The Art and Science of Email Deliverability with Chris Arrendale

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Hello.
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Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by the Mo Pros, powered by marketingops.com.
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I'm Michael Hartmann, your host.
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Joined today by finally, both Naomi and Mike, again, Mike Rizzo.
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Naomi Liu, please say hello.
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And this year, what is the year?
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Mike?
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It's been a while.
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Right.
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So
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need a reminder
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folks.
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that you're the mopro and.
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I'm glad to be back.
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It's been a minute.
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It is, It has and it's, I was thinking, uh, this is where my mind wonders when I'm not busy enough, I guess.
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But I was thinking as we get close to the end of the year, we're gonna have to figure out how are we gonna end 2022, You know?
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So we'll get there, but not before.
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Not before we talk to today's guests.
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So joining us today to talk about both the art and science of.
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Email deliverability is Chris Arrendale.
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He's a CEO and founder of Cyber Data Pros.
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Chris is a privacy data security and compliance professional with a proven and track record of accomplishment for enhancing organization practices while focused on revenue growth before starting Cyber Data Pros, Chris has started multiple consulting companies and advises with several other companies and all things deliverability.
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He started his career with Silver Pop, so those of you old enough might remember Silver Pop.
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I do Helping clients.
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Yeah, helping clients with deliverability challenges.
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So Chris is a sought after expert, author and speaker, and I've had the pleasure of working with Chris, uh, a couple of times.
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So, uh, Chris, thank you for joining us today.
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Thank you for having me.
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Yeah, it's, uh, back in the good old days of Silver Pop.
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That was a long time ago, but it's definitely been a great journey.
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so I think I studi like silver pop, exact target, like I think I've used all of those.
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Yep.
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I know.
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It's, uh, it was, it was crazy back in the day just thinking about, you know, like Bill Nu and the teams that were there and, and how they've kind of gone off and done other things.
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And so it was exciting time.
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I met my wife there by the, by the way.
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So, uh, it was, it was great for me.
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So, good career and, and great life choice.
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Awesome.
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Well, uh, so Chris, we are excited to have you join us.
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I think if, if the rest of the audience or the rest of our listeners was like me, I feel like I, I feel like I always know just like the, the tip of the iceberg about deliverability and for our audience.
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So Chris actually presented at my company, uh, globally yesterday, and, um, Even then I learned a little bit of something about just terminology.
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So hopefully this is gonna be helpful for everybody.
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I think we all care about deliverability and privacy.
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Um, feel like we might know something about it, but probably missing some details.
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So, Chris, why don't we just start off with like maybe major components involved with the deliverability, key terms we should all be familiar with, so that we are starting on a sort of a common foundation of terminology at a.
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Yeah, that's good.
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Good point here.
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There's definitely a lot that goes into it, right?
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You know, taking in the considerations of things like privacy and compliance and we all know can spam, we are pretty familiar with GDPR and Castle, you know, terms like CCPA and cpr, of course approaching with AD PPA on the national level, right?
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But if you think about deliverability, it's, you know, you hear terms like engagement here, terms like reputation, uh, then you start to get into things like demark and bi, right?
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So there's a lot of things there I would say.
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You know, one thing that, uh, everybody needs to really pay attention to is the fact of things like reputation more on the domain itself.
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That sending subdomain, that sending top level domain is very important, right?
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A lot of providers now in filtering companies are looking at that to really gauge inbox placement, to gauge sort of that metric of, you know, are you getting in the inbox and how often and how much, and you know, what providers are doing that.
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So that's really important there.
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Again, engagement, as I mentioned, you know, getting people to actually click on your message to open, to actually do something with it, Save it, forward it, reply to it, right?
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You know, replying to an email, especially from a brand, is really important from the filtering and ISP perspective.
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They see that as a positive form of engagement.
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Um, but as I, as I mentioned before, there's a lot of things that marketers can't measure, right?
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So they can't measure someone.
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Moving.
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You know, if, uh, somebody that's in spam to the inbox, they can't measure somebody ignoring their message, you know, not scrolling, things like that.
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So there's a lot of things that are kind of the nuance there.
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Um, some of the other terms I mentioned also as well as, um, mentioned the term d a, right?
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Uh, d a is essentially a, a system that allows you to receive reports.
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Of anybody else that's trying to use your domain to send emails.
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So think about, you know, domain protection, anti phishing, anti spoofing methodologies.
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That's really important because if you start to think, you know, if your emails are being marked as phish fishing, you know, having demark in place helps you with that and, and ultimately bii, which allows you to have your brand's logo next to your from.
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It's like that carrot and stick.
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And so it's great to actually see the brand's logo next to from name and say, Oh, I recognize that brand from the logo.
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I'm gonna click on that email.
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Right?
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And so it is, it's more about engagement with the audience and things that you can do to kind of, to kind of have that, I think, you know, Again, a lot of terms that we talk about and, and, and there's, you know, Michael, you're right, there's a lot of acronyms that kind of go into this, right?
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And so knowing those acronyms, understanding them, um, and then also too, how, how it relates to, um, you know, to to, to really, you know, just tying it to dollars, right?
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Tying it to revenue.
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I was on a call earlier and, and somebody mentioned, how does, you know, what does deliverability mean in terms of revenue?
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Right?
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I, because you know, again, as.
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As a technologist, you're thinking things like engagement and content and subject line.
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And, you know, my e p my market automation provider, they've already set up all my DNS records and authentication.
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So what does deliverability really mean, right?
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So you start to think about those, you know, soft bounces those blocks, right?
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So if you're blocked to a filter, blocked at a certain is p, you're not getting into the inbox and nobody can actually see your message, right?
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So if somebody, if they can't see your message, How are they gonna actually engage with it?
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So, uh, I'm excited to be here and I think there's a lot of things that, you know, we can discuss as it relates to what are some actions that, you know, some of these individuals can take to make sure that deliverability is tied to revenue?
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Yeah, I, so I, I remember one of the big aha moments for me when you, when you talked to the, our company yesterday was you, you really clearly defined deliverability versus delivered.
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And, and honestly, I already forgot which one represents actually making it to the inbox.
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Right.
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So, um, What, you know, how do you distinguish between those two?
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Because I think that's a, For me, that was a really important thing cuz really what I care about is making it to the inbox.
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So that's not necessarily what we're able to measure.
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Correct.
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Yeah.
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So deliverability versus delivered, right?
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So sent minus, bounced equals delivered.
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So if you send 110 of them bounced, right?
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You've got a 90% delivered rate.
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Oftentimes people get that confused with, That's my deliverability rate, right?
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That's not the case because when you send the email and the recipient's, mail server accepts it, They can move it to the inbox, the junk forward quarantine.
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They can do whatever you want after the fact.
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But again, measuring inbox placement, that's deliverability, right?
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And so lots of tactics and tips to kind of do that.
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But by no means can you ever see across a report and say, Oh, I sent 3,200 900, 2,999, got it to the inbox.
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That's not something that can be measured, right?
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You can use tools like seed testing, panel testing.
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Looking at your campaign data to kind of gauge inbox placement, but overall, you know, the art of deliverability is, you know, getting those emails into the inbox where delivered is just a metric of how many emails actually made it to the recipients mail server.
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Yeah.
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And that's really all we have access to in a lot of our market automation and email PLA platforms.
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So you, you, you, you rattled off a number of different, um, privacy laws.
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I liked your.
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I like your take on can spams, that you can spam
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You can spam
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So, um, Yeah.
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This is a nice little dad joke there.
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So I appreciate, I always appreciate a good dad joke, Chris.
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I've got plenty of those so everybody that knows me knows I love Dad jokes.
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there you go.
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So let, like what is, what's the connection point of the relationship between.
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Deliverability and delivered as as well, and against sort of compliance and kinda what you're doing from a privacy compliance standpoint.
