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00:00:31.004Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom and powered by all the mo pros out there.
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00:00:34.899I'm your host, michael Hartman, joined today by my co-host, mike Rizzo.
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00:00:36.503It's been a long time, mike.
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00:00:38.570It has been a long time, far too long.
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00:00:41.844There's not much going on for you right, yeah no.
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00:00:44.153How far away is Spring?
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00:00:44.736Fling Spring.
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00:00:45.859Fling is like two weeks.
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00:00:54.310As of recording this episode.
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00:00:56.195We're about three weeks, a little like right around three weeks.
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00:00:57.579It's on the 21st, so, yeah, basically three.
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00:00:58.160Yeah, got it, got it.
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00:01:05.557Well, joining Mike and me today to talk about how to streamline go-to-market execution is Sebastian Hidalgo and Gareth Robinson.
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00:01:14.663Sebastian is co-founder and head of sales RevExcel and a sales trainer and business strategist with Sipnotic.
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00:01:16.635I should have practiced that ahead of time.
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00:01:21.776His previous experience includes working in marketing consulting as a product owner, as well as his current ventures.
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00:01:32.378On top of that, sebastian has been trained in hostage negotiations and applies those principles to the domain and how he approaches training for sales, which is, I thought, interesting on its own right.
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00:01:36.320Gareth may be a familiar name to our longtime listeners.
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00:01:37.855Gareth has been a guest before.
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00:01:39.780He is co-founder and head of marketing for WebExcel.
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00:01:45.355He has held both in-house consulting and fractional roles in marketing, marketing, ops and leadership.
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00:01:48.599He's also started multiple companies and served in the US Army.
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00:01:52.115Sebastian and Gareth, thank you and Gareth, thanks for your service again.
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00:01:57.733Yeah, michael, thank you, and it's great to be on with you guys again, so thank you for having us.
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00:02:03.539Yeah, and for our listeners you might now guess that Sebastian is.
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00:02:06.719He's not here in the United States.
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00:02:08.653Gareth is joining us from Germany.
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00:02:11.561So I think we figured out before this.
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00:02:18.838We've got three of the four US time zones covered, four major ones and then one in Europe.
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00:02:23.699That's the beauty of the remote world we all live in.
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00:02:25.153Now I'll just get to hang out.
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00:02:28.111It doesn't matter where we're at, it's really global.
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00:02:29.917Yeah, exactly it is.
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00:02:35.580Yeah, well, let's get things going here.
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00:02:54.716So, gareth, one of the things you and I discussed is the importance of being able to execute I would add, quickly, execute, efficiently, whatever and that it's often underrated capability, especially when it comes to being compared to like strategy, which tends to get more attention.
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00:03:02.240So I'm curious, like I'm a big believer that being able to move quickly and learn and adjust is an important one.
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00:03:10.462It's not that I don't discount strategy, but, like A, I guess, do you see the same kind of thing out there and why do you think that's the case?
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00:03:11.586I'll leave it, gareth.
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00:03:12.830Why don't you maybe start us?
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00:03:25.520and then, sebastian, if you want to add yeah, you know, um, you know that's a great question and I think you and I, um, last time we were on together, we we actually ended up spending like quite some time talking about this.
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00:03:42.483And you know, it's kind of boils down to that notion that, like you know, I think in a lot of organizations in my experience, the idea that, you know, speed equals like a lack of focus, equals a lack of intentionality, equals a lack of control.
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00:03:48.230And you and I had had a really great conversation around how speed is something that develops over time.
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00:03:52.322It's not something, you know, we don't just come out of the gates launching campaigns.
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00:03:55.159You know, implementing a CRM or whatever it is.
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00:03:59.294You know, this idea around the speed of execution is something that develops over time.
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00:04:05.436And you know, what we had kind of talked about was that comes through frontline execution.
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00:04:17.257And you know, I think when we were talking about this, the conversation was rooted in, as we were kind of developing our services here at RevExcel, we were having conversations.
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00:04:28.792Really the root issues kept boiling back down to yeah, we can build you a great data model, we can set up all the systems in the world, all the automations, the signals and all of that, and that's great.
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00:04:40.301But if that frontline team doesn't have the trust of the executive leadership team and if they don't have clarity on what they need to execute on in a day-to-day basis, that all kind of falls apart.
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00:04:45.375And when we talk about speed, we're not really talking about like zero to 100 execution.
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00:04:50.291We're really talking about like zero to 50 and then 50 to 60 and 60 to 70.
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00:04:55.951And as we get used to, what should we be executing on a frontline basis, on a day-to-day basis?
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00:04:58.677I think that's where the speed comes from.
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00:05:02.610But really that's not only like a bottom-up function.
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00:05:13.481I think leadership teams tend to kind of look at that of like, well, you know, we trust you to just go figure it out and go make it happen, and you know, I think we've all been in those kind of roles and it's great for learning.
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00:05:18.081But when we're in a growth stage company, that tends to kind of break down over time.
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00:05:27.985And so when we talk about frontline execution, we're talking about how does marketing really all this boils down to is how does marketing become the spearhead for sales?
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00:05:30.633And really all this boils down to is how does marketing become the spearhead for sales?
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00:05:41.844And you know, kind of one of the issues that I think marketers run into a lot of times is the perception that marketing is a support function or the perception that marketing is lagging behind the sales.
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00:05:44.667And I don't think it's because you know marketers are lazy.
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00:05:54.739I don't think it's because you know marketers don't have the chops to kind of live at the same speed as sales.
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00:06:07.400I think a lot of it comes down to we just don't know how to act on these signals, we don't know how to act on this execution, and I don't have and having been in this position before of I don't have clarity on what my weekly priorities are, and I don't have clarity on what do I need to be focused on on a day-to-day basis.
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00:06:11.586So that's where this whole conversation really kind of stems from.
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00:06:16.914Sebastian, what are your thoughts on all this?
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00:06:18.620Speed.
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00:06:24.961Speed is a big topic, especially, you know, having worked in tech.
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00:06:35.623I saw everybody talking about the need to be agile and somehow, in those same environments, you talked about speed and everybody stepped back.
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00:06:49.859And at the same time, you talk about strategy and also everybody stepped back, because it's like we have in companies, this syndrome where we see strategy and execution being two separate things, whereas one thing is dead without the other.
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00:07:08.018And speed, in particular, matters right now in everything that's go-to-market related, sales related, because the market isn't waiting for anybody, the train has to leave the station and the train has to leave the station applies to the people we sell to, to the people we market to.
