EP 3:33 Open Relationships 101 with Aidan

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Like forever.
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But in this context, yeah, we do go and have sex with people who we have never met and don't know at all.
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And there have been experiences where, and I'll say I don't know enough about using, but where I'm like, oh, was that person fully sober or maybe not?
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Yeah.
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Um, and I think what has helped me.
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Chemsex.
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Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Glad you're here.
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Thank you for being here.
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Thank you for listening.
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Thank you for the increased downloads.
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Um, we are every single month we we increase.
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So I'm I'm taking that.
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I'm not I'm not looking at percentages, I'm just looking at the amount of downloads we get.
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Um, and I do say, I will say, our audience is increasing in Europe and the and in the UK.
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We've gone from probably I think 30% up to up to 40% now, 50% in the US.
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So we're happy to have you all around the world listening.
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And don't forget to like, subscribe, share, all the good stuff.
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Leave us a review if you can.
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Um that gets the algorithm to put this podcast in where it needs to be.
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Also, I will say I've been getting a lot of clients from AI, from ChatGPT and Claude saying this is a podcast you might want to listen to.
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So I'm really happy about thank you, AI, if you're listening.
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Um, I really appreciate that.
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Because we are the only podcast dedicated specifically to chemsex um in terms of chemsex recovery.
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There is a chemsex stories podcast that we had on the podcast.
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We can listen to stories from people who are using or or who have used, uh, but this podcast is the one, one of its kind.
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And so I'm glad that AI is noticing that and bringing that to you too.
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So, but I think the more you can get in the algorithm, the better.
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All right, so today we're talking about open relationships.
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Um, if you've been listening to the podcast, uh you you know that I have shared my own um bias about open relationships based on some negative experiences that I've had.
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That bias is softening and softening as I go along.
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And as I study in my my sexologist certificate, I have understanding more about the why and the context of open relationships and the fact that I have been privy to some broken ones.
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I think a broken a relationship, if it's open or not, can be unhealthy, right?
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And so I think that I probably fixed my perspective based on some negative experiences, and then probably I would, I'm sure I have, um probably projected that experience onto anybody who's in an open relationship.
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So we'll talk about that today, maybe, uh, if we get there.
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But um, I've already had a little chat with Aidan and I've looked at your your Instagram page, Aiden, which we'll show in a little bit.
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And I it is helping me quite a bit in understanding the why and considering maybe I, you know, at this point in my life, if I do have ever get a relationship, maybe we'll open it up.
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Maybe not.
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Who knows if it'll happen.
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But Aiden, thank you for being here on the afternoon.
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Of course.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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I am delighted to be here.
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And hello, all listeners, including all the new ones from from across the sea.
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Yeah, yes.
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They're gonna be interested in what you have to say too, because um I think it's more welcome.
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I think it seems to be more welcomed over there, from what I can tell.
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I don't know, as far as more accepted.
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Um, maybe you can weigh on weigh in on that.
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I don't know.
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Um, but can you tell us about you too?
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Of course.
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Um hi everyone.
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My name is Aiden Wharton.
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I am based in New York.
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I'm a sex and relationships writer and educator and columnist, uh, primarily focusing on open relationships.
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That's sort of I found that's my my niche.
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Um previous life, I was a Broadway actor and actor in general.
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It's what I got my training in, which a lot of people don't think there's a huge connect, but you know, going to school for theater and experiencing theater and acting is just a study of emotion and relationships.
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And so I feel like I've really been immersed in this for a very long time.
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Uh, I moved to New York about 10 years ago and really threw myself into the dating scene and dated a lot of people in couples, in trouples, in open relationships, and got to really see what all of this looked like.
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Um, and then my husband and I, we've been together for eight years now.
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And so that, of course, is also a big topic of my writing and my experience and navigating all of these really fascinating challenges and complexities that open relationships can have.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Thank you for that.
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Yeah, and that's I I think in my mind, from somebody who hasn't had a lot of success in a relationship with one person.
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Um, you know, um I'm like, imagine because I did I did try to date once an ethical non-monogamous couple.
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Um they were going to, they were gonna we were gonna date, and then the possibility of me joining in there they had a lot of rules though.
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Like, if we have if we have sex, we all have sex.
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Nobody has sex on their own.
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And you know, this kind of thing, and this is the kind of thing.
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And so I tried that, but it was like discombobulating for me because it was two people with two whole different personalities and two different challenges, and I was like, this is exhausting for me.
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I told you, yeah, it's uh yeah, yeah.
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So I mean, what do you say to that?
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There's some really important, I'd say, basis to cover before we we dive into it.
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Okay.
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First off, is that everybody has and comes to relationships with their own very strong beliefs about relationships, right?
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We grow up watching whatever relationships are around us, whether that is our parents or our caregivers.
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We are immersed in relationship storytelling, it's Disney movies, it's the movies we grow up watching, it is just like the beliefs.
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It's the um, you know, the society sort of places a heightened status to people in relationships.
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It's why we encourage marriage, it's why you get tax benefits when you're married.
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And so there are so many things that influence our beliefs about relationships.
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And all of that comes from, you know, thousands of years of conditioning, hundreds of years of romanticism and storytelling that tells us all of these things about how we are supposed to be in love.
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And so we all have that, and it's all deeply personal.
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And so seeing other types of relationships, whether that is non-monogamy, open relationships, polyamory, monogamy, relationship, anarchy, like there's so many different types of relationships.
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Whenever you see someone in a happy relationship that doesn't look like yours, it causes a pretty strong emotional reaction because it contradicts the things that you believe about safety and love and belonging.
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Okay.
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Which is why the discourse around open relationships is so hot amongst the gays.
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And so I just like to preface with that because in the work that I do, it's either people saying open relationships aren't real.
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They don't exist.
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If you're having sex with other people, that's not real.
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Or people saying, who gives a shit?
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Like everyone's open.
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Why are we talking about it so much?
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But there's nothing in the middle.
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You know, there's no books about it, there's no lesson, there's no school you can go to like you can with every other type of relationship.
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And the problem that arises is that you have all of these people with negative experiences because we don't give these types of relationships the credence and the import to actually look at them and say, what is different from monogamy to open relationships, from open relationships to polyamory?
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What's different with queer atypical relationships?
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What's different with gay open relationships?
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And so we don't look at it, and then this is what happens.
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You have all of these people who are sort of just winging it based on, you know, I learned it from the men that I dated when I moved to New York.
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Even now, they're like, I don't have a credential.
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You can't get an open relationship's credential.
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And so we're all just sort of flying by the seat of our pants.
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And what happens is a lot of people get hurt.
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And a lot of people get stuck in relationships that they don't really know how to move through, whether they're in the primary relationship or the third or the fourth.
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And so hopefully, for you listening, by the end of this, you'll have a little bit more grace, maybe a little bit more open mind on either side of the spectrum you fall on.
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And there's some like concrete tips and ways that you could actually make these relationships better so that experience that you had doesn't keep happening.
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So I want to get back to I want to get back to some things that you said.
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But first, why why an open relationship?
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What you know, what is the what is the value that you're getting from it?
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Yeah.
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So I believe, you know, I'm a I'm a huge proponent of living a very full life.
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When I was younger, my life motto was I want the high highs and the low lows, because who wants a life half-lived, right?
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Okay.
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And I've always just been voracious about living life.
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And whatever clips of me saying this get surfaced, people are like, well, he's just like a hungry slut.
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Yeah.
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And sex is part of it, you know, like, but it's not just sex, it is living a fullness of life in whatever way that means.
