Heather Hester
00:00:05Welcome to Just Breathe.
Heather Hester
00:00:07I am so happy you are here today and have taken a little time out of your day to listen while you're walking or cooking or driving or whatever you may be up to.
Heather Hester
00:00:19So, so grateful you are here today.
Heather Hester
00:00:22I have a really, really interesting guest and just fascinating human who has had quite a life's journey and shares it with us today.
Heather Hester
00:00:37And I am just so grateful because I like to get and I like to be able to share with you all perspective from all different types of people and people who have come out at all different times, their lives and had different coming out experiences and then share whether that coming out had any effect on their life's purpose.
Heather Hester
00:01:01And it just so happens that it did on this person.
Heather Hester
00:01:05Really, really, really excited for you to listen into our conversation.
Heather Hester
00:01:09So I'll just give you a quick introduction to David Devore, who is a life coach who specializes now in the challenges of queer life, such as coming out, internalized homophobia and shame.
Heather Hester
00:01:24David embarked upon a spiritual journey in his early 40s in response to midlife existential crisis.
Heather Hester
00:01:33He discovered that internalized homophobia and shame had been holding him back in all areas of his life by negatively coloring the lens of his perspective.
Heather Hester
00:01:45This cathartic moment ignited David's passion for the work he does with the LGBTQIA community today.
Heather Hester
00:01:53David is a master level psychotherapist and wellness coach.
Heather Hester
00:01:58So without further ado, take a listen to our conversation.
Heather Hester
00:02:15Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.
Heather Hester
00:02:28My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.
Heather Hester
00:02:33I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest.
Heather Hester
00:02:43Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop, having a cozy chat.
Heather Hester
00:03:00Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.
Heather Hester
00:03:17Welcome, David.
Heather Hester
00:03:18I am so happy you are here today.
Heather Hester
00:03:21And I'm.
David Devore
00:03:21I'm so excited to be here to meet you.
David Devore
00:03:24I'm so excited about the work that you're doing.
David Devore
00:03:26It's so incredibly valued and important in our community.
Heather Hester
00:03:31Thank you.
Heather Hester
00:03:32Thank you.
Heather Hester
00:03:32Thank you so much.
Heather Hester
00:03:33That really, that does mean a lot.
Heather Hester
00:03:35And just thank you.
David Devore
00:03:39You're welcome.
Heather Hester
00:03:40I've been looking forward to this conversation because I think that you have such a Unique perspective.
Heather Hester
00:03:48And you're doing very interesting work as well and just really would love to hear what kind of the big, like the big question.
Heather Hester
00:03:58You talk about this a lot on TikTok.
Heather Hester
00:04:01TikTok plug.
Heather Hester
00:04:01FYI, who am I?
Heather Hester
00:04:03The big question, who am I?
Heather Hester
00:04:05That was a big changing question for you in your life.
David Devore
00:04:09Yes.
David Devore
00:04:10I had, I guess, what you would consider to be the midlife crisis, existential crisis in my early 40s, where I recognized that I wasn't really showing my life fully.
David Devore
00:04:22I felt like I was sort of just walking on the parameter of my life and sort of just dipping into it.
David Devore
00:04:27But I wasn't really invested.
David Devore
00:04:28And my.
David Devore
00:04:29In my relationship.
David Devore
00:04:30I had been with a man for 12 years and I felt like I wasn't fully trusting of him and that I was sort of faking it, sort of playing.
David Devore
00:04:38And I was wondering why that was and why I was feeling sort of stuck in my life.
David Devore
00:04:42And I knew there had to be something more.
David Devore
00:04:44And then it really came up like, well, who am I and why am I experiencing this way?
David Devore
00:04:50And how do I find a way to have more joy in my life, to feel more engaged in my life, to be more purpose driven?
David Devore
00:04:58And that led me into a spiritual journey.
David Devore
00:05:01And I had always been on a spiritual path, but I really made a very conscious effort to work on this.
David Devore
00:05:08So I started following gurus and reading books and going to retreats and doing workshops.
David Devore
00:05:14And I ended up in India at this really intensive spiritual retreat.
David Devore
00:05:18And during this retreat, in a contemplation.
David Devore
00:05:21And it was intense.
David Devore
00:05:23It was like six in the morning till two in the morning sometimes.
David Devore
00:05:26Spiritual practices, teachings, contemplations, it really, really pushed me.
David Devore
00:05:31But I began to see the ways in which the messages that I received about being gay as a child, the thousands of messages, the things that I heard on tv, the thing that I heard my mother say in the station wagon, the thing that my father used to say at dinner, just these little comments that they had been stored up within me, that I'd repressed them, but yet they were incredibly active in my perception.
David Devore
00:05:57They were literally coloring the lens of my perception in life in all areas and holding me back and making me feel stuck.
David Devore
00:06:05And I came to see that I had developed masks that I was wearing to survive my life as a gay boy, to fit in, to be more like everybody else, because all I wanted was love and acceptance, which is what we all want, right?
David Devore
00:06:19And that when I made that discovery, I realized that I wasn't really presenting as my authentic self because I had become habituated to be more masculine, to be less sensitive, to be less empathic.
David Devore
00:06:30And that some of the gifts that naturally came from me being gay in the challenges of gay life, such as that sensitivity, I was pushing down because I thought that that would be unacceptable.
David Devore
00:06:40Because I learned boys don't cry, boys aren't sensitive.
David Devore
00:06:43And yet those are the gifts that I now have embraced and I'm leading with in the work that I do because it's so important in the field of doing, of coaching, and especially with gay men and the work that I do to have that sense of deeper compassion and empathy and understanding that we often get on the journey of a gay person when we are in a marginalized community and experience that kind of rejection, it opens our heart up to other marginalized communities and people on that path.
David Devore
00:07:11And that's been the impetus for my work in a nutshell.
Heather Hester
00:07:16That's amazing.
Heather Hester
00:07:17So before, you were already doing kind of doing this kind of work, but you just really, really broadened, right?
Heather Hester
00:07:26Like, opened your arms and embraced?
David Devore
00:07:28Yes.
David Devore
00:07:30Oh, my gosh.
David Devore
00:07:31It changed everything.
David Devore
00:07:32Because, you know, I started when I was 25 as a wellness coach and fitness trainer.
David Devore
00:07:36When I.
David Devore
00:07:37When I turned 30, I went back to graduate school to become a master's level therapist, psychotherapist.
David Devore
00:07:44And in the beginning, I was very intellectual and very mind and body.
David Devore
00:07:49But I was missing that spiritual connection for myself that I lost somewhere in my childhood because I felt abandoned by my Catholic upbringing and by my God.
David Devore
00:07:58And I was trying to find that connection again.
David Devore
00:08:01And that was another part of the reason that I went more deeply into the spiritual journey was realizing that that was missing.
David Devore
00:08:08And then on the other side of it, I ended up working with a spiritual coach, and I did a lot of much deeper healing.
