaves completely wrong, but how about this?
00:40:58.195 --> 00:41:06.284
There's a correlation between some of the words that are identified or placed in the questions, right?
00:41:07.585 --> 00:41:13.431
Repentance, virtue, sex, priesthood authority.
00:41:13.452 --> 00:41:18.557
Obey was a word that was in one of the questions, right?
00:41:18.722 --> 00:41:21.485
And, you know, are you perfect, right?
00:41:22.286 --> 00:41:42.672
And so is this theme, this thread through these questions, or one of the threads in the tapestry of these questions, connecting these words across the questions, is that around, and I think the guilt is in there as well, repentance was another word.
00:41:43.514 --> 00:41:59.713
These are important and interesting words that are, distributed through the questions, through the carefully designing the questions, is the intent designed to reinforce the need and value of the church on one's life.
00:42:01.835 --> 00:42:06.179
You know, the church teaches the eternal, the plan of salvation model.
00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:11.666
There are three kingdoms, and in the highest kingdom, in the sister kingdom, there are three levels.
00:42:12.746 --> 00:42:19.498
And you can only get in the highest level, which is eternal life, is the one way you get to be with God and be with your family.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:26.070
And that also requires, you need to be part of the new and everlasting covenant of marriage, so sealed in the temple.
00:42:26.550 --> 00:42:29.755
You know, faithful tithe payer, attending the temple faithfully.
00:42:29.856 --> 00:42:37.068
Is that, you know, if you attend the temple faithfully, diligently, your entire life, have you not reached perfection in that?
00:42:37.829 --> 00:42:40.695
The church is constantly, is it constantly?
00:42:40.735 --> 00:42:52.481
Maybe that's a bit too much of a word, but often reminds us of the need to strive for perfection or strive for the highest level in the celestial kingdom.
00:42:53.563 --> 00:42:57.306
And only there will you find true happiness and peace and be with your loved ones.
00:42:57.588 --> 00:42:58.809
You won't find that anywhere else.
00:42:59.309 --> 00:43:04.356
So you need the church as a vehicle to get you to where you need to be.
00:43:04.396 --> 00:43:09.181
And so I think that for me, it might be different for you.
00:43:09.889 --> 00:43:13.114
I'm seeing a pattern emerge here across these questions.
00:43:13.135 --> 00:43:26.213
There are very strategic words placed deliberately and planned for a number of different objectives across these different questions.
00:43:26.273 --> 00:43:28.538
I'm seeing a correlation between some of the words.
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:36.650
And is the church trying to get a sense of how much the members think they need or value the church?
00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:41.715
and currently in their life right now, the level of commitment, devotion.
00:43:41.755 --> 00:43:51.646
I think that's interesting, if I'm correct, because the church membership commitment overall, collectively, has changed, I think, Jim, over the years.
00:43:52.606 --> 00:44:02.097
As the internet has emerged and all these problems with the church have emerged, perhaps collectively the church is not seeing that level of commitment, devotion.
00:44:02.458 --> 00:44:11.224
Yes, with traditional members, older, senior members, individuals who hold on to those, you know, fundamental principles.
00:44:11.704 --> 00:44:20.440
But the, you know, the younger members, and you've talked about this, this point quite a bit, they're probably not seeing the need to be as devoted or committed.
00:44:20.521 --> 00:44:26.612
And I think, well, who gives a crap whether, you know, who cares about any of these things?
00:44:26.731 --> 00:44:27.855
Do they need religion?
00:44:28.896 --> 00:44:33.860
So I think I mean, these questions, there is a strategy behind them.
00:44:34.181 --> 00:44:41.130
The church doesn't do these things or put these questions out without careful, you know, like political campaigns.
00:44:41.309 --> 00:44:45.554
Each question is carefully spliced together.
00:44:45.594 --> 00:44:46.635
Words are put together.
00:44:46.655 --> 00:44:49.259
It can take hours to put some of the questions together.
00:44:49.778 --> 00:44:52.762
Highly strategic, tactical is intent.
00:44:53.824 --> 00:44:55.925
But I'm seeing a bit of a pattern emerge across some of the questions.
00:44:56.766 --> 00:44:58.929
What's the next question?
00:44:59.713 --> 00:45:11.565
So the next question seemed to be focused on the idea of answers to prayers or blessings that you get from God or what you should expect in terms of blessings from God.
00:45:11.606 --> 00:45:14.568
The first one on this next page is God.
00:45:14.889 --> 00:45:17.092
Okay, do you agree, believe or not believe?
00:45:18.393 --> 00:45:22.237
God will give you whatever you want if you just ask him.
00:45:24.679 --> 00:45:31.826
So again, I think every person in the world recognizes that this is not the case.
