Amy Edmondson: If you're not saying I don't know several times a day, you're not paying attention, and when we say I don't know, it unlocks the room, it's refreshing, you're building trust the most successful teams probably look the messiest during the how. the only mistake we make is thinking we shouldn't make mistakes, We would so much rather be right than wrong. And then we have this risk because of that, because of that programming, We don't celebrate sloppy work, we don't celebrate failing to put in the effort, but we must celebrate disappointing results in new territory.
Frederik: Think of the last meeting where you had something to say and didn't. Nobody noticed. Nothing changed. That small silence is what my guest has spent her life studying. Amy Edmondson is a professor at Harvard Business School, ranked the number one management thinker in the world, and the person who gave us the phrase psychological safety. It sounds simple, it changed everything. Everything about how we understand teams. When Google discovered that it was the single most important factor in our best teams, her research landed on my desk. My work became translating it into Google's culture from a study into something leaders actually do on a Monday morning. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, which is exactly what we talk about today. Because her newest book, Right Kind of Wrong, Is about failure and not the kind we usually mean. One more thing. I'm standing here in a geodesic dome in the Redwoods.
Amy Edmondson: Yes.
Frederik: There there is no single beam holding it up. So no single failure can bring it down. Amy's very first job was working for the man who made that shape famous. And I don't think that's a coincidence. Today Amy brings the science. I bring the stories from inside Google and from some of the German national soccer, German National Soccer Association. You bring the thing you've been afraid to try as a listener. Because here is what I've learned. The future you want is on the other side of a few mistakes you haven't made yet. Not the careless kind, the kind you choose. And if you want to create a better future, You have to become someone who can be wrong and keep going. This hour is about how. That is The Future Is HOW let's practice it together. Amy, welcome.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you so much. What a marvelous introduction. And indeed I I am not as observant as I should be because I failed to notice that very dear, important structure, very dear in my history. And I think you're absolutely right, it's not a coincidence.
Frederik: It's not a coincidence. So let's talk a little bit about that. So I built this dome three months before the pandemic with a couple of friends. And it's supposed to be a guest house, right? and then the world closed, and for a whole year not a single guest arrived, right?
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: So I worked from here instead. It turned out to be the best place I've worked from here in a little forest. So nothing about the plan survived and something better showed up anyway. I think about that a lot and I think you have a name for it.
Amy Edmondson: Intelligent failure? Indeed. How wonderful. So intelligent
Frederik: Yes, absolutely. Right. So what is intelligent failure? What
Amy Edmondson: failure is essentially being wrong in new territory. and an intelligent failure is a disappointing result where the following four things are true. Number one, it's genuinely new. You couldn't have just asked a friend, how do you do this? You know, gotten the recipe. Number two, it's in pursuit of a goal. You're trying to get better at something, or trying to innovate, or trying to make progress in your life. And number three, you have good enough reason to believe it might work. It's a hypothesis that you've done your homework. And number four, the failure is not devastating. It's no, it might be emotionally devastating, but it's not financially or from a human safety point of view or reputational point of view, any larger. than necessary to bring the new information. Now that might sound complicated or too many criteria, but it's it's essentially being wrong in new territory. And nobody likes it. We would so much rather be right than wrong. And then we have this risk because of that, because of that programming, that we're reluctant to try new things. So we're reluctant, and then we don't do the things we need to do to make progress.
Frederik: Let's talk about the emotional side of that later, I think, in the podcast, which is very interesting. I wanna I wanna stay a little bit in that structure that you know Buckminster Fuller was actually
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: creating. So, what did Buckminster Fuller say to you that you still hear maybe in your head?
Amy Edmondson: And well, it's funny. one of the things he used to say was, the only mistake we make is thinking we shouldn't make mistakes, right? Which is so apropos to our conversation. But I think what I'm most left with, the sensibility I'm left with that I simply can't shake is systems thinking. Right? He was he was just a perennial systems thinker. If if if you do this to cause that, yes, that might be true, but what are the downstream consequences and where might that Where might that come back to create unintended harm over the longer terms? So he was he was always stepping back, stepping back and out and looking at the largest possible view of a situation, not in a way that crippled action, but in a way that made for more thoughtful action. So he he was kind of the original, I mean he wasn't the original systems thinker, but in my own Career, he was the person who clued me into the need for systems thinking while describing constantly what he called design science. He said that you know the science of design, that that our our beautiful brains, he said, are to be used to design things and experiences and systems that make life better for others going forward. That's that's why we're here, he said. And I can't shake that. mission, right? I may I have not done a very good job of living up to it, but I but it is the mission.
Frederik: So what can someone who listens learn from Buckminster Fuller when,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: you know, he has this mission to really design things that make life better, right? I think that's such a a wonderful, beautiful mission that probably everybody should have in their lives, right? Like do something that makes
Amy Edmondson: Absolutely.
Frederik: your life better and other people's lives better.
Amy Edmondson: And we call that purpose in companies today. And it's and indeed it matters. If your organization does not have, you know, a c a clear purpose for making things better, whether it's just the lives of customers or society or the world in some way, get out of the way. Right. It's your purpose cannot be simply making money, or eventually someone will replace you who has a a sort of more com more compelling purpose. but the the insight that I think we all know. But easily forget is the whole is more than the sum of the parts. He talked a lot about synergy, synergy being the property of whole systems that can't be predicted by even the most careful dissection of the parts. It's the relationships between parts that best account for the behavior of whole systems. And in organizations, that's often the relationships between people, but also the relationships between various, you know. policies and operating systems that that that need to sync up, right? That need to work together for things to go
Frederik: I want to start with the reason you're actually here. I don't know if you remember, but a year and a half ago I invited you and you sent me the most disciplined no I've ever received. You said, Not now, I'm at capacity, even for the things that sound like fun. I I just love that no, right?
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: It was such a such a good one. And I showed it to my wife and
Amy Edmondson: True.
Frederik: I showed it to others as well. so I waited. And when
Amy Edmondson: Thank you. Yeah.
Frederik: I came back this summer, I asked again. Differently, and you said, let's make it happen. So, two questions I have for you. Is saying no a way of failing well?
Amy Edmondson: Yes, I I I think so. I had not put it that way before, but but saying no, well, saying no is indeed a way of failing well because you're s you're it is a small failure. It's it was a failure on my part not to be able to do what you were wanting me to do. and yet by being willing to engage in that failure, I had at least a better hope of succeeding on the things I'd already committed. to doing, which, you know, n nothing takes zero energy or time. So and and time time is the is the the one thing we know for sure is finite. So so yes, it was a way of failing well, but it's also, and everybody knows this, saying no is part of how you say yes to the things you're you have decided are your priorities.
Frederik: So what made this one a yes? Why did you say yes this
Amy Edmondson: Well,
Frederik: time?
Amy Edmondson: first of all I'm I'm very passionate about the question of how, right? And and it I think we don't put enough attention into into the how, into into the actual processes through which the results we want are are built. And there's there's too much effort on, you know, single lever solutions, right? That that you know, just get the purpose right and the everything will be fine. or you know, pay people the right amount, they'll be happy in their job. Right. None none of those those single single item solutions never work. So I was in I was intrigued by the you know the the notion that we're really dig into the how. And I think the how is collective. The how is, you know, there's no how that individuals can just execute on their own. More and more the really important problems that we need to solve are need they need a team, right? They n they need people working together to solve them. They need a diversity of experiences and expertise to solve them. And then I think also I do have a very deep debt to Google for Project Aristotle, which I had nothing to do with, as you know, but the fact that one day, ten years ago, I woke up and took the New York Times off the front porch and saw that it was the annual work issue in the magazine of that publication. And I always, you know, I always enjoy the work issue because that's what I do. I study work. And lo and behold, there's this headline that really took me aback because it said what Google learned in its, in its quest to, to build the perfect team, right? And that and the it said there's sort of new insights about Teams that I just thought, this is my field, and now I've been scooped by Google, and this is really terrible. And anyway, you know the rest of the story, but the it was that in fact, with so such a systematic and thoughtful study led by your colleague, I guess, Julia Rozovsky. the data said, no, it's psychological safety. Right. Many you know, other factors matter too, but that was by far and away the most important. she wrote, and it was the underpinning, I loved that word that she used, the underpinning of the others, you know, the the clarity of goal and so on. And first of all, that was a a stunning surprise, but but but second and more relevant to the saying yes is that put my research on the map of I mean academics were following it and citing it, but Not that many practitioners, you know, some coaches, some, you know, wonderful people in HR, some thoughtful people around the world, many in healthcare, but suddenly everybody wanted to know more about it.