David Devore
00:08:15So now in my practice and working with people, I can go much deeper with them faster because I've been there and because I know what that terrain looks like and I'm not afraid of it.
David Devore
00:08:26And I can hold the space without judgment because I really do feel compassion because I can see it and I'm not afraid of it myself.
David Devore
00:08:36Whereas in the past I was more intellectual and I was kind of afraid of getting into the nitty gritty because I would.
David Devore
00:08:42Of my own fear about my own pain.
Heather Hester
00:08:45Right?
David Devore
00:08:45Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:08:46Right?
David Devore
00:08:46Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:08:47Oh, that makes so much sense.
Heather Hester
00:08:49Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester
00:08:49I mean, the levels deeper that you can go now are just extraordinary.
Heather Hester
00:08:55And being able to touch on those topics of.
Heather Hester
00:08:59I mean, kind of.
Heather Hester
00:09:00I'm going to use different words that that whole idea of toxic masculinity all those things, right?
Heather Hester
00:09:06Boys cry.
Heather Hester
00:09:07Boys aren't sensitive.
Heather Hester
00:09:08Boys aren't supposed to be.
Heather Hester
00:09:09This, this and this toxic masculinity, which is just so dangerous for and for gay men in particular.
Heather Hester
00:09:18But I, you know, widen that to be all men.
Heather Hester
00:09:21I mean, I think that that is just so, so dangerous.
Heather Hester
00:09:27Definitely.
Heather Hester
00:09:28I mean, I think even mixed with the pieces of, you know, shame and all of that internalized, just stuff for your entire life.
Heather Hester
00:09:41So can you talk a little bit about that process of, like, really, like, when you were beginning to pick it apart because you knew.
Heather Hester
00:09:51I mean, I'm sure on an intellectual level, even all that time you knew there was stuff in there that you were like, we're not going there.
Heather Hester
00:09:58That's just.
Heather Hester
00:09:59No, but then once you started kind of like peeling away those layers and, like, what was that like?
Heather Hester
00:10:07And what did you really.
David Devore
00:10:11Like?
Heather Hester
00:10:11How did you begin to come to terms with and heal and just let go of those things?
David Devore
00:10:18Well, when I first became aware of it, I almost couldn't believe that it was, like, right under my nose, you know, like, it didn't make sense to me because I'm a pretty intuitive person.
David Devore
00:10:28But I was so blindsided by the shame and internalized homophobia that my ego presentation, the mask that I created to survive my life, could not withstand shame.
David Devore
00:10:39It couldn't, because I was in survival mode.
David Devore
00:10:42Right.
David Devore
00:10:43So the what.
David Devore
00:10:43The way I was projecting myself into the world, that was way too vulnerable.
David Devore
00:10:48And the first time that I actually went into that space, I consider it to be like this.
David Devore
00:10:52A dark cavern that I created within myself that housed all of those experiences of feeling rejected by the world around me that I was desperately afraid to go into because of the pain of it.
David Devore
00:11:03When I first was able to just say out loud that I actually hated myself for being gay as a child, that I wished it wouldn't happen.
David Devore
00:11:15There was something really magical in that first recognition.
David Devore
00:11:18It almost felt like that dark cavern that I had created.
David Devore
00:11:21I realized that it wasn't a dark cavern and it was illuminated by light.
David Devore
00:11:28And although it was painful and I felt the deep pain of that rejection, it was so freeing for me.
David Devore
00:11:35Me to.
David Devore
00:11:35It was a.
David Devore
00:11:36It was a real step of authenticity for me because it was the first time I made a real emotional connection to those feelings that I had been hiding because I became habituated in survival to run through my life and not look back, to pretend that everything was okay and that I was okay.
David Devore
00:11:55And it was those first steps of making that connection.
David Devore
00:11:58And I came to see that I always had an anxiety Disorder.
David Devore
00:12:02And that for me, the symptoms of shame very much mimic anxiety.
David Devore
00:12:07And it's sort of like facing a fight or flight situation.
David Devore
00:12:10I tend to run, I tend to pretend, or I used to pretend to, by anesthetizing myself, by numbing out in any way that I could.
David Devore
00:12:18And when I became aware of that, I could see where those triggers came from.
David Devore
00:12:23Does that make sense?
David Devore
00:12:24And how they manifested in my body in terms of anxiety.
David Devore
00:12:28And that became very powerful, because what I recognized is in this work is that as a queer person, part of the pathway and the journey is learning to accept and embrace our experiences of shame and homophobia and recognize the triggers in the way that they feel and also understand where they originally came from, and continuing to embrace the child that we once were as the adult, now as the hero who can come back and literally hold that child and say, yes, I'm going to listen to you.
David Devore
00:13:00I'm going to stay with you.
David Devore
00:13:01And I realized how much I had abandoned myself and that I was holding myself hostage in this dark cavern of bad me, this part of myself that I was so afraid of and what a disservice I did to myself.
David Devore
00:13:15And it's this lifelong process I consider to be just such a part of the path of being queer that we come to it every day.
David Devore
00:13:24And just like in my yoga practice, I come to it every day.
David Devore
00:13:26Sometimes I might feel a little triggered.
David Devore
00:13:28And I know how to come to myself and learn to embrace it and take the time out to acknowledge and recognize it and look at myself in the mirror and really develop a deeper sense of self, compassion and intimacy, which is very much what I teach with my clients.
Heather Hester
00:13:45It is so wonderful.
Heather Hester
00:13:47So really, it's something that.
Heather Hester
00:13:49And it makes total sense to me as I'm, you know, as I'm listening to this, to what you're saying is that it's something that you are forever healing.
David Devore
00:13:59Yes.
David Devore
00:14:00I wanted to arrive at a place with this work where I could be like, I remember shame.
David Devore
00:14:05I remember internalized homophobia.
David Devore
00:14:06I know it really.
David Devore
00:14:07It's terrible, but I have the solution.
David Devore
00:14:10And then I would have a shame moment.
David Devore
00:14:12I would have a shame storm.
David Devore
00:14:14You know what I mean?
David Devore
00:14:14And then I'd be like, oh, my gosh, should I talk about having shame?
David Devore
00:14:19And then I remember talking to a friend, and he was like, don't talk about your shame experience.
David Devore
00:14:22Aren't you supposed to be working with people and helping get rid of it?
David Devore
00:14:26And then I had this aha moment that was like, you know, the human mind is sort of wired for Shame as we compare ourselves to other people and feel less than or more in those situations, the way that we evaluate ourselves and the ways in which we're different.
David Devore
00:14:39And we all have a shame arsenal in our.
David Devore
00:14:40In our mind, in terms of the experiences that we had that made us feel different, undeserving, unworthy, and unlovable.
David Devore
00:14:48This is magnified often for LGBT TQ children because we are ostracized.
David Devore
00:14:54We are often ostracized within religion and feeling like that we're going to hell, that we're the black sheep, you know, there's a whole moral judgment that also comes into it in terms of sexuality that further compounds the experience of shame, depending on where you.
