Toxic Superfoods: Are Chocolate, Spinach and Almonds Making You Sick? | Sally K. Norton

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A high-oxalate diet is likely to be the major contributor to everything you think of as aging.
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Arthritis, dementia, vision loss, osteoporosis, five to eight spinach leaves is your daily capacity.
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I believe that the low-oxalate diet is the fountain of youth.
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What are some of the foods you're deliberately eating because you've been told they're healthy are actually contributing to the health issues you can't seem to shake?
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Welcome back to Everyday Ancestral.
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My guest today, Sally Norton, is shining a light on what she believes is a major blind spot in the health movement.
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Sally has a degree in nutrition from Cornell, a master of public health, and is the author of Toxic Superfoods.
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Sally, let's start with your own experience.
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What were you eating because you believed it was healthy, and what started happening that made you question these foods?
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Yes.
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I was the one kid who would eat her vegetables.
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I'm the middle of five children, and I love my vegetables from the start.
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And I love main dishes and savory food so much that I would be done and skip the ice cream and run out and play.
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Like, I've always been a veggie kid.
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You'd skip the ice cream.
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Oh, yeah.
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Like, I'm good.
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I want three servings of the main dish and plenty of ice vegetables.
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I'm like, ah, no, I got to go play now.
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Bye.
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Bye.
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I was learning gardening at age nine.
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I had my own garden plot.
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And my mom's like, grow Swiss chard.
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It's so much better than spinach.
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It's a cut and come vegetable.
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And we grew up doing beet greens, a little baby beets on them.
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My dad was like, yeah, you put vinegar on them.
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It's so great.
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So my parents were...
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quite big on having vegetables with dinner, and I grew up with that.
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And then I got really into health because I was sick on that healthy diet as a kid.
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I was already sick.
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I was having strap.
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They were spruing penicillin in my mouth.
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Oh, that is disgusting.
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And by the age five, I had my tonsils taken out.
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And I hated that.
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That was awful.
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This is not the life I want to live.
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I want to go swimming.
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I don't want swimmers here.
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I want to go have fun.
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And so it was just part of my consciousness that I wanted to not be sick.
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And I figured out around age 12 or 13 that nutrition was the biggest piece of that.
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So I have been on this path of healthy eating.
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So I've been doing it all.
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We had rhubarb crisps made in the backyard, rhubarb and freshly made.
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cherry things out of the cherry tree and applesauce.
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And we had all this scratch cooking growing up.
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I believed in that.
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My health is terrible.
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I started having problems at age 12.
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With arthritis, my grandmother called it growing pains.
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Neurological issues.
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In high school, I was really struggling to focus on reading and learning, which wasn't so good for a kid trying to do honors classes.
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And then in college, my foot went bad, my left foot, and then it became both feet.
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And I had to drop out of college to go get foot surgery.
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My feet never really recovered from that until...
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I was 49 years old and really got into this thing about, oh, oh, my sweet potatoes, my Swiss chard are trouble, my kiwis.
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This was a revelation to me despite my nutrition background.
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So yeah, I just went into veggie-centric eating and whole foods eating, all the stuff we're supposed to do, the heroic non-processed life that was me.
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I got sick on it.
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So when did you make the connection to those foods?
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I mean, this was so young that you got sick and then you only learned about nutrition when you were much older.
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So how did you make those connections?
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Well, now once you've recognized the problem late in life, you go back and you look at that story and you can see how that story unfolded.
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But you don't see it at the time.
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When I really was starting to go extra fast downhill was right when I started graduate school, when I got off the vegan diet.
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And I did that because I was now clearly...
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getting fatigue reactions and really sick reactions and skin reactions to wheat, bread, and beans.
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So I couldn't eat wheat and beans.
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And as a vegan, you cannot, there's not much to live.
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So I started eating sweet potatoes instead of bread and chicken and turkey instead of, you know, tofu.
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I was living on tofu.
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And at that time, I quickly developed severe pain at night that would usually hit the rhomboid muscle near the shoulder blade in the back like a knife.
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I started getting little brown dots everywhere that the dermatologist called aging spots.
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And I'm like 34 at the time.
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Like, oh, that's not good news.
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I got this cyst on my head.
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That's why I was at the dermatologist.
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I had to have him take it off because I couldn't really style my hair because it was really bothering me.
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And now I realize that was all a response to the sweet potato.
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I had gone from bad to worse, starting to make sweet potato a staple, a brown rice, because I wasn't eating the whole wheat bread.
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All of those things are high in oxalic acid, but I knew that oxalate mattered for kidney stone patients and kidney patients generally.
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That's what we use it for in dietetics, the low oxalate diet.
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So I've never had a kidney problem except that I'm always turning in cloudy urine.
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Every time I did an annual exam and they asked for a urine sample, I would turn in a little cup of something that looked like somebody poured a little cream in there because it was kind of white and cloudy.
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And is that a sign of high oxalates?
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It is.
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Interesting.
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It's a sign of crystals in the urine that the light is bouncing off little microscopic, invisible to you, but light photons are bouncing around and gives it a cloudy appearance.
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And I put out cloudy urine almost all the time for many, many decades.
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And for about eight years after I changed my diet, because that same Swiss chard and sweet potatoes and bran and things I was eating...
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has caused deposits, accumulation of the stuff in my body.
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And so even after I stopped eating it, I still had oxalate poisoning problem.
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And that is one of the big issues here.
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But so many people would be eating the way you were, having ailments or symptoms, but they wouldn't necessarily connect it to oxalates.
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What was it that made you connect it to oxalates?
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Thank God for Joanne of the Vulvar Pain Foundation and her little website.
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Because when I had an attack in 2009 for about two days of severe vulvar pain, which is like so bad.
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I literally, in my house, I said out loud, somebody cut these off because I don't need genitals anymore.
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And my husband panicked and did a Google search and found the Vulvar Pain Foundation.
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And I'm like, what?
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That's a kidney stone thing.
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And they're saying it's like there's this thing called like a connected tissue disorder, which I really hadn't learned about in school in public health.
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And that people with the pelvic pain syndromes, both men and women, that affect the genitalia and beyond, do really well when they get the oxalates out of their diet.
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And she could explain it in her layperson's way, but it didn't satisfy my highly logical science-y opinion.
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way of understanding because I'm like a nutrition person and a holistic healing person and an academic public health professional.
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So I needed a different explanation.
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But I tried it out of desperation, but my vulva pain went away and I thought, well, you know, I'm done with that and I don't have that problem.
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So I don't really need that diet.
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And by the way, when I eat sweet potatoes again, it doesn't really bother me.
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So I
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That's not it.
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Then I was still having all these other problems.
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I have these many layers of health problems.
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My feet are not great for years.
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My digestion is terrible.
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I have arthritis and pain syndromes and chemical sensitivity and masseter pain and tend to grind at night and losing my night vision and just some kinds of issues.
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Then I'm like, well, I needed a hysterectomy.
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I had to leave my job writing research grants.
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What age are you at this point?
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At this point, I was 48.
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No, 48 years.
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It was 2010 when I had my hysterectomy.
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I had to leave my job.
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And they got in there.
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They found endometriosis.
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I didn't know I had it.
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Loose blood in the pelvis.
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Scarring on the colon from the endometriosis.
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The ovaries were trash.
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Everything left.
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I had to lose all of it.
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And afterwards, I really was just as worse as ever in terms of my mental fatigue, really having a serious time focusing on.
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and concentrating and I was pretty much just kind of in a daze on the couch.
