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Thank you.
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Hello and welcome to the third episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I'm here as always with my partner in crime, Ian Wilkes.
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Hello, Ian.
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Hello, Jim.
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Welcome, welcome.
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We're off and running and as we were talking about what we wanted to talk about in this week's podcast, we were discussing the fact that very often these kinds of podcasts and even our own episodes are We get into all of the things that are frustrating with the church, all of the things that the church is doing wrong to some degree.
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And we thought it might be appropriate to turn that on its head and talk about some of the things that the church is doing right.
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Because I think one of the reasons why both of us had been attracted to the church, why you joined the church as a young man, And why I've stayed in the church throughout my life is because there is a great deal of good that the church does.
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And the critics of the church don't necessarily want to give the church credit for a lot of that, but I think it's worth exploring and discussing some of the specifics in the way the church benefits people and how the church is of great benefit to the community at large.
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And the church is feeling, I think, a lot of pressure in that regard, because the amount of money that the church has has come to light, and the amount of money that the church uses to do humanitarian efforts and those sorts of things is a relatively small percentage of that.
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And I remember in the October of 2022 conference, President Oaks stood up and listed$900 million worth of humanitarian efforts that the church had made in the previous year.
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And$900 million is an awful lot of money, but in comparison to$100 billion, or even$150 billion, which are the estimates of the amount of liquid assets that the church has, it's to some degree a drop in the bucket.
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So I think part of this discussion, maybe I'm backing away from what I said when I said, okay, we're only going to be positive.
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It would be easy, I think, to spend this hour focused on how much more the church ought to be doing.
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And I think that's a fair question.
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But at the same time, I want to focus on what they are doing and how much good they've been able to do, regardless of how much money is being spent.
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if that makes any sense.
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What has been your experience with this in your own relationship to the church?
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Sure.
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First, I'm very pleased that we're doing this.
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You know, you and I have talked about doing a podcast focusing on all the good that the church does.
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There's a great deal or a great volume of negative information out there, as you know, about the church from multiple sources.
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It can be extremely vicious.
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Much of it, you could argue, is justified.
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There's a lot of it, I think, is perhaps not justified, depending on who you talk to and their experience.
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It appears on lots of different issues that the church does have a credibility problem.
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Its history, its policy of leadership, financial, it seems like there's problems everywhere you look.
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And it's very easy to get bogged down into all the negative issues that the church has.
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And actually, for good reason.
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I think there's a lot of legitimate concerns that people have with the church.
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But the church has done extraordinary good.
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And I do want to get into that, into this podcast.
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In my research, Jim, I couldn't find a podcast that focused purely on all the positive things that the church had done.
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If it exists, I don't know where it is.
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I certainly can't find it, I think.
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And so, you know, context and background and personal experience are really important, I think, in this podcast.
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I go back to a few years now, maybe 13 years ago, I think, when as a state presidency, we were set apart by Elder Oaks and Elder Cook.
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And I made...
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I actually made notes of that meeting, those meetings that we had.
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I also made notes, no one told me not to make notes, of the actual setting apart when Elder Oaks laid his hands, Elder Cook laid his hands upon my head.
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And I remember the words, many of the words at least, and some of the words were that we or I was tasked with laying the foundation of the church in this particular area where we reside.
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and to bring the church out of obscurity and out of darkness.
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He kind of half-referenced or quoted Doctrine and Covenants section 1, verse 30.
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And so in that blessing and the subsequent training, Elder Cook and Elder Oaks talked about at least two major themes, two major focus areas.
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And this came into the blessing as well.
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One of them was hastening the work, so accelerating, advancing the work.
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There were references...
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in the blessing pertaining to that, and also the references during the meetings and the training sessions, posts setting apart.
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And the other one was bringing the church out of obscurity.
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But I think the challenge that the, and again, having the spotlight placed upon the church, I remember numerous meetings as a state presidency to see what we could do more effectively, more efficiently to bring the church out of obscurity in this particular region where we live.
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And that included engaging with what the general authority described as opinion leaders.
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This is establishing relationships with influential people that reside in our area.
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And there's a lot of discussion training around that.
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But what's happened since then, and probably certainly prior to that, but certainly since then, the church has...
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By the way, this is a time of...
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Let's get my dates right here.
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I think this was...
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When we were set apart, this was just prior to the Mitt Romney presidential campaign.
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I'm going back to 2012 now.
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Or 2010.
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Yeah, so this was 2010.
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And I think just after that, 2011, we heard about the Mitt Romney presidential campaign.
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There's a lot of conversation going on in our stake and across the world, actually.
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This was the Mormon moment, I think they called it, the moment in the spotlight where the world was actually looking at the church through this presidential campaign.
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And you can speak to this much more than I can because you've been involved in that campaign.
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But I remember many conversations about this.
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And this was an opportunity to bring the church forward, bring it out of obscurity, bring it into the light, and actually highlight the virtues of the church.
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I remember many of those conversations.
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And I think there's a lot of positive things that came from that, where people and organizations were looking at the church and looking at some of the attributes that the church and the values that the church subscribed to.
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It also came with a lot of negative criticism.
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As people did look into the church, they did find many issues.
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And I think that's one of the challenges that the church is facing is the internet, which they can't control.
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They can't control the information.
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They can't no longer control the narrative.
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But I don't know if they ever...
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Actually, as prophets, apostles, I don't think they...
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could see or foresee the extent and the level of negative opinion that the church has faced over the last decade or so.
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Certainly, there's been a lot of good things said about the church, but for the most part, there's a lot of negative things said about the church.
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And so it is grappling, and we'll continue to grapple with that.
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And the genie's out of the bottle, so he's not going to be able to put it back in.
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There's a lot of issues there.
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But for me, just getting to the point here, some of the virtues or the qualities based on my personal experience at the church, does it extraordinarily well at is as follows.
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It provides a platform for serving others.
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I don't know of any organization that is so well organized and structured and can mobilize resources and people around a common cause, either it's a local cause or a personal cause to help someone move or feed a family.
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As we came into Canada, we didn't know anyone in the The ward wrapped their arms around us, and the level of service that we experienced was extraordinary.
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It really was, and that's been my lifelong experience.
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The love and the community, the spirit of the community, are other virtuous attributes that the church possesses in abundance, which we've experienced as a family and as individuals over decades.
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Other qualities are leadership.
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You know, joining the Church of Sixteen, with very little confidence and very low self-esteem.
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I could never imagine speaking publicly.
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I remember the first day at church that they asked me to say a prayer and I just couldn't say a prayer in a small group of, they called it MIA back then, but I couldn't say a prayer in front of anyone.
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I had no confidence.
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And there were people my age and younger who could.
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And I remember going to church for the first day, there was a youth speaker and I just couldn't believe there was When I joined at 16, there was a 14-year-old speaking in front of probably 80 people.
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It just blew me away.
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And so I've gone from that experience of having little or no confidence, not really having any leadership skills, to speaking in front of thousands of people, which has helped me enormously in terms of confidence.
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Quite frightening at the time, but it's built my confidence and my experience.
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It's helped me develop leadership skills in me, and I've brought those into my life.
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professional life.
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So the type and level of service that the members perform is just extraordinary.
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Across the world, on a personal level, on a community level, it really is amazing.
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Helping Anne's program is one example.
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There's many other examples.
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The leadership that the church teaches is quite extraordinary.
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You experience that through lessons and training, etc.
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I've also delivered leadership training material at the state level.
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The sense of community is absolutely unparalleled.
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Relationships.
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I forged incredible relationships, including this one with you.
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I never would have met you had it not been for the church and many hundreds of other extraordinary lifelong friends I never would have met.
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And these are friends that have got incredible values of decency and honesty, integrity, who are very hardworking, very smart people, well-educated, just wonderful, wonderful people who are very inspirational, who helped me enormously in my life.
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I don't think I would have had that anywhere else.
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So, and the church has reached globally to be able to help and perform all these services.
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I've actually seen miracles on a very personal level in my life and my family's life, but also as we've been instrumental as leaders in helping those in our state who have been struggling financially, emotionally, we've seen the power of the goodness that the church can bring into their lives.
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And these are not small things.
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These are very, very significant things that have been, in some cases, actually saved lives.
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So I kind of highlight some of the qualities, and I don't think we talk about them as much.
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I don't know any podcast, to my first point, any podcast that focuses exclusively, entirely, on the extraordinary good that the church does across the world.
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No, that's
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a
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good point.
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And you highlighted some things that were really interesting because, you know, when I was growing up, I did grow up in the church, and I was called upon to give talks in what they then called Junior Sunday School.
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I can remember giving a talk about Ammon slicing off lots and lots of arms when I was, what, nine years old?
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Ten years old?
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And I remember being terrified.
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And the room where I gave the talk was tiny, and the number of people in the room was maybe 10 to 15.
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But that was my first foray into public speaking.
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And I've had so many different opportunities since then.
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And the church just sort of trained me to do that and have confidence in doing that as a rite of passage.
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It didn't even occur to me just how unusual that is.
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for somebody so young to have those kinds of opportunities.
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But I spoke in sacrament meeting before I hit my teenage years.
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I have been involved in all kinds of things that I wouldn't have been involved in had it not been for the church.
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And it's interesting, as you talk about the kinds of things that the church does personally, I knew about that sort of philosophically, but that became very real to me about 10 years ago when my daughter was injured.
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I have a 26-year-old daughter who at the age of 14, so this was 12 years ago, we went skiing on Valentine's Day of 2011, and she went tumbling down the mountain, 300 yards down the mountain while she was skiing, head over heels, and she blacked out, and we think she hit a tree.
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She doesn't remember because she ended up getting what they called a burst fracture in her spine that impinged on her spinal cord and left her partially paralyzed from the waist down.
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And this was just a devastating experience for her, obviously, but it was a devastating experience for our entire family.
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And within minutes, the ward was rallying to figure out a way to help us.
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Our bishop came and visited us in the hospital, gave us blessings while we were in the hospital waiting for our daughter while she was in surgery.
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When we got home, the entire ward had descended on our house, cleaned our house, fixed our house.
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They repainted her bedroom.
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We had a construction guy in our ward who installed railings to make our house more handicap accessible.
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And we had more lasagna than we knew what to do with because we just had all this food.
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being brought in to help us.
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Just on the drop of a hat, the church was able to sort of organize that and do that.
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And the church, for all of its flaws and problems on a macro level, on a micro level, on a ward level, on a community level, I don't know of an organization that is more effective at blessing people's lives than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
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And The confidence now that I have that if anything terrible were to happen to our family again, I know that the church would be on our doorstep that same day.
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And I think that's the experience of people worldwide throughout the church.
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We live in an area where there are so many church members that maybe that's not as impressive as areas where church members are sparse on the ground.
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But growing up in Southern California, where we had fewer church members in our immediate area, you would still see the church spring into action at a moment's notice.
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And I really think that's what the church does best.
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We do community very, very well.
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And I'm a little disturbed that part of that is going away.
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As we've been focused on what the church now talks about as a home-focused church-supported church, home-centered church-supported, we seem to be dismantling some of that apparatus.
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And that sense of community that was such a big deal for me growing up, we don't have the kinds of road shows and Boy Scouts and all the kinds of programs and things that build that kind of community anymore.
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And I'm a little nervous that the future of the church isn't going to be nearly as effective at that as the past has been.
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Am I too overly concerned, or is that something you see as well?
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I'm out of the church, as you know, so I don't see, I don't know about that, frankly.
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When we left, it went from day in terms of support, love, and service, it was basically the whole reach-out experience was switched off literally overnight.
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So that was sad.
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It was a sudden, an immediate, wide-scale loss of community that was very, very painful for us.
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And since being out of the church, I can't speak to that definitively.
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I do hear that the church's message now is a more home-centered worship experience i don't know if that translates into less community involvement less community spirit i i hope it it doesn't to your point i i think that's one of the church's greatest attributes is its ability for its members or extraordinary people let's let's face it who are kind and loving who are motivated through love uh mostly and not feel because they have to.
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I think a lot of members, or they serve because they do care, they do love.
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And that's been my experience prior to leaving the church.
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But I hope it retains that quality because there's no organization.
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And I'm out the church and I deal with different organizations.
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And we have been to another church, a couple of churches over Christmas, where we have felt some community spirit, but not to the extent...
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that we felt while we're in the church and the level of service and reach out, especially during a crisis or an emergency.
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We don't know an organization that can match the power and the organization of the church in that sense.
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Just going back to, again, my personal experience, being called as a bishop, branch president on the mission, serving on a state presidency, but in particular the bishop's calling, As I was called at that time, the state president said, Ian, the bishop's calling puts you into the lives of the member in a very unique and a very personal way.
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And I didn't know what he meant by that.
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But within a space of days, actually, within a week, I realized what he meant.
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I had members wanting to meet with me.
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And then over a relatively short period of time, and I knew many of these members, I knew them quite well.
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And they opened up to me some of their personal struggles and issues, which were surprising and shocking in some way.
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But when I learned about their personal struggle, issues that they struggled with their entire lives, and at times they cried in front of me, sometimes we cried together.
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There were difficult moments as they opened up some of the challenges they're experiencing.
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But being able to...
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for them to share those things in confidence, strictest confidence, for them to know that that's not going to go anywhere, for them to know that I'm not judging them unkindly.
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Yes, we make a judgment on how we can help them, but we don't think less of people because they've got problems or issues.
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And for the bishop to have access to the ward and actually at times state resources to help this individual was incredible.
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And so I've seen that you can make the final decision yes you have council you can choose to accept or reject the council but at the end of the day the bishop makes the final decision for his ward and that was great on the stake presence the stake presence make the final decision for the stake and again if that decision power, if you want to call it power, is in the right hands, it can do extraordinary good.
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And that happens on an extraordinary scale.
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For those bishops or stakes who demonstrate poor leadership or the power goes to the head or they don't help the member as much or in a way that they could, which is a very, very, in my opinion, very small percentage from my experience.
