Master Sex and Intimacy: Self-Love, Courageous Conversations, and Unstoppable Connection - Episode 274

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Welcome everybody to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast.

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I'm your host, Dr.

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Jeffrey Gladden.

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And today we're talking about a topic in longevity that I think is central in many ways to
the whole life energy circle that we refer to here.

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It's central to health in many different ways, not only psycho-spiritual health, but
physiological health, satisfaction with life, life purpose, there's so many things this

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factors into.

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So we're going to be talking about intimacy, sexuality.

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relationships and we're joined today by Caitlin V and Caitlin is a student of this area
has been studying it for sounds like a couple of decades.

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Although I don't know you don't look that old but probably started some point.

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So anyway with that Caitlin welcome to the show.

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Hi.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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So tell us a little bit about yourself.

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How did you get interested in this in this area in this field.

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So you're totally right.

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I am in my mid 30s and I have been studying this for 20 years.

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I knew as a teenager that I was going to work in the field of sex and intimacy.

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I knew that specifically what I was meant to do in this field was to help people enjoy sex
more and get more pleasure out of their bodies, out of their relationships.

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And consequently, that requires experiencing less obstacles and less shame.

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And so that really is the core of my work as it has developed.

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I went into empirical science.

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I didn't know or I didn't consider that like sex coaching existed.

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I don't know that it did exist when I was like choosing a major in college.

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So I went and got a master's in public health.

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I was an actual sexual health researcher.

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I worked for the Texas State Congress at one point through the Texas Medical Center.

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I went to get my doctoral program.

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I went to a doctoral program in public health in Houston.

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And I ended up leaving that because I wanted to work with people in a one-on-one capacity
or a one-to-group capacity.

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So even as I was doing this empirical science research track during the day, I was
teaching sex ed and leading sex related conversations and intimacy conversations and

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helping people with their relationships at night and speaking to purpose and fulfillment
and our spiritual calling here while we're on earth.

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That is what I was living for.

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And eventually I realized I would end up in the ivory tower if I didn't get out of it.

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Right.

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And that is when I started my coaching career and my YouTube channel, which led to my show
on HBO Max called good sex and the things that I'm doing today.

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Okay.

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Beautiful.

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Well, it's interesting.

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So you're 35, 20 years ago, you were 15.

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So I don't know how many 14, 15, 13 year old people that are out there that are so clear
on wanting to go into a particular path.

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Was there something that just kind of drew you to it?

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Was there some story there, something related to yourself, parents, brothers, sisters?

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I don't know.

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It sounds like it could be something that triggered all that.

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Well, I grew up in Michigan with a pretty, I would say my parents leaned very moderate
inside.

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You know, we didn't have a lot of religious upbringing.

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There wasn't much sexual shame.

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I didn't experience any sort of trauma or anything like that.

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There are, you know, certainly people go into the sex related

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field sometimes because they experience some of the negative aspects of sex and sexuality.

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For me, actually, I figured out how to self pleasure and bring pleasure to my body and
give myself orgasm very early in life, very young, as a lot of people do.

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You know, I was fortunate in that my parents never shamed me or, you know, I wasn't doing
it at the dinner table.

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So I didn't have to be correct in some kind of way.

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And so as I grew up and I realized that

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you know, what I very naively and innocently experienced as like this cool thing that my
body was capable of, was something that was associated for other folks with a lot of shame

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and pain and discomfort and, and repression and especially, you know, folks who grew up in
different kinds of households than I did, didn't have the same access and the freedom and

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ease of access to pleasure in their body.

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And I felt from a very young age that this really is a human right.

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That, that

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The fact that our bodies can feel good means that there's something there for us to
explore and experience and we should be able to do so.

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And I think when I got to around that age and I was becoming sexually curious around
involving other people in my exploration, I realized that we were not being set up for

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success by our parents, by our public school, that I went to a public school in Michigan,
a great school.

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A school that had actually, compared to maybe what it looks like today, a little more
nuanced conversation about sexual health, but it was still very disease and pregnancy

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avoidance oriented.

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And I couldn't get over the fact that other people didn't have the simplicity, innocence,
and joy of feeling good in their body that I had experienced.

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that's been a mission to correct ever since.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it's interesting.

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It sounds like...

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Really your early sexual experiences just kind of resonated with you deeply as this is
like a wonderful good beautiful thing that just happens right the first time you had an

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orgasm and it's kind of like Wow, what a gift right?

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What a gift what a pleasure what a gift right and then and then it gets boxed up into all
these different constructs and whether it's religious or societal or you know, whatever

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academic or whatever it is and

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It becomes villainized as dangerous, wrong.

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know, all these different labels get put on it.

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And so people end up carrying a lot of baggage around something that, you know, if you
like to run, let's say you let's say you're a kid and you like to run and you go for a

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run.