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00:07:13.759They don't have time, they are overwhelmed, they are constantly pitched to.
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00:07:35.038So we cannot afford to not have speed, both at the strategy level and at the front-end level, because, in my opinion, now that AI is upon us right and that's undeniable it's changing how we do business, it's changing how we approach every single aspect of business.
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00:07:51.302But, with AI being upon us, the last two competitive advantages that we truly have, the last two modes that we have, are connection and speed, and I see marketing as connection and sales as speed.
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00:08:13.701If you have both of those things lined up in your business, then you have a machine that's well-oiled and that can actually allow you, enable you, to out-compete somebody else in the market, because there are companies out there that have connection and speed built into their culture and you will never beat them at any other game, because that is the name of the game.
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00:08:15.673Now everything changes so fast.
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00:08:22.996Connection and speed are the last two modes of business that's.
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00:08:31.499That's an interesting take that it just occurred to me like one of my all-time favorite books I reckon to be recommend in a business context is called.
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00:08:39.053The title is Execution, subtitles the Discipline of Getting Things Done, and it talks about the importance of strategy to a point.
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00:08:47.403But that focus on execution and that sort of knowing doing gap is kind of it's a variation of that, I think, of sort of knowing doing gap is kind of it's a variation of that, I think.
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00:08:48.803And it's it's so.
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00:08:51.326It's been around for 15, 20 years so in the back of my head.
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00:08:56.855That's why I've always thought that strategy is important.
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00:09:07.939At the same time, if you can't actually execute on what you say you're going to do and deliver on what you committed to, then it's kind of just you know words on a piece of paper or words now in a virtual piece of paper.
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00:09:09.961It also Do you have something to say Gareth.
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00:09:11.988It also concerns conception.
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00:09:13.014You know, last time.
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00:09:19.899Go Gareth, oh my apologies, I have a one-second delay, so I apologize, guys.
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00:09:38.956You know, last time we spoke, you know we had kind of talked about this and where this really kind of formulated for me and that was, you know, about a year ago, we were working with a commercial real estate company and in that world, speed to lead is king.
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00:09:43.336The first person to contact has a 90% close rate within the first 60 seconds.
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00:09:59.069And you know, a lot of times we're talking about deals that are half a million or a million or, you know, millions of dollars overall, and at the time when we were working with this company, ai agents and bots really weren't where they needed to be to kind of lean into that.
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00:10:06.495But through that we realized I'm working with this company and I'm like man, this is interesting.
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00:10:11.115I've never been in a sales environment where it's like you have to truly be on top of your game.
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00:10:16.929You have a 60 second window to get in front of that lead and these are qualified leads.
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00:10:43.547You know they fill out a form that's like, hey, we're wanting to sell this property, we're shopping this property, and so, you know, a little bit later down the line, you know we're doing some more deep research and I think part of this research was something that Mopros had put out, and it was along the lines that 70% of buyers are basically showing up about anywhere from 70% to 90% of the way through their purchasing or through the buying process.
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00:10:58.430Now, so they're showing up to the table with the information they need and I think, like we had talked about, it's like at this point in sales, whether you're in SaaS, whether you're in manufacturing, et cetera, if a prospect is coming to you, they are nailing their.
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00:11:01.889They're at this point, they're nailing their decision down to maybe two or three options.
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00:11:04.218They have most of the information that they need.
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00:11:09.454They're just giving you a chance to screw it up at the end of the day, and you know.
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00:11:20.970So when we kind of talk about that, it's like okay, this idea that you know we're going to marketing passes off a lead to sales and we're going to wait 72 hours or we're going to wait 96 hours to get in front of that lead.
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00:11:31.153I think those days are gone Now when we talk about speed should have been gone a long time ago, like yeah, I'm getting sick, like my, my neck is just getting sick.
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00:11:36.11972 hours, please no 72 hour SLA, let's go.
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00:11:39.709I just don't think that's going to work in today's environment anymore.
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00:11:44.249And maybe it does work for some companies that might have longer sales processes.
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00:11:44.990I don't know.
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00:11:54.221But I think this is where things are really shifting and I think salespeople are adapting to this a lot better than marketers.
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00:12:14.702This kind of comes back to the conversation of marketers really understanding how can we be the spearhead for sales, how can we get out in front of these signals, whether it's a new lead that filled out a qualified form of like hey, I'm ready to buy and then we can kind of get into the conversation of something that never really gets talked about a lot.
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00:12:21.973We can kind of get into the conversation of something that never really gets talked about a lot, having been in companies myself before, where marketing you know you come in from one company where you see how sales is done the right way.
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00:12:25.207You come into a new company and it's like marketing hands off a lead.
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00:12:28.396They're like all right, see, I have fun with that, let us know how it goes.
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00:12:32.752And we really need to talk about how marketing and sales are oscillating functions.
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00:12:43.313You know, maybe marketing passes that lead off sales qualifies and we can't just pretend like we're just going to throw them in a nurture track and then they're going to come back to us, because that's not how we build relationships.
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00:12:47.055That's just how we sustain, you know, interaction.
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00:12:48.631That's just how we sustain engagement.
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00:13:04.034But then marketing still needs to be able to come back to the table and find a way to get back in front of those leads and stay relevant, provide content, provide information and like, for instance, one of the pieces of feedback we've gotten from three or four different companies in the last month.
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00:13:11.327These are companies that have long technical sales processes, so we're talking nine to 18 months, somewhere in that range.
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00:13:29.848Very high value, you know, ticket items $100,000 plus deals and it's this idea that like, hey, our sales guys, they're great at closing when we actually have a qualified deal, come through the pipeline and we get those terms into an opportunity, we can close those really well.
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00:13:37.576But where we're really struggling now is getting out in front of these leads and truly establishing that trust and establishing a relationship up front.
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00:13:42.034And then again, you know this kind of not to like beat marketing.
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00:13:52.019I'm speaking as a marketer who's gone through these things and just kind of seen how these things play out in the sense that I think this is where marketers are really struggling right now.
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00:14:00.732It's like, yes, we have all the AI tools, now we have HubSpot, we have Salesforce, we have HubSpot, we have Salesforce, we have amazing tech stacks, but, at the end of the day, like that's not going to do the heavy lifting for us.
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00:14:03.712Marketing still has to get out in front of these things.
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00:14:10.226Marketing still has to be attached at the hip of the sales team and being proactive hey, what do you guys need from us?
