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Hello and Happy New Year! My name is Jim Bennett and I am joining Ian Wilkes for another year of Inside Out Podcasts.
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Ian concluded last year with a podcast where he was in charge, flying solo, but not solo, because James Burnham joined him for another magnificent visit.
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Ian, well done.
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What was that experience like, just you and James?
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Yeah.
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Happy New Year, Jim.
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Hope you had a great time over the holidays, you and your family.
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The conversation, the podcast we did with James Burnham end of last year was excellent.
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He is a wonderful man.
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He has a big heart.
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He's living in Hiroshima in Japan, writing a new album.
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As you know, he served his mission in Japan and he's there for a year or so on this new adventure.
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It was a wonderful conversation.
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He led us into the podcast with a great song that is written and he had one at the end.
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So I really enjoyed it.
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He's got a great story.
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And yeah, it was wonderful and very spiritual.
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There was a great spirit in the conversation.
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So yeah, great to have him back on.
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Well, yeah, I agree.
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I thought his songs, it would be nice.
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He sent us actually studio recordings of the songs.
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And so I'm wondering if maybe I should tack those on either to that podcast or to this podcast, because it's really difficult to get the audio effect of just how good they were.
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from what we're doing here.
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But we're moving on to a different topic here.
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This is a new year, which means it's a new subject for Come Follow Me.
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And the church has standardized its lessons, not just in Sunday school, but just across the board.
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And the Come Follow Me subject this year, every year, it's a different volume of scripture.
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Last year, it was the Book of Mormon.
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This year, it's the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History.
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And one of the things that's been very interesting about this is that the Come Follow Me topics are not just covered in Sunday School, in Priesthood, in Relief Society.
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They are also covered in Primary as well.
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And the Primary releases a manual, a children's manual that's illustrated.
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And it's been a long time since I cracked open a physical manual of any kind.
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They used to, at the beginning of the year, they would pass out.
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I remember during the whole teachings of the prophets, you'd have a different manual every year for priesthood with a different prophet on the cover because you were covering the teachings of Wilford Woodruff or the teachings of David O.
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McKay.
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But very quickly, that became sort of an online thing.
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I stopped picking up those physical manuals because I could read the manuals online, and pretty much everything has moved online.
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And so has the children's manual, the primary manual for church history.
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And one of the things that has attracted a great deal of attention is the fact that this year's church history primary manual includes an article or a section about plural marriage, which is not something...
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I know, Ian, you never went to primary.
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You joined the church...
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past your primary years, but your children went to primary, did they not?
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They did.
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Yes, they went through the whole primary program.
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I joined at 16, you know, but they went through the entire church primary youth curriculum.
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And how many times did they come back and say, hey, dad, today we learned about plural marriage in primary?
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Big fat zero.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I did not learn about plural marriage in primary growing up.
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Back in my day, primary, you had all these cutesy little names.
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I remember being a targeteer and being a blazer.
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All the classes had their own names.
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The blazers, we even had a song.
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Light the torch, light the torch, blaze the way to the priesthood of God.
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Because the blazers were blazing the trail to the Aaronic priesthood.
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So I still have goofy memories of all of that.
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What I don't have are any memories of plural marriage even coming up?
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And in fact, every time, even in the adult curriculum, every time we get to section 132, the instructions in the manual, because I taught seminary for three years and I taught church history in seminary for three years.
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No, I taught church history.
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I taught the Old Testament.
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I taught the New Testament.
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I taught church history.
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I never taught a year of the Book of Mormon when I was a seminary teacher.
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But in all of the manuals where I've taught church history, there was always a disclaimer, always a, please don't focus on plural marriage.
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If plural marriage comes up, here's how you might want to deal with it.
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But it always struck me as disingenuous and somewhat misleading to discuss section 132 and presume it was about anything other than plural marriage.
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And in fact, There are elements of it that I think are wonderful and beautiful.
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And the whole idea of bringing, binding the whole human family together through the sealing ordinance, that's all in section 132.
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And that becomes the focus of the lesson.
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And there's usually a great deal to talk about there.
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So it's not hard to do to sort of sidestep plural marriage.
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But I really...
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This I...
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The idea of putting it in the primary manual is getting a lot of criticism.
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And I want to say at the outset that I think this is a good thing, or at least the impulse behind it is good.
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Because throughout my life, the strategy with regard to plural marriage has been to pretend it didn't happen.
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Or if it did happen, to pretend it was this tiny little aberration.
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I remember...
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Did you read, it was part of the missionary library.
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Do you remember the book Truth Restored by Gordon B.
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Hinckley?
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I do.
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It has a chapter on plural marriage, but it just says, oh, this was just something that was done very temporarily.
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It really, it very quickly dismisses it.
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It says this was done as a religious principle and it was gone fairly quickly and let's not talk about it anymore.
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And that really was the extent to which plural marriage was addressed in official church materials for years and years and years.
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But here we have the primary plural marriage.
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It's short enough.
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Would you mind if I were just to read the whole thing?
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It's not very long.
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Go ahead.
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All right.
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It says, and there are pictures, and the pictures are really kind of fun.
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While the prophet Joseph...
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I want to stop there.
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Because the Lord didn't say that.
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I mean, the Lord did say that to some degree in the Book of Mormon.
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But in section 132...
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Well, actually, okay, I'm going to give that a little more...
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If you go back and look at it, it talks about the fact that David and Solomon were not justified in the plural wives they took beyond the ones that were authorized.
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So I guess you could...
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Right there, I have a problem with that statement.
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All right, but I'm going to keep going.
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The Lord said that usually a man should have only one wife, but sometimes the Lord commanded his people to be in marriages of one man and more than one woman.
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This was called plural marriage.
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The Lord told Joseph that his people should only be in plural marriages if he commands it.
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Again, that's a little skittish, but okay.
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A few years later, the Lord told Joseph to marry other women.
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Joseph didn't want to marry other wives, but he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
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When Joseph asked a woman to marry him, he told her to pray about it.
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He wanted her to know from the Lord that it was right.
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The picture on this is just so much fun.
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It's just Joseph with his face and his hands like, oh no, all is lost.
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I'm so miserable.
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I have to have sex with so many other women.
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Anyway, sorry.
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This commandment was also hard for Joseph's first wife, Emma.
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Sometimes Emma helped Joseph decide who he should ask to marry him.
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Other times, Emma did not want Joseph to marry other women.
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That's...
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That's as big an understatement as you can possibly make.
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I mean, there was a very narrow window in which Emma was open to plural marriage and said, okay, fine, you can marry the Partridge sisters.
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But the problem was Joseph had already married the Partridge sisters without telling Emma.
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And so he staged a second wedding ceremony.
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where he married the Parker sisters all over again and said, please don't tell Emma that this is the second time we've done this.
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So there's really a whole lot of finessing is the kindest word I can use.
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Sweeping things under the carpet, understating.
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I mean, just saying other times Emma did not want Joseph to marry other women.
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Yeah, all other times and including the entire rest of her life where she denied that Joseph ever practiced polygamy.
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I mean, she was just a vehement opponent to plural marriage from the outset.
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When Doctrine and Covenants section 132 was written, it was first written to give to Hiram so that Hiram could go, because Hiram said, hey, if you give me a revelation, I can take it to Emma.
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And I can convince her.
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And Joseph says, yeah, you don't know Emma like I do.
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But he dictated the revelation.
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Hiram wrote it down, took it into Emma.
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Emma threw it on the fireplace and burned it.
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And so the version we have now later was dictated later.
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And there's debate as to— Whether or not it was actually dictated or whether it's a forgery by Brigham Young, I don't know that we want to get into that here.
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We've talked about that before.
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Anyway, finishing this article.
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So Joseph taught the 12 apostles about plural marriage.
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It was a hard commandment for them too.
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Okay, again, this is not telling the full story.
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Joseph taught the 12 apostles, but he taught them onesie twosie.
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There were some apostles that knew, there were some apostles that did not.
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And there was a lot of contention behind the scenes as to whether Joseph was really authorizing plural marriage.
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I think eventually all 12 apostles found out about it.
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I'm not sure if they found out about it directly from Joseph.
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It may have been after Joseph died.
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But anyway, and to say it was a hard commandment for them to, again, that's finessing things because I think Certainly, Brigham Young, I mean, Brigham Young is on record as saying that he envied the dead when he first heard about it.
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But Brigham Young clearly, throughout the course of his life, came to embrace it to the point where saying it was a hard commandment for him really did not describe Brigham Young's experience.
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Anyway, Brigham Young and his wife, Marianne, prayed a lot.
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Okay, Marianne was his second wife, but his first wife had died.
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Anyway.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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In 1890, the Lord told Wilford Woodruff, the president of the church, that men should not marry more than one wife anymore.
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Okay, I want to stop there because that, I think, is just not accurate.
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Because the manifesto now, in hindsight, we look at it and we say, yeah, okay.
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The Lord told that was a revelation.
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When you read the language of the manifesto in Official Declaration 2, and there is no hint of a revelation in it.
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It is, I've just told everybody to stop performing marriages that are contrary to the laws of the land.
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And the idea that this was the end of plural marriage because the Lord revealed to Wilford Woodruff that plural marriage had to end in 1890 is belied by the facts, facts that got D.
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Michael Quinn excommunicated, because the legacy of post-manifesto polygamy is very well documented.
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And the manifesto essentially just ended polygamy in the United States, and leaders sent...
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members of the church to Mexico.
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That's where the Mexican colonies began because you had people saying, okay, if we can't do this in the United States, we'll continue practicing plural marriage elsewhere.
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A number of members, a number of apostles entered into plural marriage after 1890.
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So if there had been a revelation to Wilford Woodruff ending plural marriage, we wouldn't have had to have the second manifesto which took place, I mean, you could even argue there was a third manifesto.
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It wasn't until 1910, 20 years after 1890, you can do the math, that plural marriage became an excommunicable offense, that the church no longer tolerated plural marriage.
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If you entered into plural marriage after 1910, you could be excommunicated.
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But if you entered into plural marriage for a full 20 years, between 1890 and 1910, There was no revelation from Wilford Woodruff that denied that.
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Or if there was, we've never seen it.
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Anyway, so it then says, the leaders of the church shared these commandments with the saints.
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This is still the Lord's commandment today.
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A man should be married to only one wife.
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Now, all of these have links.
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That's the end of the article.
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They all have links to not only scriptures, but to pages in saints.
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which is the new church history, which I think is a very good church history, that does, I really think, a very good job of confronting difficult, hard facts.
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And I think the way polygamy is described in Saints is fairly consistent with this, but I think Saints also obviously gets into more detail and gets into some of the nuances that I brought up here.
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So there's the article.
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This is what we're now teaching our children in primary.
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You don't have children in primary.
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I don't have children in primary anymore.
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But I'd be very interested to hear your reaction to this.
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What do you think?
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It's quite an extraordinary development, I think.
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You said at the outset that you thought, I think you said you thought this generally was a positive thing.
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Yeah.
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in respect to bringing this to primary children and youth.
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And broadly, very broadly, I agree.
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You've gone through the article.
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I have real issues with the article.
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Before I get into some specifics here, because I want to touch on some of the specific points in that, I just want to remind us and our listeners of a...
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An important lesson, which was in the old gospel principles manual that we used to teach from, if you remember those, when our investigators would join the church, when they'd just been baptized, they would get a copy of the gospel principles.
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These are the fundamental principles that the church taught going back.
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These books were written in the 70s, and we gave them out in the 80s.
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The church has still got this material.
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His lesson is still on its website.
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I just want to share something that I think is really, really important.
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So the lesson is chapter 31, the old gospel principles book, and it's titled Honesty.
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And in the lesson, it says here that lying is intentionally deceiving others.
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Bearing false witness is a form of lying.
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The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel.
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Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
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Jesus also taught this when he was on the earth.
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There are many other forms of lying.
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When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying.
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We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look or by silence or by telling only part of the truth.
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Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
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And the lesson does not pull any punches in regards to the importance and the value of being honest.
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It's also in the 13th article of faith, which says we believe in being honest.
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There's many references in that lesson to the Book of Mormon.
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There's a number of other materials which were written by General authorities are referenced by general authorities.
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There's also a talk by Neal A.
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Maxwell, which talks extensively about the importance of being honest, which he makes references to that lesson, I understand.
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So going back to the article here, whilst I agree with your comment that the decision by the church to include this in the children's material is broadly a positive thing.
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The church, in my opinion, falls well short, frankly, and I want to give some examples there that you've kind of touched upon them, of still, even now, can't be completely honest, still withholding some important elements of the facts.
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And just for context, we know why they're doing this.
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It's a very intelligent decision, again, by the church in terms of retaining primary and, you know, dealing with these issues early on in the life of a child.
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And I would call that, it's like a form, or it actually is inoculation.
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You know, when we inoculate ourselves, we're preparing ourselves for a potential risk of, you know, virus or disease.
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You know, when I was young, I got the measles jab.
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I got the chicken pox jab.
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I don't think I got measles, I think, when I was younger.
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I still had the jab.
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You
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didn't have a chicken pox vaccine when you were younger.
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I don't think.
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I think that's fairly recent.
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Is it?
00:20:30.636 --> 00:20:30.798
Right.
00:20:30.837 --> 00:20:37.605
Well, I remember getting two jabs as a kid in school way back now, and it was to inoculate you for these things.
00:20:37.625 --> 00:20:37.986
That's right.
00:20:38.547 --> 00:20:52.042
And so it's a very smart move by the church to address these issues early on in a child's life, because when a child gets to 10, 12, has got the internet, et cetera, and will discover all these issues online.
00:20:52.083 --> 00:20:56.528
And so the church is trying to inoculate the primary.
00:20:56.548 --> 00:21:06.603
So when they do have When these issues come up, they know that they were taught these things to an extent, you know, early on in primary.
00:21:06.643 --> 00:21:07.763
So I understand that.
00:21:08.184 --> 00:21:13.992
The churches, someone told me over the holidays, somebody very senior that we hope to get on the podcast.
00:21:14.012 --> 00:21:15.095
They're very high up in the church.
00:21:15.134 --> 00:21:17.699
They're at the temple presidency level.
00:21:18.058 --> 00:21:18.980
We'll talk about this later.
00:21:19.481 --> 00:21:22.425
The church has a strategy to inoculate.
00:21:23.266 --> 00:21:35.102
youth and primary, which makes sense, to deal with these issues and slowly kind of open up these issues early on in order to retain and hang on to the primary and hang on to the youth.
00:21:35.363 --> 00:21:46.117
You said several times that the church is hemorrhaging significant numbers of youth who are not bothered about religion, not just about whether it's true or not.
00:21:46.679 --> 00:21:49.281
And so the church has to contend with all these different challenges.
00:21:49.722 --> 00:21:51.865
How does it hold on to its future?
00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:54.292
Well, you invest in the primary.
00:21:54.692 --> 00:22:02.163
So just getting into the children's material here, I agree with you.
00:22:02.263 --> 00:22:06.068
I couldn't find anything where God...
00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:10.615
He read about prophets like Abraham and Moses who had been married to more than one wife.
00:22:10.674 --> 00:22:12.136
Joseph wondered about that.
00:22:12.857 --> 00:22:18.326
And then where the Lord said that usually a man should have only one wife.
00:22:18.445 --> 00:22:20.890
I couldn't find anything that...
00:22:21.602 --> 00:22:23.785
was explicit in respect to that.
00:22:24.605 --> 00:22:26.868
So that is not true.
00:22:27.990 --> 00:22:39.006
Where I'm going with this is that the church is still falling short on the facts and the context in teaching the children here.
00:22:39.046 --> 00:22:49.740
And I find that if we go by that standard that we just read, by that logic, by that principle, those lessons on honesty, by not telling the...
00:22:51.362 --> 00:22:59.573
the full truth, you know, withholding a little, actually quite a lot, that's, by definition, dishonest.
00:23:00.233 --> 00:23:12.810
And the other point as well, we talked about this, if you're teaching, if you're not, by that definition, if you're not being honest when you're teaching this lesson, you know, to children or youth or whoever, is the Holy Ghost present?
00:23:13.551 --> 00:23:55.474
If you're deliberately withholding information, withholding the facts, we taught that the Holy Ghost teaches truth and if you speak a lie it won't confirm that lie as a truth that was fundamental that's the bedrock of the gospel that's the fundamental principle of the gospel that the holy ghost testifies of truth it doesn't testify of lies or deception um so and then the other thing which i find very disturbing in this material is um you know he says here that uh Joseph decided to ask the Lord, which is fine.
00:23:56.736 --> 00:24:00.582
The Lord said that usually a man should only have one wife, etc.
00:24:02.324 --> 00:24:05.808
And he talked about plural marriage there.
00:24:05.828 --> 00:24:10.193
The Lord told Joseph that people should only be in plural marriage if he commands it.
00:24:10.815 --> 00:24:13.699
And then a few years later, he told Joseph to marry other women.
00:24:13.979 --> 00:24:16.323
Joseph didn't want to marry other women.
00:24:17.344 --> 00:24:18.685
There's so much missing there.
00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:24.516
There's other relationships that Joseph had with other women that Emma didn't know about.
00:24:24.556 --> 00:24:27.380
And you've mentioned that as well.
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:32.506
There's no reference to that anywhere in this material.
00:24:32.546 --> 00:24:39.433
You know, when Joseph asked to marry, she says, but a few years later, the Lord told Joseph to marry other women.
00:24:39.894 --> 00:24:42.999
Joseph didn't want to marry otherwise, but he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
00:24:43.038 --> 00:24:47.243
When Joseph asked a woman to marry him, he told her to pray about it.
00:24:47.644 --> 00:24:49.006
Which woman are we talking about?
00:24:49.218 --> 00:24:51.039
Which woman are they referring to here?
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.844
The details are so important.
00:24:53.864 --> 00:24:55.425
You know, children like stories.
00:24:55.526 --> 00:24:56.406
They like detail.
00:24:58.390 --> 00:25:01.994
And when my kids were growing up, I was pretty good at telling stories.
00:25:02.174 --> 00:25:03.436
In fact, I was too good.
00:25:03.457 --> 00:25:10.184
I used to inadvertently, one time, one story got a little bit scary.
00:25:11.047 --> 00:25:15.112
And Debbie said, oh, that's a bit too much because the kids are probably a little bit scared of that story.
00:25:15.132 --> 00:25:16.653
I was pretty good at storytelling.
00:25:17.218 --> 00:25:18.660
Kids love stories.
00:25:18.700 --> 00:25:19.641
They like the details.
00:25:20.982 --> 00:25:25.828
So, you know, when he says here, when Joseph asked a woman to marry him, who is that, Jim?
00:25:26.930 --> 00:25:28.112
He told her to pray about it.
00:25:28.311 --> 00:25:28.613
Is that...
00:25:29.534 --> 00:25:30.674
No, let's get specific here.
00:25:30.714 --> 00:25:32.837
Who is the material talking about?
00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:34.941
We don't know that, do we?
00:25:36.702 --> 00:25:39.686
He wanted her to know from the Lord that it was right.
