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00:00:27.957Hello and welcome in everybody.
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00:00:37.661Welcome to another episode of OpsCast by MarketingOpscom, powered by all of you marketing operations professionals out there, the MoPros.
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00:00:40.655Today I'm your host, mike Rizzo.
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00:00:56.436I'm flying solo, I get to step in for the infamous and incredible Mr Michael Hartman, and unfortunately, naomi did have a conflict in the schedule because guess what, we are all busy marketing ops professionals and she had to go take care of some stuff.
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00:00:58.899So we do hope that she'll be back with us again soon.
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00:01:13.617But thank you for jumping in today joining us to talk about this important topic of what is referred to by our guest as the messy middle of the modern buyer's journey is Martin Piatczyk.
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00:01:21.280So Martin is the founder and president of Pinch Marketing, which is a B2B marketing and lead generation agency.
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00:01:45.030He's a marketing executive with 20 years of experience in hands-on planning and implementing of digital and conventional marketing strategies that exceed revenue targets in corporate and startup environments, and prior to founding Pinch, he held various marketing and marketing leadership roles across several companies and has also worked as a co-founder of a B2C semantic search company, which is awesome.
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00:01:47.037I've been around a few semantic search folks.
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00:01:50.218Martin, thank you for joining us today.
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00:01:53.560Thanks for having me, mike, and hello to the old EML pros.
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00:01:55.332Appreciate it.
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00:01:58.781We are excited to have you All right, so we are going to jump in.
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00:02:01.436It was kind of queued up right at the intro there.
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00:02:10.781Let's start with the obvious question what is the messy middle of the buyer's journey and how would you describe it versus other models of the buyer's journey?
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00:02:13.555Yeah, sounds good, mike, I'd love to jump into this.
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00:02:16.998So let me maybe start off by saying what it's not.
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00:02:19.213And I think we are.
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00:02:31.439I think we're all familiar from a marketing perspective around, you know, the consumer following this linear buyer's path right From awareness to interest to decision and finally purchase.
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00:02:41.641It's nice, it's clean and it goes from the step-by-step like a ladder and hopefully at the end of the day, you know, it finalizes with a nice, big, fat purchase.
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00:02:48.942However, what we've observed and it's not just me, you know, the messy middle actually comes from a study that was published by Google.
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00:02:52.427So they have a million data points to substantiate this.
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00:02:56.896But the model is no longer really that linear anymore.
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00:03:01.024It doesn't really reflect the current customer behavior.
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00:03:04.878So today buyers are much more dynamic.
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00:03:08.165It's a very non-linear process really.
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00:03:13.296I call the looping between all these phases, between exploration and evaluation.
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00:03:15.240So it's it's.
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00:03:18.814People no longer go from step by step, by state.
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00:03:21.262They jump between any of this.
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00:03:23.949So like I like to use this netflix analogy.
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00:03:28.841So you know, we all watch and love netflix, or maybe we hate it now because there's so much choice.
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00:03:31.667But if you think about this, you got to go into.
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00:03:33.673So how do we search for stuff these days.
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00:03:42.896You know, maybe I'm going to log into Netflix, I'm going to watch a couple trailers, then I'm going to stop there and I'm going to maybe read a Rotten Tomatoes article on the side.
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00:03:44.258Maybe I'm going to.
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00:03:49.503I just remember that a buddy of mine texted me a message about a movie or show that they really loved.
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00:03:52.086So it goes back and forth.
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00:03:57.814Right, I might do this multiple times before I make that decision.
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00:03:58.378What I really want to watch.
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00:04:01.250So I think this really is the true reflection of what the mess of metal is.
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00:04:04.741It's this idea of looping between all these different stages.
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00:04:11.242So what was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 might be 2, 3, 1, back to 3, back to 5.
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00:04:15.661So it's become much more complex than we ever anticipated to be.
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00:04:23.764Yeah, I have to agree, I mean, arguably, in a lot of ways it was kind of always complex.
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00:04:39.240I think, in particular in B2B, we tried to like, like, oversimplify, you know, the buyer's journey itself, and I think what's happening on the B2B side is certainly starting to show signs of exactly this.
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00:04:43.352What you're talking about, right, this messy middle On the B2B side.
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00:04:48.524I would say, you know, there probably was some linear nature in the past.
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00:05:08.446I agree with the notion, but I also, you know, think that there was quite a bit happening underneath the water, right, if you look at that duck that's swimming in the lake, you know people aren't necessarily like making, you know, super simple decisions.
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00:05:16.073They are, you know, texting their friends or placing a phone call to their parents or their, you know, whoever their, their close constituents, right To get a sense of like, hey, what did you use?