00:45:34.411 --> 00:45:51.202
I mean, people will say God will give you, the church leans into the idea that God will give you what is right if you ask him, you know, we qualify the idea of asking you shall receive with as long as you're asking according to the will of God.
00:45:52.161 --> 00:46:03.853
And there's a scripture in the Doctrine and Covenants that says, he who prayeth in the Spirit prayeth according to the will of God, asketh in the Spirit, asketh according to the will of God, therefore it is done even as he asketh.
00:46:05.074 --> 00:46:09.498
So the idea is God will give you whatever you want as long as it's his will.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:25.052
But a three-year-old child who first learns to pray and says, I want a big, you know, Sports car, except for three-year-olds don't want sports cars.
00:46:25.092 --> 00:46:26.275
What do you want when you're three years old?
00:46:26.896 --> 00:46:28.197
I want a big pile of candy.
00:46:28.217 --> 00:46:30.739
Well, you just asked for it.
00:46:30.860 --> 00:46:31.961
God didn't give it to you.
00:46:32.521 --> 00:46:42.134
So, again, when you were talking about all these things, you're seeing specific strategic words.
00:46:43.976 --> 00:46:45.157
The strategy is...
00:46:45.570 --> 00:47:13.173
that you're describing there is a strategy of the church using this survey, not to gather information, but rather to manipulate or teach the people who are taking it, which to me strikes me as a really silly thing to do, because it's one thing to say, okay, all right, I want to remind everybody who takes a survey that they're not perfect.
00:47:13.922 --> 00:47:17.987
And so I'm going to say, put a question in there that they're going to have to say, no, I don't believe that.
00:47:18.708 --> 00:47:20.913
But then they'll know that they're not perfect.
00:47:22.936 --> 00:47:29.826
That makes absolutely no sense to use a survey in that way.
00:47:33.692 --> 00:47:34.612
So I don't know.
00:47:35.253 --> 00:47:38.820
But again, that to me strikes me as a really silly question.
00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.135
Because everybody knows that God will not give you whatever you want if you just ask him.
00:47:46.556 --> 00:47:48.438
I mean, do you agree with that statement?
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:58.592
I do, and I think you're right when you say that this is perhaps a tool, an instrument, a plan to influence.
00:47:59.211 --> 00:48:03.438
I do think the church wants to learn people's thoughts and opinions.
00:48:03.498 --> 00:48:04.318
You know, where are they at?
00:48:04.759 --> 00:48:06.822
How much grip do the church have on the members?
00:48:06.882 --> 00:48:13.043
And And what's the general opinion on certain things?
00:48:13.204 --> 00:48:17.331
I think you've got some real interesting questions which are deliberate and they want information on.
00:48:17.351 --> 00:48:27.748
I think you've got some filler questions that are just there to kind of keep the interest and to educate and to teach and to reinforce certain teachings.
00:48:27.768 --> 00:48:29.570
I think it's an integrative strategy.
00:48:30.072 --> 00:48:30.813
I think you're right.
00:48:31.094 --> 00:48:33.398
I think that's one of the objectives, not the only one.
00:48:34.177 --> 00:48:44.271
With some questions, that's probably the only objective with some questions is to educate and reinforce the church's influence over the member, to remind the member that they need the church.
00:48:45.333 --> 00:48:49.659
And maybe that's not as silly as it sounds.
00:48:49.900 --> 00:49:01.675
Maybe, you know, if they can remind people of the significance and value and importance of their relationship with the church, then they've got that influence on them.
00:49:02.137 --> 00:49:06.521
You know, this is a wherever the church does, there's an element of influence, isn't there?
00:49:06.661 --> 00:49:09.766
So that is, I think you're right.
00:49:09.827 --> 00:49:10.927
I think it's part of the strategy.
00:49:10.987 --> 00:49:11.829
Is it silly or not?
00:49:12.210 --> 00:49:14.112
Maybe not.
00:49:14.213 --> 00:49:20.981
If you try to hang on to your membership and you try to keep a grip on them and remind them, maybe not.
00:49:21.021 --> 00:49:21.282
This is going
00:49:21.302 --> 00:50:03.960
through a very specific, I mean, I know they made a mistake and this went out to the world, but every time I've gotten one of these, it's been a very specific targeted thing and it's gone to a fairly small audience so if the idea so maybe they would have identified an audience of people that need to be reminded that they're not perfect and that God doesn't give them everything they want just when they ask for it but that's a very strange it just I just this is either so brilliant that we just can't grasp it or maybe it really is kind of stupid Which it seems to be.
00:50:04.019 --> 00:50:12.273
But anyway, the next statement, if you keep a commandment, you will immediately get the blessing you expect from it.
00:50:14.177 --> 00:50:16.481
Again, is there anybody that believes that?