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00:14:21.440And too much of the marketing that gets done almost gets treated as like plug and play, like well, we've got the nurture tracks, we've got this, we just need to roll out some campaigns, we'll be fine, everything will take care of itself.
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00:14:28.079And it just doesn't work like that anymore.
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00:14:39.509Yeah, look, I'm going to jump in just to add some, I don't know, like additional thoughts, color, maybe spicy takes, I don't know.
00:14:39.509 -->
00:14:40.891We'll see what happens, but, like I, I I agree with you.
00:14:40.891 -->
00:14:47.529Um, I think that you know I come from a B2B, SaaS sort of background.
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00:14:53.009Obviously sales motions vary, uh, based on your industry and the types of products you're selling and all that stuff.
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00:14:58.558But fundamentally, relationships matter, right?
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00:14:59.889People buy from people.
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00:15:07.289At the end of the day, More often than not they buy from people who truly understand their problem and are trying to solve their problem.
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00:15:22.793And what's interesting about the sort of go-to-market motion between that marketing and sales sort of handoff, is that marketing as we've sort of pictured it.
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00:15:28.596I think if I say the word marketing and sales, two different images probably come to my mind.
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00:15:29.660I don't know about you all.
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00:15:33.910Yeah, One is this sort of like.
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00:15:35.273I don't know.
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00:15:39.699When I say marketing, I see this sort of just like this brand, it's just a logo.
00:15:39.699 -->
00:15:44.894So the word marketing in and of itself is a logo, it's a brand, it's an entity.
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00:15:45.557Pretty pictures.
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00:15:46.418Right.
00:15:46.925 -->
00:15:51.576Like yeah, I think it's like it's the aspect of the brand itself.
00:15:51.576 -->
00:15:57.846When I say sales, I picture a person of the brand itself.
00:15:57.846 -->
00:15:58.709When I say sales, I picture a person.
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00:16:00.957More often than not I picture some young salesperson that is talking to me about their thing.
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00:16:03.987Right, I don't think of it as an apartment, I don't think of it as the brand.
00:16:03.987 -->
00:16:12.030But what's interesting is there's actually kind of like an intersection and you hit on it, gareth right when there's actually this like gap.
00:16:12.030 -->
00:16:17.978It's not even an intersection, there's a gap still, and and I and and I'll I'll share the gap in a moment.
00:16:18.019 -->
00:16:24.995But you, you kind of touched on it where you said, hey, our salespeople can close deals and they're really good at that.
00:16:24.995 -->
00:16:38.615And I agree, salespeople who are good at closing deals know how to get the right information out, talk to them about their pain points and move the deal structure along, because there's an art to that.
00:16:38.615 -->
00:16:46.812They're critical to a successful organization and you should hire really good salespeople that can close deals and move that deal along.
00:16:46.812 -->
00:16:57.819Their job, while you would consider it to be relationship building, is in pursuit of to close a deal.
00:16:57.819 -->
00:17:15.746The ones who are really good at it figure out how to find relevant information and retain and recall back to the conversations that they've had to say hey, I just saw this thing that I think you might find helpful.
00:17:15.746 -->
00:17:18.073Let me know when you're ready to jump back on a call.
00:17:18.073 -->
00:17:19.486We can talk through some of this stuff.
00:17:19.486 -->
00:17:25.611Maybe it has nothing to do with our product right, they're doing a good job of relationship building but their job isn't.
00:17:25.812 -->
00:17:29.487Yeah, they're storytelling but their job is in pursuit of closing a deal.
00:17:29.487 -->
00:17:31.210I think there's still a gap.
00:17:31.210 -->
00:17:40.509The gap is that someone needs to be there going who in, and you know you might be like oh, that's marketing's job.
00:17:40.509 -->
00:17:50.968It's like, well, maybe, but every marketer that I've ever met, for the most part, is like I don't want to be the person who's on a video phone call trying to sell our product to somebody.
00:17:50.968 -->
00:17:52.489I just want to put the right information.
00:17:52.489 -->
00:18:31.935My face isn't a part of this, my logo is, and so I don't feel like I want to go figure out how to say oh, look, I found like 10 prospects in our database that have this specific pain point and I know that they would find this valuable, and so I'm going to send them an email right, we think from the brand's messaging perspective, and the sales rep is supposed to somehow find that information that we found that we created for them on the marketing side and say, oh yeah, here's these 10 accounts that I need to give this to, and really they're like well, that deal's not far enough along, I need to go focus on the one that's going to close.
00:18:31.935 -->
00:18:33.906And so there's a gap still.
00:18:34.206 -->
00:18:43.059Somebody needs needs to fill the gap of of like, how do I bring value to these people so that I can have them trust us?
00:18:43.905 -->
00:19:01.915And if trust is the currency that everything is sort of built upon, then there's still sort of this thing that's missing, and I think that's the exciting part of what's happening in AI and marketing operations to sort of bring this whole circle, like the speed and efficacy of your ability to go to market.
00:19:01.915 -->
00:19:33.870Today, the great enabler is AI, because it allows you at some point, when implemented correctly, with all the right data and infrastructure and connected ecosystem, you can now, as a marketing team, teach your sales reps to say hey, ai bot, whatever right AI tool we built, can you pull up the 10 accounts that this piece of content we just produced would be most relevant for and help me personalize an email to them, because I know we have at least five right.
00:19:33.870 -->
00:19:45.250Yeah, okay, great, now I can figure out how to bring this stuff to market in a way that builds on relationships, and maybe the sales rep can do it.
00:19:45.250 -->
00:19:56.814Maybe it's somebody else, but I still think that, ultimately, there's somebody who's responsible for building relationships and it's not the brand necessarily.
00:19:57.865 -->
00:19:59.672I'd be curious to get Sebastian's take on this.
00:20:00.212 -->
00:20:00.855Yeah, sorry.
00:20:01.385 -->
00:20:04.895I feel like, Sebastian, you're kind of representing the sales viewpoint on all this.
00:20:06.846 -->
00:20:11.010I have a controversial take on all of this meaning.
00:20:12.093 -->
00:20:16.980I don't believe anymore in separated sales and marketing teams.
00:20:16.980 -->
00:20:17.941I hate that distinction.
00:20:17.941 -->
00:20:20.629It's one team and it's the revenue team.
00:20:20.629 -->
00:20:30.970You either call it the brand team because in the end, there is nothing that impacts your reputation more as a company, especially in B2B, as a good or a bad salesperson.