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I'm going to endocrinologist because I don't have ovaries so I get like you got to fix me up so I feel better after the surgery and he's like you look fine your tests are good you look beautiful I'm going to send you to my sleep doctor friend in the sleep lab experience where they wire you up and watch how your brain is doing and your legs and arms are moving around found that my brain was waking up
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29 times every hour in the five or six hours that I was supposedly asleep, I was really mostly up the whole time and too tired to know.
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I never knew that I was getting no sleep until that sleep study.
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So now there became this emergency of why, how, you know, the sleep doctors are giving me trying different drugs, which do nothing.
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And the only diet I hadn't tried is the kiwi diet, which has a lot of oxalate crystals in it, which I didn't know, the kiwi.
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And it forces like, you know, bowel movement.
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So it's for someone like me who's constipated and looks like she has SIBO, I thought, well, this must be SIBO causing endotoxemia, which is the only explanation in the literature.
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When you can't sleep, that's a toxic brain.
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And the main thing that I could find in the medical literature was endotoxemia.
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So it had to be dysbiosis and SIBO.
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So I'm doing a kiwi diet and boy, that was not good.
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Because within about six weeks, I went to my first ancestral health conference that year.
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That was 2013.
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I was getting more and more stiff and having trouble sleeping again and just not feeling good.
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It wasn't helping with the sleep at all.
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In fact, it was getting worse.
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So about six weeks, I'm eating a couple of kiwi every day.
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I was becoming like 80 years old in yoga class.
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I couldn't do my poses, which I've been doing for years.
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My arthritis was coming back.
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The Kiwi experiment happened after my oxalate consciousness came on.
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See, Joanne at the Volver Pain Foundation has done us a great service of having foods tested for oxalate content, which nutrition science hasn't bothered to do.
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They don't have good tables.
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The dietitians do not have good tables that come from themselves.
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If they do, it's a big hidden secret.
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And those of us who used to look up food data in government tables don't have access to it.
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putting oxalates back into my diet brought back all my lifetime problems and it made me much worse.
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So this is a big revelation that my longtime arthritis, which started when I was 12, was from my healthy diet.
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For the person who's hearing this for the first time, can you share what exactly is an oxalate and why does the amount we're consuming matter?
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Oxalate is a tiny chemical that's all over nature.
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It's even in polluted air.
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It's in the soil.
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Plants make it.
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It starts as oxalic acid, which is this ionic acid.
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It's only two carbons.
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It has four oxygens on it, very heavy oxygen.
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It almost looks like two carbon dioxide molecules.
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Uber tiny, can get anywhere.
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It has a negative charge and then drops one of them, one of the protons that has a double negative charge, which makes it a great.
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scale remover.
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We use it in industry as a cleaner.
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We remove all kinds of iron stains, calcium stains, and mineral stains that hold stains in wood, leather.
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We remove rust from engines and use it in industrial ways on fabric.
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And it's amazing.
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You can really clean all the rust spots off your patio with oxalic acid.
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You can buy an oxalic acid cleaner to clean your deck and so on because it's a great stripper of
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scale.
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And so what you're doing when you're eating a lot of oxalic acid is you're losing calcium and minerals like magnesium and iron.
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Which is thus the arthroitic pain or joint pains, all that.
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That's fascinating.
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But is the problem that the food contains oxalates or is the bigger issue how frequently and how much of them people are eating?
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It's always dose makes the poison.
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This is not a sensitivity, not an allergy.
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In all cases of toxicity, this is a toxicity problem.
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It's always about dose.
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And it turns out that the science suggests that the human kidneys and the body, because the kidneys is the main way the body tries to remove this after it gets into your system, is the equivalent of
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About, I would say, a quarter or a fifth of a spinach salad.
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It's really about five to eight spinach leaves is your daily capacity for eating oxalate.
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So anything more than that is exceeding it.
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Yeah, anyone that's not only eating meat basically is exceeding it daily.
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Pretty easily.
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Yeah.
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Do you think this modern wellness culture is really emphasizing spinach and smoothies and cruciferous vegetables and all these things that we label as healthy, but in many ways what you're sharing is like it's not as clear-cut.
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It's not black and white.
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There's a lot of more subtlety to it.
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Right.
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Well, there's a lot of blindness to it.
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We've been studying oxalic acid since the late 1700s.
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We were studying poisoning by oxalic acid in the early 1800s.
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There was a lot of accidental deaths and great concern that this would be easily used as a murder weapon.
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And so there was early studies done.
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One of the first real experimental study on the toxicity of oxalate was published in 1823.
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Oh, so it's been around a while.
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It's been around a long time.
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And that's the sad part.
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That's what's really maddening, honestly, because by the 1840s, we had a diagnosis that you could do this dietarily to yourself.
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Because in the UK, there was a great fad for rhubarb.
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They were forcing rhubarb in greenhouses using horse poop so you could have rhubarb in time for Christmas.
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And people who could afford treats were particularly interested in them during the holidays.
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And some people would get very sick.
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And they were usually the fellow doctors.
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Like,
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intellectuals, friends they knew each other who would come into each other as patients and be
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super sick and they would see huge changes in personality.
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This is this neurosis behavior, this anxiety, this anticipation of doom and intestinal obstruction and pains and things like this.
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And so they knew there was a dietary poisoning condition from oxalates and gave it a name.
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And it was a known thing until about the time blood tests became standard about a hundred years later in the,
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Around the 1940s, we started saying, yeah, we don't care what the patient has to say.
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We only care what their blood has to say.
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And that conveniently helped us relegate it just to kidney stones.
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And since about the 1950s and 60s, most of the funding looking at oxalic acids and oxalates problem in our health is strictly kidney stone research.
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If somebody wanted to do the oxalate audit that you recommend, what exactly should they look for in a normal day of eating?
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Things that you might be overeating that can contribute to long-term health problems are the nuts, like almonds, cashews, and peanuts being the primary ones.
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The top greens are really just three or four greens, and that is Swiss chard, beet green, spinach, and sorrel.
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Sorrel is not a common one, but the others are very common and overused.
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And even in baby foods, there's things like the pseudo grains like quinoa and taff, chia seeds and hemp seeds.
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Sweet potatoes, my personal hero.
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Beets.
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And then, you know, blackberries.
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The fruits aren't too bad.
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Plantains are not great.
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And bran is another problem.
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What foods tend to surprise people the most when they realize how much oxalate they're getting?
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Definitely the spinach and chard and the almonds.
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What about chocolate?
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Isn't chocolate high in oxalate?
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Oh, chocolate.
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Yes.
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Chocolate.
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And chocolate, you know...
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I hate to talk people out of this fantasy, but we're being told chocolate is medicine and it's so great.
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Chocolate is loaded with cadmium, lead, theobromide, and oxalate.
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And those people who get off of it for the sake of their oxalate problems and their health, when they go back to it, they're like, this stuff is kind of waxy and bitter.
264
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But we're in this mentality right now that chocolate is the bomb because it's supposed to be so healthy.
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And
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That's true with air.
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Like I thought my sweet potatoes were so good for me.
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They were so hypoallergenic and I was becoming so allergic to things.
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And, you know, so they had to be a safe food because it doesn't cause allergies.
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This ignorance about the fact that oxalic acid is fundamentally poisonous to us and it's easy to overdo it has us...
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just completely oblivious to the possibility.
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So it's a miracle that I could put it together, that oxalate was the basis of a lifetime of health problems.
273
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And it's also a miracle that the body recovers from it.
274
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I can now run barefoot.
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I spent 30 years not being able to go barefoot at all, not even for 10 minutes at the kitchen sink, and now I can run on harsh pavement
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with no problems at all.
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I'm almost 63.
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I believe that the low oxalate diet is the fountain of youth.
279
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High oxalate diet is likely to be the major contributor to everything you think of as aging.
