Eric Zimmer┃How a Little Becomes a Lot: The Small Choices That Transform Your Life

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And if you were a director filming that, that would
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be a really big moment. That's the turning point. And
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it's an important moment. But it's only important because of
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the thousands of choices that came after it.
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Right?
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It would have just been yet another attempt at sobriety
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that didn't work had I not done all those little
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things again and again and again.
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What if changing your life has less to do with
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one big breakthrough... and more to do with the small
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choices you make when nobody is watching. Today, I sit
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down with author and the One You Feed podcast creator,
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Eric Zimmer, to explore what lasting transformation actually looks like.
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Eric shares how he went from being homeless, addicted to heroin,
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and facing decades in prison, to building a life centered
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around recovery, service, spiritual practice, and meaningful work, and why
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the turning point wasn't a single moment of clarity, but
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the thousands of choices along the way. We explore why
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self-compassion may actually make us better at changing, how to
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recognize the critical choice points where resistance and self-doubt show up,
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and why learning to coach instead of criticizing yourself can
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completely alter the trajectory of your life. Eric also reveals
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why perfection is such a destructive measuring stick for progress
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and how doing the next small positive thing again and
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again can eventually become something much bigger. Hey, Zimmer, welcome
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to the Radical Responsibility Podcast.
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Thank you, Fleet. I really appreciate you having me here.
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It's an honor.
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Oh, I've been looking forward to the conversation. You had
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me on your podcast a couple of years ago, the
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One You Feed podcast. So glad to exchange that here
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and really looking forward to sharing more about you and
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your background, your work with our audience. So thank you
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very much for being here today. So I'm going to
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share a brief bio and just familiarize the audience a
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little bit, and then we'll jump right in. Sound good?
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Sounds great.
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Okay. So Eric Zimmer is an author, teacher, speaker, and
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the creator of the One You Feed podcast, an award-winning
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show with over 50 million downloads across 800-plus conversations exploring
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meaningful living. At 24, Eric was homeless, addicted to heroin,
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and facing prison. The journey from those depths sparked his
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lifelong journey into human transformation and resilience. Through his behavior
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coaching workshops mentorship, he has guided thousands worldwide in creating
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sustainable habits that last, not through willpower or epiphany, but
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through steady change. His approach combines cutting-edge science with timeless wisdom,
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providing practical pathways to greater integrity and deeper meaning. His
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story and his work have been featured in the media,
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including Elephant Journal, the BBC, and Brain Pickings. His new
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book is How to Become a Lot. How to Become
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a Lot. How to Become a Lot. That's great. How
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recent is it?
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It's How a Little Becomes a Lot.
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Oh, How a Little Becomes a... Unfortunately, my printer printed
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this out and I can barely read it. How a
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Little Becomes a Lot, The Art of Small Changes... For
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a more meaningful life. Yes. You got it. When did
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that come out?
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End of March. So it's been about six months.
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Yeah. Great. How's it doing?
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I think it's good. You know, I haven't been asking
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about sales numbers because I don't know what I'd really
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do with that information. I'm just, you know, it's out there.
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I hear from people that they're getting a lot out
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of it and I enjoy talking about it. So I
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think from that perspective, it's going great.
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Great and uh hopefully this will bring more attention to
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it because i'm sure it's a great book and you
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know so much just in reading your bio there's so
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much alignment between what heart mind is all about and
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my work and your work we really share this that
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uh you know evidence-based work to create incremental change that
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leads to really thriving in our lives and it's not
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just by having one epiphany i mean you can have
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some fabulous experiences by various means but they got to
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be integrated over time and to create the really lasting
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change and so I know that's what your work is about.
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And so excited to have this conversation. So we like
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to start our conversations off with a little bit of
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an origin story. I know that could take the whole
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episode just to review that. But maybe we can touch
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it in a nutshell a little bit. I mean, your story,
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a lot of identification here. I have my own time
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of being really caught up in drugs and addiction and
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ended up in prison myself for 14 years. So we
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have a lot of shared background there. And I'm wondering
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whether there was a moment or period that you realized
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that change wasn't going to come just through wishful thinking
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or through luck, or you shifted maybe from thinking you
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were in a situation you were in because it was
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somebody else's fault or the world's fault or your parents' fault.
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Not that people don't make contributions to our situations, but
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But you embraced what I call this idea of radical responsibility,
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this idea of ownership to say, what can I do
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to shift my life? What can I do to move
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my life forward in a positive way that would really
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be a better match than what's been going on up
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till now? So was there a moment when you had
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that kind of realization that shifted things for you?
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Well, as my book talks about a lot, you know,
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I think that it's not a single moment of realization.
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Everything is accumulation. of experiences, right? So if you were
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watching the movie of my life, you'd see me walk
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into a treatment center in Columbus, Ohio. It was an
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old tuberculosis center in the winter. And this is when
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I was homeless. I weighed 100 pounds. I was jaundiced.
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I was yellow from hepatitis C. And they said, we
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think you need to go to long-term treatment. And I said, no,
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thank you. And I went back to my room and
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I had a moment of clarity where I saw like,
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if I leave here, I'm going to, I'm going to
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go to, I'm going to die or go to jail.
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Right.
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I mean, I got 50 years of prison time sitting
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right out there. And if you were, and so I
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went back out and said, I'll go to treatment. And
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if you were a director filming that, that would be
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a really big moment. That's the turning point. And it's
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an important moment, but it's only important because of the
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thousands of choices that came after it. It would have
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just been yet another attempt at sobriety that didn't work
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had I not done all those little things again and
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again and again. And I think the wishful thinking for
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me in addiction was that the day would come where
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I would pull the ripcord and go to this thing
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called treatment. And once I did, then I would be sober.
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And after I pulled that ripcord a few times and
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went and wasn't sober, that was a difficult period for
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me because I had to lose the wishful thinking. I
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saw like, oh, wait, this isn't just going to go away.
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Like I'm not going to walk into a treatment center
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and they're going to fix me. Like I sort of
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dreamt in my dreams. It's sort of like the myth
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we often have about therapy. Oh, you just go to
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therapy and suddenly you'll be fine.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, therapy is a wonderful thing and there's
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a journey to go on. And so I think for me,
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that was the wishful thinking I carried around in those days.
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And then the responsibility that it was a strange responsibility
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because I also realized that, A, I was responsible myself
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for it, but I could not do it alone. So
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it was, you know, it was both a recognizing I
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have to do it, but also a Letting go of
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I have to do it all myself moment also, kind
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of both at the same time in a weird way.
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That really kind of encapsulates the 12-step philosophy in many ways.
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The idea of, you know, the idea of surrendering and
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I can't do it on my own. But also, I
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got to be in there doing it, right? 100%. That's
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very powerful, yeah. And so, you know, that you've already
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kind of shared was moving into my second question, but
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I know you talked about your book, this idea of
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the myth of a big breakthrough, which you were kind
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of pointing to that this one aha moment is determinant.
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And I realized this shift can be, it can be
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precipitous at times, but then it can be gradual. And
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then to really get grounded is always gradual, but basically
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the shift from whatever level of kind of, and I don't,
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I don't mean to say this in a pejorative way.
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It's just a human condition. it's pretty hard to grow
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up in any circumstance and not initially feel like life
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is sort of something that's happening to me. Sometimes it
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seems like it's happening to me in a good way,
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and sometimes it seems like it's happening to me in
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a very bad way, but it's happening to me, right?
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And it's either for or against me, as opposed to
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really embracing the idea that we can have a lot
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greater sense of agency in how our life is unfolding.
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And normally when we find ourselves really struggling in life,
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we very often have developed a lot of kind of
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victim mindsets where we have a lot of circumstances and
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people and situations to blame for where we are. And
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at some point for me, what can really shift how
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we approach the work is when we do begin to
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embrace some level of, well, at least I have some
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part in this. I can't change everybody in the world
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out there and I can't change my past, but there
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is some part of this I could work on that's
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available to me. And to me, you know, and that may,
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we may slip and slide around that for a long,
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but still that's a big shift and where we begin
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to embrace that level of agency, accountability, responsibility, and focus
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on what I can do to change, not what everybody
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else needs to do so that I can be different
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or have a different experience. So I'm wondering if, if
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you see that, I realize it's not one, a one
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and done big moment, but it is a major shift.
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And again, that shift may be grounded over time, But
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I wonder if you could speak to that shift a
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little bit for yourself.
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Yeah, it's been really interesting. When I got sober, this
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is a long time ago. This is 1994 in Columbus, Ohio.
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So it was kind of a hardcore AA 12-step thing.
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And it was very much like, you are not the
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way you are because of your parents. You are not
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the way you are because of X, Y, and Z.
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You are responsible for yourself. It was very... We would,
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by today's standards, we would think it was very harsh.
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And it was actually really good for me. It was
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really good for me to take that level of responsibility. Now, ultimately,
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that became a limited position because I did have to
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open back up and go, well, wait a second, right?
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I am a result of causes and conditions, and I
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need to understand the role that those causes and conditions
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have played. I need to understand what happened to me
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as a child. I need to understand what's going on
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genetically or chemically or all these different things. But I
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never really lost, because it was just distilled in me
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so much, that responsibility element. And the way I often
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think about it is like, it's not my fault that
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I'm the way I am, but I am completely responsible
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for it. Like, No one else can change me. No
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one else can fix me. No one else can solve
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my problems. I've got to work within whatever the constraints
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of my life are, whatever is around me. One of
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my biggest beliefs is there's always a positive direction I
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can go. I don't want to pretend everybody has the
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same degree of choice or freedom or all of that
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because life is complicated. But there's always a place within that.
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that I think we can take that responsibility position and say, okay,
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I'm the only one that can make this better. You know,
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I'm going to have to make that decision. And, and
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I do think that that is a fundamental aspect of
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what's important. I think sometimes people get lost in one
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extreme or the other. We get it lost in the
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extreme of like, it's all me. I'm responsible. I make
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everything happen. It, all it's me, or I'm just a
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victim of circumstances in the world around me. And the
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reality is we co-create reality, right, with what's around us.
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It's a co-creation. But the part of it that we
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can control is obviously our side of that creation.
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Beautifully said. And that's very much at the heart of
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our model when we talk about moving into that recognition
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of our co-creative relationship with life, right? And we can't
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control the whole thing. We don't create the whole thing.
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but we do have a co-creative relationship with it. And
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it's not always linear. It's not always immediately visible. You know,
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it's not, I think there was a rabbi, Rabbi Kushner
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wrote a book years ago when bad things happen to
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good people, right? So it's not always obvious, but we
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all know there's some relationship to who I'm being and
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what I'm putting out there and what's coming back, at
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least in the long run, right? And so, but you
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brought up so many important things. So Obviously, there's all
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kinds of causes and conditions contributing to where we are
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at any given moment in time, right? And then there's
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our part in that, right? And all the causes and conditions,
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I think it is important to be aware of that
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and have understanding around that and not take some hardcore
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approach of being in denial of that. That has nothing
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to do with it. No, those are all contributing factors.
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But what is the part that I can do something about?
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It's mostly this part. Now I can heal some relationships.
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I can get into therapy. I can go back and
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write letters to my parents and do that. There may
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be some things and may that, that may involve other
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people changing, but that's kind of a side benefit, right?
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If it actually changes anybody else's behavior, but what I
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can really focus on is myself. But one of the
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key things is how do we do that grounded in self-compassion, right?
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So radical responsibility, uh, people get pretty quickly. It's not
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about blaming others. but it's not one iota about blaming ourselves.
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It's certainly not about blaming victims. It's simply understanding the
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relationship between A, B, and C, right? And if I'm
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not happy about it, if I can learn about how
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I got there and whatever my contribution was to it,
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as well as all the other circumstances, I can make
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new choices in the future and get different results, right?
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But I have to really cultivate, I wonder about your
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experience cultivating self-compassion and a sense of my own innate
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goodness and wholeness because otherwise we have so much shame
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and blame in our culture and there's a lot of
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wonderful things in our culture too but there's so much
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shame and blame and kind of punishment reward mentality and
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so forth and a lot of ideas that human beings
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absent some course of threat are kind of risky we
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don't have that innate goodness fact we might have some
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seed of evil down there right so um I think
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because of all that, when we try to embrace radical
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levels of ownership and sometimes responsibility, ownership, you know, for
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what's happening and what I can create, that can trigger
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us into self-blaming. Yes. If we haven't really in self-shaming,
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if we haven't done some work to develop that self-compassion,
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to develop a friendlier, more positive. And for me, the
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more self-compassion we have, And the more connection we have
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with confidence and own and goodness, then we can embrace
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greater and greater levels of ownership for our own destiny.
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And so I'm curious if that resonates with you, that
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relationship between self-compassion, how we view ourselves and our capacity
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to embrace ownership.