David Devore
00:15:10What kind of a religion I guess you grow up in.
David Devore
00:15:12But many religions are condemning of it, of course, because they very much mimic the heteronormative narrative that has always been out there, which is the majority rules, and this is the way that it goes.
David Devore
00:15:24And queer children, then, often, depending on how much they buy into that religious system, can feel such a tremendous sense of rejection and abandon and a sense of hopelessness.
David Devore
00:15:35And this is why it's dangerous for children as they're processing who they are.
David Devore
00:15:40And in school systems, where there is a lot of bullying that happens out there, that children have a place to feel a sense of support and love and unconditional love for who they are in a world that feels like it could be that it's continuously berating them.
David Devore
00:15:56And that hopelessness that creates a real sense of separation and anxiety for a child is what can ultimately lead to teen suicides, as they feel that there's absolutely no hope.
David Devore
00:16:07They're completely on their own.
David Devore
00:16:08Nobody loves them, their family is rejecting them.
David Devore
00:16:10Every.
David Devore
00:16:11The world is rejecting them in their environment.
David Devore
00:16:14And it's terrifying.
David Devore
00:16:15And that's where the role of parents comes in.
David Devore
00:16:17And why I'm so passionate about this and being here is that, you know, and that you're doing this work because.
David Devore
00:16:24And I've actually been getting parents who come into my lives now who have questions about their queer children or, you know, queer children that are coming out.
David Devore
00:16:32And it is.
David Devore
00:16:34I can't even emphasize how powerful that relationship is for a child and how courageous a child has to be to come out, how terrifying it is in terms of the rejection that could happen and to really honor that as being one of the most beautiful experiences that you could ever have with your child in terms of bonding.
Heather Hester
00:16:58Right.
Heather Hester
00:16:59I mean, so we're so lucky.
David Devore
00:17:01Yeah, it's.
Heather Hester
00:17:02It's an honor.
David Devore
00:17:03Yeah.
David Devore
00:17:05Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:17:05I mean, because 1,000% like the courage that it takes.
Heather Hester
00:17:12And I didn't realize that at the time.
Heather Hester
00:17:17You know, I mean, this is something that has been a.
Heather Hester
00:17:19In hindsight or in retrospect, as I've learned things.
Heather Hester
00:17:23But, you know, when.
Heather Hester
00:17:24By the time that your child shares this information with you, this is something they have been thinking about and knowing about themselves for a long time.
David Devore
00:17:34Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:17:34And already all of that stuff that's been built up.
Heather Hester
00:17:39Right.
Heather Hester
00:17:39Already going, like, it's already stirring in there.
Heather Hester
00:17:42So the way that we respond in the moment and in those first moments is really important.
David Devore
00:17:49Yes, it really is.
David Devore
00:17:51And that's why I think it's important for parents, if they suspect that their children are queer, to become educated about what it is to be queer.
David Devore
00:18:01When I came out to my mother, she was really brilliant.
David Devore
00:18:04When I came out to her, I have an amazing mother.
David Devore
00:18:07But after I told her, and I was very emotional about it because I knew that she would.
David Devore
00:18:11I was afraid she'd be disappointed in me.
David Devore
00:18:13I was afraid that she'd be disappointed about, you know, the wife that I might have and the children and the life that she had dreamed for me.
David Devore
00:18:20And she said, you know, David, I don't know very much about what it is to be gay.
David Devore
00:18:24I don't think I know anyone who's gay.
David Devore
00:18:26But all I know is that I love you and I'm going to learn.
David Devore
00:18:30And she joined PFLAG on her own and she did her own research.
David Devore
00:18:34And from that moment, we had a conversation about it that's continued on all of these years.
David Devore
00:18:42And over time, she became more educated and had more experience around queer life.
David Devore
00:18:48And so whatever homophobia that she had, just based on her limited experience, the answer to homophobia is education and knowledge.
David Devore
00:18:57So when we say, as a queer person, that there's so much ignorance out there and we call people ignorant, I really mean it in a real way.
David Devore
00:19:05It's like when you grow up in a small town, you are ignorant to that from lack of experience and knowledge.
David Devore
00:19:10If I hadn't been gay, I would have been homophobic like my parents, because that's the environment that I came from.
David Devore
00:19:18So the give and take in the relationship between the parent and the child is that the child has compassion for the parent and the parent has compassion for the child in terms of what's happening.
Heather Hester
00:19:30Right, Right.
Heather Hester
00:19:31And it's very much that, like, recognizing the humanity in each other.
David Devore
00:19:37Right.
Heather Hester
00:19:38Just being human.
Heather Hester
00:19:40And I think so many times, you know, coming from the parent point of view, like, parents are expected to be perfect, like there's this expectation that parents are not going to mess up.
Heather Hester
00:19:50We're not going to make everything that we ever suggest or say is going to be the, you know, whatever, the very best thing.
Heather Hester
00:19:58Well, it's not right.
Heather Hester
00:19:59And being able to just recognize that about yourself, like, give yourself some grace and be that, you know, it's super vulnerable.
Heather Hester
00:20:12But putting yourself in that vulnerable position with your kids and being like, look, I don't know everything I want to learn, but I am going to mess up.
Heather Hester
00:20:20So I need for you to be patient with me as I learn, as I met.
Heather Hester
00:20:25And when I do mess up, please tell me.
David Devore
00:20:27Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:20:27If I say something that's wrong, tell me, because that's the only way that I'm going to learn.
David Devore
00:20:32Exactly.
David Devore
00:20:33Exactly.
David Devore
00:20:34And being in that dialogue and keeping it open and continuing the conversation.
David Devore
00:20:39I was actually just speaking with a gentleman today who came out to his parents, and then they never spoke about it again.
David Devore
00:20:45It was a taboo topic.
David Devore
00:20:47So that really limited his relationship with them in the future because he just goes on holidays, they have superficial conversation.
David Devore
00:20:54He doesn't really.
David Devore
00:20:55They haven't grown and they don't know each other the way that they could in the relationship if there was that openness, which is really tragic.
David Devore
00:21:04Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:21:06Really, really tragic.
David Devore
00:21:08Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:21:09And I always think, and I think, you know, you kind of go through the stages of grief when dealing with something like that.
Heather Hester
00:21:18Like, I'm sure this.
Heather Hester
00:21:19This young person is or has or, you know, will be where you kind of hope.
Heather Hester
00:21:24Right.
Heather Hester
00:21:24There's that hope.
Heather Hester
00:21:25And I'm going to keep trying.
Heather Hester
00:21:26And then you realize, and you're like.
Heather Hester
00:21:28And you're angry then because you're thinking, these are my parents.
David Devore
00:21:32Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:21:33Their child.
David Devore
00:21:35Right.
Heather Hester
00:21:36And then you get to the place where you're, like, sad for them because they're missing out on so much.
David Devore
00:21:42Yeah, they're missing out on so much.
