Josh Elman & James Currier on the Arrival of the Next Social Era

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This is Kristin O'Brien, and you're listening
to the NFX podcast.
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For founders of social media and communication
start the last 8 years have been an ice age.
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2002 to 2012 was the golden era, bringing us
companies like Facebook, Twitter, instagram,
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LinkedIn, poshmark, Slack and Zoom, and the
subsequent 8 years outside of Asia, few
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consumer companies emerged, but now that's
changing.
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The pandemic is rewiring our relationship to
technology, and we believe the new wave of
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social startups has arrived.
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In this episode, social media experts James
Currier and Josh Beller give a blueprint for
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the evolution of social, what it takes to build
a breakout product, and the opportunities
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they're seeing for founders to reinvent the
social landscape
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So so Josh, you and I have known each other for
over a decade.
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You've been one of Silicon Valley's top social
media and communications experts for over 20
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years.
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You know, you were in the product management
engineering inside of real network.
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One of the first video communications tools up
in Seattle.
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Right?
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They acquired Philip Rosedale's video codec,
then he went on to build 2nd life.
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Then you were at LinkedIn, at the beginning
there in product and engineering, Facebook,
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product, Twitter product, and then, most
recently at Robinhood, in product.
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And then, of course, you're an investor in
TikTok.
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And in between, of course, you're a general
partner at Greylock, right, for 8 years.
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Investing in social media and communications
companies, including medium, discord, meerkat
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slash house party.
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And so We've been hanging out talking about
viral growth and social media and social
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communications forever.
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And right now is a really interesting time.
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The recent growth and remote working tools and
digital communications, the takeover of our
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world by social media companies that you've
been part of building, obviously.
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Thought it'd be a great time to to dig in to
get your perspective on all things social
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communications.
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What's the general arc of the timeline of
social media and communication tool.
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Take us back to the beginning and bring us to
the present.
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And maybe if you could drop in some of the
frameworks you use to understand where things
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are today, it would be super helpful here.
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Just hearing you talk about this stuff always a
pleasure.
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Thanks, James.
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So much for having me.
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I always love talking to you, and we've shared
a lot of this history of building all these
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things together.
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You know, I think it really comes back to the
early internet that sort of late nineties vibe
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where, you know, in general, it was first about
companies setting up web James and setting up
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presences and sort of the early internet was a
business internet.
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And then people realized they could set things
up for themselves.
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I was actually interning at a company that was
called homestead.
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And we were starting to talk about what it was
like to build a web page on the internet that
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represented you.
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And it was like, don't just build a home page.
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Build a homestead.
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And this idea that people could have a presence
online sort of made their identity now twofold.
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It wasn't just the people that knew them in
their community.
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But it was anybody on the internet could find
out who you were, what you were thinking about.
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This then turned into blogging where a very
small group of people figured out how to write
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every day, and they would write these
incredible pieces.
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And we would all start to read them, and these
few writers became somewhat famous in the small
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nerdy internet world.
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And it was exciting to kind of think about what
what that meant and how you could start to get
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to know somebody just through an online
presence without ever having met them in the
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real world.
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AOL had chat rooms where a lot of people were
hanging out.
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And that was sort of the early genesis of what
became the city of, like, an internet presence
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related to your, to your real world presence
the beginning, they were mostly different.
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Who you were in the AOL chat room might not be
the same thing as who you were online.
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Go through the internet, bust, blogging and
everything are still growing.
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AOL's already starting to fade, and a bunch of
people said, wait a sec.
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What if the internet presence and and the real
world presence are the same.
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They can be, 1, you can actually put your real
self online.
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If you remember back then, like, a resume was
something you only did when you were looking
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for a job.
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And Reed Hoffman had the idea that it was like,
what if your resume is a living, breathing
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thing that represents you online that people
can find you all the time?
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So it's not like you're searching for a job to
still have your resume online, and that was
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sort of the genesis of LinkedIn, and then it
became that and your professional network.
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And, you know, monster, which was the largest
job site at the time only had resumes of people
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who were looking for James.
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And all of a sudden, LinkedIn had the online,
professional profile, every single person in
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the world, you know, now who's working or not
everybody, but almost, what was this idea?
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Friendster came out and said, hey, if you wanna
start dating somebody instead of the awkward
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trying to find people through your friends or
trying to ask around because you're single.
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What if you just knew who you're your friends'
friends were and you could just browse them and
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you say, hey, James, I think you have a friend
who seems kinda neat.
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Maybe you could introduce me to her.
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These is the burden for the person in the
middle.
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And so all of a sudden, not just do we have
these online profiles that represent our real
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identity, but we actually now have we know who
knows who and who's connected to who, and we
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can start using those to get to people and
realize our reach is much bigger than just us
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personally.
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And these kind of two things, the real identity
online the ability to to talk, which, like, the
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small group of bloggers sort of showed us was
possible, and this idea of our friend networks
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social graph as it eventually got to be called
just became these foundational things that have
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now spawned or, you know, a $1,000,000,000,000
worth of companies and billions of people now
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using new products every day.
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So that was sort of the genesis that got us
into that, like, 2003, 4 era.
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I joined LinkedIn, right, the beginning of
2004, and it was, like, fifteen Pete.
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And and, you know, I remember we were like,
someday we'll get to a million users on
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LinkedIn.
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You know, now it's at 100100 of 1,000,000, but
it was this idea that, like, this actually
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could work.
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I even dropped out a business school to to join
LinkedIn my professor was like, social
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networking will never make money.
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My friends came and did a a a class project
since I was at LinkedIn.
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They got a C minus C plus or something on the
project because he just didn't ever believe it.
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And and so even in those early days, it was
still a big question of, like so we have people
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online, they're real identities.
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So what?
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Why does that matter?
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And that's where the real change then, you
know, especially as Facebook came out and said,
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hey.
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We're gonna map people's real identities gonna
do this in these closed communities like
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colleges.
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People will then start to share updates.
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Status was a big thing, and this came again
from instant messaging.
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Should've been very private in the past, where
you would only kind of you would chat with your
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friends in a very private way.
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And all of a sudden, you could sort of chat in
a slightly more public way on Facebook.
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There's this feature that people have forgotten
now called writing on walls that was actually
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one of the most important early social
communication features.
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I could go to your profile, James, and say,
hey, man.
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Happy birthday.
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Or, hey.
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What's up?
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Or, hey.
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I think I saw you walking across the quad, and
other people could see it and start to comment
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on it as Beller.
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And that collectively is what made our sort of
communication Pete start to change.
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And so Facebook realized this and said, wait a
sec.
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Everyone can talk to each other.
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People are updating their status with real time
updates almost of what they're doing.
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Pete are updating pictures.
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They're updating their relationship status.
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They turn that into the news feed.
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And then I really think that was the invention
that sort of invented the next wave of the
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social internet was the idea of a newsfeed, a
place that we could post information and
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immediately at one glance, see what everybody
else is up to.
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And kind of everything we've really built in
social since then has been based off of that
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core idea that you could post something around
your identity and people kind of consume it in
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this sort of feed like form.
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And that really set us for the next 15 years.
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Twitter took all the bloggers who were writing
long form posts and gave him a place to do very
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short post in between that became an incredible
Beller.
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And people used to call it micro blogging, but
that was because it was the short form of
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blogging, and then everybody would go back to
their longer form blogging and say, well, on
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Twitter, we were all discussing this in short
form.
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Now I'm gonna write a long piece on it.
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And so it became sort of the in between place
where all the conversation happened and that
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became the more important place because it's
where all the conversation happened.
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For that community of bloggers, which then
became the community of media professionals,
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celebrities, people who just like to talk, and
that's what really helped Twitter kind of still
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become this place where important conversation
happens for the whole world.
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And at the same time, Facebook then just got
everybody in the world building their profile,
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sharing things, etcetera.
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That takes us kind of through the end of the
the 2000s, 2008, 910.
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And all of a sudden, our phones come out.
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Now all of a sudden, people are like, wait a
sec.
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This posting, man, I still have to go to a
website on a desktop computer to to make
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updates.
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What if I could just do it from my phone?
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And, you know, we also had cameras on our
phone.
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So all of a sudden, the transformation goes
from simple post you make when you're on a web
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browser, maybe a few times a day to
conversations you can have all the time.
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Twitter started as a little SMS service, but it
became really popular once everybody was doing
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on their phones.
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Instagram came out and said, Hey.
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Your phone pictures kinda suck.
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Let's make them look a little bit better.
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All of a sudden, you have this lens into the
world because of what everybody's sharing on
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their phones.
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And between that, and then Facebook finally
figuring out mobile, You have this transition
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from, really, 2010 to, like, 2014 where the
entire world moves on to mobile social
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networks.
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Was a company called Path that got started in
the meantime that was trying to build it to be
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the 1st mobile social network that pioneered a
lot of things we know, like reactions and other
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stuff.
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You have Snapchat that said, hey.
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We're all sharing photos.
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What if they just disappear?
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And as every high schooler was getting their
very first phones, the idea of content that
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disappeared that wasn't permanently logged was
so attractive to them just because it freed
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them up to change their identity and and change
things around it.
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Facebook felt so permanent and Instagram felt
so permanent that Snapchat took off in that
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generation.
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We had this this massive revolution, and at the
same time, obviously, mobile messaging became
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so inordinately popular.
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You have WhatsApp.
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You just have regular SMS and I message.
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And all of a sudden, our ways to communicate
now have gone so much faster than emails and
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phone calls and all the things of the past.
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And really, I think we've been living this
over, you know, since that's early days.
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It kinda I call that, like, 2010 to 2014 was
sort of this heyday where we're all getting on
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Snapchat and Instagram was becoming a thing and
Facebook mobile was really finding its way.
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And then by the end period, they all started
making money too.
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Facebook mobile really became a a a very large
advertising center of the company.
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They figured out how to do ads in the news feed
that weren't abysmal.
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Cause, remember, this whole lens of social
media always had a, will it ever make money
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question?
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And so by that, point, now we get to sort of
this era where these companies are big.
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They're making a lot of money.
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Things are really working.
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Snapchat's on its way.
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Twitter's on its way.
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That sort of takes us up to, like, 2014, 2015,
which I think as of 2020, we're still kind of
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in a similar state of the world where Snapchat,
Instagram, Twitter, obviously Facebook, things
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like WhatsApp, imessage in in the Western
world, are they dominant media forms.
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And then if you go to Asia, you can add Flint,
cacao, and then obviously we chat.
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Right.
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And it's amazing that the last 6 years hasn't
seen that much change.
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Right?
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I mean, there was so much change for, for 12
years, and then there's been less change.
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How do you read that of our core behaviors
evolve?
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Because of these tools?
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Are are the needs being fulfilled?
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The network effects just too great?
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How do you, how do you see the opportunity for
for for new products, coming in.
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So I think a couple of things happened.
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One is through this whole period, I mean, I
went all the way back to the era of, like,
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logging and home pages to to now We've just
been adding people to these networks.
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You know, it started as, you know, there were
probably hundreds of bloggers in the in the
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late nineties.