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00:05:20.291You've got kids, you know, did you buy a special type of sunscreen?
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00:05:24.178And you know, and the journey kind of goes from there.
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00:05:51.634Question for you, just in general, as you think about the messy middle by the way, like I, prior to us getting on today, I was, like I swear, one of those other than Google, and maybe it was Google because you called attention to it, but I swear that some of some publication Gartner, forrester, you name it just like recently published something about this right, like how, how the buyer's journey is really complex and kind of just flat.
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00:06:00.557It's just this bouncing around of all these things, this messy middle, that we're talking about, but I couldn't find the visual to support it.
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00:06:02.182I think it's just.
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00:06:05.946If you think about it, it's probably just one messy big cloud with a lot of lines in between.
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00:06:15.830Right, I completely agree, messy is right and you know, I, I use the netflix model because I think that every you could all understand it.
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00:06:22.474But from a b2b perspective, I think what the culprit is behind all this is, you know, I want to say somebody broke the internet.
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00:06:31.602You know, I think before we are used to going into the store and dealing with a salesperson, to to you knowmortar type locations, to figure out what the decision is.
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00:06:33.777It's become much more complex than that.
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00:06:40.601People, buyers, we have all these tools available to us how we can educate ourselves.
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00:06:49.798We read blogs, we go check out social media, we read reviews, we talk to our friends and peers, we may be part of some events that we go to.
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00:06:58.403So the platforms that are available to us as consumers have become infinite.
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00:06:59.913Right, and I think it's so.
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00:07:16.263The digital realm made it essentially much more complex and I think buyers today they're much more educated as a result of that and they will look for that information, not just about what they want to purchase, but about the brand that they're transacting with.
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00:07:20.686So this is really, really critical to understand this complexity going forward.
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00:07:27.801Yeah, yeah, and I think you touched on things that I think I will probably unpack and another set of a segment here.
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00:07:45.922But, you know, this idea of the trust in the brand and the relationship that you build with that, right, I, I, I totally agree, I was gonna, I was gonna sort of tee up or ask the question from, from your side, your, your opinion on, really, is it the technology that's influenced the?
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00:07:48.698You know, I think it's the access to information, right?
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00:08:03.253You know, of course, when we think about the buyer's journey, before our to your point, we were trained to say, okay, I'm going to walk in, I'm going to talk to somebody, I'm going to get their advice, and then I'm going to make a decision on which thing I'm going to purchase and walk out the door with.
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00:08:17.379And so our user behavior previously was I'm going to go to a website, I want to talk to one of the reps, they're going to tell me about their thing, and if it's good for me, I'm going to do another website, go to another store, check that out and then eventually make a decision on what I want to buy.
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00:08:23.182And it seems like today it's really perpetuated by the access to information.
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00:08:24.831It's just that much easier.
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00:08:33.798So, with that in mind, let's talk about some of the technology or process that you feel like we need to have in place to understand the buyer's journey.
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00:08:39.583And then you know we can't escape it Like is AI somehow impacting any of this?
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00:08:41.785And you know how do you think that it is?
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00:08:45.610Yeah, good question, mike.
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00:09:20.021I think that we especially I think, for the marketing ops folks out there it's so critical to understand that the complexity of this buying journey also complicates with the technologies that we use there's no question about that to maybe working within data platforms, data lakes, dpm systems, anything that allows us to not only collect but make sense of all this data that's out there, especially if it's being supposed to be captured at various stages of this journey.
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00:09:21.756It's much more complicated.
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00:09:32.694So I don't want to specifically call any particular technologies by name, but I think this complexity probably makes the infrastructure setup also more complex.
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00:09:57.579So we can no longer follow this linear path right and saying, oh yeah, here's a nurture I'm going to build out in MailChimp and from email one to two to three to four, it probably requires tools that allow us to capture not only the internal tools that we can control, like maybe the email platforms, maybe the website, maybe other things, but now it's the third-party data that we need to be able to bring into the mix.
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00:10:07.682So maybe the social media interactions, maybe third-party review sites, tracking content on other people's sites, which of course, makes it much more difficult.
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00:10:11.000So I think integrations with those disparate systems become critical.
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00:10:20.137So you know it might take into consideration not only the current platforms you have but how to integrate it, maybe with tools like Zapier or something like that, where it allows us to connect those dots.
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00:10:24.961And then you know, how the heck do you make sense out of all of this, right?
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00:10:28.399You know you have all this data coming from multiple directions at you.
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00:10:34.713I think that's where I think you know we talked AI.
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00:10:35.054You mentioned AI.
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00:10:38.562I think that's where AI can really make you know, make some sense of this complexity.
