A Conversation with Gustavo Hernández

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Thank you.
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Recently in Los Angeles, my daughter is pursuing a doctorate in public policy at the University of Southern California, where I went to school.
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I got my undergraduate degree there and spent the weekend down in Los Angeles.
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It was absolutely delightful, a fun trip down memory lane, although it was kind of sad to go to the USC Institute.
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where I was on the LDSSA council and where I actually met my wife.
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We team taught gospel doctrine in the USC ward.
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And the USC ward no longer exists.
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There are no student wards anymore.
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There's no USC ward.
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There's no UCLA ward.
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There was a singles ward in Los Angeles, the LA First ward that no longer exists.
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There's only one singles ward down there in Santa Monica.
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And so that kind of made me sad.
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And I want to have a conversation with Ian about that But that's not what this episode is about.
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One of the things we were able to coordinate, and I actually recorded this in Los Angeles while Ian was in the UK, we had been contacted by Gustavo Hernandez, who has a Spanish-speaking podcast.
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And he wanted to interview both of us for his podcast.
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His podcast will not be released, I think, for another couple of months.
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But he said, my podcast is for Spanish speakers.
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Gustavo is also kindly translating my CES letter reply into Spanish, which just thrills me to no end.
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He's a wonderful person.
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I talked to him for his podcast when The Tabernacle Choir was down in Mexico City.
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And now this is the second time we've been on his podcast.
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But Ian was smart enough to say, hey, can we use this audio for our podcast?
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And Gustavo was gracious enough to agree to that.
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And he also said that we could release it now.
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So you're getting a head start now.
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on a podcast that is going to go down to Central and South America in a couple of months.
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So you're getting a sneak peek at Gustavo's podcast.
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So I'll let Gustavo take it from here.
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Welcome, Jim, and welcome in, and thank you for being here today.
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Thank you for having us.
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And thank you for having us.
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Thank you.
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I was telling our audience that you have a podcast and it talks about some of church, maybe issues, maybe doctrine-wise, maybe recent events and things like that.
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And I think that it plays an important part in interfaith dialogue with people who stay in the church and people who have left.
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But before we talk about that, could you briefly introduce yourselves?
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I'm just going to jump in here.
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I think Ian might be having some connection issues.
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My name is Jim Bennett.
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Ian and I do the Inside Out podcast.
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A lot of people know me for the reply to the CES letter, which, Gustavo, you are translating into Spanish, are you not?
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Yeah, slow-paced, but I'm working on it.
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I'm just very impressed and very flattered that you'd be willing to do that.
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But that's how a lot of folks know me.
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But Ian and I have known each other for over 30 years, about 35 years.
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We were missionaries together in Scotland.
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And I'll let Ian give you a little more about his background.
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Yes, thank you, Jim.
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So Ian Wilkes, just attending this meeting from England, which is where I'm from originally, Yorkshire.
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although we lived this whole time in British Columbia, Canada, joined the church as a convert, again, here in England, when I was 16 years old, through the missionaries, to my displeasure of my family, but joined.
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It was a good experience overall, served a mission, served different callings, different leadership callings, and basically served and devoted, committed my entire life, was very involved in the church, very entrenched in the church, and a few years ago discovered some issues that raised some questions for me and a lot of discomfort and a very challenging experience for me as I discovered those issues.
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And then I left the church.
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I resigned in order to maintain my integrity.
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And then over the years, tried to reconcile my faith, arrived at some position of faith, kept in touch on and off with Jim, and had an idea of creating a podcast and approached Jim.
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And Jim was interested, and we called it Inside Out.
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And the purpose is to help people.
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There's a few other reasons, including it was a podcast that helps me enormously.
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It was like therapy for me in many ways.
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and then decided to watch this with Jim.
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We've done about 35 or 37 podcasts, I think, Jim.
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Maybe more.
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I've not counted them, but quite a few.
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We've got more than that, which is great.
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So really enjoying them.
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We get a lot of great feedback.
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It helps people.
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That's the primary reason we do this.
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And so, yeah, we cover all kinds of topics.
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Jim's on the inside of the church, fully active, you know, faithful, active member of the church.
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I've left, resigned, but still believe there's a great deal of good, goodness in the church and want the church to improve and get better.
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And, you know, that's some of the objectives of the Inside Out podcast.
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Listen, thank you, Jim and Ian.
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And I discovered the podcast a few months ago and ever since then, and even in preparation for this interview, I've been trying to catch up as much as I can.
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And something that I really like about the podcast that I think is pretty unique is the dynamic between the two of you.
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And some people that I know who have done YouTube videos or maybe even debates and they talk about a topic, it's usually the believing member just trying to present all the apologetic answers and then the non-believer sharing all the maybe criticisms to the topic or to those apologetics.
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Your dynamic is pretty different.
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So, For those who have not heard of the podcast or maybe don't know about it, what would you say is the dynamic?
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It's not that.
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Why have you chosen to not do that approach?
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From my perspective, I think that you do not do the church any favors by refusing to talk about the heart issues.
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And there are so many podcasts out there that are adversarial, that are us versus them.
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And so you have the people inside the church that are just spending all of their time berating a straw man of what they think people who have left the church are like.
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And at the same time, you have podcasts out there that are very critical of the church and that don't give anybody any credit if they are actually staying in the church.
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I think...
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I think the adversarial relationship between people in and out of the church is just a massive, massive problem.
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And particularly from the inside, we really don't have the tools to communicate with people on the outside.
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And it's been really interesting to me in my experience.
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You know, when I started sort of entering this world, it was as an apologist talking about the problems with the church.
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And the emails I used to get were from almost entirely from faithful members of the church who thanked me for helping them through a faith crisis.
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But what's happened since I've started having these kinds of conversations, and particularly since Ian reached out and created this podcast, is that I get more emails from people who say things like, you didn't convince me to come back to church, but you helped me to better understand my family and friends who are still in.
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And there is a space out there that we ignore inside the church.
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It's the mixed-faith marriages.
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It's the, how do parents deal with children who have left?
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It's, how do we talk to family and friends who have left?
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And so often, from the inside, we just don't.
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Sometimes those marriages end in divorce.
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Sometimes those kids are ostracized, and sometimes those friends are lost forever.
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And I just think that's a massive tragedy.
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And so what I think, and Ian can correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I think is so valuable about our podcast is that it models how these conversations ought to be taking place.
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Ian is an extraordinarily thoughtful and brilliant and spiritual guy.
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who has left the church.
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And all of the goodness that Ian had when he was in the church is still there.
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He didn't become some kind of transformed, evil, wicked, desperately wanting to sin guy.
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And yet so many of the people who knew and loved Ian when they were interacting with him in the church now have decided that they can't do that anymore.
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And that's a massive tragedy.
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And that's something that I think we need to rectify from the inside.
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And I think building those kinds of bridges is the central purpose of what we're doing.
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Would you agree with that, Ian?
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100%.
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I think you've articulated it really well.
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And just to add to what you've said, you know, you and I, Jim, are from very different backgrounds.
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Your legacy, your history with the church.
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I mean, your grandfather is...
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David O.
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McKay, I think on your mother's side, on your father's side, E.B.J.
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Grant.
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You have extraordinary, deep, spiritual legacy and historical connections with the restoration of the church.
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It's quite extraordinary.
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You're in the United States.
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You've got a lot of experience in the church in the United States.
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Many would argue that the church is an American church.
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Inside, they would argue it's an international church.
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So your background is very different to mine.
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I grew up in a working class coal mining community in Yorkshire, where I am right now.
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Convert to the church.
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Our backgrounds couldn't be more different and distinct.
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And I think that adds to the dynamics of the podcast as well.
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You're active.
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I'm not.
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I think that's an important dimension.
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There are things that you feel strongly about the church, where the church is doing really well, and there are times where we agree and disagree on that, and we do so respectfully.
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And there are times where you feel, Jim, that the church could improve.
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And on those points, we often agree, and sometimes we don't.
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Sometimes I see...
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that the church actually is doing a good thing, a way Jim might think it needs to improve.
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So we have that yin-yang balance in terms of how we understand and address the issues and the concerns that we have and others have in the church.
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One thing that we do agree on, and it's the thread, if you like, that rules through the tapestry of our Inside Out podcast, and that is we believe the church is inherently good.
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We believe, for the most part, it's a good organization.
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It wants to do good.
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It intends to do good.
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The members overall are extraordinarily wonderful, kind, loving, serving people.
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And that's our baseline.
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And we come at the, look at the topics and the issues through that prism of, hopefully, positivity.
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But also, when we look at the issues and concerns and problems with the church, we genuinely, sincerely want the church to improve.
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We even offer ideas, suggestions.
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I don't know if they're ever heard or understood by the church leadership, but we see opportunities for improvement, opportunities for growth.
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But overall, to Jim's point, that very important principle is, and practice of maintaining good relationships with people who are in the faith, have questions, and creating a safe space for members who are active, who have got questions, concerns, doubts.
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We want the church and would encourage the church to create a space where people feel, again, safe, that they're not going to be labeled or misjudged.
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or frowned upon by asking legitimate questions, and also those people who are leaving or in the process of leaving and who have left, for them to do so with dignity and respect and kindness and love.
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There's no reason why we can't have good, positive relationships with the church as people leave.
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We've said a few times that the church invests extraordinary resources to encourage and help people join the church.
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You know, the missionary effort, et cetera, the membership effort, encouraging people to join the church is extraordinary.
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The resources to attract and retain members is significant, but the resources there for helping people navigate their faith and at times leaving the church, there is very little resources.
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It is clear that the church does not want or doesn't make it easy, not for me at least, in my experience, hasn't made it easy for me to leave the church, especially losing out.
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My experience was I'd lost pretty much an entire community within a very short space of time, which is very, very painful for me.
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So the Inside Out podcast is intended to, again, be positive, look at the issues from all angles.
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We have people coming onto the podcast who are active speakers, very committed, very devoted, active members.
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It's great to get their perspective.
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We have people who are navigating the faith.
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We have people who come on who have left the faith, and they give us their perspective.
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And, again, their stories are many positive experiences.
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There are negative experiences.
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It's a mixed bag of different people, different backgrounds with different experiences.
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So we've got a very– I agree.
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I think our Inside Out podcast is very unique.
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It's very distinct.
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And I think it's for those reasons that Jim mentioned and the ones that I've just mentioned as well.
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You know, as you have mentioned that you try to have these conversations, honestly, in my case, for many years, I encountered people in and out of the church that were only interested in debating.
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And as a teenager, I grew up convinced that that was the only type of dialogue that you could have with other faiths or people who have left the church.
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And as I started to see examples of this dialogue online, I was very impressed and I tried to have that.
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Sadly, in my case, at least here in Latin America, I faced a lot of pushback when I've attempted to build breaches.
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So I wanted to ask you about that, about the reception of your podcast.
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Do you know, have you received any feedback from members or non-members?