00:25:40.728 --> 00:25:45.153
Well, I mean, if you look at the timing of plural marriage...
00:25:46.210 --> 00:25:59.428
Joseph had his relationship with Fanny Alger long before plural marriage became what it became in Nauvoo.
00:25:59.667 --> 00:26:10.182
So Fanny Alger, we're looking at about 1835 or 1836, probably before the Kirtland Temple, and then no other plural marriages for another five years.
00:26:10.983 --> 00:26:17.683
So critics generally say, okay, Joseph had an affair with in 1835 with Fanny Alger.
00:26:18.665 --> 00:26:20.248
Oliver Cowdery called it an affair.
00:26:20.327 --> 00:26:22.411
It's one of the reasons Oliver Cowdery left the church.
00:26:23.251 --> 00:26:30.663
And it's one of the reasons I don't have a lot of patience for people who say, oh, geez, Joseph never practiced plural marriage.
00:26:30.903 --> 00:26:37.031
I mean, I think the fact that Oliver Cowdery was concerned enough about what happened with Fanny Alger suggests that.
00:26:37.112 --> 00:26:43.781
So, I mean, in this article, that doesn't seem to be a reference to Fanny Alger.
00:26:44.513 --> 00:26:53.463
because the revelation on plural marriage as we have it wasn't dictated until Nauvoo, until very late in Joseph Smith's life.
00:26:53.884 --> 00:26:54.345
So anyway.
00:26:55.467 --> 00:27:00.813
So, yeah, I was thinking of Fanny Alger when I was reading this, but there's no specific reference to who this person is.
00:27:01.874 --> 00:27:03.496
But he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
00:27:03.895 --> 00:27:05.478
Joseph asked a woman to marry him.
00:27:05.518 --> 00:27:07.319
Did Emma know about that?
00:27:07.601 --> 00:27:08.801
I suspect she didn't.
00:27:10.124 --> 00:27:11.404
She didn't know about Fanny Alger.
00:27:11.444 --> 00:27:12.066
We know that.
00:27:12.385 --> 00:27:18.753
No, I don't know if I know the analogy, but whoever this woman is that is referencing the material, did Emma know about that?
00:27:18.894 --> 00:27:21.196
And probably she did not know about that.
00:27:21.738 --> 00:27:25.563
And again, by that logic, by that church same standard, is that honest?
00:27:26.104 --> 00:27:35.096
How do you reconcile that whole secret marrying, having these physical relationships, et cetera?
00:27:35.135 --> 00:27:38.339
How do you reconcile that with not telling Emma?
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:39.862
I just can't get past that.
00:27:40.642 --> 00:27:44.606
Okay, plural marriage, let's give him a little bit of benefit here.
00:27:44.646 --> 00:27:46.528
Let's say he didn't want a practical plural marriage.
00:27:47.148 --> 00:27:49.672
He couldn't stand the thought of it, let's say, for argument's sake.
00:27:50.512 --> 00:27:58.301
And why not go to your wife and say, look, God has commanded me, as soon as the revelation happens, you and I would do this.
00:27:59.083 --> 00:28:10.990
If we got a revelation from God who told us to, right now, we're married, he told us to have more than one wife, the revelation was clear, And what would we do?
00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:23.547
We would go to our wives and we would share the experience, explain the revelation, describe what happened, and we would lay it all out in front of our wives, wouldn't we?
00:28:23.686 --> 00:28:24.728
We would do that, wouldn't we?
00:28:25.107 --> 00:28:31.615
Whether it's 2024 or 1835 or 1832, it doesn't matter.
00:28:32.017 --> 00:28:35.621
Principles of honesty and decency and integrity never change.
00:28:36.721 --> 00:28:42.500
The fundamental principles of the gospel, like Christ taught, And the prophets taught have never changed.
00:28:42.540 --> 00:28:45.223
Honesty has been an internal principle, has it not?
00:28:46.346 --> 00:28:59.843
From the very beginning, the very foundations of the church, from the time of the war in heaven, from the very beginning, it's the thing that holds up the universe, right?
00:28:59.863 --> 00:29:06.570
Is integrity and honesty and laws of physics and laws of these fundamental principles, which are eternal, are they not?
00:29:07.051 --> 00:29:07.352
They are.
00:29:07.392 --> 00:29:08.534
And so...
00:29:09.026 --> 00:29:11.469
We can't argue that this was a different time.
00:29:11.489 --> 00:29:14.594
It was different back then, so we could be dishonest back then.
00:29:14.854 --> 00:29:20.662
But why not, after the revelation, go to your wife and sit down and say, have I done a revelation?
00:29:21.022 --> 00:29:21.763
It's disturbing.
00:29:21.804 --> 00:29:24.426
It's making me sick and ill.
00:29:24.507 --> 00:29:25.127
I don't want to do it.
00:29:25.147 --> 00:29:26.068
This is what happened.
00:29:26.089 --> 00:29:27.030
This is what the Lord said.
00:29:27.711 --> 00:29:29.755
Why not involve Emma from the outset?
00:29:30.355 --> 00:29:37.945
Why go to a woman, whoever she is, and ask her to marry him and tell her to pray about it without talking to Emma?
00:29:39.009 --> 00:29:40.090
It just doesn't make sense.
00:29:40.131 --> 00:29:41.212
Where's the honesty in that?
00:29:41.512 --> 00:29:46.460
To me, that's the act of behavior of a very dishonest person that's trying to conceal.
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:48.122
It's trying to hide.
00:29:48.982 --> 00:29:51.145
Where's the transparency and accountability?
00:29:51.605 --> 00:30:00.057
Where's the principles in that lesson, 31, on honesty, which is a great, great lesson, by the way?
00:30:00.917 --> 00:30:07.066
And then it goes on to say, and you talked about this, you read this, this commandment was also hard for Joseph's first wife, Emma.
00:30:07.554 --> 00:30:11.439
Sometimes Emma helped Joseph decide who he should marry, asked to marry him.
00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:15.022
Other times Emma did not want Joseph to marry the women.
00:30:15.503 --> 00:30:19.348
So your knowledge of this history is better than mine.
00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:26.897
Again, getting specifics here, who did Emma help Joseph decide to marry?
00:30:26.917 --> 00:30:30.001
Yeah, that was the Partridge sisters.
00:30:31.041 --> 00:30:35.326
Okay, so the Partridge sisters were essentially Joseph's foster children.
00:30:35.587 --> 00:30:38.892
They've been described that way, although I don't know that that's entirely accurate.
00:30:40.834 --> 00:30:46.240
I don't know if their parents were dead or what it was, but they were living in the Smith household.
00:30:47.323 --> 00:30:57.715
And the Smiths, but they were also sort of, just like Fanny Alger, they were also sort of servants to some degree.
00:30:58.155 --> 00:30:58.876
I mean, they...
00:30:59.682 --> 00:31:01.163
helped take care of the house.
00:31:01.243 --> 00:31:01.984
They helped Emma.
00:31:02.826 --> 00:31:04.807
So Emma had a relationship with them.
00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:10.915
And so the way I've always envisioned it is, okay, well, fine.
00:31:10.955 --> 00:31:15.000
If you have to marry somebody, you can marry the Partridge sisters.
00:31:15.040 --> 00:31:15.721
I know them.
00:31:15.741 --> 00:31:16.502
I like them.
00:31:16.542 --> 00:31:18.625
They already live in our house.
00:31:19.446 --> 00:31:24.753
I mean, I think that was a huge concession on Emma's part.
00:31:24.834 --> 00:31:31.601
I mean, if I went to my wife and said, you know, pick who my next wife is going to be.
00:31:31.741 --> 00:31:36.107
We don't have anybody living in the house, but I can't imagine her saying, well, I like so-and-so.
00:31:36.127 --> 00:31:37.611
I wouldn't mind if she were around.
00:31:38.811 --> 00:31:40.935
So that's who I think that's a reference to.
00:31:41.236 --> 00:31:48.346
I don't know of any other specific marriage that Emma would have approved.
00:31:48.547 --> 00:31:58.241
I think there's some evidence that she knew of some of the others, but there's a great deal of evidence that she didn't know about the vast majority of them.
00:31:58.913 --> 00:32:10.747
And when you talk about honesty, if you read the Gospel Topics essays on polygamy, they talk about the idea that many of these marriages happened.
00:32:10.846 --> 00:32:11.989
I think that's the word they use.
00:32:12.048 --> 00:32:16.252
Without Emma's knowledge, many is understating it.
00:32:17.275 --> 00:32:17.714
Yeah.
00:32:17.815 --> 00:32:18.476
Overwhelming.
00:32:18.596 --> 00:32:20.637
I mean, Joseph married nearly 40 women.
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:26.505
And Emma may have known about the number Emma knew about was in the single digits.
00:32:27.405 --> 00:32:27.486
Yeah.
00:32:27.650 --> 00:32:30.834
So you've said this is a good move on the church.
00:32:30.953 --> 00:32:38.262
And again, I said generally that's, again, very broadly, that's probably strategically it's a good move.
00:32:38.462 --> 00:32:41.006
And generally it's good that they're talking about this.
00:32:41.487 --> 00:32:47.034
But it's clear Joseph Smith lied about his relationships to Emma.
00:32:47.433 --> 00:32:48.075
He lied.
00:32:48.115 --> 00:32:50.178
He didn't tell her.
00:32:50.458 --> 00:32:51.219
He didn't involve her.
00:32:51.558 --> 00:32:53.442
He didn't involve her right from the outset.
00:32:53.882 --> 00:32:56.085
He did things behind her back, Jim.
00:32:56.404 --> 00:32:56.705
Agreed?
00:32:57.281 --> 00:32:57.823
Agreed.
00:32:58.683 --> 00:32:58.864
Well,
00:32:59.744 --> 00:33:24.657
the reason I say it's a good thing, and I want to qualify this, because polygamy, I think, other than perhaps race and the priesthood, polygamy is the biggest obstacle for people who join the church and for people who discover it who are in the church to be able to reconcile it with the idea that Joseph was a prophet.
00:33:25.442 --> 00:33:45.866
and that this is in fact God's church, because there really is no way to look at the historical record and conclude that Joseph entirely conducted himself honorably in this, which is what essentially apologists try to do.
00:33:45.886 --> 00:33:53.977
Or you have the Michelle Brady Stone approach, which is, no, Joseph didn't practice polygamy.
00:33:54.594 --> 00:33:57.017
It was entirely an invention of Brigham Young.
00:33:58.018 --> 00:34:03.865
And for some people that solves it.
00:34:04.445 --> 00:34:21.186
For me, I think that makes it far worse because that means that Brigham Young completely and fraudulently, Brigham Young's lies, Joseph lied to Emma, Brigham Young in that scenario would have lied to the entire church.
00:34:21.922 --> 00:34:28.628
and would have lied to all of the apostles and said, okay, yeah, Joseph invented this, even though I'm inventing this.
00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:34.936
I don't think people who believe that should be kicked out of the church.
00:34:35.097 --> 00:34:40.762
I mean, that's the conversation that Michelle Brady Stone and I had on her podcast that got a little bit heated.
00:34:41.704 --> 00:34:48.592
But I also don't see, in my mind, how anyone would be able to reconcile that.
00:34:49.231 --> 00:34:50.313
If I believe that...
00:34:51.233 --> 00:34:54.938
I don't know how I would be able to stay in the church.
00:34:55.778 --> 00:35:12.818
So yeah, you have to confront the reality that for all of Joseph Smith's accomplishments, all of Joseph Smith's clear inspiration, which I think evidence for is plentiful.
00:35:12.918 --> 00:35:18.646
I think the Book of Mormon is plentiful evidence that Joseph had contact with the divine.
00:35:19.297 --> 00:35:23.922
and that was an instrument in God's hands to bring about all kinds of wonderful stuff.
00:35:25.224 --> 00:35:30.889
For all of the good of Joseph Smith, you also have a Joseph Smith who lied to his wife.
00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:35.413
And you also have a Joseph Smith that handled polygamy.
00:35:35.474 --> 00:35:44.402
I mean, the way this article tries to massage, I mean, the Joseph's approach to women that he would marry.
00:35:44.422 --> 00:35:48.226
It says, okay, he'd ask them to pray about it.
00:35:49.186 --> 00:35:50.268
Well, yeah, he would.
00:35:50.307 --> 00:35:56.757
But the power differential in all of those conversations was enormous.
00:35:58.059 --> 00:36:02.043
And it was, here I have a prophet of God telling me I need to marry him.
00:36:02.385 --> 00:36:11.898
And he would, the critics, I think, very often go too far because they say, oh, he would say, okay, if you don't marry me, an angel's going to cut off my head.
00:36:11.938 --> 00:36:14.242
And that's really not what he did.
00:36:15.074 --> 00:36:24.927
But he did say things like, if I don't enter into plural marriage, not if I don't marry you specifically, but if I don't enter into plural marriage, there's an angel that's going to cut off my head.
00:36:24.947 --> 00:36:47.648
I mean, he would, the amount of pressure that he applied either intentionally or unintentionally, and I think it's the unintentional pressure, just the fact of Joseph, of a prophet of God walking into you, That's an interesting choice of words.
00:36:48.009 --> 00:36:54.536
Prophet God walking in to talk to you and say, hey, God wants you to marry me.
00:36:56.579 --> 00:37:11.277
Even if he does that in the most, and please, please, you know, go ask yourself, even if he does that in the most gracious and unpressured way possible, which I think he did in several of these circumstances, not all of them.
00:37:12.358 --> 00:37:14.521
I think in others he applied more pressure than that.
00:37:15.233 --> 00:37:28.009
But even if that's all he does, the amount of power this man has and the amount of pressure the woman would feel is just enormous.
00:37:28.130 --> 00:37:29.351
It's just overwhelming.
00:37:29.530 --> 00:37:34.938
And it's impossible to look at that and not be troubled by it, I think.
00:37:35.938 --> 00:37:39.563
Intellectually, honestly, to look at that and say, well, there's really nothing wrong with that.
00:37:39.623 --> 00:37:41.244
And really God's hand is in all of this.
00:37:42.407 --> 00:37:59.253
I think the only way you can land in a way that preserves your faith is to accept, again, and this is the overwhelming theme of everything that I've ever said on this podcast, but you have to accept the reality of prophetic fallibility.
00:37:59.934 --> 00:38:10.974
You have to accept that, okay, there may have been some sort of divine core to what Joseph was doing, but he did it very badly, that he botched it.
00:38:11.809 --> 00:38:18.998
that he did not implement polygamy in a way that kept faith with Emma, that was honest to the world.
00:38:19.038 --> 00:38:31.733
I do think a lot of the criticism about polygamy, it's easy to overstate it, but that's only because at its core, it's so troubling.
00:38:32.273 --> 00:38:36.318
It's so troubling to have a man like this marrying multiple women.
00:38:37.018 --> 00:38:45.034
Now, and I'm aware and I have made a lot of the apologetic arguments for this, and some of them, I think, do hold water.
00:38:45.114 --> 00:39:11.588
For instance, I think the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph Smith was a believer, that he believed in his own revelations, that by the time polygamy was implemented, that whatever experiences he was having with the divine, they had convinced him that he was a prophet and that this was a religious principle.
00:39:11.628 --> 00:39:19.936
Even if you read Fawn Brody, for instance, No Man Knows My History, which was the definitive biography of Joseph Smith up until Richard Bushman wrote Rough Stone Rolling.
00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:26.563
She introduces what Dan Vogel has come to call the pious fraud model.
00:39:27.324 --> 00:39:39.650
That is that Joseph Smith began as a fraud and fraudulently wrote the Book of Mormon, but at some point, sort of was transformed, at least in his own mind, into a prophet.
00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:42.913
That at some point he started to believe, yes, he is a prophet.
00:39:43.614 --> 00:39:50.760
Now, the difficulty with that model is that you don't have any sort of historical document where that took place.
00:39:51.501 --> 00:39:55.786
You don't even have historical documents that show that kind of an evolution.
00:39:56.927 --> 00:40:06.893
We don't have any historical documents where Joseph isn't completely and totally sincere about in his announcements, even in his private writings.
00:40:07.695 --> 00:40:13.362
Joseph clearly, if he was a fraud, he had convinced himself.
00:40:13.521 --> 00:40:14.682
He had defrauded himself.
00:40:15.824 --> 00:40:20.030
And so I begin with the idea that Joseph Smith is a believer.
00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:26.777
And so Joseph Smith goes forward with plural marriage, believing it is a religious principle.
00:40:27.489 --> 00:40:38.181
If plural marriage were solely an excuse for Joseph Smith to bed as many women as he could, it was a really poor mechanism for doing that.
00:40:38.842 --> 00:40:45.329
The guy who did that really well was a guy I am not related to, but I share his last name, John C.
00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:53.557
Bennett, who was a member of the first presidency who went about convincing women that they were his spiritual wives.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.922
And so they could have sex.
00:40:57.570 --> 00:41:02.538
and they didn't have to tell their mortal wives because spiritually they were married.
00:41:03.619 --> 00:41:06.724
This was a different thing than from what Joseph Smith was doing.
00:41:06.864 --> 00:41:17.059
And I think Joseph Smith justified a lot of his public statements against polygamy by framing them as condemnations of John C.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:19.083
Bennett's spiritual wifery.
00:41:20.085 --> 00:41:31.065
And so he would get people who were married to him, who were entered into plural marriage, to sign affidavits saying spiritual wifery is an abomination.
00:41:32.047 --> 00:41:36.773
And historians now look at that or just lay members look at that and go, he was lying.
00:41:36.813 --> 00:41:44.925
And I say, well, it's not quite that simple because in his mind, he was condemning a practice that was different from what he was doing.
00:41:45.887 --> 00:41:53.257
But those distinctions are lost on most people who look at plural marriage and say, really, what's the difference?
00:41:54.081 --> 00:42:03.231
And part of the difference, too, is that, yes, Joseph was married to, the estimates vary, they always say up to 40 wives.
00:42:04.112 --> 00:42:05.514
He was married to that many women.
00:42:06.275 --> 00:42:14.105
Most of these women, the vast majority of these women, got a marriage ceremony and little else, and nothing else, really.
00:42:15.405 --> 00:42:22.134
Joseph did have sexual relations with his plural wives, but only a handful of them.
00:42:22.306 --> 00:42:23.688
not 40 women.
00:42:23.867 --> 00:42:27.673
He was not, uh, in doing what John C.
00:42:27.715 --> 00:42:34.525
Bennett was doing, which is just trying to find any woman he could and using some spiritual pretext to convince them to go to bed with him.
00:42:35.447 --> 00:42:54.478
Uh, so I look at that and I, I look at plural marriage and I, the, the grace I can give to plural marriage is grace that comes from the idea that, um, I try to put myself in the mind of the people who were asked to practice this principle.
00:42:54.498 --> 00:42:57.463
And for many of them, it was hard.
00:42:57.583 --> 00:42:58.505
It was difficult.