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00:10:48.557You know we as humans, we, by looking for these, these nuances and this linear, you know connections, we might miss some things that AI might be able to pick up.
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00:10:51.496Before we might have 10 data points.
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00:10:53.973Now we're going to have 5,000 points.
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00:11:09.476If we have the ability to put the AI on top of all that, that might really allow us to make more sense out of it and figure out how to build models that are a little bit more sensical in this very complex structure.
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00:11:15.126And I think AI has the ability perhaps to even make some sense of it.
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00:11:22.342Maybe some predictive modeling where it allows you to, even in this messy middle, to help us understand.
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00:11:30.595Okay, like if this person did this and that there is a higher likelihood that they will also do that, and that's really critical for us to understand.
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00:11:34.852And it's much more difficult to do so, I think, manually and maybe crunching the data in Excel.
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00:11:38.401I think AI really can shine in this kind of scenario.
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00:11:42.677Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely agree there.
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00:11:57.863I think what's interesting about just the sort of like you know we'll call it the onslaught and ability to sort of like capture data, is it really at the core of this is we're seeing it particularly in B2B.
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00:12:04.291Like B2C arguably has been doing marketing operations, they just they've been calling it something else for a lot longer than we have right.
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00:12:07.435They call it lifecycle marketing and these other types of terms.
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00:12:31.826B2b is like stepping into a world where it's trying to set up some of the things that you talked about your data lakes and your data warehouses to try to create those sort of unique IDs that tie back to a buyer's journey and then create the opportunity for AI to potentially show, you know, a propensity right to take the next step.
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00:13:40.850There was this wonderful session that Ari from NVIDIA presented on at Spring Fling just a few weeks ago around the propensity for anything, and it was really the same sort of talk that we're discussing here and it's this idea that you know, really, at any given point, there's multiple potential buyer groups, multiple potential things that are weighing in on the business's decision to engage with the brand, and it's just about understanding their propensity to take action for the next step, right, um, and I think it's forcing us I, I, you know, I, I'd love sort of to go down this, this little rabbit hole for a minute when we think about, um, you know, being a little bit tool agnostic in this conversation, right now, the architecture is changing, right, like, fundamentally, it feels like it's forcing us to, like, start with the data versus starting with the tools, which I'm super excited about, because all of us in marketing costs, we're like hey, here's this tool that we bought and we're like great, what do you want to do with this?
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00:13:58.718Yeah, so you know, I think the question that I'm sort of getting to is like so, you know, I think the question that I'm sort of getting to is like what is the strategic impact that we can now bring to the table?
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00:14:15.650When you think about, like, as you engage with your clients, right, and you're trying to help them understand how to make sense of this messy middle, you know what are some of the things that you like to talk about and, in terms of, like, helping to paint a picture of the art of the possible, and then, is it changing the way in which you're approaching your conversations with your customers today?
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00:14:18.274yeah, that's a good question, I think.
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00:14:42.067Um, yes and yes on all the fronts you've discussed, but let's start with your audience.
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00:14:50.432Marketing ops being an owner of a can argue this one is that have been seen as a support mechanism to a lot of the marketing functions and maybe sales function.
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00:15:00.363Sometimes they take hybrid roles and I think this is a huge opportunity, I think, for marketing ops folks to really become the strategic partners to the business, right?
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00:15:34.225So, rather than looking at and you know, taking the direction from others, saying, hey, set this up for me, set up this infrastructure Now, I think they have a seat at the table, so to speak, to help build these flexible systems, to help wrangle this complex data and support, really support this consistent presence and, by building this infrastructure, that support to help to understand and influence buyers right During this complex, messy reality, right?
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00:15:59.279So they're no longer just a support mechanism, they are the enabler, and I think this is an opportunity, I think, for marketing ops to see it as such, to really help enable and help accelerate the sales and marketing initiatives that I think companies are struggling with, because I think that they're still stuck with the old models.
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00:16:12.189Help them by building the right piping the infrastructure, the data purview and converting that into intelligence that can really, really help to accelerate those business initiatives.
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00:16:14.552So I think that's in a nutshell.
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00:16:24.670And there's a few things we can discuss in more detail, but that's kind of at the highest level.
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00:16:25.875Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you are singing.
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00:16:38.365People are going to think that I planted you onto this show Because you are totally.
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00:17:12.821It's my 20 bucks, mike, come on like singing the song that I really like to sing, which is how can we get these organizations to start to understand that modern go-to-market technology is really broadly, your go-to-market motion is enabled by various capabilities across many solutions and, at the end of the day, it's a product in and of itself and the opportunity to to your point, as I've been sort of pushing out into the wild too, which was you know for for our listeners.
