WEBVTT
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It's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days.
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And really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi man.
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Yeah.
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And how do we find that out?
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Chemsex.
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Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
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Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
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Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
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Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
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Thank you for being here.
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Appreciate you listening.
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We just we celebrated a milestone in the month of May.
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Over 50,000 downloads.
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Thank you very much.
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We are at over a thousand downloads a week right now.
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And just to give you an idea, when we first started, uh we were at probably one to two hundred downloads a week.
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So over two years now, a little over two years, we've we've really really increased, we've really grown.
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Really glad to see that.
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And thanks to you guys who have rated and reviewed the podcast and continue to download it.
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You're telling the algorithm that we like this.
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Um and so thank you so much for your support.
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Don't forget there's a supplemental study guide with every episode.
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The link will be in the show notes if you're interested.
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Just click on there if you want to take a deeper dive in what we're talking about.
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And what are we talking about?
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What we're talking about today is app hygiene.
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Um, and specifically with grinder, we'll probably touch on the other ones too.
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Um, but you know, if you watch my content, you're gonna hear me say a lot about block line block grinder, block access to grind.
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And I do believe in early chemsex recovery that is necessary.
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Um, I I don't think it, you know, I've had some clients come through the program who didn't block grinder from their phone.
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And I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying not have it on your phone.
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I'm saying put a block on your phone so that you cannot access it.
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There's a difference, right?
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Um, but but what do you do for the rest of your life?
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Do you do you do you stay grinderless?
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And in the world we're living in, it's moving more and more to geosocial dating apps as the way to meet people.
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We have clubs, clubs, and bars shutting down all over the place because people aren't meeting people in person anymore.
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So, what can we do with this?
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So, today we're going to talk to an expert about this, Michael Power.
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So, Mike is an addiction counselor with over 15 years of experience working with chemsex, sexual compulsive behaviors, trauma, and LGBTQ mental health.
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He has worked in LGBTQ plus rehabilitation centers in Thailand, supporting individuals navigating addiction, identity, intimacy, and recovery within a compassionate, trauma-informed environment.
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Mike is passionate about reducing stigma and encouraging honest, informed conversations around Crystal Matthews, sexuality, mental health, and recovery.
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Love the sound of all of that.
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Mike, welcome to the show.
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Wonderful.
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Thank you so much, Dallas.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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Yeah.
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Well, we met on LinkedIn, and I was I have really enjoyed reading your articles that you've been posting.
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Um, really good stuff and centered around Chemsex.
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But specifically, I noticed you were talking about Grinder and Appygiene, and like basically saying, look, if you're going to be on it, here's how to do it.
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So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with chemsex and how you got here?
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Yeah, yeah, okay.
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So um I'm Mike.
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Uh pleased, pleased to meet you.
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Um, my experience in chemsex, actually, I was doing meth because I don't think it was actually called chemsex um back in those days.
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It was just chem chem chem it was just methamphetamine.
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And I was actually using it in the United States and um Australia.
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Um I actually started my own journey of recovery in Los Angeles and went to treatment in in Australia, and then when I came back to London, the there was methadrone, um, which I don't believe is that big in the United States, but Crystal Meth was just starting to come onto the scene.
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Um, I wanted to save London from this evil addiction that was going around America and and and Australia, and was going to do this big campaign just to raise everybody's awareness.
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And of course, I never had the skills to do that.
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Um, but I did meet a wonderful guy who um coined the term chemsex, um, and his name is David Stewart, who's no longer with us, unfortunately.
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Um, and I did some training with him, then I started volunteering in an LGBT drug and alcohol service there, you know, just making teas, coffees, then I started doing assessments.
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Um honestly it was like a war zone because nobody really knew anything about Crystal Math or GHB about about back then.
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So people were really presented in quite chaotic states.
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However, for me, because I was looking for work, I just I'm actually okay at this.
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So but what I also realized was I actually, you know, it's very complex, and I was working with very vulnerable people.
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Um so then then went off and studied and went to university and studied to be an addiction counsellor, and that's kind of how I ended up where I am now, and that was 15 years ago, yeah.
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Wow, 15 years.
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15 years so what have you seen as the biggest change over this 15 years?
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I I I think just education is is is is the biggest thing.
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People are more informed.
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Um, where where they never used to.
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It was a really new phenomenon because the apps were just kind of coming into play then.
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So it was like the perfect storm, really, and you know, intravenous use was never really a thing in the gay community, and it was becoming sexualized, and there was a massive rise, of course, in hepsi.
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Um PEP was around back in those days, but PrEP wasn't so HIV rates also skyrocketed.
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So I think probably what what I've seen mostly now is is that people are more informed um around how to take the drugs if they inject, they know how to inject safely.
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If they take GHB, they know how to dose safe second.
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I do believe that it's probably reducing a little bit in in severity from an addiction perspective, but I'll be quite honest with you, because I'm not working frontline anymore, you know, when I was frontline, I was really in the chaos.
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I I'm a little bit out of the loop in what's actually happening.
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And I I don't obviously don't engage in that world myself.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, okay.
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Yeah, the education, that's it's interesting to me when gay gay men will comment on my social media and say, What is this?
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Is there a meth problem?
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In the in the gay community, I'm like, where the fuck have you been?
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Like, how how can you not know?
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Because I will say, any mostly, I would say 99% of people that I meet, if you're a gay man, you know somebody who has had a meth problem or you've had one.
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Yeah.
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Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like that.
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But I'm just really shocked by the people that don't understand it or don't know it, or still, still getting into it.
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These in 2026 still don't know what it is when the pipe's handed to them.
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Do you see that?
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Yeah, yeah.
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I don't know.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Well, it's also a sex problem, isn't it?
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You know, and and I think that's why the term um chem sex is good, because they become fused, they become fused together.
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It almost becomes one one one problem.
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And when we take the drugs out of the equation, and we do have to work on the psychosexual piece as well, which is really important.
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Hence why I write about the erotic desire cycle and um ap hygiene.
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It's more really that second stage of of treatment, you know, where you've kind of put the drugs aside, but but now you're reintegrating a healthy sober sexuality.
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That that's often where people slip up because it's frightening, right?
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When if I've used a drug to facilitate my sex for for many, many years, then re-engaging in sexual activity is incredibly frightening.
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So we have to kind of tippy toe into that, really.
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Yes, yes.
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So that's definitely number one question I get, number one hurdle that I see too.
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Um, and really kind of what's missing from my own program, which is why I'm working on my sexologist, my sexology certificate, is to try to get in there and help with this.
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Um, but you're right.
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So let's say you get away from the substance, you get some momentum, you've got some recovery going, and now I want to have sex.
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Right.
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Um, so let's talk about two things here.
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So you talked about an erotic desire cycle.
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Well just for a side note for those listening, where would I get how would I start that process?
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It's interesting because like like you, I was also stuck with that because my training is in addiction.
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And I'm very good at relapse prevention, triggers, ages, you know, all those skills.
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But but when it came to the second stage of of treatment, of how do I now reintegrate sex of my choosing, and that's the important bit, is is that I I actually went and did a psychosexual course myself.
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And it was when I was doing that course that I'd actually thought, actually, okay, I think I'm getting it.
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And I and I'll be honest with you, just also from my own personal experience of intimacy, I was kind of being a little bit experiential.
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It was like, I okay, so if we have the first the first bit of the erotic desire cycle is really just connection because connection equals safety.
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And it's really also important when we're talking about connection, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for a partner.
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It can actually just mean connection.
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So I'm being transparent.
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These are my needs.
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I'm not looking for a quick hookup.
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Um I I I'm I'm looking for longevity and and I quit.
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I I like to do this and I like to do that, and maybe actually if I don't feel safe, maybe we're not going to have sex right there and then.
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Or maybe actually it is the opposite.
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Maybe I want to meet for a coffee um first, and if we gel, then maybe we can meet again, but I'm not gonna have sex until I feel safe.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Yes.
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So do you coach coach men on how to have that conversation?
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Um, I I would, especially, especially in group work, I I do the erotic desire cycle.
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I mean, it's interesting because when you first start to explain it, most most people's go-to is, well, I don't want a boyfriend.
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Right.
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But but it's it's talking about boyfriends.
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This is really just about creating safety, because when I have safety, then then I can get erotic desire.
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Because if we think about meth and sex and what it was facilitating, even though it's very toxic, it was facilitating safety.
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It was facilitating confidence.
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It was facilitating me being able to talk and communicate and not to be scared just to have sex.
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When we take meth out of the equation, then we have to look at an alternative way of kind of finding safety.
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And unfortunately that takes a lot longer than just obviously putting a pipe in your mouth.
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Right.
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Right.
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Meth is the ultimate shortcut to all of this, right?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Mm-hmm.
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And I think you know, I I see a lot of men they they're DMing me or I talk to them or they're on the or on social media and they'll say, It's been 10 years.
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I've been, you know, sober ten years, but I've never had sex.
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Or fifth fifteen years.
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I don't even you know, I don't even want to try to have sex.
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And they they don't believe that it's possible.
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Or they'll say, I'll never have Tina sex again, so why have sex?
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Right.
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Right.
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But what a way to live.
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To just accept that.
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Well that's what I mean about the fear part of it, that when we take the drugs out of the equation, it is a real fear.
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Yeah.
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You know, it's a fear.
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I don't know how to do this.
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Yeah.
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And actually, can I find a person that's gonna be patient enough with me so I can do this and understand my need for safety?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That's why I think we need a chemsex surrogate partner program, like a rent in.
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Yeah.
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But right, but with chemsex, somebody that uh gets the assignment and and knows how to provide the space for the man to explore that.
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Yeah.
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Well what is in it's it's it's interesting here here in the UK, there was an article a few years back.
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I'm not sure it's even online and anymore.
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And it was about sex workers, S goods.
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Um one one article was really about the sex working community getting addicted to meth.
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Yes.
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Um, which which which which they are, it's quite big in in that community.
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And one article around a sex worker that found recovery and got sober, he was actually uh providing the service for other people that are engaged in recovery.
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So almost like a sex therapy book, kind of hands-on sex therapy.
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Personally, I thought it was a wonderful service.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I think so too.
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Yeah, I mean, I have a client who I've I've suggested go to rent men.
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I mean, you know, there's plenty of them that don't use here.
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I mean, there's some that say no P and P, no, no drugs or whatever.
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But you look, you get to there's no strings attached, there's no pressure.
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If you come, you come.
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If you get tired, you get hard.
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And that's the kind of environment you want.
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And then you they get to they're they're gonna do what you tell them to do, you know.
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So and he's like, Well, I don't want to pay for sex.
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And I was like, Well, you're actually paying for a recovery service.
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Right?
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You can see it that way.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's really challenging because because here in the UK, um, you know, mef meth is really, really big uh amongst the sex workers.
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So Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, it is here too, but um okay.
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So this erotic desire cycle, we're talking about connection equals safety.
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And like you said, like I don't want a boyfriend.
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It's like when you mention the word intimacy, I get that a lot too.
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Well, I don't want to I don't want to uh uh be vanilla with a man.