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Do you think it's having the intended effect?
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Feedback has been universally positive, but a lot of it is from non-members or from former members.
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Although I've had a lot of positive responses from active members as well, But the criticism is almost universally from members.
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It's from the inside.
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And it's a phenomenon.
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I've discussed this with people in church leadership.
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I've discussed this with people who point out that the most difficult and most vicious critics of this kind of a dialogue are almost always active members of the church who consider it their responsibility to be the gatekeepers to determine who is and who is not a faithful member.
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I was just on another podcast, Mormonism with the Murphs, and I was on a panel discussion where we were talking about the McKinney Temple, and I went and read the comments, which you're never supposed to do.
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Never read the comments.
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But I read the comments, and this guy said, well, Jim Bennett, he isn't a faithful member of the church.
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I said, well, you know, until the Tabernacle Choir kicks me out, I think your only options are to cope and seethe.
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And he says, well, you can call yourself whatever you want, but just don't delude yourself into thinking you're a faithful member.
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And I just was reading these comments, and they went back and forth, and they got snarkier and snarkier.
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And I just thought, I don't understand the faith of someone who feels like the Lord wants to be unkind to somebody else, particularly to another member of the church.
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You know, I've had people complain particularly about politics, that they get mad that I'm not politically, you know, American politics are probably going to be a little foreign to a good chunk of your audience.
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But my father was a very prominent Republican politician.
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He was a United States senator for 18 years.
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And I worked in Republican politics professionally.
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And I no longer am a Republican.
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I have left the Republican Party, primarily over Donald Trump.
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I don't want to get political here in terms of arguing my politics.
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What I want to point out is we've talked about political issues on our podcast.
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And we get pushback, again, from active members who insist that if you're not a Republican and if you're not supporting Donald Trump, you can't be a faithful member of the church.
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And there is so much self-appointed gatekeeping, I think is the best word for it, for people who think it's their responsibility to make the church smaller.
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to purge the church of anybody who thinks differently than they do, who may have different political opinions than they do, which is directly contrary to the council.
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Senator Oaks explicitly said, we should never say that a faithful Latter-day Saint can't support a specific party or a specific candidate.
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And they've also warned against straight party voting in the United States.
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So I think we're on pretty solid ground.
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It's not that I'm doing anything that is putting my membership in jeopardy.
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But I am saying things that a certain segment of the church, of the online church, you know, the people who are online are really a whole lot, I think, different from your rank-and-file members that you see every Sunday.
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And most of those people, if you see in real life, are some of the greatest people on earth.
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I think they're lovely, kind, friendly people.
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That's one of the reasons why I stay an active member is I really enjoy the community of the saints.
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But when you go online, the most vicious and the loudest voices are this group of people within the church who I consider to be not just sort of the worst members of the church, but some of the worst people.
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Because they're so unbelievably vicious.
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So that's the reaction.
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The reaction has been almost universally positive, except for that sliver of people in the church who insist on this sort of rigid right-wing orthodoxy in order to be able to accept Jesus.
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accept people as members.
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And I think that's directly contrary, particularly to President Nelson's peacemaker talk and to a lot of the things that we're being taught.
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The church is becoming, the church is a worldwide church.
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And the idea that we're going to sift this based on our ideas of what's politically appropriate and also, you know, what we think a Latter-day Saint ought to think or believe or say is I think that the time has passed where that's even possible anymore.
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So that's my very long-winded answer.
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Ian, do you have anything to add to that?
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Yes.
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I attended a ward here while I've been over in England.
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So I attended church here recently, and that's the first time I've gone to church.
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I attended church in the last five, six years.
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The ward I attended was one of the wards I used to attend when I was here, when I used to live in England.
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And it's a ward that knows me extremely well.
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It's in a town where I was born, and it's the same ward when I was baptized.
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And I know almost all of the members who have known me for 40 years since I first joined the church.
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And one of the lessons, after the sacrament, we had the priesthood lesson.
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And during the lesson, the teacher basically, well, said very clearly that anyone who has left the church or is leaving the church wasn't ever really committed or devoted to Jesus Christ.
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I found that comment insulting, offensive, and hurtful.
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And I spoke up because in my mind, I completely devoted myself to the church in every way.
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Committed, devoted, sacrificed, and did everything I could to be obedient and be a full and faithful member of the church in every way.
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I served diligently, faithfully in all my callings, I'm not trying to say I was perfect at all, but I want to be clear that I gave everything.
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As a full tithe payer, I was a bishop.
00:25:08.271 --> 00:25:13.097
I've been a British president when I was on my mission, and I served in a state presidency.
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And I've worked very closely with senior general authorities, including Elder Oaks and Elder Cook and other general authorities over the year.
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And I've completely, utterly devoted my life to the church until I discovered issues that really concern me.
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During that time, all that time, all that experience and extraordinary number of hours that are countless, I developed what I thought was lifelong, solid, extraordinary deep relationships.
00:25:50.317 --> 00:26:01.019
When I and I left, I learned very quickly how limited those relationships were and how shallow they were.
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I lost a community almost overnight.
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Almost everyone that knew me in my life, who was active in the church, have in some way disconnected or turned away from me and my family.
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At the ward that I attended recently here, Again, these are members who have known me for a long time.
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Sadly, many of those members in the ward didn't come up to me or shake my hand.
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They weren't interested in talking to me.
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I did try to connect with some of them while I was there.
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It was clear from the look on the face, the behavior, their actions, that they weren't really interested in me.
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And they'd given up.
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They knew that I'd left.
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They knew I'd resigned.
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I think there's a difference between resigning and being inactive, in my experience.
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I think if you're inactive and if there's a prospect that you could be reactivated, then the church and the members feel obligated, committed to trying what they can to reactivate people.
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If someone has resigned, like I have, And it was determined, as I am, in that decision, and it was the right choice, I think they've given up.
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And so it's clear in my mind that my relationships, my friendships that I thought were lifelong, were actually conditional upon my activity in the church.
00:27:29.073 --> 00:27:30.273
And that breaks my heart.
00:27:30.334 --> 00:27:31.455
That makes me very sad.
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And I've cried, I've wept over that.
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And it's been a very painful, difficult experience.
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The church...
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hasn't helped.
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It's behavior, it's actions towards me and manifested some of the members that I knew or thought I knew as being quite hurtful.
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Hurtful comments being said about me and my family, quite cruel and untimed and not at all Christ-like, you know, nothing to do with who Christ is or how he lived and certainly these words that I've heard about me and my family wouldn't and didn't come from Christ or or the Spirit.
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I can't imagine Christ saying that about me and my family, sadly.
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And so the church makes it very, I think it's the culture.
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It's in the actual culture of the members to behave like this, because I think if people leave, and when people leave, the church and many of the members, not everyone, I think they take it personally.
00:28:32.346 --> 00:28:37.374
I think they take it as a rejection that when you leave, you reject the members personally.
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And that's not why I left.
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I didn't reject the members.
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But it's interpreted as a rejection of the members.
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So that relationship is now, those relationships, sadly, I think many of them are lost.
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And I repeat, the church, it doesn't make, you can't, it's difficult to leave with your dignity intact.
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And so it makes it very difficult to leave.
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So my experience has been very painful.
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It's been very emotional.
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But we have found peace and happiness.
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We maintain some relationships with members in the church, people who have not given up on us, thank goodness.
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We still see the goodness in us as people.
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We still see that we're inherently good and we still want to serve.
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And we do serve.
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We serve in the community.
00:29:29.147 --> 00:29:29.929
We serve in other ways.
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But it's an area that the church really needs to be thinking about in terms of the doctrine and the policies which affect the culture and how we behave in the church towards people who leave the church.
00:29:46.701 --> 00:29:54.054
So again, notwithstanding, there's a lot of greatness and goodness in the church, and I've not lost that.
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I still believe in that.
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But I also believe that there's opportunities for the church to improve and to change.
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And I think it will.
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I think it will over time.
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You know, the church behaves and responds in different ways under different pressures, different circumstances, you know, media or court case or maybe a reaction from the members.
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You know, it changes, but it changes very slowly over time.
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But I hope and I still believe firmly that the church is becoming better over time and will become safer and And eventually we'll maybe take a more kind of softer approach to, and a more considerate and thoughtful approach to those people who've got questions, who've got, who've decided, you know, to leave and that they can have, they can maintain, you know, a good relationship with, with those people.
00:30:45.719 --> 00:30:47.161
Thank you for sharing that Ian.
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And, you know, I, I listened to your story on your podcast.
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It's the podcast, I don't know, maybe five episodes, which you talk about your story.
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And it really opened my eyes to the experiences some people have who maybe no longer feel welcome to church.
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And when they decide to leave, that experience is not as Christ-like as some would expect.
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Right now, I'm...
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teaching Sunday school for the adults.
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And we've been covering, come follow me right now, we're covering Alma and Alma's, we're covering Korihor, the Antichrist.
00:31:36.134 --> 00:31:38.919
We are talking about the wars.
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And I'm new to that, so I didn't really know how to properly do it.
00:31:46.872 --> 00:31:52.856
But I realized that War is obviously a position to stand because you're trying to kill each other, right?
00:31:54.018 --> 00:32:04.354
And some people say, well, the Korihor is a template for absolutely everyone who doesn't believe in the church.
00:32:05.836 --> 00:32:12.205
The Nephite and Lamanite war are a template for believers and anyone else.
00:32:13.548 --> 00:32:16.913
So I think, as you mentioned, the culture sometimes...
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does emphasize that.
00:32:20.986 --> 00:32:35.909
And I wanted to ask you, Jim, as a member of the church, would you say that maybe this harsh treatment that can come from members of the church, do you think does it come from a purely cultural perspective?
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Or do you think that doctrine-wise, or maybe words from the pulpit, do you think they endorse that behavior even if not on purpose?
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What are your thoughts?
00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:49.891
That's a very good question.
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And the fact that you raised Korahor, I think, is part of the issue, because I describe this as the Korahor template.
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When someone leaves the church, faithful members of the church look at them through a Korahor template.
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When you read the Book of Mormon and you read about the Antichrists that show up in the Nephite civilization, the idea is they're all people who who claim to be just thoughtful, intelligent seekers of truth.
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But when you get down to the crux of it, all of them are lying and all of them are secretly knew there was a God and decided to fight against him.
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Or certainly that was the case with Korihor.
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We get that he struck dumb.
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He admits that, yes, Satan had appeared to him and he'd fallen for Satan.
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and decided to fight against God, but he always knew there was a God.
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And so members read those kinds of stories and decide that everybody who leaves the church is a Coral Horn.
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So when Ian Wilkes says, no, I left the church because I found issues that were very troubling to me, or I left the church for family reasons, I left the church—any kind of reason that would sound legitimate— a lot of members sort of apply that template of Korahor and say, no, secretly, secretly, they're all just leaving because they're wicked and they want to sin and they're terrible people.