00:50:16.501 --> 00:50:19.425
That one probably more than the previous one.
00:50:19.445 --> 00:50:25.675
But the word immediately there, you will immediately get the blessing you expect from it.
00:50:27.318 --> 00:50:29.382
Everybody knows that...
00:50:30.338 --> 00:50:34.563
Sometimes you immediately get a blessing you expect from it, but most times you don't.
00:50:36.686 --> 00:50:37.889
I think that you've answered it really well.
00:50:37.929 --> 00:50:38.630
There are two answers.
00:50:39.150 --> 00:50:43.197
You know, I've had things happen to me very quickly, but most of the time it doesn't happen.
00:50:43.757 --> 00:50:53.050
Is the intent behind this question to remind, to your point, remind members that you don't always get what you want immediately?
00:50:53.070 --> 00:50:54.733
Yeah, you might get it, but it might take a while.
00:50:54.773 --> 00:50:57.458
You know, God's timing is not our timing.
00:50:57.985 --> 00:51:06.077
Or is it to also remind people that they need God and they need to be patient?
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:16.012
There's quite a lot of talks on tribulation and terrible experiences that members go through.
00:51:16.052 --> 00:51:19.777
And the church often teaches, enjoy for the end, be faithful.
00:51:20.880 --> 00:51:22.603
God's timing is not your timing.
00:51:23.204 --> 00:51:27.389
And even the church said, sometimes those blessings don't come in this life, they come in the next life.
00:51:28.322 --> 00:51:29.824
And the church is big into that.
00:51:29.963 --> 00:51:37.693
They're saying, look, if it didn't happen here now, keep living the gospel, be faithful, be perfect, be diligent.
00:51:38.655 --> 00:51:43.340
Yeah, you might not experience the blessings in this life, but you will get them in the next life.
00:51:44.601 --> 00:51:56.295
And maybe there are a number of strategies to that question, similar to multiple strategies for other questions.
00:51:57.217 --> 00:51:57.757
Yeah, so...
00:51:58.626 --> 00:51:59.686
There's two answers to that one.
00:51:59.807 --> 00:52:01.530
It takes a long time often.
00:52:02.050 --> 00:52:04.534
Sometimes it can happen quickly.
00:52:04.574 --> 00:52:07.036
I do know people who expect blessings to happen immediately.
00:52:07.056 --> 00:52:10.702
They feel they've got that much faith it can happen, and some have experienced that.
00:52:10.782 --> 00:52:18.853
Others have expected it doesn't happen, and then the bishop will tell them, look, God's timing is not your timing.
00:52:18.893 --> 00:52:20.996
So, yeah, interesting.
00:52:21.717 --> 00:52:22.217
Okay.
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:23.619
Next one.
00:52:23.659 --> 00:52:27.746
If God loves you, you will be rich as to the things of this world.
00:52:28.929 --> 00:52:40.320
Now, this is a much better question because I bump into a lot of people who would argue this is 100% true.
00:52:41.942 --> 00:52:58.237
And you see a lot of this in leadership because very often the people who are called to be bishops and stake presidents are rich as to the things of this world.
00:52:59.297 --> 00:53:19.067
And you get the sense that church leaders see wealth as a sort of shortcut, as a hermeneutic to be able to say, aha, yes, this person is righteous because look how blessed they are.
00:53:20.608 --> 00:53:31.425
And I have a real problem with that because Well, maybe it's because I'm not nearly as rich as I'd like to be.
00:53:31.465 --> 00:53:42.056
I'm certainly richer than a lot of people in a world that people, you know, what percentage of people worldwide live below the poverty line.
00:53:42.096 --> 00:53:45.958
They'd certainly look at me and say, well, gee, he's absolutely rich.
00:53:47.139 --> 00:53:51.625
But I look at everybody in my ward and think, well, they're all richer than I am.
00:53:54.306 --> 00:53:56.568
The point being, I just don't believe this.
00:53:57.730 --> 00:54:06.505
I can see why this would be a valid survey question because I have met a number of people in the church who absolutely believe this.
00:54:07.306 --> 00:54:09.429
So do you believe this?
00:54:09.510 --> 00:54:13.197
Do you believe if God loves you, you'll be rich as to the things of this world?
00:54:14.398 --> 00:54:20.670
And if you do or don't believe that, how does that relate to why the church is asking this question?
00:54:21.692 --> 00:54:22.652
I don't believe it.
00:54:24.577 --> 00:54:27.481
The second point, there is a dark side to that question.
00:54:27.521 --> 00:54:32.688
Again, if you look at it, he said, if God loves you, love, you will be rich as to the things of the Lord.
00:54:32.728 --> 00:54:34.829
Does that mean God only loves rich people?