00:20:30.970 -->
00:20:37.267So a salesperson is literally the embodiment of your brand at any given point in the customer journey.
00:20:37.267 -->
00:20:40.713So we either call it the revenue team or the brand team.
00:20:40.713 -->
00:20:44.088Probably in B2B we're going to call it the revenue team.
00:20:44.088 -->
00:20:44.730Good.
00:20:45.292 -->
00:20:49.185Now what I notice is that the equation is always backwards.
00:20:49.185 -->
00:20:52.435There's always marketers and even brand strategists.
00:20:52.435 -->
00:20:59.312There's always these two figures trying to fit to sales talking points based on research that was produced.
00:20:59.312 -->
00:21:05.512I don't know, maybe we hired a market research agency to produce these nice concepts about our ideal customer.
00:21:05.512 -->
00:21:07.076Well, guess what?
00:21:07.076 -->
00:21:20.191Hiring a market research agency and I've been there because I tried to hire many when I was working for other companies is a mess, because there is a sales cycle and then you have to agree on the topics and then they have to do the research and then they have to present the results.
00:21:20.191 -->
00:21:24.553That takes three to six months.
00:21:24.553 -->
00:21:28.894Good, the information you got after six months is outdated by the time you got it.
00:21:28.894 -->
00:21:36.946So you just throw a bunch of money in the trash to have talking points that your prospects don't relate to anymore.
00:21:36.946 -->
00:21:45.910Why do we waste money on those things when the salesperson is the person that's doing live market research by talking to prospects?
00:21:45.910 -->
00:21:59.593So the information loop has to start from sales and go into marketing, then pushes back into the market the kind of content, the kind of interaction that attracts an ideal customer.
00:21:59.593 -->
00:22:00.936So that's backwards.
00:22:01.545 -->
00:22:08.013And another point that I want to bring is yes, many companies are very good at closing when they get somebody in front of them.
00:22:08.013 -->
00:22:09.609Every time I hear that.
00:22:09.609 -->
00:22:19.710What I hear is we are very good at closing every time somebody has a strong enough pain that they're just begging for mercy and they want it to stop and now we can close them.
00:22:19.710 -->
00:22:30.953What I don't hear is oh, our sales reps excel at building relationships and they are very good at influencing our prospects into making them understand that our solution is the best for them.
00:22:30.953 -->
00:22:31.876Because that's sales.
00:22:32.685 -->
00:22:42.754Sales is a craft where you build a relationship with the goal of building influence over somebody else so that they trust you with solving their problems.
00:22:42.754 -->
00:22:49.134Now, if you solve the problem of every person, that's suffering extremely much from what they're going through.
00:22:49.134 -->
00:23:00.894Yes, you can say we close a bunch of deals and we're good at that, and I'm very skeptical again, because what I hear is our sales reps don't know how to build relationships, so we only close the ones that would close anyway.
00:23:00.894 -->
00:23:03.171And so those are my two takes.
00:23:03.171 -->
00:23:20.104Sales has to fit information to marketing, and most of the teams that think they're good at closing are actually leaving at least a 12% or 20% more of deals on the table actually leaving at least a 12% or 20% more of deals on the table.
00:23:22.225 -->
00:23:24.860It's interesting that you bring up this point that sales is like the embodiment of the brand out in the market.
00:23:24.860 -->
00:23:54.574If you will right, and because I've for a long time and maybe it's because I was in sales for a little while I've thought most very often not utilized resource for, like you said, market research is the sales team, and I would like encourage marketers who have not actually been in front of customers either go do that Right, or sit in on calls or listen to calls or whatever, because what you're going to find is the language that's used may not be on brand, but if it works, who the hell cares?
00:23:54.574 -->
00:23:57.128May not be on brand, but if it works, who the hell cares?
00:23:57.128 -->
00:24:00.595It's like adjust the language to match the customer's pain.
00:24:01.776 -->
00:24:08.889So I want to get back to Can I touch on the trust piece real quick?
00:24:08.889 -->
00:24:19.932And I think also, when we're talking about trust, it's not just like hey, I'm a nice person, you know, I have a great personal brand and I look the part it's, you know.
00:24:19.932 -->
00:24:29.165I think the foundational layer of trust is how we talk about it in sales is can I trust you deliver to deliver, can I trust your company to deliver on this promise?
00:24:29.165 -->
00:24:40.550And what evidence do you have, both past evidence plus current evidence what evidence do you have that I can trust you to deliver?
00:24:40.550 -->
00:24:45.113Before we ever talk about pricing, before we ever talk about features and benefits and those things I think establishing that trust.
00:24:45.345 -->
00:24:45.747I actually don't.
00:24:45.747 -->
00:24:51.007I actually think it comes before that, I actually think it comes before that and it comes down to do.
00:24:51.007 -->
00:24:53.714I trust that you have my best interest in in, in heart.
00:24:54.586 -->
00:25:03.778So, like are you actually trying to help me If it happens to be that what my company provides as a service or a product can do that, great.
00:25:03.778 -->
00:25:06.835If it can't, are you helping me find that other alternative?
00:25:06.835 -->
00:25:14.018And I think that it's actually deeper than can you deliver on what you say you can deliver?
00:25:14.018 -->
00:25:16.772Eventually it might get to that, but there's a lot that happens before that.
00:25:16.772 -->
00:25:17.536I agree Also.
00:25:22.571 -->
00:25:29.547Yeah, sometimes being trustworthy means you recognize that maybe this isn't a good fit for us and I apologize.
00:25:29.547 -->
00:25:31.113I have a one second delay.
00:25:31.113 -->
00:25:45.375I apologize, but maybe that means you know that conversation ends with hey, you know, yeah, you guys have the budget to go with us, but this isn't a good fit and you know that that could take us down the customer success um pipeline there.
00:25:45.375 -->
00:25:55.088And then we get to the, we get to retention and how bringing on that bad fit customer in the beginning leads to retention issues later on down the line.
00:25:55.088 -->
00:26:04.144Um, but yeah, I, I think you're totally right, michael what were you going to say, sebastian?
00:26:04.423 -->
00:26:13.281I was going to say that you know, the sales method we train people on at revic sales was built exactly to build that type of trust, the one you mentioned, michael, the one that do.
00:26:13.281 -->
00:26:16.295You have my best interest in mind, because there is a thing called commission breath.
00:26:16.295 -->
00:26:17.576People can't.
00:26:17.576 -->
00:26:28.671You know people's bullshit radar is so fine-tuned to every little tweak in your, in your attitude, in how you speak, in the things you say.