Frederik: So let's dive into the how a little bit more. how do innovative, successful, effective teams actually work? And what's the number one thing people get wrong about what makes a team successful and innovative, right?
Amy Edmondson: Right. I mean, I s I suppose the number one thing to get wrong is thinking that success looks smooth and predetermined. When you know, I think the the most successful teams probably look the messiest during the how. The the process, the conversations are likely to have the most debate and conflict. They're likely to be reporting the most you know, failures and problems and and false starts that didn't work out. So they will look like they're in trouble, but they will be in fact doing something you know, meaningful, important, which is discovering what works. So I think, psychological safety, I think the the reason why this emerges as an important attribute of successful teams is that it roughly means permission for candor. Right. It roughly means you feel able to do the hard work of telling the truth about, you know, the mistakes that you've made, the wacky ideas that you you want to share and worry, you know, in many situations you'd worry that you'd look you'd be embarrassed. you you can ask for help when you're not sure what to do. Right. So it's this it's this enormous directness and candor and you know, speaking up, but it's also a sense of mutual ownership for the work and the and the and the goals. So psychological safety is like taking your foot off the brakes, the the ordinary brakes that hamper effective teams. And, you know, maybe that sense of psychological ownership or the motivation or the belief that what we're doing matters, that's the fuel. that's driving the car and you need both. You need that fuel and you need your foot off the brakes.
Frederik: I love that metaphor of we need the fuel and the foot off the brakes, right? I saw this at Google over and over again. the leader understood everything and still couldn't say, I don't know, in front of the team, right? So what words would you give that leader for tomorrow's meeting? Because that's something
Amy Edmondson: Yeah. Yeah.
Frederik: where in my work I needed to, you know, help these leaders to really kind of like step up and like, as you said, like, you know, take the foot off the off the off the brakes, right?
Amy Edmondson: Funniest thing about that, and I found it to be true, and and I we we can probably recognize it in ourselves as well, it's hard to say I don't know. There's so many cultural pressures and pressures from your upbringing and schooling that lead you to believe in a kind of a deep way that saying I don't know makes you look weak or stupid. When think about the people who do say it, they actually look confident and honest and likable. And especially today, maybe if it was a hundred years ago when most people could know just about everything, but but in today's hyper-specialized world, If you're not saying I don't know several times a day, you're not paying attention, right? Because clearly you don't know. You can't possibly have heard the latest thing on this, that, or the other story or the other, scientific discovery or You know, you name it. So we should be, and when we say I don't know, it unlocks the room, it's refreshing, you're building trust because it's so clearly honest and so clearly legitimate. Of course you don't know. and so I mean I I it's it's disarming when leaders realize that they can answer a question, I don't know. let's see what we can do to find out. And then suddenly Like there's more energy in the room as a result of that simple response.
Frederik: And so going even beyond, I don't know, admitting that something didn't work out, right? I think is something
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: not a lot of people can do, especially if you're in a leadership position. So at Google X, we created a day called the Day of the Dead, where we celebrated, you know, things that actually died, you know, in a in that metaphorical way of like that didn't work out, that project, that initiative, that technology, whatever, whatever it was. And it was important to celebrate it together like the the day of the dead where you let go of your ancestors, right? People that left.
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: people stepped forward and, put their business plans, their ideas on post-it notes, their prototypes, whatever it is, into a big coffin. And then, that coffin was actually burned, right? And people were in tears. Sometimes they were hugging each other. And it was a beautiful
Amy Edmondson: Wow.
Frederik: ritual that really kind of like helped to let go, right? Which is such an important thing because if you let go, you open up for the next, for the new,
Amy Edmondson: So important. Yeah, exactly.
Frederik: right? You say, like, okay, I'll take what I've learned and put that to work in another project or in a new project. So, how do these cultural rituals kind of like help us to celebrate failure, right? In a way that we all don't want to make mistakes, right? That's for sure. But when they
Amy Edmondson: Right. Right. No. No.
Frederik: happen, right, we can together, we can come together and celebrate that.
Amy Edmondson: We don't celebrate sloppy work, we don't celebrate failing to put in the effort, but we must celebrate disappointing results in new territory. We must, or else two bad things will happen. First, people won't take risks again, right? Because then let's just do safe stuff. Well, that's that's a road to nowhere. And two, it is emotionally hard and disappointing. So we need the sort of the social support of saying, Great learning. And these rituals, I mean, I'm I'm a fan of all of these kinds of rituals, but a ritual like the one you just described is a profound reframe. Instead of saying, we failed, we stink, we're saying we learned and we were smart enough and disciplined enough to stop it when intellectually it became clear it wasn't going to work. And because that's reducing the failure of throwing good money after bad. Like and most organizations don't do a good job of that, right? They will there there's a point in the project where people start to realize, this one's not going to make it. Now, fast forward two months, now we're gonna cancel it, right? Those two months were wasted resources, most most painfully, of human resources of people who could have been redeployed to the next great experiment.
Frederik: so I I want to share another ritual that that I find interesting for people probably to try out in their own organization, and that is the Penguin Award. I introduced that when working with a team that showed exactly what you described, they didn't take any risks anymore, right? They wanted to play it safe because they didn't want to make any big mistakes, right? And so I introduced the Penguin Award and the Penguin Award was inspired by a trip I took on a on a ship called the Entrepreneurship. That's a name I didn't come up with. That's a colleague of mine at Stanford. And so the entrepreneurship,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: we were taking 60 students from Stanford and 40 students from Chile to literally sail to the end of the world and teaching classes on prototyping, on entrepreneurship and so forth. But the the thing that happened is we saw penguins, right? And when you see penguins, it's just that you're in that awe, right? Like looking at that colony, and like you know, they're so cute and all these things. But we we noticed something, and that is there's always one penguin jumping first into the water. It's the courageous penguin, right? And the rest of the colony, they they're looking and like looking
Amy Edmondson: And then it Yeah.
Frederik: very carefully if that penguin comes back up again with either finding food or becoming food, right? And and so when that happens. You know, the rest of the penguin penguins jumps in into what into the water as well if you know they see like, there's some food, or they stand back if there's like a predator or something like that. So we took that from nature and applied it into the organization, said, like, okay, there is somebody in the team that takes a risk, right? And we need to reward that person. So we bought a two-dollar kind of like stuffed penguin animal, and we handed it out to the person that takes a small risk, right? Try something new. And That became kind of like a a bi-weekly ritual where we kind of like announced the Penguin Award. We, you know, invited that person and we mentioned like what they actually did at the beginning of a project, right? When they when they took the risk. And that became a thing because we saw that more and more people wanted to have that penguin award. So the risk taking was actually increasing. And so I think that's a little ritual that doesn't cost you anything, but that really
Amy Edmondson: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Frederik: helps people to feel recognized for taking risks, right? And getting that award. So
Amy Edmondson: That's sorry, that that's how you change the culture. Right? Those little it's you know, Ed Schein talked about culture as existing on three levels, right? Where artifacts, behaviors, and then shared basic assumptions. And you know, the artifacts aren't the most important thing, but they are important and they you know they help create that behavior of acknowledging a risk taker and then that starts to slowly reshape the shared basic assumptions about whether that's okay or not.
Frederik: And I think everybody in in organizations can think of those rituals, right? Think of those rituals around what is the value I want to activate, right? Like is it risk taking,
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: is it courage, is it innovation, creativity, all of those values that sound so big but can be translated into a small ritual and with an artifact as you described kind of like can be really made made visible as well. across the organization. The second ritual I wanna share. Yeah.
Amy Edmondson: A team. Yeah. Teamwork, kindness. I mean, you could imagine if there's so much emphasis nowadays on sort of individualism and everybody's trying trying so hard to do their own thing and get their own thing done. But if you start to reward I mean, if you create one of these to reward sort of these this little acts of support and kindness and helping others and, you know, it would increase the collaborative spirit, I imagine.
Frederik: Absolutely, yes. Another one that we worked on with the German soccer association. It's the biggest association in Germany with volunteers that all are very passionate about soccer, obviously, right?
Amy Edmondson: Mm-hmm.