Heather Hester
00:21:45I mean, the joy alone that they're missing out on.
Heather Hester
00:21:48I always think, oh, my gosh, that's just so tragic.
Heather Hester
00:21:52It is.
David Devore
00:21:53It is really tragic.
David Devore
00:21:55And that's why by becoming more educated and finding support groups like what you're doing here, finding a place to be in conversation and to really begin to address the inner fears that parents have for their children being queer, which is very natural, I'm sure, that you might have experienced this, that the first thought you might have had is like, is he going to get bullied?
David Devore
00:22:16Is he going to be rejected?
David Devore
00:22:18How is it going to affect his life?
David Devore
00:22:20Will he be limited in some way because of it?
David Devore
00:22:22And what kind of Pain will.
David Devore
00:22:25Would.
David Devore
00:22:26Is he going through or will he go through in his life?
David Devore
00:22:29And when parents have a lot of fear that they haven't processed that way, then in terms of who they are energetically when their child comes out to them, when you bring your own fear into the equation of your vulnerable child coming out, then you're sort of taking away that experience from them and you're shadowing it with fear and with doubt.
David Devore
00:22:52So the most important thing, I really think is in terms of holding the space when a parent has done their work and is feeling comfortable with their own fears about it, with their own homophobia, with their own judgments about it, and get that and work on that part of it.
David Devore
00:23:09The more that a parent can just show up and not have to really say anything, but maybe just ask questions about their experience and what it's been like and just hold the space for them with love, that that's exactly what a child needs.
David Devore
00:23:24Because they're afraid that there's going to be.
David Devore
00:23:26They're going to be interrogated, that they're going to be.
David Devore
00:23:29All of the fear is going to come out in these questions that's going to pull the child further back and away in his coming out moment.
David Devore
00:23:36Because the coming out moment is for the kid.
David Devore
00:23:38It's not for the parents.
David Devore
00:23:40It's one of the most important things the child will do in their relationship with you.
David Devore
00:23:44And it can be the catalyst for a beautiful, deep and fulfilling relationship by.
David Devore
00:23:50In that moment.
Heather Hester
00:23:53Yes.
Heather Hester
00:23:54Oh, my goodness, yes.
Heather Hester
00:23:56And I will say my only caveat for that is that if you do mess it up, which many of us have, I mean, we messed it up in the sense that we weren't prepared, we didn't know.
Heather Hester
00:24:11And so we asked the dumb questions like, are you sure?
David Devore
00:24:14Right.
Heather Hester
00:24:15Like, we still cannot even believe we asked that question.
Heather Hester
00:24:18And we were not educated, we did not understand.
Heather Hester
00:24:22So we asked a lot of questions that now I know and like, to your point exactly.
Heather Hester
00:24:29Are questions that need to be asked.
David Devore
00:24:33To.
Heather Hester
00:24:36Therapist or when you're in a P.
Heather Hester
00:24:38FLAG meeting or to someone like me or to you.
Heather Hester
00:24:41And that's where you learn and that's where you process all of this so that you can then come into this space like you were just saying, and just be curious.
David Devore
00:24:51Right.
Heather Hester
00:24:52Like I want to hear what you have to say and then kind of take all of that.
Heather Hester
00:24:57Right?
David Devore
00:24:57Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:24:58And creating that space once we learned how to do that.
Heather Hester
00:25:03Right.
Heather Hester
00:25:03Was so fascinating.
Heather Hester
00:25:05And not just for, you know, our son who was coming out at the time, but then for his siblings as well, and the whole family experience.
Heather Hester
00:25:15Right.
Heather Hester
00:25:15Like it shifts the entire energy of the family.
David Devore
00:25:19Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:25:20And I think a piece of that too for parents is you don't have to be perfect.
David Devore
00:25:25Exactly.
Heather Hester
00:25:27Don't be perfect.
Heather Hester
00:25:28Because that's just no fun.
David Devore
00:25:30Right.
Heather Hester
00:25:30And.
Heather Hester
00:25:31Right.
Heather Hester
00:25:31And it limits you in the connection that you can have with your child and your children, the connection you can have with your partner that you can have with other humans in your life.
Heather Hester
00:25:44It just takes away so much joy.
David Devore
00:25:48Yeah.
David Devore
00:25:49And to maintain some sense of humor about yourself and your relationship and it doesn't have to be so incredibly serious and heavy.
David Devore
00:25:58There can be some levity with it as well, which I think is really helpful.
Heather Hester
00:26:02Well, it is just cutting yourself some slack.
David Devore
00:26:05Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:26:06And realizing that you are going to mess up like you just are.
David Devore
00:26:11Exactly.
David Devore
00:26:11But then it's a conversation.
David Devore
00:26:13It's a conversation that will go on and on.
David Devore
00:26:15And as a 55 year old man, in retrospect, and just as I said, watching the way that my relationship developed with both of my parents, I, you know, it blew my mind.
David Devore
00:26:25It blew my mind that my partner was then in the weddings of my sisters and in the family picture.
David Devore
00:26:30And you know, just as we grew, you know, it just became just absolutely normal that I'm gay and that I, you know, have a partner.
David Devore
00:26:40And I didn't expect that.
David Devore
00:26:42You know, I was really, I was blown away by that.
David Devore
00:26:44I didn't know that that was even going to be a possibility in terms of their deeper acceptance and love for me.
Heather Hester
00:26:53I mean that is such a really like such an incredible testament especially for our generation.
Heather Hester
00:26:59Right.
Heather Hester
00:26:59Like for our parents generation.
Heather Hester
00:27:02And to be able to.
Heather Hester
00:27:04And coming from a Catholic background which, you know, has all of its own stuff.
Heather Hester
00:27:09Just from a Protestant like, you know, really conservative Protestant background.
Heather Hester
00:27:14Right.
Heather Hester
00:27:14Like there's, there's law stuff that comes with that.
Heather Hester
00:27:17So being able to hear you and see you and say, okay, like we're gonna totally figure this out.
Heather Hester
00:27:26And that's over here.
Heather Hester
00:27:27Right?
David Devore
00:27:28Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:27:29And we were talking about this a little bit before.
Heather Hester
00:27:32You don't have to be part of that.
Heather Hester
00:27:35I can totally understand why that just doesn't work for you anymore.
David Devore
00:27:38Right.
David Devore
00:27:39Right.
David Devore
00:27:40Yes, exactly.
David Devore
00:27:42Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:27:44Bravo.
Heather Hester
00:27:45Bravo to your parents.
David Devore
00:27:47Yeah.
David Devore
00:27:47I was lucky.
David Devore
00:27:48My dad was a little tougher.
David Devore
00:27:49He was really.
David Devore
00:27:50His biggest fear was that I would be alone.
David Devore
00:27:53And he didn't.
David Devore
00:27:55He just saw it as being.
David Devore
00:27:56And he just said, you need to have a woman.
David Devore
00:27:59You need to have a woman.
