An Ancient Technique For Helping Grief with Dr. Irene Blinston | EP 488

WEBVTT
00:01:15.609 --> 00:01:17.409
Close your eyes and imagine.
00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:24.829
What if the things in life that caused us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges.
00:01:26.510 --> 00:01:31.469
Challenges designed to help us grow to ultimately become what we were always meant to be.
00:01:32.370 --> 00:01:37.490
We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted?
00:01:38.629 --> 00:01:42.049
And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree.
00:01:43.129 --> 00:01:45.250
Now, open your eyes.
00:01:45.969 --> 00:01:47.750
Open your eyes to this way of viewing life.
00:01:48.629 --> 00:01:52.969
Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature.
00:01:54.150 --> 00:01:58.230
This is Grief to Growth, and I am your host, Brian Smith.
00:02:00.210 --> 00:02:01.590
Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth.
00:02:01.730 --> 00:02:07.469
I'm Brian Smith, and whether this is your first time joining us, or you've been walking this road with me for a while, I'm so glad that you're here.
00:02:08.110 --> 00:02:15.170
The show exists because grief changes everything, and most of what we're taught about, most of what we're taught about it just isn't enough.
00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:21.349
We talk about loss, love that doesn't die, and the possibility that people we've lost aren't as far as the way they seem.
00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:26.810
I bring on guests who are doing the real work that kind of goes deeper than the five stages in the pamphlet.
00:02:27.710 --> 00:02:36.829
Dr. Irene Blintstone is a transpersonal psychologist, an independent researcher, and one of the rare voices of mental health who takes the sacred seriously as science.
00:02:37.490 --> 00:02:41.389
For over two decades, she's been exploring the territory most psychologists won't touch.
00:02:41.389 --> 00:02:47.469
Mystical experiences altered states, and what happens when the veil between the living and the dead grows thin.
00:02:48.090 --> 00:03:03.569
She holds a PhD in transpersonal psychology, and her research has taken her from studying children who witnessed sacred apparitions to the ancient practice of mirror gazing, a ritual used in the ancient world that she's helping to bring back to life as a grief healing tool.
00:03:04.250 --> 00:03:14.530
Her book Gazing into the Afterlife explores a psychomantium, a practice so old and so quietly powerful that most of the modern world's forgotten about it and forgotten it even existed.
00:03:15.290 --> 00:03:19.370
In this conversation, we're going to go somewhere most grief conversations never go.
00:03:19.769 --> 00:03:27.069
We're going to talk about what happens with ancient wisdom and modern psychology, stop arguing with each other, and start working together.
00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:35.750
When the ritual of sitting in darkness with a mirror becomes a doorway, when grief becomes not something just to survive, but a portal to whom you're becoming.
00:03:36.229 --> 00:03:43.669
So if you've ever felt the presence of someone you've lost and had no language for it, no framework that made room for it, this one's for you.
00:03:44.270 --> 00:03:51.469
If the thought of just moving on has felt like a betrayal, like continuing to love the person you lost makes you somehow broken in the eyes of the world.
00:03:51.810 --> 00:03:53.090
I want you to stay with this.
00:03:53.590 --> 00:04:05.449
And if you want to continue the conversation after the episode, head over to GriefForGrowth.com and you'll find an article about today's discussion where you can comment and connect with me and other listeners.
00:04:06.229 --> 00:04:07.009
So let's get started.
00:04:07.210 --> 00:04:08.789
Let's welcome Irene Bunston.
00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:15.419
I'm glad to have you, Dr. Bunston.
00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:21.580
One of the things before we get started, just so people understand, you're a transpersonal psychologist.
00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:23.680
And some people may not know what that is.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:26.399
Could you explain to people what a transpersonal psychologist is?
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:35.220
Well, transpersonal psychology is we cover all the conventional psychology information and all the teaching.
00:04:35.779 --> 00:04:37.539
But we go beyond that.
00:04:38.100 --> 00:04:54.080
So we study spiritual traditions and a lot of what conventional psychology might consider psychosis or psychotic episodes are looked at in other spiritual traditions as normal.
00:04:54.840 --> 00:04:56.519
It's a spiritual experience.
00:04:57.279 --> 00:05:01.800
So we looked at a lot of religious traditions and spiritual traditions.
00:05:02.189 --> 00:05:04.600
We also looked at parapsychology.
00:05:05.060 --> 00:05:15.139
We looked at altered states of consciousness and even looked at the consideration of the continuation of consciousness or survival of consciousness after death.
00:05:16.060 --> 00:05:21.519
So we go into all of what might be considered woo woo areas in conventional psychology.
00:05:22.039 --> 00:05:29.139
But I think it's really important because especially for today, there's people who are there on their own spiritual journey.
00:05:29.779 --> 00:05:43.360
And we have to look at their situation as part of their normal being or treated in such a way that we don't automatically go into a diagnosis of psychosis or something abnormal.
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.080
Yeah, I got to tell you, I absolutely love that.
00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.379
And I've only spoken with one of the persons, a trans transpersonal psychologist before.
00:05:52.500 --> 00:05:54.679
Personally, I believe everybody should be transpersonal.
00:05:55.299 --> 00:05:57.700
I was going to say every mental health professional should be transpersonal.
00:05:57.700 --> 00:06:09.179
I think every health professional should be transpersonal because it's treating the whole person and it's understanding that we are not just our bodies and not just chemical reactions, but we have a spiritual component as well.
00:06:09.700 --> 00:06:11.820
That is absolutely correct.
00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:23.720
Yeah, I never thought about it that everybody, you know, all mental or not just mental, but practitioners, whether in the physical health area or the mental health area.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:33.340
But that's something that, you know, our research, hopefully, it's not always easy because we have to fund our own research most of the time.
00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:53.039
But when we can get our research out there, you know, to show empirically that these things happen and people are really okay, they just need to be treated or handled in a different way that honors whatever their tradition is or their belief system is.
00:06:54.019 --> 00:06:55.860
So that's actually a good idea.
00:06:56.980 --> 00:06:58.799
Yeah, my daughter is a mental health professional.
00:06:58.799 --> 00:07:00.039
She's a mental health counselor.
00:07:00.500 --> 00:07:06.159
And when she was going through school, and my daughter is also very intuitive in the spiritual side of things.
00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.940
And when she was going through school, of course, they said, you know, none of that, none of that's allowed.
00:07:11.620 --> 00:07:14.139
And we can't talk about those things.
00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:25.200
And, you know, even, you know, the fact is that people consciousness, I mean, we're finding out the consciousness has so much role in mental and physical health, even.
00:07:25.879 --> 00:07:28.659
And then, you know, then they said, well, we don't know what consciousness is.
00:07:28.779 --> 00:07:29.720
So let's just put that aside.
00:07:29.899 --> 00:07:31.299
We'll just we'll just treat the body.
00:07:31.659 --> 00:07:31.980
Right.
00:07:33.019 --> 00:07:33.120
Right.
00:07:33.159 --> 00:07:33.559
Exactly.
00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:35.279
That's exactly right.
00:07:36.100 --> 00:07:43.539
And I mean, it is well, we have to go into looking at hard science and the materialistic perspective.
00:07:44.139 --> 00:07:52.539
And reductionism, because if it can't be measured or reproduced, then it doesn't exist.
00:07:53.700 --> 00:07:56.279
And that's where the difficulty comes in.
00:07:57.100 --> 00:08:11.759
And even when some really serious psi research, parapsychology type research was conducted, I mean, and really serious analysis that was quantitative, it was still ignored.
00:08:12.539 --> 00:08:16.659
And so there is a really and I think it still exists.
00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:23.240
But I don't know if you're familiar with a professor from Davis, Charles Tarte.
00:08:24.139 --> 00:08:27.440
Yeah, he was one of my professors.
00:08:28.200 --> 00:08:29.500
I absolutely loved him.
00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:42.299
He, you know, he did a lot of really deep research where he did some really serious analysis and he covered all the bases to be accepted.
00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:43.899
And they still ignored.
00:08:44.460 --> 00:08:57.139
They still ignored his research, trying to get it published into like, professional journals that were in auspices of more of the hard sciences.
00:08:58.019 --> 00:08:58.980
It was ignored.
00:08:59.879 --> 00:09:08.019
And so that's why I have to say I remember when I was in school, I actually was going to have Charlie Tarte on my committee for my dissertation.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:10.419
And he wouldn't be on it.
00:09:11.080 --> 00:09:23.019
And he told me he told me that and he presumed I wanted to be an academic and be like a lecturer and try to go for a tenure position as a professor, which was not in my ballpark.
00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:26.919
But he was telling me that I would never be accepted.
00:09:27.460 --> 00:09:32.299
And that he was going to try and encourage he was encouraging me to think of something else to study.
00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:38.500
And this is when I was doing the study of the religious apparitions that were experienced in childhood.
00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:44.559
And to show my thing was to show that they had an effect on people.
00:09:45.320 --> 00:09:48.759
And it's the same, I think that it's a spiritual experience regardless.
00:09:49.458 --> 00:09:55.799
And we see this also in the psychomantium, or at least in my experience as a facilitator during the research.
00:09:56.419 --> 00:09:58.100
I saw people transform.
00:09:58.959 --> 00:10:00.799
But how do you explain it?
00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:03.639
I mean, we did analyses.
00:10:03.939 --> 00:10:08.000
We did both quantitative and qualitative analysis on the data.
00:10:08.939 --> 00:10:11.500
And that's why I wrote this book.
00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:17.139
I was actually asked to write the book Gazing into the Afterlife by the director of the research unit.
00:10:17.319 --> 00:10:18.019
He passed away.
00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:27.100
And when he was on his deathbed, he was asked me to write the book myself and another cohort mate in the research.
00:10:27.559 --> 00:10:29.819
Only she was not really available to do it.