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You know, the vast majority of leaders across the church, across the global church, perform extraordinary good on a very personal level in members' lives.
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You know, from helping someone to feed somebody to looking at where they can get work, the church has got an employment program, etc.
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I remember when I was younger and I handed him a notice for my job regarding me going on a mission and they were very angry with me that I was going on this crazy mission and I was actually told to clear my office drawer and leave immediately.
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I was gone within an hour or less.
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And I was relying on that extra money, but I found myself out of my job about two months before I served my mission.
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And so the bishop put me to work, and I went with the Relief Society president and a counselor to the bishop's storehouse, and we'd drive there about half an hour.
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We'd have all these orders that the bishop had signed off, these members, about 20 members in the ward who were struggling financially.
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we collected food from a storehouse that the church owned, operated in Sheffield in South Yorkshire in England and we spent a couple of hours just organising and packing all these food parcels that were extremely generous and there was other items that were added to that without being the request of the family or the member and so we then drove back and we delivered this is a all day, all weekend event.
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And so we delivered, well, all day event, no, let's say weekend, but we delivered these very large, very generous parcels of food under the direction of the bishop and the Relief Society.
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And we, I think it was 20 or 30 families that we delivered all these parcels.
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And I remember knocking on the door and and carrying this big parcel of food.
00:24:14.432 --> 00:24:19.438
And the look on those members' faces was extraordinary.
00:24:19.739 --> 00:24:20.839
Often it was quite emotional.
00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:21.460
There were tears.
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:23.501
They were so grateful.
00:24:23.541 --> 00:24:26.826
And that just really, really had a profound effect on me.
00:24:26.846 --> 00:24:29.868
This is two months before my mission, and I did this every...
00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:34.212
I think this was a weekly assignment that the bishop gave me because I was out of work.
00:24:34.452 --> 00:24:35.114
What am I going to do?
00:24:35.153 --> 00:24:36.414
I'm not going to apply for another job.
00:24:36.494 --> 00:24:38.917
I think I did some part-time work just to...
00:24:39.362 --> 00:24:42.266
compensate for that two months lack of salary.
00:24:42.385 --> 00:24:43.788
I think they still owe me for that two months.
00:24:44.388 --> 00:25:22.921
And so I've seen firsthand the physical, emotional response and the goodness that people have felt because the church, how it's organized, how it's structured, the motivation of its members to be able to reach out and to be able to help these families in a very, very profound way, in a way that actually is quite miraculous, and in a way that actually directly blesses the lives of families and children who are often struggling, who sometimes can't afford or don't know where the next meal's coming from.
00:25:22.961 --> 00:25:23.721
So I've seen that.
00:25:24.383 --> 00:25:38.272
And I don't think there's enough centralized areas of information which actually talks about all the good things that the church does.
00:25:38.313 --> 00:25:43.878
And so wanting to do this podcast with you on this particular subject has been something that I've thought about for quite some time.
00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:46.643
So I'm glad that we're having this conversation.
00:25:47.042 --> 00:26:02.541
Well, this may be a bit of a left turn, but the thing that, in listening to what you were talking about, the thing that breaks my heart is your statement that the minute you left the church, all of that was turned off.
00:26:03.842 --> 00:26:18.502
that the connection was completely severed, that nobody reached out, and that if anything were to happen, none of these people would come to your aid because your name isn't on the records of the church.
00:26:19.663 --> 00:26:25.972
And it's stunning to me how widespread that kind of a phenomenon is.
00:26:26.473 --> 00:26:49.326
As I've got sort of waded into the world of church apologetics, and dealing with people, I've discovered that there is a huge wellspring of decent, wonderful people who, for whatever reason, no longer find themselves within the boundaries of the church.
00:26:50.367 --> 00:26:52.690
Maybe they've made mistakes in their life.
00:26:53.010 --> 00:26:59.878
Maybe they've gone through a faith crisis where they don't feel like they can stay in the church for whatever reason.
00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:12.281
But all of the goodness that All of the decency, all of the integrity and intelligence that you're talking about, it doesn't vanish the minute your name falls off the church records.
00:27:12.982 --> 00:27:23.236
You are still, Ian Wilkes, the same decent, solid, generous, kind person you were when you were in the church.
00:27:24.136 --> 00:27:43.413
And yet, for whatever reason, that kind of demarcation sets a boundary for too many church members, where they say, okay, my compassion and my love only extends to those who are within the boundaries of the church.
00:27:44.576 --> 00:27:49.303
And that desperately needs to change, and there's no reason for it.
00:27:49.923 --> 00:27:53.489
And I was so encouraged at this most recent conference.
00:27:55.010 --> 00:27:59.637
I don't know if you paid any attention to the general conference this time around, but I...
00:27:59.938 --> 00:28:01.421
sitting in the choir loft.
00:28:01.520 --> 00:28:04.686
I listened to every session, at least every session that I was there.
00:28:04.707 --> 00:28:06.048
I was only there for three sessions.
00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:09.615
Another choir sing for other sessions, but that's completely irrelevant.
00:28:10.317 --> 00:28:18.852
Sunday morning, President Nelson took to the podium, and it was the first time he had spoken in this conference.
00:28:19.472 --> 00:28:30.348
And usually, President Nelson would speak He did produce the conference on Saturday morning, he'd speak on Saturday afternoon, and then he'd speak on Sunday morning, and he hadn't said anything.
00:28:30.409 --> 00:28:32.311
And I thought, okay, is he ill?
00:28:33.673 --> 00:28:35.036
Why is he not saying anything?
00:28:35.896 --> 00:28:47.794
And when he spoke, he made up for it, because that was easily the best talk he has ever given, and one of the best talks that anybody has ever given in conference.
00:28:48.535 --> 00:28:50.597
And it was talking about contention.
00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:59.143
And it was talking about the fact that we are not kind to each other when we interact online, when we interact with other people.
00:28:59.163 --> 00:29:09.338
I was sitting in the choir loft, and I audibly said the words, thank you, which shocked everybody around me when he said, I can remember the exact quote.
00:29:09.479 --> 00:29:18.493
He said, if somebody in your ward gets a divorce, or if a missionary comes home early, or if a teenager doubts his testimony...
00:29:18.978 --> 00:29:21.299
They do not need your judgment.
00:29:22.501 --> 00:29:24.323
And I just wanted to stand up and cheer.
00:29:24.343 --> 00:29:27.527
We need to hear more of those messages.
00:29:27.826 --> 00:29:31.830
I have never made a covenant to treat people like garbage.
00:29:32.451 --> 00:29:39.378
I have never made a covenant to sever ties of fellowship and kindness and love with people who leave the church.
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:49.192
And these people, overwhelmingly, the people who leave the church that I've talked to, are people who love the church.
00:29:49.373 --> 00:30:00.288
I mean, you clearly still have a lot of love and respect for the church, but there have been problems and challenges that have required you to step away.
00:30:00.327 --> 00:30:08.380
But all of that goodness that you had and all of the great things the church taught you, those aren't gone.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.065
They don't vanish the minute you, the instant you leave the church.
00:30:12.786 --> 00:30:24.787
And I think there is this huge resource that the church needs to make use of, of people who are church, I like to call them church adjacent.
00:30:26.249 --> 00:30:28.371
They may not be members of the church.
00:30:29.192 --> 00:30:35.479
They may not ever have been members of the church, but they've had experiences with the church that are positive.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:48.681
And we as a church just, we cut off our nose to spite our face by saying, oh, geez, well, they've left the church.
00:30:49.942 --> 00:30:50.523
Off they go.
00:30:50.564 --> 00:30:51.085
Forget it.
00:30:51.806 --> 00:30:54.430
Send them into the wilderness, and we'll just focus on our own.
00:30:54.450 --> 00:31:12.680
I want to believe that President Nelson's conference talk this time around was a turning point and was a sign that slowly but surely we're going to change that.
00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:14.001
I...
00:31:15.041 --> 00:31:41.488
I desperately have to believe that that can and will change because there are too many wonderful, good, decent people in this church for us to not recognize that how we deal with those who lead is really kind of lousy and really needs to change.
00:31:42.669 --> 00:31:43.690
I mean...
00:31:44.130 --> 00:32:04.136
From your perspective, what would you like to see from your friends or your former friends, and I hate to even describe them as former friends, but the people that you knew and that you were sharing this fellowship with when you were in the church and when you were in a stake presidency, what would you like them to do now?
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.381
If they knocked on your door and said...
00:32:08.034 --> 00:32:14.020
been terrible to you and we'd love to be your friend again, whether or not you're a member of the church, would that be something you would welcome?
00:32:14.942 --> 00:32:14.981
Of
00:32:15.082 --> 00:32:15.362
course.
00:32:15.603 --> 00:32:16.864
It's a great question.
00:32:16.884 --> 00:32:43.402
All we ever want, all we ever thought we had was something that we've had or felt we had over decades was friendships, extraordinary friendships, friendships friendships forged out of love and service and kindness and being there for each other, you know, being consistent, a real friend in the true sense of the meaning.
00:32:43.442 --> 00:32:46.988
I didn't listen to President Nelson's talk.
00:32:47.048 --> 00:32:51.174
You and I have chatted about that when we were together in Salt Lake recently in person.
00:32:51.194 --> 00:32:53.858
I really enjoyed catching up with you in person.
00:32:53.898 --> 00:32:56.163
I've heard about President Nelson's talk.
00:32:56.804 --> 00:32:58.205
I hope it translates well.
00:32:58.786 --> 00:33:01.769
soon across the rank and files of the church.
00:33:03.871 --> 00:33:18.605
For over 35 years, myself, my family, I've been the recipients of extraordinary good by being part of the church, serving and being served and being supported.
00:33:18.625 --> 00:33:21.749
It's been a source of just wonderful joy.
00:33:21.788 --> 00:33:25.772
And that has come through relationships that we...
00:33:27.394 --> 00:33:57.131
value you know lifelong relationships that we value extraordinarily and so and then again you know when you're in a calling or a leadership calling where it puts you into the lives especially as a bishop or a state president or a member of the state president it puts a member's lives in a very personal way if you're an auxiliary leader you really don't get into the lives of those that you serve with like a bishop can.
00:33:57.290 --> 00:34:05.961
You know, the bishop hears things, sees things, feel things, and experiences things in a way that very few callings allow.
00:34:06.401 --> 00:34:08.023
So you get very, very close.
00:34:08.063 --> 00:34:32.829
So in the wards that I've served, in the stake that I've served, where I felt, or we felt as a family, that we've got lifelong relationships that will never change, imagine, if you will, the pain and shock, a significant pain and shock, certainly for me, when those relationships turn out or it appears to turn out to be conditional on our activity.
00:34:33.570 --> 00:34:36.695
And so that was an absolute shock.
00:34:36.735 --> 00:35:04.501
And I'll get to your question in a second, but we went literally from night and day from being part of a community to being ostracized and being literally cut out, people disconnecting on Facebook and and disconnecting on other ways, hearing very negative comments about me and my family, very painful things, even referenced in a couple of talks as an example of somebody who's fallen from a great height.
00:35:04.521 --> 00:35:05.503
That's what I heard.
00:35:06.164 --> 00:35:09.588
You know, very, very painful, something that I struggled with for a number of months.
00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:27.304
But during that time, JMI, I wanted to find out why we could go from this, what we thought was extraordinary closeness that was very profound for us and very meaningful for us to 98% disconnection, I would say, within days.
00:35:27.385 --> 00:35:34.114
And so as I've asked questions, I've been told why this is, why this has happened this way.
00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:45.210
And here's what I've been told by a number of people that do keep in touch with us, that have heard from our stake award, why they don't want anything to do with this.
00:35:45.791 --> 00:35:47.233
One is because I've resigned.
00:35:47.253 --> 00:35:50.038
Because I've resigned, I'm no longer...
00:35:50.626 --> 00:35:53.409
they don't see me as a prospect for reactivation.
00:35:53.449 --> 00:35:56.996
And they see me as a lost soul.
00:35:57.576 --> 00:36:03.646
So again, I'm just sharing with you what I've heard as to why we've been cut off.
00:36:04.286 --> 00:36:10.215
So when you resign, you are no longer a candidate for reactivation.
00:36:10.235 --> 00:36:15.963
I even had somebody say to me, Ian, what's your status of the church?
00:36:16.784 --> 00:36:19.730
Jokingly, they said, if you're less active, we'll still pray for you.
00:36:20.193 --> 00:36:22.518
If you're not, then we might not.
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.505
They said it in a joking way, but there's an old saying, isn't there?
00:36:25.545 --> 00:36:28.152
There's off-truth spoken in jest.
00:36:29.155 --> 00:36:30.438
And I think that is the truth.
00:36:30.478 --> 00:36:38.168
I think if you're resigned, then you're not on the roster or you're not on the list of reactivation.
00:36:38.248 --> 00:36:40.572
Essentially, there's no hope for you because you resigned.
00:36:40.833 --> 00:36:42.976
You are in the hands of Satan.
00:36:43.016 --> 00:36:43.577
You've resigned.
00:36:43.617 --> 00:36:44.980
You've taken your family out of the church.
00:36:45.601 --> 00:36:47.003
Another reason is resources.
00:36:47.523 --> 00:36:48.907
They don't spend the resources.
00:36:49.067 --> 00:36:56.639
They only spend resources on those who are less active because they can come back and receive the fullness of the blessings, the temple, the priest, etc.
00:36:57.101 --> 00:37:07.016
Third, By resigning, I've disconnected myself from the preacher blessings, from the temple blessings, and therefore I'm now an apostate because I've rejected the church.
00:37:07.697 --> 00:37:36.347
And the other point I was told was my resignation and now leaving the church as a family has essentially translated into the members locally feeling that we've rejected them by going inactive, by resigning, we have said, or this is how it's interpreted, we've sent a message to say, look, we want nothing to do with you, which is not the case.
00:37:37.108 --> 00:37:46.824
And they've interpreted this as that we rejected them personally, which we haven't, of course, we've not rejected them.
