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Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
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My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the free Ian Wilkes.
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And...
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Based on our last conversation, Ian, you know, I'm sitting here panicking about what it's like to live in a, well, we got a little heated in that last conversation, at least I did.
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You were trying very, very hard to be respectful, and I'm very grateful for that.
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But you are also across the border, and I'm kind of jealous.
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I'm hoping that you're going to let me come be a refugee up there.
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Well, you're more than welcome.
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I thought when he said free, you were referring to the Trump election.
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Well, I am.
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I know you are.
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And I was trying to find anything positive that might come from that.
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Since our podcast, and I mentioned this on, I did share this with you on our messenger, there's been a significant spike in Americans at inquiring about residency in Canada.
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Right.
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Like 10,000 hits in one day.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, I want to escape to Scotland, but none of my family seems to want to go with me.
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Yeah, Scotland, I'd love to move to Scotland.
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It's a bit windy.
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It's a bit windy.
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It's a bit chilly.
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I have, I think, sort of a reverse seasonal affective disorder in that I love rain unless I'm tracting in it.
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And then I don't love rain.
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But Scottish weather, I just adore weather like that.
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Yeah, no, me too, me too.
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And so, yeah, so, yeah, Canada is, yeah, if you want to come to Canada, you hang out with us and get a little bit of freedom.
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And, you know, we're happy to have you.
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But, yeah, and very excited about today's podcast.
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Yes, today's podcast has absolutely nothing to do with that.
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So I just wanted to sort of get that out of the way.
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I'm very excited because we've got a really fascinating guest that I've gotten an opportunity to get to know in the last couple of days.
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She is, I don't know what the official title is, but she's somebody who's got a very large following.
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She has 118,000 followers.
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followers on YouTube for her channel.
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And she does a podcast show called 132 Problems, Revisiting Mormon Polygamy.
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And our mutual friend, Steven Peinecker, said we need to talk to her.
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And I think he was right because she, I think, is a very important voice in the conversation.
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She's got a really fascinating perspective, and so I'm very grateful that she's willing to join us here on our podcast.
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Please welcome everybody, Michelle Brady-Stone.
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Michelle, how are you?
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I'm well.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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And I have to say, I felt really left out of that beginning conversation because I was laughing because in 2016, with that election, I was searching, how do I move to Canada?
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And currently, my husband is looking for properties in Scotland.
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So there we go.
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Yeah.
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He's desperate to move to Scotland.
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I get too cold, but I'm willing to go.
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So maybe you and your husband and me will probably have to end up as roommates.
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Okay.
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We'll see what happens.
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But with all the emigration talk out of the way...
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Just wanted to bring you on and give you an opportunity.
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I'm very interested, you know, we've had some conversations now about your perspective and where you are in the church.
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But I think there are probably a number of people who'll be listening to this who don't know anything about you.
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And I'm just...
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want to give you the floor and give you an opportunity to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of background on who you are and where you're coming from.
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Okay, so it's a little bit tricky to introduce myself because I think people want to try to, when we meet someone, we want to try to categorize them and try to understand them.
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And I am the first to admit I don't fit very well into any category.
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So here is a quick introduction.
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I am A mother of 13 children who I've spent my life homeschooling.
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I still have six children at home.
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I have been a lifelong member of the church.
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I am very recently descended from fully Mormon polygamist, not a fundamentalist, but my great-grandfather was called by Joseph F.
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Smith to go to Mexico and take a second wife in 1906, which some of your listeners may know is two years after the second manifesto.
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So my grandfather was a post-manifesto polygamist called by the who told him, I'm not calling you as the president of the church, I'm calling you as the president of the priesthood, is what we've been passed down in our family.
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So I was raised believing that polygamy was the highest, holiest law of the gospel, that we would live in Zion, that we would live in the celestial kingdom, and I just...
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I was taught beautiful stories of my great grandmothers and thought someday I'll understand and it's going to be beautiful.
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And I genuinely thought that it was a shame that we couldn't live the higher laws so that Jesus could come.
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That was my perspective for a very long time.
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And anyway, so I have gone through several different iterations of my faith.
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I So that's my most sort of conservative perspective.
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I also have listened to many voices since pretty much the beginning.
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I'm a voracious student of the scriptures.
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I also have listened to John DeLinn since the very beginning, at least I did for many, many years.
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I read a couple of Denver Snuffers books.
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I've kind of been everywhere.
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I have I will admit I have struggled to stay in the church there have been multiple times when I have felt very strongly that um I needed to leave but I am one who feels like I receive answers from the divine I guess I could call myself a mystic I've I've always been told to stay in the church has is the answer I've received every time I've hit one of those breaking points I have um Anyway, I have gay children.
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I am navigating many different worlds in many different ways.
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So to cut to the chase, about, gosh, it's been over 10 years ago, my husband one day came to me and said, he was reading the Book of Mormon, and he said, I don't think polygamy was ever of God.
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And that floored me.
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And in my TBM mindset, I thought, I need to save my apostate husband before he goes fully apostate.
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And I started studying the scriptures in order to prove to him that polygamy was indeed of God, as I knew because my faithful ancestors and the presidents of the church had always taught.
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So I started studying, and this has got to be more than 10 years ago.
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Anyway, I became...
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I was astonished at how little I knew about it, how naive I was, how ignorant I was.
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And the more I studied, the more it became clear to me that polygamy was never of God.
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It threw me into one iteration of a faith crisis, because how could I be so certain about something and be so wrong?
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And how could I think I know better than all of the church leaders that have said this forever and everybody else?
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And so I had to seek out support and voices anyway I started a Facebook group in that space to be able to talk about it and as a result many polygamists actually joined particularly polygamist men and they tagged their friends and I ended up being able to engage with the very best scholars of polygamy the theologians who argue in favor of polygamy.
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So I was able to encounter all of the best arguments in favor of polygamy, which is really valuable for me as a critical thinker.
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I like to encounter the best arguments on the other side.
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So I was able to really solidify my views and go, that's the best you've got.
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Those are the arguments in favor of polygamy.
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So for a long time, I was in that space where as I didn't delve into the history fully, but I knew that Joseph Smith started polygamy and I knew it wasn't of God.
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And I was in that space for a long time.
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I also knew that whatever Joseph Smith was doing was different from what Brigham Young and the later Utah polygamists did.
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But he was obviously the originator.
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Anyway, I had an unusually difficult 2020 and 2021.
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I know it was difficult for everybody.
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My circumstances were quite extreme during those years.
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I lost a child in 2020 and I lost another child in 2021.
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the tragedy of that was magnified by what was happening in the world and um and so that's that was one of the times that I felt like I needed to leave the church it just it was a very difficult time but um anyway after after that period I just felt very strongly kind of as I was um I had I was recovering and I was you know um um I don't know how to explain it it wasn't It wasn't out of my trauma or anything like that.
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It was just kind of trying to understand my relationship with God.
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I navigated that.
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And after I came through that, I just felt a strong confirmation that I needed to talk to other women about what I had learned about polygamy.
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And that was kind of the instigation for my channel.
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It's called 132 Problems because it's section 132.
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For anyone that isn't aware, that is where Mormons get polygamy.
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That's the only place in our scriptures that is polygamy positive.
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And then I started my podcast knowing that polygamy wasn't of God, but knowing that Joseph Smith had started it.
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A year into my podcast, after intensive study, I came to the conclusion that actually Joseph Smith hadn't started it.
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That was very challenging for me to come to believe.
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It took a lot to convince me of that.
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And it took a lot more to convince me to speak aloud about it because I knew the giant...
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file of crap I would be stepping right into the middle of, right?
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I'm fighting on every single front.
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So anyway, for about the last year and a half, that's the space I...
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Well, for the last two and a half years, I've been doing my podcast.
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For about the last year and a half, I've become a full-time historian delving into the documents of the restoration.
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And it's been...
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Actually, I spend...
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usually between 60, 70 hours a week, researching, preparing, doing what I'm working on.
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And it's become, anyway, it's very fulfilling.
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It's very satisfying.
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It's very important.
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I've developed a very thick skin.
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I'm a lot of people's favorite person to hate.
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I have a lot of people coming after my membership in the church.
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And that's, anyway, that's kind of where I am at this point.
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All right.
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That seems to be a very succinct summation.
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And I know what it's like to be a person that everybody loves to hate.
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So I have solidarity with you in that regard.
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So 60, 70 hours spent a week doing this.
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That's a lot of hours.
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Especially with somebody with six children at home.
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How do you juggle that?
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Well, I should clarify, after the difficult time of 2020 and 2021, I no longer homeschooled my children.
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That was part of that process of just, so my children are in school now, which gives me, frees up a whole lot of time.
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And as a mother of a large family, I've always been pretty productive, pretty good at getting a lot of things done and not much of a sleeper.
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Yeah.
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So my kids know I'm always available.
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I'm always interruptible, but I usually have, I'm usually on my computer, unfortunately.
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So other than when I'm directly interacting with them and doing things with them, I'm able, I don't make any money from what I'm doing, but I do have enough coming in that I've been able to hire house help.
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So I have help cleaning my house, which has freed up a lot of time as well.
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I really appreciate that.
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So where is your husband in this?
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Is your husband equally passionate about this?
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Or does he just think, oh, here's Michelle going off on her little hobby horse?
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Yes, the second.
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He's very sweet.
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He's very supportive.
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He doesn't want me to talk to him about it all the time.
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Very understandably.
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I laugh that he created a monster.
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It's his fault.
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He started all of this, right?
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He was the one that...
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That read the scriptures and came and told me that I was wrong about polygamy.
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So now he's on board.
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We have a very similar perspective of the gospel.
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We are both active in the church.
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We both navigate that in a nuanced way.
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And so it's not been, we don't have an interfaith marriage by any means, which I'm really thankful for.
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I
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mean,
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I support people who do, but.
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
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Does he agree with you that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy?
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He agrees with me that polygamy was never of God.
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He is not yet fully convinced that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, but he also doesn't listen to my podcast.
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He does sometimes, but whenever he's like, I'm not convinced, I'm like, well, you're not listening.
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We talked a little bit.
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I mean, I've got this weird hobby horse that has nothing to do with the church, but I'm what they call an Oxfordian.
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I believe that William Shakespeare was the pen name of Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford.
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I'm even writing a book about it.
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And my wife is like, well, you know, good for you.
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I couldn't care less.
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And pays absolutely no attention to it.
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It's like, well, whatever makes you happy and whatever...
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you'd like to do, then go ahead and do it.
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So it's just really interesting to see how those kinds of, when you find something that really animates you and is something that you're very passionate about, it's sometimes difficult to find other people who are able to share that.
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But you seem to have found quite a following.
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Of those 118,000 followers that I can see on YouTube, how many do you actively sort of engage with on a regular basis?
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Oh, it depends.
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I think I have an interesting situation because I haven't had the time or energy to do them recently, but I did a lot of shorts as well.
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And those got way more views than my, you know, sometimes my videos are two and a half hours.
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They're often an hour and a half to two hours.
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So, so not that, Not everybody that watches the short, say, will watch the full videos.
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But I do have definitely a very large support system and a very large community of people who are very passionately engaged in these topics.
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I shouldn't even say it's my community.
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It's not like I'm the first person that's been in this space.
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I thought I was.
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When I started my podcast, I thought it was insane.
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I thought it was the dumbest thing ever to start a podcast on polygamy in 2022.
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You know, I couldn't...
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Like, it seemed totally irrelevant.
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So it's actually been amazing to see how extremely relevant this topic is to so many people.
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It really is kind of a...
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I don't know.
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It's just...
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It is as important now as it ever has been.
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And it's as interesting...
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It's more interesting now than it ever has been because we have so much more access to sources.
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Like, everybody can dig it.
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You know, when I do...
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my episodes, I'm able to show people the document I'm talking about, and I'm able to link to it so people can go do their own research, which I think is tremendously valuable.
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We're no longer dependent on gatekeepers to, they have the sources, they tell us what they say.
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I really like that we can go do our own research in this day and age.
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It's a huge blessing to us.
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Yeah, you've talked about how the Joseph Smith Papers project is a real game changer, and I think that's absolutely true.
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So, yeah, we have access to sources as lay people and we don't have to rely on historians necessarily to filter out what information they feel is, is useful or is not.
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Uh, so, uh, and I think what you're doing, it's, it's, I mean, I, I am not in, in this space and as I, I've told you before, um, my faith is not contingent in any way on whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
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I still firmly believe that he was, but I'm not really, I mean, this isn't something where I've investigated the sources as meticulously as you have, or something that I feel really compelled to explore.
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But it does seem to be a subject that is gaining traction.
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and surprising a lot of people, including traditional historians.
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I think I've seen Richard Bushman comment on how surprised he is that all of a sudden we're revisiting polygamy and whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist so long after the fact.
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And more and more people are, I think, coming along to your point of view on that.
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Why do you think that is?
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Do you think it's just that there's more access now or is there something else driving this?
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Well, no, I very much agree with you.
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I think, and I won't take the time to trace the whole history of what has happened in the polygamy discussion, but you know, it has been contested from the very beginning, right?
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This was contested during Joseph Smith's lifetime, the accusations that he was a polygamist, his denials, and that has continued since with this debate.
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And in the In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, people, the debate continued to some extent, although it's been, I guess I am tracing it a bit.
00:18:38.993 --> 00:18:49.624
It's been an interesting topic because the church, was a polygamist and the church was the most determined to say that Joseph Smith was a polygamist during the polygamist era of the church.
00:18:50.064 --> 00:18:58.111
Then we got into the early 1900s and the mid-1900s and it continued on that Joseph was not a polygamist and those were anti-Mormon lies, right?
00:18:58.652 --> 00:19:00.492
And that continued on for quite a while.
00:19:00.553 --> 00:19:07.720
Then we got that period of openness, Camelot, in Mormon history when we had Leonard Arrington and D.
00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:09.141
Michael Quinn was being given access.
00:19:09.161 --> 00:19:12.243
So new sources were found and they were...
00:19:12.784 --> 00:19:26.398
the Mormon polygamist sources in the, like for my perspective, the Mormon polygamist in their effort to prove that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist started to create a lot of evidence in order to prove that.
00:19:26.439 --> 00:19:31.523
And that's what was found again, rediscovered in the 70s, 80s, 90s.
00:19:32.545 --> 00:19:38.171
And then at the same time, the RLDS church was going through a change where they were going much more progressive.
00:19:38.230 --> 00:19:42.732
Their top leaders had been trained in progressive Methodist schools.
00:19:42.772 --> 00:19:49.185
They wanted to become much more ecumenical and much less Mormon, so they were motivated to step away from Joseph Smith.
00:19:49.205 --> 00:19:50.648
I don't want to speak on behalf of them.
00:19:50.709 --> 00:20:11.656
This is my understanding, and maybe a member of the community of Christ would have a slightly different take on it, but they did go extremely liberal extremely quickly, and as a result, the church really broke, and some of Most of the largest congregations and the highest tithe paying congregations split off from the church and they continue to be RLDS.
00:20:11.737 --> 00:20:14.585
They're called the Restoration Branches and the Community of Christ.
00:20:15.247 --> 00:20:17.252
The biggest issue wasn't even Joseph's polygamy.
00:20:17.272 --> 00:20:18.957
It was actually the ordination of women.
00:20:19.713 --> 00:20:21.516
And that happened in the 80s, right?
00:20:21.576 --> 00:20:32.305
So the community of Christ says that Joseph was never a polygamist, but many of their congregations also don't really look to Joseph Smith as a prophet either, and they don't really rely on the Book of Mormon in the same way.
00:20:32.345 --> 00:20:41.553
They are, as I said, much less Mormon and much more ecumenical, whereas the restoration branches, the RLDS Church, still adamantly claim that Joseph was a polygamist.
00:20:41.932 --> 00:20:47.678
That's where Richard and Pamela Price came from, who wrote the series Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy.
00:20:47.718 --> 00:20:55.932
And so it's been an interesting coming together now because in the 90s and the early 2000s, everyone thought that the case was closed, right?
00:20:55.951 --> 00:20:57.615
The opposition dropped their case.
00:20:57.694 --> 00:21:01.803
The tug of war between the RLDS and the Mormon church, the RLDS dropped.
00:21:02.344 --> 00:21:06.111
And the LDS then said, okay, it's settled that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
00:21:06.151 --> 00:21:09.674
But since that time, very little work has been done.
00:21:09.694 --> 00:21:25.128
And since that time, we've had the Trice's books, which, you know, aren't perfect, and they are very focused on their religion, but they have done incredible work to bring out sources that we as Mormons were not aware of.
00:21:25.209 --> 00:21:28.090
We've just always ignored the RLDS sources, right?
00:21:28.111 --> 00:21:37.098
And then we also had Hugo Parejo's work done that showed us that there are actually no descendants, no polygamous descendants of Joseph Smith.
00:21:37.138 --> 00:21:43.428
He and Emma had not nine biological children, 11 children total, but we have shown through DNA that there are no other children.
00:21:43.468 --> 00:21:51.895
We've had the Joseph Smith papers open up online where we are seeing things that we have never seen before, that were never part of this discussion.
00:21:52.115 --> 00:21:57.582
I say often, it's very easy to believe someone's guilty when you've only heard the prosecution, right?
00:21:57.662 --> 00:22:02.547
We are getting in and digging out sources and people are learning things that they never knew before.
00:22:02.646 --> 00:22:11.416
So this combination of factors has given us all a whole new landscape that we hadn't seen.
00:22:11.457 --> 00:22:16.672
And the case Most people who just have read the histories, they've read Richard Bushman, they've read D.
00:22:16.692 --> 00:22:20.659
Michael Quinn, they've just assumed they're the experts and they know that this is settled and this is ridiculous.
00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:32.578
And I understand that perspective, but the people that are really digging into it, including the historians, some of whom I'm working closely with, the more they dig into it, they realize this is not what I thought.
00:22:32.778 --> 00:22:34.461
I thought we had such a strong case.
00:22:34.642 --> 00:22:36.925
I thought this was settled and they are realizing otherwise.
00:22:37.122 --> 00:22:39.444
Holy cow, this is not settled at all.
00:22:39.484 --> 00:22:44.112
There is far less evidence for Joseph's polygamy than I assumed that there was.
00:22:44.492 --> 00:22:46.695
And there is far more evidence against it.
00:22:47.135 --> 00:22:50.300
Most of them aren't ready to change their perspective on it.
00:22:50.821 --> 00:22:54.846
But more and more are realizing that there is absolutely a discussion to be had.
00:22:54.886 --> 00:22:58.932
And that's what I'm trying to do is say we need to have this discussion because...
00:22:59.682 --> 00:23:03.468
The case for Joseph's polygamy is not nearly as strong as it should be.
00:23:03.647 --> 00:23:08.454
Everybody needs to engage so that all sides can separate the wheat from the chaff.
00:23:08.494 --> 00:23:13.743
We can learn what are the good sources, what are the good arguments, and what are the weak sources and the weak arguments.
00:23:14.585 --> 00:23:26.864
Well, I want to bring Ian in on this because I'm very interested, Ian, you know, you are no longer in the church, and I don't know how much this issue animates you or has anything to do with it, but...
00:23:28.705 --> 00:23:32.356
As Michelle's talking about all of this, what does this do to you?
00:23:32.396 --> 00:23:33.339
Yeah.
00:23:34.845 --> 00:23:37.593
Michelle, I bring a very different perspective, I think, to this conversation.
00:23:37.613 --> 00:23:40.382
I joined the Church of Sixteen in England.
00:23:41.057 --> 00:23:57.961
And, you know, went on a mission, came on, got a seal in the temple, served as a bishop, served on a state presidency, you know, did a lot of research, spent some time actually over the years studying polygamy and not to the amount of 60 or 70 hours, I must add.
00:23:59.502 --> 00:24:00.625
That's like a full-time job.
00:24:00.704 --> 00:24:06.593
But I was always fascinated in polygamy because it was from a...
00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:38.707
non-member Church of England, no history or relationship with the church whatsoever, and observing the missionaries trapped in the neighborhoods where I was growing up and seeing them as strange, cultish figures, and hearing stories about polygamy, that they were trying to persuade English girls to go to Salt Lake through these tunnels, And at the end, these women or girls would have to...
00:24:39.367 --> 00:24:41.009
Where did the Tuttle thing come from?
00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:46.576
Yeah, this is all across the UK and probably all around the world.
00:24:46.616 --> 00:24:55.669
But there are strange mysteries that these Mormon mysteries would take people, not kidnap them necessarily, but would brainwash them.
00:24:56.009 --> 00:24:59.093
I think actually this is what a lot of the Brits think...
00:25:00.258 --> 00:25:17.903
a lot of people still think this and feel this, that there's some brainwashing involved and that back in the 80s when I joined the church, that there was an effort by the church to bring girls, women over to encourage them and persuade them to enter into polygamous marriages.
00:25:18.265 --> 00:25:23.492
So the polygamy was the thing that everyone knew about the Mormon church.
00:25:23.512 --> 00:25:29.480
So soon you mentioned Mormon church in the UK, England, Scotland, whatever, and you saw this on your mission, Jim, a lot, I'm sure.
00:25:29.953 --> 00:25:31.315
Polygamy was the number one thing.
00:25:31.855 --> 00:25:42.027
And the church did studies in the UK and across Europe, and probably across the world, and found that polygamy was one of the biggest barriers, limiters, constraints, why people didn't want to join the church.
00:25:43.228 --> 00:25:52.438
Because polygamy is seen as a very strange, odd practice, notwithstanding it has some of its origins in the Bible, of course.
00:25:52.499 --> 00:25:55.922
And I think you mentioned that on your blog I've been reading earlier.
00:25:56.542 --> 00:25:59.066
So, you know, this is an outside...
00:25:59.682 --> 00:26:59.106
church world perspective polygamy I think it's been a huge topic and issue and still attracts significant interest from all kinds of people in and outside of the church it's very strange I know when Elder Oaks he set me apart on the state presidency and a question I wanted to ask him and I didn't get the chance but I would have asked him this is you know Elder Oaks is sealed to two women so I know we you know the church for political reasons back historically again I'm not an expert here came under pressure to start practicing polygamy it then issued the manifesto the church still practiced it for a period of time and that's my understanding from the essays but at some point it became an official position that it doesn't no longer practice polygamy.
00:26:59.907 --> 00:27:06.013
Notwithstanding, when you go to the temple, even now, you can actually be sealed to two or more women.
00:27:07.015 --> 00:27:08.817
You can't do it in the reverse.
00:27:09.637 --> 00:27:36.503
And so a question I wanted to ask Elder Oaks is, you know, and this is my understanding from speaking with general authorities, that the church still privately, personally, believes in the principle and practice of polygamy, albeit it can't practice it on on the earth today for legal reasons, but in the eternities, that's part of the requirement to achieve eternal life with God.
00:27:36.544 --> 00:27:38.826
That's a principle that we have to follow.
00:27:39.127 --> 00:27:45.496
Personally, I always, I thought it was, I didn't take it seriously.
00:27:45.516 --> 00:27:49.260
The people I grew up with who were in the church, when I joined the church, didn't take it seriously.
00:27:49.582 --> 00:27:58.292
We always said, you know, when you die, and if that polygamy happens, principle and practice is required.
00:27:58.333 --> 00:28:00.194
Our minds will be differently.
00:28:00.316 --> 00:28:01.237
We'll think differently.
00:28:01.297 --> 00:28:03.240
We'll feel different.
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:09.708
This was the default response to the questions of polygamy in seminary or institute or any time it came up.
00:28:10.189 --> 00:28:12.392
Look, God's mind is not our mind.
00:28:13.012 --> 00:28:14.755
His laws are higher than ours.
00:28:15.876 --> 00:28:17.759
When we die, we'll think like him.
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.820
We'll feel like him.
00:28:18.961 --> 00:28:19.882
It won't be an issue.
00:28:19.902 --> 00:28:22.905
I was never interested in polygamy.
00:28:23.968 --> 00:28:54.942
The idea of having um loads of wives just didn't appeal to me and i won't get into into why it just sounds very expensive to me as well um and and i just you know i i'm trying to you know coordinate a relationship with with one albeit successfully and i'm quite happy to be you know married in a you know a regular uh marriage non-polygamy i just if i had the choice of um you know, in the afterlife of not having polygamy, I wouldn't be interested in polygamy.
00:28:55.241 --> 00:29:03.259
But I was always fascinated in the principle of the temple where you can be sealed to more than one woman and more than one wife.
00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:05.282
And they still practice that today.
00:29:05.884 --> 00:29:13.710
I guess to James' question, some questions that come to my mind, Michelle, is What's driving you to have these conversations?
00:29:14.451 --> 00:29:16.875
You spend all this time, clearly very passionate.
00:29:16.894 --> 00:29:19.117
You've delved into the details.
00:29:19.178 --> 00:29:22.702
You talk about deep dives on your website.
00:29:23.824 --> 00:29:24.846
What's behind it?
00:29:25.006 --> 00:29:28.590
Are you trying to, is it a doctrinal thing?
00:29:28.631 --> 00:29:31.454
Is it something that can help you reconcile your faith?
00:29:31.996 --> 00:29:36.060
Do you think the church has completely made a mistake in coming out and accepting?
00:29:36.101 --> 00:29:36.982
I think they've accepted.
00:29:37.442 --> 00:29:43.469
I think the official church position is that the church has accepted that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy.
00:29:44.069 --> 00:29:49.875
I've read somewhere on the essays that he had 33 wives, or 32 wives.
00:29:50.655 --> 00:29:57.843
So my questions are, if you can, is what's driving you in your research?
00:29:58.483 --> 00:29:59.464
What are you trying to achieve?
00:29:59.484 --> 00:30:00.605
What are your objectives?
00:30:01.287 --> 00:30:06.251
How do you reconcile your findings and your research with the church's official position?
00:30:07.011 --> 00:30:17.246
And what are your thoughts about worthy priesthood men being able to be sealed in today, in 2024, be sealed to more than one woman?
00:30:17.286 --> 00:30:20.490
So there's three questions that come to my mind.
00:30:20.530 --> 00:30:21.732
I'd love to get your responses.
00:30:22.574 --> 00:30:25.798
Those are great questions, and that's a lot, so I'm going to do my best.
00:30:25.838 --> 00:30:30.246
Remind me if I don't cover all of them adequately, because I have so much to say, so much in my mind.
00:30:30.826 --> 00:30:32.568
First of all, the churches...
00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:36.374
Polygamy is just an awful mess for the church.
00:30:36.773 --> 00:30:38.737
Terrible, terrible mess, right?
00:30:39.416 --> 00:30:43.501
Just as you said, it's a black eye and has been for a very long time for the church.
00:30:43.622 --> 00:30:46.465
And it's left the church with this mess to try to clean up.
00:30:46.506 --> 00:30:48.548
And there's no good way to clean it up right now.
00:30:48.689 --> 00:30:52.113
And I think in the way that the church is approaching it, right?
00:30:52.553 --> 00:30:55.817
And so we are left with this statement.
00:30:55.856 --> 00:31:01.865
The statement of the church right now is monogamy is the rule, but polygamy is the exception, right?
00:31:02.005 --> 00:31:02.486
And that is...
00:31:03.009 --> 00:31:09.666
I just, I, for so many reasons, think that that's a terrible statement to stance to take.
00:31:09.727 --> 00:31:15.520
First of all, it like the best thing the church has going for it in regard to polygamy is the ignorance of the people.
00:31:16.321 --> 00:31:17.763
We just don't know the history.
00:31:17.804 --> 00:31:18.806
We don't know the scriptures.
00:31:18.885 --> 00:31:21.028
So we are able to believe things like that.
00:31:21.108 --> 00:31:23.993
That statement cannot be supported scripturally at all.
00:31:24.034 --> 00:31:32.246
It's based on a very bad, like resting of one verse of Jacob chapter two, which takes it completely out of context, right?
00:31:32.306 --> 00:31:34.068
And we could get into that.
00:31:34.529 --> 00:31:40.499
And also it is extremely damaging to women when we do start digging in and do start understanding this.
00:31:40.939 --> 00:31:44.248
And so, yes, the idea that men can be sealed to two women.
00:31:44.307 --> 00:31:49.135
Like the church is, I mean, you know, sort of has one foot in polygamy and one foot out of polygamy, right?
00:31:49.297 --> 00:31:54.865
And like Elder Cook has said, the highest councils of the church believe it has served its purpose.
00:31:54.925 --> 00:31:56.188
It's not going to come back again.
00:31:56.228 --> 00:32:12.537
But then we get statements with President Nelson is the first one for a long time who has either paraphrased or referred to or actually quoted verses of section 132 that Previous prophets for many decades have not approached with a 10-foot pole.
00:32:12.616 --> 00:32:18.785
So our current leadership seems to be a little bit more in favor of eternal polygamy than our past leaders have been.
00:32:18.825 --> 00:32:20.627
And I guess we have yet to see where it goes.
00:32:20.688 --> 00:32:25.614
I think it just depends on the perspective of whoever the current leader is, is what we've seen.
00:32:25.693 --> 00:32:29.880
So I do think that the church has a big problem with polygamy.
00:32:29.980 --> 00:32:38.413
And I think that in general, the best way through these things is with Transparency and truthfulness and letting go of false traditions.
00:32:38.875 --> 00:32:50.681
I don't want to be offensive in any way, but I think one of the horrible things that has happened in the church is our temple ban, our history of racism, right?
00:32:51.142 --> 00:32:54.348
And if the church were still saying things like, well...
00:32:55.329 --> 00:32:59.315
Full inclusion of all races is the rule, but racism is the exception.
00:32:59.355 --> 00:33:03.179
And if God ever wants us to exclude a certain race from the temple, he'll tell us to do that.
00:33:03.219 --> 00:33:06.884
And that's in God's, and we just can't worry about what that would mean for people, right?
00:33:07.444 --> 00:33:11.950
And saying, well, the reason that existed is because people were fence sitters in heaven.
00:33:11.970 --> 00:33:12.830
They were less valued.
00:33:13.090 --> 00:33:18.417
Like we have these really, really bad ideas of man.
00:33:18.978 --> 00:33:23.124
And then we blame them on God, and then we try to justify them.
00:33:23.163 --> 00:33:26.708
And I think that that is a very destructive approach to take.
