Survey Says: Part Three

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All right, we're recording.
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett, and I am here with world traveler Ian Wilkes.
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Ian, how are you, sir?
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I'm doing real
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well, Jim.
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Thank you.
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I'm just out here traveling the world, but kind of, I'm just in the next province to the right, to the east.
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Okay, so that's just another part of the 51st state because Donald Trump is taking
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over Canada, right?
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Well, he wants to.
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I'm in Alberta.
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I'm in Calgary.
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I'm on Mountain Time, same time as you.
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There's no chance of Canada joining America, in my opinion, and I think that's shared widely across Canada.
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However, here's the kingmaker.
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Alberta, which recently the premier of Alberta, the provincial leader, broke off.
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from the unified position of the other premiers across Canada and went to see Donald Trump personally in Florida about two weeks ago.
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And if there's any or ever a fit between the United States and a province which is energy rich, the most energy rich province in Canada, it would be Alberta.
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So economically, and from an oil and gas perspective, and I work in the oil and gas sector, that's one of the sectors I work in, and the conservative republic thinking that Alberta has, which is very different to other parts of Canada, there's a really good fit, the saying, between Alberta and the United States.
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So it's going to happen.
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It would mean Alberta breaking off from Canada and bringing all that energy and all those resources under the umbrella and the auspice of the United States.
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And that could happen because Alberta politically is very disenfranchised with Ottawa, with the federal government.
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They've even created the Alberta Sovereign Act.
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This allows Alberta as a province to pretty much do most things, not defense or tax, nothing like that, but a lot of other stuff it can do autonomously without the involvement or interference of Ottawa, which she does not like at all and can't stand at all.
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Trudeau, who just recently resigned.
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So, Alberta joining America?
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Yes, I see it.
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Canada joining America?
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No.
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And America doesn't want Canada because a lot of it is socialistic and that doesn't fit with a lot of people, I think, right now who are leading the charge, I guess, in the United States.
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So that's a quick political response to that.
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Well, let's hope nobody in Washington is listening to this because they might get some ideas.
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If you're in Washington, just ignore what I just said.
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There we go.
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Well, so we have, we began a few weeks ago answering this survey that the church put out, just as a reminder.
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And we got to the end of our first episode where we were talking about the survey and we had barely made a dent in the questions.
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And so we decided we would do a second episode to finish.
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And we didn't even get halfway through the with that second episode.
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So there are still a whole bunch of survey questions.
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So I think we need to just sort of plow through the questions that aren't that interesting, answer more concisely what we're doing.
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But we want to conclude this because I think that these are fascinating questions.
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They give us tremendous insight into how the church is thinking, into how the membership of the church is responding, to what's happening in the world around them.
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And it's really fascinating to sort of get that window into the mind of the brethren.
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And so we're going to pick up where we left off.
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So without further ado, I'm going to bring up the questions.
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And we're starting to get into some really interesting ones.
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This is stuff about marriage and the family.
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And so the way these questions are structured, just as a reminder, is you read a statement.
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And then you have the choice as to say, I agree with this statement.
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I'm not sure if I agree with the statement.
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I do not agree with this statement.
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Or I guess they phrase it as I believe this statement or I do not believe this statement.
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So I'm going to read the statement and I want to hear if you believe, not sure if you believe, or if you don't believe.
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Sounds good.
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All right.
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So here we go.
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Getting married in the temple for eternity is a commandment.
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Believe, don't believe.
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I don't believe that.
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I know the church teaches, believes that.
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I know many rank and file members believe that.
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Okay.
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It's really weird to phrase it that way because when we talk about commandments, I'm not sure how I answered this.
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I think I may have said this.
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This is one of the few where I might have said I'm not sure because the way we talk about commandments is This is something you have to do or you're in serious trouble.
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And this isn't like committing adultery.
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Not committing adultery is a commandment.
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Although I guess the church would say you're limiting your eternal progress if you don't get married in the temple.
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But what's interesting are the follow-up questions.
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The next one says having children is a commandment.
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Do you agree with that or don't agree with that?
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No, the church teaches it's a commandment.
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We were taught it's a commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.
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It's actually in the temple.
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It's a commandment.
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It is, absolutely.
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I don't believe that, but it is.
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And by the way, on the first one, and I know we're going to skip through these real quick, but the first one, you can't inherit eternal life without being married and sealed in the temple.
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So you are damned if you don't go to the temple and get sealed.
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Or if you're not married or sealed in this life, that option is open to you, I guess, in the next life.
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But to get to the highest kingdom, you have to be sealed in the temple.
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But the second one, I don't believe having children is a commandment, no.
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Well, I think you're right in that the temple ceremony, when you are sealed, part of the sealing ordinance is a command to, I say unto you, multiply and replenish the earth.
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So they tell you to have children when you are sealed.
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What I think is interesting about all of these is that what we're finding, I think, in the rising generation is a reluctance or a disinterest in commandments, in the idea of being commanded, in the idea of I have to do this, I have to obey.
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And this really resonated, I think, with our generation.
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But the younger generation is like, oh, no, I'm not going to get married in the temple if I don't want to.
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No, I'm not going to have children if I don't want to.
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And so I think the church is kind of scrambling because the scare tactics aren't working.
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The idea, oh, you have to.
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This is a commandment.
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So what?
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I'll do what I want to do.
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I agree.
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I agree.
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Go ahead.
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Well, I mean, I just think that's how Gen Z and millennials are sort of wired.
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You're seeing it across the board, not just in the church, but there's a real reluctance to embrace the kind of centralized and I'd even say authoritarian structure that was just sort of taken for granted by generations before.
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Because the next question is interesting.
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Having a lot of children is a commandment.
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Can I make a quick
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comment on what you just said?
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Sure.
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I know it'll be quick here.
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Two things.
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We said that there's a purpose, there's an objective behind these questions.
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Certainly, right?
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Secondly, if you look at that other question, having a lot of children is a commandment.
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Well, two things on that.
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One, I think the younger generation, to your point, are interpreting it very differently.
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I think they're taking a soft approach.
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And secondly, Jim, where is the growth going to come from, from the church?
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Not coming from...
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from convert baptisms.
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It's not coming from traditional conventional missionary efforts.
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We know it's going to, and they have to measure growth.
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We know growth, or some of it, has to come from people having kids.
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They're having smaller families.
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They're having big families anymore because it's expensive.
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And I think this is a church putting out a feeler in terms of where people are in regards to having a lot of children.
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I think it's a very strategic question.
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Who do you want?
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I think you're absolutely right.
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And I think...
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40 years ago.
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I don't know if I even agree with that when I got married.
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But the expectation growing up was, yeah, I came from a family of six kids in Southern California in the 1970s.
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And none of my friends, unless they were members of the church, had families anywhere near that big.
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All of my friends came from families with one or two kids, sometimes three kids.
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And Three kids was like a really big family.
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And when people found out I came from a family of six kids, it was really strange.
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But the expectation in the 60s and 70s, and I think all through most of the 20th century anyway, it was that you had to have as many kids as the way my mother described it was, you should have as many kids as you can handle.
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which I always thought was a very strange way to put it, and I couldn't find any sort of prophetic edict that said a similar thing, but that was sort of the cultural expectation.
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And the whole idea of birth control, the church was very adamantly against birth control for several decades, and they have quietly sort of shelled that, and now they say that birth control is between a husband and a wife, and they leave that alone.
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But there are statements by David O.
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McKay that talk about the slime of sensual indulgence that birth control creates because you just have sex just because you enjoy it, when you should be having sex, to make sure you have kids.
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And that has gone by the wayside.
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And in fact, that went by the wayside fairly quickly.
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I think before I was born even, because I know President Kimball made the famous statement about, we know of no directive from heaven that sex is only for procreation, which was something much more progressive than a lot of the other things that President Kimball said about sex.
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These next two questions are really weird to me.
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I agree.
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God loves his daughters, but not his sons.
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God loves his sons, but not his daughters.
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Is there anybody that would answer that they agree
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with that?
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It's just odd questions, very stupid questions.
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Now, we know this questionnaire was posted two or three weeks ago, right?
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I kind of flagged this up too.
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I think it was me that flagged it.
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You then looked at it.
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It was open to anyone that could take it, right?
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Anyone, member or non-member, it was open to the public.
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Then it shut down.
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The link stopped working.
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And I think these questions are one of probably several reasons why they shut this question, this survey questionnaire down.
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Because those questions are odd.
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Why would you ask those questions?
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What purpose?
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What's behind those questions?
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It's very strange.
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Well, the last question on this page is, I think is actually an interesting question.
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God loves me.
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And I would answer, yes, I agree with that.
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But a lot of my faith struggles over the course of my life have not necessarily been, what if there is no God?
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But rather, what if God is a jerk?
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What if God loves other people but doesn't love me?
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That God plays favorites?
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You can look at the world and see evil rewarded and good people, no good deed goes unpunished.
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You can see the injustice in the world and you can conclude that maybe God loves some people more than others.
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Now I've sort of come to terms with this now and kind of reached a point where I don't measure God's love in a transactional way.
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The idea that somebody else is richer than I am is not a sign that God loves them more than they love me.
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The fact that somebody deals with a chronic illness, the fact that somebody is living in poverty, the fact that somebody has lost a parent and is an orphan, all the terrible things that can happen in real life, I sort of had to confront a lot of that.
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When my daughter was injured and I realized just how transactional my thinking of God is.
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But I think a lot of people measure God's love by what they perceive as God's blessings.
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And if there aren't enough blessings, I think it's very possible to reach a point where you say, yeah, I believe in God.
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I don't believe God loves me.
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Because I was sort of there for a while.
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I'm not there now.
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But does that make any sense?
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How would you respond to that?
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Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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I hope God loves me.
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I believe he does.
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I do not understand God.
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I don't understand a God who can go to great lengths.
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And there's an example that President Monson talked about in a conference speech a while back where a whole series of connections were made.
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So someone who was I think they were dying, actually, sadly, and they wanted to taste some fresh bread that a friend was making.
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You and I have talked about this on the podcast.
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He goes to great lengths to help you find your keys.
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And I've heard those stories.
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Elder Manson, sorry, is it Mattson?
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Sorry.
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Hans Mattson.
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I want to get his name right.
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talked about uh some examples where the lord goes to great lengths to help what seems to be the most uh the simple things you know like finding keys or finding someone's lost yet he won't save a child's life or you know save someone from cancer or save someone from a an injury uh and so i don't i believe he loves me i i hope he does i don't understand him or her And I think he's in a bit of a pickle because, or she is, because we have a lot of problems and I'm wondering if or not he can get involved or does his own laws prevent him from demonstrating that love that we think he has or hope he has in a more direct kind of way and kind of help us out of the problems that we've got on the planet, on the earth with all the issues and these other laws and that he's made restricting him from helping us when we need him the most.
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So I don't understand him or her.
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All right.
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That's fair.
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Well, so now we dive into a lot of questions about marriage.
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The next one says, in a relationship or marriage, both partners need to listen to each other and freely come to an agreement about what to do.
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Do you agree with that?
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Yes.
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I do too.
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And it's interesting that they would ask that because there is a lot of emphasis historically in the church on the idea of the man presiding in the home.
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And there are Christian sects and denominations that have wrestled with this.
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I'm thinking about a group called the Promise Keepers.
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You ever heard of the Promise Keepers?
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I have not.
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They were...
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big active Christian group where they talked about Christian marriage and how men need to devote themselves and they would quote Paul who talks about women subject yourselves to your husbands wives submit to your husbands and husbands submit to Christ as Christ submitted to the church or something like that I'm butchering that but so what they pointed out was yes it's equal until there's a tie between And then the man breaks the tie.
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The man is the presider.
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The man is the one who has the final say.
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And I think that has been the model in the church, whether it's been spoken, and I think it has been explicitly spoken.
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Now it's not spoken as explicitly, but it's still there.
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Because when they changed the temple ceremony to have Eve talk directly to both Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, Everybody went, okay, now she's equal to Adam.
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Yet at the same time, they changed the sealing ceremony and added the word preside to the idea that the husband presides over the family.
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The proclamation on the family that is still used as sort of the gold standard of what the church stands for today has that in there too.
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It talks about how the husband is to preside.
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So This model of a relationship where both partners need to listen to each other and freely come to an agreement about what to do, I absolutely agree with that.
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I can't imagine a marriage succeeding without that, at least not a marriage that I would want to be part of.
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I would not want to have a wife that didn't feel like she was an equal partner and had an equal say.
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So the next one says, if you do not have sex before marriage...
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and you marry in the temple for eternity, then your family will not have any serious problems.
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Do you agree or disagree?
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I disagree.
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I'm glad you read that, because the print's small, and I thought you were saying...
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I thought the question was...
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There you go.
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You made the print bigger.
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I thought it said, if you do not have lots of sex before marriage, and you marry in the temple for eternity, then your family will not have any serious problems.
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No, I don't believe that.
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I think you...
00:19:23.298 --> 00:19:25.240
You can have sex or not have sex before marriage.
00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:25.780
It's up to you.
00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:28.182
It doesn't mean you're not going to have any problems.