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00:17:17.122Martin and I didn't have a chance to talk prior to this, so I'm hearing for the first time.
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00:17:45.125I promise I didn't plant them on the show, but I definitely have said many time over like, hey, you are ultimately the strategist and the key enabler for the go-to-market tech stack as a product, and building that roadmap and helping the organization take their goals and apply them down to capabilities and build a roadmap that supports their continued endeavors, because every business has a different hypothesis on how they want to go to market.
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00:17:48.324Right, some do ABM, some do SEO, da-da-da-da-da.
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00:18:07.187But the enablement factor and the underlying data principles that are there really fundamentally come down to your product manager and you need to create a user story and journeys and features and functionality and release it and enable people to leverage the products that you've acquired to go to market.
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00:18:13.434But I think to try to get into some of those capabilities, why don't you share?
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00:18:24.875I know we want to dig in a little bit on what are some of the nuanced types of examples where a marketing ops person can step in and help an organization.
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00:18:32.302Maybe think about the art of the possible as it comes to these technologies, like, maybe break down some of those capabilities for us.
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00:18:38.253Yeah, that sounds good and I think you touched on that a little bit, mike, when you said we haven't really had an opportunity to chat earlier.
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00:18:41.915I think the key here is that we got to be flexible right In this conversation.
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00:18:51.549We got to be agile and I think that's exactly the number one thing that I think I want to send the message to the ML pros is that we got to be flexible.
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00:19:25.692So you have to figure out how to implement these flexible workflows right, which are trying to adapt to this iterative process, how buyers think about buying, allowing multiple entry and exit points throughout these campaigns right, you know, if you think about if it is a linear path, but you have all these like one, two, three, four, five, six, you know, sometimes you know somebody might stumble on an old blog article that you know you've written and they'll completely miss the email nurture that you were supposed and they'll completely miss the email nurture that you were supposed to send to them.
00:19:25.692 -->
00:19:55.305So you can't control necessarily all these entry points, but what you can do is create this adaptive workflow that allows people to enter and exit where they choose, and I think you can help them define this path without defining the path right, which is what sounds doesn't make sense to some degree, but maybe it's this idea of we can create a playground with all the different toys in it rather than building a railroad track, right?
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00:20:02.520So when allowing the buyer to choose how they want to use it, I think that's really the key here, and you know we talked about.
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00:20:05.327You know the multiple entry points and you know we talked about.
00:20:05.327 -->
00:20:10.202You know the multiple entry points and with this philosophy, that the customer is in the driver's seat, not you.
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00:20:18.315So as much as we like them to be on this highway in the left lane, chances are they're somewhere else and we need to accommodate that.
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00:20:23.600So that's number one I'd say yeah, no, it's funny.
00:20:23.681 -->
00:20:27.023Earlier in our discussion I actually had that same sort of.
00:20:27.023 -->
00:20:40.887I mean, you described it as like buildings, like defining a path without truly putting them on one, and I think for a marketing ops person listening to this, that makes actually a ton of sense to me.
00:20:40.887 -->
00:20:46.481For an executive who might be tuning into this and be like what the fuck are you talking about?
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00:20:51.369You're not making any sense, um, and that's okay, right?
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00:21:03.424Uh, that's exactly why you want to hire people into the roles and get them to help you figure this stuff out, because it is about engineering, um, an environment with the intention to guide somebody.
00:21:03.945 -->
00:21:39.923And and it's these subtle cues that you know, if you're kind of aware of the potential sort of the propensity to move sort of through the funnel right, there might be these blog posts that are engineered to be more of a discovery mechanism and you might have these other resources that are kind of a little bit deeper in the layer, but you're aware of the fact that they might want to sort of jump around and you have to engineer that with the intention of look, I want to create as much information gathering opportunity for this customer as we possibly can, but then I need to be able to figure out what they're doing.
00:21:46.095 -->
00:21:55.626They're doing, and so I think in some of the examples that were sort of outlined on our document that we're talking through today and some of the talking points we wanted to get to, I think it comes down to signals right Like there's this whole market that's.
00:21:55.626 -->
00:22:05.646It's like kind of frustrating right now with the number of like players that are in the space around signals and real time data, but I do think that there's an opportunity here.
00:22:05.646 -->
00:22:10.447Do you kind of want to unpack what maybe some of those opportunities are?
00:22:10.875 -->
00:22:17.426You know, Vani, you said it earlier right, you try to minimize the what-the-fuck moments from your management team, right?
00:22:17.426 -->
00:22:22.280And I think data can play a really, really important part in that, can play a really, really important part in that.