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And so I think it is sort of a doctrinal thing, but I think it's a misinterpretation of doctrine because I don't think Korahor...
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Or Nehor or Gadianton or any of the bad guys that you find in the Book of Mormon are representative of everybody who leaves the church.
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That's just ludicrous.
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And it's this Korahor template that creates a wedge.
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between loved ones, between a husband and a wife, one who believes and one who does not, between a husband and a wife and their parents or their children.
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I mean, the messages that we are getting in general conference have been vast improvements over the past, I think, in this regard.
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I keep coming back to President Nelson's peacemaker talk because I think that was the most inspired message a message I've heard in conference in my lifetime.
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And he expressly talked about how important it is to reach out to people, no matter where they are, no matter whether they agree with you or disagree with you.
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He talks about when somebody leaves the church or somebody comes home from a mission early, they do not need your judgment.
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And so I want to see more and more of that.
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But even President Nelson has had some mixed messages in that regard, because the very next conference, he gave a talk where he said, don't take counsel from anyone who doesn't believe.
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And I thought, oh, I think that's just going to be taken by people.
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I mean, if you're in a mixed faith marriage, does that mean if my wife is still an active member of the church, but if she weren't, does that mean that I can't take any counsel from her?
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that I have to ignore her?
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I don't think that's what President Nelson meant, but I think that's what some people heard when they heard that kind of a message.
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So, yeah, there are cultural issues with this, but I do think that there is a doctrinal sticking point, and I think it's that Korihor template.
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Thank you.
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Go ahead, Ian.
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Sorry.
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Yeah, I would agree with that wholeheartedly.
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I was listening to Jim and then I was reading some of the verses in Corrie or reminding myself of that.
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It is, I think when you leave the church, you can't possibly leave the church for any good reason.
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You're either lazy, you're committing sin or you want to commit sin, you want to leave an alternative lifestyle or you really weren't committed or devoted to the church.
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In my life, none of those, in my opinion, at least apply to me.
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You know, when I left the church, as I mentioned earlier, I had some pretty awful things said about me.
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And they said that I'd fallen from a great height.
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And, you know, someone on the state presidency should really...
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I've known better, should have been wiser that I've led my family down the path of unrighteousness.
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That Satan has got my heart.
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And because I held senior callings and received much light in my life and the greatness of the light, because of the greatness of that light and the seniority in the callings and being able to work with leaders of the church because I was relatively senior and I therefore fell from a great height and therefore my punishment will fit my transgression and so I will be found I will not be found in the celestial kingdom or the terrestrial or the celestial but a special place has been reserved for someone like me who experienced a new such great light and have rejected it opposed it.
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And I'm now in league with Lucifer and will be found essentially in the same place as Lucifer's in hell, a special place reserved for someone like me, which is extraordinary.
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I don't believe that, but I still think it's a very insulting and a very offensive gossip, if you like, which I heard within the first few weeks and months that we leave the church.
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And this comes from the doctrine.
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A big part of the culture comes from the doctrine.
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It comes from the policy.
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It comes from the mindset of the leaders.
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It's a historical relationship with the culture.
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The members think quite uniquely, quite distinctly in many ways, and it is the choreo.
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And if you leave...
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and the label that I had been given by some is that, and it's an official label, by the way, I think it was phrased by Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, I can't remember the name of the prophet, but it was phrased by a past leader that I, people like me, are an enemy to the church.
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So there are those people in the church that see me as an enemy, even though I advocate a lot, not always, for the goodness of the church.
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I don't think I'm anti-Mormon.
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I disagree with the church when I disagree with it.
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I criticize it when I think it's right to do so.
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But again, I speak of the values of the church.
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And so even Inside Out podcast is seen by some in the church as being a potential threat to the church.
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And it's sad.
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You've got this very distinct mindset that's very set in some of the members who are very hardcore.
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And if you deviate one inch, show one iota from the official line, then you are not a faithful member.
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There's no room for any nuances or variations.
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You're in or you're out.
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You're with God, you're with the devil.
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There's no gray areas.
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And even if you're in the church, and I've seen this from a rank-and-file level, but also from a leadership position, if there are members who are active and they manifest different levels of faithfulness, i.e.
00:41:06.510 --> 00:41:27.380
hat-tie player, or they come to church in a checked shirt or not the right without a tie, or a lady, a sister comes to the church in trousers, pants, or they're not, they don't conform precisely exactly to how they should look, you know, white shirt, tie, suit, etc.
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And those, sadly, in the church, not everyone, but some, there's an element there that think that those people, they're not living right because they don't dress right, they don't sound right, they're not a full-time payer, and there's something off about them.
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They're not quite...
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as righteous as they should be.
00:41:44.938 --> 00:42:06.483
And so you've got this, I think, this right-wing, hardcore, unyielding expectation, if you like, of how a member should be, not in terms of dress, but how they should behave and how they should speak.
00:42:07.284 --> 00:42:17.838
If you look at the church doctrine, it says, and the teachings of the doctrine, and if you're really immersed in the church, deeply devoted to the church, it influences every aspect of your life.
00:42:18.458 --> 00:42:23.445
It shapes how you think, how you feel, what you say, what you don't say, what kind of questions you ask.
00:42:24.726 --> 00:42:36.077
It influences how you dress, and affects and impacts every aspect of your life.
00:42:36.769 --> 00:42:41.717
from waking up, you know, from your prayers, even the content of your prayers, everything.
00:42:42.016 --> 00:42:52.371
There's no part of your life that the church and religion in general, not just the church, doesn't impact a faithful, devoted member.
00:42:52.391 --> 00:42:57.719
It controls and influences and shapes and informs, I think, every aspect of the life.
00:42:58.179 --> 00:43:11.773
And if you're not church-broke or you're not as conforming to every single aspect of the church, then you are not seen by an element of the church at least to be as committed as devoted.
00:43:12.152 --> 00:43:15.597
And then again, there are different degrees of levels of faithfulness.
00:43:16.197 --> 00:43:21.485
I think it's partly to do with, you know, the doctrine again, like celestial kingdom and the three levels in the celestial kingdom, right?
00:43:22.146 --> 00:43:23.686
And then the terrestrial and the celestial.
00:43:23.807 --> 00:43:35.021
You know, there's space there for everybody apart from someone like me who is, you know, amongst the worst.
00:43:35.101 --> 00:43:37.436
I'm a considered to be an apostate.
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:49.396
An apostate definition is anyone who doesn't follow the doctrine to the letter, not just the spirit, somebody who has to accept every fundamental principle and teaching of the church.
00:43:50.036 --> 00:44:03.056
Even those principles where the church now, the deep teachings where the church now is trying to, quote, disavow, end quote, its position with earlier teachings like race of the priesthood, as an example.
00:44:03.650 --> 00:44:10.702
And so, yes, I think the history, the policies, the doctrine, the choreo example is a really good one.
00:44:11.784 --> 00:44:15.951
And if you look at that scripture in choreo in verse 17, it's interesting.
00:44:16.010 --> 00:44:20.518
And I remember asking a question about this in the state presidency.
00:44:20.798 --> 00:44:22.081
It's in verse 17.
00:44:22.101 --> 00:44:25.608
It says in Alma 30, verse 17, it says this.
00:44:25.728 --> 00:44:29.313
It says, and many more such things did he say unto them, speaking about choreo.
00:44:30.081 --> 00:44:37.193
telling them that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature.
00:44:37.213 --> 00:44:42.380
Therefore, every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength.
00:44:42.981 --> 00:44:45.144
And whatsoever a man did was no crime.
00:44:45.465 --> 00:44:46.067
Well, I don't...
00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:58.025
Never taught that, but I did say that and teach that our performance, our success in life is, in a big way...
00:44:58.849 --> 00:45:06.139
governed by how we manage ourselves and how we prosper in terms of, he says, prospered a conduct genius.
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:07.661
Well, I'm an advocate for education.
00:45:08.481 --> 00:45:09.182
Go get a degree.
00:45:09.583 --> 00:45:12.065
Go learn a trade.
00:45:12.467 --> 00:45:13.487
Become a master of something.
00:45:14.108 --> 00:45:18.875
Develop your intelligence and you can succeed according to that strength.
00:45:18.934 --> 00:45:20.096
And the Lord teaches that.
00:45:20.956 --> 00:45:26.523
So when I taught things like that, I think I was probably labeled as a bit of a choreo as well.
00:45:26.563 --> 00:45:31.677
This was a time when even when I had concerns and doubts about the question.
00:45:32.358 --> 00:45:40.166
And again, I referenced earlier that anyone who's got doubts can't ask questions.
00:45:40.606 --> 00:45:48.516
Once you cross that threshold in the church, this is how I felt, you cannot ask certain questions because you're judged or labeled to be unfaithful.
00:45:49.197 --> 00:45:58.021
I was asking questions in a senior leadership calling and I was pulled aside and told, President Wilkes, that's not the questions that we need to be asking.
00:45:58.842 --> 00:46:00.885
And so I felt unsafe in that calling.
00:46:00.985 --> 00:46:02.246
I can't imagine how others felt.
00:46:02.807 --> 00:46:09.436
And so you sit there, you hear this information, and if you have a question, you have to bite your tongue.
00:46:09.675 --> 00:46:10.737
And I couldn't do that.
00:46:11.478 --> 00:46:15.003
It was killing me mentally, emotionally.
00:46:15.023 --> 00:46:18.126
My mental health was suffering and I couldn't sit there.
00:46:18.887 --> 00:46:19.989
And having read...
00:46:21.538 --> 00:46:22.418
you know, certain facts.
00:46:22.458 --> 00:46:25.902
If you look at the essays, the church has published 12, 14 essays.
00:46:25.943 --> 00:46:33.391
I tried talking about the essays which the church had published and put on the website, albeit they made it difficult at the beginning to find those essays.
00:46:34.012 --> 00:46:37.657
And I remember talking about the race and the priesthood essay that just came out, which I thought was great.
00:46:38.077 --> 00:46:48.349
Finally, the church had acknowledged that past leaders like Brigham Young and others, I think they referred to that, had made mistakes about the doctrine and the position on religion.
00:46:48.545 --> 00:46:53.192
Raising the Priesthood, the church published the essay on that in October, November 2013.
00:46:53.592 --> 00:46:58.717
I tried to talk about that and was quickly and firmly shut down.
00:46:59.398 --> 00:47:10.032
And so it's very difficult to feel that freedom and safety to be able to ask those questions.
00:47:10.371 --> 00:47:18.061
And so I think the church has got a long way to go still to be able to create those safe environments where someone like me would return.
00:47:18.626 --> 00:47:19.947
It's labeled me already.
00:47:20.007 --> 00:47:20.909
I can't change that.
00:47:21.128 --> 00:47:25.172
But I did took control into my own hands and I did resign.
00:47:25.193 --> 00:47:27.615
And I did so on my own terms.