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I don't want to be cuddly.
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Like intimacy doesn't it doesn't have to mean vanilla cuddles.
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Right?
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No, absolutely absolutely, because what what you're doing theoretically is creating the safety first, because that's where the connection comes in.
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You're you're creating the safety to enjoy whatever sexual experience you wish to have.
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You know, what whether whether that is vanilla or whether that's kink or BDSM, um it doesn't matter, but what you're doing is creating a safety.
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What's nice about the erotic desire cycle, my my experience of working with men when they come in recovery is that when when they do engage in sex, it's just really, really disappointing.
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Yeah.
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Um it's too quick, it's over in five minutes, and and actually that can that can create a trigger in itself.
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You know, what was the point?
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Why why did I spend an hour prepping for this like five-minute wonder?
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So so this idea that we're only capable of having one orgasm, and with with the eroting desire cycle, it's actually aimed at if you wish that you have more than one orgasm, because once we orgasm, then we're gonna release oxytocin.
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And if you hang around long enough and you don't jump out of the bed or the sling, wherever you are, uh and and kind of push yourself down and run out the door and say thank you, thank you very much.
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Right.
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And actually allow yourself to be a little bit vulnerable, then a secondary erotic desire can can occur.
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And then that creates a longevity to the experience, right?
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Because this is where I got stuck um when when trying to think how we can work through this in recovery from a sexual perspective, is that for a lot of people it was around the connection and the longevity, and actually the drug-induced intimacy, right?
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So, how do we recreate that?
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Yeah.
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Tyson is a wonderful chemical that gets released as long as we don't block it with shame.
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If we block it with shame, then it kind of blocks it.
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And that's when a person like post-orgasm, you're like, Thank you, running out the door.
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I call it the gate of shame, right?
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The gate of shame kicks in.
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And it's very unconscious, but it's that uncomfortability that when you've orgasmed, it's almost like coming down off a drug, isn't it?
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You hit reality.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:08.079
But if you can stay in the experience long enough and really utilize the oxytocin, then you can have a secondary or even a third erotic arousal if it's a good day, right?
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.279
And then you can leave there thinking, actually, that was a really nice experience, right?
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.160
It wasn't empty, it wasn't over in five minutes.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.079
I actually got connection.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:23.440
Um, I had great, great sex, and it doesn't matter if I'm not gonna see that person ever again.
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.519
I'm leaning there thinking, you know what?
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:26.480
That was good.
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.119
And I'm not high, and it's now come down.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.000
I feel good about myself.
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:32.960
Yeah.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:39.839
Yeah, there's it's interesting that there's so much shame around sex anyway.
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:47.759
You know, after the after your chemsex experience, it seems like a lot of men are thinking that sex at all is shameful.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.599
Do you find that?
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:50.079
Yeah.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.920
Yeah, it's a difficult one, isn't it?
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.400
I mean, what what are your thoughts on treatment though?
00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:08.240
Because you know, I I do I I think in a sense that, you know, you know, a lot of gay men go to a generic or very heteronormative treatment centre, it's it's it's almost like the therapist in there will demonize sex.
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:08.640
Yes.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.440
And it's almost like now you have to be clean.
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.920
The word clean, which I don't mind personally, but it's symbolic.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:17.519
I don't like it, yeah.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:19.119
It's it's symbolic.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:27.200
You have to remain clean and you have to have a boyfriend and you have to live like this because that's what recovery is all about.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:27.920
Right.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:28.319
Right.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:36.799
Um, where where really we should adopt a more sex-positive attitude and actually say, you know what, sex is wonderful, it's beautiful, and you can enjoy it.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.480
It's just important that you're not putting drugs in the equation and you're not using it in a compulsive nature.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:43.279
Right.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:44.720
Right, exactly.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:55.440
No, I I I think we throw around because I a lot of the men that I that are in the program and that I talk to, they assume they're they have a sex addiction.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:05.440
You know, coming out of their chem sex addiction because they had all this sex, and you know, it and they'll say, like, oh my sex addiction is being triggered.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:13.039
When you phrase it and frame it as sex addiction, then yes, sex will be something that's bad.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.640
That's the enemy.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.200
That's that's something else I'm addicted to.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.799
And you're what's hypersexual to one is not to the other either.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:23.519
Yeah.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.279
I think it's so individual.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:26.000
Yeah.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.960
And I think we have to look at the nature of of of chem sex as well.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.920
You know, in my experience, there's two sides of the camp.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:42.000
Those those that would use meth to facilitate the sex, and there's those that would use meth just get wasted, right?
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:42.400
Yeah.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:52.559
Um but regardless of why they're using it, because of the way meth works, it works, it creates hyper, hyper sexuality in in most people.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.279
I almost kind of imagine the drug and the sex, like two copper wires that are being fused, fused together.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.799
Um and then we have to kind of untangle that.
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.480
So we're gonna put the drugs out of the equation, they just have to go, right?
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:28.799
But the sex, it's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days, and really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi-man.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:30.400
Yeah.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.400
And how do we find that out?
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:35.599
Through processing, really.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:44.960
I I I think I think really from a treatment perspective, you know, as you said when you opened up um the the the session, I I agree with you 100%, by the way.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.440
In the early days, it's just if it's gonna be a trigger and you can avoid it, just avoid it.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:50.400
Yeah, right.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:50.880
Yep.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:52.400
Don't put it there.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:53.920
You know, let's just stabilize.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.839
Often I'll when I talk to my my clients, I want to understand why why is this happening?
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.079
Yeah, I was like, well listen, right?
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:13.200
If we here in London we have big tower blocks and I say, you know one of the tower blocks here in London, if that was kind of leaning over about to collapse, we probably need to stabilize it first, right?
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:13.759
Right.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.440
So it's not going to collapse.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:16.000
Right.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.000
M metaphorically, what I'm saying is like we need to stabilize.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.880
Let's get the nuts and bolts sorted.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.200
Let's get the drugs out of the equation.
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.880
And then let's start refurbishing the flaws bit by bit.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:34.240
But we can't refurbish the flaws until it's totally stable.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:41.440
So what what I'm trying to say really, Dallas, is that first first section of treatment is stabilization.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.440
Second part of treatment is answering all those questions.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:46.559
Who am I now?
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:47.359
What am I doing?
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.319
What is my meaning?
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:49.680
What is my purpose in this life?
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:51.279
Who am I as a sexual being?
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:52.640
What is it that I want?
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:54.960
And how do I do that?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:04.720
And that's that's where a therapist would come come in hand, or peers, or you know, a program of some sort, a recovery program, you know, really finding yourself.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.880
But it's really a tippy-toe process, isn't it?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.279
You're not going to be diving in the deep end before you can even swim.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:12.319
Right.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.880
Yeah.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:14.480
It is a tippy-toe.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.680
I I kind of I mean it's almost like walking through a minefield, it feels like, sometimes.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.519
Because you you kind of don't know what is going to trigger you.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.720
You have to be very cautious about let me try the little bit of this, let me try the little bit of that, let me do, you know, let me let me fantasize about that.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:35.920
Let me watch, you know, let me and what's your your take on pornography then early on?
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.279
It's a difficult one, isn't it?
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:50.720
Um for me, because you know, when when I'm working with clients, I I will go through masturbation.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.519
I think masturbation is very important in the process.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.119
But masturbation is a relapse invention tool.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.720
Not not necessarily masturbation for the luxury of masturbation.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:07.279
It's more about kind of keeping the hormones to to a line of so they're not acting as as a trigger.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.200
But then how how do we masturbate?
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.400
What do we masturbate to?
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.319
What fantasy do we masturbate?
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:25.039
And I in my experience often the guys I work with will their their their fantasy will go to um historical chemsex experiences, um, and they really struggle with that.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:39.359
So with porn, if it needs to be done, then use it, but then it's really important that you're not kind of watching the same type of pornography that you would have been watching in a chemsex party, for instance.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:55.920
And there is a phenomenon out there, even with people in recovery, that is almost this more morbid curiosity that they will go to chemsex porn or or slamming porn, and that's incredibly dangerous because you pretty much relapse at that stage, right?
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:04.559
So to answer your question without going around the mountains is preferably no, no porn, but that's a tug-of-war, as you can imagine.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:16.960
But if you do use it, make sure it's not the same type of porn that you're using when you were using chemsex, use it for what you need it for, get the job done and close it, basically.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:18.640
That's straightforward.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:20.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:29.599
I think it can be used too for a good way to explore what what is in your erotic template now to pursue.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:44.079
Like I I use the example of fisting all the time, but so let's say I was not into fisting before myth, I got into it uh during chemsex, and now I want to see is fisting something I want to pursue?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:44.799
Right.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:53.279
So I think if you if you're masturbating or wanking as you c as you guys call it, wanking, masturbating, jerking off, whatever.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:11.680
If you're masturbating and you masturbate to a um a porn of fisting or a sober scenario in your mind of fisting, and it takes keeps taking you back to chemsex urges, then that's probably something you you don't want to it keep reinforcing that, you want to stay away from that.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:12.480
Is that right?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.640
Um yes, yes, preferably.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:21.119
I mean, I I always used to give the example because you know, with sex and food, it's very similar.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.359
They're both very primal.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:30.079
You you you will know when you need to release the same way as you know when you need to eat, right?
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:31.119
Yeah, okay.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:42.799
Um so it's really about recognizing my urge because sex in itself can can get fused into a self-soothing mechanism, as can pornography, compulsive pornography.
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:46.400
We just have to be mindful of what I call the Russian doll syndrome.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:55.039
You know the Russian dolls, when you take one out, it's like take one out and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I might not be doing cameras, but I'm spending like five hours watching porn every night.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.119
That that that that's a problem.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:57.599
Yeah.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:07.279
If if I'm if I'm using the porn for what it is, uh, you know, I just need a release, I need a sexual release, I need to get to orgasm.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:08.960
Bum, done.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:11.359
Yeah.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:12.319
Yeah.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:12.880
Okay.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.640
Well, so I want to get to the topic.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.079
I think this is a good information.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:27.119
So in this second stage, we're working on our erotic desire cycle, and then we're going to try to reintroduce apps.
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.079
Right.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:36.480
So do you suggest when the app is reintroduced, we're talking about grinder or sniffies or any of the, I guess the websites too.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:42.799
Like, well, you want to you don't want to go to the other some of those bareback sites.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.279
Grinder or Sniffies, let's say.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.200
If you're would you reintroduce that into your recovery?
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.200
Do you suggest having a a safety plan first?
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:55.920
Like some some yeah, what do you do?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:57.599
How do you help your men do that?
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:06.559
Yeah, so you know, when when I worked in treatment, when I worked in the residential treatment center, um everything I've just talked about was delivered as part of the treatments.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:11.759
And we go in the treatment, including masturbation as a relapse prevention to app hygiene.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:18.400
What what we would do in in treatments is is actually get them to design their their app?
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.000
What profile name are you are you gonna use?
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.759
What does your profile name say about you?
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:25.279
What picture are you gonna use?