00:54:35.610 --> 00:54:37.813
And does it mean that if you're poor, he doesn't love you?
00:54:37.833 --> 00:54:41.778
I think it's a pretty awful question depending on how you interpret it, right?
00:54:42.179 --> 00:54:45.023
Well, and I think a lot of people interpret it exactly that way.
00:54:45.043 --> 00:54:47.224
It goes hand in hand with the next question.
00:54:47.244 --> 00:54:52.010
I just want to put this in there because I didn't catch that until you said that.
00:54:52.050 --> 00:55:01.998
Because I was sort of conflating it with the next question, which was, if you keep the commandments, you will be rich as to the things of this world.
00:55:03.061 --> 00:55:09.989
I didn't catch the difference because in the first question, it's, if God loves you, you don't have to do anything, you're going to be rich.
00:55:11.592 --> 00:55:13.474
But the second question is transactional.
00:55:14.175 --> 00:55:16.597
That's the one that I think everybody believes.
00:55:17.699 --> 00:55:18.420
Not everybody.
00:55:18.440 --> 00:55:19.282
I don't believe it.
00:55:19.650 --> 00:55:22.534
But that's the one that a lot of people in the church believes.
00:55:22.673 --> 00:55:29.001
I don't think there are a lot of people in the church that believe that God doesn't love poor people.
00:55:30.282 --> 00:55:44.280
But I do think there are a lot of people who sort of buy into the prosperity gospel idea that I'm rich because I've impressed God with my righteousness.
00:55:44.960 --> 00:55:48.525
God is blessing me for my righteousness with wealth.
00:55:49.826 --> 00:55:53.411
And there are a lot of people who believe that.
00:55:54.431 --> 00:56:15.938
And I don't know that I ever believed that specifically, but I certainly believed in a kind of transactional God, a God that, you know, when my daughter was injured, for instance, that was the biggest moment in my life where I thought, well, wait a minute, I've been paying my tithing.
00:56:15.958 --> 00:56:16.960
I've been going to church.
00:56:17.161 --> 00:56:18.021
I've been righteous.
00:56:19.393 --> 00:56:22.378
doesn't that mean these things aren't supposed to happen to me?
00:56:23.300 --> 00:56:35.818
And if you'd asked me before that if I believed that the bad things that happened to other people were because they weren't righteous, I would have absolutely said no.
00:56:37.221 --> 00:56:39.043
And I think I would have even meant it.
00:56:40.326 --> 00:56:55.981
But when bad things happened to me, all of a sudden I realized I really bought into this idea that that keeping the commandments, you sing in primary, in this there is safety, in this there is peace.
00:56:57.222 --> 00:57:08.753
And I had bought into the idea that keeping the commandments was insurance against pain, insurance against poverty, insurance against bad things happening to me.
00:57:08.793 --> 00:57:50.032
And then something terrible happened, and I went, oh, I really need to reevaluate my entire life idea of god and my entire idea of a relationship with this sort of transactional god where i do something good god blesses me for it he's the vending machine and if i don't do something good god will withhold those blessings and so therefore if i'm rich that means i'm good if i'm poor that means i'm bad i mean i didn't believe that consciously but i believed it viscerally Even deeper than conscious.
00:57:50.092 --> 00:57:54.077
Because consciously I could think about something like that and realize how silly it is.
00:57:55.099 --> 00:58:16.965
But just viscerally, in my gut, I had believed in this transactional God and letting that go has been in some ways very difficult and in other ways extraordinarily freeing to realize that you don't measure God's love based on the goodies he gives you.
00:58:17.889 --> 00:58:20.092
God's love is unconditional.
00:58:20.152 --> 00:58:21.474
God's love is massive.
00:58:22.596 --> 00:58:31.568
And you cannot gauge the level of God's love for you by the size of your bank account.
00:58:32.108 --> 00:58:47.291
So I guess that's a long, messy statement, but I wanted to jump in there because I was responding to the next question about keeping the commandments, not just God loving you and you wisely keeping demonstrated the difference.
00:58:47.331 --> 00:58:48.032
Does that make sense?
00:58:49.574 --> 00:58:50.235
It does make sense.
00:58:51.338 --> 00:58:58.007
And listening to you has triggered something else I think very interesting in my experience and my thoughts.
00:58:59.028 --> 00:59:01.092
Quite controversial, but I'm going to say it because it's true.
00:59:01.112 --> 00:59:08.262
There is a relationship, a correlation between callings and wealth.
00:59:09.483 --> 00:59:09.724
Okay?
00:59:10.804 --> 00:59:16.664
And therefore the callings facilitate or speak to someone's worthiness.
00:59:18.106 --> 00:59:28.737
And I lived and served in very wealthy wards where we haven't been the richest by any means.