00:47:28.056 --> 00:47:34.563
And similarly, like joining the church when I was 16 was the best decision I ever made at that time.
00:47:34.885 --> 00:47:37.286
The church literally saved me.
00:47:37.327 --> 00:47:42.793
And I will never, I will always acknowledge that and always be deeply grateful for that.
00:47:43.393 --> 00:47:57.503
At the same time, in contrast, another best decision I made was to leave the church in order to make time to maintain my health, my mental health, my family, my integrity, which is so important to me.
00:48:00.641 --> 00:48:03.786
My authenticity, I need to be true to myself.
00:48:03.987 --> 00:48:13.344
And so those are two very significant decisions which appear to be conflicting, but they were the right decisions at different times in my life.
00:48:13.925 --> 00:48:16.068
And now we're in a place of happiness and peace.
00:48:16.168 --> 00:48:18.693
I don't have to deal with these issues.
00:48:19.293 --> 00:48:21.297
If it doesn't make sense, it's probably because it doesn't make sense.
00:48:21.496 --> 00:48:23.800
If something doesn't sound right, it's probably because it isn't right.
00:48:24.449 --> 00:48:30.259
Often, not always, if a doctrine is wrong or a policy is wrong, I can say so.
00:48:30.338 --> 00:48:32.842
And it's often, not always, it's wrong.
00:48:33.103 --> 00:48:34.144
You know, the church is messed up.
00:48:34.846 --> 00:48:36.889
And so, you know, it's run by people.
00:48:37.028 --> 00:48:39.132
It's run by people that make mistakes.
00:48:39.393 --> 00:48:43.960
I don't think God instructs and governs the church leaders in every single thing.
00:48:44.000 --> 00:48:45.061
I think they make mistakes.
00:48:45.161 --> 00:48:46.344
They do make gaffes.
00:48:46.925 --> 00:48:47.606
They screw up.
00:48:47.666 --> 00:48:48.166
They mess up.
00:48:49.148 --> 00:48:51.952
And I think they privately, they know that.
00:48:52.452 --> 00:48:52.914
But they can't.
00:48:53.858 --> 00:48:54.858
say so, obviously.
00:48:54.878 --> 00:48:58.163
They don't want to lose the confidence of the members.
00:48:58.724 --> 00:49:10.998
So I think the church is a long way to go, but I remain hopeful and confident that it will change and improve and it can become a safe place for people like me.
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:13.061
Thank you, Ian.
00:49:13.822 --> 00:49:24.085
And now that you've shared this, both of you, some quotes and some devotionals come to mind.
00:49:25.186 --> 00:49:30.233
A recent ledger took an institute course that was called Navigating a Faith Crisis.
00:49:30.855 --> 00:49:40.226
So each week we read talks and devotionals that talk about people who struggle with faith for different reasons.
00:49:41.588 --> 00:50:09.268
And as I As I mentioned to you guys, one of the main reasons why I'm doing episodes like this is because I think there's a lot of maybe strong arguments, at least in the Spanish content I've encountered, about this topic, about people who leave, about questions about the church and criticisms, historical issues and things like that.
00:50:10.449 --> 00:50:33.896
And I want to share a few of these devotional ideas or teachings and just get to know your thoughts on it, just so we can know if whether what they are talking about is a straw man, good criticism, or what would you add or what would you take from it.
00:50:34.918 --> 00:51:11.545
So the first one that comes to mind is is a devotional i don't remember the name but it was by elder stevenson if i'm not mistaken and at one point of the devotional he talks of the story of a young man who had a question i think he had a question about first vision accounts and then He says, well, I have this friend who works for the church history department, and then he can get to answer your question.
00:51:11.585 --> 00:51:13.327
So they talk about that.
00:51:13.447 --> 00:51:15.690
He gets that issue resolved.
00:51:16.311 --> 00:51:21.856
And then he comes up and says, well, I don't have questions about that, but I have questions about raising the priesthood.
00:51:22.516 --> 00:51:24.519
And then it's like, okay, let me help you with that.
00:51:24.599 --> 00:51:28.143
Here's someone who can give you more information on it.
00:51:28.963 --> 00:51:30.266
And then he said that he...
00:51:30.657 --> 00:51:36.525
kept coming back, and he said, well, now I don't have a problem with either of those two, but I do have a problem with polygamy.
00:51:37.306 --> 00:51:43.315
And at this point, Elder Stevenson stops and says, do you see what happened?
00:51:44.235 --> 00:51:48.681
He chose to become a perpetual questioner.
00:51:48.961 --> 00:51:51.445
I don't remember if that was the correct term.
00:51:52.487 --> 00:51:53.829
But he said that...
00:51:55.297 --> 00:52:03.307
Well, maybe I'm paraphrasing, but instead of being satisfied with those answers and then choose to have faith for the rest, he kept asking questions.
00:52:04.568 --> 00:52:14.400
And the lesson was that you could go into a rabbit hole and it would never stop until you stop asking questions, basically.
00:52:15.282 --> 00:52:22.570
So I wanted to ask, as someone who had questions, what are your thoughts on that idea?
00:52:22.590 --> 00:52:27.869
And also you, Jim, What do you guys think about what Elder
00:52:28.048 --> 00:52:28.590
Stevenson said?
00:52:29.190 --> 00:52:33.838
I mentioned earlier, I think it's really important that we create a safe place for people to ask questions.
00:52:34.659 --> 00:52:36.201
People are interested in history.
00:52:38.123 --> 00:52:41.469
You know, we go to university to become historians.
00:52:41.608 --> 00:52:43.311
You know, we get a master's degree in history.
00:52:43.692 --> 00:52:44.414
We teach history.
00:52:45.916 --> 00:52:49.822
You know, every organization that's been around for a while has a history.
00:52:51.204 --> 00:52:55.009
You know, religious history, natural history, political history.
00:52:55.585 --> 00:53:03.679
general history, you know, the specific disciplines within the area of history.
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:10.190
And I think it's normal and natural for people in the church to have an interest in the history of the church.
00:53:11.594 --> 00:53:14.318
And it's normal and natural for people to have questions.
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:20.949
And it's important that the church acknowledges that the church history is colourful.
00:53:21.793 --> 00:53:23.297
It's not black and white.
00:53:23.376 --> 00:53:24.458
It's certainly not all white.
00:53:24.498 --> 00:53:27.764
You know, the church at times, in my opinion, has tried to whitewash stuff.
00:53:28.666 --> 00:53:34.175
The church has a complex history and a difficult history at certain points.
00:53:35.137 --> 00:53:41.628
And it has failed, in my view, to acknowledge those issues earlier.
00:53:42.273 --> 00:53:55.367
and in a more transparent, open way, and has been pulled and pushed, kicking and screaming into acknowledging issues like race in the priesthood and polygamy, et cetera.
00:53:55.387 --> 00:53:59.972
And even now, these are subjects it doesn't like to talk about.
00:54:00.594 --> 00:54:10.143
If you look at the essays, I would even say it's weaseled its way through some of the language there to try to...
00:54:12.097 --> 00:54:35.813
offset or reduce the impact of the people's opinion or negative opinion on the church by talking about, well, that's how it used to be and polygamy wasn't that bad and it was a different time, a different place and slavery and race and racism, it was a different time and people thought differently, behaved differently.
00:54:36.641 --> 00:54:42.530
And it tries in some ways, in some language in the text, to justify that doctrine or teaching.
00:54:42.570 --> 00:54:46.376
Then later on, it says it disavows with anyone that's got those kind of views.
00:54:47.157 --> 00:54:50.501
And so it doesn't go far enough.
00:54:50.882 --> 00:54:53.324
It is an improvement.
00:54:53.405 --> 00:55:03.079
It is an overall right step in the right direction, a good step in the right direction, where it does at least try to talk about them and address them to some extent.
00:55:03.739 --> 00:55:05.202
It doesn't go far enough, in my opinion.
00:55:05.922 --> 00:55:11.855
And so if it was more transparent, had it been more transparent and open and said, look, we've got issues.
00:55:11.894 --> 00:55:12.577
These are problems.
00:55:12.976 --> 00:55:14.420
These are people we saw in the church.
00:55:14.922 --> 00:55:15.884
They had some answers.
00:55:15.903 --> 00:55:18.990
There was lots of things that they didn't know and understand.
00:55:19.030 --> 00:55:20.393
They lived at this particular time.
00:55:20.414 --> 00:55:21.034
They were wrong.
00:55:21.074 --> 00:55:21.836
They made mistakes.
00:55:22.594 --> 00:55:23.494
Here's the history.
00:55:23.534 --> 00:55:32.106
And I think the church's word, had it given that meat before the milk, as it would say, that people would have left the church.
00:55:32.146 --> 00:55:32.827
And that might be true.
00:55:33.507 --> 00:55:34.469
But now look what's happening.
00:55:34.509 --> 00:55:35.409
You've got the internet.
00:55:35.630 --> 00:55:38.733
You've got people leaking information.
00:55:38.773 --> 00:55:41.416
You've got people like me who've held senior callings.
00:55:41.436 --> 00:55:51.570
You've got people who've held even higher callings than I have, who've seen things that even I haven't seen and are talking about them on podcasts, et cetera.
00:55:52.193 --> 00:55:55.179
And the church has failed to be transparent and accountable.
00:55:55.219 --> 00:55:57.882
And it still struggles with people who've got questions.
00:55:58.182 --> 00:56:04.492
And it's just weird because it's normal and natural for people to ask questions about the church history.
00:56:05.193 --> 00:56:15.570
I would love for the church to have a more balanced view in terms of the topics class to talk about the issue of the church.
00:56:16.130 --> 00:56:23.902
I've met people here who I've known for years, 40 years, in my stake and ward here where I came from, and they don't know about the essays.
00:56:23.922 --> 00:56:26.547
That might shock Jim even here.
00:56:26.588 --> 00:56:33.059
Or they know about them and won't read them because it's not seen as being faithful.
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:36.625
So the church has got a real problem with transparency and accountability.
00:56:37.217 --> 00:56:39.159
And it should encourage questions.
00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:45.766
I think when it's open and honest and it encourages questions and open dialogue and say, yeah, we've made a mistake.
00:56:45.806 --> 00:56:46.347
It was wrong.
00:56:46.407 --> 00:56:47.246
We got that wrong.
00:56:47.887 --> 00:56:54.974
I think that for many generates respect and understanding and said, yeah, we got it wrong.
00:56:55.014 --> 00:57:03.322
But look, because now, you know, we've improved so much and we've come a long way and we were learning and we were growing and some leaders made mistakes.
00:57:03.342 --> 00:57:09.521
So little Dov said that in his talk in October 2013 that, Past leaders have made mistakes.
00:57:10.161 --> 00:57:17.110
But I think the church is still yet to mature to a position where it can encourage questions.
00:57:17.170 --> 00:57:18.471
I mean, that's an interesting word, isn't it?
00:57:18.490 --> 00:57:22.635
Would it encourage questions regarding its history?