00:42:59.588 --> 00:43:06.398
And it was difficult for the women more than the men, obviously, on an exponential scale.
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:13.389
But the family dynamic of plural marriage, in some ways...
00:43:13.793 --> 00:43:17.199
was, well, no, I don't want to sugarcoat this.
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:18.942
I don't want to soft coat it.
00:43:18.961 --> 00:43:20.585
It was a huge burden on women.
00:43:20.605 --> 00:43:24.070
It was hugely anti-feminist in most ways.
00:43:24.811 --> 00:43:27.617
And I don't want to say anything that would undermine that idea.
00:43:28.597 --> 00:43:34.628
Where it was difficult for men was in the idea that they were strangers in their own homes.
00:43:35.849 --> 00:43:43.231
And if you look at plural marriage as it was practiced after Nauvoo, because Richard Bushman makes the distinction.
00:43:43.291 --> 00:43:48.536
He says, Joseph Smith did not practice domestic polygamy the same way Brigham Young did.
00:43:48.617 --> 00:43:50.579
He practiced sealing polygamy.
00:43:51.340 --> 00:44:03.851
He had all these wives sealed to him and felt no obligation to take care of them, no obligation to even acknowledge them after the sealing, except for the handful with whom he had sexual relations.
00:44:05.452 --> 00:44:20.893
Whereas domestic polygamy, as it was practiced in the Utah Territory, in the Deseret territory, involved men going and visiting the households in which their plural wives and children lived.
00:44:21.855 --> 00:44:29.467
And if they had more than one or two wives, they were essentially visitors in these households.
00:44:29.527 --> 00:44:34.914
They would go and visit them, and they didn't run the show, and they didn't know their children very well.
00:44:34.934 --> 00:44:36.336
I mean, Brigham Young...
00:44:36.961 --> 00:44:41.766
There's a story of Brigham Young meeting somebody on the street and him asking, who's your father?
00:44:41.847 --> 00:44:43.068
And they said, you are.
00:44:44.269 --> 00:44:51.036
I mean, he had close to 60 children and all these households, and he didn't know any of them.
00:44:51.398 --> 00:45:00.367
I mean, he knew a handful of them that were close to him, but polygamy, the dynamic of polygamy was just a mess from beginning to end.
00:45:00.407 --> 00:45:13.038
It didn't allow a certain amount of latitude to For the Relief Society, I just finished reading a book called American Zion by Dr.
00:45:13.077 --> 00:45:13.619
Benjamin Park.
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:15.422
It's a brilliant history of the church.
00:45:16.284 --> 00:45:19.230
I think the best concise history of the church I've ever read.
00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:29.449
And it pointed out, it's something that I didn't realize, that up until really the early 20th century, the Relief Society was almost entirely autonomous.
00:45:30.081 --> 00:45:32.806
The Relief Society did not report to the first presidency.
00:45:32.846 --> 00:45:39.034
The Relief Society chose its own officers, had its own meetings, had its own agenda.
00:45:39.054 --> 00:45:39.956
And it wasn't until J.
00:45:39.996 --> 00:45:45.284
Reuben Clark in 1938 said the Relief Society needs to be a handmaid of the priesthood.
00:45:45.826 --> 00:45:46.987
Those were his exact words.
00:45:47.949 --> 00:45:52.135
That we get the Relief Society as it is now, which is really it is.
00:45:52.155 --> 00:45:53.496
It's a handmaid of the priesthood.
00:45:53.556 --> 00:45:55.519
The priesthood chooses the org.
00:45:56.101 --> 00:45:59.385
I mean, the Relief Society does not function with any degree of autonomy.
00:45:59.746 --> 00:46:01.047
compared to the way they did before.
00:46:01.969 --> 00:46:23.853
And plural marriage largely made that possible because women were able to sort of share householding with other women and so had more freedom to take on more leadership roles in these sort of plural arrangements.
00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:27.514
And the presidents of the Relief Society, Emmeline B.
00:46:27.534 --> 00:46:30.159
Wells, for instance, is probably the most famous one.
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:32.663
She was married to the plural wife of Daniel H.
00:46:32.682 --> 00:46:32.983
Wells.
00:46:34.005 --> 00:46:39.695
And she was a woman of considerable influence and power in the Utah Territory.
00:46:40.376 --> 00:46:44.922
And plural marriage gave her a little more autonomy to be able to do that.
00:46:46.306 --> 00:46:49.911
So the dynamics of polygamy are messy.
00:46:50.492 --> 00:46:51.293
They're difficult.
00:46:51.842 --> 00:47:14.956
And there's no way to reconcile it unless you can allow for the possibility that the Joseph Smith who lied to his wife, the Joseph Smith that entered into this messy, difficult practice whose legacy continues to haunt us today, is also the Joseph Smith that was chosen by the Lord to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:47:15.818 --> 00:47:19.563
And if you can't do that, then you end up having to leave the church.
00:47:19.824 --> 00:47:20.606
And a lot of people do.
00:47:21.474 --> 00:47:26.059
I have made that sort of reconciliation in my own mind.
00:47:28.141 --> 00:47:29.945
Does that hold any water with you?
00:47:29.965 --> 00:47:35.311
I mean, am I copping out by making that reconciliation?
00:47:35.351 --> 00:47:43.342
That's a question obviously for you.
00:47:44.063 --> 00:47:49.710
It's hard to, you know, you understand your thoughts and feelings about polygamy.
00:47:50.242 --> 00:47:52.403
You've reconciled it to an extent.
00:47:52.483 --> 00:47:54.106
You've acknowledged that, Joseph Smith.
00:47:54.385 --> 00:47:55.047
I mean, the two questions.
00:47:55.067 --> 00:47:55.688
Well, listen to you.
00:47:55.708 --> 00:47:56.648
I've got two questions for you.
00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:08.402
Is it true that Joseph put pressure on some women to marry him or have a relationship with him in return for extending blessings to that woman's parents?
00:48:08.442 --> 00:48:09.682
Because I've read that somewhere.
00:48:09.762 --> 00:48:10.063
Yes.
00:48:11.844 --> 00:48:12.746
Is that true?
00:48:13.206 --> 00:48:13.507
Yes.
00:48:14.688 --> 00:48:15.889
That, well...
00:48:16.353 --> 00:48:21.119
That is essentially the, not Fanny Alger, the Helen Mark Kimball story.
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:21.880
Right.
00:48:22.001 --> 00:48:22.902
I thought so.
00:48:22.942 --> 00:48:36.438
It was criticized for brides, and it was actually Heber Kimball, Helen's father, who proposed the idea as a sort of dynastic ceiling.
00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:41.164
I think the evidence is fairly strong that this was not a sexual relationship.
00:48:41.985 --> 00:48:51.210
This was a dynastic ceiling that was going to give Heber Kimball and his family great blessings by being sealed to the prophet.
00:48:51.369 --> 00:49:14.143
And in fact, for generations, even after Joseph's death, the model was women were sealed to Joseph, to Brigham, even after Brigham's death, up until the manifesto, that the sealing to prophets, the law of adoption, as it was called, would give you great blessings in the afterlife.
00:49:14.184 --> 00:49:15.525
So yes, that is absolutely true.
00:49:16.193 --> 00:49:17.514
Yeah,
00:49:17.615 --> 00:49:49.101
I heard and I've read that he did put pressure on some women to have a physical relationship or some kind of spiritual marriage sealing slash physical relationship in return for extending or promising blessings to the woman's parents and also referencing or saying that there will be potential penalties or that the woman's parents or relatives could be at risk if she doesn't accept.
00:49:50.844 --> 00:49:57.452
The second question I've got, is it true that Joe Smith denied practicing polygamy at any time, publicly?
00:49:58.172 --> 00:50:02.699
Again, this is the way Richard Bushman describes it.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:04.141
I mean, the answer is yes.
00:50:04.961 --> 00:50:14.434
The way Richard Bushman describes it is they are carefully worded denials, which doesn't necessarily excuse anything.
00:50:15.266 --> 00:50:21.753
What it does is demonstrate, I think, that in Joseph's mind, he was justifying himself.
00:50:22.894 --> 00:50:34.289
I mean, if Joseph's purpose and intent with polygamy, again, was entirely sexual adventurism, there would be no need for carefully worded denials.
00:50:34.429 --> 00:50:37.253
There would just be the, no, I'm not doing this, forget it.
00:50:37.813 --> 00:50:38.813
I mean, you read them.
00:50:38.994 --> 00:50:45.498
He says things like, what a thing to be accused of I was having seven legal wives and I can only find one.
00:50:46.099 --> 00:50:46.940
Yes, I remember that
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:47.280
quote.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:51.907
Well, that's kind of true in that Emma is his only legal wife.
00:50:53.369 --> 00:50:56.532
And it's not even a denial that you have seven wives.
00:50:56.632 --> 00:50:57.733
It's just saying what a thing.
00:50:57.853 --> 00:51:09.869
I mean, this is the thing is that Joseph tried very hard to just, you can see, I think, the sort of mental gymnastics Joseph himself was doing.
00:51:10.753 --> 00:51:12.715
to try to justify it in his own mind.
00:51:13.858 --> 00:51:22.768
So he did not overtly, flatly deny polygamy so much as try to change the subject, try to pin it on John C.
00:51:22.809 --> 00:51:29.277
Bennett's spiritual wifery, which he insisted was not the same thing as plural marriage.
00:51:30.418 --> 00:51:33.242
But, I mean, the short answer to your question is yes, absolutely.
00:51:33.902 --> 00:51:39.050
The longer answer, I think, at least allows me to give Joseph a bit more grace.
00:51:39.777 --> 00:52:25.351
And my third question is, if we look at, you know, by all accounts, all reliable accounts, based on what we know, what the church has said, what it hasn't said, other reliable sources, Richard Bushman, the other materials that are out there on the church, including the website, is it safe and honest and reliable for us to surmise that, again, by the standards of the church, the definition of honesty and the logic behind that, that the church teaches very clearly, is it accurate, reliable to say that Joseph Smith actually lied about practicing polygamy and the relationships he had behind his wife's back?
00:52:27.594 --> 00:52:45.952
Yes, and it's also, I think, safe to say, to go even much further beyond that, to say that the church institutionally since the time of Joseph Smith, has not been honest about polygamy.
00:52:48.096 --> 00:52:53.503
Yeah, and again, I'm applying the same standards in Lesson 31, right?
00:52:54.545 --> 00:53:06.782
If we're going to use that lesson as it's intended, I think, partly to criticize the world and dishonesty out in the world, which is fair criticism, sure.
00:53:07.425 --> 00:53:11.291
we should apply that same standard and those same definitions to us.
00:53:11.711 --> 00:53:11.893
Yes?
00:53:12.954 --> 00:53:13.375
To the other.
00:53:13.795 --> 00:53:17.460
I mean, the only true church upon the face of the earth, right?
00:53:18.121 --> 00:53:22.367
We've talked about the role of the Holy Ghost briefly, you know, in teaching truth.
00:53:23.148 --> 00:53:29.378
Joseph Smith, it's clear, again, that he lied about polygamy.
00:53:29.557 --> 00:53:30.840
It was a complete mess.
00:53:32.563 --> 00:53:33.364
I agree with you.
00:53:33.483 --> 00:53:37.894
I think he set out maybe he didn't say this.
00:53:37.956 --> 00:53:43.204
I think he set out to create something, a movement, a religion.
00:53:43.224 --> 00:53:48.313
He had questions about himself, repentance.
00:53:48.713 --> 00:53:51.657
There's all this religious activity going on.
00:53:51.697 --> 00:53:53.460
He had his own spiritual experience.
00:53:53.561 --> 00:53:54.222
I believe that.
00:53:54.262 --> 00:53:59.050
I believe he prayed in a grove of trees.
00:53:59.110 --> 00:54:02.836
He had a, in his mind, a profound spiritual experience.
00:54:03.117 --> 00:54:12.744
Some vision in his mind, whether Christ or Heavenly Father appeared to him in person is, in my mind, up for question.
00:54:12.784 --> 00:54:15.286
But he had a profound spiritual experience.
00:54:16.307 --> 00:54:36.443
He took pieces of other aspects of the religious revival at the time, etc., had his own Christian upbringing with his parents, pieces there, created this organization, this church, Well, this organization looks very different now than when it did back then, by the way, as you know, right?
00:54:37.023 --> 00:54:39.987
This is a very different organization to when Joe Smith set this up.
00:54:40.266 --> 00:54:49.438
Nevertheless, he set this up, organization, he had some objectives, probably financial, spiritual for sure, political probably as well.
00:54:49.478 --> 00:54:51.860
He had political aspirations.
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:58.047
There was the sexual desire, I think, that existed in him.
00:54:58.067 --> 00:55:01.594
I can't, I don't, I'm not where you are.
00:55:01.635 --> 00:55:08.264
I believe there were other selfish objectives that Joseph had, certainly Brigham Young had.
00:55:09.204 --> 00:55:20.579
And I think he thought that the polygamy was one way, not the only way, but one way of achieving those selfish objectives.
00:55:20.619 --> 00:55:22.681
There were other objectives with polygamy, I get that.
00:55:23.202 --> 00:55:26.527
But I think there was definitely a selfish...
00:55:28.802 --> 00:55:42.121
gratification objective that he had in those thoughts that he had of how does he achieve that and polygamy he thought helped achieve that amongst other objectives for sure.
00:55:42.842 --> 00:55:45.065
The whole thing turned out to be a disaster.
00:55:45.085 --> 00:55:52.878
I mean that question bringing up somebody who's your father and they said you is just extraordinary.
00:55:53.298 --> 00:55:57.844
I think there's two more thoughts as we kind of roll this up here.
00:55:57.864 --> 00:56:09.168
I think This decision by the church to address this in the primary material is, again, broadly positive because it brings it to light.
00:56:09.487 --> 00:56:15.653
However, it's a missed opportunity to get into some of the detail, but therein lies the problem.
00:56:16.333 --> 00:56:22.340
Once you start getting into the detail, Jim, that's where the problems arise, and that's what generates more questions.
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.286
And so this is a limited window, and the reason why I say that is that the church...
00:56:29.186 --> 00:56:35.211
can only go so far on this with this audience, with these children.
00:56:36.012 --> 00:56:40.677
Because if it goes into too much detail, it generates confusion.
00:56:40.697 --> 00:56:48.405
I mean, the kids who are in traditional conventional families, you know, mom and dad, right?
00:56:49.025 --> 00:56:52.869
Siblings, that's the traditional model.
00:56:53.791 --> 00:56:57.014
To them, they'll find this just peculiar and odd.
00:56:58.338 --> 00:57:17.722
And then the other principle is the articles of faith, which talks about in point number 12, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, and being in honoring and sustaining the law.
00:57:18.324 --> 00:57:30.865
Polygamy back then, plural marriage, having physical relationships, I don't think adultery was illegal, but having plural marriages back in the 1830s was illegal.
00:57:30.905 --> 00:57:49.284
And even more so when the authorities got more details of this, they really came down pretty hard on the church and actually forced the church, let's face it, forced the church to change its position on plural marriage, which it did.
00:57:50.264 --> 00:57:53.827
Privately, I think some, well, you've said this before, they were practicing plural marriage.
00:57:54.409 --> 00:58:04.016
Even now today, I believe the church still believes in plural marriage and actually practices plural marriage.
00:58:04.376 --> 00:58:07.521
Elder Oaks is married to Seald, the two women.
00:58:09.103 --> 00:58:14.909
And I think if the church could have its way and the law allowed it, the church would be practicing plural marriage today.
00:58:14.929 --> 00:58:26.289
Nevertheless, I think this is the best that the church can do to inoculate the children.
00:58:27.451 --> 00:58:29.273
What they've got here, it's the best.
00:58:29.474 --> 00:58:32.719
I mean, great minds will have poured over this.
00:58:33.701 --> 00:58:37.367
Every word, every sentence, every line.
00:58:37.967 --> 00:58:44.318
They'll have thought about this for two years before they put this together and put this out.
00:58:44.958 --> 00:58:46.822
And I agree with them.
00:58:46.882 --> 00:58:48.585
This is a strategic move.
00:58:49.106 --> 00:58:58.121
This is the best they can do given the complexity of and the darkness, and keeping in mind the pain and suffering, Jim, that these wives like Emma will have gone through.
00:58:58.161 --> 00:59:04.751
Let's not forget that, in my opinion, they were victims of this awful dishonesty.
00:59:05.331 --> 00:59:10.159
And we've said, I asked the question earlier, trying to ask it in a very balanced way, was George Smith honest about it?
00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:10.820
Did he lie about this?
00:59:11.601 --> 00:59:12.922
He lied about this.
00:59:13.963 --> 00:59:17.989
And it caused immense pain and suffering for these women.
00:59:19.202 --> 00:59:24.208
And we must highlight that because these lives were broken, they were damaged.
00:59:24.889 --> 00:59:36.021
Can you imagine how they felt, the tears and the heartbreak, having found out that the husband has been having these relationships and not told them?
00:59:36.523 --> 00:59:42.851
Why on earth didn't he just tell them about this revelation and say, hey, look, this is the situation.
00:59:42.990 --> 00:59:48.677
I want to involve you in the conversation and where's the respect for Emma?
00:59:50.114 --> 00:59:51.516
Zero respect.
00:59:52.458 --> 00:59:54.481
And is that the quality of a prophet?
00:59:55.722 --> 00:59:58.447
I mean, we're talking basic, but you're talking about infallibility.
00:59:58.487 --> 01:00:08.682
I'm talking about the basics of human decency, honesty with your wife, with your family members.
01:00:09.585 --> 01:00:14.052
And if you haven't got that, are you really a prophet of God?
01:00:14.092 --> 01:00:20.532
And the other thing as well, if this is an eternal principle, And God's laws are higher than men's laws.
01:00:22.074 --> 01:00:24.898
Has God acquiesced?
01:00:24.938 --> 01:00:27.019
Has he given in to man-made laws?
01:00:27.681 --> 01:00:50.501
If this is such an eternal principle in section 132, a principle that we need to practice in order to achieve the highest level of eternal life, polygamy, again, there's lots of doctrines and references on that, that we achieve that level of eternal life and be with the Heavenly Father if we except the fullness of the gospel.
01:00:50.981 --> 01:00:55.809
Presumably plural marriage is an important part of the fullness of the gospel.
01:00:56.309 --> 01:01:00.655
Why has God given in to man-made laws?
01:01:01.737 --> 01:01:04.221
Aren't God's laws higher than ours?
01:01:04.922 --> 01:01:06.885
I mean, that's another conversation.
01:01:07.286 --> 01:01:09.268
But the problem I've got with this is it's not...
01:01:11.112 --> 01:01:15.458
It's deliberately missing out important information.
01:01:15.498 --> 01:01:17.981
Then again, the church...
01:01:18.242 --> 01:01:57.507
can't get into that detail and I understand that I get that but it's not honest it's deliberately say missing really important information now the kids aren't stupid you know there's some smart kids out there the youth are smart they'll look at this they'll research it will it inoculate them some of them for sure but Just as a closing experience here, when I was set apart on a state presidency, going back a bit now, this was at the Mitt Romney.