00:59:30.079 --> 00:59:34.443
And I've been in wards that are poor wards.
00:59:35.445 --> 01:00:07.088
And there is absolutely, in my experience, a lot of evidence where the church in the wards where you've got a mixture of wealth individuals who have got high net worth value, that they do not and will not almost always, not always, but almost always, will not call a poor person, somebody who's not financially successful, an award where there's a big choice of individuals who are successful financially.
01:00:07.748 --> 01:00:13.228
There's a correlation between calling someone, and I've I've been involved in these conversations.
01:00:13.309 --> 01:00:23.947
I've been privy to these conversations where if someone is successfully, financially successful, they're smart, they're educated, therefore they bring leadership and they bring capabilities of that calling.
01:00:24.449 --> 01:00:25.409
I know that as a fact.
01:00:26.172 --> 01:00:27.974
Those conversations happen.
01:00:28.835 --> 01:00:33.864
Also, conversations about someone is, they don't use the word wealth in the conversations.
01:00:34.465 --> 01:00:43.318
But if somebody is doing well and successful in their personal life, then they're going to bring those qualities and skills and abilities into the calling.
01:00:44.019 --> 01:00:51.630
And also, because they are doing well, it means that they have prospered.
01:00:52.130 --> 01:01:02.525
And they prospered with God because they are close to God and they have greater spirituality and closeness with God, the worthier.
01:01:03.585 --> 01:01:16.547
and I've heard those words, because they are financially successful and therefore they're stronger candidates to be called into leadership positions, for example, compared to the poor folks in the ward.
01:01:16.989 --> 01:01:24.882
We have a ward where a lot of members are poor, and there are exceptions where poor people do get called, and I do know that.
01:01:25.344 --> 01:01:49.032
But my experience, my observations over the 35, 37 years, is that in a ward where you've got people of all different levels financially, typically the church does not call someone who is financially inferior or less successful compared to those who are more successful.
01:01:50.715 --> 01:01:54.639
That's a sad truth, but there's a lot of evidence, I think, that supports that.
01:01:55.059 --> 01:01:56.920
It's not entirely like that.
01:01:58.146 --> 01:02:00.128
But for the most part, that's the situation.
01:02:00.547 --> 01:02:09.418
If you're poor and you're in a rich ward, you will not likely to be called into a calling as maybe a bishopric, but not much more than that.
01:02:11.480 --> 01:02:11.820
Okay.
01:02:12.420 --> 01:02:14.583
Interesting end.
01:02:14.842 --> 01:02:15.764
Interesting questions here.
01:02:16.184 --> 01:02:19.788
Again, these are questions around gender.
01:02:21.309 --> 01:02:25.233
A woman who gets an education is rejecting her role in the family.
01:02:26.626 --> 01:02:46.753
In the past, I think if they got an education or they went out to get work, I think Spencer Kimmel talked about this, the lady, the sister, the woman is being unfaithful and disobedient if they opted to go get an education and go get a career.
01:02:46.992 --> 01:02:56.445
The woman's role was in the house, in the kitchen, supporting the priesthood, building the home, homemaking.
01:02:58.081 --> 01:03:00.105
and things that, you know, public opinion.
01:03:00.125 --> 01:03:02.148
I think that was public opinion as well going back.
01:03:02.228 --> 01:03:06.373
I think in Britain, that was the role of the woman to be in the home, homemaker.
01:03:06.494 --> 01:03:11.920
So it's not just religious perspective from a religion.
01:03:11.940 --> 01:03:19.771
I think that was the thinking probably in the United States and certainly it was in the UK in the, you know, 40s, 50s and 60s.
01:03:19.851 --> 01:03:22.295
That was the role of the woman probably even in the 70s.
01:03:22.976 --> 01:03:25.960
But a woman who gets an education and rejects her role in her family, no.
01:03:26.621 --> 01:03:32.280
Um, You know, women are individuals, and they have the right to do whatever they want to do.
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:34.902
You know, raise a family, go get an education.
01:03:35.523 --> 01:03:37.487
Not raise a family, go get a career.
01:03:37.507 --> 01:03:47.079
I think the church is probably trying to figure out where people are in thinking on the role of a woman in the church.
01:03:47.498 --> 01:03:55.188
And that might speak to this concept on the other question about whether women should have priesthood authority.
01:03:55.228 --> 01:03:55.550
Does that...
01:03:56.161 --> 01:04:03.514
interest in education and career can or should that extend to leadership callings for women in the church?
01:04:04.074 --> 01:04:07.380
So, again, another layered strategic question.
01:04:09.222 --> 01:04:32.217
Well, at least I can understand the purpose of this question because I can understand the mindset of somebody who's trying to figure out where the membership is based on this question because the church has shifted dramatically in terms of where they are in teaching this.