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Yeah, I mean, I've got a whole chapter in the
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book that is essentially about self-compassion. And it's in there
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for two reasons, really, right? It's probably the biggest, besides
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stopping destroying myself with drugs, learning to be nicer to
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myself is probably the biggest upgrade I've ever given myself, right?
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I spend all my time in here with a voice.
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The less of a jerk that voice is, the better
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my life is. But I include it in a book
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about change because it's so important to change. Because change
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is all about learning. Change is all about like, okay,
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I tried to do this and that didn't work. And
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I wonder why it didn't work or what I could
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do differently or what's going on. And that harsh inner
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voice of shame, you don't learn anything. When your conclusion
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is the reason that didn't work is because I'm a
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piece of you know what, you don't learn anything.
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Exactly. Right?
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You just go, well, the reason is because I suck. Well, okay,
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we can't do much with that. If we can turn
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that down, though, then we can ask those learning questions.
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And so, yeah, I think it's a hugely important point.
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And I think of self-compassion as sort of a midpoint
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between self-acceptance and self-improvement, right? It's both, right? Self-compassion is
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not just, oh, anything I do is fine because I'm wonderful, right?
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It still allows me to look at my behavior and go,
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that's not a reflection of who I want to be.
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That's not the person I can do better. I can change.
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But there's also a kindness to ourselves, which is very
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difficult to develop is my experience. And people, you know,
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lots of people, I'm sure you've seen this. You've been
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working with people longer than I have. Self-compassion is a
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hard one for people to get because that voice, that
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inner critic voice is so ingrained. And for me, it's
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just a matter of continuing to sort of see it
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and hear it and go, hang on, like, that's not,
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that's not the way we want to do this. And,
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you know, I think it was probably, I don't know
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who originally said it. I borrowed it and use it,
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but I didn't come up with it, which is the
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simplest instruction is just treat yourself like you would a
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good friend or a child, you know, and that really
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works for me.
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Right.
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But it takes an imagination. I have to actually think, like,
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what would I say to a friend? Which is good
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because then I can find my words. Because other people's
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self-compassion words might, like, some people are like, put a
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hand on your heart and say, sweetheart, it's okay.
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Right?
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20 years ago, that would have made me cringe.
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Right?
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But what were the words that I would use? What
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did I say to somebody I was sponsoring that I
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cared about who was having a hard time? What did
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I say? Oh, let me say, let me try and
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now say that to myself and keep repeating it despite
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the fact that that voice kind of keeps going.
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Absolutely. And, you know, we speak to ourselves in ways
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we would never speak to a friend. We wouldn't even
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speak to a stranger in ways that we speak to ourselves.
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Not unless you wanted to.
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Get beat up. Exactly, right? You know, so it really,
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and it's it is it's a journey uh obviously to
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shift that because a lot of that stuff's been deeply
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ingrained uh through our culture and you know i think
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that's one of the places where that distinction you made
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between you know what i can be responsible for and
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what are causes and conditions because that inner critic voice
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that's not us we didn't create that that that we
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and we inherited that or We got it from the culture.
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We got it from our parents. And it's not just
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our parents' fault. It's in the culture, right? So that
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got downloaded. We weren't born with that, right? And so
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that developed. So that's one thing we can go, okay,
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that's not really me, but it's there. And so what's
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my approach to change it? Well, I can say, well,
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I'm just going to do surgery and torch it and
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get rid of it. That doesn't really work. We actually
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have to make friends with it, develop a sense of
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humor around it, and really give it given an environment
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where it'll gradually relax and reduce and become less safe.
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If we fight with it, trying to fight with these
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things head on doesn't work very well in my experience.
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Yeah. I think that having a sense of humor about
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it is so good. My inner critic voice, and I
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know where I got it. I started, I start the
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chapter in self-compassion in the book about me golfing with
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my dad and my dad saying things like, Oh, hit it, Alice, or,
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you know, you know, hit it, pussy. And he was
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saying that to himself. Not that he wasn't hard on me,
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but he was every bit that hard on himself. So
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I came by it. We all do naturally. That voice
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is gone, but I still have an inner voice that
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sticks around. And it's my inner Eeyore, right? It's the, oh,
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it's kind of a bad day. That voice. And now
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I kind of laugh at it. I take what it says.
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And I put it in that voice and I laugh
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a little bit. I'm like, okay, this is, you know,
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I know who this is. I see you, Eeyore, you know,
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like it's fine. Like, you know, just a sense of
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humor about all of this is so incredibly valuable. It's
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one of the things that 12-step programs do so well
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is that all of a sudden this shame, this thing
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of yours that has been the worst possible thing, you
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start showing up and people are just laughing about it.
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they are just cracking up about stuff that you're like,
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I never would have shared that with anyone. And that
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was a bit, that was a really useful instruction. You know,
400
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it was a really useful, like a lot of shame,
401
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really laughter. I do think it melts shame away more
402
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than most anything else.
403
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Yeah. There's a model of mindful self-compassion developed by my colleagues, Kristen, uh,
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Kristen Knapp and Christopher Germer. And one of the primary
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aspects of something they call shared humanity, which you, and
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I think the 12 step groups do a great job.
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You see, it's not just me. It's not just me going,
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dealing with all this craziness. We're all dealing with, right.
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And we can all share it.
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It's very powerful. So, um, You know, I think another
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way to articulate this idea of radical responsibility is living
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a choice. And that's been said, many different people have
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used that over the idea of living a choice. And
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I think some people, and I find in my work,
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sometimes people initially resist this idea. You mean, you know, conceptually, okay, yeah, yeah, but, oh.
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I'm going to actually be responsible for my choices day
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in and day out. That seems pretty daunting, right? But
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that's what our power is. And if we can chunk
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that down and start realizing that we're making choices all
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the time and we're not going to get them all right.
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But if we start making more choices that lead us
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in a good direction and fewer choices that lead us
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in a not so great direction, things will change, right?
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And so I think that's a big part of your
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work is those little choices, those day-to-day, moment-to-moment choices that
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these choices that we can be making that will gradually
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shift us, our lives in a good direction. And it
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has a momentum, right? You know, you can be in
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a non-virtuous cycle where one thing is leading to another
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in a good way. But if you start to develop
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some momentum with making more positive choices or life-affirming choices
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or conscious choices, it starts to develop its own momentum, right?
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So I wonder if you could talk a little bit,
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because I know that's a big part of your work,
435
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focusing on the little choices we're continually making.
436
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Yeah, there's another 12-step phrase that comes to mind that
437
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was incredibly helpful, which was just do the next right thing. Now,
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I don't love that. There's things about that phrase I
439
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don't love, like the right thing as if there's only one.
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Right.
441
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To me, it's more like do the next good thing.
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The best thing you can think of to do at
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this time.
444
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Right.
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Just do the best you can. Because, yeah, it does
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get overwhelming to think about like, oh, I'm going to
447
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have to make 785,000 more positive choices, which is why
448
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12-step programs, they just keep bringing you back to like
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the next one, the next one, the next one. But
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to your point, that is what happens, is that these
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things accumulate over time. That is how a little becomes
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a lot, is that you do positive things again and
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again and again and again. And overall, those accumulate. But
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it's not, as you mentioned, it's not about perfection because
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we don't make all the right choices ever, right? That's
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just not the way it goes, right? For me, if
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it's something like, let's take a positive habit I'm trying
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to do in my life. I try and move for
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at least 30 minutes a day in some way. And
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I do that about 85% of the time. So it
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means 15% of the time I don't do it. But
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my belief is if I'm doing it 80, 85% of
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the time, I'm getting the.
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Benefit.
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I don't need to worry about those other times that
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I don't. The problem is we get so hung up
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on those times we don't. We focus on the 15%.
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We go, see, I'm failing, I'm failing, I'm failing, instead
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of going, but you're doing it 85% of the time.
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That's good enough. And so that's the way I think
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about these choices is the majority of our choices, we
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want to become better choices, but they're not always the
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best choices. But when we break it down to just
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the next one, we don't get overwhelmed.
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Absolutely. So important. And, you know, I also, if we
476
00:26:43.549 --> 00:26:47.150
focus on that 15% and beating ourselves up, we're less
477
00:26:47.250 --> 00:26:49.450
likely to keep going with the 85%. That's going to
478
00:26:49.529 --> 00:26:51.190
undermine that, right?
479
00:26:52.029 --> 00:26:55.009
A hundred percent. There's, I tell a story in the
480
00:26:55.069 --> 00:26:58.190
book and it's an interesting story because with addiction and
481
00:26:59.839 --> 00:27:04.200
The model that has been well prescribed over years, the
482
00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:07.349
12-step model, is one of abstinence. It is one of
483
00:27:07.349 --> 00:27:11.869
100% no. And there are good reasons for that, right?
484
00:27:12.190 --> 00:27:14.109
I mean, the way I often think of it is
485
00:27:14.130 --> 00:27:18.430
like alcohol and drugs are like a magnet and I'm metal.
486
00:27:18.750 --> 00:27:21.130
And I just want to be as far away as
487
00:27:21.259 --> 00:27:24.640
I can. And that's what abstinence gives me. It's a
488
00:27:24.779 --> 00:27:31.130
worthwhile goal. It's just a lousy grading system because how
489
00:27:31.269 --> 00:27:34.069
often anything else in life do we do perfectly? We
490
00:27:34.109 --> 00:27:36.750
just don't. And so I had this client that I
491
00:27:36.789 --> 00:27:40.329
worked with for years and she was trying to deal
492
00:27:40.349 --> 00:27:43.150
with her drinking problem and she was not able to
493
00:27:43.279 --> 00:27:49.460
get long-term lasting sobriety. She would get six months in
494
00:27:49.500 --> 00:27:51.160
and then drink for a day or two, or she
495
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:53.460
would get nine months in and drink for a day
496
00:27:53.539 --> 00:27:53.900
or two.
497
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:54.559
Right.
498
00:27:54.619 --> 00:27:57.690
So it just, And eventually, but what I kept trying
499
00:27:57.730 --> 00:28:00.299
to do with her because the messaging she was getting
500
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:05.259
everywhere else was you're back to zero, you failed. And
501
00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:07.799
she came up, so I kept working with her on like,
502
00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:10.849
we've got to see that you are making real progress.
503
00:28:11.490 --> 00:28:13.390
And she came up with this idea and she started
504
00:28:13.430 --> 00:28:16.589
putting a marble in a jar every day that she
505
00:28:16.630 --> 00:28:20.289
was sober. If she drank, she didn't take a marble out,
506
00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:22.799
but she just didn't get to put one in. And
507
00:28:22.839 --> 00:28:24.819
what she was able to see over time was this
508
00:28:25.059 --> 00:28:31.619
massive accumulation of success, of positivity that allowed her then
509
00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:35.329
actually to get the strength to go on to get
510
00:28:35.430 --> 00:28:39.670
to full abstinence. But her shame was so great that
511
00:28:39.750 --> 00:28:43.970
grading herself at 100% was terrible for her because every
512
00:28:44.009 --> 00:28:46.569
time she messed up, shame took over. And we had
513
00:28:46.589 --> 00:28:49.309
to find a way to lower that. And go, you're
514
00:28:49.369 --> 00:28:53.710
doing so much better. You're making so much progress. And
515
00:28:53.730 --> 00:28:56.529
that's the way we want to talk to ourselves, right?
516
00:28:56.609 --> 00:28:58.390
That's the way we want to talk to yourself. You're
517
00:28:58.410 --> 00:29:01.950
doing great, Eric. You didn't move the last couple of days,
518
00:29:01.990 --> 00:29:03.890
but you've been doing really good. And let's get out
519
00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:07.660
there today, right? We coach ourselves through this stuff.
520
00:29:09.210 --> 00:29:11.380
Yeah, one of the models that I use a lot
521
00:29:11.430 --> 00:29:14.779
in our radical responsibility work is Stephen Carpenter's drama triangle,
522
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:17.960
which we see out in the world everywhere, right? It's
523
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:22.140
the hero, the villain, and the victim, the classic melodrama triangulation.
524
00:29:22.819 --> 00:29:27.200
But for him, these are mindsets we all move through, personas, mindsets, right?
525
00:29:27.220 --> 00:29:29.720
Where we feel victimized, so we want to get out
526
00:29:29.740 --> 00:29:32.680
of that. So we go try to control, blame, control, persecute,
527
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:36.220
or we develop an identity around being the savior, the rescuer,
528
00:29:36.259 --> 00:29:40.470
which colludes with victims. It creates endless conflict. We can
529
00:29:40.490 --> 00:29:42.900
see it in our families and our companies and our
530
00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:45.640
communities and on the world stages, endless war and conflict
531
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.160
and everything. But what sometimes people forget is we have
532
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:51.420
one of those in between our ears. We're beating ourselves up,
533
00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:54.500
we're rescuing ourselves, we're playing the victim vis-a-vis ourselves, right?