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It's like, oh my gosh, I love running like this feels so good to me going through the
woods.

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Nobody shames you about running through the woods.

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Right.

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And so it's a little bit like, why are we shaming everybody about, you know, something
that's

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actually incredibly helpful.

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yeah.

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And that's free and that we all have, you know, consistent access to in a world where
we're not conditioned to look for and enjoy pleasure, like the simple pleasures, right?

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We're conditioned really to enjoy, you know, maybe pleasures that cost a lot of money or
are hard to obtain.

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And those are the ones that we sort of pedestal eyes.

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Yeah.

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There is this really easeful, simple, totally free, totally accessible.

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Yeah.

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pleasure that we can all have access to partner or not, no matter what age we are, even at
different ability levels with different injuries, like we can experience pleasure and it

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doesn't have to be just erotic pleasure.

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But I think that erotic pleasure is kind of the thing that most exemplifies our access to
pleasure if we allow ourselves to have it and enjoy it.

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Yeah, I agree.

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So let's talk a little bit more about intimacy.

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So we're really kind of talking about intimacy on a couple different levels.

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One is actually intimacy with yourself, right?

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There's a certain sort of self love, self joy, expression, if you will, of your own sexual
capacity, orientations, whatever it might be.

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There's a certain joy in all of that.

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Right.

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And then you bring other people into the mix and it gets interesting because everybody
sort of brings their own history into it, their own set of preconceptions.

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And then it gets overladen with

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the morality of something's right or something's wrong or something's good or something's
bad, right?

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All of that gets layered on it.

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And so then people are left trying to recapture that joy and sometimes wondering, gosh, is
this am I doing the right thing?

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Is this right?

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So talk us through a little bit how you kind of help deconstruct these situations for
people as they're, you know, as you're working with them.

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Well, you said it yourself.

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It starts with

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us.

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My core teaching is that the way that you have sex with yourself, experience your own body
and your own pleasure is core to what you are bringing and experiencing with another

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person.

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And I think a lot of folks, especially once we reach a certain age where sex becomes
related to other people, it like we start to focus on partnered sex, can become we can

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become very goal oriented about partnered sex, we can experience like that.

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partnered sex is the gold medal and anything less than that.

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Sex with myself is just settling for a consolation prize.

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And the truth is that actually in all ways, the way that we relate to other people starts
with the way that we relate to ourselves.

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We only have our own eyes through which to see the entire world.

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And like you said, once you start stacking on previous experiences, traumas, rejections,
pain points from the past, anytime that we have...

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conflict what we want has conflicted with what we were taught or what we believe is moral
or what we believe is right ways that we've caused pain to other people and then we add in

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a second person and all of their stuff related to morality and their experiences things
get exponentially more complicated very quickly and the way that I think about this for my

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clients and in what I teach is let's strip all of that back to the basics and let's start
with the two things that we can really

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have a, I'm going to say control over, which is we start with our body and we start with
our pleasure in our body, our erotic experience of our body, because that is for us.

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I think, you know, depending on your model of relationships or marriage or, you know, the
things that you were exposed to or taught, that alone can be really confronting for

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people.

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But that's where the empowerment to actually make any sort of shifts begins.

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So what I'm hearing you say is that really having a great sex life really begins with
having a great sex life with yourself.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it doesn't have to look any particular way.

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Great can look a lot of ways.

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What's great for you may be totally great for me, but it starts with you.

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Right.

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I think that's a really key takeaway point because there's a lot of work that an
individual can do just getting comfortable, let's say, with kind of

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who they are, understanding who they are, understand what brings pleasure, what doesn't
bring pleasure, what they like to fantasize about, what they don't like to fantasize

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about, all the different things that go into it.

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So that's a really interesting place.

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think people sort of take that for granted.

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In other words, they think that they're just gonna show up and all of a sudden it's gonna
kind of work out.

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There's a lot of homework to do here, right?

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Is what you're saying.

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Yeah, or home play.

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But I think we all have the idea, and this is true not just in sex and intimacy, but also
like in romantic relationships as well, that our partner is going to complete or know or

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unleash or make up for or do something to us that is going to allow us to have the
experience that we are wanting to have.

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And certainly it is true.

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This is one of the reasons that we find sexual and romantic partners.

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is because they do show us different sides of ourself.

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They act as a mirror, they reflect things, they also make up for some of our weaknesses
with their strengths, right?

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We can sort of import and export like different characteristics between us and our
partner.

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And so that is definitely true in the bedroom as well.

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But if we approach partnership from the perspective of they will figure this out for me,
or you know, for my clients, when they come to me, they're like, my

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partner, my spouse, my husband, my wife is doing it wrong in some way or another, and I
need to fix them.

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I need to change them.

