Unity in an Imperfect Church

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.174
Thank you.
00:00:34.338 --> 00:00:36.920
Hello and welcome to another edition of Inside Out.
00:00:37.341 --> 00:00:39.743
I'm Jim Bennett and I'm here as always with Ian Wilkes.
00:00:39.783 --> 00:00:40.304
Hello, Ian.
00:00:40.344 --> 00:00:41.886
Hello there.
00:00:42.707 --> 00:00:43.368
How are you, sir?
00:00:43.387 --> 00:00:45.070
I'm doing fine.
00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:46.091
How are you?
00:00:46.771 --> 00:00:47.671
I'm doing well.
00:00:47.893 --> 00:00:54.280
So the way we're recording these is that we're recording a whole bunch of them before we actually release.
00:00:55.020 --> 00:01:03.429
And I think by the time this is released, the heat around this subject will probably have dissipated somewhat.
00:01:04.162 --> 00:01:17.819
But I wanted to talk today about Elder Kevin Hamilton's speech at BYU, where he talked about, well, let me just put it in Elder Hamilton's words here.
00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:19.783
I'm going to play this here quickly.
00:01:20.043 --> 00:01:28.734
As I visit with members across the church, I sometimes hear things like, I don't support the church's policy on, and then you fill in the blank.
00:01:29.736 --> 00:01:33.381
Or I don't agree with the way the church does this or that.
00:01:35.010 --> 00:01:37.534
Could I suggest an alternative approach?
00:01:39.058 --> 00:01:46.313
Substitute the word Savior or Lord or Jesus Christ in place of the church.
00:01:47.396 --> 00:01:51.805
As in, I don't support the Savior's policy on you fill in the blank.
00:01:52.706 --> 00:01:55.972
Or I don't agree with the way Jesus Christ does this or that.
00:01:56.481 --> 00:01:59.186
What do you think of that alternative approach, Ian?
00:01:59.686 --> 00:02:01.209
I'm disturbed by it.
00:02:01.609 --> 00:02:02.731
It makes me feel uncomfortable.
00:02:02.751 --> 00:02:06.677
I think intellectually, spiritually, I think it's dangerous.
00:02:07.399 --> 00:02:24.786
If we substitute Jesus Christ for the church, we're saying or agreeing that everything that the church does and says and thinks of doctrine and policy is the same, exactly the same that Jesus Christ would do.
00:02:25.633 --> 00:02:26.716
and would agree with.
00:02:27.216 --> 00:02:29.118
And I'm very, very uncomfortable with that.
00:02:29.179 --> 00:02:37.151
We're saying that everything the church does, the leaders do, is perfect because we say Jesus Christ is perfect.
00:02:38.032 --> 00:02:43.842
The Savior says that, you know, be ye for perfect, even as I am and even as the Father is in heaven.
00:02:43.882 --> 00:03:01.298
And I think when you have a perfect being, and there's a whole conversation about whether or not Christ was perfect or not, but if we assume that Christ was perfect, By substituting the word Jesus or Jesus Christ for the church, we're saying that we accept that the church is perfect.
00:03:02.218 --> 00:03:12.752
And if we understand what perfection means and the standard and the principle of perfection, the church, frankly, falls well short of perfection.
00:03:12.793 --> 00:03:14.275
The leaders are not perfect.
00:03:14.335 --> 00:03:16.016
The leaders themselves have said they're not perfect.
00:03:16.777 --> 00:03:17.758
The church isn't perfect.
00:03:17.778 --> 00:03:18.881
The church has made mistakes.
00:03:20.098 --> 00:03:21.319
Leaders have made mistakes.
00:03:21.781 --> 00:03:30.294
And if we're saying that everything that the church does and says is perfect, as Christ is perfect, then I think that's extremely dangerous.
00:03:30.335 --> 00:03:33.661
And you're getting into thought control, groupthink.
00:03:33.841 --> 00:03:42.335
It's very dangerous where people think and feel, are told to think and feel, and told to respond in a certain way and accept things in a certain way.
00:03:42.936 --> 00:03:43.897
And you're getting into...
00:03:44.545 --> 00:04:12.401
communism you're getting into the thought control you're getting into um a form of brainwashing really where you have to think and feel and a certain way and substitute told to substitute certain words and your freedom of thinking and expression and thought is somewhat diminished so i think it's a very dangerous i heard the talk i listened to it i made some notes and it made me feel very uncomfortable and i think it's um i think it's quite a reckless talk frankly
00:04:12.930 --> 00:04:26.788
Well, you know, as you're talking about it that way and putting it and framing it in terms of groupthink, you're absolutely right that it feeds into what I have said repeatedly is the biggest problem of the church, which is this idea of infallibility.
00:04:26.829 --> 00:04:30.233
If the church is the savior, I worship the savior.
00:04:30.293 --> 00:04:31.836
Am I supposed to worship the church?
00:04:32.857 --> 00:04:33.978
I don't worship the church.
00:04:34.119 --> 00:04:35.901
Am I supposed to worship Russell Nelson?
00:04:36.081 --> 00:04:37.564
I don't worship Russell Nelson.
00:04:37.963 --> 00:04:38.964
I sustain him.
00:04:38.985 --> 00:04:41.249
I recognize his authority.
00:04:41.309 --> 00:04:43.548
But I don't worship him.
00:04:43.567 --> 00:04:46.471
And there should be a very clear line.
00:04:46.512 --> 00:04:55.526
One of the biggest criticisms that I encountered when I was a missionary and that I've encountered since is you Mormons worship Joseph Smith.
00:04:55.567 --> 00:04:59.793
And we always say, no, no, no, no, we don't worship Joseph Smith.
00:05:00.714 --> 00:05:09.509
Well, in saying that the Savior is the church and they're interchangeable, well, if Joseph Smith is the first president of the church, then yes, we worship Joseph Smith.
00:05:10.177 --> 00:05:14.242
we worship Russell Nelson because Russell Nelson is the head of the church on earth.
00:05:14.523 --> 00:05:15.584
It's dangerous.
00:05:15.925 --> 00:05:18.247
It's frustrating, but it's interesting.
00:05:18.288 --> 00:05:26.298
I've got another clip here because he talks about, he recognizes the infallibility issue and he frames it this way.
00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:36.209
Occasionally, I have heard people say that those who serve in the first presidency and the quorum of the 12 are only human and are capable of making mistakes.
00:05:37.569 --> 00:05:48.963
While it is true that we are all fallible human beings, the safety net for all of us is the council system that we use at every level of the church.
00:05:50.144 --> 00:05:54.269
Decisions in the Lord's church always require a unanimous council.
00:05:55.331 --> 00:06:02.940
When the first presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve speak in unity, they speak on behalf of the Lord Jesus Christ.
00:06:04.403 --> 00:06:05.223
So there you go.
00:06:05.244 --> 00:06:07.065
So he gets around it.
00:06:07.329 --> 00:06:39.060
by saying, okay, yeah, one person is fallible, but when they speak in unity, when all 15 of them get together, they represent the Lord Jesus Christ, which in and of itself, that's kind of a weasel wording of saying something, because I believe they represent the Lord Jesus Christ even when they're not in unity, but representing someone and being as perfect and exactly like someone are two very different things.
00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:43.745
And he's conflating both of them there and hoping that nobody notices.
00:06:44.646 --> 00:06:46.166
But it's really interesting to me.
00:06:46.187 --> 00:06:56.459
I wanna take this in a different direction because I think a lot of people have talked about some of the problematic issues of this talk.
00:06:57.439 --> 00:07:20.077
But I wanna frame it a little bit differently because I've got a little more insight Well, that sounds very arrogant, but I've got some info here on a subject that I think a lot of church members don't know a whole lot about, and that's the unity or lack thereof among the members of the Q15.
00:07:20.218 --> 00:07:29.490
You talked about the fact that Elder Bednar at one point said, oh yeah, we have robust discussions behind the scenes, but when we come out publicly, we're united.
00:07:29.509 --> 00:07:48.028
And I think it's very interesting, to dive deeper into that and discover that the unity that we think is there may not be as placid and pleasant as we are led to believe.