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.039
What does your dialogue say?
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.279
What does your dialogue say about you?
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.079
Are you are you gonna say that you're sober?
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.319
What are your safety mechanisms?
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.400
Can you automatically block?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.960
What are you actually looking for?
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.640
Again, you know, the second stage is like, what am I looking for?
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:43.920
You know, because everybody's different.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:54.799
Some people say, you know what, Mike, you know, uh I'm I've done it, I'm exhausted with, you know, I've had so much sex, I I just want to date and hopefully I want to find a partner.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:55.920
Great, wonderful.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:01.359
And and some people say to me, you know what, Mike, you know, I love sex and I love kinky sex.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.759
I just don't want to be doing the drugs anymore.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:06.000
Well, I still want to enjoy the sex.
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.240
Okay, let's explore that.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.759
How are you gonna do that?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.559
So that that will also be of what kind of app am I gonna go on?
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:19.839
You know, if I'm looking to date, for instance, grind's probably not the best site, right?
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.599
Maybe I prefer to go on Tinder.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:24.559
Yeah.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.319
Which is also a little bit safer, right, from a kind of here and now uh perspective.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.240
But if I'm looking to enjoy casual sex, maybe grinder is that.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.720
But but then you've got to be really hyper-vigilant, you've got to put it out there and make it very clear.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.799
You know, because obviously when people are high, they also don't read.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:45.279
Right?
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:46.160
Exactly.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:47.839
They're just looking at pictures.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:55.839
So you often see on Grindr people put re-profile with a little arrow down, re-read, re-read profile.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.759
But also kind of acknowledging the reasons that you're on there.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.480
You know, am I actually looking for sex right now?
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:04.400
Or am I just lonely or board?
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.319
Am I looking for validation?
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.160
What are my reasons for being here?
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.880
How am I feeling mentally and emotionally right now?
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:11.839
Is this a safe place?
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.359
Is it safe for me to be on here?
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.519
What time of day am I using here?
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.119
You know, it can be dangerous at all times of the day.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.720
However, after 10 p.m., for instance, it's a bit more dangerous, right?
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.519
Or very early in the morning from four to six.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:31.440
So really pulling it to pieces, you know, of really kind of looking at that.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:49.759
In in the treatment centre, everybody basically, I mean, these are pretty much just designed with our pictures and um so when when they left treatment, they they knew exactly um what what their app was gonna look like when they decided to get to that stage.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:56.079
And the same with masturbation, when before they left treatment, they knew how often they're gonna masturbate, what fancy they're gonna masturbate to.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:56.799
Oh.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:11.680
Very, very structured, which which was nice with the treatment center because it was an LGBT treatment center and we had a chemsex track, was that's one of the benefits of not being in a generic heteronormative treatment center.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:18.160
That that we can really explore those sides to it without shaming it or demonizing it.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:19.359
Right.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:20.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:22.079
Yeah, okay.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:28.400
Yeah, so taking extra time to design what your app looks like.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:35.279
Maybe maybe one of your pictures can be you holding up a one of those key tea tags from the 12 steps.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.599
Clean and serene or something.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:45.039
Well, I mean, personally, I mean, just just you know, it like also kind of making we don't have to make it so serious, right?
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.559
It it can be well to be a little bit of an activist, you know, you know, sober as sexy with a little muscle on, right?
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:53.279
Yeah, right.
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.279
You know, sober as heart, no H, no POP.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:06.000
Um really really trying to make it a little bit fun, but with a very serious message there.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:06.640
Yeah.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:07.519
Yeah.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:19.920
But but but also really having that, but I think the important bit is does a person feel confident enough that if somebody sends them a message saying, five of us playing high and horny, do you want to join us?
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:21.680
That they can just go block.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:22.319
Right.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:22.480
Right.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:26.720
How do you know if you're ready for that?
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.000
I don't think you ever really know you're you're ready.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:36.319
I mean, personally, what I I would do is give a time frame.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:46.880
Um six months I I personally believe is preferable um to to allow you to stabilize from the drugs and defuse.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:53.359
Um but most people will really struggle, in my experience, to say, um six months.
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.000
Um most people will go three months, and and that's that's a good start at least.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:58.799
Okay.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:00.240
Okay.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:01.200
Yeah.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.000
Yeah, there's probably some questions to ask yourself.
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.359
You know, what are you know what are your true intentions?
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.039
Right?
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:11.200
Okay to get on there.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.559
Um that's uh do you give any other advice?
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.519
So look at your profo profile name, maybe have some fun.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:19.359
What kind of pictures do you have?
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:24.640
Um what is the what do you have to say down there in terms of the the description in your name?
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.400
Do you have sober in it?
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:33.599
Um yeah, anything else there that you guide the guys around in terms of app hygiene?
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:49.519
I mean it's difficult because I'm I'm a therapist, so I would be um working with them and preferably what what I would be doing with them in that second stage of treatment is almost kind of mentoring through mentoring them through that experience.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:50.079
Right?
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.000
So they're not just going solo um and going on the apps.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.319
It's something that can be discussed in the therapy room um as well.
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.400
But not everybody is in therapy.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:09.599
So if you've got a coach, if you've got a sponsor, whoever whoever is your support system in your recovery, you utilize them.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:13.920
Don't don't do it solo and don't don't do it in shame either.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.480
Talk about it.
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:15.039
Yeah.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:15.440
Yeah.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.360
You know, don't don't do it in secrecy.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.920
It needs to be spoken about, it needs to be normalized.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.679
It's okay, but be supportive in that.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.480
Yeah.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:25.119
Yeah.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:25.840
Yes.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:27.039
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:40.079
I mean, no, I have clients that'll come and say, you know, they they'll come and they either use or they're shaken up and they're like, you know, well, I got back on grinder last night and this happened or that happened.
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.199
And I'm like, why didn't why did you do that?
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.280
And not tell and tell me.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:50.559
You know, and you didn't tell, you didn't tell your sponsor, you didn't tell your team, you didn't tell the other clients in our chat.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:56.719
Like, I don't it's not something like you're saying, it's not don't do it in secrecy, don't do it without telling anybody.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.000
Like, get get make it make sure that you're protected.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:04.239
Make sure there's there's a safe space and that people know to check in on you too, right?
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:06.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:10.800
Because just the fact that that's happening is a little bit of a warning sign, isn't it?
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.440
The fact that I'm feeling and it's right.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:21.840
Needing to do that in secrecy for whatever reason, whether that's shame or I feel like I'm gonna be judged, um, or or or criticize.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.280
It's a little bit of a red flag, and I need to stop pause and just ask myself why I'm doing that.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:29.199
That's right.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:29.920
That's right.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:30.880
Exactly right.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:32.480
Yeah, why did I do that?
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.239
What am I really looking for?
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:40.719
Um, so I wanted to show you a little model that I have and just get your advice on it.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.039
Um I didn't show you this.
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.239
Gonna get your your real-time reaction here.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:47.920
Let me share it.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:56.559
Let me share it on the screen if you're watching, which by the way, you can watch this now on Apple iPod Apple Podcast too.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.599
Um okay, here we go.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:02.159
Okay.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.239
So this is a little mo little model that it's it looks it looks complicated, but it isn't.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:14.159
So before you open the app, so the phone is in your hand, pause.
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.480
So am I on autopilot?
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:21.039
Which means, you know, am I reacting to getting rejected?
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:22.800
Did a guy ghost me?
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.559
Am I feeling really lonely and desperate?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.599
Like, am I on autopilot?
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:30.880
So don't open that.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:37.599
So once you try to open the app, wait 90 seconds, ask yourself, where am I?
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.559
Why am I clicking on this app right now?
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.440
Yeah.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.440
So you name the need.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.719
Yeah, what am I seeking?
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.960
Do I am I seeking connection?
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.239
Do I need somebody to validate me because I'm feeling ugly?
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:55.760
Am I trying to escape am I trying to escape but my world right now?
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:56.320
Right?
00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.239
If those are the reasons, can I meet them another way?
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:01.599
Right?
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.519
So if I can meet them another way, yes, do it.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.199
Uh and then, but if I if I can't meet them another way, then continue.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:15.760
So that's when it goes into the conscious decision of checking in with yourself.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.239
You know, are you feeling empowered?
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:23.519
Which would be clear, sober, and stable, or are you feeling desperate?
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.239
Like, do is there a sense of urgency, like I gotta fuck right now?
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:33.039
Or I got somebody somebody needs to tell me I have a big dick right now, right?
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.880
Like, am I escaping?
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:35.599
Am I measuring?
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.400
Am I at risk?
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:49.119
So if you're in a desperate state, if there's like an instant gratification type energy, stop, don't open the app or close the app, whatever it is, but just feel that for 90 seconds.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:53.280
And then if you do end up open it, do you have a time limit?
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:59.599
Set a timer somewhere, or you know, you could be on Grinder for three hours before you know it.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.599
So, how long you want to be on it?
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.559
Let's plan that ahead and have an act exit plan.
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:21.840
So if I'm triggered, there's if I if I even click on a profile that has H or P and P or an emoji that means parting, if I even just click on it, I need to tell somebody right away, I just clicked on this profile, close, close the app.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.199
Um, and then if and then you can use it.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:26.320
What do you think about this?
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:27.440
I really like it.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:28.320
I really like it.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:49.360
I I like the unconscious and I like the conscious because if if we think then about the nature of impulsivity, um it's usually because the prefrontal cortex is narrowed and I'm working on uh my emotional my emotional brain, which which means I don't have that ability to really think it through.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:57.039
So by having those kind of stop, pause, and breathe, and just ask yourself some simple questions, is it's a really, really good intervention.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:58.480
I like it a lot, Dallas.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.239
Of course, you can.
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:03.360
Send it to me.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.119
I will, I'll send it to you.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:06.800
Uh I send it to you.
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:15.039
Um yeah, it's so that prefrontal cortex being offline, doesn't that happen too when you're in an aroused, sexually aroused state?
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:19.199
Yeah, no, absolutely, and and craving, and craving as well.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:20.639
Um, anything.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:31.039
So with prefrontal cortex narrowing, it's obviously trauma, um, fear, anger, um, shame can actually do it as well.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:37.360
And and actually euphoric states, yeah, in that very fancy-based uh th thinking.
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:47.360
And it's a danger zone because you can't think it through clearly by doing an exercise like that, when what you're doing is forcing your prefrontal cortex to switch back on.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:48.880
So bringing it back online.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:49.519
Yeah.
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:49.840
Yeah.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:50.960
No, I like it.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:51.679
I like it a lot.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.159
Yeah.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:52.719
Good.
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:53.840
And thank you.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.599
And then I mean, breathing could help.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.559
Isn't that right?
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:03.440
Like it breathing itself, like a breath work practice, bro, box breathing or something like that.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.519
Can't that at least give you a pause?
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:06.320
Yeah.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:06.559
Yeah.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:06.960
Yeah.
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:15.280
I saw I saw through in one of your videos actually, I think it was on LinkedIn, you did the the three stages of relapse, right?
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.159
The emotional, mental, and and and physical.