00:33:26.827 --> 00:33:37.462
And as a woman, it is offensive to me that we are willing to say the things that Brigham Young said about certain races were deplorable.
00:33:37.502 --> 00:33:39.945
We mourn over those statements.
00:33:40.547 --> 00:33:42.829
We condemn them and disavow them.
00:33:43.266 --> 00:33:45.449
And we wish they hadn't happened and they were wrong.
00:33:45.808 --> 00:33:50.815
We haven't said it in those clear of terms, but yes, Carl Reeves' book has been published by Deseret Book.
00:33:50.875 --> 00:33:52.297
Let's talk about race and priesthood, right?
00:33:52.356 --> 00:33:54.420
I know that Jim brought that up yesterday.
00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:55.340
We're willing to say that.
00:33:55.701 --> 00:34:03.730
And yet when it comes to women, the things that Brigham Young said about women put the things that he said about other races to shame.
00:34:03.770 --> 00:34:14.902
We have a huge catalog of extremely destructive, deplorable things said about women Or we're not willing to make those same statements.
00:34:15.704 --> 00:34:19.170
And while we have, in many ways, I don't think we're fully there yet.
00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:25.443
I've had conversations with members of the Church of African Descent, and there still is a difficulty.
00:34:25.784 --> 00:34:31.375
Like, I mourn over the fact that here the church was in Utah during the Civil War in America.
00:34:31.414 --> 00:34:33.117
The church could have been this big.
00:34:33.634 --> 00:34:37.820
the city on a hill, this candle on a hill of inclusion.
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:47.554
And I think it's a tragedy that we don't have the descendants of James, children, and all of these amazing saints that we had, right?
00:34:47.614 --> 00:34:48.534
I think it's a tragedy.
00:34:48.554 --> 00:34:52.641
I am glad that we no longer hold to those statements.
00:34:53.302 --> 00:35:04.268
I think it is deplorable that the church has not in any similar way, integrated with women and overcome the bad statements and the bans on women.
00:35:04.347 --> 00:35:10.896
We are so ignorant of our history and we haven't dealt with it in ways that we need to.
00:35:11.456 --> 00:35:14.400
And so we continue on with...
00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:14.460
We
00:35:19.527 --> 00:35:21.369
have some connection issues, Jim, I think.
00:35:21.630 --> 00:35:23.273
Yeah, this happened yesterday.
00:35:23.353 --> 00:35:24.094
Yeah.
00:35:24.545 --> 00:35:25.487
Oh, oh, go ahead.
00:35:25.728 --> 00:35:26.007
Sorry.
00:35:26.268 --> 00:35:27.150
I guess we're losing each other.
00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:28.030
We lost you again.
00:35:29.472 --> 00:35:29.614
Oh.
00:35:30.815 --> 00:35:45.838
No, you were saying it does injustice towards women if we don't understand and acknowledge, you know, the historical statements with women, like Brigham Young, and you got a little bit disconnected.
00:35:45.878 --> 00:35:52.708
But you were talking about, I think you're trying to answer the question, what's driving you, you know, to, I think you're trying to, Bring that justice to women.
00:35:52.768 --> 00:35:57.972
And you're saying that we're ignorant of some of the historical facts.
00:35:58.132 --> 00:35:59.077
We just don't know enough.
00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:00.885
And we need to talk about this.
00:36:02.402 --> 00:36:03.143
Yes, yes.
00:36:03.282 --> 00:36:10.489
I do think that it keeps women in a position of uncertainty in their relationship with God, right?
00:36:10.608 --> 00:36:11.510
How does God view me?
00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:23.360
If I read Jacob chapters 2 and 3, then I as a woman see that God cares about my feelings, my experience, what my heart yearns for.
00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:39.297
If I read section 132, I see that God views me as property, as virgins to be given willy-nilly to men with no regard to my views and with threats that I'll be destroyed if I don't just comply with whatever my husband wants to do.
00:36:39.358 --> 00:37:05.186
When I look at how the church treats Emma Smith, still based on these terrible statements made by early church leaders, for me, I explained this to Jim a automatically because of experiences that I'd had and when I was losing children in those incredibly tragic years.
00:37:05.206 --> 00:37:16.259
This might sound strange to people, but truly like somehow, this was before I had started my historical research, but Emma Smith got me through that.
00:37:16.539 --> 00:37:22.786
Like repeatedly, I would just have this overwhelming feeling of Emma made it, I can too.
00:37:23.650 --> 00:37:34.893
You know, I just developed a real closeness and appreciation and sort of awe for the sacrifices and the toughness and the faith of Emma Smith.
00:37:35.489 --> 00:37:37.231
And she really became important to me.
00:37:37.291 --> 00:37:49.985
So as I started to dive into the research, it was actually studying Emma Smith, studying her life, studying all of the things that were said about her during her life compared to the polygamous narrative of her.
00:37:50.025 --> 00:37:54.871
That was the thing that actually convinced me this is not true.
00:37:54.891 --> 00:37:57.893
These are not true statements.
00:37:58.074 --> 00:37:59.096
These are lies.
00:37:59.735 --> 00:38:04.735
And if they're lies about Emma, There are also lies about Joseph, right?
00:38:04.856 --> 00:38:07.380
And I started to study it from that perspective.
00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:13.010
So I automatically center Emma Smith in my perspective on this topic when I look at polygamy.
00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:21.686
And we have stories that say God sent an angel with a drawn sword that threatened to kill Joseph Smith if he didn't betray his wife.
00:38:22.807 --> 00:38:23.268
I'm sorry.
00:38:23.289 --> 00:38:25.974
I mean, it makes me want to swear like a bull crap.
00:38:26.242 --> 00:38:53.184
no that is not who god is right and so jim and i discussed the ces letter yesterday right so that's why the ces letter is effective because okay i can believe that a man claiming to be a prophet might tell his wife that but i will not believe that god did that and in the lds church our stance is still that god did that god sends angels with swords threatening prophets that they will be beheaded if they don't betray their wives What is that?
00:38:53.543 --> 00:38:55.306
How are we supposed to believe that, right?
00:38:55.407 --> 00:39:10.409
And so for me, as a person of faith, when I look at the Book of Mormon and I read that in 3 Nephi chapter 26, it tells us that we will receive this portion first and it is to our condemnation if we don't receive more.
00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:13.735
If we believe what we've been given, then we will receive more.
00:39:13.755 --> 00:39:15.518
Or every doctrine comes...
00:39:16.226 --> 00:39:24.333
When I read Doctrine and Covenants 84, that tells us that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the things that we have received, namely the Book of Mormon.
00:39:24.893 --> 00:39:38.664
And when I recognize that the Book of Mormon, bar none, is the most anti-polygamy book of scripture that we have in the entire canon, it has a lot to say about polygamy, and it leaves no question.
00:39:38.706 --> 00:39:42.528
We go from opening chapters, which have Lehi.
00:39:42.588 --> 00:39:51.864
If we get into the scriptures, I can show you that polygamy is that one of the main reasons he left Jerusalem and one of the main reasons that Jerusalem was threatened with destruction.
00:39:51.905 --> 00:39:52.505
That is in there.
00:39:52.525 --> 00:39:54.650
He was told to raise up seed in the covenant.
00:39:55.193 --> 00:40:02.369
The Lord was supposed to raise up seed and God said, I will, I cannot raise up a seed with people who don't honor my covenant of marriage.
00:40:02.750 --> 00:40:12.030
Then we go to, um, In Noah, it says he did not do that which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines, right?
00:40:12.431 --> 00:40:17.059
We go to Replichish, who did not do that which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines.
00:40:17.541 --> 00:40:24.012
But out of the blue, we have a scripture that starts out talking about the doctrine of having many wives and concubines.
00:40:24.393 --> 00:40:29.101
That is what verse 1 of section 132 says, and that's what it calls it.
00:40:29.505 --> 00:40:38.416
right how do we reconcile these and so then when people get in and learn things i'm just going to go on a little bit of a side track but We don't know any of our history.
00:40:38.476 --> 00:40:48.985
We don't know that in the original Doctrine and Covenants that was published in 1835 and again in 1844, we had a statement on marriage that was put in by the leaders of the church.
00:40:49.045 --> 00:40:57.592
Joseph Smith was the head of the committee that was creating, you know, what's the word, editing, I guess, putting together the Doctrine and Covenants.
00:40:58.092 --> 00:41:00.175
That section was universally voted on.
00:41:00.394 --> 00:41:01.496
It had common consent.
00:41:01.695 --> 00:41:03.717
Every organization of the church voted on it.
00:41:03.818 --> 00:41:09.663
It was called the Statement on Marriage, and it absolutely Absolutely condemns, denies, and decries polygamy.
00:41:10.063 --> 00:41:19.030
It says that in this church, we say that one man shall have one wife and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death when either is at liberty to marry again.
00:41:19.471 --> 00:41:27.277
That was section 101 in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, included as 109 in the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants.
00:41:27.338 --> 00:41:28.798
Joseph Smith was killed in 1844.
00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.943
So throughout his lifetime, that is what he included in the scriptures.
00:41:36.449 --> 00:41:48.355
five years after the saints had come to Utah, eight years after Joseph Smith's death, that for the very first time, Brigham Young pulled Section 132 out of his desk and said, I've had this here.
00:41:48.375 --> 00:41:49.617
Nobody's known about it.
00:41:49.637 --> 00:41:51.521
Nobody knew it existed, but I've had it.
00:41:51.969 --> 00:42:01.445
We also have so many sources showing us how Brigham Young and his team of historians were altering documents, getting rid of documents, changing the history.
00:42:01.485 --> 00:42:05.371
That is very easily provable.
00:42:05.431 --> 00:42:07.054
I could show you that that was happening.
00:42:07.594 --> 00:42:17.268
And then it wasn't until 1876, the year before Brigham Young died, that Section 132 was first added to the Doctrine and Covenants and Section 101 was removed.
00:42:18.114 --> 00:42:18.393
Right.
00:42:18.534 --> 00:42:20.197
And that most people don't know that.
00:42:20.777 --> 00:42:23.581
And so so we think of this as like scripture.
00:42:23.641 --> 00:42:28.146
You can't talk about scripture, say that this canonized scripture shouldn't be this way.
00:42:28.206 --> 00:42:28.387
Right.
00:42:28.527 --> 00:42:38.822
Even if even if people want to believe that section 132 did come from Joseph Smith, which I I think is absolutely ridiculous as I have delved into that.
00:42:39.713 --> 00:42:41.362
He intentionally never published it.
00:42:41.442 --> 00:42:45.661
He didn't include it in the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants, right?
00:42:45.702 --> 00:42:48.755
We can't claim that he wanted it published and canonized.
00:42:49.217 --> 00:43:12.663
So even on that alone, we could say, should we really have canonized scriptures that claim that the doctrine of having many wives and concubines is of God, that claims that women are property to be given willy-nilly as rewards for men, and that threatens women with destruction if they won't get on board with their men's infidelity, right?
00:43:12.722 --> 00:43:14.744
Do we really want that canonized in our scripture?
00:43:14.784 --> 00:43:19.668
So I guess what drives me is this genuine belief in the Book of Mormon.
00:43:19.829 --> 00:43:21.771
I believe what it says.
00:43:21.791 --> 00:43:23.192
I think it's important for us.
00:43:23.291 --> 00:43:31.518
I think it is profound that the Book of Mormon has so much to say about polygamy when we claim that it's written for our day, and it calls it an abomination.
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:39.226
And so I feel like we're walking around carrying our little pet abomination in our own back pocket while decrying what we see as abomination in the rest of the world.
00:43:39.786 --> 00:43:43.570
And I see so many areas where we desperately need further light and knowledge.
00:43:43.650 --> 00:43:46.554
We are in so much need of more truth to be revealed.
00:43:47.295 --> 00:43:52.061
And I don't know how we can get it when we won't accept the truth that we've been given.
00:43:52.081 --> 00:43:57.528
Your passion comes across very strongly.
00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:00.373
You are a very fierce advocate for your position.
00:44:00.492 --> 00:44:04.938
And I don't think it's possible not to respect that.
00:44:04.978 --> 00:44:07.222
And I'm grateful for that.
00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:09.891
I went and saw a movie last night.
00:44:10.393 --> 00:44:13.036
Ian and I have talked about doing a podcast on this movie.
00:44:13.096 --> 00:44:14.978
It's the new one out with Hugh Grant.
00:44:15.077 --> 00:44:18.541
It's the movie Heretic.
00:44:19.824 --> 00:44:20.505
I haven't seen it.
00:44:21.505 --> 00:44:26.512
Well, I believe, and Ian, you're seeing it today, aren't you?
00:44:26.632 --> 00:44:27.572
I'm seeing it tonight, yes.
00:44:27.693 --> 00:44:28.753
You haven't seen it yet?
00:44:29.215 --> 00:44:29.775
I'll see it tonight.
00:44:30.476 --> 00:44:33.860
I think in some ways it is the...
00:44:35.617 --> 00:45:16.262
finest depiction of latter-day saints on film that i have ever seen because these are it's not that these people are perfect but they they are very much recognizable as latter-day saints the two sister missionaries and i don't like horror movies that much and it got really kind of gory near the end and so there's kind of issues there but they had this big lengthy discussion about polygamy and uh the sister missionaries were essentially making the arguments that you're decrying, this idea that it was necessary, that monogamy is the rule, but polygamy is the exception.
00:45:16.282 --> 00:45:35.931
I don't think they said that specifically, but they did say that polygamy was necessary in order to raise up seed and to have lots of children, and I'm going to agree with you, I think, here, that the data shows that that is not the case, that polygamy did not actually increase the population.
00:45:36.012 --> 00:45:48.188
So people sort of look at that Jacob chapter two escape clause as a reason to say, well, here's when polygamy is okay, because when we need to raise up seed, uh, the, the historical data does not bear that out.
00:45:48.869 --> 00:46:07.322
But, um, Hugh Grant, uh, the, the, the bad guy, um, says, look, initially he's very pleasant with the sister missionaries and is talking to them about how wonderful it is that they believe and isn't it nice and I'm looking for faith.
00:46:07.403 --> 00:46:11.108
And then he says, can I ask you an awkward question?
00:46:12.208 --> 00:46:15.132
And the question is, what do you think about polygamy?
00:46:15.833 --> 00:46:22.461
And that's the beginning of sort of the deep dive into the darker parts of where the movie goes, right?
00:46:22.690 --> 00:46:30.021
But the thing that he raises is he says, Joseph Smith was caught with Fanny Alger.
00:46:30.041 --> 00:46:33.005
He says Fanny Alger's name.
00:46:33.425 --> 00:46:34.927
I've always thought it was Alger.
00:46:34.967 --> 00:46:35.007
It
00:46:35.027 --> 00:46:36.048
is.
00:46:36.088 --> 00:46:40.536
Lindsay Hudson Park started saying Alger, so now we say Alger.
00:46:40.576 --> 00:46:43.480
John Bradley talked to some descendants that say it's Alger.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:45.663
I've talked to other descendants who say it's Alger.
00:46:45.702 --> 00:46:48.746
The correct phonetic pronunciation is Alger.
00:46:49.228 --> 00:46:50.429
So I stick with Alger.
00:46:51.329 --> 00:46:55.253
Well, so I have not reviewed all of your material.
00:46:55.454 --> 00:47:03.021
And yesterday you asked me, what is the strongest evidence you have that Joseph Smith is a polygamist?
00:47:03.101 --> 00:47:08.346
And I didn't answer because I'm not really invested in that question in the same way you are.
00:47:08.425 --> 00:47:10.288
And so I wasn't trying to prove my point.
00:47:11.248 --> 00:47:35.181
But after watching that, I went, I would very much like to hear Michelle's take on Fannie Alger Alger, because whether or not Joseph was a polygamist, I think the historical record is very clear that whatever relationship he had with Fanny was enough to drive Oliver Cowdery out of the church.
00:47:35.262 --> 00:47:43.193
We have Oliver Cowdery's statement about the dirty, nasty, filthy scrape or affair, depending on which version of the document you're looking at.
00:47:45.137 --> 00:48:05.420
But my understanding of that event is that Oliver was troubled by it, considered it adultery, was called before a church court to discuss it, and Joseph Smith didn't deny the relationship, but he denied adultery.
00:48:07.603 --> 00:48:11.827
I'm getting this from Richard Bushman, warmed over, so I'm probably getting the details wrong.
00:48:12.688 --> 00:48:27.664
But certainly there's some kind of relationship between Joseph and Fanny that That if it's not a polygamous relationship, it's an adulterous relationship or is it something else?
00:48:28.065 --> 00:48:35.512
So that to me is, I've got to find a way to reconcile that.
00:48:35.632 --> 00:48:37.675
And I'd be very interested to hear your perspective.
00:48:38.576 --> 00:48:38.856
Sure.
00:48:38.876 --> 00:48:44.181
And this is something I would love to get into the documents on because when I just talk about it, it might sound ridiculous.
00:48:44.222 --> 00:48:45.844
What's better is when we get into the documents.
00:48:45.903 --> 00:48:47.786
Can I first take a tiny little sidetrack?
00:48:48.097 --> 00:48:51.161
and respond to the raise up seed comment and then come back to Fanny Alger.
00:48:51.181 --> 00:48:54.865
So this is one thing that I think is really important.
00:48:54.905 --> 00:48:56.246
It's not merely that.
00:48:56.306 --> 00:49:00.692
So all of the excuses that we use to justify polygamy have fallen by the wayside, right?
00:49:00.791 --> 00:49:02.333
It is needed to take care of widows.
00:49:02.733 --> 00:49:06.759
Well, no, because there were more men than women in Utah.
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:08.501
They weren't marrying the widows.
00:49:08.541 --> 00:49:12.686
They were marrying the little girls, the teenage girls, particularly those whose fathers had died.
00:49:13.186 --> 00:49:16.451
Also, you don't need to marry a widow to take care of her.
00:49:16.510 --> 00:49:21.539
If you tell a widow she has to marry you in order to have food and shelter, that's prostitution, right?
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:28.570
We also have a perfect example of King Limhi taking care of widows by just asking the men to provide for more in the Book of Mormon, not by marrying them.
00:49:28.630 --> 00:49:29.972
So that's one excuse.
00:49:30.032 --> 00:49:31.454
Another is we needed more children born.
00:49:31.494 --> 00:49:33.518
It's been shown that actually fewer children are born.
00:49:34.018 --> 00:49:45.849
But also, just I wanted to point out in that escape clause, if you go to 1 Nephi 7, when Lehi tells his sons to go back to get Ishmael and the girls and his daughters, right?
00:49:45.889 --> 00:49:55.762
And it says that he should not take his family into the wilderness alone, but that his sons should take daughters to wife that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.
00:49:56.242 --> 00:50:00.206
Lehi and his descendants were directly commanded to raise up seed.
00:50:00.246 --> 00:50:05.974
So we can't keep saying that at some other time when God will command people to raise up seed, he'll command polygamy.
00:50:06.014 --> 00:50:10.887
We have every time God has commanded polygamy, people to multiply and replenish.
00:50:10.989 --> 00:50:15.175
And every new beginning, it was done in God's perfect establishment of monogamy.
00:50:15.394 --> 00:50:16.295
Adam and Eve, right?
00:50:16.335 --> 00:50:18.519
Noah and his wife and all of his sons.
00:50:18.579 --> 00:50:20.202
And there were eight souls on the ark.
00:50:20.442 --> 00:50:22.125
Each of Noah's three sons had one wife.
00:50:22.525 --> 00:50:24.487
Each of the animals were one and one.
00:50:24.547 --> 00:50:28.894
It wasn't one male and seven females to repopulate the earth, right?
00:50:28.934 --> 00:50:32.960
Then we have Sariah and Lehi, their sons with one wife each.
00:50:33.001 --> 00:50:34.943
You can read through and see that the numbers are perfect.
00:50:34.983 --> 00:50:40.775
So this is like an amazing job of resting the scriptures that the early polygamists did.
00:50:40.797 --> 00:50:52.541
We also have Hiram Smith on record Levi Richards recorded a sermon that Hironsmith gave when he said that Jacob, the sermon of Jacob is to be seen as a perpetual principle.
00:50:52.581 --> 00:51:04.873
And he says, if an angel were to appear to you and teach you polygamy, you would be sure to see his cloven foot and the cloud of blackness because people were going around saying that, you know, there were people, there were underground polygamists in Nauvoo.
00:51:04.913 --> 00:51:13.139
The only difference between people who claim that Joseph was a polygamist, they claimed that there were underground polygamists in Nauvoo and it was being kept a secret and Joseph was in on it.
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:20.550
And the big difference is I think actually polygamy was being kept a secret from Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, not that Joseph was part of it.
00:51:21.150 --> 00:51:27.840
And you can see that by the fact that there were hardly any polygamous marriages during Joseph's lifetime other than those that we claim.
00:51:27.981 --> 00:51:32.586
And any claims for marriages don't start until like 1869, way after the fact.
00:51:32.967 --> 00:51:34.228
But as soon as Joseph dies...
00:51:34.818 --> 00:51:40.565
polygamy goes crazy in Nauvoo and there start to be so many polygamous wives taken and so many babies born.
00:51:40.626 --> 00:51:45.132
So that's, I know that's a little bit of a sidetrack, but these are some of the things that I think are important to get into.
00:51:45.213 --> 00:51:51.001
So Fanny Alger was actually a struggle for me in this, in every way.
00:51:51.041 --> 00:51:52.603
How do we make sense of this, right?
00:51:52.623 --> 00:51:53.846
Is it an affair?
00:51:53.885 --> 00:51:56.510
Is it a polygamous child?
00:51:56.673 --> 00:51:56.994
wife.
00:51:57.215 --> 00:52:01.500
How do we make sense of it being a polygamous wife when polygamy hadn't been revealed yet?
00:52:01.579 --> 00:52:03.463
Then we have to go to these other terrible sources.
00:52:03.503 --> 00:52:14.617
So it's a problem for everybody, except the anti-Mormons or the non-Mormons, the people who have left the church, who are just like, Joseph Smith was a con man and a womanizer, and he was always sleeping with the babysitter.
00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:17.880
Oh, shoot.
00:52:18.201 --> 00:52:18.882
We've lost you again.
00:52:21.684 --> 00:52:24.809
Yeah, yesterday, it went out, her phone...
00:52:25.110 --> 00:52:25.190
When
00:52:25.289 --> 00:52:25.309
I...
00:52:25.505 --> 00:52:27.014
Oh, sorry.
00:52:27.054 --> 00:52:29.932
You were about to say sleeping with the babysitter and then you froze.
00:52:31.137 --> 00:52:31.858
Oh, darn it.
00:52:31.898 --> 00:52:32.139
Yeah.
00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:40.313
Well, so anyway, the post-Mormon position is the one that's the most easily explained in the Fanny Alger affair.
00:52:40.353 --> 00:52:42.396
So how do we make sense of what she was, right?
00:52:42.416 --> 00:52:43.079
Was she a wife?
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:43.820
Was she an affair?
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:45.101
Was she whatever?
00:52:45.181 --> 00:52:52.514
And so when I really dug into the documents on that, I can share a couple of different experiences.
00:52:52.534 --> 00:53:07.820
One challenge I have, I'm hesitant to share insights I have, One challenge I have is it's so easy for people to view me as someone who just is acting out of motivated reasoning because I just desperately need Joseph Smith to be a good guy and I have him on a pedestal.
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:09.684
So I need to make that make sense.
00:53:10.166 --> 00:53:11.148
And I just...
00:53:11.905 --> 00:53:13.909
That annoys me so much.
00:53:14.128 --> 00:53:15.411
I'm so frustrated by that.
00:53:15.570 --> 00:53:24.585
I feel the same way about that as I do about people saying about people who leave the church that they just did it because they wanted to sin and they just never had a testimony to begin with.
00:53:24.625 --> 00:53:30.072
We make up stories about people so that we don't have to actually see them as people and engage with them, right?
00:53:30.092 --> 00:53:40.822
So I guess I'm requesting people to please do me the honor of not telling me that that's who I am, when I know that that's not who I am, right?
00:53:41.282 --> 00:53:43.427
But I will say that before I...
00:53:44.248 --> 00:53:51.702
History is overwhelming, and the thought of digging into the history just overwhelmed me when I was, you know, when I considered...
00:53:52.226 --> 00:53:57.030
studying out Joseph Smith and this question before I had decided one way or the other.
00:53:57.170 --> 00:54:02.858
And I'll share this experience and then I'll share a little bit of the historical record because this was the order it came in for me.
00:54:02.878 --> 00:54:10.346
I was reading a book that someone sent me that was, it's Whitney Horning's book called Joseph Smith Revealed.
00:54:10.385 --> 00:54:12.969
And she wrote a book saying Joseph wasn't a polygamist, right?
00:54:13.469 --> 00:54:16.393
And I was very skeptical of that idea.
00:54:16.432 --> 00:54:17.773
So I started reading it.
00:54:17.813 --> 00:54:19.655
There were things that I really appreciated.
00:54:19.675 --> 00:54:28.606
There were other things that I didn't agree with as I read it, but I got to her Fanny Alger section and it just bothered me again.
00:54:28.666 --> 00:54:30.708
That story has always bothered me, right?
00:54:30.969 --> 00:54:32.451
Like, how do I make sense of this?
00:54:32.831 --> 00:54:36.255
And so I was actually on an airplane.
00:54:36.335 --> 00:54:39.719
I was flying and I just set the book down because none of it was making sense to me.
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:45.005
And I just prayed and I said, Lord, will you help me understand what happened with Fanny Alger?
00:54:45.474 --> 00:54:47.056
You know, like, can you show me?
00:54:47.115 --> 00:54:48.717
And this is kind of how I work.
00:54:48.737 --> 00:54:52.461
So I'm going to share this at the risk of being totally dismissed by people.
00:54:52.481 --> 00:54:55.405
But I want to continue on, like, listen to a little bit more of it.
00:54:55.445 --> 00:55:05.438
Anyway, when I prayed that, immediately a scene from my freshman year of college that I didn't even know I remembered came right to mind.
00:55:05.478 --> 00:55:08.181
And Jim and I talked about it yesterday.
00:55:08.201 --> 00:55:09.463
We were both in theater.
00:55:09.483 --> 00:55:11.766
I was a music dance theater major at BYU.
00:55:12.226 --> 00:55:14.289
And I was in a musical my freshman year.
00:55:14.369 --> 00:55:15.452
And there were four girls.
00:55:15.492 --> 00:55:16.653
We were working on a dance number.
00:55:16.673 --> 00:55:18.117
And we had a pianist who was a guy.
00:55:18.137 --> 00:55:22.184
And we were going over the vocals after our rehearsals.
00:55:22.224 --> 00:55:23.567
We were all gathered around the piano.
00:55:23.666 --> 00:55:27.393
And being freshmen in college, we were all kind of flirty, I guess.
00:55:27.494 --> 00:55:30.318
One of the girls was giving the pianist a back rub.
00:55:30.358 --> 00:55:32.282
The rest of us were there laughing and giggling.
00:55:32.322 --> 00:55:49.992
And all of a sudden, it was not anything other than just you know, like it was innocent flirtation, but all of a sudden that pianist sat up straight, lifted the girl's hands off of his back, walked up and turned white, walked, stood up and walked toward the door and his wife had come in.
00:55:51.114 --> 00:55:55.902
And so his wife had walked in and he kind of realized I'm having this flirting.
00:55:55.922 --> 00:55:58.047
You know, these girls are all flirting with me.
00:55:58.086 --> 00:56:03.659
And so, and I remember my heart sinking and just being like, oh no, I hope that's okay.
00:56:03.778 --> 00:56:09.905
You know, it was really a good lesson to me of like, oh, I need to be more aware of, you know, the situation.
00:56:09.925 --> 00:56:11.927
Anyway, that came right to my mind.
00:56:11.967 --> 00:56:15.110
And I had not even remembered that event.
00:56:15.710 --> 00:56:19.673
And so it gave me an opening of a way to possibly think about Fanny.
00:56:19.713 --> 00:56:23.797
Like I just had this, I'm not saying this is what happened with Fanny.
00:56:23.918 --> 00:56:28.782
I'm saying this is what I feel the Lord brought to my mind to give me an opening of a way to think about Fanny.
00:56:28.822 --> 00:56:34.934
And what kind of I envisioned is the possibility that, like we do know some things about Fanny.
00:56:34.974 --> 00:56:35.996
She was very attractive.
00:56:36.036 --> 00:56:36.878
She was very outgoing.
00:56:36.938 --> 00:56:38.340
She was very flirtatious.
00:56:38.541 --> 00:56:38.780
Right.
00:56:39.302 --> 00:56:51.623
And so if she was flirting with Joseph, Emma saw that and was upset by it, just like the husband, you know, even though, and that, and that, um, you know, and then, and, and so, so just that possibility.
00:56:51.724 --> 00:57:03.481
And then what was fascinating is as I dug into the historical record, that is the best explanation I can find based on the entire historical record.
00:57:03.943 --> 00:57:05.826
And I can give you a couple of examples about it.
00:57:05.885 --> 00:57:07.967
I won't go into the whole, into the entire theme.
00:57:08.349 --> 00:57:14.818
But yes, it is true that the Fannie Alger situation came up in front of the Kirtland High Council, right?
00:57:14.838 --> 00:57:17.001
This was in Kirtland before they had gone to Nauvoo.
00:57:17.041 --> 00:57:20.184
And it was brought up by Oliver Cowdery.
00:57:20.224 --> 00:57:26.253
But Oliver Cowdery wrote an extensive letter to the Kirtland High Council about all of his allegations about Joseph Smith.
00:57:26.690 --> 00:57:29.132
He doesn't say anything about Fannie Alger.
00:57:29.172 --> 00:57:33.255
That is not one of his main issues.
00:57:33.657 --> 00:57:55.038
It was brought up in the high council discussion, but Joseph Smith explained it adequately to ease all of those high councilman's concerns to the point that they just described it as the girl business, which to me could mean this little girl business thing that happened that was not a big concern.
00:57:55.938 --> 00:58:01.146
It's important to recognize some of the people who were in that high council meeting, including Thomas B.
00:58:01.186 --> 00:58:12.402
Marsh, for example, and several others who left the church not soon after that, who were motivated and were doing everything they could to badmouth Joseph Smith, right?