00:37:47.105 --> 00:37:55.269
So in my research and my conversations, these are the reasons why I've been told why our farm has been cut off.
00:37:55.550 --> 00:38:04.007
To get to your question, if someone knocked on the door randomly and just, what would be my expectations?
00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:06.773
It would be just to be a friend, just be a friend to us.
00:38:06.793 --> 00:38:07.596
We've not changed.
00:38:08.237 --> 00:38:08.938
We're still the same.
00:38:09.458 --> 00:38:14.128
We still hold to many of the values, even some of the basic beliefs.
00:38:14.978 --> 00:38:15.759
Not all of them.
00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:21.385
Our thoughts and views on certain things have changed, in some cases quite significantly.
00:38:21.827 --> 00:38:26.652
But as people, we've not turned evil.
00:38:26.793 --> 00:38:33.222
We're not worshipping gops, anything like that, or doing strange things.
00:38:33.282 --> 00:38:34.222
We're still good people.
00:38:34.242 --> 00:38:35.505
We still reach out to the community.
00:38:35.525 --> 00:38:45.704
I think one of the most painful things, Jim, that happened was to learn that we were no longer part of the food drive I was the chairman of the food drive.
00:38:45.744 --> 00:38:50.210
I actually launched the food drive program years ago.
00:38:50.231 --> 00:38:53.454
That was my assignment as a council on the state presidency.
00:38:53.494 --> 00:38:54.096
That was my job.
00:38:54.996 --> 00:38:58.902
And wonderful experience and was successful with a team of people.
00:38:58.942 --> 00:39:00.123
Of course, it was all a team effort.
00:39:01.005 --> 00:39:04.268
And we launched an extraordinary food drive that continues to this day.
00:39:04.289 --> 00:39:07.693
It's one of the most successful food drives across British Columbia.
00:39:08.418 --> 00:39:09.679
Certainly in our area.
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:11.902
I wasn't responsible for British Gully, but certainly in my area.
00:39:12.724 --> 00:39:14.847
And it's been wonderful.
00:39:14.907 --> 00:39:16.989
And we're now no longer part of that.
00:39:17.590 --> 00:39:18.771
We don't get invited to that.
00:39:19.914 --> 00:40:03.541
And it's sad that we're not part of a community event that goes around and organizes and collects food for the most needy in our community that even that's been disconnected so all we would expect is just to be a friend just to keep us involved from a community perspective don't make awful comments about us in a talk don't tell talk about me that I'm a failed father or I've led my family astray or you know where I'm in league with Lucifer or you know destructive father or parent because that's extremely painful and And, you know, completely, you know, my kids, when they heard about that, was just, that's what sent them out of the church.
00:40:03.981 --> 00:40:10.128
Those negative things about myself and our family was just what was why the rest of them left.
00:40:11.088 --> 00:40:11.949
So just be a friend.
00:40:11.989 --> 00:40:12.791
Don't judge us.
00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:13.592
Be kind.
00:40:14.472 --> 00:40:16.034
Don't try to convert us back.
00:40:16.094 --> 00:40:17.215
Don't make us a project.
00:40:17.255 --> 00:40:21.639
I've heard that our family name is a special project.
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:23.001
Don't make us a special project.
00:40:23.554 --> 00:40:27.057
If we don't want to come out or don't want to get reactivated, just respect that.
00:40:27.538 --> 00:40:29.559
But just be our friend for the sake of being friends.
00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:33.623
And please keep us involved in the food drive.
00:40:34.264 --> 00:40:35.846
I don't think that's too much to ask.
00:40:36.387 --> 00:40:40.331
But sadly, you know, the relationships have severed.
00:40:41.291 --> 00:40:43.333
The people that have severed the relationships, I don't...
00:40:44.235 --> 00:40:44.795
Not anymore.
00:40:44.815 --> 00:40:45.836
I was quite hurt.
00:40:46.376 --> 00:40:47.458
I still am in some ways.
00:40:47.478 --> 00:40:49.760
It would be inaccurate to say I'm not hurt, but...
00:40:52.065 --> 00:40:55.851
I still love them and I think they still care for us in some way.
00:40:55.871 --> 00:41:02.878
I don't feel as bad as I used to about these individuals.
00:41:02.938 --> 00:41:03.940
I think they're wonderful people.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.724
I mean, I know them and they do extraordinarily good.
00:41:06.744 --> 00:41:16.514
And so I've moved past the hurt stage and through the sadness stage through to feeling stronger and resolved.
00:41:16.554 --> 00:41:17.637
And I've made new friends now.
00:41:17.757 --> 00:41:21.762
So, you know, they cut us off and we...
00:41:23.554 --> 00:41:25.996
we then make new friends in the community.
00:41:26.338 --> 00:41:33.648
And we've got those friendships now that are not reliant or conditional on activity going to any particular religion.
00:41:34.528 --> 00:41:44.362
We're friends because they like us or they love us or they want to be our friend because it's something that we have those personal interests.
00:41:45.824 --> 00:41:47.266
So friendship, just be a friend.
00:41:47.306 --> 00:41:48.849
That would be my answer to your question.
00:41:50.070 --> 00:41:52.373
The one thing that you said that I hadn't thought about...
00:41:53.057 --> 00:42:03.510
that I think is kind of interesting and I want to explore a little bit is people interpret your decision to leave as a personal rejection of them.
00:42:03.550 --> 00:42:06.554
And that's interesting.
00:42:06.614 --> 00:42:24.353
And I thought, okay, that may even be the one justifiable, justifiable is the wrong word, the one understandable reason why people might not connect with you is that they may feel that you have rejected them.
00:42:24.373 --> 00:42:30.523
And I thought, sheesh, I know so many people who have left the church.
00:42:31.324 --> 00:42:33.427
I have so many good friends who have left the church.
00:42:33.507 --> 00:42:49.813
And people are seeing this on a rather widespread scale because if the statistics are to be believed, it's anywhere between 60 and 80% of Generation Z leave the church before they're 18 years old.
00:42:49.833 --> 00:42:55.202
I mean, we are seeing lots and lots of people leaving the church.
00:42:56.023 --> 00:43:11.085
The official statistics don't tell that story, but the anecdotal experience of most members of the church is that people now know friends and members of their own family who are leaving.
00:43:12.193 --> 00:43:14.836
And that's happening to a large degree.
00:43:14.876 --> 00:43:17.400
People are going through faith crises.
00:43:17.481 --> 00:43:22.686
People are getting frustrated with the church or they're having a problem with church history or whatever else it is.
00:43:23.447 --> 00:43:30.697
But the number of people who are leaving the church, in my experience, from what I can see, is in fact accelerating.
00:43:31.998 --> 00:43:37.105
And it doesn't occur to me to take that personally.
00:43:37.125 --> 00:43:42.882
I mean, I would never think, oh, gee, so, you know, he had left the church and Ian's rejecting me.
00:43:44.425 --> 00:43:47.527
That wouldn't make any sense to me to think of it in those terms.
00:43:49.530 --> 00:44:06.349
But I can see how people might think of that in those terms, particularly people in your neighborhood, people in your area, people that you've worked with, and that you've had, you know, as a leader, you've had this kind of one-on-one experience with so many of them.
00:44:07.048 --> 00:44:11.559
And they I can imagine them looking at that and saying, well, geez, didn't that mean anything to him?
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:14.605
I'm not justifying it.
00:44:14.744 --> 00:44:17.228
I'm saying that's something I hadn't considered.
00:44:17.268 --> 00:44:35.418
And I'm wondering if maybe there is something there that we need to address because we need to get to a point where friendship is not conditional upon church membership.
00:44:36.161 --> 00:44:39.686
and where friendship can endure when church membership does not.
00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:43.271
People need to do that in families.
00:44:43.331 --> 00:44:44.873
People need to do that in marriages.
00:44:45.875 --> 00:44:48.539
I see the experience of mixed-faith marriages.
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:59.653
You have people that get married, and both of them are faithful, and they get married in the temple, and then one of them goes through a faith crisis and decides they just can't believe anymore, but they don't want to leave the marriage.
00:45:00.996 --> 00:45:05.442
And yet, that happens.
00:45:06.050 --> 00:45:08.992
You know, I'm seeing that.
00:45:09.012 --> 00:45:15.458
I don't have permission to say who I'm seeing that in, but I see that.
00:45:15.498 --> 00:45:28.391
For instance, my sister was telling me the other day, oh, this person who you did this with, oh, that's his new wife, because his first wife left the church, so he had to divorce her.
00:45:29.692 --> 00:45:30.793
And I went, no, he didn't.
00:45:30.873 --> 00:45:32.335
He didn't have to divorce her.
00:45:32.795 --> 00:45:34.137
He chose to divorce her.
00:45:35.177 --> 00:45:46.268
But But if a marriage is based solely upon and is only contingent upon membership in the church, that just breaks my heart.
00:45:46.489 --> 00:45:47.851
That makes me very, very sad.
00:45:47.891 --> 00:45:52.018
If my wife were to leave the church, I would not leave my wife.
00:45:54.262 --> 00:45:56.286
So I don't know.
00:45:56.867 --> 00:45:58.369
That's very difficult.
00:45:58.588 --> 00:46:00.994
But to me, I think...
00:46:02.177 --> 00:46:08.264
You know, we've highlighted so many of the things the church does well, and the church continues to do things well.
00:46:08.445 --> 00:46:15.833
And the church, the members of the church, by and large, are good, decent, wonderful people.
00:46:16.853 --> 00:46:25.885
And good, decent, wonderful people should know better than to cut other good, decent, wonderful people out of their lives just because they're not members of the church.
00:46:26.985 --> 00:46:30.409
I mean, that strikes me as so...
00:46:31.233 --> 00:47:08.148
obvious that it doesn't need to be said and yet it needs to be said over and over and over again and online you know i wander into twitter wars and it is stunning to me the the members of the church online are not only the worst members of the church but they're some of the worst people People who go online and anonymously decide that they're going to be the champions for the church, all they do is dump on other people.
00:47:08.429 --> 00:47:15.536
And I've had wild, weird pictures of me posted because I'm a member of the church.
00:47:15.556 --> 00:47:17.137
I'm a member of the Tabernacle Choir.
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:18.920
I'm a believing member of the church.
00:47:19.221 --> 00:47:25.474
I remember once there was a guy who posted a There were four pictures.
00:47:26.456 --> 00:47:28.498
And there was a picture of David O.
00:47:28.538 --> 00:47:31.561
McKay and a picture of Heber J.
00:47:31.621 --> 00:47:37.407
Grant and a picture of my father, who was a senator from Utah.
00:47:37.706 --> 00:47:41.710
And then there was a picture of me that they found on Facebook with my hair all wild.
00:47:41.771 --> 00:47:44.112
And I posted it for fun, but I look ridiculous.
00:47:44.934 --> 00:47:47.596
And they said, you know, what's wrong with this?
00:47:47.655 --> 00:47:49.458
Look how far this guy has fallen.
00:47:49.498 --> 00:47:53.641
And I thought, sheesh, you spent at least an hour on that.
00:47:54.530 --> 00:47:59.896
You hate me enough that you feel like you have to mock me and you won't even tell me your real name.
00:47:59.916 --> 00:48:05.001
You know, they hide behind these fake names and they post this garbage about me online.
00:48:05.822 --> 00:48:08.126
And this happens on a regular basis.
00:48:08.266 --> 00:48:13.791
And there are a number of people this happens to who are in the church, not even who are out of the church.
00:48:14.773 --> 00:48:17.215
And I just, I don't understand it.
00:48:17.436 --> 00:48:18.717
I don't understand it.
00:48:19.938 --> 00:48:31.773
with all of the wonderful things and the wonderful people that the church produces, why we can't get this right?
00:48:32.333 --> 00:48:34.036
Why we can't fix this problem?
00:48:35.318 --> 00:48:38.121
I think I have a couple of answers to that.
00:48:38.141 --> 00:48:39.804
I listened intently to what you said.
00:48:39.844 --> 00:48:43.019
I've got something that I think may answer that.
00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:46.224
But I think you are, for some, you're an anomaly.
00:48:46.264 --> 00:48:48.347
They don't know how to deal with you.
00:48:48.427 --> 00:48:52.331
You're conventional, traditional in some ways to the church, right?
00:48:52.371 --> 00:48:58.438
And attractive to the more conservative elements of the membership.
00:48:58.878 --> 00:49:13.445
But in other ways, on other opinions of views that you've got, you are more liberal, you're more open, and again, become less attractive, less palatable to that more conservative, hardcore traditional, conventional thinking.
00:49:13.525 --> 00:49:27.903
So you appeal to, I think, as we all do in some ways, you're more publicly well-known than I am, and so you connect with a much larger audience.
00:49:28.445 --> 00:49:40.400
So depending on the particular topic, you will be accepted by the hardcore, maybe more conventional members, but on other things where you think more liberally, then you probably fall out of favor.
00:49:40.420 --> 00:49:45.766
And I think that's the case with me and with lots of people that leave the church.
00:49:45.846 --> 00:49:46.887
And this is to my point.
00:49:47.608 --> 00:49:59.019
So when we resign or leave the church, as I've been told, locally, that has been interpreted locally as a rejection of not just them personally.
00:49:59.059 --> 00:50:18.585
Let me get to the point, be more specific here, is that what that means to to the members, or to the member, is that because an individual has resigned or left, they no longer subscribe to the values or the doctrines, in particular the values, as in my case.
00:50:18.786 --> 00:50:31.282
And so they automatically think, or many of them think, that they've rejected the church, rejected the doctrine, rejected the values, therefore doesn't have the same values that we do.
00:50:31.322 --> 00:50:33.565
It's walked away from them, abandoned them.
00:50:34.626 --> 00:50:48.664
Therefore, if you look at the teachings, and this is the point I'm making, if you look at the doctrine, the teachings, and in many, many talks, Jim, where general authorities have said we don't, and I wish I could remember the specific examples.