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:23.599
And I I use that my myself, and I usually put a little intervention for each one.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.079
Uh with the emotional part, you kind of are within your window of tolerance.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.719
Are you and you're free from the cortex, it's switched on, but you just want to keep it switched on.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:38.480
So I put the stop, stop exercise where you stop, pause, breathe, and just do a little reflection.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:44.239
And a nice way to do that reflection is just put the holts into the equation hungry, angry, learning, tired.
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:48.239
And then for chemsense, of course, ask yourself that final question.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.679
Am I honey?
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.280
Usually I'm hungry, angry, learning, tired, right?
00:40:54.079 --> 00:41:02.320
Um when we go into the mental part of that, which is pretty much a pre-filter cortex narrowing when we're in obsession, right?
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:12.320
Then then we put your tip, which is temperature, intense exercise, and progressive muscle relaxation or breath work um in there.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.360
Um and then just a decisional balance.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:21.360
So just looking once my pre-filter cortex is switched back on, you know, what what are the positives and consequences?
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:25.199
We use this for apps as well as kind of drug using as well, you know.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.760
What are the positives of me going on to this right now?
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:35.920
Maybe I'm just like 30 days um in into my recovery and I'm downloading grinder, I probably need to stop, pause, and breathe into that.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.760
I just think I see what's happening.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:38.239
Yeah.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.360
Yeah.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:40.800
Yes, yeah.
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:52.559
Yeah, and if you're if you're listening and you think that's a a lot of work to do to just be on grinder, then maybe you're not ready to be on it.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.719
You know?
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.639
Maybe you just start.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.679
You know, think about the why you're asking yourself, like, I don't want to do all that.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:03.760
Why do you want it?
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.639
Why are you on it then?
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:06.159
You know, what are you willing to do here?
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:13.119
Because this that that grinder, even the grinder ding can be a trigger.
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.760
It can put you in the mood.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:17.199
In the mode.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:24.239
This is highly the chemsex recovery is just so high so many layers and it's so complicated.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.559
And this the apps make it so much worse.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.800
So really be on it.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.199
And this is the same with sniffies too.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:40.639
Sniffies is even, you know, a little bit worse because the the profile pictures can be your penis or your asshole.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.119
You know, you can get you in the mood real fast to use.
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:50.239
Um, and don't tell me you're looking for a boyfriend on sniffies, because I don't buy that whatsoever.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.679
I mean, it's possible.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:54.880
But that's probably not why you're on there, right?
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:55.760
Yeah.
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:56.320
Yeah.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:59.119
I don't think sniffers is very big in the UK.
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.320
I actually only heard about sniffers myself from an American uh client.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:05.840
He says sniffers is really dangerous.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.159
And I said, Sniffers once what are sniffers?
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.719
It's like and don't I heard about sniffers, but it's apparently quite big in the United States, right?
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.159
Yeah, well, I will say when I was in London, I looked it was active.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:19.519
In London.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:20.159
Okay.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:20.639
Yeah, I'm not sure.
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.880
I think I'm just getting odd, Dallas.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:23.920
I'm just getting old.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:24.719
I'm sorry.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.119
I better start educating myself before I get out of fashion.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:32.400
They'll be like, oh, that addiction therapist is historic.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:33.920
He doesn't know what that means.
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:34.800
Right.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:41.760
No, I I looked when I traveled to Europe, I liked looking at I don't know.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:43.280
I I I wanted to see what it was like.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:47.039
So I I did open Grinder, I downloaded a Grinder and I made a profile.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:50.079
I I've actually I downloaded a grinder, I already have a profile.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.599
My picture, I I didn't realize my picture was on the profile.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.760
And this sounds arrogant, but it's not.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.639
But I started getting messages like, oh, you're down.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.480
uh you know, the chemsex guy or whatever.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.320
Um, and even got invited to a H H party, which was really strange.
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:21.679
Um, but I I wanted to see, and I will say the the landscape of Grinder in London was actually everything that I had heard very heavily, heavily H H, heavily chemsex.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.559
Um, but I I did check out Sniffy's too.
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:28.559
It wasn't as active, but it there was plenty going on there, at least.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.679
Um so yeah, it's interesting.
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:38.960
Um yeah, I mean I just you know there's so many things to be cautious about here, guys, and you have to be intentional.
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:45.440
Um intentional, thoughtful, and you and and it takes patience and it's going to take time.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.800
And like we said earlier, meth is a shortcut to these things.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:56.719
But the the alternative is you're gonna have to take the long way around to get this th to to get what you need, to get what you want.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:58.000
But you can get it.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.280
There's no You know what they say no pain, no gain, Dallas?
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:04.480
That's right.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:19.199
Um and it's really not that painful it's it's just really just acknowledging your safety really your safety is is is the most important thing really and just really asking yourself that question am I safe?
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:20.639
Am I safe?
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:21.840
I love that.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:38.159
Yeah because you said connection equals safety and in the safe i if you feel safe when you're in that safe environment that's where you can you can explore you can take a little calculated risks you know you you can heal in that safe environment.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.880
Yeah well Mike what did I miss today?
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:47.519
Is there something I didn't ask that you wish I had of or something you want to talk about?
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:58.000
Um no I think I think we covered a lot really just um do do a little shout out to where I work and our structured weekend programme.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.719
Oh yes yes yes that that is starting so what tell can you tell us about that?
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:16.800
Yeah so I I work in London and I work in a private practice but I also work for an amazing clinic um called Innisfree um it's based in Mondyburn in central London.
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:43.599
It is a sexual compulsivity disorder clinic I work there as a chemsen consultant and we're starting an amazing program um with which is a weekend structured program uh from a Friday night all the way through to Sunday it's basically just based on a community um outpatient program but on the weekends because that that's where the majority of the people really struggle.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:47:10.480
So we're basically filling the gaps from a Friday to Sunday and offering an intensive structured day program from 11am to 6 p.m it will be a combination of your traditional relapse prevention psychosexual and trauma informed treatments with with the aim being on connection it'll be all gay gay men or men who have sex with men in the program nice I love it I love it.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:18.320
So we'll put in the show notes a link to that if you can give us a link or information or something like that we'll put it in the show notes.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:24.559
If you send me some send me anything too about that I'll share it on my social media as well.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:25.199
Yeah.
00:47:25.519 --> 00:48:22.400
Amazing such a needed service where you are such a needed service yeah well yeah I think it's gonna be amazing because I don't know what it's like in the United States but here in the UK with with meth and chemsex in in general a lot a lot of the funding goes into uh harm reduction yeah and and there's very little in the way of abstinence and there's something very powerful about having a specific chemsex program for gay bite or manual sex with men where you can create a safe space and they can share well I think it's the opposite here I think they're getting rid of harm reduction programs in the US I think there's a need for it but but there's also a need for abstinence right I mean we need to keep people alive until they can get absent basically that's right let's keep them alive until they get recovery.
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:47.679
Right right yeah yeah I think so too I think so too okay well Michael thank you so much for Mike thanks for being here thank you appreciate it so much so nice to meet you by Dallas good luck with the thing and I really loved um the the app the app map I really like yeah I'll send that to you I'll send that to you please all right all right guys thank you guys see you next week bye
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:11.839
It's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:20.640
And really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi man.
00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:22.000
Yeah.
00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:24.079
And how do we find that out?
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:25.679
Chemsex.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:33.439
Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:42.719
Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:52.560
Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.840
Welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:56.000 --> 00:00:57.200
Thank you for being here.
00:00:57.439 --> 00:00:58.719
Appreciate you listening.
00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:03.439
We just we celebrated a milestone in the month of May.
00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:05.680
Over 50,000 downloads.
00:01:05.840 --> 00:01:07.120
Thank you very much.
00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.359
We are at over a thousand downloads a week right now.
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:19.519
And just to give you an idea, when we first started, uh we were at probably one to two hundred downloads a week.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:26.239
So over two years now, a little over two years, we've we've really really increased, we've really grown.
00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:27.760
Really glad to see that.
00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:33.280
And thanks to you guys who have rated and reviewed the podcast and continue to download it.
00:01:33.439 --> 00:01:36.799
You're telling the algorithm that we like this.
00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:39.439
Um and so thank you so much for your support.
00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.959
Don't forget there's a supplemental study guide with every episode.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.840
The link will be in the show notes if you're interested.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:49.439
Just click on there if you want to take a deeper dive in what we're talking about.
00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:50.799
And what are we talking about?
00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:54.000
What we're talking about today is app hygiene.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:58.560
Um, and specifically with grinder, we'll probably touch on the other ones too.
00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:08.639
Um, but you know, if you watch my content, you're gonna hear me say a lot about block line block grinder, block access to grind.
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:13.840
And I do believe in early chemsex recovery that is necessary.
00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:21.120
Um, I I don't think it, you know, I've had some clients come through the program who didn't block grinder from their phone.
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.199
And I'm not saying, by the way, I'm not saying not have it on your phone.
00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:30.000
I'm saying put a block on your phone so that you cannot access it.
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:32.000
There's a difference, right?
00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.280
Um, but but what do you do for the rest of your life?
00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:38.080
Do you do you do you stay grinderless?
00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:45.039
And in the world we're living in, it's moving more and more to geosocial dating apps as the way to meet people.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:51.759
We have clubs, clubs, and bars shutting down all over the place because people aren't meeting people in person anymore.
00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:53.360
So, what can we do with this?
00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:57.840
So, today we're going to talk to an expert about this, Michael Power.
00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:08.479
So, Mike is an addiction counselor with over 15 years of experience working with chemsex, sexual compulsive behaviors, trauma, and LGBTQ mental health.
00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:20.000
He has worked in LGBTQ plus rehabilitation centers in Thailand, supporting individuals navigating addiction, identity, intimacy, and recovery within a compassionate, trauma-informed environment.
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:30.319
Mike is passionate about reducing stigma and encouraging honest, informed conversations around Crystal Matthews, sexuality, mental health, and recovery.
00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:31.520
Love the sound of all of that.
00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:32.879
Mike, welcome to the show.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:34.000
Wonderful.
00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:35.199
Thank you so much, Dallas.
00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:37.599
Thank you for inviting me.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:38.960
Yeah.
00:03:39.199 --> 00:03:46.800
Well, we met on LinkedIn, and I was I have really enjoyed reading your articles that you've been posting.
00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.879
Um, really good stuff and centered around Chemsex.
00:03:50.960 --> 00:04:00.960
But specifically, I noticed you were talking about Grinder and Appygiene, and like basically saying, look, if you're going to be on it, here's how to do it.
00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:08.240
So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your experience with chemsex and how you got here?
00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.479
Yeah, yeah, okay.
00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:12.479
So um I'm Mike.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.400
Uh pleased, pleased to meet you.
00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:23.600
Um, my experience in chemsex, actually, I was doing meth because I don't think it was actually called chemsex um back in those days.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.120
It was just chem chem chem it was just methamphetamine.
00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.360
And I was actually using it in the United States and um Australia.
