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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by the Mo Pros powered by marketingops.com.
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If you're not a member already, you should do that.
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Go set up your profile.
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Joining me today is just one of my co-host Mike Rizzo.
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Mike what's the year again.
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It is the year of the Mopro.
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It
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I really, I need to come up with something else.
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I know right.
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To something else, but like it is also the year 2022.
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So you might hear us stop saying that at some point, if you're listening to this years later, cuz this is evergreen content folks.
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you know what the Roman numeral is for 2022?
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This is a how geek?
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X II 2022.
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that's the fact that pops into your head and you visualize that enough to be able to say it to me means you
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Oh, I've thought about this before.
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Oh, okay.
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Okay.
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Got it.
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Yeah, I actually, so I, for our listeners dunno, I'm in a workout group and I had to lead a workout and I tried to make themes out of'em.
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I actually did one based on that.
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So you can ask me about that later.
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that makes sense.
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Yeah.
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Anyway, so sorry to take us off on a tangent, right from the get go, but joining us today is Max Spanier and Max, I probably should have asked, did I pronounce that.
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Yeah.
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Perfect.
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Perfect.
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Max Spanier to help us.
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Thank you.
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Answer the question.
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Why is it so hard to hire marketing apps professionals?
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So Max is the founder and president of Sloan staffing, a recruitment firm that specializes in marketing technology, digital marketing, SAS sales, and technology roles.
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Prior to starting Sloan staffing.
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Max was an enterprise account executive at Marketo.
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Before that he yelled other sales and business development roles at, in interactive, in Sovi digital.
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So Max, thank you for joining us today.
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Much appreciated Mike.
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And am I looking forward to it?
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All right.
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So it, no, we do that intentionally.
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This is like at my house, all like we're all M names and at my house, all my kids are B names and there's three of them.
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So just like this.
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So Max, what you don't know is we soon to be released episode that just happened was just the other side of this, which is how do you find your next.
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In marketing ops with another recruiter.
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So I think this is gonna be fun talking about, so we'll have back to back, we'll have episodes about the two sides of the job market for marketing ops.
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And that's the question we're trying to break down is why is it so hard to hire marketing ops pros?
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So just from a big picture, do you know, are there any like systemic.
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issues or challenges given what you see every day with your clients?
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Go from there.
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No it's a good starting point, Mike really appreciate it.
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From a systemic standpoint, that's a tough word to start with.
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I'm sorry.
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I almost hesitated using that word just because I feel like it's been overused in lots of different contexts lately.
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So I'll use just the Marketo piece to start.
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So I wrote a, I wrote an article a couple weeks ago, just about the total number of Marketo certified experts in the country.
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I think there was 5,800 Marketo CE around the United States.
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And if you look on LinkedIn, there are about 8,000 jobs that require Marketo experience.
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If you think about just the supply and demand piece, that's just one of the four main marketing operations, email marketing tools out there.
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So I think there's a big challenge right now with just the kind of entry point into this space and then the advancement to other roles within marketing operations.
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But they're, I don't know, of highway education.
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I don't know if you've heard about those folks.
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They're doing a really good job.
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Trying to train the entry level person to even get into this position right now.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'm actually glad you brought them up.
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I assumed we would end up talking about them at some point and then no better place than right at the start.
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When you think about trying to get some talent into the market starting off with an incredible program that they've been building alongside a lot of experts in the field actually just received an email from their founder and CEO this morning about some additional ways in which we want to try to work together to make sure more of those graduates find roles and all of those kinds of things.
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Yeah, it's like supply and demand is a massive
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Big issue right now.
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I never would've guessed that just on that Marketo one, there would've been that big of.
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Of a gap between the supply and the demand side.
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Is it, do you think it's, do you think that's an indicator?
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Is that consistent?
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If let's just talk about the major map marketing animation platforms, do you think it's consistent for the, all of them or
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without a doubt with, yeah, without a doubt.
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I personally, Mo majority of our clients are either on Marketo or hubs.
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So obviously they want folks that have that level experience and, ideally they're coming from a company that used that same marketing automation platform.
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So there's no learning curve right out of the gate because you guys know, more than I do.
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If I were to sit in front of Marketo, I wouldn't even know how to log in.
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Even though I worked there for two years being able to just come in and be able to create immediate impact is what a lot of these hiring managers are looking for at the end of the.
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Yeah, they are.
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We talked a little bit about that on the last one too.
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And I think the pallet for, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it, Max, but.
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when you are working.
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I think my question on this is when you're working with clients on trying to staff roles I would imagine, and maybe you could just talk us through some of what that engagement looks like as you're not scoping them for whether or not you can provide value to them, but more like there's a need.
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But are you doing anything to try to help them understand what that real need is or do they come in and you.
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All right.
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Yeah.
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Like you, you think you want this?
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And so we'll see if we can go find
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Yeah what's, it's so funny.
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You brought that up because Mike you introduced me perfectly and I really appreciate it.
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I can't believe you even pronounced my name correctly.
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Not a lot of people are able to do that, but
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It's better to be lucky than good.
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I say.
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so I used to work at Marketo enterprise rep.
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I left because I realized the biggest challenge with B2B organizations.
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Wasn't do I buy Marketo?
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Do I buy a HubSpot?
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Do I.
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Pardot, whatever the case may be.
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I left to start a Mar a recruiting company in this space because the biggest challenge was finding and building a team around those systems to be effective.
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So to answer your question around like the whole piece of scoping work and really digging into these roles, marketing operations is such a broad title.
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Some companies just they just consider marketing operations as an email marketing.
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Some companies think of marketing operations as an analytics person, somebody to oversee six end somebody to work very closely with the sales operations team, somebody to run, email somebody to be the integrations person.
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So it's really multiple positions in one.
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So we're really when we're having these kickoff calls with these organizations.
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It's okay.
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What do you have?
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What are you looking to accomplish and how can this person bridge that gap?
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So this, to me, this begs a couple of questions and I'll probably be guilty as anybody else who's been in a hiring role position.
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So one, I guess is, for those of us who are hiring, are we putting too much stock into that specific platform experience?
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for some roles.
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And then the second one is cuz you did the way you just described what I think we all would tell you is more common than not, or at least more common than we would like to see, which is a role that has so much scope to it.
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That it doesn't feel like it should be just one person.
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Yeah.
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Are we trying to get too much out of one, a person.
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And are they, are we, and are we being too, are we making it harder on ourselves as hiring managers?
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Because we're being so specific about skill sets that we're looking for?
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Yeah.
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In my opinion, it's so it's the biggest challenge that hiring managers are facing is they're not talking to enough candidates to be able to make a justified decision on who they wanna move forward with.
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So yeah, the challenge that we're seeing in these companies is that they're solely relying on inbound resumes to hire somebody or personal relationships or posting something in, in a, in their community, in LinkedIn or whatever the case may be.
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So there, the number of candidates that they're able to, to interview.
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Is very low.
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And then not only that, but the low amount of candidates, if they do find somebody, chances are that person's already interviewing at multiple places.
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So they have to act quick.
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And depending on the size of the company, chances are bigger companies move slow.
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Even some of the smaller companies that we work with move pretty slow as well.
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But I think there's, there's two points.
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There's the not talking to enough candidates.
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And then.
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such a big emphasis just on narrow focus.
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If I want a Marketo person that knows 6 cents, that also knows Tableau that has Salesforce experience.
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Maybe somebody that has HubSpot experience that really wants to get into Marketo or that knows this or that knows that can translate very nicely, could step into the job very quickly versus waiting another three months to have that person.
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So I think then if I'm.
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I'll try to put words in your mouth if I'm gonna play it back to you, is that you're?
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I think you're suggesting indirectly that we as hiring managers should be more open to candidates who maybe don't check all the boxes.
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And maybe I guess this is something that I struggle with how to find this, because I've believe I actually just recently hired somebody.
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Didn't have the experience in the marketing nomination platform we had.
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And I intentionally worked with our recruiters and stuff said, don't I don't know that we'll find that.
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Let's open it up and look for people who have potential right.
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And can learn.
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But that is such a harder thing to do is like, how do you look for people who have that ability to learn are curious wanna know how stuff works and are also interested in it from a marketing kind of domain level.
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I, when I talk to other people in marketing ops who are in the hiring levels, typically when you ask them, what do you look for?
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What do you think distinguishes the best performers from others?
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It's those kinds of things, not their technical skills.
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right.
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Totally.
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Do you have any suggestions how we find that or look for that or test
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yeah.
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At the end of the day, a tool's a tool, right?
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It's the person behind the tool.
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That's going to get you from point a to the desired state.
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I think it really depends on company and the, and what pieces of the puzzle that you currently have in place and be able to interview around that.
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I know.
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Sarah McNamara is famous for this.
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She posts a lot about, content around how not to do take home assignments or SP insure make, make the candidates jump through hoops to grow through interview processes.
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I completely agree with that.
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I also have a sense where you need to have some level of technical conversation with these folks to really dig in, to understand what do they know, what do they not know under, and then create kind of pros and cons lists of each individual.
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Do the pros outweigh the cons absolutely move forward with them.
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If there's hesitation around the technical capabilities, probably not gonna be the right fit for the role.
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Yeah.
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It's it's hard, right?
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Measuring for aptitude around like technical capabilities is one thing.
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But trying to figure out are you curious or are you willing to learn or what have you that's a piece that I think we.
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We as a community are working on alongside you Max, right?
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Where we're all pushing forward on educating leadership and hiring managers who maybe have never staffed for a role like this That those are the things that matter.
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I think you said it just a moment ago, right?
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A tool's a tool.
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If, and in our last episode that we recorded, it was.
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Or one of'em most recently it was around this idea of what's your palette for that, that learning curve, right?
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That ramp up Unfortunately, people start thinking about the need for a marketing operations role.
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Almost way too late.
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Like when something's already broken.
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like it's either it's already broken or they're like, oh, we decided to buy whatever tool and now we need someone to manage that.
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And they're like, so I just need someone to come in and manage that and that like word of advice.
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That's the wrong way to build a stack.
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And we're advocating as a community.
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Sarah is one of those champion voices out there for, Hey, bring them in, bring these folks in
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into the conversation.
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Yeah.
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And let's talk about the go to market motion and the strategy.
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You're saying it yourself, Max, like how do you build a team that supports your go to market your revenue team?
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And then add technology to that.
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and it's be like out of the marketing ops landscape, but adjacent, like we're hiring a rev ops leader for a series C software company out of The Northeast and the person that was in the seat was pretty much an order taker.
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They'd, the SVP, the CRO would say, Hey, let's do this or let's do this, or let's do this.
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But you, the two of, SVPs of sales, aren't Salesforce experts, they're sales process experts.
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They're they know how to get deals done.
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So now they're, they have this system that's completely broken.
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And they're looking for somebody to come in and restructure everything pave the way moving forward on how do we need to set up territory plans?
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How do we need to do this X, Y, Z.
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But if they were to already have that done in the first place, there would've been a lot of time saved on all sides.
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Yeah.
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And it evolves over time, like a series C to have to come in and try to rearchitect probably isn't outside of the norm, frankly.
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Like it happens a lot.
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At least in my experience, we definitely raised a lot of money at the companies I was at in different rounds.
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And unfortunately we had, some people come in and just tinker with tools before they ever got fixed.
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But yeah, you.
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To solve for that problem.
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Ideally, you wanna hire somebody in earlier, rather than later, but it still it still comes down to a fundamental problem of supply and demand and that investment remember like a keyword there, investment in the talent is
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Yeah.
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Sorry, we've been around for over a decade.
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Now, a lot of us, and we know a lot about this idea of what technology can enable an organization at different stages.
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But that those salary ranges, like they're not entry level.
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But there's a reason for that.
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And hiring teams, growing organizations, you need to account for this idea that role is a key, I would argue key component
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to revenue generation.
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to that revenue generation.
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totally.
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Yeah.
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My thought there is they, if those, the CRO VP were are honest, right.
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They probably made a, not a mistake, but they probably thought all we all, we need air quotes.
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All we need is a Salesforce admin.
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And yeah, this probably would be my guess of how they happen.
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Okay.
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So Mike alluded to.
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These job titles and compensation.
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So this is one of my hot button topic issues here is that I, one of the things I see is comes with a couple different flavors.
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One is, one that we already talked about, right?
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Job descriptions that have so much in them that it's like hard to imagine.
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One person could really be successful in doing that.
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The other is inconsistency.
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Or mismatch misalignment of the job title, the scope of the role and then the compensation.
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And and the best example I've seen is, I think there are more and more director level roles and titles out there that I'm seeing, but when you really break'em down, especially I think at earlier stage companies or smart companies, they actually look.
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It's a team of one,
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Senior man.
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Yeah,
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And it's a ti the title's there to get to the comp
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Right.
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More so than anything else.
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And maybe to attract somebody who's a unicorn, but really it's I suspect it's really about the compensation because the, it feels to me like the data that's available to hiring managers and HR people doesn't actually reflect the real market.
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Yeah,
00:16:12.396 --> 00:16:13.896
think that's accurate or
00:16:13.896 --> 00:16:14.286
Yeah.
00:16:14.376 --> 00:16:15.036
I full of it?
00:16:15.396 --> 00:16:17.166
no, abso absolutely.
00:16:17.209 --> 00:16:20.125
I think this is why we started this business three years ago is.
00:16:20.966 --> 00:16:29.245
Internal recruiting teams typically don't have the level of experience because usually there's only a one marketing operations person, two marketing.
00:16:29.515 --> 00:16:34.028
So this isn't like a, account executive role where you need to hire 20 right or 10.
00:16:34.524 --> 00:16:36.582
So it's not like a repetitive thing.
00:16:36.582 --> 00:16:38.949
We're seeing marketing operations manager as a title.
00:16:38.949 --> 00:16:40.779
We're seeing marketing technology specialists.
00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:43.774
It's just so many, there's no uniform, uniformity.
00:16:43.865 --> 00:16:47.794
Is that a word there's no uniform approach around
00:16:48.904 --> 00:16:50.345
If it's, if it wasn't, it is now.