00:19:29.704 --> 00:19:30.085
Yeah.
00:19:30.444 --> 00:19:33.448
I mean, there's a lot of this kind of magical thinking, though, in the church.
00:19:33.888 --> 00:19:40.375
I actually would very much like to see what percentage of people answered this and said that they agree with this.
00:19:40.955 --> 00:19:46.882
Because if you'd asked me this before my marriage, I would have said, no, I don't agree with it.
00:19:47.663 --> 00:19:50.846
But I think secretly I did agree with it to some degree.
00:19:51.266 --> 00:20:03.519
You get this idea that living the gospel, being righteous, it's this transactional relationship with God where he's going to, you're not going to have any problems if you're good.
00:20:03.538 --> 00:20:07.963
I don't know if I would have tied it specifically to sex, but
00:20:09.005 --> 00:20:09.286
anyway.
00:20:10.126 --> 00:20:12.950
I want to have one more thing.
00:20:12.990 --> 00:20:24.585
It's interesting about the sex thing there, but I would argue there is a case, I don't know any studies here, but I'm sure they exist, that You don't know anyone unless you will live with them.
00:20:25.506 --> 00:20:26.027
You don't really.
00:20:26.067 --> 00:20:33.055
In the church, you only live with the person after you get married and you only have sex after you get married.
00:20:33.855 --> 00:20:37.199
You've not lived with them or anyone before you get married.
00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:43.125
Different backgrounds, different perspectives, the whole, you may be compatible, you may not be.
00:20:43.145 --> 00:20:58.068
I would argue that there's some advantages and benefits for living with someone including having sex and living in the same house, to determine whether they are a compatible fit or not.
00:20:59.109 --> 00:21:06.217
And I suspect there's a lot of people that after they get married, they think within a few weeks or a few months, what the hell have I done?
00:21:06.257 --> 00:21:07.637
If only we'd lived together.
00:21:07.657 --> 00:21:12.762
And then they're stuck in the church if it's not working.
00:21:13.544 --> 00:21:15.546
Because they've entered into a covenant in the temple.
00:21:16.006 --> 00:21:17.688
So they've got to make it work.
00:21:18.388 --> 00:21:25.525
And if there's some serious problems, And by the way, this is where I've been involved as a bishop, where there's been abuse going on.
00:21:26.506 --> 00:21:30.130
But because they put the covenants first, they've tolerated the abuse.
00:21:31.231 --> 00:21:33.714
And the woman has been putting up with the abuse.
00:21:34.635 --> 00:21:37.599
And the bishops or leaders said, well, you're sealed in the temple.
00:21:38.099 --> 00:21:38.621
You're married.
00:21:38.681 --> 00:21:39.682
You've got to make it work.
00:21:40.163 --> 00:21:41.865
You make it work no matter.
00:21:42.385 --> 00:21:43.748
My advice was not that.
00:21:43.988 --> 00:21:48.794
In some of the cases, some of the instances, my advice was leave, get out of there.
00:21:49.986 --> 00:22:04.165
So, you know, you get married, you get seen in the temple and when they're committed, the members are committed and devoted and really committed and they're trapped.
00:22:04.967 --> 00:22:06.328
Even if it's not working or they're not happy.
00:22:07.109 --> 00:22:09.692
My advice is, nope, you get out.
00:22:10.094 --> 00:22:12.678
If it's abusive, if you're not happy, try and make it work.
00:22:13.218 --> 00:22:15.240
If you're not compatible, you tried everything in the book.
00:22:16.303 --> 00:22:18.566
You know, it's possible to love the wrong person.
00:22:19.778 --> 00:22:23.943
You can love or be in love with the wrong
00:22:24.124 --> 00:22:25.507
person, right?
00:22:25.707 --> 00:22:33.858
The unwillingness to have sex before marriage means that a lot of very young couples get married.
00:22:33.959 --> 00:22:38.746
I remember talking to a woman who had left the church, but she got married very young.
00:22:40.048 --> 00:22:43.773
And she had eight children before she left.
00:22:44.434 --> 00:22:48.820
And she said to me, I thought I was in love.
00:22:48.840 --> 00:22:51.124
I didn't realize I was just horny.
00:22:52.365 --> 00:22:52.925
Oh, that's funny.
00:22:53.125 --> 00:22:53.567
That's funny.
00:22:54.367 --> 00:22:56.069
But there's a lot of that.
00:22:56.109 --> 00:23:14.715
There's a lot of this, you know, you have this magical thinking that's, okay, my entire life I've been told that this is the pinnacle of my faith, that if I get married in the temple, that I've arrived, that I've done everything I'm supposed to do, and then I just endure to the end.
00:23:14.736 --> 00:23:21.853
And People get married in the temple, and they discover that there's a whole lot, and they're just beginning.
00:23:21.893 --> 00:23:23.674
It's not the end.
00:23:23.694 --> 00:23:27.901
It's the beginning of a lifetime of trying to build a life together.
00:23:28.662 --> 00:23:30.683
And it's difficult under any circumstance.
00:23:30.743 --> 00:23:32.747
It doesn't matter if you're married in the temple or not.
00:23:33.367 --> 00:23:40.017
And there are people who get married outside the temple who have wonderful marriages, and there are people who get married in the temple who have terrible marriages.
00:23:40.717 --> 00:23:41.117
Totally.
00:23:41.314 --> 00:23:42.394
I totally agree.
00:23:42.775 --> 00:23:47.980
And there are people in the church, in the temple, and I know this firsthand, where he or she has had an affair.
00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.243
The counsel they've received in the past is, no matter, you forgive him or forgive her.
00:23:52.284 --> 00:23:55.768
Even if it's happened a few times, you forgive, you forgive, because it's a temple marriage.
00:23:56.448 --> 00:23:57.950
My advice was not that.
00:23:58.069 --> 00:24:03.894
I said, if you make it work, if you give, great, but you really need to think very carefully about whether you can trust this person again.
00:24:03.934 --> 00:24:10.821
And if it happens again and again, my advice is, well, you make the choice in the end, but you get out.
00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:17.738
If they can't commit to those covenants, you know, then you need to think twice.
00:24:17.817 --> 00:24:25.606
So, yeah, I think there's a lot of people in the church or many people in the church who feel they've got to make it work no matter.
00:24:26.208 --> 00:24:30.272
And they end up being very sad for their entire life.
00:24:31.034 --> 00:24:35.078
They don't find the person who's more compatible or they can be in love with.
00:24:35.118 --> 00:24:38.182
And they're stuck with this person.
00:24:38.222 --> 00:24:41.086
And I think that's a terrible thing.
00:24:41.602 --> 00:24:52.358
loss to one's own freedom and authenticity and finding who you are and being yourself in life.
00:24:53.140 --> 00:25:03.035
And I think the church, the temple locks people in permanently where they feel that no matter what happens in the marriage, you have to make it work no matter.
00:25:03.955 --> 00:25:06.279
And I don't buy into that any more.
00:25:07.481 --> 00:25:08.202
No, I don't either.
00:25:09.104 --> 00:25:16.471
I do think that A temple marriage does bring with it a certain degree of heightened responsibility.
00:25:16.510 --> 00:25:23.961
At the same time, it does not bring a license for abuse, which I think is what you're describing.
00:25:26.065 --> 00:25:33.836
In other words, when you get married in the temple, you should be taking this very, very seriously and not very lightly.
00:25:33.856 --> 00:25:47.144
But if even Christ himself, when he talked about divorce— We don't live the standard of marriage and divorce that's outlined by Jesus himself in the New Testament.
00:25:47.763 --> 00:25:53.369
Because he said that if you marry someone who's divorced or if you get a divorce, you're committing adultery.
00:25:54.009 --> 00:25:58.694
But he offered one exception to that, which was adultery.
00:26:00.717 --> 00:26:10.605
If you get divorced for any reason other than adultery, then according to the words of the synoptic gospels, you're committing adultery.
00:26:11.298 --> 00:26:18.068
But if your spouse is unfaithful, even Jesus in the New Testament says it's okay to get a divorce.
00:26:19.351 --> 00:26:21.012
So anyway, all right.
00:26:21.113 --> 00:26:23.297
So this next one is also very interesting.
00:26:24.218 --> 00:26:31.209
All good people will have eternal families, even if they choose to marry only for this life.
00:26:31.288 --> 00:26:32.050
Do you agree with that?
00:26:33.653 --> 00:26:39.102
All good people will have eternal families, even if they choose to marry only for this life.
00:26:39.970 --> 00:26:41.171
I didn't used to believe that.
00:26:41.372 --> 00:26:42.172
I do believe it now.
00:26:42.532 --> 00:26:46.777
I think love transcends anything the church teaches.
00:26:47.097 --> 00:26:49.539
This priesthood authority, this being sealed in the temple.
00:26:49.580 --> 00:27:02.714
I believe that people outside the church can marry enough children and they can be with their families forever without the temple.
00:27:03.395 --> 00:27:04.115
Without the temple.
00:27:05.077 --> 00:27:06.538
Even if they marry for this life.
00:27:06.558 --> 00:27:17.823
So if they become married in the Church of England, which is till death do us part, or in the Catholic church, I believe that their marriage and their family can continue in the eternities forever.
00:27:17.863 --> 00:27:28.898
I no longer accept or believe in or buy the teaching from the church that you can only be with your family if you're sealed in the temple and you keep going to church in the Mormon faith.
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:30.362
So, long answer.
00:27:32.965 --> 00:27:34.807
Yeah,
00:27:34.827 --> 00:27:35.750
there's my response.
00:27:36.912 --> 00:27:38.193
I appreciate that response.
00:27:38.721 --> 00:27:46.434
The reason I think this question is so interesting is because we would go out and tell people as missionaries, your family can be together forever.
00:27:47.998 --> 00:27:57.733
And I have since talked to people who point out that we're the only people who teach your family may not be together forever.
00:27:58.255 --> 00:28:01.099
You know, we don't say your family will be together forever.
00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:04.705
You say your family can be, but it's conditional.
00:28:05.314 --> 00:28:06.776
You have to do this thing.
00:28:06.836 --> 00:28:08.419
You have to get married in the temple.
00:28:08.459 --> 00:28:17.471
You have to do all of these, take all of these steps, otherwise your family will not be together in the next life.
00:28:17.811 --> 00:28:27.105
And I have since found that most people outside the church envision a life in the eternities with their families.
00:28:27.686 --> 00:28:36.153
It doesn't occur to them that God would separate them based on some kind of ordinance or any other kind of thing.
00:28:36.192 --> 00:28:42.579
The way I look at this now is I still respect priesthood authority.
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:48.767
I still embrace the importance of the temple ritual.
00:28:48.787 --> 00:28:57.737
I also embrace the universality at the core of temple worship.
00:28:58.478 --> 00:29:01.682
In other words, yes, this is true.
00:29:02.145 --> 00:29:16.567
All good people will have eternal families, even if they choose to marry only for this life, because they will have the opportunity, they will have that work done for them, either in this life or in the next.
00:29:17.388 --> 00:29:28.266
I am a universalist in that I believe even if somebody ends up going to the telestial kingdom, eventually they get to where they need to be.
00:29:28.577 --> 00:29:31.481
Eternity is a very, very, very long time.
00:29:32.042 --> 00:29:33.525
And this is what Bruce R.
00:29:33.566 --> 00:29:42.298
McConkie has called one of the seven deadly heresies, this idea that there is progression between kingdoms, that you can continue to progress.
00:29:42.880 --> 00:29:43.701
But Bruce R.
00:29:43.740 --> 00:29:52.394
McConkie is on one side of that argument, and there are many brethren who are on the other side of the argument.
00:29:52.897 --> 00:29:53.999
I'm pretty sure James E.
00:29:54.038 --> 00:29:56.000
Talmadge was on the other side of that argument.
00:29:56.080 --> 00:29:57.162
And I think that there are others.
00:29:57.182 --> 00:29:59.584
I think Daniel Widsow's on the other side of that argument.
00:29:59.944 --> 00:30:09.433
Anyway, so the point is, we tend to scare people and say, okay, if you don't get married in the temple in this life, you're going to lose your family.
00:30:10.815 --> 00:30:13.978
And the older I get, the more ridiculous that is to me.
00:30:14.699 --> 00:30:26.761
Because even you can still respect the authority of the temple and also recognize that that God loves all of his children and will find a way for all of them to return to him.
00:30:27.522 --> 00:30:28.163
I agree.
00:30:28.844 --> 00:30:29.845
Yeah, I agree with all that.
00:30:30.045 --> 00:30:31.066
By the way, I want to say this.
00:30:31.086 --> 00:30:32.667
I did something years ago.
00:30:32.688 --> 00:30:38.634
I said something years ago that I'm very deeply, deeply ashamed about.
00:30:40.035 --> 00:30:40.474
What was it?
00:30:41.236 --> 00:30:42.257
I'll tell you what it is here.
00:30:42.938 --> 00:30:46.580
So I was on the state presidency and I was visiting a couple.
00:30:46.621 --> 00:30:50.184
He was not a member.
00:30:50.224 --> 00:30:51.385
She was.