00:50:48.724 --> 00:51:00.059
I think it's really important to remember these examples, where general authorities said that we shouldn't mix or associate with those who have left the church or rejected the church or gone apostate.
00:51:00.139 --> 00:51:01.500
I can't remember the specific talks.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:04.603
I thought it was Elder Oaks or Elder Holland, I can't remember.
00:51:04.623 --> 00:51:06.244
He's one of the general authorities.
00:51:06.284 --> 00:51:09.168
There's been a number of talks like this and we should look into them.
00:51:09.588 --> 00:51:21.820
And so the members, local members here, some of them have been told not to mix with us, not to associate with us because we no longer believe the doctrine or all the doctrine.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:30.668
We no longer subscribe to the common values and the virtues that the church subscribes to, which is, you know, untrue.
00:51:30.929 --> 00:51:31.789
That's completely false.
00:51:32.322 --> 00:51:41.231
And so they make a connection, there's a personal connection, relationship between the individual and what they believe.
00:51:42.092 --> 00:51:56.369
And so if they don't believe the same stuff or accept everything, you know, and they've walked off the covenant path and reject some of the teachings or the history, etc., they're not worth having a relationship with.
00:51:57.730 --> 00:52:04.599
Because they don't have the same values and they're taught not to associate with people that don't have the same values.
00:52:04.898 --> 00:52:04.978
Well,
00:52:04.998 --> 00:52:12.027
I think you have something there with regard to the idea that you're dangerous.
00:52:13.369 --> 00:52:16.634
You know, you are a contagion.
00:52:17.675 --> 00:52:20.599
You are somebody that may spread doubt.
00:52:20.998 --> 00:52:22.842
It's not that you're going to pull them out of the church.
00:52:22.942 --> 00:52:26.146
It's that, oh gosh, if Ian Wilkes can leave...
00:52:26.914 --> 00:52:33.240
And I know Ian Wilkes is bright, and I know Ian Wilkes is compassionate and kind.
00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:46.034
I think people are scared and are terrified to some degree that, okay, well, jeez, if Ian can leave, maybe I can leave, and I don't want to go anywhere near that.
00:52:46.755 --> 00:52:49.239
And it isn't necessarily I don't want to go anywhere near Ian.
00:52:49.878 --> 00:52:59.054
It's I don't want to go anywhere where I'm going to be asked to consider challenging, difficult questions about the church.
00:52:59.996 --> 00:53:08.769
I mean, the fact that missionaries, yes, we were counseled to drop people who weren't serious and drop members who were going to be reactivated, et cetera, et cetera.
00:53:09.411 --> 00:53:13.677
I think that's less problematic than what we do when we get home.
00:53:13.898 --> 00:53:26.250
I mean, when you're a missionary, you're on a very specific, you have very limited resources, you have very limited time, and you're in this two-year bubble of where, yeah, your goal is to get out there and find as many people who will join the church as possible.
00:53:27.471 --> 00:53:48.672
But when you get home and you're building a community and building a life, you know, I remember one more mission leader, we were explaining this really goofy program that had come down where you go to a gas station or go to some place and just ambush somebody and give them a Book of Mormon.
00:53:49.333 --> 00:53:52.610
And I remember him saying to me, hey, We have to live here.
00:53:54.653 --> 00:53:56.735
We're going to be here after you're gone.
00:53:56.795 --> 00:53:58.197
You're here for a few months.
00:53:58.677 --> 00:53:59.798
We have to live here.
00:53:59.838 --> 00:54:21.452
And I think the standard should be very different when you're living somewhere and someone is part of the community and you're going to be living near them and around them to just drop them when they take action that you don't like and I think that's a real problem.
00:54:21.612 --> 00:54:42.983
But the other problem that you're highlighting is that there is a real fear among leaders and among members of anything that could raise difficult questions and create difficult challenges.
00:54:43.764 --> 00:54:47.949
And your existence raises difficult questions for people.
00:54:48.577 --> 00:54:56.387
They look at you and they say, oh gosh, jeez, if Ian Wilkes can doubt, then maybe I can too.
00:54:57.487 --> 00:55:08.161
And the other thing that happens is that they have to demonize you to justify themselves.
00:55:09.322 --> 00:55:11.585
They have to say, no, there's no way.
00:55:11.605 --> 00:55:13.706
Ian Wilkes is miserable now.
00:55:13.807 --> 00:55:15.550
His life has gone off the rails.
00:55:16.257 --> 00:55:22.326
He can't be happy because he's not in the church, because the church is the only way to be happy.
00:55:22.365 --> 00:55:26.692
And I've heard that from the pulpit.
00:55:26.751 --> 00:55:30.577
I heard that most recently from Elder Bednar at Sister Banks' funeral.
00:55:30.617 --> 00:55:36.625
Elder Bednar was there and spoke, and that was his message.
00:55:36.744 --> 00:55:40.909
His message was, you cannot be happy if you are not in the church.
00:55:41.931 --> 00:55:43.534
And that's simply not true.
00:55:44.289 --> 00:55:45.931
It's simply not true.
00:55:45.952 --> 00:55:57.585
And I think it terrifies people to come face to face with the reality that there are happy, good, decent people who have left the church and have been able to find happiness.
00:55:58.065 --> 00:56:01.951
Some find greater happiness outside the church.
00:56:02.992 --> 00:56:14.460
And it sort of pulls the rug out from under their faith because their faith is in the idea that this is the only true church that And it's the only true way to be happy.
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:20.686
And it's the only, I mean, it eliminates the exclusivity.
00:56:20.706 --> 00:56:23.148
It makes them feel less special.
00:56:24.489 --> 00:56:26.592
And I think that's a huge problem.
00:56:26.871 --> 00:56:37.101
This is really interesting because I hadn't considered this as extensively until I listened to what you were saying with regard to your experience.
00:56:37.802 --> 00:56:45.681
I'm hopeful that this podcast can be the beginning of a conversation where people address that.
00:56:46.481 --> 00:56:53.168
Because it's, you know, Eldon Eyring once said, you don't have to believe anything in this church that isn't true.
00:56:53.208 --> 00:57:01.376
And I cling to that when goofy things are said and hurtful things are said that are simply not true.
00:57:01.396 --> 00:57:08.543
I hope the President Nelson's message about contention and about judgment, I hope that continues to grow.
00:57:08.764 --> 00:57:10.545
I hope we move in that direction.
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:17.378
I see too much evidence that we're not moving in that direction, or at least not moving as quickly as I would like.
00:57:18.298 --> 00:57:21.422
And so I hope that we can get there.
00:57:21.461 --> 00:57:24.565
Our time is short here for this episode.
00:57:25.166 --> 00:57:27.510
Just have a couple of quick comments real quick here.
00:57:27.610 --> 00:57:28.771
I know we come into the end there.
00:57:29.291 --> 00:57:44.505
I think the last few minutes has been extremely significant in the way you have articulated and summarized one of the major problems issues in a particular area that we're talking about.
00:57:44.545 --> 00:57:47.108
And so it brings me to a question.
00:57:47.148 --> 00:57:51.672
I've been out now for seven years, seven and a half years.
00:57:51.713 --> 00:57:57.460
How many times, how many people rather have asked me why have I left?
00:57:58.880 --> 00:57:59.262
Do you think?
00:57:59.302 --> 00:58:01.043
My
00:58:01.103 --> 00:58:05.869
guess is if there are any, it's in single digits, but I'm
00:58:05.909 --> 00:58:06.750
guessing is zero.
00:58:07.329 --> 00:58:07.690
Zero.
00:58:08.391 --> 00:58:13.690
So not one person has asked me Ian, why did you leave?
00:58:14.409 --> 00:58:15.050
Not one person.
00:58:15.472 --> 00:58:16.432
We're actually happier.
00:58:16.873 --> 00:58:20.197
We're less judgmental as well.
00:58:20.277 --> 00:58:33.534
We don't have some of the baggage, all the doctrines that you have to navigate and try to work through gymnastics or trying to make sense of things that don't make sense.
00:58:34.115 --> 00:58:41.489
And so I think You've summarized extremely well, and I'm so glad that we were able to have this conversation.
00:58:42.088 --> 00:58:58.969
We remain mostly positive towards the church, cannot, will not forget the extraordinary goodness that the church has done in our lives on a personal level, and the extraordinary good that the church has done over the years to millions of people in the church and out in the church.
00:58:59.521 --> 00:59:05.728
and the extraordinary good that the church continues to deliver to people's lives, again, in and out the church.
00:59:06.809 --> 00:59:08.871
And that will never change.
00:59:09.271 --> 00:59:11.893
I said at the beginning that the church saved my life.
00:59:12.173 --> 00:59:14.056
It did on so many levels.
00:59:15.157 --> 00:59:21.762
The decision to join the church at the time was undoubtedly the best decision I ever made and my family ever made.
00:59:21.983 --> 00:59:28.148
But the decision to leave also has been equally the best decision that we have made as well.
00:59:28.188 --> 00:59:33.135
So Again, the church is a force for good, mostly.
00:59:33.177 --> 00:59:41.514
And if it can improve in the areas that it knows it should, then I think the church will be even better for sure.
00:59:42.655 --> 00:59:44.539
Well, I'll let that be the last word.
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:47.085
I think that that's a great way to sum this up.
00:59:48.001 --> 00:59:54.579
And for those of you listening, please make sure to like us and to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:55.360 --> 00:59:58.128
And until next time, we'll see you on Inside Out.
00:59:58.349 --> 00:59:59.371
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:00:00.213 --> 01:00:00.394
Thank
01:00:00.434 --> 01:00:00.594
you,
01:00:00.635 --> 01:00:00.856
Jim.
00:00:01.217 --> 00:00:03.741
Thank you.
00:00:35.585 --> 00:00:39.411
Hello and welcome to the third episode of Inside Out.
00:00:39.490 --> 00:00:44.618
My name is Jim Bennett and I'm here as always with my partner in crime, Ian Wilkes.
00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:45.298
Hello, Ian.
00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:46.100
Hello, Jim.
00:00:46.942 --> 00:00:47.823
Welcome, welcome.
00:00:48.222 --> 00:01:10.144
We're off and running and as we were talking about what we wanted to talk about in this week's podcast, we were discussing the fact that very often these kinds of podcasts and even our own episodes are We get into all of the things that are frustrating with the church, all of the things that the church is doing wrong to some degree.
00:01:10.183 --> 00:01:19.275
And we thought it might be appropriate to turn that on its head and talk about some of the things that the church is doing right.
00:01:20.135 --> 00:01:36.688
Because I think one of the reasons why both of us had been attracted to the church, why you joined the church as a young man, And why I've stayed in the church throughout my life is because there is a great deal of good that the church does.
00:01:36.728 --> 00:01:57.197
And the critics of the church don't necessarily want to give the church credit for a lot of that, but I think it's worth exploring and discussing some of the specifics in the way the church benefits people and how the church is of great benefit to the community at large.
00:01:58.081 --> 00:02:19.387
And the church is feeling, I think, a lot of pressure in that regard, because the amount of money that the church has has come to light, and the amount of money that the church uses to do humanitarian efforts and those sorts of things is a relatively small percentage of that.
00:02:20.247 --> 00:02:36.030
And I remember in the October of 2022 conference, President Oaks stood up and listed$900 million worth of humanitarian efforts that the church had made in the previous year.
00:02:36.069 --> 00:02:53.457
And$900 million is an awful lot of money, but in comparison to$100 billion, or even$150 billion, which are the estimates of the amount of liquid assets that the church has, it's to some degree a drop in the bucket.
00:02:54.114 --> 00:03:01.722
So I think part of this discussion, maybe I'm backing away from what I said when I said, okay, we're only going to be positive.
00:03:02.082 --> 00:03:09.270
It would be easy, I think, to spend this hour focused on how much more the church ought to be doing.
00:03:09.289 --> 00:03:12.133
And I think that's a fair question.
00:03:12.174 --> 00:03:23.425
But at the same time, I want to focus on what they are doing and how much good they've been able to do, regardless of how much money is being spent.
00:03:24.289 --> 00:03:25.491
if that makes any sense.
00:03:26.473 --> 00:03:31.921
What has been your experience with this in your own relationship to the church?
00:03:32.623 --> 00:03:32.843
Sure.
00:03:34.225 --> 00:03:36.509
First, I'm very pleased that we're doing this.
00:03:36.911 --> 00:03:42.860
You know, you and I have talked about doing a podcast focusing on all the good that the church does.
00:03:42.900 --> 00:03:50.740
There's a great deal or a great volume of negative information out there, as you know, about the church from multiple sources.
00:03:51.479 --> 00:03:53.603
It can be extremely vicious.
00:03:54.043 --> 00:03:57.667
Much of it, you could argue, is justified.
00:03:57.687 --> 00:04:04.293
There's a lot of it, I think, is perhaps not justified, depending on who you talk to and their experience.
00:04:05.074 --> 00:04:10.759
It appears on lots of different issues that the church does have a credibility problem.
00:04:11.441 --> 00:04:18.420
Its history, its policy of leadership, financial, it seems like there's problems everywhere you look.
00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:24.468
And it's very easy to get bogged down into all the negative issues that the church has.
00:04:24.788 --> 00:04:27.791
And actually, for good reason.
00:04:27.851 --> 00:04:32.778
I think there's a lot of legitimate concerns that people have with the church.
00:04:33.619 --> 00:04:35.562
But the church has done extraordinary good.
00:04:35.822 --> 00:04:38.586
And I do want to get into that, into this podcast.
00:04:39.206 --> 00:04:49.324
In my research, Jim, I couldn't find a podcast that focused purely on all the positive things that the church had done.
00:04:49.365 --> 00:04:52.408
If it exists, I don't know where it is.
00:04:52.468 --> 00:04:54.211
I certainly can't find it, I think.
00:04:54.793 --> 00:05:00.040
And so, you know, context and background and personal experience are really important, I think, in this podcast.
00:05:00.541 --> 00:05:09.396
I go back to a few years now, maybe 13 years ago, I think, when as a state presidency, we were set apart by Elder Oaks and Elder Cook.