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If that's going out and kissing people, if that's hanging out with friends, and it becomes more complicated and intimate than friendship.
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So for me, it's about experience.
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And I want to experience as much life as possible before I die.
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And why would I not want that exact same thing for my partner?
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I can be only exactly who I am.
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It's not that I am not enough for my partner or that he is not enough for me, but we can't be everything.
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I can't be a different height, I can't be a different hairiness level, a muscularity, uh emotional type, you know.
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None of I just can't.
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And we live in a a culture where we are expected for our partners to have everything and offer us everything.
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And I'm like, but they can't just because of who we are.
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So for me, it is about expansion and trusting and communicating with your partner enough to go out, have experiences and and come home.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So this this idea of living life, living life to the fullest, experiencing, experiencing, right.
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Um so so I I I I get that.
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Yeah.
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What are some other reasons that you know of?
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Like what what in your experience, like what would what would somebody say in terms of I want I want this to be obvious?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean a sexual, I'm not gonna say compatibility, but it can definitely alleviate uh sexual imbalances, right?
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So if one partner has a higher libido than the other partner, yeah, and the communication is good, then again, this can be a really nice way for people to alleviate that.
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Um, if there are kinks that one partner is into that the other one is not, long distance is a really common one.
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And a lot of people, when it comes to like big life changes, or they've been together for so long that they've only known each other.
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Like I know a lot of people who got together when they were in their early 20s and decide to open things up after 20, 30 years because they've only been with one partner for their whole lives and they don't want to dispose of their relationship, but they do want to experience other things.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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So some of that I have I have um been exposed to, like, you know, for e even even positions like a top and a bottom are together and the top wants to be topped, but but this bottom's not going to top them.
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I I you know, I know I know a couple like that, or one is really into like uh BDSM and the other isn't.
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I have heard I have come across that too.
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Um so when you when you realize I want to go out, like for you, like I want to experience life to the fullest.
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I want to go and have all these these experiences, what is the communication like?
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What is the conversation like with your partner?
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And what would you say to what would you say to somebody who asking for a friend asking for a friend, this like there there is a so I will say for it is me, but so I try I tried to date um I was about a year, a year and a half ago or something.
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I date a guy totally too young, probably way too young for me.
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I don't know.
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Big age difference.
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But anyway, yeah, we got together within a month, he was talking about all these things he wanted to do.
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Like he wanted to be gangbanged, and he wanted this, and he wanted that, and he wanted all these experiences.
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And so he was like, we, you know, he wanted to be open right away.
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And there was a visceral, like cry, like I like it hurt like a knife in the chest to me to think to think about anyone else touching him.
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Okay.
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I know that's a me issue.
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I know that's a me issue.
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I don't know what that's all about.
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Um, but that's another reason why I think there's a resistance to me about open relationships is what I experience with that.
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But what do you say to somebody who that you know they they're having this reaction of jealousy of why would you want somebody else to touch you and all of those other kind of things like that?
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I would start by asking what your formative memories and experiences are around sex and honestly, possession.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I'd be like, I don't know, if you feel comfortable, like what did you feel underneath the anger and jealousy?
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Uh in I'll give you a moment to talk about it as I something I talk about a lot is that jealousy in our culture is really bad.
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Jealousy is toxic, jealousy is something to avoid.
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And a lot of things that I hear from people are how could you do this?
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I would be so jealous.
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I am inherently not a jealous person.
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It is, I think, part of why I'm I'm good at having these conversations.
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It's good why I'm good at the work that I do.
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I've been cheated on in the past, and I was like, I don't know, I I get like it's never been, it's never been a deal breaker for me.
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I understand the the nuance and everything.
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Right.
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Right.
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And so for me, jealousy is the best teacher that you can have in an open relationship.
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Yeah.
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Because jealousy is a cover for other things.
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It's not, it's not the cause, it is the symptom, right?
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So I would ask when you're feeling this jealousy, when you're thinking about him being touched by other people and that feeling starts to bubble up, is it a fear of abandonment?
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Is it a fear of insecurity?
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Are you feeling not enough?
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Are you feeling untethered in the relationship?
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Do you feel secure?
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Is there something else you need from him?
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Because in a monogamous relationship, usually like everyone gets jealous.
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Period.
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Monogamous couples get jealous, open couples, polycouples.
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But in my experience, what I've found is that open couples have a better and polycouples have a better opportunity to talk about what's underneath it than monogamous couples.
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So what was underneath it?
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Well, I so my I would say the overarching theme for my life has been exclusion.
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Right.
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Like which is huge for gay men.
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Yeah, exclusion always.
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Like I'm never a part of the yeah, I'm never a part of the crowd.
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I'm never part of the cool kids, right?
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I I always it's it's such a self-fulfilling prophecy now.
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So so I have evolved now to the point where I see the exclusion coming up.
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I'm able to observe it, but not like allow it to take over.
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I didn't realize at that when when I was dating that guy, what was really happening was that he was excluding me.
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Okay.
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He he was going to go off and I wasn't chosen.
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Right.
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I was left out.
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Right.
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And so to my system, that's life-threatening.
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And so I I didn't know that's what was happening at the time, but I do now.
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Right.
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Would there have been a possibility for him to include you?
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Or did that to him feel very separate?
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It felt very separate.
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He had very specific.
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Like he wanted two Latinos to spit roast him.
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Like he was very like a checklist.
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Yeah.
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I did get a checklist.
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Right.
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Um, yeah.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.799
And so it just, you know, I wasn't included in that.
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:32.640
I I he could probably let me watch.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:33.359
I don't know.
00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:34.880
I don't we didn't really get there.
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.359
But um it didn't seem that way.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:49.039
But you know, he would I think knowing yourself well enough and knowing that, I'm like, that actually sounds like a really astute observation for you and not a great partner for you, you know.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:50.480
Yes, exactly.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:57.759
But on the flip side, and also like disclaimer, I'm not ever trying to force open relationships on people.
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:09.200
It it is a very common belief that if you are publicly positively talking about open relationships, you are forcing your lifestyle on people on other days.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:18.160
And it and it becomes a very honestly, like a very weird sort of straight argument where it's like, you can do it, just like don't force it on us.
00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:20.559
So to be clear, right?
00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:28.400
I believe that what I want to do on the internet and in my work is help people who are curious about it have better tools.
00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:32.160
If you don't want an open relationship, I don't want you to have one.
00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:32.960
Okay.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:44.799
And so, like in this context, if exclusion is really, really a trigger for you, maybe openness is going to be hard than it would be for somebody who that's less of a trigger.
00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.640
It might not be the best relationship structure for you.
00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:55.359
And that doesn't make you closed-minded, that doesn't make you too insecure, it actually makes you like really self-aware.
00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:56.240
Yeah.
00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:01.759
But imagine maybe the healing that could happen.
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:02.160
Yeah.
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:12.160
If you had a partner who knew this exclusion and was like, I'm going to include you so beautifully and holistically in this.
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:20.319
Like for me, I think open relationships can actually help us heal a lot of this stuff that couldn't happen in monogamy necessarily.
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:21.039
Yeah.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:27.519
You know, because you can have somebody who's like, I want to include you in this in a way that you've never been included before.
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:29.519
Like, let me do this with you.
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:30.400
Yeah.
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:32.160
Now that I could do.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.400
That I that sounds that sounds lovely.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:39.680
Yeah, I want to say too about that is, and maybe this will help a licitor as well.
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:44.079
During that time, I turned it all, I gasolit myself.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:46.400
And I said, I'm not evolved enough.