00:57:22.655 --> 00:57:24.117
I think we're a long way off that.
00:57:24.557 --> 00:57:30.184
But if you ask too many questions, and certainly too many of the wrong questions, then you become this...
00:57:31.266 --> 00:57:32.407
What was the term that he used?
00:57:32.427 --> 00:57:37.434
This repetitive questioner, this eternal questioner, always asking questions.
00:57:38.235 --> 00:57:39.637
But that's what historians do.
00:57:39.797 --> 00:57:40.617
That's how we learn.
00:57:40.659 --> 00:57:42.681
That's how we learn about the sciences.
00:57:42.721 --> 00:57:45.704
That's how we learn about the engineering that I'm involved in.
00:57:45.744 --> 00:57:49.070
That's how we learn about technology, by asking questions.
00:57:49.690 --> 00:57:57.981
When you shut down questions or you control those questions, then you stifle innovation and you become...
00:57:58.465 --> 00:58:03.172
a little bit cultish and quite dogmatic and quite fixed in a way.
00:58:03.653 --> 00:58:04.614
That's my response to
00:58:06.378 --> 00:58:06.458
that.
00:58:06.538 --> 00:58:20.077
Well, I would jump in and say this particular fireside by Elder Stevenson is reminiscent of an earlier fireside by Elder Rasband.
00:58:20.297 --> 00:58:30.547
No, I'm sorry, Elder Renlin that described a boy who was in a shipwreck and is picked up by an old fisherman.
00:58:31.088 --> 00:58:32.630
Gustavo, do you remember this fireside?
00:58:32.670 --> 00:58:36.353
Yes, in fact, I think it's the same fireside.
00:58:36.393 --> 00:58:37.795
I think I confused him.
00:58:37.994 --> 00:58:39.536
So this is not Elder Stevenson.
00:58:39.577 --> 00:58:40.538
This is Elder Renlund.
00:58:41.239 --> 00:58:44.322
Yes, I think that's him, because I also remember reading about
00:58:44.422 --> 00:58:44.501
that.
00:58:46.664 --> 00:58:48.826
This is sort of a very famous fireside.
00:58:48.865 --> 00:59:03.735
It came on the heels of a talk by Elder Corbridge, who's a Seventy, And he gave a talk where he talked about the idea of primary questions and secondary questions.
00:59:05.297 --> 00:59:09.981
Don't ask the secondary questions until you've answered the primary questions.
00:59:10.101 --> 00:59:13.625
And the primary questions involve, is there a God?
00:59:13.664 --> 00:59:15.746
Is Joseph Smith a prophet?
00:59:16.367 --> 00:59:17.789
Is the Book of Mormon true?
00:59:17.829 --> 00:59:24.054
Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints God's church on earth?
00:59:24.996 --> 00:59:26.878
You know, these are the primary questions.
00:59:27.458 --> 00:59:31.885
And the secondary questions all go away once you answer the primary questions.
00:59:33.067 --> 00:59:46.949
And the problem with that is that Elder Corbridge, with all due respect, doesn't have control over what somebody considers a primary or a secondary question.
00:59:47.411 --> 01:00:01.112
If I'm online and I start reading things about polygamy and I start reading about how Joseph Smith treated his wife, Emma, with regard to taking additional plural wives, and I find that problematic, as many people do.
01:00:01.152 --> 01:00:04.115
And I take that question to somebody.
01:00:04.976 --> 01:00:07.820
You don't get to say to me, that's not a primary question.
01:00:09.981 --> 01:00:11.764
You should be asking these questions instead.
01:00:12.625 --> 01:00:27.829
Also, the primary question, is Joseph Smith a prophet, is not going to be answered positively if my only exposure to Joseph Smith is something that I consider to be deeply problematic.
01:00:28.349 --> 01:00:45.211
So one of the things that I have found as I've sort of started this journey in terms of my own faith and in terms of who I talk to about the church, one of the things I keep hammering home is the idea that we have no choice.
01:00:45.871 --> 01:00:53.322
We have no choice but to hit these every question head on.
01:00:53.730 --> 01:00:56.952
confront all of the difficult questions head on.
01:00:58.014 --> 01:01:04.340
You know, I think we can do that and come out with a stronger faith on the other side.
01:01:05.202 --> 01:01:07.864
But the problem is we refuse to do that.
01:01:07.965 --> 01:01:11.248
We demonize the questioner instead of answering the question.
01:01:12.449 --> 01:01:19.737
And we create not just a faith crisis, we create a trust crisis.
01:01:20.353 --> 01:01:23.918
We create a crisis in trust, particularly among young people.
01:01:24.757 --> 01:01:44.597
You know, if you're a teenager and you've been active in the church all your life, and then you stumble on something on the internet that just discombobulates your world, and then you take it to your church leader and you say, I just found this information about Joseph Smith and I don't know what to do.
01:01:44.637 --> 01:01:49.746
And your leader tells you that's from Satan, How dare you?
01:01:49.947 --> 01:01:51.728
You shouldn't even be asking those questions.
01:01:51.748 --> 01:01:53.512
Ask the primary questions first.
01:01:54.592 --> 01:02:04.945
What happens is you create distance between the institutional church and your leaders and the people who are desperate to stay.
01:02:04.985 --> 01:02:17.521
I've told the story over and over again of my experience when I was at the University of Southern California and I read a copy of The Godmakers, which was the big anti-Mormon book at the time.
01:02:18.434 --> 01:02:20.076
And my faith was shaken.
01:02:20.376 --> 01:02:21.336
I was terrified.
01:02:21.376 --> 01:02:22.137
I didn't know what to do.
01:02:22.177 --> 01:02:31.768
And I took my questions to people who were kind to me and patient with me and helped me work through them together.
01:02:31.809 --> 01:02:51.030
Had I taken those questions to people telling me, you're asking the wrong questions and how dare you have even read anti-Mormon material and you're following Satan and you're a lazy learner, If that had been the message to me, I would not be speaking to you today because I would have left the church as a teenager and be gone.
01:02:52.931 --> 01:03:02.842
We are at a critical moment in the church where all this information is available to anyone who wants it, who looks for it.
01:03:03.302 --> 01:03:04.985
It's just a Google click away.
01:03:05.005 --> 01:03:18.744
And we can't respond to it by waving it away, telling people not to look at it, or if they do look at it, telling them that the problem is them rather than their concern.
01:03:19.125 --> 01:03:20.947
We don't have that luxury.
01:03:21.088 --> 01:03:33.483
I think we did have that luxury when I was a missionary 35 years ago when there was no internet and there was no real way for anybody beyond a serious scholar to find out issues like this.
01:03:34.585 --> 01:03:37.367
But we don't live in that world anymore.
01:03:37.387 --> 01:03:45.277
And so Elder Rasband, I keep confusing Elder Rasband and Elder Rendland, It was Elder Rendland who gave the fireside, Gustavo, that you're referencing.
01:03:46.378 --> 01:04:00.313
That fireside, it was equally frustrating to me because the entire model, the entire metaphor of the boy who comes into the fishing boat.
01:04:00.333 --> 01:04:02.574
The fishing boat's a little beat up.
01:04:03.295 --> 01:04:04.677
He's given a canteen.
01:04:04.737 --> 01:04:06.478
What he really wants is Perrier.
01:04:06.518 --> 01:04:08.981
He's given a canteen of rusty water.
01:04:09.474 --> 01:04:15.824
And so rather than do that, this stupid kid just jumps over the side of the boat and gets eaten by a shark.
01:04:16.565 --> 01:04:19.429
He didn't say he gets eaten by a shark, but there was an illustration.
01:04:20.010 --> 01:04:27.840
There was these cartoons, and there's this illustration of the kid, and as he jumps out, you can see a shark fin out in the distance.
01:04:28.583 --> 01:04:38.657
And I remember watching that and going, this whole metaphor is designed to demonize the questioner, the person at fault.
01:04:39.010 --> 01:04:41.673
The problem is you asking questions.
01:04:41.773 --> 01:04:42.815
That's the problem.
01:04:42.875 --> 01:04:46.039
The problem isn't anything you're asking questions about.
01:04:46.079 --> 01:04:49.945
That can be entirely dismissed.
01:04:49.965 --> 01:04:51.306
You're asking the wrong questions.
01:04:51.346 --> 01:04:52.106
You shouldn't do this.
01:04:53.088 --> 01:05:02.400
And that is, I think, the approach that will continue to drive young people away from the church.
01:05:03.362 --> 01:05:26.789
Because over and over and over again, You know, the young people that are leaving, they're not like Ian, they're not like me, in that, you know, if I were to leave the church, it would be a wrenching, you know, it would be ripping out just the lifetime of roots and heritage from generations, and it would just be gut-wrenching and difficult.
01:05:27.411 --> 01:05:28.833
And I think that's exactly it.
01:05:28.853 --> 01:05:35.402
I mean, Ian doesn't have that same kind of, you know, generational legacy, but he has a lifetime of devotion.
01:05:36.034 --> 01:05:39.239
And it was such a wrenching and difficult process for him.
01:05:39.278 --> 01:05:44.666
The young people who are leaving are just shrugging the church off.
01:05:45.487 --> 01:05:48.172
They're just, no, I'm sorry, this isn't for me, thanks.
01:05:49.293 --> 01:05:59.509
And no amount of demonizing them, no amount of telling them that they're spoiled brats who just want Perrier water when they've just been saved from being shipwrecked.
01:06:00.931 --> 01:06:05.538
None of that kind of shame and fear is going to keep them in the church.
01:06:05.985 --> 01:06:10.231
and in fact is going to eliminate trust in the church and drive them away.
01:06:11.271 --> 01:06:14.476
So that's where we find ourselves.
01:06:15.496 --> 01:06:23.666
Elder Renlund has given some of the most wonderful talks and conference that I have heard.
01:06:23.706 --> 01:06:26.648
He's a lovely, lovely human being.
01:06:26.668 --> 01:06:29.112
He is a devoted disciple of Christ.
01:06:29.311 --> 01:06:30.713
He is an apostle of the Lord.
01:06:30.753 --> 01:06:37.248
I also think that his approach here is not one that is proving effective.
01:06:37.989 --> 01:06:40.552
Because this was given a few years back now.
01:06:40.592 --> 01:06:42.454
I think this is at least three years ago.
01:06:43.536 --> 01:06:51.744
And you're still seeing this kind of departure from the rising generation.
01:06:52.746 --> 01:07:01.358
And it's an honor departure that is being stopped by these kinds of metaphors and these kinds of lectures That, hey, the problem is you.
01:07:01.378 --> 01:07:02.380
The problem is you.
01:07:02.420 --> 01:07:04.842
You just aren't asking the right questions.
01:07:05.242 --> 01:07:11.929
You just aren't accepting the church and embracing the church.
01:07:13.130 --> 01:07:15.413
And the response is not combat.