00:07:48.728 --> 00:07:55.540
And the example I wanna use here, do you remember the 2010 talk, I'm sure you do, that Boyd K.
00:07:55.579 --> 00:08:04.689
Packer gave, it was called Cleansing the Inner Vessel, and it attracted a whole lot of attention because In the course of the talk, Boyd K.
00:08:04.709 --> 00:08:10.637
Packer insisted that homosexuality is not, you are not born homosexual.
00:08:11.098 --> 00:08:15.105
And he asked the question, why would Heavenly Father do that to anyone?
00:08:15.125 --> 00:08:23.458
And it generated so much controversy that the printed version took that sentence out.
00:08:24.033 --> 00:08:37.854
and changed the idea that you are born with tendencies to the idea that you are born with temptations and softened the language and brought it back down into something that wasn't nearly as heated.
00:08:37.894 --> 00:08:41.860
You recall that talk, I'm assuming.
00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:43.042
I do, yes.
00:08:43.442 --> 00:08:53.577
Well, many people, they focused on the fact that that wording was changed and it was, but there was another segment of the talk that was changed.
00:08:54.625 --> 00:08:57.269
And that didn't get nearly as much attention.
00:08:58.171 --> 00:09:02.677
Early on in the talk, Elder Packer mentioned the proclamation on the family.
00:09:02.697 --> 00:09:15.999
And the proclamation on the family has become a flashpoint as people use it as a cudgel against anybody who wants to see greater inclusion of LGBTQ people in the church.
00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:27.307
I think the proclamation on the family, actually what it actually says is open to far more inclusive interpretations than we apply to it, but I think that's a separate podcast.
00:09:28.169 --> 00:09:52.486
But anyway, there's a lot of heated discussion among members of the church and online and in social media about whether or not the proclamation on the family is scripture or is revelation, whether it's just a statement of policy or that can change or whether it is scripture and revelation that ought to be included in the standard works.
00:09:53.649 --> 00:10:00.096
And I've had conversations with people who say, well, it's not only scripture, it's super scripture.
00:10:00.236 --> 00:10:07.807
How many other verses of scripture do you have framed and posted in chapels or in people's homes?
00:10:08.006 --> 00:10:11.792
The way people frame and post the proclamation of the family in their homes.
00:10:13.634 --> 00:10:19.120
And it is clearly the centerpiece of a lot of people's faith.
00:10:20.222 --> 00:10:28.553
So why hasn't it been canonized and put into the Doctrine and Covenants as official declaration three?
00:10:28.835 --> 00:10:36.085
We canonized the revelation on the priesthood, we canonized the manifesto, why don't we canonize this?
00:10:36.105 --> 00:10:40.250
And Elder Packer's talk gives us some insight into that.
00:10:40.350 --> 00:10:54.578
So I'm going to play this segment And I want to get your reaction to it, because this audio is what he actually said, but it is not what is in the written transcript of the talk.
00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:55.581
Here it is.
00:10:56.861 --> 00:11:12.240
Fifteen years ago, with the world in turmoil, the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the family a proclamation to the world, the fifth proclamation in the history of the Church.
00:11:13.666 --> 00:11:24.124
It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and would do well that the members of the church to read and follow.
00:11:25.346 --> 00:11:30.434
It qualifies according to the definition as a revelation and it would do well.
00:11:30.455 --> 00:11:33.419
I mean, his exact wording there.
00:11:34.081 --> 00:11:36.586
Did you notice anything strange about that?
00:11:37.666 --> 00:11:44.374
That it is, well, what you said, he qualifies as revelation that the members would do well to read and to follow that.
00:11:44.794 --> 00:11:46.277
Except for he doesn't say that.
00:11:47.238 --> 00:11:48.399
He said, listen again.
00:11:48.438 --> 00:11:49.299
And
00:11:50.381 --> 00:11:54.486
it would do well that the members of the church to read and follow.
00:11:55.447 --> 00:11:59.873
And it would do well that the members of the church to read and follow.
00:12:01.014 --> 00:12:09.275
That isn't a sentence that makes grammatical sense, which doesn't make any sense if he's reading it off a teleprompter.
00:12:10.638 --> 00:12:16.403
And I had a conversation with Greg Prince, who is a Mormon scholar.
00:12:16.464 --> 00:12:17.184
He wrote David O.
00:12:17.205 --> 00:12:19.246
McKay and the Rise of Rotter Mormonism.
00:12:20.008 --> 00:12:22.390
And he pointed out and said, that's not Boyd Packer.
00:12:22.490 --> 00:12:26.655
Boyd Packer would rehearse his talks for hours on end.
00:12:26.875 --> 00:12:34.443
And for him to get up there and fumble through something, you hear an uh in the middle, he stutters and stammers and stops.
00:12:35.225 --> 00:12:43.105
And then he, issues a sentence that doesn't make any grammatical sense, the indication is that wasn't on the teleprompter.
00:12:43.186 --> 00:12:45.008
He's making that up on the fly.
00:12:46.409 --> 00:12:49.753
And that comes out of the printed version.
00:12:49.833 --> 00:12:56.400
Now, when Elder Packer gave that talk, he was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.
00:12:57.302 --> 00:13:04.289
Who has the authority to tell the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles to change his talk?
00:13:04.898 --> 00:13:08.844
After the fact, in a very embarrassing public way.
00:13:08.884 --> 00:13:12.850
And the only answer to that is the first presidency.
00:13:13.711 --> 00:13:26.812
And what's so very clear here is that Elder Packer wants to canonize the proclamation on the family, wants the membership to think it's a revelation, and the first presidency wasn't willing to do that.
00:13:27.745 --> 00:13:49.240
And I believe firmly that the reason the proclamation on the family has not been canonized is not part of our scriptures officially, is because there is division among the highest council of the church and the Quorum of the Twelve, the Q15, as to whether or not it qualifies as revelation.
00:13:50.182 --> 00:14:01.381
And we're not going to see it canonized unless people on one side or the other, uh, either change their mind or die.
00:14:01.423 --> 00:14:03.267
Is that how you see this?
00:14:03.807 --> 00:14:07.297
Or, or do you see that there's a, am I being too conspiratorial?
00:14:07.317 --> 00:14:08.700
No, no, no.
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:22.759
I think, I think the, uh, I think behind the scenes, I think, um, There are heated arguments, and there are entrenched positions, political, doctrinal, policy, and this is one, and this is very, very controversial.
00:14:23.659 --> 00:14:29.666
I've learned working with the general authorities, including Elder Oaks, that Elder Oaks was the junior companion to Elder Packer.
00:14:29.686 --> 00:14:30.626
I don't know if you're aware of that.
00:14:31.167 --> 00:14:33.448
Elder Packer trained Elder Oaks personally.
00:14:33.469 --> 00:14:39.294
I remember having this conversation with Elder Cook, or having something along this conversation with Elder Cook.
00:14:39.754 --> 00:14:43.251
Every time you say Elder Cook, I think of Quentin Cook in the corn with a 12.
00:14:43.292 --> 00:14:44.355
You're talking about a 70.
00:14:44.375 --> 00:14:44.395
I
00:14:45.118 --> 00:14:45.538
am, yes.
00:14:46.020 --> 00:14:47.043
Yeah, I gave you the name.
00:14:47.164 --> 00:14:48.590
Is it Dean Cook?
00:14:48.629 --> 00:14:49.051
I think it is.
00:14:49.371 --> 00:14:50.756
Yeah, Dean Cook.
00:14:50.777 --> 00:14:51.779
You've got a great name.
00:14:51.941 --> 00:14:55.674
I just don't want anybody to jump in here and think you're talking about member of the
00:14:56.176 --> 00:14:57.899
no no no this is a member of the 70.
00:14:58.038 --> 00:15:22.313
uh i think his first name is dean uh he was presented as the junior companion to elder oaks and we had an interesting conversation about that about how that works and so um i think elder oaks privately has said that this uh his position that this proclamation, which I'm looking at right now, should be part of the Doctrine and Covenants, you know, like the chains with the blacks and the priesthoods, you know, should be canonized.