Frederik: And so the organization was basically using a metaphor from soccer, which is an you're you're shooting an own goal, right? You are, you know, that happens, you know. might be not your intention, right? Exactly. That's the
Amy Edmondson: Oops. Yeah. All right.
Frederik: oops. But we translated that into a thing in Teams where whenever a mistake happens, they would actually write to their team an email and in the subject line it would state own goal, right? So they would explain like, hey, you know, sorry that happened. this is what I've learned from that failure, right? And it's such a good way of of just admitting that something happened because everybody People will probably eventually see that, you are responsible for that. But
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: if you admit it in the first place, I think that's a a a good way of building culture.
Amy Edmondson: It really is. And in my typology, I would label that an own goal is a basic failure, right? Or sometimes complex failure, but it's a basic failure in that you actually do know which goal is yours, right? And it's just it's a mistake, right? It's it's a classic mistake that you wish you hadn't made it, but we all do it. We, you know, we we all have have mistakes and basic failures. And so the quicker you own it. You know, name it, apologize for it, and say what you learn from it, the better off not only you are, but everyone else as well.
Frederik: So how can anyone bring psychological safety into maybe their own life, maybe even in their families, right? What's the smallest thing someone could try this week?
Amy Edmondson: I think the smallest thing I mean you can you can set out to uncertainty. It's we just are no longer in a world where our line of sight is long. So because of uncertainty, that means you're gonna be constantly taking small risks and and often being being wrong. So reminding yourself that that's okay is what I call framing or reframing the the reality, the situation, the work. but I sub I think the most positive act, behavior that you can engage in to change the psychological safety of others, and then I think by implication yours, is get in the habit of asking good questions. Now, this is what you're doing, you know, that's what you do in a in a podcast. You ask good questions. And it, I promise you, I couldn't even begin to just sit here quietly and not answer, right? When you've asked a question, it would be so awkward. So the same is true in your life. If you just resolve to ask one or two really good questions today of others, you will likely be surprised at positive benefits to you and to them. That you will learn something, that you will hear something that you hadn't seen coming. You will you will learn something new. You know, you will you will show interest in someone else's thoughts, which is which is an incredible gift. And a good question is one that is. open-ended but not, hey, how's it going? More like, what are you hearing from customers? Or tell me something fun you did this weekend or, you know, what whatever. It's a question that gives people space to respond, but and indicates that you are interested in what they have to say. and indicates that you are interested in what they have to say.
Frederik: so I keep trying my best to ask good questions.
Amy Edmondson: And you do, you're succeeding.
Frederik: great. So, Amy, your book says there are three kinds of failures, and you described two already the basic one and the intelligent one. The third one is complex, and I'm going to give you some real situations, some from my life, some that probably people can relate to. And you tell us which kind it is and what the person should do next. You ready?
Amy Edmondson: Okay. Yes.
Frederik: Great. So imagine you speak up in a meeting and it lands badly. The room goes quiet.
Amy Edmondson: That's an intelligent failure. You've never been in that exact moment before. presumably you're speaking up with, because people don't speak up, you know, peep people often worry about speaking up. So if you're speaking up, you've probably decided it matters. You have a hypothesis in your head that this could add value to the conversation. And oops, you were wrong. you, you know, you took a small risk in new territory with a goal and wasn't comfortable, but The failure was n no bigger than it than necessary to get you to that point. So keep it up.
Frederik: Right. Imagine you start something new, a language, you learn a language, an instrument, a habit, and quit after three weeks.
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: We've all been there, I guess.
Amy Edmondson: Well, at first glance that sounds like a basic failure to me because it's pretty clear that the program requires you to keep going to get better at that instrument or that language. but there's a possibility that it's complex because I don't know whether maybe you got a bad diagnosis or someone in your family did, or you lost your job, or you know, something else might have come in from left field that led to this cessation of the program. So I'll I'll I'll keep an open mind on that one. But from what you said, that were the whole story, then it would be a basic failure.
Frederik: The next one. You take your kid on a downhill bike trail. Neither of you has ridden. One of you goes over the handlebars.
Amy Edmondson: That's the end. yeah. ouch.
Frederik: That's the end. That that actually happened to me, yes.
Amy Edmondson: Well, let's let's be compassionate here and say that's a complex failure. it is new territory, so you know it's it's it's got it's the possibility that it's intelligent, but I'm gonna I'm going to hypothesize that there was a you know, a rock in the path or a twig or or or something, because you know, you know you both knew how to ride a bike. And yes, trails are are are new and going downhill is somewhat new, but not entirely new. We've all ridden a bike downhill. so s some some other contributing factors entered the story that gave rise to a failure that might not otherwise have happened.
Frederik: Imagine you leave a secure job to build something of your own, with no guarantee any of it works.
Amy Edmondson: Possibly an intel probably an intelligent failure, but with a a caveat. the third criterion is that you've done your homework, right? That that you have good reason, solid reason to believe this might work. and that would mean talking to other experts or doing market research or ensuring that you're at least you've got enough money in the bank to cover your rent if you know it doesn't go well the first time. So assuming you've passed that third criterion by doing your homework and there being good reason, despite the risk, that this is a valid and viable possibility in new territory, then yes, intelligent. But if you've just jumped into it, you know, okay, I have this wonderful job, well paying job, I don't really like it that much, and I'm just gonna leave and start something new and crazy, then I we've now entered back into basic territory.
Frederik: Last one, imagine your boss says, We fail fast here,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: and then punishes the first person who does.
Amy Edmondson: Well, that's a basic failure on the part of the boss. We don't know enough about the person, what what they did, but because they maybe they did something stupid, but e even so, and by I use the word stupid, you know, sloppily, so I apologize for that. But you know, something that just the quickest question to a colleague could have prevented, then we're not happy about that. But still the boss has to have what I call a productive response, which is Ooh, this is disappointing. Now let's let's let's take a look at it together and and let's figure out how not to have it happen again or let's figure out what we learned or what have you that makes it at least we get our money's worth from that little investment. But when a when a when a boss says you know, it's safe zone and fail fast and and then they punish the first failure, that's just a basic failure of leadership.
Frederik: I actually saw the situation happen in an organization I don't want to name here. but we all know. So absolutely
Amy Edmondson: It happens. Yeah.
Frederik: it happens, yes. So which kind of failure does a person need more of if they want a better future?
Amy Edmondson: That's an easy one. They need we we all need more intelligent failures. and that means more smart risks, right? More willingness to be that penguin, more more willingness to try new things that are in pursuit of a goal that may or may not get us that next step forward in goals we care about. And we want to be vigilant and thoughtful so that we avoid as many basic failures as possible. and vigilant and aware so that we are anticipating and also trying to avoid and mitigate as many complex failures as possible.
Frederik: So let's leave the teams for a moment and let's talk about how we as individuals can learn to fail well. So what have you failed at in the last twelve months, Amy?
Amy Edmondson: so many things. I I guess you you mentioned language learning. I've been trying to reignite French, which I studied in high school, and you know, had enough proficiency to place out of the language requirement in college, which by the way goes down as one of my basic failures, right? It was really Kind of one of the stupidest things I've I've done because that's when you're young and anyway. So the basic failure here, or the not the basic failure, the I think it's a complex failure. I'm not putting quite enough time into it is is basic, but I, you know, with with age, your brain is not as plastic as it once was. So it's no longer see a word once and you remember it. It's, you know, see a word ten times and now you you remember it. So I'm struggling. I'm struggling with that. but but more more work relevant. I have submitted two papers to top journals in the last twelve months that have been have been either rejected or or sent back for very serious revision to maybe then be rejected the next time. Who knows? So it's part of life, right?
Frederik: Thanks for sharing that. Absolutely. let's talk a little bit about Harvard Business School, right? I think everybody's intrigued to get maybe b an inside view of how maybe Harvard Business School has psychological safety. And is there a high degree of psychological safety? And is there a question you don't ask in your own faculty meetings, maybe?