00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:51.039
Yeah.
00:16:52.714 --> 00:16:54.875
there's there's no, this is the title.
00:16:54.875 --> 00:16:56.355
This is the compensation.
00:16:56.376 --> 00:16:59.355
Because I think the people that, the organizations.
00:17:00.775 --> 00:17:02.572
Are willing to invest into it.
00:17:02.603 --> 00:17:13.712
They are they know the importance of it versus, somebody might hire a marketing operations person at a, and want to pay 50 K 60 K.
00:17:13.742 --> 00:17:17.950
But really, they just want somebody just to babysit HubSpot and use like a MailChimp.
00:17:18.985 --> 00:17:26.338
So there's a lot of digging that needs to happen in these interview processes, not only from a candidate standpoint, but from the hiring manager standpoint.
00:17:27.284 --> 00:17:27.614
Yeah.
00:17:27.614 --> 00:17:30.079
And it's it's a chicken and egg problem, right?
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.950
Like when you don't know what you don't know.
00:17:34.894 --> 00:17:38.867
Sometimes, depending on who's asking for the hire, right?
00:17:38.917 --> 00:17:42.937
Sometimes they don't realize that there's going to be a need very rapidly.
00:17:42.961 --> 00:17:45.151
You can hire a junior marketing ops person.
00:17:45.151 --> 00:17:49.740
Maybe they are curious enough to come in and figure some stuff out and build something of value.
00:17:50.221 --> 00:17:51.721
But you don't know that.
00:17:52.185 --> 00:17:59.026
What's gonna rapidly come up is some sort of standardization of the, like the way the data needs to move through your system.
00:17:59.266 --> 00:18:02.168
And this person has no concept of like how to do that yet.
00:18:02.168 --> 00:18:03.098
And that's perfectly all right.
00:18:03.104 --> 00:18:14.551
If you've got somebody that can figure it out, but if you don't know that's coming down the pike really quickly, you're gonna not know that you wanna look for that skill or that talent or hire that level.
00:18:15.701 --> 00:18:16.511
At the start.
00:18:16.572 --> 00:18:25.212
So now you've made a hire who isn't quite equipped with the skills or the background or the experience to go solve the next challenges that are coming down, down the line.
00:18:25.722 --> 00:18:28.633
And you're a little bit frustrated cause you're like, darn it.
00:18:28.703 --> 00:18:29.723
This is gonna go slower.
00:18:29.742 --> 00:18:30.373
What are we gonna do?
00:18:30.702 --> 00:18:31.242
Guess what?
00:18:31.242 --> 00:18:32.502
You end up hiring a consultant.
00:18:32.521 --> 00:18:32.731
I
00:18:32.946 --> 00:18:34.846
all the consultants out there are like, you hire me.
00:18:35.251 --> 00:18:35.701
Yeah.
00:18:35.701 --> 00:18:35.912
Yeah.
00:18:35.912 --> 00:18:46.089
I always push for the higher level person because you're gonna get, a lot more, but again, hiring managers have a budget, they have a CMO, that's saying, Hey, this is what we can spend.
00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:50.500
This is what we can invest because we have X amount of other hires that need to happen.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:19:00.009
But we have a lot of organizations that're working with that they're flexible and they just wanna see the best talent on the market, the rate that they're looking for and allows them to make that decision.
00:19:03.694 --> 00:19:03.984
Yeah.
00:19:03.984 --> 00:19:05.154
Oh, that's an interesting point.
00:19:05.154 --> 00:19:08.518
I was just, from an overall marketing team, there's a, probably a.
00:19:08.748 --> 00:19:12.857
Head count that goes across all the different disciplines.
00:19:13.697 --> 00:19:17.897
So can you think this is totally off script here?
00:19:17.958 --> 00:19:37.810
Not that we have a script, but just I'm going into a little different direction, but if you, are you seeing anything in terms of organizations on how let's say they have multiple roles to fill in marketing and they don't necessarily know the priority order or where they should, know, where they're gonna need to put more money into it versus somewhere else?
00:19:37.868 --> 00:19:44.985
think of it, like when we remodeled our house, we decided we're gonna spend extra on, the tile and the bathroom and the kitchen, because that's where it's gonna pay off.
00:19:44.985 --> 00:19:47.568
But it, in the somewhere else, we're not right.
00:19:47.574 --> 00:19:49.009
We're, we'll just do basic stuff.
00:19:49.038 --> 00:20:01.723
It's are you seeing organizations think about all of that across the marketing function from a way they budget for head count, especially when they're adding in a way like that, where they say, okay, we've got X amount of money and we're.
00:20:02.864 --> 00:20:07.003
We're gonna allocate it as best we can to get the best people in the most important positions first.
00:20:07.076 --> 00:20:11.149
This brings up a, I have a client of ours in the Boston area security software.
00:20:11.690 --> 00:20:14.210
They just have a handful of roles they need to hire.
00:20:14.660 --> 00:20:18.261
And for them, a lot of the approval's already done, quarter by quarter.
00:20:18.261 --> 00:20:20.807
So every, couple quarters they say, we're gonna hire this amount.
00:20:20.807 --> 00:20:21.916
And this is the budget that we have.
00:20:22.366 --> 00:20:28.636
And because hiring is so challenging right now, they're not necessarily thinking let's prioritize this over this.
00:20:28.636 --> 00:20:30.346
They're trying to prioritize the best hire.
00:20:31.192 --> 00:20:32.402
For that given position.
00:20:32.461 --> 00:20:36.422
And if it's the marketing operations person first, great, let's bring'em on.
00:20:36.841 --> 00:20:57.039
If it's the communications person, if it's the demand gem person, whatever the case may be, they want the right person for the job because they're all, all the clients that were working with are very fast growing organizations and they know that, there, there was an investment event and that money is to fund growth and growth is fund, fueled by people.
00:20:57.444 --> 00:21:04.194
So if they find that perfect person, the demand gem person, even though they need to hire a marketing operations person as well, they need to bring that person on.
00:21:04.555 --> 00:21:08.394
Otherwise they might not have that person for another three to six months,
00:21:10.444 --> 00:21:10.774
I get it.
00:21:10.774 --> 00:21:11.014
Yeah.
00:21:11.014 --> 00:21:12.514
So they're prioritizing,
00:21:13.524 --> 00:21:14.454
the right hire
00:21:14.561 --> 00:21:24.719
Like They're thinking like I, I'd rather hire, spend more and hire the best person I can right now, cuz they're probably gonna be able to do more than what we're asking for them to do really the role.
00:21:24.734 --> 00:21:29.774
And then we'll move on to the next one and try to do the same thing and kinda keep that ball rolling as they're.
00:21:29.805 --> 00:21:30.134
Okay.
00:21:30.914 --> 00:21:31.744
That's an interesting one.
00:21:31.814 --> 00:21:33.205
My head is wrapping my head.
00:21:33.235 --> 00:21:34.600
I'm going around to circles here a little bit.
00:21:34.631 --> 00:21:34.840
Okay.
00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:43.651
So now it's an area that I hadn't thought about as I think I, I do think be just to another total side, I think.
00:21:44.221 --> 00:21:59.933
One of the things I think at least some marketing apps pro people are good at is being creative with the budgets they've got, including it might be if they're like a hiring manager being how they allocate that towards roles that they might get to fill or not, or that versus consultants.
00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:02.862
Mixing that and trying to adjust as the budget might get shifted.
00:22:03.402 --> 00:22:23.616
But I'm curious, are you seeing, this is a total aside, are you seeing many of of your clients where they're looking at marketing ops as doing some additional things that I think of as it could easily become a more of a chief of staff for the marketing org role kind of roles where it's got, maybe they're helping with budgeting overall for marketing, they're helping with the quarterly planning, annual
00:22:23.817 --> 00:22:25.057
that's super interesting.
00:22:25.176 --> 00:22:25.596
yeah,
00:22:26.271 --> 00:22:35.449
you, we talk, I think you and I side bared this a couple months ago and I haven't seen, I think I haven't seen the chief of staff in the marketing function yet.
00:22:35.689 --> 00:22:37.037
I do think it's coming.
00:22:37.037 --> 00:22:53.845
The, I think a lot of that responsibility is notoriously with the VP and the CMO and, They need, they know they need this, but wouldn't it be great if there was somebody that knew about all the tools and the value that it can bring and they'd come to the executive team and say, we need the, we need this because of this.
00:22:53.845 --> 00:22:54.835
And this is the budget.
00:22:54.835 --> 00:22:55.764
And here we go.
00:22:56.365 --> 00:23:02.737
So I think, I think we talked about it two months ago before I went on my trip, but I think it's coming, it's not here yet,
00:23:02.811 --> 00:23:03.201
Yeah.
00:23:03.295 --> 00:23:05.917
I'm not seeing it consistently either, but I see it here and there.
00:23:07.163 --> 00:23:10.160
It was mostly at larger organizations, which makes sense.
00:23:10.170 --> 00:23:24.059
But I see, it feels like I'm seeing it a little more often and it may not be college chief of staff, but those that sort of helping with the budget and the planning across the marketing organization is something I'm seeing and maybe project management, things like that.
00:23:24.070 --> 00:23:24.174
I,
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:25.779
The U the utility player.
00:23:25.785 --> 00:23:27.129
What do you call that in baseball?
00:23:27.129 --> 00:23:27.349
The
00:23:27.376 --> 00:23:27.916
That's it.
00:23:27.916 --> 00:23:28.606
I think utility
00:23:28.636 --> 00:23:29.656
I think it's a utility player.
00:23:29.656 --> 00:23:30.626
Yeah, actually
00:23:30.626 --> 00:23:32.949
Says the guy with the big football Jersey behind him.
00:23:33.594 --> 00:23:36.228
I, we have a guy here who's a D one baseball player.
00:23:36.232 --> 00:23:39.077
I've never watched a full nine innings of baseball in my whole entire life.
00:23:39.077 --> 00:23:40.716
So I can't believe I got that reference,
00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:41.470
that's awesome.
00:23:41.899 --> 00:23:44.990
I've seen this conversation come up before though.
00:23:45.061 --> 00:23:48.091
Or maybe I've just had it anecdotally or something,
00:23:48.172 --> 00:23:49.251
Probably with Michael probably,
00:23:49.456 --> 00:23:51.476
It could have been with Michael, but
00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:54.820
sure what that says about me, that I keep bringing up the same, five things
00:23:55.016 --> 00:24:06.658
no, I actually, I think it was with one of my, one of my mentors, which CEO of stack Moxie, she and I have spoken a number of times over the years and we talked about her org structure and the way that she thinks about things.
00:24:07.048 --> 00:24:11.249
And we were just riffing on this idea of like where marketing operations sits in general.
00:24:11.969 --> 00:24:14.348
And and one of the, I think it was with her.
00:24:14.874 --> 00:24:20.814
If I recall correctly, but we were talking about how marketing operations could fundamentally own like the budgets.
00:24:20.844 --> 00:24:24.829
And I said what is, you mean like demand gen budgets too, like ad spend and stuff.
00:24:24.829 --> 00:24:26.349
It's yeah, absolutely.
00:24:26.889 --> 00:24:27.855
And it makes sense.
00:24:27.855 --> 00:24:36.495
Like when, if you, they might not say how much money needs to be spent, but they could at least have oversight on where is it going right now?
00:24:36.495 --> 00:24:37.605
How is that going?
00:24:37.605 --> 00:24:40.905
And how does that get reported back to the teams that are running those budgets?
00:24:41.326 --> 00:24:42.445
Really interesting.
00:24:42.451 --> 00:24:44.010
What's interesting about that too.
00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:45.181
How many clients?
00:24:45.181 --> 00:24:49.891
I know Mike, you've done a lot of work and HubSpot for different organizations in your career.
00:24:49.943 --> 00:24:51.834
How many companies have you walked into?
00:24:52.253 --> 00:25:00.354
And there's so much tech and nobody knows what it's doing or where it's integrated to, or how you're using it, or how many processes around it.
00:25:01.118 --> 00:25:04.538
So how much money do you think is wasted on a yearly basis?
00:25:04.597 --> 00:25:06.070
You started the conversation.
00:25:06.070 --> 00:25:07.691
I used to work at ion interactive.
00:25:07.691 --> 00:25:11.213
The, one of the C the CTO was Scott Brinker who created the super graphic.
00:25:11.604 --> 00:25:20.007
So when I first started at ion it, there was 200 MarTech platforms back in 20 14, 20 15.
00:25:20.426 --> 00:25:25.359
Now there's 3000, 2000 who knows the updated version.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:26.019
Whenever it
00:25:26.184 --> 00:25:26.754
I think it's
00:25:26.800 --> 00:25:27.161
it was like
00:25:27.685 --> 00:25:29.125
I think they're edging eight.
00:25:29.185 --> 00:25:29.516
Yeah.
00:25:29.516 --> 00:25:31.346
I think they're edging eight or 9,000
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:41.756
how much, think of, if you had to just give a rough estimate in your head, I couldn't even tell you, but how much MarTech is bought in marketing at high growth companies.
00:25:41.756 --> 00:25:45.205
And is it really being used or is it to the most effect?
00:25:45.415 --> 00:25:45.836
Probably.
00:25:45.895 --> 00:25:46.586
Probably not.
00:25:46.588 --> 00:25:47.737
And I had met a big company.
00:25:47.737 --> 00:26:00.846
I we're in the process and I'm actually just in a business unit of a big company and it, and just within ours, we're starting to consolidate small sort of small chunks of marketing tech into my budget just to make sure it's all in one place, cuz it was scary to I.
00:26:00.916 --> 00:26:07.139
This is gonna be a slap in the face to all my friends who are like I'll call them, like marketers, demand gen and stuff like that.
00:26:07.139 --> 00:26:12.249
But my experience has been, they're actually not that great at managing budgets.
00:26:12.296 --> 00:26:13.692
They're good about thinking about right.
00:26:13.722 --> 00:26:13.932
Okay.
00:26:13.932 --> 00:26:15.232
How much do I need to spend?