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Arthritis, dementia, vision loss, hearing loss, tooth loss, osteoporosis, renal failure, organ failure, vascular problems, maybe even cancer.
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All of it.
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And if you can just stop poisoning yourself on a day-to-day basis and just relieve your body of that toxicity, the aging just kind of just slows way down.
283
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Did you find that you also kind of de-aged?
284
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Well, in my 20s and 30s, I felt like I was 80.
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I had bad arthritis.
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I was achy, fatigued, having trouble doing things, getting things done.
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It was hard.
288
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I taught yoga to 80-something-year-olds in a fancy retirement community because they were my peeps.
289
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I could relate to that.
290
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Now, I'm in my early 60s.
291
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If someone asked me if I didn't know my age, I'd probably guess I was like 43, right?
292
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Not 80.
293
00:19:53.081 --> 00:19:56.543
You know, I'm still, you know, getting the look of an 80-year-old.
294
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I'm still getting gray, but I don't feel like I'm aging anymore at all.
295
00:20:02.408 --> 00:20:03.329
Yeah, and that's important.
296
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How we feel is really important.
297
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So it's more than how we feel, though.
298
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Let me just mention this.
299
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I had osteopenia at 48 years old.
300
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I now have such hard bones that very hard fall on ice in December did nothing to
301
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No contusions, no bruises, no bone problems whatsoever.
302
00:20:20.972 --> 00:20:28.234
And anyone else who took those that fall at age 62, like I did, would have broken something.
303
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And I didn't.
304
00:20:29.214 --> 00:20:35.735
But millions of people are obviously they're eating spinach, almonds, sweet potatoes, chocolate without obvious problems.
305
00:20:36.295 --> 00:20:40.996
So why are some people able to handle these foods while others like yourself may struggle?
306
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Or is everyone struggling?
307
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Yeah.
308
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Well, I think a little of both.
309
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I think some people tolerate it better, longer.
310
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And my guess, based on my observations with my clients, is that if you had heavy exposure in utero and you had antibiotics as a baby and had early exposure to high-oxalate foods, you're more likely to get really sick on it than if you just started off as a kid who ate Skittles and peanut butter occasionally and then started developing the potato habit later or whatever.
311
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So I think some of it is like the timing of the exposure as well as the intensity or the amount of it.
312
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Leaky gut is a big issue.
313
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So if something, if you do something that messes with your gut, it might be a drug constant.
314
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I was put on a lot of NSAIDs, but I think it was too late by then.
315
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I was, for my foot problem, for five years, I was on 3,600 milligrams of ibuprofen.
316
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That did not help.
317
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No, that destroys your gut, right?
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Yeah.
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And with oxalate, you go from about a 10% to 15% absorption rate when you're kind of healthy to a 50% to 60% absorption rate with leaky gut.
320
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So you end up five timesing at least how much oxalate's in your bloodstream and your kidneys and your tissues are dealing with when you have an inflamed gut.
321
00:21:59.054 --> 00:22:00.435
And that vegetarian diet...
322
00:22:01.669 --> 00:22:07.070
I was eating too many beans, not cooked properly, really set me up for like super poison.
323
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So there's that.
324
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So there's lots of those factors.
325
00:22:09.471 --> 00:22:18.873
And then there's some genetic factors and other things we haven't fully identified with how well we excrete oxalate or how well we sequester it.
326
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I think some people can hold it in their tissues in ways and keep it quieter because their immune system is like, we don't need to bother with those crystals forming in that shoulder joint or that neck or in that,
327
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jaw or in those teeth, we'll just leave them alone so there won't be any symptoms.
328
00:22:33.816 --> 00:22:46.278
So you can build up a toxic debt in your thyroid gland, in your pancreas, in your brain, and maybe not have all the arthritis and the fatigue and the things I was struggling with right away.
329
00:22:46.698 --> 00:22:55.440
But if you go and like, okay, I'm going to turn 60, I'm going to get really healthy, I'm going to start eating keto and lose some weight and add some spinach salads, you do that.
330
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You could suddenly go from pretty awesome to trying to get awesomer to suddenly really sick.
331
00:23:03.604 --> 00:23:13.789
You've shared some of the symptoms, but what symptoms should someone kind of be aware of that are potentially being caused by the oxalates they're eating?
332
00:23:14.369 --> 00:23:23.974
If you have bladder symptoms, like you're getting up at night to pee more than once, if you run into the bathroom too much, you have a lot of urine in the morning, or just like peeing tiny amounts, I'm like, why am I going to pee?
333
00:23:24.494 --> 00:23:25.775
Migraines, headaches...
334
00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:43.674
anxiety, depression, mood swings, lack of enthusiasm for things, kind of flat affect, nightmares, any kind of digestive problems like heartburn, bloating, IBSC, kind of diarrhea, constipation cycles, reflux.
335
00:23:44.035 --> 00:23:51.322
Of course, kidney stones are a classic one and arthritis and aches and pains, random aches and pains.
336
00:23:51.979 --> 00:23:54.340
But a lot of these symptoms are tied to other things.
337
00:23:54.380 --> 00:24:00.284
Like, I mean, many of the ones you just mentioned are tied to mold exposure or to even Lyme sometimes, right?
338
00:24:02.345 --> 00:24:15.953
So is the philosophy more like, okay, yes, there could be another outlying issue, but oxalates is just a good default to just start removing from your diet when you're showing these symptoms.
339
00:24:17.332 --> 00:24:21.976
Well, there are like foundational core causative issues.
340
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And toxicity and deficiency are the two big core foundational issues that degenerate our health.
341
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Oxalate is a toxin that causes deficiency.
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Those infections are just secondary to a system that is too malnourished or toxic to prevent infection.
343
00:24:41.752 --> 00:24:46.415
So in the case of oxalate, oxalate messes up your immune cell function right after a meal.
344
00:24:47.156 --> 00:24:51.597
Within an hour of eating your spinach, your immune cells can no longer fight infection.
345
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So a lot of people with oxalate toxicity end up with chronic infections.
346
00:24:55.739 --> 00:24:59.040
I used to have a sinus infection every year right around New Year's Eve.
347
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:04.341
Every New Year's Eve was ruined from age 17 to 49.
348
00:25:05.061 --> 00:25:07.062
Once I started this diet, I no longer have those.
349
00:25:07.518 --> 00:25:10.180
I used to get yeast infections when I was a younger woman.
350
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:11.400
Never get those.
351
00:25:12.261 --> 00:25:14.122
I've only had one bladder infection in my life.
352
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That was when I was eating high oxalate foods.
353
00:25:16.383 --> 00:25:28.530
So, you know, this is a big issue now in holistic health and healing where everybody's supposedly got, you know, parasites and mold and limes and all this.
354
00:25:29.307 --> 00:25:37.215
And I'm saying you've got some foundational thing that allowed those diseases to get into your system and stay there and your system wasn't strong enough to fight them.
355
00:25:37.396 --> 00:25:39.057
And this is probably it.
356
00:25:39.858 --> 00:25:40.559
Interesting.
357
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:45.184
Is there a test that can tell people if they're high in oxalates?
358
00:25:46.330 --> 00:25:47.211
Wouldn't that be nice?
359
00:25:48.412 --> 00:25:50.213
But that's why we don't know about it.
360
00:25:50.453 --> 00:25:52.595
Like we only treat what we can test.
361
00:25:53.015 --> 00:25:53.235
Yeah.
362
00:25:53.355 --> 00:25:58.479
So like with joint pain, we say gout is uric acid because we have a drug for that.
363
00:25:58.499 --> 00:26:04.083
That's the other thing we're willing to test for and treat is because we have a remedy we can sell you.
364
00:26:04.163 --> 00:26:09.307
So if we can sell you the remedy and we can test for it, then we've got this case and we've got a real business model.