00:30:52.385 --> 00:31:05.125
And the way the conversation was going, the direction of the conversation led in the way where I was asked a question about whether this couple would be together forever.
00:31:05.164 --> 00:31:06.906
And I said, no.
00:31:08.028 --> 00:31:09.170
And they said, but we love each other.
00:31:09.211 --> 00:31:10.291
I said, that doesn't matter.
00:31:10.932 --> 00:31:13.856
You can't be together unless you're both sealed in the temple.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:17.863
That has plagued me.
00:31:18.523 --> 00:31:19.506
I'm deeply ashamed.
00:31:19.970 --> 00:31:24.674
When I left the state presidency, when I left the church, I put it right.
00:31:25.797 --> 00:31:26.356
I called them.
00:31:27.178 --> 00:31:28.019
I apologized.
00:31:28.579 --> 00:31:31.002
And I told them I was wrong.
00:31:31.884 --> 00:31:32.364
Very wrong.
00:31:34.266 --> 00:31:36.068
This has plagued me for years.
00:31:36.088 --> 00:31:37.690
I put it right.
00:31:37.730 --> 00:31:40.333
They appreciated what I said.
00:31:40.353 --> 00:31:43.676
I felt so bad.
00:31:43.696 --> 00:31:45.259
I was so wrong.
00:31:46.019 --> 00:32:12.652
I believe that if you love someone, your partner, your spouse, your children, that love is way more powerful than any temple ceremony, than any priesthood authority, that that love which Christ taught is available to anyone and everyone, regardless of religion or background, whether you believe in a God or not, as long as you love each other, truly love each other unconditionally.
00:32:14.074 --> 00:32:20.900
So, yeah, I said that's one of the things I've deep in regret ever saying in the past.
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:23.041
So anyway,
00:32:24.644 --> 00:32:32.632
if you embrace that idea, I think the church is scared of that idea because it means, well, then what do you need us for?
00:32:33.813 --> 00:32:34.032
Yeah.
00:32:34.113 --> 00:32:35.074
Why do you need the temple?
00:32:35.674 --> 00:32:36.596
Why do you need the temple?
00:32:37.696 --> 00:32:41.180
And increasingly people continue to ask that question.
00:32:42.201 --> 00:32:43.542
Well, why do I need the temple?
00:32:44.683 --> 00:32:57.772
And so the church has, I think is doubling down on this because this gives them the sort of exclusive authority to control your eternity.
00:32:59.336 --> 00:33:03.942
And, and, uh, and more and more people just aren't having any of that.
00:33:03.981 --> 00:33:09.971
And it's very smart because it's tied to tithing and it's tied to the next question.
00:33:10.211 --> 00:33:10.451
You're right.
00:33:10.471 --> 00:33:19.186
Cause if you know you're sealed, And in order to see all the other family, immediate and other extended family members, you have to be sealed to them, or they have to be sealed.
00:33:19.728 --> 00:33:21.631
Yeah, read that next question.
00:33:22.231 --> 00:33:23.733
Yeah, here's the question.
00:33:23.753 --> 00:33:29.402
Once you have been sealed in the temple, everyone in your family will be exalted regardless of what choices they make.
00:33:29.462 --> 00:33:32.227
Well, I believe that.
00:33:32.346 --> 00:33:36.132
I believe that it can be with anyone who you love, you know, in the eternities.
00:33:37.413 --> 00:33:39.998
Within reason, if they're a murderer, I don't know if they...
00:33:40.097 --> 00:33:41.259
They're going to be in the same place as you.
00:33:41.318 --> 00:33:45.564
I just don't understand enough about the Eternities to know how that works.
00:33:46.305 --> 00:33:59.740
But the church teaches very clearly that in order for you to be with your family, your kids, and your grandkids, they have to live worthily and go to the temple and endure to the end.
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:05.965
Otherwise, if they make different choices and they leave the church, well, you're not going to see your grandkids.
00:34:06.807 --> 00:34:38.782
You're not going to see your kids if they deviate from the church that's awful talk about control you've got to qualify for a temple recommend one of the questions is tithing we want you to be completely committed and devoted and by the way if you've got people in the family who are not quite as devoted or committed you've got to work on them because if you don't and they make the wrong choices then you're not going to see them ever I think that's just evil.
00:34:38.923 --> 00:34:39.864
I think that's destructive.
00:34:39.925 --> 00:34:40.465
It's awful.
00:34:41.626 --> 00:34:42.929
What an awful doctrine.
00:34:44.951 --> 00:34:50.637
Well, I choose to embrace the universalist side of it.
00:34:50.777 --> 00:35:02.913
But certainly that perspective or that point of view with regard to the doctrine is, I think, the dominant point of view in the church today.
00:35:02.932 --> 00:35:06.858
And so it's very interesting to see that they're trying to measure that.
00:35:07.681 --> 00:35:08.623
with these questions.
00:35:09.885 --> 00:35:19.699
This idea of being sealed in the temple and you're exalted regardless comes from, there's a verse in section 132 that essentially says that.
00:35:20.701 --> 00:35:27.711
I remember talking to a guy on my mission who was inactive, but he said, but I've been married in the temple, so it doesn't matter.
00:35:27.791 --> 00:35:29.114
And he pulled out section 132.
00:35:30.976 --> 00:35:52.887
And section 132, I think, and it talks about, you know, once you've been sealed up, uh, in the eternities, then if you don't commit murder to shed innocent blood, uh, you can do anything and you'll be left to the buffetings of Satan in this life, but you will eventually be exalted.
00:35:54.349 --> 00:36:03.740
And I think that actually is a verse that is used in the second anointing because that's the promise that's given in the second anointing.
00:36:04.702 --> 00:36:21.735
So anyway, um, But there are a number of statements, particularly by Joseph Smith, where he talks about how when you are sealed in the temple, you are not only saving yourselves, you are also saving your children in the eternities.
00:36:22.817 --> 00:36:35.978
And those have been quoted every once in a while, and they're sort of thrown out there to offer some kind of comfort to parents who are seeing their children leave.
00:36:36.961 --> 00:36:44.811
And through no fault of their own, because I think the expectation was if you're righteous enough, your children won't leave.
00:36:45.931 --> 00:36:47.673
And we just know that's not true.
00:36:47.713 --> 00:36:53.201
We know that's not true because the children of apostles leave the church.
00:36:54.021 --> 00:36:56.244
The children of prophets leave the church.
00:36:57.405 --> 00:37:04.793
And so, you know, we know that there's no way that somebody's agency can override somebody else's agency.
00:37:05.666 --> 00:37:16.239
So I think there are a lot of people that do believe this because they want to cling to that to make sure that they can be extra righteous and that'll save their wayward children.
00:37:17.041 --> 00:37:22.387
And I agree with you, that kind of thinking, it's just destructive.
00:37:22.809 --> 00:37:25.391
It's just nothing but a source of pain.
00:37:25.592 --> 00:37:28.195
There is no comfort in that idea.
00:37:28.235 --> 00:37:30.800
There's nothing but pain in that idea.
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:32.161
All right.
00:37:32.221 --> 00:37:33.322
Do you want to read this next one?
00:37:36.449 --> 00:37:36.789
Sure.
00:37:38.072 --> 00:37:39.632
I think we're the next group of questions, aren't we?
00:37:40.534 --> 00:37:42.737
Got one more at the bottom there.
00:37:42.757 --> 00:37:43.016
Okay.
00:37:44.458 --> 00:37:44.599
Right.
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:44.878
Okay.
00:37:44.898 --> 00:37:45.139
Yeah.
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:53.548
Marrying in the temple for eternity is so important that it is better to stay single than to marry for this life only.
00:37:54.009 --> 00:37:54.409
Oh, my gosh.
00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:55.170
I know a bit about that.
00:37:56.532 --> 00:38:10.451
So, yeah, the church believes that, that you, it's taught that, that you're better off being single than marrying somebody, say, out of the church.
00:38:12.393 --> 00:38:13.153
That's what it's taught.
00:38:13.233 --> 00:38:14.014
That's what I've taught.
00:38:14.074 --> 00:38:15.056
That's my understanding.
00:38:15.257 --> 00:38:15.817
I don't buy that.
00:38:15.876 --> 00:38:16.798
I don't believe that anymore.
00:38:17.679 --> 00:38:23.166
But I know, and President Morrison used to give lots of talks about single sisters and widowers.
00:38:24.887 --> 00:38:25.128
Yeah.
00:38:29.213 --> 00:38:29.673
Did I lose you?
00:38:29.713 --> 00:38:31.155
And men.
00:38:31.717 --> 00:38:39.237
Some men, many sisters in the church who, for whatever reason, haven't found someone that they're happy with or is compatible.
00:38:39.257 --> 00:38:41.500
They've not found someone to marry in the temple.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:42.860
So they've stayed single.
00:38:43.621 --> 00:38:49.527
And that, again, is another tragic, tragic mistake and tragic loss.
00:38:50.648 --> 00:39:07.840
And the notion that you can't find someone outside the church to be happy with them and live happily, that it's best to be single than stay in the church and be temple worthy, but stay single instead of you know, marrying somebody in the temple.
00:39:09.561 --> 00:39:10.663
I think that's just awful.
00:39:10.702 --> 00:39:15.108
That's robbing someone of their entire life's experience where they stay single.
00:39:15.168 --> 00:39:29.987
I know quite a few sisters who have, who are in their 60s, 70s now, who have never married and they've been alone their entire life because they haven't found someone to take them to the temple.
00:39:30.628 --> 00:39:34.192
What a tragic, tragic loss of a life.
00:39:34.472 --> 00:39:35.313
I think that's terrible.
00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:37.130
You know,
00:39:39.012 --> 00:39:44.179
you can see this in the highest leadership of the church.
00:39:46.001 --> 00:39:50.766
President Nelson was married to his wife, Danzel, I think her name was.
00:39:51.126 --> 00:39:52.309
And they had nine children.
00:39:52.329 --> 00:39:55.932
And then she died.
00:39:55.952 --> 00:40:01.320
And he remarried Wendy Watson, who was in her 70s and had never married.
00:40:02.661 --> 00:40:04.563
And it's interesting, too.
00:40:05.423 --> 00:40:06.525
So this is a story.
00:40:07.041 --> 00:40:10.126
I hesitate to tell it because I'm not sure if I'm supposed to.
00:40:12.148 --> 00:40:24.802
Uh, but I know someone who knows Kristen Oaks, who's Dallin Oaks, his current wife and his second wife, Dallin Oaks, his wife died.
00:40:24.842 --> 00:40:34.793
And Dallin Oaks, as the story goes, Kristen Oaks had sent, um, almost like a resume.
00:40:35.842 --> 00:40:36.242
to M.
00:40:36.302 --> 00:40:37.123
Russell Ballard.
00:40:37.483 --> 00:40:37.923
She knew M.
00:40:37.963 --> 00:40:38.605
Russell Ballard.
00:40:38.664 --> 00:40:40.166
She didn't know Dallin Oaks.
00:40:41.047 --> 00:40:42.509
I don't remember what her maiden name was.
00:40:43.268 --> 00:40:50.617
And I'm not going to tell you who told me this story, but I trust my source.
00:40:51.918 --> 00:41:03.610
So she essentially gave this thing to Elder Ballard and said, can you give this to Dallin Oaks and tell him that I want to date him?
00:41:05.538 --> 00:41:11.088
And Dallin Oaks, you know, the apostles get a whole bunch of these.
00:41:11.108 --> 00:41:15.655
I mean, there are a lot of women that just sort of throw themselves at the apostles.
00:41:16.255 --> 00:41:18.320
And I mean, they're rock stars to some degree.
00:41:19.121 --> 00:41:24.409
And so they get all kinds of unsolicited requests to do all kinds of things.
00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:27.295
And Dallin Oaks was single because he was a widower.
00:41:27.335 --> 00:41:39.222
And at one point, Dallin Oaks was talking to Elder Ballard shortly after Kristen Oaks had given Elder Ballard this info.
00:41:40.605 --> 00:41:46.291
And Dallin Oaks said, you know, Elder Ballard, I need to start thinking about getting married again.
00:41:47.414 --> 00:41:52.719
Elder Ballard said, well, it just so happens that I have this woman that really wants to meet you.
00:41:52.760 --> 00:42:00.670
And they arranged a meeting in Liberty Park in Salt Lake City, Big Island.
00:42:00.898 --> 00:42:05.864
open-air place in Salt Lake City, and they each had a chaperone with them.
00:42:06.744 --> 00:42:08.086
So there were four people there.
00:42:08.146 --> 00:42:09.929
It was Dallin Oaks, Kristen Oaks.
00:42:10.009 --> 00:42:12.931
I'm going to call her Kristen Oaks because I don't know what her maiden name was.
00:42:14.233 --> 00:42:17.016
And they walk up and they meet each other.
00:42:17.056 --> 00:42:25.126
And the first thing Dallin Oaks says to Kristen Oaks is, now I'm a man and you're a woman.
00:42:25.146 --> 00:42:27.329
Are you okay with that?
00:42:28.961 --> 00:42:33.626
And Kristen Oaks' response was, only if you're not a cross-dresser.