00:05:09.757 --> 00:05:10.278
And I made...
00:05:10.721 --> 00:05:14.348
I actually made notes of that meeting, those meetings that we had.
00:05:14.367 --> 00:05:22.982
I also made notes, no one told me not to make notes, of the actual setting apart when Elder Oaks laid his hands, Elder Cook laid his hands upon my head.
00:05:23.002 --> 00:05:37.644
And I remember the words, many of the words at least, and some of the words were that we or I was tasked with laying the foundation of the church in this particular area where we reside.
00:05:38.274 --> 00:05:41.278
and to bring the church out of obscurity and out of darkness.
00:05:41.718 --> 00:05:47.146
He kind of half-referenced or quoted Doctrine and Covenants section 1, verse 30.
00:05:47.807 --> 00:05:58.822
And so in that blessing and the subsequent training, Elder Cook and Elder Oaks talked about at least two major themes, two major focus areas.
00:05:59.603 --> 00:06:01.766
And this came into the blessing as well.
00:06:02.326 --> 00:06:06.853
One of them was hastening the work, so accelerating, advancing the work.
00:06:06.892 --> 00:06:07.673
There were references...
00:06:08.161 --> 00:06:15.314
in the blessing pertaining to that, and also the references during the meetings and the training sessions, posts setting apart.
00:06:16.055 --> 00:06:18.721
And the other one was bringing the church out of obscurity.
00:06:19.442 --> 00:06:35.146
But I think the challenge that the, and again, having the spotlight placed upon the church, I remember numerous meetings as a state presidency to see what we could do more effectively, more efficiently to bring the church out of obscurity in this particular region where we live.
00:06:35.586 --> 00:06:40.571
And that included engaging with what the general authority described as opinion leaders.
00:06:41.052 --> 00:06:46.317
This is establishing relationships with influential people that reside in our area.
00:06:46.336 --> 00:06:48.538
And there's a lot of discussion training around that.
00:06:48.738 --> 00:06:55.786
But what's happened since then, and probably certainly prior to that, but certainly since then, the church has...
00:06:56.307 --> 00:06:57.427
By the way, this is a time of...
00:06:57.987 --> 00:06:58.869
Let's get my dates right here.
00:06:58.889 --> 00:06:59.470
I think this was...
00:07:00.225 --> 00:07:06.774
When we were set apart, this was just prior to the Mitt Romney presidential campaign.
00:07:07.314 --> 00:07:10.598
I'm going back to 2012 now.
00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:11.879
Or 2010.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:13.922
Yeah, so this was 2010.
00:07:14.242 --> 00:07:19.788
And I think just after that, 2011, we heard about the Mitt Romney presidential campaign.
00:07:20.468 --> 00:07:24.254
There's a lot of conversation going on in our stake and across the world, actually.
00:07:24.394 --> 00:07:34.334
This was the Mormon moment, I think they called it, the moment in the spotlight where the world was actually looking at the church through this presidential campaign.
00:07:34.353 --> 00:07:38.720
And you can speak to this much more than I can because you've been involved in that campaign.
00:07:39.762 --> 00:07:41.663
But I remember many conversations about this.
00:07:41.723 --> 00:07:50.877
And this was an opportunity to bring the church forward, bring it out of obscurity, bring it into the light, and actually highlight the virtues of the church.
00:07:50.896 --> 00:07:53.139
I remember many of those conversations.
00:07:53.680 --> 00:08:03.786
And I think there's a lot of positive things that came from that, where people and organizations were looking at the church and looking at some of the attributes that the church and the values that the church subscribed to.
00:08:04.228 --> 00:08:06.632
It also came with a lot of negative criticism.
00:08:06.791 --> 00:08:10.778
As people did look into the church, they did find many issues.
00:08:10.798 --> 00:08:15.425
And I think that's one of the challenges that the church is facing is the internet, which they can't control.
00:08:15.464 --> 00:08:16.586
They can't control the information.
00:08:16.687 --> 00:08:18.730
They can't no longer control the narrative.
00:08:18.750 --> 00:08:20.271
But I don't know if they ever...
00:08:20.892 --> 00:08:23.877
Actually, as prophets, apostles, I don't think they...
00:08:24.353 --> 00:08:32.785
could see or foresee the extent and the level of negative opinion that the church has faced over the last decade or so.
00:08:32.826 --> 00:08:38.715
Certainly, there's been a lot of good things said about the church, but for the most part, there's a lot of negative things said about the church.
00:08:39.475 --> 00:08:42.581
And so it is grappling, and we'll continue to grapple with that.
00:08:42.941 --> 00:08:45.524
And the genie's out of the bottle, so he's not going to be able to put it back in.
00:08:45.544 --> 00:08:46.407
There's a lot of issues there.
00:08:46.807 --> 00:08:57.458
But for me, just getting to the point here, some of the virtues or the qualities based on my personal experience at the church, does it extraordinarily well at is as follows.
00:08:57.499 --> 00:09:01.044
It provides a platform for serving others.
00:09:02.025 --> 00:09:15.648
I don't know of any organization that is so well organized and structured and can mobilize resources and people around a common cause, either it's a local cause or a personal cause to help someone move or feed a family.
00:09:15.768 --> 00:09:25.337
As we came into Canada, we didn't know anyone in the The ward wrapped their arms around us, and the level of service that we experienced was extraordinary.
00:09:25.557 --> 00:09:28.802
It really was, and that's been my lifelong experience.
00:09:29.322 --> 00:09:39.736
The love and the community, the spirit of the community, are other virtuous attributes that the church possesses in abundance, which we've experienced as a family and as individuals over decades.
00:09:40.017 --> 00:09:41.679
Other qualities are leadership.
00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:46.869
You know, joining the Church of Sixteen, with very little confidence and very low self-esteem.
00:09:46.889 --> 00:09:50.592
I could never imagine speaking publicly.
00:09:50.613 --> 00:10:04.447
I remember the first day at church that they asked me to say a prayer and I just couldn't say a prayer in a small group of, they called it MIA back then, but I couldn't say a prayer in front of anyone.
00:10:04.467 --> 00:10:05.750
I had no confidence.
00:10:05.970 --> 00:10:08.192
And there were people my age and younger who could.
00:10:08.231 --> 00:10:18.552
And I remember going to church for the first day, there was a youth speaker and I just couldn't believe there was When I joined at 16, there was a 14-year-old speaking in front of probably 80 people.
00:10:18.613 --> 00:10:19.634
It just blew me away.
00:10:19.673 --> 00:10:34.274
And so I've gone from that experience of having little or no confidence, not really having any leadership skills, to speaking in front of thousands of people, which has helped me enormously in terms of confidence.
00:10:34.875 --> 00:10:37.879
Quite frightening at the time, but it's built my confidence and my experience.
00:10:38.539 --> 00:10:43.166
It's helped me develop leadership skills in me, and I've brought those into my life.
00:10:43.298 --> 00:10:44.058
professional life.
00:10:44.119 --> 00:10:49.625
So the type and level of service that the members perform is just extraordinary.
00:10:50.206 --> 00:10:53.870
Across the world, on a personal level, on a community level, it really is amazing.
00:10:54.009 --> 00:10:56.633
Helping Anne's program is one example.
00:10:56.913 --> 00:10:57.833
There's many other examples.
00:10:58.354 --> 00:11:02.418
The leadership that the church teaches is quite extraordinary.
00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:06.423
You experience that through lessons and training, etc.
00:11:06.702 --> 00:11:10.807
I've also delivered leadership training material at the state level.
00:11:11.408 --> 00:11:15.611
The sense of community is absolutely unparalleled.
00:11:16.193 --> 00:11:17.017
Relationships.
00:11:17.538 --> 00:11:20.510
I forged incredible relationships, including this one with you.
00:11:20.551 --> 00:11:27.346
I never would have met you had it not been for the church and many hundreds of other extraordinary lifelong friends I never would have met.
00:11:27.386 --> 00:11:41.860
And these are friends that have got incredible values of decency and honesty, integrity, who are very hardworking, very smart people, well-educated, just wonderful, wonderful people who are very inspirational, who helped me enormously in my life.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:43.780
I don't think I would have had that anywhere else.
00:11:44.422 --> 00:11:50.106
So, and the church has reached globally to be able to help and perform all these services.
00:11:50.147 --> 00:12:11.638
I've actually seen miracles on a very personal level in my life and my family's life, but also as we've been instrumental as leaders in helping those in our state who have been struggling financially, emotionally, we've seen the power of the goodness that the church can bring into their lives.
00:12:11.658 --> 00:12:14.542
And these are not small things.
00:12:14.601 --> 00:12:19.447
These are very, very significant things that have been, in some cases, actually saved lives.
00:12:19.649 --> 00:12:25.976
So I kind of highlight some of the qualities, and I don't think we talk about them as much.
00:12:26.378 --> 00:12:35.549
I don't know any podcast, to my first point, any podcast that focuses exclusively, entirely, on the extraordinary good that the church does across the world.
00:12:36.354 --> 00:12:36.835
No, that's
00:12:36.875 --> 00:12:36.894
a
00:12:36.934 --> 00:12:37.495
good point.
00:12:37.535 --> 00:12:50.274
And you highlighted some things that were really interesting because, you know, when I was growing up, I did grow up in the church, and I was called upon to give talks in what they then called Junior Sunday School.
00:12:51.056 --> 00:12:58.767
I can remember giving a talk about Ammon slicing off lots and lots of arms when I was, what, nine years old?
00:12:58.787 --> 00:13:00.369
Ten years old?
00:13:01.431 --> 00:13:03.413
And I remember being terrified.
00:13:04.066 --> 00:13:10.534
And the room where I gave the talk was tiny, and the number of people in the room was maybe 10 to 15.
00:13:11.495 --> 00:13:15.701
But that was my first foray into public speaking.
00:13:15.740 --> 00:13:19.746
And I've had so many different opportunities since then.
00:13:19.787 --> 00:13:27.496
And the church just sort of trained me to do that and have confidence in doing that as a rite of passage.
00:13:28.158 --> 00:13:30.961
It didn't even occur to me just how unusual that is.
00:13:31.618 --> 00:13:35.063
for somebody so young to have those kinds of opportunities.
00:13:35.565 --> 00:13:39.652
But I spoke in sacrament meeting before I hit my teenage years.
00:13:39.672 --> 00:13:49.327
I have been involved in all kinds of things that I wouldn't have been involved in had it not been for the church.
00:13:50.229 --> 00:14:08.078
And it's interesting, as you talk about the kinds of things that the church does personally, I knew about that sort of philosophically, but that became very real to me about 10 years ago when my daughter was injured.
00:14:09.419 --> 00:14:35.865
I have a 26-year-old daughter who at the age of 14, so this was 12 years ago, we went skiing on Valentine's Day of 2011, and she went tumbling down the mountain, 300 yards down the mountain while she was skiing, head over heels, and she blacked out, and we think she hit a tree.
00:14:37.466 --> 00:14:54.466
She doesn't remember because she ended up getting what they called a burst fracture in her spine that impinged on her spinal cord and left her partially paralyzed from the waist down.
00:14:55.457 --> 00:15:02.027
And this was just a devastating experience for her, obviously, but it was a devastating experience for our entire family.
00:15:02.047 --> 00:15:10.238
And within minutes, the ward was rallying to figure out a way to help us.
00:15:11.078 --> 00:15:19.269
Our bishop came and visited us in the hospital, gave us blessings while we were in the hospital waiting for our daughter while she was in surgery.
00:15:20.066 --> 00:15:28.135
When we got home, the entire ward had descended on our house, cleaned our house, fixed our house.
00:15:28.157 --> 00:15:29.958
They repainted her bedroom.
00:15:29.999 --> 00:15:40.552
We had a construction guy in our ward who installed railings to make our house more handicap accessible.
00:15:40.592 --> 00:15:47.501
And we had more lasagna than we knew what to do with because we just had all this food.
00:15:47.970 --> 00:15:49.390
being brought in to help us.
00:15:50.351 --> 00:15:56.918
Just on the drop of a hat, the church was able to sort of organize that and do that.
00:15:56.937 --> 00:16:16.897
And the church, for all of its flaws and problems on a macro level, on a micro level, on a ward level, on a community level, I don't know of an organization that is more effective at blessing people's lives than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
00:16:17.317 --> 00:16:30.970
And The confidence now that I have that if anything terrible were to happen to our family again, I know that the church would be on our doorstep that same day.
00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:36.336
And I think that's the experience of people worldwide throughout the church.
00:16:37.197 --> 00:16:47.710
We live in an area where there are so many church members that maybe that's not as impressive as areas where church members are sparse on the ground.
00:16:48.450 --> 00:17:00.548
But growing up in Southern California, where we had fewer church members in our immediate area, you would still see the church spring into action at a moment's notice.
00:17:01.067 --> 00:17:03.432
And I really think that's what the church does best.
00:17:03.532 --> 00:17:05.654
We do community very, very well.
00:17:06.496 --> 00:17:10.701
And I'm a little disturbed that part of that is going away.
00:17:12.265 --> 00:17:27.385
As we've been focused on what the church now talks about as a home-focused church-supported church, home-centered church-supported, we seem to be dismantling some of that apparatus.
00:17:28.067 --> 00:17:45.726
And that sense of community that was such a big deal for me growing up, we don't have the kinds of road shows and Boy Scouts and all the kinds of programs and things that build that kind of community anymore.
00:17:46.145 --> 00:17:57.402
And I'm a little nervous that the future of the church isn't going to be nearly as effective at that as the past has been.
00:17:57.481 --> 00:18:01.788
Am I too overly concerned, or is that something you see as well?
00:18:01.807 --> 00:18:09.337
I'm out of the church, as you know, so I don't see, I don't know about that, frankly.
00:18:10.199 --> 00:18:25.155
When we left, it went from day in terms of support, love, and service, it was basically the whole reach-out experience was switched off literally overnight.