534
00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:57.710
So we... promote a model of getting out of that
535
00:29:57.789 --> 00:30:01.009
into what we call the empowerment triangle, right? Which is
536
00:30:01.069 --> 00:30:04.660
shifting the victim mindset to the co-creative that you talked about. Yeah.
537
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:08.140
Shifting that to the co-creative mindset. I have a colleague
538
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:09.859
that has a similar mind. He talks about the creator.
539
00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:12.119
It's fine. I understand what he means, but some people
540
00:30:12.220 --> 00:30:15.509
prefer to preserve that word for the God of their understanding.
541
00:30:15.549 --> 00:30:18.210
But also I think we can't, we can't determine reality,
542
00:30:18.230 --> 00:30:20.950
but we do have a co-creative relationship, but we also
543
00:30:20.990 --> 00:30:23.609
learn to shift from being a persecutor to being a
544
00:30:23.750 --> 00:30:26.750
coach and Like how can we, I'm sorry, from being
545
00:30:26.789 --> 00:30:29.529
a persecutor to a challenger, like, can I learn to
546
00:30:29.650 --> 00:30:33.490
challenge myself and challenge others without making myself wrong or
547
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:36.559
making them wrong? That's a very high level skill. Yeah.
548
00:30:36.819 --> 00:30:38.700
And if you, if you get good at that, you
549
00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:40.500
can do whatever you want in the world of business
550
00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:43.480
or professional work, because you're able to coach people in
551
00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:45.920
a way that they can receive it. You can. And so,
552
00:30:46.099 --> 00:30:48.799
and then we move from being a rescuer instead of
553
00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:52.279
rescuing ourselves or rescuing others. How do we coach? like
554
00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.420
eyeball to eyeball coach, right? So learning to do that
555
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.819
with ourselves, how can we talk to ourselves the way
556
00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:02.759
a good coach would talk to us, right? How can
557
00:31:02.779 --> 00:31:06.190
we coach ourselves? How can we be willing to challenge ourselves,
558
00:31:06.250 --> 00:31:08.589
or not much is going to happen, but challenge ourselves
559
00:31:08.630 --> 00:31:12.430
without making ourselves wrong, and then coach ourselves skillfully, learn
560
00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:16.190
good coaching skills to coach ourselves skillfully, right?
561
00:31:16.829 --> 00:31:19.329
Yeah. I think the people who know how to make
562
00:31:19.450 --> 00:31:22.339
change or the people that appear to have discipline or
563
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:28.160
appear to have self-control, they know how to coach themselves internally.
564
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:32.740
That's what it is. Everybody faces moments where they're like,
565
00:31:32.829 --> 00:31:36.910
I don't want to do it, right? With everything. It's
566
00:31:36.970 --> 00:31:39.750
just that some people have figured out what you say
567
00:31:39.789 --> 00:31:43.789
to yourself in order to help you get through that.
568
00:31:44.690 --> 00:31:47.880
And And so that is one of the most important skills.
569
00:31:47.960 --> 00:31:50.779
It's something I talk about in the book. I talk
570
00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:55.539
about with change that there's this, I love that empowerment
571
00:31:55.839 --> 00:32:01.059
model also and moving away from that drama triangle. As
572
00:32:01.099 --> 00:32:02.960
you were talking earlier, I was thinking to myself, you
573
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:06.589
know what? It's like blame of any sort, ourselves or others.
574
00:32:06.619 --> 00:32:10.829
It just isn't a very useful tool. And I love
575
00:32:10.869 --> 00:32:14.960
that challenger idea also. But with change, I was thinking
576
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:18.490
about this. I think about like there's two core things
577
00:32:18.529 --> 00:32:20.490
we have to figure out. And the first is just
578
00:32:21.009 --> 00:32:24.250
it's all structural. It's like, what am I doing? When
579
00:32:24.289 --> 00:32:26.890
am I doing it? Am I clear? Is it do
580
00:32:26.930 --> 00:32:29.789
I have the skills to do it? It's just it's
581
00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:32.960
all in the planning sort of world. And that is
582
00:32:33.099 --> 00:32:36.259
so important because so much of what we might call
583
00:32:36.339 --> 00:32:39.480
procrastination or avoidance is lack of clarity.
584
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:42.960
Yeah, absolutely.
585
00:32:43.299 --> 00:32:46.029
But once we do that, that pushes us to a
586
00:32:46.089 --> 00:32:49.269
choice point. It pushes us to a moment where it's like, okay,
587
00:32:49.690 --> 00:32:52.710
it's time. I either do or don't do the thing, right?
588
00:32:53.130 --> 00:32:55.730
I go the direction I want right now or the
589
00:32:55.769 --> 00:32:58.839
direction I don't. I'm right at that choice point and
590
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:02.420
learning to pay attention to what's happening to us right
591
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:08.369
in that moment. What am I saying to myself? That
592
00:33:08.569 --> 00:33:11.630
is so important. Like I wrote, I mean, I wrote
593
00:33:11.670 --> 00:33:14.710
this book and you've been writing books for a long time.
594
00:33:15.630 --> 00:33:17.930
You've written some great books. I was thinking as I
595
00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:20.099
was preparing to talk to you, I was like, Fleet
596
00:33:20.119 --> 00:33:24.720
Mall is a name I have heard for so long. Like,
597
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:26.619
you know, I feel like I probably heard your name
598
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.420
listening to like a Jack Kornfield tape back in like
599
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:33.049
the late 80s or something. You know, or the early 90s.
600
00:33:33.089 --> 00:33:35.130
Before that, you saw it on a wanted poster.
601
00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:40.569
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But so you've written books and you
602
00:33:40.609 --> 00:33:42.950
know the process. When I got the book contract, I
603
00:33:42.970 --> 00:33:44.970
was like, this is amazing. Somebody's going to pay me
604
00:33:45.009 --> 00:33:47.779
to write a book. And I was like, uh-oh. Now
605
00:33:47.799 --> 00:33:49.279
I got to write a book. And I had so
606
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:50.319
much self-doubt.
607
00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:51.140
Mm-hmm.
608
00:33:52.329 --> 00:33:54.089
And the time would come to write. I'd be like,
609
00:33:54.109 --> 00:33:56.430
all right, I know when I'm writing. I'm writing Monday morning,
610
00:33:56.430 --> 00:33:59.150
9 a.m. I know where I'm writing. I know what
611
00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:01.950
I'm working on. I'm working on chapter two, section one.
612
00:34:02.029 --> 00:34:04.829
I had all that down. The moment would come and
613
00:34:04.849 --> 00:34:08.389
I just would not want to do it. Really not
614
00:34:08.469 --> 00:34:10.429
want to do it. I think we all know that
615
00:34:10.510 --> 00:34:13.699
feeling of just like dread when you think about doing something.
616
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:17.619
And when I slowed down and I paid really close attention,
617
00:34:18.019 --> 00:34:21.500
what I realized it was just all self-doubt. My brain
618
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.820
was basically saying, you're not a good writer. You're not
619
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:26.539
going to become a good writer. This is going to suck.
620
00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:29.139
Why bother? In essence, that was what it was. It
621
00:34:29.260 --> 00:34:32.429
wasn't happening loudly or consciously, but that's what was there.
622
00:34:33.269 --> 00:34:35.949
And so I learned, how do I coach myself in
623
00:34:36.010 --> 00:34:40.150
that moment? Not to get rid of self-doubt completely, just
624
00:34:40.230 --> 00:34:43.730
to get writing. And that's what we learned to do.
625
00:34:43.769 --> 00:34:46.099
We learned to pay attention. What is it that's going
626
00:34:46.179 --> 00:34:49.800
on inside me in these moments? What am I feeling
627
00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:52.130
or what am I not willing to feel or whatever
628
00:34:52.190 --> 00:34:55.570
it is? And how do I coach myself or how
629
00:34:55.590 --> 00:34:59.110
do I challenge myself in a way that allows me
630
00:34:59.150 --> 00:35:01.789
to overcome that friction, that resistance?
631
00:35:02.909 --> 00:35:05.110
Yeah, absolutely. And it very much is a moment to
632
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:09.019
moment practice, right? That we're working each moment. And you
633
00:35:09.059 --> 00:35:12.300
know what you mentioned before about blame. One of the
634
00:35:12.340 --> 00:35:14.340
roots of my work goes all the way back to
635
00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:20.550
Professor Edward Deming, E. Edward Deming. People may have heard
636
00:35:20.570 --> 00:35:23.750
of him. He's often called the father of American manufacturing.
637
00:35:24.769 --> 00:35:27.909
He helped Japan recover from World War II, and the
638
00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:31.110
boom of the Japanese industrial economy was a lot of
639
00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:35.440
his work. And he's the source of things like Six Sigma,
640
00:35:35.539 --> 00:35:38.900
total quality control. He was the efficiency guy. And so
641
00:35:38.940 --> 00:35:40.860
he had a model that he used way back then,
642
00:35:40.880 --> 00:35:42.699
it was a long time ago. He had a line
643
00:35:42.739 --> 00:35:44.860
across the middle of the page, and below it, he
644
00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:48.039
had blame, I think he had blame, we have a
645
00:35:48.059 --> 00:35:51.210
little different, but he had blame, resentment, and shame, I believe, right?
646
00:35:51.590 --> 00:35:55.550
And above he had either responsibility, ownership, something like that.
647
00:35:56.130 --> 00:35:59.630
And he had a completely nonjudgmental view of the whole thing.
648
00:36:00.210 --> 00:36:03.679
His view was like blaming others and then holding on
649
00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:05.980
to resentments and then what he meant by shame was
650
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:10.019
blaming yourself, right? Yeah. But he said, he wasn't saying
651
00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:12.400
you're a bad person for blaming. He was just saying
652
00:36:12.539 --> 00:36:14.639
it's an inefficient use of your energy.
653
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:15.510
Yeah.
654
00:36:15.860 --> 00:36:19.079
It's just an interface. It may be understandable. We all
655
00:36:19.139 --> 00:36:21.139
do it. We don't have to beat ourselves over the
656
00:36:21.179 --> 00:36:25.260
fact that we find ourselves doing it. But it's inefficient.
657
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:28.980
So his whole model was based on the idea of
658
00:36:29.019 --> 00:36:32.219
what's the most efficient use of my energy, and that's
659
00:36:32.260 --> 00:36:34.949
focusing on, okay, what can I choose? Where do I
660
00:36:34.989 --> 00:36:37.250
have some power? Where can I make a difference for
661
00:36:37.289 --> 00:36:39.710
myself and others, right? So it was very interesting that
662
00:36:39.769 --> 00:36:44.550
his model came purely out of a kind of efficiency framework, right?
663
00:36:45.710 --> 00:36:48.750
of that. So I just find that really fascinating. Let's
664
00:36:48.789 --> 00:36:55.739
talk about the name of your podcast and the traditional
665
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:59.519
story of the two wolves, which I believe is primarily
666
00:36:59.579 --> 00:37:02.480
an indigenous Native American story, although maybe it exists in
667
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.239
other cultures. But I think that's where I've heard it
668
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.860
mainly comes from. So could you just share a really
669
00:37:08.139 --> 00:37:10.460
encapsulated version of what that story is all about and
670
00:37:10.500 --> 00:37:11.989
then how you've worked with it?
671
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:16.019
Sure. I mean, actually, the origin of that story is
672
00:37:16.139 --> 00:37:19.920
deeply debated and almost impossible to figure out because I
673
00:37:19.960 --> 00:37:22.159
have tried a lot because I've been doing a podcast
674
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:24.590
about it for 12 years. But the story is essentially
675
00:37:25.750 --> 00:37:28.230
we all have two wolves inside of us that are
676
00:37:28.329 --> 00:37:29.530
always battling each other.
677
00:37:29.590 --> 00:37:29.769
Right.
678
00:37:29.789 --> 00:37:32.289
And one of them we could call a good wolf,
679
00:37:32.309 --> 00:37:35.530
you know, things like kindness, bravery, love. The other we
680
00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:40.130
could call a bad wolf, greed and hatred and fear. And,
681
00:37:40.369 --> 00:37:43.090
you know, the question becomes which of these wolves wins
682
00:37:43.190 --> 00:37:45.269
if they're at battle all the time. And the answer
683
00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:48.530
is the one that you feed. So that's the, that's
684
00:37:48.570 --> 00:37:50.949
the fast version of that. I stripped out a couple
685
00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:53.909
of things. There's a grandfather talking to a grandson about
686
00:37:53.949 --> 00:37:57.349
all that, but that's the essence of it is just that,
687
00:37:58.170 --> 00:38:02.860
that very simple choice, that very simple parable of, of,
688
00:38:02.989 --> 00:38:05.699
you know, which, which of these things wins. And, I
689
00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:09.340
love that parable. I don't know 12 years later if
690
00:38:09.380 --> 00:38:12.469
that's the thing I would use to start my podcast
691
00:38:12.530 --> 00:38:16.869
these years later, because it's a little black and white.