00:42:34.967 --> 00:42:35.347
Oh, wow.
00:42:35.728 --> 00:42:36.789
That was their first...
00:42:38.331 --> 00:42:40.554
I mean, Dallin Oaks just was announced.
00:42:41.594 --> 00:42:44.757
I mean, they met each other and it was just like, okay, are we going to get married?
00:42:45.838 --> 00:42:51.844
And they were married within, I don't know, a month or two at the most.
00:42:52.565 --> 00:42:55.108
It just happened very quickly.
00:42:55.188 --> 00:42:56.469
And by all accounts...
00:42:57.378 --> 00:42:58.898
They're quite happy with each other.
00:42:59.659 --> 00:43:03.184
But that was Dallin Oaks' response was, I'm a man and you're a woman.
00:43:03.244 --> 00:43:04.204
Are you okay with that?
00:43:05.686 --> 00:43:08.528
And the joke was, well, not if you're a cross-dresser.
00:43:09.769 --> 00:43:14.835
And I've heard that and I just thought, wow.
00:43:17.117 --> 00:43:26.286
And the other thing is that there are a number of, like there are women that are divorced or widowed that the Brethren would not even consider marrying.
00:43:26.849 --> 00:43:27.751
or consider dating.
00:43:28.572 --> 00:43:38.248
They will only consider dating a woman that has never been married because if they're widowed and they're married in the temple, that means they can't be sealed to them.
00:43:39.309 --> 00:43:41.914
So it's this eternal polygamy thing that's still out there.
00:43:42.894 --> 00:43:47.742
So anyway, so I don't know if I'm going to get in trouble for telling that story, but I don't think I will.
00:43:48.284 --> 00:43:50.608
Extraordinary first few words of the day.
00:43:50.668 --> 00:43:51.027
I mean, just
00:43:51.148 --> 00:43:51.869
weird and odd.
00:43:52.322 --> 00:43:53.302
It's weird and odd.
00:43:53.362 --> 00:43:54.563
And there were other people there.
00:43:54.583 --> 00:43:57.606
There were four people there because there was a chaperone for each of them.
00:43:58.507 --> 00:43:59.588
That's hard.
00:44:00.010 --> 00:44:01.010
Any dates.
00:44:01.331 --> 00:44:03.753
I'm a man and you're a woman.
00:44:03.813 --> 00:44:04.655
Are you okay with that?
00:44:05.956 --> 00:44:06.295
Yeah.
00:44:07.737 --> 00:44:08.057
Anyway.
00:44:08.739 --> 00:44:09.018
All right.
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:12.302
So now we're getting into LGBTQ questions.
00:44:12.402 --> 00:44:14.164
Although they always say LGBT.
00:44:15.224 --> 00:44:15.585
They don't.
00:44:17.007 --> 00:44:18.869
Okay.
00:44:19.048 --> 00:44:19.530
First one.
00:44:20.385 --> 00:44:30.360
Sometimes a male spirit is placed in a female body, and sometimes a female spirit is placed in a male body.
00:44:32.304 --> 00:44:33.045
Agree or disagree?
00:44:34.347 --> 00:44:35.548
Oh, boy, that's an interesting one.
00:44:35.688 --> 00:44:36.990
I agree with that now.
00:44:37.192 --> 00:44:38.132
I didn't used to be.
00:44:38.172 --> 00:44:47.007
I held the church's position that Elder Packer said, why would God do something like this, do anything like this to somebody?
00:44:47.027 --> 00:44:48.748
I think the...
00:44:49.409 --> 00:44:52.775
Proclamation to the world is male and female spirit.
00:44:53.255 --> 00:44:53.896
It teaches that.
00:44:53.936 --> 00:44:54.175
It
00:44:56.318 --> 00:44:57.981
does not explicitly teach that.
00:44:58.021 --> 00:45:07.675
All it says is that gender is eternal, but it doesn't say male and female.
00:45:07.715 --> 00:45:13.101
It says it's an eternal part of identity, of your eternal identity and purpose.
00:45:14.384 --> 00:45:19.929
And many transgender people took that language and said, yes, it's my eternal gender.
00:45:20.851 --> 00:45:31.965
And my eternal gender is at odds with my physical gender, which required President Oaks to say, no, no, no, what we meant was that we meant your biological sex assigned at birth.
00:45:33.025 --> 00:45:35.849
But that's not what the actual proclamation says.
00:45:36.731 --> 00:45:44.760
So that just highlights one of the problems that the proclamation on the family is used to push things that it doesn't
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:45.702
explicitly say.
00:45:46.402 --> 00:45:49.887
It says that all human beings are created in the image of God.
00:45:50.168 --> 00:45:56.478
As a beloved spirit, son or daughter of heavenly parents, each person has a divine nature and destiny.
00:45:57.059 --> 00:46:02.648
Gender is an essential characteristic of human identity before, during, and after life on earth.
00:46:02.909 --> 00:46:05.735
I'm reading the Proclamation of the World there.
00:46:07.657 --> 00:46:15.797
So, you know, my interpretation from the Proclamation is that you are either a male or a female spirit.
00:46:16.338 --> 00:46:20.804
And so the question is, could you be a male spirit in a female body?
00:46:20.844 --> 00:46:39.641
I believe that now and know that because the people that I've met who have opened up to me and shared with me that they are a female in a man's body and knowing these people as well as I do and trusting them, and trusting their feelings, I now believe that.
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:40.762
I didn't used to believe that.
00:46:40.802 --> 00:46:44.367
I was completely other end of the spectrum where that's just not possible.
00:46:45.086 --> 00:47:01.547
So I think there are physiological factors and psychological factors and spiritual factors which have taught me that yes, a male spirit can be placed in a female body.
00:47:01.608 --> 00:47:12.043
And these individuals, by the way, Jim, they share with me that they feel trapped inside you know, a female or a male body and it's not them.
00:47:12.063 --> 00:47:13.764
It's not their body, so to speak.
00:47:15.346 --> 00:47:19.150
No, that's, that's what they've said to me too, is said to me as well.
00:47:20.190 --> 00:47:42.391
And the more you talk to people who are transgender, the more you recognize that the idea that they would just sort of casually decide that, Hey, you know what, um, I'm going to see what it's, you know, I'm just going to try what it'd be like to be a woman if I'm a man.
00:47:42.411 --> 00:47:46.396
I mean, because that's the way they're sort of characterized.
00:47:46.438 --> 00:47:57.632
You know, here in the United States, our lovely new president has issued an executive order that says that we no longer recognize transgender people.
00:47:58.753 --> 00:48:06.429
And when Trump was elected, Caitlyn Jenner, You're aware of Caitlyn Jenner?
00:48:06.809 --> 00:48:07.751
I know the name, yeah.
00:48:07.851 --> 00:48:09.414
I know a bit about the individual, yeah.
00:48:09.753 --> 00:48:17.748
Yeah, so Caitlyn Jenner is still a Republican and just tweeted out, oh, America is saved.
00:48:17.807 --> 00:48:18.748
God bless you, Mr.
00:48:18.789 --> 00:48:19.250
President.
00:48:20.592 --> 00:48:28.304
And all these people ended up saying, dude, he just made sure that he just said you could only be called Bruce.
00:48:29.547 --> 00:48:29.867
You know, he...
00:48:31.266 --> 00:48:34.250
He's thrown transgender people under the bus.
00:48:34.889 --> 00:48:38.635
The church is transgender policies.
00:48:38.715 --> 00:48:40.476
We talked about that for a whole episode.
00:48:41.557 --> 00:48:54.813
But we have reached a point in the church where we are willing to acknowledge the legitimacy of gay people, but we are not willing to acknowledge that there are even transgender people.
00:48:55.974 --> 00:48:58.217
We just try to pretend that this just doesn't happen.
00:48:59.010 --> 00:49:14.527
And the weight of evidence is overwhelming that people who feel that their gender is different from their biological sex at birth, this is such a driving, powerful part of who they are.
00:49:14.547 --> 00:49:15.987
I mean, I don't know.
00:49:16.027 --> 00:49:26.219
I think I said, I don't know if I agree or disagree because I don't know what the relationship is between the physical biology and the spiritual biology.
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.461
If you could even talk about spiritual biology.
00:49:29.282 --> 00:49:31.224
I don't know how that works.
00:49:31.425 --> 00:49:33.509
I don't think the church knows how that works.
00:49:33.668 --> 00:49:36.532
And I don't think anybody really knows how that works.
00:49:37.213 --> 00:49:44.925
So I think we should err on the side of compassion and inclusion rather than just say we know more than we actually do.
00:49:44.945 --> 00:49:50.253
I just don't think we understand this phenomenon.
00:49:50.313 --> 00:49:54.501
We do understand the suffering of the people who experience it.
00:49:55.481 --> 00:49:57.786
And we should be erring on the side of inclusion.
00:49:58.594 --> 00:50:00.996
I have a transgender relative.
00:50:01.277 --> 00:50:06.965
And again, I'm going to be vague because this transgender relative has not given me permission to identify them.
00:50:08.527 --> 00:50:13.233
But they've said, how am I a threat to anybody?
00:50:14.335 --> 00:50:16.217
Why am I so frightening to people?
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:29.847
You know, because transgenderism is just the huge bugaboo right now of all The right wing in the United States, I think the right wing worldwide, and certainly in the church.
00:50:30.047 --> 00:50:41.820
It's just, these are the people that we've decided to otherize and demonize and say, you know, these are scary people that are threatening the foundations of whatever it is.
00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:44.063
And it's just not true.
00:50:44.083 --> 00:50:45.925
It's just not true.
00:50:45.945 --> 00:50:53.534
These are people very often who are in a tremendous amount of emotional pain for most of their life.
00:50:54.498 --> 00:51:05.769
And transitioning gives them a measure of solace that previous generations, because this isn't something that just was invented a few years ago.
00:51:05.809 --> 00:51:09.612
Transgenderism has been with us since the beginning.
00:51:10.574 --> 00:51:21.666
People have felt this way since the beginning, and it's only now that medical science is sort of catching up to offer different remedies.
00:51:22.465 --> 00:51:24.668
And not everybody medically transitions.
00:51:24.708 --> 00:51:27.813
Some people are comfortable just socially transitioning.
00:51:28.132 --> 00:51:29.335
We just don't understand it.
00:51:29.934 --> 00:51:33.440
And if we don't understand it, why not err on the side of inclusion?
00:51:34.820 --> 00:51:38.326
My position on this doesn't come necessarily from studies.
00:51:38.485 --> 00:51:41.268
It comes from people who have opened up to me.
00:51:41.329 --> 00:51:42.451
People I know and trust.
00:51:43.572 --> 00:51:46.675
Some of them I've known for a long time who don't make this stuff up.
00:51:47.257 --> 00:51:47.998
This is how they feel.
00:51:48.577 --> 00:51:49.818
They told me why they feel.
00:51:49.858 --> 00:51:53.282
They told me why they think they feel like this to the best of their ability.
00:51:53.322 --> 00:51:55.123
I have no reason to disbelieve them.
00:51:55.164 --> 00:51:55.945
They're very genuine.
00:51:55.985 --> 00:51:58.847
This is how they feel, and it's real.
00:51:58.867 --> 00:52:00.309
At least it's real to them.
00:52:00.329 --> 00:52:00.389
And
00:52:03.112 --> 00:52:06.094
we have no way of measuring it any other way.
00:52:06.114 --> 00:52:10.518
If it's real to them, then it's real to me.
00:52:13.481 --> 00:52:13.561
Sure.
00:52:13.581 --> 00:52:14.722
And everybody's like, well, let's see.
00:52:16.324 --> 00:52:17.505
I've heard all the arguments.
00:52:18.081 --> 00:52:23.447
And none of them are persuasive at this point.
00:52:24.009 --> 00:52:31.938
It'll be interesting to see if now the church, I think it's a bit cowardly of the church putting this out and the question there, because it's like putting the feelers out.
00:52:31.978 --> 00:52:33.300
What do people really think?
00:52:33.860 --> 00:52:35.242
I think he probably knows that already.
00:52:35.782 --> 00:52:38.246
The questions and the time of the question is bizarre.
00:52:38.585 --> 00:52:40.327
Keeping in mind the question there doesn't exist anymore.
00:52:40.909 --> 00:52:49.815
And the other thing as well, is the church going to retrench now that Trump has made it an official position that there's only two genders.
00:52:50.936 --> 00:53:03.271
Is the church going to retract and reposition itself back to its traditional thinking and come out in support and abandon some of its more softer, flexible thinking towards transgender?
00:53:03.831 --> 00:53:08.277
Is it going to take more of a hard line in line with Trump?
00:53:08.318 --> 00:53:08.697
Who knows?
00:53:09.398 --> 00:53:11.501
We'll see if the church does the right thing or not.
00:53:12.443 --> 00:53:12.503
The
00:53:13.103 --> 00:53:28.922
church is very happy with I think our current president would be very happy with the church's current transgender policy because it's pretty consistent with what our president is doing.
00:53:29.202 --> 00:53:29.983
Yeah, you want to read the next
00:53:30.043 --> 00:53:30.123
one?