01:01:57.567 --> 01:01:58.307
Was it 2010?
01:01:58.427 --> 01:01:59.128
I think it was.
01:02:00.710 --> 01:02:02.572
Well, Mitt Romney was the nominee in 2012.
01:02:02.592 --> 01:02:03.494
2012.
01:02:04.094 --> 01:02:04.434
Okay.
01:02:05.476 --> 01:02:23.443
So 2012, it was, I remember leaders in British Columbia, church leaders, senior leaders, area authority 70s, talking about a new initiative that Elder Oaks was behind that he introduced in our stake.
01:02:24.204 --> 01:02:26.927
He called it hastening the work.
01:02:28.228 --> 01:02:30.811
There was no question that the work is true.
01:02:31.090 --> 01:02:32.132
The cause was great.
01:02:32.753 --> 01:02:38.577
Our focus now was hastening it, advancing it, and accelerating it with the words.
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:40.519
We've got the truth.
01:02:40.820 --> 01:02:41.701
We've got the gospel.
01:02:42.362 --> 01:02:43.882
We've got this amazing organization.
01:02:43.922 --> 01:02:46.525
The foundation is there.
01:02:47.074 --> 01:02:48.076
How do we scale it?
01:02:48.536 --> 01:02:49.217
That was the message.
01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:56.989
And how do we scale it in 2012 at what they call the Mormon moment, which was the Mitt Romney component.
01:02:57.650 --> 01:03:04.981
And they talked about, and I've got it here, they talked about bringing the church out of obscurity.
01:03:05.121 --> 01:03:17.507
Another lesson that Neely Maxwell talked about where the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants He says, among other things, the past obscurity of the church is giving away to visibility.
01:03:18.248 --> 01:03:19.349
Obscurity, do you notice that?
01:03:19.409 --> 01:03:22.634
Which is generally unknown and withdrawn from the centers of activity.
01:03:23.195 --> 01:03:25.418
Hence, the obscure is often misunderstood.
01:03:25.438 --> 01:03:30.083
It's nearly Maxwell's talk titled Out of Obscurity.
01:03:30.525 --> 01:03:37.655
The Lord describes how he will bring his latter-day work, quote, forth out of obscurity and out of darkness.
01:03:38.275 --> 01:03:47.884
These were the scriptures that were shared with us as a new presidency in when Mitt Romney was running for the US presidency, it was the Marvin moment.
01:03:48.625 --> 01:03:50.547
We were accelerating and advancing the work.
01:03:51.208 --> 01:03:53.231
We were, quote, hastening the work.
01:03:53.871 --> 01:03:55.333
Elder Oaks was behind it.
01:03:55.373 --> 01:03:58.958
The internet was a tool to be able to advance the work.
01:03:59.659 --> 01:04:09.614
And now I think all this out of obscurity has not entirely backfired, but they've got...
01:04:10.402 --> 01:04:17.349
The church has got this big problem now with all this material on the internet, the internet that has been a major problem for the church.
01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:22.394
And the youth and the primary, certainly the youth, will go online.
01:04:22.795 --> 01:04:23.657
They will research it.
01:04:23.737 --> 01:04:26.519
They'll come across this podcast, many, many of the podcasts.
01:04:27.061 --> 01:04:28.121
They'll dig into the details.
01:04:28.382 --> 01:04:30.043
Actually, I think I'm wrong.
01:04:30.063 --> 01:04:31.244
I think I'm wrong.
01:04:31.284 --> 01:04:33.086
They probably won't do that.
01:04:33.768 --> 01:04:35.028
They're probably not going to do that.
01:04:35.048 --> 01:04:39.074
It's going to your point about whether they want religion in their life or not.
01:04:40.226 --> 01:04:50.882
But if they do research this and investigate this, and some will, they will find the dark side, if you like, of polygamy.
01:04:50.922 --> 01:04:59.916
And there is a deep, dark underbelly of polygamy that destroyed many lives and disrupted many lives.
01:05:00.597 --> 01:05:05.304
And the discerning youth, if you like, will discover this.
01:05:06.065 --> 01:05:09.309
And they will see that this material exists.
01:05:09.697 --> 01:05:10.199
Missed it.
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:14.184
Because this material will be evidence also.
01:05:14.786 --> 01:05:18.130
Yes, evidence that the church has tried to address it.
01:05:18.692 --> 01:05:31.132
You know, if we fast forward now 20 years, and this is still around on the internet, this children material, we'll see the church will use that and say, hey, we talked about this 20 years ago.
01:05:31.172 --> 01:05:31.632
It's not new.
01:05:31.672 --> 01:05:33.675
This is old stuff.
01:05:34.115 --> 01:05:37.601
But on the other side, you can argue, well, let's look at it.
01:05:38.338 --> 01:05:41.780
They will have the same conversation that you and I are having right now.
01:05:42.862 --> 01:05:45.565
They say, well, you missed this, and you missed that, and you missed that.
01:05:45.585 --> 01:06:18.737
And there's probably other stuff 20 years from now that will come to light that we don't know about right now in regards to polygamy, which is a big issue, a constant, big, major, major problem that has never disappeared, ever-present, and always been one of the major issues impacting people the ability of the church to advance and accelerate and scale this tiny, tiny church, the only true church in the tiny, tiny church in the context of the global population.
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:20.900
Right?
01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:24.103
So, yes, broadly, it's a good move.
01:06:24.264 --> 01:06:26.786
To summarize my thoughts here, a good move.
01:06:28.208 --> 01:06:36.617
Yes, it brings the big, one of the big issues, raising the priesthood of the one, you know, there's other big ones, but this is probably the biggest one of them for sure.
01:06:37.057 --> 01:06:40.903
It brings it to the surface here in front of the children.
01:06:41.744 --> 01:06:44.047
It is designed to inoculate the kids.
01:06:44.909 --> 01:06:55.525
I think it will be used against the church like we're doing right now in criticizing the church for not being completely open and honest about the details behind this.
01:06:56.365 --> 01:07:04.338
And I think the church, Jim, will continue to struggle and wrestle with polygamy for decades.
01:07:05.121 --> 01:07:07.505
It's going to be a problem for decades.
01:07:08.505 --> 01:07:09.827
People will not accept it.
01:07:10.148 --> 01:07:26.184
And I think the church has to, at some point, and I'll finish on this, accept that, like racing the priesthood, prohibiting black people from having temple blessings and having the priesthood, that it was a downright mistake.
01:07:27.447 --> 01:07:30.670
Now, the church is not ready to say that, as blunt as that.
01:07:31.090 --> 01:07:44.460
But I predict, if I can put my prophet hat on here, I think in the next five to 10 years, I think the church will come out in some way and say, polygamy was a mistake.
01:07:45.581 --> 01:07:48.045
And somehow, some way, it will disavow it.
01:07:49.065 --> 01:07:57.257
It's disavowed, in the Race and the Priesthood essay, disavowed any behavior of individuals who were racist in the church.
01:07:57.737 --> 01:07:58.920
Don't make specific references.
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:16.587
Where I believe there'll be further material coming out to disavow the church from this awful practice of polygamy that destroyed so many lives and impacted so many.
01:08:17.368 --> 01:08:19.210
So yeah, they're my thoughts.
01:08:19.671 --> 01:08:21.873
Any concluding thoughts from your end?
01:08:23.957 --> 01:08:26.359
Yeah, I appreciate your concluding thoughts.
01:08:27.041 --> 01:08:33.689
I don't share the, what's the word I'm looking for?
01:08:35.010 --> 01:08:36.752
Well, let me just back up.
01:08:38.614 --> 01:08:50.390
There is no question that polygamy looms large in the public imagination, and it continues to haunt the church to this day.
01:08:50.449 --> 01:08:51.832
And you are correct.
01:08:51.992 --> 01:08:55.957
To some degree, it is still practiced in the church to this day.
01:08:56.918 --> 01:09:45.103
Carolyn Pearson wrote a beautiful, heartbreaking book about a few years back called The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, where she talks about the fact that it's a mistake to think of polygamy as a historical mistake, that we need to think of polygamy as a current and enduring mistake, because women in the church are haunted by the idea that if they were to die as President Nelson and President Oaks' wives died, first wives died, that their husbands will be free to be sealed to another woman and that they will be expected to share their husband with that woman in the next life.
01:09:47.627 --> 01:09:52.898
My uncle, his wife died.
01:09:52.917 --> 01:09:55.002
He remarried one of her best friends.
01:09:55.713 --> 01:10:01.739
And the conversation was all about, oh, it'll be great because Aunt Theda will love Betty.
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.422
And they were already friends, so this won't be a problem.
01:10:05.182 --> 01:10:11.509
Betty ended up dying, and my Uncle Wally ended up marrying a third woman who was already sealed to somebody else.
01:10:12.449 --> 01:10:15.814
And he tried to get sealed to her after she died.
01:10:15.854 --> 01:10:20.297
And the church told him no, because she was already sealed to her first husband.
01:10:20.377 --> 01:10:22.940
So, you know, this is still with us.
01:10:23.081 --> 01:10:24.162
This is not...
01:10:24.801 --> 01:10:26.884
Just a historical relic.
01:10:29.327 --> 01:10:37.695
I want to return, however, to where we began, which is with this article and my statement that this article is a good thing.
01:10:39.018 --> 01:10:45.945
Because for all of the flaws in it, I mean, you pointed out where it hasn't been entirely honest.
01:10:46.086 --> 01:10:50.970
I pointed out where it hasn't been entirely honest, where it's leaving out really important information.
01:10:51.811 --> 01:10:53.253
For all of its weaknesses...
01:10:54.177 --> 01:11:09.100
for all of the problems that we have wrestling with, confronting the legacy of this practice, this is the church moving in the right direction.
01:11:10.101 --> 01:11:25.877
This is the church moving towards the kind of honesty, the kind of transparency that we demand from it, and that the church has taught us needs to be a part of our own individual lives.
01:11:26.738 --> 01:11:35.350
The church of my childhood would not have even dreamed of anything like this.
01:11:36.693 --> 01:11:49.649
And the church even of my young adulthood was excommunicating in the September 6th in 1994, excommunicating D.
01:11:49.710 --> 01:11:55.139
Michael Quinn for pointing out that the church continued to practice polygamy after the manifesto.
01:11:55.259 --> 01:12:00.086
It's not that Michael Quinn did anything that was contrary to the principles of the church.
01:12:00.185 --> 01:12:11.061
It was that Michael Quinn told the truth and the church, particularly Elder Packer, wasn't having it and just did not want the truth to be out there.
01:12:11.342 --> 01:12:19.399
And so the church of 1994 was a church that would have said, We just don't talk about this.
01:12:19.479 --> 01:12:20.761
This just didn't happen.
01:12:21.162 --> 01:12:22.805
We're just not going to acknowledge it.
01:12:23.466 --> 01:12:36.864
The Church of 2024 or 2025, we were recording this in the new year, and this is going to be introduced to children in this year.
01:12:36.904 --> 01:12:55.050
The Church of 2025 has come far enough that not only are we willing to acknowledge the reality of polygamy, in the Gospel Topics Essays and in the Joseph Smith Papers Project, where all of the documents about polygamy are being made public.
01:12:55.610 --> 01:13:12.177
I mean, the church has done so many good things in terms of moving towards transparency that they're now even willing to acknowledge this with our youngest and most vulnerable members.
01:13:12.297 --> 01:13:14.561
Now, have they done a good job in that?
01:13:14.702 --> 01:13:16.885
I mean, I think it's a half measure.
01:13:16.904 --> 01:13:25.877
I think there's actually part, this tells more than I thought the church would, but doesn't tell nearly enough to be able to say it's fully honest.
01:13:26.838 --> 01:13:29.502
So yeah, we can talk about that.
01:13:29.542 --> 01:13:42.596
I want to embrace and applaud the church's efforts To move towards the transparency that it has no choice but to provide, I think.
01:13:42.877 --> 01:13:45.042
I mean, I think there are still leaders in the church.
01:13:45.882 --> 01:13:56.746
I believe there are really—the fact that this exists, that this thing exists, it's, I believe, the product of a great deal of behind-the-scenes tension, I am sure.
01:13:57.314 --> 01:13:59.716
that there were brethren who said, you can't do this.
01:13:59.837 --> 01:14:00.717
We can't do this.
01:14:01.099 --> 01:14:03.041
You can't put this in the primary manual.
01:14:03.481 --> 01:14:07.947
And there were other brethren who said, not only can we do this, we should go further than this.
01:14:08.648 --> 01:14:11.992
And then what eventually ended up was some kind of a compromise.
01:14:13.554 --> 01:14:23.626
But there are still leaders in the church who think we have a choice, who think we can still sort of sweep polygamy under the rug.
01:14:23.966 --> 01:14:26.189
We can still sort of pretend it doesn't exist.
01:14:27.073 --> 01:14:37.666
And they're the ones, I think, that are in the way of the kind of transparency and honesty and accountability that the church needs to take for plural marriage.
01:14:38.587 --> 01:14:45.594
If there is a good side to plural marriage, and I think that argument can be made that there is a good side to it.
01:14:46.114 --> 01:15:05.597
I mean, I think the autonomy of the Relief Society in the early 20th century, in the late 19th century, I mean, I think that there are stories that can be told that can make plural marriage less of the absolute disaster it appears to be to most people who look at it.
01:15:06.538 --> 01:15:11.164
But you can't tell those stories unless you tell all the stories.
01:15:11.765 --> 01:15:26.045
You can't make an argument that polygamy wasn't that bad if you don't address the arguments that it was, if you don't address the realities and the heartbreak, if you don't address...
01:15:26.626 --> 01:15:39.945
The dynamic between Joseph and Emma that split the church and that created the community of Christ, which for a century or so refused to acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:15:41.387 --> 01:15:50.782
Until you address all of the truth, you cannot highlight the truth that makes the church look good.
01:15:51.681 --> 01:15:58.529
And so the church is in a position where really it has no choice but to address polygamy.
01:15:59.291 --> 01:16:11.125
And this is its first sort of, not first, but first with children, one of the first sort of halting efforts to do that, to be transparent.
01:16:11.865 --> 01:16:14.069
And it's not entirely successful.
01:16:14.208 --> 01:16:17.632
I don't think the Gospel Topics essays were entirely successful.
01:16:18.134 --> 01:16:21.157
I think they were half measures, and half measures never satisfy anybody.
01:16:21.793 --> 01:16:23.855
But it's a step in the right direction.
01:16:23.895 --> 01:16:26.097
We're going the right way.
01:16:26.859 --> 01:16:34.947
If the church has a future, it's a future that has to somehow come to terms with the legacy of plural marriage.
01:16:35.408 --> 01:16:58.559
If there is a way to do that, if there is a way to reconcile all the goodness of the restored gospel with all of the messiness of plural marriage and how Joseph Smith is at the heart and the center of both of those things, If there is a way to reconcile that, we won't be able to find it until we are fully honest and we are fully transparent.
01:16:59.118 --> 01:17:08.328
And so I want to conclude this episode by applauding the church, applauding the church for taking steps in the right direction.
01:17:08.387 --> 01:17:10.210
We've got a whole lot.
01:17:10.871 --> 01:17:13.292
I mean, I say you to the church, but I'm in the church.
01:17:13.573 --> 01:17:14.354
This is my church.
01:17:14.694 --> 01:17:18.137
We as a church have a long way to go.
01:17:18.753 --> 01:17:20.617
We have a whole lot more we have to do.
01:17:21.417 --> 01:17:25.585
But when we go in the right direction, I think that should be applauded.
01:17:26.125 --> 01:17:35.319
And hopefully that will encourage the church to continue to move in that direction and get to where we need to be.
01:17:36.502 --> 01:17:37.863
So those are my final thoughts.
01:17:39.386 --> 01:17:40.927
Any rebuttal?
01:17:42.466 --> 01:17:43.608
No, no, Rupert.
01:17:43.627 --> 01:17:44.911
I thought it was really good.
01:17:46.153 --> 01:17:48.337
You know, we have a balanced approach on the podcast.
01:17:48.377 --> 01:17:50.260
You've got your side, I've got mine.
01:17:50.820 --> 01:17:52.423
A lot of stuff we agree, some things we don't.
01:17:52.463 --> 01:17:56.070
And I think that that yin-yang balance is just really healthy, really good.
01:17:56.391 --> 01:17:57.172
I'll say one last thing.
01:17:57.554 --> 01:17:59.877
The polygamy issue will never go away.
01:17:59.917 --> 01:18:01.461
It's part of the church history.
01:18:01.942 --> 01:18:02.502
It happened.
01:18:03.845 --> 01:18:04.627
We can't deny it.
01:18:05.347 --> 01:18:05.988
It was a mess.
01:18:06.913 --> 01:18:09.497
I don't know anything good came from it.
01:18:09.618 --> 01:18:10.338
I can't think of that.
01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:14.243
We won't get into that right now, but it will never go away.
01:18:14.283 --> 01:18:17.868
And somehow the church has to come to terms with it.
01:18:18.470 --> 01:18:19.371
Yes, I agree.
01:18:19.390 --> 01:18:20.512
It's a step in the right move.
01:18:21.293 --> 01:18:24.257
And I appreciate you highlighting that.
01:18:24.297 --> 01:18:27.141
That's an important point, I think, to finish on.
01:18:27.202 --> 01:18:29.805
So that was my final, final comment.
01:18:30.529 --> 01:18:31.131
All right.
01:18:31.490 --> 01:18:34.895
Well, that concludes this episode then.
01:18:34.916 --> 01:18:40.082
I hope it doesn't conclude the church's efforts to be transparent and accountable for plural marriage.
01:18:41.203 --> 01:18:47.752
But we will be here throughout the coming new year to be able to discuss these sorts of things.
01:18:47.912 --> 01:18:52.298
And Ian, I'm very, very grateful that you are my partner in crime in this.
01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:55.863
And I can't think of anybody I would rather be discussing this with than with you.
01:18:55.904 --> 01:18:55.944
So...
01:18:58.050 --> 01:19:07.823
And I want very much our listeners to know how grateful both of us are that you are joining us in this journey and that we can have these conversations with you.
01:19:07.863 --> 01:19:15.233
And we look forward very much to talking with you next week on the next episode of Inside Out.
01:19:15.934 --> 01:19:16.935
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:19:17.756 --> 01:19:18.237
Thank you, Jim.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:23.853
Hello and Happy New Year! My name is Jim Bennett and I am joining Ian Wilkes for another year of Inside Out Podcasts.
00:00:24.675 --> 00:00:35.685
Ian concluded last year with a podcast where he was in charge, flying solo, but not solo, because James Burnham joined him for another magnificent visit.
00:00:37.588 --> 00:00:40.012
Ian, well done.
00:00:40.051 --> 00:00:44.759
What was that experience like, just you and James?
00:00:45.682 --> 00:00:46.021
Yeah.
00:00:46.482 --> 00:00:47.223
Happy New Year, Jim.