David Devore
00:28:00He used to always give me this speech that I called man needs a woman speech at Dinner, like after dinner, he'd be like, if I didn't have your mom, I'd have another woman.
David Devore
00:28:07And you need to have a woman.
David Devore
00:28:09And when I came out to him, I was talking to my mom because I already come out to her.
David Devore
00:28:13And he had been talking to my sisters, asking if they thought that I was gay.
David Devore
00:28:17And he kept doing the man needs a woman speech, until one day he said, so David, why is it that you aren't dating women?
David Devore
00:28:25And I said, it's because I'm gay.
David Devore
00:28:27And he cried.
David Devore
00:28:28He cried harder than I've ever seen him cry.
David Devore
00:28:30Like, he sobbed because he was.
David Devore
00:28:32But I realized it was because he was afraid for me.
David Devore
00:28:35And I realized it was because he loved me.
David Devore
00:28:37It wasn't that he was rejecting me.
David Devore
00:28:39It was that he was afraid of what my what.
David Devore
00:28:41How my life would be harmed by it, by the opportunities that I might not have, by the rejection that I would experience, by the pain of what it would be.
David Devore
00:28:51And that is something else that my mom said to me when I came out, because I came out in like my senior year of college and she just grabbed my hand and she said, I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of that alone.
David Devore
00:29:01And that was so powerful, you know, And I didn't even think about that.
David Devore
00:29:05But it's like I was completely alone in it for a long time and just in my own mind about it.
David Devore
00:29:12And it's terrifying to live with that duality.
David Devore
00:29:15It's terrifying to think like there's something about me that inherently people will reject that, you know, it's an awful feeling to live in that duality.
David Devore
00:29:29And that's why coming out.
David Devore
00:29:30So important.
Heather Hester
00:29:31Yes, so important.
Heather Hester
00:29:33And why it's really important also to understand, understand what is going on and to see why that potentially can lead to maladaptive coping mechanisms.
David Devore
00:29:47Right.
Heather Hester
00:29:47Like any kind of substance use or abuse, any kind of self harm, you know, dangerous online behaviors.
Heather Hester
00:29:56Right.
Heather Hester
00:29:56Like there's a lot of different pieces to that that are really important to understand why that's going on and because I think, you know, quite common right now is to see kids, you know, who do are, who are coming out in high school, but they've known since middle school, right?
Heather Hester
00:30:16So they've known since they were like 12 or 13, but they haven't said anything and they didn't understand exactly what they knew.
Heather Hester
00:30:23So they were going through this whole.
Heather Hester
00:30:25When it.
Heather Hester
00:30:26Those ages are such horrible ages to begin with, right?
Heather Hester
00:30:30Like just the cult developmental stages.
Heather Hester
00:30:33And then you add like that extra layer of shame yes.
Heather Hester
00:30:37Right.
Heather Hester
00:30:37I mean, down to the whole shame piece.
Heather Hester
00:30:39And they're sitting in that by themselves for these years.
Heather Hester
00:30:44And you think.
Heather Hester
00:30:45I mean, you know, kind of like, I feel the same way as your mom.
Heather Hester
00:30:47I was like, I'm so sorry you were alone those years, and just, you know, we had no idea.
David Devore
00:30:55Right.
Heather Hester
00:30:56Well, I think that.
David Devore
00:30:57Yeah, I think that she sort of.
David Devore
00:30:59She kind of innately knew that, but she didn't know exactly how to frame it or what it was in her experience.
David Devore
00:31:06Yeah, she really.
David Devore
00:31:09She surprised me so much with her graciousness around all of it.
David Devore
00:32:08We did have conversations about whether she did tell me that she was saddened by the wife and children that I would never have, like, letting that go.
David Devore
00:32:18And we processed that, which is definitely a thought that I think a lot of parents have.
David Devore
00:32:24And she remained incredibly open and curious.
David Devore
00:32:30And we just had this really.
David Devore
00:32:31We've developed this banter where there's just an open.
David Devore
00:32:35It's just part of the way that we converse.
David Devore
00:32:37It deepened our relationship so much.
David Devore
00:32:41Yes.
David Devore
00:32:41Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:32:42Right.
Heather Hester
00:32:43It's the coolest thing ever.
David Devore
00:32:44Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:32:44I mean, I just.
David Devore
00:32:46It's such an opportunity for bonding and for.
David Devore
00:32:49To get closer.
Heather Hester
00:32:51I mean, and the things that it is.
Heather Hester
00:32:54I mean, and I'm sure for you, like, you felt like you could just talk to her.
Heather Hester
00:32:58Right.
Heather Hester
00:32:58And then there wasn't going to be a judgment.
Heather Hester
00:33:00There wasn't going to be any kind of like, well, you should.
Heather Hester
00:33:03You know, none of the should was going on.
Heather Hester
00:33:06And.
Heather Hester
00:33:06And I.
Heather Hester
00:33:08I feel that way with Connor whenever, you know, he's telling me things, and I think I'm so lucky.
Heather Hester
00:33:14Like.
David Devore
00:33:14Right.
David Devore
00:33:15Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:33:16Well, that's.
Heather Hester
00:33:17That's a lot of information.
David Devore
00:33:18Yeah.
David Devore
00:33:20I think that one of the.
Heather Hester
00:33:21Would take any day, Right?
David Devore
00:33:23Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:33:23Yeah.
David Devore
00:33:24And I think that one of the things.
David Devore
00:33:26One of the things to recognize is that I think that when.
David Devore
00:33:30When a parent believes, or even a child believes that it's.
David Devore
00:33:34It's that your sexuality is a choice that really confuses things a lot.
David Devore
00:33:41Instead of recognizing that I am innately gay in the same way that you're innately straight.
David Devore
00:33:47And I even brought that to my mom's attention because I said, mom, imagine if you lived in a world where everybody was saying, becky, you need to settle down with a nice woman and have a family, and you need to.
David Devore
00:33:58That's what you need to be doing.
David Devore
00:34:00What would that feel like to you?
David Devore
00:34:02And she thought about it for a few minutes and she just.
David Devore
00:34:04She said, I can't even imagine that.
David Devore
00:34:06And I said, it's exactly how it feels.
David Devore
00:34:08For me, I'm innately gay.
David Devore
00:34:10I feel that I've always been gay.
David Devore
00:34:12It's just a part of who I am.
David Devore
00:34:14And as a straight person, we don't have a moment where.
David Devore
00:34:16Where we're like, I identify as straight, I'm coming out, I'm straight.
David Devore
00:34:19It's just assumed that someone is straight.
David Devore
00:34:20Right.
David Devore
00:34:21So when we can get rid.
David Devore
00:34:24As a parent, when you can begin to just accept the fact that your child is innately who they are, then we're not even thinking about it being something that can be changed, that it can be something that could be cured or fixed or, you know, you can just allow it to be.
David Devore
00:34:42Just accept exactly what it is in that moment.