00:53:30.985 --> 00:53:32.166
Sure.
00:53:33.547 --> 00:53:37.452
Okay, it is a sin to feel attracted to the others of the same gender.
00:53:37.592 --> 00:53:39.215
The church teaches that still.
00:53:39.235 --> 00:53:40.817
It's trying
00:53:40.896 --> 00:53:41.797
to teach that.
00:53:42.561 --> 00:53:45.704
The church absolutely does not teach that anymore.
00:53:46.525 --> 00:53:46.925
It doesn't?
00:53:47.547 --> 00:53:47.726
No.
00:53:47.746 --> 00:53:49.329
Okay.
00:53:51.510 --> 00:53:54.554
Let me just challenge you on that.
00:53:54.653 --> 00:53:55.835
It did teach that.
00:53:56.275 --> 00:53:57.257
It absolutely
00:53:57.336 --> 00:53:57.617
did.
00:53:58.378 --> 00:54:01.860
It absolutely did, and now it absolutely does not.
00:54:03.623 --> 00:54:06.945
You can find all kinds of statements, particularly by Boyd K.
00:54:06.985 --> 00:54:19.556
Packer in his talk, Two Young Men Only, which is mainly about masturbation, but also about homosexuality and talks about a missionary decking his companion because he finds out he's gay.
00:54:19.596 --> 00:54:25.643
And Elder Packer says, well, I'm not recommending that course of action, but I am not ruling it out either.
00:54:25.682 --> 00:54:27.684
And that was a big laugh line.
00:54:28.505 --> 00:54:30.487
I don't agree with you.
00:54:30.507 --> 00:54:31.208
I'll tell you why.
00:54:31.248 --> 00:54:38.637
Now I know our local leaders here teach that to be attracted, certainly to act upon it.
00:54:39.489 --> 00:54:41.052
The
00:54:41.231 --> 00:54:43.193
question is to feel attracted.
00:54:44.094 --> 00:54:57.989
We're going to get to acted on, but the feeling, we're now told, I mean, the church is very explicit in saying same-sex attraction, and I hate that phrase, but same-sex attraction is not a sin, but acting on it is.
00:54:58.791 --> 00:55:01.034
Okay, I want to change what I've said because I'm wrong.
00:55:01.934 --> 00:55:03.335
When I'm wrong, I say I'm wrong.
00:55:04.717 --> 00:55:05.798
Thanks for highlighting it.
00:55:05.858 --> 00:55:08.141
To feel attracted to others is not...
00:55:08.514 --> 00:55:09.215
is not a sin.
00:55:09.315 --> 00:55:09.655
You're right.
00:55:09.675 --> 00:55:14.722
I interpret it as to feel is to act, and it's not saying that.
00:55:14.882 --> 00:55:16.724
So I take back what I've said.
00:55:16.744 --> 00:55:17.485
I was wrong.
00:55:18.146 --> 00:55:25.775
If you act upon it, which is another situation entirely, then that is a transgression.
00:55:25.835 --> 00:55:27.318
So yeah, I stand corrected.
00:55:28.418 --> 00:55:32.123
So the church is trying to carve out this middle ground that I think is untenable.
00:55:33.125 --> 00:55:50.672
Because if it's not a sin to feel attracted to others of the same gender, then what's God's purpose for allowing people to, you know, when Elder Packer said that thing about why would Heavenly Father do that to anyone, that's actually a really good question.
00:55:51.833 --> 00:55:54.336
He was asking it rhetorically as if there was no answer.
00:55:55.077 --> 00:55:56.259
But there has to be an answer.
00:55:56.519 --> 00:56:05.132
If it's not a sin to be gay, then what is the righteous purpose for those feelings?
00:56:06.893 --> 00:56:06.974
Yeah.
00:56:07.137 --> 00:56:09.041
So that's a good question.
00:56:09.340 --> 00:56:09.460
Yeah.
00:56:10.061 --> 00:56:10.443
All right.
00:56:10.742 --> 00:56:17.474
The next one says it is wrong to expect someone to live their entire lives without having sex.
00:56:19.516 --> 00:56:19.817
That's a
00:56:19.896 --> 00:56:20.137
really
00:56:20.378 --> 00:56:21.159
interesting question
00:56:21.219 --> 00:56:21.519
too.
00:56:22.201 --> 00:56:22.420
Yes.
00:56:22.641 --> 00:56:36.222
I know someone, and you know them very well as well, who while they were serving a mission, they were very concerned and worried that Jesus Christ might come before he has sex with his wife.
00:56:39.233 --> 00:56:40.014
I won't tell you the name.
00:56:40.536 --> 00:56:41.657
I'll keep the name private.
00:56:41.896 --> 00:56:42.898
You know what I'm talking about.
00:56:42.918 --> 00:56:42.938
I
00:56:43.579 --> 00:56:45.021
think I know who you're talking about.
00:56:46.023 --> 00:56:52.972
That Christ would come before he finished his mission and that he would never, ever have sex.
00:56:54.614 --> 00:56:56.996
Does he not think he's going to have sex in the next life?
00:56:58.478 --> 00:56:59.420
Is it the same thing?
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:00.101
I don't know.
00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:02.503
I mean, that's a long time to wait, isn't it?
00:57:02.523 --> 00:57:04.045
So...
00:57:04.418 --> 00:57:09.925
Is it wrong to expect someone to live their entire life without having sex?
00:57:10.166 --> 00:57:11.288
Yeah, I think so.
00:57:12.650 --> 00:57:16.697
There are a lot of people in and out of the church who do live their lives without having sex.
00:57:17.958 --> 00:57:21.284
And it's not a choice, necessarily.
00:57:23.626 --> 00:57:31.980
But yeah, I think that sex is very much a part of everybody's life.
00:57:33.202 --> 00:57:33.322
Or...
00:57:33.666 --> 00:57:39.512
I mean, it's one of the things that I think God has provided to bring people together.
00:57:39.552 --> 00:57:43.818
It's essential in order to continue the human race.
00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:52.349
And I think people that go their entire lives without it, that's just, yeah, I don't think it's fair to expect that of anybody.
00:57:52.369 --> 00:57:53.490
I agree.
00:57:54.152 --> 00:57:54.492
All right.
00:57:54.873 --> 00:57:59.097
Next one is God made a mistake when he made people who are gay.
00:57:59.117 --> 00:57:59.157
No.
00:58:00.320 --> 00:58:00.579
No.
00:58:00.619 --> 00:58:00.659
No.
00:58:02.561 --> 00:58:05.005
I don't know why people are gay.
00:58:05.025 --> 00:58:06.126
They are gay.
00:58:06.527 --> 00:58:07.568
They feel the way they do.
00:58:07.588 --> 00:58:09.550
Did God make them that way?
00:58:09.972 --> 00:58:10.512
I think so.
00:58:11.012 --> 00:58:11.614
God made them...
00:58:11.653 --> 00:58:14.438
You know, there's nature.
00:58:14.458 --> 00:58:15.599
There's laws of nature.
00:58:15.619 --> 00:58:17.021
They feel the way they do.
00:58:17.061 --> 00:58:18.483
They're not a mistake.
00:58:18.864 --> 00:58:26.114
I mean, what an awful thing to seek or suggest to someone that they're a mistake if they're gay.
00:58:26.914 --> 00:58:28.876
And you know, this is a real problem in the church where...
00:58:29.505 --> 00:58:36.775
Someone is gay or they feel gay or they act upon it and they commit what the church teaches as sin, transgression, if they act upon it.
00:58:36.815 --> 00:58:39.780
Not if they feel, that we addressed earlier.
00:58:40.541 --> 00:58:46.289
And they feel terrible, they feel guilty, yet they can't deny the feelings, but they're trapped.
00:58:47.070 --> 00:58:51.396
And some of them sadly turn to suicide because they don't know where to go.
00:58:51.416 --> 00:58:53.177
Who do they turn to?
00:58:53.237 --> 00:58:54.460
I mean, they feel these feelings.
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:55.742
They can't act upon them.
00:58:56.449 --> 00:59:05.240
And if they do, they transgress, they've fallen foul of God's teachings, they're rejected by the family, rejected by God, yet they feel the way they do.
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:07.202
And God made them that way.
00:59:07.543 --> 00:59:09.385
And they feel they're a mistake, but they're not.
00:59:10.286 --> 00:59:11.447
They're equal.
00:59:11.527 --> 00:59:15.612
A son or a child of God, just like you and I, just like anyone else.
00:59:17.175 --> 00:59:19.838
Yeah, and that's actually what the church now teaches.
00:59:21.721 --> 00:59:36.175
But I don't think, what's interesting about these questions is that I'm betting that that has not trickled down to the general membership because there are still plenty of members and plenty of leaders who still believe that that's true.
00:59:37.217 --> 00:59:41.882
And so the last question on here, this is the big money question.
00:59:42.463 --> 00:59:43.425
Yeah, it's a big one.
00:59:43.985 --> 00:59:57.224
And it's the question that I am asked by people who consider themselves defenders of the church, who consider me too apostate because I don't hate LGBTQ people enough.
00:59:58.826 --> 00:59:59.786
I don't hate them at all.
01:00:02.050 --> 01:00:08.880
But they always say, you want the church to seal same-sex couples in the temple.
01:00:09.621 --> 01:00:10.682
And that's the statement here.
01:00:10.702 --> 01:00:14.108
The church should seal same-sex couples in the temple.
01:00:14.168 --> 01:00:15.849
Do you agree or disagree, Ian?
01:00:17.012 --> 01:00:19.735
I used to vehemently disagree with that.
01:00:20.175 --> 01:00:22.414
Now, on the other hand, end of the spectrum.
01:00:23.115 --> 01:00:30.623
If two people love each other and they can serve in the church like anyone else, why can't they be sealed in the temple if they love each other?
01:00:30.664 --> 01:00:37.952
And they're committed and devoted and they could remain faithful to each other and loyal to each other, just like a man and a woman.
01:00:38.574 --> 01:00:41.838
Why can't those blessings be extended to same-sex couples?
01:00:42.838 --> 01:00:44.981
Keeping in mind, you know, gays are not mistakes.
01:00:45.262 --> 01:00:46.882
The children of God, we just said that.
01:00:46.983 --> 01:00:47.965
You just said that.
01:00:49.025 --> 01:00:49.085
Hmm.
01:00:49.954 --> 01:00:57.623
What disqualifies them from receiving those blessings if they're children of God and if they're not mistakes and if God made them that way?
01:00:58.706 --> 01:01:10.021
It seems a cruel irony to create people who feel gay, who are in love with each other, but they can't be together for the eternities.
01:01:10.081 --> 01:01:11.943
That just seems cruel.
01:01:14.407 --> 01:01:19.253
All right, so I am going to answer this question, and this may be a bit of a dodge.
01:01:20.802 --> 01:01:30.556
But my answer is, I do not want to do anything in the temples that God does not want to do.
01:01:32.778 --> 01:01:44.054
And if this is what God chooses to do in order to bring about inclusion of gay and lesbian people in the church, then I will fully embrace it.
01:01:45.577 --> 01:01:47.951
I am not mandating it.
01:01:48.251 --> 01:01:49.474
I am not demanding it.
01:01:49.773 --> 01:01:53.360
I am not an activist campaigning for it.
01:01:54.300 --> 01:01:58.827
I will accept it if it's what God wants to do, if it is the subject of revelation.
01:01:58.987 --> 01:02:03.936
And I am confident that this is a church of continuing revelation.
01:02:04.797 --> 01:02:13.070
And so when people ask me this question, my answer is, look, I am confident.
01:02:14.172 --> 01:02:21.039
I am 100% confident that that there is going to be greater inclusion of LGBTQ people in the church.
01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:24.304
What that looks like is up to God.
01:02:24.324 --> 01:02:25.487
It is not up to me.
01:02:26.608 --> 01:02:31.016
And so I, you know, so that's my answer.
01:02:31.838 --> 01:02:40.353
My answer is the church should seal same-sex couples in the temple only if God wants it.
01:02:41.538 --> 01:02:45.621
And there are people who hear that and get angry because, of course, God doesn't want it.
01:02:45.682 --> 01:02:46.844
Of course, God would never want it.
01:02:47.605 --> 01:02:52.349
Like, I just don't think that we should be placing limits on what God can and can't do.
01:02:53.811 --> 01:03:03.161
And we have seen so many changes in terms of inclusion that if this is a change that is in the future, I will embrace it.
01:03:03.742 --> 01:03:13.969
If it is not a change in the future, I am committed to sustaining the brethren and People are like, well, what are you going to do if it doesn't happen?
01:03:14.108 --> 01:03:15.530
It's like, well, what am I doing now?
01:03:16.811 --> 01:03:17.992
I'm 56 years old.
01:03:18.012 --> 01:03:19.655
I've lived my entire life in the church.
01:03:20.715 --> 01:03:21.597
I haven't left yet.
01:03:22.858 --> 01:03:24.360
I haven't put a deadline on this.
01:03:24.400 --> 01:03:31.688
I haven't made any demands or insisted that God do something according to my timetable, according to my specifications.