00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:16.230
Where should I spend it?
00:26:16.230 --> 00:26:20.039
But then the actual keeping track of it, where are we?
00:26:20.069 --> 00:26:21.877
What do we have left in, to spend.
00:26:22.478 --> 00:26:27.269
Yeah, what are we gonna do if we get, get asked to cut or add, or do you know, shift priorities, right?
00:26:27.269 --> 00:26:35.610
That is that's something I think doesn't most of the marketers I know have not, that's not a natural thing that they seem to be really good at.
00:26:35.673 --> 00:26:35.822
But
00:26:35.822 --> 00:26:36.903
like holistically,
00:26:37.083 --> 00:26:37.623
yeah,
00:26:37.833 --> 00:26:38.103
right?
00:26:38.103 --> 00:26:42.910
Like in the platform itself it's as a demand gen and I hate using that term
00:26:43.389 --> 00:26:43.509
I
00:26:43.664 --> 00:27:12.000
demand gen is so much more than paid but for those paid, marketers out there that are managing those things, like in those platforms, You're doing a tremendous job of like constantly updating, I wanna focus on the CPL, the, all of those conversion rates, but like holistically thinking about it, across the board, you end up getting into a place where you need an operations person to pull back all that data so that you can analyze, where the spend should go next.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.329
Or if, to your point, like if something was to be cut back.
00:27:16.035 --> 00:27:17.355
How do you know where to cut back?
00:27:17.374 --> 00:27:18.167
All those kinds of things.
00:27:20.133 --> 00:27:20.432
All right.
00:27:20.432 --> 00:27:21.512
So sorry.
00:27:21.512 --> 00:27:23.012
I took us down that rabbit hole.
00:27:23.072 --> 00:27:26.403
We F you know, we followed Alice and let's, I'll bring it back.
00:27:26.403 --> 00:27:31.032
Max, one of the things you, and I think we also talked about when it came to, why is it so hard to hire people?
00:27:31.032 --> 00:27:36.980
Is there's I, maybe it's just a perception, but it may perception or real realistically, is it there?
00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:46.373
Is there a difference in The, the expectations or the opportunities, depending on which side you're on for candidates that are either from large organizations versus smaller ones.
00:27:46.451 --> 00:27:49.401
And the, the perception that they maybe they're exposed to more.
00:27:49.671 --> 00:27:49.850
Yeah.
00:27:49.850 --> 00:27:57.394
Smaller companies they're exposed to more of a broad set of technologies Versus large ones, or, more or less hands on things like that.
00:27:57.825 --> 00:27:58.595
Yeah, totally.
00:27:59.035 --> 00:28:03.010
I, we tend to lean towards working with smaller organizations under.
00:28:03.401 --> 00:28:06.161
2000 employees under a thousand employees.
00:28:06.850 --> 00:28:14.831
And they tend to like folks from smaller organizations because they think they're scrappier or they, can do more with less.
00:28:14.908 --> 00:28:21.391
But I think, my personal opinion, bigger organizations just want the right person, cuz they know how hard it is to hire.
00:28:21.391 --> 00:28:26.711
So if somebody shows interest, they wanna work at a larger firm, they wanna snatch them up all day.
00:28:27.310 --> 00:28:30.716
because typically smaller organ, folks from smaller organizations wear a lot of hats.
00:28:30.716 --> 00:28:35.606
We've been talking a lot about this doing multiple functions under MOS.
00:28:35.673 --> 00:28:43.699
Whereas like a bigger organization, a mops person, we've built out a Mar marketing operations function out of publicly traded company.
00:28:44.239 --> 00:28:46.219
And there was somebody for analytics.
00:28:46.219 --> 00:28:47.509
There was somebody for email.
00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:49.489
There was somebody to manage integrations.
00:28:50.148 --> 00:28:55.798
There was somebody to bridge the gap between Salesforce, the sales ops person, the marketing operations person.
00:28:56.189 --> 00:29:01.760
So we're talking, six, seven people in marketing operations, and there's some organizations that we work with.
00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:04.100
There's one marketing operations person.
00:29:04.161 --> 00:29:06.320
And it's a, and it's the director like you were talking about,
00:29:06.610 --> 00:29:06.961
Right.
00:29:07.068 --> 00:29:12.509
Do so I guess from your experience, do you see, I guess there's a difference, right?
00:29:12.513 --> 00:29:18.500
If there's a candidate who's more, more interested in smaller versus larger or anything, they're self-selecting a little bit, but
00:29:18.516 --> 00:29:19.175
absolutely.
00:29:19.370 --> 00:29:27.252
you outside of that, do you think that there really is a difference in, in that those two experiences that.
00:29:27.281 --> 00:29:32.624
If all other things be equal, which may not ever happen, that they wouldn't be as good a candidate.
00:29:32.684 --> 00:29:53.128
I think smaller org, smaller software companies 10 or smaller B2B organizations, whatever the, however you wanna say it, however you wanna skin, it tend to lean towards the smaller scrappy person because they there's this misconception that somebody from a bigger org is gonna be slower or they're just gonna be a cog in the wheel.
00:29:53.128 --> 00:29:54.368
I don't personally agree with.
00:29:54.368 --> 00:30:03.278
I think it's all about the person and, we've hired folks for our clients where it's a smaller company, but they're coming from a 10,000 person company.
00:30:03.278 --> 00:30:13.989
When we peel back the onion, they're in a startup group within the larger company that is implementing tech for the first time and they're handling that soup to nuts.
00:30:14.618 --> 00:30:18.939
So I think it really like you, you were alluding to, it really depends on the person.
00:30:19.959 --> 00:30:23.901
Yeah mean, and then it gets back to difficulty of evaluating some of those other.
00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:32.288
The characteristics or traits that are not as easy to go, I've either worked with Marketo or I haven't, or I've worked with HubSpot or I haven't.
00:30:32.288 --> 00:30:32.966
That kind of stuff.
00:30:32.966 --> 00:30:40.664
I just, for the record, I would argue that some of those companies also put more stock than they should into particular industry experience,
00:30:41.075 --> 00:30:41.365
Yeah.
00:30:41.504 --> 00:30:44.625
but that's just my own sort of bugga
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:46.106
That's a weird one for me.
00:30:46.173 --> 00:30:52.302
When it co and it falls in line with the, you don't need to be in the office, to be able to do this role.
00:30:52.326 --> 00:30:56.058
Just you don't need to like, have industry experience necessarily to do
00:30:56.808 --> 00:30:59.509
I, I think it's less industry.
00:30:59.509 --> 00:30:59.759
I.
00:30:59.788 --> 00:31:13.613
I get on calls with hiring managers and they want, we start the conversation and we want hub, Marketo Salesforce, 6 cents this, and it's here's this wishlist, but that, somebody with that wishlist is gonna just come in and say, this is what I want.
00:31:13.613 --> 00:31:16.343
And it's not gonna be the same comp that they have in mind.
00:31:16.343 --> 00:31:18.825
So there's gotta be some concessions on both sides.
00:31:18.858 --> 00:31:21.168
And that's the, what people don't tend to realize.
00:31:21.168 --> 00:31:22.519
It's yeah, you have a budget.
00:31:23.394 --> 00:31:26.884
it's probably gonna be either at market under market.
00:31:27.663 --> 00:31:30.753
And a lot of these people are so sought after right now.
00:31:31.173 --> 00:31:38.344
It's a candidate driven market, even with everything going on in the world, a lot of layoffs are happening, but you still see people are hiring.
00:31:38.433 --> 00:31:41.654
You still see the number of never Marketo jobs is through the roof.
00:31:41.654 --> 00:31:45.075
The number of account based marketing jobs is through the roof MOS.
00:31:45.075 --> 00:31:47.816
The same thing, even the marketing ops job board.
00:31:48.955 --> 00:31:52.859
Probably some of the highest job postings that you, that we, have ever had in the community.
00:31:53.339 --> 00:32:00.144
So I think, as long as this the expectations are set you just gotta hire the right person at the end of the day.
00:32:00.463 --> 00:32:01.713
Yeah, totally
00:32:01.771 --> 00:32:06.570
I, out of curiosity, because this is a timestamped kind of thing.
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:10.471
I don't really need to know probably what the salary ranges are at this point in time.
00:32:10.471 --> 00:32:10.830
We've got
00:32:10.846 --> 00:32:11.056
Whew.
00:32:11.123 --> 00:32:12.631
How much time do you have on that?
00:32:12.915 --> 00:32:13.215
Yeah.
00:32:13.310 --> 00:32:18.752
But I am curious more holistically, you get to recruit across the country for different organizations.
00:32:18.758 --> 00:32:26.697
Have you seen the shift in the, at the line of thinking there, because look, we need the right talent and we realize that we're gonna pay them market.
00:32:28.018 --> 00:32:30.867
Regardless of where our headquarters is.
00:32:31.407 --> 00:32:32.978
Have you seen that change?
00:32:32.985 --> 00:32:40.403
We don't typically work, 98%, 99% of the jobs that we work on are a hundred percent remote.
00:32:41.094 --> 00:32:49.114
So there are areas of the country based on salary requirements that the, our clients have that we just decide not to recruit from.
00:32:49.114 --> 00:33:01.527
But besides that, it's it makes our job a lot easier if we're able to go outbound on LinkedIn, to specific people that have that expertise, because you're gonna get a choice.
00:33:02.216 --> 00:33:15.341
3 4, 5, 6 people to potentially hire versus, one or two people from Florida that have the HubSpot or Marketo experience that they're looking for because they can sit on site in a, in an office.
00:33:15.942 --> 00:33:22.705
So we shy away from even partnering with companies that have the, the remote, no remote aspect of the.
00:33:23.605 --> 00:33:23.935
Yeah.
00:33:23.965 --> 00:33:34.885
That's nice to hear in general that you're championing that, but also the key thing that I want to pull on there is that like you, your organization, your strategic decision is.
00:33:34.917 --> 00:33:39.143
And this is really a message to the hiring managers and hiring teams out there who I hope will listen to.
00:33:39.143 --> 00:33:44.153
This is that your budget is determining where talent can even be sourced from.
00:33:44.162 --> 00:33:52.599
If you're too low, like you cannot go after certain segments of the country because where they live, their cost of living is gonna be out of there.
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:52.869
So
00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:53.500
Totally.
00:33:54.009 --> 00:34:03.339
Please go look at our state of the Mo pro research and look at the average salary ranges for different roles in different company sizes so that you can set a baseline that allows you to recruit from the whole country
00:34:03.970 --> 00:34:05.379
I'll be do, I'll be doing that soon.
00:34:05.423 --> 00:34:06.096
That's coming out.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:11.914
Just to add on that too, that I mentioned the 5,800 Marketo certified experts around the country.
00:34:12.575 --> 00:34:17.693
I think half of them, no maybe a third of them are in the bay area.
00:34:17.702 --> 00:34:40.400
You know what like bay area and Washington a company in Georgia or Tennessee or Florida, not only we're talking, not only are we talking about time zone differences, like a lot of our clients that are in Florida typically or New York or Chicago, or they Boston, they, even though that, they're open to the remote piece, they kinda the have them on the same time zone so that we can work same hours.
00:34:40.465 --> 00:34:48.153
Because obviously if it's a Northeast based company and most of their cl most of their employees are in the Northeast, it's gonna be hard to hire somebody to run.
00:34:48.858 --> 00:34:52.158
That's three hours behind and they're one of the only people on that team.
00:34:52.488 --> 00:34:56.208
So here's where Michael and I are both gonna push back on this one.
00:34:56.483 --> 00:34:56.993
Like I.
00:34:58.608 --> 00:35:12.420
so if I was a marketing ops person, who's been doing this for a little while and I guess I have now I will say there is a distinct advantage to the company, not to the employee.
00:35:12.765 --> 00:35:16.695
To the company to have somebody on a slightly different offset time zone.
00:35:17.325 --> 00:35:23.205
And the reason for that is that marketing ops people need quiet time to go do the.
00:35:23.297 --> 00:35:23.567
That's the,
00:35:24.197 --> 00:35:25.697
constantly with requests.
00:35:25.787 --> 00:35:26.627
It'll never end.
00:35:26.627 --> 00:35:30.767
The backlog is always getting filled up and something is always a high priority.
00:35:30.977 --> 00:35:43.731
But if there's a chance that you could be working at three o'clock and it's six, o'clock where your headquarters is, that's a huge win cuz you got about three hours of downtime where hopefully there are, at least 80% less
00:35:43.865 --> 00:35:47.646
I assume you met three, I assume you met 3:00 PM, but it could be 3:00 AM too.
00:35:47.650 --> 00:35:48.400
If that's how you.
00:35:49.465 --> 00:35:49.915
Sure.
00:35:49.915 --> 00:35:50.275
Yeah.
00:35:50.335 --> 00:35:51.385
I meant three P
00:35:51.446 --> 00:35:55.919
That's a good snippet for cuz you guys know I'm not a, I'm not a Mar marketing ops person.
00:35:55.919 --> 00:36:01.169
I just interface a lot with hiring managers at hire mops and mops, people that are looking for jobs.
00:36:01.409 --> 00:36:04.595
So that's a good talking point for me when I'm talking to customers
00:36:04.670 --> 00:36:05.980
I think it's a selling point.
00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:08.461
Like you should consider this candidate because here's.
00:36:09.197 --> 00:36:09.497
yeah,
00:36:09.586 --> 00:36:16.067
this is potentially what they could be getting of providing value back to your organization because they've got the time to go focus.
00:36:16.067 --> 00:36:16.247
Yeah.
00:36:16.286 --> 00:36:22.916
If to me, if that was the only thing was that they're off by two or three hours and they were absolutely to your point, right?
00:36:22.916 --> 00:36:24.176
They were the right person.
00:36:24.836 --> 00:36:25.736
There's two options.
00:36:25.796 --> 00:36:29.726
Like one, you just let them flex their, like them flex their hours to what works for them.
00:36:29.726 --> 00:36:35.150
And, if there's meetings that need to happen that are off out of their normal hours.