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We don't allow ourselves to really harness our own power to shift our relationship,
whether that's what we want to shift is inside or outside of the bedroom.

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think that's a great point.

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When I think about making love, let's call it making love, to me, it's really a
conversation.

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It's not a physical act.

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It's really a conversation.

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And the conversation is mind, body, spirit.

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It's a mind, body, spirit kind of conversation.

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Right.

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So it's all of you bring all of yourself to it.

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And there's a there's a real desire.

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Let's just take sexuality out of it.

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If you're just getting to know somebody.

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Right.

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You know, I mentioned to you that for me, the the definition of a good relationship apart
from sexual activity for a second.

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is to know and be known and to love and be loved.

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so being able to be known is is putting ourselves in a vulnerable state, right?

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It's by definition, right?

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Putting yourself in a vulnerable state and then finding a partner.

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think the definition of a good partner is somebody that can hold space for you and wants
to understand your vulnerabilities and not judge you.

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It's not about judging.

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It's really about understanding.

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And then.

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than the other person holding that same space for the other person, right?

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And that's true whether you're talking about a shopping list, a vacation, how you're going
to decorate your kitchen or whatever it is, right?

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There's this sense of reciprocity and vulnerability.

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So my point is that if you're listening to this, you can actually develop a better sex
life, even talking about mundane kinds of activities.

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If you go about it in this fashion of

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I'm really here to know you better and understand you better, right?

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So no one be known so I can love you more completely.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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We have the conception that, you know, sex starts and ends in the bedroom, but sex is not
separate from the rest of our lives.

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And one of the things I love to say is the way you do one thing is the way you do
everything.

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Like I can I get kind of hung up when I go to the grocery store because I love watching
people grocery shop because I feel like I can learn so much about them.

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just by the way that they move through this very kind of mundane task.

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And it's probably because they're not really thinking so much about it.

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No one's like self criticizing the way that the grocery shop, but maybe.

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No, you're judging them except you.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Well, I'm just analyzing, but yeah.

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But it's true for anything.

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Like, you know, the way that you think about checking your mail, paying your bills,
getting your car serviced.

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Like I can see so much about the way that you interact with the world.

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And even more so if I watch you think about making dinner with your partner or going, you
know,

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planning a vacation with your partner, I can see some of the ways in which you're going to
show up in bed, right?

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It's not separate.

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And the other thing, you you mentioned that one of the core aspects of the life energy
circle is our experience of safety.

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So much of intimacy, which this is a little cliche, but I kind of like the definition of
intimacy as into me see, is our willingness to be seen and see into someone else.

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And that requires a great deal of safety.

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Because if we've had experiences where we let someone see us very deeply and then they
rejected us or they use the information that they learned about us to cause us pain or

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inflict emotional damage on us, it can be increasingly difficult over time to allow
ourselves to be vulnerable and to allow ourselves to be seen.

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And if that's the energy that we're carrying in our relationship, maybe because we haven't
gotten things complete, maybe because there's wounds or things from the past that we're

210
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not allowed to talk about, or we've been holding things back for so long.

211
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and we never give ourselves the space to actually have the conversations that we need to
have, whether that's for fear of being left or fear of causing pain, then that all comes

212
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into the bedroom with us.

213
00:17:01,318 --> 00:17:10,046
And like you said, if it's a mind, body, spirit conversation, then we can have various
shades of presence on each of those three levels.

214
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But they're all going to impact each other.

215
00:17:12,188 --> 00:17:15,265
If I'm only trying to be really present with my body,

216
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and I'm trying to not bring my spirit and my mind into the conversation with me, I'm only
going to be able to experience so much sensation or so much pleasure, right?

217
00:17:24,143 --> 00:17:33,301
Or if I'm only trying to be present with my mind and my body's not really engaged in this
because it's tired of me not listening to it when it comes to this relationship and it's

218
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like, and the way that this looks is like women experiencing pain with sex, experiencing
an inability to reach orgasm, men experiencing erectile dysfunction, but only with a

219
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partner.

220
00:17:43,381 --> 00:17:49,734
never experiencing erectile dysfunction when they're alone, waking up with an erection
every morning, but then, you know, when they're with their wife or their partner, like, it

221
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can't get hard.

222
00:17:50,854 --> 00:17:53,925
This is the way that the body kicks itself out of the conversation, right?

223
00:17:53,925 --> 00:17:59,958
Like you have to be willing to show up and be vulnerable in all three in order to have
that great sex life.

224
00:17:59,958 --> 00:18:04,340
And if you can't, a lot of people come to me because they're like, sex is a problem,
right?

225
00:18:04,340 --> 00:18:05,700
Everything else is great.

226
00:18:06,161 --> 00:18:09,682
But when we start to unpack it, it's like sex is always the symptom.