00:15:22.615 --> 00:15:30.606
If you think about all of the significance behind leading up to this, this is a major proclamation to the world, right?
00:15:30.647 --> 00:15:34.754
This is, if anything should be canonized, it should be this.
00:15:35.875 --> 00:15:37.337
And there's a reason why it isn't.
00:15:37.597 --> 00:15:47.768
And it's because of what you're saying is that there's this deep disagreement amongst the leaders, Even more now since the reaction of this proclamation.
00:15:47.807 --> 00:15:52.554
And that's what's keeping it back from going into the scriptures.
00:15:53.235 --> 00:15:57.022
The other thing as well, if you look at the proclamation, because the words are very important here.
00:15:57.062 --> 00:16:00.346
It says right from the outset, you know, marriage is ordained of God.
00:16:00.366 --> 00:16:07.177
But in the second paragraph, all human beings, male and female, are created in the image of God.
00:16:07.918 --> 00:16:09.078
And there's an interesting line here.
00:16:09.259 --> 00:16:10.701
Each is a beloved spirit.
00:16:11.298 --> 00:16:26.458
each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents and as such each as a divine nature and destiny and it goes on to say gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.
00:16:26.980 --> 00:16:30.085
So, you know, this has been on our walls for a couple of decades.
00:16:31.066 --> 00:16:36.674
And it's clear, the position is very clear that spiritually you are either male or female.
00:16:36.695 --> 00:17:47.601
And the conversations that I've had as a bishop of people who come to me who've had same-sex attraction is, you know, listen to the talk that Elder Packer gave that you're referring to, is, you know, these people these individuals feel attracted to the same sex and does that mean that their spirit is a male spirit inside a female body and i had no one i had no answer to that when i tried to get answer to that there was no answers at any level in respect to that and i think what happens is that the what's happening is that the church when someone is born physically biologically a male but inside feels female or or even a male attracted to another male they associate that with with psychological processes going on in the body chemical processes going in the body they feel differently they think differently and the question they've asked is you know is their spirit male or female and here it's very clear you know a spirit is either male or female And the question is, you know, Elder Packer, I think, is referring to why would a male spirit be born into a female body?
00:17:48.522 --> 00:17:51.547
And there's been conversations that I've been involved in around that.
00:17:51.666 --> 00:17:56.974
And I've had no answers to give and I've sought answers and not received any answers.
00:17:57.015 --> 00:18:07.390
So I think there's a lot of confusion at the leadership level in respect to the science, you know, versus the policy and the spiritual aspects.
00:18:07.521 --> 00:18:57.238
uh perspective here science is saying you know this it's proven science uh in this area but it conflicts with with what these statements are saying if you look at the uh you know the the specific wording here and i think that's the reason why it's not got into the doctrine it's not been canonized because there is deep disagreement there is concern about the reaction from the um the secular uh community in respect to science and and um you know the human evolution uh in in this respect and i can't see them ever agreeing uh on this you'll have different in transpositions i can't ever see this going into the adopting covenants it should have and i believe um and i know that Elder Oaks thinks this should have gone in, Elder Packer thinks it should have gone in.
00:18:57.818 --> 00:18:59.381
But it's very controversial.
00:18:59.401 --> 00:19:08.234
It's very, there's so many questions with proclamation to the world from a scientific perspective and from a psychological and human evolutionary perspective.
00:19:08.776 --> 00:19:12.301
And it would generate, you know, have it canonized.
00:19:12.823 --> 00:19:17.108
It's a very big step, Jim, as you know, having this placed into the scripture.
00:19:17.634 --> 00:19:49.529
uh which is a permanent uh fixture of the church doctrine would present significant problems for the church and and perhaps legal issues as well legal challenges so it and i think that's the reason why it's not going in a whole series of reasons you know uh intellectually you know spiritually scientifically etc and and i think you've got different uh opinions and positions which are quite entrenched entrenched And I think there's deep disagreement on this within the leaders of the church, for sure.
00:19:49.789 --> 00:19:51.152
I think that's exactly right.
00:19:52.273 --> 00:19:59.523
And so then the parlor game becomes trying to figure out, okay, well, who is it that's on one side and who is it that's on the other side?
00:19:59.544 --> 00:20:11.902
I had always assumed, for whatever reason, I mean, you and I served our missions with Matt Holland, who's the son of Jeffrey Holland, and Matt Holland himself is now a general authority.
00:20:12.673 --> 00:20:23.566
And I always thought, okay, when Elder Holland gets to be president of the church, we're gonna see significant changes here because he's the man with so much compassion.
00:20:23.605 --> 00:20:33.656
Everybody loves his conference talks because he's so inclusive and he's the one who's talked about things like depression and mental health that other general authorities aren't willing to do.
00:20:34.298 --> 00:20:41.365
Clearly, he's a guy that sees how problematic some of the things in the family proclamation are.
00:20:41.986 --> 00:20:44.328
And then he gave the musket fire talk.
00:20:45.550 --> 00:20:49.817
And I went, oh my gosh, no, he's not that guy at all.
00:20:50.478 --> 00:20:55.263
So trying to figure that out, trying to read the tea leaves is very difficult.
00:20:56.025 --> 00:21:00.090
I do know from family conversations, the history of David O.
00:21:00.111 --> 00:21:01.192
McKay and Heber J.
00:21:01.252 --> 00:21:06.859
Grant, both of whom are my great grandfathers, they talk about behind the scenes discussions.
00:21:07.580 --> 00:21:16.827
You know, if Elder Bednar characterizes them as robust, He's using a euphemism because they would talk about the word you used heated.
00:21:16.867 --> 00:21:18.369
They were heated conversations.
00:21:18.410 --> 00:21:20.353
They were often angry conversations.
00:21:20.732 --> 00:21:35.771
They were conversations that would result in longstanding grudges and members of the 12 that do not like each other and have not liked each other for decades and are stuck with each other.
00:21:36.031 --> 00:21:37.433
You know, there's nothing you can do.
00:21:37.857 --> 00:21:42.963
if there's somebody in the 12 that drives you crazy, you have to work with this person for the rest of your life.
00:21:44.224 --> 00:21:48.068
And so it doesn't surprise me because that's the way human beings are.
00:21:48.108 --> 00:21:58.299
And if you put 12 people in a fishbowl and lock them up there for the rest of their lives, the odds of all of them just getting along swimmingly are not great.
00:21:59.621 --> 00:22:31.804
I had one, I'm going to be very vague here because I don't want to reveal my source, but I have a source that, deals with apostles quite frequently and says that on one occasion this person was in a room with at least two other apostles and these two apostles were so angry at each other that they would turn to my source and say, you tell elder so-and-so, who was standing five feet away, that he's got wrong about this, this, this, this.
00:22:31.943 --> 00:22:39.833
And then the other elder would say, oh yeah, well you, again to my source and not to the other apostle, tell elder so-and-so that he's full of crap.
00:22:42.395 --> 00:22:47.182
This person said they were so petty, it was like junior high school.
00:22:48.584 --> 00:22:55.683
And I've told that story to other people who know my source, And they say, oh, I can't believe that.
00:22:55.763 --> 00:22:57.907
They can't be that petty.
00:22:59.289 --> 00:23:05.159
And the reality is, you know, you served a mission and you were stuck with somebody for 24 hours a day.
00:23:05.179 --> 00:23:08.444
And when they got on your nerves, they got on your nerves.
00:23:09.506 --> 00:23:11.589
And sometimes you let that out.
00:23:11.849 --> 00:23:13.972
And the same is true for these apostles.
00:23:14.574 --> 00:23:16.798
But we create this false belief.
00:23:17.698 --> 00:23:20.362
veneer of perfection around them.
00:23:20.402 --> 00:23:30.174
And we have talks like Elder Hamilton's talk that say, well, when they're all united, then they're perfect, and the church is perfect, and the church is the same as the Savior.
00:23:30.195 --> 00:23:35.383
And we are doubling down on all the wrong things.
