Jim Bennett in X-ile

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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with Ian Wilkes, but you probably won't hear from him for a few minutes because we record these episodes in different countries.
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Ian's in Canada, I'm in Utah, and for whatever reason, the recording software we use glitched out at the beginning, so the first few minutes were lost.
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So I'm going to try to reproduce those first few minutes, and I will try to digitally, seamlessly segue into the bulk of the material that is still recorded, and you'll hear Ian jump in at that point.
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But here at the outset, it's me re-recording some of the stuff that I had said earlier, and we'll get into the Rest of the episode as we go.
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The episode is titled Jim Bennett in Exile, and that's a very clever pun because I'm talking about my departure from the social media platform known as X.
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And it was previously known as Twitter.
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I'll probably call it Twitter until the day I die, but right now everybody likes to call it X.
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Elon Musk has bought it, renamed it, and we sort of have to live with that.
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And I think it was Sunday night that I deactivated my account.
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And my reason for deactivating the account is that I had been swarmed by a series of digital bullies, most of whom I don't know, but who decided that they wanted to do everything they can to make my life miserable.
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And I decided I really don't have time for that anymore.
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I had a teacher who once said, I don't need to do this.
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I'm too old, too proud, and too rich.
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And I'm probably too old, too proud.
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I'm not particularly rich.
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But I've been startled by just how much more pleasant my life has been without jumping into that digital cesspool for the last few days.
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But to give you some background as to what led to that decision, I deactivated the account.
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I ended up reactivating it in the middle of the night and writing a lengthy thread that I'm going to sort of paraphrase here.
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And I began by talking about my childhood, talking about growing up in Southern California.
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A lot of people assume I grew up in Utah.
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I did not.
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I grew up in Southern California.
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I was a weird, skinny kid who was bad at sports, and I had a big mouth, and I shot it off every chance I got.
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And I also was incapable of getting a suntan.
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Growing up in Southern California, all of that makes you a target for bullies.
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And I don't tell you this to try to garner sympathy, per se.
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I actually had a delightful childhood overall.
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I had a delightful adolescence.
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But it was marked by bullies, many of whom were not afraid to get violent.
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every once in a while and try to ambush me as I walked home from school.
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I found myself trying to find many different routes to get home from school, and that was successful some of the time, but not all of the time.
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There were only so many ways to get from school to home.
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But that whole experience made me very sensitive to the experience of bullying.
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I have no patience for it.
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I have no tolerance for it.
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And I sort of refer to this whole phenomenon as bullying.
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something like the Korahor template.
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Korahor, as you may recall, is a character in the Book of Alma who comes and he's described as an antichrist.
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He comes and preaches that there will be no Christ and then finally admits that the devil appeared to him as an angel and he always knew that there was a Christ and knew that there was a God but had decided to preach against him anyway.
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and he's cursed, he's not allowed to speak, and he ends up getting trampled to death.
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And the moral of the story, kids, is you leave the church, you deny the Christ, and that's the kind of ending that you can expect to your life.
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Everybody secretly knows the church is true, but they've somehow chosen to turn to the dark side of the force anyway.
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And that's kind of the way a lot of members, at least that's the way I thought.
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I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, but that's kind of how I thought about it.
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And that experience going to ex-Mormon Reddit was like, huh, maybe I ought to be talking to some of these people.
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Maybe I ought to be listening to some of these people.
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And that experience led to my going on Bill Reel's show.
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Bill Reel and I had 14 hours of conversations, and I'm still kind of frustrated that he saw that as a debate, and I didn't.
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But then I went on John DeLinn's podcast, and we did 14, 15, 16 hours.
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It was endless.
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And I have all these people that say, yeah, I listened to all of your podcasts with John DeLinn.
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I'm like, you have?
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Why?
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I haven't listened to all of my podcasts with John DeLinn.
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But What that did, after I wrote my CES letter reply, I got flooded with messages from members of the church who said they were grateful that I'd helped them stay in the church.
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My CES letter reply was sort of aimed at people, not people who have left and trying to convince them to come back, but rather people who read all of the stuff and learn all the stuff about the church, have a faith crisis, and are trying to find some way desperately to stay.
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You know, that was my experience when I read The Godmakers as an 18-year-old.
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It was, ugh, I still want to stay.
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How do I stay?
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Knowing all of this damaging information.
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And so that was who my CES letter reply was geared to, and the response came overwhelmingly from members of the church.
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But when I started talking to John Dillon, started not talking to Bill Reel, started engaging with church critics...
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I started getting more responses from people who had left the church than people who were in the church.
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And the responses were along the lines of, hi, Jim, I listened to everything you said.
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You didn't convince me to come back to church.
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You didn't convince me the church was true.
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What you convinced me of was that it's possible to stay in the church and be a person of integrity.
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And you've helped me better understand my family, my friends, my spouse, who are all still in.
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And I'm very grateful for that.
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And those messages were so much more kind of personal than the messages I would get from faithful members who thanked me for helping them stay in because that was more of a, oh yeah, I read it and I thought you won.
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You know, you went up against the Exmos and you won.
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Congratulations, Jim.
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But these personal messages from people who left have sort of led me into where I think we are with this podcast.
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I think this is a space that nobody else is exploring.
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You know, you have the people who've left the church who are angry and they've been shunned.
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They've been kicked aside and nobody's talking to them.
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And they talk to themselves.
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and create a sort of echo chamber but it's not just an echo chamber it's also sort of a support group it's oh yeah i went through the church and i had this terrible trauma and you go into these ex-mormon spaces and that's those are the discussions you find and a lot of them are really heartbreaking and they're not the kind of corahore things that church members are out there they're um they're just people dealing with pain dealing with trauma and And in the church, you have these people that are demonizing the people who have left and aren't willing to talk to them and sometimes are afraid to talk to them.
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I mean, they're afraid that, okay, if they left, what is it that...
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I think the reason no one's asked you, Ian, why you've left is they're afraid that they might agree with your answer.
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Nobody wants...
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Nobody's willing to sort of put themselves out there
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and do that.
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Which is,
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you know, it's not massive, but it's not nothing either.
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And a lot of the people I interact with on Twitter are former members of the church, including some that I know in real life.
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I reconnected with some people that I grew up with who have left the church, and I found them on Twitter, and it's kind of fun.
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But what has happened as a result of me doing that is that I have kicked up a great deal of venom and vitriol, and it is all coming from members of the church.
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None of it is coming from former members.
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Former members who don't agree with me.
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And I've had some discussions, you know, about church things and church truth claims and stuff where I've been defending the church.
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And the former members that engage with me that way usually do so very kindly.
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It's usually, well, no, I can't go with you with that.
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And I can't believe that.
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But we end the discussion and we're both still friends.
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The members of the church come after me.
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And it's, you are a progmo, which is short for progressive Mormon.
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It's an epithet, the exmo and progmo are epithets that are used an awful lot.
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They're furious that I don't hate LGBTQ people.
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I have never on Twitter called for, I have never tried to call the church to repentance.
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I've never condemned the church for its stand, but I have said, I hope for greater light and knowledge.
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I hope for greater inclusion.
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And even just saying that is beyond the pale for some of these people.
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And so I would just consistently get hate messages.
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People would just sort of jump into any discussion where I was and just, you're the worst and you're all going to hell and you're terrible and it's awful.
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And so I just started blocking all these people.
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And it made my Twitter experience a whole lot more pleasant.
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All right.
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So I have talked about this account on this podcast, but I've never named it.
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And I'm going to name it right now.
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There is an account on Twitter called Exmos and Progmos posting their L's online.
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L meaning losses, I guess.
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And they spend all day, every day, combing Twitter, trying to find things.
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And it used to be that they would post John Dillon and Bill Reel and former members of the church.
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And they don't really do that anymore.
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They post primarily things from...
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So their profile picture, you'll appreciate this, Ian.
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We've tried to get...
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How do you pronounce her?
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Is it Jacinda Adern?
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Jacinda Adern.
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Adern?
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Adern, yes.
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That's the way I pronounce it.
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Yeah, they...
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former PM of New Zealand.
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Former Prime Minister of New Zealand, who's also a former member of the church.
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And I never heard her speak about the church.
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I know that she met with President Nelson when she was Prime Minister of New Zealand.
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And I think that was a positive meeting.
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I've never heard her say anything about the church.
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I don't, you know.
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But anyway, this account, the shorthand for it is Exmo Cringe.
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This account's profile picture is Jacinda Ardern with a Hitler mustache.
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It's got this little Hitler mustache and also has a Nazi uniform.
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And that enough, I think, should be enough to get this account banned.
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I mean, it's a hate account.
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All it does is hate.
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And it combs the internet, combs for anything that a member of the church says that they consider to be heretical or apostate or awful.
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And for instance, I'll give you an example.
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Every Sunday, music and the spoken word with the Tabernacle Choir, we arrive at the Tabernacle at 7.25 in the morning.
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We rehearse until about nine o'clock.
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And then we take a half hour break while the audience comes in.
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And then we do our broadcast at 9.30.
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So during that half-hour break in June, I walked out to West Temple, right outside of Temple Square, on a day when there was a pride parade.
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And out in the middle of the street, they had shut down the street for the parade.
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And out in the middle of the street, they were preparing a banner.
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And they had written on the banner the words, Know that you are loved.
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And I thought that was lovely.
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And so I took a selfie of myself in front of the banner saying, And the caption was, I can't think of a more lovely message for a Sabbath morning.
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And that was it.
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And this account, Exmo Cringe, took that picture and posted it and tagged the Tabernacle Choir in the post and said, Hey, Tab Choir, come get your apostate.
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Because I'm an apostate because I...
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I mean, I don't even understand how that's apostate.
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It's apostate because I'm not dumping on gay people.
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I didn't even reference gay people.
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I just referenced...
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I mean, it was just nuts.
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And so they've done that over and over and over again.
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They've also done things like, you know, I've run for office a number of times, and I have not won, and they continue...
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When they're out of material, they'll post the vote totals.
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Hey, remember when Jim Bennett lost this race?
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Ha ha, Jim Bennett, what a loser.
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And it's just like, why are you doing this?
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What good does this do?
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And the only purpose seems to be to bully me.
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And so I kind of ignored it.
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I tried to engage with the account.
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I would talk to him.
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I'd kind of crack jokes, try to make light of it.
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That didn't do any good.
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That didn't stop anything.
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So then I blocked the account and that kind of made it worse because then they'd just go around and they'd screenshot everything and they do all of these things and it's just exhausting.
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And people were like, well, just ignore it.
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Well, okay.
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But every time she does it, she gets all of these people that are commenting on it.
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And it's just this horde of people telling me what a terrible person I am.
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And so I started blocking not just her, She says she's a woman, so I'm going to use the pronoun her.
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I have my doubts as to her gender identity.
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I don't know who she is.
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I know that she's tied to a family in Texas because there's a guy who admitted that he used to run the account, and his brother is a guy named Dustin Turner, and he has a wife named Paola Turner.
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And some people have said that she runs the account, although I've looked at her Twitter feed and she sometimes speaks in broken English.
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She's an immigrant.
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And this account never does.
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But I just remember last October, for instance, Dustin Turner, there was a guy who had watched conference and saw the global participants.
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We now have these international global participants that sing with us.
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And he mistakenly thought one of them had a nose ring.
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And he said, I'm not liking seeing a nose ring in the choir.
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And Dustin Turner's response was, well, it's not as bad as Jim Bennett's whole body in the choir.
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It's like, who are you?
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I don't know you.
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Why are you doing this?
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Why do you care?
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So it's just kind of been low noise.
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But over and over again, I think she gets more engagement when she attacks me than she does with anybody else.
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And I don't know why.
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I don't know what it is.
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But she just kept stepping up the attacks.
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And then one morning, about three months, it was in January.