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That's a good question.
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So I'd say a lot of it has to deal with, you know, either in from the opt in process or from the opt out process too.
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Right?
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So data collection, right?
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So as we know, uh, many of the, uh, listeners know.
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GDPR is that explicit opt in consent.
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Right?
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So actually clicking on a box saying, Yes, I do wanna receive emails from this person, Castle, the same thing.
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Can spam is more of, again, an opt out law, right?
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So, um, just making sure that you, when you do unsubscribe, that you are suppressing that individual.
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From your list.
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Um, but then you start to look at the entire changing landscape of what we've seen over the past four or five years.
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Things like, you know, do not sell my data.
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The right to be forgotten, the right to data portability, the right to, you know, having your data modified, the right to having your data stop being processed.
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Right.
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As we all know with CPA that came out, um, The reason that came out is honestly, uh, I believe California right now is the fifth largest economy in the world, just the state of California.
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And so if you think about the companies that are in California, the data, they have access to the breaches that are occurring.
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You know, the governor said, Hey, we gotta stop this.
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And so again, having the right to stop having all this data processed again, plays into the fact.
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How much data are marketers collecting on people?
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Right?
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I always talk about data minimization and the fact that sometimes marketers are over collecting data.
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Think about progressive, right?
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You know, you, hey, yes, I want this, this, uh, particular download, first name, last name, email address.
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But then they start asking for job title, company size, company name, address, what are you doing with that data, right?
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And so if you're, if you're over collecting, if you're keeping it, if you have to store it, you have to encrypt it, you have to secure it, you have to, you know, principle of least privilege.
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All that plays into, you know, again, data breach, data loss, state leakage.
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Now, as it relates to deliverability, also, You gotta think about, you know, these email addresses that are being scraped and sold, right?
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And, and people that are buying those bad lists.
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And of course, sending to those, you're hitting, you know, getting hard bounces, you're hitting spam traps and possibly landing on a major block list.
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It's crazy.
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Like am I actually a little freaked out right now so I can't lie?
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I was like, I'm I've, I am.
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Since the start of this conversation, two things popped into my head.
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The first one is totally not relevant, but my transcript editor is going to struggle greatly with the number of acronyms that we just spun off right now at the start of this conversation,
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That or my southern accent.
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Right?
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And I think that'll, it'll pick up that, but it's gonna be like, De Kim, blah, blah.
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You know, all the things.
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A lot of which I've heard, right.
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And I, I love, I love that you're like, Hey, we all know, you know, the California, what is it?
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CC?
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E C P.
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I don't even know the acronym by Heart D cpa.
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I was like, Do we all know that Uh, but then the, the second piece is I'm actively in the middle of this conversation realizing that my, almost every brand I think that I've been at has not, probably not set up all three of the spiff D cam, D mark records, and.
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Bim me as I Google it live.
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As we're recording this, I'm going, this is cool.
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How do I set this up so I'm learning something?
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To your point, Michael, like if you learn something yesterday, I'm learning something right?
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Right now and I can tell you Yeah, we need to go set some things up cuz this is freaking me out.
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Well that, that point about, you know, collecting what, what I think most of our listeners, I'd love your thought is this like, Job title in company size and some of these things they'd seem pretty common to collect and ask for in innocuous.
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But now you're saying like they need to, They should.
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They should be.
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I don't know if they have to be, but they should be encrypted.
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They should be like, I would venture the guess that most people are not doing those things.
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Uh,
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I mean, yeah, like.
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yeah.
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If your forms are, like, if your forms are encrypted, like all, if the forms are you're, that you're collecting and the platforms that you're using have encryption on them.
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I guess the question is like, what are you doing with that information?
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Right.
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Are, you know, you, you mentioned progressive profiling and all of that stuff like.
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I, I don't know.
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I have a hard time with that.
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Right.
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Like I, I, I like getting the account information.
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Definitely right.
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But we populate that information.
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You can populate that information with things like Zoom info and, you know, DMV optimizer, like you don't necessarily need to ask the person for it.
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Right.
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Especially if they're public facing accounts.
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Right.
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And you want them to convert on the form.
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And what was it, there was a benchmark that had, that, I had read a couple years old now, but something like every additional question you ask somebody on a form drops a conversion rate by like 12%.
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Yeah, and I, I think, you know, you're, you're, you're right.
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I think that what happens though, oftentimes the form itself is encrypted, Right.
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You know, SSL encryption, the data transfer is encrypted, but then it gets stored in.
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Database or an Excel spreadsheet that's not encrypted and maybe on somebody's laptop they get stolen and then all that data is out, right?
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Well, hopefully all of our listeners are using something like a proper market automation platform and not something that just feeds data into an Excel or Google sheet.
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Right?
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Well, if they're, if they're like, I bet there's several of us who have experience where somebody says, Well, I'm just gonna throw up a Google form and it's in a
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah, I mean like I like I think about marketing ops like even 10, 11 years ago, it's, look at the wild, wild west, right?
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What is castle?
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What is duty pr?
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200,000 emails on a Friday afternoon, Let's hit send.
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What could go wrong?
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You know, it's just and I feel like a lot of these laws have like evolved to try to keep up with the changing landscape of all of this information.
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But it's interesting cuz like on a personal level, I don't mind having data collected about myself, and I don't know if I'm like the, you know, the exception here, but I wish I had something on my phone or my computer that would just accept all cookies automatically for me everywhere.
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You know, that I just never have to click, accept, or to like, I just, I don't ever browse on private.
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I'm just like, accept everything.
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Tell me what to buy, you know?
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so, it's so funny because I, I don't, this is way, way old and I couldn't even tell you the source, but I do remember at one point when kind of, and it was probably around when Castle was becoming big and privacy was really, Getting a lot of focus because there are a lot of bad actors out there.
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Right.
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And they still are.
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Right.
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And I'm not, I'm personally not convinced that Castle or GDPR and all that actually really had
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I can tell you, Sorry to interrupt, but since Castle came into play, I've gotten triple the amount of spammy mul since and as a Canadian, right, like, and I don't remember ever double consenting or explicitly consenting to any of this.
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I get way more emails since Castle has implemented them before.
00:15:31.304 --> 00:15:32.105
fastening.
00:15:32.350 --> 00:15:33.250
interesting.
00:15:33.370 --> 00:15:35.860
Uh, so I feel you on.
00:15:36.189 --> 00:15:45.129
Accept all cookies thing for, for those that visit our website@marketingops.com, it literally says another cookie power question mark.
00:15:45.339 --> 00:15:49.539
And then the button to accept it is accept cookie experience tracking.
00:15:49.809 --> 00:15:55.000
But like the copy within the whole thing is like, Yes, we too use cookies on our website.
00:15:55.059 --> 00:15:58.569
Like, sorry, I wish I could just accept all of
00:15:58.629 --> 00:16:00.939
Well, and it's also, again, you bring up a good point, right?
00:16:00.939 --> 00:16:02.709
It's also about user experience, right?
00:16:02.709 --> 00:16:07.240
If you think about the eu, you know, privacy is a fundamental, right, right?
00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.939
And so it's, it's the privacy and data protection.
00:16:10.240 --> 00:16:13.539
And I always like use the example of, think about Uber, right?
00:16:13.539 --> 00:16:18.549
You open the Uber app and your credit card is saved, your home address is saved, your business address is saved.
00:16:18.850 --> 00:16:22.179
You have your favorite routes, you have your favorite drivers, all the data's there.
00:16:22.659 --> 00:16:26.500
What would the user experience be like if you opened it without any of that data saved?
00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:27.459
It would be horrible.
00:16:27.774 --> 00:16:28.074
Right.
00:16:28.079 --> 00:16:45.054
And so again, I think, I think us, I think, I think people definitely in like the western world, western hemisphere are more likely to give up data and about, you know, just accepting all cookies or, here, here's my data, like, give me the best user experience than of course, you know, everybody that's in the eu, Right?