00:23:36.243 --> 00:23:52.056
You know, as we see people leaving the church, as we see the rising generation, 70%, walk away from the church before their 18th birthday, The Brethren are getting justifiably nervous and they're trying to reverse it.
00:23:52.076 --> 00:23:58.567
And this talk by Elder Hamilton is an attempt to do that.
00:23:58.688 --> 00:24:02.474
And I think it makes the problem far, far worse.
00:24:03.135 --> 00:24:04.898
No, I agree.
00:24:05.941 --> 00:24:06.422
I think what...
00:24:06.753 --> 00:24:11.180
frustrates me and puzzles me is that who are these people listening to, right?
00:24:11.840 --> 00:24:33.893
If you've got this closed circle of people that think a certain way and they've got these different positions and some similar positions and they're not getting any critical, constructive input and feedback as to, you know, a more effective way of teaching truths and being honest and open that, you know, we are human, we do disagree, we even argue.
00:24:34.882 --> 00:24:36.782
And sometimes we fall out.
00:24:37.506 --> 00:24:41.368
People like me and you, and I'm sure most other people, would be fine with that, right?
00:24:42.069 --> 00:24:42.810
We're human.
00:24:43.090 --> 00:24:44.172
We have different opinions.
00:24:44.592 --> 00:24:45.333
We disagree.
00:24:45.393 --> 00:24:46.634
Sometimes we disagree strongly.
00:24:46.673 --> 00:24:48.134
Sometimes we argue.
00:24:48.174 --> 00:24:56.883
Sometimes we fight, not physically, hopefully, but although I've heard some stories between two apostles, I might get time to come under that.
00:24:57.864 --> 00:24:57.983
You've
00:24:58.564 --> 00:25:01.326
heard stories of apostles getting in physical fights?
00:25:01.886 --> 00:25:07.471
Yeah, pushing the other person out of the way for a photograph or something.
00:25:07.471 --> 00:25:17.648
So, and just two side points, by the way, just while we're talking about what we've heard along the lines of disunity.
00:25:17.669 --> 00:25:22.416
I work closely with an Area Authority 70 that I knew very well.
00:25:22.457 --> 00:25:30.108
When he was a state president, I was one of his counselors, a great guy.
00:25:31.105 --> 00:25:38.241
He said that the higher you go, often the more disunity amongst the brethren that you see.
00:25:38.261 --> 00:25:39.063
And I agree with that.
00:25:39.124 --> 00:25:41.709
You know, the rank and file members won't see this, right?
00:25:42.210 --> 00:25:45.877
Elder Hamilton is speaking to different strategic audiences.
00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:52.571
I think he's speaking, without being too cynical, speaking to the brethren to say that he's in line and he's trying to toe the line.
00:25:53.051 --> 00:26:00.526
But he's also, I think, primarily speaking of rank and file and keeping them in line and putting across the message that we're all unified.
00:26:00.746 --> 00:26:04.272
Once we all come together, we all agree.
00:26:04.313 --> 00:26:05.755
It isn't like that.
00:26:05.875 --> 00:26:12.489
And this leader, who I worked with, who I respect, has alluded to that very clearly when I was serving with him.
00:26:12.528 --> 00:26:28.509
In fact, the other counsellor that I worked very closely with, who's left the church, him and I, he shared some things with leaders of, with general authorities that he'd had, and he was shocked at the disagreements that were happening at that level.
00:26:28.971 --> 00:26:34.838
The other experience as well is that when I was a bishop, I had a, one time I had an American counsellor.
00:26:34.878 --> 00:26:47.626
He was a elder counsellor uh missionary couple in our ward uh when i was a bishop a great man he was a counselor very experienced he actually trained me to be a a bishop.
00:26:47.666 --> 00:26:55.238
He'd been a bishop before in the United States, and I used him to train me essentially to be a more effective bishop.
00:26:55.357 --> 00:26:58.020
He had somebody that he knew very well.
00:26:58.040 --> 00:27:09.257
I think, well, I won't share too much information, somebody that he knew very, very well, a relative actually, who worked directly in the church headquarters for the apostles.
00:27:10.018 --> 00:27:13.980
And this person was leaving their job.
00:27:14.020 --> 00:27:15.542
They couldn't stand it anymore.
00:27:15.583 --> 00:27:20.307
They were fed up with the arguments and the disagreements between the apostles and the general authorities.
00:27:20.366 --> 00:27:29.734
It was very political, a lot of backbiting, a lot of snide remarks, gossiping, making horrible comments about apostles.
00:27:30.316 --> 00:27:31.477
It was very toxic.
00:27:31.497 --> 00:27:32.277
I think that's the word.
00:27:32.798 --> 00:27:39.483
And this person essentially had handed their notice in and was unwilling to work in that kind of environment.
00:27:39.983 --> 00:27:49.394
described an environment of disunity and anger and, you know, again, a lot of gossiping and backbiting and sniping remarks.
00:27:50.294 --> 00:27:54.719
And that was going on across a number of general authorities and apostles.
00:27:55.179 --> 00:28:06.250
The source was extremely reliable because this person that I knew knew this person extremely well, who worked directly for the church in a senior administrative position in Salt Lake.
00:28:07.050 --> 00:28:16.809
I was actually quite shocked to hear that as a Serving bishop and unquestioning bishop, man, I was quite shocked to hear that that was even going on.
00:28:17.009 --> 00:28:18.512
And I said, is that really happening?
00:28:18.532 --> 00:28:19.034
He went, yeah.
00:28:19.855 --> 00:28:22.680
And, you know, this count says these people are human.
00:28:22.700 --> 00:28:25.484
They, you know, they get angry, they fall out.
00:28:25.585 --> 00:28:26.546
And I'm OK with that.
00:28:26.807 --> 00:28:33.438
And what I'm not OK with is getting up and saying that, you know, everything is seemingly normal.
00:28:33.634 --> 00:28:40.502
going well and we have a system that is perfect and we all get lined up behind it.
00:28:40.563 --> 00:28:45.869
Yeah, we might have different opinions, but there's a lot more anger, a lot more disunity.
00:28:45.890 --> 00:28:46.550
You know, we're human.
00:28:46.671 --> 00:28:47.352
We have feelings.
00:28:47.451 --> 00:28:48.614
You know, humans are all grudges.
00:28:49.375 --> 00:28:50.076
We get angry.
00:28:50.096 --> 00:28:51.557
We say things that we mean.
00:28:51.597 --> 00:28:52.719
We say things that we don't mean.
00:28:52.759 --> 00:28:53.380
We hurt people.
00:28:53.780 --> 00:28:54.541
Some people forgive.
00:28:54.582 --> 00:28:55.182
Some people don't.
00:28:55.742 --> 00:29:05.614
And I think just being honest and open about the human element of these leaders and the fallibility of these people.
00:29:06.095 --> 00:29:16.806
I think that if they, and I was going back to what I was saying earlier, who the heck is advising these individuals to put out these talks like Elder Hamilton's done?
00:29:16.826 --> 00:29:25.796
Is there not anyone that actually, like you or I or anyone else is saying, look, guys, this is not the way to go.
00:29:26.455 --> 00:29:27.798
We've gone down this path.
00:29:28.354 --> 00:29:57.299
to present ourselves as unified and we write on this and write on that and if you're not in that frame of thinking or you don't think like that then then you're not of the law you're not of the kingdom and you you need to repent and change and get back into the boat get back into the fold why can't they just be open and honest about the issues and about being human and being infallible and they make mistakes, but they wrestle with God in terms of the questions and they try to figure out that it's human.
00:29:57.820 --> 00:29:59.422
I would have so much more respect.
00:29:59.741 --> 00:30:26.613
I think a lot of people would react and respond like me, naturally, that they would have so much respect and understanding and more inclined to follow instead of following under certain rules and conditions where they're saying that what we say is essentially Jesus Christ, what we do what we say, what we write, you know, as a church, replace that with the word Jesus.