00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:36.140
So be it right.
00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:37.190
They also have to live with it.
00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:40.940
Or you ask them to work the same hours as the majority of the other people.
00:36:41.510 --> 00:36:46.057
Which means there means they start late or they get done early, or I think a lot of people would be willing to do that.
00:36:46.086 --> 00:36:47.167
I will add even that.
00:36:47.167 --> 00:36:57.982
So both of my last, my current role and my last role, I've had pretty much teams either direct or through consultants kind of people all over.
00:36:58.012 --> 00:36:59.632
So I'm in the middle of the country in Dallas.
00:36:59.632 --> 00:37:01.592
Right now I've got people in the east coast.
00:37:01.592 --> 00:37:02.882
I've got people on the west coast.
00:37:03.707 --> 00:37:04.900
Hire another person up east.
00:37:05.037 --> 00:37:17.517
And then I've got consultants in Europe and that actually, that, that has been super beneficial when we've got late, kinda late coming stuff coming in that needs to be reviewed in QA or something for marketing teams.
00:37:17.591 --> 00:37:20.051
So that person can kind, they'll be up the overnight.
00:37:20.561 --> 00:37:21.581
It gets reviewed.
00:37:22.001 --> 00:37:22.781
We're ready to go.
00:37:23.531 --> 00:37:27.285
So I think there's some it doesn't work for every team or every organization.
00:37:27.285 --> 00:37:29.715
I get it, especially if there's a sort of a cultural component to it.
00:37:29.715 --> 00:37:32.890
That's gonna eject people who don't, match that.
00:37:32.890 --> 00:37:36.640
But I think it can be, it can work to your advantage if you're hiring manager.
00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:37.450
All right.
00:37:37.450 --> 00:37:42.495
So I brought up consultants and Mike, you alluded to it, I think in tongue in cheek a little bit, but seriously.
00:37:43.065 --> 00:37:52.148
So given the challenges of the market as hiring managers or the high expectations of individual people with span of scope of their roles.
00:37:52.628 --> 00:38:00.284
Max, what do you think is, do you think it's a good option to look at consultants or contractors or freelancers to help fill in the gaps
00:38:00.317 --> 00:38:00.827
Yeah.
00:38:00.887 --> 00:38:05.207
Or even, yeah, consultants, freelancers, even consulting agencies as well.
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:06.700
I know there's a lot out there.
00:38:06.700 --> 00:38:21.445
Just to be able to give you the voice of reason, especially if the marketing leaders aren't leaning more towards the MarTech stock, maybe they're more demand gen focused or corporate marketing focused, or, I think it makes a lot of sense, especially if you're looking at implementing new tools.
00:38:22.644 --> 00:38:23.842
six senses is a big one.
00:38:23.872 --> 00:38:31.172
I know a lot of people I saw something that six senses was one of the Mo the top 10 most bought software all of this year.
00:38:31.742 --> 00:38:34.418
So how many people, you guys know how quick they're growing.
00:38:34.479 --> 00:38:41.589
Being able to partner with a consultant, that's done it, done 10 implementations or 20 implementations, and can help you figure that out.
00:38:41.665 --> 00:38:45.115
It's gonna, it's gonna save you a lot of time and money and energy in the long.
00:38:48.120 --> 00:38:48.600
Got it.
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.080
Yeah.
00:38:49.108 --> 00:38:50.612
I've had good luck with that too.
00:38:50.612 --> 00:38:51.752
Mike, you say something.
00:38:51.987 --> 00:38:57.182
I was just gonna say, yeah, I have to advocate for that a bit these types of go-to market motions.
00:38:57.482 --> 00:39:03.637
I think something as specific as like an ABM, for example Really is like there's tools.
00:39:03.637 --> 00:39:13.146
And then there's the people that need to project manage and see every last little detail of that all the way through leveraging the technology and all the little touch points that go into that.
00:39:13.776 --> 00:39:16.056
There, there's no way to replace that.
00:39:16.506 --> 00:39:24.454
If there isn't someone that is like wholly owning that function and their whole purpose is to make that thing successful.
00:39:24.454 --> 00:39:25.256
You will.
00:39:25.841 --> 00:39:30.184
Quickly see a lack of return on the investment in an ABM effort.
00:39:30.184 --> 00:39:37.233
So like just, those are really good moments to like tap into someone who's already done something and hopefully has a track record of success.
00:39:38.163 --> 00:39:38.373
Yeah.
00:39:38.373 --> 00:39:42.809
And I've not only done that for like specific expertise and say a tool.
00:39:43.874 --> 00:39:44.384
That kinda stuff.
00:39:44.384 --> 00:39:54.473
I've also just and I've been lucky that I've happened to have engaged with several, good firms where they provide an extension of the team.
00:39:54.473 --> 00:40:02.944
They're doing ongoing work and it's, it can either be project based or it could be just, Hey know we've got a high volume of, operational stuff this coming month.
00:40:02.996 --> 00:40:03.806
Can you help us out?
00:40:03.865 --> 00:40:05.910
So big fan of that as.
00:40:07.215 --> 00:40:10.064
Max any final thoughts before we wrap this up?
00:40:12.044 --> 00:40:16.546
Oh I think I really appreciate the open-endedness of that one.
00:40:16.636 --> 00:40:17.976
We can go down a lot of rabbit holes.
00:40:18.066 --> 00:40:18.365
I
00:40:18.486 --> 00:40:19.566
the you're on the clock, Max?
00:40:19.566 --> 00:40:20.076
No, I'm kidding.
00:40:20.946 --> 00:40:23.556
no, no shameless, no plugs here.
00:40:23.583 --> 00:40:29.723
Obviously the biggest challenge I think that hiring managers are facing is not talking to enough candidates.
00:40:30.113 --> 00:40:36.113
So whether you're gonna work with a recruiter, you have your internal team, you're working with external recruiters.
00:40:36.141 --> 00:40:42.632
It's all about being on the same page for what you're looking for and similar titles or similar people that can do the job.
00:40:42.702 --> 00:40:50.082
The average time right now to fill these roles is three to six months, which is a ridiculous amount of time to have that seat open.
00:40:50.204 --> 00:40:52.754
I know just it's that's the reality, right?
00:40:53.744 --> 00:40:54.224
right.
00:40:54.314 --> 00:41:03.371
So if that is a reality, there's a couple really good marketing technology, recruiting companies, not just, not just ours in the market that can help bridge that gap.
00:41:04.031 --> 00:41:07.832
Most recruiting agencies are able to, fill pipeline in 72 hours.
00:41:07.864 --> 00:41:17.377
If you have the budget partner with folks like us, there's, I can name five off the top of my head that specialize in this, seek them out and ask for assistance.
00:41:18.562 --> 00:41:18.982
Yep.
00:41:19.342 --> 00:41:20.182
Amen to that.
00:41:20.407 --> 00:41:20.797
Yeah.
00:41:20.897 --> 00:41:23.293
Alright, I know you, you were trying to avoid the shameless plug.
00:41:23.293 --> 00:41:25.033
I'm gonna give you the opportunity now to do that.
00:41:25.033 --> 00:41:30.447
So if folks wanna connect with you and pick your brain or engage with you guys, what's the best way for them to
00:41:30.597 --> 00:41:34.455
Yeah, I LinkedIn I'm on LinkedIn all day long in my life.
00:41:34.465 --> 00:41:43.606
Give me a shout on LinkedIn, Max span your Would love to have conversations with anybody about recruiting, marketing operations, or craft beer and big craft beer guy.
00:41:44.056 --> 00:41:46.080
And it's four, four o'clock on a Friday.
00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:48.184
So I need to need to go for my first right now.
00:41:48.379 --> 00:41:48.679
There you
00:41:48.798 --> 00:41:49.459
you go.
00:41:49.489 --> 00:41:50.209
I love it.
00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:51.961
Oh, where're the thing keeping you from that?
00:41:51.961 --> 00:41:53.042
I don't know if that's a good thing.
00:41:53.447 --> 00:41:53.687
Yeah.
00:41:53.687 --> 00:41:59.387
Speaking of time zone differences, it's one o'clock here and I'm like, man, I still have a whole day ahead of me.
00:42:00.287 --> 00:42:00.887
there you go.
00:42:01.067 --> 00:42:02.677
Thanks so much guys, for having me.
00:42:03.167 --> 00:42:05.057
I appreciate Max Mike as always.
00:42:05.057 --> 00:42:05.836
Thank you.
00:42:05.842 --> 00:42:12.317
And I know we'll see Naomi again here soon, but, and then to all of our listeners out there, thank you for continuing to support us.
00:42:12.347 --> 00:42:16.710
And as always we're looking for your feedback, ideas for topics and guests.
00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:18.510
So send'em our way.
00:42:19.545 --> 00:42:20.085
With that.
00:42:20.175 --> 00:42:20.805
It's a wrap.
00:42:20.925 --> 00:42:21.644
See you next time.
00:00:26.980 --> 00:00:27.700
Hello, everyone.
00:00:27.700 --> 00:00:32.814
Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by the Mo Pros powered by marketingops.com.
00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:34.450
If you're not a member already, you should do that.
00:00:34.450 --> 00:00:35.590
Go set up your profile.
00:00:35.859 --> 00:00:39.010
Joining me today is just one of my co-host Mike Rizzo.
00:00:39.010 --> 00:00:40.870
Mike what's the year again.
00:00:41.109 --> 00:00:42.730
It is the year of the Mopro.
00:00:42.734 --> 00:00:42.850
It
00:00:42.870 --> 00:00:45.390
I really, I need to come up with something else.
00:00:45.549 --> 00:00:46.060
I know right.
00:00:46.060 --> 00:00:49.210
To something else, but like it is also the year 2022.
00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:57.070
So you might hear us stop saying that at some point, if you're listening to this years later, cuz this is evergreen content folks.
00:00:57.070 --> 00:00:59.200
you know what the Roman numeral is for 2022?
00:00:59.261 --> 00:01:00.125
This is a how geek?
00:01:00.185 --> 00:01:02.276
X II 2022.
00:01:03.356 --> 00:01:09.413
that's the fact that pops into your head and you visualize that enough to be able to say it to me means you
00:01:09.503 --> 00:01:10.883
Oh, I've thought about this before.
00:01:11.123 --> 00:01:11.543
Oh, okay.
00:01:11.573 --> 00:01:11.843
Okay.
00:01:11.843 --> 00:01:12.143
Got it.
00:01:12.427 --> 00:01:18.722
Yeah, I actually, so I, for our listeners dunno, I'm in a workout group and I had to lead a workout and I tried to make themes out of'em.
00:01:18.722 --> 00:01:20.012
I actually did one based on that.
00:01:20.012 --> 00:01:22.021
So you can ask me about that later.
00:01:22.367 --> 00:01:23.387
that makes sense.
00:01:23.432 --> 00:01:23.701
Yeah.
00:01:23.810 --> 00:01:33.349
Anyway, so sorry to take us off on a tangent, right from the get go, but joining us today is Max Spanier and Max, I probably should have asked, did I pronounce that.
00:01:34.030 --> 00:01:34.320
Yeah.
00:01:34.325 --> 00:01:34.849
Perfect.
00:01:34.849 --> 00:01:35.299
Perfect.
00:01:35.644 --> 00:01:36.784
Max Spanier to help us.
00:01:37.204 --> 00:01:37.625
Thank you.
00:01:37.625 --> 00:01:38.555
Answer the question.
00:01:38.915 --> 00:01:41.974
Why is it so hard to hire marketing apps professionals?
00:01:41.980 --> 00:01:50.435
So Max is the founder and president of Sloan staffing, a recruitment firm that specializes in marketing technology, digital marketing, SAS sales, and technology roles.
00:01:50.495 --> 00:01:52.144
Prior to starting Sloan staffing.
00:01:52.144 --> 00:01:54.605
Max was an enterprise account executive at Marketo.
00:01:55.114 --> 00:02:00.185
Before that he yelled other sales and business development roles at, in interactive, in Sovi digital.
00:02:00.275 --> 00:02:02.344
So Max, thank you for joining us today.
00:02:03.545 --> 00:02:04.864
Much appreciated Mike.
00:02:04.864 --> 00:02:07.144
And am I looking forward to it?
00:02:07.549 --> 00:02:07.939
All right.
00:02:07.968 --> 00:02:10.331
So it, no, we do that intentionally.
00:02:10.352 --> 00:02:16.076
This is like at my house, all like we're all M names and at my house, all my kids are B names and there's three of them.
00:02:16.135 --> 00:02:16.975
So just like this.
00:02:17.010 --> 00:02:24.858
So Max, what you don't know is we soon to be released episode that just happened was just the other side of this, which is how do you find your next.
00:02:25.579 --> 00:02:28.002
In marketing ops with another recruiter.
00:02:28.002 --> 00:02:36.592
So I think this is gonna be fun talking about, so we'll have back to back, we'll have episodes about the two sides of the job market for marketing ops.
00:02:36.592 --> 00:02:40.199
And that's the question we're trying to break down is why is it so hard to hire marketing ops pros?
00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:45.419
So just from a big picture, do you know, are there any like systemic.
00:02:46.409 --> 00:02:50.050
issues or challenges given what you see every day with your clients?
00:02:50.050 --> 00:02:50.786
Go from there.
00:02:51.716 --> 00:02:54.342
No it's a good starting point, Mike really appreciate it.
00:02:54.372 --> 00:02:57.971
From a systemic standpoint, that's a tough word to start with.
00:02:58.034 --> 00:02:58.515
I'm sorry.
00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:05.145
I almost hesitated using that word just because I feel like it's been overused in lots of different contexts lately.
00:03:05.715 --> 00:03:08.340
So I'll use just the Marketo piece to start.
00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:14.530
So I wrote a, I wrote an article a couple weeks ago, just about the total number of Marketo certified experts in the country.
00:03:14.530 --> 00:03:19.878
I think there was 5,800 Marketo CE around the United States.
00:03:20.269 --> 00:03:25.998
And if you look on LinkedIn, there are about 8,000 jobs that require Marketo experience.