00:00:47.283 --> 00:00:50.249
Hope you had a great time over the holidays, you and your family.
00:00:50.945 --> 00:00:55.593
The conversation, the podcast we did with James Burnham end of last year was excellent.
00:00:55.753 --> 00:00:57.015
He is a wonderful man.
00:00:57.055 --> 00:00:58.578
He has a big heart.
00:00:58.898 --> 00:01:02.984
He's living in Hiroshima in Japan, writing a new album.
00:01:03.024 --> 00:01:08.593
As you know, he served his mission in Japan and he's there for a year or so on this new adventure.
00:01:08.653 --> 00:01:09.834
It was a wonderful conversation.
00:01:09.855 --> 00:01:16.245
He led us into the podcast with a great song that is written and he had one at the end.
00:01:16.346 --> 00:01:17.727
So I really enjoyed it.
00:01:17.927 --> 00:01:19.030
He's got a great story.
00:01:19.650 --> 00:01:23.052
And yeah, it was wonderful and very spiritual.
00:01:23.634 --> 00:01:25.234
There was a great spirit in the conversation.
00:01:25.314 --> 00:01:27.597
So yeah, great to have him back on.
00:01:28.257 --> 00:01:30.299
Well, yeah, I agree.
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.944
I thought his songs, it would be nice.
00:01:34.644 --> 00:01:37.126
He sent us actually studio recordings of the songs.
00:01:37.206 --> 00:01:48.897
And so I'm wondering if maybe I should tack those on either to that podcast or to this podcast, because it's really difficult to get the audio effect of just how good they were.
00:01:49.762 --> 00:01:51.703
from what we're doing here.
00:01:52.424 --> 00:01:54.766
But we're moving on to a different topic here.
00:01:55.207 --> 00:02:00.412
This is a new year, which means it's a new subject for Come Follow Me.
00:02:00.453 --> 00:02:08.602
And the church has standardized its lessons, not just in Sunday school, but just across the board.
00:02:08.641 --> 00:02:14.127
And the Come Follow Me subject this year, every year, it's a different volume of scripture.
00:02:14.187 --> 00:02:15.530
Last year, it was the Book of Mormon.
00:02:16.189 --> 00:02:19.493
This year, it's the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History.
00:02:20.289 --> 00:02:31.441
And one of the things that's been very interesting about this is that the Come Follow Me topics are not just covered in Sunday School, in Priesthood, in Relief Society.
00:02:32.281 --> 00:02:35.123
They are also covered in Primary as well.
00:02:36.324 --> 00:02:42.251
And the Primary releases a manual, a children's manual that's illustrated.
00:02:42.270 --> 00:02:49.418
And it's been a long time since I cracked open a physical manual of any kind.
00:02:50.145 --> 00:02:52.750
They used to, at the beginning of the year, they would pass out.
00:02:52.789 --> 00:03:04.465
I remember during the whole teachings of the prophets, you'd have a different manual every year for priesthood with a different prophet on the cover because you were covering the teachings of Wilford Woodruff or the teachings of David O.
00:03:04.485 --> 00:03:04.945
McKay.
00:03:04.985 --> 00:03:11.354
But very quickly, that became sort of an online thing.
00:03:11.375 --> 00:03:19.645
I stopped picking up those physical manuals because I could read the manuals online, and pretty much everything has moved online.
00:03:20.322 --> 00:03:26.290
And so has the children's manual, the primary manual for church history.
00:03:27.032 --> 00:03:45.719
And one of the things that has attracted a great deal of attention is the fact that this year's church history primary manual includes an article or a section about plural marriage, which is not something...
00:03:45.740 --> 00:03:47.682
I know, Ian, you never went to primary.
00:03:47.823 --> 00:03:49.385
You joined the church...
00:03:49.858 --> 00:03:54.443
past your primary years, but your children went to primary, did they not?
00:03:54.462 --> 00:03:55.343
They did.
00:03:55.484 --> 00:03:57.507
Yes, they went through the whole primary program.
00:03:57.586 --> 00:04:03.073
I joined at 16, you know, but they went through the entire church primary youth curriculum.
00:04:04.074 --> 00:04:10.401
And how many times did they come back and say, hey, dad, today we learned about plural marriage in primary?
00:04:11.241 --> 00:04:12.082
Big fat zero.
00:04:12.843 --> 00:04:13.044
Yeah.
00:04:15.145 --> 00:04:15.225
Yeah.
00:04:15.246 --> 00:04:18.028
I did not learn about plural marriage in primary growing up.
00:04:18.689 --> 00:04:22.514
Back in my day, primary, you had all these cutesy little names.
00:04:22.755 --> 00:04:27.262
I remember being a targeteer and being a blazer.
00:04:27.322 --> 00:04:30.185
All the classes had their own names.
00:04:30.305 --> 00:04:32.309
The blazers, we even had a song.
00:04:32.528 --> 00:04:37.276
Light the torch, light the torch, blaze the way to the priesthood of God.
00:04:37.877 --> 00:04:41.882
Because the blazers were blazing the trail to the Aaronic priesthood.
00:04:42.242 --> 00:04:45.608
So I still have goofy memories of all of that.
00:04:46.148 --> 00:04:50.610
What I don't have are any memories of plural marriage even coming up?
00:04:51.129 --> 00:05:06.331
And in fact, every time, even in the adult curriculum, every time we get to section 132, the instructions in the manual, because I taught seminary for three years and I taught church history in seminary for three years.
00:05:07.754 --> 00:05:09.336
No, I taught church history.
00:05:09.375 --> 00:05:10.997
I taught the Old Testament.
00:05:11.038 --> 00:05:11.920
I taught the New Testament.
00:05:11.980 --> 00:05:12.980
I taught church history.
00:05:13.562 --> 00:05:16.346
I never taught a year of the Book of Mormon when I was a seminary teacher.
00:05:16.994 --> 00:05:25.584
But in all of the manuals where I've taught church history, there was always a disclaimer, always a, please don't focus on plural marriage.
00:05:26.223 --> 00:05:29.367
If plural marriage comes up, here's how you might want to deal with it.
00:05:30.209 --> 00:05:41.060
But it always struck me as disingenuous and somewhat misleading to discuss section 132 and presume it was about anything other than plural marriage.
00:05:41.240 --> 00:05:45.954
And in fact, There are elements of it that I think are wonderful and beautiful.
00:05:46.014 --> 00:05:53.386
And the whole idea of bringing, binding the whole human family together through the sealing ordinance, that's all in section 132.
00:05:54.327 --> 00:05:56.050
And that becomes the focus of the lesson.
00:05:56.189 --> 00:05:58.935
And there's usually a great deal to talk about there.
00:05:58.975 --> 00:06:05.163
So it's not hard to do to sort of sidestep plural marriage.
00:06:06.024 --> 00:06:07.648
But I really...
00:06:07.747 --> 00:06:08.809
This I...
00:06:09.281 --> 00:06:13.466
The idea of putting it in the primary manual is getting a lot of criticism.
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And I want to say at the outset that I think this is a good thing, or at least the impulse behind it is good.
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Because throughout my life, the strategy with regard to plural marriage has been to pretend it didn't happen.
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Or if it did happen, to pretend it was this tiny little aberration.
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I remember...
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Did you read, it was part of the missionary library.
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Do you remember the book Truth Restored by Gordon B.
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Hinckley?
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I do.
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It has a chapter on plural marriage, but it just says, oh, this was just something that was done very temporarily.
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It really, it very quickly dismisses it.
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It says this was done as a religious principle and it was gone fairly quickly and let's not talk about it anymore.
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And that really was the extent to which plural marriage was addressed in official church materials for years and years and years.
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But here we have the primary plural marriage.
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It's short enough.
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Would you mind if I were just to read the whole thing?
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It's not very long.
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Go ahead.
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All right.
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It says, and there are pictures, and the pictures are really kind of fun.
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While the prophet Joseph...
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I want to stop there.
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Because the Lord didn't say that.
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I mean, the Lord did say that to some degree in the Book of Mormon.
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But in section 132...
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Well, actually, okay, I'm going to give that a little more...
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If you go back and look at it, it talks about the fact that David and Solomon were not justified in the plural wives they took beyond the ones that were authorized.
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So I guess you could...
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Right there, I have a problem with that statement.
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All right, but I'm going to keep going.
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The Lord said that usually a man should have only one wife, but sometimes the Lord commanded his people to be in marriages of one man and more than one woman.
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This was called plural marriage.
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The Lord told Joseph that his people should only be in plural marriages if he commands it.
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Again, that's a little skittish, but okay.
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A few years later, the Lord told Joseph to marry other women.
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Joseph didn't want to marry other wives, but he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
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When Joseph asked a woman to marry him, he told her to pray about it.
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He wanted her to know from the Lord that it was right.
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The picture on this is just so much fun.
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It's just Joseph with his face and his hands like, oh no, all is lost.
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I'm so miserable.
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I have to have sex with so many other women.
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Anyway, sorry.
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This commandment was also hard for Joseph's first wife, Emma.
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Sometimes Emma helped Joseph decide who he should ask to marry him.
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Other times, Emma did not want Joseph to marry other women.
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That's...
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That's as big an understatement as you can possibly make.
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I mean, there was a very narrow window in which Emma was open to plural marriage and said, okay, fine, you can marry the Partridge sisters.
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But the problem was Joseph had already married the Partridge sisters without telling Emma.
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And so he staged a second wedding ceremony.
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where he married the Parker sisters all over again and said, please don't tell Emma that this is the second time we've done this.
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So there's really a whole lot of finessing is the kindest word I can use.
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Sweeping things under the carpet, understating.
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I mean, just saying other times Emma did not want Joseph to marry other women.
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Yeah, all other times and including the entire rest of her life where she denied that Joseph ever practiced polygamy.
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I mean, she was just a vehement opponent to plural marriage from the outset.
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When Doctrine and Covenants section 132 was written, it was first written to give to Hiram so that Hiram could go, because Hiram said, hey, if you give me a revelation, I can take it to Emma.
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And I can convince her.
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And Joseph says, yeah, you don't know Emma like I do.
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But he dictated the revelation.
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Hiram wrote it down, took it into Emma.
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Emma threw it on the fireplace and burned it.
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And so the version we have now later was dictated later.
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And there's debate as to— Whether or not it was actually dictated or whether it's a forgery by Brigham Young, I don't know that we want to get into that here.
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We've talked about that before.
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Anyway, finishing this article.
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So Joseph taught the 12 apostles about plural marriage.
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It was a hard commandment for them too.
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Okay, again, this is not telling the full story.
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Joseph taught the 12 apostles, but he taught them onesie twosie.
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There were some apostles that knew, there were some apostles that did not.
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And there was a lot of contention behind the scenes as to whether Joseph was really authorizing plural marriage.
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I think eventually all 12 apostles found out about it.
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I'm not sure if they found out about it directly from Joseph.
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It may have been after Joseph died.
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But anyway, and to say it was a hard commandment for them to, again, that's finessing things because I think Certainly, Brigham Young, I mean, Brigham Young is on record as saying that he envied the dead when he first heard about it.
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But Brigham Young clearly, throughout the course of his life, came to embrace it to the point where saying it was a hard commandment for him really did not describe Brigham Young's experience.
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Anyway, Brigham Young and his wife, Marianne, prayed a lot.
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Okay, Marianne was his second wife, but his first wife had died.
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Anyway.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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In 1890, the Lord told Wilford Woodruff, the president of the church, that men should not marry more than one wife anymore.
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Okay, I want to stop there because that, I think, is just not accurate.
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Because the manifesto now, in hindsight, we look at it and we say, yeah, okay.
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The Lord told that was a revelation.
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When you read the language of the manifesto in Official Declaration 2, and there is no hint of a revelation in it.
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It is, I've just told everybody to stop performing marriages that are contrary to the laws of the land.
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And the idea that this was the end of plural marriage because the Lord revealed to Wilford Woodruff that plural marriage had to end in 1890 is belied by the facts, facts that got D.
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Michael Quinn excommunicated, because the legacy of post-manifesto polygamy is very well documented.
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And the manifesto essentially just ended polygamy in the United States, and leaders sent...
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members of the church to Mexico.
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That's where the Mexican colonies began because you had people saying, okay, if we can't do this in the United States, we'll continue practicing plural marriage elsewhere.
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A number of members, a number of apostles entered into plural marriage after 1890.
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So if there had been a revelation to Wilford Woodruff ending plural marriage, we wouldn't have had to have the second manifesto which took place, I mean, you could even argue there was a third manifesto.
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It wasn't until 1910, 20 years after 1890, you can do the math, that plural marriage became an excommunicable offense, that the church no longer tolerated plural marriage.
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If you entered into plural marriage after 1910, you could be excommunicated.
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But if you entered into plural marriage for a full 20 years, between 1890 and 1910, There was no revelation from Wilford Woodruff that denied that.
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Or if there was, we've never seen it.
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Anyway, so it then says, the leaders of the church shared these commandments with the saints.
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This is still the Lord's commandment today.
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A man should be married to only one wife.
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Now, all of these have links.
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That's the end of the article.
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They all have links to not only scriptures, but to pages in saints.
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which is the new church history, which I think is a very good church history, that does, I really think, a very good job of confronting difficult, hard facts.
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And I think the way polygamy is described in Saints is fairly consistent with this, but I think Saints also obviously gets into more detail and gets into some of the nuances that I brought up here.
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So there's the article.
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This is what we're now teaching our children in primary.
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You don't have children in primary.
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I don't have children in primary anymore.
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But I'd be very interested to hear your reaction to this.
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What do you think?
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It's quite an extraordinary development, I think.
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You said at the outset that you thought, I think you said you thought this generally was a positive thing.
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Yeah.
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in respect to bringing this to primary children and youth.
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And broadly, very broadly, I agree.
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You've gone through the article.
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I have real issues with the article.
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Before I get into some specifics here, because I want to touch on some of the specific points in that, I just want to remind us and our listeners of a...
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An important lesson, which was in the old gospel principles manual that we used to teach from, if you remember those, when our investigators would join the church, when they'd just been baptized, they would get a copy of the gospel principles.
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These are the fundamental principles that the church taught going back.
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These books were written in the 70s, and we gave them out in the 80s.
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The church has still got this material.
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His lesson is still on its website.
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I just want to share something that I think is really, really important.
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So the lesson is chapter 31, the old gospel principles book, and it's titled Honesty.
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And in the lesson, it says here that lying is intentionally deceiving others.
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Bearing false witness is a form of lying.
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The Lord gave this commandment to the children of Israel.
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Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
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Jesus also taught this when he was on the earth.
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There are many other forms of lying.
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When we speak untruths, we are guilty of lying.
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We can also intentionally deceive others by a gesture or a look or by silence or by telling only part of the truth.
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Whenever we lead people in any way to believe something that is not true, we are not being honest.
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And the lesson does not pull any punches in regards to the importance and the value of being honest.
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It's also in the 13th article of faith, which says we believe in being honest.
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There's many references in that lesson to the Book of Mormon.
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There's a number of other materials which were written by General authorities are referenced by general authorities.
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There's also a talk by Neal A.
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Maxwell, which talks extensively about the importance of being honest, which he makes references to that lesson, I understand.
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So going back to the article here, whilst I agree with your comment that the decision by the church to include this in the children's material is broadly a positive thing.
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The church, in my opinion, falls well short, frankly, and I want to give some examples there that you've kind of touched upon them, of still, even now, can't be completely honest, still withholding some important elements of the facts.
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And just for context, we know why they're doing this.
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It's a very intelligent decision, again, by the church in terms of retaining primary and, you know, dealing with these issues early on in the life of a child.
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And I would call that, it's like a form, or it actually is inoculation.
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You know, when we inoculate ourselves, we're preparing ourselves for a potential risk of, you know, virus or disease.
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You know, when I was young, I got the measles jab.
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I got the chicken pox jab.
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I don't think I got measles, I think, when I was younger.
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I still had the jab.
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You
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didn't have a chicken pox vaccine when you were younger.
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I don't think.
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I think that's fairly recent.
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Is it?
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Right.
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Well, I remember getting two jabs as a kid in school way back now, and it was to inoculate you for these things.
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That's right.
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And so it's a very smart move by the church to address these issues early on in a child's life, because when a child gets to 10, 12, has got the internet, et cetera, and will discover all these issues online.
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And so the church is trying to inoculate the primary.
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So when they do have When these issues come up, they know that they were taught these things to an extent, you know, early on in primary.
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So I understand that.
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The churches, someone told me over the holidays, somebody very senior that we hope to get on the podcast.
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They're very high up in the church.
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They're at the temple presidency level.
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We'll talk about this later.
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The church has a strategy to inoculate.
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youth and primary, which makes sense, to deal with these issues and slowly kind of open up these issues early on in order to retain and hang on to the primary and hang on to the youth.
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You said several times that the church is hemorrhaging significant numbers of youth who are not bothered about religion, not just about whether it's true or not.
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And so the church has to contend with all these different challenges.
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How does it hold on to its future?
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Well, you invest in the primary.
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So just getting into the children's material here, I agree with you.
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I couldn't find anything where God...
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He read about prophets like Abraham and Moses who had been married to more than one wife.
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Joseph wondered about that.
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And then where the Lord said that usually a man should have only one wife.
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I couldn't find anything that...
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was explicit in respect to that.
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So that is not true.
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Where I'm going with this is that the church is still falling short on the facts and the context in teaching the children here.
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And I find that if we go by that standard that we just read, by that logic, by that principle, those lessons on honesty, by not telling the...
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the full truth, you know, withholding a little, actually quite a lot, that's, by definition, dishonest.
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And the other point as well, we talked about this, if you're teaching, if you're not, by that definition, if you're not being honest when you're teaching this lesson, you know, to children or youth or whoever, is the Holy Ghost present?
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If you're deliberately withholding information, withholding the facts, we taught that the Holy Ghost teaches truth and if you speak a lie it won't confirm that lie as a truth that was fundamental that's the bedrock of the gospel that's the fundamental principle of the gospel that the holy ghost testifies of truth it doesn't testify of lies or deception um so and then the other thing which i find very disturbing in this material is um you know he says here that uh Joseph decided to ask the Lord, which is fine.
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The Lord said that usually a man should only have one wife, etc.
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And he talked about plural marriage there.
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The Lord told Joseph that people should only be in plural marriage if he commands it.
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And then a few years later, he told Joseph to marry other women.
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Joseph didn't want to marry other women.
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There's so much missing there.
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There's other relationships that Joseph had with other women that Emma didn't know about.
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And you've mentioned that as well.
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There's no reference to that anywhere in this material.
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You know, when Joseph asked to marry, she says, but a few years later, the Lord told Joseph to marry other women.
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Joseph didn't want to marry otherwise, but he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
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When Joseph asked a woman to marry him, he told her to pray about it.
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Which woman are we talking about?
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Which woman are they referring to here?
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The details are so important.
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You know, children like stories.
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They like detail.
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And when my kids were growing up, I was pretty good at telling stories.
