The Disclosure Process: When Honesty Opens the Door to Healing (Episode #72)

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Music.
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Dr. Kevin Skinner, Marianne, talking about a difficult topic today,
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and it's specifically around discovery and disclosure process and just a painful
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experience for so many people.
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And I want to approach this in a sensitive way and a caring way.
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What are your initial thoughts, Marianne?
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As you said, this can be, this is a hard topic.
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And for our listeners and those who are viewing us, I know that this can be
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a, ooh, I already went through this.
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I don't know how much I really wanna hear about this. That might be your gut reaction.
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And so just acknowledging that that might be coming up for you,
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talking about the day that I found out that my whole world changed.
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It isn't always our favorite topic.
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I hope that our conversation will be validating for you and also we'll give
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you some tools to hopefully move forward. Many of my clients come to me,
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and it's just a state of devastation. What do I do next? What do I do?
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We'll be addressing and giving some tools there.
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But also acknowledging some of our very first thoughts when we discover that
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we've been betrayed or it's been disclosed to us are kind of that catastrophic thinking.
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Does that mean that they're a pedophile? Does that mean that there are children that have been harmed?
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Does that mean that we're getting divorced? reversed that's immediately where
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our mind goes and that's really normal because we
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don't have answers we have no idea where the edges of
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this are and how far and wide and deep it goes you're describing a lot of questions
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like what about this and then is there more and i typically have found that
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upon discovery a lot of people are like is there more or don't i know and then
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start gathering information.
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And often their mind goes, what I refer to as worst case scenario thinking.
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What about this? Did this happen? Did this happen? And the more you do that,
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your partner or spouse may be like, what do you mean? And yet.
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All of those questions come online when there has been deceptive behaviors and
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hidden behaviors, begin to question everything that you thought you knew.
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That's a phrase I have often heard. And now it's like comparing it to the new
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information that we have.
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Yeah. And there's a state of, we don't know what we don't know.
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Oftentimes when my clients come to me and they'll say, well,
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I found this out and my partner said this.
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In my experience, what my partners know
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depending on how they found out oftentimes unfortunately
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they know the tip of the iceberg oftentimes as
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we go along and that's the tricky part we don't
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know how bad it is like what level are their children involved or what does
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this mean but we don't know the depth and it is often like what the research
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shows us is that and what my experience at least shows me is that most of the
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time when something's being disclosed or it's been,
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especially if it's been discovered, we don't come clean.
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We say, oh, okay, you have that much information. Okay, yeah, I'm caught.
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So, yep, I did that and I'll acknowledge that. But if you don't know about these
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other things, I'm not bringing them up right now.
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That would just be dumb if I did. And so we might only know this much when there's this much more.
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And I don't say that to surprise our listeners or viewers, but that's what I
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often see, and it's tricky. Yeah.
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The term we use, staggered disclosure, where you start getting information over
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time, trickle disclosure, where you get partial, partial, partial disclosure
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information, and really what we look at, what that does to the coupleship, right?
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Because eventually you get to the point, I remember as a little boy hearing
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the story of the boy who cried wool.
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And it's in some way similar to that is like, okay, wolf, wolf.
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Okay, problem, problem.
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Disclosure, disclosure. Okay, there's just so much more. So it's like,
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there's more. There's always, you're going to cry wolf all the time.
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I don't know what to do with that.
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And if we're looking at a relationship, we're sure not getting closer together.
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We're sure not getting vulnerable.
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If that over and over and over again, yeah, we get kind of not calloused,
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maybe that's not the right word, but a little bit dead and like, oh, here it is.
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After a while, it's just like, I'm just dead. I don't feel a whole lot.
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It's just like, yeah, but I'm sure not turning towards you. I'm sure not connecting with you.
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I'm sure not going to want to be vulnerable with you because you're not safe for me.
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Once again, you've just proven to me that you're not safe. And so I'm not letting my walls down.
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And we might and
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turn into some destructive habits at that point. Sometimes we shut down or sometimes
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we really get into some self-defeating behaviors just to numb ourselves from that.
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And if I was to extend that a little bit, that the coping strategy of not knowing
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what to do, because I think discovery and preparing for disclosure and even the disclosure,
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most couples, I think we should say this, they do it on their own before they
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ever get therapeutic health.
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They've had a lot of conversation around what's happened.
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And usually that's why we get a partial disclosure, because there isn't the
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depth that is required to really understand the complete truth.
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And I think sometimes couples think, well, that's enough. And we'll often hear
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phrases like, well, I've told you everything.
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Or my clients will say, he's told me everything.
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There's not any more. I've looked through the devices, and I'm pretty sure that we've got everything.
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And I wish that were the case.
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I can't say that I have had a couple of formal therapeutic disclosures,
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which I know we're going to talk about in just a minute. But I have had a few,
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maybe a handful where my clients have said, you know, beforehand,
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I'll say, how much do you think you know?
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Just to kind of gauge where they're at. So when we're done, we can say,
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how much did you actually know with what was shared? And I've had some clients
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say, yeah, the behaviors I pretty much knew, but I've never had one.
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Like, usually they'll say, I knew the behaviors. I had no idea how frequent,
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how long this has been going, like how deep and how wide this is.
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And usually there's some...
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Oh, holy cow. This is going to take me a while to wrap my mind around because
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I knew it was happening, but just not how much.
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Well, and this whole process that we're talking about. So let's go back from the very beginning.
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So there's discovery, what we refer to as D-Day.
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Usually the preparation for a full disclosure where all the information is real,
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that can be an extended period of time, months.
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Yeah. I want to just touch on one thing that I think is really important.
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And what I have found through all of the women that I have interviewed and worked
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with over the years, what I have found is, and what the research shows,
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is when we discover a partner's acting out behavior,
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the impact of discovery is more damaging to us than having a partner come and
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say, I need to talk with you. I need to share something with you.
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Like that, the levels of damage, of impact of PTSD type trauma that comes from
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that, they're significantly different.
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And so I at least start there. Yeah, you talk about stealth disclosure versus shock disclosure.
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Yeah, so whether it's an email or a message or somebody says something or I find something.
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And there's also a, I think in between those two, I'll sometimes have clients
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who come to me and say, something's off.
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Pretty sure I know what it is, but I can't find evidence of it.
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And so there's maybe like this in-between of, I'm pretty sure I see all the
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signs, but I haven't found evidence.
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And it usually comes eventually. Yeah.
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And so while there's many different forms of that discovery process,
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sometimes your instincts are telling you, sometimes your partner tells you, sometimes you find out.