00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:53.279
Um I actually started my own journey of recovery in Los Angeles and went to treatment in in Australia, and then when I came back to London, the there was methadrone, um, which I don't believe is that big in the United States, but Crystal Meth was just starting to come onto the scene.
00:04:53.519 --> 00:05:04.879
Um, I wanted to save London from this evil addiction that was going around America and and and Australia, and was going to do this big campaign just to raise everybody's awareness.
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:07.759
And of course, I never had the skills to do that.
00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:17.519
Um, but I did meet a wonderful guy who um coined the term chemsex, um, and his name is David Stewart, who's no longer with us, unfortunately.
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:29.680
Um, and I did some training with him, then I started volunteering in an LGBT drug and alcohol service there, you know, just making teas, coffees, then I started doing assessments.
00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:37.759
Um honestly it was like a war zone because nobody really knew anything about Crystal Math or GHB about about back then.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:41.680
So people were really presented in quite chaotic states.
00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:47.360
However, for me, because I was looking for work, I just I'm actually okay at this.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:55.759
So but what I also realized was I actually, you know, it's very complex, and I was working with very vulnerable people.
00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:06.079
Um so then then went off and studied and went to university and studied to be an addiction counsellor, and that's kind of how I ended up where I am now, and that was 15 years ago, yeah.
00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:07.920
Wow, 15 years.
00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:13.040
15 years so what have you seen as the biggest change over this 15 years?
00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:20.160
I I I think just education is is is is the biggest thing.
00:06:20.399 --> 00:06:22.079
People are more informed.
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:24.560
Um, where where they never used to.
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:28.959
It was a really new phenomenon because the apps were just kind of coming into play then.
00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:40.560
So it was like the perfect storm, really, and you know, intravenous use was never really a thing in the gay community, and it was becoming sexualized, and there was a massive rise, of course, in hepsi.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:48.639
Um PEP was around back in those days, but PrEP wasn't so HIV rates also skyrocketed.
00:06:48.800 --> 00:07:00.399
So I think probably what what I've seen mostly now is is that people are more informed um around how to take the drugs if they inject, they know how to inject safely.
00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.399
If they take GHB, they know how to dose safe second.
00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:20.959
I do believe that it's probably reducing a little bit in in severity from an addiction perspective, but I'll be quite honest with you, because I'm not working frontline anymore, you know, when I was frontline, I was really in the chaos.
00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:26.399
I I'm a little bit out of the loop in what's actually happening.
00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:29.759
And I I don't obviously don't engage in that world myself.
00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:30.879
Mm-hmm.
00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:32.160
Yeah, okay.
00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:40.800
Yeah, the education, that's it's interesting to me when gay gay men will comment on my social media and say, What is this?
00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:42.480
Is there a meth problem?
00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.279
In the in the gay community, I'm like, where the fuck have you been?
00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:50.240
Like, how how can you not know?
00:07:50.399 --> 00:08:00.959
Because I will say, any mostly, I would say 99% of people that I meet, if you're a gay man, you know somebody who has had a meth problem or you've had one.
00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:01.519
Yeah.
00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:04.480
Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it seems like that.
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:09.600
But I'm just really shocked by the people that don't understand it or don't know it, or still, still getting into it.
00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:14.560
These in 2026 still don't know what it is when the pipe's handed to them.
00:08:14.800 --> 00:08:15.839
Do you see that?
00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:16.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:16.879
I don't know.
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.800
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:08:19.040 --> 00:08:21.600
Well, it's also a sex problem, isn't it?
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:28.879
You know, and and I think that's why the term um chem sex is good, because they become fused, they become fused together.
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.399
It almost becomes one one one problem.
00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:38.559
And when we take the drugs out of the equation, and we do have to work on the psychosexual piece as well, which is really important.
00:08:38.879 --> 00:08:44.080
Hence why I write about the erotic desire cycle and um ap hygiene.
00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:55.120
It's more really that second stage of of treatment, you know, where you've kind of put the drugs aside, but but now you're reintegrating a healthy sober sexuality.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:58.799
That that's often where people slip up because it's frightening, right?
00:08:58.879 --> 00:09:07.600
When if I've used a drug to facilitate my sex for for many, many years, then re-engaging in sexual activity is incredibly frightening.
00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.240
So we have to kind of tippy toe into that, really.
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:12.240
Yes, yes.
00:09:12.559 --> 00:09:19.039
So that's definitely number one question I get, number one hurdle that I see too.
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:28.960
Um, and really kind of what's missing from my own program, which is why I'm working on my sexologist, my sexology certificate, is to try to get in there and help with this.
00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:31.200
Um, but you're right.
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:39.279
So let's say you get away from the substance, you get some momentum, you've got some recovery going, and now I want to have sex.
00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:40.159
Right.
00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:43.039
Um, so let's talk about two things here.
00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:45.759
So you talked about an erotic desire cycle.
00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:52.399
Well just for a side note for those listening, where would I get how would I start that process?
00:09:53.919 --> 00:10:00.720
It's interesting because like like you, I was also stuck with that because my training is in addiction.
00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:06.240
And I'm very good at relapse prevention, triggers, ages, you know, all those skills.
00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:21.759
But but when it came to the second stage of of treatment, of how do I now reintegrate sex of my choosing, and that's the important bit, is is that I I actually went and did a psychosexual course myself.
00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:27.679
And it was when I was doing that course that I'd actually thought, actually, okay, I think I'm getting it.
00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:35.440
And I and I'll be honest with you, just also from my own personal experience of intimacy, I was kind of being a little bit experiential.
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:44.960
It was like, I okay, so if we have the first the first bit of the erotic desire cycle is really just connection because connection equals safety.
00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:51.200
And it's really also important when we're talking about connection, that doesn't mean that I'm looking for a partner.
00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:54.559
It can actually just mean connection.
00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:56.559
So I'm being transparent.
00:10:57.200 --> 00:10:58.399
These are my needs.
00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.039
I'm not looking for a quick hookup.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:06.320
Um I I I'm I'm looking for longevity and and I quit.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:13.360
I I like to do this and I like to do that, and maybe actually if I don't feel safe, maybe we're not going to have sex right there and then.
00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.120
Or maybe actually it is the opposite.
00:11:15.200 --> 00:11:23.279
Maybe I want to meet for a coffee um first, and if we gel, then maybe we can meet again, but I'm not gonna have sex until I feel safe.
00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:24.080
Mm-hmm.
00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.759
Yeah.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:26.639
Yes.
00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.399
So do you coach coach men on how to have that conversation?
00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:37.440
Um, I I would, especially, especially in group work, I I do the erotic desire cycle.
00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:45.200
I mean, it's interesting because when you first start to explain it, most most people's go-to is, well, I don't want a boyfriend.
00:11:45.759 --> 00:11:45.919
Right.
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.200
But but it's it's talking about boyfriends.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:57.679
This is really just about creating safety, because when I have safety, then then I can get erotic desire.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:05.600
Because if we think about meth and sex and what it was facilitating, even though it's very toxic, it was facilitating safety.
00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.120
It was facilitating confidence.
00:12:09.679 --> 00:12:18.559
It was facilitating me being able to talk and communicate and not to be scared just to have sex.
00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:25.519
When we take meth out of the equation, then we have to look at an alternative way of kind of finding safety.
00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:30.480
And unfortunately that takes a lot longer than just obviously putting a pipe in your mouth.
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:31.679
Right.
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:32.159
Right.
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.360
Meth is the ultimate shortcut to all of this, right?
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:36.000
Yeah.
00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:36.559
Yeah.
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:37.200
Mm-hmm.
00:12:37.600 --> 00:12:47.120
And I think you know, I I see a lot of men they they're DMing me or I talk to them or they're on the or on social media and they'll say, It's been 10 years.
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.639
I've been, you know, sober ten years, but I've never had sex.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:52.320
Or fifth fifteen years.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:54.480
I don't even you know, I don't even want to try to have sex.
00:12:54.639 --> 00:12:57.039
And they they don't believe that it's possible.
00:12:57.679 --> 00:13:01.360
Or they'll say, I'll never have Tina sex again, so why have sex?
00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:02.639
Right.
00:13:02.960 --> 00:13:03.440
Right.
00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:05.440
But what a way to live.
00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:08.080
To just accept that.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:15.120
Well that's what I mean about the fear part of it, that when we take the drugs out of the equation, it is a real fear.
00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:15.440
Yeah.
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:16.879
You know, it's a fear.
00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:19.279
I don't know how to do this.
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:19.759
Yeah.
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:28.159
And actually, can I find a person that's gonna be patient enough with me so I can do this and understand my need for safety?
00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:28.879
Yeah.
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:29.600
Yeah.
00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:36.240
That's why I think we need a chemsex surrogate partner program, like a rent in.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.440
Yeah.
00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:48.879
But right, but with chemsex, somebody that uh gets the assignment and and knows how to provide the space for the man to explore that.
00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:49.600
Yeah.
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:54.639
Well what is in it's it's it's interesting here here in the UK, there was an article a few years back.
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.039
I'm not sure it's even online and anymore.
00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.039
And it was about sex workers, S goods.
00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:05.120
Um one one article was really about the sex working community getting addicted to meth.
00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:05.759
Yes.
00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:10.879
Um, which which which which they are, it's quite big in in that community.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:21.519
And one article around a sex worker that found recovery and got sober, he was actually uh providing the service for other people that are engaged in recovery.
00:14:21.759 --> 00:14:25.039
So almost like a sex therapy book, kind of hands-on sex therapy.
00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:27.519
Personally, I thought it was a wonderful service.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:28.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:29.919
I think so too.
00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:35.759
Yeah, I mean, I have a client who I've I've suggested go to rent men.
00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.720
I mean, you know, there's plenty of them that don't use here.
00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.279
I mean, there's some that say no P and P, no, no drugs or whatever.
00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:47.759
But you look, you get to there's no strings attached, there's no pressure.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.960
If you come, you come.
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:50.399
If you get tired, you get hard.
00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:52.000
And that's the kind of environment you want.
00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:56.159
And then you they get to they're they're gonna do what you tell them to do, you know.
00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.799
So and he's like, Well, I don't want to pay for sex.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:02.080
And I was like, Well, you're actually paying for a recovery service.
00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:03.679
Right?
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:05.120
You can see it that way.
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:05.919
Yeah.
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:14.559
I mean, it's really challenging because because here in the UK, um, you know, mef meth is really, really big uh amongst the sex workers.
00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.320
So Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.240
Yeah, it is here too, but um okay.
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:25.440
So this erotic desire cycle, we're talking about connection equals safety.
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:27.519
And like you said, like I don't want a boyfriend.
00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:30.960
It's like when you mention the word intimacy, I get that a lot too.
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:36.720
Well, I don't want to I don't want to uh uh be vanilla with a man.
00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:38.000
I don't want to be cuddly.
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:42.879
Like intimacy doesn't it doesn't have to mean vanilla cuddles.
00:15:44.399 --> 00:15:45.039
Right?
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:52.879
No, absolutely absolutely, because what what you're doing theoretically is creating the safety first, because that's where the connection comes in.