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In fact, I was too good.
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I used to inadvertently, one time, one story got a little bit scary.
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And Debbie said, oh, that's a bit too much because the kids are probably a little bit scared of that story.
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I was pretty good at storytelling.
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Kids love stories.
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They like the details.
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So, you know, when he says here, when Joseph asked a woman to marry him, who is that, Jim?
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He told her to pray about it.
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Is that...
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No, let's get specific here.
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Who is the material talking about?
00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:34.941
We don't know that, do we?
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He wanted her to know from the Lord that it was right.
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Well, I mean, if you look at the timing of plural marriage...
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Joseph had his relationship with Fanny Alger long before plural marriage became what it became in Nauvoo.
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So Fanny Alger, we're looking at about 1835 or 1836, probably before the Kirtland Temple, and then no other plural marriages for another five years.
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So critics generally say, okay, Joseph had an affair with in 1835 with Fanny Alger.
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Oliver Cowdery called it an affair.
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It's one of the reasons Oliver Cowdery left the church.
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And it's one of the reasons I don't have a lot of patience for people who say, oh, geez, Joseph never practiced plural marriage.
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I mean, I think the fact that Oliver Cowdery was concerned enough about what happened with Fanny Alger suggests that.
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So, I mean, in this article, that doesn't seem to be a reference to Fanny Alger.
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because the revelation on plural marriage as we have it wasn't dictated until Nauvoo, until very late in Joseph Smith's life.
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So anyway.
00:26:55.467 --> 00:27:00.813
So, yeah, I was thinking of Fanny Alger when I was reading this, but there's no specific reference to who this person is.
00:27:01.874 --> 00:27:03.496
But he knew it was a commandment from the Lord.
00:27:03.895 --> 00:27:05.478
Joseph asked a woman to marry him.
00:27:05.518 --> 00:27:07.319
Did Emma know about that?
00:27:07.601 --> 00:27:08.801
I suspect she didn't.
00:27:10.124 --> 00:27:11.404
She didn't know about Fanny Alger.
00:27:11.444 --> 00:27:12.066
We know that.
00:27:12.385 --> 00:27:18.753
No, I don't know if I know the analogy, but whoever this woman is that is referencing the material, did Emma know about that?
00:27:18.894 --> 00:27:21.196
And probably she did not know about that.
00:27:21.738 --> 00:27:25.563
And again, by that logic, by that church same standard, is that honest?
00:27:26.104 --> 00:27:35.096
How do you reconcile that whole secret marrying, having these physical relationships, et cetera?
00:27:35.135 --> 00:27:38.339
How do you reconcile that with not telling Emma?
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:39.862
I just can't get past that.
00:27:40.642 --> 00:27:44.606
Okay, plural marriage, let's give him a little bit of benefit here.
00:27:44.646 --> 00:27:46.528
Let's say he didn't want a practical plural marriage.
00:27:47.148 --> 00:27:49.672
He couldn't stand the thought of it, let's say, for argument's sake.
00:27:50.512 --> 00:27:58.301
And why not go to your wife and say, look, God has commanded me, as soon as the revelation happens, you and I would do this.
00:27:59.083 --> 00:28:10.990
If we got a revelation from God who told us to, right now, we're married, he told us to have more than one wife, the revelation was clear, And what would we do?
00:28:11.030 --> 00:28:23.547
We would go to our wives and we would share the experience, explain the revelation, describe what happened, and we would lay it all out in front of our wives, wouldn't we?
00:28:23.686 --> 00:28:24.728
We would do that, wouldn't we?
00:28:25.107 --> 00:28:31.615
Whether it's 2024 or 1835 or 1832, it doesn't matter.
00:28:32.017 --> 00:28:35.621
Principles of honesty and decency and integrity never change.
00:28:36.721 --> 00:28:42.500
The fundamental principles of the gospel, like Christ taught, And the prophets taught have never changed.
00:28:42.540 --> 00:28:45.223
Honesty has been an internal principle, has it not?
00:28:46.346 --> 00:28:59.843
From the very beginning, the very foundations of the church, from the time of the war in heaven, from the very beginning, it's the thing that holds up the universe, right?
00:28:59.863 --> 00:29:06.570
Is integrity and honesty and laws of physics and laws of these fundamental principles, which are eternal, are they not?
00:29:07.051 --> 00:29:07.352
They are.
00:29:07.392 --> 00:29:08.534
And so...
00:29:09.026 --> 00:29:11.469
We can't argue that this was a different time.
00:29:11.489 --> 00:29:14.594
It was different back then, so we could be dishonest back then.
00:29:14.854 --> 00:29:20.662
But why not, after the revelation, go to your wife and sit down and say, have I done a revelation?
00:29:21.022 --> 00:29:21.763
It's disturbing.
00:29:21.804 --> 00:29:24.426
It's making me sick and ill.
00:29:24.507 --> 00:29:25.127
I don't want to do it.
00:29:25.147 --> 00:29:26.068
This is what happened.
00:29:26.089 --> 00:29:27.030
This is what the Lord said.
00:29:27.711 --> 00:29:29.755
Why not involve Emma from the outset?
00:29:30.355 --> 00:29:37.945
Why go to a woman, whoever she is, and ask her to marry him and tell her to pray about it without talking to Emma?
00:29:39.009 --> 00:29:40.090
It just doesn't make sense.
00:29:40.131 --> 00:29:41.212
Where's the honesty in that?
00:29:41.512 --> 00:29:46.460
To me, that's the act of behavior of a very dishonest person that's trying to conceal.
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:48.122
It's trying to hide.
00:29:48.982 --> 00:29:51.145
Where's the transparency and accountability?
00:29:51.605 --> 00:30:00.057
Where's the principles in that lesson, 31, on honesty, which is a great, great lesson, by the way?
00:30:00.917 --> 00:30:07.066
And then it goes on to say, and you talked about this, you read this, this commandment was also hard for Joseph's first wife, Emma.
00:30:07.554 --> 00:30:11.439
Sometimes Emma helped Joseph decide who he should marry, asked to marry him.
00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:15.022
Other times Emma did not want Joseph to marry the women.
00:30:15.503 --> 00:30:19.348
So your knowledge of this history is better than mine.
00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:26.897
Again, getting specifics here, who did Emma help Joseph decide to marry?
00:30:26.917 --> 00:30:30.001
Yeah, that was the Partridge sisters.
00:30:31.041 --> 00:30:35.326
Okay, so the Partridge sisters were essentially Joseph's foster children.
00:30:35.587 --> 00:30:38.892
They've been described that way, although I don't know that that's entirely accurate.
00:30:40.834 --> 00:30:46.240
I don't know if their parents were dead or what it was, but they were living in the Smith household.
00:30:47.323 --> 00:30:57.715
And the Smiths, but they were also sort of, just like Fanny Alger, they were also sort of servants to some degree.
00:30:58.155 --> 00:30:58.876
I mean, they...
00:30:59.682 --> 00:31:01.163
helped take care of the house.
00:31:01.243 --> 00:31:01.984
They helped Emma.
00:31:02.826 --> 00:31:04.807
So Emma had a relationship with them.
00:31:06.049 --> 00:31:10.915
And so the way I've always envisioned it is, okay, well, fine.
00:31:10.955 --> 00:31:15.000
If you have to marry somebody, you can marry the Partridge sisters.
00:31:15.040 --> 00:31:15.721
I know them.
00:31:15.741 --> 00:31:16.502
I like them.
00:31:16.542 --> 00:31:18.625
They already live in our house.
00:31:19.446 --> 00:31:24.753
I mean, I think that was a huge concession on Emma's part.
00:31:24.834 --> 00:31:31.601
I mean, if I went to my wife and said, you know, pick who my next wife is going to be.
00:31:31.741 --> 00:31:36.107
We don't have anybody living in the house, but I can't imagine her saying, well, I like so-and-so.
00:31:36.127 --> 00:31:37.611
I wouldn't mind if she were around.
00:31:38.811 --> 00:31:40.935
So that's who I think that's a reference to.
00:31:41.236 --> 00:31:48.346
I don't know of any other specific marriage that Emma would have approved.
00:31:48.547 --> 00:31:58.241
I think there's some evidence that she knew of some of the others, but there's a great deal of evidence that she didn't know about the vast majority of them.
00:31:58.913 --> 00:32:10.747
And when you talk about honesty, if you read the Gospel Topics essays on polygamy, they talk about the idea that many of these marriages happened.
00:32:10.846 --> 00:32:11.989
I think that's the word they use.
00:32:12.048 --> 00:32:16.252
Without Emma's knowledge, many is understating it.
00:32:17.275 --> 00:32:17.714
Yeah.
00:32:17.815 --> 00:32:18.476
Overwhelming.
00:32:18.596 --> 00:32:20.637
I mean, Joseph married nearly 40 women.
00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:26.505
And Emma may have known about the number Emma knew about was in the single digits.
00:32:27.405 --> 00:32:27.486
Yeah.
00:32:27.650 --> 00:32:30.834
So you've said this is a good move on the church.
00:32:30.953 --> 00:32:38.262
And again, I said generally that's, again, very broadly, that's probably strategically it's a good move.
00:32:38.462 --> 00:32:41.006
And generally it's good that they're talking about this.
00:32:41.487 --> 00:32:47.034
But it's clear Joseph Smith lied about his relationships to Emma.
00:32:47.433 --> 00:32:48.075
He lied.
00:32:48.115 --> 00:32:50.178
He didn't tell her.
00:32:50.458 --> 00:32:51.219
He didn't involve her.
00:32:51.558 --> 00:32:53.442
He didn't involve her right from the outset.
00:32:53.882 --> 00:32:56.085
He did things behind her back, Jim.
00:32:56.404 --> 00:32:56.705
Agreed?
00:32:57.281 --> 00:32:57.823
Agreed.
00:32:58.683 --> 00:32:58.864
Well,
00:32:59.744 --> 00:33:24.657
the reason I say it's a good thing, and I want to qualify this, because polygamy, I think, other than perhaps race and the priesthood, polygamy is the biggest obstacle for people who join the church and for people who discover it who are in the church to be able to reconcile it with the idea that Joseph was a prophet.
00:33:25.442 --> 00:33:45.866
and that this is in fact God's church, because there really is no way to look at the historical record and conclude that Joseph entirely conducted himself honorably in this, which is what essentially apologists try to do.
00:33:45.886 --> 00:33:53.977
Or you have the Michelle Brady Stone approach, which is, no, Joseph didn't practice polygamy.
00:33:54.594 --> 00:33:57.017
It was entirely an invention of Brigham Young.
00:33:58.018 --> 00:34:03.865
And for some people that solves it.
00:34:04.445 --> 00:34:21.186
For me, I think that makes it far worse because that means that Brigham Young completely and fraudulently, Brigham Young's lies, Joseph lied to Emma, Brigham Young in that scenario would have lied to the entire church.
00:34:21.922 --> 00:34:28.628
and would have lied to all of the apostles and said, okay, yeah, Joseph invented this, even though I'm inventing this.
00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:34.936
I don't think people who believe that should be kicked out of the church.
00:34:35.097 --> 00:34:40.762
I mean, that's the conversation that Michelle Brady Stone and I had on her podcast that got a little bit heated.
00:34:41.704 --> 00:34:48.592
But I also don't see, in my mind, how anyone would be able to reconcile that.
00:34:49.231 --> 00:34:50.313
If I believe that...
00:34:51.233 --> 00:34:54.938
I don't know how I would be able to stay in the church.
00:34:55.778 --> 00:35:12.818
So yeah, you have to confront the reality that for all of Joseph Smith's accomplishments, all of Joseph Smith's clear inspiration, which I think evidence for is plentiful.
00:35:12.918 --> 00:35:18.646
I think the Book of Mormon is plentiful evidence that Joseph had contact with the divine.
00:35:19.297 --> 00:35:23.922
and that was an instrument in God's hands to bring about all kinds of wonderful stuff.
00:35:25.224 --> 00:35:30.889
For all of the good of Joseph Smith, you also have a Joseph Smith who lied to his wife.
00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:35.413
And you also have a Joseph Smith that handled polygamy.
00:35:35.474 --> 00:35:44.402
I mean, the way this article tries to massage, I mean, the Joseph's approach to women that he would marry.
00:35:44.422 --> 00:35:48.226
It says, okay, he'd ask them to pray about it.
00:35:49.186 --> 00:35:50.268
Well, yeah, he would.
00:35:50.307 --> 00:35:56.757
But the power differential in all of those conversations was enormous.
00:35:58.059 --> 00:36:02.043
And it was, here I have a prophet of God telling me I need to marry him.
00:36:02.385 --> 00:36:11.898
And he would, the critics, I think, very often go too far because they say, oh, he would say, okay, if you don't marry me, an angel's going to cut off my head.
00:36:11.938 --> 00:36:14.242
And that's really not what he did.
00:36:15.074 --> 00:36:24.927
But he did say things like, if I don't enter into plural marriage, not if I don't marry you specifically, but if I don't enter into plural marriage, there's an angel that's going to cut off my head.
00:36:24.947 --> 00:36:47.648
I mean, he would, the amount of pressure that he applied either intentionally or unintentionally, and I think it's the unintentional pressure, just the fact of Joseph, of a prophet of God walking into you, That's an interesting choice of words.
00:36:48.009 --> 00:36:54.536
Prophet God walking in to talk to you and say, hey, God wants you to marry me.
00:36:56.579 --> 00:37:11.277
Even if he does that in the most, and please, please, you know, go ask yourself, even if he does that in the most gracious and unpressured way possible, which I think he did in several of these circumstances, not all of them.
00:37:12.358 --> 00:37:14.521
I think in others he applied more pressure than that.
00:37:15.233 --> 00:37:28.009
But even if that's all he does, the amount of power this man has and the amount of pressure the woman would feel is just enormous.
00:37:28.130 --> 00:37:29.351
It's just overwhelming.
00:37:29.530 --> 00:37:34.938
And it's impossible to look at that and not be troubled by it, I think.
00:37:35.938 --> 00:37:39.563
Intellectually, honestly, to look at that and say, well, there's really nothing wrong with that.
00:37:39.623 --> 00:37:41.244
And really God's hand is in all of this.
00:37:42.407 --> 00:37:59.253
I think the only way you can land in a way that preserves your faith is to accept, again, and this is the overwhelming theme of everything that I've ever said on this podcast, but you have to accept the reality of prophetic fallibility.
00:37:59.934 --> 00:38:10.974
You have to accept that, okay, there may have been some sort of divine core to what Joseph was doing, but he did it very badly, that he botched it.
00:38:11.809 --> 00:38:18.998
that he did not implement polygamy in a way that kept faith with Emma, that was honest to the world.
00:38:19.038 --> 00:38:31.733
I do think a lot of the criticism about polygamy, it's easy to overstate it, but that's only because at its core, it's so troubling.
00:38:32.273 --> 00:38:36.318
It's so troubling to have a man like this marrying multiple women.
00:38:37.018 --> 00:38:45.034
Now, and I'm aware and I have made a lot of the apologetic arguments for this, and some of them, I think, do hold water.
00:38:45.114 --> 00:39:11.588
For instance, I think the evidence is overwhelming that Joseph Smith was a believer, that he believed in his own revelations, that by the time polygamy was implemented, that whatever experiences he was having with the divine, they had convinced him that he was a prophet and that this was a religious principle.
00:39:11.628 --> 00:39:19.936
Even if you read Fawn Brody, for instance, No Man Knows My History, which was the definitive biography of Joseph Smith up until Richard Bushman wrote Rough Stone Rolling.
00:39:21.539 --> 00:39:26.563
She introduces what Dan Vogel has come to call the pious fraud model.
00:39:27.324 --> 00:39:39.650
That is that Joseph Smith began as a fraud and fraudulently wrote the Book of Mormon, but at some point, sort of was transformed, at least in his own mind, into a prophet.
00:39:40.150 --> 00:39:42.913
That at some point he started to believe, yes, he is a prophet.
00:39:43.614 --> 00:39:50.760
Now, the difficulty with that model is that you don't have any sort of historical document where that took place.
00:39:51.501 --> 00:39:55.786
You don't even have historical documents that show that kind of an evolution.
00:39:56.927 --> 00:40:06.893
We don't have any historical documents where Joseph isn't completely and totally sincere about in his announcements, even in his private writings.
00:40:07.695 --> 00:40:13.362
Joseph clearly, if he was a fraud, he had convinced himself.
00:40:13.521 --> 00:40:14.682
He had defrauded himself.
00:40:15.824 --> 00:40:20.030
And so I begin with the idea that Joseph Smith is a believer.
00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:26.777
And so Joseph Smith goes forward with plural marriage, believing it is a religious principle.
00:40:27.489 --> 00:40:38.181
If plural marriage were solely an excuse for Joseph Smith to bed as many women as he could, it was a really poor mechanism for doing that.
00:40:38.842 --> 00:40:45.329
The guy who did that really well was a guy I am not related to, but I share his last name, John C.
00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:53.557
Bennett, who was a member of the first presidency who went about convincing women that they were his spiritual wives.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.922
And so they could have sex.
00:40:57.570 --> 00:41:02.538
and they didn't have to tell their mortal wives because spiritually they were married.
00:41:03.619 --> 00:41:06.724
This was a different thing than from what Joseph Smith was doing.
00:41:06.864 --> 00:41:17.059
And I think Joseph Smith justified a lot of his public statements against polygamy by framing them as condemnations of John C.
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:19.083
Bennett's spiritual wifery.
00:41:20.085 --> 00:41:31.065
And so he would get people who were married to him, who were entered into plural marriage, to sign affidavits saying spiritual wifery is an abomination.
00:41:32.047 --> 00:41:36.773
And historians now look at that or just lay members look at that and go, he was lying.
00:41:36.813 --> 00:41:44.925
And I say, well, it's not quite that simple because in his mind, he was condemning a practice that was different from what he was doing.
00:41:45.887 --> 00:41:53.257
But those distinctions are lost on most people who look at plural marriage and say, really, what's the difference?
00:41:54.081 --> 00:42:03.231
And part of the difference, too, is that, yes, Joseph was married to, the estimates vary, they always say up to 40 wives.
00:42:04.112 --> 00:42:05.514
He was married to that many women.
00:42:06.275 --> 00:42:14.105
Most of these women, the vast majority of these women, got a marriage ceremony and little else, and nothing else, really.
00:42:15.405 --> 00:42:22.134
Joseph did have sexual relations with his plural wives, but only a handful of them.
00:42:22.306 --> 00:42:23.688
not 40 women.
00:42:23.867 --> 00:42:27.673
He was not, uh, in doing what John C.
00:42:27.715 --> 00:42:34.525
Bennett was doing, which is just trying to find any woman he could and using some spiritual pretext to convince them to go to bed with him.
00:42:35.447 --> 00:42:54.478
Uh, so I look at that and I, I look at plural marriage and I, the, the grace I can give to plural marriage is grace that comes from the idea that, um, I try to put myself in the mind of the people who were asked to practice this principle.