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Research shows that more often than not that people find out on their own some
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kind of discovery, which again,
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as you indicated, often we see elevated levels of some of those trauma.
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And then we hear statements like, well, you would have never told me.
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If I hadn't discovered. And I think that that also is that continuous thing of rigorous honesty.
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Once you get into the recovery journey as an individual and as a couple,
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any slips or relapses, it's like we're talking about these because if we don't,
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then it's like, oh, you're still hiding.
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And is there even more that I don't know?
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When my clients come to me, one of the hardest conversations we usually have.
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So I have a client show up in my office and say, this is going on. I just discovered this.
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Oftentimes I'll say, I have no idea what to do.
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Like, like they're just hanging on by a thread and they're so grateful to be
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sitting with me saying, okay, I know you've got some tools.
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One of the hardest conversations that I usually have to have with my client
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in that first session is to talk about getting an STD test.
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Because we don't know how far, how wide. For some of my clients,
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they'll say, that's the most humiliating thing I've ever done.
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There's a lot of pain in this first stage because most of the time what we know is a fraction,
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it may be a fraction of what's really been going on and so that std test it
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might just be porn like we'll say well it's just porn so i don't need to worry
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about that and that might be the case and i hope that's the case but because
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we don't know at least that's something in my control that i can check off and
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say, is my health at risk?
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Yes or no? As I've worked with individuals, that's a really hesitant one for
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actually both partners. Well, what are you accusing me of, right?
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Yeah, right. So I hear that. And then it's like, oh, I don't want to go talk
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with a medical professional. And so there's this hesitancy.
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And I think what we're saying here is gathering information is really important
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because without that information, you can make decisions that could hurt your health for years.
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Yeah, this is about trying to piece together your reality.
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And because of the dishonesty, we don't know what our reality is in that moment.
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Here's a tool of saying, what is this and what is this not? Am I safe? At least in my health.
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So let's now take it to the next step. Okay. Because I think now,
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okay. Discoveries occurred.
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Now we're gathering information stage.
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And this is where I think we often want to rush through it, Marianne.
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We want to just go super fast.
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Like, so we're talking and asking lots of questions. And that's where I see
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the betrayed partner asking lots and lots and lots of questions.
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And sometimes they get information and sometimes they don't.
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Well, I told you everything.
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Or why do you keep asking the same questions over and over again?
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And when we get couples at this point in the therapeutic process,
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when they come into therapy, our job is to get a thorough assessment of what's actually happened.
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Because I have found that when I ask more thorough questions,
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what I call a sexual history timeline,
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I do a sexual history timeline, I get a whole lot of information,
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but really in many situations, the person who's been acting out,
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they see their life, their sexual life, sometimes even in a different perspective.
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And sometimes things come up or memories come up that they hadn't even thought about for years.
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And I want to talk about, boy, I want to dig into that because I love this part of the conversation.
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But before that, I think there's also another part I want to make sure that
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we're just really validating and talking for just a few moments about.
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And that's in this stage, in this early stage, oftentimes for a betrayed partner,
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there is a hypervigilance. It's part of the PTSD criteria.
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And oftentimes there's some detective, there's some like, I am going to scour
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everything because once again, I'm trying to figure out what's my reality,
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how deep, how far, how wide is this? And it's a normal behavior.
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It's not usually super healthy for me to be the police on what my spouse or
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partner's doing, but it's a normal reaction because we call it in therapeutic
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terms, we call it safety seeking.
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I'm trying to figure out if I'm safe or not.
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And it's not healthy. It's not a healthy place to get into.
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And I can imagine our viewers and listeners are like, what do you mean?
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Not knowing my reality? That's not safe?
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And so there's a fine line between saying this hypervigilance that says,
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I don't know if I'm safe, but I'm trying to figure out if I'm safe versus I'm
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going to police you. I'm going to follow you.
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I'm going to track you. I'm going to just be so focused on everything about you that I lose myself.
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And that's an important distinction.
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Because the concept of safety seeking, I think it's actually very normal,
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especially at the beginning.
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The challenge is staying in that space. Yeah.
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Right? Because I think in the beginning, you're gathering in this information,
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trying to get all that data.
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And then if you stay in that space, then you are in a place where your world
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is so focused on what they're doing that you stop living your world.
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And that is where I see people get stuck. And they're still,
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you use the word policing, they're still trying to monitor everything their
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partner does. and it literally becomes a new reality for them where they don't live their life.
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Sure, my healing stops because I'm so focused on all of my time and energy is
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focused on what my partner's doing. Right.
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So I just want to make sure we're addressing that. That's normal.
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And we want to move out of that place as well. And that's where we say,
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okay, when we're stepping then into the therapy office, we're really saying,
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okay, now I'm really working on my own healing now because I can't control what my partner is doing.
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And so I got to figure out what can I, I know you use the term that I love, locus of control.
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What's within my realm and my power to work on? And that's my own healing.
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It's making sense of my reality and my world.
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And then as you were leading into earlier and for, gosh, I'm just excited to
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talk about the formal therapeutic disclosure process.
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And I know you were jumping in there. So let's go back there.
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Yeah, so a couple of things that are important for I think all of us to understand
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here is, again, I said earlier, most couples do this part on their own and they
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feel like it's enough. So we need to separate this out.
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Why is it important to do a formal disclosure if we've already talked about the details?
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And what is that process that we would go through? And why would we go through
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it? What's the benefit of it? Why should we keep bringing it up?
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That's really the question and the pushback that we get most often,
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Marianne. So let's answer that question.
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Yeah, I want to respond to that maybe by asking you a question, Dr. Skinner.
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And my question is, when you've done formal therapeutic disclosures,
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which means it's something that you've prepared in therapy, you've prepared both partners for,
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how often have your betrayed partners known everything or found more information?
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In a few cases, I would say that there has been, because they've talked so much
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about it, it was just more of a formality, but also a completion of that story
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to make sure that there's not more.
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Sometimes there's a little bit more, one or two items that have never been talked about.
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And sometimes it's the shock factor of, I had no idea how much was going on.
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And those are almost always more difficult and more challenging because it's
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how do you prepare for somebody for that kind of,
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intense amount of information. Yeah.
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And once again, we go back to that, at least I use this phrase over and over.
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We just don't know what we don't know.
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When I'm working with my clients, preparing for a formal disclosure,
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I'm preparing for trauma.
00:15:45.322 --> 00:15:51.102
I'm preparing for there to be big discoveries because more often than not, there are.