00:58:12.503 --> 00:58:12.923
Thomas B.
00:58:12.963 --> 00:58:16.989
Marsh admitted that he spread several lies about Joseph Smith.
00:58:17.469 --> 00:58:23.719
Oh my goodness, if there had been adultery in there, isn't that one of the things they would have accused Joseph Smith of?
00:58:23.900 --> 00:58:24.922
And none of them did.
00:58:25.697 --> 00:58:29.902
And so we can go into the entire history of all of the documentation of that.
00:58:29.983 --> 00:58:36.190
It's not good documentation, but it shows very clearly that there is almost nothing here.
00:58:36.271 --> 00:58:48.324
The actual clear stories of Fanny Smith come from Mosiah Hancock, Levi Hancock, and then Mosiah Hancock, like decades later, building on previous claims.
00:58:48.385 --> 00:58:51.789
You just see that the documentation is extremely poor.
00:58:52.610 --> 00:59:02.365
And while I get annoyed when people accuse me of motivated reasoning, what I see actually is a lot of motivated reasoning on all of the other sides, the people that won't engage with me.
00:59:02.405 --> 00:59:09.277
The LDS church under Brigham Young was extremely motivated to claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
00:59:09.356 --> 00:59:12.382
They're absolutely...
00:59:12.706 --> 00:59:19.856
Their credibility, their validity as the church, the successors of Joseph Smith depended on it, right?
00:59:20.376 --> 00:59:27.405
And then we go to today where the LDS church is still motivated to say, the prophets could never lead us astray.
00:59:27.445 --> 00:59:28.867
Our churches just didn't do anything wrong.
00:59:28.907 --> 00:59:31.751
They still need to claim that Brigham Young was right.
00:59:31.851 --> 00:59:33.193
And so Joseph was a polygamist.
00:59:33.594 --> 00:59:42.485
And then for many, many people who have left the church, that is such a traumatic, huge process for many people to go through a faith crisis, to leave the church.
00:59:43.010 --> 00:59:51.617
the last thing they want to do is say, oh, would Joseph Smith maybe not have been actually the person I thought that he was, right?
00:59:51.657 --> 00:59:53.623
And I'm not asking anyone to come back to the church.
00:59:53.684 --> 00:59:58.943
I'm not doing any kind of evangelizing of that sort.
00:59:59.384 --> 01:00:02.887
I don't have an end goal of where I want people to be or what I want people to believe.
01:00:03.007 --> 01:00:10.876
I just want us to look honestly at the documentation and have the rigorous conversations that need to be had without the motivated reasoning I see everywhere.
01:00:10.896 --> 01:00:19.505
Because for so many of the people that are also now fighting against the church, the main thing that they absolutely need is to claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:00:19.545 --> 01:00:22.750
It's one of the biggest things that we have to say Joseph Smith was a bad guy.
01:00:23.233 --> 01:00:34.365
And I think it's a shame that the big podcasters in the post LDS space won't have me on because, you know, as, as someone has said, we can't let this get any oxygen, right?
01:00:34.545 --> 01:00:39.931
They're, they're not willing to engage in these honest discussions because of their motivated reasoning.
01:00:40.030 --> 01:00:42.653
So I don't know if that helps with your Fannie Alger discussion.
01:00:42.753 --> 01:00:56.788
I would love to get into the documentation because I think it's interesting to see how, how weak those, um, the documentation actually is and how it's not a good fit at all to claim she's a plural wife.
01:00:56.867 --> 01:01:00.572
The documents do not show that, and the documents do not show that it was an affair.
01:01:00.612 --> 01:01:18.030
The best explanation actually turns out to be the one that my mind opened up to, that there was some flirtation, rather innocent flirtation, but that was inappropriate and was explained to completely satisfy the counselors that maybe Oliver Cowdery misunderstood.
01:01:19.842 --> 01:01:26.552
There's a huge disconnect in this conversation and what I understand what the church's position.
01:01:27.112 --> 01:01:29.036
And I think that's where your work is focused.
01:01:29.615 --> 01:01:33.661
You know, there's historical and seemingly factual disconnect.
01:01:34.222 --> 01:01:39.130
You've got this, you've made this claim that Joe Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:01:39.231 --> 01:01:42.735
The church has, I think for years, agreed with you.
01:01:42.775 --> 01:01:48.344
I think it's taught or suggested that Joe Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:01:48.384 --> 01:01:49.565
That's what I understand.
01:01:49.922 --> 01:01:57.971
understood investigating the church and during my early years in the church didn't know or even heard actually that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:01:57.990 --> 01:02:00.514
I understand that happened from Brigham Young going forward.
01:02:01.635 --> 01:02:11.186
Churches now, for a number of reasons now, come to the position that officially the church states that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:02:11.786 --> 01:02:14.929
In fact, there is some of the work that the churches...
01:02:15.389 --> 01:02:16.652
You glitched out there, Ian.
01:02:16.771 --> 01:02:18.494
The church has stated...
01:02:19.809 --> 01:02:38.637
Yeah, so historically, the church has had a position that Joseph Smith, at least I was taught that Joseph Smith, when I was younger in the church and investigating the church and in my early years in the church, that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.
01:02:40.201 --> 01:02:48.914
And now, for different reasons, other facts came to the service and the church positioned now that Joseph Smith did in fact practice polygamy.
01:02:49.346 --> 01:02:54.074
How familiar are you with the work of Brian C.
01:02:54.135 --> 01:02:54.496
Hales?
01:02:54.576 --> 01:03:00.807
I've got an article of his which is titled, Encouraging Joe Smith to Practice Plural Marriage, the Accounts.
01:03:01.509 --> 01:03:05.317
Apparently there are several accounts, Jim, of the angel and the drawn sword.
01:03:05.356 --> 01:03:23.431
And Brian Hales says here that in this historical document, which I think the church published, accepts, or in part, he says that the historical record indicates that Joseph Smith contracted his first plural marriage in 1835 or in 1836 in Kirtland, Ohio with Fanny Alger.
01:03:23.472 --> 01:03:30.719
He says, upon learning of this relationship, his legal wife, Emma, and a close friend of Oliver Cowdery rejected it, considering it adulterous.
01:03:30.759 --> 01:03:31.860
We've just got into some of that.
01:03:32.420 --> 01:03:40.389
So the church position or teachings were that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:03:41.088 --> 01:03:45.025
It now states clearly that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:03:45.505 --> 01:03:46.666
You're saying he wasn't.
01:03:46.706 --> 01:03:49.050
You're saying that the history suggests that otherwise.
01:03:49.090 --> 01:04:11.273
The two questions that come to mind is what, just as a comment here, it appears that Joseph Smith had an affair with Fanny Alger and to cover it up, got together with some of the brethren and said, look, he's had a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger.
01:04:11.713 --> 01:04:11.994
She's...
01:04:12.414 --> 01:04:13.396
How old is she at this point?
01:04:13.456 --> 01:04:13.896
Is she 14?
01:04:14.757 --> 01:04:15.239
She's 16.
01:04:15.298 --> 01:04:15.518
No.
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:16.760
Well,
01:04:16.780 --> 01:04:17.021
we don't...
01:04:17.782 --> 01:04:20.507
You can't say because we don't know what year it happened, right?
01:04:20.626 --> 01:04:22.349
Dating it is very challenging.
01:04:22.650 --> 01:04:23.010
Okay.
01:04:23.110 --> 01:04:23.911
I've heard 14.
01:04:23.931 --> 01:04:24.773
I've heard 16.
01:04:24.853 --> 01:04:25.393
And Jo Smith...
01:04:25.414 --> 01:04:25.514
She
01:04:25.574 --> 01:04:25.994
wasn't 14.
01:04:26.275 --> 01:04:28.938
She was at least 16 based on the dating I've seen.
01:04:28.958 --> 01:04:29.039
Okay.
01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:30.400
And Jo Smith...
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:30.780
Maybe 18.
01:04:31.202 --> 01:04:32.523
How old is it at this stage, Jo Smith?
01:04:32.543 --> 01:04:32.965
How old is he?
01:04:33.284 --> 01:04:34.166
Oh, way too old.
01:04:34.626 --> 01:04:35.768
In his 30s at that point.
01:04:36.128 --> 01:04:37.050
And they're old.
01:04:37.070 --> 01:04:39.253
So for lots of reasons, you know, having an affair...
01:04:39.617 --> 01:04:42.364
adulterous relationship, which is what I've just quoted there from Brian C.
01:04:42.403 --> 01:05:25.824
Hales, the position of the prophet, perhaps, and I'm just kind of making this up, in order for this to look as, be a bit more acceptable than it really was, there was this notion that, you know, he had a spiritual connection relationship with her and it was sacred and it was some form or version of polygamy in order for it to be acceptable perhaps that's what really happened but my question is with this big disconnect where the church has been quiet at best now still quiet on the subject of polygamy and quiet and what's this thing to go away i agree from what you said earlier polygamy has been a major problem for the church a major probably the biggest problem That, I think, can race in the priesthood, right?
01:05:25.885 --> 01:05:31.103
They're the two, in my experience, the two big challenges that the church still hasn't...
01:05:32.193 --> 01:06:00.972
understood hasn't characterized properly hasn't addressed and would love for these issues to go away so but it now accepts and teaches and positions that Joseph was a polygamist he doesn't want to talk about it anymore he's saying look you know in the essays in the articles he was a polygamist it's done now it was what it was it was back then etc etc it was a different time and and we don't practice polygamy anymore we don't teach it but then as I mentioned earlier uh Elder Oaks has two wives.
01:06:01.271 --> 01:06:03.074
He's sealed two wives.
01:06:03.914 --> 01:06:07.117
And that's something you didn't address when I asked earlier, if you don't mind.
01:06:07.177 --> 01:06:13.585
So my questions are, what was driving the church to bring him to introduce polygamy?
01:06:14.565 --> 01:06:20.811
Did I characterize that relationship, that incident that happened with Fanny Alger correctly or not?
01:06:21.373 --> 01:06:38.664
And what's your position on the church's position that it still teaches in some ways or in some way and practices the principle and practice of polygamy in the temple, where a man can go to the temple and be sealed to two wives.
01:06:39.405 --> 01:06:49.161
I want to interject very quickly before I let you go wild here, Michelle, because I know you are familiar with the work of Brian Hales.
01:06:49.762 --> 01:06:49.822
Yes.
01:06:50.177 --> 01:06:50.978
for one game.
01:06:51.219 --> 01:06:51.860
I am.
01:06:52.219 --> 01:06:58.045
But the one point of order I want to establish here is, where did those balloons come from?
01:06:59.686 --> 01:07:12.099
The one point of order I want to establish here is that I do not think there was ever a time when the church did not teach that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:16.543
Unless you want to count the time that Joseph Smith was alive.
01:07:16.824 --> 01:07:29.259
I mean, since Brigham Young I don't know that there's ever been a time, because I grew up in the church and I can't remember a time when I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:07:29.418 --> 01:07:36.327
I think that's unusual because that's not discussed in a lot of families and a lot of circumstances, but it was discussed in mine.
01:07:36.347 --> 01:07:41.494
And if you, section 132 has been in print.
01:07:41.614 --> 01:07:41.693
Yeah.
01:07:42.210 --> 01:07:48.918
since, uh, I guess it's 1870 when it was added to the Doctrine and Covenants, but it's been in print since then.
01:07:48.938 --> 01:08:00.813
And, and it's very clear that the position of the church in section 132 is that this is a revelation that was given to Joseph Smith and therefore Joseph Smith was in fact a polygamist.
01:08:00.873 --> 01:08:13.041
So, I mean, so I, I think that it's important to note that and, and Either or of you guys are welcome to push back on that, but I just wanted to jump in before, Michelle.
01:08:13.061 --> 01:08:16.436
I let you loose to answer Ian's questions.
01:08:16.801 --> 01:08:20.024
When I respond, well, I'll do my best to respond quickly to each of these things.
01:08:20.125 --> 01:08:27.091
I will say, I think that there's a difference between being a Utah Mormon descendant of polygamists, right, and having the perspective that we have.
01:08:27.551 --> 01:08:33.997
And I know that the missionaries for a long time did not teach people, did not teach people that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:08:34.356 --> 01:08:39.761
And I know that the term anti-Mormon lies has been applied to Joseph Smith's polygamy many times.
01:08:39.881 --> 01:08:49.943
And I can't dig out right now any leadership quotes, but I know definitely that we were trying intentionally to understate, undermine the idea that Joseph was a polygamist.
01:08:50.023 --> 01:09:02.051
I don't know that it's fair to say I even know some, well, I think it's strange for Utah descendants of polygamists to hear other people say they never knew that Joseph was a polygamist.
01:09:02.412 --> 01:09:11.842
But I think that people who are outside of Utah and not descendants from women's are very valid and legitimate to say that they were not taught that and they were taught the opposite.
01:09:11.863 --> 01:09:13.283
Do you have anything to add?
01:09:13.344 --> 01:09:14.404
That was not taught.
01:09:14.586 --> 01:09:15.145
It was hidden.
01:09:15.185 --> 01:09:17.029
It was not discussed.
01:09:17.088 --> 01:09:18.170
I think that's absolutely true.
01:09:18.434 --> 01:09:21.407
And it was claimed to be anti-woman lies.
01:09:21.787 --> 01:09:21.948
Right.
01:09:21.969 --> 01:09:23.395
Like it was claimed to be untrue.
01:09:23.515 --> 01:09:23.978
So that was,
01:09:24.460 --> 01:09:25.042
yeah.
01:09:25.323 --> 01:09:35.783
But in terms of the official position of the church, It has never been, the church has never taught since Brigham Young that Joseph was not a polygamist.
01:09:36.384 --> 01:09:37.505
Not as an official teaching.
01:09:37.564 --> 01:09:47.453
Not as an official teaching, but culturally, we have hidden it, we have refused to discuss it, we have obfuscated, and we have outright lied in a number of cases.
01:09:47.554 --> 01:09:48.875
Yes, I agree with that.
01:09:48.935 --> 01:09:54.819
And then just really quickly to hit on the Elder Oaks question, since I forgot it last time, and then I have a lot to say on the rest of it.
01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:57.221
You'll have to, again, make sure I get all of it touched on.
01:09:57.242 --> 01:09:59.484
But I think it is a Shame.
01:09:59.505 --> 01:10:05.694
A terrible, terrible shame that we say that men can be sealed to two women and women cannot be sealed to two men.
01:10:05.753 --> 01:10:12.824
And actually, I get in trouble for being emotional, but sometimes these things do make me emotional because of the fallout that I see.
01:10:13.646 --> 01:10:16.971
We have a horrible problem in this church for young widows.
01:10:17.932 --> 01:10:23.181
Women who lose a husband are in this terrible, untouchable class.
01:10:23.681 --> 01:10:37.997
where they have, it's not the Scarlet A, it's the Scarlet W on their chest, where they are forced to choose either to break their ceiling with their husband, who they loved and who died, and who his family is telling her, you better not break your ceiling with our son.
01:10:38.578 --> 01:10:39.841
I mean, these situations I know.
01:10:40.546 --> 01:10:46.636
or having other men in the church refuse to date them and refuse to marry them because he is left alone.
01:10:46.676 --> 01:10:49.962
The children that they have will be sealed to the first husband.
01:10:50.083 --> 01:10:51.886
It is an absolute mess.
01:10:52.006 --> 01:10:56.175
Here we have a situation where Jesus told us to care for the widows and the orphans.
01:10:56.255 --> 01:11:02.246
And we have a doctrine that is built on the backs and crushes the widows in our church.
01:11:02.627 --> 01:11:04.510
And it is an absolute mess.
01:11:04.770 --> 01:11:06.494
It is a shame.
01:11:06.555 --> 01:11:07.918
I don't have strong enough language.
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:09.944
It makes me so upset, right?
01:11:10.646 --> 01:11:12.713
I have a friend who told me the situation.
01:11:12.734 --> 01:11:15.742
She was a widow.
01:11:15.802 --> 01:11:16.664
She married a widower.
01:11:17.537 --> 01:11:20.283
And so they weren't sealed and they had children together.
01:11:20.304 --> 01:11:30.845
One time they were driving home and, you know, it wasn't an issue for them because they were both already sealed, but their little child was talking about their primary lesson and saying how glad he was that they were an eternal family.
01:11:30.926 --> 01:11:32.488
And, you know, because that was the lesson.
01:11:32.569 --> 01:11:37.279
And one of the older siblings that was broke said, you're not, you weren't an eternal family.
01:11:37.298 --> 01:11:38.421
You're not sealed to dad.
01:11:38.913 --> 01:11:39.675
And he said, what?
01:11:39.775 --> 01:11:44.323
And this child found out that he was sealed to some man who had died who he'd never met, right?
01:11:44.404 --> 01:11:49.554
And it was devastating and has continued to affect that family's relationship with the church.
01:11:50.135 --> 01:11:54.261
This is deplorable and inexcusable and needs to stop.
01:11:55.003 --> 01:11:55.984
We tell women...
01:11:56.417 --> 01:12:23.670
just have faith we tell women like like elder oaks gave a talk in general conference about how stock started out talking about a letter that a woman wrote saying well i have to share a house in the celestial kingdom and and he laughed and everybody laughed and we we can laugh at the genuine heartache of women that this false doctrine love this it was not okay and so for me We are perfectly happy to tell women, just trust God, God will work it out.
01:12:23.729 --> 01:12:24.470
Well, you know what?
01:12:24.912 --> 01:12:26.215
That goes for everybody.
01:12:26.234 --> 01:12:33.288
If I were, you know, Empress for a day, and I'm not, and I recognize that, but I wish deeply.
01:12:33.826 --> 01:12:38.755
that the church would recognize that we don't understand everything and we don't know everything that we think we know.
01:12:38.795 --> 01:12:47.931
And if we would just allow both women and men to be sealed to another spouse after their spouse dies and say, we trust God to work it out.
01:12:48.472 --> 01:12:50.957
Maybe, you know, receive more light and knowledge.
01:12:51.426 --> 01:12:52.407
That would be lovely.
01:12:52.448 --> 01:12:57.335
I think it is a terrible tragedy that we have this inequality in our church.
01:12:57.395 --> 01:13:01.881
And it's just one of many that needs to be given voice and it needs to be spoken out to.
01:13:01.921 --> 01:13:04.484
So when you ask what drives me, these are the things that drive me.
01:13:04.505 --> 01:13:05.907
I think this is not okay.
01:13:05.966 --> 01:13:08.070
So that's my answer to that question.
01:13:08.690 --> 01:13:13.658
And then, yes, I am extremely familiar with the work of Brian Hills.
01:13:14.739 --> 01:13:19.606
Unfortunately, Brian Hills is the one who sets the narrative for the church.
01:13:19.707 --> 01:13:26.273
You know, we have these utterly deniable gospel doctrine essays that aren't signed.
01:13:26.393 --> 01:13:27.715
They're not statements of the church.
01:13:27.734 --> 01:13:29.216
They're just on the church website.
01:13:29.537 --> 01:13:33.243
No, you know, so that they can, but anyway, and Brian C.
01:13:33.262 --> 01:13:38.170
Hales was heavily involved in writing the one for the Nauvoo, for Nauvoo polygamy.
01:13:38.210 --> 01:13:43.057
His trilogy is, oh, I have so much I could say.
01:13:43.554 --> 01:13:45.877
In my opinion, Brian C.
01:13:46.137 --> 01:13:55.493
Hales is best seen not as a historian, because he's not, but as an apologist in the negative sense of the word, not the positive sense of the word, right?
01:13:56.173 --> 01:14:00.461
Brian has been involved in trying to get me excommunicated from the church.
01:14:01.362 --> 01:14:06.390
He is not willing to engage in discourse, and he does not want these ideas spread.
01:14:06.430 --> 01:14:11.337
He wants people silenced and punished for daring to disagree with him.
01:14:11.778 --> 01:14:13.381
He doesn't say that about other issues.
01:14:13.402 --> 01:14:18.274
It's just him trying to protect his status as the one that, this is my perspective.
01:14:18.336 --> 01:14:23.309
And I try to, I'm trying to play nicely, but this gets really personal.
01:14:24.354 --> 01:14:26.377
Engage in honest history.
01:14:26.396 --> 01:14:27.979
Engage in discourse.
01:14:28.359 --> 01:14:35.189
Do not use these sneaky behind-the-scenes power games to try to get people deplatformed from historical conferences, which he did.
01:14:35.229 --> 01:14:39.997
And he's like beside himself that I haven't been excommunicated.
01:14:40.037 --> 01:14:47.667
He's constantly talking about what local leaders should do, and he's pulling whatever channels he can to try to get people excommunicated.
01:14:47.707 --> 01:14:49.010
He doesn't know my family.
01:14:49.050 --> 01:14:51.153
He doesn't know my relationship with the church.
01:14:51.293 --> 01:14:53.796
I think that is inexcusable again, right?
01:14:54.434 --> 01:15:01.202
So I think that if we have a good narrative, it should be able to be discussed rigorously and it shouldn't have to be silenced.
01:15:01.261 --> 01:15:14.257
And so I have personally caught Brian Hales being deeply dishonest with historical documents, claiming he has seen things and claiming they say things that they do not say and vice versa.
01:15:14.318 --> 01:15:22.436
He claims that the leaders of the church never taught That polygamy was required for exaltation, which is blatantly false.
01:15:23.478 --> 01:15:26.240
So Brian Hills sets the narrative for the church.
01:15:26.320 --> 01:15:30.805
And if we want to be in line with the church, we have to believe the church narrative according to Brian Hills.
01:15:30.984 --> 01:15:37.250
I strongly disagree, which would requires us literally to believe that God did indeed send an angel with a sword.
01:15:37.270 --> 01:15:40.153
He clarifies it was a drawn sword, not a flaming sword.
01:15:40.193 --> 01:15:41.514
We have sources that say both.
01:15:41.613 --> 01:15:42.395
It's ridiculous.
01:15:42.595 --> 01:15:44.155
It is ridiculous.
01:15:44.176 --> 01:15:49.483
But we are required to believe that God sent an angel with a sword threatening to kill Joseph if he didn't betray Emma.
01:15:49.502 --> 01:15:53.836
And Emma was apt to blame for that, for not getting on board with it.
01:15:54.759 --> 01:15:56.042
That's what we are required to believe.
01:15:56.082 --> 01:16:09.060
We are required to believe that polygamy, I mean, we are required to believe things that are an intellectual complete contradiction to the actual historical record that we can believe for ourselves, that we can read for ourselves, right?
01:16:09.081 --> 01:16:13.685
The church's stance on polygamy right now is a complete, complete mess.
01:16:14.065 --> 01:16:19.230
And it's because they rely on Brian Hales to give them the narrative that they think is the best for them.
01:16:19.350 --> 01:16:23.314
And I strongly, strongly disagree that it is the best for them.
01:16:23.375 --> 01:16:29.582
I think it is a terrible narrative for the church to hold to because it is verifiably untrue.
01:16:30.113 --> 01:16:34.786
And the more that people see that, the more it weakens the credibility of the church, right?
01:16:34.865 --> 01:16:38.534
We need to be able to trust that the church is telling us the truth.
01:16:38.715 --> 01:16:41.181
Enough of people feeling like the church lied to them.
01:16:41.601 --> 01:16:46.047
And we are pushing false narratives on the people.
01:16:46.127 --> 01:16:55.079
And then we have people trying to enforce those narratives and saying, if you speak aloud and disagree with the narrative I said, I will see that you are excommunicated from the church.
01:16:55.860 --> 01:16:57.703
I cannot abide that.
01:16:58.243 --> 01:17:02.789
I don't know what I can't remember what the rest of your question was, Ian, but I'm happy to try to get to the rest of it.
01:17:03.202 --> 01:17:08.694
No, you've done a fantastic job and your passion, your strength is incredible, actually.
01:17:09.135 --> 01:17:10.698
And I'm glad you brought up the Brian T.
01:17:10.738 --> 01:17:11.000
Hills.
01:17:11.740 --> 01:17:18.697
And I think this, for many of our listeners, they've probably not heard about these issues.
01:17:18.716 --> 01:17:22.425
What I have to say is I'd love to get you back on again.
01:17:23.137 --> 01:17:24.859
actually, and do a deep dive on this.
01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:27.943
It's something that really interests me, and I'd be most interested in that.
01:17:28.564 --> 01:17:31.485
I just want to go back to another question, and you've answered my question, thank you.
01:17:31.506 --> 01:17:41.336
I want to go back to another key thread that runs through this conversation, because I think it connects so many things, maybe.
01:17:42.037 --> 01:17:44.779
What was the objective of the church with polygamy?
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:46.442
You know, you've got these big disconnects.
01:17:46.481 --> 01:17:47.443
You've got the Brian C.
01:17:47.462 --> 01:17:50.405
Hales position, you've got your position, you've got the church...
01:17:50.978 --> 01:17:58.292
walking this fine balancing act, you know, didn't want to talk about it, wants to go away, making all these claims, some true, not true.
01:17:58.332 --> 01:18:07.788
If we go back to the main thrust of polygamy, the main principle, the fundamental objective, if you like, of polygamy, what was it?
01:18:08.029 --> 01:18:23.900
Was it something as base as men wanting to sleep with more women and justify that in some spiritual cloak, et cetera, the infidelity of men, men taking advantage of women, et cetera?
01:18:24.381 --> 01:18:26.323
Or was it more spiritual?
01:18:26.503 --> 01:18:29.847
Was it a command from God?
01:18:29.887 --> 01:18:36.838
In your research, is there any evidence that God did command you know, men to have polygamy.
01:18:36.859 --> 01:18:40.882
Because we read about it in the Bible, you know, concubines, and it's referenced in the Book of Mormon.
01:18:41.423 --> 01:18:42.305
So I guess there's two questions.
01:18:42.345 --> 01:18:46.609
What was the main objective of the church in introducing the polygamy?
01:18:46.628 --> 01:18:47.789
What was it trying to achieve?
01:18:47.810 --> 01:19:05.670
And the second question is, do you accept any evidence, based on your research, that God is ultimately behind this principle and practice and that he commands this principle and practice periodically throughout history.
01:19:05.729 --> 01:19:08.283
Sometimes he wants it, other times he doesn't.
01:19:08.685 --> 01:19:11.358
So there's two questions there.
01:19:11.554 --> 01:19:13.336
So these are more huge questions.
01:19:13.395 --> 01:19:16.377
I will do my best to answer them as concisely as I possibly can.
01:19:16.417 --> 01:19:22.302
First of all, no, there is no scriptural evidence that God ever has ever commanded polygamy.
01:19:22.422 --> 01:19:23.264
Quite the opposite.
01:19:23.344 --> 01:19:31.631
We have scripture after scripture, including in Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenants section 142, thou shalt cleave to thy wife and only thy wife and no one else.
01:19:32.032 --> 01:19:35.475
And even to look upon a woman to lust after her is adultery, right?
01:19:35.854 --> 01:19:37.537
And polygamy is declared to be abomination.
01:19:37.617 --> 01:19:42.282
Verse one of section 132 falsely says that God commanded polygamy.
01:19:42.322 --> 01:19:43.184
He never did.
01:19:43.224 --> 01:19:44.847
There's nothing in the historical record.
01:19:45.167 --> 01:19:54.128
You can see how every time polygamy happened, why it happened, it never was as a result of God, and it always led to terrible, terrible outcomes.
01:19:54.594 --> 01:19:55.975
By their fruit, she shall know them, right?
01:19:56.015 --> 01:19:59.140
So we could go into the biblical discussion, but that would be a big discussion.
01:19:59.220 --> 01:20:00.021
I'm happy to have it.
01:20:00.382 --> 01:20:03.488
To the other question of where this comes from.
01:20:03.507 --> 01:20:05.551
So there are many ways to answer this.
01:20:05.591 --> 01:20:08.354
And I think that different people, all different people are different, right?
01:20:08.435 --> 01:20:12.862
I think that the majority of the people were convinced that this is actually was of God.
01:20:12.881 --> 01:20:18.430
There were many people in Utah who did not want to be polygamous, but who wanted exaltation, right?
01:20:18.449 --> 01:20:21.435
That's definitely the case of many, many people.
01:20:21.755 --> 01:20:26.148
If we go back to the beginning, This is one thing, and I don't want to...
01:20:26.188 --> 01:20:33.274
This is a very big and nuanced conversation, so I'll try to give it just kind of from a high-level view, if that's okay.
01:20:33.295 --> 01:20:35.797
Then we can dig in maybe in our next conversation if you'd like to.
01:20:35.837 --> 01:20:38.220
But here's kind of a situation.
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:44.286
Incredibly powerful men who seem like they have the world in their hands, right?
01:20:44.365 --> 01:20:48.270
Like, we can look at politicians, athletes, actors, whatever it is.
01:20:48.289 --> 01:20:52.253
A man that reaches the pinnacle does not have limits, right?
01:20:52.481 --> 01:20:53.344
for the most part, right?
01:20:53.423 --> 01:20:56.871
He's not limited in his money, in his wealth, in his access.
01:20:57.271 --> 01:20:59.917
He can have as many cars as he wants, as many homes as he wants.
01:20:59.938 --> 01:21:05.048
And most men in that position also can have as many women as they want, right?
01:21:06.050 --> 01:21:20.837
It's a big challenge for a religious man who reaches the pinnacle because he can have as many, I mean, Brigham Young built home after home after home after home as people, as one of my great-great-grandmothers was starving to death and dug out Lehi, literally died of starvation, right?
01:21:21.578 --> 01:21:29.373
A man at the pinnacle who is religious needs a way to not be limited to one wife, right?
01:21:29.506 --> 01:21:29.806
Right.
01:21:29.827 --> 01:21:31.653
And it's not so much.
01:21:31.734 --> 01:21:33.801
Well, there are so many discussions we could go to with this.
01:21:34.341 --> 01:21:42.350
But I think the polygamy naturally grows out of a religious mindset for men at the pinnacle who find a way that God can.
01:21:42.658 --> 01:21:43.680
removes the limits.
01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:45.442
We have that with David and Solomon.
01:21:45.483 --> 01:21:46.765
We have it with many others, right?
01:21:47.225 --> 01:21:49.269
Polygamy is part of the natural man.