00:18:25.195 --> 00:18:28.119
So that was sad.
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:34.509
It was a sudden, an immediate, wide-scale loss of community that was very, very painful for us.
00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:39.817
And since being out of the church, I can't speak to that definitively.
00:18:39.837 --> 00:19:12.779
I do hear that the church's message now is a more home-centered worship experience i don't know if that translates into less community involvement less community spirit i i hope it it doesn't to your point i i think that's one of the church's greatest attributes is its ability for its members or extraordinary people let's let's face it who are kind and loving who are motivated through love uh mostly and not feel because they have to.
00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:15.963
I think a lot of members, or they serve because they do care, they do love.
00:19:15.983 --> 00:19:20.048
And that's been my experience prior to leaving the church.
00:19:20.608 --> 00:19:26.394
But I hope it retains that quality because there's no organization.
00:19:26.414 --> 00:19:29.558
And I'm out the church and I deal with different organizations.
00:19:29.598 --> 00:19:39.609
And we have been to another church, a couple of churches over Christmas, where we have felt some community spirit, but not to the extent...
00:19:40.258 --> 00:19:47.025
that we felt while we're in the church and the level of service and reach out, especially during a crisis or an emergency.
00:19:47.066 --> 00:19:56.395
We don't know an organization that can match the power and the organization of the church in that sense.
00:19:57.336 --> 00:20:21.392
Just going back to, again, my personal experience, being called as a bishop, branch president on the mission, serving on a state presidency, but in particular the bishop's calling, As I was called at that time, the state president said, Ian, the bishop's calling puts you into the lives of the member in a very unique and a very personal way.
00:20:21.432 --> 00:20:23.795
And I didn't know what he meant by that.
00:20:23.855 --> 00:20:29.622
But within a space of days, actually, within a week, I realized what he meant.
00:20:29.882 --> 00:20:32.625
I had members wanting to meet with me.
00:20:32.665 --> 00:20:39.453
And then over a relatively short period of time, and I knew many of these members, I knew them quite well.
00:20:39.874 --> 00:20:49.846
And they opened up to me some of their personal struggles and issues, which were surprising and shocking in some way.
00:20:50.386 --> 00:21:01.421
But when I learned about their personal struggle, issues that they struggled with their entire lives, and at times they cried in front of me, sometimes we cried together.
00:21:01.461 --> 00:21:06.366
There were difficult moments as they opened up some of the challenges they're experiencing.
00:21:06.708 --> 00:21:07.628
But being able to...
00:21:08.705 --> 00:21:18.497
for them to share those things in confidence, strictest confidence, for them to know that that's not going to go anywhere, for them to know that I'm not judging them unkindly.
00:21:18.636 --> 00:21:24.483
Yes, we make a judgment on how we can help them, but we don't think less of people because they've got problems or issues.
00:21:25.424 --> 00:21:33.013
And for the bishop to have access to the ward and actually at times state resources to help this individual was incredible.
00:21:33.594 --> 00:21:58.396
And so I've seen that you can make the final decision yes you have council you can choose to accept or reject the council but at the end of the day the bishop makes the final decision for his ward and that was great on the stake presence the stake presence make the final decision for the stake and again if that decision power, if you want to call it power, is in the right hands, it can do extraordinary good.
00:21:58.737 --> 00:22:01.280
And that happens on an extraordinary scale.
00:22:01.540 --> 00:22:17.786
For those bishops or stakes who demonstrate poor leadership or the power goes to the head or they don't help the member as much or in a way that they could, which is a very, very, in my opinion, very small percentage from my experience.
00:22:18.446 --> 00:22:27.807
You know, the vast majority of leaders across the church, across the global church, perform extraordinary good on a very personal level in members' lives.
00:22:28.166 --> 00:22:37.638
You know, from helping someone to feed somebody to looking at where they can get work, the church has got an employment program, etc.
00:22:37.659 --> 00:22:55.023
I remember when I was younger and I handed him a notice for my job regarding me going on a mission and they were very angry with me that I was going on this crazy mission and I was actually told to clear my office drawer and leave immediately.
00:22:55.044 --> 00:22:56.465
I was gone within an hour or less.
00:22:57.346 --> 00:23:05.055
And I was relying on that extra money, but I found myself out of my job about two months before I served my mission.
00:23:05.655 --> 00:23:14.546
And so the bishop put me to work, and I went with the Relief Society president and a counselor to the bishop's storehouse, and we'd drive there about half an hour.
00:23:15.146 --> 00:23:21.453
We'd have all these orders that the bishop had signed off, these members, about 20 members in the ward who were struggling financially.
00:23:22.082 --> 00:23:52.757
we collected food from a storehouse that the church owned, operated in Sheffield in South Yorkshire in England and we spent a couple of hours just organising and packing all these food parcels that were extremely generous and there was other items that were added to that without being the request of the family or the member and so we then drove back and we delivered this is a all day, all weekend event.
00:23:52.817 --> 00:24:04.174
And so we delivered, well, all day event, no, let's say weekend, but we delivered these very large, very generous parcels of food under the direction of the bishop and the Relief Society.
00:24:04.355 --> 00:24:08.682
And we, I think it was 20 or 30 families that we delivered all these parcels.
00:24:08.742 --> 00:24:14.353
And I remember knocking on the door and and carrying this big parcel of food.
00:24:14.432 --> 00:24:19.438
And the look on those members' faces was extraordinary.
00:24:19.739 --> 00:24:20.839
Often it was quite emotional.
00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:21.460
There were tears.
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:23.501
They were so grateful.
00:24:23.541 --> 00:24:26.826
And that just really, really had a profound effect on me.
00:24:26.846 --> 00:24:29.868
This is two months before my mission, and I did this every...
00:24:30.750 --> 00:24:34.212
I think this was a weekly assignment that the bishop gave me because I was out of work.
00:24:34.452 --> 00:24:35.114
What am I going to do?
00:24:35.153 --> 00:24:36.414
I'm not going to apply for another job.
00:24:36.494 --> 00:24:38.917
I think I did some part-time work just to...
00:24:39.362 --> 00:24:42.266
compensate for that two months lack of salary.
00:24:42.385 --> 00:24:43.788
I think they still owe me for that two months.
00:24:44.388 --> 00:25:22.921
And so I've seen firsthand the physical, emotional response and the goodness that people have felt because the church, how it's organized, how it's structured, the motivation of its members to be able to reach out and to be able to help these families in a very, very profound way, in a way that actually is quite miraculous, and in a way that actually directly blesses the lives of families and children who are often struggling, who sometimes can't afford or don't know where the next meal's coming from.
00:25:22.961 --> 00:25:23.721
So I've seen that.
00:25:24.383 --> 00:25:38.272
And I don't think there's enough centralized areas of information which actually talks about all the good things that the church does.
00:25:38.313 --> 00:25:43.878
And so wanting to do this podcast with you on this particular subject has been something that I've thought about for quite some time.
00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:46.643
So I'm glad that we're having this conversation.
00:25:47.042 --> 00:26:02.541
Well, this may be a bit of a left turn, but the thing that, in listening to what you were talking about, the thing that breaks my heart is your statement that the minute you left the church, all of that was turned off.
00:26:03.842 --> 00:26:18.502
that the connection was completely severed, that nobody reached out, and that if anything were to happen, none of these people would come to your aid because your name isn't on the records of the church.
00:26:19.663 --> 00:26:25.972
And it's stunning to me how widespread that kind of a phenomenon is.
00:26:26.473 --> 00:26:49.326
As I've got sort of waded into the world of church apologetics, and dealing with people, I've discovered that there is a huge wellspring of decent, wonderful people who, for whatever reason, no longer find themselves within the boundaries of the church.
00:26:50.367 --> 00:26:52.690
Maybe they've made mistakes in their life.
00:26:53.010 --> 00:26:59.878
Maybe they've gone through a faith crisis where they don't feel like they can stay in the church for whatever reason.
00:27:00.500 --> 00:27:12.281
But all of the goodness that All of the decency, all of the integrity and intelligence that you're talking about, it doesn't vanish the minute your name falls off the church records.
00:27:12.982 --> 00:27:23.236
You are still, Ian Wilkes, the same decent, solid, generous, kind person you were when you were in the church.
00:27:24.136 --> 00:27:43.413
And yet, for whatever reason, that kind of demarcation sets a boundary for too many church members, where they say, okay, my compassion and my love only extends to those who are within the boundaries of the church.
00:27:44.576 --> 00:27:49.303
And that desperately needs to change, and there's no reason for it.
00:27:49.923 --> 00:27:53.489
And I was so encouraged at this most recent conference.
00:27:55.010 --> 00:27:59.637
I don't know if you paid any attention to the general conference this time around, but I...
00:27:59.938 --> 00:28:01.421
sitting in the choir loft.
00:28:01.520 --> 00:28:04.686
I listened to every session, at least every session that I was there.
00:28:04.707 --> 00:28:06.048
I was only there for three sessions.
00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:09.615
Another choir sing for other sessions, but that's completely irrelevant.
00:28:10.317 --> 00:28:18.852
Sunday morning, President Nelson took to the podium, and it was the first time he had spoken in this conference.
00:28:19.472 --> 00:28:30.348
And usually, President Nelson would speak He did produce the conference on Saturday morning, he'd speak on Saturday afternoon, and then he'd speak on Sunday morning, and he hadn't said anything.
00:28:30.409 --> 00:28:32.311
And I thought, okay, is he ill?
00:28:33.673 --> 00:28:35.036
Why is he not saying anything?
00:28:35.896 --> 00:28:47.794
And when he spoke, he made up for it, because that was easily the best talk he has ever given, and one of the best talks that anybody has ever given in conference.
00:28:48.535 --> 00:28:50.597
And it was talking about contention.
00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:59.143
And it was talking about the fact that we are not kind to each other when we interact online, when we interact with other people.
00:28:59.163 --> 00:29:09.338
I was sitting in the choir loft, and I audibly said the words, thank you, which shocked everybody around me when he said, I can remember the exact quote.
00:29:09.479 --> 00:29:18.493
He said, if somebody in your ward gets a divorce, or if a missionary comes home early, or if a teenager doubts his testimony...
00:29:18.978 --> 00:29:21.299
They do not need your judgment.
00:29:22.501 --> 00:29:24.323
And I just wanted to stand up and cheer.
00:29:24.343 --> 00:29:27.527
We need to hear more of those messages.
00:29:27.826 --> 00:29:31.830
I have never made a covenant to treat people like garbage.
00:29:32.451 --> 00:29:39.378
I have never made a covenant to sever ties of fellowship and kindness and love with people who leave the church.
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:49.192
And these people, overwhelmingly, the people who leave the church that I've talked to, are people who love the church.
00:29:49.373 --> 00:30:00.288
I mean, you clearly still have a lot of love and respect for the church, but there have been problems and challenges that have required you to step away.
00:30:00.327 --> 00:30:08.380
But all of that goodness that you had and all of the great things the church taught you, those aren't gone.
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.065
They don't vanish the minute you, the instant you leave the church.
00:30:12.786 --> 00:30:24.787
And I think there is this huge resource that the church needs to make use of, of people who are church, I like to call them church adjacent.
00:30:26.249 --> 00:30:28.371
They may not be members of the church.
00:30:29.192 --> 00:30:35.479
They may not ever have been members of the church, but they've had experiences with the church that are positive.
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:48.681
And we as a church just, we cut off our nose to spite our face by saying, oh, geez, well, they've left the church.
00:30:49.942 --> 00:30:50.523
Off they go.
00:30:50.564 --> 00:30:51.085
Forget it.
00:30:51.806 --> 00:30:54.430
Send them into the wilderness, and we'll just focus on our own.
00:30:54.450 --> 00:31:12.680
I want to believe that President Nelson's conference talk this time around was a turning point and was a sign that slowly but surely we're going to change that.
00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:14.001
I...
00:31:15.041 --> 00:31:41.488
I desperately have to believe that that can and will change because there are too many wonderful, good, decent people in this church for us to not recognize that how we deal with those who lead is really kind of lousy and really needs to change.
00:31:42.669 --> 00:31:43.690
I mean...
00:31:44.130 --> 00:32:04.136
From your perspective, what would you like to see from your friends or your former friends, and I hate to even describe them as former friends, but the people that you knew and that you were sharing this fellowship with when you were in the church and when you were in a stake presidency, what would you like them to do now?
00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.381
If they knocked on your door and said...
00:32:08.034 --> 00:32:14.020
been terrible to you and we'd love to be your friend again, whether or not you're a member of the church, would that be something you would welcome?
00:32:14.942 --> 00:32:14.981
Of
00:32:15.082 --> 00:32:15.362
course.
00:32:15.603 --> 00:32:16.864
It's a great question.
00:32:16.884 --> 00:32:43.402
All we ever want, all we ever thought we had was something that we've had or felt we had over decades was friendships, extraordinary friendships, friendships friendships forged out of love and service and kindness and being there for each other, you know, being consistent, a real friend in the true sense of the meaning.
00:32:43.442 --> 00:32:46.988
I didn't listen to President Nelson's talk.
00:32:47.048 --> 00:32:51.174
You and I have chatted about that when we were together in Salt Lake recently in person.
00:32:51.194 --> 00:32:53.858
I really enjoyed catching up with you in person.
00:32:53.898 --> 00:32:56.163
I've heard about President Nelson's talk.
00:32:56.804 --> 00:32:58.205
I hope it translates well.
00:32:58.786 --> 00:33:01.769
soon across the rank and files of the church.
00:33:03.871 --> 00:33:18.605
For over 35 years, myself, my family, I've been the recipients of extraordinary good by being part of the church, serving and being served and being supported.
00:33:18.625 --> 00:33:21.749
It's been a source of just wonderful joy.
00:33:21.788 --> 00:33:25.772
And that has come through relationships that we...