00:15:51.862 --> 00:15:55.882
And once again, we get knocked back into that world of like,
00:15:56.122 --> 00:15:58.102
oh my goodness, how do I make sense of my reality?
00:15:58.422 --> 00:16:01.882
Get knocked back into that discovery or that D-Day that we talked about earlier.
00:16:02.302 --> 00:16:06.602
How do I make sense of my whole world now? And so when we're prepping for that,
00:16:06.762 --> 00:16:08.282
we're usually prepping for trauma.
00:16:08.722 --> 00:16:14.162
And one of the tools that some CSATs use, some CSATs don't use,
00:16:14.322 --> 00:16:16.722
is a lie detector test or an eye detect.
00:16:17.082 --> 00:16:20.742
And you know, there's some controversy and different therapists have different ideas on it.
00:16:20.902 --> 00:16:26.862
What I found in my experience is that it often brings things up that probably
00:16:26.862 --> 00:16:27.762
would have gone to the grave.
00:16:27.942 --> 00:16:33.942
My clients say, I wasn't going to share this with anybody, but it does bring more information up.
00:16:34.142 --> 00:16:37.942
And some people might say, well, this is like, I don't need that. And that's okay.
00:16:38.102 --> 00:16:40.982
It's usually about what my partner feels like they want or need.
00:16:41.142 --> 00:16:44.762
And sometimes it might feel like that's really extreme. But here's the reality.
00:16:45.322 --> 00:16:49.302
We're looking at a relationship, we're looking at a couple where
00:16:49.302 --> 00:16:52.222
there hasn't been honesty and we're trying to
00:16:52.222 --> 00:16:57.262
figure out how do we start helping this couple heal we've got to get the secrecy
00:16:57.262 --> 00:17:01.242
we've got to get the lying we've got to get the dishonest behaviors addressed
00:17:01.242 --> 00:17:06.782
and out in the open so that we can start re-establishing safety and rebuilding
00:17:06.782 --> 00:17:11.182
that trust in the relationship we can't do that if we have secrecy hiding and lying.
00:17:12.239 --> 00:17:15.819
I want to emphasize something here because this is where I have found that so
00:17:15.819 --> 00:17:19.219
many times I get, there's pushback, like, why are we doing this?
00:17:19.659 --> 00:17:22.779
And there's two research studies, one by Jennifer Schneider.
00:17:22.999 --> 00:17:28.439
They identified that after the disclosure, about 90 to 93% of those who did
00:17:28.439 --> 00:17:31.139
the disclosure reported that they were glad that they did.
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.099
So nine out of 10 were glad we did this.
00:17:35.219 --> 00:17:39.539
But maybe more important is the work by Dr. Peggy Vaughn.
00:17:39.719 --> 00:17:43.279
She did some research with a thousand individuals who'd been betrayed.
00:17:43.679 --> 00:17:50.019
And what she found, they were all infidelity cases, that when couples did not
00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:55.399
talk about the details, about 55% of them were still married.
00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:57.399
So she basically put them in three buckets.
00:17:57.699 --> 00:18:01.419
The first bucket is we did not talk about the details. The second bucket is
00:18:01.419 --> 00:18:02.719
we talked about some of the details.
00:18:02.879 --> 00:18:06.039
And the third bucket is we talked about the details more in depth.
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.319
So of that splitting it into buckets, those who didn't talk about it.
00:18:11.999 --> 00:18:13.779
55% of them were still married.
00:18:13.939 --> 00:18:19.299
But those who talked about the details, 86% of them were still married.
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:26.619
That's a huge number. 31% difference or increased probability of the marriage continuing.
00:18:27.199 --> 00:18:29.839
And I think it's because of what you were just saying, the honesty,
00:18:29.999 --> 00:18:32.899
the transparency, addressing the deceptive behaviors.
00:18:33.339 --> 00:18:36.519
Those are the areas that individuals are getting stuck in.
00:18:36.639 --> 00:18:41.339
And when I don't have that information, We go back to the concept of the Zygarnik
00:18:41.339 --> 00:18:44.479
effect of I don't know how to complete this story.
00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:51.079
And so the disclosure process is finishing, helping finish the story of the
00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:52.899
unknown. So I'm not guessing anymore.
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:58.779
And when it's done properly, again, I think we also have to be careful in getting
00:18:58.779 --> 00:19:03.899
too detailed in the disclosure where we're asking questions that we can never get out of our mind.
00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:08.359
So we also have to be sensitive to that part of the disclosure. Thank you.
00:19:09.304 --> 00:19:16.424
I love the disclosure process for the individual who's been acting out, the one who's betrayed.
00:19:16.844 --> 00:19:19.644
You know, there's different books you read, and sometimes I'll read books and
00:19:19.644 --> 00:19:22.384
I'll say, oh yeah, this will take like, you know, four weeks.
00:19:22.604 --> 00:19:27.264
And I look at that and go, oh, I can't get my client ready in four weeks for that.
00:19:27.624 --> 00:19:31.104
Because for me, what it usually looks like, my client will put together their
00:19:31.104 --> 00:19:32.984
personal, like sexual timeline.
00:19:33.444 --> 00:19:38.624
You know, I discovered a magazine under the bed at grandpa's house when I was seven or whatever.
00:19:39.304 --> 00:19:42.464
And they'll give me these bullets, and then we'll sit down together and we'll
00:19:42.464 --> 00:19:44.724
say, okay, what did you do with that?
00:19:44.844 --> 00:19:48.024
What did your mom say about that? Well, I thought I was bad.
00:19:48.344 --> 00:19:51.324
And this is where shame showed up, and this is where lying showed up.
00:19:51.404 --> 00:19:53.444
And so we start to, they're giving
00:19:53.444 --> 00:19:56.284
me like, this happened, and then we're starting to make sense of it.
00:19:56.364 --> 00:20:00.964
And as we put that down on paper, we start to get a really good picture of these
00:20:00.964 --> 00:20:07.844
patterns and core beliefs of shame and ways that I've thought about myself for
00:20:07.844 --> 00:20:08.884
years and years and years.
00:20:09.004 --> 00:20:12.124
Until we get that on paper, we often don't see the patterns.
00:20:12.124 --> 00:20:15.924
And my job as therapists is I'll usually say, and what about this?
00:20:16.104 --> 00:20:19.004
And what about, oh my goodness, I didn't even realize.
00:20:19.224 --> 00:20:24.384
But oftentimes in this space too, a client might tell me, oh yeah,
00:20:24.484 --> 00:20:27.544
my cousin who was five years older than me did X, Y, Z.