227
00:18:09,682 --> 00:18:12,263
The problem exists in every single level, yeah.

228
00:18:12,557 --> 00:18:13,037
That's right.

229
00:18:13,037 --> 00:18:13,898
No sex.

230
00:18:13,898 --> 00:18:14,188
Yeah.

231
00:18:14,188 --> 00:18:15,389
Sexual.

232
00:18:16,791 --> 00:18:26,469
I wouldn't even call it dysfunction, but sex, that's not everything that you'd like it to
be is really a symptom, which if you have a symptom, it's really an opportunity to

233
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understand it more deeply.

234
00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:30,232
It's like, gosh, I wonder why this is the case.

235
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Right.

236
00:18:32,404 --> 00:18:34,545
Yeah, I think it's really true.

237
00:18:34,545 --> 00:18:38,298
And I think that safety is really a big one.

238
00:18:38,298 --> 00:18:41,070
think, you know, men can suffer.

239
00:18:41,507 --> 00:18:44,927
erectile dysfunction for a variety of reasons, some of which are physiologic.

240
00:18:44,927 --> 00:18:53,947
Maybe there's nerve damage, diabetes or a trauma or something that could be vascular
disease related to cardiovascular events or things like that.

241
00:18:53,947 --> 00:19:02,807
But it can also be due to psychological trauma or feelings of guilt or feelings of shame
or whatever it is.

242
00:19:02,807 --> 00:19:03,387
Right.

243
00:19:03,407 --> 00:19:10,227
So in fact, that can sort of shut down sexual function as profoundly, if not more
profoundly.

244
00:19:10,497 --> 00:19:20,055
than a physiologic impairment, which there are many times there are ways to overcome those
with a variety of techniques or tools or whatever it might be.

245
00:19:20,055 --> 00:19:30,262
So it's really for me, it's a conversation and it's really more in your head than it is in
your body.

246
00:19:30,262 --> 00:19:34,836
It's not that your body's not part of it, but the head kind of is leading the charge here.

247
00:19:34,836 --> 00:19:35,116
Right.

248
00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:36,597
And so creating

249
00:19:36,619 --> 00:19:44,663
A sense of safety and intimacy with you and your partner where you're free to explore and
you're free, you're fantasized and you're free to, to go down different paths and step

250
00:19:44,663 --> 00:19:55,090
into the taboo and step out of the taboo and step into, you know, role player, whatever
you want to do, having the freedom and developing a safety zone where you can play in this

251
00:19:55,090 --> 00:19:56,050
way.

252
00:19:56,831 --> 00:20:01,553
starts to open you up to lots of pleasure and joy that you may not have known was there,
right?

253
00:20:01,553 --> 00:20:02,774
But it's last thing you first.

254
00:20:02,774 --> 00:20:05,055
I want to say regarding the like.

255
00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:11,522
mind, body, spirit, is that all of us, we sort of all fall into different archetypes.

256
00:20:11,663 --> 00:20:15,465
I use a system called the erotic blueprints that is like a sexual archetyping system.

257
00:20:15,465 --> 00:20:17,145
And I'm happy to give you a breakdown of that.

258
00:20:17,145 --> 00:20:25,150
But I would say that each of us has a different entry point when it comes to arousal and
when it comes to eroticism.

259
00:20:25,150 --> 00:20:27,641
And for some folks, that entry point is going to be the body.

260
00:20:27,641 --> 00:20:35,175
It's either going to be the body in terms of the senses, tastes, smells, touch, feels,

261
00:20:35,715 --> 00:20:44,210
that kind of body experience, sensational body experience, or it's gonna be through the
body in the sense of like genitals, orgasms, naked bodies, right?

262
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:48,463
That's gonna be the entry point and then the mind and the spirit will follow, right?

263
00:20:48,463 --> 00:20:59,229
For some folks, it is really about the energetic connection, the presence, like the
quality of the texture of the energy between the people and how engaged they are and being

264
00:20:59,229 --> 00:21:00,450
present with each other.

265
00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:02,083
And once that is...

266
00:21:02,083 --> 00:21:07,686
touched on, once that is secured, once they have that experience, then the mind and the
body can follow.

267
00:21:07,686 --> 00:21:10,667
And then for some folks, it's going to be the mental engagement.

268
00:21:10,667 --> 00:21:16,710
Some of the examples that you gave like role playing or kink or BDSM, a lot of that can be
about bringing the mind into the bedroom with us.

269
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:27,365
It can be about engaging our problem solving or thinking our creative brain in such a way
that we have access to turn on through our mind and then the body and the spirit can

270
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follow.

271
00:21:28,055 --> 00:21:30,466
And then there are some folks who have multiple access points.

272
00:21:30,466 --> 00:21:38,248
Eroticism just comes very naturally or easy to them, or maybe they've done a lot of work
in order to engage so they can get their mind or body or spirit.