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So one morning in January, I wake up and I have all these messages saying, you need to go look at Exmo Cringe's account.
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I'm like, really?
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Do I?
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Really?
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And I go there and she's posted the Tabernacle Choir's phone number.
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And she said, everybody, all my followers, you need to call the Tabernacle Choir and tell them they have an apostate in the choir and tell them to get rid of them.
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And to me, that was the last straw.
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That was just, it's targeted harassment.
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Twitter says they don't allow for targeted harassment.
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And I posted on my thing, please, everybody, report this account.
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I'm being targeted.
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I'm being harassed.
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This needs to stop.
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And the other thing I did was I called the Tabernacle Choir office.
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And I said, hi, I know the woman who runs the office.
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She's very pleasant.
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She actually used to be in the choir with me.
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And you can't be in the choir and work for the choir.
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So she had to step down.
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And now she runs the office.
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And I called her and I said, hey, This has happened.
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Do you know, has anybody called you?
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And she goes, no, nobody's called about this.
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So let me look at this account.
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And she pulled it up and she just was reading through it.
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And it's just vile and it's nasty.
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And it's not just to me.
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And it uses slurs, uses profanity.
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And she just said, this is the most horrifying thing I've ever seen.
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She said, would you mind if I brought this to the attention of church security?
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And I said, no, please do.
00:19:22.730 --> 00:19:25.433
And she said, all right, we'll do.
00:19:25.473 --> 00:19:29.858
And within two hours, the account was suspended.
00:19:30.921 --> 00:19:35.246
The account was kicked off of Twitter, which is its most severe punishment.
00:19:36.326 --> 00:19:39.611
And this account had over 3,000 followers at the time.
00:19:39.651 --> 00:19:42.414
And they were kicked off of Twitter.
00:19:42.775 --> 00:19:45.097
And all of my friends and everybody...
00:19:45.410 --> 00:19:48.452
who had been bullied by this person, started to cheer.
00:19:48.532 --> 00:19:55.740
And there were memes made where I was the conquering hero for getting her kicked off of Twitter.
00:19:55.819 --> 00:19:58.363
I mean, I don't know if church security...
00:19:59.242 --> 00:20:07.330
I have to assume that somebody in church security has a little more sway than I do.
00:20:07.490 --> 00:20:13.136
But within an hour or two of that conversation with the choir office, she was gone.
00:20:13.176 --> 00:20:13.998
And then...
00:20:14.529 --> 00:20:17.795
Within about three hours, she was back with a new account.
00:20:18.796 --> 00:20:27.869
She registered a new account, changed her name from Exmo Cringe to The Exmo Cringe, and just started, picked up where she left off.
00:20:28.691 --> 00:20:34.239
And the fun thing was that she had had 3,000 followers and had dropped down to zero followers.
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:42.290
It's now back up to about 700 followers, which is, you know, roughly a quarter of what it was.
00:20:43.673 --> 00:20:46.237
But But when she came back, haha, I'm back.
00:20:46.676 --> 00:20:52.525
And the first thing she did was repost a video of me making fun of me.
00:20:53.046 --> 00:20:59.575
Because right after Donald Trump lost in 2020, I had COVID at the time.
00:20:59.595 --> 00:21:00.996
I looked totally disheveled.
00:21:01.557 --> 00:21:08.445
But I made this goofy video of myself playing We Are the Champions, singing, Joe is the champion.
00:21:08.467 --> 00:21:11.590
And my hair is a mess and my dog's barking at me.
00:21:12.111 --> 00:21:13.032
And I just thought, I don't care.
00:21:13.093 --> 00:21:13.854
And I posted it.
00:21:14.817 --> 00:21:20.244
And she continually reposts that, takes really ugly screenshots of it.
00:21:20.746 --> 00:21:21.507
Look at Jim Bennett.
00:21:21.527 --> 00:21:22.528
Look how ugly he is.
00:21:22.587 --> 00:21:23.630
Look how ridiculous he is.
00:21:24.411 --> 00:21:26.452
And it's just exhausting.
00:21:26.472 --> 00:21:29.136
And that became her pinned post.
00:21:29.257 --> 00:21:37.788
And it was now that I had defeated her that once I was going to be her target from then on.
00:21:37.948 --> 00:21:41.993
And pretty much it's been nothing but Jim Bennett all day, every day.
00:21:42.849 --> 00:21:52.544
And I can't tell you how exhausting it is to have somebody you don't even know just stalking you.
00:21:53.105 --> 00:21:59.173
I mean, she would post things like, when I first got an Instagram account, I didn't really understand Instagram.
00:21:59.213 --> 00:22:00.194
And I said, what do you do with this?
00:22:00.234 --> 00:22:01.817
Do you just post pictures of your feet?
00:22:02.818 --> 00:22:10.210
And so my first eight to 10 Instagram posts were pictures of my feet in different places.
00:22:11.137 --> 00:22:12.179
And she posted that.
00:22:12.199 --> 00:22:13.039
I was like, what a pervert.
00:22:13.942 --> 00:22:15.663
I mean, she says, I mean, that's the caption.
00:22:16.023 --> 00:22:16.785
Look at this pervert.
00:22:16.845 --> 00:22:20.069
And I'm like, you realize these pictures are from 10 years ago.
00:22:20.769 --> 00:22:22.633
I opened my Instagram account in 2014.
00:22:24.214 --> 00:22:27.138
And I'm just like, she's combing through all these things.
00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:34.548
And it's even worse because there's a sister missionary that I served with.
00:22:34.607 --> 00:22:37.291
You didn't serve with her because she was only there with McConkie.
00:22:37.972 --> 00:22:38.373
I met her.
00:22:38.512 --> 00:22:38.594
I...
00:22:39.074 --> 00:22:42.180
I met her actually at President McConkie's funeral years ago.
00:22:43.442 --> 00:22:53.881
And she is in a private Facebook group that is a support group for parents of LGBTQ members.
00:22:55.063 --> 00:23:03.097
And somehow Exmo Cringe kept getting screenshots of this private group and would repost them on Twitter.
00:23:03.650 --> 00:23:10.115
and say, ha, ha, ha, look at these people and would point out people who were saying things that were not for public consumption.
00:23:10.856 --> 00:23:16.903
But I mean, just an absolutely, completely vicious, awful, vile account.
00:23:17.644 --> 00:23:19.365
And she stepped it up and stepped it up.
00:23:19.546 --> 00:23:37.534
And over conference, when we talked about in our last podcast, the tension between universality, I mean, she would post things like, You know, I would say I'm looking forward to Elder Kieran speaking in conference.
00:23:39.195 --> 00:23:45.821
And after Elder Kieran spoke, a lot of progressive Mormons said thank you.
00:23:46.843 --> 00:23:49.486
And she posted all of this and says, look at these idiots.
00:23:49.546 --> 00:23:50.686
They don't love the brethren.
00:23:50.707 --> 00:23:52.788
They only love what they like to hear.
00:23:52.828 --> 00:23:56.992
And I'm like, why are you trashing people for praising an apostle?
00:23:57.593 --> 00:24:02.577
It's just vicious and it's awful and it has to stop and I don't know how to make it stop.
00:24:03.554 --> 00:24:08.461
But for whatever reason, after conference, she just went full blast.
00:24:08.922 --> 00:24:13.829
And within a 24-hour period, there were over two dozen posts about me.
00:24:13.890 --> 00:24:18.297
And I finally unblocked her and sent her a message.
00:24:18.396 --> 00:24:19.519
And I said, okay, you win.
00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:20.961
You win.
00:24:22.143 --> 00:24:24.625
What do I have to do to get you to leave me alone?
00:24:26.769 --> 00:24:29.314
And she messaged back.
00:24:30.816 --> 00:24:31.416
And she said...
00:24:32.385 --> 00:24:37.071
well, you have to unblock all of my followers.
00:24:37.352 --> 00:24:43.199
Because I'd gone to all of her followers, and I thought, if you follow this account, I don't want to listen to you.
00:24:43.259 --> 00:24:44.340
I don't want to have anything to do with you.
00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:47.003
And I blocked every, I mean, it was very easy to do.
00:24:47.044 --> 00:24:51.068
You just go to the account, and if there was a new follower, you just hit block, and I blocked all these people.
00:24:51.769 --> 00:24:54.913
So unblock all of them, and then I'll leave you alone.
00:24:56.455 --> 00:24:57.115
And so I do.
00:24:57.135 --> 00:24:58.518
I unblocked all of them.
00:24:58.858 --> 00:24:59.819
I'm like, okay, fine.
00:24:59.880 --> 00:25:01.501
And people are like, Jim, don't do it, don't do it.
00:25:01.922 --> 00:25:05.145
And they say, you'll just make it worse.
00:25:05.185 --> 00:25:06.508
And I said, how could it be any worse?
00:25:07.269 --> 00:25:07.970
I've ignored her.
00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:08.951
That hasn't worked.
00:25:09.011 --> 00:25:09.952
I've engaged with her.
00:25:09.992 --> 00:25:10.953
That hasn't worked.
00:25:11.275 --> 00:25:11.955
I blocked her.
00:25:11.996 --> 00:25:13.057
That hasn't worked.
00:25:13.857 --> 00:25:15.980
I want to do whatever I can to make it work.
00:25:16.741 --> 00:25:31.162
And one of the things I told her was, hey, by the way, in these private messages, I said, I've had conversations with choir leadership and they're aware of you and they are horrified by you.
00:25:32.193 --> 00:25:33.634
And they are disgusted by you.
00:25:34.776 --> 00:25:42.223
And I don't think you have any idea how many people you have hurt and how much damage you are doing to the church.
00:25:43.825 --> 00:25:50.090
One of the things that she did, for instance, was led the charge against Aaron Cherinian.
00:25:51.992 --> 00:25:59.279
You know, Aaron Cherinian, the new PR director for the church, who was a friend of mine, who was the bishop in my father's word when my father died.
00:25:59.319 --> 00:26:01.201
We've talked all at length about that.
00:26:01.794 --> 00:26:08.521
And we're going to talk on this podcast about the funeral I attended yesterday.
00:26:08.582 --> 00:26:14.348
But at the funeral I attended yesterday, it was presided over by Matt Holland, who was a general authority.
00:26:14.388 --> 00:26:17.231
And you know Matt Holland better than I do.
00:26:18.614 --> 00:26:20.556
But Matt Holland, son of Jeffrey R.
00:26:20.596 --> 00:26:22.858
Holland, and was an AP in our mission.
00:26:23.118 --> 00:26:28.405
And Matt Holland came down from the stand after the funeral and sought me out.
00:26:29.026 --> 00:26:34.692
You know, I didn't know him that well, but he came, Jim, Jim Bennett, and came and shook my hand and we talked for a minute.
00:26:35.394 --> 00:26:43.103
And he said, I just wanted to thank you and tell you how many people appreciate what you've done online to defend Aaron Cherinian.
00:26:44.424 --> 00:26:48.349
And I went, jeez, could you tell that to Exmo Cringe, please?
00:26:48.970 --> 00:26:58.461
Could you tell that to all of the people who are out there thinking they are defending the church as they bully Aaron?
00:26:58.786 --> 00:27:02.230
relentlessly members of the church they don't agree with.
00:27:03.211 --> 00:27:06.234
I remember when President Nelson gave his peacemaker talk.
00:27:06.275 --> 00:27:10.320
I thought, aha, finally, Exmo cringe and their ilk will stop.
00:27:11.541 --> 00:27:15.586
Clearly, they got to recognize that President Nelson is talking to them.
00:27:15.626 --> 00:27:17.910
And it didn't even make a dent.
00:27:18.711 --> 00:27:20.614
It didn't change anything.
00:27:20.653 --> 00:27:26.902
And people would bring it to their attention and say, look, you realize the prophets told you not to do this.