00:26:28.671 -->
00:26:30.318People feel the pressure.
00:26:30.318 -->
00:26:37.542That's why something I hate that people doing sales is using the word hey, following up on what we said, following up on our meeting.
00:26:37.542 -->
00:26:43.402The moment a prospect reads follow up, their, their resistance got goes all the way up here.
00:26:43.402 -->
00:26:47.460It's like, okay, follow up, he's about to pitch, he wants to pitch, he wants a meeting to pitch.
00:26:49.877 -->
00:26:54.447People love buying but they hate feeling, and this is true for every industry.
00:26:54.447 -->
00:27:09.181They hate feeling like you want to get them to buy and that's why one of the biggest things I teach in my sales methodology is that, before you introduce any solution, your relationship to a prospect is that of a doctor with a patient.
00:27:09.181 -->
00:27:15.841You don't walk to the doctor and say, doc, I have a headache, and the doctor goes hmm, you need morphine.
00:27:15.841 -->
00:27:17.566That's ridiculous.
00:27:17.566 -->
00:27:27.125What you do is you go to the doctor doc, I have a headache and, okay, the doctor starts asking you things to understand what's going wrong in your body, and then they will prescribe something.
00:27:27.125 -->
00:27:28.991That's a salesperson.
00:27:28.991 -->
00:27:35.455The salesperson prescribes a solution to a problem, but first they have to listen and first they have to put the patient first.
00:27:35.455 -->
00:27:36.858And the patient is the prospect.
00:27:39.742 -->
00:27:40.984Yeah, agreed.
00:27:40.984 -->
00:27:43.809So, yeah, we were kind of getting into.
00:27:43.809 -->
00:28:03.317There's a couple of things that are going in my head here.
00:28:03.317 -->
00:28:04.580I'm trying to figure out where to go, but you know, to get this.
00:28:04.580 -->
00:28:06.666There's like, how do you have that happen at scale and move quickly, right, how do you close those gaps?
00:28:06.666 -->
00:28:07.307How do you get teams to change?
00:28:07.307 -->
00:28:08.590Part of that is, I like to call it, the fallacy of best practices.
00:28:08.590 -->
00:28:18.359Right, there's this idea that best practices are out there that can be universally used and actually then you, to me, you don't stand out at all, right, um, because you are just like everybody else.
00:28:18.359 -->
00:28:27.666So the things like nurture, like, yeah, okay, fine, do nurture, but don't spend a lot of fucking time on it because, like, no one's waiting for the next nurture email.
00:28:28.737 -->
00:28:29.520Like literally no one.
00:28:31.154 -->
00:28:53.278So like how can you do those kinds of things and move quickly on the things that are probably not going to be beneficial and those that will, and do that at scale, that at scale, and you know, I especially I really like to get your take on like, because it's it does feel like the best practice and kind of general model in b2b is marketing does one thing right, generates leads.
00:28:53.278 -->
00:29:03.276There's some sort of handoff process sales goes to, is supposed to go, you know, research those and close them uh, and move them through the funnel, and it's like there's not this connection.
00:29:03.276 -->
00:29:04.759You mentioned that it should be one team.
00:29:04.759 -->
00:29:12.401I tend to agree, even if organizationally it's not like the way that they function should be, but like how do you do that?
00:29:12.401 -->
00:29:24.924How do you get that to happen across those teams and have and then enable them to move quickly in all those kind of domains you're entering one of my favorite topic areas, which is this is a cultural problem.
00:29:25.256 -->
00:29:32.502In the end, in a company, we're talking about a culture change If you want to implement that transition from having two separate teams to having one.
00:29:32.502 -->
00:29:45.026Now, there is something that I've consulted companies on in the past, and it's a very niche solution, and it's building what I call a cluster of effective culture.
00:29:45.026 -->
00:29:47.557What is a cluster of effective culture?
00:29:47.557 -->
00:29:59.696It is a spinoff of your two main teams that you're building that from, and you build that with people that are in sales marketing and if you have customer success, you include them too.
00:29:59.696 -->
00:30:09.447If you don't, and you're in a B2B tech company that delivers a custom software, you will need a requirements engineer, which is the other figure that's in touch with the customer at all points.
00:30:09.447 -->
00:30:11.701Why do you bring these people together?
00:30:11.701 -->
00:30:16.307You bring them together because they need to form a cluster, a cross-functional team.
00:30:16.307 -->
00:30:31.444That cross-functional team has to be be led by somebody who is external to them, and that's why sometimes a consultant is needed, because if you have it led by marketing, sales won't listen.
00:30:31.444 -->
00:30:35.245If you have it led by sales, marketing will feel victimized.
00:30:35.245 -->
00:30:42.039If you have it led by a tech or a customer success person, everybody will feel like the authority is not in the room.
00:30:42.039 -->
00:30:43.479So what you do?
00:30:43.479 -->
00:30:51.442You bring an external, you take somebody else from the company that's capable, or you hire them with that purpose and you bring them in and you have a cluster of effective culture.
00:30:51.442 -->
00:30:56.947The key is that the person leading them is an enabler.
00:30:56.947 -->
00:31:01.026Is somebody who's there to just correct the course every once in a while?
00:31:01.026 -->
00:31:10.057Is somebody that's looking at what happens and helping them distinguish between okay, this is a new best practice, or this actually is a great idea, or this idea sucks.
00:31:10.057 -->
00:31:20.528What you have is that over the course of three to six months, the cluster will have created their own sets of practices, their own habits and their own microculture.
00:31:20.528 -->
00:31:33.691Now you have an example there of how to take this cluster and start reproducing it, how sales reproduce, separate it, build it somewhere else in the company.
00:31:33.691 -->
00:31:43.301Eventually you have enough people doing this that this becomes a new reality and you have a new department, even though I don't like the word and that's one way to solve it.
00:31:43.562 -->
00:31:45.708There's no magic bullet.
00:31:45.708 -->
00:31:49.085You will not just build a cluster in three weeks.
00:31:49.085 -->
00:31:55.460You have a new revenue team and you will not just, you know, tell marketers do this and tell people do that and they will magically come together.
00:31:55.460 -->
00:31:56.302Too many rivalries.
00:31:56.302 -->
00:32:09.375You need to create a process and give them the opportunity to develop new ways of working together, to build culture, to get used to each other, to appreciate each other, because that's the issue.