00:30:26.653 --> 00:31:06.374
And the third thing I struggled with, Jim, is that you can't accept Jesus without fully accepting Jesus and being saved and receiving salvation through jesus without following you know the prophets uh with exactness you know you can't have one without the other uh you're either with jesus and those it's like an us and them right you're either with us all completely you're either all in you know uh lion and sinker totally every word every doctrine every policy without question And if you're not, if you're slightly out one iota, then you're not with God, you're not with Christ, and your salvation's at risk.
00:31:07.075 --> 00:31:08.375
It's extreme.
00:31:08.635 --> 00:31:15.702
And in a modern world of progressive, pragmatic thinking that we live in today, it's like going back into the 17th century.
00:31:15.722 --> 00:31:16.703
It's just odd.
00:31:16.743 --> 00:31:18.965
And I don't know who's advising these people.
00:31:19.026 --> 00:31:22.529
Why can't they get somebody in to say, guys, it's not working.
00:31:23.371 --> 00:31:24.230
This is not working.
00:31:24.692 --> 00:31:25.271
Try this.
00:31:25.972 --> 00:31:26.973
I think there's just...
00:31:27.137 --> 00:31:31.023
afraid of upsetting that status quo, right?
00:31:31.704 --> 00:31:31.965
So,
00:31:32.266 --> 00:31:33.468
yeah, I think you're right.
00:31:33.788 --> 00:31:39.037
But I think there are also scriptural problems that they see.
00:31:39.057 --> 00:31:51.817
I think the most misquoted scripture in the church, and I think we've talked about this, is in the first section of the Doctrine and Covenants, where it says, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
00:31:52.993 --> 00:31:58.461
And people say that as, okay, well, that scripture backs up what Elder Hamilton is saying.
00:31:59.482 --> 00:32:04.108
Because whether it's by the Lord's voice or by the voice of a servant, it's the same.
00:32:04.189 --> 00:32:05.431
So the church is Jesus.
00:32:06.491 --> 00:32:12.681
Except if you read that verse in context, it's saying precisely the opposite.
00:32:13.342 --> 00:32:18.008
The whole first section of the Doctrine and Covenants talks about servants in their weakness.
00:32:18.848 --> 00:32:21.952
It talks about that if they err, it may be made known.
00:32:22.625 --> 00:32:35.463
It talks about all of these things and it says, look, it doesn't matter though because what I have spoken, I have spoken and it shall all be fulfilled whether I have spoken it by my own voice or by the voice of my servants.
00:32:35.523 --> 00:32:36.305
It is the same.
00:32:36.325 --> 00:32:43.253
In other words, everything that the servants, that God says through his servants will be fulfilled.
00:32:43.294 --> 00:32:51.526
That is very different from everything one of God's servants says is exactly what God says.
00:32:52.226 --> 00:32:53.928
Those are two very different things.
00:32:54.568 --> 00:32:57.051
And a clear reading of that scripture makes that clear.
00:32:57.472 --> 00:33:00.056
But we focus now on the one part of it.
00:33:00.076 --> 00:33:03.339
The other one, though, we're talking a lot today about unity.
00:33:04.382 --> 00:33:11.069
And there's Doctrine and Covenants section 38 verse 37 that says, if ye are not one, ye are not mine.
00:33:11.109 --> 00:33:18.219
How would you reconcile that scripture with the kind of disunity you're talking about?
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:19.901
Yeah, it's a great question.
00:33:20.577 --> 00:33:22.050
Yeah, we know that scripture very well.
00:33:22.112 --> 00:33:23.664
We use that a lot on our missions, didn't we?
00:33:25.218 --> 00:33:27.740
companionship unifiers
00:33:28.181 --> 00:34:27.447
yes absolutely companions companion inventory used to call it unifiers etc be one etc etc uh you know be one with christ and so the elder bed now i think it's held a bed now about you know we have these robust conversations about when when the when the prophet speaks and we we all line up and and and toe the line i think publicly you know they have to be seen as as um as one right as being unified but privately it truthfully and factually they are not unified and it's quite hypocritic and um disingenuous to suggest that they are at one with christ and they're unified because the reality is the truth is that they're not but they're afraid to say that uh because again anything that they say if you look at the essays right there's one thing researching something before the essays came out right and getting different sources and you know, this, that, and it might be reliable, et cetera.
00:34:27.507 --> 00:34:35.286
It's quite another one the church actually comes out and writes it in an essay or in an article.
00:34:35.927 --> 00:34:39.836
It's an admission, it's confirmation of something that you already knew you thought.
00:34:40.177 --> 00:34:44.047
So if they come out and say, look, we're not unified on some things.
00:34:44.106 --> 00:34:45.652
We do disagree, we argue, et cetera.
00:34:46.675 --> 00:34:47.597
We're not always unified.
00:34:47.637 --> 00:34:53.273
And at the end, when it comes down to making a decision, we're still not unified because we can't reconcile our positions.
00:34:53.996 --> 00:34:57.065
That would send a very dangerous message or a very clear message.
00:34:57.793 --> 00:34:58.434
dangerous for them.
00:34:59.054 --> 00:35:05.041
Clearness is that the brethren are infallible, but they do make mistakes, and they can't be seen, Jim, to be men.
00:35:05.061 --> 00:35:08.003
I mean, the question is, when is a prophet not a prophet, right?
00:35:08.503 --> 00:35:10.045
When is an apostle not an apostle?
00:35:10.146 --> 00:35:11.286
When is he speaking for the Lord?
00:35:11.347 --> 00:35:11.987
When is he not?
00:35:13.108 --> 00:35:14.030
There's confusion over that.
00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:15.331
The church hasn't addressed that.
00:35:16.311 --> 00:35:23.197
But to suggest that they're unified internally when we know that they're not is misleading.
00:35:23.257 --> 00:35:24.159
It's disingenuous.
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.380
It's frankly dishonest.
00:35:27.074 --> 00:35:40.264
But the cost to admit that they're not unified is far greater than keeping you and I guessing and other members guessing that, hey, look, they're not the human, but in the end, the unified and the unified privately.
00:35:40.737 --> 00:36:04.898
the the reality is is that is that certainly ab i also find it very interesting that this talk was given at byu i think byu's motto is one of the unofficial mottos is that you know the glory of god is intelligence right there's a talk actually um a research for this right given by cecil Samuelson, given in, he's a presidency of the first 70, given in November 13th, 2001.
00:36:04.918 --> 00:36:06.679
He was president of BYU too, wasn't he?
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:07.599
President of BYU.
00:36:07.659 --> 00:36:10.342
And he says here, I'm grateful to be at BYU.
00:36:10.402 --> 00:36:14.686
He said, great admiration, respect for those who really understand the mission of BYU, et cetera.
00:36:15.427 --> 00:36:26.697
And he said, you know, although all the members of the church are motivated to learn, gain knowledge, increase in wisdom and intelligence, those who have the privilege of being associated with this remarkable institution, et cetera.
00:36:26.916 --> 00:36:30.039
He talks about the importance and value of education.
00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:39.192
And he says here, one of the key ways that we learn is not only here at BYU, but throughout life, is by asking questions.
00:36:40.052 --> 00:36:43.958
I'm sure that your parents can attest to the fact that you've been asking questions, some of them difficult to answer.
00:36:43.998 --> 00:36:51.469
And then he quotes Sir John Lubbock, who was an English banker and a prolific writer born in 1834 in England.
00:36:51.889 --> 00:36:54.592
And Elder Lubbock says this.
00:36:54.632 --> 00:36:56.494
He says, there are three great questions.
00:36:56.514 --> 00:36:58.398
There are three questions.
00:36:59.041 --> 00:37:02.996
Great questions, which in life we have over and over again to answer.
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:04.844
Is it right or wrong?
00:37:04.885 --> 00:37:06.451
Is it true or false?
00:37:07.052 --> 00:37:08.438
Is it beautiful or ugly?
00:37:10.594 --> 00:37:11.815
Samuelson quotes him.
00:37:11.835 --> 00:37:25.387
It's a remarkable talk on the value of education, the value of intelligence, the value of the importance of asking questions, which, if I remember correctly, isn't that what Joseph Smith did when he went to the Grove of Trees?