00:22:22.280 -->
00:22:38.795And so maybe, before you jump into building out these models, I think the first thing you might want to also do is create a system that allows you to monitor and collect all these different you could call them signals.
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00:22:59.485So how can you collect all this data, hopefully in real time, and then looking at that, observing that, maybe leveraging some AI tools to figure out, hey, where are these people on that journey and what are the steps that they're taking?
00:22:59.485 -->
00:23:09.535Or at least trying to leverage anything that you know of the buyer, maybe talking to the people who are good conduit to those customers and saying, hey, how did they find out about us?
00:23:09.535 -->
00:23:11.341What steps did they take?
00:23:11.341 -->
00:23:14.704And then trying to mimic that and trying to collect all this data.
00:23:14.815 -->
00:23:27.403So this could be your internal data sources, or maybe your website traffic, the Google Analytics of the world, your social engagement, maybe through integrations, your email platforms, and then integrations, your email platforms, and then you have, you know, third-party data.
00:23:27.463 -->
00:23:28.225Right, you can have.
00:23:28.225 -->
00:23:34.326How does the maybe third-party data like, maybe sales navigators of the world?
00:23:34.326 -->
00:24:11.625But then you married with the Bambora's intent data and then marry all that with what you already know of these people in your own CRM platforms and then, once you have that, the sensing or listing mechanism set up, then it can really allow you to leverage the data, hopefully in real time, to really put the decision making on steroids right, and that really, I think, gives you a lot of the ammunition to go back to your bosses and the business leaders to say, hey, the reason we're doing this is because this is what the data actually tells us and it's not as linear as you perhaps thought.
00:24:11.625 -->
00:24:17.387So you might have to challenge their thinking a little bit, and leveraging data is the best tool to do so.
00:24:17.387 -->
00:24:26.786So I think that's how I think about it, but I'm not sure what your thoughts on that, Mike, you know your audience best, but this is kind of what my observation.
00:24:28.237 -->
00:24:29.559No, no, I think it's spot on.
00:24:29.559 -->
00:25:09.633You know, unfortunately, like, for better or worse, data has been the center of the conversation for at least the last decade and it's become even more prominent in the discussions and sort of the age of AI, but I do think that it's, in some ways, I feel like it's a chicken and egg problem with leadership, right, if you don't have a system in place to capture information, just like broadly capture data, whether it is first party sort of web traffic data, or first party data at the CRM level.
00:25:09.633 -->
00:25:22.239What's fundamentally true is that, like there has to be something there at the bottom right, this net, if you were to create a visual to be able to capture that stuff and then eventually start to find ways to make sense of it.
00:25:22.239 -->
00:25:33.756And so you know, as you make the argument for how to go implement these things or the why to your business partners, your leadership team, etc.
00:25:33.756 -->
00:25:49.714I think it's really about I want to enable our team to be able to show up in the ways we want them to show up and, ultimately, I want to make sure that we are providing the right sort of experience for our customers during their buyer's journey.
00:25:49.714 -->
00:25:54.606Right, because we fundamentally understand it is going to be all over the place Right now.
00:25:54.606 -->
00:25:57.261We need a system to be able to capture all of that information.
00:25:57.261 -->
00:26:05.997I mean just very concretely, martin, look at a tool like Gong or any other type of listening device, right, like for recorded calls.
00:26:06.959 -->
00:26:12.878When you start to capture that information, the next phase of this is, like what can I learn?
00:26:12.878 -->
00:26:14.285Like start asking the questions.
00:26:14.285 -->
00:26:22.662Right, like executives can turn to your marketing ops team and say what can we learn from the insights that we're gathering from these, from this net where we've caught all this data?
00:26:22.662 -->
00:26:33.098And you can go back from this call recording on Gong or whatever Fathom you name it, and start to extrapolate, like really, how did they find us?
00:26:33.098 -->
00:26:34.105What were their pain points?
00:26:34.105 -->
00:26:35.314What are the things that they cared about?
00:26:35.314 -->
00:26:42.138Because then you want to go pass it back up the funnel to find a way to create that consistent sort of experience.
00:26:42.138 -->
00:26:51.898Right, and I think that that is one of the really exciting things about being in marketing operations is that you get to be a steward of the brand in a lot of ways.
00:26:51.898 -->
00:26:55.406So I would love your thoughts on that piece of this too.
00:26:56.134 -->
00:26:57.557Yeah, stewardship of the brand.
00:26:57.557 -->
00:27:07.152I'm going to get there in a second, but something you said really struck me, and the reality can be daunting.
00:27:07.152 -->
00:27:15.346It might be difficult for the marketing ops person to get all the tools in the toolkit that they might need.