00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:58.159
You're you're creating the safety to enjoy whatever sexual experience you wish to have.
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:08.799
You know, what whether whether that is vanilla or whether that's kink or BDSM, um it doesn't matter, but what you're doing is creating a safety.
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:19.039
What's nice about the erotic desire cycle, my my experience of working with men when they come in recovery is that when when they do engage in sex, it's just really, really disappointing.
00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:19.519
Yeah.
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:26.559
Um it's too quick, it's over in five minutes, and and actually that can that can create a trigger in itself.
00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:28.240
You know, what was the point?
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:33.360
Why why did I spend an hour prepping for this like five-minute wonder?
00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:51.120
So so this idea that we're only capable of having one orgasm, and with with the eroting desire cycle, it's actually aimed at if you wish that you have more than one orgasm, because once we orgasm, then we're gonna release oxytocin.
00:16:51.679 --> 00:17:02.720
And if you hang around long enough and you don't jump out of the bed or the sling, wherever you are, uh and and kind of push yourself down and run out the door and say thank you, thank you very much.
00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:03.360
Right.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:10.400
And actually allow yourself to be a little bit vulnerable, then a secondary erotic desire can can occur.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.240
And then that creates a longevity to the experience, right?
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:31.279
Because this is where I got stuck um when when trying to think how we can work through this in recovery from a sexual perspective, is that for a lot of people it was around the connection and the longevity, and actually the drug-induced intimacy, right?
00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:33.519
So, how do we recreate that?
00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:34.000
Yeah.
00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:39.440
Tyson is a wonderful chemical that gets released as long as we don't block it with shame.
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.400
If we block it with shame, then it kind of blocks it.
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:46.480
And that's when a person like post-orgasm, you're like, Thank you, running out the door.
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.839
I call it the gate of shame, right?
00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:49.279
The gate of shame kicks in.
00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:56.400
And it's very unconscious, but it's that uncomfortability that when you've orgasmed, it's almost like coming down off a drug, isn't it?
00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:57.759
You hit reality.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:08.079
But if you can stay in the experience long enough and really utilize the oxytocin, then you can have a secondary or even a third erotic arousal if it's a good day, right?
00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:13.279
And then you can leave there thinking, actually, that was a really nice experience, right?
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.160
It wasn't empty, it wasn't over in five minutes.
00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:18.079
I actually got connection.
00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:23.440
Um, I had great, great sex, and it doesn't matter if I'm not gonna see that person ever again.
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:25.519
I'm leaning there thinking, you know what?
00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:26.480
That was good.
00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:29.119
And I'm not high, and it's now come down.
00:18:29.680 --> 00:18:32.000
I feel good about myself.
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:32.960
Yeah.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:39.839
Yeah, there's it's interesting that there's so much shame around sex anyway.
00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:47.759
You know, after the after your chemsex experience, it seems like a lot of men are thinking that sex at all is shameful.
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:49.599
Do you find that?
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:50.079
Yeah.
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:51.920
Yeah, it's a difficult one, isn't it?
00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:54.400
I mean, what what are your thoughts on treatment though?
00:18:54.480 --> 00:19:08.240
Because you know, I I do I I think in a sense that, you know, you know, a lot of gay men go to a generic or very heteronormative treatment centre, it's it's it's almost like the therapist in there will demonize sex.
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:08.640
Yes.
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.440
And it's almost like now you have to be clean.
00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:15.920
The word clean, which I don't mind personally, but it's symbolic.
00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:17.519
I don't like it, yeah.
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:19.119
It's it's symbolic.
00:19:19.359 --> 00:19:27.200
You have to remain clean and you have to have a boyfriend and you have to live like this because that's what recovery is all about.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:27.920
Right.
00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:28.319
Right.
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:36.799
Um, where where really we should adopt a more sex-positive attitude and actually say, you know what, sex is wonderful, it's beautiful, and you can enjoy it.
00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:42.480
It's just important that you're not putting drugs in the equation and you're not using it in a compulsive nature.
00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:43.279
Right.
00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:44.720
Right, exactly.
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:55.440
No, I I I think we throw around because I a lot of the men that I that are in the program and that I talk to, they assume they're they have a sex addiction.
00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:05.440
You know, coming out of their chem sex addiction because they had all this sex, and you know, it and they'll say, like, oh my sex addiction is being triggered.
00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:13.039
When you phrase it and frame it as sex addiction, then yes, sex will be something that's bad.
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.640
That's the enemy.
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:17.200
That's that's something else I'm addicted to.
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.799
And you're what's hypersexual to one is not to the other either.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:23.519
Yeah.
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.279
I think it's so individual.
00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:26.000
Yeah.
00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:30.960
And I think we have to look at the nature of of of chem sex as well.
00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.920
You know, in my experience, there's two sides of the camp.
00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:42.000
Those those that would use meth to facilitate the sex, and there's those that would use meth just get wasted, right?
00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:42.400
Yeah.
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:52.559
Um but regardless of why they're using it, because of the way meth works, it works, it creates hyper, hyper sexuality in in most people.
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:59.279
I almost kind of imagine the drug and the sex, like two copper wires that are being fused, fused together.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.799
Um and then we have to kind of untangle that.
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:06.480
So we're gonna put the drugs out of the equation, they just have to go, right?
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:28.799
But the sex, it's just really about developing a healthier relationship with with with your sex and kind of reducing any negative consequences that might be left over from you using days, and really looking at who am I now as a sober, sexual, gay man or bi-man.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:30.400
Yeah.
00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:32.400
And how do we find that out?
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:35.599
Through processing, really.
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:44.960
I I I think I think really from a treatment perspective, you know, as you said when you opened up um the the the session, I I agree with you 100%, by the way.
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:49.440
In the early days, it's just if it's gonna be a trigger and you can avoid it, just avoid it.
00:21:49.759 --> 00:21:50.400
Yeah, right.
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:50.880
Yep.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:52.400
Don't put it there.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:53.920
You know, let's just stabilize.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:59.839
Often I'll when I talk to my my clients, I want to understand why why is this happening?
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.079
Yeah, I was like, well listen, right?
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:13.200
If we here in London we have big tower blocks and I say, you know one of the tower blocks here in London, if that was kind of leaning over about to collapse, we probably need to stabilize it first, right?
00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:13.759
Right.
00:22:13.920 --> 00:22:15.440
So it's not going to collapse.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:16.000
Right.
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:20.000
M metaphorically, what I'm saying is like we need to stabilize.
00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:22.880
Let's get the nuts and bolts sorted.
00:22:23.119 --> 00:22:25.200
Let's get the drugs out of the equation.
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:28.880
And then let's start refurbishing the flaws bit by bit.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:34.240
But we can't refurbish the flaws until it's totally stable.
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:41.440
So what what I'm trying to say really, Dallas, is that first first section of treatment is stabilization.
00:22:41.839 --> 00:22:45.440
Second part of treatment is answering all those questions.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:46.559
Who am I now?
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:47.359
What am I doing?
00:22:47.519 --> 00:22:48.319
What is my meaning?
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:49.680
What is my purpose in this life?
00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:51.279
Who am I as a sexual being?
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:52.640
What is it that I want?
00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:54.960
And how do I do that?
00:22:55.279 --> 00:23:04.720
And that's that's where a therapist would come come in hand, or peers, or you know, a program of some sort, a recovery program, you know, really finding yourself.
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:06.880
But it's really a tippy-toe process, isn't it?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.279
You're not going to be diving in the deep end before you can even swim.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:12.319
Right.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:12.880
Yeah.
00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:14.480
It is a tippy-toe.
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:19.680
I I kind of I mean it's almost like walking through a minefield, it feels like, sometimes.
00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.519
Because you you kind of don't know what is going to trigger you.
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:30.720
You have to be very cautious about let me try the little bit of this, let me try the little bit of that, let me do, you know, let me let me fantasize about that.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:35.920
Let me watch, you know, let me and what's your your take on pornography then early on?
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.279
It's a difficult one, isn't it?
00:23:42.559 --> 00:23:50.720
Um for me, because you know, when when I'm working with clients, I I will go through masturbation.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:53.519
I think masturbation is very important in the process.
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.119
But masturbation is a relapse invention tool.
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.720
Not not necessarily masturbation for the luxury of masturbation.
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:07.279
It's more about kind of keeping the hormones to to a line of so they're not acting as as a trigger.
00:24:07.440 --> 00:24:09.200
But then how how do we masturbate?
00:24:09.359 --> 00:24:10.400
What do we masturbate to?
00:24:10.640 --> 00:24:12.319
What fantasy do we masturbate?
00:24:12.559 --> 00:24:25.039
And I in my experience often the guys I work with will their their their fantasy will go to um historical chemsex experiences, um, and they really struggle with that.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:39.359
So with porn, if it needs to be done, then use it, but then it's really important that you're not kind of watching the same type of pornography that you would have been watching in a chemsex party, for instance.
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:55.920
And there is a phenomenon out there, even with people in recovery, that is almost this more morbid curiosity that they will go to chemsex porn or or slamming porn, and that's incredibly dangerous because you pretty much relapse at that stage, right?
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:04.559
So to answer your question without going around the mountains is preferably no, no porn, but that's a tug-of-war, as you can imagine.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:16.960
But if you do use it, make sure it's not the same type of porn that you're using when you were using chemsex, use it for what you need it for, get the job done and close it, basically.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:18.640
That's straightforward.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:20.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:20.400 --> 00:25:29.599
I think it can be used too for a good way to explore what what is in your erotic template now to pursue.
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:44.079
Like I I use the example of fisting all the time, but so let's say I was not into fisting before myth, I got into it uh during chemsex, and now I want to see is fisting something I want to pursue?
00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:44.799
Right.
00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:53.279
So I think if you if you're masturbating or wanking as you c as you guys call it, wanking, masturbating, jerking off, whatever.
00:25:53.359 --> 00:26:11.680
If you're masturbating and you masturbate to a um a porn of fisting or a sober scenario in your mind of fisting, and it takes keeps taking you back to chemsex urges, then that's probably something you you don't want to it keep reinforcing that, you want to stay away from that.
00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:12.480
Is that right?
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.640
Um yes, yes, preferably.
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:21.119
I mean, I I always used to give the example because you know, with sex and food, it's very similar.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.359
They're both very primal.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:30.079
You you you will know when you need to release the same way as you know when you need to eat, right?
00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:31.119
Yeah, okay.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:42.799
Um so it's really about recognizing my urge because sex in itself can can get fused into a self-soothing mechanism, as can pornography, compulsive pornography.
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:46.400
We just have to be mindful of what I call the Russian doll syndrome.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:55.039
You know the Russian dolls, when you take one out, it's like take one out and it's like, oh my gosh, you know, I might not be doing cameras, but I'm spending like five hours watching porn every night.
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.119
That that that that's a problem.
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:57.599
Yeah.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:07.279
If if I'm if I'm using the porn for what it is, uh, you know, I just need a release, I need a sexual release, I need to get to orgasm.