00:16:45.054 --> 00:16:46.314
So it's, it's, it's a balance.
00:16:46.735 --> 00:16:52.674
Yeah, and I think some of that comes from, um, there's, there's.
00:16:53.995 --> 00:16:59.544
We're not, we're not talking about the literal, like war here in the world, right?
00:16:59.544 --> 00:17:10.795
We're saying like there is a data, uh, battle happening all the time and, and countries don't like, that's a little scary.
00:17:10.884 --> 00:17:15.745
I totally understand that from, from a country perspective, right?
00:17:16.134 --> 00:17:22.105
Wait a minute, like some other country has access to all of my people's information that live.
00:17:22.990 --> 00:17:35.289
Um, and so I, you know, I think, I don't know for a fact, but I certainly could imagine that a lot of these laws and a lot of these practices are trying to be implemented to institute a protection around this idea that, Hey, hold on just a second.
00:17:35.289 --> 00:17:35.470
Right?
00:17:35.474 --> 00:17:38.200
And we're seeing that, we're seeing that crop up, right?
00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:43.569
With, uh, some of the conversations we've had with some other folks in our community around privacy and compliance.
00:17:43.569 --> 00:17:49.180
It's like, you need to have your servers here on this part of the country.
00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:53.394
because it's not okay that the data just lives somewhere else.
00:17:53.394 --> 00:17:55.644
And this is, these are these people, right?
00:17:56.184 --> 00:17:57.894
Um, that's kind of, I don't know.
00:17:57.954 --> 00:18:01.105
There's, I'm sure there has to be some bit of that.
00:18:01.105 --> 00:18:01.404
Right?
00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:07.105
And then, and then to this point, like, I just want to like, touch on this because I just came back from all these conferences, right?
00:18:07.585 --> 00:18:08.214
Um,
00:18:09.264 --> 00:18:10.014
humble brag.
00:18:10.075 --> 00:18:14.424
there has anybody No, it's not even a humble brag, right?
00:18:14.454 --> 00:18:15.024
Oh my gosh.
00:18:15.024 --> 00:18:16.404
It's exhausting going to these things.
00:18:16.494 --> 00:18:18.474
Um, the.
00:18:19.420 --> 00:18:20.440
These venues.
00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:20.710
Right?
00:18:20.710 --> 00:18:22.930
And Chris, maybe you have an answer for this, maybe you don't.
00:18:22.930 --> 00:18:23.170
I don't.
00:18:23.170 --> 00:18:31.960
I, you know, but passing the data between these apps from the booth scanners or whatever, like nine times outta 10 that's just sent
00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:32.799
Yeah, it is.
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:32.950
It
00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.680
like shit is not protective.
00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:35.889
not.
00:18:36.049 --> 00:18:36.399
No.
00:18:36.940 --> 00:18:39.160
we have to mark explicit language on this episode.
00:18:39.835 --> 00:18:41.634
Deliverability privacy, explicit language.
00:18:41.694 --> 00:18:42.474
But you're right though.
00:18:42.865 --> 00:18:47.335
And also too, you know, just thinking about, right Mike, like, you know, you just got back from all these conferences.
00:18:47.575 --> 00:18:49.674
How many emails have you received already?
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:51.654
That's like, Oh, Mike, thanks for visiting our booth.
00:18:51.865 --> 00:18:52.914
Can I set up a demo?
00:18:52.914 --> 00:18:54.684
Like, can we hop on a call next week?
00:18:54.684 --> 00:18:56.394
Like, how many of those have you received?
00:18:58.029 --> 00:19:00.690
Oh yeah, I've, I've had 10 in the last two weeks.
00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:04.730
One of them came through today and I was like, I definitely did not talk to
00:19:04.795 --> 00:19:12.774
Well, I was gonna say, I think the other one, one of the other things that's going on is, um, is at some events, right?
00:19:12.774 --> 00:19:17.875
There's actual tracking of where you actually go, right?
00:19:17.875 --> 00:19:20.605
So then you don't even have to go to the booth.
00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:26.464
You can have walked past it close enough where your beacon is flagged, and
00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:27.250
Your badge.
00:19:27.504 --> 00:19:32.724
probably signed some agreement that says that you're, you know, it's okay for them, like to share your information.
00:19:32.724 --> 00:19:32.845
So,
00:19:35.035 --> 00:19:35.424
Yeah.
00:19:35.424 --> 00:19:36.535
accept all cookies,
00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:37.059
Yeah.
00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:37.990
all cookies.
00:19:38.964 --> 00:19:47.754
I like to see the bend diagram of people who browse on Incognito, but have also taken 23 Amme DNA tests and submitted to like Ancestry or something.
00:19:49.704 --> 00:19:50.305
I'm actually
00:19:50.379 --> 00:19:50.559
the,
00:19:50.664 --> 00:19:51.484
curious about
00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:53.349
That's a really good one, David.
00:19:53.379 --> 00:19:55.599
I'm definitely in the 23 me database.
00:19:55.884 --> 00:19:56.244
right?
00:19:56.605 --> 00:19:57.355
I know.
00:19:57.460 --> 00:20:03.099
I, I am too, as well as a privacy professional, I actually did the same thing, you know, so it's, you're right.
00:20:03.099 --> 00:20:05.799
It's like you, so it's, you just give up some of your data
00:20:06.055 --> 00:20:09.234
Global entry clear, you know,
00:20:09.625 --> 00:20:10.164
Oh yeah,
00:20:10.315 --> 00:20:11.214
pre-check,
00:20:11.649 --> 00:20:12.009
yep.
00:20:12.069 --> 00:20:14.049
It's all about a better user experience.
00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:15.069
Right.
00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:16.539
I think that's the trade off.
00:20:17.319 --> 00:20:20.859
All right, so all these laws, they're all different.
00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:22.299
They're all changing.
00:20:22.329 --> 00:20:24.759
Like I didn't even realize that there.
00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:27.670
You said there's a national one that's kind of in the works for the us.
00:20:27.835 --> 00:20:28.795
Ad ppa.
00:20:28.795 --> 00:20:29.365
So basically
00:20:29.589 --> 00:20:30.639
didn't even know what was happening.
00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:31.029
Right.
00:20:31.029 --> 00:20:44.139
So, So, um, how, you know, what's your, like, what's the best, like, do you have any suggestions for how our listeners and three of us can try to keep up with the changing landscape and what that means?
00:20:44.170 --> 00:20:53.289
Like then, you know, knowing how or what we should even do to, Yeah, I don't even know, like half the time, I don't know if we need to change anything or.
00:20:54.234 --> 00:20:55.014
That's a good question.
00:20:55.075 --> 00:20:59.004
Um, I'm a member of the International Association of Privacy Professionals.
00:20:59.004 --> 00:21:00.325
It's the I A P P.
00:21:00.565 --> 00:21:02.785
It's a great website, great resource.
00:21:02.964 --> 00:21:04.164
They track a lot of this.
00:21:04.164 --> 00:21:11.274
They have daily emails that come out that are actually very informative and do provide updates to these sorts of things, right?
00:21:11.274 --> 00:21:13.914
So ccpa, Syra, ad ppa.
00:21:13.974 --> 00:21:18.984
Virginia, I mean, all these different states that, you know, it's, again, the landscape is changing all the time.
00:21:19.285 --> 00:21:26.815
The good thing about the I E P P is that, um, there a lot of the folks that are running it, uh, have a lot of email experience as well.
00:21:26.815 --> 00:21:32.754
There's a, uh, there's another group called the E P C, the, um, email Sender Provider coalition.
00:21:32.994 --> 00:21:38.424
Really f a lot of ESP marketing automation providers provide insight into more of the compliance side.