00:37:25.407 --> 00:37:26.427
He had questions, right?
00:37:26.987 --> 00:37:31.411
How do you learn something if you don't ask?
00:37:32.393 --> 00:37:41.422
You know, being told what to ask, being told what to think in order to keep the rank and file, you know, in a certain group thinking, a certain mindset, I think is an extremely dangerous.
00:37:42.184 --> 00:38:08.009
If you question things, if you question the unity of the brethren, if you question a policy or a proclamation of the world, and you're trying to understand what is very confusing at times, certainly to me, about whether a spirit is born male or female, And you're questioning your divinity or your spirituality based on Elder Packer's talk.
00:38:08.068 --> 00:38:14.054
And you feel a certain way, I think a certain way towards a member of the same sex.
00:38:14.655 --> 00:38:18.318
And then you read that comment, Elder Packer, why would God do this?
00:38:18.438 --> 00:38:20.380
In other words, God doesn't make a mistake.
00:38:21.440 --> 00:38:24.003
When you're born, you're born with a male or female spirit.
00:38:24.182 --> 00:38:28.246
And when you're born and you're biologically a male, you're a male, right?
00:38:28.626 --> 00:38:29.867
You're assigned the male at birth.
00:38:29.967 --> 00:38:43.822
biologically male, doesn't matter how you think or feel otherwise internally, but your biological condition, male or female, means or implies that your spirit is male.
00:38:44.141 --> 00:38:47.264
So male body, male spirit, right?
00:38:47.284 --> 00:39:00.851
And so many questions around whether someone is spiritually male or spiritually female, which is confusing for many, including for me and not clear, the church has not clarified its position.
00:39:01.414 --> 00:39:10.583
But to ask questions, the wrong questions, and to question the unity and not to act in faith.
00:39:10.623 --> 00:39:11.945
He talks about blind faith.
00:39:12.005 --> 00:39:14.869
He says, it's not blind faith, it's just faith, end quote.
00:39:15.329 --> 00:39:17.132
They were his words.
00:39:17.672 --> 00:39:18.333
I listened to the talk.
00:39:18.954 --> 00:39:25.925
Well, it is blind faith if you're not asking questions, if you're not learning and you're not trying to figure out, well, why is it like that?
00:39:26.105 --> 00:39:28.628
Why are the brethren say this or think this?
00:39:29.889 --> 00:39:31.572
If we can't ask questions, then we...
00:39:32.865 --> 00:40:16.610
you know we're becoming robots and we're getting to that group think and so it's a very dangerous reckless disingenuous and a very controlling talk and designed to you know to keep uh rank and file members i think uh cynical here i think but keep rank and file members from uh know wandering off into areas which the church doesn't approve or starts to question things and questions the you know infallibility or fallibility of the brethren because they you know when the brethren speak uh in unity then it's the lord but again i repeat internally uh you know from your sources um and i know from my people sources that i've worked with that is simply not the case
00:40:16.630 --> 00:40:19.213
it isn't and
00:40:19.233 --> 00:40:19.293
and
00:40:19.425 --> 00:40:33.260
I keep getting frustrated by the fact that the Brethren continue to think they have a choice as to whether or not they can confront all of this.
00:40:34.340 --> 00:40:41.306
They continue to think that a talk like Elder Hamilton's will solve the problem, and it won't.
00:40:41.648 --> 00:40:45.070
The problem isn't going to go away until we confront it head on.
00:40:45.090 --> 00:41:01.313
I mean, I believe, for instance, that you can reconcile D&C 3837, if you're not one, you're not mine, with the reality of the sort of disunity that all of us have.
00:41:02.034 --> 00:41:09.585
And the idea is, okay, what unity is the Lord talking about?
00:41:10.686 --> 00:41:17.697
I mean, does it mean, for instance, if you and I don't have the same brand of toothpaste, are we not united?
00:41:18.690 --> 00:41:33.228
You know, I mean, that's the most ridiculous thing I can think of, but there, there's so many aspects of our lives where we, we are not only diverse and have different opinions and different tastes and different interests, but we celebrate that.
00:41:33.268 --> 00:41:34.088
It's wonderful.
00:41:34.829 --> 00:41:40.818
You know, I, my, my family is, they're all sports nuts, except for me.
00:41:41.442 --> 00:41:49.751
All of my children watch football, and my wife watches football, and they love it, and I can't think of anything more boring than a football game.
00:41:50.411 --> 00:41:52.614
Does that mean I'm not united with my family?
00:41:52.634 --> 00:41:58.000
Or does it mean I can celebrate the fact that they're different, and I'm different, and it's great?
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:07.570
The unity I think that matters is the unity of kindness and love and faith in Christ as our Savior.
00:42:08.514 --> 00:42:11.637
And I think we need to be united in that as a church.
00:42:12.298 --> 00:42:21.590
And we can have that unity and still be wildly different people with wildly different opinions on just about every subject.
00:42:22.070 --> 00:42:28.938
If that weren't the case, then God really can't be perfect because he made a really, really weird world.
00:42:29.539 --> 00:42:32.141
He's expecting us all to be identical to each other.
00:42:32.181 --> 00:42:38.349
Then he created exactly the wrong circumstance for that to happen.
00:42:38.978 --> 00:42:45.724
And so you have to look at how the world works, how God works with each of us.
00:42:47.387 --> 00:42:55.757
In order to be like Christ, he's not asking us to grow a beard and to wear sandals and to live exactly the same way he did.
00:42:55.797 --> 00:42:58.119
He's asking us to be like Christ.
00:42:58.820 --> 00:43:04.126
Christ is asking us to be like him in the only ways that really matter.
00:43:04.898 --> 00:43:09.865
in the kind of kindness and compassion and empathy and love.
00:43:09.885 --> 00:43:12.469
As I have loved you, love one another.
00:43:12.510 --> 00:43:14.873
That's what Christ wants from us.
00:43:15.014 --> 00:43:23.766
He does not necessarily want us all to have the same opinion about where the lost tribes of Israel are or anything else.
00:43:24.288 --> 00:43:25.650
The rest of it doesn't matter.
00:43:25.690 --> 00:43:27.112
I've got a thought.
00:43:27.152 --> 00:43:28.054
You continue.
00:43:28.375 --> 00:43:29.056
Go ahead.
00:43:29.576 --> 00:43:32.882
So, you know, if you look at the...
00:43:34.177 --> 00:44:13.364
aspect of human nature right and and how we communicate what we communicate etc when we're speaking our truth based on our understanding of facts and we're honest and we say look we're not perfect we've read something we've written something we've said something this is our thoughts and feelings and it's done sincerity and kindness and with good intent notwithstanding that it might not be you know a perfect understanding i think we we when we write stuff i say we're safe to be able to do that and take that approach and we we shouldn't be too worried about criticism because we've said it in truth and criticism is a good thing.
00:44:13.485 --> 00:44:20.036
Criticism is a, you know, to improve something, to get good feedback, good constructive criticism, to improve our understanding.
00:44:20.056 --> 00:44:21.940
Our knowledge is a good thing.
00:44:21.980 --> 00:44:27.148
It's a healthy thing and it should be encouraged and recognized and even rewarded.
00:44:27.188 --> 00:44:36.161
In contrast, when you get a leaders telling you to think and feel a certain way.
00:44:36.202 --> 00:44:43.911
And they write and script things along very certain positions.
00:44:44.913 --> 00:44:49.617
And you get the lawyers involved, because I think the proclamation of the world is written partly by lawyers, by the way.
00:44:49.757 --> 00:45:04.617
But when you get this very prescriptive, very narrow thinking, which is partly based on lack of education and knowledge, and you write it carefully, or so you think you've written it carefully, and then expect people to fall in line.
00:45:04.697 --> 00:45:06.059
I think that becomes extremely dangerous.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:07.019
Let me give an example here.
00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:11.244
If you look at the Proclamation to the World, and remember, each word is important.
00:45:11.503 --> 00:45:17.909
Whenever we say something or read something, especially when it's almost canonized like this, we've got to be very careful what we write.