00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.640
I'm not a good gay, you know, I'm not, I'm not, again, I'm excluded.
00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.160
I'm excluding myself from the gay community because I don't want an open relationship.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:55.680
I turned it all on me.
00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.640
My nervous system was also saying, This man is not good for you.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:02.799
Like you don't trust him.
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:15.119
That is the other part of that, which didn't come to me later because the next guy I met, I felt like, oh, I I actually could do open relationship with him.
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:15.920
Right.
00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:24.559
So to me, it ended up being like part of it was my nervous system saying, This guy is also, this, this is not good for you, this whole situation.
00:21:24.880 --> 00:21:25.440
Right.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:26.000
Right.
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:27.839
And I think we always know, right?
00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:32.319
Like whether or not we listen to our gut feelings, our gut feelings are usually right.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.680
And it in that instance sounds like you conflated a relationship style with the person.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:50.640
And I think that happens a lot too, where people will have one really bad experience with somebody who wanted to be open or was open, and it becomes a referendum on open relationships and not that person.
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:51.920
Yeah.
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.559
You know, it's like a little bit of a a double standard, maybe.
00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:59.759
The example I use often is if a monogamous couple.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.079
Ends their relationship because of cheating, they ended it because someone cheated.
00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:07.440
Like that's the reason.
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:13.279
If an open couple breaks up for any reason, it's usually because, well, they were open.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.920
So that open relationship was destined to fail.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:21.440
But with cheating in a monogamous relationship, I'm like, well, they actually ended because of monogamy.
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:28.799
So that monogamous relationship was destined to fail because somebody had wants, desires, and needs that they didn't feel like they could communicate with their partner.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.559
So then they breached the trust.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:31.839
You know?
00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:32.880
Yeah.
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:33.279
Yeah.
00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:33.680
Yeah.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:34.480
Yeah.
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:35.359
Great.
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:45.519
So I liked what you said earlier about a relationship that contradicts how we view safety, love, and belonging is threatening.
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:52.880
And I had this conversation with a trans woman on the podcast recently where she said the same thing.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:23:02.559
Like her lifestyle, her choices threatened the social cultural norms and what we feel like gender should look like and what people should do.
00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:15.359
And that opened my eyes up to a lot of things for myself as well of oh, this I'm activated by that because it goes against my fundamental beliefs of what I was taught is right or wrong.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:16.160
Yeah.
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:22.880
And I know that that's part of what the bias is to for me around open relationships as well.
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:31.759
Um, so I think it's a good question for anybody listening is what is your what are your feelings about safety, love, and belonging and what should and shouldn't be?
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:33.920
And can you ease up on that a little bit?
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.079
Can you look inside and see, right?
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:36.799
Right.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:41.839
And, you know, our our brains are not evolved for the world that we live in right now.
00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:42.400
Yeah.
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:52.880
You know, um, our our brains are rationally able to comprehend about 150 relationships, period.
00:23:53.519 --> 00:24:01.920
Your sort of like acquaintance circle, I think, hovers around 1,500 people that you can sort of like tangentially uh recognize.
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:02.799
Yeah.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:06.079
Think about how many people you follow on Instagram.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.400
It is probably maybe, I don't know, over 1,500.
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:16.000
Or at least if it's not how many people you follow, it's how many people Instagram feeds you, right?
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:16.559
Sure.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:16.960
Yeah.
00:24:17.119 --> 00:24:25.920
And so we're stuck in this weird place where we grow up with our own sense of morality and we grow up with our own belief systems.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.559
And now we are seeing literally every other type out there.
00:24:30.799 --> 00:24:36.960
And it's gonna make us really mad because also the social media platforms through which we experience audible world want us to be upset.
00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:46.480
They want us to feel lonely, they want us to feel isolated so we stay on the platform, they want us to get angry and anxious so that we comment and that we boost things in the algorithm.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:56.640
And so everything out there is not helping us be kinder and more accepting and more empathetic of people.
00:24:57.039 --> 00:24:59.839
And the way that we build that empathy is by being vulnerable.
00:24:59.920 --> 00:25:04.799
And that can't happen on the internet because the minute you're vulnerable, somebody is gonna tear you down.
00:25:05.359 --> 00:25:11.279
No matter what I post, somebody will comment some sort of hate on it.
00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:17.759
You know, it's like the first rule of the internet is like you can post a video of puppies and somehow it'll turn political.
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:19.039
Yeah.
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:23.200
And so we exist online and it's tearing us apart.
00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:29.759
As and especially this happens with gay culture, the gays, and open relationships.
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:33.279
It's just constant fighting for the sake of fighting.
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:39.920
Who's surprised to continue to hear you say the gays are hating?
00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:41.519
They also get flack for that.
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.759
And are hating open relationships because I feel like the gays love open relationships.
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:48.799
Because every almost every couple I know are open.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:49.759
Right.
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:54.160
I mean, just scroll through, I can read you some comments.
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:59.279
Especially like, so so my husband and I were interviewed by John Dean.
00:25:59.359 --> 00:26:01.440
He did a mini documentary about open relationships.
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:02.000
Okay.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:10.960
And I actually wonder, I had to take myself off of the reel because it was normally when the comments get bad enough, I'll just turn them off when it's my stuff.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.400
But if it's not mine, I can't do that.
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.000
Um and it was fascinating.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:20.559
I think we're at like, yeah, 650 comments.
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:22.799
And I would say 600 of them are bad.
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:23.519
Wow.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:24.079
Interesting.
00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.279
And again, it's these open relationships aren't real.
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.759
In the clip, in particular, it's just me talking.
00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:37.920
So it's like, well, his husband's silence speaks volume, or like this little slut just wants to go get fucked by blah blah blah.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:41.200
And it's also really fascinating the misogyny that is a parent.
00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:48.079
Like all of the takedowns of me being a slut are also, well, ew, he's like such a little bottom, he just wants to go get fucked.
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:48.720
Yeah.
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:57.440
And so it's it's this thing because I again I also think a lot of people do assume that every gay person wants open relationships.
00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:12.480
So if you are a monogamy-focused gay man who is single and or unhappy, or just wanting to sort of be feisty on the internet, like it's easy to just take that out on you.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:18.400
You know, a lot of single gay men who want monogamy are really frustrated because they're like, well, everyone's open.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:19.680
How am I supposed to meet someone?
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:20.240
Yes.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:25.599
Or this person was open and they didn't tell me about it until later.
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:27.440
There's a lot of dishonesty too.
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:32.799
I think open relationships should be disclosed in the opening, opening salvo.
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:33.839
Yeah.
00:27:34.079 --> 00:27:34.559
Yeah.
00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:39.920
Yeah, it seems like oh, so what what you're saying is a comment that I have made before.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:40.400
Yeah.
00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:44.559
Especially when I see it, no, you know, this is I'm just being quite honest with you.
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:50.160
Like somebody like you with the body that you have, because I've scrolled your, I've scrolled your your Instagram.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:53.039
The body that you have, the ass that you have, all this stuff.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.480
I will say, I can't even get a fucking date.
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:57.279
Right?
00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.519
And then this is what I'm what I have said in the past.
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:00.880
I'm not saying I'm saying it now.
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:02.559
I can't even get a fucking date.
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.559
He has a great boyfriend, and he's outdating these men and sleeping with these men.
00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.200
Like, how fucking greedy could he be?
00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:10.240
Totally.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:11.920
And that's that's the comments.