Amy Edmondson: yeah. Well, first let me say, just like Google, there but I imagine for Google, there cannot there really isn't a valid answer to the question, does Harvard Business School have psychological safety? Because psychological safety is local. doesn't mean just, you know, you and your colleague or your your little team, but your department or, you know, your unit in in some way. So I can tell you that. my unit, the technology and operations management unit at Harvard Business School has very high psychological safety. It's a it's a particularly candid, sort of honest, you know, the the there's a great willingness to sort of be wrong, make fun of ourselves, and and not and and know for sure that our colleagues won't reject us for that. And maybe that's because we have, you know. bunch of engineers and data scientists and, you know, manufacturing types. There's just a kind of a comfort. Or maybe it's we've had good leadership over the years. So my unit, yes, and I can report with pretty good data on my unit, but I can't really tell you what's the psychological safety in the finance unit or the strategy unit. so so Harvard Business School, like I think every other large ish organization, is variegated in its psychological safety. And if I a faculty meeting is you know, maybe 160 people in a big room, a kind of auditorium like room, which almost, you know, th those kinds of rooms rarely have perfect psychological safety. but I think it's certainly an environment where people worry very much about how they're seen by others. And that leads to holding back. Yes, for sure.
Frederik: So let's imagine you realize you were wrong in front of a room. What happens in the ten seconds after? And what do you say to yourself?
Amy Edmondson: Well, y I mean the first few of those seconds is occupied by shame and self recrimination and and and this almost this really nonsensical idea that I shouldn't have done that, right? Which you know, only nonsensical in a purely logical sense, which was, well, the conditions were present where you did do that. So it happened, right? It happened. And then the hopefully the next five seconds are caught up with take a deep breath. challenge that initial sort of that in that 'cause that initial reaction is along the lines of this is the end of the world. It isn't. It's it's just maybe embarrassing or awkward, but life goes on. So it's it's that it's that discipline of catching yourself, you know, catching yourself and correcting your unhelpful thinking and trying to insert instead more helpful thinking. That's a how.
Frederik: Yes. have three kids and Mistakes happen, absolutely,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: right? as in my life, in their lives too. And what I'm observing as well is like we talk a lot about the next generation, right? We always, you know,
Amy Edmondson: Always.
Frederik: and I think it goes back to Aristotle probably. here we have the name again, like, you know, we always think about the next generation as something like, they we worry a lot about them, right? We worry that. What they are experiencing is not the right thing, what they're doing is not the right thing, and so forth. So, how can we show up for our own children and for the next generation as someone who treats failure differently? What is something that you recommend
Amy Edmondson: Yeah. Well the
Frederik: us to do?
Amy Edmondson: the funny thing is, going back to the very beginning of this conversation, that is what Buckminster Fuller did for me. I mean, he didn't do it for me, he did it and it affected me. he was so willing and cheerful about saying, I don't know, or I got that wrong, or oop, this one didn't work. You know, we we tried building a geodesic dome in the thirties with I wasn't there, obviously. out of Venetian blinds. Oops, it just collapsed. and with great relish he would tell that story. Bunch of college students around. It's like it's you know, it's it's humiliating, but it's also just if you if you can train yourself to be in that habit of of this is this is data, right? This this is not a catastrophe, this is data. and I you then I think increase the chances that you prevent a catastrophe. So for children, you know, for k for kids, for the next generation, whether they're your your employees or your children, what you have to resist doing is you know, either helicoptering or snow plowing, right? Snow plowing referring to kind of preparing the land ahead of them s the path ahead of them so carefully they don't even know they're not doing it themselves. vr and then taking away that opportunity for them to, you know, stumble and fall and learn and grow and and you know, that's a terrible thing to take away. Or helicoptering which is kind of micromanaging. And I you know, a as a parent myself, I r remember, I I know well that instinct to try you don't want your children to suffer from, you know, any the the discomfort of failing, getting something wrong. So you're you're you know, you're sort of tempted to get out ahead of that. And you have to back away and realize that part of their, part of their life, you know, part of their training, part of their ability to become good, capable human beings is experiencing tr trial and failure learning on their own. Otherwise they'll become so brittle that they won't be able to do anything really of of note well. So you have to kind of step back and you have to role model. that cheerful attitude about being wrong in new territory. You know, trying something, you know, I telling, sharing the stories where you failed, not just the stories where you succeeded. I tried out for the, you know, the basketball team in high school. And not only did I not get picked, I was the only person who didn't get picked. Like there were two lists put up on the on the on the gym wall, one of the people who got selected and one of the people who didn't. I'm the only name on, I mean, You can't, you know, sixteen years old or fifteen years old, it's just deeply painful. But it's also another door opens, of course, right? It's it's that wasn't gonna be my sport.
Frederik: I haven't heard about snow plowing, but I I I
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: love that. Yes, just that metaphor. And handing children a shovel, right? Like to to really
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: help them to dig that own path, right? And and learn
Amy Edmondson: Mm-hmm.
Frederik: that it's sometimes there's heavy snow right in front of you. Sometimes it's you already see a path ahead. But it's it's not that you create that path for them. I think that's a that's a good one, yes.
Amy Edmondson: Right, right. And not only create it but pretend you didn't. Right. So
Frederik: Mm.
Amy Edmondson: that they then they get the false belief that they just the paths are there. That paths paths exist.
Frederik: Yes.
Amy Edmondson: Versus shovels exist.
Frederik: So everything is moving fast right now, right? We hear that we hear that everywhere, right? AI most
Amy Edmondson: Mm. Mm.
Frederik: of all. new models released ev you know, every single day and It's it's just I think we're living in an incredible time. But let's talk about what that means for someone trying to shape their own future and how they can actually do that.
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: You mentioned something interesting, and that is learning how to ask better questions, right? And I think we can actually use AI to help us to learn how to ask
Amy Edmondson: That's true. Right.
Frederik: better questions. Not just asking questions to AI, but like asking AI, hey, ask me some questions, so that you know, we can have a a conversation about it. I think that's a a good one to take away
Amy Edmondson: I think so too.
Frederik: what and what would you say to a twenty five year old choosing safety right now because everything including AI is changing so fast?
Amy Edmondson: But I I don't think w you me but what do you mean by choosing safety?
Frederik: probably choosing safety is, you know, choosing something that they're either familiar with already not trying something new, right? Trying a a new job, a new maybe, maybe stop their studies and say like, okay, you know, I'll choose a different path right now.
Amy Edmondson: Right. So I I think it's I would I I i I would empathize. I I I think it is in fact tempting. Right. It's it's tempting to sort of stick with the tried and true, and it won't work over time. Right? It'll and here's the here's the problem you might confront, which it which, you know, ultimately is not what you want, which is it will look like it's working, right? It will look like it's working until it isn't, and then it's then it's too late. Right. So that by picking the safe or the tried and true, you will deprive yourself of the data you need to see the the the bigger picture and to kind of and to anticipate what might be coming next. Because the one thing we know for sure is that the pace of change is not going to slow down. so We then need to be in the learning business, right? We need to be in the risk-taking business. Again, smart risks. But that's it's never it's just not gonna work long term. It might look like it's working in the short term.
Frederik: So Amy, if you would give our listeners one experiment to run before the end of the week. Today is Friday, so before the week ends, so before Sunday, that would count as an intelligent failure and tell them what to write down afterward.
Amy Edmondson: Okay, so pick pick something you care about, you know, a goal, a a priority in your in your life. And now think of the experiment or the action or a thing you could do that's on that path that is hard and you're not sure it will work. But if it works, it will get you c clearly closer to where you're your your goal. And if it doesn't work, well it'll it'll be disappointing. I think most people can think of, you know, what's a what's a next thing you might try around some priority in your life? and then Commit to doing it, right? Commit to doing it sometime in the, you know, in the next few days, and then jot down everything you notice, right? Because it's not necessarily easy to know immediately did that work or not work. Sometimes it is, but just what do you notice? You know, and then that's data. And what and what do those data then what do those data teach you about what to try next, right? And it could be a complete about face, it could be a a small tweak, it could be a little pivot, but it's just data to help you keep going. Cause I'm assuming that goal or that priority is important to you.
Frederik: 10 years from now, Amy, and someone writes your biography in one paragraph. What does it say? Imagine your future self.
Amy Edmondson: Well, a paragraph can go on for a very long time, as you know, but I hope it says, I hope it says that I have mentored some extraordinary people, right people who have gone on to accomplish things in their own lives and in their own communities or organizations that I had nothing to do with, right? I mean directly, but that the capabilities that I helped them, you know, develop served them well in whatever roles they're in.
Frederik: A couple of years ago you wrote that my book was a collection of gems that could change your
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: thinking about tomorrow. Today you gave our listeners a few of your own. Thank you.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you.
Frederik: The future belongs to the people who can be wrong and keep going. Thank you, Amy, for what you do and who you are.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you for having me.