00:21:38.724 --> 00:21:41.815
And so there's a lot of those individuals that are also on the I A P.
00:21:41.815 --> 00:21:42.204
So that's a.
00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:44.000
Um, great website.
00:21:44.004 --> 00:21:47.539
You definitely could plug the cyber data, uh, Cyber Data Pros blog.
00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:50.899
We, we definitely are posting about CPR ad ppa.
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:55.430
Um, again, those are the, there's things that are happening all around.
00:21:55.430 --> 00:22:05.660
And so, you know, Michael, you asked a very good question of, you know, how do you, how do you kind of work with the individuals at your company as well to make sure that everybody's aware of this or who are some resources?
00:22:06.049 --> 00:22:10.690
And I often say, You, you always have to involve legal and compliance, right?
00:22:10.690 --> 00:22:18.519
You know, lawyers are, they think that they know all the laws and know what's happening, but at least having their insight and their, and their inputs, it is valuable.
00:22:18.849 --> 00:22:22.509
Um, I also like to have round tables of what I like to call a risk council.
00:22:22.514 --> 00:22:30.430
So a risk council for a company would be somebody from sales, somebody from marketing, somebody that's working with a client, legal compliance in it, right?
00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:34.629
You get those individuals around a table and you start to talk about these things.
00:22:34.750 --> 00:22:36.339
Hey, do we have a data mapping?
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:43.559
Um, diagram that shows how the data flows from Marketo to Salesforce to sap, to all these things.
00:22:43.710 --> 00:22:44.819
Where does the data sit?
00:22:45.059 --> 00:22:45.660
You know, you're right.
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.089
Mike is our, is our AWS data center?
00:22:48.089 --> 00:22:52.440
Is it in the Northern Virginia region or is it somewhere in, you know, Brazil, Right?
00:22:52.649 --> 00:22:53.579
Those sorts of things.
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:58.529
You get those topics going and then you start to identify what really applies to you.
00:22:58.529 --> 00:22:58.859
Right.
00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:00.420
Does CCPA apply to you?
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.019
Right.
00:23:01.049 --> 00:23:02.819
You may or May or may not, right?
00:23:03.029 --> 00:23:04.740
I started talking about AD ppa.
00:23:05.105 --> 00:23:13.744
Which definitely focuses more on, again, the, the rights of the individuals in the United States, again, about not having their data sold or shared with third parties.
00:23:13.744 --> 00:23:19.174
And so, um, lots of areas to keep up, but I always recommend the I A P P to keep up with that information.
00:23:19.375 --> 00:23:27.414
So I think it's interesting you brought up the word, you know, I think you just said risk council or, but the, I was kind of in right before you said that.
00:23:27.414 --> 00:23:42.504
I was like, when you said attorneys and, um, I've, I've been lucky enough to have had good attorneys at most of the places I've worked at where I think they, they're, um, do the, the counselor part of being an attorney as opposed to, you know, saying no to everything.
00:23:42.504 --> 00:23:51.414
But I mean, do you think it's, do you think, um, Because I think it's a challenge to try to keep up with all this stuff and to make sure that you're coming into compliance with everything.
00:23:51.414 --> 00:23:58.315
And truth be told, there's a part of me that suspects that if you comply with some stuff in one place, you're not complying somewhere else.
00:23:58.315 --> 00:23:58.704
Right.
00:23:59.274 --> 00:24:08.184
So I mean, do you think of, think our, our companies should be thinking about this and our list should be thinking about this in a risk, kind of what's our risk tolerance level?
00:24:08.184 --> 00:24:08.484
Right.
00:24:08.484 --> 00:24:11.904
In terms of, cuz there's, there's a cost to complying 100.
00:24:13.164 --> 00:24:13.404
Right.
00:24:13.404 --> 00:24:21.535
So is is, is that the kind of thought process you encourage people to go through, or do you simply say like, truly you have to comply?
00:24:21.894 --> 00:24:22.134
Right.
00:24:22.494 --> 00:24:23.785
Letter of the law kind of thing.
00:24:24.144 --> 00:24:24.744
Good question.
00:24:24.744 --> 00:24:30.474
I've worked with a lot of clients that have said, you know, listen, we comply with GDPR across the board.
00:24:30.684 --> 00:24:32.484
Everything is explicit opt in.
00:24:32.815 --> 00:24:38.274
Everything is stored safely and securely with no data, or we are minimizing our data.
00:24:38.605 --> 00:24:41.545
We have the, the ability to, for the right to be forgotten.
00:24:41.785 --> 00:24:42.924
All of those kinds of things.
00:24:42.924 --> 00:24:43.224
Right.
00:24:43.224 --> 00:24:46.555
So I would say that's a, that's kind of like.
00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:51.190
It's, That's a revenue killing thought, right?
00:24:51.190 --> 00:24:55.329
Because if you think about that, okay, we're gonna comply with the strictest law across the board.
00:24:55.599 --> 00:24:58.569
Well, again, that law is very strict in the eu Right?
00:24:58.569 --> 00:24:59.440
But in the US.
00:24:59.964 --> 00:25:01.644
It's not as tight, it's not as strict.
00:25:01.644 --> 00:25:02.875
So we have other opportunities.
00:25:02.875 --> 00:25:04.674
We have other things that are available to us.
00:25:04.674 --> 00:25:10.254
And so I think having a, again, thinking about your risk tolerance level, you look at Facebook, right?
00:25:10.254 --> 00:25:16.644
I believe Facebook, uh, they, they have$200 million in their budget that they keep aside for lawsuits.
00:25:16.944 --> 00:25:18.535
And so they just know they're gonna be sued.
00:25:18.535 --> 00:25:23.694
And so instead of complying with what's right, they just say, Hey, we know we're gonna have, we know we're gonna have lawsuits.
00:25:23.694 --> 00:25:24.984
We anticipate this much.
00:25:25.134 --> 00:25:25.974
It's in our budget.
00:25:26.625 --> 00:25:33.254
Well, they could, they could even be like in good faith trying to comply, but someone still is going to, I mean, they're deep pocket, so like
00:25:33.384 --> 00:25:33.714
Yeah.
00:25:33.744 --> 00:25:34.345
Deep pockets.
00:25:34.404 --> 00:25:36.504
And, and they have, they have data on everybody, right?
00:25:36.504 --> 00:25:39.355
So if you think about the data that they have, it's definitely a lot more.
00:25:39.355 --> 00:25:39.954
But I, I agree.
00:25:39.954 --> 00:25:48.414
I think that coming together as a team, sales, marketing, it, compliance, legal, uh, and, and somebody who definitely works with clients on a regular basis.
00:25:48.414 --> 00:25:49.825
It could be also so many marketing.
00:25:50.184 --> 00:25:56.204
Think about, um, you know, again, tolerance levels, what's you're willing to risk, you're willing to take, but.
00:25:56.910 --> 00:25:59.639
Uh, just make sure that you're up to speed on what's relevant for you.
00:25:59.639 --> 00:25:59.970
Right?
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:02.819
I talked to clients and they're like, We don't send any emails to Canada.
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:03.420
Okay?
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:07.019
So you don't have to worry about these things, but you have to worry about these other four things.
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:09.149
So think about what's really relevant to you.
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:17.399
And, and, and it also baffles me, the clients and the marketers that have stopped sending to Europe because they're like, We don't wanna comply with gdpr.
00:26:17.730 --> 00:26:23.609
So you're willing to give up 30% of revenue from the past year because you don't want to comply with so,
00:26:25.825 --> 00:26:28.884
It's, Yeah, I mean, that, that's the trade off, right?
00:26:28.884 --> 00:26:30.865
So, Okay.
00:26:30.865 --> 00:26:31.524
So
00:26:31.615 --> 00:26:32.724
went really wide.