365
00:26:09.727 --> 00:26:11.689
There's no business model with oxalate.
366
00:26:11.709 --> 00:26:15.792
That's why I'm the only one talking about it because I'm willing to live on fumes and no one else is.
367
00:26:16.072 --> 00:26:18.113
Well, if anything, it's a negative basis model, right?
368
00:26:18.133 --> 00:26:20.754
Because you're telling people don't eat the spinach, don't buy these things.
369
00:26:20.814 --> 00:26:23.835
And so those industries are like, oh, you know.
370
00:26:24.035 --> 00:26:24.376
Yeah.
371
00:26:24.396 --> 00:26:24.696
Yeah.
372
00:26:24.956 --> 00:26:29.558
Luckily, I haven't needed a Bulletproof vest because the spinach mafia has not mowed me down yet.
373
00:26:30.555 --> 00:26:35.700
If coffee had been high in Oxlade, I'd probably be dead already just from the random coffee drinker.
374
00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:46.389
Sally, I know you're somewhat joking, but actually – So I know someone that was in the mushroom business, and there was a mushroom mafia.
375
00:26:46.429 --> 00:26:54.476
They got closed down because they were doing so well that they were impeding on the bigger giant, and they actually got kind of like –
376
00:26:55.857 --> 00:26:57.660
hit on the hand by this giant.
377
00:26:57.760 --> 00:27:03.088
And so I'm like, if it exists in the mushroom business, it's got to exist in all the other industries.
378
00:27:03.489 --> 00:27:03.709
Yeah.
379
00:27:03.729 --> 00:27:06.193
There's actually a whole commodity training on spinach seeds.
380
00:27:07.114 --> 00:27:07.335
Wow.
381
00:27:08.276 --> 00:27:08.476
Yeah.
382
00:27:08.537 --> 00:27:10.640
You can buy and sell spinach seeds and make money on that.
383
00:27:11.870 --> 00:27:12.711
I have a gift for you.
384
00:27:12.751 --> 00:27:22.360
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385
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:29.967
See, these are the foods that built strong and resilient people for generations, and this guide will help bring them back into your life.
386
00:27:30.287 --> 00:27:36.353
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387
00:27:36.493 --> 00:27:42.174
And all 24 pages of it are available for download for free via the link in the description.
388
00:27:42.314 --> 00:27:45.255
Look, start feeding your body what it really needs.
389
00:27:45.635 --> 00:27:46.355
You deserve it.
390
00:27:48.196 --> 00:27:50.976
Let's talk about the whole oxalate dumping.
391
00:27:51.056 --> 00:27:55.197
So someone's hearing this, they're like, okay, I want to start cutting out these high oxalate foods.
392
00:27:55.658 --> 00:27:59.999
But there is something called oxalate dumping where people may feel worse after lowering oxalates.
393
00:28:00.019 --> 00:28:01.819
So what's going on there?
394
00:28:02.947 --> 00:28:21.363
Yeah, this is another thing that science hasn't bothered to notice because science hasn't bothered to study what does happen to you if you've been on a high-oxalate diet for a long time or been in one of these intense diets that's really poisoning you fast and then you suddenly stop doing it because they really have never been able to teach a patient how to truly do a low-oxalate diet.
395
00:28:21.723 --> 00:28:30.711
So when you have kidney stones and they finally get around to testing you for oxalates and they finally say, you know, probably you should stop with the chocolate and the spinach and cut back on your potatoes,
396
00:28:31.331 --> 00:28:41.174
They're not giving them a complete list, and they're not really teaching them how to get under, say, 80 or 60 milligrams of oxalate a day so that they don't really see it.
397
00:28:41.194 --> 00:28:54.158
And, of course, in the way we practice medicine now is just blood tests, not the patient saying, Hey, my urine is burning, and I've just pooped out crystals, and I have crystals coming out of my beard and out of my temple and the head.
398
00:28:55.478 --> 00:29:10.409
The doctor's not listening to that, but that's what we're experiencing in this community, which is tens of thousands of people who have come to this, started this diet, and done it correctly because we're able to offer good data that's pretty fairly complete.
399
00:29:10.529 --> 00:29:11.410
Like, I have a whole...
400
00:29:12.130 --> 00:29:18.115
data companion to help people really get that, but there's plenty in this book, to have you do it correctly.
401
00:29:18.175 --> 00:29:29.964
And when you finally stop adding oxalic acid to your bloodstream after every meal, day in, day out, the body's like, oh, look, yay, we can clean up the kidneys.
402
00:29:30.004 --> 00:29:37.530
And you can start removing calcium oxalate deposits from the kidneys, whether it's nephrocalcinosis or kidney stones.
403
00:29:38.491 --> 00:29:40.713
We help with that with some calcium and lemon juice
404
00:29:41.731 --> 00:29:48.013
And then you can start removing it from your teeth and jaw and maybe your thyroid gland, maybe, and your joints and tissues.
405
00:29:48.053 --> 00:29:53.915
And what we see is people peeing out massive amounts of cloudy urine, saving it in a jar.
406
00:29:54.516 --> 00:30:01.478
I just talked to Dr. Peter Martin, and he was showing me that this sediment in this woman's urine, he went, had it.
407
00:30:01.698 --> 00:30:11.225
tested at the lab and confirmed that it's calcium oxalate crystals coming out in massive amounts, but we see it out of other orifices as well, including the skin.
408
00:30:12.265 --> 00:30:26.015
And this is pretty dangerous stuff because if you're taking oxalic acid crystals from tissues, trying to burn them down back into oxalic acid, that's a lot of inflammation work that has potential symptoms associated with it.
409
00:30:26.375 --> 00:30:30.178
Put oxalic acid back in the bloodstream, you're messing around with your calcium
410
00:30:30.918 --> 00:30:43.933
ion level in your blood, potentially creating hypocalcemia, which can create arrhythmias, severe hypertension, and it looks like you're having a heart attack or a stroke and you end up in the hospital with electrolyte problems.
411
00:30:43.974 --> 00:30:45.375
It only lasts a couple hours.
412
00:30:45.756 --> 00:30:51.002
By the time you've gotten to see the doctor, things are settling down and they give you some saline and send you on your way.
413
00:30:51.322 --> 00:30:56.405
But it's pretty scary that you could be re-poisoning yourself from the inside.
414
00:30:56.425 --> 00:30:58.026
So it's very important to manage that.
415
00:30:58.767 --> 00:31:06.892
But if you start on a meat-based diet that gets rid of plant foods, you've eliminated all your oxalates because all the oxalates are in the plants.
416
00:31:07.572 --> 00:31:09.613
And now you're doing this experiment on yourself.
417
00:31:09.633 --> 00:31:13.236
You went from probably a high-oxalate diet to practically zero-oxalate.
418
00:31:13.816 --> 00:31:26.583
At some point, maybe not right away, some people start feeling sick right away, at some point you may start to see the cloudy urine, bad sleep, getting up at night, having to run to the bathroom, getting aches and pains, getting mood changes.
419
00:31:26.623 --> 00:31:32.466
These can all be signs of this oxalate clearing that can get so extreme it gets into what we call a dump.
420
00:31:32.726 --> 00:31:34.667
It's like coming out.
421
00:31:35.190 --> 00:31:37.493
So let's just say you go, the pendulum goes the other way.
422
00:31:37.533 --> 00:31:39.777
Now you're just going carnivore.
423
00:31:39.797 --> 00:31:41.379
You're just eating animal protein.
424
00:31:42.040 --> 00:31:45.485
Can't that then also produce its own problems as well down the road?