00:27:07.599 --> 00:27:08.960
Bum, done.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:11.359
Yeah.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:12.319
Yeah.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:12.880
Okay.
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.640
Well, so I want to get to the topic.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:18.079
I think this is a good information.
00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:27.119
So in this second stage, we're working on our erotic desire cycle, and then we're going to try to reintroduce apps.
00:27:27.680 --> 00:27:28.079
Right.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:36.480
So do you suggest when the app is reintroduced, we're talking about grinder or sniffies or any of the, I guess the websites too.
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:42.799
Like, well, you want to you don't want to go to the other some of those bareback sites.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:45.279
Grinder or Sniffies, let's say.
00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.200
If you're would you reintroduce that into your recovery?
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:53.200
Do you suggest having a a safety plan first?
00:27:54.079 --> 00:27:55.920
Like some some yeah, what do you do?
00:27:56.079 --> 00:27:57.599
How do you help your men do that?
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:06.559
Yeah, so you know, when when I worked in treatment, when I worked in the residential treatment center, um everything I've just talked about was delivered as part of the treatments.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:11.759
And we go in the treatment, including masturbation as a relapse prevention to app hygiene.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:18.400
What what we would do in in treatments is is actually get them to design their their app?
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.000
What profile name are you are you gonna use?
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:23.759
What does your profile name say about you?
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:25.279
What picture are you gonna use?
00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:27.039
What does your dialogue say?
00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.279
What does your dialogue say about you?
00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:32.079
Are you are you gonna say that you're sober?
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.319
What are your safety mechanisms?
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:36.400
Can you automatically block?
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:38.960
What are you actually looking for?
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.640
Again, you know, the second stage is like, what am I looking for?
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:43.920
You know, because everybody's different.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:54.799
Some people say, you know what, Mike, you know, uh I'm I've done it, I'm exhausted with, you know, I've had so much sex, I I just want to date and hopefully I want to find a partner.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:55.920
Great, wonderful.
00:28:56.079 --> 00:29:01.359
And and some people say to me, you know what, Mike, you know, I love sex and I love kinky sex.
00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.759
I just don't want to be doing the drugs anymore.
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:06.000
Well, I still want to enjoy the sex.
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:08.240
Okay, let's explore that.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.759
How are you gonna do that?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.559
So that that will also be of what kind of app am I gonna go on?
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:19.839
You know, if I'm looking to date, for instance, grind's probably not the best site, right?
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:23.599
Maybe I prefer to go on Tinder.
00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:24.559
Yeah.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:30.319
Which is also a little bit safer, right, from a kind of here and now uh perspective.
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.240
But if I'm looking to enjoy casual sex, maybe grinder is that.
00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.720
But but then you've got to be really hyper-vigilant, you've got to put it out there and make it very clear.
00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.799
You know, because obviously when people are high, they also don't read.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:45.279
Right?
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:46.160
Exactly.
00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:47.839
They're just looking at pictures.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:55.839
So you often see on Grindr people put re-profile with a little arrow down, re-read, re-read profile.
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.759
But also kind of acknowledging the reasons that you're on there.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.480
You know, am I actually looking for sex right now?
00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:04.400
Or am I just lonely or board?
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:06.319
Am I looking for validation?
00:30:06.559 --> 00:30:08.160
What are my reasons for being here?
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:10.880
How am I feeling mentally and emotionally right now?
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:11.839
Is this a safe place?
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:13.359
Is it safe for me to be on here?
00:30:13.680 --> 00:30:15.519
What time of day am I using here?
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:19.119
You know, it can be dangerous at all times of the day.
00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:22.720
However, after 10 p.m., for instance, it's a bit more dangerous, right?
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:25.519
Or very early in the morning from four to six.
00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:31.440
So really pulling it to pieces, you know, of really kind of looking at that.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:49.759
In in the treatment centre, everybody basically, I mean, these are pretty much just designed with our pictures and um so when when they left treatment, they they knew exactly um what what their app was gonna look like when they decided to get to that stage.
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:56.079
And the same with masturbation, when before they left treatment, they knew how often they're gonna masturbate, what fancy they're gonna masturbate to.
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:56.799
Oh.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:11.680
Very, very structured, which which was nice with the treatment center because it was an LGBT treatment center and we had a chemsex track, was that's one of the benefits of not being in a generic heteronormative treatment center.
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:18.160
That that we can really explore those sides to it without shaming it or demonizing it.
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:19.359
Right.
00:31:19.599 --> 00:31:20.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:22.079
Yeah, okay.
00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:28.400
Yeah, so taking extra time to design what your app looks like.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:35.279
Maybe maybe one of your pictures can be you holding up a one of those key tea tags from the 12 steps.
00:31:35.759 --> 00:31:37.599
Clean and serene or something.
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:45.039
Well, I mean, personally, I mean, just just you know, it like also kind of making we don't have to make it so serious, right?
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.559
It it can be well to be a little bit of an activist, you know, you know, sober as sexy with a little muscle on, right?
00:31:52.720 --> 00:31:53.279
Yeah, right.
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:57.279
You know, sober as heart, no H, no POP.
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:06.000
Um really really trying to make it a little bit fun, but with a very serious message there.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:06.640
Yeah.
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:07.519
Yeah.
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:19.920
But but but also really having that, but I think the important bit is does a person feel confident enough that if somebody sends them a message saying, five of us playing high and horny, do you want to join us?
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:21.680
That they can just go block.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:22.319
Right.
00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:22.480
Right.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:26.720
How do you know if you're ready for that?
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.000
I don't think you ever really know you're you're ready.
00:32:32.079 --> 00:32:36.319
I mean, personally, what I I would do is give a time frame.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:46.880
Um six months I I personally believe is preferable um to to allow you to stabilize from the drugs and defuse.
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:53.359
Um but most people will really struggle, in my experience, to say, um six months.
00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:58.000
Um most people will go three months, and and that's that's a good start at least.
00:32:58.640 --> 00:32:58.799
Okay.
00:32:59.920 --> 00:33:00.240
Okay.
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:01.200
Yeah.
00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:04.000
Yeah, there's probably some questions to ask yourself.
00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.359
You know, what are you know what are your true intentions?
00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:09.039
Right?
00:33:09.599 --> 00:33:11.200
Okay to get on there.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:14.559
Um that's uh do you give any other advice?
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:17.519
So look at your profo profile name, maybe have some fun.
00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:19.359
What kind of pictures do you have?
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:24.640
Um what is the what do you have to say down there in terms of the the description in your name?
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:26.400
Do you have sober in it?
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:33.599
Um yeah, anything else there that you guide the guys around in terms of app hygiene?
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:49.519
I mean it's difficult because I'm I'm a therapist, so I would be um working with them and preferably what what I would be doing with them in that second stage of treatment is almost kind of mentoring through mentoring them through that experience.
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:50.079
Right?
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:54.000
So they're not just going solo um and going on the apps.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:58.319
It's something that can be discussed in the therapy room um as well.
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:00.400
But not everybody is in therapy.
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:09.599
So if you've got a coach, if you've got a sponsor, whoever whoever is your support system in your recovery, you utilize them.
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:13.920
Don't don't do it solo and don't don't do it in shame either.
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:14.480
Talk about it.
00:34:14.719 --> 00:34:15.039
Yeah.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:15.440
Yeah.
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:17.360
You know, don't don't do it in secrecy.
00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.920
It needs to be spoken about, it needs to be normalized.
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:23.679
It's okay, but be supportive in that.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.480
Yeah.
00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:25.119
Yeah.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:25.840
Yes.
00:34:26.079 --> 00:34:27.039
Yeah, that's a good point.
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:40.079
I mean, no, I have clients that'll come and say, you know, they they'll come and they either use or they're shaken up and they're like, you know, well, I got back on grinder last night and this happened or that happened.
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:43.199
And I'm like, why didn't why did you do that?
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:45.280
And not tell and tell me.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:50.559
You know, and you didn't tell, you didn't tell your sponsor, you didn't tell your team, you didn't tell the other clients in our chat.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:56.719
Like, I don't it's not something like you're saying, it's not don't do it in secrecy, don't do it without telling anybody.
00:34:56.800 --> 00:35:00.000
Like, get get make it make sure that you're protected.
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:04.239
Make sure there's there's a safe space and that people know to check in on you too, right?
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:06.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:10.800
Because just the fact that that's happening is a little bit of a warning sign, isn't it?
00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.440
The fact that I'm feeling and it's right.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:21.840
Needing to do that in secrecy for whatever reason, whether that's shame or I feel like I'm gonna be judged, um, or or or criticize.
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.280
It's a little bit of a red flag, and I need to stop pause and just ask myself why I'm doing that.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:29.199
That's right.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:29.920
That's right.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:30.880
Exactly right.
00:35:31.039 --> 00:35:32.480
Yeah, why did I do that?
00:35:32.639 --> 00:35:34.239
What am I really looking for?
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:40.719
Um, so I wanted to show you a little model that I have and just get your advice on it.
00:35:41.199 --> 00:35:43.039
Um I didn't show you this.
00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.239
Gonna get your your real-time reaction here.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:47.920
Let me share it.
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:56.559
Let me share it on the screen if you're watching, which by the way, you can watch this now on Apple iPod Apple Podcast too.
00:35:57.280 --> 00:35:59.599
Um okay, here we go.
00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:02.159
Okay.
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:08.239
So this is a little mo little model that it's it looks it looks complicated, but it isn't.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:14.159
So before you open the app, so the phone is in your hand, pause.
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.480
So am I on autopilot?
00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:21.039
Which means, you know, am I reacting to getting rejected?
00:36:21.280 --> 00:36:22.800
Did a guy ghost me?
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:26.559
Am I feeling really lonely and desperate?
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.599
Like, am I on autopilot?
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:30.880
So don't open that.
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:37.599
So once you try to open the app, wait 90 seconds, ask yourself, where am I?
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.559
Why am I clicking on this app right now?
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:41.440
Yeah.
00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:43.440
So you name the need.
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.719
Yeah, what am I seeking?
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:46.960
Do I am I seeking connection?
00:36:47.119 --> 00:36:50.239
Do I need somebody to validate me because I'm feeling ugly?
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:55.760
Am I trying to escape am I trying to escape but my world right now?
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:56.320
Right?
00:36:56.559 --> 00:37:00.239
If those are the reasons, can I meet them another way?
00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:01.599
Right?
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:05.519
So if I can meet them another way, yes, do it.
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.199
Uh and then, but if I if I can't meet them another way, then continue.
00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:15.760
So that's when it goes into the conscious decision of checking in with yourself.
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:18.239
You know, are you feeling empowered?
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:23.519
Which would be clear, sober, and stable, or are you feeling desperate?
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:28.239
Like, do is there a sense of urgency, like I gotta fuck right now?
00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:33.039
Or I got somebody somebody needs to tell me I have a big dick right now, right?
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:34.880
Like, am I escaping?
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:35.599
Am I measuring?
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:36.400
Am I at risk?
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:49.119
So if you're in a desperate state, if there's like an instant gratification type energy, stop, don't open the app or close the app, whatever it is, but just feel that for 90 seconds.