692
00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:23.110
It's a little dualistic, but there are parts of it
693
00:38:23.150 --> 00:38:27.260
that I still think are incredibly valuable. We all get
694
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:30.320
it the second you hear it. And it's that our
695
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:33.559
choices matter and we have choice and they matter. The
696
00:38:33.699 --> 00:38:36.360
other part that I love about it, I think it explains,
697
00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:41.739
it nails a core human dynamic, which is that I say,
698
00:38:41.940 --> 00:38:45.840
you know, we're motivationally complex creatures. We want lots of
699
00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:49.340
different things. You know, two wolves is an oversimplification of
700
00:38:49.389 --> 00:38:53.449
what's going on inside of us. But that pull that
701
00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:55.230
like part of me wants to do this, part of
702
00:38:55.250 --> 00:38:59.920
me wants to do that, that is deeply human. And
703
00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:02.039
I love how in the story, the grandfather says, we
704
00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.619
all have it. And that's really important to me. There's
705
00:39:05.659 --> 00:39:09.239
not something wrong with me that I have these desires
706
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:12.349
to be nice and mean and good and bad and
707
00:39:12.510 --> 00:39:15.610
healthy and unhealthy and all these things. There's nothing wrong
708
00:39:15.670 --> 00:39:18.369
with me that I'm wanting all those things. That is
709
00:39:18.429 --> 00:39:19.590
what it is to be human.
710
00:39:20.829 --> 00:39:23.590
Absolutely. And you were just referencing, you know, we're all
711
00:39:23.630 --> 00:39:25.590
familiar with that language. Part of me would like this,
712
00:39:25.670 --> 00:39:27.510
part of me would like this, part of me sometimes,
713
00:39:28.010 --> 00:39:30.820
you know, that's led to, The best. of therapy that
714
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:34.219
involve parts, whether it's voice dialogue or internal family systems.
715
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:36.360
People resonate a lot with that because we all have
716
00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:39.300
that experience. And I agree with you around the two
717
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:42.070
wolves thing. It is a little bit simplistic, but it's
718
00:39:42.110 --> 00:39:45.449
also very clear, right? It's very helpful. It's that virtuous
719
00:39:45.489 --> 00:39:48.250
and non-virtuous cycle I was talking about before. Which one
720
00:39:48.269 --> 00:39:51.179
of those are we feeding? Which momentum we're creating? Because
721
00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:54.059
for me, the two wolves put them kind of on
722
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:57.119
an equal playing field. I feel underneath both wolves, there's
723
00:39:57.639 --> 00:40:00.739
a grandfather wolf who's ultimately good. Not good versus supposed
724
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:02.739
to bad, but it's sitting there watching the whole thing
725
00:40:02.780 --> 00:40:07.380
play out, but realizes ultimately it's all good in the end.
726
00:40:07.659 --> 00:40:10.039
So that's the idea. In my position, we call that
727
00:40:10.099 --> 00:40:11.219
basic goodness, right?
728
00:40:11.780 --> 00:40:14.469
I love that. That is so good that there's a
729
00:40:14.550 --> 00:40:17.530
third wolf who's kind of just watching it all. Kind
730
00:40:17.570 --> 00:40:20.750
of like, you know, watching... watching, you know, your two
731
00:40:20.789 --> 00:40:23.269
kids wrestle with each other a little bit, like, all right,
732
00:40:23.289 --> 00:40:24.889
I got to make sure they don't hurt each other
733
00:40:24.969 --> 00:40:27.639
too much. But, you know, okay, go do your thing.
734
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:37.179
So let's talk a little bit more about addiction. We
735
00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:39.840
both had addiction in our lives. I had addiction in
736
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:45.320
my family and alcoholism. And we often associate addiction primarily
737
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.699
with substance abuse, alcohol addiction, drug addiction. But of course,
738
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.079
there's all kinds of addiction. And all of us as
739
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:55.539
human beings are somewhere on a spectrum of being involved.
740
00:40:55.599 --> 00:40:58.780
We're all addicted. We're creatures of habit, right? And we
741
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.800
even have the idea of creating positive addictions, right? Replacing one.
742
00:41:03.739 --> 00:41:07.260
And man, could we live completely free of habits? And
743
00:41:07.659 --> 00:41:09.679
I don't know, we probably need to depend on having
744
00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.440
some habits and so forth. And having some positive addictions
745
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:16.440
is probably better than having a lot of negative addictions.
746
00:41:16.500 --> 00:41:18.710
But nonetheless, it's part of the landscape of how our
747
00:41:18.769 --> 00:41:23.309
mind works. And there's a loop in there, right? We're uncomfortable.
748
00:41:23.369 --> 00:41:25.650
We reach for something to make ourselves comfortable. And then
749
00:41:25.690 --> 00:41:28.349
we feel comfortable. We get the reward, right? And if
750
00:41:28.409 --> 00:41:32.389
that thing we're reaching for is alcohol or drugs, that
751
00:41:32.409 --> 00:41:35.179
could often get us in a lot of trouble. It
752
00:41:35.219 --> 00:41:39.980
could also be porn. It could be doom scrolling. It
753
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:43.500
could be too much digital activity. It could be all
754
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:45.829
kinds of things. that are not really going to move
755
00:41:45.889 --> 00:41:48.760
our life forward in a good way. And if we
756
00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:52.920
can learn to, and there's that whole craving cycle that can,
757
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.219
once that thing gets built up, then there's the craving,
758
00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:58.599
which is a neurophysiological reality that we're feeling. If we
759
00:41:58.639 --> 00:42:01.309
can learn to tolerate that, or some people talk about
760
00:42:01.469 --> 00:42:06.110
surfing the urge of that, and then replace one strategy
761
00:42:06.170 --> 00:42:09.789
with a better strategy that's going to relieve whatever discomfort
762
00:42:09.809 --> 00:42:12.300
we're feeling, but lead to a better result, right? So
763
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.639
I wonder if you could talk about how you understand
764
00:42:14.679 --> 00:42:16.780
that whole spectrum, how that's played out in your life
765
00:42:16.820 --> 00:42:19.360
since you got sober and how you see that working
766
00:42:19.539 --> 00:42:22.559
in the people you work with. Just the whole phenomenon. Yeah.
767
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:26.710
The propensity towards addiction and habit that's really part of
768
00:42:26.769 --> 00:42:28.789
our makeup in some way. Yeah.
769
00:42:28.849 --> 00:42:32.110
Well, you did a really nice job of laying it out, right? That,
770
00:42:32.510 --> 00:42:35.130
you know, we don't think of back when I got sober,
771
00:42:35.210 --> 00:42:37.309
you know, there was this idea that like there was
772
00:42:37.369 --> 00:42:40.420
some lie. And over that line, you are an alcoholic
773
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:43.340
or you are an addict. And I don't think we
774
00:42:43.380 --> 00:42:45.639
don't think that the people in the addiction field don't
775
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:47.300
really think that way anymore.
776
00:42:47.420 --> 00:42:48.360
Generally. Right.
777
00:42:48.400 --> 00:42:52.300
We see it as a spectrum, you know, from like
778
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:55.820
being completely powerless over something that has this completely in
779
00:42:55.880 --> 00:42:59.000
our grasp to like, who cares? Like we could take
780
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:01.420
it or leave it. And yeah, with different things, we're
781
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:06.090
all in different places. I think in general, a good
782
00:43:06.230 --> 00:43:10.380
rule is too much of anything becomes problematic. It doesn't
783
00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:14.320
really matter what it is. You take anything too far.
784
00:43:14.980 --> 00:43:20.780
And to me, addiction is always ultimately about control. To me,
785
00:43:20.840 --> 00:43:25.219
it's ultimately about, am I able to decide from a
786
00:43:25.380 --> 00:43:28.949
wise part of myself what I want my relationship to
787
00:43:29.050 --> 00:43:35.030
this thing to be? Whether it's whether it's spending time
788
00:43:35.110 --> 00:43:40.769
on my phone, whether it's exercise, whether it's sugar, whatever
789
00:43:40.829 --> 00:43:44.429
your thing is, am I able from a wise part
790
00:43:44.590 --> 00:43:49.469
of myself to decide this is how I want to engage?
791
00:43:50.170 --> 00:43:53.769
And am I able to engage most of the time
792
00:43:54.369 --> 00:44:02.800
within that, that boundary when I can't, Go ahead. Well,
793
00:44:02.820 --> 00:44:05.480
I was going to say, if I can, then I'm
794
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:08.400
probably pretty low on the addiction spectrum. I wouldn't really
795
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:13.360
worry about it. But when I can't, when I repeatedly
796
00:44:13.449 --> 00:44:16.690
say I will not do X, Y, or Z, and
797
00:44:16.710 --> 00:44:20.869
then I do it, to me, that's problematic. Call it
798
00:44:21.050 --> 00:44:24.590
addiction if you want. Call it substance. Call it some
799
00:44:24.630 --> 00:44:26.699
sort of disorder. I don't know. You can call it
800
00:44:26.739 --> 00:44:31.170
whatever term works for you. But to me, that's where
801
00:44:31.210 --> 00:44:36.949
the problem is. When I'm unable to let the dictates
802
00:44:37.070 --> 00:44:40.909
of my wiser self determine my action.
803
00:44:43.030 --> 00:44:44.639
Yeah, and I think we can use, I mean, I
804
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:47.780
think the idea of positive addictions is across a spectrum
805
00:44:47.860 --> 00:44:51.980
as well. One common one people come up with, like runners.
806
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:54.820
They pick up runners, right? And you get that runner's high,
807
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:57.409
you get the dopamine release. And, you know, you get
808
00:44:57.449 --> 00:44:59.389
to the point where if you don't run, you know,
809
00:45:00.829 --> 00:45:03.170
you feel a craving to go run, right? Yeah. It
810
00:45:03.230 --> 00:45:06.050
is an addictive cycle, but, you know, it motivates you
811
00:45:06.090 --> 00:45:07.969
to run. You keep running and that's good for you, right?
812
00:45:07.989 --> 00:45:10.349
So that's good. On the other end of the spectrum,
813
00:45:10.409 --> 00:45:13.550
something that might seem simpler, but, you know, just acts
814
00:45:13.630 --> 00:45:17.400
of kindness. When we do acts of kindness, we feel
815
00:45:17.460 --> 00:45:21.260
better about ourselves. Yeah. And we get a neurological, neurophysiological
816
00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:24.500
reward for that. So that motivates us to keep doing
817
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:27.679
acts of kindness, to do acts of generosity, right? So
818
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:31.340
any kind of behaviors we do that are going to
819
00:45:31.380 --> 00:45:34.369
help us feel better about life, about others, about ourselves,
820
00:45:34.769 --> 00:45:38.750
there's neurophysiological rewards in there. So it is a kind
821
00:45:38.809 --> 00:45:41.750
of addictive cycle in a way. It's based on rewards,
822
00:45:43.110 --> 00:45:47.639
but it's not creating problems. Now running, people could get
823
00:45:47.679 --> 00:45:49.579
in trouble with a running addiction if they get too
824
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:51.460
extreme with it, right? Like anything else.
825
00:45:52.429 --> 00:45:54.679
Exactly. I mean, and that's why, I mean, I think
826
00:45:55.139 --> 00:45:59.039
there's no getting away from we are reward-based creatures, right?
827
00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:02.280
Our brain is wired. It's going to be like, oh,
828
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.820
that felt good. That had a good result. Do more.
829
00:46:06.489 --> 00:46:07.630
Right. Right.
830
00:46:07.710 --> 00:46:10.449
That is just, we are wired up that way. I
831
00:46:10.449 --> 00:46:13.730
don't think that's ever going away. And so I think
832
00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:20.239
it does become, to me, consequences are tricky, right? Because
833
00:46:20.420 --> 00:46:23.000
I got sober twice. I got sober at 24. As
834
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:25.139
I mentioned, I was a homeless heroin addict looking at
835
00:46:25.179 --> 00:46:27.469
going to jail for 50 years. I stayed sober for
836
00:46:27.570 --> 00:46:29.949
eight years. I never went back to heroin, but I
837
00:46:30.010 --> 00:46:35.369
started drinking again and smoking pot. And I eventually, I've
838
00:46:35.389 --> 00:46:38.849
been sober from that from 18 years. What I can
839
00:46:38.889 --> 00:46:41.590
tell you is that it was a very different experience.