00:20:27.744 --> 00:20:35.804
And I'll say, oh yeah, did you realize that that was somebody offended against do sexually like that.
00:20:35.984 --> 00:20:39.504
We would consider that sexual abuse and then my clients need to stop and say,
00:20:39.684 --> 00:20:42.864
holy cow, and like try to make sense of their world.
00:20:43.064 --> 00:20:49.664
We're doing so much uncovering of shame and trauma and patterns that they're
00:20:49.664 --> 00:20:53.624
in the head that we haven't looked at in chronological order and been able to make sense of.
00:20:53.924 --> 00:20:56.444
And it's really an awareness space.
00:20:56.804 --> 00:21:02.244
So let me contrast that, right? When couples are doing it on their own, what about this?
00:21:02.364 --> 00:21:05.764
What about this? What about this? And so in that moment of intensity,
00:21:05.764 --> 00:21:08.604
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to give you all the information accurately,
00:21:08.604 --> 00:21:11.804
which leads to that staggered disclosure process.
00:21:12.484 --> 00:21:15.584
In contrast, think about how much preparation you're talking about.
00:21:15.724 --> 00:21:17.244
Let's do that full sexual history timeline.
00:21:17.404 --> 00:21:20.524
Let's go to specific timeframes. Let's go to events, then this,
00:21:20.624 --> 00:21:22.424
and then that. Oh, wow. Didn't think about that.
00:21:22.684 --> 00:21:28.864
That preparation, when I do a disclosure from that preparation place, it's thorough.
00:21:29.424 --> 00:21:34.084
My heart is more into it because I'm not in the moment of a fire just trying to respond.
00:21:34.304 --> 00:21:39.164
And the effectiveness increases significantly because it's properly prepared.
00:21:40.506 --> 00:21:43.986
You know, I'm smiling because you said properly prepared Dr. Skinner.
00:21:44.626 --> 00:21:48.106
And for our listeners or viewers, I'm just going to leave it there.
00:21:48.106 --> 00:21:49.086
I'm going to get sick of this.
00:21:49.626 --> 00:21:53.266
We'll have to watch our older episodes to get that.
00:21:53.366 --> 00:22:00.646
In there, we're opening up shame patterns, and we're opening up trauma.
00:22:01.806 --> 00:22:06.206
And those are things that oftentimes you want help with, especially if you're
00:22:06.206 --> 00:22:09.906
getting ready to go into your partner and say, here are the things that I did.
00:22:10.726 --> 00:22:15.006
Having somebody who can help you sort through that and make sense of that.
00:22:15.166 --> 00:22:18.186
If my client goes into a disclosure and it's all about them,
00:22:18.426 --> 00:22:22.146
that's going to be a really rough disclosure for the partner to receive.
00:22:22.526 --> 00:22:25.886
And so there's a lot of shame busting, I would call it.
00:22:26.146 --> 00:22:30.046
There's a lot of work. And it's what I'm trying to say is it gives us a map
00:22:30.046 --> 00:22:33.126
of the work that we need to do as soon as the disclosure is done.
00:22:33.646 --> 00:22:38.206
So we'll say, okay, here's our map of everything that God uncovered that we
00:22:38.206 --> 00:22:41.586
need to go work on to help heal and resolve for the recovery.
00:22:41.646 --> 00:22:43.446
And you're talking about dealing with negative beliefs.
00:22:43.606 --> 00:22:47.366
You're talking about dealing with shame that's been with him for maybe decades.
00:22:47.966 --> 00:22:51.406
And that takes time to really uncover that.
00:22:51.546 --> 00:22:54.466
And that's the hardest part. Because if we look at this the other side,
00:22:55.106 --> 00:22:56.686
the betrayed partner, I want this information.
00:22:56.866 --> 00:22:59.106
How can I even make decisions moving forward?
00:22:59.386 --> 00:23:02.546
What's taking so long? Yes.
00:23:03.566 --> 00:23:08.466
And that's where I see this internal battle, even amongst therapists.
00:23:08.666 --> 00:23:11.046
We're trying to rush through this. If you're working with, say,
00:23:11.106 --> 00:23:13.446
the betrayed partner, and I'm working with the betrayed partner,
00:23:13.646 --> 00:23:17.706
I might be trying to go as fast as possible, but then you got a vacation here,
00:23:17.846 --> 00:23:20.486
and you got this there, and they're sitting in limbo.
00:23:21.546 --> 00:23:26.466
And that's in a really painful space when I'm certainly not going to be connecting,
00:23:26.606 --> 00:23:27.846
and I don't know what to do with
00:23:27.846 --> 00:23:31.306
this at this point. That's where I see couples are having a hard time.
00:23:31.446 --> 00:23:35.406
So we got to set down the parameters and often trying to set a timeframe.
00:23:35.706 --> 00:23:41.506
So both individuals have this concept of we're trying to reach this point by a certain time.
00:23:41.566 --> 00:23:45.866
And it may be a month or two out in some situations, sometimes even longer if
00:23:45.866 --> 00:23:48.626
there's complex trauma on the person acting out.
00:23:48.926 --> 00:23:53.826
I'll give an example of that. I was working with somebody in supervision and
00:23:53.826 --> 00:23:57.926
they, I mean, the complexity of the person just getting their sexual history
00:23:57.926 --> 00:23:59.806
because of so much childhood trauma.
00:24:00.246 --> 00:24:03.526
It was shutting them down every time. It's like, I don't know if I can go there.
00:24:03.606 --> 00:24:05.626
So it was almost like, are we going to skip some of that?
00:24:06.026 --> 00:24:09.626
Because it was so emotionally overwhelming to the person.
00:24:09.986 --> 00:24:13.186
And so there's so much complexity to this process.
00:24:13.346 --> 00:24:15.066
Earning the trust and being able
00:24:15.066 --> 00:24:19.286
to create that relationship with both partners is not an easy process.
00:24:20.431 --> 00:24:23.991
And so there's this, I think this is a good space just to maybe add in,
00:24:24.211 --> 00:24:26.291
and I'd love for you to speak to this as well.
00:24:26.931 --> 00:24:29.951
You know, oftentimes I'll have couples or individuals come to me and say,
00:24:30.031 --> 00:24:31.171
hey, we need couples counseling.
00:24:31.311 --> 00:24:34.991
And it's like, oh, no, we need to wait for the couples counseling until we can
00:24:34.991 --> 00:24:39.011
start working through some of this stuff so that we can get the honesty out,
00:24:39.171 --> 00:24:41.591
so we can start the healing.