00:45:18.349 --> 00:45:46.652
I've heard several sources, actually, that one of the words that they wanted to pull out of the Proclamation to the World was that in the second paragraph where it says that gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal mortal and eternal identity and purpose the word individual is problematic because as individuals we are uniquely different we were made like that we think like that we don't buy the same toothpaste.
00:45:46.672 --> 00:45:48.918
We don't support the same soccer team, right?
00:45:48.998 --> 00:45:50.702
A football team.
00:45:51.103 --> 00:45:52.206
You know, we're individuals.
00:45:52.427 --> 00:45:53.068
That's who we are.
00:45:53.108 --> 00:45:54.130
That's how we were made.
00:45:54.271 --> 00:45:58.041
And that's the, that was the intent of God that we're all unique.
00:45:58.101 --> 00:46:05.934
And yeah, we've got, similar characteristics, sometimes less so.
00:46:06.574 --> 00:46:09.257
Physical characteristics were different in many respects.
00:46:09.737 --> 00:46:24.510
But in terms of those universal principles like love and service and kindness, I think when we live like that and feel like that and we're doing things to build the people and to be kind and loving and forgiving, then we are united.
00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:25.251
We are one.
00:46:25.291 --> 00:46:26.253
We are one with Christ.
00:46:26.693 --> 00:46:29.034
And that's what they mean.
00:46:29.074 --> 00:47:02.722
But when you're talking about um like they're talking about here and it's very clear the proclamation of the world which i did put on my wall very proudly by the way he was a strong advocate for this without really looking into it and without really understanding uh and there's still aspects of it i do not understand i struggle to articulate because i don't understand certain aspects of it but when you're looking at the tightness of the language You know, and the keywords, I think there's some, there was a lot of deliberate wording in there, but I think they now looking back, I think they would write it differently.
00:47:02.742 --> 00:47:04.505
They certainly would remove the word individual.
00:47:04.525 --> 00:47:08.528
And so they can't, they can't agree on it.
00:47:08.568 --> 00:47:09.630
They're never
00:47:09.670 --> 00:47:10.610
going to.
00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:21.782
Even came out because there were transgender people who were embracing the language of the proclamation because it was gender as part of my eternal identity.
00:47:22.561 --> 00:47:27.088
but it makes no distinction between a mortal gender and an eternal gender.
00:47:27.730 --> 00:47:36.824
And transgender people were saying, yes, my gender is a part of my eternal identity and my eternal gender is at odds with my mortal gender.
00:47:37.726 --> 00:47:43.735
And President Oaks came out and said, no, no, no, the intent here was the gender that is assigned to you at birth.
00:47:45.077 --> 00:47:56.514
And it's always interesting to me when I get into it with people on the proclamation of the family, when I say, The proclamation on the family is weaponized for things that it doesn't actually say.
00:47:56.554 --> 00:48:05.688
It's things that people infer from it, and certainly the intent behind it is what people are using.
00:48:06.168 --> 00:48:14.481
But for instance, the proclamation on the family never once, not only does it not condemn gay marriage, it never mentions gay marriage.
00:48:14.942 --> 00:48:16.965
No, no, no, no, it says marriage is ordained of God.
00:48:17.005 --> 00:48:18.606
Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
00:48:19.268 --> 00:48:20.110
Okay, great.
00:48:21.474 --> 00:48:25.679
Is marriage between a man and a woman the only thing in the world ordained of God?
00:48:25.759 --> 00:48:27.902
I can tell you all kinds of things that are ordained of God.
00:48:27.942 --> 00:48:30.846
Why can't same-sex marriage be ordained of God?
00:48:31.646 --> 00:48:33.047
Well, you know what they mean.
00:48:33.068 --> 00:48:35.911
Well, yes, I do, but I also know what the words say.
00:48:35.952 --> 00:48:38.614
And the words don't say that.
00:48:39.175 --> 00:48:50.110
The closest they get to it is there's one phrase where it talks about the powers of procreation should only be used between a husband and wife who are legally and lawfully wed.
00:48:51.170 --> 00:49:05.753
But the thing is, even that language is open to a more, by using the euphemism powers of procreation, because you know what they meant was, you can't have sex unless you're a married couple and you're a man and a woman.
00:49:06.494 --> 00:49:13.286
The words they use, powers of procreation, last time I checked, two men can't have a baby.
00:49:13.793 --> 00:49:15.275
Two women can't have a baby.
00:49:15.335 --> 00:49:19.061
They don't have the power of procreation in a same-sex relationship.
00:49:19.842 --> 00:49:25.570
And so I can read that sentence to be saying, you should only have children within wedlock.
00:49:26.972 --> 00:49:29.976
And I point that out and they go, oh, you're just being blah, blah.
00:49:29.996 --> 00:49:34.362
It's like, okay, I know what the intent is, but I also know what the words say.
00:49:34.402 --> 00:49:57.090
And so I am grateful for the fact because I am, I, I, And I want to be very careful here because I think I get myself into trouble if I start saying the church needs to do this, the church has to do that, the church this, that, and the other.
00:49:57.110 --> 00:49:59.675
And so I couch it this way.
00:49:59.715 --> 00:50:15.208
I say I am eager to receive more light and knowledge on this subject because what we're doing now isn't working and isn't helpful and is harming a great deal of of many of the Lord's most precious children.
00:50:16.590 --> 00:50:32.346
And that light and knowledge, if it comes and allows for recognition in the church of same-sex relationships, the family proclamation does not have to be changed to make that happen.
00:50:33.907 --> 00:50:36.130
It can be done within that existing language.
00:50:37.030 --> 00:51:03.586
And I like to think that that's the Lord's hand in it Because he's able to sort of work around the weakness of his servants by creating a document to which we have become attached and allow for ways for that document to expand, to include with kindness and acceptance so many people that that document is now being used to exclude.
00:51:04.809 --> 00:51:05.289
And so...
00:51:05.697 --> 00:51:33.336
know the other interesting thing on this and this this may be a little bit of a tangent but you know elder packer and that thing that we talked about he mentioned five proclamations in the church uh there are now six because the church in 2020 issued the restoration proclamation to which we accepted it with the hosanna shout and i would bet you 90 of the church have no idea what's in it, have completely forgotten about it.
00:51:33.577 --> 00:51:35.360
It's came and went and it's nowhere.
00:51:36.242 --> 00:51:42.030
But we were not willing to put this proclamation into the Doctrine and Covenants.
00:51:42.831 --> 00:51:47.619
And when I was thinking about this, I was thinking, okay, well, what about these other five proclamations?
00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.143
The other four before the proclamation on the family.
00:51:52.106 --> 00:51:57.052
And there's a reason we don't talk about them because they're kind of awful, or at least one of them is.
00:51:57.092 --> 00:51:59.056
There was one in 1865.
00:52:00.737 --> 00:52:06.771
It says, Hearken, O ye Latter-day Saints, and all inhabitants of the earth who wish to be saints to whom this writing shall come.
00:52:07.632 --> 00:52:10.398
Are you familiar with this proclamation, the third proclamation?
00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:11.420
No, I don't.
00:52:12.503 --> 00:52:15.489
I'm just going to read you some select segments of it.
00:52:16.833 --> 00:52:18.177
This is the beginning.
00:52:18.197 --> 00:52:33.585
Happening lately, while on a preaching trip to Cache Valley to pick up a book, which was lying on a table in the house which we were stopping, we were surprised to find that it was the book bearing the title on the outside of Joseph Smith the Prophet.
00:52:33.985 --> 00:52:57.574
And on the title page, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet and its Progeniture by Many Generations by Lucy Smith, Mother of the Prophet, published by Orson Pratt, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, are surprised that finding a copy of this work may be accounted for by the fact of our having advertised some time ago that the book was incorrect and that it should be gathered up and destroyed so that no copies should be left.
00:52:58.036 --> 00:53:03.985
And from this, we had supposed that not a single copy could be found at any of the houses of the saints.