01:21:49.309 --> 01:21:53.154
We can look back in many different societies, Genghis Khan.
01:21:53.295 --> 01:21:56.940
And I mean, again and again, like women were seen as booty.
01:21:57.341 --> 01:22:02.990
And the more powerful you were, the bigger your kingdom was, the bigger your army was, the bigger your palace was, and the bigger your harem was.
01:22:03.511 --> 01:22:06.076
And that holds true in Mormon polygamy, right?
01:22:06.136 --> 01:22:08.439
So it's not just lust.
01:22:08.659 --> 01:22:09.581
It's a bigger...
01:22:10.529 --> 01:22:24.319
story it's power and lust and being at the top right polygamy is a very testosterone driven institution i'll go into this really quickly because i did an episode on Brain chemistry, polygamy in the male brain, I think is what that episode is called.
01:22:24.338 --> 01:22:26.181
And it was fascinating to me to study this out.
01:22:26.943 --> 01:22:31.831
Men's brains, a single man's brain is very testosterone driven.
01:22:31.871 --> 01:22:36.479
It's very high in testosterone because testosterone is the conquest hormone, right?
01:22:36.559 --> 01:22:40.104
The hunt and find, you're jockeying for position.
01:22:40.164 --> 01:22:41.527
Where do I rank in the hierarchy?
01:22:41.627 --> 01:22:44.631
And I need to get the wife, get the woman, right?
01:22:45.011 --> 01:22:46.435
That is all very testosterone.
01:22:46.774 --> 01:22:50.997
Once a man is married, Different brain chemicals take over.
01:22:51.037 --> 01:22:57.488
His testosterone actually lowers and his oxytocin rises because it's no longer conquest and hunt and find.
01:22:57.587 --> 01:22:59.150
It's now bond, right?
01:22:59.532 --> 01:23:06.823
So his brain chemistry actually changes and he's no longer jockeying for position that same way and he's not out on the prowl the same way.
01:23:06.884 --> 01:23:07.604
He's now bonding.
01:23:08.226 --> 01:23:19.561
Once that couple has a child, his testosterone again goes down and his oxytocin again rises because it's now bond and protect and provide and defend, right?
01:23:20.042 --> 01:23:34.255
And you can see this happening when we look at societies where it's like, even, you know, like, movies of different cultures, whereas the young men who want to go to war and the older men who are fathers who are saying, hold on, what other options do we have, right?
01:23:34.815 --> 01:23:40.327
And that is a genuine result of very positive brain chemistry that happens.
01:23:40.567 --> 01:23:56.243
And so for me, as someone who believes in God, I look at this and I have looked at polygamy Every single way, sociologically, psychologically, biologically, in every single way, like all things testify of Christ, all things testify of God's establishment of monogamy, right?
01:23:56.844 --> 01:24:05.836
A fascinating thing is that studies have been done that show that in polygamy, a male brain does not undergo the same changes.
01:24:06.596 --> 01:24:10.943
Because even when a man is married, if he's polygamous, he's still on the prowl.
01:24:11.082 --> 01:24:12.645
He's still jockeying for position.
01:24:12.765 --> 01:24:14.400
I have I've mentioned this before.
01:24:14.421 --> 01:24:22.760
I have a sister who, you know, polygamists are very heavily involved in construction, especially in Utah and the surrounding areas, right?
01:24:23.301 --> 01:24:26.108
And she was working for a construction company.
01:24:26.167 --> 01:24:27.971
And so she was dealing with a lot of polygamist men.
01:24:28.051 --> 01:24:33.506
And she had several experiences of seeing married men Still on the prowl.
01:24:33.847 --> 01:24:36.511
It was very foreign to her, but this is what it is.
01:24:36.932 --> 01:24:45.087
She told me about a story where there was a woman in her prairie dress sitting, nursing the baby, taking care of the toddler, and in walked a pretty girl.
01:24:45.146 --> 01:24:46.829
And her husband stood up.
01:24:46.909 --> 01:24:56.405
I mean, it's like this outright flirting that a monogamous man go through a training and a discipline that changes who they are.
01:24:56.833 --> 01:24:59.479
actually to the level of their brain chemistry, right?
01:24:59.498 --> 01:25:02.564
And in polygamy, that doesn't happen.
01:25:02.623 --> 01:25:10.077
And that's how we get a King David who was standing out watching the mikvah on the roof, which was the women's ritual bath.
01:25:10.278 --> 01:25:11.038
Shocking, right?
01:25:11.479 --> 01:25:21.578
And his lust was, he was so used to feeding his lust, to not having limits, that even when there was a woman who was already married, he could not handle not having his lust gratified.
01:25:22.082 --> 01:25:25.189
And so I think polygamy is multifaceted.
01:25:25.210 --> 01:25:27.676
It's so easy for men to say, oh, I wouldn't want that.
01:25:28.436 --> 01:25:39.944
But when you are, I don't know, you've been married for a while and there's a young pretty girl, when most monogamous men are trained to say, no, I am committed to my wife, right?
01:25:40.417 --> 01:25:44.826
But when your wife's had a couple of kids, maybe things are a little bit difficult.
01:25:44.886 --> 01:25:49.635
You're equally yoked, and it's hard for a man and a woman to—marriage is hard, right?
01:25:49.675 --> 01:25:53.862
How much easier to be able to just go get that young girl instead?
01:25:53.881 --> 01:25:57.007
But, you know, who wants to be stuck with a woman in her 40s?
01:25:57.047 --> 01:26:02.557
When you can have girls that are 15 and 16 is kind of how the mindset changes, right?
01:26:02.786 --> 01:26:07.996
And so it's very pernicious and it can be subtle until you actually look into it.
01:26:08.015 --> 01:26:13.466
That was the thing I realized of how naive I was, was in marriage, marriage is hard.
01:26:13.485 --> 01:26:15.029
It is hard, right?
01:26:15.069 --> 01:26:16.332
To keep a relationship healthy.
01:26:16.372 --> 01:26:18.636
And the thing we have going for us is that we're equally yoked.
01:26:19.136 --> 01:26:23.545
My husband is as invested in our relationship as I am.
01:26:23.585 --> 01:26:27.617
As soon as polygamy enters, That flies out the window.
01:26:27.756 --> 01:26:34.810
And what we get is a man who has all of the power and the women who hope to please him and try to be his favorite.
01:26:34.850 --> 01:26:37.314
And Keep Sweet grows automatically out of that.
01:26:37.354 --> 01:26:41.222
And we see the beginnings of it in the early Utah polygamist era, right?
01:26:41.302 --> 01:26:44.829
And so it just devastates us.
01:26:45.122 --> 01:26:48.305
human relationships in so many different ways.
01:26:48.725 --> 01:26:55.313
And so, and you know, we do have this story of Brigham Young meeting his last favorite wife and seeing her at the railway station.
01:26:55.493 --> 01:27:00.519
And here he is in, you know, I'm sorry, a dirty old man, you know, just like David was a dirty old man.
01:27:00.599 --> 01:27:03.902
When David was an old man, David in the Bible, they couldn't keep him warm.
01:27:03.962 --> 01:27:06.685
So I don't know, if you can't keep grandpa warm, what do you do?
01:27:06.744 --> 01:27:09.568
Like put him by the fire, put blankets on him, give him warm soup.
01:27:10.029 --> 01:27:17.662
No, with David, what they needed to do was find the most beautiful young girl And so they do go through the whole thing.
01:27:18.113 --> 01:27:25.180
to find Abishag, who is, I don't know, 12, 13, 14, and they have her lie with David.
01:27:25.220 --> 01:27:31.345
He's too old to consummate, but these are terrible, terrible things to defend.
01:27:32.006 --> 01:27:35.689
When we read the early Mormons, they're defending these things.
01:27:35.708 --> 01:27:41.434
They're proclaiming how much God loves his faithful polygamous leaders because he provides for them in this way, right?
01:27:41.755 --> 01:27:47.600
So yeah, you have Brigham Young at the train station seeing this 22-year-old girl and wanting her.
01:27:48.079 --> 01:27:49.662
being able to have her, right?
01:27:49.962 --> 01:27:57.132
And so it really changes the way that, like, it changes the way that polygamous men perceive the world.
01:27:57.654 --> 01:28:04.944
And I could go into, like, Joseph Smith, if we look at his life, this is one of the evidences to me, he and Emma really were equally yoked.
01:28:05.324 --> 01:28:35.604
We could read their letters to each other, the way they spoke to each other, the way they relied on each other and trusted each other, how Joseph had Emma involved in his business dealings, how he trusted her, how Joseph put Emma first in as the president of the relief society and told the women to sustain her i'm sorry polygamous men do not do this with women in general and particularly with women who oppose polygamy right we can go to brigham young's sermons that he gave to the um Remember, I think it might have been the elders and the 70.
01:28:35.904 --> 01:28:40.869
He gave the same, a very similar sermon twice that we have some records available to us of.
01:28:41.310 --> 01:28:45.354
And if you read what he said, it's a sermon where he told, where he disbanded the Relief Society.
01:28:45.395 --> 01:28:50.539
He told them that if you see women huddling together, veto the affair.
01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:52.622
Like he said, women were not allowed to talk to each other.
01:28:52.662 --> 01:28:54.623
The Relief Society is, what are Relief Societies for?
01:28:54.663 --> 01:28:56.725
To relieve us of our best men, right?
01:28:56.746 --> 01:28:58.568
He blamed the Relief Society.
01:28:58.667 --> 01:29:04.363
And in one of those sermons, He says, any man who is led by a woman will be led directly to hell.
01:29:04.422 --> 01:29:08.047
No woman will ever get into the celestial kingdom unless she's led there by a man.
01:29:08.108 --> 01:29:10.131
And a man who follows a woman will go directly to hell.
01:29:10.551 --> 01:29:14.856
And then he literally says these words, God knew what Eve was.
01:29:16.298 --> 01:29:16.498
Right?
01:29:16.579 --> 01:29:20.944
We can see a history of Brigham Young as sort of a woman hater to some extent.
01:29:21.025 --> 01:29:28.775
We can look at the dynamic between Brigham and his wife and compared to the dynamic between Joseph and his wife.
01:29:28.815 --> 01:29:29.417
So it just...
01:29:30.658 --> 01:29:35.684
Polygamy grows out of a different kind of mindset, and then it creates a different kind of mindset.
01:29:35.804 --> 01:29:45.734
And I think it is very contrary to the kind of godly men that God expects his true followers to be.
01:29:45.755 --> 01:29:45.774
I
01:29:48.738 --> 01:29:50.479
can't thank you enough for that perspective.
01:29:50.619 --> 01:29:57.832
I think it's really interesting to think of it in that way, and I hadn't thought of it in terms of the the man on the prowl.
01:29:59.073 --> 01:30:07.627
We want to wind this up here a little bit, but we would very much, I would very much like to have you come back and do more of a deep dive on some of this.
01:30:07.646 --> 01:30:09.890
I want to share a quick story.
01:30:09.930 --> 01:30:14.738
So my great-grandfather on my father's side is Heber J.
01:30:14.778 --> 01:30:22.810
Grant, who was, people don't realize was a polygamist because by the time he became president of the church, two of his three wives had died.
01:30:23.586 --> 01:30:30.595
And so he sort of presented as a monogamist as president of the church, but he was in fact a polygamist.
01:30:30.635 --> 01:30:33.057
And one of the wives that had died is my great-grandmother.
01:30:33.097 --> 01:30:39.525
And at one point, my grandmother, who was Heber J.
01:30:39.565 --> 01:30:49.398
Grant's last surviving daughter, passed away in 1995, I think it was, was going through some of his letters.
01:30:50.369 --> 01:30:54.836
his letters to my great-grandmother and letters to his other polygamous wives.
01:30:55.837 --> 01:30:56.677
And one of Heber J.
01:30:56.698 --> 01:31:02.005
Grant's grandsons was Truman Madsen, who's my first cousin once removed.
01:31:02.985 --> 01:31:05.269
And he was going through these letters with my grandmother.
01:31:05.429 --> 01:31:11.896
And he said to her, Francis, you need to publish these because these are so lovely.
01:31:12.297 --> 01:31:15.161
And they demonstrate that polygamy was not terrible.
01:31:16.181 --> 01:31:22.770
And they show how a polygamous relationship Kieber J.
01:31:22.810 --> 01:31:29.560
Grant practiced polygamy in a magnanimous and wonderful way, and his relationship with his wives was so beautiful.
01:31:30.002 --> 01:31:32.786
This would be so good for the church if you were to publish these.
01:31:34.068 --> 01:31:37.453
And my grandmother thought, well, jeez, I don't know.
01:31:37.514 --> 01:31:38.194
What should I do?
01:31:38.234 --> 01:31:40.318
And called Spencer W.
01:31:40.377 --> 01:31:43.061
Kimball, who was the president of the church at the time.
01:31:44.344 --> 01:31:45.305
And Spencer W.
01:31:45.345 --> 01:31:47.869
Kimball was on her doorstep that same day.
01:31:48.833 --> 01:31:49.895
to talk to her about it.
01:31:50.956 --> 01:31:56.162
And what he said to her was, you are under absolutely no obligation to publish these.
01:31:57.283 --> 01:32:03.869
And furthermore, there's a lot of polygamy in my family and it isn't lovely.
01:32:03.890 --> 01:32:06.193
It's really kind of ugly.
01:32:06.233 --> 01:32:13.020
And so this was the time in the church when it was, let's not talk about this at all.
01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:14.641
Let's tamp this down.
01:32:14.681 --> 01:32:16.162
Let's not discuss it.
01:32:16.564 --> 01:32:18.506
Let's hope it just sort of goes away.
01:32:19.297 --> 01:32:25.069
And that was the counsel that the president of the church gave my grandmother all those years ago.
01:32:25.090 --> 01:32:31.262
And I think we are now dealing with a reckoning with this.
01:32:32.265 --> 01:32:40.728
One of the big problems we have in the church is that we think if we just don't talk about it, if we just sort of move on, that the problem goes away.
01:32:40.988 --> 01:32:45.015
We're seeing that not just with polygamy, but we're also definitely seeing it with race.
01:32:45.175 --> 01:32:49.703
I went on tour with the Tabernacle Choir, and we sang in the Martin Luther King Jr.
01:32:49.762 --> 01:33:14.368
Chapel with Spelman and Morehouse Colleges, these traditionally black colleges in Georgia, and sort of tried to say, okay, here we are with this wonderful racial reconciliation that we're having with the world, but it's not getting there because we still haven't reckoned with our legacy on that issue.
01:33:14.488 --> 01:33:20.055
As Paul Reeve has said, how can you root out racism if we don't look at its roots?
01:33:21.318 --> 01:33:24.521
And I think the same principle applies with polygamy.
01:33:24.841 --> 01:33:28.587
Again, you have not convinced me that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.
01:33:29.207 --> 01:33:37.439
You have convinced me that we have not addressed this issue head on.
01:33:39.801 --> 01:33:44.007
Brian Hales apparently used to sing in the Tabernacle Choir.
01:33:44.028 --> 01:33:46.011
I hear lovely things about him as a human being.
01:33:46.532 --> 01:33:49.957
I think it's terrible that he's trying to get anybody excommunicated, least of all you.
01:33:49.997 --> 01:33:52.862
Not least of all, I mean most of all you.
01:33:54.063 --> 01:33:58.569
But this isn't an indictment of Brian Hales or anybody else.
01:33:58.810 --> 01:34:01.895
It's a, look, we don't have a choice anymore.
01:34:02.796 --> 01:34:04.398
We have to look at these things.
01:34:04.498 --> 01:34:05.680
We have to confront them.
01:34:05.739 --> 01:34:07.863
We have to to reckon with them.
01:34:07.962 --> 01:34:23.703
And even if we have to accept that Brigham Young introduced polygamy, even though we've taught that Joseph did, or we have to accept that, no, Joseph did, in fact, teach polygamy, and this is a stain on Joseph.
01:34:24.545 --> 01:34:27.387
Because right now, it's a stain on all of us.
01:34:28.128 --> 01:34:37.463
Not necessarily even because polygamy is right or wrong, but because we aren't willing to to confront and accept our history.
01:34:38.626 --> 01:34:42.289
Can I just add one thing, just really quickly to what you're saying?
01:34:42.310 --> 01:34:54.184
I do want to say, I did not want to get into the question of Joseph Smith for huge reasons, because I knew it would eclipse what I see as the far more important message that I want to get out.
01:34:54.984 --> 01:34:58.467
My overarching message is, polygamy is not of God.
01:34:58.488 --> 01:35:00.331
And I hope that you're saying that.
01:35:00.371 --> 01:35:06.676
I don't know that you needed to be convinced of that, but the But that is what our church needs to deal with at its core.
01:35:06.716 --> 01:35:12.988
As I continue to research, I learned to my great surprise that I also believe it's not of Joseph Smith.
01:35:13.310 --> 01:35:15.252
But that's not the important issue.
01:35:15.274 --> 01:35:17.136
The important issue is it's not of God.
01:35:17.157 --> 01:35:23.831
I don't know if I'm willing to go there fully.
01:35:25.132 --> 01:35:25.273
Yeah.
01:35:26.050 --> 01:35:27.672
I'm willing to consider that.
01:35:29.074 --> 01:35:32.159
When I got married, my wife said exactly what you're saying.
01:35:32.239 --> 01:35:33.082
Polygamy is not of God.
01:35:33.101 --> 01:35:34.143
It was all just nonsense.
01:35:34.904 --> 01:35:35.926
And I thought, oh, crud.
01:35:37.349 --> 01:35:38.369
My wife's going to hell.
01:35:38.890 --> 01:35:41.015
She's not a true believer.
01:35:41.034 --> 01:35:44.661
And the more I've looked at this, the more I've gotten into this.
01:35:46.824 --> 01:35:49.368
Whether something is of God or not is...
01:35:51.105 --> 01:36:00.725
is a really large and in some ways personal question because, you know, we talked yesterday about section 132 and you said, you know, is this of God?
01:36:00.765 --> 01:36:05.795
And I can point you to parts of section 132 that I absolutely believe are of God.
01:36:05.814 --> 01:36:06.596
I agree.
01:36:06.617 --> 01:36:10.744
And then I can point you to parts in section 132 that I think are absolutely abhorrent.
01:36:11.806 --> 01:36:12.970
And so...
01:36:13.314 --> 01:36:22.805
Reconciling that, that I think to a large degree is the purpose of mortality, trying to figure out where God's hand is in everything.
01:36:22.905 --> 01:36:28.192
And so I'm not willing to say that God's hand could not have in any way been involved in polygamy.
01:36:29.413 --> 01:36:42.170
But I am willing to say that we need to ask that question and we need to confront it and be willing to follow wherever the truth leads.
01:36:43.073 --> 01:36:45.398
Yeah, I know we're wrapping up.
01:36:45.438 --> 01:37:02.444
I just wanted to respond to that one part really quickly and say that's where the historical work helps because it was so, so, I don't know, just like amazing to me when I saw the evidence to show that Joseph Smith did teach the beautiful parts of section that are now in section 132 because Joseph absolutely did.
01:37:02.945 --> 01:37:08.775
receive a revelation and teach it on eternal marriage that was later tampered with to create 132.
01:37:08.815 --> 01:37:12.622
So I just wanted to validate that I have the same perspective on section 132.
01:37:14.024 --> 01:37:19.354
And I think that that's important to recognize that that can be shown in the historical record.
01:37:20.833 --> 01:37:22.076
Ian, any parting thoughts?
01:37:22.515 --> 01:37:23.757
Yeah, just a few.
01:37:23.818 --> 01:37:24.418
I'll be real quick.
01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:27.162
Michelle, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
01:37:27.243 --> 01:37:28.625
I've learned so much from you.
01:37:28.664 --> 01:37:30.787
I think you're an extraordinary individual.
01:37:30.849 --> 01:37:31.389
I mean that.
01:37:31.649 --> 01:37:35.574
And I appreciate your feelings and respect them, your emotions.
01:37:36.356 --> 01:37:42.685
You know, this is a very important topic and I would love to have a more deeper dive on this for sure.
01:37:43.086 --> 01:37:43.927
Just some quick thoughts.
01:37:45.229 --> 01:37:45.369
I...
01:37:45.761 --> 01:37:51.010
Before you came on to the podcast and had the conversation, I believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
01:37:51.229 --> 01:37:58.320
Now, listening to you, and there's so much more to this conversation than we have time for right now, now I don't know.
01:37:58.341 --> 01:38:00.283
I've read the Brian C.
01:38:00.323 --> 01:38:00.944
Hale stuff.
01:38:01.125 --> 01:38:03.970
I know the church's official position, read the essay.
01:38:04.514 --> 01:38:07.037
I know this is a major, major issue for the church.
01:38:07.917 --> 01:38:10.079
Publicly, it denounces polygamy.
01:38:10.400 --> 01:38:16.106
Privately, we all know, let's face it, it still believes it and practices it in the temple.
01:38:17.047 --> 01:38:19.511
I think it would like it to go away.
01:38:19.530 --> 01:38:21.412
I don't think the church wants to talk about this.
01:38:22.755 --> 01:38:24.396
We want to put it in a box and lock it up.
01:38:25.257 --> 01:38:28.881
And I think that...
01:38:30.050 --> 01:38:31.811
That's a mistake from what you guys are saying.
01:38:31.891 --> 01:38:33.875
I think it's important to talk about this.
01:38:34.997 --> 01:38:38.020
I am willing to come out and say, and I've always felt this.
01:38:38.240 --> 01:38:39.582
I'm not sure if I shared this with Jim.
01:38:40.023 --> 01:38:42.246
I never believed polygamy was of God, ever.
01:38:43.167 --> 01:38:45.390
Even when I was a bishop or on the state presidency.
01:38:45.430 --> 01:38:46.452
I mean, that's irrelevant.
01:38:46.471 --> 01:38:47.573
That little calling is irrelevant.
01:38:47.632 --> 01:38:50.377
It's how I felt personally in my personal testament.
01:38:50.457 --> 01:38:57.405
I never accepted the rejection of the blacks in regards to the priesthood.
01:38:57.686 --> 01:38:57.886
Never.
01:38:57.907 --> 01:38:59.149
It always felt wrong.
01:38:59.208 --> 01:38:59.649
I've read.
01:39:00.162 --> 01:39:12.576
awful, disgusting, grotesque quotes by Brigham Young, mostly, I believe, from what I've read, in regards to the race and the priesthood, that, you know, I found deeply offensive.
01:39:12.615 --> 01:39:14.637
And I'm a white guy, right?
01:39:15.399 --> 01:39:20.805
I can't imagine how those black folks felt when they read that or when they come across that stuff.
01:39:21.865 --> 01:39:23.268
Race and the, you know, the...
01:39:25.601 --> 01:39:30.091
Rejection of blacks for the priesthood and temple blessings is not of God.
01:39:31.154 --> 01:39:31.774
Believe me.
01:39:31.795 --> 01:39:32.095
I agree.
01:39:32.777 --> 01:39:33.519
It's not of God.
01:39:33.538 --> 01:39:34.640
I've never believed that.
01:39:34.962 --> 01:39:49.725
I don't believe it now, but I would love to get you back on if Jim is open to this and having a deeper conversation because I think this is, this and the race of the priesthood, I think the two biggest differences challenges and barriers that the church faces.
01:39:50.145 --> 01:40:00.417
And it still hasn't yet, how many years now, 150, 160, 170 years, still with all of the intelligence that the church has, still hasn't figured it out.
01:40:00.698 --> 01:40:01.679
And where is it?
01:40:01.960 --> 01:40:05.404
I think you described it real, it's a complete mess.
01:40:05.644 --> 01:40:06.083
It really is.
01:40:06.125 --> 01:40:13.913
Anyway, I want to thank you so much for coming on and I hope you felt comfortable sharing your thoughts and your feelings.
01:40:14.850 --> 01:40:15.331
Oh, I did.
01:40:15.371 --> 01:40:17.114
I loved our, I loved our conversation.
01:40:17.175 --> 01:40:18.958
Thank you for letting me go off so many times.
01:40:18.979 --> 01:40:20.240
I really appreciate you guys.
01:40:21.342 --> 01:40:22.345
And we appreciate you.
01:40:22.365 --> 01:40:23.287
Thank you very much.
01:40:23.507 --> 01:40:27.355
And we also appreciate all of you spending this time with us, listening to Inside Out.
01:40:27.456 --> 01:40:32.546
Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast to be notified when new episodes drop.
01:40:33.469 --> 01:40:40.229
And, uh, We're just grateful for all of our listeners and for everybody that is part of this discussion.
01:40:41.493 --> 01:40:46.203
And until next time, we will look forward to seeing you on Inside Out.
01:40:46.965 --> 01:40:48.006
And thank you, Michelle.
01:40:48.167 --> 01:40:49.130
And thank you, Ian.
01:40:50.912 --> 01:40:51.414
Thank you, Jim.
01:40:51.555 --> 01:40:52.095
Thank you, Michelle.
01:40:53.037 --> 01:40:54.782
Thank you.
00:00:01.217 --> 00:00:16.925
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.
00:00:17.286 --> 00:00:23.958
My name is Jim Bennett and I am here as always with the free Ian Wilkes.
00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:25.821
And...
00:00:26.402 --> 00:00:40.128
Based on our last conversation, Ian, you know, I'm sitting here panicking about what it's like to live in a, well, we got a little heated in that last conversation, at least I did.
00:00:40.148 --> 00:00:45.378
You were trying very, very hard to be respectful, and I'm very grateful for that.
00:00:46.018 --> 00:00:49.762
But you are also across the border, and I'm kind of jealous.
00:00:50.003 --> 00:00:52.926
I'm hoping that you're going to let me come be a refugee up there.
00:00:53.246 --> 00:00:54.167
Well, you're more than welcome.
00:00:54.226 --> 00:00:56.909
I thought when he said free, you were referring to the Trump election.
00:00:57.911 --> 00:00:58.491
Well, I am.
00:00:58.512 --> 00:00:59.512
I know you are.
00:00:59.954 --> 00:01:03.036
And I was trying to find anything positive that might come from that.
00:01:04.118 --> 00:01:18.106
Since our podcast, and I mentioned this on, I did share this with you on our messenger, there's been a significant spike in Americans at inquiring about residency in Canada.
00:01:18.707 --> 00:01:18.987
Right.
00:01:19.629 --> 00:01:21.572
Like 10,000 hits in one day.
00:01:21.611 --> 00:01:22.832
Yeah.
00:01:23.194 --> 00:01:28.941
And, you know, I want to escape to Scotland, but none of my family seems to want to go with me.
00:01:29.621 --> 00:01:32.486
Yeah, Scotland, I'd love to move to Scotland.
00:01:32.605 --> 00:01:33.326
It's a bit windy.
00:01:34.188 --> 00:01:34.789
It's a bit windy.
00:01:34.849 --> 00:01:35.590
It's a bit chilly.
00:01:35.611 --> 00:01:43.822
I have, I think, sort of a reverse seasonal affective disorder in that I love rain unless I'm tracting in it.
00:01:44.513 --> 00:01:45.715
And then I don't love rain.
00:01:46.677 --> 00:01:49.659
But Scottish weather, I just adore weather like that.
00:01:50.221 --> 00:01:51.322
Yeah, no, me too, me too.
00:01:51.721 --> 00:01:58.609
And so, yeah, so, yeah, Canada is, yeah, if you want to come to Canada, you hang out with us and get a little bit of freedom.
00:01:59.090 --> 00:02:01.674
And, you know, we're happy to have you.
00:02:02.114 --> 00:02:05.078
But, yeah, and very excited about today's podcast.
00:02:05.317 --> 00:02:08.521
Yes, today's podcast has absolutely nothing to do with that.
00:02:09.250 --> 00:02:11.514
So I just wanted to sort of get that out of the way.
00:02:11.534 --> 00:02:19.009
I'm very excited because we've got a really fascinating guest that I've gotten an opportunity to get to know in the last couple of days.
00:02:20.111 --> 00:02:27.347
She is, I don't know what the official title is, but she's somebody who's got a very large following.
00:02:27.407 --> 00:02:30.973
She has 118,000 followers.
00:02:31.138 --> 00:02:34.123
followers on YouTube for her channel.
00:02:34.163 --> 00:02:41.378
And she does a podcast show called 132 Problems, Revisiting Mormon Polygamy.
00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:44.765
And our mutual friend, Steven Peinecker, said we need to talk to her.
00:02:44.846 --> 00:02:50.157
And I think he was right because she, I think, is a very important voice in the conversation.
00:02:50.945 --> 00:02:59.159
She's got a really fascinating perspective, and so I'm very grateful that she's willing to join us here on our podcast.
00:02:59.661 --> 00:03:02.245
Please welcome everybody, Michelle Brady-Stone.
00:03:02.366 --> 00:03:03.587
Michelle, how are you?
00:03:03.627 --> 00:03:05.069
I'm well.
00:03:05.191 --> 00:03:06.432
Thank you for inviting me.
00:03:06.492 --> 00:03:16.349
And I have to say, I felt really left out of that beginning conversation because I was laughing because in 2016, with that election, I was searching, how do I move to Canada?
00:03:16.801 --> 00:03:20.264
And currently, my husband is looking for properties in Scotland.
00:03:20.346 --> 00:03:22.568
So there we go.
00:03:22.668 --> 00:03:22.967
Yeah.
00:03:23.669 --> 00:03:25.450
He's desperate to move to Scotland.
00:03:25.751 --> 00:03:28.454
I get too cold, but I'm willing to go.
00:03:28.493 --> 00:03:34.800
So maybe you and your husband and me will probably have to end up as roommates.
00:03:36.282 --> 00:03:36.722
Okay.
00:03:37.782 --> 00:03:38.924
We'll see what happens.
00:03:40.346 --> 00:03:44.409
But with all the emigration talk out of the way...
00:03:45.153 --> 00:03:50.122
Just wanted to bring you on and give you an opportunity.
00:03:50.162 --> 00:03:59.998
I'm very interested, you know, we've had some conversations now about your perspective and where you are in the church.
00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:06.789
But I think there are probably a number of people who'll be listening to this who don't know anything about you.
00:04:07.931 --> 00:04:09.234
And I'm just...