00:42:54.498 --> 00:42:57.463
And for many of them, it was hard.
00:42:57.583 --> 00:42:58.505
It was difficult.
00:42:59.588 --> 00:43:06.398
And it was difficult for the women more than the men, obviously, on an exponential scale.
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:13.389
But the family dynamic of plural marriage, in some ways...
00:43:13.793 --> 00:43:17.199
was, well, no, I don't want to sugarcoat this.
00:43:17.239 --> 00:43:18.942
I don't want to soft coat it.
00:43:18.961 --> 00:43:20.585
It was a huge burden on women.
00:43:20.605 --> 00:43:24.070
It was hugely anti-feminist in most ways.
00:43:24.811 --> 00:43:27.617
And I don't want to say anything that would undermine that idea.
00:43:28.597 --> 00:43:34.628
Where it was difficult for men was in the idea that they were strangers in their own homes.
00:43:35.849 --> 00:43:43.231
And if you look at plural marriage as it was practiced after Nauvoo, because Richard Bushman makes the distinction.
00:43:43.291 --> 00:43:48.536
He says, Joseph Smith did not practice domestic polygamy the same way Brigham Young did.
00:43:48.617 --> 00:43:50.579
He practiced sealing polygamy.
00:43:51.340 --> 00:44:03.851
He had all these wives sealed to him and felt no obligation to take care of them, no obligation to even acknowledge them after the sealing, except for the handful with whom he had sexual relations.
00:44:05.452 --> 00:44:20.893
Whereas domestic polygamy, as it was practiced in the Utah Territory, in the Deseret territory, involved men going and visiting the households in which their plural wives and children lived.
00:44:21.855 --> 00:44:29.467
And if they had more than one or two wives, they were essentially visitors in these households.
00:44:29.527 --> 00:44:34.914
They would go and visit them, and they didn't run the show, and they didn't know their children very well.
00:44:34.934 --> 00:44:36.336
I mean, Brigham Young...
00:44:36.961 --> 00:44:41.766
There's a story of Brigham Young meeting somebody on the street and him asking, who's your father?
00:44:41.847 --> 00:44:43.068
And they said, you are.
00:44:44.269 --> 00:44:51.036
I mean, he had close to 60 children and all these households, and he didn't know any of them.
00:44:51.398 --> 00:45:00.367
I mean, he knew a handful of them that were close to him, but polygamy, the dynamic of polygamy was just a mess from beginning to end.
00:45:00.407 --> 00:45:13.038
It didn't allow a certain amount of latitude to For the Relief Society, I just finished reading a book called American Zion by Dr.
00:45:13.077 --> 00:45:13.619
Benjamin Park.
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:15.422
It's a brilliant history of the church.
00:45:16.284 --> 00:45:19.230
I think the best concise history of the church I've ever read.
00:45:19.269 --> 00:45:29.449
And it pointed out, it's something that I didn't realize, that up until really the early 20th century, the Relief Society was almost entirely autonomous.
00:45:30.081 --> 00:45:32.806
The Relief Society did not report to the first presidency.
00:45:32.846 --> 00:45:39.034
The Relief Society chose its own officers, had its own meetings, had its own agenda.
00:45:39.054 --> 00:45:39.956
And it wasn't until J.
00:45:39.996 --> 00:45:45.284
Reuben Clark in 1938 said the Relief Society needs to be a handmaid of the priesthood.
00:45:45.826 --> 00:45:46.987
Those were his exact words.
00:45:47.949 --> 00:45:52.135
That we get the Relief Society as it is now, which is really it is.
00:45:52.155 --> 00:45:53.496
It's a handmaid of the priesthood.
00:45:53.556 --> 00:45:55.519
The priesthood chooses the org.
00:45:56.101 --> 00:45:59.385
I mean, the Relief Society does not function with any degree of autonomy.
00:45:59.746 --> 00:46:01.047
compared to the way they did before.
00:46:01.969 --> 00:46:23.853
And plural marriage largely made that possible because women were able to sort of share householding with other women and so had more freedom to take on more leadership roles in these sort of plural arrangements.
00:46:24.449 --> 00:46:27.514
And the presidents of the Relief Society, Emmeline B.
00:46:27.534 --> 00:46:30.159
Wells, for instance, is probably the most famous one.
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:32.663
She was married to the plural wife of Daniel H.
00:46:32.682 --> 00:46:32.983
Wells.
00:46:34.005 --> 00:46:39.695
And she was a woman of considerable influence and power in the Utah Territory.
00:46:40.376 --> 00:46:44.922
And plural marriage gave her a little more autonomy to be able to do that.
00:46:46.306 --> 00:46:49.911
So the dynamics of polygamy are messy.
00:46:50.492 --> 00:46:51.293
They're difficult.
00:46:51.842 --> 00:47:14.956
And there's no way to reconcile it unless you can allow for the possibility that the Joseph Smith who lied to his wife, the Joseph Smith that entered into this messy, difficult practice whose legacy continues to haunt us today, is also the Joseph Smith that was chosen by the Lord to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ.
00:47:15.818 --> 00:47:19.563
And if you can't do that, then you end up having to leave the church.
00:47:19.824 --> 00:47:20.606
And a lot of people do.
00:47:21.474 --> 00:47:26.059
I have made that sort of reconciliation in my own mind.
00:47:28.141 --> 00:47:29.945
Does that hold any water with you?
00:47:29.965 --> 00:47:35.311
I mean, am I copping out by making that reconciliation?
00:47:35.351 --> 00:47:43.342
That's a question obviously for you.
00:47:44.063 --> 00:47:49.710
It's hard to, you know, you understand your thoughts and feelings about polygamy.
00:47:50.242 --> 00:47:52.403
You've reconciled it to an extent.
00:47:52.483 --> 00:47:54.106
You've acknowledged that, Joseph Smith.
00:47:54.385 --> 00:47:55.047
I mean, the two questions.
00:47:55.067 --> 00:47:55.688
Well, listen to you.
00:47:55.708 --> 00:47:56.648
I've got two questions for you.
00:47:57.809 --> 00:48:08.402
Is it true that Joseph put pressure on some women to marry him or have a relationship with him in return for extending blessings to that woman's parents?
00:48:08.442 --> 00:48:09.682
Because I've read that somewhere.
00:48:09.762 --> 00:48:10.063
Yes.
00:48:11.844 --> 00:48:12.746
Is that true?
00:48:13.206 --> 00:48:13.507
Yes.
00:48:14.688 --> 00:48:15.889
That, well...
00:48:16.353 --> 00:48:21.119
That is essentially the, not Fanny Alger, the Helen Mark Kimball story.
00:48:21.760 --> 00:48:21.880
Right.
00:48:22.001 --> 00:48:22.902
I thought so.
00:48:22.942 --> 00:48:36.438
It was criticized for brides, and it was actually Heber Kimball, Helen's father, who proposed the idea as a sort of dynastic ceiling.
00:48:36.539 --> 00:48:41.164
I think the evidence is fairly strong that this was not a sexual relationship.
00:48:41.985 --> 00:48:51.210
This was a dynastic ceiling that was going to give Heber Kimball and his family great blessings by being sealed to the prophet.
00:48:51.369 --> 00:49:14.143
And in fact, for generations, even after Joseph's death, the model was women were sealed to Joseph, to Brigham, even after Brigham's death, up until the manifesto, that the sealing to prophets, the law of adoption, as it was called, would give you great blessings in the afterlife.
00:49:14.184 --> 00:49:15.525
So yes, that is absolutely true.
00:49:16.193 --> 00:49:17.514
Yeah,
00:49:17.615 --> 00:49:49.101
I heard and I've read that he did put pressure on some women to have a physical relationship or some kind of spiritual marriage sealing slash physical relationship in return for extending or promising blessings to the woman's parents and also referencing or saying that there will be potential penalties or that the woman's parents or relatives could be at risk if she doesn't accept.
00:49:50.844 --> 00:49:57.452
The second question I've got, is it true that Joe Smith denied practicing polygamy at any time, publicly?
00:49:58.172 --> 00:50:02.699
Again, this is the way Richard Bushman describes it.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:04.141
I mean, the answer is yes.
00:50:04.961 --> 00:50:14.434
The way Richard Bushman describes it is they are carefully worded denials, which doesn't necessarily excuse anything.
00:50:15.266 --> 00:50:21.753
What it does is demonstrate, I think, that in Joseph's mind, he was justifying himself.
00:50:22.894 --> 00:50:34.289
I mean, if Joseph's purpose and intent with polygamy, again, was entirely sexual adventurism, there would be no need for carefully worded denials.
00:50:34.429 --> 00:50:37.253
There would just be the, no, I'm not doing this, forget it.
00:50:37.813 --> 00:50:38.813
I mean, you read them.
00:50:38.994 --> 00:50:45.498
He says things like, what a thing to be accused of I was having seven legal wives and I can only find one.
00:50:46.099 --> 00:50:46.940
Yes, I remember that
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:47.280
quote.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:51.907
Well, that's kind of true in that Emma is his only legal wife.
00:50:53.369 --> 00:50:56.532
And it's not even a denial that you have seven wives.
00:50:56.632 --> 00:50:57.733
It's just saying what a thing.
00:50:57.853 --> 00:51:09.869
I mean, this is the thing is that Joseph tried very hard to just, you can see, I think, the sort of mental gymnastics Joseph himself was doing.
00:51:10.753 --> 00:51:12.715
to try to justify it in his own mind.
00:51:13.858 --> 00:51:22.768
So he did not overtly, flatly deny polygamy so much as try to change the subject, try to pin it on John C.
00:51:22.809 --> 00:51:29.277
Bennett's spiritual wifery, which he insisted was not the same thing as plural marriage.
00:51:30.418 --> 00:51:33.242
But, I mean, the short answer to your question is yes, absolutely.
00:51:33.902 --> 00:51:39.050
The longer answer, I think, at least allows me to give Joseph a bit more grace.
00:51:39.777 --> 00:52:25.351
And my third question is, if we look at, you know, by all accounts, all reliable accounts, based on what we know, what the church has said, what it hasn't said, other reliable sources, Richard Bushman, the other materials that are out there on the church, including the website, is it safe and honest and reliable for us to surmise that, again, by the standards of the church, the definition of honesty and the logic behind that, that the church teaches very clearly, is it accurate, reliable to say that Joseph Smith actually lied about practicing polygamy and the relationships he had behind his wife's back?
00:52:27.594 --> 00:52:45.952
Yes, and it's also, I think, safe to say, to go even much further beyond that, to say that the church institutionally since the time of Joseph Smith, has not been honest about polygamy.
00:52:48.096 --> 00:52:53.503
Yeah, and again, I'm applying the same standards in Lesson 31, right?
00:52:54.545 --> 00:53:06.782
If we're going to use that lesson as it's intended, I think, partly to criticize the world and dishonesty out in the world, which is fair criticism, sure.
00:53:07.425 --> 00:53:11.291
we should apply that same standard and those same definitions to us.
00:53:11.711 --> 00:53:11.893
Yes?
00:53:12.954 --> 00:53:13.375
To the other.
00:53:13.795 --> 00:53:17.460
I mean, the only true church upon the face of the earth, right?
00:53:18.121 --> 00:53:22.367
We've talked about the role of the Holy Ghost briefly, you know, in teaching truth.
00:53:23.148 --> 00:53:29.378
Joseph Smith, it's clear, again, that he lied about polygamy.
00:53:29.557 --> 00:53:30.840
It was a complete mess.
00:53:32.563 --> 00:53:33.364
I agree with you.
00:53:33.483 --> 00:53:37.894
I think he set out maybe he didn't say this.
00:53:37.956 --> 00:53:43.204
I think he set out to create something, a movement, a religion.
00:53:43.224 --> 00:53:48.313
He had questions about himself, repentance.
00:53:48.713 --> 00:53:51.657
There's all this religious activity going on.
00:53:51.697 --> 00:53:53.460
He had his own spiritual experience.
00:53:53.561 --> 00:53:54.222
I believe that.
00:53:54.262 --> 00:53:59.050
I believe he prayed in a grove of trees.
00:53:59.110 --> 00:54:02.836
He had a, in his mind, a profound spiritual experience.
00:54:03.117 --> 00:54:12.744
Some vision in his mind, whether Christ or Heavenly Father appeared to him in person is, in my mind, up for question.
00:54:12.784 --> 00:54:15.286
But he had a profound spiritual experience.
00:54:16.307 --> 00:54:36.443
He took pieces of other aspects of the religious revival at the time, etc., had his own Christian upbringing with his parents, pieces there, created this organization, this church, Well, this organization looks very different now than when it did back then, by the way, as you know, right?
00:54:37.023 --> 00:54:39.987
This is a very different organization to when Joe Smith set this up.
00:54:40.266 --> 00:54:49.438
Nevertheless, he set this up, organization, he had some objectives, probably financial, spiritual for sure, political probably as well.
00:54:49.478 --> 00:54:51.860
He had political aspirations.
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:58.047
There was the sexual desire, I think, that existed in him.
00:54:58.067 --> 00:55:01.594
I can't, I don't, I'm not where you are.
00:55:01.635 --> 00:55:08.264
I believe there were other selfish objectives that Joseph had, certainly Brigham Young had.
00:55:09.204 --> 00:55:20.579
And I think he thought that the polygamy was one way, not the only way, but one way of achieving those selfish objectives.
00:55:20.619 --> 00:55:22.681
There were other objectives with polygamy, I get that.
00:55:23.202 --> 00:55:26.527
But I think there was definitely a selfish...
00:55:28.802 --> 00:55:42.121
gratification objective that he had in those thoughts that he had of how does he achieve that and polygamy he thought helped achieve that amongst other objectives for sure.
00:55:42.842 --> 00:55:45.065
The whole thing turned out to be a disaster.
00:55:45.085 --> 00:55:52.878
I mean that question bringing up somebody who's your father and they said you is just extraordinary.
00:55:53.298 --> 00:55:57.844
I think there's two more thoughts as we kind of roll this up here.
00:55:57.864 --> 00:56:09.168
I think This decision by the church to address this in the primary material is, again, broadly positive because it brings it to light.
00:56:09.487 --> 00:56:15.653
However, it's a missed opportunity to get into some of the detail, but therein lies the problem.
00:56:16.333 --> 00:56:22.340
Once you start getting into the detail, Jim, that's where the problems arise, and that's what generates more questions.
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:28.286
And so this is a limited window, and the reason why I say that is that the church...
00:56:29.186 --> 00:56:35.211
can only go so far on this with this audience, with these children.
00:56:36.012 --> 00:56:40.677
Because if it goes into too much detail, it generates confusion.
00:56:40.697 --> 00:56:48.405
I mean, the kids who are in traditional conventional families, you know, mom and dad, right?
00:56:49.025 --> 00:56:52.869
Siblings, that's the traditional model.
00:56:53.791 --> 00:56:57.014
To them, they'll find this just peculiar and odd.
00:56:58.338 --> 00:57:17.722
And then the other principle is the articles of faith, which talks about in point number 12, we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, and being in honoring and sustaining the law.
00:57:18.324 --> 00:57:30.865
Polygamy back then, plural marriage, having physical relationships, I don't think adultery was illegal, but having plural marriages back in the 1830s was illegal.
00:57:30.905 --> 00:57:49.284
And even more so when the authorities got more details of this, they really came down pretty hard on the church and actually forced the church, let's face it, forced the church to change its position on plural marriage, which it did.
00:57:50.264 --> 00:57:53.827
Privately, I think some, well, you've said this before, they were practicing plural marriage.
00:57:54.409 --> 00:58:04.016
Even now today, I believe the church still believes in plural marriage and actually practices plural marriage.
00:58:04.376 --> 00:58:07.521
Elder Oaks is married to Seald, the two women.
00:58:09.103 --> 00:58:14.909
And I think if the church could have its way and the law allowed it, the church would be practicing plural marriage today.
00:58:14.929 --> 00:58:26.289
Nevertheless, I think this is the best that the church can do to inoculate the children.
00:58:27.451 --> 00:58:29.273
What they've got here, it's the best.
00:58:29.474 --> 00:58:32.719
I mean, great minds will have poured over this.
00:58:33.701 --> 00:58:37.367
Every word, every sentence, every line.
00:58:37.967 --> 00:58:44.318
They'll have thought about this for two years before they put this together and put this out.
00:58:44.958 --> 00:58:46.822
And I agree with them.
00:58:46.882 --> 00:58:48.585
This is a strategic move.
00:58:49.106 --> 00:58:58.121
This is the best they can do given the complexity of and the darkness, and keeping in mind the pain and suffering, Jim, that these wives like Emma will have gone through.
00:58:58.161 --> 00:59:04.751
Let's not forget that, in my opinion, they were victims of this awful dishonesty.
00:59:05.331 --> 00:59:10.159
And we've said, I asked the question earlier, trying to ask it in a very balanced way, was George Smith honest about it?
00:59:10.179 --> 00:59:10.820
Did he lie about this?
00:59:11.601 --> 00:59:12.922
He lied about this.
00:59:13.963 --> 00:59:17.989
And it caused immense pain and suffering for these women.
00:59:19.202 --> 00:59:24.208
And we must highlight that because these lives were broken, they were damaged.
00:59:24.889 --> 00:59:36.021
Can you imagine how they felt, the tears and the heartbreak, having found out that the husband has been having these relationships and not told them?
00:59:36.523 --> 00:59:42.851
Why on earth didn't he just tell them about this revelation and say, hey, look, this is the situation.
00:59:42.990 --> 00:59:48.677
I want to involve you in the conversation and where's the respect for Emma?
00:59:50.114 --> 00:59:51.516
Zero respect.
00:59:52.458 --> 00:59:54.481
And is that the quality of a prophet?
00:59:55.722 --> 00:59:58.447
I mean, we're talking basic, but you're talking about infallibility.
00:59:58.487 --> 01:00:08.682
I'm talking about the basics of human decency, honesty with your wife, with your family members.
01:00:09.585 --> 01:00:14.052
And if you haven't got that, are you really a prophet of God?
01:00:14.092 --> 01:00:20.532
And the other thing as well, if this is an eternal principle, And God's laws are higher than men's laws.
01:00:22.074 --> 01:00:24.898
Has God acquiesced?
01:00:24.938 --> 01:00:27.019
Has he given in to man-made laws?
01:00:27.681 --> 01:00:50.501
If this is such an eternal principle in section 132, a principle that we need to practice in order to achieve the highest level of eternal life, polygamy, again, there's lots of doctrines and references on that, that we achieve that level of eternal life and be with the Heavenly Father if we except the fullness of the gospel.
01:00:50.981 --> 01:00:55.809
Presumably plural marriage is an important part of the fullness of the gospel.
01:00:56.309 --> 01:01:00.655
Why has God given in to man-made laws?
01:01:01.737 --> 01:01:04.221
Aren't God's laws higher than ours?
01:01:04.922 --> 01:01:06.885
I mean, that's another conversation.
01:01:07.286 --> 01:01:09.268
But the problem I've got with this is it's not...