Frederik G. Pferdt: The future doesn't start tomorrow, it starts within. So don't wait for it. Practice it. One small thing today from within.
Frederik: Think of the last meeting where you had something to say and didn't. Nobody noticed. Nothing changed. That small silence is what my guest has spent her life studying. Amy Edmondson is a professor at Harvard Business School, ranked the number one management thinker in the world, and the person who gave us the phrase psychological safety. It sounds simple, it changed everything. Everything about how we understand teams. When Google discovered that it was the single most important factor in our best teams, her research landed on my desk. My work became translating it into Google's culture from a study into something leaders actually do on a Monday morning. Some of it worked, some of it didn't, which is exactly what we talk about today. Because her newest book, Right Kind of Wrong, Is about failure and not the kind we usually mean. One more thing. I'm standing here in a geodesic dome in the Redwoods.
Amy Edmondson: Yes.
Frederik: There there is no single beam holding it up. So no single failure can bring it down. Amy's very first job was working for the man who made that shape famous. And I don't think that's a coincidence. Today Amy brings the science. I bring the stories from inside Google and from some of the German national soccer, German National Soccer Association. You bring the thing you've been afraid to try as a listener. Because here is what I've learned. The future you want is on the other side of a few mistakes you haven't made yet. Not the careless kind, the kind you choose. And if you want to create a better future, You have to become someone who can be wrong and keep going. This hour is about how. That is The Future Is HOW let's practice it together. Amy, welcome.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you so much. What a marvelous introduction. And indeed I I am not as observant as I should be because I failed to notice that very dear, important structure, very dear in my history. And I think you're absolutely right, it's not a coincidence.
Frederik: It's not a coincidence. So let's talk a little bit about that. So I built this dome three months before the pandemic with a couple of friends. And it's supposed to be a guest house, right? and then the world closed, and for a whole year not a single guest arrived, right?
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: So I worked from here instead. It turned out to be the best place I've worked from here in a little forest. So nothing about the plan survived and something better showed up anyway. I think about that a lot and I think you have a name for it.
Amy Edmondson: Intelligent failure? Indeed. How wonderful. So intelligent
Frederik: Yes, absolutely. Right. So what is intelligent failure? What
Amy Edmondson: failure is essentially being wrong in new territory. and an intelligent failure is a disappointing result where the following four things are true. Number one, it's genuinely new. You couldn't have just asked a friend, how do you do this? You know, gotten the recipe. Number two, it's in pursuit of a goal. You're trying to get better at something, or trying to innovate, or trying to make progress in your life. And number three, you have good enough reason to believe it might work. It's a hypothesis that you've done your homework. And number four, the failure is not devastating. It's no, it might be emotionally devastating, but it's not financially or from a human safety point of view or reputational point of view, any larger. than necessary to bring the new information. Now that might sound complicated or too many criteria, but it's it's essentially being wrong in new territory. And nobody likes it. We would so much rather be right than wrong. And then we have this risk because of that, because of that programming, that we're reluctant to try new things. So we're reluctant, and then we don't do the things we need to do to make progress.
Frederik: Let's talk about the emotional side of that later, I think, in the podcast, which is very interesting. I wanna I wanna stay a little bit in that structure that you know Buckminster Fuller was actually
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: creating. So, what did Buckminster Fuller say to you that you still hear maybe in your head?
Amy Edmondson: And well, it's funny. one of the things he used to say was, the only mistake we make is thinking we shouldn't make mistakes, right? Which is so apropos to our conversation. But I think what I'm most left with, the sensibility I'm left with that I simply can't shake is systems thinking. Right? He was he was just a perennial systems thinker. If if if you do this to cause that, yes, that might be true, but what are the downstream consequences and where might that Where might that come back to create unintended harm over the longer terms? So he was he was always stepping back, stepping back and out and looking at the largest possible view of a situation, not in a way that crippled action, but in a way that made for more thoughtful action. So he he was kind of the original, I mean he wasn't the original systems thinker, but in my own Career, he was the person who clued me into the need for systems thinking while describing constantly what he called design science. He said that you know the science of design, that that our our beautiful brains, he said, are to be used to design things and experiences and systems that make life better for others going forward. That's that's why we're here, he said. And I can't shake that. mission, right? I may I have not done a very good job of living up to it, but I but it is the mission.
Frederik: So what can someone who listens learn from Buckminster Fuller when,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: you know, he has this mission to really design things that make life better, right? I think that's such a a wonderful, beautiful mission that probably everybody should have in their lives, right? Like do something that makes
Amy Edmondson: Absolutely.
Frederik: your life better and other people's lives better.
Amy Edmondson: And we call that purpose in companies today. And it's and indeed it matters. If your organization does not have, you know, a c a clear purpose for making things better, whether it's just the lives of customers or society or the world in some way, get out of the way. Right. It's your purpose cannot be simply making money, or eventually someone will replace you who has a a sort of more com more compelling purpose. but the the insight that I think we all know. But easily forget is the whole is more than the sum of the parts. He talked a lot about synergy, synergy being the property of whole systems that can't be predicted by even the most careful dissection of the parts. It's the relationships between parts that best account for the behavior of whole systems. And in organizations, that's often the relationships between people, but also the relationships between various, you know. policies and operating systems that that that need to sync up, right? That need to work together for things to go
Frederik: I want to start with the reason you're actually here. I don't know if you remember, but a year and a half ago I invited you and you sent me the most disciplined no I've ever received. You said, Not now, I'm at capacity, even for the things that sound like fun. I I just love that no, right?
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: It was such a such a good one. And I showed it to my wife and
Amy Edmondson: True.
Frederik: I showed it to others as well. so I waited. And when
Amy Edmondson: Thank you. Yeah.
Frederik: I came back this summer, I asked again. Differently, and you said, let's make it happen. So, two questions I have for you. Is saying no a way of failing well?
Amy Edmondson: Yes, I I I think so. I had not put it that way before, but but saying no, well, saying no is indeed a way of failing well because you're s you're it is a small failure. It's it was a failure on my part not to be able to do what you were wanting me to do. and yet by being willing to engage in that failure, I had at least a better hope of succeeding on the things I'd already committed. to doing, which, you know, n nothing takes zero energy or time. So and and time time is the is the the one thing we know for sure is finite. So so yes, it was a way of failing well, but it's also, and everybody knows this, saying no is part of how you say yes to the things you're you have decided are your priorities.
Frederik: So what made this one a yes? Why did you say yes this
Amy Edmondson: Well,
Frederik: time?
Amy Edmondson: first of all I'm I'm very passionate about the question of how, right? And and it I think we don't put enough attention into into the how, into into the actual processes through which the results we want are are built. And there's there's too much effort on, you know, single lever solutions, right? That that you know, just get the purpose right and the everything will be fine. or you know, pay people the right amount, they'll be happy in their job. Right. None none of those those single single item solutions never work. So I was in I was intrigued by the you know the the notion that we're really dig into the how. And I think the how is collective. The how is, you know, there's no how that individuals can just execute on their own. More and more the really important problems that we need to solve are need they need a team, right? They n they need people working together to solve them. They need a diversity of experiences and expertise to solve them. And then I think also I do have a very deep debt to Google for Project Aristotle, which I had nothing to do with, as you know, but the fact that one day, ten years ago, I woke up and took the New York Times off the front porch and saw that it was the annual work issue in the magazine of that publication. And I always, you know, I always enjoy the work issue because that's what I do. I study work. And lo and behold, there's this headline that really took me aback because it said what Google learned in its, in its quest to, to build the perfect team, right? And that and the it said there's sort of new insights about Teams that I just thought, this is my field, and now I've been scooped by Google, and this is really terrible. And anyway, you know the rest of the story, but the it was that in fact, with so such a systematic and thoughtful study led by your colleague, I guess, Julia Rozovsky. the data said, no, it's psychological safety. Right. Many you know, other factors matter too, but that was by far and away the most important. she wrote, and it was the underpinning, I loved that word that she used, the underpinning of the others, you know, the the clarity of goal and so on. And first of all, that was a a stunning surprise, but but but second and more relevant to the saying yes is that put my research on the map of I mean academics were following it and citing it, but Not that many practitioners, you know, some coaches, some, you know, wonderful people in HR, some thoughtful people around the world, many in healthcare, but suddenly everybody wanted to know more about it.