840
00:46:42.409 --> 00:46:46.760
My life on the outside was fine. There was no
841
00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:49.179
bottom in the way there was the first time. I
842
00:46:49.219 --> 00:46:51.570
was making more money than I'd ever made. I had
843
00:46:51.590 --> 00:46:53.610
a good job. I had a nice house. I mean,
844
00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:57.869
everything was fine. Inside, though, what I looked at and
845
00:46:57.889 --> 00:47:00.710
I was like, oh, I will choose getting high over
846
00:47:00.769 --> 00:47:05.110
anything else. I will say I'm not going to do
847
00:47:05.179 --> 00:47:08.159
it and I keep doing it. So if I was
848
00:47:08.219 --> 00:47:12.760
looking at the consequences to be the judge of my addiction,
849
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:18.320
I could have been misled. because the consequences were very different.
850
00:47:18.420 --> 00:47:21.889
First time it's like hepatitis C weighs a hundred pounds dying,
851
00:47:21.949 --> 00:47:24.679
going to jail. The second time is just got promoted
852
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:26.809
driving a BM. You know what I mean? Like everything's
853
00:47:26.829 --> 00:47:31.789
going fine, but the mechanism of me being completely out
854
00:47:31.849 --> 00:47:37.590
of control was the same, right? It was, I couldn't
855
00:47:37.670 --> 00:47:41.110
decide not to do it. You know, I couldn't decide
856
00:47:41.150 --> 00:47:43.710
not to do it. And your point about positive quote
857
00:47:43.750 --> 00:47:48.769
unquote addictions is yeah, it's, It's am I able to
858
00:47:49.590 --> 00:47:52.630
am I able to decide like, OK, you know what?
859
00:47:52.730 --> 00:47:56.199
Helping people is good, but I'm doing it to the
860
00:47:56.280 --> 00:48:00.820
extent that like I'm wrecking my health because I'm not sleeping. OK,
861
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.159
maybe I can turn. Can I turn that down a
862
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:08.039
little bit? And or runners? Yeah. I mean, look, I
863
00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:12.980
I exercise a lot. I'm not obsessively, but it's it's
864
00:48:13.019 --> 00:48:16.369
a mental health thing for me. And if I was
865
00:48:16.469 --> 00:48:19.269
unable to do it, that would be challenging for me
866
00:48:19.389 --> 00:48:24.050
mental health wise. I would have, in essence, almost a
867
00:48:24.130 --> 00:48:26.489
craving to do it. But I don't see that as
868
00:48:26.530 --> 00:48:31.179
a reason not to do it. You know, like, but
869
00:48:31.469 --> 00:48:33.820
if I, you know, if I kept running to the
870
00:48:33.860 --> 00:48:37.199
fact that I had like my third knee replacement, then
871
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:39.900
I might go, well, is this really worth it?
872
00:48:40.599 --> 00:48:40.840
Right.
873
00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:43.059
But it's tricky because everybody's different.
874
00:48:43.630 --> 00:48:45.750
Yeah, well, no, your point is some very important things
875
00:48:46.110 --> 00:48:49.190
that I think are fairly universal. You know, with any
876
00:48:49.210 --> 00:48:54.000
of these things, you know, even understanding that we're creatures
877
00:48:54.079 --> 00:48:56.639
of habit and we're reward-based and so forth, so the
878
00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:59.980
idea of positive addiction and so forth. But if we
879
00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:03.550
realize and develop the discernment and the wisdom that with anything,
880
00:49:03.590 --> 00:49:06.510
there's a law of diminishing returns that kicks in at
881
00:49:06.530 --> 00:49:10.650
some point, right? So, you know, focusing on acts of
882
00:49:10.690 --> 00:49:13.639
kindness and helping people all the time or running or
883
00:49:13.739 --> 00:49:16.219
whatever it is we're doing, there's a point where we're
884
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:19.710
doing so much of it that it's not as beneficial
885
00:49:19.789 --> 00:49:22.699
as it was. And that law of diminishing returns. So
886
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:25.769
can we recognize that so that the wiser part of
887
00:49:25.869 --> 00:49:30.050
ourself can discern that, you know, yeah, I'm not getting
888
00:49:30.130 --> 00:49:32.590
rid of that reward cycle that still motivates me to
889
00:49:32.630 --> 00:49:35.719
be kind and be run. But I recognize when it's
890
00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:38.500
becoming too much, because I recognize that that law of
891
00:49:38.539 --> 00:49:41.820
diminishing return kicks in, right? And so that's developing that wisdom.
892
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:46.739
And for me, what really helps develop that, and part
893
00:49:46.780 --> 00:49:49.210
of that is that third wolf, or part of it
894
00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:52.570
is what I call innate basic goodness, or internal family systems,
895
00:49:52.610 --> 00:49:55.050
they call it self with a capital S. The more
896
00:49:55.070 --> 00:49:59.170
we develop that kind of integrated okayness sense of who
897
00:49:59.210 --> 00:50:00.969
we are as a human being, and we're kind of
898
00:50:01.070 --> 00:50:04.400
okay with that, we have a foundation there, that gives
899
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:08.239
us the ability to still work with the brain the
900
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:11.179
way it works with all these cycles, but also have
901
00:50:11.219 --> 00:50:14.139
the ability to recognize, okay, that's where this is going
902
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:16.500
to get, this isn't going to, you know, I've learned
903
00:50:16.579 --> 00:50:19.420
and I feel good enough about myself that I don't
904
00:50:19.460 --> 00:50:22.739
let that, that doesn't have to be the only reward
905
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:24.179
cycle driving my behavior.
906
00:50:24.840 --> 00:50:26.989
Yeah, yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. I mean,
907
00:50:27.369 --> 00:50:30.230
I often have said that I think the core thing
908
00:50:30.730 --> 00:50:34.619
that is necessary with addiction is, is the ability to
909
00:50:34.940 --> 00:50:38.170
ultimately be able to say, I don't like how this feels,
910
00:50:38.989 --> 00:50:43.630
but I don't have to fix it. I don't like
911
00:50:43.670 --> 00:50:46.469
how this feels, but I don't have to react in
912
00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:52.210
a way that is harmful. And once we can develop that,
913
00:50:52.269 --> 00:50:54.289
and some of that comes, like you're saying, it's this
914
00:50:54.389 --> 00:51:01.219
basic goodness idea of, okay, underneath this, things are okay.
915
00:51:01.300 --> 00:51:03.460
And I think that's what my spiritual practice over the
916
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:08.940
years has ultimately developed is underneath this being all the
917
00:51:08.980 --> 00:51:11.400
stuff that's swirling around in my life day to day,
918
00:51:11.460 --> 00:51:15.090
could be good, could be bad. Underneath that, there's just
919
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:19.409
this deeper like, okay, it's okay. It's okay. And that's
920
00:51:19.469 --> 00:51:25.010
where I can rest when these desires to act in
921
00:51:25.050 --> 00:51:29.929
ways that aren't helpful is often the refuge that I
922
00:51:29.989 --> 00:51:30.489
turn to.
923
00:51:34.130 --> 00:51:38.639
What if transformation isn't just about thinking differently, but feeling differently?
924
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:42.039
Science shows us that true change happens when we align
925
00:51:42.119 --> 00:51:45.619
not just our minds, but also the neural networks in
926
00:51:45.699 --> 00:51:49.539
our hearts and guts. This heart-mind connection is the key
927
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:53.630
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00:51:53.710 --> 00:51:57.750
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930
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00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:11.400
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933
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938
00:52:40.289 --> 00:52:43.289
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939
00:52:43.349 --> 00:52:46.750
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940
00:52:46.789 --> 00:52:49.489
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941
00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:56.519
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942
00:52:56.579 --> 00:52:58.840
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943
00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:02.469
And it changes everything. And I think that's what all
944
00:53:02.489 --> 00:53:05.489
the great spiritual traditions are pointing us towards is to
945
00:53:05.510 --> 00:53:07.989
get in touch with that level of our being, where
946
00:53:08.010 --> 00:53:10.590
despite all the stuff that's going on, all the challenges,
947
00:53:10.650 --> 00:53:14.550
whatever's going on, underneath it all, there's some sense, it's okay.
948
00:53:15.250 --> 00:53:17.409
I'm okay. There's nothing wrong with me. I don't need
949
00:53:17.489 --> 00:53:19.739
fixing anything. Yeah, there's a lot that I can always
950
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:22.179
be improving. There's stuff going on up here, but I
951
00:53:22.219 --> 00:53:25.719
have some sense, and that really changes everything about the
952
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:28.650
game because otherwise, if we're not in touch with that,
953
00:53:29.050 --> 00:53:31.750
then even if we're trying to change and improve and everything,
954
00:53:32.090 --> 00:53:34.369
it's like how that's going moment to moment. We either
955
00:53:34.449 --> 00:53:38.480
crash with, oh, I suck, or, oh, I'm really great, right?
956
00:53:39.400 --> 00:53:42.619
But we can't, there's no abiding sense of okayness that
957
00:53:42.659 --> 00:53:45.360
allows us to do that work with compassion and humor.
958
00:53:45.780 --> 00:53:48.699
I feel so grateful that my spiritual practices have really
959
00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:53.289
concretized that experience in myself. So today, what goes on
960
00:53:53.309 --> 00:53:56.949
in my internal, you know, my brain and my discursive thing,
961
00:53:56.989 --> 00:53:59.309
all the craziness that goes on there, which unfortunately is
962
00:53:59.349 --> 00:54:01.389
a lot less than it ever has been, but I
963
00:54:01.429 --> 00:54:04.269
still find it hilarious. I basically... I have a really
964
00:54:04.289 --> 00:54:07.389
kind of hilarious relationship with myself. In fact, I think
965
00:54:07.449 --> 00:54:09.429
if I could get up on stage and just sort
966
00:54:09.449 --> 00:54:12.480
of reveal that inner dialogue, I'd probably be a great
967
00:54:12.519 --> 00:54:18.239
stand-up comic, you know, because I find my mind very funny. Yeah, yeah.
968
00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.360
But it's only I'm only able to have that sense
969
00:54:20.380 --> 00:54:23.199
of humor about it because on some level, I've developed
970
00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:26.050
a lot of confidence that I'm fundamentally okay. It's not
971
00:54:26.070 --> 00:54:26.650
a problem.
972
00:54:27.650 --> 00:54:31.230
Well, and you're one of those people, honestly, that is... again,
973
00:54:31.349 --> 00:54:34.570
for me was an inspiration of that, which is like,
974
00:54:35.050 --> 00:54:39.480
I'm in prison. You don't get, your circumstances don't get
975
00:54:39.639 --> 00:54:42.599
much worse. I mean, I'm not saying they can't get
976
00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:46.800
any worse. You never want to challenge the world.
977
00:54:46.860 --> 00:54:47.940
Never say that at all.
978
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:48.840
It can't get any worse.
979
00:54:48.940 --> 00:54:49.599
Yes, it can.
980
00:54:50.179 --> 00:54:54.179
But that's a pretty bad situation, right? And yet you
981
00:54:54.340 --> 00:55:03.820
found some degree of equanimity, peace, and the ability to like, okay,
982
00:55:04.000 --> 00:55:07.519
I'm going to react differently in here. And that is
983
00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:10.449
the sort of thing that those of us are like, well, gosh,
984
00:55:10.510 --> 00:55:13.010
I mean, things aren't going well. I lost my job,
985
00:55:13.829 --> 00:55:15.929
you know, but we look at people like, I mean,
986
00:55:16.010 --> 00:55:20.690
on an extreme case, Viktor Frankl or, you know, Nelson Mandela,
987
00:55:20.730 --> 00:55:24.010
but you too in prison is like, oh, even in
988
00:55:24.050 --> 00:55:27.980
these extreme circumstances, these people have shown that there's a
989
00:55:28.099 --> 00:55:34.150
way There's a way to be, I mean, not like
990
00:55:34.210 --> 00:55:39.269
it's great, but to be okay in there, to keep
991
00:55:39.469 --> 00:55:43.000
some degree of who we are as people. And again,
992
00:55:43.019 --> 00:55:45.780
I just find that I've always found that really inspiring.
993
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:50.159
It is the thing that I think is the ultimate
994
00:55:50.300 --> 00:55:54.500
fruit for me that I've always looked for. I think
995
00:55:54.519 --> 00:55:56.920
from a young man, I was like, life can really
996
00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:01.630
suck sometimes. My God. You know, how do I what
997
00:56:01.670 --> 00:56:04.869
can I do to not be completely at the mercy
998
00:56:04.929 --> 00:56:05.349
of that?
999
00:56:06.929 --> 00:56:10.659
Absolutely. I'd like to explore a little bit the power
1000
00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:13.980
of identity. I think for me and, you know, been
1001
00:56:14.019 --> 00:56:16.139
working with people for a long time and all kinds
1002
00:56:16.219 --> 00:56:21.199
of formats and so forth. And to me, one of
1003
00:56:21.219 --> 00:56:26.019
the biggest barriers to change is the identity that people
1004
00:56:26.099 --> 00:56:29.989
concretize around, you know, being broken or being this way
1005
00:56:30.010 --> 00:56:31.829
or that way. I don't know how many times, well,
1006
00:56:31.869 --> 00:56:34.469
that's just the way I am. I mean, I, I,
1007
00:56:35.309 --> 00:56:37.050
I don't know how I could be any different and,
1008
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:39.760
and change can be threatening because I may not be
1009
00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.739
thrilled with how I am. I may complain about it,
1010
00:56:42.739 --> 00:56:45.719
feel victimized by it, be suffering, but at least it's known.
