The Holy Ghost and the CES Letter

WEBVTT
00:00:01.217 --> 00:00:17.484
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
00:00:18.545 --> 00:00:23.193
My name is Jim Bennett and I am here with the magisterial agent...
00:00:25.356 --> 00:00:26.437
I couldn't even get through.
00:00:26.457 --> 00:00:28.702
I don't know.
00:00:28.897 --> 00:00:30.920
Magisterial Ian Wilkes
00:00:31.080 --> 00:00:32.101
is what I wanted to call you.
00:00:32.521 --> 00:00:32.802
How's that?
00:00:32.862 --> 00:00:33.222
Thank you.
00:00:33.503 --> 00:00:34.164
Thank you very much.
00:00:34.384 --> 00:00:40.911
I do prefer the title as Supreme High Lord Commander, but I'll go with that one today.
00:00:41.353 --> 00:00:41.773
All right.
00:00:41.933 --> 00:00:42.293
All right.
00:00:42.634 --> 00:00:45.737
Supreme High Lord Commander Ian Wilkes has joined me here.
00:00:45.758 --> 00:00:48.401
And we're going to talk.
00:00:48.781 --> 00:00:52.206
We've had several discussions about what we wanted to talk about.
00:00:52.326 --> 00:00:55.270
And at one point, you wanted to talk about the CES letter.
00:00:56.161 --> 00:00:58.404
As a whole document.
00:00:58.784 --> 00:01:01.607
And we've sort of taken stabs at doing that.
00:01:02.728 --> 00:01:18.846
But it's so long and there are so many topics in it that I think that trying to do that within the confines of a single podcast or even a few podcasts is probably not doing the subject justice.
00:01:20.108 --> 00:01:25.433
But you came up with a topic today that actually is addressed in the CES letter.
00:01:26.114 --> 00:01:30.078
Do you want to frame that for everybody as to what we're going to talk about?
00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:31.061
Sure.
00:01:31.480 --> 00:01:32.022
I think it's
00:01:32.783 --> 00:01:46.421
one of the most important topics we can discuss, and I think it's one of the most important topics that interests many, many people across the world, across different religions, different faiths, not just the modern faith.
00:01:47.263 --> 00:01:52.891
People of all ages, all backgrounds, all circumstances, all cultures.
00:01:53.591 --> 00:02:00.373
And it's the question around How do you know if it's the Holy Ghost or not?
00:02:01.114 --> 00:02:09.348
If you have an experience, emotional, spiritual experience, how do you know that is the Holy Ghost?
00:02:10.050 --> 00:02:11.853
And how do you interpret that?
00:02:13.215 --> 00:02:17.121
And it is addressed somewhat or referenced in the CS letter.
00:02:17.502 --> 00:02:21.026
I think it's another example of the CS letter being somewhat imbalanced.
00:02:21.808 --> 00:02:22.389
But I think this...
00:02:23.425 --> 00:02:26.310
this question around how do you know it's the Spirit?
00:02:27.331 --> 00:02:28.073
How do you really know?
00:02:28.092 --> 00:02:36.243
I think that's one of the most intriguing, compelling and significant questions of the ages alongside who am I?
00:02:36.585 --> 00:02:37.246
Why am I here?
00:02:37.866 --> 00:02:38.948
What happens after I die?
00:02:38.987 --> 00:02:42.834
How do you know that God is actually speaking to you?
00:02:42.873 --> 00:02:44.756
How do you know it's the Spirit?
00:02:45.576 --> 00:02:49.823
And I'm sure many, many people have asked this question when they've had this experience.
00:02:50.304 --> 00:02:51.645
How do they interpret something like that?
00:02:52.129 --> 00:03:01.643
So I've wanted to have this conversation for quite some time, and I think this will resonate with many people, again, of all backgrounds and different circumstances.
00:03:02.944 --> 00:03:03.966
No, I think you're right.
00:03:04.346 --> 00:03:11.716
And I think it's such a huge challenge because we rely so heavily in the church on spiritual experiences.
00:03:12.877 --> 00:03:16.962
And, you know, trust your spiritual experiences.
00:03:17.544 --> 00:03:21.789
We're given the gift of the Holy Ghost as our constant companion here.
00:03:22.145 --> 00:03:40.534
And for me, I get really kind of frustrated with people who talk about spiritual experiences somewhat lightly in that the spirit is essentially holding their hand and guiding them in everything they do.
00:03:40.594 --> 00:03:46.524
The example I use is the spirit tells you what brand of toothpaste you ought to be using.
00:03:46.563 --> 00:03:49.909
I don't think the spirit tells you those things.
00:03:50.466 --> 00:04:05.526
I can count on one hand, essentially, the times I've had experiences that I can undeniably attribute to the Holy Ghost and not to just sort of a heightened emotional state.
00:04:06.168 --> 00:04:16.182
And I think to kick this off, I want to read some of the CES letter here, because Jeremy Runnels gets into spiritual experiences and calls them unreliable.
00:04:16.898 --> 00:04:21.204
and focuses on the idea that all they are are heightened emotions.
00:04:22.305 --> 00:04:30.939
And he says things like, I felt the spirit watching Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List, both R-rated and horribly violent movies.
00:04:31.901 --> 00:04:35.726
I also felt the spirit watching Forrest Gump and The Lion King.
00:04:36.747 --> 00:04:41.855
After learning disturbing issues, I attended a conference where former Mormons shared their stories.
00:04:42.396 --> 00:04:51.742
The same spirit I felt telling me that Mormonism is true and that Joseph Smith was a true prophet is the same spirit I felt in all of the above experiences.
00:04:52.423 --> 00:04:55.326
Does this mean that the Lion King is true?
00:04:55.346 --> 00:04:58.250
That Mufasa is real and true?
00:04:58.290 --> 00:05:04.394
Does this mean that Forrest Gump is real and the story happened in real life?
00:05:05.716 --> 00:05:07.237
How would you answer that, Ian?
00:05:10.721 --> 00:05:15.425
I can see and understand why he would say that and think that.
00:05:16.482 --> 00:05:19.545
He cannot say that for sure.
00:05:19.586 --> 00:05:24.713
He's interpreted that experience in that way, using those examples.
00:05:25.473 --> 00:05:43.059
I think he describes a common spiritual experience in a quite frivolous way, and I think it somewhat can be disrespectful to a lot of people who do feel the Spirit.
00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:45.161
You know, is the Lion King real?
00:05:45.730 --> 00:05:46.069
Yeah.
00:05:46.430 --> 00:05:47.612
A little bit of a joke of that.
00:05:47.692 --> 00:05:49.053
That's what comes through to me, at least.
00:05:50.475 --> 00:05:56.944
It is, as I take him at face value, you've met Jeremy, I haven't, I don't know him.
00:05:58.004 --> 00:06:03.492
So you can speak to, I believe he's an authentic individual, very sincere, very genuine, from what I understand.
00:06:04.994 --> 00:06:17.271
But I think those experiences, you know, when we feel those emotions, those spiritual experiences, we can feel them I mean, it's an example to that.
00:06:18.112 --> 00:06:25.321
When I was investigating the church and the missionaries shared the, well, it wasn't the video, I'll give my age away here, it was the...
00:06:27.524 --> 00:06:28.343
The film strip.
00:06:28.764 --> 00:06:31.107
The film strip with the noises, the tape and the film strip.
00:06:31.168 --> 00:06:33.209
That's all there, exactly.
00:06:33.709 --> 00:06:38.836
And they showed Farmers Are Forever, Jamie, I'll Build You a Rainbow.
00:06:38.855 --> 00:06:45.892
I think that Video would mean something quite different now, by the way, compared to what it did back in the 80s.
00:06:46.553 --> 00:06:48.576
And they also showed the same poster.
00:06:48.997 --> 00:06:51.021
They showed Mad Surge for Happiness.
00:06:52.543 --> 00:06:57.250
At that time in my life as a young 16-year-old, I felt very vulnerable.
00:06:57.269 --> 00:07:02.338
I was alone, frightened, uncertain about the future.
00:07:02.358 --> 00:07:06.504
And family life wasn't great, as I shared with you earlier.
00:07:07.185 --> 00:07:09.790
And the missionaries taught me that I was a son of God.
00:07:10.434 --> 00:07:13.418
I was loved, needed, all the things that I needed to hear.
00:07:13.437 --> 00:07:20.867
The questions I had about the purpose in my life, they weren't necessarily profound about, you know, why am I here, where am I going?
00:07:20.889 --> 00:07:25.093
I was so confused about my life.
00:07:25.153 --> 00:07:27.838
I didn't even think to ask those questions, but I was lost.
00:07:28.298 --> 00:07:29.060
And I knew I was lost.
00:07:29.721 --> 00:07:31.083
And I felt quite alone.
00:07:31.423 --> 00:07:33.605
And my self-esteem and self-confidence was low.
00:07:34.146 --> 00:07:36.189
And the Mishra's, and they were extraordinary people.
00:07:37.858 --> 00:07:40.821
taught me that I'm actually worth something, that I'm valuable.
00:07:41.521 --> 00:07:46.026
And they shared those videos, those materials, and I felt a profound...
00:07:46.187 --> 00:07:47.148
I had a profound experience.
00:07:47.187 --> 00:07:47.869
I think I shared that.
00:07:48.689 --> 00:08:06.788
I felt the feelings that we teach, we taught as missionaries, which is in Galatians 5.22, which says that the fruits of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
00:08:06.848 --> 00:08:07.129
I felt...