01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:34.461
And there was a big kerfuffle.
01:04:34.521 --> 01:04:52.550
We've talked about it on this podcast, and I'm trying to remember the name of the leader, but it's a woman who was just called into either the general primary presidency or the general relief society presidency who talked, who is a very accomplished woman who got a law degree and is a practicing lawyer.
01:04:53.442 --> 01:05:11.900
And she is of an age where when she decided to pursue a law degree, President Benson was giving conference talks about how a woman who gets an education is rejecting her role in the family, to use the language of the survey here.
01:05:11.940 --> 01:05:22.590
That that was being actively taught at the time when this now church leader made the decision to go to law school.
01:05:23.554 --> 01:05:32.806
and is now in the highest levels of church leadership, at least as far as women are allowed to go, which is another issue altogether.
01:05:32.827 --> 01:05:42.539
But it is being rewarded for making a decision that went contrary to what the church was teaching at the time.
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:56.172
So it's very interesting to see the church now trying to gauge where everybody is on this, because the church no longer teaches this explicitly.
01:05:56.192 --> 01:06:04.661
It teaches it implicitly, I think, because I think you can interpret the proclamation on the family, which the church continues to lean into.
01:06:04.681 --> 01:06:11.708
It talks about how women are the nurturers and the men are the breadwinners, and that those are the divine roles.
01:06:11.788 --> 01:06:17.534
But it also talks about how individual adaptation may be needed for different circumstances.
01:06:18.114 --> 01:06:24.202
And I can't remember the last time an apostle or a prophet stood from the pulpit and told women to stay home.
01:06:25.523 --> 01:06:27.806
They're not actively teaching that anymore.
01:06:27.847 --> 01:06:39.561
They're quietly teaching it maybe, but there's no ecclesiastical sanction for a woman going out and pursuing a career.
01:06:40.302 --> 01:06:40.903
Does that make sense?
01:06:41.565 --> 01:06:42.365
It makes sense, yeah.
01:06:42.594 --> 01:06:44.016
I agree with that, yeah.
01:06:45.117 --> 01:06:51.905
The next question is, after a woman gets married, she accesses God through her husband, not directly.
01:06:52.085 --> 01:06:54.748
Well, I don't believe that, agree with that.
01:06:55.489 --> 01:07:15.688
In the temple, you know, in the temple, there is that teaching and position and doctrine of the church that, in fact, it's in the video in the temple, when God and Christ are having the conversation with Adam and Eve, that Eve makes a covenant with God through Adam, if I'm not mistaken.
01:07:16.329 --> 01:07:16.731
You are
01:07:16.771 --> 01:07:20.255
mistaken, but not necessarily.
01:07:21.297 --> 01:07:24.923
We talked about this because that has explicitly changed.
01:07:26.806 --> 01:07:27.427
Historically.
01:07:27.889 --> 01:07:29.632
In the earlier endowments, it did.
01:07:29.791 --> 01:07:32.054
When you went through the temple, that was the case.
01:07:32.356 --> 01:07:38.465
And that was the case up until maybe, what, four years ago?
01:07:38.849 --> 01:07:43.775
I think it changed either right before COVID or right after COVID.
01:07:44.335 --> 01:07:44.936
But it used to
01:07:45.016 --> 01:07:45.536
teach that.
01:07:45.838 --> 01:07:47.018
It used to teach that, didn't it?
01:07:47.619 --> 01:07:48.780
We used to teach that.
01:07:48.820 --> 01:07:50.643
We absolutely used to teach that.
01:07:50.682 --> 01:08:08.242
And in fact, so prior to 1990, the language of the covenant was Adam, the woman's covenant was, Adam, I covenant to obey thy law.
01:08:09.121 --> 01:08:13.206
And hearken unto your counsel as you hearken unto the Father.
01:08:13.246 --> 01:08:20.376
And then in 1990, they changed that to Adam, because she's addressing Adam.
01:08:20.416 --> 01:08:21.976
She's not addressing God directly.
01:08:22.518 --> 01:08:24.220
Here, you're in the Garden of Eden.
01:08:24.680 --> 01:08:29.305
God and Jesus are standing right there, and Adam is talking to them.
01:08:29.926 --> 01:08:32.689
But Eve does not talk to God directly.
01:08:32.729 --> 01:08:34.131
Eve talks to Adam.
01:08:34.152 --> 01:08:38.938
And after Eve talks to Adam, Adam covenants with God.
01:08:39.362 --> 01:08:48.311
So the very clear implication is that Adam stands between Eve and God and that Eve accesses God through her husband.