00:27:27.970 --> 00:27:30.192
And they always find, you can always find a loophole.
00:27:30.893 --> 00:27:35.376
President Nelson in that talk said, I'm not saying there should be peace at any price.
00:27:36.678 --> 00:27:43.204
And so they say, yeah, well, yeah, but see, this is important because we're trashing, we're making sure that all these apostates are purged.
00:27:43.625 --> 00:27:45.406
We're separating the wheat from the tares.
00:27:46.007 --> 00:27:51.352
We're, you know, we're taking the whip and casting the money changers out of the temple.
00:27:51.392 --> 00:27:56.998
I mean, their version of Jesus spent absolutely all of his time with a whip in his hand.
00:27:57.730 --> 00:27:58.790
casting people out.
00:27:59.511 --> 00:28:00.792
And so over and over and over again.
00:28:00.913 --> 00:28:03.275
So I finally say, okay, I'll do this.
00:28:03.295 --> 00:28:07.640
I will unblock your followers if you leave me alone.
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:26.778
And she says, well, what I'm going to do is I won't screenshot you anymore, which is a very important distinction because when she was blocked in order to repost me because she couldn't see my account, she had to use a different account, go and take a screenshot of it and then post it.
00:28:27.329 --> 00:28:34.259
But if she's unblocked, all she can do is she can quote me and she can be just as vicious quoting me as she was with the screenshot.
00:28:35.260 --> 00:28:37.784
And I said, well, wait a minute, that's not leaving me alone.
00:28:38.825 --> 00:28:43.191
And she's like, well, if you're going to be heretical, I'm going to call you out.
00:28:43.310 --> 00:28:44.492
I'm going to continue to call you out.
00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:48.878
And I'm like, this was a complete mistake.
00:28:49.179 --> 00:28:50.580
This was a complete waste of time.
00:28:50.621 --> 00:29:01.674
And what happened in the aftermath is that all of her followers once I'd unleashed them, just swarmed all over me.
00:29:02.256 --> 00:29:17.775
Every time I posted anything, I mean, I have one guy post, I'm talking about something completely different and I get, Jim, do you think homosexual, do you think homosexual sex is a sin?
00:29:17.855 --> 00:29:18.375
Yes or no?
00:29:19.877 --> 00:29:21.440
And I'm like, I'm not talking to you.
00:29:21.901 --> 00:29:23.402
And that's not what this conversation is.
00:29:23.502 --> 00:29:26.046
And why do you think I would want to engage with you on that?
00:29:26.753 --> 00:29:31.922
And my response was, that's the worst pickup line I've ever heard.
00:29:31.961 --> 00:29:36.228
These guys really get thrown off when you...
00:29:36.548 --> 00:29:42.237
I found one of the best ways to deal with trolls is you always take it as if they're coming on to you.
00:29:42.877 --> 00:29:43.739
Are you coming on to me?
00:29:43.778 --> 00:29:45.000
What are you talking about?
00:29:45.080 --> 00:29:46.281
And that scares them off sometimes.
00:29:46.323 --> 00:29:54.114
But the swarm just descended on me, and I finally just went to Twitter and said, enough, and I deactivated my account.
00:29:55.938 --> 00:30:06.354
And so when you deactivate your Twitter account, if you try to see any posts or anything, it says this account no longer exists.
00:30:07.816 --> 00:30:14.787
And I let it sit for an afternoon and for the rest of the day.
00:30:14.826 --> 00:30:22.178
And I woke up in the middle of the night and I said, I can't leave it that way because then she absolutely has won.
00:30:23.170 --> 00:30:25.792
And she's absolutely bullied me off the platform.
00:30:26.394 --> 00:30:27.454
And I hate bullies.
00:30:27.615 --> 00:30:30.118
And I just handed a bully a victory.
00:30:30.378 --> 00:30:30.839
She wins.
00:30:31.921 --> 00:30:40.250
And so I reactivated my account in the dead of night and wrote a lengthy thread where I recounted pretty much everything I've just said to you.
00:30:40.290 --> 00:30:50.344
And that thread, I could pull it up right now, as of now, has...
00:30:52.481 --> 00:30:57.686
So my account now says, it's called Jim Bennett is doing fine offline.
00:30:59.028 --> 00:31:00.650
And my bio says, I'm taking a break.
00:31:00.730 --> 00:31:01.891
I'll be back, but not today.
00:31:01.931 --> 00:31:03.712
Not interested in being a piñata.
00:31:05.335 --> 00:31:15.304
And the account has 88,000 or that thread at least has 88,000 views.
00:31:17.365 --> 00:31:24.289
And it's being talked about at length by people that I didn't even realize that it's gone far and wide.
00:31:24.769 --> 00:31:29.457
And I'm hearing rumblings that there may even be some news stories about it.
00:31:30.557 --> 00:31:33.561
And people have responded very positively.
00:31:33.602 --> 00:31:40.892
I haven't read through, because I'm deliberately trying to just set this aside, leave it alone, and walk away.
00:31:40.932 --> 00:31:44.277
But I've said I'll be back, and I will be back.
00:31:44.517 --> 00:31:49.364
And the one thing I will be back for, for sure, is...
00:31:51.458 --> 00:31:53.701
to post links to our podcast.
00:31:54.121 --> 00:31:55.002
Because the only way I...
00:31:56.084 --> 00:31:57.285
We don't advertise this.
00:31:57.345 --> 00:31:58.467
We don't put any money into it.
00:31:59.607 --> 00:32:07.057
And so every time I edit a podcast and get it online, I post it to my Facebook account, which is only people I know.
00:32:07.719 --> 00:32:11.564
But I also post it to the Twitter account so that people that we don't know can get it.
00:32:11.604 --> 00:32:13.786
And that's the only advertising we do.
00:32:13.926 --> 00:32:16.990
I don't know if you've done any other advertising beyond that.
00:32:17.070 --> 00:32:17.711
I don't think so.
00:32:18.692 --> 00:32:19.653
So I will...
00:32:19.874 --> 00:32:24.579
continue to do that, and eventually I'll sort of dip my toe back in the water.
00:32:25.381 --> 00:32:55.675
But the thing that this highlights is, and I talked to Matt Holland about this, and Matt Holland agreed with it 100%, is that these people do more damage to the church, to the reputation of the church, to the mission of the church, than John Dillon or Bill Reel or any critic of the church could ever do because it's friendly fire.
00:32:55.715 --> 00:33:08.151
One of the things I posted was when Jesus said, blessed are you when people will hate you and persecute you, I didn't realize how much of that was going to come from inside the house.
00:33:08.771 --> 00:33:10.233
It's all coming from inside the house.
00:33:10.673 --> 00:33:19.550
It's all coming from people who think That not only are they not doing something wrong, they're the righteous ones.
00:33:20.352 --> 00:33:26.340
They're the ones, I mean, Exmo cringe every time somebody talks about having left the church.
00:33:27.563 --> 00:33:31.689
Writes, hey, just wanted you to know how grateful I am you left.
00:33:32.810 --> 00:33:34.733
I'm like, how does that build the kingdom of God?
00:33:34.773 --> 00:33:37.478
How does that help the church?
00:33:38.239 --> 00:33:42.625
When you're cheering on people leaving, it's just repugnant to me.
00:33:43.394 --> 00:33:54.791
And I know it's repugnant, and I've had conversations I'm not going to share publicly, but I know it's repugnant to the people in Salt Lake.
00:33:55.574 --> 00:33:58.178
I know it's repugnant to the brethren.
00:33:58.198 --> 00:34:05.048
I know it's repugnant to the Quorum of the Twelve and to the First Presidency.
00:34:05.088 --> 00:34:08.233
And I know that they don't know what to do about it.
00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:14.896
Because I think the Peacemaker talk was aimed at trying to at least stop it, and it hasn't slowed it down.
00:34:14.936 --> 00:34:25.909
And church members online, if you were not a member of the church, and you decided, okay, well, I'm kind of interested.
00:34:25.969 --> 00:34:27.512
I don't know anything about the Mormons.
00:34:27.572 --> 00:34:28.432
How would I find out?
00:34:28.873 --> 00:34:32.237
I'm going to go on Twitter and just see what the Mormons are saying.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:45.873
Your first point of contact would probably be, It's 90% more likely that you would find someone like Exmo Cringe than you would a decent, faithful member of the church.
00:34:46.914 --> 00:34:53.762
And you would have to conclude that all these Mormons are are insular bigots who eat their own.
00:34:55.043 --> 00:34:58.226
And that's the only message that you would get.
00:34:59.188 --> 00:35:15.557
So at the end of this experience, When I wrote up my 88,000 viewed thread, I was thinking about the funeral that I was going to go to later that day.
00:35:15.597 --> 00:35:16.498
It was that morning.
00:35:16.518 --> 00:35:17.800
It was two o'clock in the morning.
00:35:17.860 --> 00:35:22.547
And I said, I'm thinking about where I'm going to be in nine hours time.
00:35:22.989 --> 00:35:28.257
I'm going to be at the funeral of Michael Maddox, who was a mission buddy of mine.
00:35:28.336 --> 00:35:29.237
He was the AP.
00:35:29.278 --> 00:35:37.682
He was Matt Holland's Matt Holland was the AP, along with Mike Maddox, when I arrived in Scotland.
00:35:38.764 --> 00:35:48.454
And he was one of the most gregarious and friendly, warm, kind, outgoing people that you could ever want to meet.
00:35:48.634 --> 00:35:50.014
And he died by suicide.
00:35:50.034 --> 00:35:52.538
And I had no idea.
00:35:52.557 --> 00:35:57.021
And I know you had no idea that he was suffering from this.
00:35:57.983 --> 00:36:02.782
And I ended and I said, look, when we bully people like this, I mean, I'm okay.
00:36:02.822 --> 00:36:04.565
I'm not about to jump off a cliff.
00:36:05.586 --> 00:36:07.349
But you have no idea.
00:36:07.369 --> 00:36:11.936
You have no idea what people are going through.
00:36:12.496 --> 00:36:14.619
You have no idea how people are struggling.
00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:16.702
You have no idea the battle they're fighting.
00:36:17.603 --> 00:36:21.748
And I imagine these bullies who are bullying people in the name of the Lord.
00:36:21.789 --> 00:36:28.318
And I wonder, you know, the people they're bullying tend to be LGBTQ people.
00:36:29.186 --> 00:36:46.731
They tend to be people who are already on the margins and already struggle and are statistically far more likely to be victims of suicide.
00:36:46.751 --> 00:36:54.342
And I just think, who are we as a people that we can do this?
00:36:55.233 --> 00:37:07.512
And so I, you know, for those of you who are listening to this podcast to sort of get the inside scoop on all of this because you followed the drama on Twitter, please know that I'm fine.
00:37:08.034 --> 00:37:10.516
I'm not contemplating suicide.
00:37:11.117 --> 00:37:13.702
It was actually quite a relief to just sort of set it aside.
00:37:13.943 --> 00:37:17.507
I talked to my wife right afterwards and I said, well, I deactivated my Twitter account.
00:37:17.527 --> 00:37:20.092
And she's like, oh, she was so thrilled.
00:37:21.313 --> 00:37:26.760
And so I think my life will continue drastically improve as I step away from this.
00:37:27.842 --> 00:37:40.715
But I just, my heart breaks because I've spent the last couple of days not necessarily thinking about this Twitter debacle, but I've been thinking about Eldermatics.
00:37:40.994 --> 00:37:42.856
I've been thinking about the funeral.
00:37:43.538 --> 00:37:54.255
I've been thinking about the messages at the funeral and just how terrible we can be to the most vulnerable among us.
00:37:55.177 --> 00:37:55.697
So there you go.
00:37:55.717 --> 00:37:58.000
I've taken up a great deal of time.