1011
00:56:46.340 --> 00:56:49.210
Like if that's not true for me, if my whole story,
1012
00:56:49.289 --> 00:56:52.480
my whole life narrative about all that stuff, If that's
1013
00:56:53.000 --> 00:56:54.860
not who I am, then who I am, that can
1014
00:56:54.880 --> 00:56:58.880
be kind of scary, right? So that shift in identity. So, uh,
1015
00:56:59.099 --> 00:57:01.780
and for me around addiction, coming back to addiction, you know,
1016
00:57:01.820 --> 00:57:04.480
when I was, I was trying to, I smoked, I
1017
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:07.559
started smoking in high school, maybe, you know, somewhere in
1018
00:57:07.579 --> 00:57:10.989
high school and off and on throughout my early adult life. And,
1019
00:57:11.300 --> 00:57:12.949
you know, at some point I realized it wasn't so
1020
00:57:12.969 --> 00:57:15.110
great for me and I was trying to quit, but
1021
00:57:15.190 --> 00:57:17.510
I was somebody, my mindset was, I love smoking, but
1022
00:57:17.530 --> 00:57:20.380
I want to quit because I know it's bad for me. Right. but, oh,
1023
00:57:20.440 --> 00:57:23.079
I love that cigarette after a meal, you know, whatever.
1024
00:57:23.579 --> 00:57:26.929
And so, um, so, you know, I wasn't being very,
1025
00:57:27.030 --> 00:57:28.469
I quit for a couple of years and I'd be
1026
00:57:28.510 --> 00:57:29.829
back at it. I quit for a couple of years
1027
00:57:29.849 --> 00:57:31.630
for me to be back at it. I find it
1028
00:57:31.690 --> 00:57:34.969
was actually, uh, I had, before I went to prison,
1029
00:57:35.050 --> 00:57:37.010
I had not been smoking for a couple of years.
1030
00:57:37.650 --> 00:57:40.050
And when I turned myself in, I decided to turn
1031
00:57:40.110 --> 00:57:42.619
myself in. I mean, they were, it was either they
1032
00:57:42.639 --> 00:57:45.440
were going to hunt me down or I turned myself in. Um,
1033
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:50.090
and so I turned myself in and, uh, uh, Uh,
1034
00:57:50.309 --> 00:57:52.969
I have my lawyer, you know, and on the way
1035
00:57:53.130 --> 00:57:54.849
I bought a pack of cigarettes, I'm going to need,
1036
00:57:55.030 --> 00:57:57.510
I'm going to need something. I got it. I'm turning
1037
00:57:57.530 --> 00:57:59.570
myself in to go to prison for a long time.
1038
00:58:00.090 --> 00:58:02.210
I need a pack of cigarettes, you know, but then
1039
00:58:02.329 --> 00:58:04.530
once I got into prison, I thought, okay, I'm going
1040
00:58:04.550 --> 00:58:06.389
to be here a long time. Originally I thought it
1041
00:58:06.409 --> 00:58:08.090
was going to be 30 years. I don't want to
1042
00:58:08.130 --> 00:58:10.630
die of lung cancer in here. I want to survive.
1043
00:58:11.190 --> 00:58:12.530
I want to have a life while I'm here. And
1044
00:58:12.570 --> 00:58:14.570
if I'm lucky enough, or if I can create the
1045
00:58:14.590 --> 00:58:16.550
possibility of getting out someday, I want to create a
1046
00:58:16.570 --> 00:58:18.090
life for myself. I don't want to die of lung
1047
00:58:18.139 --> 00:58:20.590
cancer in here. So I became motivated to quit. But
1048
00:58:20.630 --> 00:58:24.590
what really allowed me to quit was somehow I shifted
1049
00:58:24.750 --> 00:58:28.409
into seeing myself as a non-smoker and really seeing that
1050
00:58:28.469 --> 00:58:31.130
smoking is, you know, it's kind of a little bit
1051
00:58:31.150 --> 00:58:35.059
of a nasty habit. It smells, you have dirty ashtrays around.
1052
00:58:35.179 --> 00:58:37.659
It's kind of like, you know, what I used to
1053
00:58:38.099 --> 00:58:41.940
revere as kind of a cool thing. Now I found
1054
00:58:42.019 --> 00:58:47.239
it kind of distasteful and I became identified as a non-smoker.
1055
00:58:47.900 --> 00:58:51.719
And then it was no problem. So the power of
1056
00:58:52.219 --> 00:58:55.059
identity can keep, because we all, you know, we're all
1057
00:58:55.119 --> 00:58:58.300
born in this incredibly fragile state, you know, still in
1058
00:58:58.360 --> 00:59:01.929
a symbiotic relationship with our mother or surrogate parent. And
1059
00:59:01.949 --> 00:59:04.090
then at some point, six months or so, we have
1060
00:59:04.130 --> 00:59:07.070
to start individuating and we have to develop some kind
1061
00:59:07.090 --> 00:59:09.530
of identity to navigate the world. And we'll build that
1062
00:59:09.610 --> 00:59:12.320
identity out of whatever's available to us. And depending on
1063
00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:15.280
what's available to us, that identity can be more functional
1064
00:59:15.320 --> 00:59:17.530
or less functional in our life. But we kind of,
1065
00:59:17.670 --> 00:59:20.130
you know, we're not, the life we know from the
1066
00:59:20.170 --> 00:59:25.210
great spiritual traditions is pretty groundless, impermanent, fluid. But, you know,
1067
00:59:25.250 --> 00:59:28.010
at six months old, we're not set up to be
1068
00:59:28.030 --> 00:59:30.159
able to deal with that. And as adults, it's not
1069
00:59:30.320 --> 00:59:33.519
easy to deal with the groundlessness of reality as it is.
1070
00:59:33.960 --> 00:59:36.599
So we're pretty, we cling to having some kind of
1071
00:59:36.679 --> 00:59:39.719
identity pretty strongly, right? Yeah. This is a whole world
1072
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:42.420
of identity politics. I won't get into that. But identity
1073
00:59:42.460 --> 00:59:44.980
is a big deal for human beings, right? And so
1074
00:59:45.179 --> 00:59:49.159
identity can keep us really stuck. Yeah. And a shift
1075
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:53.449
in identity can really support change. Yeah. I wonder if
1076
00:59:53.469 --> 00:59:55.610
you could talk about how you've experienced that.
1077
00:59:56.420 --> 01:00:01.199
Yeah, I've thought a lot about identity and because there are,
1078
01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:06.409
there was a time that me identifying as an addict
1079
01:00:06.489 --> 01:00:11.909
and an alcoholic in recovery. Well, first I identified as
1080
01:00:11.969 --> 01:00:16.320
an addict in and, you know, like junkie cool kind
1081
01:00:16.380 --> 01:00:20.699
of stuff, right? Like, you know, rock and roll, baby. Right.
1082
01:00:21.670 --> 01:00:25.489
And then I identified as a recovering addict. And that
1083
01:00:25.530 --> 01:00:29.829
was a valuable identity shift. To see myself as a
1084
01:00:29.929 --> 01:00:34.369
person in recovery, as a recovering alcoholic was a really
1085
01:00:34.690 --> 01:00:40.469
useful identity for me for a while. And then it
1086
01:00:41.489 --> 01:00:46.050
ceased to become as useful of an identity in the
1087
01:00:46.139 --> 01:00:49.760
fact that there was in the way that at least
1088
01:00:49.820 --> 01:00:53.059
in 12 step programs, what people talked about, what that
1089
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:57.719
meant about who I was. I'm impulsive. I have an
1090
01:00:57.780 --> 01:01:02.199
addictive personality. I, all these things. And I looked at my,
1091
01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:04.190
I had to finally look at myself one day and
1092
01:01:04.210 --> 01:01:07.050
I was like, I don't think those things are true anymore.
1093
01:01:07.070 --> 01:01:12.530
I don't think that's That's true. So I still identify
1094
01:01:12.590 --> 01:01:15.690
as an alcoholic addict, but in the very narrow way,
1095
01:01:16.150 --> 01:01:18.110
in the way of like, I should not pick up
1096
01:01:18.469 --> 01:01:20.949
drugs and alcohol, but it doesn't, I don't feel like
1097
01:01:20.989 --> 01:01:24.030
it says anything else about me anymore. So I think
1098
01:01:24.130 --> 01:01:29.170
identity is, identities are useful sometimes until they're not.
1099
01:01:29.769 --> 01:01:31.070
Yeah, I agree with you.
1100
01:01:31.369 --> 01:01:34.199
And so being able to look at identity and go,
1101
01:01:34.460 --> 01:01:38.099
is this identity one that is helping me and is
1102
01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:41.389
useful sometimes? I just think usefulness is such a key
1103
01:01:41.469 --> 01:01:46.550
criteria to so many things. It's like, which identity am I?
1104
01:01:46.909 --> 01:01:50.110
None of them really, right? It's all made up to
1105
01:01:50.150 --> 01:01:53.429
a certain degree. So pick the one then if you're
1106
01:01:53.449 --> 01:01:56.309
going to do it, pick the one that helps you
1107
01:01:56.889 --> 01:02:00.559
and then be willing to set it aside when it doesn't.
1108
01:02:00.900 --> 01:02:04.510
Now that's easier to say than do. But one of
1109
01:02:04.530 --> 01:02:07.019
the things I focus on with people right out of
1110
01:02:07.059 --> 01:02:09.420
the gate when I'm working with them on change is
1111
01:02:09.900 --> 01:02:18.340
driving home the idea that change is a skill set. Absolutely.
1112
01:02:18.570 --> 01:02:22.989
It is not character related. It is not personality related.
1113
01:02:23.210 --> 01:02:26.909
Like there are skills that you can learn that help
1114
01:02:26.949 --> 01:02:30.320
you change. And if we can't get at least open
1115
01:02:30.380 --> 01:02:35.769
our minds to that to a certain degree, We can't change, right?
1116
01:02:35.809 --> 01:02:38.309
We have to be able to believe on some level
1117
01:02:38.369 --> 01:02:42.849
that we can. Identity is also tricky because you can't
1118
01:02:42.909 --> 01:02:45.909
bullshit yourself. You can't be like, I'm a non-smoker as
1119
01:02:45.949 --> 01:02:51.429
you smoke every day, right? It's very difficult to take
1120
01:02:51.530 --> 01:02:55.809
on that identity. So we have to begin to change
1121
01:02:55.929 --> 01:02:59.289
behavior constantly. And I think there's often like, which do
1122
01:02:59.349 --> 01:03:02.289
I do first, change behavior or change identity? I actually
1123
01:03:02.349 --> 01:03:07.409
think ideally they move in parallel. Ideally they move in parallel.
1124
01:03:07.469 --> 01:03:11.090
You start to take evidence of, oh, suddenly I am
1125
01:03:11.150 --> 01:03:14.289
behaving differently than I used to. So maybe I'm not that.
1126
01:03:14.809 --> 01:03:19.190
Maybe I'm this. And we hold it kind of loosely
1127
01:03:19.969 --> 01:03:23.659
as time moves on. It's a fascinating subject.
1128
01:03:24.429 --> 01:03:26.769
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, even as I began to
1129
01:03:26.809 --> 01:03:30.219
make that identity shift around smoking, you know, I still
1130
01:03:30.260 --> 01:03:33.079
relapsed a little bit, but somehow, you know, it was
1131
01:03:33.139 --> 01:03:35.679
a gradual shift. I really, you know, I was no longer,
1132
01:03:35.699 --> 01:03:40.320
I was no longer idealizing or glorifying smoking, right? It
1133
01:03:40.360 --> 01:03:45.780
wasn't a whole thing anymore, right? And so when I relapsed,
1134
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:49.179
I realized, okay, no, I'm I'm pretty clear about this,
1135
01:03:49.219 --> 01:03:51.440
but I still have some brain circuits in there that
1136
01:03:51.480 --> 01:03:53.340
like to smoke. There's a part of me that can,
1137
01:03:53.539 --> 01:03:56.139
it can, you know, boom, you know, maybe that'll be
1138
01:03:56.179 --> 01:03:59.920
gone someday. But in the meantime, I need to focus
1139
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.889
on that growing part of my brain that, that sees
1140
01:04:02.969 --> 01:04:05.690
a different reality. Right. And that's, I think that, that
1141
01:04:05.730 --> 01:04:09.289
gradual shift that, uh, that we can make. And, uh,
1142
01:04:09.639 --> 01:04:12.530
You know, I agree with you. I was deeply involved
1143
01:04:12.639 --> 01:04:14.909
in 12-step work during my prison time, and it was
1144
01:04:15.030 --> 01:04:18.969
very transformative for me. We had a wonderful combined AANA group,
1145
01:04:19.530 --> 01:04:22.369
amazing sponsors that came in from the outside, and one
1146
01:04:22.429 --> 01:04:24.679
of them was my dearest friend until he passed a
1147
01:04:24.699 --> 01:04:29.219
couple of years ago. But one of the limitations I've
1148
01:04:30.019 --> 01:04:34.820
always seen with that is this permanent identity, right? that
1149
01:04:35.360 --> 01:04:38.139
I'm an alcoholic, I'm an addict, and some, a bit
1150
01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:40.639
of a fear-based thing that, you know, I'm one step
1151
01:04:40.719 --> 01:04:44.280
away from total disaster, right? Yeah. But I met a
1152
01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:46.650
lot of, and fortunately, I had a sponsor that used
1153
01:04:46.670 --> 01:04:49.309
to bring in some of the people that are meeting
1154
01:04:49.369 --> 01:04:51.449
from the outside who are these people that are kind of,
1155
01:04:51.449 --> 01:04:54.190
what do they call them? The circuit speakers in ANA.