Frederik: So let's dive into the how a little bit more. how do innovative, successful, effective teams actually work? And what's the number one thing people get wrong about what makes a team successful and innovative, right?
Amy Edmondson: Right. I mean, I s I suppose the number one thing to get wrong is thinking that success looks smooth and predetermined. When you know, I think the the most successful teams probably look the messiest during the how. The the process, the conversations are likely to have the most debate and conflict. They're likely to be reporting the most you know, failures and problems and and false starts that didn't work out. So they will look like they're in trouble, but they will be in fact doing something you know, meaningful, important, which is discovering what works. So I think, psychological safety, I think the the reason why this emerges as an important attribute of successful teams is that it roughly means permission for candor. Right. It roughly means you feel able to do the hard work of telling the truth about, you know, the mistakes that you've made, the wacky ideas that you you want to share and worry, you know, in many situations you'd worry that you'd look you'd be embarrassed. you you can ask for help when you're not sure what to do. Right. So it's this it's this enormous directness and candor and you know, speaking up, but it's also a sense of mutual ownership for the work and the and the and the goals. So psychological safety is like taking your foot off the brakes, the the ordinary brakes that hamper effective teams. And, you know, maybe that sense of psychological ownership or the motivation or the belief that what we're doing matters, that's the fuel. that's driving the car and you need both. You need that fuel and you need your foot off the brakes.
Frederik: I love that metaphor of we need the fuel and the foot off the brakes, right? I saw this at Google over and over again. the leader understood everything and still couldn't say, I don't know, in front of the team, right? So what words would you give that leader for tomorrow's meeting? Because that's something
Amy Edmondson: Yeah. Yeah.
Frederik: where in my work I needed to, you know, help these leaders to really kind of like step up and like, as you said, like, you know, take the foot off the off the off the brakes, right?
Amy Edmondson: Funniest thing about that, and I found it to be true, and and I we we can probably recognize it in ourselves as well, it's hard to say I don't know. There's so many cultural pressures and pressures from your upbringing and schooling that lead you to believe in a kind of a deep way that saying I don't know makes you look weak or stupid. When think about the people who do say it, they actually look confident and honest and likable. And especially today, maybe if it was a hundred years ago when most people could know just about everything, but but in today's hyper-specialized world, If you're not saying I don't know several times a day, you're not paying attention, right? Because clearly you don't know. You can't possibly have heard the latest thing on this, that, or the other story or the other, scientific discovery or You know, you name it. So we should be, and when we say I don't know, it unlocks the room, it's refreshing, you're building trust because it's so clearly honest and so clearly legitimate. Of course you don't know. and so I mean I I it's it's disarming when leaders realize that they can answer a question, I don't know. let's see what we can do to find out. And then suddenly Like there's more energy in the room as a result of that simple response.
Frederik: And so going even beyond, I don't know, admitting that something didn't work out, right? I think is something
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: not a lot of people can do, especially if you're in a leadership position. So at Google X, we created a day called the Day of the Dead, where we celebrated, you know, things that actually died, you know, in a in that metaphorical way of like that didn't work out, that project, that initiative, that technology, whatever, whatever it was. And it was important to celebrate it together like the the day of the dead where you let go of your ancestors, right? People that left.
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: people stepped forward and, put their business plans, their ideas on post-it notes, their prototypes, whatever it is, into a big coffin. And then, that coffin was actually burned, right? And people were in tears. Sometimes they were hugging each other. And it was a beautiful
Amy Edmondson: Wow.
Frederik: ritual that really kind of like helped to let go, right? Which is such an important thing because if you let go, you open up for the next, for the new,
Amy Edmondson: So important. Yeah, exactly.
Frederik: right? You say, like, okay, I'll take what I've learned and put that to work in another project or in a new project. So, how do these cultural rituals kind of like help us to celebrate failure, right? In a way that we all don't want to make mistakes, right? That's for sure. But when they
Amy Edmondson: Right. Right. No. No.
Frederik: happen, right, we can together, we can come together and celebrate that.
Amy Edmondson: We don't celebrate sloppy work, we don't celebrate failing to put in the effort, but we must celebrate disappointing results in new territory. We must, or else two bad things will happen. First, people won't take risks again, right? Because then let's just do safe stuff. Well, that's that's a road to nowhere. And two, it is emotionally hard and disappointing. So we need the sort of the social support of saying, Great learning. And these rituals, I mean, I'm I'm a fan of all of these kinds of rituals, but a ritual like the one you just described is a profound reframe. Instead of saying, we failed, we stink, we're saying we learned and we were smart enough and disciplined enough to stop it when intellectually it became clear it wasn't going to work. And because that's reducing the failure of throwing good money after bad. Like and most organizations don't do a good job of that, right? They will there there's a point in the project where people start to realize, this one's not going to make it. Now, fast forward two months, now we're gonna cancel it, right? Those two months were wasted resources, most most painfully, of human resources of people who could have been redeployed to the next great experiment.
Frederik: so I I want to share another ritual that that I find interesting for people probably to try out in their own organization, and that is the Penguin Award. I introduced that when working with a team that showed exactly what you described, they didn't take any risks anymore, right? They wanted to play it safe because they didn't want to make any big mistakes, right? And so I introduced the Penguin Award and the Penguin Award was inspired by a trip I took on a on a ship called the Entrepreneurship. That's a name I didn't come up with. That's a colleague of mine at Stanford. And so the entrepreneurship,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: we were taking 60 students from Stanford and 40 students from Chile to literally sail to the end of the world and teaching classes on prototyping, on entrepreneurship and so forth. But the the thing that happened is we saw penguins, right? And when you see penguins, it's just that you're in that awe, right? Like looking at that colony, and like you know, they're so cute and all these things. But we we noticed something, and that is there's always one penguin jumping first into the water. It's the courageous penguin, right? And the rest of the colony, they they're looking and like looking
Amy Edmondson: And then it Yeah.
Frederik: very carefully if that penguin comes back up again with either finding food or becoming food, right? And and so when that happens. You know, the rest of the penguin penguins jumps in into what into the water as well if you know they see like, there's some food, or they stand back if there's like a predator or something like that. So we took that from nature and applied it into the organization, said, like, okay, there is somebody in the team that takes a risk, right? And we need to reward that person. So we bought a two-dollar kind of like stuffed penguin animal, and we handed it out to the person that takes a small risk, right? Try something new. And That became kind of like a a bi-weekly ritual where we kind of like announced the Penguin Award. We, you know, invited that person and we mentioned like what they actually did at the beginning of a project, right? When they when they took the risk. And that became a thing because we saw that more and more people wanted to have that penguin award. So the risk taking was actually increasing. And so I think that's a little ritual that doesn't cost you anything, but that really
Amy Edmondson: Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Frederik: helps people to feel recognized for taking risks, right? And getting that award. So
Amy Edmondson: That's sorry, that that's how you change the culture. Right? Those little it's you know, Ed Schein talked about culture as existing on three levels, right? Where artifacts, behaviors, and then shared basic assumptions. And you know, the artifacts aren't the most important thing, but they are important and they you know they help create that behavior of acknowledging a risk taker and then that starts to slowly reshape the shared basic assumptions about whether that's okay or not.
Frederik: And I think everybody in in organizations can think of those rituals, right? Think of those rituals around what is the value I want to activate, right? Like is it risk taking,
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: is it courage, is it innovation, creativity, all of those values that sound so big but can be translated into a small ritual and with an artifact as you described kind of like can be really made made visible as well. across the organization. The second ritual I wanna share. Yeah.
Amy Edmondson: A team. Yeah. Teamwork, kindness. I mean, you could imagine if there's so much emphasis nowadays on sort of individualism and everybody's trying trying so hard to do their own thing and get their own thing done. But if you start to reward I mean, if you create one of these to reward sort of these this little acts of support and kindness and helping others and, you know, it would increase the collaborative spirit, I imagine.
Frederik: Absolutely, yes. Another one that we worked on with the German soccer association. It's the biggest association in Germany with volunteers that all are very passionate about soccer, obviously, right?
Amy Edmondson: Mm-hmm.
Frederik: And so the organization was basically using a metaphor from soccer, which is an you're you're shooting an own goal, right? You are, you know, that happens, you know. might be not your intention, right? Exactly. That's the
Amy Edmondson: Oops. Yeah. All right.