00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:18.799
And and I again, I would, I would sort of be dumb to ignore the the privilege that I have.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:23.759
I am a white, tall, cisgendered, attractive gay man in New York City.
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:24.079
Right.
00:28:24.240 --> 00:28:30.240
It is it is probably as easy for me in this context as it could be.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:31.119
Yeah.
00:28:31.519 --> 00:28:39.839
But I also think that, you know, I was raised with a lot of like discussion about relationships.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:48.400
My high school friends and I sort of explored this open, not even open relationships, but our relationships were so fluid and we would sit around and essentially have like group therapy.
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:56.160
So I've been really primed to think about and communicate about relationships in a way that is really earnest and vulnerable.
00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:08.480
And so while I really do understand that that my experience has a ton of privilege, I also think that the way in which I can look at it can still really be helpful to a lot of people.
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:09.680
At least I hope.
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:10.400
Yeah.
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:10.640
Yeah.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.680
And I like I try to really better myself in a lot of those ways.
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:23.839
And there are a lot of contextual aspects of open relationships that I don't know the answers to, like interracial couples.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:32.480
That is also a really nuanced conversation when it comes to open relationships, chem sex and recovery and sobriety.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:38.079
You know, these are all things that, again, you can't go to school for these things.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.279
So it's a lot of careful, empathetic conversation.
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:48.160
And I just try to be really open to listening and having the conversations that I think will help people.
00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:48.720
Yeah.
00:29:48.880 --> 00:29:49.200
Yeah.
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:49.759
Yeah.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:57.359
Well, what I've come to realize is Dallas, you don't have a date because of the attitude you're displaying right now.
00:29:58.000 --> 00:29:59.119
You know what I mean?
00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:01.680
Nobody, nobody wants to be around that.
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:03.039
Okay.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:05.599
See, but here's the thing.
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:12.720
Uh, like a month ago, the so the sort of like New York gay Instagram community, everyone was making reels about dating.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:14.480
Everyone was upset about dating.
00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:16.240
Everyone was complaining about dating.
00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:16.559
Yeah.
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:22.480
It was like hot white guys complaining about dating, and then other people attacking them for being privileged and dumb.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:27.279
Like it became like this cyclone of the internet.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:42.480
And again, the the thing that I just was thinking about so much is that we are blaming our inability to date or find our partners on other men.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:43.680
Yeah.
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:53.119
But we are not talking about or taking action on like how the apps that we're using are the reasons we hate other gay men.
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:53.599
Yes.
00:30:53.759 --> 00:30:54.400
Yes, thank you.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.200
Exactly.
00:30:55.680 --> 00:31:03.519
I'm sorry, if you are only looking for partners on the apps, you are in service of the app.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:08.400
And the app is filtering how you see these people, and it is making you hate people.
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.920
It is making you behave in a way that you would not if you were in person.
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:12.400
Yes.
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:18.799
The online disinhibition syndrome, because of the anonymity and the delayed response, we are awful to each other.
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:19.359
Uh-huh.
00:31:19.759 --> 00:31:25.119
And on like the swiping apps, you're getting rejected more than the human brain can comprehend.
00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:31.119
On Grindr, you're blocking and ignoring people and you're treating them like you wouldn't in real life.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:32.960
And so that translates to real life.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:34.559
And now we don't know how to talk to each other.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:37.680
We don't go talk to each other in bars because we have the apps.
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:42.960
So, so yes, like I'm not out here being like dating is easy, you guys.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:45.359
Dating is the hardest it has ever been.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:45.759
Yeah.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:48.319
But the villains are not each other.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.480
The villains are the apps.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:51.119
Yeah.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:51.519
Yeah.
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:52.720
And yourself.
00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:55.920
For me, I mean the villa, the villain was me, you know.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:02.000
But I I but I see, even though I was listening to a podcast and it was about Gen Z dating.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:12.960
And at the very end, they said, it's really important to say, like, these Gen Z kids have inherited a world that is so devoid of human connection.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:13.440
Yeah.
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.839
And that is not their fault.
00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:30.720
And it is not your fault, Dallas, or you listener, if you're feeling frustrated, that we have been seduced and addicted by billion-dollar companies whose entire business model is to keep us addicted.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:31.119
Yeah.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:31.599
Yeah.
00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:36.880
And so we, and again, it's like I feel addicted to social media and it's my job.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:37.440
Right.
00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:42.640
You know, with other addictions, you can, in quotes, set them aside.
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.920
I have to open Instagram all the fucking time, and I know it's messing with my brain.
00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:49.759
So it's not your fault.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:57.200
It's not your fault that the companies are succeeding in what they've spent billions of dollars trying to do, which is exploit your insecurity.
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:57.839
Yes.
00:32:58.000 --> 00:32:58.559
Yeah.
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:07.599
Well, we could get off on a whole, we could do a whole other podcast on the apps and how the apps are perpetuating the chemsex scene.
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:13.519
And the the apps aren't going to do anything about chem sex because that's their bread and butter, to be quite honest.
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.599
That's my that's my stand, and I will never stop thinking that.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:25.599
Um, however, I want to get back to, I want to talk about, so if if I'm having a conversation, what does communication in an open relationship look like?
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:38.319
Do do you do you say if this is too personal, don't you know, just make it general, but do you say to your your husband, hey, I've got a date tonight with do you like, here's this picture, or here's what we're going to do?
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:41.920
Do you go in that kind of detail or how what are the parameters here?
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:42.480
Yeah.
00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:47.039
So again, the unhelpful answer is it's unique to everyone, right?
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:47.519
Yeah.
00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:48.079
Yeah.
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:48.559
Yeah.
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:55.839
The more helpful answer is what types of communication will make you feel the most secure?
00:33:56.400 --> 00:34:04.079
For my husband and I, pretty quickly, so so we started having this conversation because we were doing long distance.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:07.119
I was doing a national tour, I was doing Wicked.
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:16.960
And so we would sort of come up like with these instances where he'd be like, hey, I'm gonna go out, or I guess I was on the West Coast.
00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:19.039
I'd be like, I'm gonna go out with the cast.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:19.440
Okay.
00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.639
I don't know what's gonna happen.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.199
I have no plans, but you're gonna be asleep.
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:39.920
What do you feel comfortable with me doing this evening so that I don't have to worry that I'm breaking a rule, worry that there's gray area, so I can know exactly what you feel comfortable with, and I can then be fully present in my experience that I'm having.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:40.400
Wow.
00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:40.880
I love it.
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:43.280
So that was sort of how we started.
00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:48.719
And now, no matter what we do, we talk about it before.
00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:50.079
We ask about it.
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:53.039
We learned very quickly that asking feels very different than telling.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:35:03.119
You know, it feels very different for me to say, hey, Dallas, do you mind if I go see someone this afternoon versus, hey Dallas, I'm gonna go see someone this afternoon.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:07.199
Even if I don't think we've really ever said no.
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:13.199
But just the option is very important to us.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.079
Yeah.
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:14.559
Um.
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:26.320
And so again, we like to communicate about everything beforehand and a bit afterwards, just because we recognize that what feels good one day might not feel good the next day.
00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:35.039
The same person might feel different, depending on my mood and my mental health and my whatever, that might feel different.
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:44.800
And I find that once you set rules, then there's much more to butt up against in either way.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:50.880
You know, you can either be like, oh, well, I can if this is the rule, I there's a little wiggle room, or I don't like that there's this rule.
00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:54.800
Like, so we just try to keep everything as as fluid as possible.
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:58.719
And I know a lot of other people like really strict rules.