273
00:21:38,248 --> 00:21:40,139
They can jump on in.

274
00:21:40,139 --> 00:21:40,619
Right.

275
00:21:40,619 --> 00:21:41,639
Exactly.

276
00:21:41,639 --> 00:21:43,450
No, think that's well said.

277
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:47,621
Yeah, I think there are a variety of entry points.

278
00:21:47,621 --> 00:21:52,592
And for any individual, there can be a variety of entry points with the same person over
time.

279
00:21:52,592 --> 00:21:53,703
Right.

280
00:21:53,703 --> 00:21:54,643
Or

281
00:21:55,075 --> 00:21:58,535
with different people that can be different entry points for different people.

282
00:21:58,675 --> 00:21:59,155
Whatever.

283
00:21:59,155 --> 00:21:59,595
Right.

284
00:21:59,595 --> 00:22:00,795
So all this is true.

285
00:22:00,795 --> 00:22:14,435
And I think one of the things that I think we talk about in the life energy circle that I
think is relevant here is that we've all suffered trauma in our lives in one form or

286
00:22:14,435 --> 00:22:15,175
another.

287
00:22:15,475 --> 00:22:19,515
And then the problem is we end up living in reaction to that trauma.

288
00:22:19,515 --> 00:22:20,215
Right.

289
00:22:20,215 --> 00:22:21,343
And so that

290
00:22:21,343 --> 00:22:24,184
sort of tends to shut us down or we shy away from something.

291
00:22:24,184 --> 00:22:24,945
It could be anything.

292
00:22:24,945 --> 00:22:29,148
It could be starting a checking account or it could be something in the bedroom.

293
00:22:29,148 --> 00:22:29,729
Right.

294
00:22:29,729 --> 00:22:43,308
But in living in reaction to those traumas, I think it's really, really important to not
bypass those, but to actually dive deep into those deconstructed, understand what was the

295
00:22:43,308 --> 00:22:48,862
trauma, what happened, what, what, what affected me, what, how did I affect somebody else?

296
00:22:48,862 --> 00:22:49,762
What was my role?

297
00:22:49,762 --> 00:22:51,149
What was their role?

298
00:22:51,149 --> 00:23:01,767
You know, and if you can really do that, then in, my experience, you have the ability to
start to heal that you can't really kill it until you fully understand it.

299
00:23:01,767 --> 00:23:09,202
And then once you heal it, you can actually from a psycho spiritual space, you can
actually transcend it to where you actually become grateful for everything that ever

300
00:23:09,202 --> 00:23:17,068
happened, because now it gives you more empathy and sympathy and whatever for your partner
or where they're coming from or whomever it is.

301
00:23:17,068 --> 00:23:17,308
Right.

302
00:23:17,308 --> 00:23:19,339
So it actually becomes a plus.

303
00:23:19,725 --> 00:23:29,240
But to transition from being encumbered by that trauma to being unencumbered by that
trauma is a really important transition to make.

304
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:33,423
And I think it should almost be, if you're listening to this, I'm going to make this
statement.

305
00:23:33,423 --> 00:23:35,064
You correct me if you think I'm wrong.

306
00:23:35,064 --> 00:23:44,839
But I think part of our journey in our own sexuality is to actually identify those things
where we do feel stuck and explore them, heal them, transcend them and become unencumbered

307
00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:46,990
so we can actually bring all of ourselves forward.

308
00:23:46,990 --> 00:23:47,871
Right.

309
00:23:48,001 --> 00:23:48,922
terms of everything.

310
00:23:48,922 --> 00:23:51,013
I don't know, that's kind of how I'm thinking about it.

311
00:23:51,013 --> 00:23:52,794
Yeah, I agree entirely.

312
00:23:52,794 --> 00:24:07,615
And I think that the just like, you know, my experience of physical or emotional wounding
is that the learning the conditions under which the body heals best and, you know,

313
00:24:07,615 --> 00:24:15,851
treating treating my physical body in such a way that I experience both gratitude for its
ongoing capacity

314
00:24:15,851 --> 00:24:19,675
as well as compassion for the injury, the loss of capacity.

315
00:24:19,675 --> 00:24:28,243
And that, you know, the experience of that does soften us and allow us to experience more
empathy for other people.

316
00:24:28,243 --> 00:24:31,847
It also causes us to connect with our vulnerability.

317
00:24:31,847 --> 00:24:34,810
You know, I recently tore a hamstring.

318
00:24:34,810 --> 00:24:37,803
didn't tear it all the way, but I really injured my hamstring.

319
00:24:37,803 --> 00:24:38,493
I,

320
00:24:41,277 --> 00:24:43,429
I had never, I wasn't very athletic as a kid.