00:03:26.045 --> 00:03:33.358
If you think about just the supply and demand piece, that's just one of the four main marketing operations, email marketing tools out there.
00:03:33.837 --> 00:03:44.967
So I think there's a big challenge right now with just the kind of entry point into this space and then the advancement to other roles within marketing operations.
00:03:45.036 --> 00:03:46.919
But they're, I don't know, of highway education.
00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:48.300
I don't know if you've heard about those folks.
00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:49.080
They're doing a really good job.
00:03:49.814 --> 00:03:55.466
Trying to train the entry level person to even get into this position right now.
00:03:55.765 --> 00:03:56.246
Yeah.
00:03:56.306 --> 00:03:56.515
Yeah.
00:03:56.515 --> 00:03:57.626
I'm actually glad you brought them up.
00:03:57.626 --> 00:04:02.425
I assumed we would end up talking about them at some point and then no better place than right at the start.
00:04:02.462 --> 00:04:23.622
When you think about trying to get some talent into the market starting off with an incredible program that they've been building alongside a lot of experts in the field actually just received an email from their founder and CEO this morning about some additional ways in which we want to try to work together to make sure more of those graduates find roles and all of those kinds of things.
00:04:23.692 --> 00:04:26.701
Yeah, it's like supply and demand is a massive
00:04:26.822 --> 00:04:27.951
Big issue right now.
00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:32.240
I never would've guessed that just on that Marketo one, there would've been that big of.
00:04:32.931 --> 00:04:35.061
Of a gap between the supply and the demand side.
00:04:35.061 --> 00:04:38.091
Is it, do you think it's, do you think that's an indicator?
00:04:38.096 --> 00:04:39.201
Is that consistent?
00:04:39.265 --> 00:04:45.311
If let's just talk about the major map marketing animation platforms, do you think it's consistent for the, all of them or
00:04:45.385 --> 00:04:47.875
without a doubt with, yeah, without a doubt.
00:04:47.903 --> 00:04:53.062
I personally, Mo majority of our clients are either on Marketo or hubs.
00:04:53.721 --> 00:05:01.480
So obviously they want folks that have that level experience and, ideally they're coming from a company that used that same marketing automation platform.
00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.320
So there's no learning curve right out of the gate because you guys know, more than I do.
00:05:05.320 --> 00:05:08.206
If I were to sit in front of Marketo, I wouldn't even know how to log in.
00:05:08.355 --> 00:05:15.905
Even though I worked there for two years being able to just come in and be able to create immediate impact is what a lot of these hiring managers are looking for at the end of the.
00:05:17.775 --> 00:05:18.645
Yeah, they are.
00:05:18.645 --> 00:05:20.895
We talked a little bit about that on the last one too.
00:05:20.895 --> 00:05:26.279
And I think the pallet for, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it, Max, but.
00:05:27.164 --> 00:05:28.424
when you are working.
00:05:28.424 --> 00:05:44.876
I think my question on this is when you're working with clients on trying to staff roles I would imagine, and maybe you could just talk us through some of what that engagement looks like as you're not scoping them for whether or not you can provide value to them, but more like there's a need.
00:05:45.006 --> 00:05:50.895
But are you doing anything to try to help them understand what that real need is or do they come in and you.
00:05:51.706 --> 00:05:52.096
All right.
00:05:52.096 --> 00:05:52.365
Yeah.
00:05:52.365 --> 00:05:54.586
Like you, you think you want this?
00:05:54.666 --> 00:05:56.076
And so we'll see if we can go find
00:05:56.166 --> 00:05:57.740
Yeah what's, it's so funny.
00:05:57.740 --> 00:06:01.884
You brought that up because Mike you introduced me perfectly and I really appreciate it.
00:06:01.889 --> 00:06:03.835
I can't believe you even pronounced my name correctly.
00:06:03.835 --> 00:06:05.875
Not a lot of people are able to do that, but
00:06:06.225 --> 00:06:07.524
It's better to be lucky than good.
00:06:07.524 --> 00:06:07.975
I say.
00:06:08.725 --> 00:06:11.034
so I used to work at Marketo enterprise rep.
00:06:11.039 --> 00:06:15.408
I left because I realized the biggest challenge with B2B organizations.
00:06:15.408 --> 00:06:16.938
Wasn't do I buy Marketo?
00:06:16.938 --> 00:06:18.048
Do I buy a HubSpot?
00:06:18.048 --> 00:06:18.168
Do I.
00:06:19.658 --> 00:06:20.948
Pardot, whatever the case may be.
00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:29.159
I left to start a Mar a recruiting company in this space because the biggest challenge was finding and building a team around those systems to be effective.
00:06:29.700 --> 00:06:41.100
So to answer your question around like the whole piece of scoping work and really digging into these roles, marketing operations is such a broad title.
00:06:41.192 --> 00:06:45.312
Some companies just they just consider marketing operations as an email marketing.
00:06:46.167 --> 00:06:58.527
Some companies think of marketing operations as an analytics person, somebody to oversee six end somebody to work very closely with the sales operations team, somebody to run, email somebody to be the integrations person.
00:06:58.557 --> 00:07:01.496
So it's really multiple positions in one.
00:07:01.887 --> 00:07:05.216
So we're really when we're having these kickoff calls with these organizations.
00:07:05.221 --> 00:07:05.937
It's okay.
00:07:05.985 --> 00:07:06.975
What do you have?
00:07:07.546 --> 00:07:11.385
What are you looking to accomplish and how can this person bridge that gap?
00:07:13.291 --> 00:07:22.890
So this, to me, this begs a couple of questions and I'll probably be guilty as anybody else who's been in a hiring role position.
00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:32.677
So one, I guess is, for those of us who are hiring, are we putting too much stock into that specific platform experience?
00:07:33.383 --> 00:07:34.102
for some roles.
00:07:34.107 --> 00:07:46.493
And then the second one is cuz you did the way you just described what I think we all would tell you is more common than not, or at least more common than we would like to see, which is a role that has so much scope to it.
00:07:47.033 --> 00:07:49.043
That it doesn't feel like it should be just one person.
00:07:50.092 --> 00:07:50.482
Yeah.
00:07:50.549 --> 00:07:55.551
Are we trying to get too much out of one, a person.
00:07:56.120 --> 00:08:02.277
And are they, are we, and are we being too, are we making it harder on ourselves as hiring managers?
00:08:02.397 --> 00:08:05.157
Because we're being so specific about skill sets that we're looking for?
00:08:05.427 --> 00:08:05.887
Yeah.
00:08:05.887 --> 00:08:15.964
In my opinion, it's so it's the biggest challenge that hiring managers are facing is they're not talking to enough candidates to be able to make a justified decision on who they wanna move forward with.
00:08:16.413 --> 00:08:32.118
So yeah, the challenge that we're seeing in these companies is that they're solely relying on inbound resumes to hire somebody or personal relationships or posting something in, in a, in their community, in LinkedIn or whatever the case may be.
00:08:32.418 --> 00:08:35.957
So there, the number of candidates that they're able to, to interview.
00:08:36.408 --> 00:08:37.248
Is very low.
00:08:37.607 --> 00:08:44.927
And then not only that, but the low amount of candidates, if they do find somebody, chances are that person's already interviewing at multiple places.
00:08:45.227 --> 00:08:46.457
So they have to act quick.
00:08:46.457 --> 00:08:50.658
And depending on the size of the company, chances are bigger companies move slow.
00:08:50.658 --> 00:08:54.018
Even some of the smaller companies that we work with move pretty slow as well.
00:08:54.388 --> 00:08:56.764
But I think there's, there's two points.
00:08:56.764 --> 00:08:58.711
There's the not talking to enough candidates.
00:08:58.711 --> 00:08:58.920
And then.
00:09:00.435 --> 00:09:04.785
such a big emphasis just on narrow focus.
00:09:04.966 --> 00:09:10.605
If I want a Marketo person that knows 6 cents, that also knows Tableau that has Salesforce experience.
00:09:10.663 --> 00:09:23.958
Maybe somebody that has HubSpot experience that really wants to get into Marketo or that knows this or that knows that can translate very nicely, could step into the job very quickly versus waiting another three months to have that person.
00:09:26.749 --> 00:09:28.249
So I think then if I'm.
00:09:28.327 --> 00:09:31.062
I'll try to put words in your mouth if I'm gonna play it back to you, is that you're?
00:09:31.121 --> 00:09:39.192
I think you're suggesting indirectly that we as hiring managers should be more open to candidates who maybe don't check all the boxes.
00:09:39.201 --> 00:09:46.860
And maybe I guess this is something that I struggle with how to find this, because I've believe I actually just recently hired somebody.
00:09:47.730 --> 00:09:50.701
Didn't have the experience in the marketing nomination platform we had.
00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:56.110
And I intentionally worked with our recruiters and stuff said, don't I don't know that we'll find that.
00:09:56.132 --> 00:10:00.872
Let's open it up and look for people who have potential right.
00:10:00.872 --> 00:10:01.562
And can learn.
00:10:02.582 --> 00:10:14.476
But that is such a harder thing to do is like, how do you look for people who have that ability to learn are curious wanna know how stuff works and are also interested in it from a marketing kind of domain level.
00:10:14.476 --> 00:10:20.420
I, when I talk to other people in marketing ops who are in the hiring levels, typically when you ask them, what do you look for?
00:10:20.423 --> 00:10:22.913
What do you think distinguishes the best performers from others?
00:10:22.943 --> 00:10:26.124
It's those kinds of things, not their technical skills.
00:10:26.453 --> 00:10:26.874
right.
00:10:27.533 --> 00:10:28.043
Totally.
00:10:28.223 --> 00:10:31.494
Do you have any suggestions how we find that or look for that or test
00:10:31.538 --> 00:10:32.038
yeah.
00:10:32.068 --> 00:10:33.928
At the end of the day, a tool's a tool, right?
00:10:33.928 --> 00:10:35.639
It's the person behind the tool.
00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.428
That's going to get you from point a to the desired state.
00:10:39.451 --> 00:10:48.000
I think it really depends on company and the, and what pieces of the puzzle that you currently have in place and be able to interview around that.
00:10:48.028 --> 00:10:48.298
I know.
00:10:49.078 --> 00:10:51.178
Sarah McNamara is famous for this.
00:10:51.178 --> 00:11:01.139
She posts a lot about, content around how not to do take home assignments or SP insure make, make the candidates jump through hoops to grow through interview processes.
00:11:01.438 --> 00:11:02.848
I completely agree with that.
00:11:03.598 --> 00:11:15.836
I also have a sense where you need to have some level of technical conversation with these folks to really dig in, to understand what do they know, what do they not know under, and then create kind of pros and cons lists of each individual.
00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:19.420
Do the pros outweigh the cons absolutely move forward with them.
00:11:19.451 --> 00:11:24.190
If there's hesitation around the technical capabilities, probably not gonna be the right fit for the role.
00:11:24.216 --> 00:11:24.697
Yeah.
00:11:24.726 --> 00:11:26.011
It's it's hard, right?
00:11:26.024 --> 00:11:31.111
Measuring for aptitude around like technical capabilities is one thing.
00:11:31.153 --> 00:11:38.430
But trying to figure out are you curious or are you willing to learn or what have you that's a piece that I think we.
00:11:38.745 --> 00:11:42.466
We as a community are working on alongside you Max, right?
00:11:42.466 --> 00:11:52.879
Where we're all pushing forward on educating leadership and hiring managers who maybe have never staffed for a role like this That those are the things that matter.
00:11:52.904 --> 00:11:54.914
I think you said it just a moment ago, right?
00:11:54.914 --> 00:11:55.944
A tool's a tool.
00:11:55.982 --> 00:11:59.283
If, and in our last episode that we recorded, it was.
00:11:59.778 --> 00:12:06.634
Or one of'em most recently it was around this idea of what's your palette for that, that learning curve, right?
00:12:06.634 --> 00:12:12.632
That ramp up Unfortunately, people start thinking about the need for a marketing operations role.
00:12:12.635 --> 00:12:13.775
Almost way too late.
00:12:13.850 --> 00:12:15.230
Like when something's already broken.
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:22.949
like it's either it's already broken or they're like, oh, we decided to buy whatever tool and now we need someone to manage that.
00:12:22.954 --> 00:12:29.159
And they're like, so I just need someone to come in and manage that and that like word of advice.
00:12:29.829 --> 00:12:32.129
That's the wrong way to build a stack.
00:12:33.209 --> 00:12:35.970
And we're advocating as a community.
00:12:35.970 --> 00:12:43.992
Sarah is one of those champion voices out there for, Hey, bring them in, bring these folks in
00:12:44.038 --> 00:12:45.658
into the conversation.
00:12:45.717 --> 00:12:46.057
Yeah.
00:12:46.067 --> 00:12:49.097
And let's talk about the go to market motion and the strategy.
00:12:49.146 --> 00:12:55.206
You're saying it yourself, Max, like how do you build a team that supports your go to market your revenue team?
00:12:55.274 --> 00:12:56.702
And then add technology to that.
00:12:57.048 --> 00:13:11.545
and it's be like out of the marketing ops landscape, but adjacent, like we're hiring a rev ops leader for a series C software company out of The Northeast and the person that was in the seat was pretty much an order taker.
00:13:11.665 --> 00:13:16.172
They'd, the SVP, the CRO would say, Hey, let's do this or let's do this, or let's do this.
00:13:16.651 --> 00:13:22.343
But you, the two of, SVPs of sales, aren't Salesforce experts, they're sales process experts.
00:13:22.348 --> 00:13:23.903
They're they know how to get deals done.
00:13:24.353 --> 00:13:27.833
So now they're, they have this system that's completely broken.
00:13:28.193 --> 00:13:36.894
And they're looking for somebody to come in and restructure everything pave the way moving forward on how do we need to set up territory plans?
00:13:36.894 --> 00:13:38.843
How do we need to do this X, Y, Z.
00:13:39.173 --> 00:13:44.298
But if they were to already have that done in the first place, there would've been a lot of time saved on all sides.