425
00:31:45.505 --> 00:31:51.173
Don't you work with a lot of clients who have had issues from being on those diets too long?
426
00:31:51.933 --> 00:31:58.837
At some point, there is this oxalate clearing problem, which creates more electrolyte problems.
427
00:31:58.857 --> 00:32:03.880
The meat-only diet and the ketones of that can create electrolyte stress.
428
00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:08.983
The high-oxy diet we've been on in the past has caused us to be deficient in minerals generally.
429
00:32:09.003 --> 00:32:12.525
Then the dumping creates more loss of potassium.
430
00:32:13.162 --> 00:32:18.648
And more need for sodium to protect your kidneys, believe it or not, potassium, calcium, like crazy.
431
00:32:18.748 --> 00:32:24.294
And the carnivore diet does not address that, the need for the extra calcium and so on enough.
432
00:32:24.895 --> 00:32:32.624
And also in my group of people who come to me, many of them are severely in trouble with too little carbohydrates.
433
00:32:32.784 --> 00:32:32.884
Yeah.
434
00:32:33.384 --> 00:32:35.084
And they're really struggling with that.
435
00:32:35.144 --> 00:32:45.846
And I think the no-carbohydrate sometimes suppresses that oxalate clearing response that the body's energy level is so low that some people stay on carnivore for a long time and don't experience the oxalate dumping.
436
00:32:46.286 --> 00:32:50.007
And I think that's the lack of calcium and the lack of carbohydrates.
437
00:32:50.087 --> 00:33:00.189
And sometimes we add in the calcium, which is much needed, and the carbohydrates, and you get more of the oxalate clearing, which is just a sign the body's getting the nutrients it needs.
438
00:33:00.649 --> 00:33:11.032
So oftentimes I have to teach folks who are not doing well on a full carnivore diet how to carefully regain their glycemic sensibilities.
439
00:33:11.112 --> 00:33:16.914
Because you really create kind of an insulin-resistant kind of problem with carbs when you don't eat them.
440
00:33:17.314 --> 00:33:24.456
It just takes, for some of us, six weeks and suddenly we're less tolerant to carbs because our system isn't used to handling them anymore.
441
00:33:24.856 --> 00:33:28.897
So it takes about six months to correct that glycemic sensation.
442
00:33:29.737 --> 00:33:56.879
inability to we really are meant to be able to handle all the kinds of foods all the macronutrients and be well keep even blood sugar but that is not the case for a lot of people who've been on the well and and so much of the diet culture these days is is really emphasizing such extremities right so in many ways i don't think we as humans are designed for such isolated diets you know we're we're
443
00:33:57.499 --> 00:34:06.943
omnivores were opportunistic, you know, like whatever was food we would find and try to, you know, get calories from.
444
00:34:06.983 --> 00:34:15.467
So I don't think we were ever like, oh, I'm going to only eat the ribeye off this cow or whatever we killed because I don't eat the other parts or, you know what I
445
00:34:17.693 --> 00:34:19.494
we're way more opportunistic about that.
446
00:34:19.594 --> 00:34:25.437
And honestly, I don't want someone hearing this episode to go home tonight and just throw away everything in their kitchen.
447
00:34:25.497 --> 00:34:25.657
Right.
448
00:34:25.697 --> 00:34:35.142
So what, what's the, let's first identify before we go into a lot of the solutions, what's the biggest mistake people make after first learning about oxalates?
449
00:34:36.422 --> 00:34:37.883
Usually this abrupt mistake,
450
00:34:38.942 --> 00:34:40.744
elimination of oxygen.
451
00:34:41.405 --> 00:34:44.247
Actually, reading my book is a great entry to the carnivore diet.
452
00:34:44.267 --> 00:34:50.053
Many people have said, because of your book, I just went carnivore because I don't want to bother with learning which vegetables are okay.
453
00:34:50.073 --> 00:34:53.837
Because it's very confusing in the beginning, like, oh, can I have carrots or not?
454
00:34:53.857 --> 00:34:54.918
Because carrots are kind of like
455
00:34:55.314 --> 00:34:56.515
Small portions, fine.
456
00:34:56.535 --> 00:34:58.316
Just don't live on them and juice them all the time.
457
00:34:58.676 --> 00:35:02.739
You know, like there's a lot of gray areas, a lot of things to learn.
458
00:35:02.759 --> 00:35:03.940
And that is just so annoying.
459
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:06.722
We just want a real simple black and white story.
460
00:35:07.262 --> 00:35:09.404
Sugar's bad, meat's good.
461
00:35:09.544 --> 00:35:10.885
That's a good enough story for me.
462
00:35:11.485 --> 00:35:12.266
It's not like that.
463
00:35:12.646 --> 00:35:15.528
Vegetables are bad, beets good, vice versa, beets bad.
464
00:35:15.568 --> 00:35:16.869
But like we love that.
465
00:35:17.489 --> 00:35:21.953
So the tendency is, well, I'll just go on a carnivore diet, which is okay.
466
00:35:21.993 --> 00:35:25.055
It's a nice elimination diet if you have a lot of food sensitivities.
467
00:35:25.095 --> 00:35:26.916
It can be quite useful.
468
00:35:26.956 --> 00:35:27.637
I kind of like it.
469
00:35:27.697 --> 00:35:34.542
But it's too abrupt if you've been on a hyoxalute diet to eliminate all that keto muffins and
470
00:35:35.402 --> 00:35:41.746
almond pancakes and sweet potato this smothered in chocolate and spinach this and that.
471
00:35:41.766 --> 00:35:49.811
It's like these smoothies that are loaded with all these high-oxalate ingredients, including turmeric, like you're going to throw in all the kitchen sink of high-oxalate food.
472
00:35:50.632 --> 00:35:52.473
You'd be better off like just
473
00:35:53.372 --> 00:36:02.518
cutting that down to a quarter of a smoothie for a while, and then figuring out how else to eat a real breakfast again because smoothies have become this kind of sippy cup life.
474
00:36:02.578 --> 00:36:07.362
I'll make something I can grab and go run out and do stuff in the car or whatever, go to work.
475
00:36:08.302 --> 00:36:11.865
So it might be like, how do I reconstruct a real breakfast again?
476
00:36:11.885 --> 00:36:12.305
It's crazy.
477
00:36:12.845 --> 00:36:21.028
So it's this nice process that you can take months doing so that more gradual implementation is easier to think through.
478
00:36:21.068 --> 00:36:22.568
You don't have to learn it all now.
479
00:36:23.429 --> 00:36:29.551
And ultimately easier to sustain and probably a lot easier on your body as well.
480
00:36:29.851 --> 00:36:38.737
So if someone were to not go full carnivore, but to kind of ease in, really kind of how you recommend, which is just swapping out, right?
481
00:36:39.238 --> 00:36:41.519
High oxalate foods with lower.
482
00:36:42.120 --> 00:36:44.241
So what would be a swap for common foods?
483
00:36:44.261 --> 00:36:45.542
Like, let's say spinach.
484
00:36:45.582 --> 00:36:46.803
What's a good swap for spinach?
485
00:36:46.823 --> 00:36:46.943
Yeah.
486
00:36:48.188 --> 00:36:49.890
All the lettuces are great.
487
00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:53.893
Romaine, leaf lettuce, and then there's watercress and arugula.
488
00:36:54.354 --> 00:36:57.557
Yeah, a majority of the green leafies are fine.
489
00:36:57.657 --> 00:36:59.298
It's really just three bad ones.
490
00:37:00.499 --> 00:37:02.681
And now the grocery store does give you the option.
491
00:37:02.741 --> 00:37:08.707
If you like those pre-done salad mixes or whatever, you can get a romaine-based salad mix pretty easily.