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:05.679
Um, I, you know, some people don't want to hear about it, some people don't want to talk about it, they want to set it once and then forget about it.
00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:15.440
In that context, what I would advise people is ask yourself why you don't want to talk about it.
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.679
I know a lot of people do don't ask, don't tell relationships, open relationships.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:21.119
That's what I've seen a lot.
00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:21.440
Yeah.
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:31.679
And I think most often I have seen that don't ask, don't tell relationships are a cover for unsolved issues.
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:36.239
You know, a lot of people say, I I can't hear about that.
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:36.880
Yeah.
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:40.480
And if I was being blunt with them, I would say, then you shouldn't do it.
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:42.880
If you can't talk about it, you shouldn't do it.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:43.519
Yeah.
00:36:44.320 --> 00:36:49.840
Um if you don't feel like you need to hear about it, that's a different thing.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:52.880
You know, if you're like, oh, I just it's not doesn't make me upset.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.519
I just am like, you know, here home doing work.
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.920
I don't need to hear about every detail that you just had.
00:36:58.159 --> 00:36:58.320
Right.
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:05.840
But if it's like I can't hear about it because the thought of you with another man makes my blood boil, you're gonna talk about that.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:06.719
Yeah.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:07.679
Mm-hmm.
00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:08.320
Yeah.
00:37:08.559 --> 00:37:09.280
Interesting.
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:10.079
Interesting.
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:18.559
Yeah, I I do see where this could take communication trust in a relationship to a whole new level.
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:20.960
Um I I like this.
00:37:21.119 --> 00:37:22.719
I like this ask versus tell.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:26.000
I like this what makes you feel comfortable today.
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:26.800
Mm-hmm.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.239
Because it might not be what makes you feel comfortable tomorrow, right?
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:30.800
Right.
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.599
Yeah.
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:35.360
You know, I could be feeling great about myself, right?
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.679
Say I'm having like the best day ever.
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:39.840
And what's a good example?
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:45.920
My husband wants to go hook up with somebody who maybe I don't know, I have some like competitiveness with.
00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:46.239
I don't know.
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:46.719
Yeah.
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:47.360
Great example.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:48.400
But you know what I'm talking about.
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:49.599
And I'm like, yeah, who cares?
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:50.639
I feel on top of the world.
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:51.760
That doesn't bother me at all.
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:52.239
Yeah.
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:56.400
A week later, I'm feeling down, I'm feeling insecure.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.199
That person would have a very different relationship.
00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:03.599
And I'd be like, hey, I actually don't feel like I want that.
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:10.320
That of course, the the backlash would be like, well, why would you want to invite that into your life?
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.360
And a lot of people don't, and that's also okay.
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:13.920
Yeah.
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:14.239
Yeah.
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:17.119
You know, I don't mind a lot of relationship work.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.360
It's what I was brought up doing.
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:21.679
It's all my family talks about is relationships.
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:23.440
This is where I feel comfortable.
00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:26.880
This is not where a lot of men feel comfortable in particular.
00:38:27.039 --> 00:38:32.639
A lot of men are not socialized to talk about their emotions with this much depth and care.
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:33.440
Mm-hmm.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:33.840
Right.
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:36.639
And there's no moral judgment about that.
00:38:36.800 --> 00:38:42.239
If you don't want an open relationship, that does not mean you're less evolved than other gay men.
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:43.679
Yeah.
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:44.239
You know.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:44.719
Okay.
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:48.320
And so then then there's open relationships where you play together.
00:38:48.639 --> 00:38:49.039
Totally.
00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:49.519
Right.
00:38:49.679 --> 00:38:50.000
Right.
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:52.639
And then there's there's so many different types.
00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:53.280
Right.
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:59.679
And sort of why it's also so hard to like find information about it is because there are so many types, you know.
00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:03.760
Someone could look at my relationship and be like, well, that to me looks more like polyamory.
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:16.480
That to me looks more like you know, I had a post recently, and and some people were like, hey, this feels very like primary couple-centric, and you're sort of excluding the experiences of polyamorous people.
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:18.880
Because again, like I'm an emotional person.
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:22.159
I like to know the people that I'm having sex with.
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:29.360
And yet I'm not really at this point interested in having another per relationship, right?
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:31.440
I'm not interested in having another boyfriend.
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:34.800
And to me, that's why I talk about open relationships so much.
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:40.559
It is a a primary couple with tangential experiences.
00:39:40.800 --> 00:39:41.119
Yes.
00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:43.440
And those relationships can look however you want them.
00:39:43.599 --> 00:39:50.880
They could be someone you both know, someone you both have sex with, someone you have sex with together, someone only one person knows.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:53.599
Like you get to make it however you want.
00:39:53.760 --> 00:40:01.920
And again, what I try to do is is give people the tools to have and build the relationships they want, not necessarily the ones that they've inherited.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:04.239
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:05.440
Okay, good.
00:40:06.079 --> 00:40:10.719
Okay, so some there's two there's two kinds of camps that I see.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:23.920
One is the couple is open, and one of them finds chemsex because especially where you are, the the possibility of running into crystal meth is very high.
00:40:24.159 --> 00:40:43.280
I don't know if you ever have, but um, it's it's it's very it's very likely that you're going to show up and they're using their and they have a pipe or whatever, or you know, so then they try it, they love it, and then they're hooked because it's a very, it's a very addictive substance.
00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:48.719
Um, and so then you've got to, you know, then we have basically the problems that ensue.
00:40:48.880 --> 00:41:09.360
So what would you say if if I'm a couple and I'm opening them up, what are some things we could do to maybe prevent that or have a communication line open that yeah, that I guess could prevent that or or take care of it kind of soon into it.
00:41:09.679 --> 00:41:10.000
Yeah.
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:18.800
I mean, again, this will be my disclaimer of I I don't have a ton of experience in this particular area.
00:41:19.119 --> 00:41:19.360
Yeah.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:24.239
Um, but I think a lot of these learnings and lessons can can be applied.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:25.039
It's interesting.
00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:33.840
So I grew up in Hawaii, and Hawaii has a really intense meth uh problem and a really intense schooling about it.
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:34.480
Yeah.
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:40.480
Um so I think part of it is discussion about it before it happens.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:40.800
Yeah.
00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.639
You know, I I was learning about the effects of meth when I was 12.
00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:48.800
I I would say I got a better meth education than I did sex education.
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:49.360
Yeah.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:50.400
Interesting.
00:41:50.719 --> 00:41:57.119
Um, and that for me personally has never left my brain.
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:04.880
And so I bring that up because I do think talking about it in advance is really helpful.
00:42:05.840 --> 00:42:16.400
Um and in this question, like, are you talking about a couple who has experience or somebody who it might be an introduction to?
00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.800
Yeah.
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:23.199
So this this scenario, camp one, is we've we're just opening up, right?
00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:25.760
And then, yeah, and then one of them gets introduced.
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:39.119
So I think what you're saying is good in terms of if you're if you're a couple, you're listening to this, or let's say you get into a relationship later, is first of all, talk about this what are the signs and the symptoms of somebody who's using.
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:39.760
Uh-huh.
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:41.920
What are the profiles like?
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:43.519
What is the language?
00:42:43.760 --> 00:42:45.679
You know, like let's educate ourselves.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:48.239
When I was like, what do you mean?
00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:48.960
Do I party?
00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:50.000
And I was like, oh.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:56.000
I'm pretty sure my response they asked me, and I was like, I've I've like smoked a little bit of weed.
00:42:56.559 --> 00:42:58.880
But again, learning and all of this knowledge.