00:26:32.964 --> 00:26:35.125
It's all for the listeners, so I was like, Oh,
00:26:35.754 --> 00:26:37.855
no, but I, I think that's really important, right?
00:26:37.855 --> 00:26:42.055
Is the, that gets back to what is your tolerance for the risk associated with.
00:26:43.984 --> 00:26:53.724
Yeah, I like, I don't think any of us would encourage truly, um, truly like bad behavior that is intentionally flouting the law.
00:26:54.204 --> 00:26:54.865
Right, Right.
00:26:54.984 --> 00:27:06.744
I don't think any us at the same time, I think there's probably enough gray area there where there's some, some room, but it, that's where you go to get into, you know, are you willing to take the risk?
00:27:06.744 --> 00:27:08.365
Are you willing to set aside some money?
00:27:08.365 --> 00:27:09.085
Should the you.
00:27:10.134 --> 00:27:12.085
Something come up when you get flagged or whatever.
00:27:12.684 --> 00:27:37.615
So you, you brought up the, um, like complying with GDPR globally so that, So I've, I've worked at, um, the last two places where I've been one in which, uh, simply because, and this was more my dis my direction was comply with the most restrictive sort of opt in, uh, or at least, you know, try to capture explicit opt in.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:42.519
Not necessarily use, apply it the same when we went outbound, right?
00:27:42.524 --> 00:27:47.710
So if we were getting that for people in the us, we would still sort of make sure that we were in line with CAN spam.
00:27:48.399 --> 00:27:57.490
Um, but, and then where I'm at now, uh, the standard globally is to be very country specific, right?
00:27:57.490 --> 00:28:01.559
So someone's filling out a form, right, based on what country they like, what they're presented.
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:05.799
Then in terms of opt in or acknowledgement kind of stuff, message.
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:07.990
Changes dynamically.
00:28:08.440 --> 00:28:23.349
So, and I'm sure there's other variations of, of that, but you know, when you're talking to clients, is this like, is this another part of the risk reward or risk tolerance conversation, or do you ever actually have a recommendation on, you know, how people should approach that
00:28:23.815 --> 00:28:24.355
Sure.
00:28:24.414 --> 00:28:24.595
Yeah.
00:28:24.595 --> 00:28:31.164
And if you, if I were to put my deliverability hat on, right, it's all about explicit opt in or double opt in would be great, because again, you're getting a clean.
00:28:31.974 --> 00:28:35.154
With only individuals that wanna receive your email, right?
00:28:35.154 --> 00:28:39.085
You're, you're not gonna be getting those hard bounces, you're not gonna be hitting those traps.
00:28:39.085 --> 00:28:41.305
You're not gonna be, you know, getting on block lists.
00:28:41.305 --> 00:28:41.545
Right?
00:28:41.545 --> 00:28:43.194
Of course, your list is a lot smaller.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:46.990
But again, upper management is always concerned about how big is our list?
00:28:46.990 --> 00:28:50.019
We need our list bigger, we need to enrich it, we need to do this right?
00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:51.129
We need to expand it.
00:28:51.490 --> 00:28:58.899
Uh, and so having that, that tight list makes it easy for getting to, into the inbox, making sure that people actually wanna receive it.
00:28:59.230 --> 00:29:03.789
Uh, again, cutting down on bounces traps, uh, block lists, complaints, things like that.
00:29:04.149 --> 00:29:11.589
So if you think about it from an overall perspective, um, you know, regional variations could be, uh, it's, it's a lot of.
00:29:12.774 --> 00:29:15.504
But it could be, you know, again, more reward, right?
00:29:15.504 --> 00:29:23.934
Because again, if you're, if you have a GDPR approach to everything in the world, you're in the us, you don't have to do that, but you're kind of cutting out maybe.
00:29:24.954 --> 00:29:29.724
10%, 20% of your revenue because you are so tight on your list.
00:29:29.994 --> 00:29:34.615
And so again, it's, it's a risk tolerance, risk reward type approach that what work, what makes sense, right?
00:29:34.615 --> 00:29:36.565
Because Michael, we've always been to those forms.
00:29:36.954 --> 00:29:38.214
You're filling out your name and all that.
00:29:38.214 --> 00:29:39.414
You have to choose your country.
00:29:39.805 --> 00:29:42.884
When you choose us, there's no checkbox, right?
00:29:43.014 --> 00:29:46.704
But if you were to choose like France or Spain, there's the check box.
00:29:46.704 --> 00:29:50.065
So it's like, how, how, how tight do you wanna be on those forms?
00:29:50.214 --> 00:29:52.075
And how tight do you really wanna be with your list?
00:29:53.129 --> 00:29:55.180
Yeah, it seems like the obvious trade off is.
00:29:56.664 --> 00:30:19.375
Much more sort of complicated implementation and effort to, to maintain, uh, yeah, it is, uh, but potentially ability to, to communicate more broadly with a larger number of people in more countries versus one that's a little relatively simple to manage and operate, but then you're sort of shrinking your potential pool of audience,
00:30:19.734 --> 00:30:20.305
Correct.
00:30:20.785 --> 00:30:23.244
um, to, It's an interesting one.
00:30:23.244 --> 00:30:24.714
I, and I still don't know what I.
00:30:26.289 --> 00:30:28.539
I still don't know which one I like better, so
00:30:28.644 --> 00:30:30.055
it's a lot of trade offs, right?
00:30:30.055 --> 00:30:38.424
It's like, you know, depending upon, you know, again, depending upon things like, uh, the buying cycle, depending upon, again, how prevalent is the EU in your database?
00:30:38.424 --> 00:30:39.835
Where are you going after, right?
00:30:39.954 --> 00:30:41.004
What's your main audience?
00:30:41.305 --> 00:30:48.595
That's how some of the, you know, conversations kind of start and then you focus and say, it is worth the lift to do this or just have this approach.
00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:49.990
Yeah.
00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:52.990
Let's circle back to.
00:30:53.899 --> 00:30:56.920
email deliverability more like specifically.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:02.049
Uh, so, so we, we, you touched on this a little bit, right?
00:31:02.049 --> 00:31:14.109
So, uh, there's not, we, we, as, as marketers and marketing ops professionals and our listeners, we may have limited amount of visibility into, you know, what's happening with emails that we're sending.
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:21.700
What, like what do you recommend, uh, as tools to help, you know, monitor deliverability related.
00:31:22.914 --> 00:31:33.954
Uh, reputation is obviously one I think would be in the list, but what other things out there that you recommend and, um, Yeah, or maybe even other best practices,
00:31:34.389 --> 00:31:34.930
Sure.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:43.480
It's a great question and I always say, Of course the best data that you can get, you know, without using any third party tool is just within your marketing automation platform, right?
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:49.210
So I always recommend people, people always pay, pay attention to things like opens and clicks and conversions.
00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:57.339
You know, look at things like unsubscribes, look at the complaints, read the bounce logs, read the bounce logs, the bounce details say so much.
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:58.750
And for me, like.
00:32:00.115 --> 00:32:07.644
Highly entertaining because you'll see, again, if you're sending B2B mail, any mail, server admin can write whatever bounce message they want, right?
00:32:07.644 --> 00:32:13.704
So if you're sending to an educational institution, it may say, you know, your email's blocked because Sally is no longer here.
00:32:13.710 --> 00:32:16.914
Please contact the IT guy, his name is this, right?
00:32:17.065 --> 00:32:20.789
And, and sometimes you even see things like, Exhaustive curse words.
00:32:21.059 --> 00:32:23.609
Uh, so it makes it highly entertaining to read some of those bounces.
00:32:23.609 --> 00:32:29.879
So I, I, I love a good bounce log read on a, on a Friday night, Michael, with a bottle of wine, reading some good bounce logs.
00:32:29.879 --> 00:32:30.599
Nothing's better.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:32.279
you know, take it from me.