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To billions of people posting things on social
media in the past hour.
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And so as part of this expansion, we kept
expanding and getting new people on the forms,
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00:11:22,449 --> 00:11:26,449
and there were just so many new opportunities
to fill that even a lot of the old ones didn't
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really die.
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00:11:26,929 --> 00:11:29,089
I mean, myspace got eclipsed by Facebook.
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That was ver very early on.
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00:11:30,904 --> 00:11:35,085
Other things kind of never really got going,
but, you know, they just kept layering on.
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00:11:35,144 --> 00:11:39,065
Snapchat filled some needs that Facebook didn't
Instagram filled needs that Facebook didn't,
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you know, Twitter was able to coexist, and you
start to get to the thick where it's hard to
227
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find and fill new needs as all these platforms
got big and Beller.
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00:11:47,750 --> 00:11:53,134
And, you know, there's 8 or 12 apps I have on
my phone that fill so many of my needs that you
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either have to now replace 1 or truly find
something different that I will probably drop 1
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for.
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00:11:59,750 --> 00:12:02,389
And that gets much harder, and we do have
network effects.
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When you post to Instagram, it's hard to get
you to post somewhere Beller.
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When you post a video to Facebook and your
family comments on it or your friends do, or
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people just call you and say, I love the video
you posted on Facebook.
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Why would you post that somewhere else?
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Even YouTube, which people think of as this
massive platform, and it certainly is.
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It's much more of a media platform than it ever
has really become a social platform because
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people don't just post content there for
reactions.
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They might post it for storage, but they need
to share it elsewhere where their networks
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live.
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00:12:29,794 --> 00:12:33,080
And so you you kind of have had this
interesting thing where our Pete works are so
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big and so dense, and our audience and where we
wanna get feedback from is so fixed already
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00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,524
that it's hard to imagine somewhere new.
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00:12:40,524 --> 00:12:44,524
Now there have been a few things, you know,
discord and TikTok in particular that have
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grown substantially over the past 5 years, but
those are late additions to this social media
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00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,980
stack, I think, rather than signs of things to
come.
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00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,759
And, you know, for the founders out there that,
you know, all the NFX content is really for
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early stage founders and know, a lot of people
still come to us and say, look, I've got the
249
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social idea.
250
00:13:02,514 --> 00:13:05,154
They're excited about it, and they're like,
this is why it's different and whatnot.
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And let's talk to them for a second.
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I mean, because While we have these big hits
like Facebook and LinkedIn and and Zoom, we've
253
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literally had thousands of companies that
didn't hit it big in the social space, because
254
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know, social products are exciting.
255
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They're fun.
256
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You wanna build them.
257
00:13:19,054 --> 00:13:23,480
Boy, wouldn't it be great to have a big network
effect, business that you could run and have
258
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,720
fun connecting Pete, you know, it's sort of a
dream, right?
259
00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,539
But so few of the companies that got started,
even the ones that got 10, 40, 100,000,000
260
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users never became big.
261
00:13:32,575 --> 00:13:33,535
They didn't go anywhere.
262
00:13:33,535 --> 00:13:38,266
When you were in venture capital, did you look
at a 100 or a 1000 of these media things Pete?
263
00:13:38,415 --> 00:13:41,339
Give us a sense of the scale of how many people
are still trying it.
264
00:13:41,339 --> 00:13:45,339
And then I'd love to talk about what you think,
you know, early stage founders today should be
265
00:13:45,339 --> 00:13:49,325
looking for in this space given that a lot of
the the network effects are preventing new
266
00:13:49,325 --> 00:13:51,184
players from coming in against the incumbents.
267
00:13:51,325 --> 00:13:57,100
No, I probably looked at 6 or 700 new companies
in sort of a consumer and media world.
268
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:03,100
Every year when I was in venture capital from,
you know, 2012 through, 2017 where my, you
269
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:08,904
know, full years is a full time Pete and There
were so many people doing interesting things,
270
00:14:08,904 --> 00:14:13,705
but a lot of them felt derivative or a little
gap or sort of not trying to play to new
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trends.
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00:14:14,220 --> 00:14:17,600
So what I was really always looking for was
sort of 3 things.
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One is, is somebody writing a new trend that I
think if they get it right can actually own a
274
00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:28,674
new habit formation in the future that that
starts small but can snowball very large to
275
00:14:28,674 --> 00:14:32,410
become a new center, of gravity for that new
habit or behavior.
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And and it really needs to be something new.
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00:14:34,170 --> 00:14:38,934
It's like I have a better way to share photos
just wasn't nearly as interesting as I think
278
00:14:38,934 --> 00:14:42,934
people are actually gonna start recording a lot
more videos, and I think we have a way to do it
279
00:14:42,934 --> 00:14:47,370
that we might become the hub of short form
videos, which was what actually led me to to
280
00:14:47,370 --> 00:14:49,870
invest in musically when it was starting to
work in 2015.
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00:14:50,169 --> 00:14:54,250
But looking for a new Habit or trend, and, you
know, I think right now in the world, for the
282
00:14:54,250 --> 00:14:55,965
first time in sort of 4 years.
283
00:14:55,965 --> 00:14:57,085
I've been thinking about this.
284
00:14:57,085 --> 00:15:01,725
The remote work, remote connection, staying at
home, being just as happy to get on a video
285
00:15:01,725 --> 00:15:06,480
call with friends, might be enough set of new
habits that new things can form that couldn't
286
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:07,120
have before.
287
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:08,639
So new habits is 1.
288
00:15:08,639 --> 00:15:13,274
The second is you think about stickiness and
sort of what what that really means is, like,
289
00:15:13,274 --> 00:15:17,754
is this a habit that becomes central to
somebody's life that they wanna do it often and
290
00:15:17,754 --> 00:15:18,794
be top of mind for it?
291
00:15:18,794 --> 00:15:22,059
And so if you think about it, like, if I'm
bored right now, what do you do?
292
00:15:22,059 --> 00:15:22,940
You might go to Facebook.
293
00:15:22,940 --> 00:15:24,059
You might go to other things.
294
00:15:24,059 --> 00:15:27,740
But being bored is, you know, you can always
try to be something else to help people in
295
00:15:27,740 --> 00:15:28,059
their board.
296
00:15:28,059 --> 00:15:32,055
We have to be really, really good at We see
Quibi just launching trying to say, hey.
297
00:15:32,055 --> 00:15:33,815
We're better content than everything else.
298
00:15:33,815 --> 00:15:37,539
Use us, and it really depends on on how good
the content is there.
299
00:15:37,539 --> 00:15:40,820
They'll be able to fulfill being bored and
wanting entertainment better than anything
300
00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:41,220
else.
301
00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:45,379
So I look for, like, like, I wanna get out
Morgan, or I wanna connect better with my
302
00:15:45,379 --> 00:15:48,554
friends where I could find more meaningful time
with my friends?
303
00:15:48,554 --> 00:15:52,794
Like, what are some of these needs that you can
actually become central and solve in people's
304
00:15:52,794 --> 00:15:54,519
lives don't today.
305
00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,279
And when I'm looking at a company, usually
Morgan little bit of traction where there's a
306
00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,004
small group of people who you're completely
solving that for already, who swear by your
307
00:16:03,004 --> 00:16:07,485
product who say, every day, I check into this
product because it does this thing for me.
308
00:16:07,725 --> 00:16:11,585
And when I look for traction, I don't care
about the big numbers per se.
309
00:16:11,710 --> 00:16:16,669
I care about the death of the numbers for the
people who've you've already converted to your
310
00:16:16,669 --> 00:16:17,070
product.
311
00:16:17,070 --> 00:16:21,634
Because if you have that, then you have a
chance to take that deep meaningful connection
312
00:16:21,634 --> 00:16:23,714
with some people and expand that to a lot more.
313
00:16:23,714 --> 00:16:27,370
And then the third thing I do look for is a
growth hook is it's not that you've already
314
00:16:27,370 --> 00:16:29,610
figured out how to grow or exploit that, but,
hey.
315
00:16:29,610 --> 00:16:33,610
If this small group of people are using it,
here's why they want more people to join them,
316
00:16:33,610 --> 00:16:38,044
and here's how this will span, and this will
grow, and this will rise above the noise,
317
00:16:38,044 --> 00:16:42,365
because any company that you wanna grow from
something small to be to very big needs enough
318
00:16:42,365 --> 00:16:44,250
reasons why it'll grow above the noise.
319
00:16:44,409 --> 00:16:49,049
Discord was one of the the rare examples that I
found in my in my venture career that sort of
320
00:16:49,049 --> 00:16:50,330
hit on all three of these.
321
00:16:50,330 --> 00:16:55,455
It was riding the trend of gaming where people
were starting play a lot more games to with
322
00:16:55,455 --> 00:16:58,414
each other, and the tools to connect over
gaming were pretty terrible.
323
00:16:58,414 --> 00:16:59,955
You had to share IP addresses.
324
00:17:00,095 --> 00:17:04,119
People could blast the IP and and sort of, you
know, ruin the game for everybody.
325
00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,519
If you found out some of these IP address they
were using for their Skype group chat or their
326
00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:11,984
mumble server, gaming was becoming much more of
a core behavior.
327
00:17:11,984 --> 00:17:15,585
We've obviously not seen that with Fortnite and
everything else, but even in 2015, so it's
328
00:17:15,585 --> 00:17:17,130
already becoming more mainstream.
329
00:17:17,269 --> 00:17:21,349
And the third was it was really hard to get
into those other gaming tools to to share and
330
00:17:21,349 --> 00:17:21,589
chat.
331
00:17:21,589 --> 00:17:24,954
Discord did it in the web browser record to
send you a Flint, and we were voice chatting
332
00:17:24,954 --> 00:17:27,195
within about a minute, and it was pretty
amazing.
333
00:17:27,195 --> 00:17:31,970
And it, back then, it was a total experience to
have, like, ten people in a voice chat over
334
00:17:31,970 --> 00:17:35,490
just the text that was shared, over a Flint
star that was shared, like, over SMS.
335
00:17:35,490 --> 00:17:40,734
And so so we found that they had a couple
100,000 daily users but they weren't just daily
336
00:17:40,734 --> 00:17:41,134
users.
337
00:17:41,134 --> 00:17:43,535
They were, like, every day, hours a day.
338
00:17:43,535 --> 00:17:48,750
10% of the people were have the app open over
10 hours per day And so this was a really,
339
00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:50,041
really committed group of Pete.
340
00:17:50,269 --> 00:17:51,869
And then they had a really good growth hook.
341
00:17:51,869 --> 00:17:54,910
Like, the gaming ecosystem was blowing up
Twitch streamers.
342
00:17:54,910 --> 00:17:58,695
We're talking about using Discord once you get
one person, they would share it with all their
343
00:17:58,695 --> 00:17:59,815
friends who they gained with.
344
00:17:59,815 --> 00:18:05,049
And all of a sudden, like, it just kept growing
virally and through the use of of Twitch and,
345
00:18:05,049 --> 00:18:08,490
and other gaming influencers, you know, and
that really helped Discord become such a
346
00:18:08,490 --> 00:18:09,450
meaningful company.