01:07:15.893 --> 01:07:17.574
The response is, oh, really?
01:07:17.795 --> 01:07:18.996
Well, no thanks.
01:07:20.016 --> 01:07:20.677
And off they go.
01:07:20.697 --> 01:07:23.599
And they leave the church and they don't look back.
01:07:24.581 --> 01:07:26.443
And that's what's terrifying.
01:07:26.523 --> 01:07:36.434
That's, I think, the biggest challenge we have in terms of building the kingdom going forward is, okay, this doesn't work, guys.
01:07:36.775 --> 01:07:41.443
It just does not work to shame the people who leave, to shame the people who question.
01:07:42.403 --> 01:07:53.159
We have to take a different approach at helping people confront their doubts and answering their questions with respect and meeting them where they are.
01:07:53.840 --> 01:08:02.125
You know, if somebody has a question and you come back and say you're asking the wrong question, I would say to the Well, it's the right question for me.
01:08:02.164 --> 01:08:10.916
And if you don't have an answer for me, then I'm going to go somewhere else, and I'm certainly not going to come back to you, and I'm not going to come back to the church.
01:08:11.838 --> 01:08:30.625
So that's the challenge we have, and that's the approach that I think Ian and I are attempting, is to just confront all these issues head on, follow the facts wherever they may lead us, and take people where they are.
01:08:30.664 --> 01:08:36.551
You know, when we have people on our podcast, some are, they run the gamut.
01:08:37.953 --> 01:08:46.362
People who have left the church, people that are sort of lukewarm about the church, people who are still fully invested in the church and love the church.
01:08:47.523 --> 01:08:51.447
You need to accept people where they are, and you have no choice.
01:08:51.466 --> 01:08:52.908
The church has no choice.
01:08:53.368 --> 01:08:59.359
We have no choice but to confront all of the difficult issues that are driving people away.
01:09:00.320 --> 01:09:00.881
Thank you, Jim.
01:09:00.900 --> 01:09:15.337
And now that we've talked a little bit about this, it reminds me of one of your newest episodes, in which you, Jim, read from a book that you're working on.
01:09:15.378 --> 01:09:17.461
Could you tell us a bit about that?
01:09:18.681 --> 01:09:19.042
Sure.
01:09:19.063 --> 01:09:19.143
Yeah.
01:09:19.804 --> 01:09:24.630
Ian was traveling, and we couldn't connect, and so I ended up just sort of reading this.
01:09:25.217 --> 01:09:28.502
finished a draft of this book, and I'm not quite sure where to go with it.
01:09:29.724 --> 01:09:33.948
It's called Fallibility, a Love Story.
01:09:35.872 --> 01:09:46.345
And I think that the central problem that we have in the Church at the moment is the false doctrine of prophetic infallibility.
01:09:47.146 --> 01:09:52.753
The old joke is that Catholics teach that the Pope is infallible, but Catholics don't believe it.
01:09:53.506 --> 01:09:57.993
Mormons teach the prophet isn't infallible, but Mormons don't believe it.
01:09:59.135 --> 01:10:01.498
We do not believe in infallible leaders.
01:10:02.100 --> 01:10:04.122
We do not believe in infallible scripture.
01:10:04.783 --> 01:10:11.514
We do not believe that infallibility and perfection are part of the mortal experience.
01:10:12.336 --> 01:10:21.250
And so I try to frame this in my book as a feature, not a bug, that this was the point.
01:10:21.953 --> 01:10:23.837
This was the purpose.
01:10:23.917 --> 01:10:28.363
We came to earth specifically to make mistakes.
01:10:28.543 --> 01:10:35.636
We were in a situation before we came to this earth where we were in the presence of God at all times.
01:10:36.296 --> 01:10:41.185
And so, therefore, we didn't have to make any decisions for ourselves.
01:10:41.225 --> 01:10:43.769
We didn't have to navigate good versus evil.
01:10:44.529 --> 01:10:45.692
We didn't have to struggle.
01:10:45.731 --> 01:10:47.073
We didn't have to do anything.
01:10:47.810 --> 01:10:52.957
And each of us essentially, we took the place of Adam and Eve.
01:10:52.976 --> 01:11:03.451
I mean, this is the thing, I frame it as, you know, when we go through the temple, for so much of my life, I had thought of Adam and Eve as, okay, this is a historical story.
01:11:04.252 --> 01:11:06.295
This is a story of the first people.
01:11:06.335 --> 01:11:14.185
And it's become more and more apparent to me that, no, this is a story about me or about you.
01:11:14.658 --> 01:11:18.261
But every individual, we're supposed to liken ourselves to Adam and Eve.
01:11:19.063 --> 01:11:22.627
And we all lived in the garden, in the presence of God.
01:11:22.667 --> 01:11:40.185
And we all deliberately chose, just like Adam and Eve, to leave the presence of God and experience sin, experience pain, experience separation from God, in order for us to be able to learn and grow in the process.
01:11:40.506 --> 01:11:44.069
Fallibility is the very central essence.
01:11:45.282 --> 01:11:48.364
of what the mortal experience is supposed to be.
01:11:48.404 --> 01:11:53.730
And agency and infallibility are wholly incompatible.
01:11:54.231 --> 01:11:58.235
You cannot have agency and be infallible.
01:11:59.016 --> 01:12:04.403
And at no point is anybody's agency extracted from them.
01:12:05.042 --> 01:12:06.324
That includes prophets.
01:12:07.105 --> 01:12:17.640
I mean, when people talk about agency and prophets, they say, oh yeah, prophets can have bad breath, and prophets can forget your birthday, and prophets can do these things.
01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:19.703
It's like, well, yeah, they can do all those things.
01:12:20.224 --> 01:12:25.069
They can also make mistakes, even when they're standing at a pulpit and speaking.
01:12:25.109 --> 01:12:34.198
And that and all, astafar, no, no, no, no, no, the prophet will never lead you astray, whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:41.546
Both of those statements have been wildly taken out of context at every level of the church.
01:12:42.688 --> 01:12:47.018
And they do not guaranteed prophetic infallibility.
01:12:47.779 --> 01:13:04.784
So the book is designed to, the minute you can say, you can allow for the possibility that something in church history that is troubling was a mistake, you suddenly have a sustainable faith.
01:13:05.546 --> 01:13:10.854
For instance, I can quote to you things that'll turn your hair white, as white as my hair, I guess.
01:13:11.394 --> 01:13:15.139
that Brigham Young said on the subject of race.
01:13:15.618 --> 01:13:19.764
Brigham Young said horrifically terrible racist things.
01:13:19.844 --> 01:13:28.494
He talked about the idea that if you mix your blood with the seed of Cain, the law of God, which will always be so, is death on the spot.
01:13:29.355 --> 01:13:32.099
Well, that's garbage, and we disavowed that as garbage.
01:13:33.140 --> 01:13:40.569
But if you can't say, well, jeez, Brigham Young was just really wrong.
01:13:41.057 --> 01:13:41.878
on that point.
01:13:42.420 --> 01:13:44.182
He got it wrong.
01:13:44.403 --> 01:13:52.355
If you can't say that, then you have to contort yourself into all kinds of mental pretzels to figure out some way to justify it.
01:13:52.856 --> 01:13:56.182
And fewer and fewer members of the church are willing to do that.
01:13:57.243 --> 01:14:01.992
Members of the church look at that and go, I don't want to stand with that kind of a sentiment.
01:14:02.752 --> 01:14:15.229
I mean, I've been taught Brigham Young as a prophet, and Brigham Young brought the saints west and You know, he held the church together after Joseph Smith died, and he did a lot of really remarkable, wonderful things.
01:14:16.591 --> 01:14:28.930
But if I also have to say that he was perfect, and that he was inerrant, and that when he spoke about race, that he was reflecting the mind of the will of the Lord, and that the Lord is a racist, not Brigham Young.
01:14:29.572 --> 01:14:33.537
If I have to do that, I'm not going to do that.
01:14:34.274 --> 01:14:43.046
And the rising generation, particularly, that aren't as invested in the church, just say, I don't want to be involved in a church that tries to pretend that's okay.
01:14:44.149 --> 01:14:49.136
And so the church would be so much healthier if we'd be willing to admit our mistakes.
01:14:49.697 --> 01:15:00.333
And the good news about it is that the church's theology, the church's doctrine, allows for it in ways that other Christian groups do not.
01:15:01.090 --> 01:15:03.033
We have a theology.
01:15:03.073 --> 01:15:04.155
We have teachings.
01:15:04.195 --> 01:15:09.204
The restored gospel is rooted in the idea of agency.
01:15:09.265 --> 01:15:13.192
And agency and fallibility go hand in hand.
01:15:13.311 --> 01:15:14.994
You can't have one without the other.
01:15:16.197 --> 01:15:23.069
So my book is an attempt to frame the restored gospels.
01:15:23.841 --> 01:15:27.346
as a love story about fallibility.
01:15:27.386 --> 01:15:32.613
It shows God's love for each of his children that he allows us to make mistakes.
01:15:32.734 --> 01:15:39.582
We came here in order to make mistakes, and he provided a Savior for us to pay for that education.
01:15:39.762 --> 01:15:49.697
And when you think how dearly Jesus paid for our spiritual education, you start to recognize just how important fallibility really is.
01:15:50.217 --> 01:15:50.377
So,
01:15:53.025 --> 01:15:53.707
Thank you, Jim.
01:15:54.006 --> 01:16:03.597
And, you know, the reason why I asked you about that is because I think that, at least in my case for believers, that opens the idea to even be willing to talk.
01:16:04.899 --> 01:16:13.349
And I also don't want to sort of show that interfaith dialogue is only talking about what the church does wrong.
01:16:13.389 --> 01:16:17.054
I think that you, Ian, for example, you have emphasized that it's a bit of both.
01:16:17.533 --> 01:16:19.716
When it does right, when it does bad.
01:16:20.677 --> 01:16:23.163
And I have this question for you, Ian.
01:16:24.204 --> 01:16:45.947
When it comes to having dialogue, when it comes to maintaining relationships to nurture them, on the other side of the spectrum, people who have left the church, people that I know, I've heard them share a concern, and I wanted to hear your thoughts on this.
01:16:46.967 --> 01:17:05.717
And the concern is basically that that they believe that the harm that the church has done in different areas for different reasons at different times is just too much for me to even want to try to have a sort of dialogue.
01:17:07.060 --> 01:17:18.717
I know there's pain behind that, and I want to approach that respectfully, but I wanted to ask you, do you think that interfaith dialogue is always necessary?
01:17:19.426 --> 01:17:29.501
And what would you say to someone who has that concern that keeps them from maybe maintaining relationships or having dialogue?
01:17:32.586 --> 01:17:33.828
Well, that's an interesting question.
01:17:36.431 --> 01:17:48.029
People who serve in the church enjoy extraordinary relationships across all the rank and file relationships in the church, across leadership and leadership.