321
00:24:43,429 --> 00:24:48,303
had pretty uncontrolled asthma until I was in my mid-20s and I realized I needed to stop
and change my diet.

322
00:24:48,303 --> 00:24:55,259
Now I'm far more athletic than I ever was, but I never experienced like an athletic injury
until I was in my mid-30s.

323
00:24:55,259 --> 00:25:02,266
And I got to have this experience of like, okay, I see the physical limitations of my body
in a new way.

324
00:25:02,266 --> 00:25:08,725
I see what a blessing it has been to have hamstrings in perfect condition up until today.

325
00:25:08,725 --> 00:25:16,740
I get to experience and I have far more empathy for the people in my life who have
experienced any sort of injury along this line that takes such a long time to heal and

326
00:25:16,740 --> 00:25:21,472
like, you know, the real emotional and mental challenge that comes along with a physical
injury.

327
00:25:21,472 --> 00:25:27,106
And I think that we can look at emotional and mental and relational injuries through the
same lens.

328
00:25:27,106 --> 00:25:36,051
You know, we I understood I was mad at first, but when I learned that it was going to take
six to eight months for my hamstring to feel better, I was like,

329
00:25:36,515 --> 00:25:39,175
Okay, and we don't do the same with our heart.

330
00:25:39,235 --> 00:25:39,695
Right?

331
00:25:39,695 --> 00:25:44,655
We don't go to a physician or a clinician or a coach or a therapist and say like, Oh, my
heart is really broken.

332
00:25:44,655 --> 00:25:48,055
And they go, Yeah, it's probably gonna take like eight to 12 months in order to feel
better.

333
00:25:48,055 --> 00:25:58,335
You know, like you might have to feel that pain every single day for eight to 12 full
months before you start to experience, you know, feeling wholeness or flexibility or the

334
00:25:58,335 --> 00:26:00,235
full capacity of your heart again.

335
00:26:00,615 --> 00:26:06,221
And so instead of actually, you know, I couldn't avoid the physical pain of my hamstring,
right?

336
00:26:06,221 --> 00:26:17,949
but we do gymnastics and we put a whole bunch of time and energy and we just squander so
much of our capacity and so much of our life force on stifling and repressing the pains of

337
00:26:17,949 --> 00:26:21,462
our mind and our spirit and our heart, right?

338
00:26:21,462 --> 00:26:22,602
Yeah, I think that's right.

339
00:26:22,602 --> 00:26:28,856
I don't think it's true that we don't have to feel them, but I think it is true that we
can avoid it, just like if I avoided walking.

340
00:26:28,856 --> 00:26:33,219
Yeah, it's an interesting point that you make.

341
00:26:33,219 --> 00:26:35,290
And I think part of it,

342
00:26:35,691 --> 00:26:46,137
is that people feel like I'm just hypothesizing here that we need to show up, you know,
come hell or high water, we sort of need to show up.

343
00:26:47,098 --> 00:26:53,822
And somebody doesn't want to listen to us talk about our trauma, right?

344
00:26:53,822 --> 00:26:56,023
I think what's so important

345
00:26:57,761 --> 00:27:05,035
When we talk about being a good sex partner, I think a lot of it is about being a good
listener, right?

346
00:27:05,035 --> 00:27:11,198
Being receptive to what the other person is saying, both verbally and non-verbally.

347
00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:11,739
Right.

348
00:27:11,739 --> 00:27:13,240
And exploring all those things.

349
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:14,160
Right.

350
00:27:14,881 --> 00:27:22,005
Because when you do that, you start to when somebody feels known and understood, my gosh,
intimacy just goes through the roof.

351
00:27:22,005 --> 00:27:22,325
Right.

352
00:27:22,325 --> 00:27:23,656
All of a sudden, now they feel safe.

353
00:27:23,656 --> 00:27:24,356
They feel seen.

354
00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:25,567
They feel heard.

355
00:27:25,567 --> 00:27:26,567
Now.

356
00:27:26,623 --> 00:27:34,780
If you want to have a great lover, know, the best thing you can do is actually be a great
listener or who they are.

357
00:27:34,780 --> 00:27:35,120
Right.

358
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:36,061
Yeah.

359
00:27:36,061 --> 00:27:42,476
And move slowly enough that you can actually listen to their words and to their body.

360
00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:45,098
You know, the word that I use most is attunement.

361
00:27:45,283 --> 00:27:53,335
Like a great lover is highly attuned to their partner, which means that, you know, just
the same way that you tune an instrument, you like listen to it.

362
00:27:53,335 --> 00:27:56,065
You make those adjustments, tweaks, but you have to be

363
00:27:56,065 --> 00:28:01,258
really, really present and you have to almost remove parts of yourself from the equation,
right?