00:24:41.811 --> 00:24:46.111
However, in this space, what's really tricky is we're in this waiting pattern.
00:24:46.111 --> 00:24:48.911
And I'm waiting for my partner to get their disclosure done.
00:24:48.951 --> 00:24:51.231
And I'm trying to figure out what's going on with my life.
00:24:51.331 --> 00:24:55.391
And in the meantime, we have kids, we have jobs, we're trying to manage a life
00:24:55.391 --> 00:24:59.391
together, and we often get stuck with some communication patterns because of the pain.
00:24:59.751 --> 00:25:06.671
And I know for me, this is where I have created a course at Human Intimacy on Building Boundaries.
00:25:07.031 --> 00:25:12.291
This is why I created a course on couple communication and reflective listening.
00:25:12.531 --> 00:25:18.611
There are still tools that my clients need as a couple to work on,
00:25:18.831 --> 00:25:22.831
even though they're not ready for couples counseling and couples work together,
00:25:23.051 --> 00:25:25.991
there's still some basic communication tools that they need.
00:25:26.211 --> 00:25:27.531
And I know you've got a couple.
00:25:28.211 --> 00:25:29.831
What are the ones who created with them? Yeah, how to communicate when you don't
00:25:29.831 --> 00:25:34.051
know what to say. Couples still need relationship skills is what we're saying.
00:25:34.251 --> 00:25:38.831
Because just because I'm working recovery or working through healing from betrayal,
00:25:39.151 --> 00:25:43.991
it doesn't necessarily mean that I have the skills of communication that are
00:25:43.991 --> 00:25:45.471
going to be necessary moving forward.
00:25:45.991 --> 00:25:50.091
So yeah, we want to develop the relationship skills, but the couples therapy
00:25:50.091 --> 00:25:53.871
at that point is helping them to communicate effectively, understand each other.
00:25:53.991 --> 00:25:58.331
And what we're not doing in most cases is we're not creating deeper intimacy
00:25:58.331 --> 00:26:02.931
in the relationship yet because we don't feel safe enough or we don't have enough information.
00:26:03.291 --> 00:26:09.031
And so a lot of couples, it's like there's a holding pattern as the preparation is being put into place.
00:26:09.351 --> 00:26:13.171
And that's really what I call it. This is a holding period. And it can be very
00:26:13.171 --> 00:26:16.251
difficult because we, as a culture, we want it now.
00:26:16.431 --> 00:26:18.911
We want the answers to be done. I want to be through this.
00:26:19.910 --> 00:26:22.930
And it's just not possible to go that fast.
00:26:23.350 --> 00:26:27.850
And this is a place where I would say that we need more tools because we're
00:26:27.850 --> 00:26:30.170
heightened, because we don't know our reality.
00:26:30.550 --> 00:26:32.590
I don't even know if I'm going to stay in this relationship.
00:26:32.590 --> 00:26:37.390
And so we're already at a harder place communicating because our trust has been broken.
00:26:37.690 --> 00:26:42.830
I want to just really briefly just for our listeners just say this is what it looks like.
00:26:43.030 --> 00:26:47.830
So if you were doing a formal therapeutic disclosure, when we get to that point,
00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:50.110
it's actually a three-point process. It has three parts.
00:26:50.250 --> 00:26:54.750
This first part that we're talking about is really just, here's what I've done.
00:26:54.950 --> 00:27:00.030
And it looks like you with your client who, you know, it's two therapists and
00:27:00.030 --> 00:27:01.150
two clients in the office.
00:27:01.330 --> 00:27:04.410
It's the couple and the two therapists sitting in an office.
00:27:04.770 --> 00:27:09.490
Usually the betrayed partner has put together a list of questions that are going to be addressed.
00:27:09.750 --> 00:27:13.050
And that always takes some time with my clients for them to say,
00:27:13.150 --> 00:27:17.030
here's my questions. And we go through, make sure we always want to make sure
00:27:17.030 --> 00:27:21.150
we're doing like a 500 foot view versus a five foot view, because sometimes
00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:23.670
too much information, we just don't need it all.
00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:27.030
There's information that's just not always going to be super helpful for my
00:27:27.030 --> 00:27:30.450
clients. It might be more triggering in their brain and they can't get rid of it.
00:27:30.850 --> 00:27:35.010
And so we sort through what information do you know? What specific questions
00:27:35.010 --> 00:27:38.690
do you really want to make sense of? Like, was this a lie?
00:27:38.830 --> 00:27:42.950
What was going on? We're making sense of our reality. So it looks like,
00:27:43.110 --> 00:27:47.330
here is everything that I've done, here's my history, and here's me answering
00:27:47.330 --> 00:27:49.810
the questions that you asked through your therapist.
00:27:50.370 --> 00:27:54.550
After that, usually the betraying partner and their therapist,
00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:58.670
like there's a separation, and we work with the betrayed partners,
00:27:58.810 --> 00:28:03.450
okay, based on everything that you've just heard, what other questions do you
00:28:03.450 --> 00:28:04.730
still have? What doesn't make sense?
00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:08.230
What do we need to ask to just have explained a little bit more?
00:28:08.350 --> 00:28:11.590
And so when we're ready, then we all come back together again,
00:28:11.590 --> 00:28:14.190
and it turns into more of a conversation.
00:28:14.350 --> 00:28:18.490
Okay, in the disclosure, you said you were at this place or,
00:28:18.770 --> 00:28:20.390
you know, you told me this.
00:28:21.404 --> 00:28:24.404
Help me understand that, because this is what you told me. How does that fit?
00:28:24.844 --> 00:28:28.544
And so it's not a gotcha. It's not a blame or shame.
00:28:29.004 --> 00:28:32.704
Clarification. Let me make, did you say what I think you said?
00:28:32.824 --> 00:28:36.664
Because if you said what I think you said, then, oh, there's some pretty big
00:28:36.664 --> 00:28:38.524
ramifications around what that means.
00:28:38.924 --> 00:28:45.284
And so it's a clarification space. And that's that first phase of the disclosure process.
00:28:45.764 --> 00:28:49.064
I'm wondering what you'd want to add to that. The only thing I would add to
00:28:49.064 --> 00:28:52.644
that is when we go through that process in a therapeutic setting,
00:28:52.664 --> 00:28:57.824
as you just are describing, even the preparation afterwards, right?
00:28:58.284 --> 00:29:02.184
We probably might not be driving in the same car. So we might have a friend
00:29:02.184 --> 00:29:08.684
that's to support us afterwards, having that kind of a sponsor or somebody that you can reach out to.