01:17:48.162 --> 01:17:50.625
The church is an extraordinary vehicle for service.
01:17:52.327 --> 01:17:58.274
There's no way I would have been able to serve or extend my...
01:17:58.314 --> 01:18:04.122
implement my interest in serving others without the church.
01:18:04.243 --> 01:18:07.686
Not to that extent, you know, serving as a merchant, serving as a bishop.
01:18:08.809 --> 01:18:12.894
And so these are, you know, relationships are forged over many years.
01:18:13.295 --> 01:18:14.515
You know, when you're a bishop or...
01:18:16.002 --> 01:18:24.109
a leader in the church, members entrust the bishop with some of the most personal and often the most difficult personal issues.
01:18:25.391 --> 01:18:32.479
And they talk and open up to someone they can trust, hopefully, and they share their innermost feelings and thoughts.
01:18:33.199 --> 01:18:34.220
They shed tears.
01:18:34.240 --> 01:18:35.542
They express love.
01:18:37.484 --> 01:18:56.796
A bishop or a calling like that gets a glimpse into the church depths of one's soul, where they open up and share those often very profound and very personal, and again, I say at times, very difficult, problematic experiences.
01:18:57.457 --> 01:19:02.283
And the job of the bishop is to help, to love, to serve, even though the bishop might not have all the answers.
01:19:03.085 --> 01:19:09.054
Those experiences forge extraordinary relationships on a very, very personal level.
01:19:10.177 --> 01:19:14.505
And so you get intertwined with the church through those relationships.
01:19:15.907 --> 01:19:19.492
Jim's referenced earlier, you know, legacy, generational legacy, et cetera.
01:19:19.532 --> 01:19:29.728
And those relationships, church teaches us, of course, in the temple that the hearts of the fathers will return to the children and the children's hearts will return to the fathers.
01:19:29.768 --> 01:19:34.095
You know, these are generational relationships, not just current relationships.
01:19:34.194 --> 01:19:37.219
And they're deeply networked and connected.
01:19:37.238 --> 01:19:38.942
The capillaries extend together.
01:19:39.042 --> 01:19:42.926
across generations that extend across wards and stakes.
01:19:44.028 --> 01:19:59.865
And so when people have questions or they want to leave or they want to have more of an open dialogue, a respectful dialogue, their expectation for many of them is that they hope that they're able to do that.
01:19:59.905 --> 01:20:15.500
Jim referenced earlier that he was able to go talk to people who loved him and was kind to him and was respectful and patience, tolerance, and understanding, etc., and the questions that Jim had, that wasn't my experience.
01:20:16.400 --> 01:20:17.502
My experience was opposite.
01:20:17.542 --> 01:20:21.007
So it was like electric shock.
01:20:21.087 --> 01:20:29.301
I quickly was shocked into the painful realization that I couldn't have those kind of interfaith questions.
01:20:30.181 --> 01:20:40.364
And so I saw very quickly, early on in the process, those relationships that were hemorrhaging, that I was going to lose those relationships.
01:20:40.484 --> 01:20:46.934
And I saw that, as I say, very early on in the process that I went through.
01:20:47.895 --> 01:20:55.726
But even though I saw the risk of losing those relationships and the pain that that would come from those, I still couldn't...
01:20:57.869 --> 01:21:00.252
My body, my mind, my whole soul...
01:21:01.250 --> 01:21:09.921
Couldn't and wouldn't, even if I tried, turn away from wanting to ask questions and wanting to know the truth and get to the facts, get to the bottom of things.
01:21:10.060 --> 01:21:12.203
It's just how I'm made.
01:21:12.323 --> 01:21:14.225
I can't live in ignorance.
01:21:14.487 --> 01:21:16.729
I want to live authentically and be myself.
01:21:17.489 --> 01:21:20.234
If I have questions, these are important questions to me.
01:21:20.274 --> 01:21:25.079
They might not be important questions to other people or to the church, but they're important to me, and Jim talked about that.
01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:29.706
And, you know, I...
01:21:30.881 --> 01:21:42.774
It just was painful because I didn't really have very many people to turn to.
01:21:42.795 --> 01:21:43.615
It wasn't safe.
01:21:44.457 --> 01:21:55.770
I could see that I was going to lose these relationships, almost all of them at some point, yet I still continued and I asked the questions, did my own research.
01:21:56.514 --> 01:22:29.229
found the facts and eventually that led me to asking questions more questions and coming across in my opinion some very disturbing things and that led me out of the church and the fact that they couldn't answer couldn't or wouldn't answer the questions was not helpful you know that certainly was made it easier actually in some ways in some ways it was hard to leave the church in other ways it was easy because of the behavior of some of the members and the reluctance to have a you know mature, constructive dialogue on some of these things.
01:22:29.871 --> 01:22:38.762
And so being able to talk about, you know, interfaith questions and other, all kinds of questions, that just became, it just became impossible.
01:22:38.783 --> 01:22:55.367
I remember one time I was in church and I'm going to say presidency and I made a preacher lesson and I asked a question about, I think it was the, race in the priesthood, actually.
01:22:55.608 --> 01:23:10.623
And again, I was, even the looks and the behavior, I got these flowers from some of the leaders in the meeting, and even a brother actually shook his head that I shouldn't be asking those questions.
01:23:11.064 --> 01:23:19.253
And then after the meeting, there was three or four brethren approached me, and it was a very difficult question.
01:23:19.293 --> 01:23:25.632
My wife, who was looking on in the corridor, could see my I just looked flustered.
01:23:25.653 --> 01:23:28.537
I looked really uncomfortable.
01:23:28.557 --> 01:23:44.341
And I was surrounded by these brethren who were grilling me, actually, and condemning me and criticizing me and were so disappointed in the fact that I shouldn't be asking those kind of questions.
01:23:44.402 --> 01:23:47.246
And even saying that I should be released from the calling.
01:23:48.146 --> 01:23:52.173
So the church has got a long way to go.
01:23:53.090 --> 01:23:56.978
It needs to– it's not just enough to teach from the pulpit.
01:23:57.819 --> 01:24:05.957
I think you have to have some brave leader there to stand up and talk about the things openly in the spirit of which Jim spoke earlier.
01:24:06.939 --> 01:24:08.180
Just be a leader.
01:24:08.722 --> 01:24:15.914
President Nelson, in one talk, gives us some encouragement, and then another one– gives a different message.
01:24:16.154 --> 01:24:17.356
And so we need consistency.
01:24:17.377 --> 01:24:25.925
And we also need to see that at the stake in the world level to help people and support people.
01:24:26.546 --> 01:24:34.895
And I think I would end on this note as well is think about Jesus Christ.
01:24:35.435 --> 01:24:35.876
Who is he?
01:24:38.257 --> 01:24:39.319
What kind of person was he?
01:24:39.359 --> 01:24:41.561
How did he show love?
01:24:42.369 --> 01:24:43.270
Was he patient?
01:24:43.490 --> 01:24:44.292
Was he kind?
01:24:44.332 --> 01:24:45.373
Was he tolerant?
01:24:46.215 --> 01:24:49.018
Would he be open to listening to questions?
01:24:49.759 --> 01:24:51.520
Would he do his best to answer the questions?
01:24:51.640 --> 01:24:53.444
Perhaps he doesn't have all the answers himself.
01:24:53.524 --> 01:24:55.445
I think he probably would, or many of them.
01:24:56.346 --> 01:25:02.774
But how would he behave with somebody who's got questions or doubts or concerns, who is struggling?
01:25:03.456 --> 01:25:04.216
What would he say?
01:25:04.237 --> 01:25:05.177
What would he do?
01:25:06.238 --> 01:25:08.061
How would he show love and kindness?
01:25:08.738 --> 01:25:12.462
You know, as a church, you know, we carry his name, Church of Jesus Christ.
01:25:13.823 --> 01:25:21.751
You know, the scriptures, Jesus Christ is in every aspect of the church, in every level, I believe, or at least most levels.
01:25:22.412 --> 01:25:36.006
And we make all these claims and profess all these things to be, you know, the church makes that very bold claim in section 130 with that it is the only true and living church upon the face of the earth.
01:25:37.666 --> 01:25:39.488
speaking collectively, not individually.
01:25:39.528 --> 01:25:43.713
But that's quite a bold claim, which I don't think the church has actually repeated for quite a while.
01:25:44.033 --> 01:25:44.755
But it's still in there.
01:25:44.774 --> 01:25:45.456
It's not changed.
01:25:46.117 --> 01:25:55.809
And so it professes to, you know, President Nelson is the only mouthpiece on the earth who speaks for the Lord, not just for the saints, but for the entire world.
01:25:56.210 --> 01:25:57.150
That's quite a bold claim.
01:25:57.992 --> 01:26:07.043
And so, you know, if that's true, the question should be asked, you know, well, what's Christ's role in all of these issues.
01:26:07.425 --> 01:26:26.895
What does he think about the church's behavior on its finances, on covering up or influencing child sex abuse claims, or hiding, doctoring, or concealing this, and not being transparent on this, and not creating safe places for people to ask questions, and a myriad of other questions and issues.
01:26:27.376 --> 01:26:28.837
What's Christ's position on this?
01:26:28.978 --> 01:26:33.284
What does he think about all this, and how would he respond and behave to these issues?
01:26:34.210 --> 01:26:36.993
I don't know him, you know, Jesus Christ.
01:26:37.073 --> 01:26:38.354
Personally, I have a testimony of him.
01:26:38.414 --> 01:26:40.457
I know that he, I believe that it's real.
01:26:40.478 --> 01:26:53.935
I have my own relationship with him, but I do believe that he is an extraordinary individual of goodness and kindness and love and patience and understanding.
01:26:53.975 --> 01:27:04.389
And I just don't think, I think he would be uncomfortable with some of the words and the actions of some of the leaders of the church and parts of the cults of the church.
01:27:04.729 --> 01:27:12.979
And I think he would be, I can't speak for him, of course, but I think he would be advocating, you know, more transparency, you know, more accountability.
01:27:13.000 --> 01:27:15.662
And I think he would be angry, actually.
01:27:16.042 --> 01:27:33.893
You know, would he go as far as that he did, you know, when he went into the temple, when the Pharisees and Sadducees were in the temple and using the temple, the Holy Temple back then in in those sacred places for trading and for market purposes and selling this and selling that.
01:27:33.993 --> 01:27:38.518
And would he behave towards the church in that way?
01:27:38.557 --> 01:27:39.238
Perhaps he would.
01:27:39.279 --> 01:27:39.658
I don't know.
01:27:39.679 --> 01:27:43.342
Would he be so displeased that he would shake things up?
01:27:43.363 --> 01:27:48.448
So I don't believe that this is the only true church upon the face of the earth at all.
01:27:48.488 --> 01:27:49.791
I think there's many paths to God.
01:27:49.810 --> 01:27:51.332
I think...
01:27:53.409 --> 01:27:55.351
The church is influenced by inspiration.