347
00:18:09,450 --> 00:18:13,289
But I kind of bet on it because of those 3
things, but it was rare to find all three of
348
00:18:13,289 --> 00:18:14,045
those in one product.
349
00:18:14,125 --> 00:18:14,365
Sure.
350
00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,525
And this court had been tried a couple James
before.
351
00:18:16,525 --> 00:18:21,085
I mean, Mike Cassidy had tried X Fire earlier,
like 12 years earlier or something.
352
00:18:21,085 --> 00:18:21,565
That's right.
353
00:18:21,565 --> 00:18:21,805
Yeah.
354
00:18:21,805 --> 00:18:25,460
I mean, Look, there's very few ideas that have
never been tried before.
355
00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:30,980
It's all about getting the right product at the
right time with the right trend in wave and the
356
00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:36,154
right way for the the viral growth to actually
flow through current channels for something to
357
00:18:36,154 --> 00:18:40,634
really take off versus being stuck when on X
Fire, it was such a good product when it came
358
00:18:40,634 --> 00:18:40,955
out.
359
00:18:40,955 --> 00:18:46,859
The gaming was just niche year enough and just
more isolated and people didn't sort of proudly
360
00:18:46,859 --> 00:18:49,359
talk about themselves as a gamer back then.
361
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,704
And so it always ended up feeling much niche
here than it could have.
362
00:18:53,704 --> 00:18:54,204
Yeah.
363
00:18:54,265 --> 00:18:54,505
Yeah.
364
00:18:54,505 --> 00:18:55,244
That's right.
365
00:18:55,464 --> 00:18:59,650
And, you know, I remember in 2015, you and our
sitting at, what I think was my first and last
366
00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:00,529
NFL Football James.
367
00:19:00,529 --> 00:19:04,289
And, you said, Hey, have you noticed that there
haven't been any big social networks since
368
00:19:04,289 --> 00:19:05,349
Snapchat in 2011?
369
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:08,945
And it's been 4 years since anything major
happened in social.
370
00:19:08,945 --> 00:19:12,384
It might be over, and you didn't mean it was
over, but you're kind of saying, Hey, look,
371
00:19:12,384 --> 00:19:13,424
we're in a, we're in a new phase.
372
00:19:13,424 --> 00:19:17,079
And so what you're saying is going forward,
what's going to be going forward is we need to
373
00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:21,960
find new habits, stickiness, and growth hooks,
in order to really make an impact on the
374
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:23,625
incumbents the way it is today.
375
00:19:23,625 --> 00:19:25,784
And, and, and it's, there's really been the
shift.
376
00:19:25,784 --> 00:19:29,884
And so when you think about what's going
forward for, for this area, you'd mentioned
377
00:19:29,944 --> 00:19:30,789
works stuff.
378
00:19:30,789 --> 00:19:34,630
Maybe this has changed to remote work, you
know, the shelter in play stuff, the various
379
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:39,025
changing social behaviors we're going to have
to have as a result of COVID, what do you see
380
00:19:39,025 --> 00:19:39,744
going forward?
381
00:19:39,744 --> 00:19:41,285
I mean, we've already got zoomed.
382
00:19:41,664 --> 00:19:46,545
Now we've got, some new tools that are trying
to trying to lock down on work like tandem and
383
00:19:46,545 --> 00:19:47,170
other things.
384
00:19:47,330 --> 00:19:51,009
Where do you see the opportunity for early
stage founders going forward?
385
00:19:51,009 --> 00:19:55,545
Well, so I think what's really special about
what's happening right now is that we're
386
00:19:55,545 --> 00:19:59,705
normalizing a lot of behaviors that have sort
of been out there for a while.
387
00:19:59,705 --> 00:20:03,144
Like, Zoom's been around for a while, and it's
been an exceptional workplace video
388
00:20:03,144 --> 00:20:04,285
conferencing product.
389
00:20:04,450 --> 00:20:09,650
But it always felt second rate to get on a zoom
versus trying to have a meeting in person.
390
00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:13,764
It always felt like if somebody was working
from home, they were sort of doing the
391
00:20:13,764 --> 00:20:18,984
secondary option and having to zoom them into
the meeting was a slight burden.
392
00:20:19,044 --> 00:20:22,648
Even if you were a company with multiple
offices and you were doing video calls Morgan,
393
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:27,190
and there was the person dialing in on the the
TV in the meeting room, it always felt like it
394
00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:29,029
wasn't quite as good as being in person.
395
00:20:29,029 --> 00:20:34,894
And what I think the shelter in place in in
these, like, surreal times are doing is making
396
00:20:34,894 --> 00:20:35,774
us go, wait a sec.
397
00:20:35,774 --> 00:20:36,894
What if this is the default?
398
00:20:36,894 --> 00:20:41,730
How do we then learn new norms and operate and
make sure that this is as effective possible.
399
00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:45,250
I think people are gonna learn to be a lot
better writers, so they'll get things written
400
00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:47,590
down that will make the communication a lot
more effective.
401
00:20:47,650 --> 00:20:48,369
Writing's hard.
402
00:20:48,369 --> 00:20:49,865
Writing well is really hard.
403
00:20:49,865 --> 00:20:52,505
But I think it's worth spending the time in
order to do it.
404
00:20:52,505 --> 00:20:56,184
And then the video calls and the communication
we have, we learn how to make that higher
405
00:20:56,184 --> 00:21:00,089
fidelity, and and we replace not being in
person because that's all we can do right now.
406
00:21:00,089 --> 00:21:04,490
And and then I think by normalizing this, the
next time it's like, oh, you can't meet in
407
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:04,730
person.
408
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:04,970
Hey.
409
00:21:04,970 --> 00:21:09,995
Let's just do a Zoom becomes an affirmative act
and something that we do, and we almost prefer
410
00:21:09,995 --> 00:21:14,875
to do to save everybody the hassle of commuting
or moving around, and we only do that when it's
411
00:21:14,875 --> 00:21:15,519
really special.
412
00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:19,599
Now if we're gonna do that, the number of ways
we need to connect, share content, share
413
00:21:19,599 --> 00:21:20,099
information.
414
00:21:20,159 --> 00:21:24,845
Like, it's gonna be transformative, and there's
so many different pieces of what we used to get
415
00:21:24,845 --> 00:21:30,044
in person, whether it was the hallway chat
after a meeting or the, you know, greetings or,
416
00:21:30,044 --> 00:21:35,059
you know, sharing food or giving gifts All of
these things that we just do naturally in
417
00:21:35,059 --> 00:21:38,420
person, we have to figure out how to replicate
and bring to our digital tools.
418
00:21:38,420 --> 00:21:42,634
I think people will be able to carve out lots
slices of these to become, you know, important
419
00:21:42,695 --> 00:21:44,295
parts of people's working life.
420
00:21:44,295 --> 00:21:47,734
And then I think on the social side, we're
learning exactly the same thing.
421
00:21:47,734 --> 00:21:48,210
Hey.
422
00:21:48,289 --> 00:21:53,089
Normally, we would wanna go out to a concert,
and that would be, like, our fun event that we
423
00:21:53,089 --> 00:21:53,409
might do.
424
00:21:53,409 --> 00:21:54,690
You know, some people do that every week.
425
00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:56,069
Some people do that monthly.
426
00:21:56,130 --> 00:21:57,730
And right now, we can't do any of it.
427
00:21:57,730 --> 00:21:59,785
Is is, you know, for across humanity.
428
00:22:00,005 --> 00:22:04,725
So doing the live stream concert is actually
pretty good, but it's still not as good as
429
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:07,079
seeing some other people in the crowd sharing
it.
430
00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:08,759
Maybe sometimes it's Flint intimate gathering.
431
00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:10,200
Maybe sometimes it's a math 1.
432
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,015
I think there's so much more to invent for the
tools that make that experience feel much
433
00:22:14,015 --> 00:22:17,774
better even than it does today, but I've
personally been amazed going to some watching
434
00:22:17,774 --> 00:22:21,190
some of the live streams, some of these artists
from their James.
435
00:22:21,429 --> 00:22:22,549
It's really brought me there.
436
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:26,789
This Hamilton thing that was done on John
Krasinski's feel good news was was just
437
00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:28,629
amazing, and I just watched that yesterday.
438
00:22:28,629 --> 00:22:33,164
Like, five James, and it kind of shows you the
intimacy that can happen over digital if we
439
00:22:33,164 --> 00:22:34,384
start creating those experiences.
440
00:22:34,525 --> 00:22:38,900
And I personally did poker night with some
friends on Friday night, and I normally would
441
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:42,660
never have jumped in the car to go Pete people
in San Francisco and Oakland, and one person
442
00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:46,555
even joined from Hawaii where he lives, And I
never would have gone out to poker night
443
00:22:46,555 --> 00:22:47,755
because it was a Friday night.
444
00:22:47,755 --> 00:22:49,914
It was late, and I probably would have been
tired.
445
00:22:49,914 --> 00:22:53,134
We started at, like, 8:30, and we're still
going to 12:30.
446
00:22:53,275 --> 00:22:54,769
And I had so much fun.
447
00:22:54,769 --> 00:22:59,650
We had zoom on, a mediocre poker app on the
phone, but it was really about the people.
448
00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:01,650
And I think now that we start to go, hey.
449
00:23:01,650 --> 00:23:05,924
That was actually more fun than I thought, It's
gonna become normal, and we can build great
450
00:23:05,924 --> 00:23:08,164
products to help people do this more
effectively.
451
00:23:08,164 --> 00:23:12,940
And I think there's gonna be a huge world of
opportunity to build the places and spaces that
452
00:23:12,940 --> 00:23:16,299
we go on evenings and other times in order to
do this.
453
00:23:16,299 --> 00:23:20,304
Is this what you're talking about when you you
say that your media is becoming social Is this
454
00:23:20,304 --> 00:23:21,904
an idea that you'd you'd written about?
455
00:23:21,904 --> 00:23:22,065
Yeah.
456
00:23:22,065 --> 00:23:28,420
What I haven't think about is is social media
has sort of drifted away from truly being
457
00:23:28,420 --> 00:23:28,920
social.
458
00:23:29,059 --> 00:23:32,580
With social media, we had gotten to a point
where it actually, I think, is becoming more
459
00:23:32,580 --> 00:23:37,765
media where what James Currier shares on his
Facebook, certainly on his Twitter or his
460
00:23:37,765 --> 00:23:43,684
LinkedIn is James Currier, the media channel,
not James Currier, the human that I love
461
00:23:43,684 --> 00:23:47,960
interacting with, and and, you know, being with
and going back and forth with, you know,
462
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,960
podcasts, I think are much closer to that.
463
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,965
But being social is really the art of being
together conversing, engaging, sharing
464
00:23:54,965 --> 00:23:58,904
experiences, sharing moments, these emotional
connections that happen.
465
00:23:59,045 --> 00:24:03,879
And so I worry that Facebook, Instagram, I
mean, with with what's happening in the time of
466
00:24:03,879 --> 00:24:05,879
COVID, like, Instagram's pretty boring.