00:10:29.819 --> 00:10:32.379
So finally, I wrote it myself.
00:10:33.179 --> 00:10:35.699
But it's getting it out there.
00:10:36.339 --> 00:10:39.419
This is really like, I get on a soapbox kind of.
00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:40.059
Sorry.
00:10:43.319 --> 00:10:49.079
We are denying ourselves our ability to learn our potential.
00:10:50.419 --> 00:10:52.959
And to get it out among the people.
00:10:53.500 --> 00:10:59.579
Like for me, I mean, granted, it's like, it's really nice and prestigious to get an article accepted in a professional journal.
00:11:00.459 --> 00:11:05.919
But my concern when I was going through school is I want the general public to know about this.
00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:08.720
So I wanted to write my books.
00:11:08.939 --> 00:11:12.860
And, you know, I wrote articles for journals, because that's kind of expected.
00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:24.500
But I wanted to write books that the general public could read to show that what they have experienced has been researched.
00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:25.819
Yeah.
00:11:26.779 --> 00:11:29.759
And I got to I work with Dr. Gary Schwartz, who's been working on.
00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:32.699
Soul phone project for quite a while.
00:11:32.939 --> 00:11:39.039
And Gary's been doing all kinds of cutting edge research for, I guess, 25 years or more now.
00:11:39.779 --> 00:11:46.339
One of the first books I read when I started studying the afterlife was the Afterlife Experiments, where he brought in mediums and did controlled experiments.
00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.360
And the thing is, people don't know that this research even exists.
00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.399
As you said, once once it's done, then the thing is getting it published.
00:11:54.980 --> 00:11:57.600
And I've done some research myself into the research.
00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:08.779
And that the things that materialists will come up with to explain these side phenomena, which have been well documented, because their their mentality is it's impossible.
00:12:09.459 --> 00:12:10.919
Therefore, we have to explain it away.
00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:12.379
Right.
00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:13.019
Yeah.
00:12:13.419 --> 00:12:14.019
Yeah, I get it.
00:12:14.199 --> 00:12:15.899
I think about that.
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:21.100
It's like, uh, scientism that I mean, it's its own religion.
00:12:21.299 --> 00:12:21.779
It is.
00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:22.600
Yeah.
00:12:23.019 --> 00:12:24.139
And it's dogma.
00:12:25.039 --> 00:12:25.659
I mean, yeah.
00:12:25.659 --> 00:12:29.519
And it's really important for people to understand that.
00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:36.860
Because what the materialists or the scientism people will try to convince us of is, this is the real point of view.
00:12:37.259 --> 00:12:38.899
There's other people are woowoo.
00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:39.500
Yes.
00:12:40.159 --> 00:12:43.899
And this, because we can't explain this, therefore, it's impossible.
00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:48.079
And that's that is itself a dogma.
00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:49.579
That is itself a point of view.
00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:50.240
Right.
00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:50.860
Exactly.
00:12:51.379 --> 00:12:55.379
And it's they, they're, it's, it really is.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:00.279
I don't want to use the brainwash, but it's akin to that.
00:13:00.819 --> 00:13:07.639
You know, and, and they're, when they're in school, that's why I loved going to the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology.
00:13:08.600 --> 00:13:10.819
We didn't have any barriers put on us.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:14.839
And, but when they're in school, this is what's pounded into them.
00:13:15.379 --> 00:13:15.480
Yes.
00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:17.439
And even in medical school, too.
00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.179
Absolutely.
00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:21.779
It's like, this is, you know, this is the way you treat these things.
00:13:21.959 --> 00:13:22.899
This is what you do.
00:13:23.259 --> 00:13:32.600
But truly behind all of that is the funding for the research, who's paying for it, you know, who's, you know, who's supplying the funds for that.
00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:34.759
So it can get kind of corrupt.
00:13:35.379 --> 00:13:46.579
And that's where you really have to know how to discern what you're reading when you're reading articles and journals, you know, to find out what you like, first and foremost, who funded this research.
00:13:47.139 --> 00:14:04.019
But in the case of anything that is woowoo, what they might consider woowoo, I think it's really important that we be, you know, that we're able to get this out and that we be in a space of, I'm not afraid.
00:14:04.899 --> 00:14:11.159
If I get talked down to or rejected, and that's kind of where I come from.
00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:19.819
Several students at the school when I, after I graduated, they brought me in to do speaking to some of the classes at the Institute.
00:14:20.779 --> 00:14:23.759
And there was one student goes, how can you do that, though?
00:14:24.899 --> 00:14:26.519
Because no one's going to believe you.
00:14:26.579 --> 00:14:27.899
You're never going to get published.
00:14:28.139 --> 00:14:35.259
You're never going to get, you know, and I thought, oh, my God, the fear is already, you know, it's embedded in them.
00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:37.299
And I just said, I don't care.
00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:41.000
If they want to reject me, that's okay.
00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:43.539
Well, I just need to get the information out there.
00:14:43.539 --> 00:14:50.439
I have to tell you, I'm really grateful for people like yourself who are willing to put themselves out there, people like Gary and others.
00:14:50.759 --> 00:15:01.259
There are others who have put themselves out there and, you know, get criticized and can really, you know, you said you end up having to fund your own research because nobody wants to fund it.
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:03.000
And this doesn't have to be a battle.
00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:04.919
This doesn't have to be a war.
00:15:05.059 --> 00:15:11.039
We know that traditional psychology works and psychiatry works and medicine, Western medicine works.
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:17.860
We're not trying to replace that, but why do we have to deny this whole other aspect of what a human being is?
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:18.939
Right.
00:15:19.299 --> 00:15:22.919
And that can get into the whole right to try, you know, yeah.
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:32.500
And sadly, with a lot of cases with grief, too, because, you know, insurance covers certain therapies, right?
00:15:32.799 --> 00:15:39.059
And so when we're looking at grief, this is something that somebody is going to have to pay for out of pocket.
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:39.819
Yeah.
00:15:39.819 --> 00:15:48.199
Although there are a lot of transpersonal psychologists out there, people that I went to school with, they're practicing clinical.
00:15:48.319 --> 00:15:49.079
I'm not clinical.
00:15:49.459 --> 00:15:54.559
They're practicing clinical psychologists and they do have, you know, they take insurance.
00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:59.919
So they have to follow APA guidelines and things like that for the listener.
00:16:00.379 --> 00:16:02.939
APA is American Psychological Association.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:03.480
Right.
00:16:04.659 --> 00:16:06.699
And for me, I don't have to worry about that.
00:16:06.699 --> 00:16:13.620
Everything that I do, yeah, just about everything that I do is really spiritual guidance.
00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:26.179
So I go at it from, you know, I mean, if you even wanted to look at pastoral counseling and things like that, that's really what's happening with the psychomantium work that I do.
00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:43.220
And any work, if I'm working with somebody who's had, like, Aboriginal experiences, spiritual experiences, truly, I think that it is spiritual guidance because they're having spiritual experiences.
00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:45.480
Just from my perspective.
00:16:46.120 --> 00:17:03.379
Well, you know, as you were saying, I know you've worked with children who have had Aboriginal experiences, who have seen things for people that might not understand that term, you know, seen things that are spirit, you know, I've spoken with someone who talks about this being or this being of light that would come to her room at night when she was a child.
00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:07.160
And it's completely, you know, guided her life.
00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:07.799
Yes.
00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:12.460
And, you know, if she were taken to a traditional psychologist, they would say there's something wrong with you.
00:17:12.779 --> 00:17:13.259
Exactly.
00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:14.259
Exactly.
00:17:14.620 --> 00:17:20.559
And that's, I'm glad you brought that up because it's going into my research about apparitions.
00:17:20.779 --> 00:17:28.480
But I actually, I actually have participants that were adults that were recollecting their experiences as children.
00:17:29.860 --> 00:17:33.600
And some of those people, I mean, I have really strict criteria.
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:42.920
It had to be a corporeal apparition was just like, you know, you could sit down and have coffee with them and shake her hand.
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:44.620
And those were the criteria.
00:17:45.380 --> 00:17:50.200
And so, and I put a call out around the world for participants for that research.
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:52.480
And that was from my doctoral dissertation.
00:17:53.460 --> 00:17:57.400
And I had so many people write in.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:04.059
They didn't qualify, but it was like someone they felt safe to tell their story.
00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:10.000
And so I had a million, I mean, not millions, but I had about a thousand emails that came in.
00:19:16.930 --> 00:19:19.930
And so these are things that people hold in.
00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:29.228
And one of the things I think you had mentioned in the intro, but I can't remember, sorry, was that they're afraid to say, because people are going to think they're crazy.
00:19:29.629 --> 00:19:29.909
Yeah.
00:19:30.069 --> 00:19:35.589
That was probably the number one reason why these children, when they were kids, they kept it a secret.
00:19:36.329 --> 00:19:39.369
In several cases, I was the first person they told.
00:19:40.948 --> 00:19:44.990
From even from childhood, they didn't tell anybody because they were so afraid.
00:19:45.549 --> 00:19:47.990
One person said, I'm afraid they're going to put me in the nuthouse.
00:19:49.549 --> 00:19:53.289
Well, it's true of that is true of near-death experiences, et cetera.
00:19:53.429 --> 00:19:59.669
And the thing is, I love when people start doing the research because we find out these things are not as uncommon as we think.
00:19:59.829 --> 00:20:03.649
And I was, and lately I've been running into a lot of people who have lost spouses.
00:20:03.829 --> 00:20:11.929
And I've done a little research myself, and it's like 60 to 75 percent of people who've lost a spouse have had some sort of after-death communication with them.
00:20:12.490 --> 00:20:18.689
I was talking with a client just a couple of days ago, and she was telling me about the experiences she's had with her husband who has passed.
00:20:19.229 --> 00:20:21.149
She said, and I wish I could believe this was true.