00:08:08.865 --> 00:08:09.507
A lot of that.
00:08:10.007 --> 00:08:11.168
I also felt a tingling.
00:08:11.348 --> 00:08:15.173
I got a tingling feeling in my body.
00:08:15.814 --> 00:08:19.718
And the missionaries taught me that that was actually the Holy Ghost.
00:08:20.738 --> 00:08:24.764
I thought it was extraordinary that God was speaking to someone like me.
00:08:26.045 --> 00:08:31.872
And so I associated that experience with the Holy Ghost.
00:08:33.553 --> 00:08:45.331
Fast forward to, and again, I'm sharing this Not to be disrespectful, but I'm sharing this to understand Jeremy's comments there in the CS letter.
00:08:45.793 --> 00:08:48.837
Fast forward to one of the Marvel movies.
00:08:49.739 --> 00:09:11.481
I think it's the Infinity War where Thor arrives with the Stormbringer axe just in time in Wakanda before they defeated and the music and the scene and the whole scene act of that particular scene, I felt a tingling feeling.
00:09:11.721 --> 00:09:12.602
It was amazing.
00:09:13.724 --> 00:09:15.326
So very similar tingling feelings.
00:09:15.385 --> 00:09:18.288
I can understand Jeremy's connection to that.
00:09:18.408 --> 00:09:28.499
It doesn't mean you can ask, you can argue in the same logic, is the Infinity War the true movie upon the face of the earth?
00:09:28.678 --> 00:09:31.782
Is Thor real, right?
00:09:33.202 --> 00:09:34.985
However, it's all about context.
00:09:35.525 --> 00:09:48.519
And Of course, the latter experience is unlikely to be the Holy Ghost or religious experience, but it's associated with a good feeling.
00:09:48.558 --> 00:09:55.889
I think the music, and he references this in the CS letter, the heartfelt music, psychological components of that.
00:09:55.908 --> 00:10:03.099
I think there is a relationship between those movie experiences and music to generate an emotion.
00:10:03.259 --> 00:10:04.822
That's no secret.
00:10:05.346 --> 00:10:06.086
That's universal.
00:10:06.106 --> 00:10:07.629
That's been around for a long time.
00:10:08.630 --> 00:10:11.976
And I think that's part of the movie and music experience.
00:10:11.996 --> 00:10:20.811
We can think of songs and music, not necessarily religious, but connect with us on a very personal level for different reasons and different ways.
00:10:21.852 --> 00:10:25.458
And it can be and is a spiritual experience.
00:10:25.538 --> 00:10:32.129
The emotional experience can, and it's appropriate to interpret that as a spiritual experience.
00:10:32.865 --> 00:10:45.500
And it's hard to separate emotional from spiritual, because we've said in Galatians 5.22, love, joy, peace, these are emotional experiences, and they're also spiritual experiences.
00:10:46.441 --> 00:10:58.494
And so going back to my time when I was investigating the church and hearing what I wanted to hear, and still now believing that was all journey, I believe that was a spiritual experience.
00:10:58.946 --> 00:11:02.730
and an emotional experience, confirming my value, my worth.
00:11:04.793 --> 00:11:11.042
The question, though, is does it mean it's specific, exclusive to the Mormon faith?
00:11:11.903 --> 00:11:15.928
The missionaries taught that that was exclusive and specific to Joseph Smith being a prophet.
00:11:15.989 --> 00:11:20.294
That was essentially, this is the only true church and the only path to God.
00:11:20.975 --> 00:11:22.837
And that's how I interpreted it.
00:11:22.958 --> 00:11:23.799
That's what they taught me.
00:11:24.581 --> 00:11:27.945
This is how you interpret this.
00:11:27.985 --> 00:11:31.116
This is This means that this is the only true church and you have to join.
00:11:31.157 --> 00:11:32.118
That was basically the message.
00:11:32.697 --> 00:11:49.476
I've now come to learn that that was a universal experience, that other people who are taught universal principles of value, love, and worth, and acceptance, and you have a purpose in life, that is now universal.
00:11:49.496 --> 00:12:08.807
I also believe that it can and does come from God, that the power, the spirit, you can call it what you want, the Holy Ghost, that there's an energy, a power that's outside of the body, that is very real and very significant, and it has and can and influences people in very, very profound ways.
00:12:09.628 --> 00:12:19.703
It's connected to, I believe, universal principles, like what we described earlier, low joy, peace, and that people can experience those beyond the Mormon faith.
00:12:19.783 --> 00:12:20.625
It's not exclusive.
00:12:20.985 --> 00:12:23.549
Mormon church doesn't have a monopoly on these experiences.
00:12:24.230 --> 00:12:32.234
I personally believe, and I'm outside of the church, These experiences come from a higher source, independent, beyond our influence.
00:12:33.014 --> 00:12:33.514
They're real.
00:12:34.176 --> 00:12:44.910
And I've had some profound experiences in the church and since I've left the church, which confirm that there is a real force, power and energy.
00:12:44.951 --> 00:12:50.057
Is it the Mormon God, the Mormon Holy Ghost, as it's defined?
00:12:51.490 --> 00:12:53.011
I don't believe so anymore.
00:12:53.812 --> 00:12:56.455
I think this is a universal experience.
00:12:56.495 --> 00:12:57.716
It can be a universal experience.
00:12:58.376 --> 00:13:19.360
And so going back to the Jeremy Reynolds CES letter, I think my interpretation of what he reads and how he writes, he trivializes something that could be and often is a significant, powerful, religious, emotional, spiritual experience.
00:13:19.980 --> 00:13:28.889
It doesn't mean that the Lion King really means that at that particular point in the movie, it's a feel-good factor.
00:13:29.309 --> 00:13:33.433
And I think that can be spiritual.
00:13:33.494 --> 00:13:34.355
We can see movies.
00:13:34.434 --> 00:13:40.481
One of my favorite movies, A Wonderful Life, that's a made-up movie.
00:13:41.302 --> 00:13:44.505
It's a fictional movie.
00:13:44.986 --> 00:13:50.011
However, it has a lot of real meaning and reality in it.
00:13:50.633 --> 00:13:51.474
It's quite profound.
00:13:52.514 --> 00:13:55.658
You know, that did happen in real life, of course, that story.
00:13:56.078 --> 00:14:02.267
But the messages that that conveys and the feeling that I get when I watch that is very profound.
00:14:02.326 --> 00:14:04.409
I watch it every year, Christmas, with my family.
00:14:04.429 --> 00:14:07.794
I get emotional.
00:14:08.375 --> 00:14:09.277
I never get bored of it.
00:14:09.898 --> 00:14:10.859
It never happens.
00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.326
But I know that those principles that are in there, what it's trying to teach, are real and significant.
00:14:16.647 --> 00:14:20.572
And I think you can get that from music, religious and unreligious.
00:14:20.633 --> 00:14:25.023
I think you can get that from Movies, religious or non-religious.
00:14:25.043 --> 00:14:28.929
I can think of lots of movies that are not to do with religion where they make me feel good.
00:14:28.990 --> 00:14:34.900
I think I come out of the movie thinking, wow, I remember going to see Rocky, Rocky 3.
00:14:35.822 --> 00:14:37.466
And I felt I was on top of the world.
00:14:37.485 --> 00:14:41.472
I came out and I'm like, wow, I just felt so good about Rocky.
00:14:41.985 --> 00:14:44.950
It doesn't mean that Rocky's a prophet or anything like that.
00:14:45.331 --> 00:15:09.143
But I think the danger in the CS letter, I think, and it's a problem I have with it, and I think it's wrong, actually, inappropriate, to trivialize something that could be a positive spiritual and emotional experience that is a natural human phenomenon, a natural human experience.
00:15:09.163 --> 00:15:10.806
And we can get that from all kinds of sources.
00:15:11.874 --> 00:15:12.575
Excuse me.
00:15:12.835 --> 00:15:14.957
And I get that from nature as well.
00:15:14.977 --> 00:15:20.105
You know, when we go out into nature and we walk and we walk in the woodland and the trees and forests.
00:15:20.885 --> 00:15:25.472
It's a profound, you can have a profound experience in nature.
00:15:25.513 --> 00:15:30.119
So I think spirituality is connected, is separately connected to emotions.
00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:32.241
Not that you can separate them.
00:15:32.883 --> 00:15:37.048
They can be extremely positive and very beneficial.
00:15:37.067 --> 00:15:41.053
I think it's inappropriate to trivialize them.
00:15:42.529 --> 00:15:47.918
think that, you know, as humans, we built and designed this way for a reason.
00:15:47.938 --> 00:15:56.552
And I think most of us, not all of us, sort of as a past feeling that we don't feel that side of life, unfortunately.
00:15:57.374 --> 00:16:02.802
But a lot of us, most of us, I think do respond to, you know, when we hear something, can feel something that's good.
00:16:03.222 --> 00:16:03.703
We feel it.
00:16:03.823 --> 00:16:04.806
It's an emotional thing.
00:16:04.865 --> 00:16:05.687
And I think it's a good thing.
00:16:05.706 --> 00:16:07.990
And I think it is spiritual.
00:16:08.010 --> 00:16:18.787
And I do believe it's a The original source of that, the origins of that are beyond this world.
00:16:20.109 --> 00:16:25.995
But that's not to say that God is behind every movie.
00:16:26.274 --> 00:16:36.365
I think what I'm trying to say is that those good emotional experiences are universal and we can get them from lots of different sources.