David Devore
00:34:45And even if it is some sort of a phase or maybe that person is bisexual or they're on a journey of discovery and sexuality is incredibly fluid.
David Devore
00:34:54I always say people are what they say they are.
David Devore
00:34:57Just stay with them.
David Devore
00:34:58They can identify any way they want.
David Devore
00:35:00They can change their mind, they can explore, they can experiment.
David Devore
00:35:03What they say they are is what they are.
David Devore
00:35:05And we just have to honor and acknowledge that as just being their truth.
Heather Hester
00:35:09Right, right, exactly.
Heather Hester
00:35:11And not freak out.
David Devore
00:35:13Right.
Heather Hester
00:35:13I mean, there's.
Heather Hester
00:35:15There's that potential when there is fluidity involved to, like, freak out and be like, but I need.
Heather Hester
00:35:20I need to know something.
Heather Hester
00:35:21Right?
Heather Hester
00:35:21Well.
Heather Hester
00:35:22And we don't.
Heather Hester
00:35:23And we get to be uncomfortable.
Heather Hester
00:35:24If that makes you uncomfortable, then that's.
Heather Hester
00:35:26You just get to be uncomfortable.
David Devore
00:35:27Exactly.
David Devore
00:35:28Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:35:29That is her journey.
Heather Hester
00:35:30Right.
Heather Hester
00:35:31That's there.
Heather Hester
00:35:32And there's nothing wrong with it.
Heather Hester
00:35:33And I think that's what's really hard to wrap your head around.
Heather Hester
00:35:40We don't need boxes.
Heather Hester
00:35:41Right.
Heather Hester
00:35:42They don't have to check a box.
David Devore
00:35:43And that's okay, Right, Right, right.
Heather Hester
00:35:48And being sitting in that uncomfortable space where you're just like, I just don't know.
Heather Hester
00:35:52That's actually really good.
Heather Hester
00:35:54Like, it's.
Heather Hester
00:35:56Because to me, that's always like, this is a sign of incredible growth.
Heather Hester
00:35:59So just like, be like, I'm.
Heather Hester
00:36:01I am growing right now.
David Devore
00:36:03Yeah, yeah.
Heather Hester
00:36:05Comfortable.
Heather Hester
00:36:05But I'm growing.
David Devore
00:36:07And that it's okay for it to be uncomfortable and it's okay for it to be.
David Devore
00:36:10To just.
David Devore
00:36:12It doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.
David Devore
00:36:14It doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with that.
David Devore
00:36:16It's just.
David Devore
00:36:16You're experiencing it as well.
David Devore
00:36:18And the more that a person can be transparent as a parent with their child in that way, the more it encourages the child to be more honest about their experience as well.
Heather Hester
00:36:29Exactly, exactly.
Heather Hester
00:36:31And I think just kind of.
Heather Hester
00:36:35This just popped into my head, but kind of at the end of the day, because I think parents are always like, well, then what can I do?
Heather Hester
00:36:39Right?
Heather Hester
00:36:39If we're.
Heather Hester
00:36:40If we're having all of this kind of open flowiness, right?
Heather Hester
00:36:44The one thing, right, we can't control our kids.
Heather Hester
00:36:47So that's.
Heather Hester
00:36:48Let's just like put that out there.
Heather Hester
00:36:50We've never been able to control them.
Heather Hester
00:36:51That is just a fallacy, something that's made up.
Heather Hester
00:36:56What we can do is let them know what their choices are.
Heather Hester
00:37:00And this not being a choice, but I mean.
Heather Hester
00:37:02And as they live their life, right, we can say, we are.
Heather Hester
00:37:06We here's safety.
Heather Hester
00:37:09We worry about your safety.
Heather Hester
00:37:10We want you to be safe.
Heather Hester
00:37:11We want you to be happy.
Heather Hester
00:37:13And instead of saying, well, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.
Heather Hester
00:37:16Here are all the choices, right?
Heather Hester
00:37:18Here are all the choices you have in all of these situations.
Heather Hester
00:37:22Let's talk about it.
Heather Hester
00:37:23And then that's empowering for them, and that's taking the focus off, because I think another thing, and I'm not.
Heather Hester
00:37:32I don't know if I'd love to hear what you think about this, but that when it's not a child, but anyone comes out, right?
Heather Hester
00:37:40That is.
Heather Hester
00:37:41The full focus is, I am gay or I am bisexual or whatever you're coming out as.
Heather Hester
00:37:51And that's like, that's who I am.
Heather Hester
00:37:52That's the 100% identity.
Heather Hester
00:37:55When it's really not.
Heather Hester
00:37:56It's like, that's a piece of who you are.
David Devore
00:37:57Yeah, right.
David Devore
00:37:58Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:37:58Just like being straight is a piece of who I am.
David Devore
00:38:01Yes.
Heather Hester
00:38:02And so getting to that place of being able to have all these other conversations around it and just be, you know, we're going to talk about these, all these other things, right?
Heather Hester
00:38:12Because yes, this does.
Heather Hester
00:38:13These shifts choices that you have out in the world, Right.
Heather Hester
00:38:18And this does.
Heather Hester
00:38:20But it's a shift.
Heather Hester
00:38:21It's not exactly.
David Devore
00:38:24And it really recognizes that we as human beings are more similar than we are different.
David Devore
00:38:29And sometimes with sexuality and sexual identification, that difference makes us feel like we're in a completely different tribe.
David Devore
00:38:36And that's why we move to gay neighborhoods and surround ourselves with only gay people sometimes in the beginning is just to kind of find our tribe and find our place.
David Devore
00:38:45What I've realized in my journey, you know, and I did that right away because when I, When I, you know, in the late 80s, when I moved to Chicago, I did.
David Devore
00:38:53There was no mentorship, there was no social Media.
David Devore
00:38:56I didn't even know what gay life was.
David Devore
00:38:57So I really moved to the city to discover myself and surround myself by my.
David Devore
00:39:02With my peers and discover what that was all about.
David Devore
00:39:04But as I grew.
David Devore
00:39:06As I grew up and I became to love and accept myself more, I came to see more and more in my relationships with straight men, straight women, gay men, people of all different, you know, orientations that it doesn't matter as much.
David Devore
00:39:23What matters is what we have in common.
David Devore
00:39:25We have way more in common than just who we sleep with and who we are sexually, but because there's such a spotlight that's put on the sexual part of it, and that's where morality also comes into it, where it's sort of like the big thing that comes in my lives all the time is like, you're sinning, you need to repent.
David Devore
00:39:45And there's an argument that's always being made about whether the morality of your sexuality, which I think is true in the heterosexual world too.
David Devore
00:39:54My sisters both said they felt very guilty being Catholic and their sexual exploration as younger people.
David Devore
00:40:00It's sort of a double whammy then, when you're a queer person.
David Devore
00:40:04But to the degree that the religion is a part of the family unit can be.