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:00.400
That's right.
00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:03.199
Um, educating yourselves as a couple.
00:43:03.519 --> 00:43:13.920
Because I I I've heard this said by a couple of don't if you're going to go out, uh, don't fuck around with the tweakers, you know.
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.480
Well, that's not that's not specific enough.
00:43:16.719 --> 00:43:17.280
It's not helpful.
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:18.960
That's not helpful.
00:43:19.280 --> 00:43:20.079
That's anyone.
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:21.440
Yeah, right.
00:43:21.599 --> 00:43:21.840
Yeah.
00:43:22.079 --> 00:43:22.400
Right.
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.960
Um, so talking in advance, I think.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:32.880
And and I'm wondering about, do you think, I mean, are are there couples that check in?
00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:35.039
Like, I'm I'm going into my hookup.
00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:40.159
I'm book like booking, bookending the hookup, is that reasonable for some, do you think?
00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:40.719
Yeah.
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:48.559
I mean, especially again, when I was traveling, I would text my husband and be like, hey, heading over, you know, he has my location.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:51.519
So I was like, if you don't hear back from me in like an hour.
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:59.679
You know, and but that's like a it's not weird because it's it's so common and it's what gay people do, but it isn't an interesting.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:11.039
Aspect of gay culture is like there is a bit of risk involved with our sex that is, I mean, I guess there's like pregnancy risk for women and assault risk.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:14.079
Like there's risk, unfortunately, for everyone.
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:22.639
But in this context, yeah, we do go and have sex with people who we have never met and don't know at all.
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:34.639
And there have been experiences where, and I'll say I don't know enough about using, but where I'm like, oh, was that person fully sober or maybe not?
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:35.280
Yeah.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:48.559
Um, and I think what has helped me is having a safe, comfortable partner space where I can sort of laugh about that, to be like, yo, Casey, you will not believe what just happened.
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:49.679
You know?
00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:55.199
And we can laugh about it because we can have the space to sort of explore it.
00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:57.360
You know, I think shame is a really big one.
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:04.239
I think shame is the reason that drugs are so prevalent in the gay community, and shame is the reason that then we don't talk about it.
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:05.679
That's exactly right.
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:06.400
Yep.
00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:07.199
Yeah.
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:14.719
And so I would actually then like point the question back to you of like, what have you found our easy ways to talk about it?
00:45:14.960 --> 00:45:18.159
Because I think it's it's the same conversation.
00:45:18.719 --> 00:45:19.360
Yeah.
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:23.599
To talk about specifically.
00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:35.280
If it's a couple who has never used, and even if they don't use in a sexual situation, but they're like, hey, like, you know, I don't know, this guy seemed a little strange.
00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:39.119
Maybe he's like restaurant, like, what are the yeah?
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:40.480
I mean, the there's a lot.
00:45:40.639 --> 00:45:44.480
So recently I this is funny.
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:49.760
Um, I was invited to a hotel room of a thruple, and they were in town.
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.039
Like the uh all three, like hot thruple.
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:54.239
I was like so flattered.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:56.639
I was like, oh wow, wow, you know, and I'm gonna go do this.
00:45:56.800 --> 00:46:01.760
So I went up on my way, so I got to the hotel on the elevator up.
00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:06.239
He one of them messaged me and said, Oh, we just we just dropped a bunch of water in the floor.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.760
Can you give us a minute?
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.760
And ding in my head, it was a ding ding ding.
00:46:11.840 --> 00:46:13.440
Like, this sounds messy to me.
00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.480
Yeah, it sounds messy to me.
00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:20.960
Um, but I and that by that time I'm in the hallway looking at their doorway.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:22.800
I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna do it.
00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:23.440
I'm just gonna go.
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:25.599
Maybe they did just drop water, right?
00:46:26.079 --> 00:46:34.000
So when you when you're talking to, when you're talking to somebody who's using their their responses usually are very delayed.
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:34.639
Okay.
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:38.559
Okay, that's one thing, is they're very delayed in getting back.
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:48.400
Um, they may ask you the same question a lot, and there's very little like um uh due diligence.
00:46:48.719 --> 00:46:50.159
Like, you know what I mean?
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:52.800
Like then they quickly invited me up to the room.
00:46:52.960 --> 00:46:57.679
In my mind, even at this point of eight years in recovery, I still fell for it.
00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:00.000
I was like, oh, they just really they're just really into me.
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:02.639
You know, they didn't ask me like what I was into or anything.
00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:03.840
I mean, I guess I don't know.
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:10.559
But so those are some of the things too, is that when you're on meth, your your standards are very low.
00:47:11.599 --> 00:47:13.519
A dick and a hole is all that you want.
00:47:13.599 --> 00:47:15.840
It doesn't matter what's attached to it.
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:22.880
So when I go in, they're all three already naked, which is a little bit of a sign too.
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:28.000
Um, and then they're all three kind of playing with flaccid dicks.
00:47:29.039 --> 00:47:32.159
All signs that they've been using, right?
00:47:32.719 --> 00:47:41.039
So I kind of thought, okay, well, they're not hard yet, but then you know, you can tell like they're they're jacking a limp dick, all of them.
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:41.440
Right.
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:46.079
So then one of them gets up and comes to me and just like jittery.
00:47:48.159 --> 00:47:48.800
You know what I mean?
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:50.480
Like something like that.
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:51.519
And I was like, I left.
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.079
I was like, okay, that's all I need, that's all I need, that's all.
00:47:54.239 --> 00:47:54.800
This was great.
00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:59.280
Or when I turned around, he was letting another guy in.
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:01.119
There you go.
00:48:01.360 --> 00:48:06.239
This this guy, no offense, so unattractive.
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:11.920
It's so all this flattery that I was feeling about them inviting me up was gone.
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:14.239
I was like, I need to get the fuck out of here.
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:17.519
Anyway, that those are some things to look for.
00:48:17.679 --> 00:48:18.239
Yeah.
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:27.119
You know, and I think it's a disadvantage too, like you're saying, of not maybe getting to know somebody first before you're before you do hook up.
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:35.840
And I don't expect you to do that every time in an open relationship, but those are some signs and some symptoms, you know, that that they're using.
00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:46.719
And I would say a yeah, a a a benefit, uh, a possible good thing about being in an open relationship, if that's the case, is that you can sort of like debrief about it.
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.719
You can talk about it, you can say, like, oh, these are the things I learned, these are things I did it.
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:52.320
This is it was really scary.
00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:54.880
Like, will you comfort me?
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:55.440
Yeah.
00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:55.920
Yes.
00:48:56.159 --> 00:48:56.559
You know?
00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:57.360
Yes.
00:48:57.599 --> 00:48:59.840
It but it all comes back to communication.
00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:00.480
Right.
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:32.480
And so that's what I was gonna say is it seems to me that in order for me to be completely honest, to feel comfortable in a container, to share that maybe I used, you know, what I like I knew he was using and I went ahead and used, like being able to be in a a relationship where I feel comfortable sharing that without shame, it seems to me that there's gotta be a lot of work uh on the front end before you're opening this up.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.400
Isn't yeah, right?
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.599
I mean, again, every relationship's different.
00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:38.320
Right.
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:49.440
But whether or not there is work done, I think is dependent on the trust, safety, and communication you have with your partner.
00:49:49.679 --> 00:49:57.199
If that comes really naturally, and you guys, you know, I I know couples who have always been open, who started open and then just stayed open.
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:01.360
I know couples who have started monogamous for 20 years and then opened up.