00:04:09.825 --> 00:04:18.274
want to give you the floor and give you an opportunity to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of background on who you are and where you're coming from.
00:04:18.295 --> 00:04:27.805
Okay, so it's a little bit tricky to introduce myself because I think people want to try to, when we meet someone, we want to try to categorize them and try to understand them.
00:04:27.925 --> 00:04:31.350
And I am the first to admit I don't fit very well into any category.
00:04:31.410 --> 00:04:33.692
So here is a quick introduction.
00:04:33.711 --> 00:04:38.800
I am A mother of 13 children who I've spent my life homeschooling.
00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:40.612
I still have six children at home.
00:04:41.314 --> 00:04:44.576
I have been a lifelong member of the church.
00:04:44.776 --> 00:04:53.785
I am very recently descended from fully Mormon polygamist, not a fundamentalist, but my great-grandfather was called by Joseph F.
00:04:53.805 --> 00:05:06.475
Smith to go to Mexico and take a second wife in 1906, which some of your listeners may know is two years after the second manifesto.
00:05:06.935 --> 00:05:19.175
So my grandfather was a post-manifesto polygamist called by the who told him, I'm not calling you as the president of the church, I'm calling you as the president of the priesthood, is what we've been passed down in our family.
00:05:19.216 --> 00:05:28.213
So I was raised believing that polygamy was the highest, holiest law of the gospel, that we would live in Zion, that we would live in the celestial kingdom, and I just...
00:05:28.898 --> 00:05:36.309
I was taught beautiful stories of my great grandmothers and thought someday I'll understand and it's going to be beautiful.
00:05:36.369 --> 00:05:41.437
And I genuinely thought that it was a shame that we couldn't live the higher laws so that Jesus could come.
00:05:41.456 --> 00:05:43.459
That was my perspective for a very long time.
00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:48.988
And anyway, so I have gone through several different iterations of my faith.
00:05:49.209 --> 00:05:55.225
I So that's my most sort of conservative perspective.
00:05:55.365 --> 00:06:00.774
I also have listened to many voices since pretty much the beginning.
00:06:00.874 --> 00:06:03.257
I'm a voracious student of the scriptures.
00:06:03.278 --> 00:06:07.485
I also have listened to John DeLinn since the very beginning, at least I did for many, many years.
00:06:08.146 --> 00:06:10.028
I read a couple of Denver Snuffers books.
00:06:10.189 --> 00:06:13.012
I've kind of been everywhere.
00:06:13.730 --> 00:06:38.776
I have I will admit I have struggled to stay in the church there have been multiple times when I have felt very strongly that um I needed to leave but I am one who feels like I receive answers from the divine I guess I could call myself a mystic I've I've always been told to stay in the church has is the answer I've received every time I've hit one of those breaking points I have um Anyway, I have gay children.
00:06:38.795 --> 00:06:42.540
I am navigating many different worlds in many different ways.
00:06:42.620 --> 00:06:53.713
So to cut to the chase, about, gosh, it's been over 10 years ago, my husband one day came to me and said, he was reading the Book of Mormon, and he said, I don't think polygamy was ever of God.
00:06:53.954 --> 00:06:55.336
And that floored me.
00:06:55.355 --> 00:07:03.286
And in my TBM mindset, I thought, I need to save my apostate husband before he goes fully apostate.
00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:16.411
And I started studying the scriptures in order to prove to him that polygamy was indeed of God, as I knew because my faithful ancestors and the presidents of the church had always taught.
00:07:16.451 --> 00:07:20.798
So I started studying, and this has got to be more than 10 years ago.
00:07:20.838 --> 00:07:22.000
Anyway, I became...
00:07:23.201 --> 00:07:28.548
I was astonished at how little I knew about it, how naive I was, how ignorant I was.
00:07:28.567 --> 00:07:33.552
And the more I studied, the more it became clear to me that polygamy was never of God.
00:07:33.572 --> 00:07:41.560
It threw me into one iteration of a faith crisis, because how could I be so certain about something and be so wrong?
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:47.367
And how could I think I know better than all of the church leaders that have said this forever and everybody else?
00:07:47.528 --> 00:08:09.476
And so I had to seek out support and voices anyway I started a Facebook group in that space to be able to talk about it and as a result many polygamists actually joined particularly polygamist men and they tagged their friends and I ended up being able to engage with the very best scholars of polygamy the theologians who argue in favor of polygamy.
00:08:09.497 --> 00:08:16.925
So I was able to encounter all of the best arguments in favor of polygamy, which is really valuable for me as a critical thinker.
00:08:16.964 --> 00:08:19.788
I like to encounter the best arguments on the other side.
00:08:19.848 --> 00:08:23.791
So I was able to really solidify my views and go, that's the best you've got.
00:08:24.093 --> 00:08:26.514
Those are the arguments in favor of polygamy.
00:08:27.156 --> 00:08:36.166
So for a long time, I was in that space where as I didn't delve into the history fully, but I knew that Joseph Smith started polygamy and I knew it wasn't of God.
00:08:36.929 --> 00:08:38.272
And I was in that space for a long time.
00:08:38.292 --> 00:08:44.480
I also knew that whatever Joseph Smith was doing was different from what Brigham Young and the later Utah polygamists did.
00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.644
But he was obviously the originator.
00:08:47.744 --> 00:08:52.610
Anyway, I had an unusually difficult 2020 and 2021.
00:08:53.049 --> 00:08:54.672
I know it was difficult for everybody.
00:08:54.711 --> 00:08:57.515
My circumstances were quite extreme during those years.
00:08:57.596 --> 00:09:01.120
I lost a child in 2020 and I lost another child in 2021.
00:09:03.042 --> 00:09:30.528
the tragedy of that was magnified by what was happening in the world and um and so that's that was one of the times that I felt like I needed to leave the church it just it was a very difficult time but um anyway after after that period I just felt very strongly kind of as I was um I had I was recovering and I was you know um um I don't know how to explain it it wasn't It wasn't out of my trauma or anything like that.
00:09:30.567 --> 00:09:34.013
It was just kind of trying to understand my relationship with God.
00:09:34.033 --> 00:09:35.214
I navigated that.
00:09:35.774 --> 00:09:42.783
And after I came through that, I just felt a strong confirmation that I needed to talk to other women about what I had learned about polygamy.
00:09:42.803 --> 00:09:46.668
And that was kind of the instigation for my channel.
00:09:46.708 --> 00:09:49.231
It's called 132 Problems because it's section 132.
00:09:49.831 --> 00:09:53.576
For anyone that isn't aware, that is where Mormons get polygamy.
00:09:53.636 --> 00:09:56.701
That's the only place in our scriptures that is polygamy positive.
00:09:56.721 --> 00:10:02.703
And then I started my podcast knowing that polygamy wasn't of God, but knowing that Joseph Smith had started it.
00:10:03.224 --> 00:10:11.793
A year into my podcast, after intensive study, I came to the conclusion that actually Joseph Smith hadn't started it.
00:10:11.854 --> 00:10:16.958
That was very challenging for me to come to believe.
00:10:16.979 --> 00:10:18.821
It took a lot to convince me of that.
00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:26.470
And it took a lot more to convince me to speak aloud about it because I knew the giant...
00:10:26.913 --> 00:10:29.999
file of crap I would be stepping right into the middle of, right?
00:10:30.139 --> 00:10:32.123
I'm fighting on every single front.
00:10:32.563 --> 00:10:36.429
So anyway, for about the last year and a half, that's the space I...
00:10:36.470 --> 00:10:39.434
Well, for the last two and a half years, I've been doing my podcast.
00:10:39.475 --> 00:10:49.712
For about the last year and a half, I've become a full-time historian delving into the documents of the restoration.
00:10:49.732 --> 00:10:50.615
And it's been...
00:10:50.654 --> 00:10:52.317
Actually, I spend...
00:10:52.802 --> 00:10:57.947
usually between 60, 70 hours a week, researching, preparing, doing what I'm working on.
00:10:58.227 --> 00:11:02.272
And it's become, anyway, it's very fulfilling.
00:11:02.312 --> 00:11:03.354
It's very satisfying.
00:11:03.394 --> 00:11:04.235
It's very important.
00:11:04.274 --> 00:11:06.057
I've developed a very thick skin.
00:11:06.076 --> 00:11:08.679
I'm a lot of people's favorite person to hate.
00:11:09.259 --> 00:11:12.964
I have a lot of people coming after my membership in the church.
00:11:13.705 --> 00:11:17.710
And that's, anyway, that's kind of where I am at this point.
00:11:20.129 --> 00:11:20.591
All right.
00:11:20.671 --> 00:11:22.974
That seems to be a very succinct summation.
00:11:23.014 --> 00:11:26.698
And I know what it's like to be a person that everybody loves to hate.
00:11:27.541 --> 00:11:31.625
So I have solidarity with you in that regard.
00:11:31.645 --> 00:11:35.952
So 60, 70 hours spent a week doing this.
00:11:38.917 --> 00:11:39.878
That's a lot of hours.
00:11:42.381 --> 00:11:45.265
Especially with somebody with six children at home.
00:11:45.306 --> 00:11:48.090
How do you juggle that?
00:11:48.994 --> 00:11:58.506
Well, I should clarify, after the difficult time of 2020 and 2021, I no longer homeschooled my children.
00:11:58.567 --> 00:12:04.615
That was part of that process of just, so my children are in school now, which gives me, frees up a whole lot of time.
00:12:04.635 --> 00:12:13.508
And as a mother of a large family, I've always been pretty productive, pretty good at getting a lot of things done and not much of a sleeper.
00:12:13.548 --> 00:12:14.750
Yeah.
00:12:15.361 --> 00:12:17.284
So my kids know I'm always available.
00:12:17.345 --> 00:12:22.432
I'm always interruptible, but I usually have, I'm usually on my computer, unfortunately.
00:12:22.452 --> 00:12:33.450
So other than when I'm directly interacting with them and doing things with them, I'm able, I don't make any money from what I'm doing, but I do have enough coming in that I've been able to hire house help.
00:12:33.549 --> 00:12:37.034
So I have help cleaning my house, which has freed up a lot of time as well.
00:12:37.676 --> 00:12:38.957
I really appreciate that.
00:12:39.394 --> 00:12:41.356
So where is your husband in this?
00:12:41.456 --> 00:12:44.321
Is your husband equally passionate about this?
00:12:44.441 --> 00:12:48.486
Or does he just think, oh, here's Michelle going off on her little hobby horse?
00:12:48.767 --> 00:12:50.230
Yes, the second.
00:12:50.629 --> 00:12:53.033
He's very sweet.
00:12:53.114 --> 00:12:54.174
He's very supportive.
00:12:54.215 --> 00:12:58.761
He doesn't want me to talk to him about it all the time.
00:13:00.624 --> 00:13:01.566
Very understandably.
00:13:01.686 --> 00:13:03.928
I laugh that he created a monster.
00:13:03.989 --> 00:13:04.629
It's his fault.
00:13:04.690 --> 00:13:06.072
He started all of this, right?
00:13:06.111 --> 00:13:06.852
He was the one that...
00:13:07.426 --> 00:13:10.630
That read the scriptures and came and told me that I was wrong about polygamy.
00:13:10.671 --> 00:13:12.394
So now he's on board.
00:13:12.413 --> 00:13:16.942
We have a very similar perspective of the gospel.
00:13:16.981 --> 00:13:18.924
We are both active in the church.
00:13:19.024 --> 00:13:21.808
We both navigate that in a nuanced way.
00:13:21.828 --> 00:13:28.440
And so it's not been, we don't have an interfaith marriage by any means, which I'm really thankful for.
00:13:28.460 --> 00:13:28.480
I
00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:29.842
mean,
00:13:29.863 --> 00:13:31.865
I support people who do, but.
00:13:32.258 --> 00:13:33.620
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
00:13:33.801 --> 00:13:38.368
Does he agree with you that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy?
00:13:39.309 --> 00:13:41.312
He agrees with me that polygamy was never of God.
00:13:41.332 --> 00:13:49.125
He is not yet fully convinced that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy, but he also doesn't listen to my podcast.
00:13:50.928 --> 00:13:54.234
He does sometimes, but whenever he's like, I'm not convinced, I'm like, well, you're not listening.
00:13:57.158 --> 00:13:59.022
We talked a little bit.
00:13:59.265 --> 00:14:05.673
I mean, I've got this weird hobby horse that has nothing to do with the church, but I'm what they call an Oxfordian.
00:14:05.894 --> 00:14:11.721
I believe that William Shakespeare was the pen name of Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford.
00:14:11.801 --> 00:14:13.302
I'm even writing a book about it.
00:14:13.442 --> 00:14:18.187
And my wife is like, well, you know, good for you.
00:14:18.207 --> 00:14:19.309
I couldn't care less.
00:14:20.730 --> 00:14:22.974
And pays absolutely no attention to it.
00:14:23.114 --> 00:14:26.076
It's like, well, whatever makes you happy and whatever...
00:14:26.721 --> 00:14:28.565
you'd like to do, then go ahead and do it.
00:14:28.644 --> 00:14:41.725
So it's just really interesting to see how those kinds of, when you find something that really animates you and is something that you're very passionate about, it's sometimes difficult to find other people who are able to share that.
00:14:41.765 --> 00:14:44.289
But you seem to have found quite a following.
00:14:44.470 --> 00:14:54.145
Of those 118,000 followers that I can see on YouTube, how many do you actively sort of engage with on a regular basis?
00:14:54.977 --> 00:14:55.678
Oh, it depends.
00:14:55.698 --> 00:15:04.113
I think I have an interesting situation because I haven't had the time or energy to do them recently, but I did a lot of shorts as well.
00:15:04.173 --> 00:15:08.099
And those got way more views than my, you know, sometimes my videos are two and a half hours.
00:15:08.379 --> 00:15:10.663
They're often an hour and a half to two hours.
00:15:10.722 --> 00:15:17.129
So, so not that, Not everybody that watches the short, say, will watch the full videos.
00:15:17.870 --> 00:15:28.559
But I do have definitely a very large support system and a very large community of people who are very passionately engaged in these topics.
00:15:28.940 --> 00:15:30.260
I shouldn't even say it's my community.
00:15:30.301 --> 00:15:33.403
It's not like I'm the first person that's been in this space.
00:15:33.923 --> 00:15:34.745
I thought I was.
00:15:34.804 --> 00:15:37.346
When I started my podcast, I thought it was insane.
00:15:37.466 --> 00:15:42.051
I thought it was the dumbest thing ever to start a podcast on polygamy in 2022.
00:15:42.672 --> 00:15:43.393
You know, I couldn't...
00:15:43.633 --> 00:15:45.395
Like, it seemed totally irrelevant.
00:15:45.876 --> 00:15:52.226
So it's actually been amazing to see how extremely relevant this topic is to so many people.
00:15:52.267 --> 00:15:53.729
It really is kind of a...
00:15:53.749 --> 00:15:55.051
I don't know.
00:15:55.110 --> 00:15:55.731
It's just...
00:15:55.751 --> 00:16:00.139
It is as important now as it ever has been.
00:16:00.278 --> 00:16:01.500
And it's as interesting...
00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:06.708
It's more interesting now than it ever has been because we have so much more access to sources.
00:16:07.350 --> 00:16:08.932
Like, everybody can dig it.
00:16:08.971 --> 00:16:09.692
You know, when I do...
00:16:10.370 --> 00:16:19.780
my episodes, I'm able to show people the document I'm talking about, and I'm able to link to it so people can go do their own research, which I think is tremendously valuable.
00:16:19.821 --> 00:16:25.567
We're no longer dependent on gatekeepers to, they have the sources, they tell us what they say.
00:16:25.587 --> 00:16:29.113
I really like that we can go do our own research in this day and age.
00:16:29.133 --> 00:16:30.514
It's a huge blessing to us.
00:16:31.456 --> 00:16:37.062
Yeah, you've talked about how the Joseph Smith Papers project is a real game changer, and I think that's absolutely true.
00:16:37.962 --> 00:16:49.058
So, yeah, we have access to sources as lay people and we don't have to rely on historians necessarily to filter out what information they feel is, is useful or is not.
00:16:49.980 --> 00:17:09.701
Uh, so, uh, and I think what you're doing, it's, it's, I mean, I, I am not in, in this space and as I, I've told you before, um, my faith is not contingent in any way on whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
00:17:10.273 --> 00:17:26.255
I still firmly believe that he was, but I'm not really, I mean, this isn't something where I've investigated the sources as meticulously as you have, or something that I feel really compelled to explore.
00:17:26.295 --> 00:17:31.821
But it does seem to be a subject that is gaining traction.
00:17:32.993 --> 00:17:37.780
and surprising a lot of people, including traditional historians.
00:17:37.902 --> 00:17:51.321
I think I've seen Richard Bushman comment on how surprised he is that all of a sudden we're revisiting polygamy and whether or not Joseph Smith was a polygamist so long after the fact.
00:17:51.522 --> 00:17:58.413
And more and more people are, I think, coming along to your point of view on that.
00:17:58.945 --> 00:18:00.715
Why do you think that is?
00:18:00.756 --> 00:18:05.805
Do you think it's just that there's more access now or is there something else driving this?
00:18:06.594 --> 00:18:08.375
Well, no, I very much agree with you.
00:18:08.435 --> 00:18:17.445
I think, and I won't take the time to trace the whole history of what has happened in the polygamy discussion, but you know, it has been contested from the very beginning, right?
00:18:17.507 --> 00:18:28.779
This was contested during Joseph Smith's lifetime, the accusations that he was a polygamist, his denials, and that has continued since with this debate.
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:38.933
And in the In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, people, the debate continued to some extent, although it's been, I guess I am tracing it a bit.
00:18:38.993 --> 00:18:49.624
It's been an interesting topic because the church, was a polygamist and the church was the most determined to say that Joseph Smith was a polygamist during the polygamist era of the church.
00:18:50.064 --> 00:18:58.111
Then we got into the early 1900s and the mid-1900s and it continued on that Joseph was not a polygamist and those were anti-Mormon lies, right?
00:18:58.652 --> 00:19:00.492
And that continued on for quite a while.
00:19:00.553 --> 00:19:07.720
Then we got that period of openness, Camelot, in Mormon history when we had Leonard Arrington and D.
00:19:07.740 --> 00:19:09.141
Michael Quinn was being given access.
00:19:09.161 --> 00:19:12.243
So new sources were found and they were...
00:19:12.784 --> 00:19:26.398
the Mormon polygamist sources in the, like for my perspective, the Mormon polygamist in their effort to prove that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist started to create a lot of evidence in order to prove that.
00:19:26.439 --> 00:19:31.523
And that's what was found again, rediscovered in the 70s, 80s, 90s.
00:19:32.545 --> 00:19:38.171
And then at the same time, the RLDS church was going through a change where they were going much more progressive.
00:19:38.230 --> 00:19:42.732
Their top leaders had been trained in progressive Methodist schools.
00:19:42.772 --> 00:19:49.185
They wanted to become much more ecumenical and much less Mormon, so they were motivated to step away from Joseph Smith.
00:19:49.205 --> 00:19:50.648
I don't want to speak on behalf of them.
00:19:50.709 --> 00:20:11.656
This is my understanding, and maybe a member of the community of Christ would have a slightly different take on it, but they did go extremely liberal extremely quickly, and as a result, the church really broke, and some of Most of the largest congregations and the highest tithe paying congregations split off from the church and they continue to be RLDS.
00:20:11.737 --> 00:20:14.585
They're called the Restoration Branches and the Community of Christ.
00:20:15.247 --> 00:20:17.252
The biggest issue wasn't even Joseph's polygamy.
00:20:17.272 --> 00:20:18.957
It was actually the ordination of women.
00:20:19.713 --> 00:20:21.516
And that happened in the 80s, right?
00:20:21.576 --> 00:20:32.305
So the community of Christ says that Joseph was never a polygamist, but many of their congregations also don't really look to Joseph Smith as a prophet either, and they don't really rely on the Book of Mormon in the same way.
00:20:32.345 --> 00:20:41.553
They are, as I said, much less Mormon and much more ecumenical, whereas the restoration branches, the RLDS Church, still adamantly claim that Joseph was a polygamist.
00:20:41.932 --> 00:20:47.678
That's where Richard and Pamela Price came from, who wrote the series Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy.
00:20:47.718 --> 00:20:55.932
And so it's been an interesting coming together now because in the 90s and the early 2000s, everyone thought that the case was closed, right?
00:20:55.951 --> 00:20:57.615
The opposition dropped their case.
00:20:57.694 --> 00:21:01.803
The tug of war between the RLDS and the Mormon church, the RLDS dropped.
00:21:02.344 --> 00:21:06.111
And the LDS then said, okay, it's settled that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
00:21:06.151 --> 00:21:09.674
But since that time, very little work has been done.
00:21:09.694 --> 00:21:25.128
And since that time, we've had the Trice's books, which, you know, aren't perfect, and they are very focused on their religion, but they have done incredible work to bring out sources that we as Mormons were not aware of.
00:21:25.209 --> 00:21:28.090
We've just always ignored the RLDS sources, right?
00:21:28.111 --> 00:21:37.098
And then we also had Hugo Parejo's work done that showed us that there are actually no descendants, no polygamous descendants of Joseph Smith.
00:21:37.138 --> 00:21:43.428
He and Emma had not nine biological children, 11 children total, but we have shown through DNA that there are no other children.
00:21:43.468 --> 00:21:51.895
We've had the Joseph Smith papers open up online where we are seeing things that we have never seen before, that were never part of this discussion.
00:21:52.115 --> 00:21:57.582
I say often, it's very easy to believe someone's guilty when you've only heard the prosecution, right?
00:21:57.662 --> 00:22:02.547
We are getting in and digging out sources and people are learning things that they never knew before.
00:22:02.646 --> 00:22:11.416
So this combination of factors has given us all a whole new landscape that we hadn't seen.
00:22:11.457 --> 00:22:16.672
And the case Most people who just have read the histories, they've read Richard Bushman, they've read D.
00:22:16.692 --> 00:22:20.659
Michael Quinn, they've just assumed they're the experts and they know that this is settled and this is ridiculous.
00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:32.578
And I understand that perspective, but the people that are really digging into it, including the historians, some of whom I'm working closely with, the more they dig into it, they realize this is not what I thought.
00:22:32.778 --> 00:22:34.461
I thought we had such a strong case.
00:22:34.642 --> 00:22:36.925
I thought this was settled and they are realizing otherwise.
00:22:37.122 --> 00:22:39.444
Holy cow, this is not settled at all.
00:22:39.484 --> 00:22:44.112
There is far less evidence for Joseph's polygamy than I assumed that there was.
00:22:44.492 --> 00:22:46.695
And there is far more evidence against it.
00:22:47.135 --> 00:22:50.300
Most of them aren't ready to change their perspective on it.
00:22:50.821 --> 00:22:54.846
But more and more are realizing that there is absolutely a discussion to be had.
00:22:54.886 --> 00:22:58.932
And that's what I'm trying to do is say we need to have this discussion because...
00:22:59.682 --> 00:23:03.468
The case for Joseph's polygamy is not nearly as strong as it should be.
00:23:03.647 --> 00:23:08.454
Everybody needs to engage so that all sides can separate the wheat from the chaff.
00:23:08.494 --> 00:23:13.743
We can learn what are the good sources, what are the good arguments, and what are the weak sources and the weak arguments.
00:23:14.585 --> 00:23:26.864
Well, I want to bring Ian in on this because I'm very interested, Ian, you know, you are no longer in the church, and I don't know how much this issue animates you or has anything to do with it, but...
00:23:28.705 --> 00:23:32.356
As Michelle's talking about all of this, what does this do to you?
00:23:32.396 --> 00:23:33.339
Yeah.
00:23:34.845 --> 00:23:37.593
Michelle, I bring a very different perspective, I think, to this conversation.
00:23:37.613 --> 00:23:40.382
I joined the Church of Sixteen in England.
00:23:41.057 --> 00:23:57.961
And, you know, went on a mission, came on, got a seal in the temple, served as a bishop, served on a state presidency, you know, did a lot of research, spent some time actually over the years studying polygamy and not to the amount of 60 or 70 hours, I must add.
00:23:59.502 --> 00:24:00.625
That's like a full-time job.
00:24:00.704 --> 00:24:06.593
But I was always fascinated in polygamy because it was from a...
00:24:07.329 --> 00:24:38.707
non-member Church of England, no history or relationship with the church whatsoever, and observing the missionaries trapped in the neighborhoods where I was growing up and seeing them as strange, cultish figures, and hearing stories about polygamy, that they were trying to persuade English girls to go to Salt Lake through these tunnels, And at the end, these women or girls would have to...
00:24:39.367 --> 00:24:41.009
Where did the Tuttle thing come from?
00:24:41.190 --> 00:24:46.576
Yeah, this is all across the UK and probably all around the world.
00:24:46.616 --> 00:24:55.669
But there are strange mysteries that these Mormon mysteries would take people, not kidnap them necessarily, but would brainwash them.
00:24:56.009 --> 00:24:59.093
I think actually this is what a lot of the Brits think...
00:25:00.258 --> 00:25:17.903
a lot of people still think this and feel this, that there's some brainwashing involved and that back in the 80s when I joined the church, that there was an effort by the church to bring girls, women over to encourage them and persuade them to enter into polygamous marriages.
00:25:18.265 --> 00:25:23.492
So the polygamy was the thing that everyone knew about the Mormon church.
00:25:23.512 --> 00:25:29.480
So soon you mentioned Mormon church in the UK, England, Scotland, whatever, and you saw this on your mission, Jim, a lot, I'm sure.
00:25:29.953 --> 00:25:31.315
Polygamy was the number one thing.
00:25:31.855 --> 00:25:42.027
And the church did studies in the UK and across Europe, and probably across the world, and found that polygamy was one of the biggest barriers, limiters, constraints, why people didn't want to join the church.
00:25:43.228 --> 00:25:52.438
Because polygamy is seen as a very strange, odd practice, notwithstanding it has some of its origins in the Bible, of course.
00:25:52.499 --> 00:25:55.922
And I think you mentioned that on your blog I've been reading earlier.
00:25:56.542 --> 00:25:59.066
So, you know, this is an outside...
00:25:59.682 --> 00:26:59.106
church world perspective polygamy I think it's been a huge topic and issue and still attracts significant interest from all kinds of people in and outside of the church it's very strange I know when Elder Oaks he set me apart on the state presidency and a question I wanted to ask him and I didn't get the chance but I would have asked him this is you know Elder Oaks is sealed to two women so I know we you know the church for political reasons back historically again I'm not an expert here came under pressure to start practicing polygamy it then issued the manifesto the church still practiced it for a period of time and that's my understanding from the essays but at some point it became an official position that it doesn't no longer practice polygamy.
00:26:59.907 --> 00:27:06.013
Notwithstanding, when you go to the temple, even now, you can actually be sealed to two or more women.
00:27:07.015 --> 00:27:08.817
You can't do it in the reverse.
00:27:09.637 --> 00:27:36.503
And so a question I wanted to ask Elder Oaks is, you know, and this is my understanding from speaking with general authorities, that the church still privately, personally, believes in the principle and practice of polygamy, albeit it can't practice it on on the earth today for legal reasons, but in the eternities, that's part of the requirement to achieve eternal life with God.
00:27:36.544 --> 00:27:38.826
That's a principle that we have to follow.
00:27:39.127 --> 00:27:45.496
Personally, I always, I thought it was, I didn't take it seriously.
00:27:45.516 --> 00:27:49.260
The people I grew up with who were in the church, when I joined the church, didn't take it seriously.
00:27:49.582 --> 00:27:58.292
We always said, you know, when you die, and if that polygamy happens, principle and practice is required.
00:27:58.333 --> 00:28:00.194
Our minds will be differently.
00:28:00.316 --> 00:28:01.237
We'll think differently.
00:28:01.297 --> 00:28:03.240
We'll feel different.
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:09.708
This was the default response to the questions of polygamy in seminary or institute or any time it came up.
00:28:10.189 --> 00:28:12.392
Look, God's mind is not our mind.
00:28:13.012 --> 00:28:14.755
His laws are higher than ours.
00:28:15.876 --> 00:28:17.759
When we die, we'll think like him.
00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.820
We'll feel like him.
00:28:18.961 --> 00:28:19.882
It won't be an issue.
00:28:19.902 --> 00:28:22.905
I was never interested in polygamy.
00:28:23.968 --> 00:28:54.942
The idea of having um loads of wives just didn't appeal to me and i won't get into into why it just sounds very expensive to me as well um and and i just you know i i'm trying to you know coordinate a relationship with with one albeit successfully and i'm quite happy to be you know married in a you know a regular uh marriage non-polygamy i just if i had the choice of um you know, in the afterlife of not having polygamy, I wouldn't be interested in polygamy.
00:28:55.241 --> 00:29:03.259
But I was always fascinated in the principle of the temple where you can be sealed to more than one woman and more than one wife.
00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:05.282
And they still practice that today.
00:29:05.884 --> 00:29:13.710
I guess to James' question, some questions that come to my mind, Michelle, is What's driving you to have these conversations?
00:29:14.451 --> 00:29:16.875
You spend all this time, clearly very passionate.
00:29:16.894 --> 00:29:19.117
You've delved into the details.
00:29:19.178 --> 00:29:22.702
You talk about deep dives on your website.
00:29:23.824 --> 00:29:24.846
What's behind it?
00:29:25.006 --> 00:29:28.590
Are you trying to, is it a doctrinal thing?
00:29:28.631 --> 00:29:31.454
Is it something that can help you reconcile your faith?
00:29:31.996 --> 00:29:36.060
Do you think the church has completely made a mistake in coming out and accepting?
00:29:36.101 --> 00:29:36.982
I think they've accepted.
00:29:37.442 --> 00:29:43.469
I think the official church position is that the church has accepted that Joseph Smith did practice polygamy.
00:29:44.069 --> 00:29:49.875
I've read somewhere on the essays that he had 33 wives, or 32 wives.
00:29:50.655 --> 00:29:57.843
So my questions are, if you can, is what's driving you in your research?
00:29:58.483 --> 00:29:59.464
What are you trying to achieve?
00:29:59.484 --> 00:30:00.605
What are your objectives?
00:30:01.287 --> 00:30:06.251
How do you reconcile your findings and your research with the church's official position?