Frederik: oops. But we translated that into a thing in Teams where whenever a mistake happens, they would actually write to their team an email and in the subject line it would state own goal, right? So they would explain like, hey, you know, sorry that happened. this is what I've learned from that failure, right? And it's such a good way of of just admitting that something happened because everybody People will probably eventually see that, you are responsible for that. But
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: if you admit it in the first place, I think that's a a a good way of building culture.
Amy Edmondson: It really is. And in my typology, I would label that an own goal is a basic failure, right? Or sometimes complex failure, but it's a basic failure in that you actually do know which goal is yours, right? And it's just it's a mistake, right? It's it's a classic mistake that you wish you hadn't made it, but we all do it. We, you know, we we all have have mistakes and basic failures. And so the quicker you own it. You know, name it, apologize for it, and say what you learn from it, the better off not only you are, but everyone else as well.
Frederik: So how can anyone bring psychological safety into maybe their own life, maybe even in their families, right? What's the smallest thing someone could try this week?
Amy Edmondson: I think the smallest thing I mean you can you can set out to uncertainty. It's we just are no longer in a world where our line of sight is long. So because of uncertainty, that means you're gonna be constantly taking small risks and and often being being wrong. So reminding yourself that that's okay is what I call framing or reframing the the reality, the situation, the work. but I sub I think the most positive act, behavior that you can engage in to change the psychological safety of others, and then I think by implication yours, is get in the habit of asking good questions. Now, this is what you're doing, you know, that's what you do in a in a podcast. You ask good questions. And it, I promise you, I couldn't even begin to just sit here quietly and not answer, right? When you've asked a question, it would be so awkward. So the same is true in your life. If you just resolve to ask one or two really good questions today of others, you will likely be surprised at positive benefits to you and to them. That you will learn something, that you will hear something that you hadn't seen coming. You will you will learn something new. You know, you will you will show interest in someone else's thoughts, which is which is an incredible gift. And a good question is one that is. open-ended but not, hey, how's it going? More like, what are you hearing from customers? Or tell me something fun you did this weekend or, you know, what whatever. It's a question that gives people space to respond, but and indicates that you are interested in what they have to say. and indicates that you are interested in what they have to say.
Frederik: so I keep trying my best to ask good questions.
Amy Edmondson: And you do, you're succeeding.
Frederik: great. So, Amy, your book says there are three kinds of failures, and you described two already the basic one and the intelligent one. The third one is complex, and I'm going to give you some real situations, some from my life, some that probably people can relate to. And you tell us which kind it is and what the person should do next. You ready?
Amy Edmondson: Okay. Yes.
Frederik: Great. So imagine you speak up in a meeting and it lands badly. The room goes quiet.
Amy Edmondson: That's an intelligent failure. You've never been in that exact moment before. presumably you're speaking up with, because people don't speak up, you know, peep people often worry about speaking up. So if you're speaking up, you've probably decided it matters. You have a hypothesis in your head that this could add value to the conversation. And oops, you were wrong. you, you know, you took a small risk in new territory with a goal and wasn't comfortable, but The failure was n no bigger than it than necessary to get you to that point. So keep it up.
Frederik: Right. Imagine you start something new, a language, you learn a language, an instrument, a habit, and quit after three weeks.
Amy Edmondson: Ha ha ha.
Frederik: We've all been there, I guess.
Amy Edmondson: Well, at first glance that sounds like a basic failure to me because it's pretty clear that the program requires you to keep going to get better at that instrument or that language. but there's a possibility that it's complex because I don't know whether maybe you got a bad diagnosis or someone in your family did, or you lost your job, or you know, something else might have come in from left field that led to this cessation of the program. So I'll I'll I'll keep an open mind on that one. But from what you said, that were the whole story, then it would be a basic failure.
Frederik: The next one. You take your kid on a downhill bike trail. Neither of you has ridden. One of you goes over the handlebars.
Amy Edmondson: That's the end. yeah. ouch.
Frederik: That's the end. That that actually happened to me, yes.
Amy Edmondson: Well, let's let's be compassionate here and say that's a complex failure. it is new territory, so you know it's it's it's got it's the possibility that it's intelligent, but I'm gonna I'm going to hypothesize that there was a you know, a rock in the path or a twig or or or something, because you know, you know you both knew how to ride a bike. And yes, trails are are are new and going downhill is somewhat new, but not entirely new. We've all ridden a bike downhill. so s some some other contributing factors entered the story that gave rise to a failure that might not otherwise have happened.
Frederik: Imagine you leave a secure job to build something of your own, with no guarantee any of it works.
Amy Edmondson: Possibly an intel probably an intelligent failure, but with a a caveat. the third criterion is that you've done your homework, right? That that you have good reason, solid reason to believe this might work. and that would mean talking to other experts or doing market research or ensuring that you're at least you've got enough money in the bank to cover your rent if you know it doesn't go well the first time. So assuming you've passed that third criterion by doing your homework and there being good reason, despite the risk, that this is a valid and viable possibility in new territory, then yes, intelligent. But if you've just jumped into it, you know, okay, I have this wonderful job, well paying job, I don't really like it that much, and I'm just gonna leave and start something new and crazy, then I we've now entered back into basic territory.
Frederik: Last one, imagine your boss says, We fail fast here,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: and then punishes the first person who does.
Amy Edmondson: Well, that's a basic failure on the part of the boss. We don't know enough about the person, what what they did, but because they maybe they did something stupid, but e even so, and by I use the word stupid, you know, sloppily, so I apologize for that. But you know, something that just the quickest question to a colleague could have prevented, then we're not happy about that. But still the boss has to have what I call a productive response, which is Ooh, this is disappointing. Now let's let's let's take a look at it together and and let's figure out how not to have it happen again or let's figure out what we learned or what have you that makes it at least we get our money's worth from that little investment. But when a when a when a boss says you know, it's safe zone and fail fast and and then they punish the first failure, that's just a basic failure of leadership.
Frederik: I actually saw the situation happen in an organization I don't want to name here. but we all know. So absolutely
Amy Edmondson: It happens. Yeah.
Frederik: it happens, yes. So which kind of failure does a person need more of if they want a better future?
Amy Edmondson: That's an easy one. They need we we all need more intelligent failures. and that means more smart risks, right? More willingness to be that penguin, more more willingness to try new things that are in pursuit of a goal that may or may not get us that next step forward in goals we care about. And we want to be vigilant and thoughtful so that we avoid as many basic failures as possible. and vigilant and aware so that we are anticipating and also trying to avoid and mitigate as many complex failures as possible.
Frederik: So let's leave the teams for a moment and let's talk about how we as individuals can learn to fail well. So what have you failed at in the last twelve months, Amy?
Amy Edmondson: so many things. I I guess you you mentioned language learning. I've been trying to reignite French, which I studied in high school, and you know, had enough proficiency to place out of the language requirement in college, which by the way goes down as one of my basic failures, right? It was really Kind of one of the stupidest things I've I've done because that's when you're young and anyway. So the basic failure here, or the not the basic failure, the I think it's a complex failure. I'm not putting quite enough time into it is is basic, but I, you know, with with age, your brain is not as plastic as it once was. So it's no longer see a word once and you remember it. It's, you know, see a word ten times and now you you remember it. So I'm struggling. I'm struggling with that. but but more more work relevant. I have submitted two papers to top journals in the last twelve months that have been have been either rejected or or sent back for very serious revision to maybe then be rejected the next time. Who knows? So it's part of life, right?
Frederik: Thanks for sharing that. Absolutely. let's talk a little bit about Harvard Business School, right? I think everybody's intrigued to get maybe b an inside view of how maybe Harvard Business School has psychological safety. And is there a high degree of psychological safety? And is there a question you don't ask in your own faculty meetings, maybe?
Amy Edmondson: yeah. Well, first let me say, just like Google, there but I imagine for Google, there cannot there really isn't a valid answer to the question, does Harvard Business School have psychological safety? Because psychological safety is local. doesn't mean just, you know, you and your colleague or your your little team, but your department or, you know, your unit in in some way. So I can tell you that. my unit, the technology and operations management unit at Harvard Business School has very high psychological safety. It's a it's a particularly candid, sort of honest, you know, the the there's a great willingness to sort of be wrong, make fun of ourselves, and and not and and know for sure that our colleagues won't reject us for that. And maybe that's because we have, you know. bunch of engineers and data scientists and, you know, manufacturing types. There's just a kind of a comfort. Or maybe it's we've had good leadership over the years. So my unit, yes, and I can report with pretty good data on my unit, but I can't really tell you what's the psychological safety in the finance unit or the strategy unit. so so Harvard Business School, like I think every other large ish organization, is variegated in its psychological safety. And if I a faculty meeting is you know, maybe 160 people in a big room, a kind of auditorium like room, which almost, you know, th those kinds of rooms rarely have perfect psychological safety. but I think it's certainly an environment where people worry very much about how they're seen by others. And that leads to holding back. Yes, for sure.