00:37:58.039 --> 00:37:59.362
That's the story.
00:37:59.402 --> 00:38:00.242
That's the scoop.
00:38:01.384 --> 00:38:09.432
And you haven't said a word except to correct me on Jacinda Ardern's name, which I probably just said wrong.
00:38:10.353 --> 00:38:14.259
But I'd love to hear your thoughts on all of that.
00:38:14.659 --> 00:38:16.842
And maybe if we want to talk about the funeral.
00:38:17.623 --> 00:38:19.063
Because you watched the funeral, didn't you?
00:38:19.103 --> 00:38:20.226
I did, yes.
00:38:22.753 --> 00:38:27.880
Jim, this conversation that we've had just now is really important.
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:35.789
It's important to you, to your family, to those who know you, love you, who know the kind of person that you are.
00:38:36.650 --> 00:38:48.025
It's important to get this information out so people can listen, feel through the conversation your sincerity and how genuine you are on this.
00:38:48.204 --> 00:38:48.724
And I know this...
00:38:50.273 --> 00:39:28.429
twitter feed and a lot of the criticism that has been directed at you very often on a very personal level has affected you uh in in very different ways we see people use social media to attack on a very personal level the problem is extends far beyond the church we see this in talking about any subjects i've even seen this in my own um Facebook feed where I've tried to bring up something on politics or some other issue, and it can be quite personal.
00:39:29.349 --> 00:39:35.760
And I've lost, unfortunately, a few personal friendships, sadly, on things that I posted.
00:39:35.820 --> 00:39:43.735
I thought I'd try to do respectfully, but it's sometimes difficult to have a civil dialogue on some of the key issues.
00:39:43.994 --> 00:39:45.398
A lot of these issues are very emotive.
00:39:46.498 --> 00:39:54.088
And so as I listen to you, I've made a few notes, and I'll share my notes and thoughts here.
00:39:54.128 --> 00:39:58.512
I'll try to put them in some order, some context here.
00:39:58.552 --> 00:40:02.478
First, I'm sorry you had to experience those personal attacks.
00:40:02.737 --> 00:40:09.065
They are a form of bullying, and whether we admit it or not, they do affect us.
00:40:09.126 --> 00:40:09.947
They do impact us.
00:40:10.047 --> 00:40:17.273
I know when I left the church, just prior, certainly immediately after leaving the church, I received a message.
00:40:18.155 --> 00:40:20.077
And as I was listening to you, I wrote this down.
00:40:20.998 --> 00:40:30.208
And the message was, and this broke my heart, actually, the church is better off without you and good riddance.
00:40:31.210 --> 00:40:33.773
And that was devastating.
00:40:34.773 --> 00:40:35.974
Was that an anonymous message?
00:40:37.096 --> 00:40:39.259
No, no, it came through somebody that I knew.
00:40:39.278 --> 00:40:41.021
And it was...
00:40:42.722 --> 00:40:47.007
that I thought we had a good relationship, and it was heartbreaking.
00:40:47.728 --> 00:40:49.871
And then to receive a letter from the...
00:40:50.291 --> 00:40:51.612
I mean, I resigned the membership.
00:40:53.735 --> 00:41:00.764
I received a letter from church headquarters from the membership department, just one line saying, you are now no longer a member of the church.
00:41:01.304 --> 00:41:01.684
And that was it.
00:41:01.965 --> 00:41:02.346
It was over.
00:41:02.385 --> 00:41:04.447
There was no, thank you for your service.
00:41:06.391 --> 00:41:06.851
Come back.
00:41:06.951 --> 00:41:08.432
There was not even an invitation to come back.
00:41:08.472 --> 00:41:12.478
I'm not saying that I would have come back at all, but if I'd have wrote that letter, I'd have...
00:41:12.865 --> 00:41:15.449
but a little bit of kindness, a little bit of...
00:41:16.309 --> 00:41:19.954
It was completely opposite to what anything I think Christ would have written.
00:41:21.096 --> 00:41:27.523
And it was just another, for me personally, just another confirmation, not that I needed one, that I was making my choice.
00:41:28.284 --> 00:41:42.581
As I listened to you, your experience with these comments, and often very personal, your experience on the Twitter feed that you mentioned, I'm thinking, where does all that come from?
00:41:43.746 --> 00:41:51.012
And there are a number of sources where a lot of those comments and the motivations behind those comments come from.
00:41:51.032 --> 00:41:59.902
I try to look at the original source of why people say things and what's driving them.
00:42:00.722 --> 00:42:10.172
And there's a relationship between the individuals who are writing those terrible things about you, and they've written terrible things about other people as well.
00:42:12.481 --> 00:42:19.068
It comes from, I believe, a doctrinal understanding of the church.
00:42:20.190 --> 00:42:37.869
I think people in the church, mostly, not entirely, those people that thrive in the church are right-wing, wing, Republican, conservative-thinking, sizable percentage of Trump voters, perhaps, not liberal, certainly not...
00:42:38.690 --> 00:42:42.556
as the term is used, is a lot more liberal thinking.
00:42:43.277 --> 00:42:55.358
People who are anti-gay, who are probably more conservative in their thinking, more traditional orthodox thinking, which is where the church comes from.
00:42:55.418 --> 00:43:18.010
It comes from the very strict Presbyterian Church of England, extremely strict church, orthodox religious thinking way back in the 18th century, where everything is very prescribed, it's very specific, it's very controlled, very regulated, and you have to think and fit and conform a certain way.
00:43:18.471 --> 00:43:26.798
And if you deviate from that, then you are not in that core group of hard believers.
00:43:26.898 --> 00:43:33.606
And those people that are in that group are still significant size in terms of the population of the church, I believe.
00:43:34.146 --> 00:43:39.090
and are still alive and well and trying to hang on and protect some of those original teachings.
00:43:40.112 --> 00:43:43.315
The church is going through extraordinary pressures.
00:43:43.916 --> 00:43:50.204
How does it reconcile this modern thinking, this more liberal, open thinking that we're seeing in a lot of the young people right now?
00:43:51.224 --> 00:44:03.057
And I would like this as well, the importance of free speech, being able to speak freely, openly, without criticism, and to have an environment where you can feel safe and secure.
00:44:03.521 --> 00:44:06.065
speak openly, express an opinion, even if it's different.
00:44:06.766 --> 00:44:07.728
Let's agree to disagree.
00:44:07.768 --> 00:44:32.106
And the need to have free agency with the free speech, that we're free to think and feel and to say things that we have an opinion on without being personally attacked, or at least be able to say what we think with some level of respect and kindness, I think.
00:44:32.418 --> 00:44:34.981
Sadly, a lot of that has gone in the world.
00:44:35.563 --> 00:44:51.327
And then how does the church reconcile the doctrine and its position on free speech, as Elder Oaks has spoken about several times, and the principle of free agency, think and feel and be ourselves, be individuals.
00:44:51.887 --> 00:45:03.019
How does it reconcile that with the cover the path, the need to conform, to be strict, to be, you know, the church regulates so much of the member's life.
00:45:03.900 --> 00:45:14.012
But if you think and say things outside of that Orthodox thinking, that traditional thinking, like you, keeping in mind you are in the church and I'm out of the church.
00:45:14.052 --> 00:45:15.492
You're on the inside, I'm on the out.
00:45:16.414 --> 00:45:28.086
And so there's a very different dynamic going on here because, and I've made some notes here, your legacy, your background is very different to mine.
00:45:28.567 --> 00:45:29.628
I'm a convert to the church.
00:45:29.688 --> 00:45:36.420
I've even had it said to me that What does he know he's just a convert, even though I was in the church for almost 35, 40 years?
00:45:36.481 --> 00:45:38.262
I thought we were all converts, but clearly not.
00:45:38.804 --> 00:45:41.947
Your legacy, your background, it couldn't be more different than mine.
00:45:41.967 --> 00:45:42.568
It's very different.
00:45:43.048 --> 00:45:46.193
You come from Royal Norman, blue blood.
00:45:47.173 --> 00:45:50.177
I mean, you're a direct descendant of David O.
00:45:50.478 --> 00:45:53.362
McKay, pronounced correctly, I think.
00:45:53.382 --> 00:45:56.164
McKay, you can correct me wrong, you're a member of his family, Scottish.
00:45:56.898 --> 00:46:06.052
You know, your mother's got, Darren said, from General Authorities, Apostles, and your family legacy is extraordinary, very different, could be more different than mine.
00:46:06.572 --> 00:46:26.798
And so there was an expectation in the church, I believe, with people that you know and people that you don't know, that Jim Bennett should toe the line, that you should have Orthodox traditional thinking, and you should think like them, and you're in the involvement of the choir, you're an active member of the church, and you really should stay within that traditional Orthodox thinking, because it because of your legacy.
00:46:27.260 --> 00:46:35.128
And the step outside of that is courting opposition and criticism and attacks from you.
00:46:36.150 --> 00:46:40.675
You've got this group of people online that see you as a threat to the church.
00:46:42.155 --> 00:46:45.820
As a person, you've run for office.
00:46:46.780 --> 00:46:57.190
And the very principle, I think, of running for government is being able to, in a democracy like America or UK or Canada, is being able to Express your policies and your opinions freely.
00:46:57.230 --> 00:47:00.153
And yes, people can disagree with it, but disagree with the policies.
00:47:00.454 --> 00:47:01.856
Let's have a conversation about the policies.
00:47:02.577 --> 00:47:04.860
And let's keep the personal attacks to the side.
00:47:04.880 --> 00:47:08.286
That's not always possible, certainly not in politics.
00:47:08.987 --> 00:47:10.228
And it can get very, very ugly.
00:47:10.309 --> 00:47:15.396
But I believe this group, and perhaps other groups in the church, see you as a direct threat.
00:47:15.898 --> 00:47:24.030
I've been described, or people have described me, under an official term, I'm told, as an enemy of politics.
00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:24.630
the church.
00:47:25.853 --> 00:47:28.978
And in any way, the church is one that doesn't toe the line.
00:47:29.057 --> 00:47:31.561
It's not in the author that's thinking, ask questions, ask the wrong questions.
00:47:32.422 --> 00:47:41.416
And by those questions and conversations, it weakens or dilutes the church and loosens the grip that the church has on its members.
00:47:43.059 --> 00:47:52.054
Lots of pretty awful comments have been said about me for speaking up and asking questions that I'm a failed father, a failed husband.
00:47:52.706 --> 00:47:54.168
I've got off the rails.
00:47:54.929 --> 00:47:56.150
My life is in turmoil.
00:47:56.630 --> 00:47:57.170
I'm lazy.
00:47:57.210 --> 00:47:58.371
I'm disobedient.
00:47:58.452 --> 00:48:00.534
I've had talks about me.
00:48:00.695 --> 00:48:02.958
A church referenced that.
00:48:03.197 --> 00:48:05.701
President Wilkes has fallen from a great height.
00:48:05.740 --> 00:48:06.501
Look what happened to him.
00:48:06.521 --> 00:48:10.907
His life is off the rails and nothing can be further from the truth.
00:48:11.347 --> 00:48:17.675
So when people feel the church is under attack, they see that as an attack on them, Jim.
00:48:18.755 --> 00:48:46.217
So if you speak in opposition, or as it is interpreted, in opposition to the church, or you're not thinking or speaking, operating within those covenant guidelines, those traditional orthodox lanes, if you like, not staying within your lane, and you operate outside of those lanes, even though you are an active member of the church, they see that as a threat.
00:48:46.818 --> 00:48:57.717
And I believe you've got these informal groups who have organized themselves without any support from the church necessarily, any official support from the church, I believe.
00:48:57.757 --> 00:49:05.250
These groups form, and they see someone like you as a threat, and they're there to tear you down, to attack.
00:49:05.429 --> 00:49:06.251
And there's nothing you can do.