00:16:36.947 --> 00:16:39.470
So that's my response.
00:16:40.001 --> 00:16:40.302
to that.
00:16:40.361 --> 00:16:43.625
I can see where it's coming from, but I think it trivializes it.
00:16:43.806 --> 00:16:50.113
I think that's unfortunate because people who have had real experiences that to them are very real.
00:16:50.153 --> 00:17:03.788
It's a danger now of them thinking that that wasn't real, that wasn't meaningful, and the reality could be, in fact, it was, and it did mean something, and it was important.
00:17:04.749 --> 00:17:05.990
And now they're trivializing it.
00:17:06.029 --> 00:17:10.623
They probably write it off and probably quite sad and feel That's unfortunate.
00:17:10.722 --> 00:17:17.871
So I think that's where the CS letter is biased and not balanced.
00:17:18.090 --> 00:17:18.791
That's my response.
00:17:19.752 --> 00:17:33.026
Well, I don't think Jeremy was asking that question in good faith when he's asking, does this mean that Mufasa is physically real?
00:17:33.047 --> 00:17:36.349
I mean, he knows that that's not what that means.
00:17:37.026 --> 00:17:53.174
But it's fascinating because this section, more than anything else in the CES letter, I found troubling because it said to me that the church really let Jeremy Rutles down.
00:17:53.194 --> 00:17:58.905
I mean, if he is that misguided...
00:17:59.490 --> 00:18:24.962
about what a spiritual experience is, if he doesn't have enough context to separate the difference between an emotional response to a movie from a response from the Lord revealing some truth to him, I think that means he was able to go through the church for three decades or so.
00:18:24.982 --> 00:18:27.326
He was in his early 30s, I think, when he left.
00:18:27.970 --> 00:18:35.999
But he was able to go through the church for the majority of life and never really understand what a spiritual experience is.
00:18:36.038 --> 00:18:38.301
And that makes me sad.
00:18:38.342 --> 00:18:50.915
It also demonstrates to me, I think, and one of my problems with the CES letter as a whole, I remember talking to Stephen Smoot, who Jeremy Rutles really can't stand.
00:18:50.955 --> 00:18:53.715
Stephen Smoot is a young scholar.
00:18:53.915 --> 00:18:56.279
He's getting a doctorate in Egyptology.
00:18:56.299 --> 00:18:59.965
He's sort of the rising new Hugh Nibley out there.
00:19:01.328 --> 00:19:17.625
But he made a point to me when I was talking to him about the CES letter, and he said, when people leave the church, very often all they do is switch jerseys, and they're just as black and white as once they've left the church as they were when they were in the church.
00:19:18.185 --> 00:19:29.657
And the CES letter to me is an example of the kind of black and white thinking that is problematic in the church and can be equally problematic out of the church.
00:19:29.798 --> 00:19:48.093
If you're not willing to sort of, if everything is all or nothing, if everything is black and white, if there's no way to sort of navigate some kind of middle space, then I think you have no choice but to leave the church because the church is not perfect.
00:19:48.173 --> 00:19:53.038
The church is not 100% absolutely pure, wonderful, perfect.
00:19:54.058 --> 00:19:54.920
There are problems.
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:57.583
There are things that you have to navigate.
00:19:58.624 --> 00:20:02.909
And if it has to be all or nothing, then it's going to end up being nothing.
00:20:03.910 --> 00:20:16.394
But to your point of spiritual experiences and to your point of, you know, you felt great coming out of the Rocky movies, Rocky III, though, I don't know that that's the one I would choose.
00:20:17.696 --> 00:20:18.196
Well, Mr.
00:20:18.257 --> 00:20:19.578
T's awesome in that movie.
00:20:20.500 --> 00:20:22.362
What's your prediction for this fight?
00:20:23.242 --> 00:20:23.804
Pain.
00:20:24.884 --> 00:20:26.267
That's the best fight in that movie.
00:20:27.208 --> 00:20:31.332
Anyway, I think the spirit...
00:20:31.593 --> 00:20:35.257
So Joseph Smith said a number of interesting things about the spirit.
00:20:36.278 --> 00:20:39.422
Obviously, I'm still coming at this from a...
00:20:39.713 --> 00:21:01.458
an inside-the-church perspective, I certainly agree with you that people everywhere can have these spiritual experiences, that the Church does not have a monopoly on spiritual experiences, that God does not exist solely in the box of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
00:21:05.698 --> 00:21:13.665
Some of the things that have been taught in the church have been remarkably profound to me in understanding what the Spirit is and how the Spirit works.
00:21:14.826 --> 00:21:23.355
And Joseph Smith at one point said, no man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations.
00:21:23.455 --> 00:21:25.817
The Holy Ghost is a revelator.
00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:33.465
And we talk about revelation as being this big, grand, sweeping thing.
00:21:34.241 --> 00:21:44.352
But I think every time you watch It's a Wonderful Life at Christmastime and you feel those kinds of feelings, something is being revealed to you.
00:21:45.211 --> 00:21:52.819
And what is being revealed to you is the truthfulness of the principles that are embodied in that film.
00:21:53.779 --> 00:22:03.690
You know, the Book of Mormon talks about, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of all things, which is different from knowing all truth.
00:22:04.897 --> 00:22:20.593
In other words, the Holy Ghost will testify to you that something is a true principle, that there is truth here that is of value to you, and there's something that God wants you to be paying attention to.
00:22:21.913 --> 00:22:36.136
For Jeremy Runnels to then say, oh, that means it's like ringing a bell, essentially, that when you feel the Spirit, then that must mean that Mufasa is a true corporeal lion, and that this actually happened.
00:22:37.377 --> 00:22:40.143
And I don't think he even believes that.
00:22:40.303 --> 00:22:47.554
I think he's trying to use that as kind of an absurd example.
00:22:48.414 --> 00:22:57.208
But we get into trouble with that because we tell people to pray about the Book of Mormon, and we tie that into the Book of Mormon.
00:22:57.868 --> 00:23:11.566
That when we say, okay, well, the Book of Mormon is true, So that means that the Book of Mormon's historical claims, or the historical claims that have been made about the Book of Mormon, are also true.
00:23:11.926 --> 00:23:19.096
All of that is wrapped up into that wonderful experience you have as you are reading the Book of Mormon.
00:23:20.076 --> 00:23:26.505
And I think that that is a fraught thing for the Church to have perpetuated over the years.
00:23:27.365 --> 00:23:30.430
Because there are a number of...
00:23:30.945 --> 00:23:41.061
I think the power of the Book of Mormon, the reason the Book of Mormon resonates with me, is the power it has to connect me to God.
00:23:41.282 --> 00:23:43.546
I call it a divine access point.
00:23:44.928 --> 00:23:58.390
And the older I get, and the more further down the road I get, the less interested I am in the question of Book of Mormon historicity.
00:23:59.137 --> 00:24:01.000
I can have a discussion about it.
00:24:01.619 --> 00:24:10.087
I think the evidence for Book of Mormon historicity is stronger than critics are willing to allow, and we can probably have a long discussion about that.
00:24:11.209 --> 00:24:13.090
I think that's its own separate podcast.
00:24:13.951 --> 00:24:17.776
But none of that is the reason why it matters to me.
00:24:18.056 --> 00:24:23.840
Why it matters to me is it generates these encounters with the Holy Ghost.
00:24:24.080 --> 00:24:31.116
It generates these kinds of spiritual reinforcements of true principles in a way that connect me to God.
00:24:31.356 --> 00:24:38.989
Now, does that mean that people who don't read the Book of Mormon and people who are not members of the church can't have those kinds of experiences?
00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:41.553
It absolutely does not mean that.
00:24:42.574 --> 00:24:52.990
And no part of my spiritual journey is reliant on discrediting the spiritual journey of somebody else.
00:24:53.270 --> 00:25:03.449
I think there was a point in my life where I kind of not only had to sort of prove the church was true, I had to prove that somebody else's church was not.
00:25:04.089 --> 00:25:09.178
I had to prove, okay, well, for my church to be true, your church has to be false.
00:25:09.337 --> 00:25:12.001
Your spiritual experiences have to be invalid.
00:25:13.324 --> 00:25:24.902
And you see so much of that in social media, in Mormon social media particularly, is that you have these people who are fierce defenders of the church who pretty much rejoice.
00:25:25.794 --> 00:25:28.837
in the suffering and sadness of people who have left.
00:25:29.659 --> 00:25:33.104
They see that as vindication of their own faith.
00:25:34.105 --> 00:25:43.417
And you see them doing everything they can when somebody like an Ian Wilkes says, oh, I'm happier than I've ever been and my life is great.
00:25:44.199 --> 00:25:45.560
They have to poke holes in that.
00:25:45.780 --> 00:25:47.262
They have to say, no, no, no, no, no.
00:25:47.683 --> 00:25:49.006
Your life's really not great.
00:25:49.046 --> 00:25:51.869
You're really not happy because that's not possible.
00:25:52.642 --> 00:25:53.823
if you leave the church.
00:25:54.044 --> 00:25:56.306
And I think that's just absolute nonsense.
00:25:56.527 --> 00:26:11.664
And I don't understand the desire to tear down somebody else's happiness or to tear down somebody else's spiritual experience and to sort of base your own faith on someone else's faith destruction.
00:26:12.246 --> 00:26:15.528
And you see that in the church all the time.
00:26:15.569 --> 00:26:19.114
And you see it publicly in the church.
00:26:19.586 --> 00:26:20.667
All the time.