01:27:55.591 --> 01:28:02.139
And again, when it gets it right and it's doing really well and behaving well and just being kind and loving, absolutely.
01:28:02.219 --> 01:28:09.447
It's one of the best religious, organized religions on the earth, for sure.
01:28:10.047 --> 01:28:15.012
But I think the church has lost its way in lots of ways, not in every way.
01:28:15.052 --> 01:28:21.720
And I think it needs to remind itself of its relationship with Christ, the nature of Christ.
01:28:22.641 --> 01:28:59.908
And how would christ respond you know to people with these concerns and issues and i think it has um at times i think it forgets that so i would i would close my messages on them you know i think that relationship between member less active resigned member it should be built on the principles of of what christ taught love understanding patience, respect, agree to disagree, integrity, forgiveness, etc.
01:29:00.108 --> 01:29:15.484
And I think if the church moved more effectively in that direction and actually practiced what it preached and was kinder, more loving towards people that had left, it would have so much more respect and it would be greater than it is.
01:29:15.505 --> 01:29:17.006
It would be even greater than it is right now.
01:29:17.046 --> 01:29:23.783
And so that would be, you know, that's my That's my parting message, or I guess my closing remarks to your question.
01:29:26.065 --> 01:29:26.707
Thank you, Ian.
01:29:27.587 --> 01:29:50.322
And the question for Hugh, it would be pretty much the same, but I think the only thing I would add is that sometimes I've heard a few members of the church, I've been guilty of thinking this myself at some point, asking what's the point of interfaith dialogue if at the end of the day we will still think differently?
01:29:50.881 --> 01:29:53.425
we will still have disagreements.
01:29:54.166 --> 01:30:04.060
So sometimes people say that having these conversations are either a waste of time if we're not trying to defend the church or convert.
01:30:05.381 --> 01:30:08.905
What would you say to that, and what would be your concluding thoughts?
01:30:10.729 --> 01:30:21.947
The idea of interfaith dialogue is one that I don't know if the church is ready for it, Does that make sense?
01:30:24.270 --> 01:30:25.252
Well, we were on our missions.
01:30:27.855 --> 01:30:34.867
There was a big newspaper in the UK, I think the Sunday Times or something.
01:30:35.707 --> 01:30:36.349
Ian, do you remember that?
01:30:36.390 --> 01:30:39.094
The insert that we were given that hand out to people?
01:30:40.322 --> 01:30:44.827
It was the Radio Times, the gentleman, the brother on the beans, the can of beans,
01:30:44.987 --> 01:30:45.127
I think
01:30:45.146 --> 01:30:45.186
it
01:30:45.207 --> 01:30:45.266
was.
01:30:45.327 --> 01:30:48.529
Yeah, the guy sitting in front of all the beans, he was Elder Grant's father.
01:30:48.871 --> 01:30:51.052
Elder Grant, that's it, that's it, yeah.
01:30:51.193 --> 01:31:03.805
Yeah, so there was this insert in a big newspaper that we were instructed to pass out to everybody, and it turned them off, actually, because it said nice things about Margaret Thatcher, who was not popular in Scotland at the time.
01:31:05.127 --> 01:31:10.273
But at the end of it, It talked about interfaith dialogue.
01:31:10.332 --> 01:31:11.595
I've always remembered this.
01:31:12.815 --> 01:31:27.695
And this spokesman for the church in the UK said, when you have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, you don't have a mandate to horse trade it away.
01:31:27.735 --> 01:31:32.462
So the idea was, no, we don't want to engage in interfaith dialogue.
01:31:32.483 --> 01:31:34.725
We don't want to engage in ecumenical dialogue.
01:31:35.185 --> 01:31:35.988
We're right.
01:31:36.028 --> 01:31:37.670
Everybody else is wrong.
01:31:38.529 --> 01:31:41.833
So what's there to talk about?
01:31:42.635 --> 01:31:46.578
It's essentially been the attitude of the church for most of my life.
01:31:47.500 --> 01:31:50.222
I think we're starting to see that soften.
01:31:51.024 --> 01:32:20.122
I don't think we're very far down that particular road, because the things that I've been talking about, that Ian's been talking about, are less interfaith, but more, okay, how do we deal with people in the faith or people who have left the faith, but are still sort of part of the Latter-day Saint community, if only culturally or through their heritage or whatever.
01:32:20.162 --> 01:32:23.787
But the idea that, okay, well, how do we relate to Catholics?
01:32:24.847 --> 01:32:27.350
How do we relate to Muslims?
01:32:28.391 --> 01:32:29.653
How do we relate to people?
01:32:29.672 --> 01:32:46.462
I mean, not just other Christians, but in a worldwide church, Islam is a massive religion with, I think, a quarter of the world's population as its adherents.
01:32:47.404 --> 01:32:48.666
How do we relate to Judaism?
01:32:48.725 --> 01:32:51.448
How do we relate to the Eastern religions like Buddhism?
01:32:52.670 --> 01:32:57.555
We haven't even started to really have those kinds of conversations yet.
01:32:59.478 --> 01:33:02.761
I think those conversations can be very helpful.
01:33:03.234 --> 01:33:05.157
They certainly have been in my life.
01:33:05.256 --> 01:33:11.448
I remember when I went to the University of Southern California, one of my best friends was an evangelical Christian.
01:33:11.667 --> 01:33:13.912
We had some really wonderful conversations.
01:33:14.733 --> 01:33:21.042
And a lot of them involve me trying to convert him and him trying to convert me.
01:33:21.082 --> 01:33:24.068
And those weren't wonderful conversations.
01:33:24.668 --> 01:33:26.231
Those got kind of exhausting.
01:33:26.372 --> 01:33:29.917
And when we both kind of figured out, okay, yeah, we're not converting each other.
01:33:30.658 --> 01:33:38.586
Then we were able to have sort of open and honest conversations, and it was really sort of lovely to discover how much common ground there was.
01:33:39.287 --> 01:33:44.152
This guy has since become a Catholic, and we've had some interesting conversations since.
01:33:45.173 --> 01:33:52.601
And, you know, at one point I had a book called Our Mormons Christians by Stephen Robinson, a BYU professor.
01:33:54.063 --> 01:34:00.210
And I gave it to my friend, and he wrote all kinds of really helpful comments in the margins.
01:34:00.833 --> 01:34:04.599
that helped me understand why anybody would say Mormons aren't Christians.
01:34:04.698 --> 01:34:09.465
And I thought, jeez, I've never been taught this in a church setting.
01:34:09.945 --> 01:34:12.269
I've never had a conversation like this in a church setting.
01:34:12.770 --> 01:34:23.884
And in a church setting, the conversation is always, the church is 100% right, and anybody who thinks otherwise, it's the Korihor template all over again.
01:34:23.904 --> 01:34:31.442
And it was really refreshing to me in that experience to go, oh, jeez, This is what they're saying when they say we're not Christians.
01:34:32.082 --> 01:34:33.525
They're not being Korahor.
01:34:34.046 --> 01:34:40.115
They're saying, okay, we're not part of the historical Christian tradition, which is true.
01:34:40.136 --> 01:34:42.699
We don't believe in the Trinity.
01:34:43.000 --> 01:34:43.661
That's true.
01:34:43.680 --> 01:35:08.728
I mean, there are all of these kinds of things that they're applying their own idea of what these words mean to the way Latter-day Saints use them and say, well, you're not part of this tradition, and when you're able to sort of meet them on their ground, you can have productive and positive conversations.
01:35:09.849 --> 01:35:22.521
We are seeing, at least in the United States, a really interesting and I think troubling phenomenon with regard to interfaith dialogue.
01:35:22.942 --> 01:35:35.144
Having been a political guy from way back, In the United States, one of the most powerful movements is what used to be called the religious right.
01:35:36.145 --> 01:35:38.930
It's now called, I think, Christian nationalism.
01:35:38.970 --> 01:35:50.930
And it's this idea that America is a Christian country and needs to have a Christian leadership.
01:35:52.273 --> 01:36:03.600
And The conservative Latter-day Saints have identified with this movement without realizing that these people hate us.
01:36:05.984 --> 01:36:07.725
They love our votes.
01:36:07.985 --> 01:36:09.207
They love our money.
01:36:09.226 --> 01:36:12.551
So they've kind of made it a taunt.
01:36:12.770 --> 01:36:19.578
But a lot of these people say just horrific things about the church and about Latter-day Saints from their pulpits.
01:36:20.418 --> 01:36:23.021
And so there's this sort of illusion.
01:36:24.033 --> 01:36:33.347
among a certain group of Latter-day Saints, right-wing Latter-day Saints, that they are included in a sort of ecumenical dialogue when they're not.
01:36:34.109 --> 01:36:49.492
They're being exploited for their political value, but they're not part of the Christian community as far as they are concerned.
01:36:50.233 --> 01:37:00.595
So I just don't even know that we've started having on an institutional level, any kind of a healthy dialogue that could be considered interfaith.
01:37:00.715 --> 01:37:03.538
And I would like to see that happen down the road.
01:37:06.903 --> 01:37:07.463
Thank you, Jim.
01:37:07.503 --> 01:37:21.181
And once again, Jim and Ian, thank you for taking the time to come on and talk a bit about your show and about how you have these conversations.
01:37:22.224 --> 01:37:31.462
And just before we wrap up, there are a lot of topics that I really like on your podcast.
01:37:31.502 --> 01:37:39.953
I think that anyone who can speak or understand English, I would recommend that they go check out your podcast with you.
01:37:39.993 --> 01:37:43.537
Let us know which platforms they can find you.
01:37:45.420 --> 01:37:46.622
They can find us anywhere.
01:37:46.641 --> 01:37:49.125
I mean, we're not on YouTube.
01:37:49.164 --> 01:37:50.286
I think maybe we need to be.
01:37:50.346 --> 01:37:54.408
The reason we're not on YouTube is because it's not a video podcast.
01:37:55.569 --> 01:37:56.210
And we added it.
01:37:56.871 --> 01:38:03.661
So maybe, Ian, maybe we need to get dressed up and pitch a video podcast too.
01:38:04.703 --> 01:38:05.784
But right, it's on Spotify.
01:38:06.485 --> 01:38:08.287
It's on Apple Podcasts.
01:38:08.347 --> 01:38:11.632
It's on Google Podcasts.
01:38:12.454 --> 01:38:16.359
Pretty much any platform, any audio platform for podcasts, you could find us.
01:38:18.082 --> 01:38:24.494
It's called Inside Out with Jim Bennett and Ian Wilkes, because there are a number of podcasts called Inside Out.
01:38:25.055 --> 01:38:29.244
So if you add our names, you'll be able to find them.
01:38:29.685 --> 01:38:32.291
And with that, we conclude this episode.
01:38:32.350 --> 01:38:36.899
Thanks for listening.
01:38:36.920 --> 01:38:37.662
We'll see you next time on Inside Out.