David Devore
00:40:07The degree that there's a difficulty in conflict with parents in terms of what they believe, that God is condemning their child to hell and that it's their responsibility to also condemn because of the religion, that those things have to be put in check as well.
Heather Hester
00:40:23Right.
Heather Hester
00:40:23Well, that's just.
Heather Hester
00:40:24That's another layer.
David Devore
00:40:25It's a big layer.
David Devore
00:40:26It is.
David Devore
00:40:26It's a huge one.
David Devore
00:40:27And that.
David Devore
00:40:27That's actually one of the most difficult.
David Devore
00:40:29I would say that religion is one of the biggest reasons why parents ostracize children who come out and send them on the street.
David Devore
00:40:36Because of the religion.
David Devore
00:40:37Religion and.
Heather Hester
00:40:39For sure.
David Devore
00:40:39Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:40:41Which.
Heather Hester
00:40:41I mean, holy cow.
Heather Hester
00:40:46I just.
Heather Hester
00:40:49I don't have words.
Heather Hester
00:40:50I mean, the words.
Heather Hester
00:40:52It is still very difficult for me, having grown up in that environment, to think that anyone could do that.
David Devore
00:41:03Yeah.
David Devore
00:41:04To a child.
Heather Hester
00:41:06To their child, who has, like, you know, told them, like, the most personal thing about themselves.
Heather Hester
00:41:12Right.
Heather Hester
00:41:13And shared something that was so difficult to share.
Heather Hester
00:41:16And then to be, you know, thrown out or ostracized or, you know, you name the terrible stories.
Heather Hester
00:41:22You've heard many of them.
David Devore
00:41:24Yes.
David Devore
00:41:25I just recently was working with a client who was a Mormon.
David Devore
00:41:30He grew up Mormon.
David Devore
00:41:31And when he came out to his parents, they.
David Devore
00:41:34Their community did a shunning ceremony where they put him in the center of A circle.
David Devore
00:41:38And they all were standing around him, and they at the same time turned their backs on him, and they opened the circle and he left, and he.
David Devore
00:41:46He never saw any of them again.
David Devore
00:41:48His entire family and the entire community.
David Devore
00:41:51And he was 17 years old, and he had to find his own way.
David Devore
00:41:55And as a result of the shame of that and losing your whole community at that age, he became really involved in alcohol and drug usage, and he tried to kill himself a couple of times.
David Devore
00:42:08He was in such a deep sense of shame and hopelessness as a result of the isolation that he felt around his sexuality and being rejected, that it almost cost him his life.
Heather Hester
00:42:21It's a miracle it did.
David Devore
00:42:23I know.
David Devore
00:42:24It's like we're.
David Devore
00:42:25You know, he didn't have any resources or anything.
David Devore
00:42:27He was just on the street.
David Devore
00:42:28It's just.
David Devore
00:42:29I can't even imagine that.
Heather Hester
00:42:30I cannot even.
Heather Hester
00:42:31I just.
Heather Hester
00:42:33That's why I cry all the time.
Heather Hester
00:42:34I hear all these stories.
David Devore
00:42:35Yeah.
David Devore
00:42:36It's awful.
Heather Hester
00:42:37Can you imagine?
Heather Hester
00:42:40I just can't.
Heather Hester
00:42:41Like, what makes one do that?
David Devore
00:42:43Right.
David Devore
00:42:44Yeah, I know.
David Devore
00:42:46It has to do with this deeper fear within the world of individual differences, which is also the same root as racism and ethnocentrism, where we're just sort of.
David Devore
00:43:00We are holding onto the majority rules, and this is how things are.
David Devore
00:43:06And anything that deviates from that is feared, and it's considered to be a threat to our life in some way, because it's different.
David Devore
00:43:20And that's the tragedy.
David Devore
00:43:21And yet, for people, like I said before, who don't have experience with it, I can understand where the homophobia comes from or who grow up in religions where they believe that.
David Devore
00:43:31It's just that as a parent, it's time to.
David Devore
00:43:34To step beyond that religion and those paradigms, and it is an opportunity for a parent to grow and to really deconstruct their own religion and thought about things, because I don't think Jesus would be into that at all.
David Devore
00:43:46That rejection.
David Devore
00:43:47Right.
David Devore
00:43:48He's like this loving hippie who's, like, all about love and peace and, you know, with.
David Devore
00:43:52And then all of the judgment and the pain and the guilt and the shame that's caused in.
David Devore
00:43:56In his name through religion.
David Devore
00:43:57It's like.
David Devore
00:43:58He'd be pissed.
Heather Hester
00:44:01Yeah.
David Devore
00:44:02You would literally.
Heather Hester
00:44:05He would just be.
Heather Hester
00:44:06I mean, I'm sad.
Heather Hester
00:44:09Heartbroken.
David Devore
00:44:11Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:44:11I do not even believe y'all got that out of what that said.
Heather Hester
00:44:16Right.
Heather Hester
00:44:16Like reading that and getting this.
David Devore
00:44:19Exactly, exactly, exactly.
Heather Hester
00:44:22It's extraordinary.
David Devore
00:44:24And he would come and he would come back and like, to rebrand Himself.
David Devore
00:44:28And then he.
David Devore
00:44:28He would be rejected by the Christian world again, because he would be an outsider hippie again.
Heather Hester
00:44:33Right.
Heather Hester
00:44:34Again, 100%.
Heather Hester
00:44:36He would be like flying the rainbow flag right along.
David Devore
00:44:39Yep, exactly.
David Devore
00:44:40He would.
Heather Hester
00:44:42Oh, my goodness.
Heather Hester
00:44:43It is so true.
Heather Hester
00:44:44Yeah, well, you know, it is one of those moments.
Heather Hester
00:44:48You know, we.
Heather Hester
00:44:50We all have, like a moment in our life.
Heather Hester
00:44:52Right.
Heather Hester
00:44:53That is a life changing moment.
Heather Hester
00:44:55It has the potential to be a life changing moment.
David Devore
00:44:57Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:44:58And for the good, they're the bad ones too.
Heather Hester
00:45:02But for the good.
Heather Hester
00:45:03And this is one of them.
David Devore
00:45:05Yep.
Heather Hester
00:45:05Your child comes out to you.
Heather Hester
00:45:07You have a choice in that moment.
David Devore
00:45:09Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:45:09What is the choice going to be?
David Devore
00:45:11Yeah, exactly.
David Devore
00:45:12And I think that one thing that you hit home a couple of times that I think is so important is that as a parent, you're a human being and you do have your own feelings and you might not do it exactly right.
David Devore
00:45:22But it's really about just having the intention of love and holding the space for your child and being in that conversation and letting them know that you're there.
David Devore
00:45:32You know what I mean?
David Devore
00:45:33I think that the one thing that a parent could ask a child is, in what way can I support you?
David Devore
00:45:39What is it that you need from me?
David Devore
00:45:41I'm 100% here, and I want you to tell me what it is that you could use from me.
David Devore
00:45:49And then that gives the child the power to.