00:27:15.346 -->
00:27:32.225So, using an example like you used with Gong, I think it's critical and I think on some level, it might require to reframe or retrain, like the SDR, bdr functions or the AE functions, to make sure that they ask the right questions about how did you find out about us?
00:27:32.225 -->
00:27:33.586What have you read?
00:27:33.586 -->
00:27:34.469Where did you read it?
00:27:34.469 -->
00:27:35.549Who did you hear it from?
00:27:35.549 -->
00:27:36.711What got you there?
00:27:36.711 -->
00:27:42.161Obviously, it's not supposed to be a polling question or anything like that, but it's like through the conversations.
00:27:42.161 -->
00:27:48.226Hopefully, and now, with the extraction of all this data and AI, maybe it will give you all the data points that you might need.
00:27:48.226 -->
00:27:50.829So that's a great starting point.
00:27:50.829 -->
00:27:52.171I really love what you said there.
00:27:54.994 -->
00:27:56.317But, yes, I think about stewardship of brand.
00:27:56.317 -->
00:28:05.968I think it's because the customers take this very wild journey with us as a brand.
00:28:05.968 -->
00:28:19.826We have to be consistent and I think marketing ops folks have a unique opportunity to make sure, be that steward of that brand, to make sure that you're always showing up consistently in the marketplace.
00:28:19.826 -->
00:28:30.306Not only that you're visible, but you're also consistent, and I think this visibility means to also sell the narrative that you got to use various channels.
00:28:30.306 -->
00:28:34.583You got to meet the buyers where they are at, not necessarily what you think they should be at.
00:28:34.583 -->
00:28:38.923That will help you with define you know defining what the decision making process are.
00:28:40.247 -->
00:28:44.437So I think the always on marketing concept is really critical.
00:28:44.437 -->
00:28:52.748So forget about one-time email blast campaigns, forget about this quick and dirty advertisement campaign.
00:28:52.748 -->
00:28:54.510No, start thinking more broadly.
00:28:54.510 -->
00:29:08.992Think about this evergreen, always-on marketing campaign that can be accessed throughout time, throughout different ways, in different entry and extra points.
00:29:08.992 -->
00:29:13.066It could be through content, advertising, thought leadership pieces offline, online is really, really critical.
00:29:13.066 -->
00:29:33.595So I think you, as a marketing ops person, have an opportunity to really tighten that grip and making sure that, when you see these mistakes that I think we make in all marketing, this luring lead generation campaign that will last three days make a recommendation.
00:29:33.595 -->
00:29:36.203That's probably not the approach that you want.
00:29:36.203 -->
00:29:50.300So content must be easy to find, regardless if it's a blog article or review or whatever, and then figuring out like where is it that you need to collect all this data.
00:29:50.300 -->
00:30:04.664So the challenge of this is um to to think about it from a long-term perspective rather than just like this immediate result and finding the balance spot it's's and it's so hard.
00:30:05.266 -->
00:30:44.482Um, you know, I think we could pause here for a moment and say just like, like, hang on this topic for a moment and say, hey, the funny thing is, um, um, I guess I'll kind of hark back to last year's kerfuffle that I sort of accidentally, intentionally started, I guess Sort of kind of, sort of kind of I said marketing ops isn't marketing, and the whole of our community and a number of the people on the interwebs, particularly LinkedIn, were kind of like you know what are you talking about?
00:30:44.482 -->
00:30:44.942Did?
00:30:44.962 -->
00:30:45.943you get booed yeah.
00:30:46.004 -->
00:30:47.385Did you get shamed?
00:30:47.385 -->
00:31:08.720And they were like it's literally in the name, from sort of where I sit and what I see in the conversations that were coming through and filtering through that discussion was the the wild vacillation between you're crazy.
00:31:08.720 -->
00:31:35.665It's absolutely marketing to those exact same individuals coming back to me personally and sometimes publicly, but personally for sure a week and a half or two weeks later and saying actually, maybe, not, maybe marketing in the traditional sense really is marketing and marketing ops is something else and it's more than just marketing and we've touched a lot on that today.
00:31:35.665 -->
00:31:44.303I think at a minimum we've talked about understanding that marketers in the marketing operation role think like a marketer.
00:31:44.303 -->
00:31:50.482They have to be broadly sort of skilled across disciplines to have a fundamental understanding of go-to-market motion.
00:31:50.482 -->
00:31:57.435They have a new and profound understanding for how data and database and object orientation works.