01:01:11.112 --> 01:01:15.458
It's deliberately missing out important information.
01:01:15.498 --> 01:01:17.981
Then again, the church...
01:01:18.242 --> 01:01:57.507
can't get into that detail and I understand that I get that but it's not honest it's deliberately say missing really important information now the kids aren't stupid you know there's some smart kids out there the youth are smart they'll look at this they'll research it will it inoculate them some of them for sure but Just as a closing experience here, when I was set apart on a state presidency, going back a bit now, this was at the Mitt Romney.
01:01:57.567 --> 01:01:58.307
Was it 2010?
01:01:58.427 --> 01:01:59.128
I think it was.
01:02:00.710 --> 01:02:02.572
Well, Mitt Romney was the nominee in 2012.
01:02:02.592 --> 01:02:03.494
2012.
01:02:04.094 --> 01:02:04.434
Okay.
01:02:05.476 --> 01:02:23.443
So 2012, it was, I remember leaders in British Columbia, church leaders, senior leaders, area authority 70s, talking about a new initiative that Elder Oaks was behind that he introduced in our stake.
01:02:24.204 --> 01:02:26.927
He called it hastening the work.
01:02:28.228 --> 01:02:30.811
There was no question that the work is true.
01:02:31.090 --> 01:02:32.132
The cause was great.
01:02:32.753 --> 01:02:38.577
Our focus now was hastening it, advancing it, and accelerating it with the words.
01:02:39.679 --> 01:02:40.519
We've got the truth.
01:02:40.820 --> 01:02:41.701
We've got the gospel.
01:02:42.362 --> 01:02:43.882
We've got this amazing organization.
01:02:43.922 --> 01:02:46.525
The foundation is there.
01:02:47.074 --> 01:02:48.076
How do we scale it?
01:02:48.536 --> 01:02:49.217
That was the message.
01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:56.989
And how do we scale it in 2012 at what they call the Mormon moment, which was the Mitt Romney component.
01:02:57.650 --> 01:03:04.981
And they talked about, and I've got it here, they talked about bringing the church out of obscurity.
01:03:05.121 --> 01:03:17.507
Another lesson that Neely Maxwell talked about where the Lord in the Doctrine and Covenants He says, among other things, the past obscurity of the church is giving away to visibility.
01:03:18.248 --> 01:03:19.349
Obscurity, do you notice that?
01:03:19.409 --> 01:03:22.634
Which is generally unknown and withdrawn from the centers of activity.
01:03:23.195 --> 01:03:25.418
Hence, the obscure is often misunderstood.
01:03:25.438 --> 01:03:30.083
It's nearly Maxwell's talk titled Out of Obscurity.
01:03:30.525 --> 01:03:37.655
The Lord describes how he will bring his latter-day work, quote, forth out of obscurity and out of darkness.
01:03:38.275 --> 01:03:47.884
These were the scriptures that were shared with us as a new presidency in when Mitt Romney was running for the US presidency, it was the Marvin moment.
01:03:48.625 --> 01:03:50.547
We were accelerating and advancing the work.
01:03:51.208 --> 01:03:53.231
We were, quote, hastening the work.
01:03:53.871 --> 01:03:55.333
Elder Oaks was behind it.
01:03:55.373 --> 01:03:58.958
The internet was a tool to be able to advance the work.
01:03:59.659 --> 01:04:09.614
And now I think all this out of obscurity has not entirely backfired, but they've got...
01:04:10.402 --> 01:04:17.349
The church has got this big problem now with all this material on the internet, the internet that has been a major problem for the church.
01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:22.394
And the youth and the primary, certainly the youth, will go online.
01:04:22.795 --> 01:04:23.657
They will research it.
01:04:23.737 --> 01:04:26.519
They'll come across this podcast, many, many of the podcasts.
01:04:27.061 --> 01:04:28.121
They'll dig into the details.
01:04:28.382 --> 01:04:30.043
Actually, I think I'm wrong.
01:04:30.063 --> 01:04:31.244
I think I'm wrong.
01:04:31.284 --> 01:04:33.086
They probably won't do that.
01:04:33.768 --> 01:04:35.028
They're probably not going to do that.
01:04:35.048 --> 01:04:39.074
It's going to your point about whether they want religion in their life or not.
01:04:40.226 --> 01:04:50.882
But if they do research this and investigate this, and some will, they will find the dark side, if you like, of polygamy.
01:04:50.922 --> 01:04:59.916
And there is a deep, dark underbelly of polygamy that destroyed many lives and disrupted many lives.
01:05:00.597 --> 01:05:05.304
And the discerning youth, if you like, will discover this.
01:05:06.065 --> 01:05:09.309
And they will see that this material exists.
01:05:09.697 --> 01:05:10.199
Missed it.
01:05:11.039 --> 01:05:14.184
Because this material will be evidence also.
01:05:14.786 --> 01:05:18.130
Yes, evidence that the church has tried to address it.
01:05:18.692 --> 01:05:31.132
You know, if we fast forward now 20 years, and this is still around on the internet, this children material, we'll see the church will use that and say, hey, we talked about this 20 years ago.
01:05:31.172 --> 01:05:31.632
It's not new.
01:05:31.672 --> 01:05:33.675
This is old stuff.
01:05:34.115 --> 01:05:37.601
But on the other side, you can argue, well, let's look at it.
01:05:38.338 --> 01:05:41.780
They will have the same conversation that you and I are having right now.
01:05:42.862 --> 01:05:45.565
They say, well, you missed this, and you missed that, and you missed that.
01:05:45.585 --> 01:06:18.737
And there's probably other stuff 20 years from now that will come to light that we don't know about right now in regards to polygamy, which is a big issue, a constant, big, major, major problem that has never disappeared, ever-present, and always been one of the major issues impacting people the ability of the church to advance and accelerate and scale this tiny, tiny church, the only true church in the tiny, tiny church in the context of the global population.
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:20.900
Right?
01:06:20.920 --> 01:06:24.103
So, yes, broadly, it's a good move.
01:06:24.264 --> 01:06:26.786
To summarize my thoughts here, a good move.
01:06:28.208 --> 01:06:36.617
Yes, it brings the big, one of the big issues, raising the priesthood of the one, you know, there's other big ones, but this is probably the biggest one of them for sure.
01:06:37.057 --> 01:06:40.903
It brings it to the surface here in front of the children.
01:06:41.744 --> 01:06:44.047
It is designed to inoculate the kids.
01:06:44.909 --> 01:06:55.525
I think it will be used against the church like we're doing right now in criticizing the church for not being completely open and honest about the details behind this.
01:06:56.365 --> 01:07:04.338
And I think the church, Jim, will continue to struggle and wrestle with polygamy for decades.
01:07:05.121 --> 01:07:07.505
It's going to be a problem for decades.
01:07:08.505 --> 01:07:09.827
People will not accept it.
01:07:10.148 --> 01:07:26.184
And I think the church has to, at some point, and I'll finish on this, accept that, like racing the priesthood, prohibiting black people from having temple blessings and having the priesthood, that it was a downright mistake.
01:07:27.447 --> 01:07:30.670
Now, the church is not ready to say that, as blunt as that.
01:07:31.090 --> 01:07:44.460
But I predict, if I can put my prophet hat on here, I think in the next five to 10 years, I think the church will come out in some way and say, polygamy was a mistake.
01:07:45.581 --> 01:07:48.045
And somehow, some way, it will disavow it.
01:07:49.065 --> 01:07:57.257
It's disavowed, in the Race and the Priesthood essay, disavowed any behavior of individuals who were racist in the church.
01:07:57.737 --> 01:07:58.920
Don't make specific references.
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:16.587
Where I believe there'll be further material coming out to disavow the church from this awful practice of polygamy that destroyed so many lives and impacted so many.
01:08:17.368 --> 01:08:19.210
So yeah, they're my thoughts.
01:08:19.671 --> 01:08:21.873
Any concluding thoughts from your end?
01:08:23.957 --> 01:08:26.359
Yeah, I appreciate your concluding thoughts.
01:08:27.041 --> 01:08:33.689
I don't share the, what's the word I'm looking for?
01:08:35.010 --> 01:08:36.752
Well, let me just back up.
01:08:38.614 --> 01:08:50.390
There is no question that polygamy looms large in the public imagination, and it continues to haunt the church to this day.
01:08:50.449 --> 01:08:51.832
And you are correct.
01:08:51.992 --> 01:08:55.957
To some degree, it is still practiced in the church to this day.
01:08:56.918 --> 01:09:45.103
Carolyn Pearson wrote a beautiful, heartbreaking book about a few years back called The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, where she talks about the fact that it's a mistake to think of polygamy as a historical mistake, that we need to think of polygamy as a current and enduring mistake, because women in the church are haunted by the idea that if they were to die as President Nelson and President Oaks' wives died, first wives died, that their husbands will be free to be sealed to another woman and that they will be expected to share their husband with that woman in the next life.
01:09:47.627 --> 01:09:52.898
My uncle, his wife died.
01:09:52.917 --> 01:09:55.002
He remarried one of her best friends.
01:09:55.713 --> 01:10:01.739
And the conversation was all about, oh, it'll be great because Aunt Theda will love Betty.
01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.422
And they were already friends, so this won't be a problem.
01:10:05.182 --> 01:10:11.509
Betty ended up dying, and my Uncle Wally ended up marrying a third woman who was already sealed to somebody else.
01:10:12.449 --> 01:10:15.814
And he tried to get sealed to her after she died.
01:10:15.854 --> 01:10:20.297
And the church told him no, because she was already sealed to her first husband.
01:10:20.377 --> 01:10:22.940
So, you know, this is still with us.
01:10:23.081 --> 01:10:24.162
This is not...
01:10:24.801 --> 01:10:26.884
Just a historical relic.
01:10:29.327 --> 01:10:37.695
I want to return, however, to where we began, which is with this article and my statement that this article is a good thing.
01:10:39.018 --> 01:10:45.945
Because for all of the flaws in it, I mean, you pointed out where it hasn't been entirely honest.
01:10:46.086 --> 01:10:50.970
I pointed out where it hasn't been entirely honest, where it's leaving out really important information.
01:10:51.811 --> 01:10:53.253
For all of its weaknesses...
01:10:54.177 --> 01:11:09.100
for all of the problems that we have wrestling with, confronting the legacy of this practice, this is the church moving in the right direction.
01:11:10.101 --> 01:11:25.877
This is the church moving towards the kind of honesty, the kind of transparency that we demand from it, and that the church has taught us needs to be a part of our own individual lives.
01:11:26.738 --> 01:11:35.350
The church of my childhood would not have even dreamed of anything like this.
01:11:36.693 --> 01:11:49.649
And the church even of my young adulthood was excommunicating in the September 6th in 1994, excommunicating D.
01:11:49.710 --> 01:11:55.139
Michael Quinn for pointing out that the church continued to practice polygamy after the manifesto.
01:11:55.259 --> 01:12:00.086
It's not that Michael Quinn did anything that was contrary to the principles of the church.
01:12:00.185 --> 01:12:11.061
It was that Michael Quinn told the truth and the church, particularly Elder Packer, wasn't having it and just did not want the truth to be out there.
01:12:11.342 --> 01:12:19.399
And so the church of 1994 was a church that would have said, We just don't talk about this.
01:12:19.479 --> 01:12:20.761
This just didn't happen.
01:12:21.162 --> 01:12:22.805
We're just not going to acknowledge it.
01:12:23.466 --> 01:12:36.864
The Church of 2024 or 2025, we were recording this in the new year, and this is going to be introduced to children in this year.
01:12:36.904 --> 01:12:55.050
The Church of 2025 has come far enough that not only are we willing to acknowledge the reality of polygamy, in the Gospel Topics Essays and in the Joseph Smith Papers Project, where all of the documents about polygamy are being made public.
01:12:55.610 --> 01:13:12.177
I mean, the church has done so many good things in terms of moving towards transparency that they're now even willing to acknowledge this with our youngest and most vulnerable members.
01:13:12.297 --> 01:13:14.561
Now, have they done a good job in that?
01:13:14.702 --> 01:13:16.885
I mean, I think it's a half measure.
01:13:16.904 --> 01:13:25.877
I think there's actually part, this tells more than I thought the church would, but doesn't tell nearly enough to be able to say it's fully honest.
01:13:26.838 --> 01:13:29.502
So yeah, we can talk about that.
01:13:29.542 --> 01:13:42.596
I want to embrace and applaud the church's efforts To move towards the transparency that it has no choice but to provide, I think.
01:13:42.877 --> 01:13:45.042
I mean, I think there are still leaders in the church.
01:13:45.882 --> 01:13:56.746
I believe there are really—the fact that this exists, that this thing exists, it's, I believe, the product of a great deal of behind-the-scenes tension, I am sure.
01:13:57.314 --> 01:13:59.716
that there were brethren who said, you can't do this.
01:13:59.837 --> 01:14:00.717
We can't do this.
01:14:01.099 --> 01:14:03.041
You can't put this in the primary manual.
01:14:03.481 --> 01:14:07.947
And there were other brethren who said, not only can we do this, we should go further than this.
01:14:08.648 --> 01:14:11.992
And then what eventually ended up was some kind of a compromise.
01:14:13.554 --> 01:14:23.626
But there are still leaders in the church who think we have a choice, who think we can still sort of sweep polygamy under the rug.
01:14:23.966 --> 01:14:26.189
We can still sort of pretend it doesn't exist.
01:14:27.073 --> 01:14:37.666
And they're the ones, I think, that are in the way of the kind of transparency and honesty and accountability that the church needs to take for plural marriage.
01:14:38.587 --> 01:14:45.594
If there is a good side to plural marriage, and I think that argument can be made that there is a good side to it.
01:14:46.114 --> 01:15:05.597
I mean, I think the autonomy of the Relief Society in the early 20th century, in the late 19th century, I mean, I think that there are stories that can be told that can make plural marriage less of the absolute disaster it appears to be to most people who look at it.
01:15:06.538 --> 01:15:11.164
But you can't tell those stories unless you tell all the stories.
01:15:11.765 --> 01:15:26.045
You can't make an argument that polygamy wasn't that bad if you don't address the arguments that it was, if you don't address the realities and the heartbreak, if you don't address...
01:15:26.626 --> 01:15:39.945
The dynamic between Joseph and Emma that split the church and that created the community of Christ, which for a century or so refused to acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:15:41.387 --> 01:15:50.782
Until you address all of the truth, you cannot highlight the truth that makes the church look good.
01:15:51.681 --> 01:15:58.529
And so the church is in a position where really it has no choice but to address polygamy.
01:15:59.291 --> 01:16:11.125
And this is its first sort of, not first, but first with children, one of the first sort of halting efforts to do that, to be transparent.
01:16:11.865 --> 01:16:14.069
And it's not entirely successful.
01:16:14.208 --> 01:16:17.632
I don't think the Gospel Topics essays were entirely successful.
01:16:18.134 --> 01:16:21.157
I think they were half measures, and half measures never satisfy anybody.
01:16:21.793 --> 01:16:23.855
But it's a step in the right direction.
01:16:23.895 --> 01:16:26.097
We're going the right way.
01:16:26.859 --> 01:16:34.947
If the church has a future, it's a future that has to somehow come to terms with the legacy of plural marriage.
01:16:35.408 --> 01:16:58.559
If there is a way to do that, if there is a way to reconcile all the goodness of the restored gospel with all of the messiness of plural marriage and how Joseph Smith is at the heart and the center of both of those things, If there is a way to reconcile that, we won't be able to find it until we are fully honest and we are fully transparent.
01:16:59.118 --> 01:17:08.328
And so I want to conclude this episode by applauding the church, applauding the church for taking steps in the right direction.
01:17:08.387 --> 01:17:10.210
We've got a whole lot.
01:17:10.871 --> 01:17:13.292
I mean, I say you to the church, but I'm in the church.
01:17:13.573 --> 01:17:14.354
This is my church.
01:17:14.694 --> 01:17:18.137
We as a church have a long way to go.
01:17:18.753 --> 01:17:20.617
We have a whole lot more we have to do.
01:17:21.417 --> 01:17:25.585
But when we go in the right direction, I think that should be applauded.
01:17:26.125 --> 01:17:35.319
And hopefully that will encourage the church to continue to move in that direction and get to where we need to be.
01:17:36.502 --> 01:17:37.863
So those are my final thoughts.
01:17:39.386 --> 01:17:40.927
Any rebuttal?
01:17:42.466 --> 01:17:43.608
No, no, Rupert.
01:17:43.627 --> 01:17:44.911
I thought it was really good.
01:17:46.153 --> 01:17:48.337
You know, we have a balanced approach on the podcast.
01:17:48.377 --> 01:17:50.260
You've got your side, I've got mine.
01:17:50.820 --> 01:17:52.423
A lot of stuff we agree, some things we don't.
01:17:52.463 --> 01:17:56.070
And I think that that yin-yang balance is just really healthy, really good.
01:17:56.391 --> 01:17:57.172
I'll say one last thing.
01:17:57.554 --> 01:17:59.877
The polygamy issue will never go away.
01:17:59.917 --> 01:18:01.461
It's part of the church history.
01:18:01.942 --> 01:18:02.502
It happened.
01:18:03.845 --> 01:18:04.627
We can't deny it.
01:18:05.347 --> 01:18:05.988
It was a mess.
01:18:06.913 --> 01:18:09.497
I don't know anything good came from it.
01:18:09.618 --> 01:18:10.338
I can't think of that.
01:18:10.399 --> 01:18:14.243
We won't get into that right now, but it will never go away.
01:18:14.283 --> 01:18:17.868
And somehow the church has to come to terms with it.
01:18:18.470 --> 01:18:19.371
Yes, I agree.
01:18:19.390 --> 01:18:20.512
It's a step in the right move.
01:18:21.293 --> 01:18:24.257
And I appreciate you highlighting that.
01:18:24.297 --> 01:18:27.141
That's an important point, I think, to finish on.
01:18:27.202 --> 01:18:29.805
So that was my final, final comment.
01:18:30.529 --> 01:18:31.131
All right.
01:18:31.490 --> 01:18:34.895
Well, that concludes this episode then.
01:18:34.916 --> 01:18:40.082
I hope it doesn't conclude the church's efforts to be transparent and accountable for plural marriage.
01:18:41.203 --> 01:18:47.752
But we will be here throughout the coming new year to be able to discuss these sorts of things.
01:18:47.912 --> 01:18:52.298
And Ian, I'm very, very grateful that you are my partner in crime in this.
01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:55.863
And I can't think of anybody I would rather be discussing this with than with you.
01:18:55.904 --> 01:18:55.944
So...
01:18:58.050 --> 01:19:07.823
And I want very much our listeners to know how grateful both of us are that you are joining us in this journey and that we can have these conversations with you.
01:19:07.863 --> 01:19:15.233
And we look forward very much to talking with you next week on the next episode of Inside Out.
01:19:15.934 --> 01:19:16.935
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:19:17.756 --> 01:19:18.237
Thank you, Jim.