00:49:06.271 --> 00:49:07.253
You can't negotiate with them.
00:49:08.074 --> 00:49:12.121
You know, deleting them, blocking them, trying to come to some compromise.
00:49:12.514 --> 00:49:13.815
You are an enemy of the church.
00:49:14.036 --> 00:49:30.353
You always will be unless you bring yourself back in and disavow, church likes to use, from some of the comments that you've made and repent, I guess, and say sorry that you were wrong, you made a mistake, and you come back into the fold.
00:49:30.534 --> 00:49:39.764
Until you do that, you'll have this extreme, what sounds like an extreme right-wing group who are hell-bent on targeting you and your opinions.
00:49:40.264 --> 00:49:43.927
The cost of that is your freedom of speech and your free agency.
00:49:43.989 --> 00:50:05.248
Remember we said earlier that, you know, how does the church reconcile free agency and free speech that it advocates so strongly and often with all of the regulations that the church places on individuals to think, to feel, to do, to wear, you know, what we wear, how you think, how you feel, certain questions.
00:50:05.929 --> 00:50:08.291
You can ask certain questions in the church.
00:50:09.072 --> 00:50:41.215
And so this group, is either and there's other groups out there that i'm not saying it's this group with you i believe the church privately actually endorses privately where there are groups out there or individuals out there where they're actually doing the uh the work of the leaders to identify threats to the church is that perfecting the saints committee policy and i believe It's not just the committee members that are active looking for threats of the church.
00:50:41.295 --> 00:51:02.617
I believe, for good reason, I've met a couple of these people where the leadership will actually engage with someone within the rank and file membership of the church on a very private level, on a very informal level, and will ask that person if they see anything that is a potential threat to the church in the stake or in the ward or in this region.
00:51:03.041 --> 00:51:05.244
please inform the state president.
00:51:05.324 --> 00:51:15.577
I don't think they go direct, but I know at least two people that have been approached in that sense, and they go to the state president and they report things that they see as a threat to the church.
00:51:15.918 --> 00:51:16.498
I believe those...
00:51:17.018 --> 00:51:22.146
Sorry to interrupt you, but when you were in the state presidency, did you get any of those reports?
00:51:23.588 --> 00:51:23.807
Yes.
00:51:24.228 --> 00:51:25.250
So people approach...
00:51:25.329 --> 00:51:27.853
Yes, it's a great question, very timely in this conversation.
00:51:27.932 --> 00:51:31.757
So I was approached two or three times, at least...
00:51:32.385 --> 00:51:38.454
with members who reported the behavior and the conduct of other people to me personally.
00:51:39.315 --> 00:52:00.927
And the context was that this person is thinking and asking questions that they shouldn't be asking and really not being obedient, not living, not behaving within the lane, if you like that, not staying within their lane, and that they were behaving or asking questions and had a more liberal type of thinking.
00:52:01.668 --> 00:52:12.817
And These came from, in my experience, older members of the church who had grown up with all of those traditional Orthodox teachings.
00:52:13.978 --> 00:52:16.961
And that's how they thought, that's how they think.
00:52:17.021 --> 00:52:22.168
I mean, if you believe a certain doctrine for so long and you live it, you become that.
00:52:22.969 --> 00:52:35.739
And I said at the very beginning that this thinking, this culture, this behavioral, these behaviors, They're directly connected, associated with the doctrine of the church.
00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:44.030
They think and believe in this right-wing, conservative, traditional thinking.
00:52:44.190 --> 00:52:51.438
You go to church, you wear certain attire, you serve, you pay tithing, you have the priesthood.
00:52:51.880 --> 00:52:53.061
Women don't have the priesthood.
00:52:53.621 --> 00:52:54.483
Women know the place.
00:52:55.003 --> 00:52:56.885
The man's the leader, et cetera, et cetera.
00:52:57.409 --> 00:53:20.664
anything to do with homosexuality is a sin of transgression it in fact is further it's a threat to the churches of satan uh you know black people are black because they weren't violent before the uh before the world was um you know these teachings and doctrines have not gone away the church has tried to disavow itself but they're still there ever present in the thinking behavior of the members.
00:53:21.144 --> 00:53:26.972
What you've got here, you've got a right-wing group that may or may not have had some endorsement from a leader.
00:53:26.992 --> 00:53:28.673
I don't think they probably happened.
00:53:29.675 --> 00:53:39.166
I think sometimes individuals do have personal endorsement from leaders, general authorities, and state presidents to do certain things.
00:53:39.246 --> 00:53:43.911
In this case, maybe not, or maybe because you are a political figure.
00:53:44.632 --> 00:53:46.193
You're a prominent figure in many ways.
00:53:47.106 --> 00:53:51.349
Again, you're not thinking and behaving the way you should and shame on you.
00:53:51.369 --> 00:53:56.074
And their strategy is to neutralize you.
00:53:56.235 --> 00:53:56.695
You're a threat.
00:53:57.856 --> 00:54:06.023
And the question, you know, and I think these are all the driving factors and the motivations behind this group.
00:54:06.463 --> 00:54:10.407
I think it's great that Matt Holland came to you and 93 comments of that era.
00:54:10.507 --> 00:54:12.369
It's great.
00:54:13.030 --> 00:54:19.284
But wouldn't it be great if the leaders of the church, if the conference stood up Goodness me, do we need leadership on this?
00:54:19.385 --> 00:54:24.271
And stood up and talked about this and said, look, it's okay to have a different opinion.
00:54:24.452 --> 00:54:25.713
You know, we believe in free speech.
00:54:26.074 --> 00:54:26.715
What does that mean?
00:54:27.777 --> 00:54:28.978
We advocate free speech.
00:54:29.860 --> 00:54:31.302
We advocate free agency.
00:54:31.322 --> 00:54:34.728
Let's have a conversation about relationship between free speech and free agency.
00:54:35.208 --> 00:54:35.949
What's the position?
00:54:36.010 --> 00:54:36.971
What's the doctrine on that?
00:54:37.012 --> 00:54:38.914
Let's get a talk from one of the leaders on that.
00:54:39.034 --> 00:54:41.338
If you're listening, please talk about this in the conference.
00:54:41.958 --> 00:54:45.545
And how do we reconcile that with the need to stay on the covenant path?
00:54:45.605 --> 00:54:46.346
What does that mean?
00:54:46.882 --> 00:54:59.054
If we have this agency and this freedom, but then we have to live a very prescribed lifestyle, how do we do that and have different opinions, different thoughts?
00:54:59.173 --> 00:55:06.840
Or are we supposed to think like robots and think exactly like a robot, a machine, and behave and think and ask questions like that?
00:55:08.623 --> 00:55:13.827
One question I had, Jim, about this group is, who is behind it?
00:55:14.847 --> 00:55:16.250
Do you know them by name?
00:55:16.929 --> 00:55:17.731
you want to mention?
00:55:17.811 --> 00:55:18.891
I mean, they know your name.
00:55:18.931 --> 00:55:21.155
You think you know them.
00:55:21.775 --> 00:55:22.635
You might not know them.
00:55:23.016 --> 00:55:26.800
You mentioned earlier you've got a name, but you don't know their identity.
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:29.163
Do you know the identity?
00:55:29.483 --> 00:55:31.766
Is it appropriate to share their
00:55:33.068 --> 00:55:33.387
identity?
00:55:34.088 --> 00:55:34.688
No, I don't.
00:55:36.630 --> 00:55:41.416
Other than the fact that I know the identity of people who know the identity.
00:55:41.436 --> 00:55:44.960
I don't know what good that does me.
00:55:46.465 --> 00:55:50.070
As you're talking, I thought of a couple of things.
00:55:50.090 --> 00:55:58.179
One being almost word for word what you said about, I want somebody to come and say this at conference.
00:55:59.260 --> 00:56:04.786
That was almost a direct quote from what President Nelson said at conference a year ago.
00:56:06.286 --> 00:56:09.331
And it fell on completely deaf ears.
00:56:12.414 --> 00:56:31.965
The other thing you talk about, okay, well, I'm staying outside of my lane And what's interesting to me is, I mean, you've talked about my blue blood royal background, which it's so funny to me because I'll talk to people about that and they'll say, well, you grew up with this.
00:56:32.005 --> 00:56:37.092
And it's like, I grew up in Southern California, totally away from the warm and center of gravity.
00:56:38.175 --> 00:56:38.534
David O.
00:56:38.554 --> 00:56:39.476
McKay and Heber J.
00:56:39.516 --> 00:56:41.840
Grant, my great grandfathers were long dead.
00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:42.900
Well, Heber J.
00:56:42.920 --> 00:56:43.702
Grant was long dead.
00:56:43.762 --> 00:56:44.063
David O.
00:56:44.083 --> 00:56:46.286
McKay died when I was an infant.
00:56:47.106 --> 00:56:53.277
And, you know, I never grew up with that kind of an identity.
00:56:53.336 --> 00:56:54.900
That's not how I see myself.
00:56:54.940 --> 00:56:56.762
That may be how other people see me.
00:56:57.704 --> 00:57:04.998
But the one thing that I do know and understand is I know where the lines are.
00:57:05.018 --> 00:57:07.402
I know where the boundaries are.
00:57:08.585 --> 00:57:11.389
And I've talked about, for instance, the family proclamations.
00:57:12.481 --> 00:57:24.536
And one of the things I've said is that the Family Proclamation is very often referenced and embraced for things that it doesn't actually say.
00:57:25.677 --> 00:57:28.141
But everybody sort of assumes it's saying.
00:57:28.240 --> 00:57:32.927
They assume that it's calling for bigotry against LGBTQ people.
00:57:32.967 --> 00:57:37.793
They assume, I mean, they finally had to issue one correction.
00:57:37.853 --> 00:57:39.235
It's even made its way into the handbook.
00:57:40.175 --> 00:57:41.518
You know, the sentence about gender?
00:57:42.594 --> 00:57:50.224
gender is an essential part of your identity, mortal identity and eternal identity and purpose.
00:57:51.286 --> 00:58:01.420
And transgender people were embracing that language and making it their own and saying, yeah, my eternal identity is part of my eternal purpose and this is great.
00:58:02.081 --> 00:58:10.012
And so President Oaks had to come out and say, no, we mean your biological gender at birth, your biological sex at birth.
00:58:10.172 --> 00:58:20.467
And now, In the handbook, it says the family proclamation sentence about gender means biological sex at birth because that's not what the proclamation itself says.
00:58:20.887 --> 00:58:30.382
So I get accused by this group, by these people, of being an apostate and advocating apostasy and speaking wildly.
00:58:31.123 --> 00:58:33.146
And I know where the line is.
00:58:33.166 --> 00:58:34.788
I don't do that.
00:58:35.510 --> 00:58:38.853
You know, I get accused, for instance, of criticizing the church.
00:58:39.014 --> 00:58:41.097
I don't ever criticize the church.
00:58:41.985 --> 00:58:53.541
So just about one of the most recent events with Exmo Cringe was they said, everybody knows how much Jim Bennett hates Dallin Oates or President Oates.
00:58:54.943 --> 00:59:01.532
And I said, could you please provide the receipts for this?
00:59:01.572 --> 00:59:02.434
Thank you very much.
00:59:03.233 --> 00:59:12.083
And they dutifully went and spent a day digging through my account to find everything I'd said about President Oaks and posted it and said, see, aha, here it is.
00:59:12.123 --> 00:59:17.530
And what they posted was me saying, what President Oaks has said here is very positive.
00:59:18.351 --> 00:59:23.297
His laudable call to do this, it was all praise for President Oaks.
00:59:24.057 --> 00:59:27.221
And I went, where is the criticism?
00:59:27.340 --> 00:59:30.505
And everybody else that read through it went, yeah, he's right.
00:59:30.565 --> 00:59:31.405
Where's the criticism?