467
00:24:05,879 --> 00:24:08,759
People aren't going out and doing all these
cool things that they're showing off.
468
00:24:08,759 --> 00:24:09,934
They're living their lives.
469
00:24:10,095 --> 00:24:13,715
And creating a media channel about yourself
with living your lives is less interesting.
470
00:24:13,855 --> 00:24:19,579
Instagram live, discord, phone calls, poker
nights, those are real social experiences that
471
00:24:19,579 --> 00:24:21,279
bring back that feeling of connection.
472
00:24:21,419 --> 00:24:24,319
Those feel much, much more powerful these days.
473
00:24:24,325 --> 00:24:29,625
And so that's kind of what I mean is, like, we
might be moving away from thinking that social
474
00:24:29,845 --> 00:24:33,605
networks are about social media and that the
best social networks are the ones that bring us
475
00:24:33,605 --> 00:24:33,980
together.
476
00:24:33,980 --> 00:24:39,099
Know, when you're talking to somebody, you have
so much more adrenaline and endorphins and and
477
00:24:39,099 --> 00:24:42,944
connections between you two, even if it's just
a phone call, Beller if it's a video call and
478
00:24:42,944 --> 00:24:47,105
you're making eye contact, still highest
bandwidth in person, but that's so much more
479
00:24:47,105 --> 00:24:48,545
powerful than cool.
480
00:24:48,545 --> 00:24:50,224
I saw your photo and I double tapped.
481
00:24:50,224 --> 00:24:50,680
Right.
482
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,340
Right.
483
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,920
And you've you've had this recent piece in
medium where you're talking about the, the move
484
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:55,820
toward experiences.
485
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:56,680
This is what you mean.
486
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,460
These experiences together about poker, these
experiences together have seen the eyes,
487
00:25:00,565 --> 00:25:03,144
connecting as as real human beings, these
experiences.
488
00:25:03,285 --> 00:25:06,724
As opposed to the Instagram experiences, like,
look, jump jumping into this, you know,
489
00:25:06,724 --> 00:25:08,339
waterfall in Hawaii sort of thing.
490
00:25:08,419 --> 00:25:08,579
Yeah.
491
00:25:08,579 --> 00:25:08,980
That's right.
492
00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:12,500
Now I'll put a little plugin for TikTok, which
is I think is somewhere in the middle.
493
00:25:12,819 --> 00:25:17,865
One of the things I found really profound with
TikTok is it's no longer just about snapping
494
00:25:17,865 --> 00:25:21,545
something that you're doing and sharing it, but
it's actually about the art of creating.
495
00:25:21,545 --> 00:25:26,750
When we first invested in 2015, like, one of my
theories was that We had sort of with Instagram
496
00:25:26,750 --> 00:25:32,269
and Snapchat, we had made capturing a moment so
effortless and so fast that you could sort of
497
00:25:32,269 --> 00:25:35,024
get anything you wanted and just share it out
there.
498
00:25:35,024 --> 00:25:39,184
And it might actually take longer for somebody
to consume it than it took for you to make it.
499
00:25:39,184 --> 00:25:43,359
And and so we were kind of tipping the balance
where we're putting the burden on consumers as
500
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,839
opposed to, the creators to make something that
that's valuable for the people they care about.
501
00:25:47,839 --> 00:25:52,855
With TikTok, we flipped that again, which is to
actually make a lip sync to make a good dance
502
00:25:52,855 --> 00:25:56,154
video, to make a funny humorous piece of
content.
503
00:25:56,214 --> 00:26:01,230
Like, people actually spend hours learning
steps and going to make them, and we turn the
504
00:26:01,230 --> 00:26:03,329
world back into creators with our phones.
505
00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:08,644
And and that's the other part of sort of social
media that I do like, which is It's not media
506
00:26:08,644 --> 00:26:12,724
that we're just capturing to show off what
we're doing, but it's media that we're creating
507
00:26:12,724 --> 00:26:16,670
with our heart and wanting to share and wanting
to get feedback on.
508
00:26:16,670 --> 00:26:21,869
You know, I've long, I've long dream that the
best social network out there could be one that
509
00:26:21,869 --> 00:26:23,950
shows how long you spent making a post.
510
00:26:23,950 --> 00:26:28,065
Or if, like, you go on a trip, and you make a
collage, it says, hey, Josh.
511
00:26:28,065 --> 00:26:33,424
James just spent, you know, 3 days, you know,
or, like, 6 hours over 3 days curating these
512
00:26:33,424 --> 00:26:33,924
pictures.
513
00:26:34,140 --> 00:26:37,180
To share his album from this amazing trip he
did.
514
00:26:37,180 --> 00:26:38,299
Would you like to look at it?
515
00:26:38,299 --> 00:26:41,580
And if it said that you would put that much
time in, I would always look at it.
516
00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:44,095
Whereas, if I just see you slam up a 100
pictures.
517
00:26:44,095 --> 00:26:45,055
I'm like, thanks.
518
00:26:45,055 --> 00:26:46,255
I hope you had a great trip.
519
00:26:46,255 --> 00:26:46,414
Right.
520
00:26:46,414 --> 00:26:47,695
So it brings to humanity.
521
00:26:47,695 --> 00:26:52,980
It brings to the time we spend, the life's
energies that we spend into the actual media
522
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:53,299
form.
523
00:26:53,299 --> 00:26:53,940
That's right.
524
00:26:53,940 --> 00:26:54,980
And I think TikTok is
525
00:26:54,980 --> 00:26:56,180
the beginning of that.
526
00:26:56,180 --> 00:26:56,920
Got it.
527
00:26:57,140 --> 00:27:02,615
And we've got some ideas around things like
reply time and James session and lunch buddies.
528
00:27:02,615 --> 00:27:03,815
What tell us about those.
529
00:27:03,815 --> 00:27:06,535
What kind and then what kind of ideas are you
thinking about these days?
530
00:27:06,535 --> 00:27:06,695
Yeah.
531
00:27:06,695 --> 00:27:08,619
You know, that was just medium blog.
532
00:27:08,619 --> 00:27:11,713
That was just a funny thing that I was thinking
about the other night, and I was talking to a
533
00:27:11,713 --> 00:27:13,659
friend a couple weeks ago, and I was talking to
a friend.
534
00:27:13,659 --> 00:27:18,994
And and I was brainstorming all these ideas of,
like, how can we come together in this time of
535
00:27:18,994 --> 00:27:20,775
remote work and and humanity.
536
00:27:20,914 --> 00:27:23,234
And and I kind of went down 2 different paths.
537
00:27:23,234 --> 00:27:28,180
So the idea of, like, jam sessions what I wrote
was, wouldn't it be fun to give all these
538
00:27:28,180 --> 00:27:34,894
artists a tool where they can set up a private
jam session and charge 50 or $100 per person to
539
00:27:34,894 --> 00:27:40,335
join for an hour or 2 and have a very intimate
live video chat experience where you can have
540
00:27:40,335 --> 00:27:44,400
one on one conversation, and you can know who
the other friends are who are sitting there,
541
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,079
and you can all kind of groove to the music
together and have that same feeling as if you
542
00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:49,404
were in a social club.
543
00:27:49,404 --> 00:27:51,085
Was just, you know, we've actually now seen
this.
544
00:27:51,085 --> 00:27:51,965
I wrote this before.
545
00:27:51,965 --> 00:27:53,164
All this stuff was blowing up.
546
00:27:53,164 --> 00:27:57,724
We've now seen you know, I watched Chris Martin
in his living room or John Legend or, a bunch
547
00:27:57,724 --> 00:28:00,419
of Broadway stars you know, singing from their
bedrooms.
548
00:28:00,419 --> 00:28:04,500
And they've been doing this in a way that it's
just so much more intimate, but it's still,
549
00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:08,714
like, one to many feel like they're doing it
for their fans, but it hasn't sort of turned
550
00:28:08,714 --> 00:28:09,994
into a club and a business.
551
00:28:09,994 --> 00:28:13,994
And I do think there's a great room for someone
to build products that are that can actually
552
00:28:13,994 --> 00:28:15,694
allow people to to run these things.
553
00:28:15,819 --> 00:28:19,579
We're seeing that in fitness too where a lot of
fitness professionals are starting to run
554
00:28:19,579 --> 00:28:20,559
virtual classes.
555
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:27,174
Many tools to run the class, charge money, know
who's there, have real interactive experiences
556
00:28:27,394 --> 00:28:31,714
while this is going on, and and no great
products yet fully solved that.
557
00:28:31,714 --> 00:28:36,659
Lunch buddies was was a similar silly idea that
I had, which was you know, getting food right
558
00:28:36,659 --> 00:28:37,220
now is hard.
559
00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:41,140
Either you go into grocery stores and
following, very strict social distancing rules
560
00:28:41,140 --> 00:28:44,785
or you're trying to get delivery, which is
getting harder and harder as everybody's trying
561
00:28:44,785 --> 00:28:46,724
to get delivery and everything's at capacity.
562
00:28:46,785 --> 00:28:51,664
What if we could deliver food to a whole bunch
of Pete, and they could all sort of cook it
563
00:28:51,664 --> 00:28:56,429
together You could have sort of the, like, cook
at home, talk over lunch experience with a
564
00:28:56,429 --> 00:28:59,204
group of, like, ten people with even a
professional chef.
565
00:28:59,204 --> 00:29:02,724
Now logistically, that may actually be hard to
do, but I was just trying to think about, like,
566
00:29:02,724 --> 00:29:05,765
how do you bring the humanity back into these
moments of time?
567
00:29:05,765 --> 00:29:10,119
And then with reply time, this was something
that I had been thinking about a lot just for,
568
00:29:10,119 --> 00:29:13,319
like, how do we change work and work patterns,
especially when we're all remote?
569
00:29:13,319 --> 00:29:17,174
You know, when we're all working together, you
know, you might put out a question in a meeting
570
00:29:17,174 --> 00:29:19,414
and then certain people talk and dominate the
meeting.
571
00:29:19,414 --> 00:29:23,494
You might send something out over email and the
people who are just fast replyers always reply
572
00:29:23,494 --> 00:29:28,170
first And we all know that the first person to
reply often sets a tone for a conversation.
573
00:29:28,390 --> 00:29:32,250
If you put out a, a question or a thought and
the first person's like, that's terrible.
574
00:29:32,309 --> 00:29:37,414
Then the entire risk of the reply thread or the
slack thread or the meeting conversation is
575
00:29:37,474 --> 00:29:41,299
unwinding why it's terrible and why there might
be some merit in the idea I just didn't think
576
00:29:41,299 --> 00:29:44,500
about, like, in a workplace, you can usually
get over this because you can grab somebody
577
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:45,380
afterwards and say, hey.
578
00:29:45,380 --> 00:29:46,659
Please don't respond that way.
579
00:29:46,659 --> 00:29:50,315
We can go to three other people privately and
say, please give me your your feedback.