01:08:49.052 --> 01:09:07.033
But in 1990, the language was softened from Adam, I now covenant to obey thy law, as in the law of Adam, to Adam, I now covenant to obey the law of the Lord and hearken unto your counsel as you hearken unto the Father.
01:09:07.778 --> 01:09:24.764
Now, much has been made of that, and people, I remember actually being at a wedding where that language was being discussed by the sealer, and isn't that wonderful because women are equal to men now?
01:09:26.265 --> 01:09:36.101
And I remember thinking, no, if women were equal to men, Eve would be talking directly to God the same way Adam is.
01:09:36.930 --> 01:09:41.176
And this didn't, and that language didn't really change anything.
01:09:41.717 --> 01:09:42.078
Excuse me.
01:09:42.719 --> 01:10:01.470
Didn't really change anything because it, I mean, hearkening unto, because the covenant always was that she'd hearken to her husband's counsel as long as her husband's counsel was hearkening to the father's.
01:10:01.985 --> 01:10:10.317
So obeying the law of the Lord versus obeying Adam's law as long as Adam's obeying the law of the Lord, it's essentially the same thing.
01:10:10.358 --> 01:10:12.841
It's just a way to sort of soften it.
01:10:12.940 --> 01:10:26.479
And so people now look at the temple ceremony and people now say, isn't it great because now Eve makes exactly the same covenant and she does it directly with God.
01:10:26.520 --> 01:10:45.291
However, there have been other If you go to the sealing ordinance, there's been an addition to the sealing ordinance where it was never there before, where a man covenants to preside.
01:10:45.331 --> 01:10:59.274
And so what people have said is, okay, yes, this looks more inclusive, but all it's doing is shifting the language from one place to another.
01:10:59.938 --> 01:11:13.194
So that the man is still always in charge, but now we're just gonna use the word preside in the sealing ceremony so that we don't have to make it so explicit in the endowment ceremony.
01:11:14.556 --> 01:11:19.243
And so this is absolutely something we used to teach.
01:11:20.144 --> 01:11:24.550
There's a very good argument for the idea that it's something we still teach.
01:11:25.474 --> 01:11:27.855
It is not something that I believe.
01:11:28.015 --> 01:11:29.818
As you've said, it's not something you believe.
01:11:29.837 --> 01:11:34.202
And I would argue that it's probably not something that the general membership believes.
01:11:34.262 --> 01:11:37.905
So I can see the logic behind putting it in this survey.
01:11:37.926 --> 01:11:39.747
I agree.
01:11:39.828 --> 01:11:43.931
And the strategy to me is quite clear.
01:11:43.992 --> 01:11:51.639
And it's behind the other next question as well that kind of related, which is it is equally important to educate girls and to educate boys.
01:11:52.159 --> 01:11:52.860
I agree with that.
01:11:53.981 --> 01:11:54.301
I don't.
01:11:55.265 --> 01:11:58.510
think the church always believed or agreed with that.
01:11:59.091 --> 01:12:10.123
And again, we see this in British society where cultures around the world, even now today, women don't have the same access to education like in Afghanistan.
01:12:13.207 --> 01:12:17.032
Certain regimes around the world restrict women from accessing education.
01:12:18.854 --> 01:13:09.993
It's this position of some men that women can't or shouldn't be educated because they don't make good leaders or they can't make good leaders or for goodness sake we can't have a good leader so I think it's really important I think I think it's an interesting question the if you just go back to the question again Jim just jump back because I just thought of something else if you don't mind so when we're talking about educating we're talking about not just teaching we're talking about learning and We learn through experience and experience, my take on that is the experience of a woman or a girl to have equal access to all the callings and opportunities that a boy or a man would.
01:13:10.994 --> 01:13:26.782
So is the intent behind the question to get an opinion from the collective rank and file members to see where the member's position is on using a very strategic word, educate.
01:13:27.502 --> 01:13:40.060
But if we were to look at that in a different angle and consider that as a girl or a woman serving in a calling, we'll get a different perspective on that.
01:13:41.243 --> 01:14:01.092
So if the church, if the members think, yeah, girls and boys should be educated equally and therefore access to learning opportunities that you learn and grow and those learning opportunities are extended equally between male and female, is the church trying to get the opinion of the members of what they think about women going into leadership?
01:14:02.875 --> 01:14:03.416
I think so.
01:14:03.536 --> 01:14:05.578
I think it's a very important question.
01:14:05.639 --> 01:14:07.119
I think it's strategic on their part.
01:14:07.921 --> 01:14:12.587
And if the church comes back and says, the vast majority say, yeah, girls should be educated equally as boys.
01:14:13.427 --> 01:14:19.832
Well, that gives the church an insight into where the members are.
01:14:20.072 --> 01:14:28.666
And the church, as you know, the leadership is under pressure to involve and include more women, like in general conference.