00:29:09.144 --> 00:29:13.124
And then usually after that, there's a follow-up with the therapist within a
00:29:13.124 --> 00:29:15.424
short period of time to help evaluate where they're at.
00:29:16.024 --> 00:29:19.304
And sometimes it's just, I've had people not only driving separate cars,
00:29:19.404 --> 00:29:23.164
but not stay in the same place that first night or two, just as they're trying
00:29:23.164 --> 00:29:25.764
to process it. Now, some couples, it's not that way.
00:29:25.884 --> 00:29:28.444
They're like, we want to talk about this more and we want to spend more time.
00:29:28.604 --> 00:29:31.364
So I don't want to say there's rules or guidelines.
00:29:31.524 --> 00:29:35.464
It's just you have to, but I do say that it's usually a pretty intense experience
00:29:35.464 --> 00:29:41.044
and being able to do some self-reflection afterwards is a very valuable process.
00:29:41.864 --> 00:29:45.764
And for me and my clients, that's usually I take six to eight weeks getting
00:29:45.764 --> 00:29:50.684
my clients ready for that because we're saying, okay, what are you going to eat beforehand?
00:29:50.864 --> 00:29:53.944
We're planning on A, B, C, and D scenarios.
00:29:54.204 --> 00:29:57.864
We don't know what we're going to find. And so where are you going to sleep
00:29:57.864 --> 00:30:01.184
tonight if you don't want to sleep where your partner is and who's going to
00:30:01.184 --> 00:30:04.684
take care of your kids and who are going to be your support people?
00:30:04.824 --> 00:30:08.024
What are you going to do to regulate yourself? because, once again,
00:30:08.124 --> 00:30:10.484
we're planning for possible trauma.
00:30:10.844 --> 00:30:16.224
And so everything we can do beforehand to prepare for afterwards because it
00:30:16.224 --> 00:30:18.444
can be devastating. There's a lot that can come out.
00:30:19.144 --> 00:30:20.704
Yeah, and so now we've got there.
00:30:20.904 --> 00:30:23.504
Then the next part of that is what's referred to as an impact letter.
00:30:24.784 --> 00:30:32.344
And to me, that's often not used even in the CSAT world. A lot of people don't take that.
00:30:32.444 --> 00:30:36.184
And for me, it's a little surprising because that impact letter is the betrayed
00:30:36.184 --> 00:30:39.644
partner now responding to the information that they've just had.
00:30:39.764 --> 00:30:44.104
But also the previous experiences, like maybe the lies and the gaslighting,
00:30:44.204 --> 00:30:45.924
it's like I was led to believe.
00:30:46.144 --> 00:30:49.884
And so there's a process that we go through where they write about their experience.
00:30:50.884 --> 00:30:56.004
And it's so helpful in giving a voice to what they've experienced.
00:30:56.304 --> 00:31:01.044
And both, again, both partners have to be prepared for that because if you're
00:31:01.044 --> 00:31:03.944
the betraying partner, you can go straight into a shame spiral of like,
00:31:04.084 --> 00:31:08.104
oh, and so they have to be prepared for this because the impact is significant.
00:31:08.244 --> 00:31:14.264
In many, many cases that I've had, it's finally where the betraying partner is able to hear.
00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:20.010
Oh, that's the impact my behaviors have had. And that's a painful place to be.
00:31:20.530 --> 00:31:24.530
But again, if they can stand with that, they can be with that pain.
00:31:25.030 --> 00:31:30.510
That's again, a reparative process that's really effective. I wish more people understood it.
00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:36.490
This is one of my favorite places to work with my clients because what I see
00:31:36.490 --> 00:31:39.530
is putting a disclosure together and saying, here's everything that I've done.
00:31:40.050 --> 00:31:43.750
That's hard. That's hard work. It's ownership and responsibility.
00:31:44.790 --> 00:31:48.730
And pushing through denial, like the things that I've told myself that it's not a big deal.
00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:53.930
For a betrayed partner to say, now let me tell you how I feel.
00:31:54.390 --> 00:31:59.070
What I've done is a lot different than let me tell you how I feel when I am
00:31:59.070 --> 00:32:06.110
naked and I look in the mirror and what I see and how your behavior has impacted
00:32:06.110 --> 00:32:09.990
what I see when I look in the mirror or when we are being sexual.
00:32:09.990 --> 00:32:12.970
Let me tell you how that impacts me
00:32:12.970 --> 00:32:15.710
at this deep deep level let me put that into
00:32:15.710 --> 00:32:18.950
words this is vulnerability at such
00:32:18.950 --> 00:32:21.670
a deep deep level because i'm not just telling
00:32:21.670 --> 00:32:25.530
you about facts i'm not just telling you about things that i did i'm telling
00:32:25.530 --> 00:32:31.230
you about how i feel about it and how i interpreted it and how i translated
00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:36.750
that and made meaning out of it for myself and it is powerful And it's such
00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:41.430
a great place for my clients where we really work a lot on learning to use our,
00:32:41.630 --> 00:32:45.130
owning our language and not shaming and not blaming.
00:32:45.410 --> 00:32:50.750
And yet finding our voice of saying, this devastated me and let me paint you
00:32:50.750 --> 00:32:54.010
the picture of how this felt and how this impacted me.
00:32:54.170 --> 00:32:58.030
It's deep, beautiful work. And my clients can write it down.
00:32:58.962 --> 00:33:03.402
And then when I say, oh, let me have you read that out loud. Oh, the emotions.
00:33:03.762 --> 00:33:07.682
This is where all the emotions are giving. They're given a voice.
00:33:07.682 --> 00:33:09.542
They're being honored. They're being noticed.
00:33:09.922 --> 00:33:14.742
And that's where the healing can start to come because we're releasing it.
00:33:15.082 --> 00:33:16.762
We're not carrying it inside anymore.
00:33:17.282 --> 00:33:21.862
And as couples do that process, again, those are the first two steps.
00:33:22.182 --> 00:33:24.802
The third step in my mind is also is critical.
00:33:25.182 --> 00:33:29.982
It is. because now it's the betraying partner responding saying,
00:33:30.182 --> 00:33:32.862
okay, it's what we call an emotional restitution.
00:33:33.102 --> 00:33:38.002
I love the words because how do I restore? How do I make it better? How do I make amends?
00:33:38.522 --> 00:33:43.302
And it is this one where it, to me, it's like, this was how I deceived you.