00:26:20.968 --> 00:26:22.651
And it's really a problem.
00:26:22.851 --> 00:26:26.696
And I think it's something that absolutely needs to be addressed.
00:26:27.698 --> 00:26:52.066
But getting back to what Joseph Smith has said about the Holy Ghost as a revelator, he also said in the eighth section of the Doctrine and Covenants, he talked about the fact, he says, verses 2 and 3, Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart, Now behold, this is the spirit of revelation.
00:26:52.906 --> 00:26:58.452
Elsewhere, he talked about the idea of pure intelligence flowing into you.
00:26:59.713 --> 00:27:02.436
And there are a lot of definitions there.
00:27:02.497 --> 00:27:16.412
Joseph Smith talked about intelligence, light and intelligence, and all these kinds of things that have very sort of specific definitions in a Mormon context that they may not have outside of that context.
00:27:17.272 --> 00:27:18.273
But this idea...
00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:28.885
President Joseph Fielding McConkie, who was my mission president after you had left, said, never has the Lord given a mindless revelation.
00:27:31.269 --> 00:27:46.614
You're not supposed to check your minds at the door when you come to church, because the Holy Ghost speaks to both your mind and your heart, so there is an intellectual engagement as well as sort of an emotional stirring.
00:27:47.394 --> 00:27:50.297
which is certainly a product of this.
00:27:51.057 --> 00:27:55.702
So, I mean, I had countless sort of experiences.
00:27:55.742 --> 00:27:57.805
You talk about music.
00:27:57.904 --> 00:28:08.817
It's one of the reasons why I treasure singing in the Tabernacle Choir, because every time I sing this beautiful music, I have a spiritual experience.
00:28:09.498 --> 00:28:16.905
Now, it's not the kind of spiritual experience where I feel like I've received a revelation that's going to change my life.
00:28:17.857 --> 00:28:33.015
But it is a reinforcement of the truth that there is a God, that this God loves me, this God loves all of humanity, and I feel his presence, I feel his love and his joy in music.
00:28:34.175 --> 00:28:42.005
And it's one of the reasons why I've sort of tied myself so closely to that as my preferred form of worship.
00:28:42.766 --> 00:28:46.569
You know, it's just such a lovely way to me to participate in the church.
00:28:47.490 --> 00:28:58.384
Because it sidesteps, to some degree, the stuff that I don't find lovely, that I don't find uplifting, which is the bureaucracy and all of that kind of stuff.
00:28:59.165 --> 00:29:04.673
The older I get, the less patience I have for it.
00:29:05.855 --> 00:29:16.650
So to your point, and all of these things, I don't think you should discount the fact that there is a spirit operating...
00:29:17.377 --> 00:29:26.549
When you see a movie that uplifts you, that reminds you of a true principle, that reminds you of some kind of broader reality beyond yourself.
00:29:26.750 --> 00:29:28.231
And I think you find that in movies.
00:29:28.291 --> 00:29:30.214
And like you said, you can find it in nature.
00:29:30.275 --> 00:29:31.435
You can find it everywhere.
00:29:32.798 --> 00:29:34.019
Truth is everywhere.
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:46.603
And every time you encounter it, you have the opportunity for the Holy Ghost to reinforce it and sort of reveal it to you again and say, hey, Pay attention.
00:29:46.663 --> 00:29:47.324
This is true.
00:29:47.544 --> 00:29:48.244
This matters.
00:29:48.965 --> 00:29:50.948
This is significant in your life.
00:29:50.988 --> 00:29:59.858
And so I think you can do that in the church, but I also think that you can do that out of the church as well.
00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:04.044
When you left the church, were you concerned?
00:30:04.084 --> 00:30:15.417
Because the church emphasizes the idea that, okay, once you leave, you are forfeiting the gift of the Holy Ghost that is given to you at baptism.
00:30:16.066 --> 00:30:17.969
Did that frighten you?
00:30:18.009 --> 00:30:27.781
Was the actual experience of leaving, did any of that register?
00:30:27.801 --> 00:30:33.891
Did you feel like you had lost some kind of spiritual beacon that you had had before?
00:30:33.911 --> 00:30:35.834
That's a great question.
00:30:39.618 --> 00:30:44.566
I never thought about it in those terms.
00:30:46.561 --> 00:30:51.307
Prior to leaving the church, for me, attending the church was an ordeal.
00:30:51.709 --> 00:30:57.537
It was making me ill, frankly, mentally, psychologically, physically.
00:30:57.557 --> 00:31:06.729
It was extremely difficult to continue to go to church and hear and see things that I knew just weren't correct or weren't true.
00:31:07.550 --> 00:31:13.838
And so going to church was actually impeding and restricting my spirituality.
00:31:13.999 --> 00:31:15.741
I was less spiritual.
00:31:16.321 --> 00:31:16.923
going to church.
00:31:17.963 --> 00:31:26.771
And when I stopped going to church, I felt almost immediately, well, less religious, yet more spiritual.
00:31:27.051 --> 00:31:28.452
And I think there's a distinction there.
00:31:28.472 --> 00:31:32.676
You can be spiritual and not necessarily be religious.
00:31:34.078 --> 00:31:34.999
And that was my experience.
00:31:35.059 --> 00:31:53.041
I became and feel more spiritual, far in tune with the universal principles of what in that scripture, Galatians 5, 22, love, peace, and and those kinds of experiences and feeling it at one moment.
00:31:53.923 --> 00:32:06.376
And the universal principles of kindness and love and understanding and tolerance, I was more of that, I believe, I feel, and as other people have commented.
00:32:07.018 --> 00:32:10.102
And going to church, I was less spiritual.
00:32:10.122 --> 00:32:11.103
I was more just mental.
00:32:11.202 --> 00:32:12.104
It was more dogma.
00:32:12.464 --> 00:32:13.526
It was more just mental.
00:32:14.018 --> 00:32:35.501
I was looking at the world through this very narrow prism of rules and regulations and conformity and a lack of agency, frankly, going to church where I didn't feel free to ask questions, to think openly, freely, critically.
00:32:35.521 --> 00:32:42.710
I didn't have that freedom in my mind and my spirit going to church.
00:32:43.266 --> 00:32:45.568
When I left, the opposite happened.
00:32:45.648 --> 00:32:52.920
I felt free, and I felt I had more.
00:32:54.142 --> 00:33:16.510
I'd escaped the shackles of that constrained mindset of thinking, the very narrow thinking, think like this, feel like this, do this, do that, very prescribed set of conditions that you have to think and feel and behave and act and respond in a certain way.
00:33:16.932 --> 00:33:21.699
When I left, I felt freedom and more universal, less judgmental.
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:29.789
So my spirituality advanced and accelerated and heightened post leaving the church.
00:33:30.210 --> 00:33:33.414
Especially when I resigned, I felt a sense of liberty.
00:33:34.016 --> 00:33:42.686
When I resigned, it was extraordinary because when I joined the church all those years ago, I felt the same freedom feelings, Jim.
00:33:42.787 --> 00:33:49.915
I felt a sense of peace and long-suffering and a sense of freedom that I'd escaped the world.
00:33:51.438 --> 00:33:57.866
And here I was in this extraordinary organization that was the only true and living church upon the face of the earth.
00:33:57.926 --> 00:34:00.028
This is the only way, the only path to God.
00:34:00.670 --> 00:34:05.455
And I didn't see it back then in the same way that I do it now.
00:34:05.916 --> 00:34:08.480
So now I'm more spiritual.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:13.173
I'm in I'm connected in a very profound way with my spirituality.
00:34:13.494 --> 00:34:15.295
As humans, we're spiritual beings.
00:34:15.516 --> 00:34:18.699
I believe we have a spirit inside of our body.
00:34:20.181 --> 00:34:22.824
I believe that spirit goes somewhere after we die.
00:34:22.844 --> 00:34:24.887
I don't know all the details about what happens.
00:34:25.668 --> 00:34:36.581
I don't believe in the Mormon way of the specific teachings of what happens after we die.
00:34:37.793 --> 00:34:40.458
I believe that if you're good, you go to a good place.
00:34:40.778 --> 00:34:43.903
And if you're not good, then I don't know what happens there.
00:34:46.186 --> 00:34:48.030
I used to think I knew all the answers.
00:34:49.032 --> 00:34:56.324
As members of the church, you get taught very clear, very defined answers to what happens.
00:34:56.384 --> 00:35:01.893
There's a defined path, the path of salvation is very clear.
00:35:02.193 --> 00:35:05.018
Go to the temple, get married, serve in the church.
00:35:05.793 --> 00:35:07.135
These are the kingdoms.
00:35:07.396 --> 00:35:09.498
A lot of it is kind of laid out for you.
00:35:09.518 --> 00:35:09.980
It's the plan.
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:10.900
It's the plan of salvation.
00:35:11.322 --> 00:35:18.831
That gave me a degree of certainty, stability, predictability, some assurances, if you like, for the future.
00:35:19.413 --> 00:35:25.481
Now, I think I expected when I left the church to feel a bit frightened, scared.
00:35:25.501 --> 00:35:28.246
And there were times when I felt that.
00:35:28.286 --> 00:35:29.427
I'm like, my goodness, what now?
00:35:29.907 --> 00:35:31.050
I don't go anymore.
00:35:31.585 --> 00:35:32.106
What have I got?
00:35:32.186 --> 00:35:34.190
What anchor do I have to hang on to?
00:35:34.289 --> 00:35:35.652
Now I'm kind of free falling.