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:38.500
So, um, You know that that's a good place to start, um, and baseline and deliverability, right?
00:32:38.529 --> 00:32:42.879
So I always say make a baseline and, and look at those performance metrics, right?
00:32:42.970 --> 00:32:44.559
Are you getting into your key accounts?
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:45.609
If not, why?
00:32:45.819 --> 00:32:46.029
Right?
00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:47.829
Are you sending too much too fast?
00:32:47.829 --> 00:32:53.740
Which again, if you're sending 5,000 to a small B2B domain, it looks like a male server attack, right?
00:32:53.799 --> 00:32:54.339
The the server.
00:32:54.940 --> 00:32:55.539
Hey, stop.
00:32:55.539 --> 00:32:57.009
You're sitting too, too much, too fast.
00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:58.569
I'm gonna bounce you, I'm gonna block you.
00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:01.450
I'm gonna do something with your mail, not getting into the inbox.
00:33:01.450 --> 00:33:02.529
So look at those key accounts.
00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:03.789
Your top 25 accounts.
00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:04.809
Are you getting opens?
00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:05.410
Are you getting clicks?
00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:06.279
What's happening there?
00:33:06.670 --> 00:33:12.399
Um, I use a tool, uh, you know, very familiar with Inbox Monster, uh, Inbox Monster.
00:33:12.404 --> 00:33:14.559
You, they do it's seed testing tools.
00:33:14.875 --> 00:33:21.474
Spam trap monitoring, block list monitoring, demark monitoring designer tools, all of that stuff in there together.
00:33:21.474 --> 00:33:29.785
So you can actually start to see how does my inbox placement look at Outlook or Google Workspace or Office 365, uh, coverage in Europe and Asia too as well.
00:33:29.785 --> 00:33:32.615
So if you're sending to those ISPs, you can see that as well.
00:33:33.134 --> 00:33:35.355
Lot of B2B coverage, filtering coverage.
00:33:35.595 --> 00:33:43.994
It's, it's great sort of tool to kind of show, uh, hey, here's what's happening now let's figure out how to mediate this, and then let's look at it after the fact.
00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:44.174
Right?
00:33:44.174 --> 00:33:54.254
So cleaning up all of that data, um, and, and one tool also that I use, especially as it relates to, you know, those key accounts or any, any sort of domains that I'm curious.
00:33:54.984 --> 00:34:00.174
There's a tool called X N d.com, so X-ray Nancy, Nancy david.com.
00:34:00.535 --> 00:34:09.085
X n and d.com has a domain, uh, performance at the top that you can actually type in any domain that you want and it will show you the MX servers.
00:34:09.414 --> 00:34:15.805
And those MX servers will often say things like Mine, Proofpoint, Google Workspace, Office 365.
00:34:15.805 --> 00:34:20.514
So you could start to see like, Hey, I'm trying to get into these top 10 accounts, and they're all proof.
00:34:21.235 --> 00:34:22.825
Maybe we have a problem at Proofpoint.
00:34:22.825 --> 00:34:24.715
Let's actually start to dig in and figure that out.
00:34:24.715 --> 00:34:33.055
Looking at the bounces, right, there's, there's forms you can fill out on a lot of these filter sites like Proofpoint, like Barracuda, like Office 365.
00:34:33.055 --> 00:34:38.545
You can fill out a form and they'll get back to you to say their blocks removed or everything looks fine, right?
00:34:38.550 --> 00:34:42.295
So using the tools that are available that are out there for the filtering.
00:34:43.120 --> 00:34:46.390
For these B2B companies, for ISPs, they're free.
00:34:46.450 --> 00:34:47.800
Use them, they're great.
00:34:48.070 --> 00:34:53.170
Uh, but again, those are some of the tools that I like to use and especially, you know, monitoring deliverability and reputation.
00:34:53.290 --> 00:34:54.040
It's very important.
00:34:56.125 --> 00:35:06.475
So you, you'd shared some of those things with me before and I, I, I have actually used that x n nd now, so a couple of times cuz we are, you know, I get complaints, Sorry.
00:35:07.090 --> 00:35:11.560
Uh, I get informative messages from our sales team about emails not getting to their clients.
00:35:11.620 --> 00:35:24.370
Um, so, uh, you know, and it, it has actually helped identify like, Hey, there's everything on our side looks like it's going through, but so something saw going on in their side most likely that we can't see.
00:35:24.850 --> 00:35:34.885
Um, so you, all those things, like they seem relatively straightforward, but they do seem like, is there a way that, um, like for me, it seems intimidating.
00:35:34.885 --> 00:35:43.465
Like I, I, I've, I've got a report now for one of my eloquent instances where we're, we're monitoring the soft bounce back messages.
00:35:44.005 --> 00:35:48.625
Uh, but truth be told, we get so many right now that I have no time to go through it.
00:35:48.625 --> 00:35:49.625
So I didn't even know like the.
00:35:50.380 --> 00:35:53.620
Are there any, do you have any suggestions of places to go to?
00:35:53.620 --> 00:36:00.760
Like just think about how to approach that kind of, if you've got a high volume of that kind of stuff, like how do you go about that?
00:36:01.180 --> 00:36:11.110
Is there a way like, focus on these messages first, these kinds of messages or codes first, and then, And then, then move on to other ones because it's sounds highly time consuming, right?
00:36:11.110 --> 00:36:13.680
This, there's no automation in this is what it sounds like.
00:36:13.900 --> 00:36:22.570
There's, there's not, but oftentimes, depending upon the bounce message, it will have a link that you can click on that'll take you to the site to fill out a form to get de-listed or for more information.
00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:23.560
So that's very helpful.
00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:25.060
But yeah, that's a great point.
00:36:25.060 --> 00:36:29.110
What I often do, you take the, take the bounces, Let's say they're in Microsoft Excel, right?
00:36:29.110 --> 00:36:31.570
I focus on the actual bounce message itself.
00:36:31.570 --> 00:36:33.970
So what I do is I'll do queries on things.
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.060
Blacklist and block.
00:36:36.150 --> 00:36:38.100
Those are the first two that I look for, right?
00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:42.540
Because those are the first two that's like, okay, quick hits, can I, can I fill out a form?
00:36:42.540 --> 00:36:44.790
Can I do something to keep things moving?
00:36:45.030 --> 00:36:45.390
Right?
00:36:45.540 --> 00:36:50.190
Then I start to like organize the bounces by things like, okay, I'm only looking at soft, right?
00:36:50.190 --> 00:36:53.280
Because I wanna see things that can clear up cuz softer, temporary bounces.
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:58.410
So if there's, um, a DNS issue, if there's maybe mailbox fulls, whatever.
00:36:58.500 --> 00:37:02.940
I'll categorize those, look at the domains and say, Let we have a problem here.
00:37:02.940 --> 00:37:03.720
What segment is.
00:37:04.255 --> 00:37:06.565
Can we clear out these soft bounces and suppress them?
00:37:06.595 --> 00:37:06.925
Right.
00:37:06.925 --> 00:37:15.865
So oftentimes too, and you, you'll notice this, some Mel, some market automation providers, they'll send back a soft bounce That's actually a hard bounce.
00:37:15.870 --> 00:37:22.255
So when you read the message, it can may come back as a soft, but it says, you know, Tony is no longer here at this company.
00:37:22.405 --> 00:37:24.235
You know, please email Dan here.
00:37:24.235 --> 00:37:24.655
Right?
00:37:24.925 --> 00:37:32.245
So the, the, the, uh, Qua Marketo, these systems, they'll try to read it and say, I think it's a hard bounce, but I'm gonna make it a soft bounce.
00:37:32.245 --> 00:37:33.445
So that, that way you.
00:37:33.894 --> 00:37:36.985
Can actually determine it and, and, and suppress it accordingly, Right?