01:03:32.648 --> 01:03:40.797
And so if this does not happen in my lifetime, I will continue a faithful member of the church regardless.
01:03:42.081 --> 01:03:43.483
So is that too much of a dodge?
01:03:45.746 --> 01:03:46.405
I think it's fair.
01:03:46.425 --> 01:03:46.445
I
01:03:47.708 --> 01:03:58.657
think it's, you know, you're trying to balance your commitment and your devotion, you're supporting the prophet, and you're putting it in the hands of God who understands this way more than anyone else.
01:03:58.818 --> 01:04:01.121
So, yeah, I think it's a very fair response.
01:04:02.041 --> 01:04:02.422
All right.
01:04:02.541 --> 01:04:04.824
So now we move on to issues of race.
01:04:04.864 --> 01:04:10.269
Our friend from a few podcasts ago would have a lot to say about this.
01:04:11.329 --> 01:04:15.114
And we went into this extensively in that discussion.
01:04:16.737 --> 01:04:17.958
Do you want to read the
01:04:17.978 --> 01:04:18.539
first question?
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:19.561
Sure.
01:04:19.820 --> 01:04:24.065
People with dark skin were not as faithful in premortal life.
01:04:25.007 --> 01:04:26.088
Now, I've been taught that.
01:04:26.128 --> 01:04:28.050
I've taught that.
01:04:29.012 --> 01:04:29.934
I used to believe that.
01:04:29.974 --> 01:04:31.715
I no longer believe that.
01:04:32.077 --> 01:04:39.346
I think it's, if people think and believe that, I think that's awful, tragic.
01:04:40.097 --> 01:04:46.527
You know, people with black skin are equal to anyone else and can be faithful to anyone else.
01:04:47.809 --> 01:04:54.099
And the church has addressed this in one of the essays under the Raising the Priesthood, which came out in October 2013.
01:04:54.219 --> 01:04:55.961
It was the beginning of my...
01:04:55.981 --> 01:05:02.891
I look at it and I was unraveling, but reconstructing, maybe that's the word.
01:05:03.333 --> 01:05:04.054
Is that such a word?
01:05:04.213 --> 01:05:04.795
Just made it up.
01:05:05.637 --> 01:05:06.717
Reconstructing my faith.
01:05:07.559 --> 01:05:09.001
And actually following...
01:05:10.273 --> 01:05:21.224
me being honest with myself and being authentic and following what I've always believed and privately rejected the notion that people with dark skin were not as faithful.
01:05:21.264 --> 01:05:24.266
I never believed it, even though I might have said that I do.
01:05:24.586 --> 01:05:25.648
I didn't privately.
01:05:27.130 --> 01:05:35.677
And so, no, people with dark skin are as faithful as anyone with any other skin.
01:05:35.978 --> 01:05:39.121
So I don't believe or accept that as it's written.
01:05:39.762 --> 01:05:41.427
No, And I agree with you 100%.
01:05:42.708 --> 01:05:44.710
We don't know anything about the premortal life.
01:05:45.010 --> 01:05:56.581
We don't know anything about who was righteous, who was unrighteous, what the consequences of our behavior there, how that has any bearing on what we do now.
01:05:57.181 --> 01:05:58.583
We just don't know anything.
01:05:59.463 --> 01:06:10.963
And to have somebody, as our guest did a few weeks ago, just assert, well, it wasn't that they were less faithful, it's that they chose not to What was it he said?
01:06:10.983 --> 01:06:13.746
They chose not to have priests.
01:06:14.248 --> 01:06:14.527
Yeah.
01:06:15.710 --> 01:06:16.550
You don't know that?
01:06:17.271 --> 01:06:17.331
No,
01:06:18.474 --> 01:06:19.775
we
01:06:19.815 --> 01:06:20.255
don't know that.
01:06:21.077 --> 01:06:21.978
I've never heard that before.
01:06:22.079 --> 01:06:23.922
I think I was just, I have no
01:06:23.961 --> 01:06:24.342
idea what it is.
01:06:24.882 --> 01:06:26.304
The church did teach this.
01:06:26.746 --> 01:06:28.047
We no longer teach it.
01:06:28.168 --> 01:06:38.101
And the thing that's frustrating about a lot of these questions or statements is that the initial teaching of this was very vocal and very public.
01:06:38.786 --> 01:06:45.733
And the disavowal of it is very quiet and easily missed by a lot of members.
01:06:47.153 --> 01:06:56.342
I've had people get angry when I quote the Race and the Priesthood essay.
01:06:56.382 --> 01:06:59.346
It's like, don't bring that into the gospel doctrine class.
01:06:59.385 --> 01:07:01.307
This is published by the church.
01:07:01.367 --> 01:07:02.929
This is the church's position.
01:07:02.969 --> 01:07:09.226
And people are very uncomfortable because it challenges the a longstanding teaching.
01:07:09.266 --> 01:07:12.150
And this was absolutely a longstanding teaching in the church.
01:07:13.891 --> 01:07:17.014
Um, the next one, God does not love one race more than another.
01:07:17.054 --> 01:07:18.596
Absolutely.
01:07:18.635 --> 01:07:19.336
I agree with that.
01:07:19.617 --> 01:07:20.237
You agree with that?
01:07:20.978 --> 01:07:21.219
I do.
01:07:21.259 --> 01:07:23.121
Okay.
01:07:23.161 --> 01:07:26.804
The next one, it is a commandment to marry within your race.
01:07:27.925 --> 01:07:28.746
I do not agree with
01:07:28.806 --> 01:07:29.045
that.
01:07:29.447 --> 01:07:35.833
It used to be a commandment or instruct from like Brigham Young where, you know, to marry outside of the race was death on the spot.
01:07:36.532 --> 01:07:36.773
Right.
01:07:36.994 --> 01:07:43.445
Uh, You know, and many, many of the quotes and references, but no, the thing has changed now.
01:07:44.286 --> 01:07:45.788
It's changed very quietly.
01:07:45.827 --> 01:08:02.009
And in fact, language about interracial dating, discouraging interracial dating or interracial marriage, survived into manuals into the 21st century, as recently as I think about 10 years ago.
01:08:02.829 --> 01:08:03.050
Yes.
01:08:05.813 --> 01:08:06.074
So...
01:08:06.882 --> 01:08:11.027
I just want to read the significant paragraph, if I may.
01:08:11.047 --> 01:08:15.215
I think it's so important to quote this in the Race and the Priesthood essay.
01:08:15.255 --> 01:08:22.085
It says the church today, for our listeners, you can find this in the Race and the Priesthood essay right at the very end of the essay.
01:08:22.125 --> 01:08:29.141
He says here, today the church disavows The theories, they weren't just theories, they were teachings, they were the doctrine.
01:08:29.962 --> 01:08:35.649
The theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse.
01:08:36.011 --> 01:08:37.432
Remember, it's taught in the Book of Mormon.
01:08:37.573 --> 01:08:39.515
So Nephi believed this, right?
01:08:40.416 --> 01:08:52.532
Or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life, that mixed race marriages are a sin, or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else.
01:08:53.252 --> 01:08:59.944
Church leaders today believe unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.
01:09:02.127 --> 01:09:05.150
And how many members of the church have never ever heard that?
01:09:07.113 --> 01:09:12.939
President Nelson has, I think, been more outspoken against racism than any previous prophet.
01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:16.704
And yet he's never said anything that explicit from the pulpit.
01:09:17.506 --> 01:09:19.889
He's never disavowed previous teachings.
01:09:19.948 --> 01:09:22.992
He's just said, We need to root out racism.
01:09:23.131 --> 01:09:37.045
And Paul Reeve, who's a brilliant and faithful scholar who teaches at the University of Utah, says, how do you root out racism in the church if you're not allowed to look at the roots of where racism took hold in the church?
01:09:38.327 --> 01:09:42.871
And the roots were these kinds of statements that you have to marry within your race.
01:09:43.292 --> 01:09:46.774
I mean, the next statement is dark skin is a curse, and we both disagree with that.
01:09:47.496 --> 01:09:49.858
But that was absolutely something that was taught.
01:09:50.626 --> 01:09:57.573
And I couldn't get our guest to even admit that that had ever happened, that that had ever been taught.
01:09:57.694 --> 01:10:11.628
So there's a number of people in the church that not only still believe that, but they're not willing to assign any possibility of error ever happening.
01:10:11.969 --> 01:10:15.052
And they're not willing to admit that there has ever been a change.
01:10:16.373 --> 01:10:18.136
And that's the final thing about this here.
01:10:18.176 --> 01:10:25.666
The final statement here is, The church's history with blacks in the priesthood shows that doctrine itself can change.
01:10:26.627 --> 01:10:28.329
And I think we would both agree with that.
01:10:28.390 --> 01:10:35.939
But how do you think a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles would answer that question?
01:10:39.043 --> 01:10:39.744
The last question?
01:10:40.305 --> 01:10:40.546
Yeah.
01:10:40.947 --> 01:10:43.751
Church's history with blacks in the priesthood shows that doctrine itself can change.
01:10:44.171 --> 01:10:48.818
Do you think that Dallin Oaks or David Bednar would agree with that?
01:10:51.362 --> 01:10:52.844
Yes, so they couch it differently.
01:10:52.863 --> 01:10:55.247
I mean, clearly the doctrine has changed.
01:10:55.568 --> 01:10:58.112
I mean, you can't argue that.
01:10:58.372 --> 01:10:59.814
The position of the church has changed.
01:10:59.854 --> 01:11:04.240
That disavow statement we just read, that's very clear in my mind, right?
01:11:04.782 --> 01:11:07.246
There's been a change in the doctrine.
01:11:07.626 --> 01:11:08.927
How would they present that?
01:11:09.609 --> 01:11:15.217
They would say, well, up until 1978, that was God's position.
01:11:15.257 --> 01:11:26.408
And then in 1978, God decided that the church was ready to extend the priesthood to people of all color.
01:11:29.832 --> 01:11:33.078
So I think that's how the church apostles would address it.
01:11:33.899 --> 01:11:35.440
They wouldn't throw the prophets under the bus.
01:11:36.061 --> 01:11:41.588
They would never say, yeah, they would never say the doctrine changes.
01:11:41.628 --> 01:11:43.591
They would say, they wouldn't come out and say that.
01:11:43.612 --> 01:11:49.819
They say God decided in 1978 that it was time for blacks to have the priesthood.
01:11:50.501 --> 01:11:51.362
That's as far as you get.
01:11:52.641 --> 01:11:57.207
So they won't throw Brigham Young under the bus, but they'll throw God under the bus.
01:11:58.488 --> 01:12:00.430
That's bizarre to me.
01:12:00.470 --> 01:12:01.492
Yes.
01:12:02.953 --> 01:12:07.720
It's much easier for me to believe that Brigham Young is a racist rather than believe God is a racist.
01:12:08.420 --> 01:12:12.425
And the way that they frame it is, well, God can't be a racist because he's God.
01:12:13.286 --> 01:12:21.536
So obviously it wasn't racist, which is just circular reasoning and begging the question and pretty much nonsense.
01:12:22.157 --> 01:12:22.436
All right.
01:12:22.497 --> 01:12:24.739
So there are three more pages.
01:12:25.541 --> 01:12:27.264
We're past an hour here.
01:12:28.104 --> 01:12:30.608
This page I don't think is particularly interesting.
01:12:30.667 --> 01:12:32.310
Can we just sort of rip through this one?
01:12:32.350 --> 01:12:33.231
Great.
01:12:33.412 --> 01:12:35.175
I think we can do this in the next 10 minutes
01:12:35.215 --> 01:12:36.076
so we can zip through it.
01:12:36.496 --> 01:12:36.756
Okay.
01:12:36.817 --> 01:12:39.340
It says, it is okay to lie if it leads to a good outcome.
01:12:39.359 --> 01:12:40.201
I don't believe that.
01:12:40.282 --> 01:12:41.002
Do you believe that?
01:12:41.764 --> 01:12:41.944
No.
01:12:42.984 --> 01:12:46.831
Being honest requires that I strive to make sure that others understand correctly.
01:12:46.850 --> 01:12:48.372
I believe that.
01:12:48.453 --> 01:12:49.054
Do you believe that?
01:12:49.333 --> 01:12:49.373
No.
01:12:49.506 --> 01:12:51.868
and I think the church should do a better job following that.
01:12:52.469 --> 01:12:53.250
Yeah, I agree.
01:12:53.270 --> 01:12:55.773
I mean, because the church, I think, thinks that they...
01:12:56.413 --> 01:12:57.354
We've never been dishonest.
01:12:57.395 --> 01:12:58.676
We've never hid anything from anybody.
01:12:59.278 --> 01:13:00.698
Well, you haven't really made sure...
01:13:00.738 --> 01:13:09.449
You know, all the stuff we just talked about, there are a whole lot of members of the church that don't understand any of that because the church hasn't strived to make sure that others understand it.
01:13:10.270 --> 01:13:13.373
Okay, as long as I don't lie, I am honest.
01:13:14.234 --> 01:13:15.296
No, the church doesn't teach that.
01:13:15.315 --> 01:13:16.117
The church says if you...