00:35:36.393 --> 00:35:47.010
But in the whole experience of free falling, I rediscovered myself and learned a bit more about myself and learned that I do have a purpose and I don't need to go to a building to be spiritual.
00:35:47.630 --> 00:35:49.373
And I have more time.
00:35:49.494 --> 00:35:51.336
I have more time with the family, more time to serve.
00:35:51.856 --> 00:35:53.860
And I'm not attending meetings with the sake of meetings.
00:35:54.380 --> 00:35:55.903
You mentioned earlier about the Book of Mormon.
00:35:56.423 --> 00:36:00.030
And I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is a literal church.
00:36:00.418 --> 00:36:02.119
accurate historical text.
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:04.942
I don't accept that, and that's another conversation.
00:36:04.981 --> 00:36:23.019
However, if I read the Book of Mormon now, or I was reading this in a very private, personal way, I know that there will be passages in there that are quite universal, that if I read them, I would feel some emotion, some spirituality, because they're universal.
00:36:23.601 --> 00:36:27.864
And so the Book of Mormon teaches universal principles.
00:36:29.206 --> 00:36:29.246
It
00:36:29.442 --> 00:36:30.083
The Bible does.
00:36:30.623 --> 00:36:33.949
There are many other literature that you and I are familiar with.
00:36:34.429 --> 00:36:34.690
C.S.
00:36:34.730 --> 00:36:42.221
Lewis, Shakespeare teaches things and expresses in such a way that is quite profound.
00:36:43.001 --> 00:36:46.666
We talked about these movies and the songs.
00:36:47.088 --> 00:36:50.413
But I do want to pick up on something that I think is very significant in the C.S.
00:36:50.472 --> 00:36:50.733
lesson.
00:36:50.753 --> 00:36:54.378
I think this is a problem that spans...
00:36:56.833 --> 00:36:58.815
quite a lot on the CES letter.
00:36:58.856 --> 00:37:07.583
And I think this is a document that has been too much weight, I think, has been placed on the document.
00:37:08.844 --> 00:37:15.411
And the document in parts, at least, are not balanced.
00:37:15.431 --> 00:37:19.335
And I want to give an example of what I mean by that, because I think it's really, really important.
00:37:19.355 --> 00:37:23.880
I think the document contains really helpful information, but I think it's imbalanced.
00:37:24.460 --> 00:37:26.222
And then it has some holes, it has some gaps.
00:37:26.786 --> 00:37:30.911
So if you look at, and again, it's important to be very specific and provide some examples.
00:37:31.411 --> 00:37:36.876
Look at the section here, Testimony and Spiritual Witness, Concerns and Questions.
00:37:38.498 --> 00:37:45.907
Jeremy, straight into it, goes into what I would describe as his own personal bias.
00:37:45.927 --> 00:37:49.471
So he's had an experience with the church over the years.
00:37:49.751 --> 00:37:53.996
He may or may not have had some spiritual experience, which he may or may not be able to interpret it as that.
00:37:54.376 --> 00:37:55.097
I don't think he has.
00:37:55.137 --> 00:38:03.380
He I think he puts that down to an emotional experience like you get in the Lion King.
00:38:05.101 --> 00:38:10.248
And I just want to just be clear about what we mean by cognitive biases, because we all have them.
00:38:11.710 --> 00:38:23.746
And a cognitive bias is a systematic thought process caused by the tendency of the human brain to simplify information processing through a filter of personal experiences and preferences.
00:38:24.449 --> 00:38:31.041
The filtering process is a coping mechanism that enables the brain to prioritize and process large amounts of information quickly.
00:38:31.340 --> 00:38:32.943
And that's one definition.
00:38:33.644 --> 00:38:45.204
And if you look at, again, if you look at my experience investigating the church, where I desperately wanted to hear all of the information, the message that the missionaries were sharing, and they interpreted that for me, that was all it goes.
00:38:45.324 --> 00:38:46.987
It was easy for them.
00:38:47.047 --> 00:38:49.992
It was an easy sell, if you like, in that respect.
00:38:50.333 --> 00:38:50.914
The sales...
00:38:51.617 --> 00:38:52.559
Cell's not the right word.
00:38:52.818 --> 00:38:53.480
I take that back.
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:54.681
That's inappropriate.
00:38:55.161 --> 00:38:55.862
It was a genuine...
00:38:56.744 --> 00:38:57.344
Cell makes it...
00:38:57.844 --> 00:39:02.331
I fall into the trap of being like Jeremy Reynolds if I use the word cell.
00:39:03.431 --> 00:39:04.233
And I take that back.
00:39:04.273 --> 00:39:09.099
I think that was a mistake saying that because back then, for me, that was a very real experience, Jim.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.003
Very personal, very profound, very emotional.
00:39:12.302 --> 00:39:12.844
There were tears.
00:39:13.324 --> 00:39:14.105
And it was very real.
00:39:14.304 --> 00:39:19.050
And the missionaries taught me that I was actually worth something.
00:39:19.210 --> 00:39:20.271
It was very, very real.
00:39:20.313 --> 00:39:21.414
I can't ever, ever...
00:39:21.762 --> 00:39:22.443
trivialize that.
00:39:22.483 --> 00:39:26.266
The word, I don't believe they were selling to me, and I don't believe I was being sold to.
00:39:26.306 --> 00:39:27.708
I think they were universal principles.
00:39:28.188 --> 00:39:43.246
But if you look at the Jeremy Runnels, this section here, and in the context of cognitive biases, he goes straight into the test of the spiritual witness section with his own bias, and there's no opposite balance.
00:39:43.385 --> 00:39:44.847
It just doesn't exist in this section.
00:39:45.387 --> 00:39:52.976
For example, he talks about some of the quotes from the general authorities there, and you know, Well, Fairmore and Blog, sorry, not General Authorities.
00:39:53.016 --> 00:39:55.119
We should not just go on our own feelings and everything.
00:39:55.298 --> 00:39:56.639
Granted, our feelings can be wrong.
00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:57.701
Of course, they can be wrong.
00:39:58.242 --> 00:40:01.025
We do indeed advocate the focus of the Holy Ghost, the guidance and truth.
00:40:01.324 --> 00:40:02.666
He quotes that from Fairmore.
00:40:02.686 --> 00:40:04.568
And, you know, I understand what he's doing there.
00:40:04.789 --> 00:40:15.179
What I'm saying is that straight out the gate, he's going into, he's searching the internet for quotes that support his bias straight out the gate in this.
00:40:15.340 --> 00:40:15.860
And that's wrong.
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:16.621
I think that's a mistake.
00:40:17.121 --> 00:40:24.050
He says here also, our unique strength is the ability to touch the hearts and minds of our audiences, evoke and boost feelings, and thought and finally action.
00:40:24.090 --> 00:40:26.333
He's talking about the Malcolm Rand creative goal.
00:40:26.693 --> 00:40:32.400
Hearts are well, you know, although I don't think it's wrong.
00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:44.074
You know, when I was listening to Message for Happiness and Moms Are Forever and got that music and that experience, I think that that isn't necessarily a bad thing.
00:40:44.155 --> 00:40:45.838
I think, you know, Wonderful Life, right?
00:40:46.338 --> 00:40:51.105
I don't think Wonderful Life is trying to convert you to Mormonism or convert you to God.
00:40:51.125 --> 00:40:54.670
I don't think they're saying, look, after this movie, you now need to go to church.
00:40:54.710 --> 00:40:56.532
That's not Wonderful Life is saying.
00:40:56.994 --> 00:41:12.257
What it is saying through the music and through the messages and through the story and the compellingness of the story, he's saying that, you know, family and love and support and help and friendship and friends.
00:41:13.878 --> 00:41:17.967
It was that quote at the very end of it that says, I'm struggling to remember what it was.
00:41:18.068 --> 00:41:19.309
It's my favorite movie, and I can't remember.
00:41:19.329 --> 00:41:22.295
Something about the richest man.
00:41:23.217 --> 00:41:25.661
It's only if he has friends or something.
00:41:25.681 --> 00:41:26.001
Exactly.
00:41:26.141 --> 00:41:27.123
You have memories better than mine.
00:41:27.364 --> 00:41:28.806
To me, that's a very profound message.
00:41:28.965 --> 00:41:30.869
He's not telling me to go to church, nothing like that.
00:41:31.389 --> 00:41:39.242
And I think that's where Jeremy's section, this section, among with others, is it's inaccurate.
00:41:39.344 --> 00:41:41.025
I think it's misleading, disingenuous.
00:41:41.748 --> 00:41:43.070
And he's automatically...
00:41:43.617 --> 00:41:45.862
straight off the bat going into his own bias.
00:41:46.242 --> 00:41:50.027
He quotes Barton Goldsmith, a PhD, that feelings aren't facts.
00:41:50.849 --> 00:41:51.110
Sure.
00:41:51.130 --> 00:42:02.226
However, you can't separate facts from feelings because when we hear facts, it's common because of who we are and the very nature we are that we can have a feeling.
00:42:02.728 --> 00:42:05.251
We hear about a mother's intuition.
00:42:05.833 --> 00:42:11.342
There are mothers out there who've got this gift, this ability to know their own kids.
00:42:12.065 --> 00:42:15.449
And the family, it's built into the system.
00:42:15.849 --> 00:42:16.570
It's emotional.
00:42:16.751 --> 00:42:17.751
I believe it's spiritual.
00:42:18.592 --> 00:42:19.594
It's psychological.