00:20:21.269 --> 00:20:27.709
I want to believe this is true, but she doesn't feel like she has the permission because, you know, because no one talks about it.
00:20:28.129 --> 00:20:29.490
Right, right.
00:20:31.009 --> 00:20:36.869
Oh man, that's, that is another huge one is, and it happens so often.
00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:55.269
In fact, things are getting a little lighter now as far as, you know, the clinical perspective of apparitions, whether it be visual apparitions or auditory apparitions of of deceased spouses, because it happens so often.
00:20:55.929 --> 00:21:06.089
But still the point, I think, with the direction that the grief counseling has a tendency to go towards is the letting go and moving on.
00:21:07.169 --> 00:21:21.109
And fortunately, continuing bonds theory, even though continuing bonds still has that ending part of it, it's, that is becoming a little better known and more utilized.
00:21:22.289 --> 00:21:32.329
But my feeling is, is like, I mean, just like in other traditions, you know, your relationship with the deceased, it's not ended.
00:21:32.329 --> 00:21:34.029
It's just in a different form.
00:21:35.289 --> 00:21:37.629
Yeah, I completely agree with that.
00:21:37.889 --> 00:21:45.329
And, you know, I was just thinking of another client I have that had a dream of his wife who had passed where she was physically in the room.
00:21:45.469 --> 00:21:49.909
It was kind of funny, because he was telling me before he would kind of like to have this experience that would have happened.
00:21:49.990 --> 00:21:53.809
He was a little bit scared, but she ended up, you know, in the room with them.
00:21:53.889 --> 00:21:58.149
And then other members of his family had similar experiences with her.
00:21:59.189 --> 00:22:04.409
And these are the things that people don't typically, I mean, people will tell me that, but they won't tell their friends that.
00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:06.589
Right.
00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:07.389
Yeah.
00:22:07.469 --> 00:22:08.329
And that's unfortunate.
00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:17.569
Yeah, again, that's that, you know, the strong grip of the, you know, scientism and materialism.
00:22:18.389 --> 00:22:22.629
I have in my book, the Phil experiment.
00:22:23.269 --> 00:22:27.789
I don't know if you've heard of that, but it was a group of skeptics.
00:22:28.389 --> 00:22:37.209
This was in Canada, and I, for the life of me, I wrote my book a long time ago, so it was been over a year since I've even gone through to edit it again.
00:22:37.969 --> 00:22:48.449
But there's a group of Canadians, skeptics that got together, and they were going to prove that this whole seance thing was, you know, all fake.
00:22:49.449 --> 00:23:09.789
And because they were all skeptics, none of them were trying to fool anybody else, you know, because their point was to show this, and they actually conjured up a spirit, for lack of a better way to describe it, that was communicating by knocks, and, you know, knocking sounds.
00:23:10.389 --> 00:23:13.250
And they named him Phil.
00:23:16.409 --> 00:23:23.829
But they had no explanation, and they continued these experiments trying to communicate with this.
00:23:24.369 --> 00:23:32.569
And they actually named a spirit Phil, and they had this whole story about this person that they made up, and that's who they were going to try and contact.
00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:49.309
Something came through, and so they just called it Phil, because they didn't really, to me, I thought, while they were skeptics, they weren't really researchers, so to me they weren't asking enough good questions to get information.
00:23:50.129 --> 00:24:18.250
But they didn't know what to think of it, because they actually, like the table was moving, and they were seeing all of this paranormal phenomenon going on right in front of their faces, and, you know, they were doing it as research, so they had to, you know, keep track of all of this and write it down, and I just thought that was so interesting, because little did they know that they actually conjured something up, you know, they had no explanation.
00:24:19.269 --> 00:24:30.889
Yeah, well, that's why people mess around with Ouija boards, and sometimes people, my father tells a story about one of his relatives that when they were young was messing around with the Ouija board and thinking there's nothing that's going to happen, and they end up scaring themselves.
00:24:31.990 --> 00:24:36.809
So you have to be careful when you're messing around with things that are on the other side.
00:24:37.569 --> 00:24:46.490
But to the psychomantium, or to the mirror gazing, as might be a more common term, explain to people what that is.
00:24:47.349 --> 00:25:02.809
Well, it is based on scrying, and that's, Dr. Moody, he actually wouldn't take anybody to go through his psychomantium, unless they could actually scry and see something in a crystal ball.
00:25:03.429 --> 00:25:04.129
Oh, I didn't know that.
00:25:04.409 --> 00:25:09.009
So because his work was, he was basing everything on apparitions.
00:25:09.649 --> 00:25:13.349
Okay, he wanted his people to be able to see apparitions of the deceased.
00:25:14.049 --> 00:25:22.329
And so he wanted he was real selective, and they had to be able to see an image in a crystal ball before he would take them through.
00:25:23.689 --> 00:25:26.269
And that's the same idea with a mirror.
00:25:26.729 --> 00:25:29.829
With mirror gazing, you're not looking at your own image.
00:25:30.209 --> 00:25:32.589
The mirror is tilted, so you can't see yourself.
00:25:33.189 --> 00:25:34.789
And it's a very dark room.
00:25:35.669 --> 00:25:43.809
And so, in my case, I have a tent-like structure, and it's all black, and everything is dark, and it's basically like sensory deprivation.
00:25:44.689 --> 00:25:49.309
So there's no smell, there's no sound, there's, you know, very low light.
00:25:49.409 --> 00:25:52.429
So you're looking into this mirror, only you don't see yourself.
00:25:53.209 --> 00:25:59.869
And the point is, is that you go into kind of a, well, it's not kind of, you do go into a slight altered state of consciousness.
00:26:00.949 --> 00:26:05.990
And that's when things, that's when your critical brain kind of relaxes a little bit.
00:26:06.629 --> 00:26:12.369
And so you're able to be open to more things coming in, and to have that experience.
00:26:12.909 --> 00:26:24.490
But the psychomantium is basically an environment set up specifically for a connection to be on the veil.
00:26:25.389 --> 00:26:30.069
And as far as I'm concerned, the mirror is the portal to the other side.
00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:37.029
And so that's what, you know, I tell people, don't expect an apparition because it's really rare.
00:26:37.189 --> 00:26:40.789
It could happen, but be open to anything and everything.
00:26:41.929 --> 00:26:47.109
And use that mirror when you look into the mirror, you know, that's to the other side.
00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:48.849
And it's kind of like eating phonome.
00:26:49.629 --> 00:26:52.589
And you can talk to your deceased loved one.
00:26:52.949 --> 00:26:53.049
Yeah.
00:26:53.089 --> 00:26:54.409
So this is where you can communicate.
00:26:55.569 --> 00:27:05.369
And I always tell them that sometimes they'll come in, it's not very often they'll come in, they're a little concerned about going in trepidatious about being in there by themselves.
00:27:06.449 --> 00:27:13.949
But by the time I'm done with what we called a pre-interview, which was getting them prepped to go in, I would tell them I'll sit in there with them.
00:27:13.949 --> 00:27:22.009
I'll sit right outside the curtain, or I'll sit outside the room, whatever they want, and use the logo, okay, I want you to sit in there with me.
00:27:22.609 --> 00:27:25.429
And by the time we get to the psychomanthem, they don't want me in the room.
00:27:26.709 --> 00:27:28.069
They want me out of there.
00:27:28.569 --> 00:27:31.409
And they're more than comfortable to be in there by themselves.
00:27:32.389 --> 00:27:36.229
And this is based, as I understand, on is an ancient Greek practice.
00:27:36.889 --> 00:27:37.609
Yeah, that's it.
00:27:38.569 --> 00:27:45.129
Dr. Moody was, I don't know if you're aware that not only was he psychiatrist, but he also had a PhD in philosophy.
00:27:45.789 --> 00:27:46.269
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:46.609 --> 00:27:46.869
Yeah.
00:27:47.209 --> 00:27:47.949
And he's a brilliant guy.
00:27:48.409 --> 00:27:50.589
Yeah, he loves Greek philosophy.
00:27:51.869 --> 00:28:02.449
And so he went to Greece, there used to be a video on YouTube, a long time ago, of him in his trip to Greece, because he had a film crew there.
00:28:02.949 --> 00:28:09.789
And he found what was called a necromanthem, which was like the Hall of the Dead, so to speak.
00:28:10.189 --> 00:28:15.349
But he talked about this cave, and it actually goes deep into a cave.
00:28:15.889 --> 00:28:22.009
And in ancient time, it was actually a ritual that took like, I think he said 29 days.
00:28:23.069 --> 00:28:27.929
And so they would go through like fasting and you know, really be prepped to go in there.
00:28:28.869 --> 00:28:33.309
And then when they went in, there would be like, and this is like the Oracle of the Dead.
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:38.969
And there'd be like a bat of some kind with water or water with oil on the surface.
00:28:39.889 --> 00:28:43.709
And then they could see again, like a mirror, a reflective surface.
00:28:44.449 --> 00:28:52.729
And so they would do the same thing, they wouldn't see themselves, but they would look into it for that apparition or to get a message.
00:28:53.709 --> 00:29:01.549
And so if they wanted to contact a departed loved one, or just like, you can contact anybody really.
00:29:02.889 --> 00:29:06.569
I mean, you can contact consciousness of somebody who's alive as far as I'm concerned.
00:29:07.209 --> 00:29:16.329
But in those cases, they may have been looking for a, you know, prophetic, something prophetic, they may have been wanting to contact a loved one.
00:29:16.589 --> 00:29:22.769
There were probably a multitude of reasons that they would go in for that ritual.
00:29:23.569 --> 00:29:23.669
Yeah.
00:29:24.309 --> 00:29:30.149
So in your experiences with the Psychomantium, what type of experiences did people have?
00:29:31.229 --> 00:29:32.949
Very, they had a variety of experiences.