580
00:29:50,454 --> 00:29:56,214
As we move to fully remote, it gets harder to
have those sort of side conversations as
581
00:29:56,214 --> 00:30:00,450
meaningfully as a sort of in a sort of softly
And so I was thinking about, like, what if we
582
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:02,450
change the way that we go and ask for feedback?
583
00:30:02,450 --> 00:30:06,049
What if instead of first reply always wins and
Pete a tone for the thread?
584
00:30:06,049 --> 00:30:11,115
You put out an email and you say, Everybody can
reply to this email, and at an hour or 2 later,
585
00:30:11,115 --> 00:30:13,355
we will share all the replies all at once.
586
00:30:13,355 --> 00:30:15,934
So everybody gets to write a thoughtful piece
of feedback.
587
00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:19,659
And and you sort of delay the power of
firstness.
588
00:30:20,279 --> 00:30:24,144
And especially when nobody's working at home,
they have other distractions, maybe at home,
589
00:30:24,224 --> 00:30:28,305
They are doing real work, and they can't just
be on threads to respond to everything.
590
00:30:28,305 --> 00:30:32,865
If you could put in some delay, I think you
could really transform how we communicate at
591
00:30:32,865 --> 00:30:33,200
work.
592
00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,960
And I think this isn't just an idea for for,
you know, remote times.
593
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:43,704
I think this would be useful, you know, in so
many ways and in so many conversations, And,
594
00:30:43,924 --> 00:30:49,144
you know, we gotta remove the power of being
first to make sure that we hear from everybody.
595
00:30:49,365 --> 00:30:53,299
So these were just you know, ideas I've been
dancing around, and they're all about, like,
596
00:30:53,299 --> 00:30:58,500
how do you go find those moments of humanity
that we can bring back in and and
597
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:00,325
thoughtfulness and in connection.
598
00:31:00,865 --> 00:31:04,884
What's what's notable, of course, is that
you're talking about psychology.
599
00:31:05,024 --> 00:31:06,325
You're talking about emotions.
600
00:31:06,384 --> 00:31:11,900
You're talking you know, we say that we're in
the tech space, but, the fact is the way you're
601
00:31:11,900 --> 00:31:14,220
thinking about this is much more liberal arts,
right?
602
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:18,765
So it's much more about, about being human and
how we think and feel and painting with those
603
00:31:18,765 --> 00:31:24,340
colors, painting with that language as a way to
seek out new products, as a way to seek out new
604
00:31:24,340 --> 00:31:30,259
ideas that could impact people, make the world
better, build networks, you know, a lot of
605
00:31:30,259 --> 00:31:35,674
times with you know, in the tech space you see
with SAS or with e commerce Pete are talking
606
00:31:35,674 --> 00:31:37,195
about just pure numbers.
607
00:31:37,195 --> 00:31:40,940
You know, these are spreadsheet type
businesses, whereas What you're talking about
608
00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:46,159
is very much a a work of art around how it
makes somebody feel or James somebody think or
609
00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:48,484
the order in which we communicated.
610
00:31:48,544 --> 00:31:50,804
I mean, this is not this is not usual.
611
00:31:51,184 --> 00:31:56,480
This is this is an unusual sector within the
tech space that that you've now been encamped
612
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,259
in now for for 20 years.
613
00:31:59,279 --> 00:32:03,299
You know, do you find that a lot of people can
go with you with these conversations?
614
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:08,585
You You find like a lot of the founders out
there understand the depth of of emotion and
615
00:32:08,585 --> 00:32:09,085
psychology.
616
00:32:09,144 --> 00:32:13,039
You need to understand in order to find
something that's valuable and new and
617
00:32:13,039 --> 00:32:13,539
important?
618
00:32:13,679 --> 00:32:15,359
You know, I mean, I I very much think so.
619
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:20,240
And in fact, I think the best founders,
especially in this space, are great studies of
620
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,825
humanity They are great studies of people, and
they are really great psychologists.
621
00:32:25,125 --> 00:32:28,565
I used to say this is maybe 10 or 12 years ago.
622
00:32:28,565 --> 00:32:33,529
Like, Google is a technology company, and
Facebook is a psychology company.
623
00:32:33,589 --> 00:32:37,109
You know, if you think of the early tech of
Facebook, it was really just a bunch of forms
624
00:32:37,109 --> 00:32:41,434
that people could fill in how it communicated
the forms to other people, but it understood
625
00:32:41,434 --> 00:32:44,014
how to do that in a way that made humans feel
better.
626
00:32:44,075 --> 00:32:48,000
And that's really the secret of almost
everything that's been built then.
627
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,599
Evan Pete, when he was talking about the early
days of Snapchat, he very much sounded like a
628
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:59,234
psychologist too, where he talked about why
deletion by default changes the entire way that
629
00:32:59,234 --> 00:33:03,494
you perceive the person on the other side and
have the human connection.
630
00:33:03,634 --> 00:33:09,079
Ben Rubin, who's the founder of House Party And
Meerkat, is talked so much about the power of
631
00:33:09,139 --> 00:33:14,819
live video and how being live and trying to
create togetherness when we're not together has
632
00:33:14,819 --> 00:33:15,619
been so powerful.
633
00:33:15,619 --> 00:33:21,174
On house party, that hasn't changed that much
in, you know, almost 2 years as a product has
634
00:33:21,174 --> 00:33:26,919
been blowing up in the time of of COVID because
so many of those architectures that Beller
635
00:33:26,919 --> 00:33:33,259
built, and and that Ben and Seema and the team
built, you know, still live and thrive.
636
00:33:33,765 --> 00:33:37,384
And that's what makes these these products
Flint so special.
637
00:33:37,924 --> 00:33:41,625
Some people who come to technology or
architects, they think about building cities
638
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:42,890
They think about planning.
639
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:45,197
Some people are psychologists, and they think
about Pete.
640
00:33:45,670 --> 00:33:48,630
But I think these types of humanity need to be
applied.
641
00:33:48,630 --> 00:33:49,930
Technology is just the enabler.
642
00:33:50,335 --> 00:33:55,855
It's not the it's not the it's the soft it's an
ingredient in the sauce, but it's no longer the
643
00:33:55,855 --> 00:33:56,355
meal.
644
00:33:56,494 --> 00:33:56,974
Got it.
645
00:33:56,974 --> 00:34:00,180
The the real product here is the psychological
insight.
646
00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:05,839
And, you know, you, you and I, I was an early
angel investor in Morgan and helped Ben Rubin
647
00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:09,684
come over from Israel to the US and and you and
I invested in meerkat.
648
00:34:09,985 --> 00:34:14,644
Let's just talk quickly, you know, I think this
is these are useful stories for the founders
649
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,839
why do you think meerkat didn't work?
650
00:34:17,079 --> 00:34:20,920
What do you think happened with the house party
evolution and and and now it's blowing up?
651
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:21,319
Now it's now
652
00:34:21,319 --> 00:34:21,799
it's working.
653
00:34:21,799 --> 00:34:23,000
Now it's growing really quickly.
654
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,034
What's the story there?
655
00:34:24,114 --> 00:34:28,434
When I first invested in Meerkat, if I go back
to my 3 pillars, like, I believe that there was
656
00:34:28,434 --> 00:34:30,135
a massive trend towards live video.
657
00:34:30,275 --> 00:34:32,514
I believe that our phones could now support it.
658
00:34:32,514 --> 00:34:36,719
I believe that the networks could now support
it so you could turn a camera on anywhere.
659
00:34:36,780 --> 00:34:42,344
And if you could create the hub, the habit of
live video, the shows that people made, the
660
00:34:42,344 --> 00:34:44,585
shows that people wanted to tune in to watch.
661
00:34:44,585 --> 00:34:47,244
You could actually build a a a unique
independent network.
662
00:34:47,545 --> 00:34:52,680
And at the very earliest days, there was only a
few weeks sold when I invested, it was right
663
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,460
before south by southwest 2015.
664
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,519
You were seeing just amazing adoption in the
way that Ben had hooked into Twitter and into
665
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:00,545
the Twitter graph, and it creating these
connections.
666
00:35:00,764 --> 00:35:06,364
And one of my favorite internet moments was the
end of February 2015 when a couple of friends
667
00:35:06,364 --> 00:35:08,944
were at a restaurant, and I was sitting on my
couch at home.
668
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:12,949
And they were live streaming conversation with
the restaurant, and a whole bunch of us were in
669
00:35:12,949 --> 00:35:13,829
the comment thread.
670
00:35:13,829 --> 00:35:16,889
And then people started dialing on their phones
into the conversation.
671
00:35:17,589 --> 00:35:21,934
So we had, like, other people dialing in to
talk to the group.
672
00:35:22,235 --> 00:35:26,795
It was just this amazing social moment that we
were creating on the fly, even though not
673
00:35:26,795 --> 00:35:29,119
everybody was together, and it was so powerful.
674
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,460
And I was like, this feels like the future.
675
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,760
And and This was on meerkat.
676
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:34,800
This was all on meerkat.
677
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,235
This is, again, end of any of the February of
2015, right, a couple weeks before south by.
678
00:35:40,235 --> 00:35:43,835
And it was just blowing up, and they'd been out
for, like, 2 or 3 weeks at that point.
679
00:35:43,835 --> 00:35:48,889
And so, you know, we funded then, and we it a
lot in the company and the technology and and
680
00:35:48,889 --> 00:35:49,789
to keep growing.
681
00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:55,125
But a couple things that that didn't quite
happen is it's really hard to make good live
682
00:35:55,125 --> 00:35:56,644
video and to be a good host.
683
00:35:56,644 --> 00:36:01,410
And a very small number of people can do it,
and those people tended to be more interesting
684
00:36:01,410 --> 00:36:05,329
if they were already interesting in the world,
create audience, and then a very small group
685
00:36:05,329 --> 00:36:07,650
who could sort of, you know, become new live
stars.
686
00:36:07,650 --> 00:36:11,585
The second thing was it wasn't really a habit
we thought that there was more of a habit
687
00:36:11,585 --> 00:36:14,385
there, but it's exhausting and intense to go
live.
688
00:36:14,385 --> 00:36:19,300
And if you're only getting tens or 100 of
people to join your live video that actually
689
00:36:19,300 --> 00:36:22,980
doesn't feel as fulfilling if you're a
important celebrity is getting thousands or
690
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:25,219
millions of views on something else that you
create.
691
00:36:25,219 --> 00:36:27,355
So you'd rather spend time doing that to reach.
692
00:36:27,835 --> 00:36:32,715
And so it became this thing where where it was
sort of a nice to have occasional thing to do
693
00:36:32,715 --> 00:36:37,489
to augment your social media and on a personal
level, A bunch of people felt like it was too
694
00:36:37,489 --> 00:36:38,849
hard to keep going on.
695
00:36:38,849 --> 00:36:40,610
We would get awkward people in the chat.
696
00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:44,130
You didn't know, and you weren't really having
these meaningful conversations and
697
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:44,630
interactions.
698
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:49,795
And so Once Facebook and Twitter both came out
with their great live products, it was sort of
699
00:36:49,795 --> 00:36:53,530
clear that meerkat itself as an independent
stand alone entity wasn't gonna work.