00:37:36.985 --> 00:37:43.795
So oftentimes, you're right, Michael, a lot of the work comes back on you because these systems are trying to classify it right.
00:37:43.795 --> 00:37:44.485
And they can't.
00:37:44.485 --> 00:37:46.825
So they're like, Oh, Michael, you go back and you take a look at it.
00:37:46.825 --> 00:37:47.005
Right?
00:37:47.005 --> 00:37:55.315
Whereas if you're a B2C sender, Gmail, Microsoft, Yahoo, they all have default codes that every me, every ESP know.
00:37:56.200 --> 00:37:59.530
So when it comes back, they know exactly if it's a hard bounce or a soft bounce.
00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:08.260
Again, I always say B2B is much more difficult for the, you know, it's, it's, it's a lot of, lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of manual things that you have to do.
00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:12.310
And again, there, there are tricks and, and tips to kind of do this.
00:38:12.580 --> 00:38:15.100
Um, but yeah, it is manual most of the time.
00:38:17.365 --> 00:38:22.675
I found it, uh, pretty helpful, at least in the HubSpot platform like it.
00:38:23.335 --> 00:38:31.225
Fairly decent job of at least, um, sort of auto suppressing some folks that come through if they've soft bounced too many times.
00:38:31.255 --> 00:38:33.535
Um, they're pretty protective of theirs.
00:38:33.535 --> 00:38:41.275
I, I'm not overly familiar with the other maps, uh, just cuz I haven't gotten too, too deep into the email sending side of things, but
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.300
I think Marketo has something similar.
00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:45.040
At least it's a An option.
00:38:45.445 --> 00:38:45.985
Adoption.
00:38:46.225 --> 00:38:46.765
Yeah.
00:38:47.005 --> 00:38:47.515
Yeah.
00:38:47.605 --> 00:38:48.115
So
00:38:48.175 --> 00:38:48.625
of them do.
00:38:48.625 --> 00:38:49.045
It's like,
00:38:49.045 --> 00:38:49.605
does a pretty good.
00:38:50.125 --> 00:38:54.445
some of'em do, they'll do like, hey, three consecutive soft bounces over the course of three weeks.
00:38:54.445 --> 00:38:54.625
Right.
00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:55.435
We'll suppress it.
00:38:55.435 --> 00:39:03.775
But, you know, it's, it's oftentimes too, again, what a, what a, that soft bounce is something that is really a hard bounce, and so can we take care of it now?
00:39:03.775 --> 00:39:08.425
Versus I always, you know, think about like the door to door vacuum salesperson, right?
00:39:08.425 --> 00:39:12.925
They're coming around like knocking on your door every, every hour, every day, and you're like, Go away.
00:39:12.925 --> 00:39:13.435
Or, I'm calling the.
00:39:14.305 --> 00:39:19.375
Think about that as you're sending to these providers and getting these bounces all the time, these providers are like, Whoa.
00:39:19.525 --> 00:39:21.835
This IP in domain doesn't know when to stop.
00:39:23.455 --> 00:39:24.085
Oh wow.
00:39:24.144 --> 00:39:25.765
Yeah, that's, that, that makes sense.
00:39:25.765 --> 00:39:30.985
I, um, my brain is spitting right now.
00:39:30.990 --> 00:39:31.825
There's so many things.
00:39:32.950 --> 00:39:36.370
Like, I just don't even know where to go next with like all of this conversation.
00:39:37.510 --> 00:39:40.180
All I know is I wanna fix my email deliverability.
00:39:40.185 --> 00:39:40.480
Oh.
00:39:40.485 --> 00:39:40.600
Oh.
00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:47.950
What I was gonna ask you about though was, uh, or just, just sort of say, I'm pretty sure I've seen some tools out in the market.
00:39:47.980 --> 00:39:48.680
Um, I can't think of.
00:39:49.245 --> 00:39:52.815
Top my head, but Naomi, Michael, Chris, maybe you can remember some of them.
00:39:53.235 --> 00:40:04.785
Aren't there tools now that like automatically like read the email, reply and say like, Hey, if Joe is no longer here, you need to contact so and so, Like, it'll sort of help you with that madness.
00:40:04.790 --> 00:40:06.315
I can't remember the name of any of them right
00:40:06.370 --> 00:40:07.300
Sift Rock.
00:40:08.085 --> 00:40:08.775
ah, SIF Rock.
00:40:08.775 --> 00:40:08.985
That's
00:40:09.130 --> 00:40:10.000
I think it's stiff rock.
00:40:10.095 --> 00:40:11.055
Yep, that's the one.
00:40:11.230 --> 00:40:14.050
I know of one other one, but I think it's about to be shutting down so.
00:40:14.685 --> 00:40:15.705
Oh, well then
00:40:16.240 --> 00:40:19.090
Um, but yeah, I, and I've used those.
00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:20.230
I, I think it's great.
00:40:20.260 --> 00:40:23.800
But that's not, it's, it's doing, it's not looking at bounce messages.
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:25.870
It's actually look like monitoring an inbox.
00:40:25.930 --> 00:40:26.320
Right.
00:40:26.410 --> 00:40:32.140
That, so if there are real, if there are replies coming back, At least that's how it worked.
00:40:32.144 --> 00:40:37.000
That, that I'd have, But I thought it was a godsend because Yeah, otherwise they're spinning.
00:40:37.120 --> 00:40:42.610
You know, depending on your volume, you might have any number of auto replies, which is fine, right?
00:40:42.615 --> 00:40:43.900
Out of office stuff, no big deal.
00:40:43.900 --> 00:40:46.810
But if someone actually replies, it says, Take me off your list.
00:40:46.870 --> 00:40:49.450
Going back, going back to compliance, right?
00:40:49.450 --> 00:40:52.870
If you miss that, and even in, even in the US you have what?
00:40:52.900 --> 00:40:53.710
10 days?
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:54.040
10.
00:40:54.100 --> 00:40:54.280
Yep.
00:40:54.280 --> 00:40:55.269
10 business days.
00:40:55.375 --> 00:41:01.255
So, um, you know, it was just, it was a time sink again, kinda manual.
00:41:01.255 --> 00:41:03.835
So just solving that with some technology was great.
00:41:03.835 --> 00:41:04.195
So,
00:41:04.540 --> 00:41:05.050
Mm-hmm.
00:41:07.015 --> 00:41:07.555
so go.
00:41:07.585 --> 00:41:11.185
Going back, So you mentioned B2B being more complicated.
00:41:11.185 --> 00:41:21.715
Like, do you see, and I think, I think most of our listeners are more in, in B2B than b2c, but we actually, like our last episode was actually just about B2C and global.
00:41:22.045 --> 00:41:33.115
So, Um, you know what, you know, are there major differences from the best practices and things you just talked about that apply more to B2B versus B2C or vice versa?
00:41:33.605 --> 00:41:34.265
Great question.
00:41:34.265 --> 00:41:44.255
And I think, you know, especially, you know, over the course of the past few years, uh, you, you look at the number of companies that are using Office 365 that are using Google Workspace, right?
00:41:44.435 --> 00:41:48.575
They're using some of that Gmail filtering though, that Outlook filtering, right?
00:41:48.605 --> 00:41:53.825
And so a lot of those teams are actually starting to sit together and they're learning from each other, whether it be content filter.
00:41:54.415 --> 00:42:01.185
Complaint filtering, fishing, filtering, um, all of those things are, are definitely kind of blurring the line between B2B and b2c.
00:42:01.644 --> 00:42:03.445
I would say more for the B2B sender, right?
00:42:03.445 --> 00:42:09.415
It's the challenge of those other filtering companies, the Cloud Mark, Proofpoint, Barracuda, um, you know, mine cast.