00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:11.920
And I think there is no relationship health benchmarker quite as strong as like respect, trust, and communication.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:17.199
Um and like a shared dedication to each other's happiness.
00:50:17.280 --> 00:50:22.960
You know, as soon as you like stop caring about your partner, all that other stuff goes out the window.
00:50:23.199 --> 00:50:33.039
And I think a lot of open couples, some open couples, that happens quickly, then they open up to try to, you know, fix the relationship, but they don't give a shit about their partner.
00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:34.480
So they're like, well, I'm gonna do what I want.
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:41.840
And that is again where all of this conflict comes from because we don't want to do the hard work of communicating about what we're feeling.
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:44.719
I sort of feel like I didn't answer your question.
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:45.760
No, you did.
00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:55.039
You didn't because you know, because I I came into the podcast thinking we could give like a step-by-step guide, and there isn't one.
00:50:55.360 --> 00:50:55.519
Right.
00:50:56.079 --> 00:50:59.760
Until you write your book, I'm so I'm assuming you're writing a book.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.360
Um, but you know, which is going to be really so good.
00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:27.039
But anyway, I I feel like if we zoom out, if you're listening to this and let's say somebody's used and you've closed the relationship back up for a little while and you're about to open it up, or somebody or you're about to open it up and and there's a chance of using is is asking yourself these questions that you're saying is what feels comfortable for me and for us, right?
00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:30.000
So if if yeah, go ahead.
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:38.320
I think there are two really important points to talk about here is open relationships are hard.
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:43.760
Open relationships plus recovery plus chem sex are harder.
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:44.559
Yeah.
00:51:44.960 --> 00:51:45.119
Yeah.
00:51:45.280 --> 00:52:00.880
And I think it's really important in this context to very deeply make sure that if you are opening things up again post-using, you make it as easy and comfortable as possible.
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:08.960
You know, make sure that you are gonna hook up with someone, maybe who you already know, maybe who you know is a a safe person.
00:52:09.119 --> 00:52:09.280
Yeah.
00:52:09.519 --> 00:52:12.400
Maybe you hook up at their house.
00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:18.000
You know, if if you used in certain spaces like hotels, maybe don't hook up in a hotel.
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:27.280
Like, make sure that you can strip away all of the things that would add a complication because it's already gonna be complicated, especially if there's been breaches of trust in the past.
00:52:27.599 --> 00:52:27.920
Yeah.
00:52:28.079 --> 00:52:29.199
That's part one.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:36.960
Part two is that you will only know how you feel about something after you've done it.
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:49.280
And I think that's another part of open relationships that that people either make or break is like you have to have some grace with your partner and you have to allow for some level of discomfort.
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:56.559
You shouldn't allow for not feeling safe, but there's a big difference between discomfort and safety.
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.920
And so talk to your partner.
00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:03.920
Make sure that you ask the questions of what do I feel comfortable doing?
00:53:04.079 --> 00:53:05.760
Where do I feel comfortable doing it?
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:08.079
How much emotion do you feel comfortable with?
00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:13.039
What do we, what do you and I as the primary couple need afterwards to heal?
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:14.400
Do we go out to a nice dinner?
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:15.599
Do we take a bath together?
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:16.719
Do we have sex?
00:53:16.880 --> 00:53:18.400
Do we give each other a massage?
00:53:18.559 --> 00:53:20.880
Do we just watch TV on the couch together?
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:24.559
Like what will make us feel like we're coming back together stronger?
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:33.280
And then acknowledge that there's gonna be emotions and that you feel comfortable enough to navigate those emotions together afterwards.
00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:40.559
You know, aftercare is really important, and you need to do it with yourself, you need to do it with the person you just had sex with, and you need to do it with your partner.
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:41.440
Yeah.
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:42.239
Yeah.
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:43.280
Interesting.
00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:44.239
That was great.
00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:45.280
That's good.
00:53:45.519 --> 00:53:48.159
As easy and comfortable as possible.
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:52.719
And then some things you grow on, you only know how you feel about them after you've done it.
00:53:52.960 --> 00:53:53.440
Right, right.
00:53:53.920 --> 00:54:03.280
Like the first person, I mean this might be like the first person I I will remember the first person I had sex with opening up my relationship with sexual.
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:03.679
Like, right?
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:04.639
Because it was weird.
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:06.480
I was like, how are we gonna feel?
00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:07.760
What's this gonna be like?
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:08.880
And we talked about it.
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:14.159
We my husband and I, we weren't married then, but we talked about like who feels safe.
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:21.440
And for us, it was somebody that I already knew, somebody who I had sex with before we got together, who there was a healthy relationship between all parties.
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:22.159
Yeah.
00:54:22.480 --> 00:54:29.599
And it was weird, and we figured out my emotions afterwards, but it was a safe experience.
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:31.360
I like that.
00:54:31.840 --> 00:54:32.559
I like that.
00:54:32.800 --> 00:54:33.280
Yeah.
00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:35.760
It just, yeah, I think being intentional.
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:39.039
Being intentional, being safe and and moving slowly.
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:39.679
Yeah.
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:40.000
Right.
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:40.239
Yeah.
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:45.199
A lot of people say like, move at the pace of the less secure partner.
00:54:45.760 --> 00:54:47.519
Ah, I like that.
00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:51.119
Yeah, I don't, I'm like, I think I think I agree with that.
00:54:52.559 --> 00:55:02.079
Unl until, like again, with a caveat of like, if then you're just like always dragging and it's never matched, then there's something to be said there.
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:12.480
Something else I think is important to just have the listener know is that there's a big difference between balanced and equal in an open relationship.
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:20.239
A lot of couples really get into trouble because they're trying to stay in pace with their partner.
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.039
They feel like if their partner has sex, then they have to have sex.
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:27.039
If their partner has sex a certain way, then they have to have sex with a certain way.
00:55:27.280 --> 00:55:27.920
But you don't.
00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:31.280
That'll actually just like really be a recipe for resentment.
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:34.719
So, like, know how you want to have sex, know what makes you happy.
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:45.920
It's like your solo sexual experiences are yours and they're allowed to be yours in whatever way you want them to be, as long as everyone's happy and and and okay.
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:51.920
And like it's okay if your partner has sex three times a week and you have sex once a month.
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:57.199
If that feels okay to the two of you, yeah, then you don't have to try to keep up with each other.
00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:58.079
Yeah.
00:55:58.400 --> 00:55:59.039
Yeah.
00:55:59.199 --> 00:55:59.760
Mm-hmm.
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:01.280
Okay.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:02.800
I like that.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:04.639
I like that balanced and equal.
00:56:04.719 --> 00:56:08.400
There's a difference between, yeah, balanced and equal and discomfort and unsafe.
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:12.800
Um and then I also like this ask versus tell too.
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:13.280
Yeah.
00:56:13.519 --> 00:56:15.599
Although you said you've never been told no.
00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:16.880
What what happens?
00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:25.679
We we have I would say not never, but it's very rare.
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:26.239
Okay.
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:27.199
You know, yeah.
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.199
What we do in that circumstance or what we've we've tried to really play with.
00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:40.239
Um, my grandfather does counsel, which is a sort of Native American form of therapy and communication.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:45.360
And something that he talks a lot about, which we've brought in is like this sort of like third entity.
00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:52.400
And so we think about the relationship as its own entity, right?
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:57.280
So it's like it's not me versus him, it is me and him and the relationship.
00:56:57.599 --> 00:56:58.480
Yeah, I like that.
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:03.679
And what that helps us do is say, I might want to do something, right?