364
00:28:01,258 --> 00:28:05,110
Because too often we can hear our lover say that they like this or they don't like that.

365
00:28:05,110 --> 00:28:06,911
And we make it mean something about us.

366
00:28:06,911 --> 00:28:11,904
my performance or I'm not, I'm not good enough or I am too much.

367
00:28:11,984 --> 00:28:12,465
Right?

368
00:28:12,465 --> 00:28:15,877
And really your partner's preferences are their own.

369
00:28:15,877 --> 00:28:18,108
They're not a reflection of you.

370
00:28:18,108 --> 00:28:24,071
And when we're listening, you know, the way I kind of see that is we're listening with
like gunk in the pipe.

371
00:28:24,791 --> 00:28:32,006
You know, we've put too much of our stuff and our own BS and our own ego into the channel
through which we are listening to this person.

372
00:28:32,006 --> 00:28:34,728
So we're not really getting like clear flow of information.

373
00:28:34,728 --> 00:28:37,900
We're not getting clear signal because we've got gunk.

374
00:28:38,161 --> 00:28:39,412
No, that's exactly true.

375
00:28:39,412 --> 00:28:40,463
But God bless us.

376
00:28:40,463 --> 00:28:43,174
You know, we've got our own stuff too, right?

377
00:28:43,174 --> 00:28:49,811
So we have to be, you know, this certain kindness towards ourselves in this whole process
too, right?

378
00:28:49,811 --> 00:28:50,150
yeah.

379
00:28:50,150 --> 00:28:52,691
And to your point, that is where the trauma healing comes in.

380
00:28:53,043 --> 00:29:07,947
I think we are at such a total and complete lack of examples of people who are doing this
sort of trauma healing for themselves, emotional, mental, spiritual, and relational

381
00:29:07,947 --> 00:29:09,088
healing.

382
00:29:09,168 --> 00:29:13,309
It's very vulnerable to come out and to be public or to share.

383
00:29:13,309 --> 00:29:15,666
My divorce, it really set me back.

384
00:29:15,666 --> 00:29:17,730
I experienced a ton of pain and rejection.

385
00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:20,651
I had this feeling of failure.

386
00:29:20,755 --> 00:29:31,424
And I had to go through and tend to the parts of myself that had been in a codependent
relationship, the wounds that that created, but like whatever it is, right?

387
00:29:31,424 --> 00:29:37,835
How often do you hear people sharing about their heartbreaks and their relationships from
that kind of perspective?

388
00:29:37,835 --> 00:29:38,950
I mean, usually it's not.

389
00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:39,871
Usually we're engaging.

390
00:29:39,871 --> 00:29:49,411
And the way that you know that you have some form of trauma that's coming up or coming
forward is I think simply to look at, we engaging in fight behaviors?

391
00:29:49,411 --> 00:29:54,111
light behaviors, fawn behaviors, freeze behaviors, are we being hypervigilant?

392
00:29:54,111 --> 00:29:59,051
Like all of those things are pretty good indication that there's something that we can
heal.

393
00:29:59,831 --> 00:30:07,311
But because of the lack of modeling for what that healing can look like, and could be, you
know, our parents didn't do it, our grandparents didn't do it, the people around us didn't

394
00:30:07,311 --> 00:30:12,897
do it, we can fall under the impression that this kind of healing has to be difficult.

395
00:30:12,897 --> 00:30:16,240
that this kind of healing is going to kill us, it's going to take us out.

396
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:23,176
If I even begin to take the lid off of how much my heart breaks, then I'll never stop
crying, you know?

397
00:30:23,176 --> 00:30:27,059
And the truth is that that's not, that isn't what happens.

398
00:30:27,059 --> 00:30:27,600
know?

399
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,482
It doesn't, it's not always easy, but it doesn't have to be difficult.

400
00:30:31,743 --> 00:30:35,746
The interesting thing I think is that when emotions are actually acknowledged,

401
00:30:38,357 --> 00:30:40,029
you can start to deal with them.

402
00:30:40,029 --> 00:30:52,539
know, when I was practicing interventional cardiology for 25 years, and even in my medical
training, one of the things that I learned was that, for example, in the ICU, I was at

403
00:30:52,539 --> 00:30:58,724
Case Western in the ICU for a rotation, and we had a neurologist that was the attending
physician.

404
00:30:59,025 --> 00:31:06,171
And he was incredibly meticulous with us about helping us to care for the family of the
person that was in the ICU.

405
00:31:06,675 --> 00:31:10,756
and what they were going through relative to this person being ill.

406
00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:14,737
And he taught us that really that people can deal with anything.

407
00:31:14,737 --> 00:31:17,638
The hardest thing for them to deal with is ambiguity.