00:33:43.622 --> 00:33:46.122
This is how I lied to you. This is how I manipulated.
00:33:46.462 --> 00:33:50.722
And it's like giving the game plan of here's, here's was my game plan of deceptiveness,
00:33:50.722 --> 00:33:54.562
but it also is responding to the impact letter.
00:33:55.002 --> 00:33:58.442
And now that I have the awareness of how it impacted you, I can also address
00:33:58.442 --> 00:34:01.282
some of the core elements that you described in the impact letter.
00:34:01.502 --> 00:34:07.022
And again, this is me from a humble place saying, I see your pain.
00:34:07.062 --> 00:34:11.782
And that is where I see many betrayed partners, that transition when it's done well.
00:34:11.922 --> 00:34:14.362
And this is so complex and so hard.
00:34:14.542 --> 00:34:19.822
And most people don't want to go through this process because it is emotionally difficult.
00:34:20.122 --> 00:34:23.042
But when you do that kind of work, there are no more secrets.
00:34:23.722 --> 00:34:28.042
Even the deception and the lies, which we often we've talked about in the gaslighting
00:34:28.042 --> 00:34:29.482
podcast we did previously.
00:34:30.632 --> 00:34:33.512
Then we're actually addressing some of the gaslighting and the hidden behaviors
00:34:33.512 --> 00:34:34.972
that have not been talked about.
00:34:35.452 --> 00:34:40.112
And again, that's a very powerful, powerful step. Yeah, the impact letter I
00:34:40.112 --> 00:34:42.712
see as almost like a treasure map.
00:34:43.132 --> 00:34:48.172
Here is the path to helping your partner heal. They're giving it to you.
00:34:48.352 --> 00:34:54.332
And then in that emotional restitution letter to take ownership and responsibility
00:34:54.332 --> 00:34:58.332
and acknowledge my behaviors cause that.
00:34:58.332 --> 00:35:01.332
There is power that comes and healing that comes
00:35:01.332 --> 00:35:04.432
from acknowledging it's part of the forgiveness process
00:35:04.432 --> 00:35:07.372
it's part of the healing process and if we zoom out
00:35:07.372 --> 00:35:10.612
a little bit what i love about this formal therapeutic
00:35:10.612 --> 00:35:16.252
disclosure process it is a model for healthy communication it is a model for
00:35:16.252 --> 00:35:21.152
the future for moving forward hey i made a mistake let me tell you what i did
00:35:21.152 --> 00:35:27.572
the partner saying oh wow let me tell you how that's impacted me and then being
00:35:27.572 --> 00:35:30.012
able to respond to say I can see that's impacted you.
00:35:30.252 --> 00:35:35.292
Let me work to make that better. And I can see how I did that. It's a macro for this.
00:35:35.552 --> 00:35:40.472
We're talking about it. Micro concept of day-to-day conversation.
00:35:40.792 --> 00:35:45.872
Yeah, it's a model. And so when our clients use this process,
00:35:45.872 --> 00:35:50.432
it can be a really sacred place because this is where we see each other.
00:35:50.992 --> 00:35:53.812
This is where we're so vulnerable. We've pushed through
00:35:53.812 --> 00:35:56.572
the shame and we allow ourselves to
00:35:56.572 --> 00:36:00.592
be seen by our partner and it can be incredibly connecting
00:36:00.592 --> 00:36:03.412
and attaching i don't know how many i've done but
00:36:03.412 --> 00:36:11.472
i can just tell you that when couples go through this process it's like accelerating
00:36:11.472 --> 00:36:17.692
the healing process and then because we have this new foundation of communication
00:36:17.692 --> 00:36:23.332
and openness and trust trust in the process not necessarily the person completely,
00:36:23.532 --> 00:36:27.432
but trust in the process that what we're doing is showing a commitment.
00:36:28.562 --> 00:36:31.462
Because going down through that process is a commitment building process.
00:36:32.002 --> 00:36:34.142
When that's happening, it is
00:36:34.142 --> 00:36:38.522
creating the foundation to move forward to increase the trust over time.
00:36:39.082 --> 00:36:44.042
And that's one of the best experiences that I've had in the coupling and process
00:36:44.042 --> 00:36:45.522
is building that foundation.
00:36:45.522 --> 00:36:51.102
And now we get to talk about how to create better trust and intimacy and connection
00:36:51.102 --> 00:36:54.342
in the relationship because we have the truth and we're not guessing.
00:36:54.702 --> 00:36:58.222
I have just a couple of thoughts before we wrap up on this. The first one is,
00:36:58.562 --> 00:37:00.582
I always want to try and trust the process.
00:37:00.782 --> 00:37:05.242
As a therapist, things might be going really slowly or they're not working out.
00:37:05.322 --> 00:37:08.302
And I was like, okay, I'm going to trust what's going on. I'm not sure why.
00:37:09.182 --> 00:37:11.882
But, you know, I had a disclosure a little while ago.
00:37:12.822 --> 00:37:17.122
My client was really upset with it. She was just like, I was really crappy.
00:37:17.502 --> 00:37:21.022
That wasn't like, she was really disappointed with it.
00:37:21.442 --> 00:37:26.902
And I was like, oh, yeah. Yeah. And what I often see, and Dr.
00:37:27.042 --> 00:37:29.562
Skinner, you and I have talked about this, is often in betrayed partners,
00:37:29.822 --> 00:37:35.182
they will like binge on books and on healing resources and on information.
00:37:35.182 --> 00:37:36.802
Not on podcasts. Not on podcasts.
00:37:37.742 --> 00:37:41.142
Yeah. And it's like, give me all the information that I can because I want to
00:37:41.142 --> 00:37:44.722
figure this out. And their partner might be going slower.
00:37:45.622 --> 00:37:48.122
And I know we're going to talk about that in different podcasts.
00:37:48.122 --> 00:37:54.382
But sometimes my partners who've betrayed, sometimes like their emotional capacity
00:37:54.382 --> 00:37:58.302
is like this much and their partners is like this much.
00:37:58.762 --> 00:38:02.522
And so they may come to. It's very small and then very big. Okay.
00:38:03.491 --> 00:38:08.811
Yes. And so understanding that sometimes in that disclosure,
00:38:09.011 --> 00:38:13.451
sometimes the person disclosing doesn't have a whole lot of emotional bandwidth.
00:38:13.991 --> 00:38:20.971
And so it can feel frustrating. And what I've seen, though, is even the scenario
00:38:20.971 --> 00:38:22.991
that I shared where my client was frustrated,
00:38:23.491 --> 00:38:28.511
what was beautiful is they went home, and because they'd broken this open,
00:38:28.711 --> 00:38:30.871
they started having the conversations.