00:13:44.298 --> 00:13:44.582
Yeah.
00:13:44.689 --> 00:13:53.149
And it evolves over time, like a series C to have to come in and try to rearchitect probably isn't outside of the norm, frankly.
00:13:53.149 --> 00:13:54.230
Like it happens a lot.
00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:59.049
At least in my experience, we definitely raised a lot of money at the companies I was at in different rounds.
00:13:59.049 --> 00:14:04.443
And unfortunately we had, some people come in and just tinker with tools before they ever got fixed.
00:14:04.482 --> 00:14:05.406
But yeah, you.
00:14:06.041 --> 00:14:07.241
To solve for that problem.
00:14:07.241 --> 00:14:22.677
Ideally, you wanna hire somebody in earlier, rather than later, but it still it still comes down to a fundamental problem of supply and demand and that investment remember like a keyword there, investment in the talent is
00:14:23.886 --> 00:14:24.259
Yeah.
00:14:24.259 --> 00:14:26.230
Sorry, we've been around for over a decade.
00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:32.978
Now, a lot of us, and we know a lot about this idea of what technology can enable an organization at different stages.
00:14:33.528 --> 00:14:37.428
But that those salary ranges, like they're not entry level.
00:14:37.487 --> 00:14:38.880
But there's a reason for that.
00:14:38.910 --> 00:14:46.658
And hiring teams, growing organizations, you need to account for this idea that role is a key, I would argue key component
00:14:47.092 --> 00:14:48.533
to revenue generation.
00:14:48.577 --> 00:14:49.867
to that revenue generation.
00:14:50.273 --> 00:14:50.783
totally.
00:14:51.682 --> 00:14:52.072
Yeah.
00:14:52.125 --> 00:14:56.283
My thought there is they, if those, the CRO VP were are honest, right.
00:14:56.283 --> 00:15:01.653
They probably made a, not a mistake, but they probably thought all we all, we need air quotes.
00:15:01.703 --> 00:15:03.443
All we need is a Salesforce admin.
00:15:03.507 --> 00:15:06.023
And yeah, this probably would be my guess of how they happen.
00:15:06.063 --> 00:15:06.259
Okay.
00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:08.079
So Mike alluded to.
00:15:08.470 --> 00:15:11.620
These job titles and compensation.
00:15:11.620 --> 00:15:18.824
So this is one of my hot button topic issues here is that I, one of the things I see is comes with a couple different flavors.
00:15:18.877 --> 00:15:20.850
One is, one that we already talked about, right?
00:15:20.850 --> 00:15:24.211
Job descriptions that have so much in them that it's like hard to imagine.
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.300
One person could really be successful in doing that.
00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:29.552
The other is inconsistency.
00:15:29.640 --> 00:15:36.750
Or mismatch misalignment of the job title, the scope of the role and then the compensation.
00:15:36.805 --> 00:15:48.625
And and the best example I've seen is, I think there are more and more director level roles and titles out there that I'm seeing, but when you really break'em down, especially I think at earlier stage companies or smart companies, they actually look.
00:15:49.375 --> 00:15:50.424
It's a team of one,
00:15:50.664 --> 00:15:51.174
Senior man.
00:15:51.204 --> 00:15:51.684
Yeah,
00:15:51.834 --> 00:15:54.951
And it's a ti the title's there to get to the comp
00:15:55.641 --> 00:15:56.031
Right.
00:15:56.091 --> 00:15:57.651
More so than anything else.
00:15:57.831 --> 00:16:11.211
And maybe to attract somebody who's a unicorn, but really it's I suspect it's really about the compensation because the, it feels to me like the data that's available to hiring managers and HR people doesn't actually reflect the real market.
00:16:11.797 --> 00:16:12.246
Yeah,
00:16:12.396 --> 00:16:13.896
think that's accurate or
00:16:13.896 --> 00:16:14.286
Yeah.
00:16:14.376 --> 00:16:15.036
I full of it?
00:16:15.396 --> 00:16:17.166
no, abso absolutely.
00:16:17.209 --> 00:16:20.125
I think this is why we started this business three years ago is.
00:16:20.966 --> 00:16:29.245
Internal recruiting teams typically don't have the level of experience because usually there's only a one marketing operations person, two marketing.
00:16:29.515 --> 00:16:34.028
So this isn't like a, account executive role where you need to hire 20 right or 10.
00:16:34.524 --> 00:16:36.582
So it's not like a repetitive thing.
00:16:36.582 --> 00:16:38.949
We're seeing marketing operations manager as a title.
00:16:38.949 --> 00:16:40.779
We're seeing marketing technology specialists.
00:16:40.779 --> 00:16:43.774
It's just so many, there's no uniform, uniformity.
00:16:43.865 --> 00:16:47.794
Is that a word there's no uniform approach around
00:16:48.904 --> 00:16:50.345
If it's, if it wasn't, it is now.
00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:51.039
Yeah.
00:16:52.714 --> 00:16:54.875
there's there's no, this is the title.
00:16:54.875 --> 00:16:56.355
This is the compensation.
00:16:56.376 --> 00:16:59.355
Because I think the people that, the organizations.
00:17:00.775 --> 00:17:02.572
Are willing to invest into it.
00:17:02.603 --> 00:17:13.712
They are they know the importance of it versus, somebody might hire a marketing operations person at a, and want to pay 50 K 60 K.
00:17:13.742 --> 00:17:17.950
But really, they just want somebody just to babysit HubSpot and use like a MailChimp.
00:17:18.985 --> 00:17:26.338
So there's a lot of digging that needs to happen in these interview processes, not only from a candidate standpoint, but from the hiring manager standpoint.
00:17:27.284 --> 00:17:27.614
Yeah.
00:17:27.614 --> 00:17:30.079
And it's it's a chicken and egg problem, right?
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.950
Like when you don't know what you don't know.
00:17:34.894 --> 00:17:38.867
Sometimes, depending on who's asking for the hire, right?
00:17:38.917 --> 00:17:42.937
Sometimes they don't realize that there's going to be a need very rapidly.
00:17:42.961 --> 00:17:45.151
You can hire a junior marketing ops person.
00:17:45.151 --> 00:17:49.740
Maybe they are curious enough to come in and figure some stuff out and build something of value.
00:17:50.221 --> 00:17:51.721
But you don't know that.
00:17:52.185 --> 00:17:59.026
What's gonna rapidly come up is some sort of standardization of the, like the way the data needs to move through your system.
00:17:59.266 --> 00:18:02.168
And this person has no concept of like how to do that yet.
00:18:02.168 --> 00:18:03.098
And that's perfectly all right.
00:18:03.104 --> 00:18:14.551
If you've got somebody that can figure it out, but if you don't know that's coming down the pike really quickly, you're gonna not know that you wanna look for that skill or that talent or hire that level.
00:18:15.701 --> 00:18:16.511
At the start.
00:18:16.572 --> 00:18:25.212
So now you've made a hire who isn't quite equipped with the skills or the background or the experience to go solve the next challenges that are coming down, down the line.
00:18:25.722 --> 00:18:28.633
And you're a little bit frustrated cause you're like, darn it.
00:18:28.703 --> 00:18:29.723
This is gonna go slower.
00:18:29.742 --> 00:18:30.373
What are we gonna do?
00:18:30.702 --> 00:18:31.242
Guess what?
00:18:31.242 --> 00:18:32.502
You end up hiring a consultant.
00:18:32.521 --> 00:18:32.731
I
00:18:32.946 --> 00:18:34.846
all the consultants out there are like, you hire me.
00:18:35.251 --> 00:18:35.701
Yeah.
00:18:35.701 --> 00:18:35.912
Yeah.
00:18:35.912 --> 00:18:46.089
I always push for the higher level person because you're gonna get, a lot more, but again, hiring managers have a budget, they have a CMO, that's saying, Hey, this is what we can spend.
00:18:46.089 --> 00:18:50.500
This is what we can invest because we have X amount of other hires that need to happen.
00:18:51.039 --> 00:19:00.009
But we have a lot of organizations that're working with that they're flexible and they just wanna see the best talent on the market, the rate that they're looking for and allows them to make that decision.
00:19:03.694 --> 00:19:03.984
Yeah.
00:19:03.984 --> 00:19:05.154
Oh, that's an interesting point.
00:19:05.154 --> 00:19:08.518
I was just, from an overall marketing team, there's a, probably a.
00:19:08.748 --> 00:19:12.857
Head count that goes across all the different disciplines.
00:19:13.697 --> 00:19:17.897
So can you think this is totally off script here?
00:19:17.958 --> 00:19:37.810
Not that we have a script, but just I'm going into a little different direction, but if you, are you seeing anything in terms of organizations on how let's say they have multiple roles to fill in marketing and they don't necessarily know the priority order or where they should, know, where they're gonna need to put more money into it versus somewhere else?
00:19:37.868 --> 00:19:44.985
think of it, like when we remodeled our house, we decided we're gonna spend extra on, the tile and the bathroom and the kitchen, because that's where it's gonna pay off.
00:19:44.985 --> 00:19:47.568
But it, in the somewhere else, we're not right.
00:19:47.574 --> 00:19:49.009
We're, we'll just do basic stuff.
00:19:49.038 --> 00:20:01.723
It's are you seeing organizations think about all of that across the marketing function from a way they budget for head count, especially when they're adding in a way like that, where they say, okay, we've got X amount of money and we're.
00:20:02.864 --> 00:20:07.003
We're gonna allocate it as best we can to get the best people in the most important positions first.
00:20:07.076 --> 00:20:11.149
This brings up a, I have a client of ours in the Boston area security software.
00:20:11.690 --> 00:20:14.210
They just have a handful of roles they need to hire.
00:20:14.660 --> 00:20:18.261
And for them, a lot of the approval's already done, quarter by quarter.
00:20:18.261 --> 00:20:20.807
So every, couple quarters they say, we're gonna hire this amount.
00:20:20.807 --> 00:20:21.916
And this is the budget that we have.
00:20:22.366 --> 00:20:28.636
And because hiring is so challenging right now, they're not necessarily thinking let's prioritize this over this.
00:20:28.636 --> 00:20:30.346
They're trying to prioritize the best hire.
00:20:31.192 --> 00:20:32.402
For that given position.
00:20:32.461 --> 00:20:36.422
And if it's the marketing operations person first, great, let's bring'em on.
00:20:36.841 --> 00:20:57.039
If it's the communications person, if it's the demand gem person, whatever the case may be, they want the right person for the job because they're all, all the clients that were working with are very fast growing organizations and they know that, there, there was an investment event and that money is to fund growth and growth is fund, fueled by people.
00:20:57.444 --> 00:21:04.194
So if they find that perfect person, the demand gem person, even though they need to hire a marketing operations person as well, they need to bring that person on.
00:21:04.555 --> 00:21:08.394
Otherwise they might not have that person for another three to six months,
00:21:10.444 --> 00:21:10.774
I get it.
00:21:10.774 --> 00:21:11.014
Yeah.
00:21:11.014 --> 00:21:12.514
So they're prioritizing,
00:21:13.524 --> 00:21:14.454
the right hire
00:21:14.561 --> 00:21:24.719
Like They're thinking like I, I'd rather hire, spend more and hire the best person I can right now, cuz they're probably gonna be able to do more than what we're asking for them to do really the role.
00:21:24.734 --> 00:21:29.774
And then we'll move on to the next one and try to do the same thing and kinda keep that ball rolling as they're.
00:21:29.805 --> 00:21:30.134
Okay.
00:21:30.914 --> 00:21:31.744
That's an interesting one.
00:21:31.814 --> 00:21:33.205
My head is wrapping my head.
00:21:33.235 --> 00:21:34.600
I'm going around to circles here a little bit.
00:21:34.631 --> 00:21:34.840
Okay.
00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:43.651
So now it's an area that I hadn't thought about as I think I, I do think be just to another total side, I think.
00:21:44.221 --> 00:21:59.933
One of the things I think at least some marketing apps pro people are good at is being creative with the budgets they've got, including it might be if they're like a hiring manager being how they allocate that towards roles that they might get to fill or not, or that versus consultants.
00:21:59.990 --> 00:22:02.862
Mixing that and trying to adjust as the budget might get shifted.
00:22:03.402 --> 00:22:23.616
But I'm curious, are you seeing, this is a total aside, are you seeing many of of your clients where they're looking at marketing ops as doing some additional things that I think of as it could easily become a more of a chief of staff for the marketing org role kind of roles where it's got, maybe they're helping with budgeting overall for marketing, they're helping with the quarterly planning, annual
00:22:23.817 --> 00:22:25.057
that's super interesting.
00:22:25.176 --> 00:22:25.596
yeah,
00:22:26.271 --> 00:22:35.449
you, we talk, I think you and I side bared this a couple months ago and I haven't seen, I think I haven't seen the chief of staff in the marketing function yet.
00:22:35.689 --> 00:22:37.037
I do think it's coming.
00:22:37.037 --> 00:22:53.845
The, I think a lot of that responsibility is notoriously with the VP and the CMO and, They need, they know they need this, but wouldn't it be great if there was somebody that knew about all the tools and the value that it can bring and they'd come to the executive team and say, we need the, we need this because of this.
00:22:53.845 --> 00:22:54.835
And this is the budget.
00:22:54.835 --> 00:22:55.764
And here we go.
00:22:56.365 --> 00:23:02.737
So I think, I think we talked about it two months ago before I went on my trip, but I think it's coming, it's not here yet,
00:23:02.811 --> 00:23:03.201
Yeah.
00:23:03.295 --> 00:23:05.917
I'm not seeing it consistently either, but I see it here and there.
00:23:07.163 --> 00:23:10.160
It was mostly at larger organizations, which makes sense.
00:23:10.170 --> 00:23:24.059
But I see, it feels like I'm seeing it a little more often and it may not be college chief of staff, but those that sort of helping with the budget and the planning across the marketing organization is something I'm seeing and maybe project management, things like that.
00:23:24.070 --> 00:23:24.174
I,
00:23:24.279 --> 00:23:25.779
The U the utility player.