01:14:28.685 --> 01:14:34.194
I think they started doing that to an extent in some of the meetings and some of the general conference meetings.
01:14:34.234 --> 01:14:39.542
There's a pressure on the church to be much more inclusive and more equal towards women.
01:14:39.804 --> 01:14:40.404
I'm seeing that.
01:14:40.444 --> 01:14:41.305
I don't know if you're seeing that.
01:14:42.207 --> 01:14:45.784
So I think those questions are, they're together for a reason.
01:14:45.805 --> 01:14:47.087
I think they're important.
01:14:47.547 --> 01:14:49.810
I have a better understanding of why they're doing that.
01:14:50.853 --> 01:14:56.962
And engaging opinion on where the members are in terms of the role of a woman in the church.
01:14:59.225 --> 01:15:15.270
So instead of asking whether, bluntly, whether a woman should have the same access to learning experiences in the church, like through callings, which is a more obvious one, it's It's asked it in a different way to get a similar opinion.
01:15:15.530 --> 01:15:15.992
Okay, go ahead.
01:15:16.032 --> 01:15:16.471
Next question.
01:15:17.132 --> 01:15:18.034
Well, so
01:15:18.655 --> 01:15:27.029
I'm looking at this and there are, we're at an hour and 20 minutes.
01:15:29.493 --> 01:15:37.105
And we have, I think we may be halfway there.
01:15:38.145 --> 01:15:43.110
But we haven't even gotten to any of the LGBTQ questions, which are several of them.
01:15:43.752 --> 01:15:44.692
I'm just gauging this.
01:15:45.012 --> 01:15:53.520
We have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight.
01:15:54.261 --> 01:15:54.782
Oh, boy.
01:15:54.822 --> 01:15:56.703
Eight.
01:15:58.126 --> 01:15:59.386
I don't even think we're halfway through.
01:15:59.447 --> 01:15:59.506
And,
01:16:01.109 --> 01:16:06.314
you know, if our listeners are interested and they're patient with this, I'm happy to do a part three.
01:16:06.786 --> 01:16:07.166
on this.
01:16:08.046 --> 01:16:12.552
I find these questions fascinating, and I think hopefully our listeners do as well.
01:16:12.592 --> 01:16:15.355
The conversation's just amazing and fascinating, I think.
01:16:15.756 --> 01:16:27.970
No, I think it's fascinating too, and I want to keep going, but I want to, again, I want to give all of these questions the importance that they deserve.
01:16:28.110 --> 01:16:29.953
So are you willing
01:16:29.993 --> 01:16:31.418
to A hundred percent.
01:16:31.498 --> 01:16:35.222
I mean, the church has gone at great lengths to put these questions together, right?
01:16:35.643 --> 01:16:36.844
They're not doing this overnight.
01:16:37.104 --> 01:16:37.725
You said that.
01:16:38.305 --> 01:16:41.189
A lot of thought, a lot of planning, a lot of strategy goes into this question.
01:16:41.708 --> 01:16:52.340
And you said earlier at the beginning on part one that this gives us an insight into, I think you said that in your opening comments, into the thinking and the mindset of the leaders.
01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:54.181
And you don't get that often.
01:16:54.221 --> 01:17:06.195
And I think this kind of conversation is kind of dissecting allows us to explore all angles, all possibilities, and get into the psyche of some of the leaders.
01:17:06.737 --> 01:17:21.376
Because the church is under extraordinary pressure on women, women equality in the church, the level of devotion, commitment from the members, etc., LGBTQ, etc., all these other issues.
01:17:21.395 --> 01:17:26.141
And there is design behind these questions, and I think they deserve attention.
01:17:26.658 --> 01:17:29.081
thorough examination and discussion.
01:17:29.822 --> 01:17:30.301
All right.
01:17:30.722 --> 01:17:33.886
So with that in mind, we're going to bring this episode to a close.
01:17:34.707 --> 01:17:38.932
This is going to be the first trilogy in the history of Inside Out.
01:17:40.515 --> 01:17:45.260
But Ian, I think your insights here have been invaluable.
01:17:45.581 --> 01:17:50.886
And I want to allow for enough room to get more of them.
01:17:51.568 --> 01:17:54.430
So rather than just sort of rush through these.
01:17:54.470 --> 01:17:56.833
We're going to leave these next questions the next week.
01:17:56.913 --> 01:17:59.979
Please be patient with us, but more is coming.
01:18:00.720 --> 01:18:12.617
We very much appreciate you being with us, and we look forward to seeing you on part three of the Church's Survey Questions in the next episode of Inside Out.
01:18:13.077 --> 01:18:14.880
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:16.381
Thank you, Jim.