00:33:27.394 --> 00:33:57.131
value you know lifelong relationships that we value extraordinarily and so and then again you know when you're in a calling or a leadership calling where it puts you into the lives especially as a bishop or a state president or a member of the state president it puts a member's lives in a very personal way if you're an auxiliary leader you really don't get into the lives of those that you serve with like a bishop can.
00:33:57.290 --> 00:34:05.961
You know, the bishop hears things, sees things, feel things, and experiences things in a way that very few callings allow.
00:34:06.401 --> 00:34:08.023
So you get very, very close.
00:34:08.063 --> 00:34:32.829
So in the wards that I've served, in the stake that I've served, where I felt, or we felt as a family, that we've got lifelong relationships that will never change, imagine, if you will, the pain and shock, a significant pain and shock, certainly for me, when those relationships turn out or it appears to turn out to be conditional on our activity.
00:34:33.570 --> 00:34:36.695
And so that was an absolute shock.
00:34:36.735 --> 00:35:04.501
And I'll get to your question in a second, but we went literally from night and day from being part of a community to being ostracized and being literally cut out, people disconnecting on Facebook and and disconnecting on other ways, hearing very negative comments about me and my family, very painful things, even referenced in a couple of talks as an example of somebody who's fallen from a great height.
00:35:04.521 --> 00:35:05.503
That's what I heard.
00:35:06.164 --> 00:35:09.588
You know, very, very painful, something that I struggled with for a number of months.
00:35:10.190 --> 00:35:27.304
But during that time, JMI, I wanted to find out why we could go from this, what we thought was extraordinary closeness that was very profound for us and very meaningful for us to 98% disconnection, I would say, within days.
00:35:27.385 --> 00:35:34.114
And so as I've asked questions, I've been told why this is, why this has happened this way.
00:35:34.155 --> 00:35:45.210
And here's what I've been told by a number of people that do keep in touch with us, that have heard from our stake award, why they don't want anything to do with this.
00:35:45.791 --> 00:35:47.233
One is because I've resigned.
00:35:47.253 --> 00:35:50.038
Because I've resigned, I'm no longer...
00:35:50.626 --> 00:35:53.409
they don't see me as a prospect for reactivation.
00:35:53.449 --> 00:35:56.996
And they see me as a lost soul.
00:35:57.576 --> 00:36:03.646
So again, I'm just sharing with you what I've heard as to why we've been cut off.
00:36:04.286 --> 00:36:10.215
So when you resign, you are no longer a candidate for reactivation.
00:36:10.235 --> 00:36:15.963
I even had somebody say to me, Ian, what's your status of the church?
00:36:16.784 --> 00:36:19.730
Jokingly, they said, if you're less active, we'll still pray for you.
00:36:20.193 --> 00:36:22.518
If you're not, then we might not.
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.505
They said it in a joking way, but there's an old saying, isn't there?
00:36:25.545 --> 00:36:28.152
There's off-truth spoken in jest.
00:36:29.155 --> 00:36:30.438
And I think that is the truth.
00:36:30.478 --> 00:36:38.168
I think if you're resigned, then you're not on the roster or you're not on the list of reactivation.
00:36:38.248 --> 00:36:40.572
Essentially, there's no hope for you because you resigned.
00:36:40.833 --> 00:36:42.976
You are in the hands of Satan.
00:36:43.016 --> 00:36:43.577
You've resigned.
00:36:43.617 --> 00:36:44.980
You've taken your family out of the church.
00:36:45.601 --> 00:36:47.003
Another reason is resources.
00:36:47.523 --> 00:36:48.907
They don't spend the resources.
00:36:49.067 --> 00:36:56.639
They only spend resources on those who are less active because they can come back and receive the fullness of the blessings, the temple, the priest, etc.
00:36:57.101 --> 00:37:07.016
Third, By resigning, I've disconnected myself from the preacher blessings, from the temple blessings, and therefore I'm now an apostate because I've rejected the church.
00:37:07.697 --> 00:37:36.347
And the other point I was told was my resignation and now leaving the church as a family has essentially translated into the members locally feeling that we've rejected them by going inactive, by resigning, we have said, or this is how it's interpreted, we've sent a message to say, look, we want nothing to do with you, which is not the case.
00:37:37.108 --> 00:37:46.824
And they've interpreted this as that we rejected them personally, which we haven't, of course, we've not rejected them.
00:37:47.105 --> 00:37:55.269
So in my research and my conversations, these are the reasons why I've been told why our farm has been cut off.
00:37:55.550 --> 00:38:04.007
To get to your question, if someone knocked on the door randomly and just, what would be my expectations?
00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:06.773
It would be just to be a friend, just be a friend to us.
00:38:06.793 --> 00:38:07.596
We've not changed.
00:38:08.237 --> 00:38:08.938
We're still the same.
00:38:09.458 --> 00:38:14.128
We still hold to many of the values, even some of the basic beliefs.
00:38:14.978 --> 00:38:15.759
Not all of them.
00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:21.385
Our thoughts and views on certain things have changed, in some cases quite significantly.
00:38:21.827 --> 00:38:26.652
But as people, we've not turned evil.
00:38:26.793 --> 00:38:33.222
We're not worshipping gops, anything like that, or doing strange things.
00:38:33.282 --> 00:38:34.222
We're still good people.
00:38:34.242 --> 00:38:35.505
We still reach out to the community.
00:38:35.525 --> 00:38:45.704
I think one of the most painful things, Jim, that happened was to learn that we were no longer part of the food drive I was the chairman of the food drive.
00:38:45.744 --> 00:38:50.210
I actually launched the food drive program years ago.
00:38:50.231 --> 00:38:53.454
That was my assignment as a council on the state presidency.
00:38:53.494 --> 00:38:54.096
That was my job.
00:38:54.996 --> 00:38:58.902
And wonderful experience and was successful with a team of people.
00:38:58.942 --> 00:39:00.123
Of course, it was all a team effort.
00:39:01.005 --> 00:39:04.268
And we launched an extraordinary food drive that continues to this day.
00:39:04.289 --> 00:39:07.693
It's one of the most successful food drives across British Columbia.
00:39:08.418 --> 00:39:09.679
Certainly in our area.
00:39:09.719 --> 00:39:11.902
I wasn't responsible for British Gully, but certainly in my area.
00:39:12.724 --> 00:39:14.847
And it's been wonderful.
00:39:14.907 --> 00:39:16.989
And we're now no longer part of that.
00:39:17.590 --> 00:39:18.771
We don't get invited to that.
00:39:19.914 --> 00:40:03.541
And it's sad that we're not part of a community event that goes around and organizes and collects food for the most needy in our community that even that's been disconnected so all we would expect is just to be a friend just to keep us involved from a community perspective don't make awful comments about us in a talk don't tell talk about me that I'm a failed father or I've led my family astray or you know where I'm in league with Lucifer or you know destructive father or parent because that's extremely painful and And, you know, completely, you know, my kids, when they heard about that, was just, that's what sent them out of the church.
00:40:03.981 --> 00:40:10.128
Those negative things about myself and our family was just what was why the rest of them left.
00:40:11.088 --> 00:40:11.949
So just be a friend.
00:40:11.989 --> 00:40:12.791
Don't judge us.
00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:13.592
Be kind.
00:40:14.472 --> 00:40:16.034
Don't try to convert us back.
00:40:16.094 --> 00:40:17.215
Don't make us a project.
00:40:17.255 --> 00:40:21.639
I've heard that our family name is a special project.
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:23.001
Don't make us a special project.
00:40:23.554 --> 00:40:27.057
If we don't want to come out or don't want to get reactivated, just respect that.
00:40:27.538 --> 00:40:29.559
But just be our friend for the sake of being friends.
00:40:30.380 --> 00:40:33.623
And please keep us involved in the food drive.
00:40:34.264 --> 00:40:35.846
I don't think that's too much to ask.
00:40:36.387 --> 00:40:40.331
But sadly, you know, the relationships have severed.
00:40:41.291 --> 00:40:43.333
The people that have severed the relationships, I don't...
00:40:44.235 --> 00:40:44.795
Not anymore.
00:40:44.815 --> 00:40:45.836
I was quite hurt.
00:40:46.376 --> 00:40:47.458
I still am in some ways.
00:40:47.478 --> 00:40:49.760
It would be inaccurate to say I'm not hurt, but...
00:40:52.065 --> 00:40:55.851
I still love them and I think they still care for us in some way.
00:40:55.871 --> 00:41:02.878
I don't feel as bad as I used to about these individuals.
00:41:02.938 --> 00:41:03.940
I think they're wonderful people.
00:41:04.400 --> 00:41:06.724
I mean, I know them and they do extraordinarily good.
00:41:06.744 --> 00:41:16.514
And so I've moved past the hurt stage and through the sadness stage through to feeling stronger and resolved.
00:41:16.554 --> 00:41:17.637
And I've made new friends now.
00:41:17.757 --> 00:41:21.762
So, you know, they cut us off and we...
00:41:23.554 --> 00:41:25.996
we then make new friends in the community.
00:41:26.338 --> 00:41:33.648
And we've got those friendships now that are not reliant or conditional on activity going to any particular religion.
00:41:34.528 --> 00:41:44.362
We're friends because they like us or they love us or they want to be our friend because it's something that we have those personal interests.
00:41:45.824 --> 00:41:47.266
So friendship, just be a friend.
00:41:47.306 --> 00:41:48.849
That would be my answer to your question.
00:41:50.070 --> 00:41:52.373
The one thing that you said that I hadn't thought about...
00:41:53.057 --> 00:42:03.510
that I think is kind of interesting and I want to explore a little bit is people interpret your decision to leave as a personal rejection of them.
00:42:03.550 --> 00:42:06.554
And that's interesting.
00:42:06.614 --> 00:42:24.353
And I thought, okay, that may even be the one justifiable, justifiable is the wrong word, the one understandable reason why people might not connect with you is that they may feel that you have rejected them.
00:42:24.373 --> 00:42:30.523
And I thought, sheesh, I know so many people who have left the church.
00:42:31.324 --> 00:42:33.427
I have so many good friends who have left the church.
00:42:33.507 --> 00:42:49.813
And people are seeing this on a rather widespread scale because if the statistics are to be believed, it's anywhere between 60 and 80% of Generation Z leave the church before they're 18 years old.
00:42:49.833 --> 00:42:55.202
I mean, we are seeing lots and lots of people leaving the church.
00:42:56.023 --> 00:43:11.085
The official statistics don't tell that story, but the anecdotal experience of most members of the church is that people now know friends and members of their own family who are leaving.
00:43:12.193 --> 00:43:14.836
And that's happening to a large degree.
00:43:14.876 --> 00:43:17.400
People are going through faith crises.
00:43:17.481 --> 00:43:22.686
People are getting frustrated with the church or they're having a problem with church history or whatever else it is.
00:43:23.447 --> 00:43:30.697
But the number of people who are leaving the church, in my experience, from what I can see, is in fact accelerating.
00:43:31.998 --> 00:43:37.105
And it doesn't occur to me to take that personally.
00:43:37.125 --> 00:43:42.882
I mean, I would never think, oh, gee, so, you know, he had left the church and Ian's rejecting me.
00:43:44.425 --> 00:43:47.527
That wouldn't make any sense to me to think of it in those terms.
00:43:49.530 --> 00:44:06.349
But I can see how people might think of that in those terms, particularly people in your neighborhood, people in your area, people that you've worked with, and that you've had, you know, as a leader, you've had this kind of one-on-one experience with so many of them.
00:44:07.048 --> 00:44:11.559
And they I can imagine them looking at that and saying, well, geez, didn't that mean anything to him?
00:44:11.599 --> 00:44:14.605
I'm not justifying it.
00:44:14.744 --> 00:44:17.228
I'm saying that's something I hadn't considered.
00:44:17.268 --> 00:44:35.418
And I'm wondering if maybe there is something there that we need to address because we need to get to a point where friendship is not conditional upon church membership.
00:44:36.161 --> 00:44:39.686
and where friendship can endure when church membership does not.
00:44:41.710 --> 00:44:43.271
People need to do that in families.
00:44:43.331 --> 00:44:44.873
People need to do that in marriages.
00:44:45.875 --> 00:44:48.539
I see the experience of mixed-faith marriages.
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:59.653
You have people that get married, and both of them are faithful, and they get married in the temple, and then one of them goes through a faith crisis and decides they just can't believe anymore, but they don't want to leave the marriage.
00:45:00.996 --> 00:45:05.442
And yet, that happens.
00:45:06.050 --> 00:45:08.992
You know, I'm seeing that.
00:45:09.012 --> 00:45:15.458
I don't have permission to say who I'm seeing that in, but I see that.
00:45:15.498 --> 00:45:28.391
For instance, my sister was telling me the other day, oh, this person who you did this with, oh, that's his new wife, because his first wife left the church, so he had to divorce her.
00:45:29.692 --> 00:45:30.793
And I went, no, he didn't.
00:45:30.873 --> 00:45:32.335
He didn't have to divorce her.
00:45:32.795 --> 00:45:34.137
He chose to divorce her.
00:45:35.177 --> 00:45:46.268
But But if a marriage is based solely upon and is only contingent upon membership in the church, that just breaks my heart.
00:45:46.489 --> 00:45:47.851
That makes me very, very sad.
00:45:47.891 --> 00:45:52.018
If my wife were to leave the church, I would not leave my wife.
00:45:54.262 --> 00:45:56.286
So I don't know.
00:45:56.867 --> 00:45:58.369
That's very difficult.
00:45:58.588 --> 00:46:00.994
But to me, I think...
00:46:02.177 --> 00:46:08.264
You know, we've highlighted so many of the things the church does well, and the church continues to do things well.
00:46:08.445 --> 00:46:15.833
And the church, the members of the church, by and large, are good, decent, wonderful people.
00:46:16.853 --> 00:46:25.885
And good, decent, wonderful people should know better than to cut other good, decent, wonderful people out of their lives just because they're not members of the church.
00:46:26.985 --> 00:46:30.409
I mean, that strikes me as so...