00:23:25.785 --> 00:23:27.129
What do you call that in baseball?
00:23:27.129 --> 00:23:27.349
The
00:23:27.376 --> 00:23:27.916
That's it.
00:23:27.916 --> 00:23:28.606
I think utility
00:23:28.636 --> 00:23:29.656
I think it's a utility player.
00:23:29.656 --> 00:23:30.626
Yeah, actually
00:23:30.626 --> 00:23:32.949
Says the guy with the big football Jersey behind him.
00:23:33.594 --> 00:23:36.228
I, we have a guy here who's a D one baseball player.
00:23:36.232 --> 00:23:39.077
I've never watched a full nine innings of baseball in my whole entire life.
00:23:39.077 --> 00:23:40.716
So I can't believe I got that reference,
00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:41.470
that's awesome.
00:23:41.899 --> 00:23:44.990
I've seen this conversation come up before though.
00:23:45.061 --> 00:23:48.091
Or maybe I've just had it anecdotally or something,
00:23:48.172 --> 00:23:49.251
Probably with Michael probably,
00:23:49.456 --> 00:23:51.476
It could have been with Michael, but
00:23:51.509 --> 00:23:54.820
sure what that says about me, that I keep bringing up the same, five things
00:23:55.016 --> 00:24:06.658
no, I actually, I think it was with one of my, one of my mentors, which CEO of stack Moxie, she and I have spoken a number of times over the years and we talked about her org structure and the way that she thinks about things.
00:24:07.048 --> 00:24:11.249
And we were just riffing on this idea of like where marketing operations sits in general.
00:24:11.969 --> 00:24:14.348
And and one of the, I think it was with her.
00:24:14.874 --> 00:24:20.814
If I recall correctly, but we were talking about how marketing operations could fundamentally own like the budgets.
00:24:20.844 --> 00:24:24.829
And I said what is, you mean like demand gen budgets too, like ad spend and stuff.
00:24:24.829 --> 00:24:26.349
It's yeah, absolutely.
00:24:26.889 --> 00:24:27.855
And it makes sense.
00:24:27.855 --> 00:24:36.495
Like when, if you, they might not say how much money needs to be spent, but they could at least have oversight on where is it going right now?
00:24:36.495 --> 00:24:37.605
How is that going?
00:24:37.605 --> 00:24:40.905
And how does that get reported back to the teams that are running those budgets?
00:24:41.326 --> 00:24:42.445
Really interesting.
00:24:42.451 --> 00:24:44.010
What's interesting about that too.
00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:45.181
How many clients?
00:24:45.181 --> 00:24:49.891
I know Mike, you've done a lot of work and HubSpot for different organizations in your career.
00:24:49.943 --> 00:24:51.834
How many companies have you walked into?
00:24:52.253 --> 00:25:00.354
And there's so much tech and nobody knows what it's doing or where it's integrated to, or how you're using it, or how many processes around it.
00:25:01.118 --> 00:25:04.538
So how much money do you think is wasted on a yearly basis?
00:25:04.597 --> 00:25:06.070
You started the conversation.
00:25:06.070 --> 00:25:07.691
I used to work at ion interactive.
00:25:07.691 --> 00:25:11.213
The, one of the C the CTO was Scott Brinker who created the super graphic.
00:25:11.604 --> 00:25:20.007
So when I first started at ion it, there was 200 MarTech platforms back in 20 14, 20 15.
00:25:20.426 --> 00:25:25.359
Now there's 3000, 2000 who knows the updated version.
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:26.019
Whenever it
00:25:26.184 --> 00:25:26.754
I think it's
00:25:26.800 --> 00:25:27.161
it was like
00:25:27.685 --> 00:25:29.125
I think they're edging eight.
00:25:29.185 --> 00:25:29.516
Yeah.
00:25:29.516 --> 00:25:31.346
I think they're edging eight or 9,000
00:25:31.600 --> 00:25:41.756
how much, think of, if you had to just give a rough estimate in your head, I couldn't even tell you, but how much MarTech is bought in marketing at high growth companies.
00:25:41.756 --> 00:25:45.205
And is it really being used or is it to the most effect?
00:25:45.415 --> 00:25:45.836
Probably.
00:25:45.895 --> 00:25:46.586
Probably not.
00:25:46.588 --> 00:25:47.737
And I had met a big company.
00:25:47.737 --> 00:26:00.846
I we're in the process and I'm actually just in a business unit of a big company and it, and just within ours, we're starting to consolidate small sort of small chunks of marketing tech into my budget just to make sure it's all in one place, cuz it was scary to I.
00:26:00.916 --> 00:26:07.139
This is gonna be a slap in the face to all my friends who are like I'll call them, like marketers, demand gen and stuff like that.
00:26:07.139 --> 00:26:12.249
But my experience has been, they're actually not that great at managing budgets.
00:26:12.296 --> 00:26:13.692
They're good about thinking about right.
00:26:13.722 --> 00:26:13.932
Okay.
00:26:13.932 --> 00:26:15.232
How much do I need to spend?
00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:16.230
Where should I spend it?
00:26:16.230 --> 00:26:20.039
But then the actual keeping track of it, where are we?
00:26:20.069 --> 00:26:21.877
What do we have left in, to spend.
00:26:22.478 --> 00:26:27.269
Yeah, what are we gonna do if we get, get asked to cut or add, or do you know, shift priorities, right?
00:26:27.269 --> 00:26:35.610
That is that's something I think doesn't most of the marketers I know have not, that's not a natural thing that they seem to be really good at.
00:26:35.673 --> 00:26:35.822
But
00:26:35.822 --> 00:26:36.903
like holistically,
00:26:37.083 --> 00:26:37.623
yeah,
00:26:37.833 --> 00:26:38.103
right?
00:26:38.103 --> 00:26:42.910
Like in the platform itself it's as a demand gen and I hate using that term
00:26:43.389 --> 00:26:43.509
I
00:26:43.664 --> 00:27:12.000
demand gen is so much more than paid but for those paid, marketers out there that are managing those things, like in those platforms, You're doing a tremendous job of like constantly updating, I wanna focus on the CPL, the, all of those conversion rates, but like holistically thinking about it, across the board, you end up getting into a place where you need an operations person to pull back all that data so that you can analyze, where the spend should go next.
00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.329
Or if, to your point, like if something was to be cut back.
00:27:16.035 --> 00:27:17.355
How do you know where to cut back?
00:27:17.374 --> 00:27:18.167
All those kinds of things.
00:27:20.133 --> 00:27:20.432
All right.
00:27:20.432 --> 00:27:21.512
So sorry.
00:27:21.512 --> 00:27:23.012
I took us down that rabbit hole.
00:27:23.072 --> 00:27:26.403
We F you know, we followed Alice and let's, I'll bring it back.
00:27:26.403 --> 00:27:31.032
Max, one of the things you, and I think we also talked about when it came to, why is it so hard to hire people?
00:27:31.032 --> 00:27:36.980
Is there's I, maybe it's just a perception, but it may perception or real realistically, is it there?
00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:46.373
Is there a difference in The, the expectations or the opportunities, depending on which side you're on for candidates that are either from large organizations versus smaller ones.
00:27:46.451 --> 00:27:49.401
And the, the perception that they maybe they're exposed to more.
00:27:49.671 --> 00:27:49.850
Yeah.
00:27:49.850 --> 00:27:57.394
Smaller companies they're exposed to more of a broad set of technologies Versus large ones, or, more or less hands on things like that.
00:27:57.825 --> 00:27:58.595
Yeah, totally.
00:27:59.035 --> 00:28:03.010
I, we tend to lean towards working with smaller organizations under.
00:28:03.401 --> 00:28:06.161
2000 employees under a thousand employees.
00:28:06.850 --> 00:28:14.831
And they tend to like folks from smaller organizations because they think they're scrappier or they, can do more with less.
00:28:14.908 --> 00:28:21.391
But I think, my personal opinion, bigger organizations just want the right person, cuz they know how hard it is to hire.
00:28:21.391 --> 00:28:26.711
So if somebody shows interest, they wanna work at a larger firm, they wanna snatch them up all day.
00:28:27.310 --> 00:28:30.716
because typically smaller organ, folks from smaller organizations wear a lot of hats.
00:28:30.716 --> 00:28:35.606
We've been talking a lot about this doing multiple functions under MOS.
00:28:35.673 --> 00:28:43.699
Whereas like a bigger organization, a mops person, we've built out a Mar marketing operations function out of publicly traded company.
00:28:44.239 --> 00:28:46.219
And there was somebody for analytics.
00:28:46.219 --> 00:28:47.509
There was somebody for email.
00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:49.489
There was somebody to manage integrations.
00:28:50.148 --> 00:28:55.798
There was somebody to bridge the gap between Salesforce, the sales ops person, the marketing operations person.
00:28:56.189 --> 00:29:01.760
So we're talking, six, seven people in marketing operations, and there's some organizations that we work with.
00:29:01.760 --> 00:29:04.100
There's one marketing operations person.
00:29:04.161 --> 00:29:06.320
And it's a, and it's the director like you were talking about,
00:29:06.610 --> 00:29:06.961
Right.
00:29:07.068 --> 00:29:12.509
Do so I guess from your experience, do you see, I guess there's a difference, right?
00:29:12.513 --> 00:29:18.500
If there's a candidate who's more, more interested in smaller versus larger or anything, they're self-selecting a little bit, but
00:29:18.516 --> 00:29:19.175
absolutely.
00:29:19.370 --> 00:29:27.252
you outside of that, do you think that there really is a difference in, in that those two experiences that.
00:29:27.281 --> 00:29:32.624
If all other things be equal, which may not ever happen, that they wouldn't be as good a candidate.
00:29:32.684 --> 00:29:53.128
I think smaller org, smaller software companies 10 or smaller B2B organizations, whatever the, however you wanna say it, however you wanna skin, it tend to lean towards the smaller scrappy person because they there's this misconception that somebody from a bigger org is gonna be slower or they're just gonna be a cog in the wheel.
00:29:53.128 --> 00:29:54.368
I don't personally agree with.
00:29:54.368 --> 00:30:03.278
I think it's all about the person and, we've hired folks for our clients where it's a smaller company, but they're coming from a 10,000 person company.
00:30:03.278 --> 00:30:13.989
When we peel back the onion, they're in a startup group within the larger company that is implementing tech for the first time and they're handling that soup to nuts.
00:30:14.618 --> 00:30:18.939
So I think it really like you, you were alluding to, it really depends on the person.
00:30:19.959 --> 00:30:23.901
Yeah mean, and then it gets back to difficulty of evaluating some of those other.
00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:32.288
The characteristics or traits that are not as easy to go, I've either worked with Marketo or I haven't, or I've worked with HubSpot or I haven't.
00:30:32.288 --> 00:30:32.966
That kind of stuff.
00:30:32.966 --> 00:30:40.664
I just, for the record, I would argue that some of those companies also put more stock than they should into particular industry experience,
00:30:41.075 --> 00:30:41.365
Yeah.
00:30:41.504 --> 00:30:44.625
but that's just my own sort of bugga
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:46.106
That's a weird one for me.
00:30:46.173 --> 00:30:52.302
When it co and it falls in line with the, you don't need to be in the office, to be able to do this role.
00:30:52.326 --> 00:30:56.058
Just you don't need to like, have industry experience necessarily to do
00:30:56.808 --> 00:30:59.509
I, I think it's less industry.
00:30:59.509 --> 00:30:59.759
I.
00:30:59.788 --> 00:31:13.613
I get on calls with hiring managers and they want, we start the conversation and we want hub, Marketo Salesforce, 6 cents this, and it's here's this wishlist, but that, somebody with that wishlist is gonna just come in and say, this is what I want.
00:31:13.613 --> 00:31:16.343
And it's not gonna be the same comp that they have in mind.
00:31:16.343 --> 00:31:18.825
So there's gotta be some concessions on both sides.
00:31:18.858 --> 00:31:21.168
And that's the, what people don't tend to realize.
00:31:21.168 --> 00:31:22.519
It's yeah, you have a budget.
00:31:23.394 --> 00:31:26.884
it's probably gonna be either at market under market.
00:31:27.663 --> 00:31:30.753
And a lot of these people are so sought after right now.
00:31:31.173 --> 00:31:38.344
It's a candidate driven market, even with everything going on in the world, a lot of layoffs are happening, but you still see people are hiring.
00:31:38.433 --> 00:31:41.654
You still see the number of never Marketo jobs is through the roof.
00:31:41.654 --> 00:31:45.075
The number of account based marketing jobs is through the roof MOS.
00:31:45.075 --> 00:31:47.816
The same thing, even the marketing ops job board.
00:31:48.955 --> 00:31:52.859
Probably some of the highest job postings that you, that we, have ever had in the community.
00:31:53.339 --> 00:32:00.144
So I think, as long as this the expectations are set you just gotta hire the right person at the end of the day.
00:32:00.463 --> 00:32:01.713
Yeah, totally
00:32:01.771 --> 00:32:06.570
I, out of curiosity, because this is a timestamped kind of thing.
00:32:06.570 --> 00:32:10.471
I don't really need to know probably what the salary ranges are at this point in time.
00:32:10.471 --> 00:32:10.830
We've got
00:32:10.846 --> 00:32:11.056
Whew.
00:32:11.123 --> 00:32:12.631
How much time do you have on that?
00:32:12.915 --> 00:32:13.215
Yeah.
00:32:13.310 --> 00:32:18.752
But I am curious more holistically, you get to recruit across the country for different organizations.
00:32:18.758 --> 00:32:26.697
Have you seen the shift in the, at the line of thinking there, because look, we need the right talent and we realize that we're gonna pay them market.
00:32:28.018 --> 00:32:30.867
Regardless of where our headquarters is.
00:32:31.407 --> 00:32:32.978
Have you seen that change?
00:32:32.985 --> 00:32:40.403
We don't typically work, 98%, 99% of the jobs that we work on are a hundred percent remote.
00:32:41.094 --> 00:32:49.114
So there are areas of the country based on salary requirements that the, our clients have that we just decide not to recruit from.