00:59:32.097 --> 00:59:42.050
I mean, the other thing he accused me of was, oh, he is openly calling for harm on Elder Bednar.
00:59:43.231 --> 00:59:53.846
Because somebody had said, I said, I'm very hopeful about the future of the church, and somebody had sort of insinuated that that hope stops with Elder Bednar.
00:59:54.387 --> 00:59:57.550
Because Elder Bednar is positioned to lead the church for a very long time.
00:59:57.590 --> 01:00:03.976
He's younger than these other apostles and and could very well be the president of the church for a great deal of time.
01:00:04.016 --> 01:00:11.925
And all they said was, I mean, I'm trying to extrapolate this accusation, because it's so ridiculous.
01:00:12.425 --> 01:00:15.728
Because all they said was, I can think of one reason not to be hopeful.
01:00:17.010 --> 01:00:21.974
And my response was, oh, I can see that, but a lot can happen between now and then.
01:00:21.994 --> 01:00:24.878
A lot can and will happen between now and then.
01:00:24.898 --> 01:00:28.402
And that was taken as a murder threat.
01:00:29.409 --> 01:00:32.936
That what can happen is that Jim Bennett will hunt down.
01:00:32.956 --> 01:00:40.327
I mean, it was, you know, so the point being, I know what the lane is.
01:00:41.170 --> 01:00:43.012
I know where the guardrails are.
01:00:43.052 --> 01:00:46.418
I know where the boundaries are.
01:00:47.059 --> 01:00:53.210
I know that if I cross those boundaries in any significant way, and it's, I think, reinforcing what you're saying.
01:00:53.889 --> 01:00:58.498
Because, yeah, if I want to stay in the church, I have to stay in that lane.
01:00:58.597 --> 01:01:00.440
I have to stay within those guardrails.
01:01:00.860 --> 01:01:06.329
And the minute I cross them, I'm putting myself in danger in terms of my membership in the church.
01:01:06.731 --> 01:01:12.740
There are people who cross them and somehow survive to tell the tale.
01:01:13.882 --> 01:01:20.733
I think I've had enough feedback from the Brethren about how positive...
01:01:21.505 --> 01:01:31.181
My CES letter reply has been received that I think I'm probably got a little more leeway than some other folks do.
01:01:31.981 --> 01:01:34.164
But I do know where the line is.
01:01:34.565 --> 01:01:37.670
I know where the guardrails are and I stay within them.
01:01:39.112 --> 01:01:40.193
And that's still not enough.
01:01:41.155 --> 01:01:42.376
I'm still not pure enough.
01:01:42.737 --> 01:01:45.121
I'm still not righteous enough.
01:01:45.666 --> 01:01:48.369
And I'm still seen as a threat to the church.
01:01:48.909 --> 01:01:59.163
And when you talk about the fact that, okay, that there are people who are endorsing this tacitly at church headquarters, I am hearing precisely the opposite.
01:02:00.846 --> 01:02:06.052
I think that would have been true 30 years ago or more.
01:02:06.934 --> 01:02:08.675
When did President Benson die?
01:02:09.797 --> 01:02:10.016
Right?
01:02:10.137 --> 01:02:10.978
That whole...
01:02:12.000 --> 01:02:13.001
President Benson...
01:02:13.601 --> 01:02:22.396
And his political right-wing, hard-right ideology was a big part of church leadership throughout his entire tenure.
01:02:23.317 --> 01:02:27.643
And I know that it was also hugely controversial during his huge...
01:02:27.704 --> 01:02:36.717
My great-grandfather, President Benson and President McKay, just really butted heads up, down, and sideways, often on political issues.
01:02:38.239 --> 01:02:41.545
And President Benson, when he was an elder, he was...
01:02:42.530 --> 01:02:44.152
kind of banished to Europe.
01:02:44.813 --> 01:02:50.380
They sent him to Europe to go after World War II to help rebuild, but he didn't speak in conference.
01:02:51.760 --> 01:02:58.528
And it was a deliberate attempt to just tamp down the extremism that he was pushing.
01:02:59.289 --> 01:03:03.335
So a lot of these people, they hark back to President Benson.
01:03:03.375 --> 01:03:09.702
They will quote President Benson as if he were still the president of the church when he's been dead for over 30 years.
01:03:11.806 --> 01:03:24.958
But The word I get when I have conversations, you know, we just had this conversation with Matt Holland where he says thank you for defending the church and defending, you know, Aaron Sherinian.
01:03:24.978 --> 01:03:41.262
The other word I get is they know that this is a huge strain in the church, that there are huge groups of the church, this solid right, vicious, bully, terrible, whatever it is.
01:03:42.338 --> 01:03:45.222
and they don't know what to do about it.
01:03:46.344 --> 01:03:50.670
And here's where I'll get a little cynical.
01:03:52.472 --> 01:04:01.706
I think COVID exposed just how cafeteria Mormon those extremists are.
01:04:02.286 --> 01:04:06.000
The extremists see themselves as We are the true members of the church.
01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:12.210
We need to purge the church of all of these terrible people, separate the wheat from the tares, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:04:13.110 --> 01:04:28.313
And then COVID comes along and the church responds responsibly and calls for masks at sacrament meeting, calls for vaccinations, has a picture of President Nelson getting the vaccine with a mask on his face.
01:04:29.675 --> 01:04:33.041
And that hard right group, what do they do?
01:04:34.050 --> 01:04:35.172
They completely ignore him.
01:04:36.072 --> 01:04:38.396
And they say, you know, it's like, nope, nope, nope.
01:04:39.217 --> 01:04:40.599
You know, I'm not going to get the jab.
01:04:40.619 --> 01:04:42.742
You know, we were talking with Graham Stocks.
01:04:43.782 --> 01:04:45.885
He talks about the people who got the jab.
01:04:45.905 --> 01:04:49.471
I mean, that's language that anti-vaxxers use.
01:04:49.510 --> 01:04:50.351
They call it the jab.
01:04:50.431 --> 01:04:51.634
I call it a vaccination.
01:04:53.215 --> 01:05:03.630
But there are people that refuse to do that, despite the fact that the prophet that they insist I'm not loyal to asked them to do it, urged them to do it.
01:05:04.353 --> 01:05:05.856
And they leaned into the word urge.
01:05:05.896 --> 01:05:07.059
He didn't command us to do it.
01:05:07.099 --> 01:05:08.240
He urged us to do it.
01:05:09.443 --> 01:05:11.827
Well, guys, are you following the prophet or not?
01:05:11.927 --> 01:05:21.804
Because you don't get to turn around to me and say, all I say is I want to see more inclusion for LGBTQ people.
01:05:21.885 --> 01:05:23.027
You're not following the prophet.
01:05:24.248 --> 01:05:24.789
Yes, I am.
01:05:24.809 --> 01:05:28.396
I'm not performing gay weddings in the temple.
01:05:28.936 --> 01:05:32.585
I'm not petitioning the church to perform gay weddings in the temple.
01:05:33.045 --> 01:05:37.271
I am just saying I have a personal hope that there will be more inclusion.
01:05:37.532 --> 01:05:39.373
And I haven't even defined what that is.
01:05:40.235 --> 01:05:40.996
But that's not enough.
01:05:41.016 --> 01:05:41.456
That's evil.
01:05:41.856 --> 01:05:44.340
But here, the prophet has asked you to do something.
01:05:44.360 --> 01:05:45.782
You are refusing to do it.
01:05:45.802 --> 01:05:52.351
And how come you get to pretend that you're the faithful one and I'm the terrible apostate?
01:05:53.070 --> 01:05:54.793
So that's kind of the thing we're dealing with.
01:05:55.474 --> 01:06:04.405
I think if there is a criticism to be had here, It is not that the brethren are encouraging this.
01:06:05.547 --> 01:06:10.974
It's that the brethren don't seem to know how to stop it, how to confront it.
01:06:11.996 --> 01:06:14.579
And I hope some of them are listening to this.
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:19.367
I mean, I will have as many conversations offline as well as online.
01:06:20.248 --> 01:06:22.512
But this is a serious problem.
01:06:22.853 --> 01:06:26.398
It's not a serious problem because Jim Bennett's in trouble and I've been bullied.
01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:33.516
It's a serious problem because it does tremendous damage to the reputation of the church.
01:06:34.458 --> 01:06:39.422
People who don't know us think of us as a hard right organization, think of us as a Republican.
01:06:39.443 --> 01:06:56.101
You know, when I worked for a Democrat, when my father lost his Senate race, and then I went to work for the Democrat that was running in that race, Elder Stephen Snow, he came and said, I'm going to be your unofficial advisor.
01:06:56.833 --> 01:07:06.664
And he said, point blank, the church would like to see more Democrats elected because internationally we are seen as a Republican church.
01:07:07.065 --> 01:07:08.206
And we don't want to be seen.
01:07:08.226 --> 01:07:10.168
We want credible Democrats to be elected.
01:07:10.889 --> 01:07:16.835
So behind, I mean, I think behind the scenes, the brethren are just beside themselves.
01:07:17.815 --> 01:07:19.177
They don't know what to do about this.
01:07:19.617 --> 01:07:26.085
And I, anyway, so any of that make
01:07:26.144 --> 01:07:26.266
any
01:07:26.286 --> 01:07:26.525
sense?
01:07:27.074 --> 01:07:29.476
Yeah, no, it did make sense.
01:07:29.818 --> 01:07:36.226
I've got some thoughts here, and we're probably coming to the end of this podcast, but here's some thoughts here.
01:07:36.246 --> 01:07:47.943
I want to be clear, I don't believe there is any official church endorsement of these groups who are attacking you.
01:07:47.963 --> 01:07:49.003
I want to be clear about that.
01:07:49.784 --> 01:07:53.030
Secondly, I do believe that...
01:07:53.442 --> 01:08:10.851
There are personal endorsements between jail authorities and certain state presidents and members of the church who, for perhaps good reason that the church sees, under the Perfection of the Saints Committee policies and procedures and etc., that there are individuals in the church that the church sees as a threat.
01:08:11.411 --> 01:08:11.952
That's not new.
01:08:12.813 --> 01:08:13.255
That's not new.
01:08:13.355 --> 01:08:19.626
You know, the church has had threats since the very beginning, since its inception, right through.
01:08:20.130 --> 01:08:23.212
The church is facing threats right now, and it needs to be aware of what those...
01:08:23.554 --> 01:08:29.860
If you put yourself in the shoes of the General Authority of the Apostles, what are those threats?
01:08:30.621 --> 01:08:31.561
These are rhetorical questions.
01:08:31.622 --> 01:08:32.443
What are those threats?
01:08:33.083 --> 01:08:33.965
Where are they coming from?
01:08:33.984 --> 01:08:36.467
How do we rank those threats?
01:08:36.667 --> 01:08:37.769
How do we scorecard them?
01:08:38.930 --> 01:08:40.231
How frequent are they?
01:08:40.351 --> 01:08:41.432
How serious are they?
01:08:41.873 --> 01:08:42.814
Where do they come from?
01:08:42.854 --> 01:08:44.737
That's risk management.
01:08:45.197 --> 01:08:47.899
The church has a risk management division, for goodness sake.
01:08:49.041 --> 01:08:59.173
And Again, if it's like a corporation, if you look at it like a corporation, it's important that a corporation or business has a risk management division.
01:08:59.895 --> 01:09:05.962
I deal with risk management in the workplace in terms of the projects I get involved in, project risk management.
01:09:06.082 --> 01:09:07.545
What are the threats?
01:09:07.564 --> 01:09:08.265
What are the risks?
01:09:08.766 --> 01:09:15.496
The church, very intelligent, has to understandably identify risks to the church.
01:09:15.936 --> 01:09:17.479
That makes sense.
01:09:17.979 --> 01:09:20.654
If you put yourself in that position, That makes sense.