00:29:34.129 --> 00:29:46.689
The majority of experiences were what they would see was like colored symbols or like lines or like a lightning bolt type of image that they would see coming out of the mirror.
00:29:47.889 --> 00:29:51.329
Typical colors were like green and purple.
00:29:51.889 --> 00:30:01.169
Some would be like pink or fuchsia when they would describe because in the research, we would have them describe what they saw.
00:30:01.729 --> 00:30:03.789
That was called a post interview.
00:30:04.649 --> 00:30:07.469
And we would ask them questions, we recorded it.
00:30:07.889 --> 00:30:13.069
And then they would also write it down, you know, write down what their experience was.
00:30:13.629 --> 00:30:17.469
But that, I mean, people would have a sense of smell.
00:30:18.409 --> 00:30:23.509
One person said they could smell their grandmother's kitchen when she was cooking sweet things.
00:30:24.649 --> 00:30:28.789
And so it was a very heartwarming type of experience.
00:30:30.149 --> 00:30:32.429
A lot of people felt a sense of presence.
00:30:33.069 --> 00:30:37.069
Even though they may not have seen an apparition, they felt the sense of presence there.
00:30:39.009 --> 00:30:42.789
Then there are people who did talk, you know, they had communication.
00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:53.549
And there were others who did two situations where out of well over a hundred, we only did analysis on a hundred of the participants.
00:30:53.589 --> 00:30:55.269
We had well over a hundred there.
00:30:56.709 --> 00:30:58.409
And two of them saw an apparition.
00:31:00.029 --> 00:31:05.269
So it's rare that an apparition is witnessed, but two did.
00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:17.629
I think probably the outcome of most of the people was when when they would come out, they would have a sense of peace overall.
00:31:18.349 --> 00:31:26.129
They may go in like they're, you know, in the pre-interview when we're prepping them, we usually have them talk about the loved one they want to contact.
00:31:26.429 --> 00:31:31.669
So they may, you know, laugh and cry and, you know, have all kinds of emotions.
00:31:32.529 --> 00:31:38.509
And then when they come out, the majority of the people just, you know, they were like, I'm really glad I did this.
00:31:38.669 --> 00:31:39.669
I was sense of peace.
00:31:40.569 --> 00:31:43.389
And some of the people that went in, I mean, I was pretty horrendous.
00:31:43.649 --> 00:31:47.909
Some of some of the reasons for their grief.
00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:56.229
I was on another interview and I said a word, I guess I wasn't supposed to because they YouTube cut it out.
00:31:56.929 --> 00:31:59.229
But basically they unalive to themselves.
00:32:00.209 --> 00:32:03.769
And, and the person wanted to know why.
00:32:04.869 --> 00:32:09.189
And, and so when she came out, she was, she felt at peace.
00:32:10.109 --> 00:32:13.990
And, and then another was a homicide.
00:32:15.689 --> 00:32:16.949
A brother was murdered.
00:32:18.509 --> 00:32:23.649
And so she went in and, you know, because they don't know what happened.
00:32:24.549 --> 00:32:26.009
They just hear about this.
00:32:26.449 --> 00:32:28.909
And so she wanted to go in and find out what happened.
00:32:30.229 --> 00:32:32.409
And to be honest with you, that was such a long time ago.
00:32:32.549 --> 00:32:35.929
And I, all I know is that she, she was glad she did it.
00:32:36.089 --> 00:32:38.969
And she, you know, felt a sense of peace afterwards.
00:32:40.169 --> 00:32:49.909
And I don't know if she got the full story, but one, one, actually I did two, two homes, at least two, now that I think about it.
00:32:50.409 --> 00:32:54.069
And another one was a sibling killed another sibling.
00:32:55.149 --> 00:32:57.209
And the mother wanted to know why.
00:32:58.029 --> 00:33:07.069
And so she went in and had her experience and she came out and she said she talked to her son who did the deed.
00:33:07.789 --> 00:33:11.969
And anyway, she came out and she goes, I understand now.
00:33:12.990 --> 00:33:17.389
And just that understanding that knowing helped her feel more at peace.
00:33:18.369 --> 00:33:19.829
And that's what it's really all about, right?
00:33:20.189 --> 00:33:21.809
It's really about peace.
00:33:22.029 --> 00:33:27.490
It's really about how people feel about the experience as opposed to the details of the experience itself.
00:33:28.429 --> 00:33:29.029
Yeah.
00:33:29.289 --> 00:33:39.849
Ultimately, you know, the goal is for them to, I mean, if they're grieving, we wanted, we were looking at did it reduce the symptoms of grief?
00:33:41.449 --> 00:33:43.709
And that's, and 92%.
00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:46.109
And it lasted over time, Brian.
00:33:46.529 --> 00:33:46.829
Yeah.
00:33:46.990 --> 00:33:52.569
We sent out a questionnaire again, I think it was a month or two months later.
00:33:53.169 --> 00:33:57.409
And the reductions all stayed the same, if not lowered.
00:33:58.429 --> 00:34:00.009
So it was really impressive.
00:34:00.689 --> 00:34:00.789
Yeah.
00:34:00.909 --> 00:34:04.029
And that, as I said, to me, to me, it's like, does it work?
00:34:04.429 --> 00:34:06.490
You know, we don't even know necessarily how it works.
00:34:06.629 --> 00:34:09.969
It works and it reduces, reduces the grief increases peace.
00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:11.550
That's where we're looking for.
00:34:12.429 --> 00:34:14.849
And it reminds me people that have medium readings.
00:34:15.110 --> 00:34:25.269
A lot of times people will say, I had a medium reading and it might say it's subjectively, but it's like, I feel so much more at peace now than all the therapy that I've been through.
00:34:25.490 --> 00:34:25.630
Yes.
00:34:25.849 --> 00:34:27.429
Just having that connection with that person.
00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:32.829
And that connection, whatever it is for people can really bring some peace.
00:34:33.530 --> 00:34:34.010
Absolutely.
00:34:34.750 --> 00:34:44.570
And you know, that's one of the things because the majority of our facilitators were in the PhD program to become clinical psychologists.
00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:52.449
And so for them, they would go in and it was just like this, especially one person.
00:34:53.530 --> 00:34:59.090
She's just like, this is amazing because she was a practicing therapist before she came into the program.
00:34:59.750 --> 00:35:12.769
And she goes, one session in our sessions for the research work, one hour before, one hour in the psychomandium, one hour after, she was a three hour session equals years of therapy.
00:35:13.730 --> 00:35:14.889
And she was just like a maze.
00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:17.110
It's like years, one session.
00:35:17.929 --> 00:35:20.230
And that I witnessed it myself.
00:35:20.969 --> 00:35:27.869
Another thing that I think that it was probably it's really good for her, at least in my experience.
00:35:28.269 --> 00:35:30.909
I took two people through with complicated grief.
00:35:32.250 --> 00:35:36.369
And one was seriously bad.
00:35:36.369 --> 00:35:39.010
But she was really suffering.
00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:42.969
Her career was everything was going downhill for her.
00:35:43.250 --> 00:35:45.710
So her therapist actually sent her to our research.
00:35:46.530 --> 00:35:49.349
And I was fortunate enough to take her through.
00:35:50.110 --> 00:35:52.429
And this woman, her daughter was killed.
00:35:53.510 --> 00:35:55.230
She was in a bicycle troop.
00:35:55.610 --> 00:35:58.389
They were going on a trip somewhere.
00:35:58.909 --> 00:36:03.389
And she got hit by a van and killed.
00:36:03.909 --> 00:36:05.250
And this was her only child.
00:36:05.250 --> 00:36:07.090
And they were like best friends.
00:36:07.510 --> 00:36:09.030
And she was devastated.
00:36:09.469 --> 00:36:13.550
And it was over a year and she was still just like the day it happened.
00:36:14.829 --> 00:36:21.090
So when she came in and she talked and we did our thing and she went into the psychomandium.
00:36:22.090 --> 00:36:26.889
And when she came out, I was touched.
00:36:27.889 --> 00:36:31.170
She was her energy was completely shifted.
00:36:31.550 --> 00:36:32.329
She was smiling.
00:36:32.829 --> 00:36:34.490
She was crying, but she was smiling.
00:36:35.289 --> 00:36:38.450
And she says, oh my gosh, I understand.
00:36:39.010 --> 00:36:39.749
I get it.
00:36:40.070 --> 00:36:44.530
And so we went and talked and this is one where she was able to communicate.
00:36:44.809 --> 00:36:46.550
She felt she communicated with her daughter.
00:36:47.430 --> 00:36:51.550
And her daughter said, you feel that the only way to stay connected is through pain.
00:36:52.170 --> 00:36:54.030
But we're always connected by love.
00:36:54.849 --> 00:36:56.930
And I get choked up when I always repeat that.
00:36:56.930 --> 00:36:58.309
I just got chills when you said that.
00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:00.970
Yeah, and it just, it choked me up.
00:37:01.110 --> 00:37:03.610
I mean, it was hard because I'm supposed to be all neutral and everything.
00:37:03.910 --> 00:37:04.890
And I'm like, okay, don't cry.
00:37:04.890 --> 00:37:05.809
Don't cry, don't cry.
00:37:07.289 --> 00:37:10.269
But she was lit up.
00:37:11.430 --> 00:37:13.170
Absolutely lit up.
00:37:14.210 --> 00:37:15.769
And she came back a year later.
00:37:17.050 --> 00:37:19.769
And I mean, she was just transformed.
00:37:20.050 --> 00:37:21.690
She was over it.
00:37:22.390 --> 00:37:26.430
And so she came back a year later, asked for me, and I took her through again.
00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:34.470
She wanted to talk to her daughter about leaving her career and going into a more spiritual type career.
00:37:35.349 --> 00:37:38.110
And she just wanted to talk to her daughter about it.
00:37:39.050 --> 00:37:47.329
So it was fairly interesting because these kinds of transformative experiences can transform everything in your life.