01:13:16.993 --> 01:13:19.438
conceal or don't only get a half truth.
01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:26.291
He says in those lessons that we've talked about that there's other ways of being dishonest.
01:13:26.390 --> 01:13:27.813
We talk about that on the podcast.
01:13:28.675 --> 01:13:33.823
Again, the church would do well to remind itself of the basic principles of honesty because it hasn't been honest.
01:13:34.385 --> 01:13:35.167
It has lied.
01:13:35.186 --> 01:13:36.609
It has concealed.
01:13:37.090 --> 01:13:48.305
It has misdirected people, and it has withheld important information and truth, and it has not followed its own principles of honesty outlined in that Gospel Principles Manual.
01:13:48.326 --> 01:13:48.405
All
01:13:49.787 --> 01:13:52.891
right, well, the last thing about honesty, this is a really weird question.
01:13:52.931 --> 01:13:58.319
The commandment to not bear false witness only applies when one is under oath in a court of law.
01:13:59.440 --> 01:14:03.305
I don't know of anybody that would agree with that.
01:14:03.867 --> 01:14:04.127
Do you?
01:14:04.148 --> 01:14:05.729
No, I don't.
01:14:06.945 --> 01:14:11.472
All right, so this last, this is the next to last page.
01:14:12.435 --> 01:14:12.755
Okay.
01:14:13.136 --> 01:14:14.859
This is all plural marriage stuff.
01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:16.100
Interesting.
01:14:17.162 --> 01:14:21.729
One must enter into plural marriage, polygamy, in order to be exalted.
01:14:21.750 --> 01:14:25.194
And I don't think either one of us agree with that.
01:14:25.234 --> 01:14:27.219
No, but I think the church does.
01:14:28.060 --> 01:14:29.322
Privately, personally, yeah.
01:14:29.962 --> 01:14:33.047
Do you think that they think that we all have to be polygamists?
01:14:34.189 --> 01:14:34.270
Yeah.
01:14:34.594 --> 01:14:35.796
They believe it.
01:14:35.836 --> 01:14:38.078
They've never privately abandoned it, right?
01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:45.149
I think this is an eternal thing that they are happy to teach and follow in the next life.
01:14:47.512 --> 01:14:50.617
Well, they certainly believe that it will be there in the next life.
01:14:51.358 --> 01:14:59.430
I think Presidents Nelson and Oaks both believe that they're going to be married to both of their wives on the other side of the veil.
01:15:00.097 --> 01:15:04.503
I don't think that they believe that everybody has to be a politician.
01:15:05.145 --> 01:15:07.948
I think there was a time, I think Brigham Young believed that.
01:15:08.310 --> 01:15:10.273
I certainly believe John Taylor believed that.
01:15:11.394 --> 01:15:14.498
I'm not sure if Wilford Woodruff believed that at one point.
01:15:15.479 --> 01:15:19.405
But certainly this was something that was believed early on.
01:15:20.627 --> 01:15:26.475
But I think now, if there are some who still believe that, I would think they're in the minority.
01:15:27.296 --> 01:15:27.898
Maybe I'm wrong.
01:15:28.449 --> 01:15:29.390
I think that's fair.
01:15:29.451 --> 01:15:30.693
It's a fair statement.
01:15:30.792 --> 01:15:32.034
Okay.
01:15:32.074 --> 01:15:36.161
Some people would be forced into plural marriage polygamy after mortality.
01:15:37.563 --> 01:15:37.962
I don't know.
01:15:40.967 --> 01:15:42.208
We've talked about polygamy here.
01:15:42.449 --> 01:15:44.632
We've already covered a lot of this.
01:15:45.212 --> 01:15:49.139
Members of the church today practice plural marriage and remain members in good standing.
01:15:50.740 --> 01:15:51.042
Yes.
01:15:53.104 --> 01:15:55.448
Well, yes, but only eternally,
01:15:56.328 --> 01:15:56.548
right?
01:15:56.689 --> 01:15:59.893
Well, Sure, but it is plural marriage.
01:15:59.972 --> 01:16:02.095
You're married to more than one person.
01:16:02.896 --> 01:16:03.237
Sealed.
01:16:03.636 --> 01:16:04.198
Right.
01:16:04.278 --> 01:16:04.859
But only
01:16:05.038 --> 01:16:07.141
one person at a time in mortality.
01:16:07.181 --> 01:16:08.884
Sure.
01:16:09.685 --> 01:16:10.164
Okay.
01:16:10.926 --> 01:16:11.846
I'm hair splitting here.
01:16:12.287 --> 01:16:16.872
You know, I read a great book over Christmas called American Zion by Benjamin Park.
01:16:17.113 --> 01:16:21.377
And he talked about Richard Lyman, who was the apostle who was excommunicated for adultery.
01:16:21.417 --> 01:16:24.282
And his wife...
01:16:25.217 --> 01:16:28.722
had essentially said after they'd had children, okay, we don't have to have sex anymore.
01:16:30.003 --> 01:16:33.769
And had just cut them off for the rest of their marriage.
01:16:34.009 --> 01:16:42.560
And he fell in love with this other woman and essentially said, okay, we're going to get sealed to each other in the next life.
01:16:43.841 --> 01:16:46.545
And then it became a physical relationship in this life.
01:16:46.626 --> 01:16:48.868
And he essentially treated her as a plural wife.
01:16:49.609 --> 01:16:51.471
But this was long after the manifesto.
01:16:51.492 --> 01:16:53.094
This was well into the 20th century.
01:16:53.985 --> 01:16:57.250
And he was excommunicated.
01:16:58.131 --> 01:17:14.070
But if any member of the church thinks they can marry in this life more than one living woman, I can't think of any faster way to get excommunicated.
01:17:14.110 --> 01:17:16.354
It's
01:17:16.373 --> 01:17:17.134
not saying that.
01:17:17.194 --> 01:17:18.676
He says here, one must enter...
01:17:18.796 --> 01:17:20.559
Just scroll down a bit, Jim, if you will.
01:17:20.578 --> 01:17:21.340
Just scroll down a bit more.
01:17:21.960 --> 01:17:22.261
One must...
01:17:23.554 --> 01:17:25.155
You should make your print a bit bigger, if you will.
01:17:25.456 --> 01:17:26.537
Yeah, that was the first question.
01:17:26.716 --> 01:17:28.899
One must enter into plural marriage in order to be exalted.
01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:29.920
Yep.
01:17:31.121 --> 01:17:31.822
This question here.
01:17:31.921 --> 01:17:35.525
Members of the church today practice plural marriage and remain members in good standing.
01:17:36.606 --> 01:17:37.408
Sorry, repeat the question.
01:17:37.488 --> 01:17:38.788
I was speaking at the same time.
01:17:38.828 --> 01:17:39.029
Go
01:17:39.350 --> 01:17:39.449
ahead.
01:17:39.470 --> 01:17:39.850
I'm sorry.
01:17:40.371 --> 01:17:45.015
Members of the church today practice plural marriage and remain members in good standing.
01:17:45.895 --> 01:17:51.902
I don't think we're splitting airs when we're saying that there are people in the church, Oaks and Nelson, who are technically exalted.
01:17:52.225 --> 01:18:02.319
seal to more than two people, even though it's not in this life, the other person is in the next life, it's still plural marriage in the context of what the church believes regarding eternal life.
01:18:03.421 --> 01:18:04.222
So I agree with that.
01:18:04.262 --> 01:18:05.283
I agree with that.
01:18:06.466 --> 01:18:18.082
What I'm saying is if President Nelson hadn't waited to marry Wendy Watson until after his first wife was dead, he would not be a member in good standing.
01:18:18.978 --> 01:18:22.863
if he had decided, okay, well, I'm going to marry Wendy while Danzel is still alive.
01:18:23.423 --> 01:18:23.583
Well,
01:18:23.703 --> 01:18:24.024
you're right.
01:18:24.324 --> 01:18:24.604
You're right.
01:18:25.326 --> 01:18:25.987
All right.
01:18:26.386 --> 01:18:28.710
This is the Michelle Brady Stone question.
01:18:29.270 --> 01:18:31.694
Joseph Smith did not institute plural marriage.
01:18:32.154 --> 01:18:35.038
It was initiated by Brigham Young without divine direction.
01:18:37.782 --> 01:18:39.323
I don't agree with that.
01:18:39.363 --> 01:18:40.305
No.
01:18:41.306 --> 01:18:45.912
The evidence is we had Brady Stone on that.
01:18:45.931 --> 01:18:47.134
It was interesting to hear.
01:18:47.329 --> 01:18:48.471
get her perspective on things.
01:18:48.811 --> 01:18:51.636
But Joe Smith did practice polygamy.
01:18:52.457 --> 01:18:52.796
He hid it.
01:18:53.478 --> 01:18:53.838
He hid it.
01:18:54.019 --> 01:18:54.739
He hid it from Emma.
01:18:56.882 --> 01:18:57.764
He practiced it.
01:18:58.185 --> 01:19:01.368
He said he didn't or wasn't practicing it when he was.
01:19:02.229 --> 01:19:03.391
He initiated it.
01:19:03.492 --> 01:19:04.011
It came from him.
01:19:04.072 --> 01:19:05.054
He was the prophet.
01:19:05.094 --> 01:19:05.814
He brought it in.
01:19:06.194 --> 01:19:07.516
Brigham Young carried it on.
01:19:08.618 --> 01:19:08.798
Yep.
01:19:09.899 --> 01:19:18.117
And I don't see how anybody can stay in the church and if they believe that Brigham Young just completely made it up.
01:19:19.798 --> 01:19:21.860
I mean, but we've talked about that too.
01:19:21.940 --> 01:19:27.006
So last one, if I enter into plural marriage, I would be committing a sin.
01:19:28.927 --> 01:19:29.429
What do you think?
01:19:31.390 --> 01:19:33.153
Well, it's how you define plural marriage.
01:19:33.252 --> 01:19:35.114
Is it in this life or the next life?
01:19:35.234 --> 01:19:40.420
If it is in this life physically, yes, because the church has abandoned the practice in the flesh in this life.
01:19:41.721 --> 01:19:45.141
But The church still teaches it and practices it in the next life.
01:19:46.302 --> 01:19:53.192
So, no, it's not a sin if you get sealed to someone else who's living and your first wife has passed away.
01:19:53.233 --> 01:19:53.493
No.
01:19:53.512 --> 01:19:55.956
In fact, you're encouraged to remarry.
01:19:56.296 --> 01:19:59.680
But if they're alive, then, yeah, that's a problem.
01:20:00.561 --> 01:20:02.204
Okay, this is the last page.
01:20:03.086 --> 01:20:04.287
There are three questions.
01:20:05.609 --> 01:20:06.951
They're all about repentance.
01:20:08.393 --> 01:20:12.137
And I think these are actually very thoughtful questions.
01:20:12.898 --> 01:20:18.966
So to conclude, can you just read all three of these questions and we'll just discuss this whole idea?
01:20:18.985 --> 01:20:19.046
Yes.
01:20:21.248 --> 01:20:21.729
Okay.
01:20:22.310 --> 01:20:23.011
Yeah, absolutely.
01:20:23.131 --> 01:20:25.875
Repenting is repairing a broken relationship with God.
01:20:25.914 --> 01:20:30.180
Repenting requires coming to think and feel differently.
01:20:30.199 --> 01:20:40.594
A commandment is something you have to do, and if you don't do it, you are condemned, regardless of effort, circumstances, or intention.
01:20:42.881 --> 01:20:45.185
Those are very thoughtful questions, I think.
01:20:45.225 --> 01:20:50.091
They're some of the good questions compared to the others, some of the others for sure.
01:20:50.672 --> 01:20:53.155
So yeah, so repenting is repairing a broken relationship.
01:20:53.336 --> 01:20:53.596
Yes.
01:20:54.158 --> 01:20:55.059
You know, we make a mistake.
01:20:55.378 --> 01:20:56.440
We recognize the mistake.
01:20:56.480 --> 01:20:57.882
It's that pattern again, isn't it?
01:20:58.222 --> 01:20:58.963
We feel sorry.
01:20:58.984 --> 01:21:00.006
We make restitution.
01:21:00.426 --> 01:21:01.287
We seek forgiveness.
01:21:01.887 --> 01:21:03.029
We're stronger and better for it.
01:21:03.069 --> 01:21:03.791
We learn lessons.
01:21:03.850 --> 01:21:04.631
We're closer to God.
01:21:04.912 --> 01:21:05.913
We feel God's forgiveness.
01:21:05.934 --> 01:21:06.595
We feel his love.
01:21:07.095 --> 01:21:07.676
We're closer.
01:21:08.117 --> 01:21:08.597
I like that.
01:21:08.797 --> 01:21:11.622
That is familiar with me, to me.
01:21:13.122 --> 01:21:18.506
The idea of thinking and feeling differently, I think, is very powerful too.
01:21:18.546 --> 01:21:28.936
It is because if we're honest and we're humble, we make a mistake and we acknowledge it and we repair it and we apologize and seek forgiveness from other people and make restitution.
01:21:28.997 --> 01:21:34.242
Well, we see ourselves differently, we think differently, we feel differently.