00:31:58.276 -->
00:32:38.401Then they have to understand the ramifications of ROI and the financial side of things and how to try to tie any level of investment that you're making in your go-to-market motion back to some type of success metric and then ultimately they're trying to manage all of this stuff and be compliant and make sure that the buyer's journey is sufficient and reflective of your brand in a way that shows up consistently and it's safely brand, safely right Opt-ins you know there's no spamming, like don't do a blast campaign as a one-off and you become this individual that straddles the line between marketing, quote, unquote, as you said.
00:32:38.401 -->
00:32:57.372You said, hey, if you hear that they're about to talk about doing a campaign that's going to last last three days, maybe suggest that there's a different path to go down and and I think that's right, right, like you become kind of a marketer, uh, but really you're a strategist, you are a strategic partner, right?
00:32:58.333 -->
00:32:59.094like I don't know.
00:32:59.094 -->
00:33:00.995You know what it's interesting you say there.
00:33:00.995 -->
00:33:15.101I think I've been thinking as you were talking about this is that marketing ops folks can be great strategists, but it's rare that a great strategist is also a great marketing ops person.
00:33:15.101 -->
00:33:26.559The way I think about marketing ops people and the evolution of the role is that you've become we've become marketing scientists in a sense.
00:33:26.559 -->
00:33:34.761Right, it's not, but yes, I think the understanding of the strategy is critical to see, to really understand who your buyers are.
00:33:34.789 -->
00:33:50.413So don't just walk in blindly as just a technical support person, but walk in as that scientist who understands your business, understands your goals, understands the overarching marketing strategy, maybe your North Star and all that understanding your clients or customers.
00:33:50.413 -->
00:34:07.921But because you have the tools, you can apply the scientific method to it by not only understanding but then adapting all this information, all this intel you have to helping evolve that journey that customer takes with you.
00:34:07.921 -->
00:34:10.479So I think that's an interesting opportunity.
00:34:10.479 -->
00:34:15.822So I understand why you got hand slapped that ops people are not marketers.
00:34:15.822 -->
00:34:32.214But I think to make a great marketing operations person is that if you really keep that strategic hat on at all times, you will be a better marketing ops person, because you have the tools to really give you the ammunition to have the tough conversations.
00:34:32.214 -->
00:34:44.112So maybe this is how I'll attempt to reframe it a little bit Become marketing scientists, you know, and we have the power marketing scientists, you know, and we have the power.
00:34:44.132 -->
00:34:44.573Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:44.573 -->
00:34:56.790I think at the end of it, people really felt that it resonated, it created the right conversation for our space, which is a lot of what we're talking about today on this episode with you, and that it is marketing.
00:34:56.790 -->
00:34:58.413Ops is more than just marketing.
00:34:58.413 -->
00:35:38.707It's about so much more than that, and I think really, all of this discussion today has continued to sort of like again, folks, I didn't plant Martin here, he's just reiterating a lot of the stuff that I'm really excited about for our category, um, and I and I hope that, uh, in general, you've sort of thought through, maybe how to reframe your role or how to have different conversations and really try to step into your whether it's a consulting engagement or your businesses in general, your business partners and your executive teams, with a hey, I'm here to help.
00:35:38.707 -->
00:35:40.216That's scientific method.
00:35:40.216 -->
00:35:41.295I love that idea.
00:35:41.295 -->
00:35:44.394That's a great shout out and sort of reframing.
00:35:45.036 -->
00:36:23.716Um, and you are a great like the great enabler for supporting a go-to-market motion and, as you come in, just be curious, like the like the number one thing, martin, that we've seen in our sort of anecdotal and actual data trend, like points from, like our annual research, for example, is that curiosity tends to be the thing that, like, is the number one sort of trait quote unquote of a marketing ops professional, and I think, for those of you listening that aren't a practicing marketing ops professional, I hope this sheds a little bit of light on why you want to work with somebody in this role.
00:36:24.838 -->
00:36:38.297The other skills that you might have as a digital marketer, as an executive sales leader, a customer success rep your skills are amazing and we don't have those, but we would love to find ways to.
00:36:38.297 -->
00:36:43.146I mean, I can't say that for everybody, right, but in many cases we are.
00:36:43.146 -->
00:36:46.052It is a better together story.
00:36:46.052 -->
00:36:53.635So, like, start to partner up with the people that are holding these roles, or go find them in your organization.
00:36:53.635 -->
00:36:56.961We are getting close to time here, martin.
00:36:56.961 -->
00:36:59.352I don't want to like leave anything on the table.
00:36:59.352 -->
00:37:04.199Do you have any other thoughts or things that we need to make sure that this audience hears today?
00:37:05.601 -->
00:37:08.671I think we've said it all, but I mean something that you just said.