00:37:48.349 --> 00:37:51.470
Perspectives, expectations, desires.
00:37:53.210 --> 00:37:53.849
Yeah, it's it.
00:37:54.410 --> 00:38:01.510
And for me, working with that person, I mean, I actually needed to be debriefed because it was so profound.
00:38:02.769 --> 00:38:15.090
So when I see that, I'm just like, if this could help in one session help people with complicated grief, what, you know, or prolonged grief disorder, I always call it complicated.
00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:20.010
Yeah, that that makes so much sense to me.
00:38:20.170 --> 00:38:25.769
And as someone, my backgrounds in engineering and I admire western science.
00:38:25.870 --> 00:38:28.550
I think I know science has brought us lots and lots of great things.
00:38:28.690 --> 00:38:33.349
But every time I hear stories, I feel like we're trying to do stuff with one hand tied behind our back.
00:38:33.349 --> 00:38:43.470
If we could give our professionals these tools because we can always go to people, you know, we can go to lay people, we can go to mediums and mediums do fantastic work.
00:38:43.849 --> 00:39:02.289
But if we could give people with the credentials and the training, the psychological training, this tool, they could say for this person, you know, EMDR, for example, can do almost seems like miraculous things for people because they have these experiences where they go through the sessions.
00:39:02.289 --> 00:39:08.970
It's I can never wear stands for but it's I have movement sessions and people can be transformed in one session.
00:39:11.160 --> 00:39:19.579
They can now with the EMDR, I think the standard is like seven to nine sessions with the MDR. But oh, Irene.
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:20.120
Oh, goodness.
00:39:21.559 --> 00:39:23.620
The name just Alan Botkin.
00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:26.380
He Oh, Alan Botkin.
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:26.620
Yes.
00:39:26.900 --> 00:39:30.340
Yeah, he got a hold of me when I was still a student.
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:36.500
And I guess he found because I was doing the web page for our research.
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:46.720
And he wrote me about his experience doing EMDR with a patient who had an experience with contacting the deceased.
00:39:47.720 --> 00:39:47.820
Yeah.
00:39:48.160 --> 00:39:57.340
And now I see that even as a textbook, I don't know if he wrote it, but there's a textbook out where they're teaching that for using it for grief work, I believe.
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.860
Yeah, there's a specialized form of it called RRGT.
00:40:02.380 --> 00:40:09.240
And I worked with some people that do that, but it's hard to find someone that actually knows how to do it.
00:40:09.460 --> 00:40:14.920
It's like you can't just go look up RRGT and go down in the corner and find someone that can do this with you.
00:40:15.300 --> 00:40:16.019
And this is what I'm saying.
00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:19.900
We've got these great tools that we're not getting out there.
00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:24.780
And I remember when I heard about the psychomantium, I knew that Raymond Moody does some work with it.
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:28.640
I didn't know people were actually using it clinically with people.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:30.500
And that's wonderful news to me.
00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:44.640
Yeah, and unfortunately, my concern was, like when Raymond, his book came out back in the mid 90s, I think Reunions was the book he wrote about his research.
00:40:45.579 --> 00:40:48.120
And then he was on Oprah.
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:54.360
And anyway, it was just like, oh my gosh, why didn't know what kind of reaction would be from my book?
00:40:54.559 --> 00:41:00.740
But I only, I refer to one person and she was trained under Raymond.
00:41:01.620 --> 00:41:02.760
And she's in Oklahoma.
00:41:03.840 --> 00:41:08.700
My psychomantium, I was in a fire in Paradise, California and my psychomantium burned.
00:41:09.519 --> 00:41:12.920
And so I don't have a psychomantium right now.
00:41:13.099 --> 00:41:15.059
So there's, I'm referring to her.
00:41:15.539 --> 00:41:16.640
And so there's one person.
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:21.880
And that's, you know, I created a certification program.
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:32.860
I just starting it and putting it together to reach out to anyone who is interested in becoming certified as a facilitator for psychomantium.
00:41:33.700 --> 00:41:36.840
But right now, there just isn't anybody out there.
00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:44.880
In fact, almost all of the students that went through as facilitators when we were doing the research, they're all clinical.
00:41:45.740 --> 00:41:47.940
So they're all doing clinical psychology work.
00:41:48.099 --> 00:41:52.599
And that's, they're not, no one is using a psychomantium anymore.
00:41:53.539 --> 00:41:53.640
Yeah.
00:41:54.620 --> 00:41:55.500
And that's just not available.
00:41:55.500 --> 00:41:59.120
To me, that's the shame of some of these tools that we have available.
00:41:59.120 --> 00:42:01.200
And there's a woman I work with.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:04.079
I guess I can say her name is Judith Hancock's.
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:08.420
And Judith was trained in our RGT.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:10.400
And I went through it with her.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:13.260
I've had the experience and it's really amazing.
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:21.539
But every time I talk to a client about it, I have trouble finding someone to refer to for them to be able to do it with them.
00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:25.940
So it's what I love about the work that you're doing is getting this out there.
00:42:26.860 --> 00:42:31.880
And if we get enough people pushing to mainstream this stuff, hopefully it will eventually happen.
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:36.360
There's a saying that, I guess science advances one funeral at a time.
00:42:36.860 --> 00:42:45.200
So we have to wait for some of these older people to like die out and make room for us to bring these ancient wisdoms.
00:42:45.340 --> 00:42:46.940
I mean, the thing is, these things aren't new.
00:42:47.340 --> 00:42:49.400
These ancient wisdoms to our society.
00:42:50.140 --> 00:42:51.420
That's exactly right.
00:42:51.840 --> 00:43:06.780
And that's one of the things it's kind of like, we're looking at something because it is so old, millennia old, that it can't possibly fit with our modern world now.
00:43:07.340 --> 00:43:11.960
And that's one of the things about Raymond that I really admire is he's like, we're going to make this work.
00:43:13.099 --> 00:43:20.480
So he just developed his own way of doing the psychomantium and renamed it from a necromantium to a psychomantium.
00:43:20.980 --> 00:43:26.880
But that's just how he is, Dr. Moody, because he says it's the theater of the mind.
00:43:29.940 --> 00:43:31.460
He's so cute.
00:43:31.940 --> 00:43:33.620
So let's talk about some of the other research you've done.
00:43:33.760 --> 00:43:38.840
You've done, we kind of touched on earlier, research with children who have seen apparitions.
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:39.420
Adults.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:41.420
I studied adults.
00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:42.000
Adults who, okay.
00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:43.099
Yeah, right.
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:45.460
Who had apparitional experiences as children.
00:43:46.099 --> 00:43:46.380
Yes, yes.
00:43:46.860 --> 00:43:49.480
So tell me about some of these experiences.
00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:51.740
Oh, gosh.
00:43:52.740 --> 00:43:54.099
There were a lot.
00:43:54.099 --> 00:44:01.900
But for the ones, again, the criteria for my research was it had to be a corporeal apparition.
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:04.980
And that's like strict.
00:44:05.579 --> 00:44:09.480
And the reason that I did that is well, when I wanted to graduate.
00:44:11.480 --> 00:44:17.019
And so I narrowed it down because I was doing qualitative research, not quantitative.
00:44:17.660 --> 00:44:17.900
Okay.
00:44:18.039 --> 00:44:28.900
And so I wanted to analyze and look at the qualities of their experiences and you know, I used heuristic method, which is, you know, because I had the experience as a kid.
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.880
And so anyway, I really narrowed it down and it had to be a biblical figure.
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:36.539
So there was no angels.
00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:48.940
And so I had, like I said, an influx of all kinds and a lot of them I couldn't use because they were not corporeal.
00:44:50.059 --> 00:44:53.920
But a lot of people were saying as kids they had apparitions.
00:44:54.660 --> 00:44:58.400
but they were like wispy or ghost like.
00:45:00.579 --> 00:45:05.539
But it was they would say and the majority I'm Catholic, I was raised Catholic.
00:45:05.960 --> 00:45:10.140
And so in the Catholicism, it's always an apparition of Mary.
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:14.980
Yeah, but the majority of the participants in my research saw Jesus.
00:45:15.260 --> 00:45:15.940
Oh, wow.
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:16.539
Yeah.
00:45:16.720 --> 00:45:23.960
And I had a Native American we saw Jesus and I had a Jewish person who saw Jesus.
00:45:25.640 --> 00:45:27.559
So yeah, it was very, very interesting.
00:45:28.500 --> 00:45:32.360
And it buried in how they came about.
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:38.800
One participant, I think she said she was about nine years old.
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:44.780
Her parents used to fight all the time and she remembered laying in bed and she was raised.
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:49.360
I can't remember what religion she was raised, but it was a Christian type religion.
00:45:50.360 --> 00:45:56.840
And she was praying to Jesus to please make her parents stop because she was freaked out.
00:45:57.700 --> 00:46:05.000
And she said all of a sudden her room, there was these lights purple and blue sparkly light.
00:46:05.360 --> 00:46:06.160
And that's another thing.
00:46:06.340 --> 00:46:11.640
It's like the quality of the light that they would describe was really amazing.
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:18.240
It was so bright, it would blind you, but it didn't hurt my eyes.
00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:23.039
And so with her, it was a purple and blue sparkly light.
00:46:23.780 --> 00:46:34.079
And Jesus was there and she was laying in bed praying and Jesus showed up and he put his hand like where she was laying hand on her shoulder.
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:40.280
And she immediately calmed down and immediately relaxed.
00:46:41.380 --> 00:46:44.039
And then he slowly just faded away.
00:46:44.500 --> 00:46:46.840
You know, he just disappeared.
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:48.720
And then she fell asleep.
00:46:49.460 --> 00:46:52.700
And so, but remembered it all her life.
00:46:53.120 --> 00:47:02.240
I'm really fascinated when you said there had to be a corporeal experience because you touched on it early with the psychomantium when you said that only a few people saw two people, I think you said saw apparitions.