1156
01:04:54.409 --> 01:04:57.170
They're out there. They're the kind of big shots that
1157
01:04:57.250 --> 01:04:59.159
are out in the circuit. And a lot of them
1158
01:04:59.179 --> 01:05:02.019
are really accomplished people, and they're well down their path.
1159
01:05:02.039 --> 01:05:05.659
They're very spiritually realized people. And you can't tell me
1160
01:05:06.179 --> 01:05:09.739
that they believe they're one step away from disaster, right?
1161
01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:12.360
They've developed a lot of momentum, a lot of wherewithal
1162
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.400
to not let that take over their lives again. But
1163
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.389
so I think that identity is very important. I wouldn't
1164
01:05:18.409 --> 01:05:20.889
want to take it away from any alcoholic that it's
1165
01:05:20.929 --> 01:05:25.309
keeping them alive. But at some point, I think I've always,
1166
01:05:25.449 --> 01:05:27.090
I have a lot of friends that are still involved
1167
01:05:27.210 --> 01:05:29.369
in 12-step work. I said, it would be really great
1168
01:05:29.429 --> 01:05:31.960
if maybe there's like a, and maybe this already exists,
1169
01:05:32.000 --> 01:05:35.590
but there's a kind of secret advancement AA out there somewhere.
1170
01:05:35.610 --> 01:05:39.250
And there probably are in private groups, you know, uh,
1171
01:05:39.289 --> 01:05:42.989
people that realize, okay, we've, that we love it. This
1172
01:05:43.070 --> 01:05:46.300
is how we transform. We're not there anymore, but we're,
1173
01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:49.420
we don't want to, you know, uh, pollute the waters
1174
01:05:49.460 --> 01:05:52.800
for the people who still need that identity. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1175
01:05:52.860 --> 01:05:54.679
I'm, well, I think there's a lot of us wandering
1176
01:05:54.739 --> 01:05:57.400
around that are in that camp, you know, you, me,
1177
01:05:57.460 --> 01:06:00.059
I mean, I talked to a lot of people I mean,
1178
01:06:00.099 --> 01:06:02.619
and Bill Wilson said it himself. He said, you know,
1179
01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:08.590
AA is like spiritual kindergarten, right? I mean, like, it's not, again,
1180
01:06:09.670 --> 01:06:12.929
everybody finds their own thing. And I do think that,
1181
01:06:14.309 --> 01:06:18.530
you know, when I started to move away from 12-step programs,
1182
01:06:19.070 --> 01:06:22.440
I don't know, a decade ago, I was very cautious
1183
01:06:22.460 --> 01:06:26.340
because I had gone back out after eight years. And
1184
01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:29.699
One of the things that happened in that period was
1185
01:06:29.739 --> 01:06:31.820
I just stopped going to meetings and I ended up
1186
01:06:32.119 --> 01:06:34.500
getting drunk. So I was like, well, okay, that's interesting.
1187
01:06:34.539 --> 01:06:38.639
That happened. So as I noticed this natural desire to
1188
01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:40.960
start to step back, I was like, well, hang on.
1189
01:06:41.179 --> 01:06:44.440
I got to be careful here. And I thought like,
1190
01:06:44.619 --> 01:06:48.179
what is it that I get? What is it that
1191
01:06:48.219 --> 01:06:50.610
I'm getting there? And I was like, okay, well, I'm
1192
01:06:50.650 --> 01:06:52.750
getting fellowship with people who understand me.
1193
01:06:52.769 --> 01:06:53.349
Mm-hmm.
1194
01:06:54.440 --> 01:07:00.420
I'm getting a structured program of change, the steps, and
1195
01:07:00.460 --> 01:07:04.960
I'm getting the opportunity to help people. And it's all
1196
01:07:05.059 --> 01:07:09.070
bundled together really easily here. So what I did was
1197
01:07:09.130 --> 01:07:11.710
I went, well, where do I, okay, do I have that?
1198
01:07:11.829 --> 01:07:14.510
Do I have fellowship? Do I have people that I
1199
01:07:14.570 --> 01:07:16.789
can talk to that understand me, that I can be
1200
01:07:16.929 --> 01:07:19.130
open and honest and connect with and spend time with?
1201
01:07:19.170 --> 01:07:21.289
I was like, oh yes, I do. Okay, good. Do
1202
01:07:21.349 --> 01:07:24.219
I have a structured program of change? Well, at that time,
1203
01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:27.489
I was doing deep Zen study. I was like, I do, right?
1204
01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:27.929
I do.
1205
01:07:28.050 --> 01:07:33.110
I'm on a path of change, of improvement, of deepening myself.
1206
01:07:33.889 --> 01:07:37.050
And then do I help people? Do I have opportunities
1207
01:07:37.070 --> 01:07:38.550
to help people? And I looked around and I was like, yeah,
1208
01:07:38.570 --> 01:07:41.409
I've got lots of different places that I am helping people.
1209
01:07:41.820 --> 01:07:44.420
And so for me, then I went, okay, that's what
1210
01:07:44.500 --> 01:07:49.179
recovery is for me. I can recover in lots... I
1211
01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:52.820
can recover in different circumstances if I... for me, if
1212
01:07:52.900 --> 01:07:54.800
I bring those things along with me.
1213
01:07:55.860 --> 01:07:59.409
Absolutely. And that, you know, it's about to reflect that I,
1214
01:07:59.650 --> 01:08:02.469
you know, I'm not literally involved in 12 step groups anymore,
1215
01:08:02.789 --> 01:08:05.130
but I feel my life is very much a 12
1216
01:08:05.130 --> 01:08:07.989
step oriented life. The way I live my life and
1217
01:08:08.030 --> 01:08:11.159
the way I resource myself very much follows that path.
1218
01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:14.099
And actually when I got out of prison, um, which
1219
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:16.079
was in 1999, so it's been going on 27 years. Um,
1220
01:08:19.449 --> 01:08:21.060
I went to meetings for a while because it was
1221
01:08:21.109 --> 01:08:24.060
a huge part of my life inside, right? Huge part.
1222
01:08:24.619 --> 01:08:26.319
And not the only thing I was doing, I was
1223
01:08:26.380 --> 01:08:28.539
led a meditation group. I was doing hospice work. I
1224
01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:30.680
was doing all kinds of inner work and all kinds
1225
01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:33.390
of work. The 12 step group really was an anchor.
1226
01:08:34.109 --> 01:08:35.630
And so I got out. So I started going to
1227
01:08:35.670 --> 01:08:41.470
meetings and I, I didn't quite find the meeting that felt,
1228
01:08:41.630 --> 01:08:44.140
you know, like really home for me, but it was
1229
01:08:44.239 --> 01:08:49.470
also that, um, I was getting involved back in my life,
1230
01:08:49.739 --> 01:08:53.810
and my primary path has been for over 50 years,
1231
01:08:53.829 --> 01:08:57.189
the Buddhist path, and both Tibetan and Zen Buddhism, and
1232
01:08:57.609 --> 01:09:00.460
very involved, that big song, I'm very, it's huge. I'm
1233
01:09:00.680 --> 01:09:03.760
deeply involved in it. And so the idea that I'm
1234
01:09:03.779 --> 01:09:07.399
going to be able to do all these paths with integrity, right.
1235
01:09:07.800 --> 01:09:10.470
And also that, you know, one of my, my, that
1236
01:09:10.489 --> 01:09:12.949
sponsor I referenced and, you know, he had told me
1237
01:09:13.010 --> 01:09:16.350
early on when I think when I first met him, uh, uh,
1238
01:09:16.409 --> 01:09:18.340
at the beginning of my journey there, cause he, he
1239
01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:20.899
was coming in when I first got to prison. Um,
1240
01:09:21.560 --> 01:09:24.399
just a side note to the dedication of that work.
1241
01:09:25.140 --> 01:09:27.800
There'd been a gentleman who was a local, you know,
1242
01:09:27.819 --> 01:09:31.880
this is Springfield, Missouri, right? So decent sized town, but
1243
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:34.859
surrounded by rural areas. So there was a gentleman that
1244
01:09:34.899 --> 01:09:36.800
had been coming into that prison as one of the
1245
01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:40.489
people bringing the program inside for decades. And he was,
1246
01:09:40.579 --> 01:09:42.920
by this time he was in his eighties, he was
1247
01:09:42.979 --> 01:09:46.149
a farmer, just ordinary, you know, guy. And yeah, Anyway,
1248
01:09:46.189 --> 01:09:49.770
he had been training my friend, John, to take over
1249
01:09:49.829 --> 01:09:54.310
for him, right? And so the more elderly gentleman was
1250
01:09:54.329 --> 01:09:56.670
still there. Both he and John were coming in for
1251
01:09:56.710 --> 01:09:59.329
the first maybe two years. And then the elderly gentleman
1252
01:09:59.369 --> 01:10:02.359
finally retired. And John took over and showed up every
1253
01:10:02.420 --> 01:10:05.180
week the whole time I was 14 years I was there,
1254
01:10:05.319 --> 01:10:06.939
along with the other people that would come in, right?
1255
01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:09.979
But the level of dedication in those programs is incredible.
1256
01:10:11.300 --> 01:10:13.319
But at any rate, I got out. I'm going to
1257
01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:16.210
me is, And I, so he, oh yeah, he had
1258
01:10:16.369 --> 01:10:18.159
originally told me almost the first time I met him,
1259
01:10:18.170 --> 01:10:20.470
if you want this program to work for you, be
1260
01:10:20.529 --> 01:10:23.890
someone who makes it available to others. And I really
1261
01:10:23.930 --> 01:10:26.310
got that. So I was there in the core of
1262
01:10:26.350 --> 01:10:29.069
that group for 14 years. I was constantly, you know,
1263
01:10:29.109 --> 01:10:30.590
people are familiar with the group. You have all these
1264
01:10:30.630 --> 01:10:33.789
service positions. I was constantly training up people and turning
1265
01:10:33.810 --> 01:10:36.130
them over and turning them over. But that prison had
1266
01:10:36.170 --> 01:10:39.149
a lot of turnover. Most people were there for nine months,
1267
01:10:39.149 --> 01:10:42.229
18 months, somewhere in between there. And so it would
1268
01:10:42.250 --> 01:10:44.510
keep falling back on me, right? And I'd be in
1269
01:10:44.949 --> 01:10:47.470
a new group of people. But I was always there
1270
01:10:47.489 --> 01:10:49.569
in the background making it happen. I always showed up
1271
01:10:49.609 --> 01:10:51.380
the hour before it started to help put out the
1272
01:10:51.399 --> 01:10:54.239
coffee and everything. So I knew I wasn't going to
1273
01:10:54.279 --> 01:10:58.659
be able to be that involved in the 12-step groups
1274
01:10:58.739 --> 01:11:01.300
on the outside because I had more than that involvement
1275
01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:04.829
in my other path, right? And so somehow, like it
1276
01:11:04.850 --> 01:11:06.949
was difficult for me to just go meetings as kind
1277
01:11:06.970 --> 01:11:10.609
of a consumer, right? You know, nothing wrong with that,
1278
01:11:10.670 --> 01:11:13.010
but it was just for me. So for a lot
1279
01:11:13.029 --> 01:11:16.350
of reasons, it didn't work for me. I always had
1280
01:11:16.390 --> 01:11:18.609
that thought, and I still have the thought, if I
1281
01:11:18.670 --> 01:11:21.329
ever do get in trouble with drugs or alcohol, I'll
1282
01:11:21.350 --> 01:11:23.609
be kind of grateful because I love the program. I'll
1283
01:11:23.630 --> 01:11:26.289
be back in the program in a heartbeat. But fortunately,
1284
01:11:26.310 --> 01:11:31.390
that hasn't happened. But I have replicated that path in
1285
01:11:31.430 --> 01:11:35.270
my life in so many ways, like you've described. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1286
01:11:35.550 --> 01:11:40.789
And you're, you're right. There is something about like being
1287
01:11:40.829 --> 01:11:44.289
a spectator, like going to a meeting once a week
1288
01:11:44.329 --> 01:11:46.229
or going to a meeting once a month or going,
1289
01:11:46.250 --> 01:11:50.109
it just, it, it, I agree with you. I, it
1290
01:11:50.149 --> 01:11:53.770
doesn't feel the same to me. I will go to meetings.