Frederik: So let's imagine you realize you were wrong in front of a room. What happens in the ten seconds after? And what do you say to yourself?
Amy Edmondson: Well, y I mean the first few of those seconds is occupied by shame and self recrimination and and and this almost this really nonsensical idea that I shouldn't have done that, right? Which you know, only nonsensical in a purely logical sense, which was, well, the conditions were present where you did do that. So it happened, right? It happened. And then the hopefully the next five seconds are caught up with take a deep breath. challenge that initial sort of that in that 'cause that initial reaction is along the lines of this is the end of the world. It isn't. It's it's just maybe embarrassing or awkward, but life goes on. So it's it's that it's that discipline of catching yourself, you know, catching yourself and correcting your unhelpful thinking and trying to insert instead more helpful thinking. That's a how.
Frederik: Yes. have three kids and Mistakes happen, absolutely,
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: right? as in my life, in their lives too. And what I'm observing as well is like we talk a lot about the next generation, right? We always, you know,
Amy Edmondson: Always.
Frederik: and I think it goes back to Aristotle probably. here we have the name again, like, you know, we always think about the next generation as something like, they we worry a lot about them, right? We worry that. What they are experiencing is not the right thing, what they're doing is not the right thing, and so forth. So, how can we show up for our own children and for the next generation as someone who treats failure differently? What is something that you recommend
Amy Edmondson: Yeah. Well the
Frederik: us to do?
Amy Edmondson: the funny thing is, going back to the very beginning of this conversation, that is what Buckminster Fuller did for me. I mean, he didn't do it for me, he did it and it affected me. he was so willing and cheerful about saying, I don't know, or I got that wrong, or oop, this one didn't work. You know, we we tried building a geodesic dome in the thirties with I wasn't there, obviously. out of Venetian blinds. Oops, it just collapsed. and with great relish he would tell that story. Bunch of college students around. It's like it's you know, it's it's humiliating, but it's also just if you if you can train yourself to be in that habit of of this is this is data, right? This this is not a catastrophe, this is data. and I you then I think increase the chances that you prevent a catastrophe. So for children, you know, for k for kids, for the next generation, whether they're your your employees or your children, what you have to resist doing is you know, either helicoptering or snow plowing, right? Snow plowing referring to kind of preparing the land ahead of them s the path ahead of them so carefully they don't even know they're not doing it themselves. vr and then taking away that opportunity for them to, you know, stumble and fall and learn and grow and and you know, that's a terrible thing to take away. Or helicoptering which is kind of micromanaging. And I you know, a as a parent myself, I r remember, I I know well that instinct to try you don't want your children to suffer from, you know, any the the discomfort of failing, getting something wrong. So you're you're you know, you're sort of tempted to get out ahead of that. And you have to back away and realize that part of their, part of their life, you know, part of their training, part of their ability to become good, capable human beings is experiencing tr trial and failure learning on their own. Otherwise they'll become so brittle that they won't be able to do anything really of of note well. So you have to kind of step back and you have to role model. that cheerful attitude about being wrong in new territory. You know, trying something, you know, I telling, sharing the stories where you failed, not just the stories where you succeeded. I tried out for the, you know, the basketball team in high school. And not only did I not get picked, I was the only person who didn't get picked. Like there were two lists put up on the on the on the gym wall, one of the people who got selected and one of the people who didn't. I'm the only name on, I mean, You can't, you know, sixteen years old or fifteen years old, it's just deeply painful. But it's also another door opens, of course, right? It's it's that wasn't gonna be my sport.
Frederik: I haven't heard about snow plowing, but I I I
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: love that. Yes, just that metaphor. And handing children a shovel, right? Like to to really
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: help them to dig that own path, right? And and learn
Amy Edmondson: Mm-hmm.
Frederik: that it's sometimes there's heavy snow right in front of you. Sometimes it's you already see a path ahead. But it's it's not that you create that path for them. I think that's a that's a good one, yes.
Amy Edmondson: Right, right. And not only create it but pretend you didn't. Right. So
Frederik: Mm.
Amy Edmondson: that they then they get the false belief that they just the paths are there. That paths paths exist.
Frederik: Yes.
Amy Edmondson: Versus shovels exist.
Frederik: So everything is moving fast right now, right? We hear that we hear that everywhere, right? AI most
Amy Edmondson: Mm. Mm.
Frederik: of all. new models released ev you know, every single day and It's it's just I think we're living in an incredible time. But let's talk about what that means for someone trying to shape their own future and how they can actually do that.
Amy Edmondson: Right.
Frederik: You mentioned something interesting, and that is learning how to ask better questions, right? And I think we can actually use AI to help us to learn how to ask
Amy Edmondson: That's true. Right.
Frederik: better questions. Not just asking questions to AI, but like asking AI, hey, ask me some questions, so that you know, we can have a a conversation about it. I think that's a a good one to take away
Amy Edmondson: I think so too.
Frederik: what and what would you say to a twenty five year old choosing safety right now because everything including AI is changing so fast?
Amy Edmondson: But I I don't think w you me but what do you mean by choosing safety?
Frederik: probably choosing safety is, you know, choosing something that they're either familiar with already not trying something new, right? Trying a a new job, a new maybe, maybe stop their studies and say like, okay, you know, I'll choose a different path right now.
Amy Edmondson: Right. So I I think it's I would I I i I would empathize. I I I think it is in fact tempting. Right. It's it's tempting to sort of stick with the tried and true, and it won't work over time. Right? It'll and here's the here's the problem you might confront, which it which, you know, ultimately is not what you want, which is it will look like it's working, right? It will look like it's working until it isn't, and then it's then it's too late. Right. So that by picking the safe or the tried and true, you will deprive yourself of the data you need to see the the the bigger picture and to kind of and to anticipate what might be coming next. Because the one thing we know for sure is that the pace of change is not going to slow down. so We then need to be in the learning business, right? We need to be in the risk-taking business. Again, smart risks. But that's it's never it's just not gonna work long term. It might look like it's working in the short term.
Frederik: So Amy, if you would give our listeners one experiment to run before the end of the week. Today is Friday, so before the week ends, so before Sunday, that would count as an intelligent failure and tell them what to write down afterward.
Amy Edmondson: Okay, so pick pick something you care about, you know, a goal, a a priority in your in your life. And now think of the experiment or the action or a thing you could do that's on that path that is hard and you're not sure it will work. But if it works, it will get you c clearly closer to where you're your your goal. And if it doesn't work, well it'll it'll be disappointing. I think most people can think of, you know, what's a what's a next thing you might try around some priority in your life? and then Commit to doing it, right? Commit to doing it sometime in the, you know, in the next few days, and then jot down everything you notice, right? Because it's not necessarily easy to know immediately did that work or not work. Sometimes it is, but just what do you notice? You know, and then that's data. And what and what do those data then what do those data teach you about what to try next, right? And it could be a complete about face, it could be a a small tweak, it could be a little pivot, but it's just data to help you keep going. Cause I'm assuming that goal or that priority is important to you.
Frederik: 10 years from now, Amy, and someone writes your biography in one paragraph. What does it say? Imagine your future self.
Amy Edmondson: Well, a paragraph can go on for a very long time, as you know, but I hope it says, I hope it says that I have mentored some extraordinary people, right people who have gone on to accomplish things in their own lives and in their own communities or organizations that I had nothing to do with, right? I mean directly, but that the capabilities that I helped them, you know, develop served them well in whatever roles they're in.
Frederik: A couple of years ago you wrote that my book was a collection of gems that could change your
Amy Edmondson: Yeah.
Frederik: thinking about tomorrow. Today you gave our listeners a few of your own. Thank you.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you.
Frederik: The future belongs to the people who can be wrong and keep going. Thank you, Amy, for what you do and who you are.
Amy Edmondson: Thank you for having me.
Frederik G. Pferdt: The future doesn't start tomorrow, it starts within. So don't wait for it. Practice it. One small thing today from within.