00:42:19.733 --> 00:42:25.539
It's part of evolutionary, you know, to protect family, offspring, children, et cetera.
00:42:25.981 --> 00:42:26.762
Very powerful.
00:42:27.282 --> 00:42:32.206
Mothers, you know, moms who are hearing this will know this far more than me.
00:42:32.967 --> 00:42:37.032
My mom knew stuff that I don't know how she knew about me, but she did.
00:42:37.072 --> 00:42:43.746
And I think You know, sometimes they're based on facts or limited facts.
00:42:44.447 --> 00:42:46.429
And so, yeah, feelings are not facts.
00:42:46.570 --> 00:42:47.090
I get that.
00:42:47.451 --> 00:42:48.791
And I agree with that.
00:42:49.291 --> 00:42:52.755
But also, there's a relationship between feelings and facts.
00:42:53.195 --> 00:43:11.367
And if you go on to the next page, he's saying, using the argument that other people who said that their church is the only true church, like the fundamental, the FLDS, RLDS, and LDS, and other faiths who stand up and say that theirs is the only true church.
00:43:11.907 --> 00:43:20.400
And I think when they speak universally about the principles of love and kindness and long-suffering and forgiveness, I think that's true.
00:43:20.501 --> 00:43:27.130
I think those messages, those experiences are universal, and anyone can say those across any faith.
00:43:27.411 --> 00:43:28.472
But that's not a bad thing.
00:43:29.333 --> 00:43:46.036
Reynolds, it comes across my temperature that that's actually, you know, What he's trying to say is that the church cannot and does not have exclusivity on the Holy Ghost or truth or divinity.
00:43:46.717 --> 00:43:47.840
And it is correct.
00:43:47.900 --> 00:43:49.561
If that's what he's trying to say, it's correct.
00:43:50.163 --> 00:43:52.507
But I think he's going into this with his own biases.
00:43:53.228 --> 00:44:02.722
But he's also going further by saying that these spiritual experiences are actually, by interpretation, they're not spiritual experiences.
00:44:02.742 --> 00:44:03.563
They're just emotions.
00:44:03.623 --> 00:44:04.726
And it just...
00:44:05.666 --> 00:44:07.409
should be interpreted in that way.
00:44:07.449 --> 00:44:10.472
That's how I interpret what he's trying to do.
00:44:10.512 --> 00:44:11.735
So he's got his own biases.
00:44:12.456 --> 00:44:23.211
He talks about, I think I've heard him talk about cognitive bias, but he himself has got his own biases.
00:44:23.992 --> 00:44:29.661
And I think it's hard to analyze something when you yourself are part of the thing that you're analyzing.
00:44:30.657 --> 00:44:33.181
And so I think it's important to be more balanced document.
00:44:33.221 --> 00:44:35.264
And I see this throughout the document.
00:44:35.364 --> 00:44:38.248
I think in that sense, it's quite broad.
00:44:39.588 --> 00:44:43.775
The whole document, a lot of it is based on his own experience, his own biases.
00:44:43.855 --> 00:45:00.246
If I was writing this section, and I hope we have time to talk about this in this podcast, I would share several or a couple of very profound experiences that are explainable, that are profoundly spiritual, It certainly didn't come from me.
00:45:00.266 --> 00:45:04.150
I have no power to create these experiences that I'm thinking of.
00:45:04.771 --> 00:45:12.139
But I would have shared some of that in a way in this section and given the reader a balanced perspective.
00:45:13.601 --> 00:45:18.887
You know, not trying to convince the reader that these experiences are not from God or not from the Spirit.
00:45:19.268 --> 00:45:20.789
And that's what I get from this section.
00:45:21.250 --> 00:45:27.255
But I would have given a more balanced position that, yes, you can look at it in this way.
00:45:27.295 --> 00:45:28.637
That's one way of looking at that.
00:45:29.250 --> 00:45:30.371
Nothing to do with spirituality.
00:45:30.391 --> 00:45:31.293
It's purely emotional.
00:45:31.512 --> 00:45:32.934
You can get to it from anywhere.
00:45:32.954 --> 00:45:34.016
Anyone can see them.
00:45:34.358 --> 00:45:35.478
It's all universal or whatever.
00:45:35.518 --> 00:45:40.567
And it's just part of that physiological evolutionary component of the human experience.
00:45:42.409 --> 00:45:50.481
But then I think you need to give the other side where people have had real experiences that for them, those experiences are very real, very profound.
00:45:51.503 --> 00:45:54.347
The other thing as well I want to highlight here, this is an important thread distinction, I think.
00:45:54.967 --> 00:46:07.244
In my experiences, I think this is lots of people have had these similar experiences What happened to me couldn't, it was no doubt, it was an outside external force.
00:46:07.264 --> 00:46:11.532
It's not something I could have created or influenced in any way whatsoever.
00:46:12.452 --> 00:46:24.130
And what happened, there's no way that the things that happen in this situation couldn't have happened without some other external force.
00:46:24.791 --> 00:46:33.581
There was a force that was in place that was behaving and acting in a certain way and implode certain things that were not coincidental.
00:46:33.601 --> 00:46:39.126
And I think that, for me at least, that was very, very profound and very, very significant.
00:46:39.567 --> 00:46:45.833
And many people have those kind of experiences and they're real and they're really real.
00:46:46.614 --> 00:46:47.313
And I believe that.
00:46:47.815 --> 00:46:56.163
And I'm speaking from somebody who's not religious necessarily, not as religious and more spiritual and more universal.
00:46:56.182 --> 00:47:08.909
And there's no way I could or even would write off the physical evidence as well as the spiritual evidence that I had, and I had even since leaving the church.
00:47:09.431 --> 00:47:22.208
So I think the CS letter, this is an example where in this section he goes straight into it in his own biases, and it's deliberately leading people in a certain direction.
00:47:22.869 --> 00:47:47.672
And the danger here, Jim, is that the risk is that individuals who've had a real experience real experience with the spirit that they now discount that and think well it's just an emotional experience and it's a bit like the lion king because and they feel silly because hey it's like the lion king and and that's kind of absurd i think that's the word that you use
00:47:50.275 --> 00:48:05.289
well you raise two issues that i think are are interesting and i want to explore a little bit This whole issue of cognitive bias is something John Dillon grilled me about when I was on his podcast.
00:48:06.132 --> 00:48:23.376
And he kept asking me, it's like, well, how do you know, I mean, if you were raised as a Muslim, if you were raised as a Catholic, if you were raised outside of your faith tradition, wouldn't you be saying the same thing about your own spirituality and spiritual experience?
00:48:23.436 --> 00:48:26.161
You know, and Jeremy Reynolds gets into that in the CDS letter too.
00:48:27.233 --> 00:48:33.762
And he talks about how everybody outside the church sort of frames their spirituality this way too.
00:48:33.842 --> 00:48:40.590
And they talk about how the spirit has told them that the Catholic church is true or that the Jehovah's Witnesses are true or whatever else.
00:48:41.510 --> 00:48:51.041
And in my reply, I get into the fact that that's really not how a lot of other churches frame spiritual experiences.
00:48:51.762 --> 00:49:01.780
They don't, you know, Catholics don't, have testimony meetings where people stand up and talk about having a spiritual witness that the Pope is the true authority of God.
00:49:01.820 --> 00:49:04.884
It's just not the way they're structured.
00:49:04.923 --> 00:49:21.485
It doesn't mean they're not having spiritual experiences, but it does mean that if we try to frame everybody else's spiritual experiences in a Latter-day Saint context, we're demonstrating our own cognitive bias.
00:49:22.338 --> 00:49:36.538
And, you know, I've thought many times, I answered John Dillon, it's like there is no way to answer that question because I can't know what my life would have been like in any other context.
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:52.331
And if I were to leave the church, I would still be taking with me so much of what the church has taught me without even realizing.
00:49:52.952 --> 00:50:08.831
And as I listen to you talk and your experience, you have still held on to, for instance, you say you believe we have a spirit inside of a body, which is something that the church has taught you.
00:50:08.851 --> 00:50:10.775
It's not universal.
00:50:10.934 --> 00:50:12.476
I mean, it's not exclusive to the church.
00:50:12.516 --> 00:50:17.043
There are plenty of other religious traditions that teach the same kind of thing.
00:50:17.083 --> 00:50:18.483
But I...
00:50:20.065 --> 00:50:31.702
I am hearing you process spiritual experiences through a lifetime of experience on your part within the church.
00:50:32.583 --> 00:50:47.884
And I don't know that there's any way to sort of separate that, or even if you would want to, because I think you have taken with you the parts of what you were taught that continue to resonate with you and have left behind the parts that do not.
00:50:49.126 --> 00:51:03.862
But When I look at that and when I look at all the claims of exclusivity are so unimportant to me now.
00:51:04.722 --> 00:51:06.485
I mean, I'm willing to argue them.
00:51:06.585 --> 00:51:07.746
I'm willing to discuss them.
00:51:09.047 --> 00:51:13.974
That was the first question John Dillon asked me is, do you believe this is the only true church?
00:51:15.474 --> 00:51:21.012
And my answer to that question is, is, yes, but.
00:51:22.936 --> 00:51:25.659
And the but is, what does that mean?
00:51:26.539 --> 00:51:28.443
What do you mean when I say it's the only true church?
00:51:30.144 --> 00:51:54.434
What I mean by it is that we are the church that has the responsibility to bless the entire world and has the authority to do that, and it is an assignment of responsibility not a boast of exclusivity, if that makes any sense.