00:37:08.711 -->
00:37:44.533I think this I want to treat this as an opportunity to also call out not only the very talented marketing ops people out there, but this is an opportunity with all the new tools out there, like ai, I think we there's a little bit of angst in the marketplace of what does it mean to be a marketer these days, and I think all the different roles within marketing and I think for ops I think this is, you know, navigating this new messy journey that you know our customers are on can be a great opportunity to be, to really level up, become more strategic partners to the business.
00:37:44.693 -->
00:38:34.461And I think, if I had to guess, you know, with AI, the AI may will make it probably easier on the tactical aspect of the job, maybe the build out of some of those workflows, but how you think it from a global perspective, you know, to really truly understand how to translate those buyer emotions into something that has structure and infrastructure around it that supports those flexible systems and really making sense of all this complex data is going to be really critical and I think that's an opportunity and I would love to see that and I'm surprised how many times I go into clients and I look under the hood of where they are at in their marketing ops readiness and I could tell you that it's sad sometimes.
00:38:34.461 -->
00:38:42.762I understand that small players don't really have a good structure in place, but even the big players it's a bit of an afterthought sometimes.
00:38:42.762 -->
00:38:47.161So this, I think, can really really be quite impactful for the role going forward.
00:38:47.610 -->
00:38:48.973Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
00:38:48.973 -->
00:38:53.923It's really an exciting time to be in this space in general.
00:38:53.923 -->
00:39:03.182There's introduction of yet another set of new buzzwords all around go-to-market architecture, go-to-market engineering, and dah, dah, dah, dah.
00:39:03.182 -->
00:39:16.319Um, at the end of the day, you, in a marketing ops role, have a tremendous opportunity in front of you and, uh, and I'm really excited and, yeah, I don't think I could have said it any better.
00:39:16.319 -->
00:39:18.296So, martin, thank you for for sharing that.
00:39:18.296 -->
00:39:20.080Um, all right folks, we for sharing that.
00:39:20.080 -->
00:39:26.766All right folks, we, yeah, likewise, the episode is coming to a close here.
00:39:26.766 -->
00:39:32.825I want to take the time to say, martin, thank you for joining us today.
00:39:32.825 -->
00:39:39.317If our audience wants to connect with you or reach out to ask some more questions about the messy middle, where might they best find you?
00:39:41.011 -->
00:39:47.419Probably easiest on LinkedIn, but if you want to check out our website, it's probably easiest.
00:39:47.419 -->
00:39:50.677Versus my last name, the spelling is complicated.
00:39:50.677 -->
00:39:53.057So just check out pinchmarketing.
00:39:53.057 -->
00:39:57.659That's where we reside and if you reach out through that, it's probably the easiest way to connect.
00:39:57.659 -->
00:40:05.662So you can just mention this conversation and I'd love to help out and have a conversation with whoever needs to learn a little bit more about this.
00:40:05.982 -->
00:40:06.824Cool, awesome.
00:40:06.824 -->
00:40:12.862You heard that folks, so make sure to mention it, because we want the proper credit for Attribution.
00:40:12.862 -->
00:40:13.935And how'd you hear about us?
00:40:15.633 -->
00:40:16.658I love that Attribution.
00:40:17.071 -->
00:40:18.755See, it's just like I'm tired In life All right.
00:40:22.030 -->
00:40:25.979Well, thank you, as as always, to everybody for listening.
00:40:25.979 -->
00:40:29.699For those of you who are out there, we really really appreciate you being a part of this.
00:40:29.699 -->
00:40:36.478I did have a few folks reach out recently and say thank you to us for hosting the show.
00:40:36.478 -->
00:40:38.121We appreciate that greatly.
00:40:38.121 -->
00:40:42.723In that vein, if you enjoyed this episode, please let us know.
00:40:42.723 -->
00:40:44.792We are shouting into the void.
00:40:44.792 -->
00:40:47.298We get to see your downloads, but that's about all we get.
00:40:47.720 -->
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00:40:57.500 -->
00:41:06.134So please remember to rate, review and subscribe and if you yourself want to be a guest, as always, you can reach out to us.
00:41:06.134 -->
00:41:09.863You can either go to marketingopscom and go to the contact form.
00:41:09.863 -->
00:41:28.374If you visit your profile marketingopscom slash profile there's a widget on the right hand side where you can request to join us as a guest on ops cast, or you can, or you can just DM any one of us Michael, Naomi or myself and we will try to get you scheduled Until next time.
00:41:28.374 -->
00:41:30.080Really appreciate you all listening.
00:41:30.080 -->
00:41:31.253You have a good rest of your day.
00:41:31.253 -->
00:41:33.220Bye everybody, Bye everyone.