01:21:34.662 --> 01:21:41.890
Hopefully we're wiser and we have a much more spiritual depth and spiritual maturity.
01:21:42.210 --> 01:21:43.291
because of the experience.
01:21:43.372 --> 01:21:46.074
So again, I think that's, I agree with you.
01:21:46.114 --> 01:21:48.618
I think it's a thoughtful comment statement.
01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:58.251
The last one is interesting too, because this is the idea of if you don't do something, you're condemned regardless of effort, circumstances, or intention.
01:21:59.051 --> 01:22:09.765
One of the great things that the church teaches and has taught me all my life is that it is your intention that matters even more than your action.
01:22:10.529 --> 01:22:13.273
that it is possible to do the wrong thing for the right reason.
01:22:13.453 --> 01:22:15.734
It's possible to do the right thing for the wrong reason.
01:22:17.036 --> 01:22:27.145
And it's the 133rd section, I think, the one that was added in 1978, but it was Joseph Smith's Vision of the Celestial Kingdom.
01:22:28.367 --> 01:22:37.555
And he saw Alvin in the Celestial Kingdom, and he marveled that Alvin would get there because he died before the gospel was restored.
01:22:38.716 --> 01:22:47.766
And In the course of that revelation, the Lord says, I judge all men by their actions and by the desires of their heart.
01:22:49.368 --> 01:23:06.416
And so I think that's what ends up ultimately saving all of us, is that the desires of our heart, this is why I think that there's sort of a universal salvation, because we all want the same thing.
01:23:06.496 --> 01:23:07.478
We all want love.
01:23:07.905 --> 01:23:10.047
We all want a connection to the divine.
01:23:10.068 --> 01:23:12.449
We all want a connection to each other.
01:23:12.470 --> 01:23:25.823
And so there are people in this world that are in circumstances where they will never understand or hear about the restored gospel or any kind of gospel.
01:23:26.944 --> 01:23:29.725
And yet they have the right desires of their heart.
01:23:30.287 --> 01:23:31.587
Their intentions are good.
01:23:31.608 --> 01:23:34.650
They're seeking that connection.
01:23:34.690 --> 01:23:41.596
And we are taught, very explicitly that that's how we're judged.
01:23:41.858 --> 01:23:43.578
We're judged by where our heart is.
01:23:44.921 --> 01:23:45.640
Do you agree with that?
01:23:45.661 --> 01:23:45.680
I
01:23:45.721 --> 01:23:47.403
do.
01:23:47.904 --> 01:23:48.965
I do agree with that.
01:23:49.005 --> 01:23:50.947
Two thoughts on this.
01:23:51.027 --> 01:23:52.287
I know we're going to conclude here.
01:23:52.328 --> 01:23:57.613
A commandment, for example, is not to have sex before marriage, right?
01:23:57.873 --> 01:23:59.515
Can you just make the question a bit bigger?
01:23:59.555 --> 01:24:01.136
Could you go back to the question?
01:24:01.858 --> 01:24:02.599
Oh, yeah.
01:24:02.759 --> 01:24:04.301
I took it down.
01:24:04.940 --> 01:24:05.402
That's okay.
01:24:05.634 --> 01:24:12.404
Okay, so if it's a commandment not to have sex before marriage, let's go into the question.
01:24:12.425 --> 01:24:13.846
You made the question a bit bigger so I could read it.
01:24:13.867 --> 01:24:18.755
Thank you.
01:24:19.395 --> 01:24:25.425
So a commandment is something you have to do, and if you don't do it, you're condemned, regardless of effort, circumstance, or intention.
01:24:25.685 --> 01:24:31.574
So let's say, you know, you have sex before marriage.
01:24:32.917 --> 01:24:35.511
It's Completely against the commandment.
01:24:35.671 --> 01:24:36.673
You're told not to.
01:24:37.494 --> 01:24:38.395
Commanded not to.
01:24:38.435 --> 01:24:41.020
And if you do, you're condemned.
01:24:41.881 --> 01:24:46.027
But you can say, well, I tried not to have sex, but I did.
01:24:46.067 --> 01:24:49.011
The circumstances were against me.
01:24:49.051 --> 01:24:50.313
I got myself into a situation.
01:24:50.332 --> 01:24:53.197
I didn't intend to get myself in that situation.
01:24:53.698 --> 01:24:58.264
But in the church's eyes, you can say, you know, I made a mistake, but you're condemned.
01:24:58.304 --> 01:25:00.466
And so...
01:25:03.746 --> 01:25:11.636
But if you tried your best and you fail because he's human, I don't think you're condemned.
01:25:12.036 --> 01:25:15.900
In fact, the church says you're not condemned because you can seek forgiveness.
01:25:17.403 --> 01:25:18.685
So yeah, it's a commandment.
01:25:19.145 --> 01:25:21.689
You make a mistake and the church says I made a mistake.
01:25:22.309 --> 01:25:22.970
You're condemned.
01:25:23.010 --> 01:25:24.652
That sounds a bit permanent to me.
01:25:24.692 --> 01:25:28.596
You're not really condemned because you can seek forgiveness.
01:25:29.037 --> 01:25:31.261
I think murder is the only one that you can't...
01:25:32.386 --> 01:25:36.171
get forgiven by anything that we're not sure about.
01:25:36.192 --> 01:25:53.778
And the last comment on that, a thought on that, is I remind ourselves of the Scripture, 2 Nephi 25-23, which I think your last few comments you may have been alluding to, at least reminding me of the Scripture, which says here, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do.
01:25:53.818 --> 01:25:55.921
So we do the very best we can.
01:25:55.940 --> 01:25:57.122
We're human.
01:25:57.923 --> 01:25:59.326
We hopefully make good decisions.
01:26:00.194 --> 01:26:03.920
We get ourselves into situations or other people put themselves in situations.
01:26:04.461 --> 01:26:06.324
We are weak in regards to the flesh.
01:26:06.385 --> 01:26:07.126
We make mistakes.
01:26:08.087 --> 01:26:11.153
We're not condemned for eternity because we have the power of forgiveness.
01:26:12.014 --> 01:26:13.235
And we seek forgiveness.
01:26:13.317 --> 01:26:15.300
We repent and we change and improve.
01:26:16.242 --> 01:26:21.069
And therefore, we can restore our relationship with God.
01:26:21.090 --> 01:26:22.712
And in the end, we can...
01:26:24.033 --> 01:26:25.836
return to God through forgiveness.
01:26:26.235 --> 01:26:32.662
We say by grace, the grace of Christ, the grace of God, after all we can do.
01:26:34.203 --> 01:26:52.561
Okay, that is a really powerful way to end this, because that scripture is being employed, usually employed, to say something that is directly opposite of what it was intended to say.
01:26:53.698 --> 01:26:55.899
There's a guy named Dan McClellan.
01:26:55.939 --> 01:26:58.342
He has a great podcast called Data Over Dogma.
01:26:59.144 --> 01:27:03.649
And he used to work for the church as the head of the scriptural translator department.
01:27:04.448 --> 01:27:06.912
And he wrote a paper for BYU about that scripture.
01:27:07.993 --> 01:27:15.020
And that phrase, after all we can do, is employed by leaders of the church.
01:27:15.100 --> 01:27:16.722
It's now part of the temple ceremony.
01:27:16.962 --> 01:27:18.503
They bring that into the temple ceremony.
01:27:19.645 --> 01:27:31.369
And The intention behind that phrase, as interpreted in a 21st century context, is, okay, do everything you can do, and then Christ's grace makes up the rest.
01:27:33.332 --> 01:27:45.926
And what Dan McClellan pointed out in his paper is that in the 19th century, the phrase after all we can do is very similar to a phrase like when we talk about, well, at the end of the day.
01:27:45.966 --> 01:27:53.730
In other words, what it really means is not after all we can do.
01:27:54.733 --> 01:27:57.136
It means essentially despite all we can do.
01:27:59.199 --> 01:28:02.305
Like we use the phrase, at the end of the day, what really matters is grace.
01:28:03.367 --> 01:28:08.274
You know, after all we can do, what really matters is grace, is what this verse means.
01:28:09.396 --> 01:28:15.345
We have this idea in the church that we somehow earn our salvation.
01:28:16.046 --> 01:28:21.088
And that was even, I remember, we would show Man's Search for Happiness.
01:28:22.250 --> 01:28:23.490
There were two versions of it.
01:28:23.551 --> 01:28:27.354
There was the 1950s version, and then there was a new version.
01:28:28.595 --> 01:28:33.801
And in the 1950s version, it made a distinction between salvation and exaltation.
01:28:34.962 --> 01:28:42.207
And it said everybody is saved by grace, but exaltation, salvation is a free gift.
01:28:42.368 --> 01:28:43.369
We're saved by grace.
01:28:44.371 --> 01:28:49.006
But exaltation must be Earned.
01:28:49.466 --> 01:28:50.649
They used the word earned.
01:28:50.868 --> 01:28:52.011
It must be earned.
01:28:52.992 --> 01:29:05.307
And they took that out of the newer version, the one with Marvin Payne, who is a friend of mine and is a delightful man who hates Donald Trump even more than I do.
01:29:07.591 --> 01:29:09.854
But they took that out.
01:29:09.934 --> 01:29:17.667
And I remember talking to Robert Millett, who was a BYU professor who wrote a number of books with Joseph Fielding McConkie.
01:29:17.807 --> 01:29:23.076
And I said, and he wrote, he's the one who wrote a couple of books about grace.
01:29:24.198 --> 01:29:25.539
And I asked him about that.
01:29:25.680 --> 01:29:29.765
And he said, yeah, that was taken out because it's, it's, it's incorrect.
01:29:30.127 --> 01:29:31.588
We don't earn our salvation.
01:29:32.050 --> 01:29:33.652
We are saved by grace.
01:29:34.273 --> 01:29:45.743
And we are so terrified of embracing the universal implications of that, that we try to do everything we can to To say, but make sure you do this and make sure you do that.
01:29:45.783 --> 01:29:48.568
And if you're not married in the temple and if you're not, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
01:29:49.270 --> 01:30:00.792
You know, to scare people, essentially, that all is lost if they don't, you know, as you use this phrase many times, if they don't live with exactness.
01:30:02.154 --> 01:30:05.962
And the grace of Christ is far more encompassing than that.
01:30:06.881 --> 01:30:08.344
And that's what I believe.
01:30:08.404 --> 01:30:10.126
If that makes me a heretic, so be it.
01:30:10.206 --> 01:30:17.735
I think I'm in very good company, and I think I'm consistent with the scriptures and with God on that.
01:30:18.716 --> 01:30:26.247
I commend the church to anyone, and I think the temple is wonderful, and the blessings of the temple can enrich your life.
01:30:27.207 --> 01:30:31.854
I think that after all we can do, it's grace that saves us.
01:30:32.865 --> 01:30:37.135
And that's where I'm going to...
01:30:37.154 --> 01:30:40.341
So hopefully the church learned from this.
01:30:41.104 --> 01:30:42.226
I've certainly learned a lot.
01:30:42.247 --> 01:30:44.591
We're coming in at just about an hour and a half.
01:30:45.394 --> 01:30:46.737
We've gone longer than this before.
01:30:47.438 --> 01:30:49.122
But we've covered all the questions.
01:30:49.202 --> 01:30:50.865
Don't you feel a sense of accomplishment?
01:30:51.521 --> 01:30:51.962
I do.
01:30:52.143 --> 01:30:53.844
I find the questions fascinating.
01:30:53.904 --> 01:30:55.105
There's some thinking behind them.
01:30:55.166 --> 01:30:57.427
The questions have been put together very carefully.
01:30:57.448 --> 01:31:00.150
I'm sure some apostles have been intimately involved in the questions.
01:31:00.171 --> 01:31:08.220
The church doesn't put this stuff out without careful preparation and, you know, being scrutinizing the questions and being, you know, really a lot of effort going into this.
01:31:08.260 --> 01:31:10.021
And then they pull the question there.
01:31:11.783 --> 01:31:13.024
This has been incredibly insightful.
01:31:13.145 --> 01:31:14.065
I've learned a heck of a lot.
01:31:14.185 --> 01:31:14.907
I hope the listeners have.
01:31:15.448 --> 01:31:16.108
I've enjoyed it.
01:31:16.668 --> 01:31:17.630
And I hope...
01:31:18.113 --> 01:31:23.219
You have, and I hope all of the listeners have had an interesting experience following this.
01:31:24.920 --> 01:31:25.740
I hope so too.
01:31:26.041 --> 01:31:29.684
And I'm very grateful to be able to have this discussion with you.
01:31:29.744 --> 01:31:32.106
And I'm very grateful for all of you who are listening.
01:31:32.127 --> 01:31:33.988
We very much appreciate it.
01:31:34.028 --> 01:31:40.314
And we look forward to talking with you again next week and the next episode of Inside Out.
01:31:40.935 --> 01:31:41.895
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:31:41.935 --> 01:31:43.657
Thank you, Jim.
01:31:45.798 --> 01:31:46.340
All right.
01:31:46.520 --> 01:31:46.880
I'm stopping.