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:10.300
And when I talk to clients about afterlife communications after death communications, you know, corporeal experience, apparitions are rare.
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:13.280
Corporeal expenses are even more rare.
00:47:13.700 --> 00:47:20.480
Most people see, you know, fleeting things, lights, thimes, feathers, you know, all those things that we expect.
00:47:20.660 --> 00:47:25.860
So you really narrowed this down to, you know, a really strict set of criteria.
00:47:26.260 --> 00:47:26.680
Yes.
00:47:27.300 --> 00:47:27.500
Yeah.
00:47:28.160 --> 00:47:30.400
And that's what made it even more fascinating.
00:47:30.700 --> 00:47:32.400
Yeah, the research.
00:47:34.180 --> 00:47:38.780
And like I said, I got so many emails from around the world.
00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.840
And there was one I couldn't use it.
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.780
But and I think it was because I had a limit.
00:47:49.120 --> 00:47:53.059
They couldn't be over 12 years old when it happened.
00:47:53.640 --> 00:47:55.240
And I think this boy was 13.
00:47:56.200 --> 00:47:59.460
And in South Africa, this one blew me away.
00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:03.400
And I wanted to use it so badly, but I couldn't because I had to stick to my criteria.
00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:10.059
He was riding his bicycle and a car hit him.
00:48:11.099 --> 00:48:16.440
But he found himself on the other side of the road, standing next to Jesus.
00:48:17.019 --> 00:48:18.980
Jesus had his arm around him.
00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:24.360
And he looked and he saw the car had run over his bicycle.
00:48:25.940 --> 00:48:31.400
And the person who was driving was like freaking out looking for the kid.
00:48:32.680 --> 00:48:36.680
And he was there with Jesus holding on to him.
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:41.059
And I was just like, wow.
00:48:42.660 --> 00:48:49.740
Okay, that one is really interesting because evidently Jesus picked him up and carried him away so that he wouldn't get hit.
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:59.039
And what is even more interesting to me was after that, I guess he was kind of this like little bully type of boy.
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:03.740
And didn't you know, he's just disrespectful and all of this stuff.
00:49:04.160 --> 00:49:07.640
And after that experience, he changed completely.
00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:13.400
And he was like helping the neighbors and whatever his mother or father would ask for.
00:49:14.000 --> 00:49:15.599
And he always wanted to help everyone.
00:49:16.680 --> 00:49:21.360
And he said it really, he goes, I can't explain it, but it was like, I just suddenly changed.
00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:24.360
So that's huge.
00:49:25.039 --> 00:49:25.760
It's really interesting.
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:32.300
I just released a podcast interview last week, a guy named Jonathan Ashford who had a near-death experience.
00:49:33.140 --> 00:49:34.579
He was a total materialist.
00:49:35.380 --> 00:49:40.360
He was a sea level executive, totally hedonistic lifestyle.
00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:41.700
This is the way he describes it.
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:43.320
And he has this experience.
00:49:43.539 --> 00:49:44.680
He crosses the other side.
00:49:44.820 --> 00:49:45.579
He meets Jesus.
00:49:46.340 --> 00:49:47.300
And now he came back.
00:49:47.440 --> 00:49:48.860
He quit his job the next day.
00:49:49.220 --> 00:49:50.800
He doesn't take money for anything.
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:51.900
He lives like a monk.
00:49:52.640 --> 00:49:59.180
He doesn't, you know, and it may complete change in personality based upon this experience that he had.
00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:04.000
So as you're saying that, you know, I've talked to people that have gone through that.
00:50:04.700 --> 00:50:12.880
And it's really interesting to have someone doing research to, again, I don't know why we need to have these things validated, but we seem like we do.
00:50:13.180 --> 00:50:13.280
Right.
00:50:13.680 --> 00:50:26.140
We all, well, I wouldn't say we all know someone because when my daughter passed away, my experience was that when I started sharing with my people that I've known for years, things that I experienced, then suddenly they started opening up.
00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:29.140
I mean, I'm like, I would look at them and say, I've known you for 20 years.
00:50:29.420 --> 00:50:30.860
You've never told me this story.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:34.559
So I think a lot of us have these stories.
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:36.120
We just were scared to share them.
00:50:36.740 --> 00:50:37.140
Exactly.
00:50:37.780 --> 00:50:38.079
Exactly.
00:50:38.079 --> 00:51:05.740
When I was doing my research, I went to Europe and I was going to marry an apparition sites, but I was staying, you know, I would stay at a bed and breakfast and I stopped in England first and I was at a bed and breakfast and the woman came to pick me up because I wasn't driving and I told her about my research and she said, oh, I saw Jesus.
00:51:08.680 --> 00:51:11.180
And he's just like, of course you did.
00:51:12.500 --> 00:51:15.039
You know, just people would open up like that.
00:51:15.180 --> 00:51:18.480
It's kind of like, oh, it's safe for me to say this right now.
00:51:19.260 --> 00:51:20.539
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:23.500
So did I hear you say that you had an experience when you were young?
00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:38.460
Yes, when I was, I can't, you know, when you're a little kid, ages and I was like, I'm this many that I was probably between five and seven years old and I saw an apparition who I perceived to be Jesus.
00:51:39.940 --> 00:51:44.500
At the time, I was raised Catholic and I'm agnostic now.
00:51:44.680 --> 00:51:50.760
I'm in search of knowing and yeah, I perceived him to be Jesus.
00:51:50.920 --> 00:51:53.960
It was in church and I was there.
00:51:54.140 --> 00:51:58.460
I have four brothers and my mother was there with us and trying to keep us all settled.
00:51:58.980 --> 00:52:06.980
But when I saw him, he was up on the altar and I was just like, whoa, he wasn't looking at me.
00:52:07.160 --> 00:52:38.340
He was looking at the people because there were two sides, like pews on each side and he was looking at the people on that side and then when he moved his eyes and he came down, he locked eyes with me and he communicated something to me and I can never talk about it because I just burst into tears whenever I do without any control whatsoever that he did communicate with me telepathically and so I was just like, mom, and you're wearing church, right?
00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:44.900
And I'm like, Jesus is up there at the altar and I'm screaming and so she's like, yeah, yeah, okay, he is.
00:52:45.260 --> 00:52:45.680
Calm down.
00:52:46.940 --> 00:52:49.120
And my mother was really esoteric.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:53.220
I mean, she was, she was a classic esotericist is very cool.
00:52:53.800 --> 00:53:04.160
She taught us how to be more psychic and I was raised with really interesting stuff and so I figured if anybody's going to believe I saw Jesus it would be my mother.
00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:12.800
Now, if it would have been like an aunt or a great grandfather or something, she'd be all over it because it was Jesus.
00:53:13.120 --> 00:53:14.640
It's like, yeah, right, okay.
00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.019
And that was the shutdown.
00:53:20.760 --> 00:53:22.200
Yeah, that was the shutdown.
00:53:22.579 --> 00:53:25.160
It's like, it's not safe to tell anybody.
00:53:26.160 --> 00:53:35.099
And that's the message that unfortunately a lot of us get and that's again, that's the work hopefully that you're doing that'll help to remove that stigma that we have.
00:53:35.740 --> 00:53:38.800
Now, you said earlier, you said that you're agnostic now.
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:45.920
You're in search of knowledge, which that means, but clearly you believe in something beyond this life.
00:53:46.760 --> 00:53:48.700
Yeah, that's why I'm agnostic.
00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:53.700
I was a precocious kid and I was in Catholic school.
00:53:54.180 --> 00:54:03.820
I went to Catholic school for eight years and I was always asking questions and then when they wouldn't answer, it would make me mad.
00:54:04.840 --> 00:54:10.099
You know, I talk about the Bible and this and I'm like, well, how could that happen and why is this or that or whatever?
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:11.220
Yeah, don't ask questions.
00:54:11.720 --> 00:54:15.120
I just thought, you're all a bunch of liars.
00:54:16.059 --> 00:54:17.800
This is all a bunch of BS.
00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:23.000
And so by the time I was 11 years old, I would tell people I'm an atheist.
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:25.940
I don't believe in this stuff.
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.640
I'm an atheist and my father was an atheist.
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:34.820
Yeah, it's a really interesting combo with my mother and my father, but yeah, he was an atheist, kind of hardcore.
00:54:36.579 --> 00:54:46.539
But after, after I had the apparition of Jesus as a kid, I would have the same dream every night.
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:59.220
Jesus would, I would find myself in a meadow opening of a forest and I'd be there with like, there'd be like 12 of us little girls and Jesus was teaching us.
00:55:00.519 --> 00:55:07.820
And when class was over, and this was at night, like it was, I was asleep dreaming.
00:55:09.220 --> 00:55:17.320
And whenever class was over, I'd run up to Jesus and put my arms around him or whatever and he would touch my head or put his hand on my shoulder.
00:55:17.980 --> 00:55:20.480
And I would just bolt up right in bed.
00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:24.940
And I could never remember what he taught us.
00:55:25.099 --> 00:55:26.820
And that happened every night.
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:31.019
I don't know, for probably a good five years.
00:55:31.900 --> 00:55:32.460
Maybe more.
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:38.320
And then it was three nights a week for a long while, then it was two nights a week.
00:55:39.420 --> 00:55:42.800
And by the time I became a teenager, they stopped.
00:55:44.700 --> 00:55:49.720
And so then when I was 18, it happened again.
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:51.960
And we all grew up, these little girls.
00:55:53.220 --> 00:55:58.200
So when I was 18, they were all like 18-year-olds like me.
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:00.820
And so the same thing happened.
00:56:01.780 --> 00:56:02.360
Class was over.
00:56:02.860 --> 00:56:04.039
I ran up and hugged him.
00:56:04.460 --> 00:56:07.180
He touched me and I bolt up right.