00:32:09.375 -->
00:32:27.303Sometimes marketing doesn't know what it takes to be on the front line getting rejected, taking calls, making calls, and sales doesn't know what it takes to be in marketing trying to guess what the customer wants and having pressure on you because you think you're going to lose your job.
00:32:27.303 -->
00:32:34.208You need to bring them together in a separate context so that they can start appreciating each other and building those best practices together.
00:32:38.017 -->
00:32:38.480I love that.
00:32:38.480 -->
00:32:42.145I've used something like that.
00:32:42.145 -->
00:32:42.716I would call it like.
00:32:42.716 -->
00:32:45.729I've called it like tiger teams, right, I've used something like that.
00:32:45.729 -->
00:32:46.211I would call it like.
00:32:46.211 -->
00:33:07.050I've called it like tiger teams, right, but essentially right a small cross-functional group who is very focused on a mission of testing a new way of doing things and learning from it so that you can you know, the risks are relatively low, so there's a lot of openness to change and trying new things and um.
00:33:07.050 -->
00:33:28.606But I think it's interesting that you've got this like outside, indirectly overseeing it or directly overseeing it, but not in, not directly, in a kind of organizational structure where their focus, like the one thing I would add is like they should be there to help, like when things get off track from what, that that objective is right, they bring them back to.
00:33:28.606 -->
00:33:30.009This is the objective.
00:33:30.089 -->
00:33:41.709It's not a boss, it's somebody guiding them yeah, yeah yeah and it's got to be somebody that who's, who's willing to tell people what they maybe don't want.
00:33:41.709 -->
00:33:44.605That's why an external works so well for that role because they can take all.
00:33:44.576 -->
00:33:45.214They can take it all, and they can also.
00:33:45.214 -->
00:33:45.614They don't want to hear.
00:33:45.614 -->
00:33:48.058That's why an external works so well for that role Because they can take it all and they don't care.
00:33:48.058 -->
00:33:49.764They have no stakes, they know nobody.
00:33:49.764 -->
00:33:53.941They can just tell people hey, this doesn't work, everybody will hate that person.
00:33:53.941 -->
00:33:56.718Okay, but in six months they'll be gone, it doesn't matter.
00:33:56.877 -->
00:34:51.709Yeah, yeah, and you know kind of having and I'm sure we've all everybody on this call has experienced that when you're the new hire and maybe and Michael, we talked about this a lot you know I was really fortunate to be on three go-to-market teams that executed at a really high level and when you see it done a certain way and you know it works a certain way, and then you try to come into a new culture where maybe it's very top-down in the sense that, hey, you just worry about what you need to do and you know you let the executives kind of determine and like the way that played out in my career, you know, going going to a high growth, you know a hardware IT company, um, where the marketing you know the CMO and the marketing director were like hey, listen, as the marketing ops person, we want you attached at the hip with the sales team and we want you out in front supporting them any way that they need.
00:34:52.572 -->
00:35:06.778And then you go to another culture where you know I think we talked about this last time like two weeks in, I set up a weekly meeting with two of our sales sales guys and I immediately got an email that was like why are you setting up meetings with the sales team?
00:35:06.778 -->
00:35:09.947It's like well, this is kind of just how it's done.
00:35:09.947 -->
00:35:13.082I'm the new marketing ops guy.
00:35:13.082 -->
00:35:14.669Don't you want me attached?
00:35:14.689 -->
00:35:15.151to their head.
00:35:15.151 -->
00:35:16.501Red flag number one, right.
00:35:17.256 -->
00:35:18.199Oh, it was a red flag.
00:35:18.199 -->
00:35:21.627That was just the first one.
00:35:21.627 -->
00:35:30.807So terrifying it is, man, because it kind of goes back to like once you see it done a certain way.
00:35:30.807 -->
00:35:34.403And actually let me kind of provide some context.
00:35:34.403 -->
00:35:42.361I went to this company and it was the complete opposite, culture-wise and execution-wise, from the company I was at before.
00:35:42.361 -->
00:35:49.081The interesting part is I stayed at that company the longest I stayed at any company and it made me miserable.
00:35:49.081 -->
00:35:50.862It damn near made me depressed.
00:35:50.862 -->
00:35:57.923But what I didn't notice at the time was I actually needed that context in my career Because I had never truly been in a dysfunctional.
00:35:58.176 -->
00:36:01.661I worked on a huge enterprise project with Microsoft and Kroger.
00:36:01.661 -->
00:36:14.178But it is so easy to work with Microsoft because they are so razor sharp in execution that up to that point in my career, had I dealt with some headwinds trying to push things through?
00:36:14.178 -->
00:36:17.167Yeah, but most of the time we were able to go make those happen.
00:36:17.167 -->
00:36:21.566But this was a culture where it was like oh my God, we are doing everything the wrong way.
00:36:21.566 -->
00:36:26.764We're still trying to run this 2005 playbook and it's 2022, it's 2023.
00:36:26.764 -->
00:36:30.430And we're six months into this go-to-market motion and nothing's working.
00:36:31.515 -->
00:36:50.945And at the time I didn't realize why I needed that context in my career, but what that experience showed me was just this is how things truly break down when there is no organizational alignment, when there is no clear leadership, when you have leadership that on Monday says we're going to do it this way, and then by Friday that plan is totally changed.
00:36:50.945 -->
00:37:07.146And then you see how that matriculates throughout the organization, how it erodes trust across the team and then ultimately it just completely erodes morale, because everybody gets to a point where it's just like nothing I'm doing is working and I have no idea what they want me to execute on.
00:37:07.146 -->
00:37:12.726And a large part of that is because I don't feel like I actually have ownership of what I'm working on.
00:37:12.726 -->
00:37:15.960I'm just being told to basically sit down, shut up and just do what you're told.
00:37:15.960 -->
00:37:22.785Right, and just seeing how that completely eviscerated a culture within 12 months.
00:37:22.785 -->
00:37:25.977And next thing, you know, you see people leaving left and right.
00:37:26.659 -->
00:37:35.867It's like this all could have been prevented had we and granted, now this was a European company versus an American company, so totally operated in a different way.
00:37:35.867 -->
00:37:49.602But you just kind of see, I needed that context to understand why does it need to be done this way versus this way, and I think that's why we feel so convicted about that front.
00:37:49.602 -->
00:37:59.222You hear me talk so much about frontline alignment and frontline execution now, because that was kind of like my big light bulb of like we can build you the best data model ever.
00:37:59.222 -->
00:38:00.425We could do winning by design.