00:51:54.936 --> 00:52:18.173
That's the only way I can sort of embrace that in a way that makes sense to me, because I think everybody eventually, I've become somewhat of a universalist, I believe everybody eventually gets back to where they need to get and that we have been given as members of the church greater responsibility to facilitate that universal process.
00:52:19.135 --> 00:52:32.489
And I think that's a very different answer or a different meaning of what that means from your rank and file member that'll stand up at a testimony meeting and say, I know this is the only true church.
00:52:34.610 --> 00:52:45.478
They're doing that to sort of set up a wall and say, okay, we have this exclusive access to something that nobody else has access to, and aren't we great?
00:52:46.679 --> 00:53:01.376
And the Scriptures are replete with condemnations of that attitude, no more so than in the Book of Mormon, when they talk about the rameumptom, where people stand up and talk about how great it is that we're saved and everybody else is going to hell.
00:53:03.237 --> 00:53:11.599
I just don't fathom why that kind of a faith would be appealing to anyone.
00:53:12.641 --> 00:53:17.146
When I had that kind of a faith, and I think I did, it frightened me.
00:53:18.028 --> 00:53:27.501
It made me sad to think that everybody outside the church wasn't going to get to return to Heavenly Father, that they weren't going to get all these blessings.
00:53:28.244 --> 00:53:31.288
And so I believed that, and it broke my heart.
00:53:31.547 --> 00:53:32.449
It made me sad.
00:53:33.186 --> 00:53:40.052
And the more I experience God, the more I experience the Spirit, the less I believe that.
00:53:40.432 --> 00:53:45.659
The more I realize, okay, the church has been given a charge.
00:53:46.699 --> 00:53:52.465
The church has been given a responsibility to bless the lives of the whole earth.
00:53:53.326 --> 00:54:04.815
It has not been given a medal that it's supposed to congratulate itself with and just stand on its rameumptom and say, and chuckle at all of the people that are going to burn in the flames of hell.
00:54:04.856 --> 00:54:26.028
And so better understanding that, it becomes, okay, and I think that's part of the reason why so many people in the church, Ian, have sort of cast you off, is that in order for their faith to be valid, your happiness, your spirituality can't be.
00:54:26.068 --> 00:54:28.853
You have to be lying.
00:54:29.793 --> 00:54:32.376
or somehow their faith is shaken.
00:54:33.277 --> 00:54:45.688
And I see that as such a fragile and weak kind of faith in the church that relies on that, that relies on anyone else's unhappiness to justify their own happiness.
00:54:46.610 --> 00:54:53.056
And so, as I look at this and I look at Jeremy, I have met Jeremy Runnels.
00:54:53.135 --> 00:55:05.659
I think I've talked about that experience on this podcast, but it's so much easier to take pot shots at Jeremy when you haven't met him.
00:55:06.621 --> 00:55:09.344
You know, I found this in my own experience.
00:55:09.463 --> 00:55:21.777
It's much easier for people to take pot shots at me for my CES letter reply or for whatever else I've said until they actually talk to me, until they've met me, and then it's all of a sudden, okay, there's a whole person here.
00:55:22.277 --> 00:55:25.961
There's not just the piece that I'm seeing on a piece of paper.
00:55:26.657 --> 00:55:35.047
There is a whole person, and that whole person has value, and that whole person is a child of God, regardless of where their church records are.
00:55:35.088 --> 00:55:43.898
And God loves each of them with an intensity and a totality that we cannot understand.
00:55:45.179 --> 00:56:13.081
And that has sort of reinforced my spiritual convictions about God's love for everyone, Through my experience as a parent, I think about, okay, if my kids were to do something terrible, and I've been blessed with the greatest kids anybody could ask for, but I think, okay, well, what is it that they could do that would make me say, all right, you've fallen short.
00:56:13.701 --> 00:56:15.643
You can no longer be my child.
00:56:15.704 --> 00:56:18.606
We can no longer have a relationship.
00:56:19.268 --> 00:56:22.873
If they were mass murderers, I would be disappointed.
00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:25.050
to say the least.
00:56:25.652 --> 00:56:36.369
But I would continue to love them and I would visit them in prison and I would continue to maintain a relationship with them and do everything I could to help them.
00:56:37.431 --> 00:56:52.153
And the idea that God is going to cut us off because we didn't join the right church or even that we did something terrible in this life, that he is going to cut us off for eternity, forever, with no hope of reconciliation.
00:56:53.121 --> 00:56:54.885
That doesn't make a lick of sense to me.
00:56:55.385 --> 00:57:00.632
The Spirit does not testify to me that that is a true principle.
00:57:01.434 --> 00:57:24.525
And when I embrace more universal principles, when I embrace everyone, when I recognize that people in and out of the church are still children of God, and that people who leave the church do not leave their decency behind when they do so, the Spirit reinforces the reality that that is absolutely true.
00:57:24.545 --> 00:58:00.126
And so that's what I'm pursuing, and I continue to do so within the boundaries of the Church, and I expect to do so within the boundaries of the Church for my mortal life, and I do so recognizing that that is not the journey of everyone, and it is not my responsibility to condemn to judge, to belittle, to do anything to cast aspersions on those who have chosen a different path, if that makes any sense.
00:58:01.288 --> 00:58:02.708
So that's kind of where I am.
00:58:04.110 --> 00:58:06.173
We seem to be up against the hour.
00:58:06.795 --> 00:58:08.657
Do you have any concluding thoughts?
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:16.686
I do have one other piece I always want to bring in real quick in regards, and I appreciate you sharing those thoughts.
00:58:17.427 --> 00:58:22.088
I've got this and probably some concluding thoughts after that.
00:58:22.168 --> 00:58:26.853
So we're close to closing this podcast, which has been fascinating.
00:58:26.914 --> 00:58:28.775
And I don't think the story is here.
00:58:28.795 --> 00:58:31.659
I think there's so much more we can discuss and share on this.
00:58:32.139 --> 00:58:43.592
And I think getting back to the CES letter, I don't doubt Jeremy's authenticity and his genuineness as an individual.
00:58:43.612 --> 00:58:50.985
I do question the level of bias that I see frequently throughout the CS letter.
00:58:51.025 --> 00:58:54.210
It's not everywhere, but it certainly is in quite a lot of places.
00:58:54.931 --> 00:59:00.539
And I just want to highlight another example of what I think is a problem with the CS letter.
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:04.344
And it's in the same section because we're talking about that.
00:59:05.146 --> 00:59:11.655
And it's the bit where he quotes David Witmere, which talks about some revelations of man, some revelations of the devil.
00:59:12.056 --> 00:59:17.344
He talks about we've all fallen revelation came through the stone and some revelations of God, etc.
00:59:17.364 --> 00:59:22.242
So he talks about the The stone, Brazil is referring to the stone and the hat.
00:59:22.842 --> 00:59:28.849
I heard about the stone and the hat years ago on my mission and put it right down to Anfield Law and stuff.
00:59:29.570 --> 00:59:32.853
I didn't have any problem with it back then if it was real.
00:59:32.873 --> 00:59:33.954
I thought it was quite fascinating.
00:59:33.974 --> 00:59:35.257
I know a lot of people that have a problem with that.
00:59:35.918 --> 00:59:40.282
And then when the church official came out and said, yeah, he put a stone in the hat, he used a stone.
00:59:40.342 --> 00:59:41.804
And by the way, here's the actual stone.
00:59:41.864 --> 00:59:43.867
I think it was in the end sign.
00:59:44.507 --> 00:59:49.079
I think the reaction of a lot of people were, astonishment, maybe dismay.
00:59:49.099 --> 00:59:51.922
And it sounds quite ludicrous.
00:59:53.023 --> 00:59:55.865
It might surprise you that for me, it didn't.
00:59:56.226 --> 01:00:00.469
I thought it was amazing that you could get revelation from the stone.
01:00:00.510 --> 01:00:16.925
And the reason why I share that and the reason why I'm highlighting, and yet another example, this is less than that I think is quite biased, is that if you look at the Jeremy Reynolds, how he references this, I get the impression he's trying to make the church look absurd, look ridiculous.
01:00:17.793 --> 01:00:26.222
It's hard not to come to that interpretation, reading this and many of the sections throughout the CS letter.
01:00:27.222 --> 01:00:40.896
By talking about this and referring to it in this way and highlighting the stone in the hat, which it is for many absurd, not for me, by the way, but it is absurd.
01:00:42.456 --> 01:00:52.737
It tells me that there's a bias there and is out to not trivialized, but he's out to make the church look ridiculous and look absurd.
01:00:52.777 --> 01:00:54.177
That's how I interpret this.
01:00:54.798 --> 01:01:17.940
And so, just going back to the stone for a minute, the reason why I don't have a problem with the stone is that, and I think a lot of people, this will resonate with them, if you think about any object that you've got, okay, that you, any possession that's sentimental, personal, emotional, spiritual value, have you...
01:01:20.994 --> 01:01:26.059
gained any spirituality from that, any meaning from that.
01:01:26.739 --> 01:01:27.101
I have.
01:01:27.501 --> 01:01:28.181
I'll give you an example.
01:01:28.581 --> 01:01:30.344
I have a very old Timex watch.
01:01:32.146 --> 01:01:32.686
It's very old.
01:01:32.706 --> 01:01:33.568
I sound really old.
01:01:34.148 --> 01:01:36.251
It was given to me by my mom, actually.
01:01:37.052 --> 01:01:38.213
I was coming out of the hospital.