492
00:37:08.927 --> 00:37:09.228
Yes.
493
00:37:09.688 --> 00:37:13.413
Surprisingly, though, a lot of them have spinach, which is fascinating.
494
00:37:14.194 --> 00:37:14.855
They really do.
495
00:37:14.895 --> 00:37:16.317
Like it won't say anything.
496
00:37:16.337 --> 00:37:21.303
It will make it sound like it's salad greens, but then you'll look in there and it's all baby spinach, you know, mixing.
497
00:37:21.323 --> 00:37:26.170
I don't know if it's because it's cheap or I don't know, or maybe it's a little more robust.
498
00:37:26.747 --> 00:37:27.568
It's popular.
499
00:37:27.668 --> 00:37:29.409
And I think there's a lot of it on the market.
500
00:37:29.489 --> 00:37:34.573
I think that whatever is available, they'll put it in there based on what's available.
501
00:37:34.613 --> 00:37:36.115
It's a seasonal thing.
502
00:37:36.135 --> 00:37:44.381
And even that we have California and Mexico and Texas and Florida and everybody trying to help out and all the greenhouses in Canada all contributing to your salad bowl.
503
00:37:44.962 --> 00:37:46.943
There's still some of that going on.
504
00:37:46.983 --> 00:37:51.767
But now I'm noticing, I've been looking in the grocery store at these packages.
505
00:37:51.827 --> 00:37:53.769
Most people are buying these prepackaged mixes.
506
00:37:53.789 --> 00:37:53.909
Yeah.
507
00:37:54.389 --> 00:38:02.815
And they do tell you what's in there, but they also have the caveat of the amounts and so on are going to vary from time to time.
508
00:38:03.435 --> 00:38:14.102
But I am noticing that you can get some spinach free and Swiss chard free because they love the Swiss chard and beet greens in a lot of Texas because it has a cute little red vein and it's very pretty.
509
00:38:14.822 --> 00:38:16.463
But that's easy to identify.
510
00:38:16.543 --> 00:38:20.524
And if you're just getting started off, a mixture that has a little bit of that is okay.
511
00:38:20.564 --> 00:38:25.125
You want maybe five or six spinach leaves in your salad in the beginning anyway.
512
00:38:26.326 --> 00:38:28.226
What about for sweet potatoes?
513
00:38:28.726 --> 00:38:29.707
What's the swap there?
514
00:38:30.307 --> 00:38:35.368
I would say the winter squashes like butternut and other winter squashes work great.
515
00:38:35.388 --> 00:38:41.310
They're orange and they're starchy and they take butter and salt just as well as a sweet potato.
516
00:38:41.832 --> 00:38:46.114
You mentioned nuts earlier, almonds, obviously, but you mentioned a bunch of nuts.
517
00:38:46.514 --> 00:38:51.677
Are seeds better or does sprouting the nuts do anything?
518
00:38:53.198 --> 00:38:53.918
Great questions.
519
00:38:54.399 --> 00:38:56.059
Most of the seeds are terrible too.
520
00:38:56.100 --> 00:39:00.502
The one seed that's really wonderful in terms of oxide content is the pumpkin seed.
521
00:39:00.902 --> 00:39:03.383
And you can buy them pre-salted and pre-sprouted.
522
00:39:03.844 --> 00:39:05.084
The Go Raw brand is that way.
523
00:39:05.124 --> 00:39:07.986
So that's a good choice if your stomach can still handle seeds.
524
00:39:08.366 --> 00:39:10.207
I think all seeds tend to have some...
525
00:39:11.027 --> 00:39:33.563
gut irritating potential sunflower seeds aren't too bad but otherwise seeds are not so great and that's why several spices aren't good kind of high and you want to kind of moderate how much you're using of say cumin cut back on you know instead of half teaspoon use an eighth of a teaspoon you're good black pepper is a seed that's pretty high in oxalated you can choose white pepper that's a nice easy swap too
526
00:39:34.252 --> 00:39:38.576
we were talking about the animal meats, uh, eggs, dairy, organ meats.
527
00:39:38.716 --> 00:39:49.606
What are those foods providing that someone relying on, you know, heavily modern super foods, you know, like we've been discussing what those foods may be missing.
528
00:39:50.437 --> 00:39:58.647
One of the things that makes us more sensitive, you might say, less tolerant of the oxalate in these foods, it's not just we're eating more of them, which we are.
529
00:39:58.667 --> 00:40:00.350
And many of them are novel.
530
00:40:00.410 --> 00:40:05.096
In the last 100 years, people have adopted the chocolate and the spinach and the...
531
00:40:07.398 --> 00:40:08.279
peanut butter and so on.
532
00:40:08.299 --> 00:40:09.619
It's pretty new behavior.
533
00:40:09.640 --> 00:40:35.675
But we used to rely on dairy in the nutrition field as this safeguard food, that if people ate dairy every day and had a glass of milk with meals, it was really prescribed to the human race from American dietitians to do that and have some cheese for snack and have milk every meal to protect you from this calcium deficiency problem and mineral deficiency problem and protect you from things like the oxalates.
534
00:40:36.213 --> 00:40:38.794
and the phytates that are grabbing all that calcium.
535
00:40:38.814 --> 00:40:46.216
So you have to get lots of extra calcium and you need it in dairy because it's the only food that's so high in calcium.
536
00:40:46.236 --> 00:40:52.258
So, but what's been happening the last 30 years is less and less people feel that dairy is agreeing with them.
537
00:40:52.778 --> 00:40:55.119
And so they're not using it like they used to.
538
00:40:55.639 --> 00:40:57.260
And even babies are being given...
539
00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:08.765
non-nutritive things that are high oxalate like almond milk instead of a very nutritious food like milk, which has all kinds of vitamins and minerals in a pretty bioavailable place.
540
00:41:08.825 --> 00:41:15.128
So that's an issue because I think it's very true that a lot of people don't do well on dairy, even A2 raw and so on.
541
00:41:16.429 --> 00:41:24.153
And I think that's probably because some of the issues with the combination of the processed foods and the high oxalate foods that we've
542
00:41:25.484 --> 00:41:27.585
changed our microbiome with all the drugs.
543
00:41:28.106 --> 00:41:40.032
We have changed the gut health with the emulsifiers and the processed foods and with the high oxalate foods that we're using like peanut butter, chocolate, and potatoes, which everybody grows up on in Western culture.
544
00:41:41.112 --> 00:41:45.815
So those things are putting us at risk for the high oxalate problem.
545
00:41:46.833 --> 00:41:58.399
And if eggs are a wonderful food, the egg yolk is great for someone who has terrible digestion because the egg yolk is so readily digested, especially if it's runny or even raw.
546
00:41:59.019 --> 00:42:05.983
And you can get all kinds of vitamin A and other vitamins and proteins that are complete out of an egg yolk.
547
00:42:06.623 --> 00:42:08.144
And that's very good and soothing.
548
00:42:08.184 --> 00:42:08.764
But again...
549
00:42:09.965 --> 00:42:13.668
vaccines like the MMR vaccine is cultured in egg.
550
00:42:13.968 --> 00:42:25.297
And if you have so many exposures to the MMR, because you need it again for sixth grade and again for college and a grad for grad school, or again to go to Europe or something, you could end up with an egg allergy from that or whatever reason.
551
00:42:26.117 --> 00:42:32.202
So we have, you know, more and more people who are having to pick and choose because of food sensitivities.
552
00:42:32.262 --> 00:42:36.585
And that's a sign of gut health problems and also an overactive immune system.
553
00:42:37.346 --> 00:42:38.827
What about the argument that
554
00:42:40.513 --> 00:42:46.318
milk from an animal is really, you know, there's no other species that really does milk beyond a certain age.