00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:08.000
Say I want to go off with someone and he does not want me to do that.
00:57:09.760 --> 00:57:18.719
If he says, and I I might have, you know, usually I'm always like, you're how we always have veto power, and I usually am really totally fine with it.
00:57:19.280 --> 00:57:26.320
So it's like, if I want to go do something, he doesn't want me to go, we balance how that feels about the relationship.
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:34.480
If I'm like, that'll make me sad, but it will be good for you, and I'm gonna be disappointed, but I don't really care, it'll be good for the relationship.
00:57:34.719 --> 00:57:37.440
So that's two for don't go, one for go.
00:57:39.199 --> 00:57:42.960
If and that sort of like helps us just like balance it out.
00:57:43.280 --> 00:57:54.880
If he says yes, but doesn't mean it, that's good for me, bad for him, and doesn't help us with our honesty and communication, bad for the relationship.
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:55.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:59.039
So even though I'm allowed to go, it's too bad and one good.
00:57:59.199 --> 00:57:59.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:04.480
Yeah, it just helps sort of diffuse the situation.
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:05.199
Mm-hmm.
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:06.559
I like it.
00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:07.679
I like it.
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:08.719
All right, Aiden.
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:10.000
What have I left out today?
00:58:10.159 --> 00:58:11.679
What do you what do you want to do about it?
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:14.480
I feel like I really covered so many things.
00:58:15.280 --> 00:58:16.000
We were all out here.
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:21.679
Just that, you know, it's I'm like, what's what's my last uh my last little message?
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:24.320
We're all out here doing the best we can.
00:58:24.639 --> 00:58:24.960
Yeah.
00:58:25.760 --> 00:58:31.760
And a relationship should make you feel good and help you grow.
00:58:32.159 --> 00:58:34.480
And those are my two metrics that I follow.
00:58:34.559 --> 00:58:37.199
And if openness works for you, great.
00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:37.599
Yeah.
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:39.440
If it doesn't work for you, that's okay.
00:58:39.599 --> 00:58:45.440
If your relationship flourishes and then doesn't work out, like it's not nothing's a failure.
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:47.280
There's no like problems here.
00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:50.639
We're all just trying to like the world is hard enough.
00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:51.360
Exactly.
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:57.519
Deserve love and you deserve care and good experiences, yeah.
00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:00.320
And a little bit of grace as we all try to figure it out.
00:59:00.559 --> 00:59:01.360
Yeah, right.
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:02.079
I like that.
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:05.199
And the last thing we need to do is turn on ourselves.
00:59:05.440 --> 00:59:06.079
Yeah.
00:59:06.400 --> 00:59:07.039
Right?
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:12.719
It's just this, you know, which is which is what's perpetuating, I think, the chem sex scene.
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:13.280
Yeah.
00:59:13.440 --> 00:59:19.360
You know, we're we're fleeing the main culture to to develop our other subculture where we do feel accepted.
00:59:19.599 --> 00:59:20.239
Right.
00:59:20.639 --> 00:59:23.519
And I mean, this will skip us on a whole nother tangent.
00:59:23.679 --> 00:59:24.480
Turn off your phones.
00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:29.199
Because we we are in such a dopamine culture.
00:59:29.360 --> 00:59:34.880
I actually don't know if this has been reported on, but our brains are so primed for dopamine.
00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:38.400
Uh, there's a great two great books, Stolen Focus by Johan Mari.
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:38.880
Yes.
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:41.440
And Dopamine Nation by Dr.
00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:42.559
Anna Lempke.
00:59:42.880 --> 00:59:43.519
Yeah.
00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:51.039
We are so like our brains are not, again, evolved to handle this much information and this much dopamine.
00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:56.079
So that affects how we experience sex, that affects how we experience porn.
00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:07.840
And so because we want, wa, wah, wah, want, and then we have this sort of like seesaw in our brain where we have so much dopamine, and our brain tries to balance it with anxiety and depression and these bad things.
01:00:08.320 --> 01:00:10.320
And so it really just perpetuates this.
01:00:10.559 --> 01:00:17.920
So I'd also say, like, really investigate your phone usage because that is something that no one attributes these problems to.
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:18.559
Right.
01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:21.840
You know, they're like, well, it's it's your partner, it's your communication skills.
01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:25.199
It's I'm like, no, it's addiction to our phone.
01:00:25.440 --> 01:00:25.760
Right.
01:00:26.000 --> 01:00:26.320
Right.
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:30.800
Let me go get on medication instead of turning the phone off.
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:32.000
Yeah.
01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:37.519
In the in one of these books, he's like, going to a doctor and saying you have ADHD is like going and saying you have a cough.
01:00:37.599 --> 01:00:39.280
He'll hear you cough and be like, great.
01:00:39.440 --> 01:00:41.119
So you have trouble paying attention?
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.239
You don't need some might, some do.
01:00:44.719 --> 01:00:48.159
There are rising ADHD levels and they're really tied.
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:51.760
Don't get me going, Aiden.
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:52.800
I get I get enough.
01:00:53.039 --> 01:00:54.880
No, that is something I get hate about.
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:55.920
What?
01:00:56.639 --> 01:00:57.039
Oh, right.
01:00:57.760 --> 01:00:59.519
My viewpoint on ADHD.
01:00:59.679 --> 01:00:59.840
Yep.
01:00:59.920 --> 01:01:02.079
You know, it is the self-tagness.
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:05.679
In one of those books, this is the last thing I'll say.
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:13.519
Your IQ is lower if you are constantly distracted at work than if you are drunk or stoned.
01:01:14.320 --> 01:01:22.159
So having constant distractions will make you worse at your job than if you showed up wasted.
01:01:23.840 --> 01:01:24.239
Right.
01:01:24.320 --> 01:01:24.639
Yes.
01:01:24.960 --> 01:01:28.639
And yes, and yet we're just becoming more dependent on them.
01:01:30.079 --> 01:01:31.760
Um, Aiden, thank you.
01:01:31.920 --> 01:01:34.320
You have your Substack.
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:38.000
Oh, you have 20,000 uh subscribers on Substack.
01:01:38.159 --> 01:01:39.039
What a following.
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:40.880
A big following on Instagram.
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:44.320
We're gonna put your uh handle in the show notes.
01:01:44.400 --> 01:01:45.599
Please follow Aiden.
01:01:45.920 --> 01:01:50.639
Looks like a lot of my friends and colleagues follow you already, and no surprise.
01:01:50.719 --> 01:01:54.960
Um, not A-I-D-E-N.
01:01:55.519 --> 01:01:56.719
A lot of people mistake.
01:01:56.960 --> 01:01:57.360
Yeah.
01:01:57.679 --> 01:01:59.840
Yeah, and it'll be in the show notes too.
01:02:00.000 --> 01:02:02.800
Um but yeah, yeah, we really appreciate you being here.
01:02:02.880 --> 01:02:06.480
This was good, really good for me, good for the listeners, I'm sure.
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:16.719
Um, and then you guys, if you have any questions or you have comments you want to engage in conversation, you can comment on Spotify, you can comment on YouTube, or you can DM me or DM Aiden.
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:17.840
Yeah, you can do it.
01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:21.440
I try to be really active in my DMs if people have questions.
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:22.480
Nice.
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:23.599
That's good to hear.
01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:24.239
Thank you.
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:24.880
Of course.
01:02:25.039 --> 01:02:25.519
All right, guys.
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:26.880
Hope you enjoyed this episode.
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:28.480
We will see you next week.
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:29.440
Bye.