01:01:38.253 --> 01:01:39.034
I had appendicitis.
01:01:39.054 --> 01:01:40.034
I was in hospital for a few days.
01:01:40.494 --> 01:01:41.996
Going back a bit, I was seven years old.
01:01:42.757 --> 01:01:48.744
And my mom picked me up, and I was walking out of the hospital feeling pretty crap.
01:01:48.945 --> 01:01:50.005
I'd just done this operation.
01:01:50.657 --> 01:01:51.338
but pretty low.
01:01:51.458 --> 01:01:55.643
And my mum took me to a cafe and she bought me a, we didn't have much money.
01:01:56.704 --> 01:02:00.789
This might sound a bit absurd, but she bought me a milk chocolate.
01:02:00.889 --> 01:02:04.333
I think it was the only time we ever could afford to buy them stuff.
01:02:04.474 --> 01:02:05.474
We really had nothing.
01:02:05.956 --> 01:02:07.938
We didn't go out to restaurants, I think, ever.
01:02:08.038 --> 01:02:08.498
We just didn't.
01:02:08.679 --> 01:02:09.179
We had no money.
01:02:10.380 --> 01:02:11.461
It was a treat.
01:02:11.501 --> 01:02:12.422
We went to this cafe.
01:02:12.483 --> 01:02:14.826
The cafe's still there, by the way.
01:02:14.846 --> 01:02:16.867
It was the Tartan Cafe.
01:02:17.088 --> 01:02:18.429
Tartan Cafe in Castlebrook.
01:02:19.041 --> 01:02:21.623
And she bought me a little chocolate.
01:02:22.045 --> 01:02:24.347
And she said, I've got something for you.
01:02:24.367 --> 01:02:25.188
She gave me a gift.
01:02:25.248 --> 01:02:26.989
It was a little Timex watch.
01:02:28.751 --> 01:02:31.353
And I've got it in my office.
01:02:31.574 --> 01:02:32.894
And it doesn't work anymore.
01:02:32.934 --> 01:02:34.016
I should get it working again.
01:02:34.076 --> 01:02:36.077
But I treasure it.
01:02:37.018 --> 01:02:37.800
Treasure that moment.
01:02:37.820 --> 01:02:43.525
It reminds me of something that was an act of kindness and love on the part of my mom.
01:02:44.445 --> 01:02:48.429
And, you know, time when we were close to the time back then at seven.
01:02:49.378 --> 01:02:52.702
I felt closer than I did later on in the years.
01:02:53.722 --> 01:02:54.903
And I will forget that.
01:02:55.043 --> 01:02:56.186
It's a very distinct memory.
01:02:56.226 --> 01:02:57.146
It's a very clear memory.
01:02:58.889 --> 01:03:01.871
And I've got this watch, this Timex watch.
01:03:02.773 --> 01:03:08.778
I don't claim to get revelation for the world through the watch.
01:03:09.940 --> 01:03:12.262
It's not like it's got any special powers.
01:03:12.322 --> 01:03:23.126
But for me, it's a very profound revelation triggers lots of positive experiences.
01:03:23.907 --> 01:03:28.172
And that's how I interpret that physical object.
01:03:29.594 --> 01:03:30.815
Have I got revelation from that?
01:03:30.875 --> 01:03:39.346
Well, if the memory of a very wonderful moment with my mom is a revelation, then yes.
01:03:40.887 --> 01:03:41.969
Is it spirituality?
01:03:42.210 --> 01:03:43.170
Yes, for me it is.
01:03:43.451 --> 01:03:44.952
Is it an emotional experience positive?
01:03:45.273 --> 01:03:45.793
Absolutely.
01:03:46.275 --> 01:03:47.817
Is it a revelation or inspiration?
01:03:48.157 --> 01:03:48.398
Yes.
01:03:49.153 --> 01:03:50.094
Does it come from God?
01:03:50.115 --> 01:03:51.117
Yes.
01:03:52.259 --> 01:03:55.503
Is it a universal principle associated with a physical object?
01:03:55.784 --> 01:03:56.626
Yes, I think so.
01:03:56.666 --> 01:04:03.996
And so, again, I think that's where the CS letter falls down, where it doesn't see the other side to physical objects.
01:04:04.818 --> 01:04:10.126
I can see why people have a problem with Joseph Smith having a sword of that and getting the revelation from that.
01:04:10.527 --> 01:04:13.992
I believe Joseph Smith believed that was happening, by the way.
01:04:14.012 --> 01:04:26.644
I don't doubt for one second Joseph Smith didn't believe or accept that revelation wasn't coming from the stone.
01:04:26.684 --> 01:04:35.114
I believe that he felt in a very real way that real revelations from God were being communicated to the stone.
01:04:35.295 --> 01:04:40.141
I believe he believed that totally, completely, 100%.
01:04:42.143 --> 01:04:44.606
Whether that was happening or not, that's up for debate.
01:04:45.985 --> 01:05:02.652
And so, the question is, is anything good, any universal principles or revelation that Joseph Smith learned or gleaned through the stone in the heart process?
01:05:03.353 --> 01:05:19.021
Well, yes, because he translated the Book of Mormon, or you could argue, translated it or wrote it or had other benefactors that wrote it with help, etc.
01:05:19.081 --> 01:05:20.483
That's another podcast for sure.
01:05:21.003 --> 01:05:29.516
And then we go back to the question, is there anything in the Book of Mormon that is universally good that came from the Stone in the Hat?
01:05:29.596 --> 01:05:30.217
Well, yes.
01:05:30.797 --> 01:05:35.262
I've said earlier that there's things in the Book of Mormon that if I read them right now, I'd think, yeah, that's good.
01:05:35.302 --> 01:05:35.824
That makes sense.
01:05:35.844 --> 01:05:36.344
That's a good thing.
01:05:36.704 --> 01:05:39.349
It doesn't mean that this is the only true church upon the face of the earth.
01:05:39.449 --> 01:05:39.989
For me, it doesn't.
01:05:40.353 --> 01:05:43.478
I don't interpret that as Joseph Smith being a true prophet.
01:05:45.119 --> 01:05:46.460
I don't see that anymore.
01:05:47.282 --> 01:05:52.708
I believe there were parts and times in Joseph's life that were good and genuine.
01:05:52.947 --> 01:05:54.289
I think there were some good elements.
01:05:54.590 --> 01:06:02.478
I think there was a darker side to him, a very bad side, I believe that, but I think there was some good in him for sure.
01:06:02.958 --> 01:06:04.862
I think at times there was good intent.
01:06:05.501 --> 01:06:14.152
I think that came through in what I think is a relatively 19th century texts in the Book of Mormon, good universal principles, they came through the stone of the heart.
01:06:14.692 --> 01:06:15.773
I had no problem with that.
01:06:16.233 --> 01:06:25.844
I just don't associate that or attribute that to being exclusive authority and the only prophet upon the face of the earth and the source of all truth and knowledge.
01:06:25.925 --> 01:06:28.007
I just don't see that anymore that I used to.
01:06:28.307 --> 01:06:35.956
But what I'm saying is that physical objects can generate spiritual, emotional, inspirational experiences.
01:06:36.036 --> 01:06:36.597
Is it just for me?
01:06:37.117 --> 01:06:50.309
And I think If Reynolds had shared that side in this section that we can associate, we can have those experiences with physical objects, I think it would be a more balanced document.
01:06:50.811 --> 01:06:58.163
So I just want to highlight that because that's another example of a level of bias and trying to make the church look ridiculous.
01:06:58.543 --> 01:07:02.268
And I think it does look ridiculous to many.
01:07:02.289 --> 01:07:03.731
You know, the story of the hat sounds absurd.
01:07:04.632 --> 01:07:05.193
I know people...
01:07:05.666 --> 01:07:10.351
friends of mine who are in the church who think it's just the strangest thing they've ever heard in their life.
01:07:11.012 --> 01:07:13.434
I have no problem with it for reasons that I've shared.
01:07:14.195 --> 01:07:17.340
But again, I can see why people would say that.
01:07:17.719 --> 01:07:24.327
And so these are a couple of examples, for me at least, who've gone through the CS letter and tried to understand it.
01:07:24.867 --> 01:07:37.530
And again, this is another example of bias and making the church, coming to the document and having a position before you come in and Going out and researching information, that just confirms your bias.
01:07:37.550 --> 01:07:39.512
And so I have a problem with that.
01:07:39.612 --> 01:07:41.835
I just think it's not as balanced as it could
01:07:43.998 --> 01:07:44.038
be.
01:07:44.057 --> 01:07:54.110
Well, I'm probably right there, but I appreciate you sharing your personal spiritual experiences.
01:07:54.130 --> 01:08:02.922
And the story about the Timex watch, I think, is really instructive, is that the Lord uses...
01:08:03.489 --> 01:08:06.134
what's on hand to touch our hearts.
01:08:07.456 --> 01:08:11.922
He speaks to us individually through our own personal individual experiences.
01:08:12.922 --> 01:08:17.128
So, yeah, there's a lot more we can say, but I think we are out of time here.
01:08:17.168 --> 01:08:21.194
So let's save that until the next episode.
01:08:21.676 --> 01:08:26.802
And we look forward to seeing you all again in our next episode of Inside Out.
01:08:26.842 --> 01:08:27.923
Thank you very much, Ian.
01:08:28.185 --> 01:08:29.365
Thank you, Jim.
01:08:29.426 --> 01:08:31.869
Thank you.