David Devore
00:45:52To set the boundaries or to talk about what they want to talk about or ask the questions.
David Devore
00:45:56And I think that it can be really helpful.
Heather Hester
00:46:00Absolutely, absolutely.
Heather Hester
00:46:02And it's also, you know, totally okay to just say, you know, I really love you and I need a minute.
David Devore
00:46:11Yeah.
David Devore
00:46:11Yeah, I need it.
David Devore
00:46:13Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:46:13Or I just, you know, let me.
Heather Hester
00:46:15I need to, like, kind of, you know, I love you and.
David Devore
00:46:20And I need to process.
David Devore
00:46:21And it's okay to process.
David Devore
00:46:22It's okay to say, I need.
David Devore
00:46:24I need 24 hours, you know, especially, you know, if it's.
David Devore
00:46:28If it's new and it's unexpected, you know.
Heather Hester
00:46:32Yes.
Heather Hester
00:46:33I mean, absolutely.
Heather Hester
00:46:35So just kind of.
Heather Hester
00:46:36I think the more we put that out there, like, we just keep putting it out there.
Heather Hester
00:46:41That is okay.
David Devore
00:46:42Exactly.
David Devore
00:46:43But the parents that are listening to this show right now, to this podcast, are obviously taking a step in wanting to bridge that.
David Devore
00:46:50So there's already that.
David Devore
00:46:52That desire to make this.
David Devore
00:46:54To make this smooth.
David Devore
00:46:55To make this smooth, you know, for their child and for themselves, but it will never be perfect.
David Devore
00:47:02And it's just part of the ebb and flow of the relationship, but it can just continue.
David Devore
00:47:06It's like keeping that conversation alive and open is what it's all about.
David Devore
00:47:10And it will evolve.
Heather Hester
00:47:12Right?
Heather Hester
00:47:13Right.
Heather Hester
00:47:13Exactly.
Heather Hester
00:47:14Exactly.
Heather Hester
00:47:16So I would love if you could.
Heather Hester
00:47:20I have my final question for you that I love to ask, which is.
Heather Hester
00:47:25And you have your choice, or you can do both.
Heather Hester
00:47:28Words of wisdom for a young person coming out or words of wisdom for a parent of a child coming out.
David Devore
00:47:38I actually think for both that some sense of preparation, if it's possible, is absolutely important for a child.
David Devore
00:47:48I would say find a support group, find other allies, other friends who are queer, look for support online and become more comfortable with who you are and begin to accept yourself in that journey.
David Devore
00:48:03Because the more that you can embody your truth and be who you are, and the moment that you come out to your parents, the easier it will be for them when they see that you're happy and that you're feeling comfortable with who you are, the easier it will be for them and the easier it will be for you in terms of.
David Devore
00:48:20But that you don't have to do it right away.
David Devore
00:48:23You don't have to feel rushed into it to take your time.
David Devore
00:48:26And especially if you're in a place where you feel like you could be rejected or kicked out of the house, you have to think about your safety first.
David Devore
00:48:32That might meet.
David Devore
00:48:33That you come out a little bit later, like when you're in college.
David Devore
00:48:36But taking the time to prepare and recognizing that coming out is for you, it's not for your parents, it's for you to be your authentic self so there isn't a duality of gay me and straight me where you don't have to play this game of being two different people.
David Devore
00:48:52And to the parents, I would say in the same way that if you have an opportunity to be prepared to learn as much as you can about queer life and queer people and meet some queer friends maybe and ask questions and become involved in that community and to make sure that you're not leading with your fear as your child comes out, that you're not leading with your own homophobia and that you have those things in check if you have time to process that.
David Devore
00:49:21Because the more of a clean slate that you can bring for your child in terms of this open how can I support you?
David Devore
00:49:27And asking questions that will not create a defensiveness in your child, but just to gain more information and to learn more about their experience and the difficulties of their experience, the better.
David Devore
00:49:39But that being said, you know, we arrive at it where we arrive at it, and it doesn't work out that perfectly all the Time.
David Devore
00:49:47Right.
David Devore
00:49:48And there will always be mistakes.
David Devore
00:49:49Things happen.
David Devore
00:49:50We're human beings.
David Devore
00:49:51But as long as we can keep the conversation open and it doesn't get shut down, that's the most important part.
David Devore
00:49:57Because as a 55 year old man, the relationship that I developed with my parents, like I said, was beyond, I think, what it would have been if I'd been straight.
David Devore
00:50:05Because it really created this sense of vulnerability in sharing with both my mom and dad and was a real testament to their love for me.
David Devore
00:50:15Even being Catholic, even being homophobic or having very limited experience, that their capacity to grow and evolve because of their love for me was absolutely profound.
Heather Hester
00:50:31I think that's a beautiful place to end.
David Devore
00:50:33Yeah.
David Devore
00:50:34Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:50:34Thank you so much for being here.
David Devore
00:50:37Absolutely.
David Devore
00:50:38It was wonderful to talk to you.
David Devore
00:50:39I was really looking forward to it.
David Devore
00:50:40I think this work is incredibly important because like I said in the beginning, parents can't underestimate how incredibly powerful that moment is when the child comes out and when you can be in an open space of love and support.
David Devore
00:50:56You're really helping your child on their journey by having that sense of love and support.
David Devore
00:51:02It's everything.
David Devore
00:51:03It's so important.
Heather Hester
00:51:05It really is.
Heather Hester
00:51:06I mean, it really is.
Heather Hester
00:51:09So thank you and thank you for reiterating that.
Heather Hester
00:51:12Just, I'm so grateful for you and grateful for your work as well.
David Devore
00:51:16Thank you.
Heather Hester
00:51:16And I will list all of your information in my show notes so people can find you online, so people can find you on TikTok.
David Devore
00:51:25TikTok's my main.
David Devore
00:51:26My main place right now.
Heather Hester
00:51:29Go to TikTok.
David Devore
00:51:31Yeah.
David Devore
00:51:31I'm coach Devorah on TikTok.
David Devore
00:51:32So you can just find me there and come to my lives and we'll talk.
David Devore
00:51:36I'd love to hear about any of the things that are happening out there for you parents.
David Devore
00:51:41You're more than welcome in my lives.
Heather Hester
00:51:45And you do lives daily.
David Devore
00:51:47Correct.
Heather Hester
00:51:48Perfect.
David Devore
00:51:48Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:51:49Wonderful.
David Devore
00:51:49Yeah.
Heather Hester
00:51:50All right.
Heather Hester
00:51:51Thank you.
David Devore
00:51:51Thank you, Heather.
David Devore
00:51:52It's good to meet you.
Heather Hester
00:51:54You as well.
Heather Hester
00:51:57Thanks so much for joining me today.
Heather Hester
00:52:00If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so, so grateful.
Heather Hester
00:52:04For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.
Heather Hester
00:52:20Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.
Heather Hester
00:52:25And remember to just breathe, breathe.
Heather Hester
00:52:29Until next time.