00:46:31.233 --> 00:47:08.148
obvious that it doesn't need to be said and yet it needs to be said over and over and over again and online you know i wander into twitter wars and it is stunning to me the the members of the church online are not only the worst members of the church but they're some of the worst people People who go online and anonymously decide that they're going to be the champions for the church, all they do is dump on other people.
00:47:08.429 --> 00:47:15.536
And I've had wild, weird pictures of me posted because I'm a member of the church.
00:47:15.556 --> 00:47:17.137
I'm a member of the Tabernacle Choir.
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:18.920
I'm a believing member of the church.
00:47:19.221 --> 00:47:25.474
I remember once there was a guy who posted a There were four pictures.
00:47:26.456 --> 00:47:28.498
And there was a picture of David O.
00:47:28.538 --> 00:47:31.561
McKay and a picture of Heber J.
00:47:31.621 --> 00:47:37.407
Grant and a picture of my father, who was a senator from Utah.
00:47:37.706 --> 00:47:41.710
And then there was a picture of me that they found on Facebook with my hair all wild.
00:47:41.771 --> 00:47:44.112
And I posted it for fun, but I look ridiculous.
00:47:44.934 --> 00:47:47.596
And they said, you know, what's wrong with this?
00:47:47.655 --> 00:47:49.458
Look how far this guy has fallen.
00:47:49.498 --> 00:47:53.641
And I thought, sheesh, you spent at least an hour on that.
00:47:54.530 --> 00:47:59.896
You hate me enough that you feel like you have to mock me and you won't even tell me your real name.
00:47:59.916 --> 00:48:05.001
You know, they hide behind these fake names and they post this garbage about me online.
00:48:05.822 --> 00:48:08.126
And this happens on a regular basis.
00:48:08.266 --> 00:48:13.791
And there are a number of people this happens to who are in the church, not even who are out of the church.
00:48:14.773 --> 00:48:17.215
And I just, I don't understand it.
00:48:17.436 --> 00:48:18.717
I don't understand it.
00:48:19.938 --> 00:48:31.773
with all of the wonderful things and the wonderful people that the church produces, why we can't get this right?
00:48:32.333 --> 00:48:34.036
Why we can't fix this problem?
00:48:35.318 --> 00:48:38.121
I think I have a couple of answers to that.
00:48:38.141 --> 00:48:39.804
I listened intently to what you said.
00:48:39.844 --> 00:48:43.019
I've got something that I think may answer that.
00:48:43.300 --> 00:48:46.224
But I think you are, for some, you're an anomaly.
00:48:46.264 --> 00:48:48.347
They don't know how to deal with you.
00:48:48.427 --> 00:48:52.331
You're conventional, traditional in some ways to the church, right?
00:48:52.371 --> 00:48:58.438
And attractive to the more conservative elements of the membership.
00:48:58.878 --> 00:49:13.445
But in other ways, on other opinions of views that you've got, you are more liberal, you're more open, and again, become less attractive, less palatable to that more conservative, hardcore traditional, conventional thinking.
00:49:13.525 --> 00:49:27.903
So you appeal to, I think, as we all do in some ways, you're more publicly well-known than I am, and so you connect with a much larger audience.
00:49:28.445 --> 00:49:40.400
So depending on the particular topic, you will be accepted by the hardcore, maybe more conventional members, but on other things where you think more liberally, then you probably fall out of favor.
00:49:40.420 --> 00:49:45.766
And I think that's the case with me and with lots of people that leave the church.
00:49:45.846 --> 00:49:46.887
And this is to my point.
00:49:47.608 --> 00:49:59.019
So when we resign or leave the church, as I've been told, locally, that has been interpreted locally as a rejection of not just them personally.
00:49:59.059 --> 00:50:18.585
Let me get to the point, be more specific here, is that what that means to to the members, or to the member, is that because an individual has resigned or left, they no longer subscribe to the values or the doctrines, in particular the values, as in my case.
00:50:18.786 --> 00:50:31.282
And so they automatically think, or many of them think, that they've rejected the church, rejected the doctrine, rejected the values, therefore doesn't have the same values that we do.
00:50:31.322 --> 00:50:33.565
It's walked away from them, abandoned them.
00:50:34.626 --> 00:50:48.664
Therefore, if you look at the teachings, and this is the point I'm making, if you look at the doctrine, the teachings, and in many, many talks, Jim, where general authorities have said we don't, and I wish I could remember the specific examples.
00:50:48.724 --> 00:51:00.059
I think it's really important to remember these examples, where general authorities said that we shouldn't mix or associate with those who have left the church or rejected the church or gone apostate.
00:51:00.139 --> 00:51:01.500
I can't remember the specific talks.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:04.603
I thought it was Elder Oaks or Elder Holland, I can't remember.
00:51:04.623 --> 00:51:06.244
He's one of the general authorities.
00:51:06.284 --> 00:51:09.168
There's been a number of talks like this and we should look into them.
00:51:09.588 --> 00:51:21.820
And so the members, local members here, some of them have been told not to mix with us, not to associate with us because we no longer believe the doctrine or all the doctrine.
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:30.668
We no longer subscribe to the common values and the virtues that the church subscribes to, which is, you know, untrue.
00:51:30.929 --> 00:51:31.789
That's completely false.
00:51:32.322 --> 00:51:41.231
And so they make a connection, there's a personal connection, relationship between the individual and what they believe.
00:51:42.092 --> 00:51:56.369
And so if they don't believe the same stuff or accept everything, you know, and they've walked off the covenant path and reject some of the teachings or the history, etc., they're not worth having a relationship with.
00:51:57.730 --> 00:52:04.599
Because they don't have the same values and they're taught not to associate with people that don't have the same values.
00:52:04.898 --> 00:52:04.978
Well,
00:52:04.998 --> 00:52:12.027
I think you have something there with regard to the idea that you're dangerous.
00:52:13.369 --> 00:52:16.634
You know, you are a contagion.
00:52:17.675 --> 00:52:20.599
You are somebody that may spread doubt.
00:52:20.998 --> 00:52:22.842
It's not that you're going to pull them out of the church.
00:52:22.942 --> 00:52:26.146
It's that, oh gosh, if Ian Wilkes can leave...
00:52:26.914 --> 00:52:33.240
And I know Ian Wilkes is bright, and I know Ian Wilkes is compassionate and kind.
00:52:33.260 --> 00:52:46.034
I think people are scared and are terrified to some degree that, okay, well, jeez, if Ian can leave, maybe I can leave, and I don't want to go anywhere near that.
00:52:46.755 --> 00:52:49.239
And it isn't necessarily I don't want to go anywhere near Ian.
00:52:49.878 --> 00:52:59.054
It's I don't want to go anywhere where I'm going to be asked to consider challenging, difficult questions about the church.
00:52:59.996 --> 00:53:08.769
I mean, the fact that missionaries, yes, we were counseled to drop people who weren't serious and drop members who were going to be reactivated, et cetera, et cetera.
00:53:09.411 --> 00:53:13.677
I think that's less problematic than what we do when we get home.
00:53:13.898 --> 00:53:26.250
I mean, when you're a missionary, you're on a very specific, you have very limited resources, you have very limited time, and you're in this two-year bubble of where, yeah, your goal is to get out there and find as many people who will join the church as possible.
00:53:27.471 --> 00:53:48.672
But when you get home and you're building a community and building a life, you know, I remember one more mission leader, we were explaining this really goofy program that had come down where you go to a gas station or go to some place and just ambush somebody and give them a Book of Mormon.
00:53:49.333 --> 00:53:52.610
And I remember him saying to me, hey, We have to live here.
00:53:54.653 --> 00:53:56.735
We're going to be here after you're gone.
00:53:56.795 --> 00:53:58.197
You're here for a few months.
00:53:58.677 --> 00:53:59.798
We have to live here.
00:53:59.838 --> 00:54:21.452
And I think the standard should be very different when you're living somewhere and someone is part of the community and you're going to be living near them and around them to just drop them when they take action that you don't like and I think that's a real problem.
00:54:21.612 --> 00:54:42.983
But the other problem that you're highlighting is that there is a real fear among leaders and among members of anything that could raise difficult questions and create difficult challenges.
00:54:43.764 --> 00:54:47.949
And your existence raises difficult questions for people.
00:54:48.577 --> 00:54:56.387
They look at you and they say, oh gosh, jeez, if Ian Wilkes can doubt, then maybe I can too.
00:54:57.487 --> 00:55:08.161
And the other thing that happens is that they have to demonize you to justify themselves.
00:55:09.322 --> 00:55:11.585
They have to say, no, there's no way.
00:55:11.605 --> 00:55:13.706
Ian Wilkes is miserable now.
00:55:13.807 --> 00:55:15.550
His life has gone off the rails.
00:55:16.257 --> 00:55:22.326
He can't be happy because he's not in the church, because the church is the only way to be happy.
00:55:22.365 --> 00:55:26.692
And I've heard that from the pulpit.
00:55:26.751 --> 00:55:30.577
I heard that most recently from Elder Bednar at Sister Banks' funeral.
00:55:30.617 --> 00:55:36.625
Elder Bednar was there and spoke, and that was his message.
00:55:36.744 --> 00:55:40.909
His message was, you cannot be happy if you are not in the church.
00:55:41.931 --> 00:55:43.534
And that's simply not true.
00:55:44.289 --> 00:55:45.931
It's simply not true.
00:55:45.952 --> 00:55:57.585
And I think it terrifies people to come face to face with the reality that there are happy, good, decent people who have left the church and have been able to find happiness.
00:55:58.065 --> 00:56:01.951
Some find greater happiness outside the church.
00:56:02.992 --> 00:56:14.460
And it sort of pulls the rug out from under their faith because their faith is in the idea that this is the only true church that And it's the only true way to be happy.
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:20.686
And it's the only, I mean, it eliminates the exclusivity.
00:56:20.706 --> 00:56:23.148
It makes them feel less special.
00:56:24.489 --> 00:56:26.592
And I think that's a huge problem.
00:56:26.871 --> 00:56:37.101
This is really interesting because I hadn't considered this as extensively until I listened to what you were saying with regard to your experience.
00:56:37.802 --> 00:56:45.681
I'm hopeful that this podcast can be the beginning of a conversation where people address that.
00:56:46.481 --> 00:56:53.168
Because it's, you know, Eldon Eyring once said, you don't have to believe anything in this church that isn't true.
00:56:53.208 --> 00:57:01.376
And I cling to that when goofy things are said and hurtful things are said that are simply not true.
00:57:01.396 --> 00:57:08.543
I hope the President Nelson's message about contention and about judgment, I hope that continues to grow.
00:57:08.764 --> 00:57:10.545
I hope we move in that direction.
00:57:11.170 --> 00:57:17.378
I see too much evidence that we're not moving in that direction, or at least not moving as quickly as I would like.
00:57:18.298 --> 00:57:21.422
And so I hope that we can get there.
00:57:21.461 --> 00:57:24.565
Our time is short here for this episode.
00:57:25.166 --> 00:57:27.510
Just have a couple of quick comments real quick here.
00:57:27.610 --> 00:57:28.771
I know we come into the end there.
00:57:29.291 --> 00:57:44.505
I think the last few minutes has been extremely significant in the way you have articulated and summarized one of the major problems issues in a particular area that we're talking about.
00:57:44.545 --> 00:57:47.108
And so it brings me to a question.
00:57:47.148 --> 00:57:51.672
I've been out now for seven years, seven and a half years.
00:57:51.713 --> 00:57:57.460
How many times, how many people rather have asked me why have I left?
00:57:58.880 --> 00:57:59.262
Do you think?
00:57:59.302 --> 00:58:01.043
My
00:58:01.103 --> 00:58:05.869
guess is if there are any, it's in single digits, but I'm
00:58:05.909 --> 00:58:06.750
guessing is zero.
00:58:07.329 --> 00:58:07.690
Zero.
00:58:08.391 --> 00:58:13.690
So not one person has asked me Ian, why did you leave?
00:58:14.409 --> 00:58:15.050
Not one person.
00:58:15.472 --> 00:58:16.432
We're actually happier.
00:58:16.873 --> 00:58:20.197
We're less judgmental as well.
00:58:20.277 --> 00:58:33.534
We don't have some of the baggage, all the doctrines that you have to navigate and try to work through gymnastics or trying to make sense of things that don't make sense.
00:58:34.115 --> 00:58:41.489
And so I think You've summarized extremely well, and I'm so glad that we were able to have this conversation.
00:58:42.088 --> 00:58:58.969
We remain mostly positive towards the church, cannot, will not forget the extraordinary goodness that the church has done in our lives on a personal level, and the extraordinary good that the church has done over the years to millions of people in the church and out in the church.
00:58:59.521 --> 00:59:05.728
and the extraordinary good that the church continues to deliver to people's lives, again, in and out the church.
00:59:06.809 --> 00:59:08.871
And that will never change.
00:59:09.271 --> 00:59:11.893
I said at the beginning that the church saved my life.
00:59:12.173 --> 00:59:14.056
It did on so many levels.
00:59:15.157 --> 00:59:21.762
The decision to join the church at the time was undoubtedly the best decision I ever made and my family ever made.
00:59:21.983 --> 00:59:28.148
But the decision to leave also has been equally the best decision that we have made as well.
00:59:28.188 --> 00:59:33.135
So Again, the church is a force for good, mostly.
00:59:33.177 --> 00:59:41.514
And if it can improve in the areas that it knows it should, then I think the church will be even better for sure.
00:59:42.655 --> 00:59:44.539
Well, I'll let that be the last word.
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:47.085
I think that that's a great way to sum this up.
00:59:48.001 --> 00:59:54.579
And for those of you listening, please make sure to like us and to subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts.
00:59:55.360 --> 00:59:58.128
And until next time, we'll see you on Inside Out.
00:59:58.349 --> 00:59:59.371
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:00:00.213 --> 01:00:00.394
Thank
01:00:00.434 --> 01:00:00.594
you,
01:00:00.635 --> 01:00:00.856
Jim.