700
00:36:53,690 --> 00:36:57,769
Because so many people were, you know, already
had audience on Facebook or Twitter.
701
00:36:57,769 --> 00:37:01,295
They didn't feel like they needed a new app,
and there wasn't enough to build a new network.
702
00:37:01,534 --> 00:37:07,934
So Ben took those insights, with CEMA, and they
went and rebuilt house party and said, wait a
703
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:08,094
sec.
704
00:37:08,094 --> 00:37:11,380
What if it's just private, small interactions
that really matter.
705
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:12,239
Can we go live?
706
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,039
Can we create a room?
707
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:16,659
Can we create a space where we now wanna come
and hang out in more often?
708
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,635
But even house party while it had a couple
moments of real blowing up, and it's so
709
00:37:20,635 --> 00:37:23,775
wonderful to see what it's serving, you know,
right now in the world.
710
00:37:23,994 --> 00:37:29,409
It never quite took off in the way that I hoped
it would is a a premium social network because
711
00:37:29,469 --> 00:37:32,849
getting on video chat for a long time still
felt intense.
712
00:37:32,909 --> 00:37:34,609
It felt like an extra effort.
713
00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:39,094
And A lot of us would do it sometimes and then
go, I don't wanna do that all the time.
714
00:37:39,094 --> 00:37:42,190
I'd rather either hang out with my friends or
just go home and watch TV.
715
00:37:42,429 --> 00:37:45,329
And so house party never quite became as
normalized.
716
00:37:45,710 --> 00:37:50,829
I'm I'm optimistic that after shelter in place,
we'll look forward to that even more than we
717
00:37:50,829 --> 00:37:51,569
used to.
718
00:37:51,715 --> 00:37:52,994
But there was a period of time.
719
00:37:52,994 --> 00:37:56,994
You know, we we launched house party in the,
like, middle of 2016, and there's a period
720
00:37:56,994 --> 00:38:02,890
between then and now that that it wasn't ever
as much of a thing to get on video with people
721
00:38:02,890 --> 00:38:06,349
other than a very occasional basis or maybe
called Gramma.
722
00:38:06,969 --> 00:38:11,815
And so so, you know, you gotta find those right
things you really believe in the world and have
723
00:38:11,815 --> 00:38:14,695
the right time for it to become normalized and
exactly the right products.
724
00:38:14,695 --> 00:38:18,650
I mean, even Zoom, you know, was just a great
business tool for a long time with what
725
00:38:18,650 --> 00:38:21,449
10,000,000 user, you know, meeting participants
per day.
726
00:38:21,449 --> 00:38:25,529
And they said, look, in March, we went from
that to 200,000,000 because all of a sudden, it
727
00:38:25,529 --> 00:38:26,170
became normalized.
728
00:38:26,170 --> 00:38:30,925
And the only thing you could do And so, you
know, sometimes you wait long enough to get
729
00:38:30,925 --> 00:38:33,005
lucky with something happening in the world.
730
00:38:33,005 --> 00:38:36,699
Hopefully, you don't get lucky at others
tragedy like what's happening right now, but
731
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:37,019
No.
732
00:38:37,019 --> 00:38:38,800
You kinda have to wait for your moment.
733
00:38:39,179 --> 00:38:39,579
Got it.
734
00:38:39,579 --> 00:38:44,139
And meerkat, you know, it was one of my my
least favorite internet moments was we were we
735
00:38:44,139 --> 00:38:47,434
were at south by the whole meerkat team was
staying in my hotel room.
736
00:38:47,434 --> 00:38:50,174
Everybody was sleeping on the floor and and and
whatnot.
737
00:38:50,234 --> 00:38:56,860
And it was a Friday night at 10 PM where we got
a call from the from the the biz dev folks at,
738
00:38:57,420 --> 00:39:02,300
Twitter telling us that Dick Costola had
decided to turn off Meerkat's, access to the
739
00:39:02,411 --> 00:39:03,085
Pete.
740
00:39:03,085 --> 00:39:07,744
Which meant that the viral growth was going to
stop, because it was blowing up all day long.
741
00:39:08,045 --> 00:39:10,204
That ended up having some impact on as well.
742
00:39:10,204 --> 00:39:14,949
Building building these things on top of
somebody else's network, typically leads to,
743
00:39:15,190 --> 00:39:17,750
getting turned off if you actually start to get
some traction.
744
00:39:17,750 --> 00:39:17,909
So
745
00:39:18,469 --> 00:39:18,789
Yeah.
746
00:39:18,789 --> 00:39:22,934
That's that's that growth hook that that I
talked about earlier that so important to
747
00:39:22,934 --> 00:39:27,434
understand your growth and to find a durable,
sustainable, repeatable channel.
748
00:39:27,575 --> 00:39:34,130
Because if you can't if you can't sustain it
through your own engine and your own effort, it
749
00:39:34,190 --> 00:39:38,675
it is easy to have a Google algorithm change, a
Facebook algorithm change a business
750
00:39:38,675 --> 00:39:44,195
development person or CEO decide to to shut you
down that all of a sudden can can take your
751
00:39:44,195 --> 00:39:45,015
growth away.
752
00:39:45,235 --> 00:39:50,269
Over there, Were there some, investments that
you wanted to make at GreatLock, but didn't?
753
00:39:50,329 --> 00:39:54,809
You know, I got really close to the Snapchat
team in the early days, just really believing
754
00:39:54,809 --> 00:39:57,905
again that this deletion by fault was gonna be
transformative.
755
00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:03,085
And we ended up not being able to pull it
together, at the last minute, and that was a,
756
00:40:03,324 --> 00:40:06,949
quite a big bummer to me because they've got on
and built an amazing company.
757
00:40:07,329 --> 00:40:11,489
You know, I I'm not sure the Snapchat's as big
and it sees as much of the opportunity as I
758
00:40:11,489 --> 00:40:16,125
thought it could back then, but it's still
quite large and quite impressive and and really
759
00:40:16,125 --> 00:40:20,605
special on what they're doing and changing with
lenses and cameras and other stuff.
760
00:40:20,605 --> 00:40:26,309
And, I also looked back at Zoom and, you know,
I met Eric in the very early days, and he was
761
00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:30,175
actually trying to build more of a consumer
product in the first 1st days rather than a a b
762
00:40:30,175 --> 00:40:32,974
to b 1 and just thought the technology they
were building.
763
00:40:32,974 --> 00:40:36,059
It was already so much smoother than anything
Beller.
764
00:40:36,059 --> 00:40:37,579
And I I wish we had invested.
765
00:40:37,579 --> 00:40:43,579
I think we thought business, video conferencing
was such a sort of tried and trodden and sort
766
00:40:43,579 --> 00:40:46,664
of Morgan path it was gonna be hard to build a
new company.
767
00:40:46,664 --> 00:40:51,784
And and, you know, I think still Eric's an
example where we build better technology than
768
00:40:51,784 --> 00:40:53,965
everything else, and it just works.
769
00:40:54,329 --> 00:40:56,989
And you can turn that into a a really great
company.
770
00:40:57,049 --> 00:40:57,210
Yeah.
771
00:40:57,210 --> 00:41:02,635
It's interesting that, you know, we had Skype
and then we got, Google Hangouts and and they
772
00:41:02,635 --> 00:41:04,255
were sitting there with the networks.
773
00:41:04,394 --> 00:41:07,855
They were sitting there with the, identities of
people already.
774
00:41:08,315 --> 00:41:13,699
And then Zoom just came kinda out of nowhere,
and did basically the same thing.
775
00:41:13,699 --> 00:41:13,940
Right?
776
00:41:13,940 --> 00:41:16,019
It wasn't like there was a big psychological
insight.
777
00:41:16,019 --> 00:41:17,380
There was no big emotional insight.
778
00:41:17,380 --> 00:41:18,759
It was literally just technology.
779
00:41:18,980 --> 00:41:19,480
Right.
780
00:41:19,885 --> 00:41:24,125
And, that was kind of hard to predict, I guess,
is what you're saying is, like, even though you
781
00:41:24,125 --> 00:41:28,180
saw them, it wasn't that easy to predict that
that was what's gonna I mean, clearly other
782
00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:32,260
investors who invested are saying, oh, I was so
pressing, and I could see exactly what was
783
00:41:32,260 --> 00:41:32,900
gonna happen.
784
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:37,614
But but I do think that it sort of does come
back to the Can you actually build a 10 x
785
00:41:37,614 --> 00:41:40,035
better product and truly deliver on that
promise?
786
00:41:40,494 --> 00:41:44,094
And Zoom truly is 10 x better than every other
video technology.
787
00:41:44,094 --> 00:41:48,329
I mean, Google giant company has been building
video, you know, meeting technology for a long
788
00:41:48,329 --> 00:41:48,570
time.
789
00:41:48,570 --> 00:41:53,070
It's just never worked as well and smoothly and
seamlessly and scalably as zoom.
790
00:41:53,394 --> 00:41:56,755
So I do think that there is a path to building
the 10 x better product.
791
00:41:56,755 --> 00:42:01,335
Discord was 10 x better than the audio chat
products that gamers were using before.
792
00:42:01,389 --> 00:42:06,589
I think if you're gonna do that, you really
need to be technology first and writing a new
793
00:42:06,589 --> 00:42:11,195
technology wave that makes it work differently
and and Flint truly spread differently.
794
00:42:11,335 --> 00:42:18,760
Like, Discord was able to to leverage, web, RTS
for audio streaming within the browser that
795
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,160
made it easy for me to send you a link and be
talking to you within a minute without you
796
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:28,105
having to download anything, Zoom was able to
use this cloud technology to make the video
797
00:42:28,105 --> 00:42:32,664
streaming so much more efficient and so much
faster and get out to the edges much better
798
00:42:32,664 --> 00:42:33,704
than everything else.
799
00:42:33,704 --> 00:42:39,069
And so I do think that that you can ride
technology waves, but you really have to be a
800
00:42:39,069 --> 00:42:41,730
great product as well as a great technology.
801
00:42:42,109 --> 00:42:46,534
And so if I'm a if I'm a early stage founder,
how do I know if I've got a 10 x better
802
00:42:46,534 --> 00:42:47,034
product?
803
00:42:47,174 --> 00:42:53,014
Is there any, I mean, I, I can logically say,
oh, we've got this, this edge computing with
804
00:42:53,014 --> 00:42:58,150
the cloud now that's gonna hopefully allow me
to build a 10 x better product with zoom, or
805
00:42:58,150 --> 00:43:02,469
this WebRTS is kinda sucky right now, but I
anticipate it's gonna get good over the next
806
00:43:02,469 --> 00:43:03,514
12, 14 months.
807
00:43:03,594 --> 00:43:07,194
I can imagine why that would give me an
advantage in Ten X ing the technology of the
808
00:43:07,194 --> 00:43:08,094
product experience.
809
00:43:08,154 --> 00:43:09,434
But how do you, how do you know?
810
00:43:09,434 --> 00:43:10,795
What, what are those things you look for?