1291
01:11:53.909 --> 01:11:56.510
Like I have a friend, uh, he's going to listen
1292
01:11:56.550 --> 01:11:59.319
to and edit this podcast, my friend, Chris. And He's
1293
01:11:59.500 --> 01:12:03.729
more like six years in recovery and he's still pretty involved. And,
1294
01:12:03.789 --> 01:12:05.810
you know, I'll go to meetings with him. If he's like,
1295
01:12:05.829 --> 01:12:07.409
you want to go to a meeting? I'm like, I'll go,
1296
01:12:07.569 --> 01:12:10.210
you know, and I go and I think they're so beautiful.
1297
01:12:10.250 --> 01:12:14.359
I'm so touched. But it just isn't part of my
1298
01:12:14.420 --> 01:12:15.520
path today.
1299
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:23.670
So this has been really, really fascinating, Eric. And so
1300
01:12:23.750 --> 01:12:26.949
for people in our audience that, you know, maybe have
1301
01:12:26.989 --> 01:12:29.149
some things in their lives they would really like to
1302
01:12:29.529 --> 01:12:32.470
see change. And up till now, they may have tried
1303
01:12:32.510 --> 01:12:35.010
all kinds of strategies that haven't worked so well. They
1304
01:12:35.050 --> 01:12:39.899
may feel somewhat powerless to change. So in terms of,
1305
01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:42.260
you know, and the whole idea of change, you mentioned
1306
01:12:42.279 --> 01:12:45.699
before that there's somewhere between self-improvement and I can't remember
1307
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:48.920
what you said, but the whole term- Self-acceptance. Yeah, self-acceptance.
1308
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:54.720
Some people in my spiritual lineages don't like the word
1309
01:12:54.760 --> 01:12:58.199
self-improvement because they think that implies there's something wrong with you.
1310
01:12:58.239 --> 01:13:01.600
You need fixing. And it can go that way. But
1311
01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:04.750
my view of it is we don't need fixing. We're
1312
01:13:04.829 --> 01:13:08.210
perfectly beautiful and wonderful, intelligent, wise creatures. This is the
1313
01:13:08.270 --> 01:13:10.829
way we are. And we're a life form and life
1314
01:13:10.850 --> 01:13:13.489
forms are designed to evolve and grow and change and
1315
01:13:13.550 --> 01:13:16.569
evolve and become the best version of themselves. Right? So
1316
01:13:16.590 --> 01:13:19.470
when I think of self-improvement, that's, that's what I think of, right?
1317
01:13:19.489 --> 01:13:22.409
There were, not self-improvement from a place where there's something
1318
01:13:22.449 --> 01:13:26.020
wrong to begin with, but just evolution and becoming, you know,
1319
01:13:26.029 --> 01:13:30.640
the very best version of ourselves, right? But it can,
1320
01:13:31.560 --> 01:13:33.779
we can create all these, we have to somehow get
1321
01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:36.159
out of these constellations of I'm broken, I suck, I
1322
01:13:36.199 --> 01:13:38.520
gotta get fixed, and I'm gonna fix it. But so,
1323
01:13:39.039 --> 01:13:42.180
for people that are feeling that to whatever degree, you know,
1324
01:13:43.890 --> 01:13:46.789
where can you begin? How can you begin? And then also,
1325
01:13:46.869 --> 01:13:49.430
how do you kind of begin to think about designing
1326
01:13:49.489 --> 01:13:54.800
my life to support ongoing positive evolution and change for myself?
1327
01:13:56.220 --> 01:13:57.649
Well, if I had a quick answer for that, I
1328
01:13:57.689 --> 01:14:01.340
wouldn't have had to write an entire book about how
1329
01:14:01.420 --> 01:14:02.079
you change.
1330
01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:04.199
Well, this would be a segue to where can people
1331
01:14:04.220 --> 01:14:05.640
find your book. Yeah.
1332
01:14:05.859 --> 01:14:09.340
I mean, things are different, but your point, I think,
1333
01:14:09.420 --> 01:14:12.000
is the first one is a good one, which is like,
1334
01:14:12.539 --> 01:14:19.579
I think we have to approach change carefully. I end
1335
01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:21.479
the book with a chapter on acceptance, which is a
1336
01:14:21.500 --> 01:14:25.699
strange place to end a book about change. And yet,
1337
01:14:26.239 --> 01:14:30.890
changing things is not always the answer to anything. There
1338
01:14:31.489 --> 01:14:34.930
is times that change is good. There's times to set
1339
01:14:34.970 --> 01:14:37.270
it down. My experience is I actually end up doing
1340
01:14:37.329 --> 01:14:40.029
both most of the time. I'm both accepting my life
1341
01:14:40.170 --> 01:14:42.109
and I'm working to change my life at the same time.
1342
01:14:42.539 --> 01:14:45.899
Both things are, both things are, are true. You know,
1343
01:14:45.920 --> 01:14:48.979
the place to start, I think is I would come
1344
01:14:49.020 --> 01:14:50.859
back to what I said a few minutes ago, which
1345
01:14:50.920 --> 01:14:54.289
is to really start to say like, okay, can I,
1346
01:14:54.720 --> 01:14:58.010
can I start, can I find a way to believe
1347
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:02.829
that change is a skillset? How can I really like
1348
01:15:03.329 --> 01:15:06.550
just begin to open my mind to that idea? And
1349
01:15:09.449 --> 01:15:14.619
what is one small positive thing I can do now?
1350
01:15:15.680 --> 01:15:18.840
You know, like what is the next good thing that
1351
01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:22.100
I can do? You know, I think that's really where
1352
01:15:22.140 --> 01:15:26.399
it begins. It begins with little steps. So if there's
1353
01:15:26.439 --> 01:15:31.449
a particular thing you have wanted to change, then what
1354
01:15:31.550 --> 01:15:36.350
is a, a step that you can take? Um, towards it, but,
1355
01:15:36.489 --> 01:15:39.550
but ultimately there, there is a, there's a number of
1356
01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:44.319
skills that we, that we need to learn. And, and that's,
1357
01:15:44.600 --> 01:15:46.779
you know, that's kind of what the book is, is
1358
01:15:46.899 --> 01:15:52.119
focused on. But my, my experience is small steps, find
1359
01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:55.609
something small, do it, build on it. You know, we,
1360
01:15:55.909 --> 01:15:58.350
you and I are, you know, you're, you're, you, you
1361
01:15:58.449 --> 01:16:02.699
are a highly, you know, you're, transmitted Zen teacher and
1362
01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:05.899
Tibetan teacher. And so you've logged a few hours of
1363
01:16:05.939 --> 01:16:09.970
meditation probably in your life. And the story that I
1364
01:16:10.010 --> 01:16:13.930
tell is often that I tried to meditate for so
1365
01:16:13.970 --> 01:16:16.529
many years and I just couldn't do it. It's because
1366
01:16:16.590 --> 01:16:18.369
it was way before the internet and there were just
1367
01:16:18.470 --> 01:16:20.770
books and they'd be like, meditate for like 45 minutes
1368
01:16:20.810 --> 01:16:23.909
or an hour. And I couldn't do it. I just
1369
01:16:23.949 --> 01:16:25.989
couldn't do it. I'd sit down, I'd do it. I'd
1370
01:16:26.029 --> 01:16:27.689
do it for a day. I'd do it for a week.
1371
01:16:28.510 --> 01:16:28.949
I would quit.
1372
01:16:29.310 --> 01:16:31.909
I eventually started to just be like, I'm going to
1373
01:16:31.930 --> 01:16:35.560
do it three minutes a day, but I'm going to
1374
01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:38.619
do it. I can do that every day. And that
1375
01:16:38.640 --> 01:16:42.100
became five, which became seven, which became 10, which led
1376
01:16:42.159 --> 01:16:45.020
to me sitting multiple weeks in Zen Sashin, right? Like
1377
01:16:45.340 --> 01:16:50.899
that little bit, that little bit can be the opening
1378
01:16:51.000 --> 01:16:54.689
point Start small, find something that you can succeed at
1379
01:16:54.869 --> 01:16:58.909
and build from there. And people can find me at oneufeed.net.
1380
01:16:58.949 --> 01:17:06.770
That's O-N-E-Y-O-U-F-E-E-D.net. You can find my book there, my podcast,
1381
01:17:08.439 --> 01:17:10.020
book me as a speaker, any of the things you
1382
01:17:10.060 --> 01:17:10.600
might want to do.
1383
01:17:11.539 --> 01:17:13.800
Wonderful. I really encourage people to check out your work.
1384
01:17:13.859 --> 01:17:19.020
And that idea of just making those positive choices, taking
1385
01:17:19.079 --> 01:17:25.029
those steps, And again, wherever we begin, because for someone
1386
01:17:25.050 --> 01:17:28.090
who's really in the throes of alcoholism, just making that
1387
01:17:28.130 --> 01:17:30.109
choice to go to a meeting, just put your butt
1388
01:17:30.130 --> 01:17:33.010
in the chair, that can be a really high level skill.
1389
01:17:33.029 --> 01:17:35.930
It doesn't seem that sophisticated. And maybe I'm not there
1390
01:17:35.989 --> 01:17:38.430
supporting the meeting or anything. Maybe I'm kind of coming
1391
01:17:38.470 --> 01:17:41.890
as a spectator, but probably if I'm sitting in that chair,
1392
01:17:42.029 --> 01:17:43.710
it's going to lead to better things than if I'm
1393
01:17:43.750 --> 01:17:46.130
sitting in the bar chair, right? So, you know, just
1394
01:17:46.170 --> 01:17:49.350
taking wherever we're at, taking steps, taking action, taking, and
1395
01:17:49.979 --> 01:17:53.340
and being willing to start small. I love, you know,
1396
01:17:53.359 --> 01:17:57.609
is it B.J. Fogg's book, Tiny Habits? You know, it's
1397
01:17:57.630 --> 01:17:59.729
sort of like, you want to start getting in shape,
1398
01:18:00.149 --> 01:18:02.689
do one pushup. I'm going to do one pushup a day.
1399
01:18:03.010 --> 01:18:05.329
You won't keep doing one pushup for very long. You're
1400
01:18:05.350 --> 01:18:07.750
going to find yourself doing two and then you'll find
1401
01:18:07.770 --> 01:18:10.510
yourself doing three and then you'll find yourself doing four, right?
1402
01:18:10.529 --> 01:18:11.489
And it's just like that.
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Yeah. I mean, one of the things we know about
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motivation is that it goes up when we feel good
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about ourselves and it goes down when we feel bad
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about ourselves. So what we have to find is a
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way to pick something that we can succeed at because
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that begets more motivation. And so, yeah, you know, find the,
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and again, it seems insignificant to start, but it doesn't
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stay there. That is the path.
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Absolutely. Well, it's been incredibly valuable. Thank you so much, Eric.
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Thank you for your time today.
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01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:45.390
Thank you for your work in the world and really
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01:18:45.430 --> 01:18:51.140
people need to find out more about Your... book, which
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01:18:51.319 --> 01:18:54.220
is How a Little Becomes a Lot, The Art of
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01:18:54.300 --> 01:18:58.569
Small Changes for a More Meaningful Life. So check that out, everyone.
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01:18:58.710 --> 01:18:59.770
Thank you so much, Eric.
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01:19:00.210 --> 01:19:02.170
Thank you, Fleet. It's been a real, real pleasure.
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01:19:02.550 --> 01:19:08.609
Be well. Thank you for joining me on the Radical
1420
01:19:08.649 --> 01:19:12.829
Responsibility Podcast. Remember, real change happens when we commit to
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01:19:12.890 --> 01:19:16.689
our growth, face our challenges with compassion, and stay open
1422
01:19:16.710 --> 01:19:20.029
to transformation. If you found this episode helpful, I encourage
1423
01:19:20.050 --> 01:19:22.329
you to subscribe and help us spread the message of
1424
01:19:22.369 --> 01:19:26.689
healing and personal empowerment. Until next time, stay grounded, stay present,
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01:19:27.109 --> 01:19:29.029
and stay true to yourself. Take care.