00:56:08.160 --> 00:56:11.220
And that was the last one.
00:56:11.680 --> 00:56:15.280
And that was a grief thing for me because I felt like I was abandoned.
00:56:16.280 --> 00:56:18.200
It's like you abandoned me.
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:24.440
But at the time, I had realized I'm not atheist.
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:25.860
That's just anger.
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:27.780
I'm not an atheist.
00:56:28.240 --> 00:56:28.980
I was just angry.
00:56:29.780 --> 00:56:32.220
I'm agnostic because I know there's something.
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:33.559
I just don't know what it is.
00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:37.019
And so I'm in search of no says.
00:56:37.740 --> 00:56:38.680
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:42.340
And to me, that sounds like that was more than a dream.
00:56:42.579 --> 00:56:47.519
That was something that was you projecting in the astral plane or something.
00:56:48.099 --> 00:56:56.200
Yeah, I didn't know anything about it except for I thought I'd have this dream every night and I never could remember what I was being taught.
00:56:57.099 --> 00:57:00.940
And in the person looked like Jesus to me.
00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:07.240
You know, so I always say now it's like someone who I identified as being Jesus.
00:57:08.280 --> 00:57:13.240
But later in my 20s, I was with Whitney Stryber.
00:57:14.079 --> 00:57:20.880
He had talked about going to night school and I was like, oh wow, that's interesting.
00:57:22.200 --> 00:57:23.820
Did I go to night school?
00:57:24.420 --> 00:57:30.120
Well, there are a lot of people that believe that we all actually project every night and most of it we don't remember.
00:57:30.700 --> 00:57:37.740
And sometimes we'll wake up and we'll have a feeling like there was something that I learned, but I can't remember what it was.
00:57:38.740 --> 00:57:41.099
And I always jokingly say, people talk about Jesus.
00:57:41.320 --> 00:57:44.640
I'm like, he's the hardest working man in the afterlife because he's all over the place.
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:50.680
Because it's really interesting because people say, well, you saw Jesus because you expected to.
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:56.099
People that are strict materialists, atheists see Jesus.
00:57:56.539 --> 00:57:59.059
People that are Hindu are like, what are you doing here?
00:57:59.160 --> 00:58:00.400
I did not expect to see you.
00:58:01.300 --> 00:58:07.820
So there is something about that image, that person that seems to be universal.
00:58:09.820 --> 00:58:21.940
That and you just made me think about in the Hindu tradition, Babaji, that there are people, I think Christians who actually saw an apparition of Babaji.
00:58:21.940 --> 00:58:22.579
Yeah.
00:58:23.240 --> 00:58:25.800
So, I mean, it's fascinating.
00:58:26.480 --> 00:58:27.240
I love my research.
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:28.320
I don't know if you can tell.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:31.780
I absolutely love my research.
00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:35.099
So it fascinates me.
00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:45.059
And I think as long as we are keeping all of this secret, we're never going to grow in our abilities.
00:58:46.500 --> 00:58:51.700
Yeah, you know, this to me is a sad thing.
00:58:52.380 --> 00:58:53.420
I completely agree.
00:58:53.640 --> 00:59:01.440
I feel like we have lost who we are until people, we are lost people because this stuff, again, it's ancient.
00:59:02.200 --> 00:59:03.280
It was widely accepted.
00:59:03.539 --> 00:59:04.960
It was just taken for granted.
00:59:05.220 --> 00:59:14.039
Everybody, you know, there weren't materialists, you know, even the scientific people, the science people said, well, there's an orderly universe.
00:59:14.360 --> 00:59:17.059
This must have been created by an orderly God or creator.
00:59:17.559 --> 00:59:19.640
The way to get to know the creator is through his creation.
00:59:20.160 --> 00:59:26.840
And they expect it, regularity, etc., because there is something that's over this, some intelligence behind it.
00:59:27.579 --> 00:59:34.440
And when we take that away, then we end up with this, you know, as I look at it now, it's like we're not treating the whole person.
00:59:34.860 --> 00:59:38.900
Going back to the mental health and the physical health people, we're not treating the whole person.
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:42.340
So some of these things like RRGT, the psychomantium.
00:59:42.780 --> 00:59:49.079
I've talked to people that are micro dosing plant medicines now that are having incredible results.
00:59:50.120 --> 00:59:56.880
Cure, you know, like curing, well, actually curing all kinds of things that we think are impossible with Western medicines.
00:59:57.120 --> 01:00:02.400
I'm really excited about your research too, because I want to see this, you know, become mainstream.
01:00:03.539 --> 01:00:16.440
I would love that because I, I mean, I think that my feeling is that we are, we can be multidimensional beings.
01:00:18.059 --> 01:00:33.480
And I think the reason that I was more interested in children's experiences, you know, adults when they were children, is because we were not as indoctrinated when we were little kids.
01:00:34.760 --> 01:00:35.920
And so we're more open.
01:00:36.079 --> 01:00:42.200
And I think we experience that multidimensionality easily.
01:00:43.579 --> 01:00:47.400
And just like people, like kids with their invisible friends.
01:00:49.539 --> 01:01:09.860
It's so that kind of thing fascinates me as there's there's an even when I'm going to go off the rails here, but even with ET encounters, you know, I wrote a chapter for a book about the Fatima apparitions in Portugal.
01:01:11.780 --> 01:01:23.740
And I, you know, it was, they were looking at it from, you know, the way that the children in Portugal were describing their experiences and what the people that gathered saw in the sky.
01:01:24.240 --> 01:01:26.300
This is where they saw the sun spinning in the sky.
01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:33.360
They were looking at it from all of the ET or alien encounters.
01:01:34.760 --> 01:01:43.240
And so they asked me because I'm pretty much, or I think I still am, like the only person who has a specialization in childhood religious apparitions.
01:01:44.539 --> 01:01:47.840
So they asked me to contribute a chapter.
01:01:48.559 --> 01:01:53.760
And I thought, okay, I can do that, but I don't want to do all this research on ET.
01:01:54.420 --> 01:01:56.880
I just graduated.
01:01:57.720 --> 01:02:01.780
But I'll tell you, I got so sucked into that.
01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:08.980
I was fascinated because John Mack, I don't know if you're familiar with him.
01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:12.460
He was a psychologist who studied.
01:02:13.240 --> 01:02:20.559
He did some case studies of his clients who claimed to have been either abducted or had encounters.
01:02:21.980 --> 01:02:29.740
And the stories that they told and the descriptions absolutely sucked me in.
01:02:29.900 --> 01:02:31.840
Oh my gosh, I went down the rabbit hole.
01:02:33.240 --> 01:02:46.860
It was so interesting, Brian, because they described light, their experiences of seeing light, almost verbatim as the children in Portugal and my participants.
01:02:48.680 --> 01:02:50.480
Even the quality of the light.
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.660
I had a participant who said, I know it's taken me a long time.
01:02:55.760 --> 01:02:57.320
They had to do an art piece for me.
01:02:57.840 --> 01:03:01.120
It's taken me a long time, but I can't find the right paint for the light.
01:03:02.700 --> 01:03:11.700
And so she said she got this pearlescent paint and they would describe it as so bright, it would blind you, but it didn't hurt my eyes.
01:03:12.900 --> 01:03:14.820
And so that was one of them.
01:03:15.140 --> 01:03:17.079
And then also the touch.
01:03:18.700 --> 01:03:31.720
So that for the participants who actually were touched by the apparition, there's that same kind of descriptions in the 18 counters from these case studies.
01:03:32.019 --> 01:03:32.800
John Mack wrote a book.
01:03:32.980 --> 01:03:34.260
I think he wrote a couple of them.
01:03:35.099 --> 01:03:41.059
And so that fascinated me to no end that the similarities.
01:03:42.120 --> 01:03:45.360
So it makes me wonder about the multidimensionality.
01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:48.539
Is it other dimensional?
01:03:49.200 --> 01:03:53.059
Are we seeing through the veil, so to speak?
01:03:53.860 --> 01:04:00.420
The same kind of thing with the cyclomantium is the portal, the mirror, opening the veil.
01:04:01.220 --> 01:04:06.620
In fact, I think once a mirror is used for that purpose, it needs to be covered and used for nothing else.
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:08.860
That's my belief.
01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:12.800
It's like you've opened the portal and you have to cover it too.
01:04:13.700 --> 01:04:15.260
To close it.
01:04:15.260 --> 01:04:16.579
Yeah, interesting.
01:04:16.860 --> 01:04:23.519
Yeah, that's my belief because yeah, you cover mirrors when people die.
01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:29.940
And there's different reasons that they do that and even back in time.
01:04:31.099 --> 01:04:42.660
So yeah, so to me, it's like the mirror that you use as a portal if you're doing cyclomantium work or mirror gazing for contact on the other side.
01:04:42.660 --> 01:04:45.640
You need to keep it covered and use it for only that.
01:04:46.320 --> 01:04:47.000
Yeah, interesting.
01:04:47.740 --> 01:04:51.420
So we talked about the other side.
01:04:51.640 --> 01:04:57.220
And so for someone that's in grief, because that's a large part of my audience, people who have lost someone.
01:04:57.960 --> 01:05:03.579
What does this research suggest for people that are saying, what does this mean to me?
01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:16.440
Well, I mean, it depends on, I mean, if they're in grief, the level of suffering from grief, like I said, I had two people with complicated grief or problem grief disorder.
01:05:18.140 --> 01:05:21.320
And one was profoundly transformed.
01:05:22.240 --> 01:05:31.980
The other was experienced transformation, but I wasn't as heavily affected by it because it wasn't so hugely profound.
01:05:32.700 --> 01:05:34.960
It was like a healing for the one person.
01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:40.260
The other was like an awakening for lack of a better way to describe it.