00:53:04.766 --> 00:53:09.653
And so this entire proclamation is about making sure that this book is gathered up and burned.
00:53:09.693 --> 00:53:13.719
This is the way the book came into being.
00:53:13.739 --> 00:53:17.385
It was smuggled, juggled, and foisted into existence as a book.
00:53:18.146 --> 00:53:22.072
The church was so concerned about this book that they wanted to all cop.
00:53:22.112 --> 00:53:26.978
And so this whole thing, and this is, it's very, very lengthy, but that's the whole thing.
00:53:27.018 --> 00:53:28.501
The whole thing is this book is terrible.
00:53:28.561 --> 00:53:29.503
It's the worst book ever.
00:53:29.664 --> 00:53:30.164
It stinks.
00:53:30.784 --> 00:53:31.545
Please burn it.
00:53:31.706 --> 00:53:33.168
Please make sure nobody reads it.
00:53:34.250 --> 00:53:51.603
And I think what better example of the fact that these men are wildly fallible and that we have long burning a book doesn't make the knowledge in the book or the ideas in the book go away.
00:53:51.643 --> 00:54:00.114
Maybe it did in 1865, because if you were to burn all these copies of this book, then no one will be able to read it.
00:54:00.574 --> 00:54:04.840
But we're still acting in 2023 as if you can do that.
00:54:05.561 --> 00:54:09.527
As if, you know, you could say, oh, well, you know, don't look at this material.
00:54:09.586 --> 00:54:10.588
Don't pay attention to this.
00:54:10.648 --> 00:54:11.949
Don't ask these questions.
00:54:12.710 --> 00:54:13.773
Make sure, you know...
00:54:15.041 --> 00:54:27.518
The church still is operating as if it's 1865 and books we don't like and questions we don't like and ideas we don't like can be gathered up and burned and can disappear.
00:54:28.699 --> 00:54:43.418
And it's just so telling to me that as we battle over proclamations and we battle over the idea of fallibility, infallibility, that the questions and the problems haven't changed.
00:54:44.001 --> 00:54:45.224
in 150 years.
00:54:46.164 --> 00:54:50.152
And the solutions, unfortunately, haven't changed in 150 years.
00:54:50.652 --> 00:54:52.375
And they desperately need to.
00:54:53.135 --> 00:54:54.938
I think the leaders are
00:54:55.139 --> 00:55:10.264
on the hook for deliberately, at times, and at times not, diluting a lot of the sacred, important values and teachings and doctrines, universal doctrines at the church.
00:55:12.097 --> 00:55:14.842
subscribes to at its very, very core.
00:55:15.764 --> 00:55:16.646
And just think about that.
00:55:17.206 --> 00:55:21.675
You know, Christ, Hamilton talks about organized religion.
00:55:21.715 --> 00:55:25.300
Well, Christ's church wasn't organized the way the church is today.
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:25.882
It's a fact.
00:55:27.043 --> 00:55:27.686
It just isn't.
00:55:28.418 --> 00:55:35.449
you know, the processes, the procedures, the policies, the buildings, the structure, you know, everything, almost every aspect.
00:55:35.530 --> 00:55:36.831
Christ didn't have that.
00:55:37.532 --> 00:55:38.934
He was a church without walls.
00:55:39.036 --> 00:55:40.898
He taught in the fields, in the homes, right?
00:55:40.938 --> 00:55:47.789
Yes, he set apostles and prophets apart, and evangelists, evangelicals.
00:55:47.809 --> 00:55:48.811
Evangelists.
00:55:49.251 --> 00:55:50.313
Evangelists, there we go.
00:55:51.416 --> 00:55:51.737
Thank you.
00:55:51.916 --> 00:56:15.402
And so, know it didn't have the structure of the organization that the church is today it's very different compared to when christ was on the earth it wasn't organized back then like it is now and and for good reason um you know and i think we get i think elder packer said to elder but president banks and president banks shared this with you and i at the reunion in 2016.
00:56:15.643 --> 00:56:19.193
again correct me if i'm wrong here please correct this.
00:56:19.715 --> 00:56:26.612
I think some of the last words of the Packer said before he passed away was that they've gone too far on the programs.
00:56:27.713 --> 00:56:58.257
far on the procedures it's too organized too organized organizing people to do and to behave a certain way where's that spirit of individuality the spirit of uh you know behaving freely and openly and spontaneously and following the spirit you know when i was on the mission with that present done there you had to fill in all these boxes every night you know you say your prayers and this, this, and this, and this, and have you read this, and read that, and have you had this, etc.
00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:04.945
It was a checkbox every night, and every week you had to phone in and send them in, and you had a checkbox to see you did everything.
00:57:05.585 --> 00:57:07.867
President Banks came along and said, we're not going to do that anymore.
00:57:08.228 --> 00:57:10.369
He said, we're going to do something that's quite unique.
00:57:10.409 --> 00:57:12.411
We're going to follow the Spirit, he said.
00:57:13.233 --> 00:57:18.639
We're going to kneel, we're going to pray, you're going to take time, and if you're knocking on doors through the day, it's not getting anywhere.
00:57:19.179 --> 00:57:28.659
Go somewhere, pray, just take a moment, feel the spirit and just be, forget the boxes, just be yourself and feel the spirit.
00:57:28.739 --> 00:57:33.264
And whatever the spirit tells you to do and where to go, just do that.
00:57:33.364 --> 00:57:35.246
And it was like a night and day.
00:57:35.447 --> 00:57:37.588
It was a breath of fresh air.
00:57:37.628 --> 00:57:39.130
It was extraordinary.
00:57:39.170 --> 00:57:53.842
That actually, that one thing, that's one of the things that transformed my mission from a very ritualistic and robotic experience to a much more meaningful human experience.
00:57:54.806 --> 00:58:00.603
And I think sadly that some of the leaders of the church are going so down the prescriptive route.
00:58:01.666 --> 00:58:06.159
Think this, do this, this means this, interpret it this way, et cetera, et cetera.
00:58:06.278 --> 00:58:07.400
If you're not this, you're that.
00:58:08.543 --> 00:58:10.085
It's this pigeonhole, right?
00:58:10.465 --> 00:58:13.630
And this categorization, et cetera, and the covenant path, et cetera.
00:58:13.731 --> 00:58:14.974
You can't deviate from it.
00:58:15.534 --> 00:58:20.923
And you can't think outside of this thinking position, this process.
00:58:21.724 --> 00:58:25.010
And so That's where it becomes extremely dangerous.
00:58:25.369 --> 00:58:41.579
If they took a different approach and a more universal, accepting and inclusive approach, it will be far more successful on every metric, financial, retention, baptisms.
00:58:42.442 --> 00:58:46.570
And why is someone not saying this to them is beyond me.
00:58:47.650 --> 00:59:25.353
maybe they are maybe they are saying it and maybe that's where the disunity comes from maybe you do have people in there that are saying these things i suspect you are who is saying it like this saying saying it with strength and fervor and with with commitment and passion uh but because it goes against the the traditional orthodox thinking um that's what's causing the disunity you know talking about this right now i think that's part of the problem you've got um a number of camps there, different people that think in different ways, and that's causing disunity.
00:59:26.114 --> 00:59:27.476
And I think it will get worse than better.
00:59:28.677 --> 00:59:36.690
I think there will be essays, although I remember talking to Greg Prince where he said, he said, I think these things will change and the essays will begin with the sentence.
00:59:37.471 --> 00:59:46.864
Of course, as we've always taught, the goal is to continue to pretend that things don't change when they do change.
00:59:47.521 --> 00:59:53.030
But I'm going to let yours be the last word there.
00:59:53.110 --> 00:59:57.980
We're running up on the end of time, but I think this has been another productive discussion.
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:05.893
And if you're listening to this, wherever you get your podcasts, be sure to like and subscribe and join us next time on Inside Out.
01:00:05.932 --> 01:00:07.054
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:00:08.097 --> 01:00:08.478
Thank you, Jim.
01:00:08.518 --> 01:00:11.101
Thank you.
01:00:22.146 --> 01:00:22.590
Yeah.