00:30:07.011 --> 00:30:17.246
And what are your thoughts about worthy priesthood men being able to be sealed in today, in 2024, be sealed to more than one woman?
00:30:17.286 --> 00:30:20.490
So there's three questions that come to my mind.
00:30:20.530 --> 00:30:21.732
I'd love to get your responses.
00:30:22.574 --> 00:30:25.798
Those are great questions, and that's a lot, so I'm going to do my best.
00:30:25.838 --> 00:30:30.246
Remind me if I don't cover all of them adequately, because I have so much to say, so much in my mind.
00:30:30.826 --> 00:30:32.568
First of all, the churches...
00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:36.374
Polygamy is just an awful mess for the church.
00:30:36.773 --> 00:30:38.737
Terrible, terrible mess, right?
00:30:39.416 --> 00:30:43.501
Just as you said, it's a black eye and has been for a very long time for the church.
00:30:43.622 --> 00:30:46.465
And it's left the church with this mess to try to clean up.
00:30:46.506 --> 00:30:48.548
And there's no good way to clean it up right now.
00:30:48.689 --> 00:30:52.113
And I think in the way that the church is approaching it, right?
00:30:52.553 --> 00:30:55.817
And so we are left with this statement.
00:30:55.856 --> 00:31:01.865
The statement of the church right now is monogamy is the rule, but polygamy is the exception, right?
00:31:02.005 --> 00:31:02.486
And that is...
00:31:03.009 --> 00:31:09.666
I just, I, for so many reasons, think that that's a terrible statement to stance to take.
00:31:09.727 --> 00:31:15.520
First of all, it like the best thing the church has going for it in regard to polygamy is the ignorance of the people.
00:31:16.321 --> 00:31:17.763
We just don't know the history.
00:31:17.804 --> 00:31:18.806
We don't know the scriptures.
00:31:18.885 --> 00:31:21.028
So we are able to believe things like that.
00:31:21.108 --> 00:31:23.993
That statement cannot be supported scripturally at all.
00:31:24.034 --> 00:31:32.246
It's based on a very bad, like resting of one verse of Jacob chapter two, which takes it completely out of context, right?
00:31:32.306 --> 00:31:34.068
And we could get into that.
00:31:34.529 --> 00:31:40.499
And also it is extremely damaging to women when we do start digging in and do start understanding this.
00:31:40.939 --> 00:31:44.248
And so, yes, the idea that men can be sealed to two women.
00:31:44.307 --> 00:31:49.135
Like the church is, I mean, you know, sort of has one foot in polygamy and one foot out of polygamy, right?
00:31:49.297 --> 00:31:54.865
And like Elder Cook has said, the highest councils of the church believe it has served its purpose.
00:31:54.925 --> 00:31:56.188
It's not going to come back again.
00:31:56.228 --> 00:32:12.537
But then we get statements with President Nelson is the first one for a long time who has either paraphrased or referred to or actually quoted verses of section 132 that Previous prophets for many decades have not approached with a 10-foot pole.
00:32:12.616 --> 00:32:18.785
So our current leadership seems to be a little bit more in favor of eternal polygamy than our past leaders have been.
00:32:18.825 --> 00:32:20.627
And I guess we have yet to see where it goes.
00:32:20.688 --> 00:32:25.614
I think it just depends on the perspective of whoever the current leader is, is what we've seen.
00:32:25.693 --> 00:32:29.880
So I do think that the church has a big problem with polygamy.
00:32:29.980 --> 00:32:38.413
And I think that in general, the best way through these things is with Transparency and truthfulness and letting go of false traditions.
00:32:38.875 --> 00:32:50.681
I don't want to be offensive in any way, but I think one of the horrible things that has happened in the church is our temple ban, our history of racism, right?
00:32:51.142 --> 00:32:54.348
And if the church were still saying things like, well...
00:32:55.329 --> 00:32:59.315
Full inclusion of all races is the rule, but racism is the exception.
00:32:59.355 --> 00:33:03.179
And if God ever wants us to exclude a certain race from the temple, he'll tell us to do that.
00:33:03.219 --> 00:33:06.884
And that's in God's, and we just can't worry about what that would mean for people, right?
00:33:07.444 --> 00:33:11.950
And saying, well, the reason that existed is because people were fence sitters in heaven.
00:33:11.970 --> 00:33:12.830
They were less valued.
00:33:13.090 --> 00:33:18.417
Like we have these really, really bad ideas of man.
00:33:18.978 --> 00:33:23.124
And then we blame them on God, and then we try to justify them.
00:33:23.163 --> 00:33:26.708
And I think that that is a very destructive approach to take.
00:33:26.827 --> 00:33:37.462
And as a woman, it is offensive to me that we are willing to say the things that Brigham Young said about certain races were deplorable.
00:33:37.502 --> 00:33:39.945
We mourn over those statements.
00:33:40.547 --> 00:33:42.829
We condemn them and disavow them.
00:33:43.266 --> 00:33:45.449
And we wish they hadn't happened and they were wrong.
00:33:45.808 --> 00:33:50.815
We haven't said it in those clear of terms, but yes, Carl Reeves' book has been published by Deseret Book.
00:33:50.875 --> 00:33:52.297
Let's talk about race and priesthood, right?
00:33:52.356 --> 00:33:54.420
I know that Jim brought that up yesterday.
00:33:54.460 --> 00:33:55.340
We're willing to say that.
00:33:55.701 --> 00:34:03.730
And yet when it comes to women, the things that Brigham Young said about women put the things that he said about other races to shame.
00:34:03.770 --> 00:34:14.902
We have a huge catalog of extremely destructive, deplorable things said about women Or we're not willing to make those same statements.
00:34:15.704 --> 00:34:19.170
And while we have, in many ways, I don't think we're fully there yet.
00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:25.443
I've had conversations with members of the Church of African Descent, and there still is a difficulty.
00:34:25.784 --> 00:34:31.375
Like, I mourn over the fact that here the church was in Utah during the Civil War in America.
00:34:31.414 --> 00:34:33.117
The church could have been this big.
00:34:33.634 --> 00:34:37.820
the city on a hill, this candle on a hill of inclusion.
00:34:38.039 --> 00:34:47.554
And I think it's a tragedy that we don't have the descendants of James, children, and all of these amazing saints that we had, right?
00:34:47.614 --> 00:34:48.534
I think it's a tragedy.
00:34:48.554 --> 00:34:52.641
I am glad that we no longer hold to those statements.
00:34:53.302 --> 00:35:04.268
I think it is deplorable that the church has not in any similar way, integrated with women and overcome the bad statements and the bans on women.
00:35:04.347 --> 00:35:10.896
We are so ignorant of our history and we haven't dealt with it in ways that we need to.
00:35:11.456 --> 00:35:14.400
And so we continue on with...
00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:14.460
We
00:35:19.527 --> 00:35:21.369
have some connection issues, Jim, I think.
00:35:21.630 --> 00:35:23.273
Yeah, this happened yesterday.
00:35:23.353 --> 00:35:24.094
Yeah.
00:35:24.545 --> 00:35:25.487
Oh, oh, go ahead.
00:35:25.728 --> 00:35:26.007
Sorry.
00:35:26.268 --> 00:35:27.150
I guess we're losing each other.
00:35:27.190 --> 00:35:28.030
We lost you again.
00:35:29.472 --> 00:35:29.614
Oh.
00:35:30.815 --> 00:35:45.838
No, you were saying it does injustice towards women if we don't understand and acknowledge, you know, the historical statements with women, like Brigham Young, and you got a little bit disconnected.
00:35:45.878 --> 00:35:52.708
But you were talking about, I think you're trying to answer the question, what's driving you, you know, to, I think you're trying to, Bring that justice to women.
00:35:52.768 --> 00:35:57.972
And you're saying that we're ignorant of some of the historical facts.
00:35:58.132 --> 00:35:59.077
We just don't know enough.
00:35:59.960 --> 00:36:00.885
And we need to talk about this.
00:36:02.402 --> 00:36:03.143
Yes, yes.
00:36:03.282 --> 00:36:10.489
I do think that it keeps women in a position of uncertainty in their relationship with God, right?
00:36:10.608 --> 00:36:11.510
How does God view me?
00:36:11.650 --> 00:36:23.360
If I read Jacob chapters 2 and 3, then I as a woman see that God cares about my feelings, my experience, what my heart yearns for.
00:36:23.380 --> 00:36:39.297
If I read section 132, I see that God views me as property, as virgins to be given willy-nilly to men with no regard to my views and with threats that I'll be destroyed if I don't just comply with whatever my husband wants to do.
00:36:39.358 --> 00:37:05.186
When I look at how the church treats Emma Smith, still based on these terrible statements made by early church leaders, for me, I explained this to Jim a automatically because of experiences that I'd had and when I was losing children in those incredibly tragic years.
00:37:05.206 --> 00:37:16.259
This might sound strange to people, but truly like somehow, this was before I had started my historical research, but Emma Smith got me through that.
00:37:16.539 --> 00:37:22.786
Like repeatedly, I would just have this overwhelming feeling of Emma made it, I can too.
00:37:23.650 --> 00:37:34.893
You know, I just developed a real closeness and appreciation and sort of awe for the sacrifices and the toughness and the faith of Emma Smith.
00:37:35.489 --> 00:37:37.231
And she really became important to me.
00:37:37.291 --> 00:37:49.985
So as I started to dive into the research, it was actually studying Emma Smith, studying her life, studying all of the things that were said about her during her life compared to the polygamous narrative of her.
00:37:50.025 --> 00:37:54.871
That was the thing that actually convinced me this is not true.
00:37:54.891 --> 00:37:57.893
These are not true statements.
00:37:58.074 --> 00:37:59.096
These are lies.
00:37:59.735 --> 00:38:04.735
And if they're lies about Emma, There are also lies about Joseph, right?
00:38:04.856 --> 00:38:07.380
And I started to study it from that perspective.
00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:13.010
So I automatically center Emma Smith in my perspective on this topic when I look at polygamy.
00:38:13.050 --> 00:38:21.686
And we have stories that say God sent an angel with a drawn sword that threatened to kill Joseph Smith if he didn't betray his wife.
00:38:22.807 --> 00:38:23.268
I'm sorry.
00:38:23.289 --> 00:38:25.974
I mean, it makes me want to swear like a bull crap.
00:38:26.242 --> 00:38:53.184
no that is not who god is right and so jim and i discussed the ces letter yesterday right so that's why the ces letter is effective because okay i can believe that a man claiming to be a prophet might tell his wife that but i will not believe that god did that and in the lds church our stance is still that god did that god sends angels with swords threatening prophets that they will be beheaded if they don't betray their wives What is that?
00:38:53.543 --> 00:38:55.306
How are we supposed to believe that, right?
00:38:55.407 --> 00:39:10.409
And so for me, as a person of faith, when I look at the Book of Mormon and I read that in 3 Nephi chapter 26, it tells us that we will receive this portion first and it is to our condemnation if we don't receive more.
00:39:10.510 --> 00:39:13.735
If we believe what we've been given, then we will receive more.
00:39:13.755 --> 00:39:15.518
Or every doctrine comes...
00:39:16.226 --> 00:39:24.333
When I read Doctrine and Covenants 84, that tells us that we are under condemnation for taking lightly the things that we have received, namely the Book of Mormon.
00:39:24.893 --> 00:39:38.664
And when I recognize that the Book of Mormon, bar none, is the most anti-polygamy book of scripture that we have in the entire canon, it has a lot to say about polygamy, and it leaves no question.
00:39:38.706 --> 00:39:42.528
We go from opening chapters, which have Lehi.
00:39:42.588 --> 00:39:51.864
If we get into the scriptures, I can show you that polygamy is that one of the main reasons he left Jerusalem and one of the main reasons that Jerusalem was threatened with destruction.
00:39:51.905 --> 00:39:52.505
That is in there.
00:39:52.525 --> 00:39:54.650
He was told to raise up seed in the covenant.
00:39:55.193 --> 00:40:02.369
The Lord was supposed to raise up seed and God said, I will, I cannot raise up a seed with people who don't honor my covenant of marriage.
00:40:02.750 --> 00:40:12.030
Then we go to, um, In Noah, it says he did not do that which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines, right?
00:40:12.431 --> 00:40:17.059
We go to Replichish, who did not do that which was right in the sight of God, for he had many wives and concubines.
00:40:17.541 --> 00:40:24.012
But out of the blue, we have a scripture that starts out talking about the doctrine of having many wives and concubines.
00:40:24.393 --> 00:40:29.101
That is what verse 1 of section 132 says, and that's what it calls it.
00:40:29.505 --> 00:40:38.416
right how do we reconcile these and so then when people get in and learn things i'm just going to go on a little bit of a side track but We don't know any of our history.
00:40:38.476 --> 00:40:48.985
We don't know that in the original Doctrine and Covenants that was published in 1835 and again in 1844, we had a statement on marriage that was put in by the leaders of the church.
00:40:49.045 --> 00:40:57.592
Joseph Smith was the head of the committee that was creating, you know, what's the word, editing, I guess, putting together the Doctrine and Covenants.
00:40:58.092 --> 00:41:00.175
That section was universally voted on.
00:41:00.394 --> 00:41:01.496
It had common consent.
00:41:01.695 --> 00:41:03.717
Every organization of the church voted on it.
00:41:03.818 --> 00:41:09.663
It was called the Statement on Marriage, and it absolutely Absolutely condemns, denies, and decries polygamy.
00:41:10.063 --> 00:41:19.030
It says that in this church, we say that one man shall have one wife and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death when either is at liberty to marry again.
00:41:19.471 --> 00:41:27.277
That was section 101 in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, included as 109 in the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants.
00:41:27.338 --> 00:41:28.798
Joseph Smith was killed in 1844.
00:41:29.380 --> 00:41:32.943
So throughout his lifetime, that is what he included in the scriptures.
00:41:36.449 --> 00:41:48.355
five years after the saints had come to Utah, eight years after Joseph Smith's death, that for the very first time, Brigham Young pulled Section 132 out of his desk and said, I've had this here.
00:41:48.375 --> 00:41:49.617
Nobody's known about it.
00:41:49.637 --> 00:41:51.521
Nobody knew it existed, but I've had it.
00:41:51.969 --> 00:42:01.445
We also have so many sources showing us how Brigham Young and his team of historians were altering documents, getting rid of documents, changing the history.
00:42:01.485 --> 00:42:05.371
That is very easily provable.
00:42:05.431 --> 00:42:07.054
I could show you that that was happening.
00:42:07.594 --> 00:42:17.268
And then it wasn't until 1876, the year before Brigham Young died, that Section 132 was first added to the Doctrine and Covenants and Section 101 was removed.
00:42:18.114 --> 00:42:18.393
Right.
00:42:18.534 --> 00:42:20.197
And that most people don't know that.
00:42:20.777 --> 00:42:23.581
And so so we think of this as like scripture.
00:42:23.641 --> 00:42:28.146
You can't talk about scripture, say that this canonized scripture shouldn't be this way.
00:42:28.206 --> 00:42:28.387
Right.
00:42:28.527 --> 00:42:38.822
Even if even if people want to believe that section 132 did come from Joseph Smith, which I I think is absolutely ridiculous as I have delved into that.
00:42:39.713 --> 00:42:41.362
He intentionally never published it.
00:42:41.442 --> 00:42:45.661
He didn't include it in the 1844 Doctrine and Covenants, right?
00:42:45.702 --> 00:42:48.755
We can't claim that he wanted it published and canonized.
00:42:49.217 --> 00:43:12.663
So even on that alone, we could say, should we really have canonized scriptures that claim that the doctrine of having many wives and concubines is of God, that claims that women are property to be given willy-nilly as rewards for men, and that threatens women with destruction if they won't get on board with their men's infidelity, right?
00:43:12.722 --> 00:43:14.744
Do we really want that canonized in our scripture?
00:43:14.784 --> 00:43:19.668
So I guess what drives me is this genuine belief in the Book of Mormon.
00:43:19.829 --> 00:43:21.771
I believe what it says.
00:43:21.791 --> 00:43:23.192
I think it's important for us.
00:43:23.291 --> 00:43:31.518
I think it is profound that the Book of Mormon has so much to say about polygamy when we claim that it's written for our day, and it calls it an abomination.
00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:39.226
And so I feel like we're walking around carrying our little pet abomination in our own back pocket while decrying what we see as abomination in the rest of the world.
00:43:39.786 --> 00:43:43.570
And I see so many areas where we desperately need further light and knowledge.
00:43:43.650 --> 00:43:46.554
We are in so much need of more truth to be revealed.
00:43:47.295 --> 00:43:52.061
And I don't know how we can get it when we won't accept the truth that we've been given.
00:43:52.081 --> 00:43:57.528
Your passion comes across very strongly.
00:43:57.869 --> 00:44:00.373
You are a very fierce advocate for your position.
00:44:00.492 --> 00:44:04.938
And I don't think it's possible not to respect that.
00:44:04.978 --> 00:44:07.222
And I'm grateful for that.
00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:09.891
I went and saw a movie last night.
00:44:10.393 --> 00:44:13.036
Ian and I have talked about doing a podcast on this movie.
00:44:13.096 --> 00:44:14.978
It's the new one out with Hugh Grant.
00:44:15.077 --> 00:44:18.541
It's the movie Heretic.
00:44:19.824 --> 00:44:20.505
I haven't seen it.
00:44:21.505 --> 00:44:26.512
Well, I believe, and Ian, you're seeing it today, aren't you?
00:44:26.632 --> 00:44:27.572
I'm seeing it tonight, yes.
00:44:27.693 --> 00:44:28.753
You haven't seen it yet?
00:44:29.215 --> 00:44:29.775
I'll see it tonight.
00:44:30.476 --> 00:44:33.860
I think in some ways it is the...
00:44:35.617 --> 00:45:16.262
finest depiction of latter-day saints on film that i have ever seen because these are it's not that these people are perfect but they they are very much recognizable as latter-day saints the two sister missionaries and i don't like horror movies that much and it got really kind of gory near the end and so there's kind of issues there but they had this big lengthy discussion about polygamy and uh the sister missionaries were essentially making the arguments that you're decrying, this idea that it was necessary, that monogamy is the rule, but polygamy is the exception.
00:45:16.282 --> 00:45:35.931
I don't think they said that specifically, but they did say that polygamy was necessary in order to raise up seed and to have lots of children, and I'm going to agree with you, I think, here, that the data shows that that is not the case, that polygamy did not actually increase the population.
00:45:36.012 --> 00:45:48.188
So people sort of look at that Jacob chapter two escape clause as a reason to say, well, here's when polygamy is okay, because when we need to raise up seed, uh, the, the historical data does not bear that out.
00:45:48.869 --> 00:46:07.322
But, um, Hugh Grant, uh, the, the, the bad guy, um, says, look, initially he's very pleasant with the sister missionaries and is talking to them about how wonderful it is that they believe and isn't it nice and I'm looking for faith.
00:46:07.403 --> 00:46:11.108
And then he says, can I ask you an awkward question?
00:46:12.208 --> 00:46:15.132
And the question is, what do you think about polygamy?
00:46:15.833 --> 00:46:22.461
And that's the beginning of sort of the deep dive into the darker parts of where the movie goes, right?
00:46:22.690 --> 00:46:30.021
But the thing that he raises is he says, Joseph Smith was caught with Fanny Alger.
00:46:30.041 --> 00:46:33.005
He says Fanny Alger's name.
00:46:33.425 --> 00:46:34.927
I've always thought it was Alger.
00:46:34.967 --> 00:46:35.007
It
00:46:35.027 --> 00:46:36.048
is.
00:46:36.088 --> 00:46:40.536
Lindsay Hudson Park started saying Alger, so now we say Alger.
00:46:40.576 --> 00:46:43.480
John Bradley talked to some descendants that say it's Alger.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:45.663
I've talked to other descendants who say it's Alger.
00:46:45.702 --> 00:46:48.746
The correct phonetic pronunciation is Alger.
00:46:49.228 --> 00:46:50.429
So I stick with Alger.
00:46:51.329 --> 00:46:55.253
Well, so I have not reviewed all of your material.
00:46:55.454 --> 00:47:03.021
And yesterday you asked me, what is the strongest evidence you have that Joseph Smith is a polygamist?
00:47:03.101 --> 00:47:08.346
And I didn't answer because I'm not really invested in that question in the same way you are.
00:47:08.425 --> 00:47:10.288
And so I wasn't trying to prove my point.
00:47:11.248 --> 00:47:35.181
But after watching that, I went, I would very much like to hear Michelle's take on Fannie Alger Alger, because whether or not Joseph was a polygamist, I think the historical record is very clear that whatever relationship he had with Fanny was enough to drive Oliver Cowdery out of the church.
00:47:35.262 --> 00:47:43.193
We have Oliver Cowdery's statement about the dirty, nasty, filthy scrape or affair, depending on which version of the document you're looking at.
00:47:45.137 --> 00:48:05.420
But my understanding of that event is that Oliver was troubled by it, considered it adultery, was called before a church court to discuss it, and Joseph Smith didn't deny the relationship, but he denied adultery.
00:48:07.603 --> 00:48:11.827
I'm getting this from Richard Bushman, warmed over, so I'm probably getting the details wrong.
00:48:12.688 --> 00:48:27.664
But certainly there's some kind of relationship between Joseph and Fanny that That if it's not a polygamous relationship, it's an adulterous relationship or is it something else?
00:48:28.065 --> 00:48:35.512
So that to me is, I've got to find a way to reconcile that.
00:48:35.632 --> 00:48:37.675
And I'd be very interested to hear your perspective.
00:48:38.576 --> 00:48:38.856
Sure.
00:48:38.876 --> 00:48:44.181
And this is something I would love to get into the documents on because when I just talk about it, it might sound ridiculous.
00:48:44.222 --> 00:48:45.844
What's better is when we get into the documents.
00:48:45.903 --> 00:48:47.786
Can I first take a tiny little sidetrack?
00:48:48.097 --> 00:48:51.161
and respond to the raise up seed comment and then come back to Fanny Alger.
00:48:51.181 --> 00:48:54.865
So this is one thing that I think is really important.
00:48:54.905 --> 00:48:56.246
It's not merely that.
00:48:56.306 --> 00:49:00.692
So all of the excuses that we use to justify polygamy have fallen by the wayside, right?
00:49:00.791 --> 00:49:02.333
It is needed to take care of widows.
00:49:02.733 --> 00:49:06.759
Well, no, because there were more men than women in Utah.
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:08.501
They weren't marrying the widows.
00:49:08.541 --> 00:49:12.686
They were marrying the little girls, the teenage girls, particularly those whose fathers had died.
00:49:13.186 --> 00:49:16.451
Also, you don't need to marry a widow to take care of her.
00:49:16.510 --> 00:49:21.539
If you tell a widow she has to marry you in order to have food and shelter, that's prostitution, right?
00:49:21.559 --> 00:49:28.570
We also have a perfect example of King Limhi taking care of widows by just asking the men to provide for more in the Book of Mormon, not by marrying them.
00:49:28.630 --> 00:49:29.972
So that's one excuse.
00:49:30.032 --> 00:49:31.454
Another is we needed more children born.
00:49:31.494 --> 00:49:33.518
It's been shown that actually fewer children are born.
00:49:34.018 --> 00:49:45.849
But also, just I wanted to point out in that escape clause, if you go to 1 Nephi 7, when Lehi tells his sons to go back to get Ishmael and the girls and his daughters, right?
00:49:45.889 --> 00:49:55.762
And it says that he should not take his family into the wilderness alone, but that his sons should take daughters to wife that they might raise up seed unto the Lord in the land of promise.
00:49:56.242 --> 00:50:00.206
Lehi and his descendants were directly commanded to raise up seed.
00:50:00.246 --> 00:50:05.974
So we can't keep saying that at some other time when God will command people to raise up seed, he'll command polygamy.
00:50:06.014 --> 00:50:10.887
We have every time God has commanded polygamy, people to multiply and replenish.
00:50:10.989 --> 00:50:15.175
And every new beginning, it was done in God's perfect establishment of monogamy.
00:50:15.394 --> 00:50:16.295
Adam and Eve, right?
00:50:16.335 --> 00:50:18.519
Noah and his wife and all of his sons.
00:50:18.579 --> 00:50:20.202
And there were eight souls on the ark.
00:50:20.442 --> 00:50:22.125
Each of Noah's three sons had one wife.
00:50:22.525 --> 00:50:24.487
Each of the animals were one and one.
00:50:24.547 --> 00:50:28.894
It wasn't one male and seven females to repopulate the earth, right?
00:50:28.934 --> 00:50:32.960
Then we have Sariah and Lehi, their sons with one wife each.
00:50:33.001 --> 00:50:34.943
You can read through and see that the numbers are perfect.
00:50:34.983 --> 00:50:40.775
So this is like an amazing job of resting the scriptures that the early polygamists did.
00:50:40.797 --> 00:50:52.541
We also have Hiram Smith on record Levi Richards recorded a sermon that Hironsmith gave when he said that Jacob, the sermon of Jacob is to be seen as a perpetual principle.
00:50:52.581 --> 00:51:04.873
And he says, if an angel were to appear to you and teach you polygamy, you would be sure to see his cloven foot and the cloud of blackness because people were going around saying that, you know, there were people, there were underground polygamists in Nauvoo.
00:51:04.913 --> 00:51:13.139
The only difference between people who claim that Joseph was a polygamist, they claimed that there were underground polygamists in Nauvoo and it was being kept a secret and Joseph was in on it.
00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:20.550
And the big difference is I think actually polygamy was being kept a secret from Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, not that Joseph was part of it.
00:51:21.150 --> 00:51:27.840
And you can see that by the fact that there were hardly any polygamous marriages during Joseph's lifetime other than those that we claim.
00:51:27.981 --> 00:51:32.586
And any claims for marriages don't start until like 1869, way after the fact.
00:51:32.967 --> 00:51:34.228
But as soon as Joseph dies...
00:51:34.818 --> 00:51:40.565
polygamy goes crazy in Nauvoo and there start to be so many polygamous wives taken and so many babies born.
00:51:40.626 --> 00:51:45.132
So that's, I know that's a little bit of a sidetrack, but these are some of the things that I think are important to get into.
00:51:45.213 --> 00:51:51.001
So Fanny Alger was actually a struggle for me in this, in every way.
00:51:51.041 --> 00:51:52.603
How do we make sense of this, right?
00:51:52.623 --> 00:51:53.846
Is it an affair?
00:51:53.885 --> 00:51:56.510
Is it a polygamous child?
00:51:56.673 --> 00:51:56.994
wife.
00:51:57.215 --> 00:52:01.500
How do we make sense of it being a polygamous wife when polygamy hadn't been revealed yet?
00:52:01.579 --> 00:52:03.463
Then we have to go to these other terrible sources.
00:52:03.503 --> 00:52:14.617
So it's a problem for everybody, except the anti-Mormons or the non-Mormons, the people who have left the church, who are just like, Joseph Smith was a con man and a womanizer, and he was always sleeping with the babysitter.
00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:17.880
Oh, shoot.
00:52:18.201 --> 00:52:18.882
We've lost you again.
00:52:21.684 --> 00:52:24.809
Yeah, yesterday, it went out, her phone...
00:52:25.110 --> 00:52:25.190
When
00:52:25.289 --> 00:52:25.309
I...
00:52:25.505 --> 00:52:27.014
Oh, sorry.
00:52:27.054 --> 00:52:29.932
You were about to say sleeping with the babysitter and then you froze.
00:52:31.137 --> 00:52:31.858
Oh, darn it.
00:52:31.898 --> 00:52:32.139
Yeah.
00:52:32.199 --> 00:52:40.313
Well, so anyway, the post-Mormon position is the one that's the most easily explained in the Fanny Alger affair.
00:52:40.353 --> 00:52:42.396
So how do we make sense of what she was, right?
00:52:42.416 --> 00:52:43.079
Was she a wife?
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:43.820
Was she an affair?
00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:45.101
Was she whatever?
00:52:45.181 --> 00:52:52.514
And so when I really dug into the documents on that, I can share a couple of different experiences.
00:52:52.534 --> 00:53:07.820
One challenge I have, I'm hesitant to share insights I have, One challenge I have is it's so easy for people to view me as someone who just is acting out of motivated reasoning because I just desperately need Joseph Smith to be a good guy and I have him on a pedestal.
00:53:07.860 --> 00:53:09.684
So I need to make that make sense.
00:53:10.166 --> 00:53:11.148
And I just...
00:53:11.905 --> 00:53:13.909
That annoys me so much.
00:53:14.128 --> 00:53:15.411
I'm so frustrated by that.
00:53:15.570 --> 00:53:24.585
I feel the same way about that as I do about people saying about people who leave the church that they just did it because they wanted to sin and they just never had a testimony to begin with.
00:53:24.625 --> 00:53:30.072
We make up stories about people so that we don't have to actually see them as people and engage with them, right?
00:53:30.092 --> 00:53:40.822
So I guess I'm requesting people to please do me the honor of not telling me that that's who I am, when I know that that's not who I am, right?
00:53:41.282 --> 00:53:43.427
But I will say that before I...
00:53:44.248 --> 00:53:51.702
History is overwhelming, and the thought of digging into the history just overwhelmed me when I was, you know, when I considered...
00:53:52.226 --> 00:53:57.030
studying out Joseph Smith and this question before I had decided one way or the other.
00:53:57.170 --> 00:54:02.858
And I'll share this experience and then I'll share a little bit of the historical record because this was the order it came in for me.
00:54:02.878 --> 00:54:10.346
I was reading a book that someone sent me that was, it's Whitney Horning's book called Joseph Smith Revealed.
00:54:10.385 --> 00:54:12.969
And she wrote a book saying Joseph wasn't a polygamist, right?
00:54:13.469 --> 00:54:16.393
And I was very skeptical of that idea.
00:54:16.432 --> 00:54:17.773
So I started reading it.
00:54:17.813 --> 00:54:19.655
There were things that I really appreciated.
00:54:19.675 --> 00:54:28.606
There were other things that I didn't agree with as I read it, but I got to her Fanny Alger section and it just bothered me again.
00:54:28.666 --> 00:54:30.708
That story has always bothered me, right?
00:54:30.969 --> 00:54:32.451
Like, how do I make sense of this?