01:09:20.975 --> 01:09:34.148
Secondly, I firmly believe that a lot of the things that are said at the pulpit general conference, some of it, maybe a lot's too far, but some of it does not translate to right and foul members.
01:09:34.568 --> 01:09:39.872
For some reason, it just doesn't translate or get to that or change that thinking.
01:09:39.912 --> 01:09:47.701
You've got this old-fashioned traditional author thinking that's never going away with the members.
01:09:47.761 --> 01:09:49.082
It'll only go away when they die off.
01:09:50.018 --> 01:10:03.752
That old, archaic, antiquated thinking from the old prophets that comes from that traditional orthodox thinking, which has now been challenged by modern, it might be more advanced thinking, that will only go away when people die.
01:10:04.112 --> 01:10:06.395
People die in the church, the prophets will die.
01:10:07.115 --> 01:10:11.000
Careful, you're threatening, you're openly threatening the general authorities.
01:10:11.260 --> 01:10:14.262
I'm not trying to threaten at the same time.
01:10:14.283 --> 01:10:17.046
I think people's opinions, sometimes people don't change.
01:10:17.537 --> 01:10:19.560
They just won't change their thinking.
01:10:19.940 --> 01:10:28.832
And they quote back to some ancient, you know, ancient, some quote from Wilford Woodruff or Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Bruce M.
01:10:28.851 --> 01:10:31.135
McConkie, George Philip Smith, etc.
01:10:31.694 --> 01:10:39.505
And, you know, even Elder Ballard, who talks about suicide in one of his talks, quotes Bruce M.
01:10:39.524 --> 01:10:46.432
McConkie in some very strong, in my opinion, inappropriate doctrine and positions on suicide.
01:10:47.054 --> 01:10:51.319
That's not going away until people pass away.
01:10:51.340 --> 01:10:54.363
Some people just, their opinions disappear when they disappear.
01:10:55.465 --> 01:10:56.426
And that's just a reality.
01:10:56.646 --> 01:10:59.951
Also, I think we have a very different relationship at the stake level.
01:11:00.030 --> 01:11:08.202
I've said at least twice on previous podcasts, the real activity and decisions and influence on the membership happens at the stake level.
01:11:09.023 --> 01:11:12.203
Not the bishops, but It's the stake president.
01:11:12.502 --> 01:11:13.604
That's it, the key holder.
01:11:14.045 --> 01:11:18.909
The stake president controls a huge portion of the church.
01:11:19.671 --> 01:11:20.912
Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
01:11:21.393 --> 01:11:28.421
So this direct line between stake presidents and general authorities, you know, the stake presences have to follow the line, right?
01:11:29.082 --> 01:11:36.088
Any threat that's coming from anyone in a particular stake will be reported and dealt with.
01:11:36.609 --> 01:11:42.140
Yeah, there's influence and doctrine, and there'll be those conversations privately with general authorities, The state president's got the keys to deal with it.
01:11:42.319 --> 01:11:46.243
He can excommunicate him because he preached it all, but a bishop can't, right?
01:11:46.923 --> 01:11:49.206
So it happens at the state level.
01:11:49.365 --> 01:11:50.707
I want to emphasize that, right?
01:11:53.591 --> 01:11:55.332
The other thing as well is the...
01:11:58.095 --> 01:12:05.442
We talked about living or behaving within the lanes and used the word guardrails.
01:12:06.682 --> 01:12:09.445
I believe that you are...
01:12:09.793 --> 01:12:21.113
On the inside, just on the inside of those guardrails, on many of your thoughts, I think you've got, in some ways, traditional, perhaps a little bit orthodox thinking on certain topics, perhaps.
01:12:21.914 --> 01:12:24.420
But on others, you are closer to the edge.
01:12:25.320 --> 01:12:26.904
You're on the inside of the edge.
01:12:28.006 --> 01:12:29.368
You called it a guardrail.
01:12:29.948 --> 01:12:31.511
And I think that's a good thing.
01:12:31.551 --> 01:12:34.797
And I tell you what else I think that thinks it's a good thing as well.
01:12:35.329 --> 01:12:47.884
I believe those general authorities, Matt Holland and other general authorities that know you directly, directly, need and want you, people like you, to be on the inside of the edge.
01:12:48.384 --> 01:12:49.185
So why do I say that?
01:12:49.926 --> 01:12:58.274
I say that because the church is trying to reposition itself in this new world thinking, this new liberal world thinking.
01:12:58.895 --> 01:12:59.917
It knows it has to.
01:13:00.778 --> 01:13:04.601
It has to respond and deal with LGBTQ rights.
01:13:05.345 --> 01:13:11.434
is still dealing with blacks of the priesthood, trying to move away from, trying to modernize itself, I believe.
01:13:11.474 --> 01:13:18.063
I believe there are modernizers in the leadership gym at the apostle level and the general authority level.
01:13:19.163 --> 01:13:21.127
I think I would go to class and say, I know that.
01:13:22.207 --> 01:13:31.280
I know some of them, not as many as perhaps yourself, but I believe and got good reason to believe that there are modernizers in the church and there's a battle going on.
01:13:31.962 --> 01:13:32.842
Sometimes it's civil.
01:13:32.962 --> 01:13:38.966
Sometimes it's arguments and fallouts, just like, with your dad and President Benson, that can get probably quite heated.
01:13:39.368 --> 01:13:41.470
I think Elder Bednar said it can get quite heated.
01:13:41.551 --> 01:13:48.561
But when the conversation's over and we've discussed it in council, they all line up and follow the prophet.
01:13:48.582 --> 01:13:50.163
I think Elder Bednar's talked about that.
01:13:50.524 --> 01:13:52.067
Those conversations continue.
01:13:52.087 --> 01:13:53.609
I think they're very strong.
01:13:53.630 --> 01:13:55.693
I think you've got a number of different camps.
01:13:55.773 --> 01:13:56.694
You've got the liberal camp.
01:13:56.713 --> 01:13:58.096
You've got the conservative camp in there.
01:13:58.877 --> 01:14:01.702
And slowly but surely, it's like a...
01:14:06.082 --> 01:14:10.328
That competition where, what is it called?
01:14:10.347 --> 01:14:12.270
You've got two teams.
01:14:12.331 --> 01:14:13.212
It's the tow rope.
01:14:13.573 --> 01:14:15.034
Tug of war.
01:14:15.756 --> 01:14:19.862
Yes, I just couldn't remember what it was called for a moment there.
01:14:20.322 --> 01:14:21.002
Lost my thought.
01:14:21.423 --> 01:14:22.024
Tug of war.
01:14:22.845 --> 01:14:29.154
And you've got a few more liberals, modernizers, on one side than the other side.
01:14:29.435 --> 01:14:31.097
I think this is an appropriate analogy.
01:14:31.746 --> 01:14:36.853
There is a battle going on right now with the tug of war and the liberals and the modernizers are winning.
01:14:36.912 --> 01:14:39.657
But boy, hell, what a tough battle it is.
01:14:39.877 --> 01:14:41.800
And the conservative side are digging in.
01:14:42.340 --> 01:14:46.907
You've got some of the heavyweights there on the other side who have got more power and they're digging in.
01:14:47.146 --> 01:14:47.948
But they are moving.
01:14:48.689 --> 01:15:01.025
Slowly but surely, I think there is this battle, this tussle, this wrestle in the tug of war analogy where the modernizers, liberals are actually winning just a few inches in there on different things.
01:15:01.377 --> 01:15:10.230
And I think the church, for the most part, the leaders there, need and want you to be on the inside of the edge because that helps them.
01:15:10.551 --> 01:15:11.792
It helps the modernizers.
01:15:11.974 --> 01:15:24.872
Someone like you, your background, you know, the CES letter response, which has been used by mission presidents and been described as a very positive response to the CES letter, which has caused a lot of problems for the church.
01:15:24.932 --> 01:15:26.876
Again, CES letter is a threat to the church.
01:15:26.916 --> 01:15:28.176
They'll have talked about that.
01:15:28.658 --> 01:15:31.181
They'll have said, guys, this CES letter is a problem.
01:15:31.841 --> 01:15:33.063
Jim Bennett has responded.
01:15:33.823 --> 01:15:35.907
And so they need and want people like you.
01:15:36.186 --> 01:15:40.551
There are people in the church that I think want to see you gone, just like with me, right?
01:15:40.952 --> 01:15:52.944
These are these people on the other side of the tug of war, the old-fashioned, entrenched, dug-in, conservative thinking that see you as completely outside of that lane.
01:15:53.386 --> 01:15:58.851
And that lane, by the way, I think is widening to incorporate or to bring in some of that more liberal thinking.
01:15:58.872 --> 01:16:00.514
So the lane itself is changing.
01:16:00.898 --> 01:16:19.940
But the church is, the leaders, I think, will come to the conclusion that it's better off to have the Jim Bennetts in the church, on the inside of the edge, helping them in their tug of war to reposition them and move the church into a more modern way of thinking.
01:16:20.201 --> 01:16:27.210
It's going to take a long time, but I think you're part of the solution generally compared to part of the problem.
01:16:27.449 --> 01:16:30.533
So the problem, on the other side, that's where these groups come from.
01:16:30.978 --> 01:16:32.539
These Twitter groups, they attack you.
01:16:32.579 --> 01:16:34.681
They're that old-fashioned thinking.
01:16:34.721 --> 01:16:36.703
They're not going to change their opinion.
01:16:36.743 --> 01:16:40.306
They're not endorsed by the church leaders, I don't believe.
01:16:41.368 --> 01:17:03.012
But on the other side, I think you've got a lot of people, more people at different levels of the church who actually see you as an instrument, actually, and a help to help the church move in the direction that it's trying to do notwithstanding how difficult that tug of war is going on.
01:17:03.172 --> 01:17:12.261
So, yeah, these are my thoughts in regards to how this whole Twitter feed was going on.
01:17:12.322 --> 01:17:14.104
And I think these are the forces at play.
01:17:14.123 --> 01:17:15.765
These are the motivations.
01:17:16.305 --> 01:17:23.192
I don't think, as long as you stay on the inside of the edge, you're not at risk of being thrown out.
01:17:24.873 --> 01:17:32.001
At any point where you might step out, but remain most of the time in, the percentage that you're out, but 90% you're in.
01:17:32.702 --> 01:17:38.887
I think as long as that percentage that you're in is higher, you're safe.
01:17:39.109 --> 01:18:07.783
As soon as you start spending more time, in my opinion, outside of the inside of the edge, where I am, I go on the outside of that membership edge and my outside range is quite considerably, depending on the topic, But if you're spending more time outside of those guardrails, then I believe the church leadership will see you as a threat.
01:18:07.823 --> 01:18:08.703
Your name will come up.
01:18:09.104 --> 01:18:10.586
It's probably come up already.
01:18:11.305 --> 01:18:14.529
But if you stay on the inside of the edge there, I think you're fine.
01:18:14.930 --> 01:18:18.412
And I think that's where you want to be.
01:18:18.512 --> 01:18:25.439
I think if you saw it like that, and you probably do, you're a strong advocate for modernization of the church.
01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:28.875
And that's great that that we need more Jim Bennetts.
01:18:29.456 --> 01:18:36.162
Me, I'm, according to feedback I got, the church is better off without me.
01:18:36.523 --> 01:18:39.426
I'm a lost soul, but I'm not a member.
01:18:39.485 --> 01:18:44.671
They don't see me as it's right because, in some ways, because I'm not a member of the church.
01:18:44.810 --> 01:18:47.993
And so what I say is my own opinion because I'm not a member.
01:18:48.454 --> 01:18:58.904
I think the membership, that their opinion is attached to membership because we said that when people leave the church, the people that you're leaving take it personally.