00:42:09.445 --> 00:42:17.275
They're the ones that are actually doing some additional filtering before your email even makes it to Google, even makes it to Office 365, right?
00:42:17.275 --> 00:42:20.095
And those lists, those rules are very complex.
00:42:20.365 --> 00:42:22.795
Um, mine cast has one called newsletter on.
00:42:23.545 --> 00:42:29.695
That if your email contains an unsubscribed link and that flag is turned on, your emails not being delivered to that recipient, right?
00:42:29.695 --> 00:42:31.225
We all know can spam.
00:42:31.225 --> 00:42:32.965
You gotta have that working unsubscribed link.
00:42:33.175 --> 00:42:38.635
And so sometimes you know when filters go wrong, that can be very problematic and challenging for B2B send.
00:42:39.175 --> 00:42:44.905
But if you look at the majority of what's happening in the space, again with Google, with Microsoft, a lot of those individuals that are now using.
00:42:45.894 --> 00:42:48.445
Our experience in some of that same filtering technology, right?
00:42:48.445 --> 00:42:53.755
So we all love that tab inbox when it came out, the focused inbox and Office 365.
00:42:53.755 --> 00:42:57.894
But at the same time, those teams are now starting to sit together and learn from each other.
00:42:57.894 --> 00:43:01.465
And so I think that that's helpful for both B2B and b2c.
00:43:01.975 --> 00:43:06.565
I still think B2B is much more challenging because again, you're sending, you have to send smaller volume.
00:43:06.925 --> 00:43:07.285
Right.
00:43:07.555 --> 00:43:09.955
Gmail will take as many emails as you can throw at it, right?
00:43:09.955 --> 00:43:12.115
It's got millions of mail servers.
00:43:12.355 --> 00:43:19.705
But if you're sending again to like, you know, a small Go Daddy domain, if you're sending to like, somebody maybe has their own mail server sitting in the corner.
00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:22.630
Guys start to think about other things like the volume.
00:43:22.810 --> 00:43:27.460
Volume is big and b2b, it's all about sending small volume.
00:43:27.460 --> 00:43:30.910
So it looks like you're mimicking that sort of B2B conversation, right?
00:43:30.910 --> 00:43:40.900
So thinking about sending out the list over the course of a week, you know, sort throttling over the course of three days, something that you can do to slow down that send, so it doesn't look like you're attacking a mail server.
00:43:42.865 --> 00:43:43.225
Yeah.
00:43:43.495 --> 00:43:43.885
Wow.
00:43:44.065 --> 00:43:58.285
So I feel like we could go on and on and on, but unfortunately I think we're gonna have to, we're gonna have to cut here cuz like, there's like, just in our conversation, it, it popped in my head like it's, there's probably some connection to this between all this stuff we're talking about and the.
00:43:58.990 --> 00:44:02.680
You had the future coming, if it ever gets your of no more third party cookies.
00:44:02.710 --> 00:44:03.070
Right.
00:44:03.100 --> 00:44:06.070
So, um, Cuz like,
00:44:06.070 --> 00:44:08.140
could we have him back and like do another one?
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:09.490
Oh my God.
00:44:10.060 --> 00:44:10.360
Yeah.
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:10.480
I
00:44:10.610 --> 00:44:11.380
I'd love to.
00:44:11.800 --> 00:44:12.550
That'd be awesome.
00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:15.970
sounds, sounds like we need, we need a course for, uh, marketing ops.com.
00:44:16.540 --> 00:44:18.970
Uh, that'd be fantastic, Chris.
00:44:18.970 --> 00:44:20.050
Let's chat about that
00:44:20.095 --> 00:44:20.785
Let's do it.
00:44:22.510 --> 00:44:22.810
Wow.
00:44:22.810 --> 00:44:23.769
So Chris, this is great.
00:44:23.769 --> 00:44:28.780
Any, any last minute thoughts before we wrap up here that we didn't cover that you wanna make sure our listeners here.
00:44:29.290 --> 00:44:32.050
I think it's, it's, you know, like you mentioned, education is important.
00:44:32.050 --> 00:44:34.060
Getting up to speed on what's happening in the space.
00:44:34.060 --> 00:44:35.830
I think staying on top of things is important.
00:44:36.130 --> 00:44:42.010
Baselining what you're sending, baseline deliverability, the data that you have in your market automation platform is gold.
00:44:42.010 --> 00:44:42.580
Use it.
00:44:42.730 --> 00:44:43.660
Read those bounce logs.
00:44:44.185 --> 00:44:48.535
I'm a red wine drinker, red wine on a Friday night reading bounce logs is my idea of fun.
00:44:48.805 --> 00:44:53.905
So, you know, just make sure that you're on top of things, reading the reports, looking at the reputation.
00:44:54.265 --> 00:45:00.295
Um, but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm excited to do this and happy to answer any questions or have, have me, have me on for another one.
00:45:01.135 --> 00:45:01.915
That's fantastic.
00:45:01.915 --> 00:45:08.935
Well, so speaking of answering questions, I suspect we may get lots of people who wanna follow up with you and ask you questions.
00:45:08.935 --> 00:45:10.525
What's the best way for them to do that?
00:45:10.525 --> 00:45:12.415
If they wanna, if they wanna connect or follow?
00:45:12.970 --> 00:45:13.300
Sure.
00:45:13.330 --> 00:45:15.790
Um, LinkedIn, uh, I'm on LinkedIn.
00:45:15.790 --> 00:45:19.780
They, you know, send a message there or, uh, chris@cyberdatapros.com.
00:45:19.780 --> 00:45:20.530
Drop me a note.
00:45:20.560 --> 00:45:23.410
Happy to answer any questions and, you know, look forward to responding to.
00:45:24.010 --> 00:45:24.730
Fantastic.
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:25.180
Chris.
00:45:25.180 --> 00:45:26.050
This has been great.
00:45:26.050 --> 00:45:31.450
And, uh, I can see in Mike's eyes like he's like, What have, what have I not thought of yet?
00:45:31.450 --> 00:45:31.690
Right.
00:45:31.700 --> 00:45:32.050
It
00:45:32.215 --> 00:45:32.605
Mm-hmm.
00:45:32.935 --> 00:45:33.355
Yep.
00:45:33.385 --> 00:45:34.795
That is, that is where my head's at.
00:45:34.795 --> 00:45:37.465
I was like, I think I just implemented a bi me record on.
00:45:38.125 --> 00:45:41.585
So I'm hoping for the best, just waiting for it to refresh on the server.
00:45:41.950 --> 00:45:42.190
there you.
00:45:43.165 --> 00:45:44.095
This real time
00:45:44.144 --> 00:45:44.955
real time
00:45:47.950 --> 00:45:48.400
Anyway.
00:45:48.519 --> 00:45:49.180
Well, so good.
00:45:49.240 --> 00:45:51.430
Well, Chris, thank you again, Naomi.
00:45:51.490 --> 00:45:52.570
Mike, thank you.
00:45:52.570 --> 00:45:54.370
It's always good to have all three of us here.
00:45:54.580 --> 00:45:56.019
You know, it's always makes it interesting.
00:45:56.019 --> 00:46:09.130
So, you know, until next time, uh, we wanna thank all of our listeners as well and continue to give us your feedback, uh, your suggestions for topics or guests, or if you wanna be, uh, a guest, let us know.
00:46:09.685 --> 00:46:20.185
Um, we've got some great ideas looking ahead to 2023, which it's hard to believe since we're recording this in towards the end of September, 2022, but we are already looking ahead that far.
00:46:20.185 --> 00:46:22.675
So everyone thank you.
00:46:22.680 --> 00:46:24.775
Uh, and with that, it's a wrap.
00:46:24.775 --> 00:46:25.435
Bye everyone.
00:46:25.975 --> 00:46:26.394
Right.
00:46:26.700 --> 00:46:27.180
I know.