00:54:32.831 --> 00:54:36.255
And so I was actually on an airplane.
00:54:36.335 --> 00:54:39.719
I was flying and I just set the book down because none of it was making sense to me.
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:45.005
And I just prayed and I said, Lord, will you help me understand what happened with Fanny Alger?
00:54:45.474 --> 00:54:47.056
You know, like, can you show me?
00:54:47.115 --> 00:54:48.717
And this is kind of how I work.
00:54:48.737 --> 00:54:52.461
So I'm going to share this at the risk of being totally dismissed by people.
00:54:52.481 --> 00:54:55.405
But I want to continue on, like, listen to a little bit more of it.
00:54:55.445 --> 00:55:05.438
Anyway, when I prayed that, immediately a scene from my freshman year of college that I didn't even know I remembered came right to mind.
00:55:05.478 --> 00:55:08.181
And Jim and I talked about it yesterday.
00:55:08.201 --> 00:55:09.463
We were both in theater.
00:55:09.483 --> 00:55:11.766
I was a music dance theater major at BYU.
00:55:12.226 --> 00:55:14.289
And I was in a musical my freshman year.
00:55:14.369 --> 00:55:15.452
And there were four girls.
00:55:15.492 --> 00:55:16.653
We were working on a dance number.
00:55:16.673 --> 00:55:18.117
And we had a pianist who was a guy.
00:55:18.137 --> 00:55:22.184
And we were going over the vocals after our rehearsals.
00:55:22.224 --> 00:55:23.567
We were all gathered around the piano.
00:55:23.666 --> 00:55:27.393
And being freshmen in college, we were all kind of flirty, I guess.
00:55:27.494 --> 00:55:30.318
One of the girls was giving the pianist a back rub.
00:55:30.358 --> 00:55:32.282
The rest of us were there laughing and giggling.
00:55:32.322 --> 00:55:49.992
And all of a sudden, it was not anything other than just you know, like it was innocent flirtation, but all of a sudden that pianist sat up straight, lifted the girl's hands off of his back, walked up and turned white, walked, stood up and walked toward the door and his wife had come in.
00:55:51.114 --> 00:55:55.902
And so his wife had walked in and he kind of realized I'm having this flirting.
00:55:55.922 --> 00:55:58.047
You know, these girls are all flirting with me.
00:55:58.086 --> 00:56:03.659
And so, and I remember my heart sinking and just being like, oh no, I hope that's okay.
00:56:03.778 --> 00:56:09.905
You know, it was really a good lesson to me of like, oh, I need to be more aware of, you know, the situation.
00:56:09.925 --> 00:56:11.927
Anyway, that came right to my mind.
00:56:11.967 --> 00:56:15.110
And I had not even remembered that event.
00:56:15.710 --> 00:56:19.673
And so it gave me an opening of a way to possibly think about Fanny.
00:56:19.713 --> 00:56:23.797
Like I just had this, I'm not saying this is what happened with Fanny.
00:56:23.918 --> 00:56:28.782
I'm saying this is what I feel the Lord brought to my mind to give me an opening of a way to think about Fanny.
00:56:28.822 --> 00:56:34.934
And what kind of I envisioned is the possibility that, like we do know some things about Fanny.
00:56:34.974 --> 00:56:35.996
She was very attractive.
00:56:36.036 --> 00:56:36.878
She was very outgoing.
00:56:36.938 --> 00:56:38.340
She was very flirtatious.
00:56:38.541 --> 00:56:38.780
Right.
00:56:39.302 --> 00:56:51.623
And so if she was flirting with Joseph, Emma saw that and was upset by it, just like the husband, you know, even though, and that, and that, um, you know, and then, and, and so, so just that possibility.
00:56:51.724 --> 00:57:03.481
And then what was fascinating is as I dug into the historical record, that is the best explanation I can find based on the entire historical record.
00:57:03.943 --> 00:57:05.826
And I can give you a couple of examples about it.
00:57:05.885 --> 00:57:07.967
I won't go into the whole, into the entire theme.
00:57:08.349 --> 00:57:14.818
But yes, it is true that the Fannie Alger situation came up in front of the Kirtland High Council, right?
00:57:14.838 --> 00:57:17.001
This was in Kirtland before they had gone to Nauvoo.
00:57:17.041 --> 00:57:20.184
And it was brought up by Oliver Cowdery.
00:57:20.224 --> 00:57:26.253
But Oliver Cowdery wrote an extensive letter to the Kirtland High Council about all of his allegations about Joseph Smith.
00:57:26.690 --> 00:57:29.132
He doesn't say anything about Fannie Alger.
00:57:29.172 --> 00:57:33.255
That is not one of his main issues.
00:57:33.657 --> 00:57:55.038
It was brought up in the high council discussion, but Joseph Smith explained it adequately to ease all of those high councilman's concerns to the point that they just described it as the girl business, which to me could mean this little girl business thing that happened that was not a big concern.
00:57:55.938 --> 00:58:01.146
It's important to recognize some of the people who were in that high council meeting, including Thomas B.
00:58:01.186 --> 00:58:12.402
Marsh, for example, and several others who left the church not soon after that, who were motivated and were doing everything they could to badmouth Joseph Smith, right?
00:58:12.503 --> 00:58:12.923
Thomas B.
00:58:12.963 --> 00:58:16.989
Marsh admitted that he spread several lies about Joseph Smith.
00:58:17.469 --> 00:58:23.719
Oh my goodness, if there had been adultery in there, isn't that one of the things they would have accused Joseph Smith of?
00:58:23.900 --> 00:58:24.922
And none of them did.
00:58:25.697 --> 00:58:29.902
And so we can go into the entire history of all of the documentation of that.
00:58:29.983 --> 00:58:36.190
It's not good documentation, but it shows very clearly that there is almost nothing here.
00:58:36.271 --> 00:58:48.324
The actual clear stories of Fanny Smith come from Mosiah Hancock, Levi Hancock, and then Mosiah Hancock, like decades later, building on previous claims.
00:58:48.385 --> 00:58:51.789
You just see that the documentation is extremely poor.
00:58:52.610 --> 00:59:02.365
And while I get annoyed when people accuse me of motivated reasoning, what I see actually is a lot of motivated reasoning on all of the other sides, the people that won't engage with me.
00:59:02.405 --> 00:59:09.277
The LDS church under Brigham Young was extremely motivated to claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
00:59:09.356 --> 00:59:12.382
They're absolutely...
00:59:12.706 --> 00:59:19.856
Their credibility, their validity as the church, the successors of Joseph Smith depended on it, right?
00:59:20.376 --> 00:59:27.405
And then we go to today where the LDS church is still motivated to say, the prophets could never lead us astray.
00:59:27.445 --> 00:59:28.867
Our churches just didn't do anything wrong.
00:59:28.907 --> 00:59:31.751
They still need to claim that Brigham Young was right.
00:59:31.851 --> 00:59:33.193
And so Joseph was a polygamist.
00:59:33.594 --> 00:59:42.485
And then for many, many people who have left the church, that is such a traumatic, huge process for many people to go through a faith crisis, to leave the church.
00:59:43.010 --> 00:59:51.617
the last thing they want to do is say, oh, would Joseph Smith maybe not have been actually the person I thought that he was, right?
00:59:51.657 --> 00:59:53.623
And I'm not asking anyone to come back to the church.
00:59:53.684 --> 00:59:58.943
I'm not doing any kind of evangelizing of that sort.
00:59:59.384 --> 01:00:02.887
I don't have an end goal of where I want people to be or what I want people to believe.
01:00:03.007 --> 01:00:10.876
I just want us to look honestly at the documentation and have the rigorous conversations that need to be had without the motivated reasoning I see everywhere.
01:00:10.896 --> 01:00:19.505
Because for so many of the people that are also now fighting against the church, the main thing that they absolutely need is to claim that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:00:19.545 --> 01:00:22.750
It's one of the biggest things that we have to say Joseph Smith was a bad guy.
01:00:23.233 --> 01:00:34.365
And I think it's a shame that the big podcasters in the post LDS space won't have me on because, you know, as, as someone has said, we can't let this get any oxygen, right?
01:00:34.545 --> 01:00:39.931
They're, they're not willing to engage in these honest discussions because of their motivated reasoning.
01:00:40.030 --> 01:00:42.653
So I don't know if that helps with your Fannie Alger discussion.
01:00:42.753 --> 01:00:56.788
I would love to get into the documentation because I think it's interesting to see how, how weak those, um, the documentation actually is and how it's not a good fit at all to claim she's a plural wife.
01:00:56.867 --> 01:01:00.572
The documents do not show that, and the documents do not show that it was an affair.
01:01:00.612 --> 01:01:18.030
The best explanation actually turns out to be the one that my mind opened up to, that there was some flirtation, rather innocent flirtation, but that was inappropriate and was explained to completely satisfy the counselors that maybe Oliver Cowdery misunderstood.
01:01:19.842 --> 01:01:26.552
There's a huge disconnect in this conversation and what I understand what the church's position.
01:01:27.112 --> 01:01:29.036
And I think that's where your work is focused.
01:01:29.615 --> 01:01:33.661
You know, there's historical and seemingly factual disconnect.
01:01:34.222 --> 01:01:39.130
You've got this, you've made this claim that Joe Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:01:39.231 --> 01:01:42.735
The church has, I think for years, agreed with you.
01:01:42.775 --> 01:01:48.344
I think it's taught or suggested that Joe Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:01:48.384 --> 01:01:49.565
That's what I understand.
01:01:49.922 --> 01:01:57.971
understood investigating the church and during my early years in the church didn't know or even heard actually that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:01:57.990 --> 01:02:00.514
I understand that happened from Brigham Young going forward.
01:02:01.635 --> 01:02:11.186
Churches now, for a number of reasons now, come to the position that officially the church states that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:02:11.786 --> 01:02:14.929
In fact, there is some of the work that the churches...
01:02:15.389 --> 01:02:16.652
You glitched out there, Ian.
01:02:16.771 --> 01:02:18.494
The church has stated...
01:02:19.809 --> 01:02:38.637
Yeah, so historically, the church has had a position that Joseph Smith, at least I was taught that Joseph Smith, when I was younger in the church and investigating the church and in my early years in the church, that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy.
01:02:40.201 --> 01:02:48.914
And now, for different reasons, other facts came to the service and the church positioned now that Joseph Smith did in fact practice polygamy.
01:02:49.346 --> 01:02:54.074
How familiar are you with the work of Brian C.
01:02:54.135 --> 01:02:54.496
Hales?
01:02:54.576 --> 01:03:00.807
I've got an article of his which is titled, Encouraging Joe Smith to Practice Plural Marriage, the Accounts.
01:03:01.509 --> 01:03:05.317
Apparently there are several accounts, Jim, of the angel and the drawn sword.
01:03:05.356 --> 01:03:23.431
And Brian Hales says here that in this historical document, which I think the church published, accepts, or in part, he says that the historical record indicates that Joseph Smith contracted his first plural marriage in 1835 or in 1836 in Kirtland, Ohio with Fanny Alger.
01:03:23.472 --> 01:03:30.719
He says, upon learning of this relationship, his legal wife, Emma, and a close friend of Oliver Cowdery rejected it, considering it adulterous.
01:03:30.759 --> 01:03:31.860
We've just got into some of that.
01:03:32.420 --> 01:03:40.389
So the church position or teachings were that Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist.
01:03:41.088 --> 01:03:45.025
It now states clearly that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:03:45.505 --> 01:03:46.666
You're saying he wasn't.
01:03:46.706 --> 01:03:49.050
You're saying that the history suggests that otherwise.
01:03:49.090 --> 01:04:11.273
The two questions that come to mind is what, just as a comment here, it appears that Joseph Smith had an affair with Fanny Alger and to cover it up, got together with some of the brethren and said, look, he's had a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger.
01:04:11.713 --> 01:04:11.994
She's...
01:04:12.414 --> 01:04:13.396
How old is she at this point?
01:04:13.456 --> 01:04:13.896
Is she 14?
01:04:14.757 --> 01:04:15.239
She's 16.
01:04:15.298 --> 01:04:15.518
No.
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:16.760
Well,
01:04:16.780 --> 01:04:17.021
we don't...
01:04:17.782 --> 01:04:20.507
You can't say because we don't know what year it happened, right?
01:04:20.626 --> 01:04:22.349
Dating it is very challenging.
01:04:22.650 --> 01:04:23.010
Okay.
01:04:23.110 --> 01:04:23.911
I've heard 14.
01:04:23.931 --> 01:04:24.773
I've heard 16.
01:04:24.853 --> 01:04:25.393
And Jo Smith...
01:04:25.414 --> 01:04:25.514
She
01:04:25.574 --> 01:04:25.994
wasn't 14.
01:04:26.275 --> 01:04:28.938
She was at least 16 based on the dating I've seen.
01:04:28.958 --> 01:04:29.039
Okay.
01:04:29.860 --> 01:04:30.400
And Jo Smith...
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:30.780
Maybe 18.
01:04:31.202 --> 01:04:32.523
How old is it at this stage, Jo Smith?
01:04:32.543 --> 01:04:32.965
How old is he?
01:04:33.284 --> 01:04:34.166
Oh, way too old.
01:04:34.626 --> 01:04:35.768
In his 30s at that point.
01:04:36.128 --> 01:04:37.050
And they're old.
01:04:37.070 --> 01:04:39.253
So for lots of reasons, you know, having an affair...
01:04:39.617 --> 01:04:42.364
adulterous relationship, which is what I've just quoted there from Brian C.
01:04:42.403 --> 01:05:25.824
Hales, the position of the prophet, perhaps, and I'm just kind of making this up, in order for this to look as, be a bit more acceptable than it really was, there was this notion that, you know, he had a spiritual connection relationship with her and it was sacred and it was some form or version of polygamy in order for it to be acceptable perhaps that's what really happened but my question is with this big disconnect where the church has been quiet at best now still quiet on the subject of polygamy and quiet and what's this thing to go away i agree from what you said earlier polygamy has been a major problem for the church a major probably the biggest problem That, I think, can race in the priesthood, right?
01:05:25.885 --> 01:05:31.103
They're the two, in my experience, the two big challenges that the church still hasn't...
01:05:32.193 --> 01:06:00.972
understood hasn't characterized properly hasn't addressed and would love for these issues to go away so but it now accepts and teaches and positions that Joseph was a polygamist he doesn't want to talk about it anymore he's saying look you know in the essays in the articles he was a polygamist it's done now it was what it was it was back then etc etc it was a different time and and we don't practice polygamy anymore we don't teach it but then as I mentioned earlier uh Elder Oaks has two wives.
01:06:01.271 --> 01:06:03.074
He's sealed two wives.
01:06:03.914 --> 01:06:07.117
And that's something you didn't address when I asked earlier, if you don't mind.
01:06:07.177 --> 01:06:13.585
So my questions are, what was driving the church to bring him to introduce polygamy?
01:06:14.565 --> 01:06:20.811
Did I characterize that relationship, that incident that happened with Fanny Alger correctly or not?
01:06:21.373 --> 01:06:38.664
And what's your position on the church's position that it still teaches in some ways or in some way and practices the principle and practice of polygamy in the temple, where a man can go to the temple and be sealed to two wives.
01:06:39.405 --> 01:06:49.161
I want to interject very quickly before I let you go wild here, Michelle, because I know you are familiar with the work of Brian Hales.
01:06:49.762 --> 01:06:49.822
Yes.
01:06:50.177 --> 01:06:50.978
for one game.
01:06:51.219 --> 01:06:51.860
I am.
01:06:52.219 --> 01:06:58.045
But the one point of order I want to establish here is, where did those balloons come from?
01:06:59.686 --> 01:07:12.099
The one point of order I want to establish here is that I do not think there was ever a time when the church did not teach that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:16.543
Unless you want to count the time that Joseph Smith was alive.
01:07:16.824 --> 01:07:29.259
I mean, since Brigham Young I don't know that there's ever been a time, because I grew up in the church and I can't remember a time when I didn't know Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:07:29.418 --> 01:07:36.327
I think that's unusual because that's not discussed in a lot of families and a lot of circumstances, but it was discussed in mine.
01:07:36.347 --> 01:07:41.494
And if you, section 132 has been in print.
01:07:41.614 --> 01:07:41.693
Yeah.
01:07:42.210 --> 01:07:48.918
since, uh, I guess it's 1870 when it was added to the Doctrine and Covenants, but it's been in print since then.
01:07:48.938 --> 01:08:00.813
And, and it's very clear that the position of the church in section 132 is that this is a revelation that was given to Joseph Smith and therefore Joseph Smith was in fact a polygamist.
01:08:00.873 --> 01:08:13.041
So, I mean, so I, I think that it's important to note that and, and Either or of you guys are welcome to push back on that, but I just wanted to jump in before, Michelle.
01:08:13.061 --> 01:08:16.436
I let you loose to answer Ian's questions.
01:08:16.801 --> 01:08:20.024
When I respond, well, I'll do my best to respond quickly to each of these things.
01:08:20.125 --> 01:08:27.091
I will say, I think that there's a difference between being a Utah Mormon descendant of polygamists, right, and having the perspective that we have.
01:08:27.551 --> 01:08:33.997
And I know that the missionaries for a long time did not teach people, did not teach people that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
01:08:34.356 --> 01:08:39.761
And I know that the term anti-Mormon lies has been applied to Joseph Smith's polygamy many times.
01:08:39.881 --> 01:08:49.943
And I can't dig out right now any leadership quotes, but I know definitely that we were trying intentionally to understate, undermine the idea that Joseph was a polygamist.
01:08:50.023 --> 01:09:02.051
I don't know that it's fair to say I even know some, well, I think it's strange for Utah descendants of polygamists to hear other people say they never knew that Joseph was a polygamist.
01:09:02.412 --> 01:09:11.842
But I think that people who are outside of Utah and not descendants from women's are very valid and legitimate to say that they were not taught that and they were taught the opposite.
01:09:11.863 --> 01:09:13.283
Do you have anything to add?
01:09:13.344 --> 01:09:14.404
That was not taught.
01:09:14.586 --> 01:09:15.145
It was hidden.
01:09:15.185 --> 01:09:17.029
It was not discussed.
01:09:17.088 --> 01:09:18.170
I think that's absolutely true.
01:09:18.434 --> 01:09:21.407
And it was claimed to be anti-woman lies.
01:09:21.787 --> 01:09:21.948
Right.
01:09:21.969 --> 01:09:23.395
Like it was claimed to be untrue.
01:09:23.515 --> 01:09:23.978
So that was,
01:09:24.460 --> 01:09:25.042
yeah.
01:09:25.323 --> 01:09:35.783
But in terms of the official position of the church, It has never been, the church has never taught since Brigham Young that Joseph was not a polygamist.
01:09:36.384 --> 01:09:37.505
Not as an official teaching.
01:09:37.564 --> 01:09:47.453
Not as an official teaching, but culturally, we have hidden it, we have refused to discuss it, we have obfuscated, and we have outright lied in a number of cases.
01:09:47.554 --> 01:09:48.875
Yes, I agree with that.
01:09:48.935 --> 01:09:54.819
And then just really quickly to hit on the Elder Oaks question, since I forgot it last time, and then I have a lot to say on the rest of it.
01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:57.221
You'll have to, again, make sure I get all of it touched on.
01:09:57.242 --> 01:09:59.484
But I think it is a Shame.
01:09:59.505 --> 01:10:05.694
A terrible, terrible shame that we say that men can be sealed to two women and women cannot be sealed to two men.
01:10:05.753 --> 01:10:12.824
And actually, I get in trouble for being emotional, but sometimes these things do make me emotional because of the fallout that I see.
01:10:13.646 --> 01:10:16.971
We have a horrible problem in this church for young widows.
01:10:17.932 --> 01:10:23.181
Women who lose a husband are in this terrible, untouchable class.
01:10:23.681 --> 01:10:37.997
where they have, it's not the Scarlet A, it's the Scarlet W on their chest, where they are forced to choose either to break their ceiling with their husband, who they loved and who died, and who his family is telling her, you better not break your ceiling with our son.
01:10:38.578 --> 01:10:39.841
I mean, these situations I know.
01:10:40.546 --> 01:10:46.636
or having other men in the church refuse to date them and refuse to marry them because he is left alone.
01:10:46.676 --> 01:10:49.962
The children that they have will be sealed to the first husband.
01:10:50.083 --> 01:10:51.886
It is an absolute mess.
01:10:52.006 --> 01:10:56.175
Here we have a situation where Jesus told us to care for the widows and the orphans.
01:10:56.255 --> 01:11:02.246
And we have a doctrine that is built on the backs and crushes the widows in our church.
01:11:02.627 --> 01:11:04.510
And it is an absolute mess.
01:11:04.770 --> 01:11:06.494
It is a shame.
01:11:06.555 --> 01:11:07.918
I don't have strong enough language.
01:11:08.000 --> 01:11:09.944
It makes me so upset, right?
01:11:10.646 --> 01:11:12.713
I have a friend who told me the situation.
01:11:12.734 --> 01:11:15.742
She was a widow.
01:11:15.802 --> 01:11:16.664
She married a widower.
01:11:17.537 --> 01:11:20.283
And so they weren't sealed and they had children together.
01:11:20.304 --> 01:11:30.845
One time they were driving home and, you know, it wasn't an issue for them because they were both already sealed, but their little child was talking about their primary lesson and saying how glad he was that they were an eternal family.
01:11:30.926 --> 01:11:32.488
And, you know, because that was the lesson.
01:11:32.569 --> 01:11:37.279
And one of the older siblings that was broke said, you're not, you weren't an eternal family.
01:11:37.298 --> 01:11:38.421
You're not sealed to dad.
01:11:38.913 --> 01:11:39.675
And he said, what?
01:11:39.775 --> 01:11:44.323
And this child found out that he was sealed to some man who had died who he'd never met, right?
01:11:44.404 --> 01:11:49.554
And it was devastating and has continued to affect that family's relationship with the church.
01:11:50.135 --> 01:11:54.261
This is deplorable and inexcusable and needs to stop.
01:11:55.003 --> 01:11:55.984
We tell women...
01:11:56.417 --> 01:12:23.670
just have faith we tell women like like elder oaks gave a talk in general conference about how stock started out talking about a letter that a woman wrote saying well i have to share a house in the celestial kingdom and and he laughed and everybody laughed and we we can laugh at the genuine heartache of women that this false doctrine love this it was not okay and so for me We are perfectly happy to tell women, just trust God, God will work it out.
01:12:23.729 --> 01:12:24.470
Well, you know what?
01:12:24.912 --> 01:12:26.215
That goes for everybody.
01:12:26.234 --> 01:12:33.288
If I were, you know, Empress for a day, and I'm not, and I recognize that, but I wish deeply.
01:12:33.826 --> 01:12:38.755
that the church would recognize that we don't understand everything and we don't know everything that we think we know.
01:12:38.795 --> 01:12:47.931
And if we would just allow both women and men to be sealed to another spouse after their spouse dies and say, we trust God to work it out.
01:12:48.472 --> 01:12:50.957
Maybe, you know, receive more light and knowledge.
01:12:51.426 --> 01:12:52.407
That would be lovely.
01:12:52.448 --> 01:12:57.335
I think it is a terrible tragedy that we have this inequality in our church.
01:12:57.395 --> 01:13:01.881
And it's just one of many that needs to be given voice and it needs to be spoken out to.
01:13:01.921 --> 01:13:04.484
So when you ask what drives me, these are the things that drive me.
01:13:04.505 --> 01:13:05.907
I think this is not okay.
01:13:05.966 --> 01:13:08.070
So that's my answer to that question.
01:13:08.690 --> 01:13:13.658
And then, yes, I am extremely familiar with the work of Brian Hills.
01:13:14.739 --> 01:13:19.606
Unfortunately, Brian Hills is the one who sets the narrative for the church.
01:13:19.707 --> 01:13:26.273
You know, we have these utterly deniable gospel doctrine essays that aren't signed.
01:13:26.393 --> 01:13:27.715
They're not statements of the church.
01:13:27.734 --> 01:13:29.216
They're just on the church website.
01:13:29.537 --> 01:13:33.243
No, you know, so that they can, but anyway, and Brian C.
01:13:33.262 --> 01:13:38.170
Hales was heavily involved in writing the one for the Nauvoo, for Nauvoo polygamy.
01:13:38.210 --> 01:13:43.057
His trilogy is, oh, I have so much I could say.
01:13:43.554 --> 01:13:45.877
In my opinion, Brian C.
01:13:46.137 --> 01:13:55.493
Hales is best seen not as a historian, because he's not, but as an apologist in the negative sense of the word, not the positive sense of the word, right?
01:13:56.173 --> 01:14:00.461
Brian has been involved in trying to get me excommunicated from the church.
01:14:01.362 --> 01:14:06.390
He is not willing to engage in discourse, and he does not want these ideas spread.
01:14:06.430 --> 01:14:11.337
He wants people silenced and punished for daring to disagree with him.
01:14:11.778 --> 01:14:13.381
He doesn't say that about other issues.
01:14:13.402 --> 01:14:18.274
It's just him trying to protect his status as the one that, this is my perspective.
01:14:18.336 --> 01:14:23.309
And I try to, I'm trying to play nicely, but this gets really personal.
01:14:24.354 --> 01:14:26.377
Engage in honest history.
01:14:26.396 --> 01:14:27.979
Engage in discourse.
01:14:28.359 --> 01:14:35.189
Do not use these sneaky behind-the-scenes power games to try to get people deplatformed from historical conferences, which he did.
01:14:35.229 --> 01:14:39.997
And he's like beside himself that I haven't been excommunicated.
01:14:40.037 --> 01:14:47.667
He's constantly talking about what local leaders should do, and he's pulling whatever channels he can to try to get people excommunicated.
01:14:47.707 --> 01:14:49.010
He doesn't know my family.
01:14:49.050 --> 01:14:51.153
He doesn't know my relationship with the church.
01:14:51.293 --> 01:14:53.796
I think that is inexcusable again, right?
01:14:54.434 --> 01:15:01.202
So I think that if we have a good narrative, it should be able to be discussed rigorously and it shouldn't have to be silenced.
01:15:01.261 --> 01:15:14.257
And so I have personally caught Brian Hales being deeply dishonest with historical documents, claiming he has seen things and claiming they say things that they do not say and vice versa.
01:15:14.318 --> 01:15:22.436
He claims that the leaders of the church never taught That polygamy was required for exaltation, which is blatantly false.
01:15:23.478 --> 01:15:26.240
So Brian Hills sets the narrative for the church.
01:15:26.320 --> 01:15:30.805
And if we want to be in line with the church, we have to believe the church narrative according to Brian Hills.
01:15:30.984 --> 01:15:37.250
I strongly disagree, which would requires us literally to believe that God did indeed send an angel with a sword.
01:15:37.270 --> 01:15:40.153
He clarifies it was a drawn sword, not a flaming sword.
01:15:40.193 --> 01:15:41.514
We have sources that say both.
01:15:41.613 --> 01:15:42.395
It's ridiculous.
01:15:42.595 --> 01:15:44.155
It is ridiculous.
01:15:44.176 --> 01:15:49.483
But we are required to believe that God sent an angel with a sword threatening to kill Joseph if he didn't betray Emma.
01:15:49.502 --> 01:15:53.836
And Emma was apt to blame for that, for not getting on board with it.
01:15:54.759 --> 01:15:56.042
That's what we are required to believe.
01:15:56.082 --> 01:16:09.060
We are required to believe that polygamy, I mean, we are required to believe things that are an intellectual complete contradiction to the actual historical record that we can believe for ourselves, that we can read for ourselves, right?
01:16:09.081 --> 01:16:13.685
The church's stance on polygamy right now is a complete, complete mess.
01:16:14.065 --> 01:16:19.230
And it's because they rely on Brian Hales to give them the narrative that they think is the best for them.
01:16:19.350 --> 01:16:23.314
And I strongly, strongly disagree that it is the best for them.
01:16:23.375 --> 01:16:29.582
I think it is a terrible narrative for the church to hold to because it is verifiably untrue.
01:16:30.113 --> 01:16:34.786
And the more that people see that, the more it weakens the credibility of the church, right?
01:16:34.865 --> 01:16:38.534
We need to be able to trust that the church is telling us the truth.
01:16:38.715 --> 01:16:41.181
Enough of people feeling like the church lied to them.
01:16:41.601 --> 01:16:46.047
And we are pushing false narratives on the people.
01:16:46.127 --> 01:16:55.079
And then we have people trying to enforce those narratives and saying, if you speak aloud and disagree with the narrative I said, I will see that you are excommunicated from the church.
01:16:55.860 --> 01:16:57.703
I cannot abide that.
01:16:58.243 --> 01:17:02.789
I don't know what I can't remember what the rest of your question was, Ian, but I'm happy to try to get to the rest of it.
01:17:03.202 --> 01:17:08.694
No, you've done a fantastic job and your passion, your strength is incredible, actually.
01:17:09.135 --> 01:17:10.698
And I'm glad you brought up the Brian T.
01:17:10.738 --> 01:17:11.000
Hills.
01:17:11.740 --> 01:17:18.697
And I think this, for many of our listeners, they've probably not heard about these issues.
01:17:18.716 --> 01:17:22.425
What I have to say is I'd love to get you back on again.
01:17:23.137 --> 01:17:24.859
actually, and do a deep dive on this.
01:17:24.920 --> 01:17:27.943
It's something that really interests me, and I'd be most interested in that.
01:17:28.564 --> 01:17:31.485
I just want to go back to another question, and you've answered my question, thank you.
01:17:31.506 --> 01:17:41.336
I want to go back to another key thread that runs through this conversation, because I think it connects so many things, maybe.
01:17:42.037 --> 01:17:44.779
What was the objective of the church with polygamy?
01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:46.442
You know, you've got these big disconnects.
01:17:46.481 --> 01:17:47.443
You've got the Brian C.
01:17:47.462 --> 01:17:50.405
Hales position, you've got your position, you've got the church...
01:17:50.978 --> 01:17:58.292
walking this fine balancing act, you know, didn't want to talk about it, wants to go away, making all these claims, some true, not true.
01:17:58.332 --> 01:18:07.788
If we go back to the main thrust of polygamy, the main principle, the fundamental objective, if you like, of polygamy, what was it?