555
00:42:46.458 --> 00:42:56.707
So, so what about that argument of, of just that milk is made really for young animals or babies and that beyond that we shouldn't be eating it.
556
00:42:56.767 --> 00:43:00.290
And then some people would argue, well, that's why so many people are sensitive to it.
557
00:43:02.452 --> 00:43:05.913
Well, you mentioned earlier that we are omnivores.
558
00:43:05.973 --> 00:43:15.377
We're also clever in that we developed knives and spears and other ways to be able to hunt and traps.
559
00:43:15.557 --> 00:43:17.678
All of that wasn't natural to us.
560
00:43:17.758 --> 00:43:18.919
We had to invent it.
561
00:43:19.539 --> 00:43:21.520
We've invented the food supply in general.
562
00:43:21.540 --> 00:43:23.641
The entire produce department is an invention.
563
00:43:24.561 --> 00:43:27.563
And so the dairying industry is a whole invention as well.
564
00:43:28.143 --> 00:43:31.385
So I don't know which inventions you want to throw out, which ones you want to keep.
565
00:43:31.885 --> 00:43:37.608
But I don't think the produce department is doing us any more favors than eating milk lifelong is.
566
00:43:37.648 --> 00:43:39.328
In fact, I think it's much worse.
567
00:43:40.249 --> 00:43:46.472
I think there have been cultures who have thrived, the Norwegians and so on, and northern cultures where...
568
00:43:47.635 --> 00:43:51.166
being able to dairy and fish and so on was critical to survival.
569
00:43:51.327 --> 00:43:51.928
And we have
570
00:43:54.036 --> 00:43:58.437
historical examples where dairy has been an important part of the diet for whatever reason.
571
00:43:59.157 --> 00:44:07.019
But nowadays, we're looking at a different situation with commercial production and who knows?
572
00:44:07.319 --> 00:44:09.000
There's so many variables going on.
573
00:44:09.620 --> 00:44:18.702
I think that we need that ancestral perspective of what we used to do and what we did during those million years before industry, where our
574
00:44:23.986 --> 00:44:27.146
crockery and simple foods, simple
575
00:44:28.467 --> 00:44:31.849
tools for food and learning fermentation.
576
00:44:32.249 --> 00:44:34.030
You know, we've been fermenting foods a long time.
577
00:44:35.011 --> 00:44:40.574
The newer technologies, you know, the newer that food technology, the more suspect it is.
578
00:44:41.034 --> 00:44:54.883
But the dairying technology, I think we've been, you know, in the Northern Africa, relying on herds of various ruminant animals and using their blood and their milk for food has been going on a long time.
579
00:44:54.923 --> 00:44:57.004
And some of those cultures have done very well on it.
580
00:44:58.805 --> 00:45:04.506
You know, sometimes I feel like the more we know, the more paralyzed we feel.
581
00:45:05.006 --> 00:45:08.027
There might be a lot of people listening to this kind of feeling like, well, now what do I eat?
582
00:45:08.507 --> 00:45:14.068
Low histamine diet has kind of presented itself in my household for different reasons.
583
00:45:14.448 --> 00:45:21.310
So it feels like you're either, if you're focusing on low oxalates, well, then you might be eating high histamine.
584
00:45:21.530 --> 00:45:25.430
Or if you're focusing on low histamine, you still might be getting high oxalates.
585
00:45:25.450 --> 00:45:27.891
So sometimes it feels like you just can't win.
586
00:45:28.542 --> 00:45:28.762
Yep.
587
00:45:29.782 --> 00:45:30.183
It does.
588
00:45:30.303 --> 00:45:40.186
Especially those of us who are oxalate poisoned, because an awful lot of people come to me with multiple food sensitivities and histamine issues and salicylate issue and this and that.
589
00:45:40.626 --> 00:45:41.847
But we find our way out of it.
590
00:45:41.907 --> 00:45:46.468
And through the low-oxalate eating, we regain our ability to handle aged foods.
591
00:45:46.629 --> 00:45:48.749
And a lot of these foods come back into the diet.
592
00:45:48.769 --> 00:45:52.611
And a lot of people who've been giving up wheat and dairy find they're fine on them now.
593
00:45:52.671 --> 00:45:52.891
And so
594
00:45:53.731 --> 00:46:00.854
Once we get into the core issues, we can start correcting the damage we've done to some degree with the gut health.
595
00:46:00.894 --> 00:46:13.058
I think this is a major factor in modern eating that whether it's oxalate, whether it's emulsifiers and bad food, whether it's drugs and antibiotics and so on, we have really messed with our gut health badly.
596
00:46:13.976 --> 00:46:21.759
And that's where histamine issues come in because it really is the gut's not able to break down the histamine and the system's getting overwhelmed by inflammation.
597
00:46:21.879 --> 00:46:26.922
So there's all these factors like oxalate poisoning that can create so much chronic inflammation.
598
00:46:27.322 --> 00:46:35.605
The mast cells are just having these little hissy fits and like drama attacks and releasing histamine and your system's getting overwhelmed with it.
599
00:46:36.205 --> 00:46:39.247
And so fundamentally, calming down the...
600
00:46:39.947 --> 00:46:50.874
Immune system means calming down the toxicity, calming down the problems in the gut, not overfeeding the gut microbiome, like too much fiber and too much prebiotics, you get more inflammation.
601
00:46:51.615 --> 00:46:54.277
And also learning relaxation and calm.
602
00:46:54.297 --> 00:46:56.018
We have a very stressed out culture.
603
00:46:56.538 --> 00:47:02.022
So if your head is busy being fearful of food and being fearful of life and stressed out and calm.
604
00:47:02.442 --> 00:47:07.827
worried about your performance and insecure, the mast cells know you're feeling endangered.
605
00:47:08.167 --> 00:47:15.733
The mast cells can hear you have these victim thoughts and this scary mind, and they're like on alert to help you out.
606
00:47:15.793 --> 00:47:17.694
So they literally can hear your thinking.
607
00:47:17.734 --> 00:47:28.483
So there's a whole piece about learning to chill, learning to have fun, learning how to get your nervous system back into rest and digest mode so healing and wholeness is more possible.
608
00:47:29.073 --> 00:47:29.593
I love that.
609
00:47:29.713 --> 00:47:41.880
And what I hear you saying is that while we did focus on oxalates and we're focusing on why lowering the foods that are high in oxalates or removing or lowering them in your diet is so important.
610
00:47:42.220 --> 00:47:47.622
You're also saying like, look, one of the reasons why it's affecting you is because your system's compromised.
611
00:47:47.642 --> 00:47:56.487
That if we can get our systems to a robust state, you actually can eat more than you realize you could, that you don't have to be on this completely isolated situation.
612
00:47:56.908 --> 00:48:03.442
um, very, um, foreign diet in, in terms of what probably ancestrally we ate, you know what I mean?
613
00:48:04.450 --> 00:48:08.273
Yeah, I have more options in life and be able to enjoy life again.
614
00:48:08.733 --> 00:48:15.178
Yeah, because I think that is sometimes what gets lost in the pursuit of health, right, is the enjoyment of life.
615
00:48:16.359 --> 00:48:18.620
And it kind of goes both ways.
616
00:48:18.681 --> 00:48:23.244
Either some people are extremely in the I just want to enjoy and I don't want to worry about health.
617
00:48:23.724 --> 00:48:26.326
But then others are over worried about health and not enjoying.
618
00:48:26.346 --> 00:48:29.508
So there's somewhere in the middle is where I think we want to lie.
619
00:48:31.131 --> 00:48:39.005
And obviously, you know, hopefully this discussion is a resource for people to support them finding that middle ground somewhere.