01:05:41.200 --> 01:05:53.320
But I think that we had lots of levels of grief symptoms, you know, like anger, sadness, you know, and all of them were reduced.
01:05:54.180 --> 01:06:03.400
So if a person is grieving and suffering from grief, especially if they're suffering over, you know, the typical, you should be over this by six months.
01:06:04.960 --> 01:06:07.640
I was like, there are no deadlines, okay.
01:06:09.260 --> 01:06:17.140
But if it is, you know, extended period of time where your life is being disrupted, or you're feeling sad all the time in your life.
01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:21.840
In fact, I think you did an article about when am I going to be field normal again?
01:06:23.360 --> 01:06:26.039
Yeah, it's that same kind of thing.
01:06:26.780 --> 01:06:33.000
And when they go through the psychomantium, they heal those, you know, they heal some part of them.
01:06:33.500 --> 01:06:37.400
So they feel at peace or they feel like they're so happy.
01:06:37.400 --> 01:06:42.000
They did that, they have a better understanding and they've reduced their grief symptoms.
01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:44.260
Yeah, if not eliminated them.
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:46.500
Yeah, that's what it's about.
01:06:46.720 --> 01:06:54.559
You know, the thing is that, you know, a lot of the facts you mentioned continuing bonds, because that's always been my approach.
01:06:54.820 --> 01:07:01.300
I don't see any other way that we can deal with their grief, you know, in a realistic healthy way.
01:07:01.740 --> 01:07:11.160
Because what people, everyone, whether you're a materialist or you're, you know, scientific, scientism, whatever, we all agree that the love doesn't die.
01:07:11.960 --> 01:07:13.500
Our love for that person continues.
01:07:14.559 --> 01:07:18.260
And I've heard many people say, you know, grief is love with no place to go.
01:07:19.240 --> 01:07:22.900
And as I've heard that, I'm like, but there is some place for it to go.
01:07:22.980 --> 01:07:23.940
We just don't know it.
01:07:24.120 --> 01:07:25.480
We haven't been given permission.
01:07:26.260 --> 01:07:30.740
So we've been told, you know, I can't, I don't have that person to express that love to anymore.
01:07:31.500 --> 01:07:32.980
And it's like, yeah, you still can.
01:07:33.620 --> 01:07:35.160
I think that's what relieves the symptoms.
01:07:36.059 --> 01:07:36.660
Right?
01:07:37.160 --> 01:07:37.280
Yeah.
01:07:37.460 --> 01:07:44.120
And I think that, again, this is where it comes into, we don't know what we're capable of.
01:07:46.019 --> 01:08:05.620
And the, where people are seeing apparitions of their deceased loved ones, and not just in the psychomantium, but, you know, there's just a lot of stories of grieving spouses who see their deceased spouse, like at the head of their bed or whatever, in a kind of a wispy way, ghost-like way.
01:08:05.620 --> 01:08:10.660
But they feel comforted because they know who it is, you know, that that person is common.
01:08:11.000 --> 01:08:12.519
They feel better about it.
01:08:13.079 --> 01:08:28.039
So these types of experiences that used to be considered, I mean, automatically as a psychotic experience or hallucination, gratefully now, are a little more accepted, especially in the newly bereaved.
01:08:29.340 --> 01:08:44.120
But it's still, you know, I think that, as long as people know what they can do, you know, with my book, my book is specifically about the psychomantium and people's experiences in the psychomantium.
01:08:44.480 --> 01:08:48.079
I talk about the different types of grief, which you have brought up too.
01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:51.740
I think one of the hardest ones is disenfranchised grief.
01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:56.440
But these are things that can be worked through.
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:00.340
Every type of grief can be worked through in the psychomantium.
01:09:01.240 --> 01:09:08.740
And it may even be too with that special EMDR. But people just don't know.
01:09:09.780 --> 01:09:10.760
They don't know.
01:09:11.100 --> 01:09:14.980
In fact, I belong to a Facebook group.
01:09:15.720 --> 01:09:17.800
Well, they believe in afterlife.
01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:19.960
I can't remember the name of it.
01:09:20.140 --> 01:09:21.039
Evidence of the afterlife.
01:09:21.260 --> 01:09:22.320
I make a proof of the afterlife.
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:26.739
But there are tons of grieving people in there.
01:09:27.800 --> 01:09:35.019
And they want so much to be able to talk to, see their lost loved ones.
01:09:36.619 --> 01:09:41.760
But it's like there's mediums in there and they'll make appointments with mediums and stuff.
01:09:42.920 --> 01:09:48.779
But it seems like most people probably don't even know about the EMDR part.
01:09:49.699 --> 01:09:52.239
I think mediums have been around just like the Oracle did.
01:09:53.140 --> 01:09:54.420
They've been around forever.
01:09:54.760 --> 01:09:56.340
So everybody knows about mediums.
01:09:57.220 --> 01:10:01.979
But they don't know about the other modalities that they can use to help them.
01:10:03.159 --> 01:10:07.720
So did I hear you say that you're working on a certification program for people?
01:10:08.979 --> 01:10:09.180
Okay.
01:10:09.779 --> 01:10:11.019
Yeah, I am.
01:10:11.399 --> 01:10:15.300
It's I started to put it together last summer.
01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:18.979
And I was going to have it a year long.
01:10:19.180 --> 01:10:23.760
I'm just hardcore because my whole thing is do no harm.
01:10:24.760 --> 01:10:30.399
And you have to, because obviously, the Psychoman team is not for everyone.
01:10:31.420 --> 01:10:47.519
You know, it's I mean, you really have to screen people because you don't want anybody who has a history of psychosis or anybody who's on special types and you know, anti psychotic medications or anything like that, because you don't want to trigger any kind of episode.
01:10:48.539 --> 01:10:50.838
So you have to be really discerning.
01:10:51.500 --> 01:10:55.979
And you also have to follow the protocol where you prep them.
01:10:56.479 --> 01:11:01.000
You're there with them, even though you may not be in the room, you're outside the door of the room that they're in.
01:11:01.539 --> 01:11:09.159
Then you debrief because the majority of the time, Brian, this is just like so classic.
01:11:09.380 --> 01:11:10.279
I have this in my book.
01:11:11.239 --> 01:11:16.639
When you open the flap to the Psychomanseum and they look up and they're like, nothing happened.
01:11:17.899 --> 01:11:22.759
They say that because they're going to an alter state and they don't remember anything.
01:11:24.039 --> 01:11:27.859
And so that's why the debrief is so important because we can ask them questions.
01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:33.719
And I ask them leading questions to get them to start talking about first steps.
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:35.819
And when they were in there, did you lower the light?
01:11:36.500 --> 01:11:39.460
And then it's like, yeah, I lowered the light.
01:11:39.779 --> 01:11:42.439
And when I did that, I saw there were some colors in the mirror.
01:11:43.819 --> 01:11:45.079
And then you take them further.
01:11:45.380 --> 01:11:47.739
You know, it's like, oh, yeah, that's right.
01:11:48.719 --> 01:11:50.759
There was a wolf that jumped out of the mirror.
01:11:52.979 --> 01:12:01.479
So these are things that you have to be because one is you can actually ruin the experience for someone.
01:12:01.679 --> 01:12:02.899
If it's not done correctly.
01:12:03.779 --> 01:12:06.739
And another is you can maybe even make the grief worse.
01:12:08.119 --> 01:12:09.838
So you really have to know what you're doing.
01:12:10.059 --> 01:12:17.199
And that's why it's like with me, I was the lead facilitator in the research and I did training for the facilitators.
01:12:17.839 --> 01:12:32.639
And so I'm really strict about that because I want and that's why the certification because I want to know that when they go out there to do the work that they're actually prepared to do it and they're going to do a really good job.
01:12:33.559 --> 01:12:35.359
Well, I hope this happens.
01:12:35.559 --> 01:12:42.460
It's just another tool in the toolkit that we can use to make that connection with the other side.
01:12:43.479 --> 01:12:44.819
We talked about mediums.
01:12:44.880 --> 01:12:45.659
Mediums are great.
01:12:45.939 --> 01:12:47.219
I work with mediums.
01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:49.739
Many readings are fantastic.
01:12:50.659 --> 01:12:54.939
But there's something about having that your own experience through a facilitated after-death communication.
01:12:55.519 --> 01:13:01.099
I've done meditations like that or the ROGT or something like this where you can have your own experience.
01:13:01.719 --> 01:13:03.099
I think that's next level.
01:13:03.519 --> 01:13:05.799
So I applaud you for what you're doing.
01:13:06.380 --> 01:13:08.000
We're coming to the end of our time.
01:13:08.839 --> 01:13:10.519
I want to thank you for being here.
01:13:11.079 --> 01:13:16.239
If you're okay with people reaching out to you, let people know how they can reach you and remind people of the name of your book.
01:13:16.939 --> 01:13:20.259
The name of the book is Gazing into the Afterlife.
01:13:23.649 --> 01:13:30.269
Using the mystery of the psychomandium to heal grief in all its forms.
01:13:30.269 --> 01:13:31.769
It's actually, yeah.
01:13:32.989 --> 01:13:36.130
So Gazing into the Afterlife is the title of the book.
01:13:37.170 --> 01:13:38.029
They can reach you.
01:13:38.389 --> 01:13:43.149
I have a website portal2healinggrief.com.
01:13:43.869 --> 01:13:45.710
It's all one word, Portal to Healing Grief.
01:13:46.489 --> 01:13:54.289
And on there, they can see what I have available and also be able to contact me through my website.
01:13:56.130 --> 01:13:58.229
Again, thank you for the work that you're doing.
01:13:58.649 --> 01:13:59.989
It's been a pleasure having you here today.
01:13:59.989 --> 01:14:01.049
Enjoy the rest of your afternoon.
01:14:01.710 --> 01:14:02.389
Thank you.
01:14:02.689 --> 01:14:03.589
Thank you so much.