00:32:49.114 --> 00:33:01.527
But besides that, it's it makes our job a lot easier if we're able to go outbound on LinkedIn, to specific people that have that expertise, because you're gonna get a choice.
00:33:02.216 --> 00:33:15.341
3 4, 5, 6 people to potentially hire versus, one or two people from Florida that have the HubSpot or Marketo experience that they're looking for because they can sit on site in a, in an office.
00:33:15.942 --> 00:33:22.705
So we shy away from even partnering with companies that have the, the remote, no remote aspect of the.
00:33:23.605 --> 00:33:23.935
Yeah.
00:33:23.965 --> 00:33:34.885
That's nice to hear in general that you're championing that, but also the key thing that I want to pull on there is that like you, your organization, your strategic decision is.
00:33:34.917 --> 00:33:39.143
And this is really a message to the hiring managers and hiring teams out there who I hope will listen to.
00:33:39.143 --> 00:33:44.153
This is that your budget is determining where talent can even be sourced from.
00:33:44.162 --> 00:33:52.599
If you're too low, like you cannot go after certain segments of the country because where they live, their cost of living is gonna be out of there.
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:52.869
So
00:33:52.990 --> 00:33:53.500
Totally.
00:33:54.009 --> 00:34:03.339
Please go look at our state of the Mo pro research and look at the average salary ranges for different roles in different company sizes so that you can set a baseline that allows you to recruit from the whole country
00:34:03.970 --> 00:34:05.379
I'll be do, I'll be doing that soon.
00:34:05.423 --> 00:34:06.096
That's coming out.
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:11.914
Just to add on that too, that I mentioned the 5,800 Marketo certified experts around the country.
00:34:12.575 --> 00:34:17.693
I think half of them, no maybe a third of them are in the bay area.
00:34:17.702 --> 00:34:40.400
You know what like bay area and Washington a company in Georgia or Tennessee or Florida, not only we're talking, not only are we talking about time zone differences, like a lot of our clients that are in Florida typically or New York or Chicago, or they Boston, they, even though that, they're open to the remote piece, they kinda the have them on the same time zone so that we can work same hours.
00:34:40.465 --> 00:34:48.153
Because obviously if it's a Northeast based company and most of their cl most of their employees are in the Northeast, it's gonna be hard to hire somebody to run.
00:34:48.858 --> 00:34:52.158
That's three hours behind and they're one of the only people on that team.
00:34:52.488 --> 00:34:56.208
So here's where Michael and I are both gonna push back on this one.
00:34:56.483 --> 00:34:56.993
Like I.
00:34:58.608 --> 00:35:12.420
so if I was a marketing ops person, who's been doing this for a little while and I guess I have now I will say there is a distinct advantage to the company, not to the employee.
00:35:12.765 --> 00:35:16.695
To the company to have somebody on a slightly different offset time zone.
00:35:17.325 --> 00:35:23.205
And the reason for that is that marketing ops people need quiet time to go do the.
00:35:23.297 --> 00:35:23.567
That's the,
00:35:24.197 --> 00:35:25.697
constantly with requests.
00:35:25.787 --> 00:35:26.627
It'll never end.
00:35:26.627 --> 00:35:30.767
The backlog is always getting filled up and something is always a high priority.
00:35:30.977 --> 00:35:43.731
But if there's a chance that you could be working at three o'clock and it's six, o'clock where your headquarters is, that's a huge win cuz you got about three hours of downtime where hopefully there are, at least 80% less
00:35:43.865 --> 00:35:47.646
I assume you met three, I assume you met 3:00 PM, but it could be 3:00 AM too.
00:35:47.650 --> 00:35:48.400
If that's how you.
00:35:49.465 --> 00:35:49.915
Sure.
00:35:49.915 --> 00:35:50.275
Yeah.
00:35:50.335 --> 00:35:51.385
I meant three P
00:35:51.446 --> 00:35:55.919
That's a good snippet for cuz you guys know I'm not a, I'm not a Mar marketing ops person.
00:35:55.919 --> 00:36:01.169
I just interface a lot with hiring managers at hire mops and mops, people that are looking for jobs.
00:36:01.409 --> 00:36:04.595
So that's a good talking point for me when I'm talking to customers
00:36:04.670 --> 00:36:05.980
I think it's a selling point.
00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:08.461
Like you should consider this candidate because here's.
00:36:09.197 --> 00:36:09.497
yeah,
00:36:09.586 --> 00:36:16.067
this is potentially what they could be getting of providing value back to your organization because they've got the time to go focus.
00:36:16.067 --> 00:36:16.247
Yeah.
00:36:16.286 --> 00:36:22.916
If to me, if that was the only thing was that they're off by two or three hours and they were absolutely to your point, right?
00:36:22.916 --> 00:36:24.176
They were the right person.
00:36:24.836 --> 00:36:25.736
There's two options.
00:36:25.796 --> 00:36:29.726
Like one, you just let them flex their, like them flex their hours to what works for them.
00:36:29.726 --> 00:36:35.150
And, if there's meetings that need to happen that are off out of their normal hours.
00:36:35.420 --> 00:36:36.140
So be it right.
00:36:36.140 --> 00:36:37.190
They also have to live with it.
00:36:37.460 --> 00:36:40.940
Or you ask them to work the same hours as the majority of the other people.
00:36:41.510 --> 00:36:46.057
Which means there means they start late or they get done early, or I think a lot of people would be willing to do that.
00:36:46.086 --> 00:36:47.167
I will add even that.
00:36:47.167 --> 00:36:57.982
So both of my last, my current role and my last role, I've had pretty much teams either direct or through consultants kind of people all over.
00:36:58.012 --> 00:36:59.632
So I'm in the middle of the country in Dallas.
00:36:59.632 --> 00:37:01.592
Right now I've got people in the east coast.
00:37:01.592 --> 00:37:02.882
I've got people on the west coast.
00:37:03.707 --> 00:37:04.900
Hire another person up east.
00:37:05.037 --> 00:37:17.517
And then I've got consultants in Europe and that actually, that, that has been super beneficial when we've got late, kinda late coming stuff coming in that needs to be reviewed in QA or something for marketing teams.
00:37:17.591 --> 00:37:20.051
So that person can kind, they'll be up the overnight.
00:37:20.561 --> 00:37:21.581
It gets reviewed.
00:37:22.001 --> 00:37:22.781
We're ready to go.
00:37:23.531 --> 00:37:27.285
So I think there's some it doesn't work for every team or every organization.
00:37:27.285 --> 00:37:29.715
I get it, especially if there's a sort of a cultural component to it.
00:37:29.715 --> 00:37:32.890
That's gonna eject people who don't, match that.
00:37:32.890 --> 00:37:36.640
But I think it can be, it can work to your advantage if you're hiring manager.
00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:37.450
All right.
00:37:37.450 --> 00:37:42.495
So I brought up consultants and Mike, you alluded to it, I think in tongue in cheek a little bit, but seriously.
00:37:43.065 --> 00:37:52.148
So given the challenges of the market as hiring managers or the high expectations of individual people with span of scope of their roles.
00:37:52.628 --> 00:38:00.284
Max, what do you think is, do you think it's a good option to look at consultants or contractors or freelancers to help fill in the gaps
00:38:00.317 --> 00:38:00.827
Yeah.
00:38:00.887 --> 00:38:05.207
Or even, yeah, consultants, freelancers, even consulting agencies as well.
00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:06.700
I know there's a lot out there.
00:38:06.700 --> 00:38:21.445
Just to be able to give you the voice of reason, especially if the marketing leaders aren't leaning more towards the MarTech stock, maybe they're more demand gen focused or corporate marketing focused, or, I think it makes a lot of sense, especially if you're looking at implementing new tools.
00:38:22.644 --> 00:38:23.842
six senses is a big one.
00:38:23.872 --> 00:38:31.172
I know a lot of people I saw something that six senses was one of the Mo the top 10 most bought software all of this year.
00:38:31.742 --> 00:38:34.418
So how many people, you guys know how quick they're growing.
00:38:34.479 --> 00:38:41.589
Being able to partner with a consultant, that's done it, done 10 implementations or 20 implementations, and can help you figure that out.
00:38:41.665 --> 00:38:45.115
It's gonna, it's gonna save you a lot of time and money and energy in the long.
00:38:48.120 --> 00:38:48.600
Got it.
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.080
Yeah.
00:38:49.108 --> 00:38:50.612
I've had good luck with that too.
00:38:50.612 --> 00:38:51.752
Mike, you say something.
00:38:51.987 --> 00:38:57.182
I was just gonna say, yeah, I have to advocate for that a bit these types of go-to market motions.
00:38:57.482 --> 00:39:03.637
I think something as specific as like an ABM, for example Really is like there's tools.
00:39:03.637 --> 00:39:13.146
And then there's the people that need to project manage and see every last little detail of that all the way through leveraging the technology and all the little touch points that go into that.
00:39:13.776 --> 00:39:16.056
There, there's no way to replace that.
00:39:16.506 --> 00:39:24.454
If there isn't someone that is like wholly owning that function and their whole purpose is to make that thing successful.
00:39:24.454 --> 00:39:25.256
You will.
00:39:25.841 --> 00:39:30.184
Quickly see a lack of return on the investment in an ABM effort.
00:39:30.184 --> 00:39:37.233
So like just, those are really good moments to like tap into someone who's already done something and hopefully has a track record of success.
00:39:38.163 --> 00:39:38.373
Yeah.
00:39:38.373 --> 00:39:42.809
And I've not only done that for like specific expertise and say a tool.
00:39:43.874 --> 00:39:44.384
That kinda stuff.
00:39:44.384 --> 00:39:54.473
I've also just and I've been lucky that I've happened to have engaged with several, good firms where they provide an extension of the team.
00:39:54.473 --> 00:40:02.944
They're doing ongoing work and it's, it can either be project based or it could be just, Hey know we've got a high volume of, operational stuff this coming month.
00:40:02.996 --> 00:40:03.806
Can you help us out?
00:40:03.865 --> 00:40:05.910
So big fan of that as.
00:40:07.215 --> 00:40:10.064
Max any final thoughts before we wrap this up?
00:40:12.044 --> 00:40:16.546
Oh I think I really appreciate the open-endedness of that one.
00:40:16.636 --> 00:40:17.976
We can go down a lot of rabbit holes.
00:40:18.066 --> 00:40:18.365
I
00:40:18.486 --> 00:40:19.566
the you're on the clock, Max?
00:40:19.566 --> 00:40:20.076
No, I'm kidding.
00:40:20.946 --> 00:40:23.556
no, no shameless, no plugs here.
00:40:23.583 --> 00:40:29.723
Obviously the biggest challenge I think that hiring managers are facing is not talking to enough candidates.
00:40:30.113 --> 00:40:36.113
So whether you're gonna work with a recruiter, you have your internal team, you're working with external recruiters.
00:40:36.141 --> 00:40:42.632
It's all about being on the same page for what you're looking for and similar titles or similar people that can do the job.
00:40:42.702 --> 00:40:50.082
The average time right now to fill these roles is three to six months, which is a ridiculous amount of time to have that seat open.
00:40:50.204 --> 00:40:52.754
I know just it's that's the reality, right?
00:40:53.744 --> 00:40:54.224
right.
00:40:54.314 --> 00:41:03.371
So if that is a reality, there's a couple really good marketing technology, recruiting companies, not just, not just ours in the market that can help bridge that gap.
00:41:04.031 --> 00:41:07.832
Most recruiting agencies are able to, fill pipeline in 72 hours.
00:41:07.864 --> 00:41:17.377
If you have the budget partner with folks like us, there's, I can name five off the top of my head that specialize in this, seek them out and ask for assistance.
00:41:18.562 --> 00:41:18.982
Yep.
00:41:19.342 --> 00:41:20.182
Amen to that.
00:41:20.407 --> 00:41:20.797
Yeah.
00:41:20.897 --> 00:41:23.293
Alright, I know you, you were trying to avoid the shameless plug.
00:41:23.293 --> 00:41:25.033
I'm gonna give you the opportunity now to do that.
00:41:25.033 --> 00:41:30.447
So if folks wanna connect with you and pick your brain or engage with you guys, what's the best way for them to
00:41:30.597 --> 00:41:34.455
Yeah, I LinkedIn I'm on LinkedIn all day long in my life.
00:41:34.465 --> 00:41:43.606
Give me a shout on LinkedIn, Max span your Would love to have conversations with anybody about recruiting, marketing operations, or craft beer and big craft beer guy.
00:41:44.056 --> 00:41:46.080
And it's four, four o'clock on a Friday.
00:41:46.080 --> 00:41:48.184
So I need to need to go for my first right now.
00:41:48.379 --> 00:41:48.679
There you
00:41:48.798 --> 00:41:49.459
you go.
00:41:49.489 --> 00:41:50.209
I love it.
00:41:50.329 --> 00:41:51.961
Oh, where're the thing keeping you from that?
00:41:51.961 --> 00:41:53.042
I don't know if that's a good thing.
00:41:53.447 --> 00:41:53.687
Yeah.
00:41:53.687 --> 00:41:59.387
Speaking of time zone differences, it's one o'clock here and I'm like, man, I still have a whole day ahead of me.
00:42:00.287 --> 00:42:00.887
there you go.
00:42:01.067 --> 00:42:02.677
Thanks so much guys, for having me.
00:42:03.167 --> 00:42:05.057
I appreciate Max Mike as always.
00:42:05.057 --> 00:42:05.836
Thank you.
00:42:05.842 --> 00:42:12.317
And I know we'll see Naomi again here soon, but, and then to all of our listeners out there, thank you for continuing to support us.
00:42:12.347 --> 00:42:16.710
And as always we're looking for your feedback, ideas for topics and guests.
00:42:16.710 --> 00:42:18.510
So send'em our way.
00:42:19.545 --> 00:42:20.085
With that.
00:42:20.175 --> 00:42:20.805
It's a wrap.
00:42:20.925 --> 00:42:21.644
See you next time.