00:38:31.471 --> 00:38:36.111
And they were able to keep having the conversations. It was kind of like the
00:38:36.111 --> 00:38:40.691
gateway that for a decade, they'd never talked about any of this stuff.
00:38:40.991 --> 00:38:46.491
And now that barrier is down. So was it an awkward, not super great,
00:38:46.671 --> 00:38:50.871
not really eloquent, not really hitting everything that my client had hoped? Yep.
00:38:51.571 --> 00:38:57.551
And it provided a doorway into a new phase where conversations could start.
00:38:57.751 --> 00:39:01.391
Because you started having hard conversations, Marianne. Yes.
00:39:01.631 --> 00:39:03.171
Help them have these hard conversations.
00:39:03.431 --> 00:39:07.211
I really believe that as couples, we need to learn how to have difficult conversations.
00:39:07.431 --> 00:39:11.351
But in this situation, we have a couple walking us through perhaps the most
00:39:11.351 --> 00:39:16.091
difficult conversations, and we have guidance and preparation and understanding.
00:39:16.431 --> 00:39:22.151
And that process is that model that could be for effective communication throughout
00:39:22.151 --> 00:39:24.351
the rest of your marriage, the rest of your relationship.
00:39:24.631 --> 00:39:28.811
So I guess if I have a final thought is you may find yourself hesitant.
00:39:29.011 --> 00:39:31.871
You might find yourself afraid or scared or worried.
00:39:32.511 --> 00:39:36.591
What happens? Maybe they won't be able to handle it. They might not.
00:39:37.191 --> 00:39:42.651
But here's what happens. Right now, we have more and more people getting divorced
00:39:42.651 --> 00:39:46.271
because they don't have data, don't have information.
00:39:46.631 --> 00:39:50.131
And that's what that research piece showed is when we're not talking about the
00:39:50.131 --> 00:39:52.331
details, I don't have hope.
00:39:52.971 --> 00:39:58.331
When couples are making it, there is a disclosure process in most of those cases that are succeeding.
00:39:59.091 --> 00:40:03.191
And if I look at it one more way, it's how I can make amends.
00:40:03.471 --> 00:40:05.911
I can be honest and I can be truthful.
00:40:06.511 --> 00:40:09.331
I love that. It's beautiful. I want to add just one last.
00:40:09.971 --> 00:40:16.011
I don't think we can close this conversation without talking about when do we not do a disclosure.
00:40:16.711 --> 00:40:19.111
Because I think that's important. Very, very, very important.
00:40:19.231 --> 00:40:24.311
Very fair. And so what I would say to that is, and the way that I've been trained
00:40:24.311 --> 00:40:26.591
is, if divorce is on the table—,
00:40:27.518 --> 00:40:31.218
We don't usually do a disclosure at that point because we're not trying to heal the relationship.
00:40:32.318 --> 00:40:36.978
And knowing that my partner was unfaithful, I don't need to fill my brain with
00:40:36.978 --> 00:40:40.978
all the gritty details of that. We're not working on reconciliation.
00:40:41.438 --> 00:40:47.898
And so we don't use a disclosure to say, well, this is what happened and bring that up in court.
00:40:48.078 --> 00:40:50.978
Like, we're very careful about that. That's not the purpose.
00:40:51.198 --> 00:40:55.398
It is used as a therapeutic healing tool. I have clients say, I don't know, Marianne.
00:40:55.458 --> 00:40:59.058
I don't know what I don't know. And so we say, can you table that for a while?
00:40:59.278 --> 00:41:00.638
We'll get through the disclosure.
00:41:00.858 --> 00:41:04.818
Then you'll have informed consent saying, my partner shared all of this with
00:41:04.818 --> 00:41:06.638
me and now I really know what's going on.
00:41:06.998 --> 00:41:11.018
Now I can make a good decision about whether I want to continue investing in
00:41:11.018 --> 00:41:12.238
this relationship or not.
00:41:12.758 --> 00:41:17.438
But yeah, what do you want to add to that? I think that's a very important part of this.
00:41:17.618 --> 00:41:20.918
It's not wise to do a disclosure when you know you're going to get divorced.
00:41:21.278 --> 00:41:25.098
There may be rare exceptions. In general, if you're going to be going through
00:41:25.098 --> 00:41:28.418
a divorce, that information and data, you may say, well, I need to know everything.
00:41:28.918 --> 00:41:32.858
Your spouse, if they do give that information, that may be by their choice.
00:41:33.138 --> 00:41:35.778
We're very rare. I've actually had one case where that's occurred.
00:41:35.938 --> 00:41:38.618
It was like the person said, I don't care. I just want to help my partner heal
00:41:38.618 --> 00:41:40.078
as much as possible by my truth.
00:41:40.678 --> 00:41:44.378
But in general, it's not something that is recommended. yeah
00:41:44.378 --> 00:41:47.878
so i'm really grateful that we've
00:41:47.878 --> 00:41:50.678
had this conversation because you know most clients that come to
00:41:50.678 --> 00:41:53.938
me they're coming to me because of betrayal or because of sexual acting out
00:41:53.938 --> 00:41:59.818
behaviors and they want to understand the path through it is work it's a lot
00:41:59.818 --> 00:42:06.638
of introspective looking at myself going deep and what i will say just as we're
00:42:06.638 --> 00:42:10.278
wrapping up the marriage that you had before it's dead.
00:42:10.638 --> 00:42:16.738
It's gone. And this is a model and an opening for a new marriage.
00:42:16.938 --> 00:42:24.758
One that's got transparency and responsibility and ownership and vulnerability.
00:42:25.218 --> 00:42:28.518
And it can be a beautiful model for moving forward.
00:42:29.378 --> 00:42:31.978
All right. Well, thank you, Marianne. Thank you to our listeners.
00:42:32.398 --> 00:42:37.318
May you be blessed in your journey. And we've talked about something very difficult today.
00:42:37.538 --> 00:42:44.238
It is work, but in the work that consistency over time connection is possible
00:42:44.238 --> 00:42:49.938
healing is possible recovery is possible but it usually is truth honesty dealing
00:42:49.938 --> 00:42:53.678
with this pain that you've had and experienced as a couple can be very building
00:42:53.678 --> 00:42:56.678
so thank you very much for listening may you be blessed and you.
00:42:56.560 --> 00:43:15.989
Music.