620
00:48:40.327 --> 00:48:50.795
Yes, and I just want to say for all of you poor individuals trying to figure this out, it's really not fair that it's left up to the individual because health is collectively created by communities.
621
00:48:50.896 --> 00:48:56.320
Communities who care about the air pollution and the sidewalk so everybody can walk to school and just have an active day.
622
00:48:56.880 --> 00:49:05.427
You know, having a culture that supports getting together for dinner instead of running around with chicken nuggets in the backseat and Cheerios in the backseat of the car.
623
00:49:10.611 --> 00:49:21.839
agree on is wholesome and we put our resources into that to make sure we have the safe walk to school and opportunities for family dinners and so on and community dinners and so on.
624
00:49:22.020 --> 00:49:23.821
That's critical to our health.
625
00:49:24.241 --> 00:49:33.648
And also getting past this good guy, bad guy mentality about vegetables and things like that and thinking, oh, vegetables are great and they can't hurt you.
626
00:49:34.377 --> 00:49:42.785
We need to be a little more sophisticated about that and be willing to slow down enough to learn a more complicated story about what is healthy and what may not be.
627
00:49:43.526 --> 00:49:50.252
Yeah, it's almost like no longer pretend there isn't a blind spot, but let's see the whole picture and then make decisions from there.
628
00:49:51.977 --> 00:49:54.860
Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation, Sally.
629
00:49:55.781 --> 00:49:57.022
Always enjoy seeing you.
630
00:49:58.103 --> 00:50:08.332
If someone's listening realizes, okay, spinach, almonds, chia, sweet potatoes, all the stuff that's high in oxalates, chocolate is basically their health food.
631
00:50:08.832 --> 00:50:11.214
And it's kind of what they're all that they're eating.
632
00:50:11.375 --> 00:50:14.938
What is the first thing you want them to do tomorrow?
633
00:50:15.658 --> 00:50:17.400
If this conversation has affected them?
634
00:50:20.125 --> 00:50:28.388
Well, I would say come visit my website and read around and maybe look at the reviews of Toxic Superfood and be very encouraged.
635
00:50:28.469 --> 00:50:35.832
Even the AI summary of the reviews will be very inviting to you about how much benefit people are getting out of learning this.
636
00:50:36.332 --> 00:50:37.952
And this is a very easy book to read.
637
00:50:38.413 --> 00:50:48.677
And really getting educated, opening your mind, and seeing what information I've been able to uncover and start teaching, invite yourself to the table of learning this.
638
00:50:50.284 --> 00:50:50.564
Nice.
639
00:50:50.744 --> 00:50:54.026
So just take that first step and just learning a little bit more.
640
00:50:54.726 --> 00:50:56.547
Get on some solid ground around that learning.
641
00:50:56.587 --> 00:50:56.967
I love it.
642
00:50:57.107 --> 00:50:58.748
Is dandruff an example of a...
643
00:50:59.108 --> 00:50:59.368
It is.
644
00:51:00.168 --> 00:51:01.369
What about psoriasis?
645
00:51:01.929 --> 00:51:02.269
Yes.
646
00:51:02.889 --> 00:51:04.630
All these inflammatory skin issues.
647
00:51:04.650 --> 00:51:07.351
Some people get into serious skin problems with oxalates.
648
00:51:07.731 --> 00:51:16.455
Bad, where they're itching like crazy, boils, they're scratching so much, they're bleeding through their sheets and their clothes, and it's quite horrid.
649
00:51:17.310 --> 00:51:20.853
So I have a final question I ask every guest.
650
00:51:21.734 --> 00:51:27.720
If you could wave a magic wand, bring back one ancestral practice, what would that be and why?
651
00:51:29.962 --> 00:51:31.563
Oh, gosh, there's a lot of them.
652
00:51:33.525 --> 00:51:36.487
I would say being able to go barefoot more often would be nice.
653
00:51:38.629 --> 00:51:41.112
Says the person who, when they were younger, couldn't do that.
654
00:51:41.152 --> 00:51:41.412
Yeah.
655
00:51:43.149 --> 00:51:57.114
Someone can get your book, they can go to your website, and will they get the information needed from your book and maybe anything auxiliary that will support them in dumping, getting rid of these things so that they can start to feel better?
656
00:51:57.294 --> 00:52:00.815
Or is it more like the book plus you've got to do a course?
657
00:52:02.067 --> 00:52:06.528
Well, I do offer a very inexpensive support group twice a month.
658
00:52:06.668 --> 00:52:07.929
And people love coming to that.
659
00:52:07.949 --> 00:52:11.510
And you get a ton more handouts about how to handle the dumping, a lot of coaching on that.
660
00:52:12.230 --> 00:52:13.350
PowerPoint slides.
661
00:52:13.670 --> 00:52:21.112
It's hard to get this in your head, even with the book and get audio, have the audio read it while you're reading along in the text and try to get it in your head.
662
00:52:21.473 --> 00:52:24.974
But it's so countercultural and there's no reinforcement anywhere.
663
00:52:25.034 --> 00:52:27.434
It's important to plug into the community and hang out with us.
664
00:52:27.494 --> 00:52:29.815
And it's an inexpensive thing to do.
665
00:52:30.113 --> 00:52:31.037
What is the website?
666
00:52:31.158 --> 00:52:32.302
How do they get in touch with you?
667
00:52:32.322 --> 00:52:34.732
And what's the best way for them to do that?
668
00:52:35.783 --> 00:52:38.245
So visit sallyknorton.com.
669
00:52:38.265 --> 00:52:39.546
sallyknorton.com.
670
00:52:39.606 --> 00:52:41.067
Through there, you can reach out to me.
671
00:52:41.107 --> 00:52:42.227
You can send me emails.
672
00:52:42.247 --> 00:52:43.308
You can sign up for the group.
673
00:52:43.728 --> 00:52:45.349
You can get the data companion there.
674
00:52:45.409 --> 00:52:48.752
That's the only place you'll get the good data through the website.
675
00:52:48.772 --> 00:52:49.812
It's not on Amazon.
676
00:52:50.073 --> 00:52:54.696
And just come, come, and learn and meet some other people who are on this path.
677
00:52:55.436 --> 00:52:58.058
Some very cool people with some amazing stories.
678
00:52:58.118 --> 00:53:04.142
It's quite grounding to hear people share their stories as we often do in our meetings.
679
00:53:04.907 --> 00:53:07.737
Well, thank you again for joining me on this conversation.
680
00:53:07.778 --> 00:53:09.664
And thank you all for joining us.
681
00:53:10.998 --> 00:53:12.419
We couldn't be doing this without you.
682
00:53:12.439 --> 00:53:15.320
You know, we need an audience to share these stories.
683
00:53:15.420 --> 00:53:20.303
And I think ultimately it comes back to even something Sally said, which is community.
684
00:53:20.323 --> 00:53:22.464
You know, like we shouldn't be doing this alone.
685
00:53:22.704 --> 00:53:33.530
And so I'm really grateful for all of you that chose this episode, chose Everyday Ancestral today to maybe learn something new and or just enjoy the conversation.
686
00:53:33.590 --> 00:53:36.832
But either way, we appreciate that connection time.
687
00:53:37.853 --> 00:53:40.234
And as usual, stay curious.
688
00:53:41.472 --> 00:53:44.894
Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral.
689
00:53:45.734 --> 00:53:49.936
If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one.
690
00:53:50.316 --> 00:53:55.239
You can find the show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com.
691
00:53:55.279 --> 00:54:00.401
That's E-A-T-P-L-U-C-K dot com.
692
00:54:01.121 --> 00:54:05.984
And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too.
693
00:54:06.504 --> 00:54:10.526
Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.