00:38:00.425 -->
00:38:14.057We could do all these different data models, but if you guys don't know how to really act on that, if there's not that ownership, that accountability and that trust built within your culture between marketing, sales and customer success, nothing we do for you is going to work regardless.
00:38:14.577 -->
00:38:18.505It might work for a few months, but then the people in the culture is huge.
00:38:19.628 -->
00:38:20.548Yeah, exactly.
00:38:25.584 -->
00:38:36.138So you brought this up, like when you work with your clients, I think you you told me, garrett, that you have something that you, um, you guys have, I guess, a methodology or framework that you call strike.
00:38:36.138 -->
00:39:02.255I think yeah is um, that is to help streamline I was gonna say marketing teams, but it sounds like to Sebastian's point right Revenue teams to actually execute more seamlessly and better, maybe between two of you, if you can maybe walk us through what is that and what are some typical results.
00:39:09.335 -->
00:39:10.878Yeah, so the way that we think about our frameworks, our methodologies are.
00:39:10.878 -->
00:39:12.761These aren't like rigid frameworks where it's like you need to do it this way.
00:39:12.761 -->
00:39:14.865It's more of a mental model and it's more of a tactical execution framework.
00:39:14.865 -->
00:39:19.261For how do I actually get out in front of these signals, how do I get out in front of these leads?
00:39:19.261 -->
00:39:25.048How you know, to Sebastian's point, how do we follow up with these leads, re-engage stale deals?
00:39:25.048 -->
00:39:26.740Who owns what?
00:39:26.740 -->
00:39:30.105How does marketing get the conversation rolling?
00:39:30.105 -->
00:39:36.689Hey, we've got 10 deals in our pipeline that we've carried for three quarters, that we just cannot get any kind of answer out of.
00:39:36.689 -->
00:39:38.482How do we get those re-engaged?
00:39:38.482 -->
00:39:44.046How does marketing and sales work together to re-engage those prospects and just get a final answer?
00:39:44.046 -->
00:39:48.105Even if it's a no, at least we can get it out of the pipeline and we have a more accurate forecast.
00:39:48.105 -->
00:39:51.965That's one less thing that we're wasting our time trying to execute on.
00:39:51.965 -->
00:39:55.435That's one less thing that we're wasting our time worrying about it.
00:39:55.475 -->
00:39:59.960Really, I think at the end of the day, when you boil it all down, we're really trying to simplify.
00:39:59.960 -->
00:40:09.836What do you need to be doing on a day-to-day basis as a marketing ops person or as a go-to-market manager, and what do you need to be doing on a day-to-day basis as a sales leader or a sales manager?
00:40:09.836 -->
00:40:27.821And then, how do we get you to oscillate and work together to where, again, it's not like there's three separate teams here, and I think this is an area that you guys highlighted and Sebastian and I view it as like I don't really we might say marketing and sales, customer success.
00:40:27.821 -->
00:40:46.448I don't view it as three separate teams, and the goal of strike and the goal of SWOT is to get these teams to act as one team versus thinking well, that is, customer success is full right, because customer success is always thrown in a cubicle, in the corner, with zero resources, and they're asked to basically be an extension of sales.
00:40:46.448 -->
00:40:53.269Yet you go into so many organizations and CS has literally no idea what's going on and what's being prioritized.
00:40:53.855 -->
00:40:54.477And by the way.
00:40:54.978 -->
00:40:57.666We also need you to be customer support, not just customer success.
00:40:57.666 -->
00:41:03.868So, you know, our goal with this is to get teams to work together as one individual team.
00:41:03.868 -->
00:41:06.584We think of it like a football team or a basketball team.
00:41:06.584 -->
00:41:10.046You got offense, defense and special teams, all right.
00:41:10.046 -->
00:41:21.458But when we talk about, you know, hey, the reason the Bengals lost this game you're the coach just doesn't just say, well, it was offense's fault, or it was a defense's fault, or it was, you know, special teams fault.
00:41:21.458 -->
00:41:22.783It's like, hey, we lost this as a team.
00:41:27.175 -->
00:41:30.267We want it as a team, and the teams that excel at a really high level are the ones that understand the people that are executing at the front lines.
00:41:30.267 -->
00:41:42.188I know what my role is, I know what my job is and I know I'm given the ability to execute on that at a high level, without these restraints where I feel like if I go beyond what my scope of work is, am I stepping on somebody's toes?
00:41:42.188 -->
00:41:53.783Am I going to get reprimanded for trying to go a little bit above and beyond, maybe, what my job description is?
00:41:53.783 -->
00:42:01.096And so we really try to boil all of that down into a simplified methodology, for here's how we execute as one team, one motion, one mission, Sebastian.
00:42:01.136 -->
00:42:02.998any additional thoughts on that?
00:42:02.998 -->
00:42:03.598I?
00:42:03.619 -->
00:42:19.406would say that something I've noticed, and one of the reasons why Strike is Gareth's baby, swartz is my baby, and one of the reasons why I created Swartz is because I've noticed something.
00:42:19.406 -->
00:42:25.869It is companies consistently fail a strategy because they all understand strategy as goal setting.
00:42:25.869 -->
00:42:27.778Now, why am I bringing this up?
00:42:27.778 -->
00:42:47.842I am bringing this up because If most companies fail a strategy which means they fail at positioning, which means they fail at understanding their customers it means the sales and marketing teams in 90 or 98% of cases don't have the tools to succeed at what they do.
00:42:47.842 -->
00:42:59.709Because if you don't have a proper positioning in your company, you have a lot of guessing, a lot of chaos and a lot of conflict and a lot of trouble at the management level.
00:42:59.709 -->
00:43:07.834Now, that is not something you can solve if you're a salesperson or a marketer, but you still need to do your job.
00:43:07.834 -->
00:43:10.068You still need to deliver on these KPIs.
00:43:10.068 -->
00:43:10.931You still need to have to close.
00:43:10.931 -->
00:43:13.681You still need to generate leads.
00:43:13.681 -->
00:43:14.785You still need to have to close.
00:43:14.785 -->
00:43:16.567You still need to generate leads.
00:43:16.567 -->
00:43:27.081So fixing also positioning and strategy for companies requires a mindset shift and it is a sales cycle I've been through that takes six to 12 months.
00:43:27.081 -->
00:43:36.085That's a lot of time for a company and for a revenue team.
00:43:40.325 -->
00:43:45.277Now SWOT comes in place for the sales team to basically make up for the fact that the company, that 98% of companies, have no clear positioning and no clear strategy.