811
00:43:10,795 --> 00:43:14,760
Because as investors, investors have to also
know that 10x better product in order to want
812
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,360
to put the money in and take the bet when
you're going into crowded marketplaces like
813
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,079
zoom was.
814
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:23,445
You know, I mean, this is this is the hard part
as I think you as a founder and the founding
815
00:43:23,445 --> 00:43:28,324
team really have to believe in that premise
that now is a time to build something better
816
00:43:28,324 --> 00:43:32,150
and that you're so frustrated with the old
technology that you can go do it.
817
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:37,190
You know, the Zoom founders had the benefit of
having built Webex for many, many years.
818
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:41,190
And so they knew what what worked and what
didn't and what old architectures were and what
819
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:42,505
new architectures could provide.
820
00:43:42,505 --> 00:43:45,704
And, you know, again, they started in the
consumer space, but then eventually, probably
821
00:43:45,704 --> 00:43:50,184
when their non competes ran out pivoted back
into to business, and it's a market that they
822
00:43:50,184 --> 00:43:51,224
knew well and that they could do.
823
00:43:51,224 --> 00:43:52,630
They could build a better product.
824
00:43:52,929 --> 00:43:57,969
With Discord, they just they were James, and
they built something that they wanted to use
825
00:43:57,969 --> 00:44:00,630
that was better than the the stuff that they
had before.
826
00:44:00,715 --> 00:44:05,034
And so that was a a big shift for them, but
they just like, this is so much better.
827
00:44:05,034 --> 00:44:06,414
And, look, we can do this.
828
00:44:06,474 --> 00:44:09,514
And when they started using it and shared it
with their friends, all their friends were
829
00:44:09,514 --> 00:44:10,840
like, This is amazing.
830
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:12,500
Why would we ever go back?
831
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:14,099
You know, and so you just have to know that.
832
00:44:14,099 --> 00:44:18,675
And, you know, one of the things that I often
ask founding teams is Do you use your product?
833
00:44:18,675 --> 00:44:20,114
How much do you love your product?
834
00:44:20,114 --> 00:44:21,875
Is this embodying your habits?
835
00:44:21,875 --> 00:44:27,070
And I think in the consumer world, that's
foundational And if you don't love your product
836
00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:30,989
and use it all the time and haven't shifted
over completely for these reasons, it's gonna
837
00:44:30,989 --> 00:44:35,775
be really hard for you to convince others too
through whatever growth tactics or other things
838
00:44:35,775 --> 00:44:36,434
you use.
839
00:44:36,574 --> 00:44:37,074
Right.
840
00:44:37,215 --> 00:44:37,934
It's interesting.
841
00:44:37,934 --> 00:44:42,175
I mean, discord is a little bit, like just UNX
IRC from the nineties.
842
00:44:42,175 --> 00:44:42,489
Right?
843
00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:43,070
Yep.
844
00:44:43,130 --> 00:44:47,130
Just with emojis and although bells and
whistles we can put on it today, but it's it's
845
00:44:47,130 --> 00:44:51,114
a behavior that we saw, taking place right at
the beginning of connectivity.
846
00:44:51,335 --> 00:44:52,074
That's right.
847
00:44:52,454 --> 00:44:57,480
And and and it's really it's not so much that's
a new behavior is that it's done better and
848
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,440
done so much more easily than any of the ones
that came before.
849
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:05,964
You know, whereas like Snapchat, Facebook,
TikTok, musically, these all really brought new
850
00:45:05,964 --> 00:45:07,184
behaviors into the world.
851
00:45:07,244 --> 00:45:08,545
So both can work.
852
00:45:08,605 --> 00:45:09,105
Right.
853
00:45:09,244 --> 00:45:09,744
Right.
854
00:45:10,204 --> 00:45:16,839
And as you think about, some pinnacle things
you've seen in the last 12, 15 years around
855
00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:18,619
social media and social communications.
856
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:25,234
I would love to hear any things stand out that
CEOs did that you thought were, wow, that's
857
00:45:25,234 --> 00:45:26,195
incredibly innovative.
858
00:45:26,195 --> 00:45:27,635
That really stands out.
859
00:45:27,635 --> 00:45:32,369
That was, that was a big shift in how things
could have gone because of what that founder
860
00:45:32,369 --> 00:45:32,869
did.
861
00:45:32,929 --> 00:45:35,269
Are there some things that you look back on
like that?
862
00:45:35,650 --> 00:45:41,235
You know, I'm not sure that I I ever think of,
like, the grand gesture are really standing
863
00:45:41,235 --> 00:45:41,555
out.
864
00:45:41,555 --> 00:45:46,454
The ones that that stand out still to me the
most were the ones who had their heads down,
865
00:45:46,755 --> 00:45:52,469
building and found their way to a product that
they loved and that they got other people
866
00:45:52,469 --> 00:45:53,510
around them to love.
867
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:59,085
And so like, the the examples I keep coming
back to you is, you know, when I first met Evan
868
00:45:59,085 --> 00:46:03,485
at Snapchat, and he talked about how they
started with this thing, and then they kept
869
00:46:03,485 --> 00:46:07,619
showing it to high school kids, and it wasn't
quite working, and they would make these
870
00:46:07,619 --> 00:46:08,019
changes.
871
00:46:08,019 --> 00:46:10,500
And then they figured out that screenshot and
freak people out.
872
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:12,295
So they added screenshot checking.
873
00:46:12,295 --> 00:46:14,614
And then all of a sudden, everybody felt
comfortable to use it.
874
00:46:14,614 --> 00:46:19,414
It was it was the story of how we talked to
people, heard what their objections were, heard
875
00:46:19,414 --> 00:46:23,739
what their challenges were, went and build
features that tried to solve those, gave it
876
00:46:23,739 --> 00:46:26,000
back to them, and kept that tight narrative
loop.
877
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:31,804
And and that sort of talking to customers,
being your best customer, is really what what
878
00:46:31,804 --> 00:46:32,364
made it work.
879
00:46:32,364 --> 00:46:39,369
When I met the the musically folks, the founder
was actually in his late thirties and had a
880
00:46:39,369 --> 00:46:40,190
young child.
881
00:46:40,409 --> 00:46:45,630
And the majority of his yearly users were 13,
15, 16, 18.
882
00:46:46,594 --> 00:46:51,235
Who are building musically, but they had a
WeChat group set up, and they were talking to
883
00:46:51,235 --> 00:46:57,049
them every day, asking them questions, sending
them mock ups, getting feedback, you know, what
884
00:46:57,049 --> 00:46:59,449
would make you switch from Instagram to use
this?
885
00:46:59,449 --> 00:47:00,989
What else do you want us to do?
886
00:47:01,049 --> 00:47:01,210
Hey.
887
00:47:01,210 --> 00:47:04,094
What were you they would send them videos they
were trying to and say, hey.
888
00:47:04,094 --> 00:47:06,675
If you made the capture tool, do this, it would
be amazing.
889
00:47:06,974 --> 00:47:10,894
And they were just in such constant
communication with their customers that that is
890
00:47:10,894 --> 00:47:11,775
what made it take off.
891
00:47:11,775 --> 00:47:14,630
And I think that is the the the real secret.
892
00:47:15,090 --> 00:47:19,910
And and really it's the emotional tenor of that
CEO to be able to maintain those conversations
893
00:47:20,130 --> 00:47:23,744
and to realize that the product you have now
isn't quite working.
894
00:47:23,804 --> 00:47:29,565
You thought was right last week is still not
right this week, and you need to keep being
895
00:47:29,565 --> 00:47:29,965
humble.
896
00:47:29,965 --> 00:47:34,049
You need to maintain this nice balance between
believing in yourself and believing in your
897
00:47:34,049 --> 00:47:39,409
product and believing in the mission, but also
being relentlessly skeptical that you've nailed
898
00:47:39,409 --> 00:47:39,775
it.
899
00:47:39,775 --> 00:47:41,934
And that's a difficult emotional place for
people.
900
00:47:41,934 --> 00:47:48,255
It's, there's a real facility that Eric and
others have shown in, in, in balancing, those
901
00:47:48,255 --> 00:47:48,994
two things.
902
00:47:49,460 --> 00:47:53,539
Do do you find that personality type in these
CEOs that are successful this way?
903
00:47:53,539 --> 00:47:53,780
Yeah.
904
00:47:53,780 --> 00:47:58,844
I mean, I think that that's a real important
secret, especially in in social, is Your
905
00:47:58,844 --> 00:48:00,204
product is never good enough.
906
00:48:00,204 --> 00:48:05,405
You're never harboring enough of the trends,
and you have to keep searching for what really
907
00:48:05,405 --> 00:48:10,930
moves Pete, and you have to keep building the
features to do that and keep understanding the
908
00:48:10,930 --> 00:48:15,090
growth hooks and the reasons that somebody uses
your product and spreads it because you're so
909
00:48:15,090 --> 00:48:21,065
dependent on people using it meaningfully in
their lives all the time on a repeat basis that
910
00:48:21,065 --> 00:48:23,065
you really need to to keep changing.
911
00:48:23,065 --> 00:48:25,769
And people keep changing, and so products have
to change too.
912
00:48:25,849 --> 00:48:28,090
And I think that's a a really important thing
to understand.
913
00:48:28,090 --> 00:48:33,804
And as you go from your earliest adopters to
your later adopters, to the early majority, You
914
00:48:33,804 --> 00:48:37,885
also have to understand that, like, it has to
get simpler and it has to get dumbed down and
915
00:48:37,885 --> 00:48:42,364
the onboarding process has to get a lot more
robust in order to get more and more people on
916
00:48:42,364 --> 00:48:42,605
it.
917
00:48:42,605 --> 00:48:45,380
And great products have to evolve that way as
well.
918
00:48:45,380 --> 00:48:47,300
And that's been one of the strengths of
Facebook.
919
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:51,619
It's just it's like a shark constantly swimming
forward, constantly experimenting and changing
920
00:48:51,619 --> 00:48:57,324
every feature on the on all of their products,
and that mentality, to constantly iterate is is
921
00:48:57,324 --> 00:49:00,625
stayed with them all these years Pete the fact
that they're so big now.
922
00:49:01,530 --> 00:49:05,849
You know, seeing founders who don't have that
approach, trying to get into social media, I
923
00:49:05,849 --> 00:49:08,315
just don't feel like there's a good personality
fit there.
924
00:49:08,315 --> 00:49:09,994
I mean, you look at at Vine.
925
00:49:09,994 --> 00:49:12,155
I mean, Vine was TikTok before TikTok.
926
00:49:12,155 --> 00:49:12,554
Right?
927
00:49:12,554 --> 00:49:13,054
Yes.
928
00:49:13,114 --> 00:49:15,194
And yet, why didn't why didn't Vine go?
929
00:49:15,194 --> 00:49:19,489
Why why wasn't Vine TikTok Do you do you have a
few reasons that you could point to there?
930
00:49:19,630 --> 00:49:19,950
Yeah.
931
00:49:19,950 --> 00:49:25,125
One of the things that was unique about
Musically because it was really why it was in
932
00:49:25,125 --> 00:49:29,844
vine musically, because musically got big, then
it got sold, then it got even further invested
933
00:49:29,844 --> 00:49:32,744
in, to make TikTok, which is the phenomenon
now.