01:18:59.144 --> 01:19:12.457
It's like a golf club where you don't agree with the golf policies or the etiquette on the golf course or you're part of a club or something or a gym club and you have a question about something, you don't quite agree with it, and so you leave and go join another club.
01:19:13.238 --> 01:19:20.747
The rest of the members are not offended because you didn't agree with the policy or a particular rule of the golf club or whatever, right?
01:19:20.787 --> 01:19:33.256
They're not, hey, you know, we're taking it personally because you're not part of a club and good riddance, you're not part of the golf club, but anymore, and you never belonged here, and you shouldn't be questioning the golf club policies, right?
01:19:34.257 --> 01:19:35.819
But in the church, that's the culture.
01:19:36.399 --> 01:19:40.384
If you leave, or you question, or you place any doubts, that's the wrong question.
01:19:40.765 --> 01:19:41.765
They take it personally.
01:19:42.587 --> 01:19:43.368
And where does that come from?
01:19:43.427 --> 01:19:53.639
That comes from the doctrine, it comes from the culture, and because our souls, our personalities, our character is deeply entrenched into the doctrine.
01:19:54.019 --> 01:20:08.635
So my advice is that if you're staying in the church, and actually be an instrument in the hands of the Lord, you stay just on the inside of the edge there enough for you to keep your membership.
01:20:08.654 --> 01:20:16.750
But I can step out every once in a while, maybe go deal drugs, something like that.
01:20:17.185 --> 01:20:18.287
Not quite, not quite.
01:20:18.307 --> 01:20:20.613
I think it depends on...
01:20:20.632 --> 01:20:21.895
That's a joke, people.
01:20:22.395 --> 01:20:23.377
I know, I know it was.
01:20:23.478 --> 01:20:27.286
And people that know you, I know you for a long time.
01:20:27.666 --> 01:20:28.547
You are a good man.
01:20:28.889 --> 01:20:30.230
You're a good husband, you're a good father.
01:20:30.652 --> 01:20:31.935
You're a decent guy.
01:20:31.954 --> 01:20:33.637
You're not perfect.
01:20:34.238 --> 01:20:35.921
Your opinions are always correct.
01:20:37.805 --> 01:20:39.869
No, I'm going to push back on that one.
01:20:39.970 --> 01:20:42.033
Indians are always correct.
01:20:42.113 --> 01:20:43.234
The others stop fine, but...
01:20:43.534 --> 01:20:44.997
I
01:20:45.556 --> 01:20:45.757
know.
01:20:45.938 --> 01:20:47.279
And that's okay, right?
01:20:47.319 --> 01:20:49.202
That's okay to have a different opinion.
01:20:49.261 --> 01:20:58.795
You just be freely and think and feel and say what we think and have a civil accord and agree to disagree.
01:20:58.854 --> 01:20:59.815
And it's okay.
01:20:59.877 --> 01:21:01.238
That's what makes the world rich.
01:21:01.278 --> 01:21:02.300
We have different opinions, right?
01:21:02.961 --> 01:21:06.125
And it depends on what topic you're going outside the guardrails on.
01:21:06.185 --> 01:21:06.926
I want to add that.
01:21:07.426 --> 01:21:10.109
And it depends how long you're staying out there for as well.
01:21:10.229 --> 01:21:20.701
So there's certain conditions been applied to the Jim Bennett membership that if he does this for too long on a particular topic, then we could perhaps see that as a problem.
01:21:21.442 --> 01:21:25.105
I don't think you're a threat to the church right now, but...
01:21:27.850 --> 01:21:29.171
I don't...
01:21:30.632 --> 01:21:33.115
I don't believe the church sees me as a threat.
01:21:34.317 --> 01:21:35.198
I...
01:21:35.394 --> 01:21:38.177
I have reason to believe they see me as an asset.
01:21:39.319 --> 01:21:57.927
I think that, so I remember I had a conversation, we're way over time here, but I had a conversation with John DeLint after I had all of, after we'd talked, you know, for 15 hours in his podcast.
01:21:59.149 --> 01:22:01.854
And we talked about my CES letter reply.
01:22:02.561 --> 01:22:14.617
And I've said on here, the secretary of the Quorum of the Twelve presented research to Book of Mormon Central, that's now Scripture Plus, they call themselves.
01:22:14.636 --> 01:22:15.858
They used to be Book of Mormon Central.
01:22:16.739 --> 01:22:23.807
And they said, we have research that shows how much damage the CES letter has done to the church.
01:22:24.989 --> 01:22:31.578
And we have research that says there is only one thing that mitigates it, and that's Jim Bennett's CES letter reply.
01:22:32.770 --> 01:22:37.396
And so I thought, okay, you've paid attention to me.
01:22:37.436 --> 01:22:38.859
You've noticed that I've been helpful.
01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:41.502
So I don't think they see me as a threat.
01:22:41.542 --> 01:22:53.881
But as I was talking to John Dillon offline about that, I said, you know, I don't really understand that.
01:22:54.020 --> 01:23:06.073
I don't really understand why the church hasn't done something like what I've done officially, because I think that if the church did that, they'd be in a better, stronger position.
01:23:06.333 --> 01:23:28.865
And John pushed back and said, no, I think the church very much appreciates that you did it so that their fingerprints can't be on it, because the central message of my reply is an admission that church leaders can be wrong.
01:23:30.210 --> 01:23:33.193
And I frame that as a feature and not a bug.
01:23:34.033 --> 01:23:40.421
You know, the whole idea of mortality is we were going to come here to this earth and we were going to make mistakes and we were going to screw up.
01:23:41.101 --> 01:23:42.103
And that's why we came.
01:23:42.182 --> 01:23:43.145
We came to learn.
01:23:43.725 --> 01:23:47.550
We came to be able to, you know, prove them they're here with.
01:23:50.712 --> 01:23:53.896
Mistakes are the reason for mortality.
01:23:55.097 --> 01:24:00.724
We learn from them and we should anticipate that The church is going to make them too.
01:24:01.945 --> 01:24:09.556
And John Dillon said the church can't make that argument or isn't in a place yet where they can make that argument.
01:24:09.637 --> 01:24:13.082
And so they're glad that you are doing that from a faithful perspective.
01:24:13.904 --> 01:24:15.345
So I think that's probably true.
01:24:15.426 --> 01:24:21.614
And I think they kind of appreciate that I'm on that edge for the reasons you've talked about too.
01:24:21.734 --> 01:24:23.478
So anyway, we'll see.
01:24:23.518 --> 01:24:31.628
But I think the church is better off with you even with where you are on the other side of the edge.
01:24:32.930 --> 01:24:34.873
I think that you're doing a tremendous service.
01:24:34.974 --> 01:24:41.141
And I think the fact, I have a lot of people listen and go, you know, Ian sometimes sounds like he's a bigger believer than you are.
01:24:41.162 --> 01:24:44.886
I'm like, well, Ian is a good man.
01:24:44.907 --> 01:24:49.231
And Ian is a man of faith and a man of decency and integrity.
01:24:49.332 --> 01:24:56.442
And so I very much enjoy doing this and very much appreciate you giving me the opportunity to vent.
01:24:57.314 --> 01:24:57.634
So
01:24:58.494 --> 01:25:10.729
as I said earlier, this is a very important conversation for you, for us, for our podcast, for your family, friends, et cetera, the people that know you and love you and trust you and know the person that you are, et cetera.
01:25:10.769 --> 01:25:32.505
And it's another reminder, I think, to our listeners that our podcast, our central premise of the podcast is to discuss the wonderful, extraordinary things that the church does It does an extraordinary amount of good and blesses lives in so many ways.
01:25:33.407 --> 01:25:35.069
And the members are extraordinary.
01:25:35.310 --> 01:25:36.371
And there's some great leaders.
01:25:36.390 --> 01:25:39.496
We have some wonderful leaders in the church.
01:25:40.358 --> 01:25:41.979
And the church is a force for good.
01:25:43.061 --> 01:25:46.067
On the other side, the church has challenges, problems.
01:25:46.488 --> 01:25:47.309
It knows that.
01:25:47.628 --> 01:25:48.511
It's struggling with that.
01:25:48.530 --> 01:25:49.972
It's trying to reconcile that.
01:25:50.293 --> 01:25:53.599
It makes mistakes in trying to figure that out.
01:25:53.679 --> 01:26:30.327
It makes a lot of mistakes in trying to address things and then it fumbles over itself and it often does more harm to itself than anyone ever could in terms of it's a threat to its own existence but it has to be open and transparent about these issues it has to allow people members to to think and feel freely to express themselves without feeling threatened to ask questions that's why i couldn't go anymore i couldn't couldn't ask questions anymore, and I felt unsafe, and it was affecting my mental health.
01:26:30.407 --> 01:26:31.467
It was driving me crazy.
01:26:32.288 --> 01:26:34.631
And the church has got to figure this out.
01:26:34.971 --> 01:26:36.833
And I believe it will.
01:26:37.293 --> 01:26:39.617
I really do, even though I've gone through my own...
01:26:44.561 --> 01:26:49.966
That night of the soul experience, I've been rejected and cut off.
01:26:50.547 --> 01:26:52.369
I still see the goodness in the church.
01:26:53.025 --> 01:26:55.469
And I love the balance with the podcast.
01:26:55.488 --> 01:27:00.395
You know, when things, you know, you're on the inside and you kind of, for good reason, criticize the church.
01:27:01.074 --> 01:27:06.320
I sometimes see a silver lining sometimes in some of the things that it does.
01:27:06.902 --> 01:27:07.722
I think it's a good balance.
01:27:07.823 --> 01:27:10.827
And so we look at, we address the issues and talk about the problems.
01:27:11.247 --> 01:27:13.609
We want the church to get better, Jim, don't we?
01:27:14.029 --> 01:27:14.871
We want it to improve.
01:27:14.970 --> 01:27:17.253
We want it to be a good experience for everyone.
01:27:17.274 --> 01:27:18.274
We want it to be inclusive.
01:27:19.457 --> 01:27:57.125
And I believe that if it rebuilds and reposition itself around those universal fundamental principles of Christ-like love and kindness, forgiveness, not judgment, different thoughts and opinions, respect freedoms, respect freedom of speech, etc., freedom of opinion, teaches, as I say, those universal principles of kindness and generosity and inclusiveness, it will be, and I believe that will happen, it will become a better church.
01:27:58.225 --> 01:28:09.697
And it will take time for reasons that we talked about, but I'm hopeful that the church will be a very different, more inclusive experience for people 10, 20 years from now.
01:28:10.056 --> 01:28:11.918
It's that tug of war analogy.
01:28:11.939 --> 01:28:18.786
I think the group of people that will improve the church, I think they're winning.
01:28:20.002 --> 01:28:28.171
But it's a really difficult battle, and it's one digging step at a time.
01:28:29.394 --> 01:28:34.699
And they've got another maybe 30 or 20 feet to get that ribbon on the rope over the line.
01:28:35.780 --> 01:28:39.085
And there's people cheering on both sides.
01:28:39.126 --> 01:28:43.010
We didn't talk about in that analogy the audience there.
01:28:43.050 --> 01:28:49.158
They've got people cheering from the hardliners, the people that pack you, I think.
01:28:49.442 --> 01:28:51.904
at least include some of those people.
01:28:52.546 --> 01:28:57.412
And then you've got the other group who are cheering for the modernizers, right?
01:28:58.313 --> 01:29:04.421
It's a battle, but I think in the end, I think the church will improve and we'll get better.
01:29:05.823 --> 01:29:07.345
And we'll let that be the last word.
01:29:07.925 --> 01:29:17.528
So we appreciate all of you listening to this and thank you for taking the time to spend with us and We'll see you next time on Inside Out.
01:29:17.770 --> 01:29:18.717
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:29:18.759 --> 01:29:19.747
Thank you, Jim.