00:43:46.365 -->
00:44:11.338So that means that my sales framework, my sales method, is probably the only sales method that will allow you, as a salesperson, to get to know exactly what you need from the prospect or prospects in a multi-stakeholder type of deal, to build a report, but also to influence them and to make them trust you, make them say okay, you guys care about me.
00:44:12.605 -->
00:44:17.816So SWOT is a safeguard when everything at management levels fails.
00:44:17.816 -->
00:44:26.446If even marketing were to fail, you still get a system that works one-to-one and one-to-many in sales context.
00:44:26.446 -->
00:44:41.300Now, if you combine that with Stripe, you have, as a salesperson, you are equipped with beforehand, all the tools you need to have even better chances of closing or pushing forward the deal in front of you.
00:44:41.300 -->
00:44:45.115And that's what these two frameworks do.
00:44:45.115 -->
00:44:59.157They make up for the fact that there is a massive misunderstanding at the top of what it means to be in this market today, and we make up for that at the execution level, at the day-to-day.
00:44:59.157 -->
00:45:04.733You know what to say how to say you know which process to take them through in order to earn their trust.
00:45:04.733 -->
00:45:06.516That's what we do.
00:45:08.980 -->
00:45:09.726Yeah, I mean.
00:45:09.726 -->
00:45:19.513What I'm hearing through both of these is that, yeah, what you're providing is a way for people to really focus on what they, what's controllable where they have agency right.
00:45:20.155 -->
00:45:20.356Yeah.
00:45:20.665 -->
00:45:31.092There may be all this chaos happening within the organization, but I can control what I do today, this next five minutes, next 30 minutes, whatever, and I think that's probably good to recognize.
00:45:31.112 -->
00:45:31.653Can I add no?
00:45:31.673 -->
00:45:32.514matter what the context.
00:45:34.998 -->
00:45:36.220Sure Can I add one thing there, gareth?
00:45:36.220 -->
00:45:49.028You know we we hear so much about the COVID era tactics and everything, but if you think back let's think back to like 2010, we didn't really have marketing ops, we didn't have sales ops, we didn't have go-to-market ops.
00:45:49.028 -->
00:45:49.910We didn't have any of this.
00:45:49.910 -->
00:46:07.026And when I first started out, I was doing Salesforce consulting for banks and credit unions and we were basically just calling it the customer journey, which you know, a lot of people still use that to this day, but it was never.
00:46:07.046 -->
00:46:13.719Over time, over my 12 year, 13 year career Now, we started siloing these specific functions into marketing ops or sales ops or whatever.
00:46:13.719 -->
00:46:29.272And now we have these five different groups, and I think the intention behind all of this was we were trying to simplify what maybe was becoming a little bit more complex, but through that we created the very silos that we seeked to destroy.
00:46:29.272 -->
00:46:33.211We created the very silos ourselves that we were trying to get rid of.
00:46:33.211 -->
00:46:47.309We were trying to create these functions as a means to get people to individually focus on their area of operations, but through that, over time, really all we've done is created these silos where nobody speaks to each other and nobody takes accountability.
00:46:47.309 -->
00:46:57.912Now we're at a point where in a lot of companies maybe not so much as an enterprise, but in smaller companies it's like why you have 75 employees and eight of those employees are rev ops.
00:46:57.912 -->
00:46:59.431That doesn't make sense.
00:46:59.431 -->
00:47:05.011Like we're trying to force these functions to be a part of the business that maybe don't even fit into the business.
00:47:05.405 -->
00:47:09.134So I just wanted to add that as a little bit of a side note.
00:47:09.134 -->
00:47:10.698Yeah, makes sense.
00:47:10.698 -->
00:47:16.377Well, guys, I would love to continue the conversation, but we're going to have to cut it there.
00:47:16.377 -->
00:47:19.913So, first off, thank you guys for the insights.
00:47:19.913 -->
00:47:20.835It's been really interesting.
00:47:20.835 -->
00:47:21.836I wish we could go longer.
00:47:21.836 -->
00:47:25.390Go one at a time.
00:47:25.390 -->
00:47:30.541If people want to connect with you or learn more about either of these things or what you're doing, what's the best way to do it?
00:47:30.842 -->
00:47:37.176Gareth, you first, gareth you first yeah you can find me on LinkedIn Gareth G-A-R-R-A-T-H.
00:47:37.176 -->
00:47:52.672Gareth Robinson or you can check out our website at wwwgorevxcelcom R-E-V-X-C-E-Lcom.
00:47:52.693 -->
00:47:54.756You can find me on LinkedIn, mainly Sebastian DP Hidalgo.
00:47:54.756 -->
00:47:55.737That's my main platform.
00:47:55.737 -->
00:47:56.498I'm also on Twitter.
00:47:56.498 -->
00:47:57.479Don't look me up there.
00:47:57.479 -->
00:48:01.110I'm also on threads, Don't look me up there.
00:48:01.110 -->
00:48:04.358Go to the website as Gareth said, and spell it pretty well LinkedIn is the main platform.
00:48:04.358 -->
00:48:11.329You want to send me a message.
00:48:11.329 -->
00:48:12.740Talk more about SWOT, talk about sales and just get to know each other.
00:48:12.760 -->
00:48:13.325I'm always open to answering.
00:48:13.325 -->
00:48:18.074Terrific, all right, and Gareth, I mean Sebastian, when we we talked before we started.
00:48:18.074 -->
00:48:20.519If you find your way to Dallas, let me know.
00:48:22.187 -->
00:48:23.970I will All right.
00:48:23.970 -->
00:48:24.971Thanks for having us on guys.
00:48:25.011 -->
00:48:27.555Mike, thank you, yeah, thank you.
00:48:27.735 -->
00:48:28.897I appreciate you guys coming on.
00:48:28.897 -->
00:48:30.960I love your insights and what you're talking about.
00:48:30.960 -->
00:48:36.689These are important conversations for everybody, so we appreciate you taking the time Absolutely Well, as always.
00:48:36.729 -->
00:48:42.274Thank you to everyone here and thank you to our listeners and our audience for continuing to support us.
00:48:42.274 -->
00:48:49.721If you have suggestions for topics or guests, or want to be a guest, reach out to Naomi, mike or me and we'd be happy to talk to you about that.
00:48:49.721 -->
00:48:50.842Until next time.
00:48:53.097 -->
00:48:54.024Bye, everybody, yep, see you guys.
00:48:54.024 -->
00:48:54.326Thank you.