934
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:36,680
And we can even talk about what changed between
Musically and TikTok to make it a truth
935
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:41,614
phenomenon, but with Vine, pea they were 6
seconds Morgan, and a couple Pete got so good,
936
00:49:41,614 --> 00:49:47,054
so early at making things really, really funny
that it felt very hard for most people to
937
00:49:47,054 --> 00:49:47,875
create anything.
938
00:49:48,014 --> 00:49:52,730
And so Vine very quickly moved into a world
where there were a few great creators and a lot
939
00:49:52,730 --> 00:49:56,809
of watchers and very few other creators or
sharers.
940
00:49:56,809 --> 00:49:59,789
And so it became a media network more than
anything.
941
00:50:00,074 --> 00:50:05,515
Musically became a lip synching product where
it was actually pretty easy for anybody to make
942
00:50:05,515 --> 00:50:06,954
something that felt pretty good.
943
00:50:06,954 --> 00:50:11,869
Just like Instagram, let you make a photo that
felt pretty good in the earliest days of
944
00:50:11,869 --> 00:50:12,369
Instagram.
945
00:50:12,510 --> 00:50:17,304
With musically, you could put on a song you
like and just sing into the camera, and it
946
00:50:17,304 --> 00:50:22,505
looks more professional or more fun than any
other video you might have made to record your
947
00:50:22,505 --> 00:50:22,664
life.
948
00:50:22,664 --> 00:50:24,844
And just the music soundtrack changes
everything.
949
00:50:25,199 --> 00:50:29,519
There were 15 second samples, and they quickly
became, you know, in partnership with all the
950
00:50:29,519 --> 00:50:30,320
music labels.
951
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,784
So And so and so you're saying that the the
original musically features were instead of 6
952
00:50:35,025 --> 00:50:41,344
with Vine, it was 15 seconds, and they started
the community to do lip synching, which guided
953
00:50:41,344 --> 00:50:47,300
a certain social behavior within the community,
which turned out to be an easier thing for more
954
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:49,619
creators to do better at, which is what made
the difference.
955
00:50:49,619 --> 00:50:55,035
So they narrowed down the types of content they
wanted people to make around lip syncing music.
956
00:50:55,035 --> 00:50:59,755
And by narrowing, they actually created a a
whiter hotter center to then launch from.
957
00:50:59,755 --> 00:51:01,079
Is that is that part of the story?
958
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:01,559
Yeah.
959
00:51:01,559 --> 00:51:07,079
But but where you say narrowing, I would say
actually just enabling people to make something
960
00:51:07,079 --> 00:51:09,445
that was better because it actually just had a
soundtrack.
961
00:51:09,445 --> 00:51:13,125
And so a lot of people, the simplest thing you
could do when you have a soundtrack is just do
962
00:51:13,125 --> 00:51:13,765
a lip sync.
963
00:51:13,765 --> 00:51:18,139
There were a lot of people that were also
trying to make you know, fun videos of life or
964
00:51:18,139 --> 00:51:23,099
other things, but when you have a good song
underneath an even mediocre video content, it
965
00:51:23,099 --> 00:51:24,859
makes the whole experience much better.
966
00:51:24,859 --> 00:51:30,635
Now part of the reason that Musically didn't
get as big as as TikTok is right now on its own
967
00:51:30,635 --> 00:51:35,679
without selling to ByteDance is because the
music soundtracks and the early lip syncing use
968
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:40,480
cases actually did become somewhat narrowing,
where most people were doing lip syncs, and
969
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,954
they wanted people to be doing comedy and
dancing and funny things and educational things
970
00:51:45,954 --> 00:51:47,815
and all of these other types of content.
971
00:51:48,034 --> 00:51:53,219
But because, soundtrack made people think about
lip syncing, too many people actually lip
972
00:51:53,219 --> 00:51:56,099
synced, part of what the change to TikTok did.
973
00:51:56,099 --> 00:51:57,320
They rebranded it.
974
00:51:57,460 --> 00:52:01,140
They did pay 100 of 1,000,000 of Beller, and
then a lot of that was getting different
975
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:06,005
influencers to create different types of
content onto TikTok, but they were able to show
976
00:52:06,005 --> 00:52:08,744
all these examples of things that weren't lip
syncs.
977
00:52:08,860 --> 00:52:13,500
And then and they're actually algorithms make
sure that you don't see a lot of lip synchs
978
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:14,300
videos right now.
979
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:18,554
And so all of a sudden, they were able to
change the mix of the content that people
980
00:52:18,554 --> 00:52:23,434
viewed and people were inspired by and people
did what other people were doing to be a much
981
00:52:23,434 --> 00:52:24,155
broader mix.
982
00:52:24,155 --> 00:52:28,660
And that's what sort of Beller spawn TikTok to
be the massive phenomenon that it is today.
983
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:34,559
So elevating the early videos on Musically with
soundtrack will will both help them get, you
984
00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:40,255
know, break out in a way that Vine didn't, but
then also became just enough of a drag that it
985
00:52:40,255 --> 00:52:45,840
had to flip into this other this other model
with TikTok, which was a massive reinvestment,
986
00:52:46,300 --> 00:52:48,320
but it's gonna pay off in spades.
987
00:52:48,619 --> 00:52:48,780
Yeah.
988
00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:53,034
I mean, this is something I feel like founders
make a mistake on all the time.
989
00:52:53,034 --> 00:52:58,155
I mean, there were several social networks that
we had 30, 50,000,000 people before Facebook
990
00:52:58,155 --> 00:52:58,974
ever launched.
991
00:52:59,034 --> 00:53:01,375
Facebook comes in and says we're just doing
colleges.
992
00:53:01,889 --> 00:53:05,989
Really narrow market, but that ended up
allowing them to use real identities first,
993
00:53:06,210 --> 00:53:09,190
which then allowed them to springboard into
owning the whole space.
994
00:53:09,454 --> 00:53:13,215
You see the same thing with fiber, you know,
the marketplace where they said everything for
995
00:53:13,215 --> 00:53:13,715
$5.
996
00:53:13,934 --> 00:53:15,215
They really restricted it.
997
00:53:15,215 --> 00:53:19,869
They, they narrowed the focus until it was a
white hot center around just things for $5.
998
00:53:20,170 --> 00:53:22,089
And now, of course, $5 and more.
999
00:53:22,089 --> 00:53:25,609
You know, they they've they've now expanded it
over the last 6, 8 years.
1000
00:53:25,609 --> 00:53:29,454
And then, musically ended up doing the same
thing, saying, no, let's through lip synching
1001
00:53:29,595 --> 00:53:34,315
instead of doing everything, and then that got
them to get big enough so that they could then
1002
00:53:34,315 --> 00:53:36,155
be a springboard that they can go do
everything.
1003
00:53:36,155 --> 00:53:41,679
And it's really hard as a founder to decide to
narrow your focus, to limit, or guide your
1004
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:45,199
community or culture onto a specific thing or
or look at Twitch, right?
1005
00:53:45,199 --> 00:53:46,639
Twitch came out of Justin TV.
1006
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:47,905
Justin TV was everything.
1007
00:53:47,905 --> 00:53:52,545
And then they found one narrow niche around the
gaming, and then they they they actually went
1008
00:53:52,545 --> 00:53:53,744
from broad to narrow.
1009
00:53:53,744 --> 00:53:56,625
And then that narrowness is what gave them
their their real growth.
1010
00:53:56,625 --> 00:53:59,260
And so Sometimes narrowness can really help.
1011
00:53:59,260 --> 00:54:01,739
You just have to know when to, broaden it.
1012
00:54:01,739 --> 00:54:06,944
And, I remember having a, debate with Bill
Gurley at a dinner was very loud vociferous
1013
00:54:07,005 --> 00:54:12,045
where he was claiming that Facebook should stay
focused on colleges and do classifieds and, you
1014
00:54:12,045 --> 00:54:15,869
know, use books and everything for for
colleges, and that was their best way.
1015
00:54:15,869 --> 00:54:20,269
And my argument was like, no, they need to flip
out of colleges and go after everything, but
1016
00:54:20,269 --> 00:54:22,765
it's, it's a matter of the timing of when
they're going to do that.
1017
00:54:22,765 --> 00:54:27,325
And so this, this narrow focus, can be very,
very helpful for companies at the beginning,
1018
00:54:27,325 --> 00:54:29,565
and it's, and it's hard to do because you want
to take the whole thing.
1019
00:54:29,565 --> 00:54:32,766
And there's a lot of venture people who say,
well, that's not siding, why would I just wanna
1020
00:54:32,766 --> 00:54:33,766
do lip synching?
1021
00:54:33,766 --> 00:54:33,993
That's stupid.
1022
00:54:33,993 --> 00:54:34,500
That's too small.
1023
00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:35,940
Why would I just wanna do colleges?
1024
00:54:35,940 --> 00:54:36,660
That's too small.
1025
00:54:36,660 --> 00:54:40,535
But in the end, as you said, you've gotta find
that that white hot center where you've got a
1026
00:54:40,535 --> 00:54:44,135
few people who are serving their needs a 100%
and then expand from there.
1027
00:54:44,135 --> 00:54:44,635
Absolutely.
1028
00:54:45,175 --> 00:54:45,675
Absolutely.
1029
00:54:45,815 --> 00:54:50,920
It's really finding that early group that
doesn't just use your product, but really uses
1030
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,005
it, depends on it, brings it into their lives
in a super meaningful way.
1031
00:54:55,085 --> 00:54:59,404
And and once you have that, now you have a base
that you have a chance to build from and
1032
00:54:59,404 --> 00:55:01,585
replicate and and keep expanding.
1033
00:55:01,724 --> 00:55:06,309
You know, we're seeing that in Discord right
now, which is the gamer use case was so
1034
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:11,109
fundamental to get it as big as it is, but a
lot of people now aren't gamers that are using
1035
00:55:11,109 --> 00:55:13,324
Discord, and the product has to change a little
bit.
1036
00:55:13,324 --> 00:55:17,973
To serve those people while not alienating that
core base of gamers, as Beller.
1037
00:55:18,045 --> 00:55:21,719
And, and, you know, if it really wants to, to
help a lot more people connect.
1038
00:55:22,039 --> 00:55:25,639
You know, and so that's, you know, always a
trade off is do you build a giant gaming
1039
00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:28,619
business, or do you build something that's
that's even bigger?
1040
00:55:29,695 --> 00:55:32,575
Well, Josh, this has been a fantastic
conversation as always.
1041
00:55:32,575 --> 00:55:33,775
I love talking with you, buddy.
1042
00:55:33,775 --> 00:55:35,375
I love thinking about these things with you.
1043
00:55:35,375 --> 00:55:36,094
It's great fun.
1044
00:55:36,094 --> 00:55:36,710
Thank you.
1045
00:55:36,710 --> 00:55:37,030
Thanks.
1046
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:38,230
Thanks so much for having me.
1047
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:39,130
This was awesome.