00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:53.280
And then if you do end up open it, do you have a time limit?
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:59.599
Set a timer somewhere, or you know, you could be on Grinder for three hours before you know it.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.599
So, how long you want to be on it?
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.559
Let's plan that ahead and have an act exit plan.
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:21.840
So if I'm triggered, there's if I if I even click on a profile that has H or P and P or an emoji that means parting, if I even just click on it, I need to tell somebody right away, I just clicked on this profile, close, close the app.
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:25.199
Um, and then if and then you can use it.
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:26.320
What do you think about this?
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:27.440
I really like it.
00:38:27.519 --> 00:38:28.320
I really like it.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:49.360
I I like the unconscious and I like the conscious because if if we think then about the nature of impulsivity, um it's usually because the prefrontal cortex is narrowed and I'm working on uh my emotional my emotional brain, which which means I don't have that ability to really think it through.
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:57.039
So by having those kind of stop, pause, and breathe, and just ask yourself some simple questions, is it's a really, really good intervention.
00:38:57.199 --> 00:38:58.480
I like it a lot, Dallas.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:02.239
Of course, you can.
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:03.360
Send it to me.
00:39:03.599 --> 00:39:05.119
I will, I'll send it to you.
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:06.800
Uh I send it to you.
00:39:07.039 --> 00:39:15.039
Um yeah, it's so that prefrontal cortex being offline, doesn't that happen too when you're in an aroused, sexually aroused state?
00:39:15.360 --> 00:39:19.199
Yeah, no, absolutely, and and craving, and craving as well.
00:39:19.599 --> 00:39:20.639
Um, anything.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:31.039
So with prefrontal cortex narrowing, it's obviously trauma, um, fear, anger, um, shame can actually do it as well.
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:37.360
And and actually euphoric states, yeah, in that very fancy-based uh th thinking.
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:47.360
And it's a danger zone because you can't think it through clearly by doing an exercise like that, when what you're doing is forcing your prefrontal cortex to switch back on.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:48.880
So bringing it back online.
00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:49.519
Yeah.
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:49.840
Yeah.
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:50.960
No, I like it.
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:51.679
I like it a lot.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.159
Yeah.
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:52.719
Good.
00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:53.840
And thank you.
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.599
And then I mean, breathing could help.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:39:58.559
Isn't that right?
00:39:58.719 --> 00:40:03.440
Like it breathing itself, like a breath work practice, bro, box breathing or something like that.
00:40:03.599 --> 00:40:05.519
Can't that at least give you a pause?
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:06.320
Yeah.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:06.559
Yeah.
00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:06.960
Yeah.
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:15.280
I saw I saw through in one of your videos actually, I think it was on LinkedIn, you did the the three stages of relapse, right?
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.159
The emotional, mental, and and and physical.
00:40:18.320 --> 00:40:23.599
And I I use that my myself, and I usually put a little intervention for each one.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:28.079
Uh with the emotional part, you kind of are within your window of tolerance.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.719
Are you and you're free from the cortex, it's switched on, but you just want to keep it switched on.
00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:38.480
So I put the stop, stop exercise where you stop, pause, breathe, and just do a little reflection.
00:40:38.559 --> 00:40:44.239
And a nice way to do that reflection is just put the holts into the equation hungry, angry, learning, tired.
00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:48.239
And then for chemsense, of course, ask yourself that final question.
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:49.679
Am I honey?
00:40:50.800 --> 00:40:53.280
Usually I'm hungry, angry, learning, tired, right?
00:40:54.079 --> 00:41:02.320
Um when we go into the mental part of that, which is pretty much a pre-filter cortex narrowing when we're in obsession, right?
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:12.320
Then then we put your tip, which is temperature, intense exercise, and progressive muscle relaxation or breath work um in there.
00:41:12.719 --> 00:41:15.360
Um and then just a decisional balance.
00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:21.360
So just looking once my pre-filter cortex is switched back on, you know, what what are the positives and consequences?
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:25.199
We use this for apps as well as kind of drug using as well, you know.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:27.760
What are the positives of me going on to this right now?
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:35.920
Maybe I'm just like 30 days um in into my recovery and I'm downloading grinder, I probably need to stop, pause, and breathe into that.
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:37.760
I just think I see what's happening.
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:38.239
Yeah.
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:39.360
Yeah.
00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:40.800
Yes, yeah.
00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:52.559
Yeah, and if you're if you're listening and you think that's a a lot of work to do to just be on grinder, then maybe you're not ready to be on it.
00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:54.719
You know?
00:41:55.199 --> 00:41:56.639
Maybe you just start.
00:41:58.320 --> 00:42:01.679
You know, think about the why you're asking yourself, like, I don't want to do all that.
00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:03.760
Why do you want it?
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.639
Why are you on it then?
00:42:04.719 --> 00:42:06.159
You know, what are you willing to do here?
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:13.119
Because this that that grinder, even the grinder ding can be a trigger.
00:42:14.000 --> 00:42:15.760
It can put you in the mood.
00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:17.199
In the mode.
00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:24.239
This is highly the chemsex recovery is just so high so many layers and it's so complicated.
00:42:25.119 --> 00:42:28.559
And this the apps make it so much worse.
00:42:29.360 --> 00:42:30.800
So really be on it.
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:33.199
And this is the same with sniffies too.
00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:40.639
Sniffies is even, you know, a little bit worse because the the profile pictures can be your penis or your asshole.
00:42:40.880 --> 00:42:45.119
You know, you can get you in the mood real fast to use.
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:50.239
Um, and don't tell me you're looking for a boyfriend on sniffies, because I don't buy that whatsoever.
00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:51.679
I mean, it's possible.
00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:54.880
But that's probably not why you're on there, right?
00:42:55.280 --> 00:42:55.760
Yeah.
00:42:55.920 --> 00:42:56.320
Yeah.
00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:59.119
I don't think sniffers is very big in the UK.
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:04.320
I actually only heard about sniffers myself from an American uh client.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:05.840
He says sniffers is really dangerous.
00:43:05.920 --> 00:43:08.159
And I said, Sniffers once what are sniffers?
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:12.719
It's like and don't I heard about sniffers, but it's apparently quite big in the United States, right?
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:13.760
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:14.000 --> 00:43:18.159
Yeah, well, I will say when I was in London, I looked it was active.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:19.519
In London.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:20.159
Okay.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:20.639
Yeah, I'm not sure.
00:43:21.440 --> 00:43:22.880
I think I'm just getting odd, Dallas.
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:23.920
I'm just getting old.
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:24.719
I'm sorry.
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:29.119
I better start educating myself before I get out of fashion.
00:43:29.519 --> 00:43:32.400
They'll be like, oh, that addiction therapist is historic.
00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:33.920
He doesn't know what that means.
00:43:34.239 --> 00:43:34.800
Right.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:41.760
No, I I looked when I traveled to Europe, I liked looking at I don't know.
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:43.280
I I I wanted to see what it was like.
00:43:43.360 --> 00:43:47.039
So I I did open Grinder, I downloaded a Grinder and I made a profile.
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:50.079
I I've actually I downloaded a grinder, I already have a profile.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:53.599
My picture, I I didn't realize my picture was on the profile.
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.760
And this sounds arrogant, but it's not.
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:58.639
But I started getting messages like, oh, you're down.
00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.480
uh you know, the chemsex guy or whatever.
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:08.320
Um, and even got invited to a H H party, which was really strange.
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:21.679
Um, but I I wanted to see, and I will say the the landscape of Grinder in London was actually everything that I had heard very heavily, heavily H H, heavily chemsex.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.559
Um, but I I did check out Sniffy's too.
00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:28.559
It wasn't as active, but it there was plenty going on there, at least.
00:44:28.800 --> 00:44:31.679
Um so yeah, it's interesting.
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:38.960
Um yeah, I mean I just you know there's so many things to be cautious about here, guys, and you have to be intentional.
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:45.440
Um intentional, thoughtful, and you and and it takes patience and it's going to take time.
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.800
And like we said earlier, meth is a shortcut to these things.
00:44:49.519 --> 00:44:56.719
But the the alternative is you're gonna have to take the long way around to get this th to to get what you need, to get what you want.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:58.000
But you can get it.
00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:03.280
There's no You know what they say no pain, no gain, Dallas?
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:04.480
That's right.
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:19.199
Um and it's really not that painful it's it's just really just acknowledging your safety really your safety is is is the most important thing really and just really asking yourself that question am I safe?
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:20.639
Am I safe?
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:21.840
I love that.
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:38.159
Yeah because you said connection equals safety and in the safe i if you feel safe when you're in that safe environment that's where you can you can explore you can take a little calculated risks you know you you can heal in that safe environment.
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.880
Yeah well Mike what did I miss today?
00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:47.519
Is there something I didn't ask that you wish I had of or something you want to talk about?
00:45:47.840 --> 00:45:58.000
Um no I think I think we covered a lot really just um do do a little shout out to where I work and our structured weekend programme.
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:04.719
Oh yes yes yes that that is starting so what tell can you tell us about that?
00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:16.800
Yeah so I I work in London and I work in a private practice but I also work for an amazing clinic um called Innisfree um it's based in Mondyburn in central London.
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:43.599
It is a sexual compulsivity disorder clinic I work there as a chemsen consultant and we're starting an amazing program um with which is a weekend structured program uh from a Friday night all the way through to Sunday it's basically just based on a community um outpatient program but on the weekends because that that's where the majority of the people really struggle.
00:46:43.840 --> 00:47:10.480
So we're basically filling the gaps from a Friday to Sunday and offering an intensive structured day program from 11am to 6 p.m it will be a combination of your traditional relapse prevention psychosexual and trauma informed treatments with with the aim being on connection it'll be all gay gay men or men who have sex with men in the program nice I love it I love it.
00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:18.320
So we'll put in the show notes a link to that if you can give us a link or information or something like that we'll put it in the show notes.
00:47:18.800 --> 00:47:24.559
If you send me some send me anything too about that I'll share it on my social media as well.
00:47:24.880 --> 00:47:25.199
Yeah.
00:47:25.519 --> 00:48:22.400
Amazing such a needed service where you are such a needed service yeah well yeah I think it's gonna be amazing because I don't know what it's like in the United States but here in the UK with with meth and chemsex in in general a lot a lot of the funding goes into uh harm reduction yeah and and there's very little in the way of abstinence and there's something very powerful about having a specific chemsex program for gay bite or manual sex with men where you can create a safe space and they can share well I think it's the opposite here I think they're getting rid of harm reduction programs in the US I think there's a need for it but but there's also a need for abstinence right I mean we need to keep people alive until they can get absent basically that's right let's keep them alive until they get recovery.
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:47.679
Right right yeah yeah I think so too I think so too okay well Michael thank you so much for Mike thanks for being here thank you appreciate it so much so nice to meet you by Dallas good luck with the thing and I really loved um the the app the app map I really like yeah I'll send that to you I'll send that to you please all right all right guys thank you guys see you next week bye