01:18:08.029 --> 01:18:23.900
Was it something as base as men wanting to sleep with more women and justify that in some spiritual cloak, et cetera, the infidelity of men, men taking advantage of women, et cetera?
01:18:24.381 --> 01:18:26.323
Or was it more spiritual?
01:18:26.503 --> 01:18:29.847
Was it a command from God?
01:18:29.887 --> 01:18:36.838
In your research, is there any evidence that God did command you know, men to have polygamy.
01:18:36.859 --> 01:18:40.882
Because we read about it in the Bible, you know, concubines, and it's referenced in the Book of Mormon.
01:18:41.423 --> 01:18:42.305
So I guess there's two questions.
01:18:42.345 --> 01:18:46.609
What was the main objective of the church in introducing the polygamy?
01:18:46.628 --> 01:18:47.789
What was it trying to achieve?
01:18:47.810 --> 01:19:05.670
And the second question is, do you accept any evidence, based on your research, that God is ultimately behind this principle and practice and that he commands this principle and practice periodically throughout history.
01:19:05.729 --> 01:19:08.283
Sometimes he wants it, other times he doesn't.
01:19:08.685 --> 01:19:11.358
So there's two questions there.
01:19:11.554 --> 01:19:13.336
So these are more huge questions.
01:19:13.395 --> 01:19:16.377
I will do my best to answer them as concisely as I possibly can.
01:19:16.417 --> 01:19:22.302
First of all, no, there is no scriptural evidence that God ever has ever commanded polygamy.
01:19:22.422 --> 01:19:23.264
Quite the opposite.
01:19:23.344 --> 01:19:31.631
We have scripture after scripture, including in Joseph Smith's Doctrine and Covenants section 142, thou shalt cleave to thy wife and only thy wife and no one else.
01:19:32.032 --> 01:19:35.475
And even to look upon a woman to lust after her is adultery, right?
01:19:35.854 --> 01:19:37.537
And polygamy is declared to be abomination.
01:19:37.617 --> 01:19:42.282
Verse one of section 132 falsely says that God commanded polygamy.
01:19:42.322 --> 01:19:43.184
He never did.
01:19:43.224 --> 01:19:44.847
There's nothing in the historical record.
01:19:45.167 --> 01:19:54.128
You can see how every time polygamy happened, why it happened, it never was as a result of God, and it always led to terrible, terrible outcomes.
01:19:54.594 --> 01:19:55.975
By their fruit, she shall know them, right?
01:19:56.015 --> 01:19:59.140
So we could go into the biblical discussion, but that would be a big discussion.
01:19:59.220 --> 01:20:00.021
I'm happy to have it.
01:20:00.382 --> 01:20:03.488
To the other question of where this comes from.
01:20:03.507 --> 01:20:05.551
So there are many ways to answer this.
01:20:05.591 --> 01:20:08.354
And I think that different people, all different people are different, right?
01:20:08.435 --> 01:20:12.862
I think that the majority of the people were convinced that this is actually was of God.
01:20:12.881 --> 01:20:18.430
There were many people in Utah who did not want to be polygamous, but who wanted exaltation, right?
01:20:18.449 --> 01:20:21.435
That's definitely the case of many, many people.
01:20:21.755 --> 01:20:26.148
If we go back to the beginning, This is one thing, and I don't want to...
01:20:26.188 --> 01:20:33.274
This is a very big and nuanced conversation, so I'll try to give it just kind of from a high-level view, if that's okay.
01:20:33.295 --> 01:20:35.797
Then we can dig in maybe in our next conversation if you'd like to.
01:20:35.837 --> 01:20:38.220
But here's kind of a situation.
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:44.286
Incredibly powerful men who seem like they have the world in their hands, right?
01:20:44.365 --> 01:20:48.270
Like, we can look at politicians, athletes, actors, whatever it is.
01:20:48.289 --> 01:20:52.253
A man that reaches the pinnacle does not have limits, right?
01:20:52.481 --> 01:20:53.344
for the most part, right?
01:20:53.423 --> 01:20:56.871
He's not limited in his money, in his wealth, in his access.
01:20:57.271 --> 01:20:59.917
He can have as many cars as he wants, as many homes as he wants.
01:20:59.938 --> 01:21:05.048
And most men in that position also can have as many women as they want, right?
01:21:06.050 --> 01:21:20.837
It's a big challenge for a religious man who reaches the pinnacle because he can have as many, I mean, Brigham Young built home after home after home after home as people, as one of my great-great-grandmothers was starving to death and dug out Lehi, literally died of starvation, right?
01:21:21.578 --> 01:21:29.373
A man at the pinnacle who is religious needs a way to not be limited to one wife, right?
01:21:29.506 --> 01:21:29.806
Right.
01:21:29.827 --> 01:21:31.653
And it's not so much.
01:21:31.734 --> 01:21:33.801
Well, there are so many discussions we could go to with this.
01:21:34.341 --> 01:21:42.350
But I think the polygamy naturally grows out of a religious mindset for men at the pinnacle who find a way that God can.
01:21:42.658 --> 01:21:43.680
removes the limits.
01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:45.442
We have that with David and Solomon.
01:21:45.483 --> 01:21:46.765
We have it with many others, right?
01:21:47.225 --> 01:21:49.269
Polygamy is part of the natural man.
01:21:49.309 --> 01:21:53.154
We can look back in many different societies, Genghis Khan.
01:21:53.295 --> 01:21:56.940
And I mean, again and again, like women were seen as booty.
01:21:57.341 --> 01:22:02.990
And the more powerful you were, the bigger your kingdom was, the bigger your army was, the bigger your palace was, and the bigger your harem was.
01:22:03.511 --> 01:22:06.076
And that holds true in Mormon polygamy, right?
01:22:06.136 --> 01:22:08.439
So it's not just lust.
01:22:08.659 --> 01:22:09.581
It's a bigger...
01:22:10.529 --> 01:22:24.319
story it's power and lust and being at the top right polygamy is a very testosterone driven institution i'll go into this really quickly because i did an episode on Brain chemistry, polygamy in the male brain, I think is what that episode is called.
01:22:24.338 --> 01:22:26.181
And it was fascinating to me to study this out.
01:22:26.943 --> 01:22:31.831
Men's brains, a single man's brain is very testosterone driven.
01:22:31.871 --> 01:22:36.479
It's very high in testosterone because testosterone is the conquest hormone, right?
01:22:36.559 --> 01:22:40.104
The hunt and find, you're jockeying for position.
01:22:40.164 --> 01:22:41.527
Where do I rank in the hierarchy?
01:22:41.627 --> 01:22:44.631
And I need to get the wife, get the woman, right?
01:22:45.011 --> 01:22:46.435
That is all very testosterone.
01:22:46.774 --> 01:22:50.997
Once a man is married, Different brain chemicals take over.
01:22:51.037 --> 01:22:57.488
His testosterone actually lowers and his oxytocin rises because it's no longer conquest and hunt and find.
01:22:57.587 --> 01:22:59.150
It's now bond, right?
01:22:59.532 --> 01:23:06.823
So his brain chemistry actually changes and he's no longer jockeying for position that same way and he's not out on the prowl the same way.
01:23:06.884 --> 01:23:07.604
He's now bonding.
01:23:08.226 --> 01:23:19.561
Once that couple has a child, his testosterone again goes down and his oxytocin again rises because it's now bond and protect and provide and defend, right?
01:23:20.042 --> 01:23:34.255
And you can see this happening when we look at societies where it's like, even, you know, like, movies of different cultures, whereas the young men who want to go to war and the older men who are fathers who are saying, hold on, what other options do we have, right?
01:23:34.815 --> 01:23:40.327
And that is a genuine result of very positive brain chemistry that happens.
01:23:40.567 --> 01:23:56.243
And so for me, as someone who believes in God, I look at this and I have looked at polygamy Every single way, sociologically, psychologically, biologically, in every single way, like all things testify of Christ, all things testify of God's establishment of monogamy, right?
01:23:56.844 --> 01:24:05.836
A fascinating thing is that studies have been done that show that in polygamy, a male brain does not undergo the same changes.
01:24:06.596 --> 01:24:10.943
Because even when a man is married, if he's polygamous, he's still on the prowl.
01:24:11.082 --> 01:24:12.645
He's still jockeying for position.
01:24:12.765 --> 01:24:14.400
I have I've mentioned this before.
01:24:14.421 --> 01:24:22.760
I have a sister who, you know, polygamists are very heavily involved in construction, especially in Utah and the surrounding areas, right?
01:24:23.301 --> 01:24:26.108
And she was working for a construction company.
01:24:26.167 --> 01:24:27.971
And so she was dealing with a lot of polygamist men.
01:24:28.051 --> 01:24:33.506
And she had several experiences of seeing married men Still on the prowl.
01:24:33.847 --> 01:24:36.511
It was very foreign to her, but this is what it is.
01:24:36.932 --> 01:24:45.087
She told me about a story where there was a woman in her prairie dress sitting, nursing the baby, taking care of the toddler, and in walked a pretty girl.
01:24:45.146 --> 01:24:46.829
And her husband stood up.
01:24:46.909 --> 01:24:56.405
I mean, it's like this outright flirting that a monogamous man go through a training and a discipline that changes who they are.
01:24:56.833 --> 01:24:59.479
actually to the level of their brain chemistry, right?
01:24:59.498 --> 01:25:02.564
And in polygamy, that doesn't happen.
01:25:02.623 --> 01:25:10.077
And that's how we get a King David who was standing out watching the mikvah on the roof, which was the women's ritual bath.
01:25:10.278 --> 01:25:11.038
Shocking, right?
01:25:11.479 --> 01:25:21.578
And his lust was, he was so used to feeding his lust, to not having limits, that even when there was a woman who was already married, he could not handle not having his lust gratified.
01:25:22.082 --> 01:25:25.189
And so I think polygamy is multifaceted.
01:25:25.210 --> 01:25:27.676
It's so easy for men to say, oh, I wouldn't want that.
01:25:28.436 --> 01:25:39.944
But when you are, I don't know, you've been married for a while and there's a young pretty girl, when most monogamous men are trained to say, no, I am committed to my wife, right?
01:25:40.417 --> 01:25:44.826
But when your wife's had a couple of kids, maybe things are a little bit difficult.
01:25:44.886 --> 01:25:49.635
You're equally yoked, and it's hard for a man and a woman to—marriage is hard, right?
01:25:49.675 --> 01:25:53.862
How much easier to be able to just go get that young girl instead?
01:25:53.881 --> 01:25:57.007
But, you know, who wants to be stuck with a woman in her 40s?
01:25:57.047 --> 01:26:02.557
When you can have girls that are 15 and 16 is kind of how the mindset changes, right?
01:26:02.786 --> 01:26:07.996
And so it's very pernicious and it can be subtle until you actually look into it.
01:26:08.015 --> 01:26:13.466
That was the thing I realized of how naive I was, was in marriage, marriage is hard.
01:26:13.485 --> 01:26:15.029
It is hard, right?
01:26:15.069 --> 01:26:16.332
To keep a relationship healthy.
01:26:16.372 --> 01:26:18.636
And the thing we have going for us is that we're equally yoked.
01:26:19.136 --> 01:26:23.545
My husband is as invested in our relationship as I am.
01:26:23.585 --> 01:26:27.617
As soon as polygamy enters, That flies out the window.
01:26:27.756 --> 01:26:34.810
And what we get is a man who has all of the power and the women who hope to please him and try to be his favorite.
01:26:34.850 --> 01:26:37.314
And Keep Sweet grows automatically out of that.
01:26:37.354 --> 01:26:41.222
And we see the beginnings of it in the early Utah polygamist era, right?
01:26:41.302 --> 01:26:44.829
And so it just devastates us.
01:26:45.122 --> 01:26:48.305
human relationships in so many different ways.
01:26:48.725 --> 01:26:55.313
And so, and you know, we do have this story of Brigham Young meeting his last favorite wife and seeing her at the railway station.
01:26:55.493 --> 01:27:00.519
And here he is in, you know, I'm sorry, a dirty old man, you know, just like David was a dirty old man.
01:27:00.599 --> 01:27:03.902
When David was an old man, David in the Bible, they couldn't keep him warm.
01:27:03.962 --> 01:27:06.685
So I don't know, if you can't keep grandpa warm, what do you do?
01:27:06.744 --> 01:27:09.568
Like put him by the fire, put blankets on him, give him warm soup.
01:27:10.029 --> 01:27:17.662
No, with David, what they needed to do was find the most beautiful young girl And so they do go through the whole thing.
01:27:18.113 --> 01:27:25.180
to find Abishag, who is, I don't know, 12, 13, 14, and they have her lie with David.
01:27:25.220 --> 01:27:31.345
He's too old to consummate, but these are terrible, terrible things to defend.
01:27:32.006 --> 01:27:35.689
When we read the early Mormons, they're defending these things.
01:27:35.708 --> 01:27:41.434
They're proclaiming how much God loves his faithful polygamous leaders because he provides for them in this way, right?
01:27:41.755 --> 01:27:47.600
So yeah, you have Brigham Young at the train station seeing this 22-year-old girl and wanting her.
01:27:48.079 --> 01:27:49.662
being able to have her, right?
01:27:49.962 --> 01:27:57.132
And so it really changes the way that, like, it changes the way that polygamous men perceive the world.
01:27:57.654 --> 01:28:04.944
And I could go into, like, Joseph Smith, if we look at his life, this is one of the evidences to me, he and Emma really were equally yoked.
01:28:05.324 --> 01:28:35.604
We could read their letters to each other, the way they spoke to each other, the way they relied on each other and trusted each other, how Joseph had Emma involved in his business dealings, how he trusted her, how Joseph put Emma first in as the president of the relief society and told the women to sustain her i'm sorry polygamous men do not do this with women in general and particularly with women who oppose polygamy right we can go to brigham young's sermons that he gave to the um Remember, I think it might have been the elders and the 70.
01:28:35.904 --> 01:28:40.869
He gave the same, a very similar sermon twice that we have some records available to us of.
01:28:41.310 --> 01:28:45.354
And if you read what he said, it's a sermon where he told, where he disbanded the Relief Society.
01:28:45.395 --> 01:28:50.539
He told them that if you see women huddling together, veto the affair.
01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:52.622
Like he said, women were not allowed to talk to each other.
01:28:52.662 --> 01:28:54.623
The Relief Society is, what are Relief Societies for?
01:28:54.663 --> 01:28:56.725
To relieve us of our best men, right?
01:28:56.746 --> 01:28:58.568
He blamed the Relief Society.
01:28:58.667 --> 01:29:04.363
And in one of those sermons, He says, any man who is led by a woman will be led directly to hell.
01:29:04.422 --> 01:29:08.047
No woman will ever get into the celestial kingdom unless she's led there by a man.
01:29:08.108 --> 01:29:10.131
And a man who follows a woman will go directly to hell.
01:29:10.551 --> 01:29:14.856
And then he literally says these words, God knew what Eve was.
01:29:16.298 --> 01:29:16.498
Right?
01:29:16.579 --> 01:29:20.944
We can see a history of Brigham Young as sort of a woman hater to some extent.
01:29:21.025 --> 01:29:28.775
We can look at the dynamic between Brigham and his wife and compared to the dynamic between Joseph and his wife.
01:29:28.815 --> 01:29:29.417
So it just...
01:29:30.658 --> 01:29:35.684
Polygamy grows out of a different kind of mindset, and then it creates a different kind of mindset.
01:29:35.804 --> 01:29:45.734
And I think it is very contrary to the kind of godly men that God expects his true followers to be.
01:29:45.755 --> 01:29:45.774
I
01:29:48.738 --> 01:29:50.479
can't thank you enough for that perspective.
01:29:50.619 --> 01:29:57.832
I think it's really interesting to think of it in that way, and I hadn't thought of it in terms of the the man on the prowl.
01:29:59.073 --> 01:30:07.627
We want to wind this up here a little bit, but we would very much, I would very much like to have you come back and do more of a deep dive on some of this.
01:30:07.646 --> 01:30:09.890
I want to share a quick story.
01:30:09.930 --> 01:30:14.738
So my great-grandfather on my father's side is Heber J.
01:30:14.778 --> 01:30:22.810
Grant, who was, people don't realize was a polygamist because by the time he became president of the church, two of his three wives had died.
01:30:23.586 --> 01:30:30.595
And so he sort of presented as a monogamist as president of the church, but he was in fact a polygamist.
01:30:30.635 --> 01:30:33.057
And one of the wives that had died is my great-grandmother.
01:30:33.097 --> 01:30:39.525
And at one point, my grandmother, who was Heber J.
01:30:39.565 --> 01:30:49.398
Grant's last surviving daughter, passed away in 1995, I think it was, was going through some of his letters.
01:30:50.369 --> 01:30:54.836
his letters to my great-grandmother and letters to his other polygamous wives.
01:30:55.837 --> 01:30:56.677
And one of Heber J.
01:30:56.698 --> 01:31:02.005
Grant's grandsons was Truman Madsen, who's my first cousin once removed.
01:31:02.985 --> 01:31:05.269
And he was going through these letters with my grandmother.
01:31:05.429 --> 01:31:11.896
And he said to her, Francis, you need to publish these because these are so lovely.
01:31:12.297 --> 01:31:15.161
And they demonstrate that polygamy was not terrible.
01:31:16.181 --> 01:31:22.770
And they show how a polygamous relationship Kieber J.
01:31:22.810 --> 01:31:29.560
Grant practiced polygamy in a magnanimous and wonderful way, and his relationship with his wives was so beautiful.
01:31:30.002 --> 01:31:32.786
This would be so good for the church if you were to publish these.
01:31:34.068 --> 01:31:37.453
And my grandmother thought, well, jeez, I don't know.
01:31:37.514 --> 01:31:38.194
What should I do?
01:31:38.234 --> 01:31:40.318
And called Spencer W.
01:31:40.377 --> 01:31:43.061
Kimball, who was the president of the church at the time.
01:31:44.344 --> 01:31:45.305
And Spencer W.
01:31:45.345 --> 01:31:47.869
Kimball was on her doorstep that same day.
01:31:48.833 --> 01:31:49.895
to talk to her about it.
01:31:50.956 --> 01:31:56.162
And what he said to her was, you are under absolutely no obligation to publish these.
01:31:57.283 --> 01:32:03.869
And furthermore, there's a lot of polygamy in my family and it isn't lovely.
01:32:03.890 --> 01:32:06.193
It's really kind of ugly.
01:32:06.233 --> 01:32:13.020
And so this was the time in the church when it was, let's not talk about this at all.
01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:14.641
Let's tamp this down.
01:32:14.681 --> 01:32:16.162
Let's not discuss it.
01:32:16.564 --> 01:32:18.506
Let's hope it just sort of goes away.
01:32:19.297 --> 01:32:25.069
And that was the counsel that the president of the church gave my grandmother all those years ago.
01:32:25.090 --> 01:32:31.262
And I think we are now dealing with a reckoning with this.
01:32:32.265 --> 01:32:40.728
One of the big problems we have in the church is that we think if we just don't talk about it, if we just sort of move on, that the problem goes away.
01:32:40.988 --> 01:32:45.015
We're seeing that not just with polygamy, but we're also definitely seeing it with race.
01:32:45.175 --> 01:32:49.703
I went on tour with the Tabernacle Choir, and we sang in the Martin Luther King Jr.
01:32:49.762 --> 01:33:14.368
Chapel with Spelman and Morehouse Colleges, these traditionally black colleges in Georgia, and sort of tried to say, okay, here we are with this wonderful racial reconciliation that we're having with the world, but it's not getting there because we still haven't reckoned with our legacy on that issue.
01:33:14.488 --> 01:33:20.055
As Paul Reeve has said, how can you root out racism if we don't look at its roots?
01:33:21.318 --> 01:33:24.521
And I think the same principle applies with polygamy.
01:33:24.841 --> 01:33:28.587
Again, you have not convinced me that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.
01:33:29.207 --> 01:33:37.439
You have convinced me that we have not addressed this issue head on.
01:33:39.801 --> 01:33:44.007
Brian Hales apparently used to sing in the Tabernacle Choir.
01:33:44.028 --> 01:33:46.011
I hear lovely things about him as a human being.
01:33:46.532 --> 01:33:49.957
I think it's terrible that he's trying to get anybody excommunicated, least of all you.
01:33:49.997 --> 01:33:52.862
Not least of all, I mean most of all you.
01:33:54.063 --> 01:33:58.569
But this isn't an indictment of Brian Hales or anybody else.
01:33:58.810 --> 01:34:01.895
It's a, look, we don't have a choice anymore.
01:34:02.796 --> 01:34:04.398
We have to look at these things.
01:34:04.498 --> 01:34:05.680
We have to confront them.
01:34:05.739 --> 01:34:07.863
We have to to reckon with them.
01:34:07.962 --> 01:34:23.703
And even if we have to accept that Brigham Young introduced polygamy, even though we've taught that Joseph did, or we have to accept that, no, Joseph did, in fact, teach polygamy, and this is a stain on Joseph.
01:34:24.545 --> 01:34:27.387
Because right now, it's a stain on all of us.
01:34:28.128 --> 01:34:37.463
Not necessarily even because polygamy is right or wrong, but because we aren't willing to to confront and accept our history.
01:34:38.626 --> 01:34:42.289
Can I just add one thing, just really quickly to what you're saying?
01:34:42.310 --> 01:34:54.184
I do want to say, I did not want to get into the question of Joseph Smith for huge reasons, because I knew it would eclipse what I see as the far more important message that I want to get out.
01:34:54.984 --> 01:34:58.467
My overarching message is, polygamy is not of God.
01:34:58.488 --> 01:35:00.331
And I hope that you're saying that.
01:35:00.371 --> 01:35:06.676
I don't know that you needed to be convinced of that, but the But that is what our church needs to deal with at its core.
01:35:06.716 --> 01:35:12.988
As I continue to research, I learned to my great surprise that I also believe it's not of Joseph Smith.
01:35:13.310 --> 01:35:15.252
But that's not the important issue.
01:35:15.274 --> 01:35:17.136
The important issue is it's not of God.
01:35:17.157 --> 01:35:23.831
I don't know if I'm willing to go there fully.
01:35:25.132 --> 01:35:25.273
Yeah.
01:35:26.050 --> 01:35:27.672
I'm willing to consider that.
01:35:29.074 --> 01:35:32.159
When I got married, my wife said exactly what you're saying.
01:35:32.239 --> 01:35:33.082
Polygamy is not of God.
01:35:33.101 --> 01:35:34.143
It was all just nonsense.
01:35:34.904 --> 01:35:35.926
And I thought, oh, crud.
01:35:37.349 --> 01:35:38.369
My wife's going to hell.
01:35:38.890 --> 01:35:41.015
She's not a true believer.
01:35:41.034 --> 01:35:44.661
And the more I've looked at this, the more I've gotten into this.
01:35:46.824 --> 01:35:49.368
Whether something is of God or not is...
01:35:51.105 --> 01:36:00.725
is a really large and in some ways personal question because, you know, we talked yesterday about section 132 and you said, you know, is this of God?
01:36:00.765 --> 01:36:05.795
And I can point you to parts of section 132 that I absolutely believe are of God.
01:36:05.814 --> 01:36:06.596
I agree.
01:36:06.617 --> 01:36:10.744
And then I can point you to parts in section 132 that I think are absolutely abhorrent.
01:36:11.806 --> 01:36:12.970
And so...
01:36:13.314 --> 01:36:22.805
Reconciling that, that I think to a large degree is the purpose of mortality, trying to figure out where God's hand is in everything.
01:36:22.905 --> 01:36:28.192
And so I'm not willing to say that God's hand could not have in any way been involved in polygamy.
01:36:29.413 --> 01:36:42.170
But I am willing to say that we need to ask that question and we need to confront it and be willing to follow wherever the truth leads.
01:36:43.073 --> 01:36:45.398
Yeah, I know we're wrapping up.
01:36:45.438 --> 01:37:02.444
I just wanted to respond to that one part really quickly and say that's where the historical work helps because it was so, so, I don't know, just like amazing to me when I saw the evidence to show that Joseph Smith did teach the beautiful parts of section that are now in section 132 because Joseph absolutely did.
01:37:02.945 --> 01:37:08.775
receive a revelation and teach it on eternal marriage that was later tampered with to create 132.
01:37:08.815 --> 01:37:12.622
So I just wanted to validate that I have the same perspective on section 132.
01:37:14.024 --> 01:37:19.354
And I think that that's important to recognize that that can be shown in the historical record.
01:37:20.833 --> 01:37:22.076
Ian, any parting thoughts?
01:37:22.515 --> 01:37:23.757
Yeah, just a few.
01:37:23.818 --> 01:37:24.418
I'll be real quick.
01:37:24.800 --> 01:37:27.162
Michelle, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast.
01:37:27.243 --> 01:37:28.625
I've learned so much from you.
01:37:28.664 --> 01:37:30.787
I think you're an extraordinary individual.
01:37:30.849 --> 01:37:31.389
I mean that.
01:37:31.649 --> 01:37:35.574
And I appreciate your feelings and respect them, your emotions.
01:37:36.356 --> 01:37:42.685
You know, this is a very important topic and I would love to have a more deeper dive on this for sure.
01:37:43.086 --> 01:37:43.927
Just some quick thoughts.
01:37:45.229 --> 01:37:45.369
I...
01:37:45.761 --> 01:37:51.010
Before you came on to the podcast and had the conversation, I believe Joseph Smith practiced polygamy.
01:37:51.229 --> 01:37:58.320
Now, listening to you, and there's so much more to this conversation than we have time for right now, now I don't know.
01:37:58.341 --> 01:38:00.283
I've read the Brian C.
01:38:00.323 --> 01:38:00.944
Hale stuff.
01:38:01.125 --> 01:38:03.970
I know the church's official position, read the essay.
01:38:04.514 --> 01:38:07.037
I know this is a major, major issue for the church.
01:38:07.917 --> 01:38:10.079
Publicly, it denounces polygamy.
01:38:10.400 --> 01:38:16.106
Privately, we all know, let's face it, it still believes it and practices it in the temple.
01:38:17.047 --> 01:38:19.511
I think it would like it to go away.
01:38:19.530 --> 01:38:21.412
I don't think the church wants to talk about this.
01:38:22.755 --> 01:38:24.396
We want to put it in a box and lock it up.
01:38:25.257 --> 01:38:28.881
And I think that...
01:38:30.050 --> 01:38:31.811
That's a mistake from what you guys are saying.
01:38:31.891 --> 01:38:33.875
I think it's important to talk about this.
01:38:34.997 --> 01:38:38.020
I am willing to come out and say, and I've always felt this.
01:38:38.240 --> 01:38:39.582
I'm not sure if I shared this with Jim.
01:38:40.023 --> 01:38:42.246
I never believed polygamy was of God, ever.
01:38:43.167 --> 01:38:45.390
Even when I was a bishop or on the state presidency.
01:38:45.430 --> 01:38:46.452
I mean, that's irrelevant.
01:38:46.471 --> 01:38:47.573
That little calling is irrelevant.
01:38:47.632 --> 01:38:50.377
It's how I felt personally in my personal testament.
01:38:50.457 --> 01:38:57.405
I never accepted the rejection of the blacks in regards to the priesthood.
01:38:57.686 --> 01:38:57.886
Never.
01:38:57.907 --> 01:38:59.149
It always felt wrong.
01:38:59.208 --> 01:38:59.649
I've read.
01:39:00.162 --> 01:39:12.576
awful, disgusting, grotesque quotes by Brigham Young, mostly, I believe, from what I've read, in regards to the race and the priesthood, that, you know, I found deeply offensive.
01:39:12.615 --> 01:39:14.637
And I'm a white guy, right?
01:39:15.399 --> 01:39:20.805
I can't imagine how those black folks felt when they read that or when they come across that stuff.
01:39:21.865 --> 01:39:23.268
Race and the, you know, the...
01:39:25.601 --> 01:39:30.091
Rejection of blacks for the priesthood and temple blessings is not of God.
01:39:31.154 --> 01:39:31.774
Believe me.
01:39:31.795 --> 01:39:32.095
I agree.
01:39:32.777 --> 01:39:33.519
It's not of God.
01:39:33.538 --> 01:39:34.640
I've never believed that.
01:39:34.962 --> 01:39:49.725
I don't believe it now, but I would love to get you back on if Jim is open to this and having a deeper conversation because I think this is, this and the race of the priesthood, I think the two biggest differences challenges and barriers that the church faces.
01:39:50.145 --> 01:40:00.417
And it still hasn't yet, how many years now, 150, 160, 170 years, still with all of the intelligence that the church has, still hasn't figured it out.
01:40:00.698 --> 01:40:01.679
And where is it?
01:40:01.960 --> 01:40:05.404
I think you described it real, it's a complete mess.
01:40:05.644 --> 01:40:06.083
It really is.
01:40:06.125 --> 01:40:13.913
Anyway, I want to thank you so much for coming on and I hope you felt comfortable sharing your thoughts and your feelings.
01:40:14.850 --> 01:40:15.331
Oh, I did.
01:40:15.371 --> 01:40:17.114
I loved our, I loved our conversation.
01:40:17.175 --> 01:40:18.958
Thank you for letting me go off so many times.
01:40:18.979 --> 01:40:20.240
I really appreciate you guys.
01:40:21.342 --> 01:40:22.345
And we appreciate you.
01:40:22.365 --> 01:40:23.287
Thank you very much.
01:40:23.507 --> 01:40:27.355
And we also appreciate all of you spending this time with us, listening to Inside Out.
01:40:27.456 --> 01:40:32.546
Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast to be notified when new episodes drop.
01:40:33.469 --> 01:40:40.229
And, uh, We're just grateful for all of our listeners and for everybody that is part of this discussion.
01:40:41.493 --> 01:40:46.203
And until next time, we will look forward to seeing you on Inside Out.
01:40:46.965 --> 01:40:48.006
And thank you, Michelle.
01:40:48.167 --> 01:40:49.130
And thank you, Ian.
01:40:50.912 --> 01:40:51.414
Thank you, Jim.
01:40:51.555 --> 01:40:52.095
Thank you, Michelle.
01:40:53.037 --> 01:40:54.782
Thank you.