408
00:31:17,638 --> 00:31:26,801
And so if you know someone's going to die in the next 36 hours, let the family know, I
think they're going to die rather than stringing them along saying, well, you we're not

409
00:31:26,801 --> 00:31:28,318
sure we're doing our best.

410
00:31:28,318 --> 00:31:29,371
You know, we're going to try this.

411
00:31:29,371 --> 00:31:30,592
You know what I'm saying?

412
00:31:30,592 --> 00:31:36,003
And so in my career, I would have conversations when I knew somebody was really I would
say, look,

413
00:31:36,003 --> 00:31:43,123
I think there's a 5 % chance that Mary or John or whoever is going to be here, you know,
tomorrow or within 48 hours.

414
00:31:43,123 --> 00:31:44,443
And I think you should know that.

415
00:31:44,443 --> 00:31:50,623
And if you'd like to come in and bring your family, we'll make, you know, access available
to you and all that sort of thing.

416
00:31:50,623 --> 00:31:53,563
And people were always so grateful.

417
00:31:53,563 --> 00:31:54,263
Right.

418
00:31:54,343 --> 00:32:01,563
And so part of it in relationships in general is when ambiguity shows up, like, am I going
to be accepted?

419
00:32:01,563 --> 00:32:02,643
Am I going to be rejected?

420
00:32:02,643 --> 00:32:03,343
Right.

421
00:32:03,343 --> 00:32:04,941
Ambiguity is really like,

422
00:32:04,941 --> 00:32:07,132
That's almost like an invitation card to me now.

423
00:32:07,132 --> 00:32:08,813
It's like, there's ambiguity here.

424
00:32:08,813 --> 00:32:16,407
Let's go in and let's go in and actually explore the ambiguity so we can actually resolve
it or see what it is or understand both what it is and what it isn't.

425
00:32:16,407 --> 00:32:16,767
Right.

426
00:32:16,767 --> 00:32:20,860
And I think that's a really, that's a really cool little thing to do.

427
00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:27,543
So, I think that, you know, you mentioned before we started recording courageous
conversations.

428
00:32:27,543 --> 00:32:28,111
Yeah.

429
00:32:28,111 --> 00:32:29,191
Right.

430
00:32:29,324 --> 00:32:34,645
One of the greatest gifts that we can give to ourselves and to the people that we love is

431
00:32:34,645 --> 00:32:38,057
saying the thing that is difficult to say.

432
00:32:38,998 --> 00:32:52,207
Whenever I find myself having a conversation to myself internally about a thing that I
want to share externally, but I think it's going to be hard.

433
00:32:52,207 --> 00:32:53,448
I don't say I know it's going to be hard.

434
00:32:53,448 --> 00:32:57,451
think, I don't want to say that out loud because what if they don't receive it well?

435
00:32:57,453 --> 00:33:01,056
What if I don't say it correctly and I actually cause more damage?

436
00:33:01,056 --> 00:33:10,683
the thing is that there are structures for having these kinds of communication that allow
us to experience like a higher degree of safety than if we just do the thing that we've

437
00:33:10,683 --> 00:33:14,595
done in the past, which is maybe like wait until it boils over and then just like blurt it
out.

438
00:33:15,636 --> 00:33:17,818
I need more freedom or I need space.

439
00:33:17,818 --> 00:33:19,759
I need a night alone to myself.

440
00:33:20,340 --> 00:33:25,119
It is often that if we engaged in like a minimal amount of structure,

441
00:33:25,119 --> 00:33:26,060
that conversation.

442
00:33:26,060 --> 00:33:37,546
And we're like one Google, we're one chat GPT search away from like, I have to say a thing
that is difficult to my spouse, my loved one, my child, my boss, my neighbor.

443
00:33:38,067 --> 00:33:48,953
How can I put this or what what structure can I put into place such that I can say the
thing that I'm resisting, and they might be able to hear it in a way that allows us to

444
00:33:48,953 --> 00:33:52,475
move towards each other instead of away from each other.

445
00:33:52,715 --> 00:34:00,978
Communication is something that doesn't have to be the like the obstacle that it occurs to
us as.

446
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:02,099
That's right.

447
00:34:02,099 --> 00:34:03,640
I think this is exactly right.

448
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,921
I think when you feel resistance to me, you you were talking about feeling certain
different things.

449
00:34:08,921 --> 00:34:13,564
I think a lot of those can be kind of collected under resistance.

450
00:34:13,564 --> 00:34:18,276
If you're feeling resistance towards something and saying something or whatever, that's
the thing that needs to be said.

451
00:34:18,276 --> 00:34:21,587
And the courageous conversation is always going to feel like

452
00:34:21,711 --> 00:34:27,226
my gosh, I can't believe I'm about to say this, but let me bring this forward.

453
00:34:27,226 --> 00:34:31,259
And the way I do it is to just say, you know, I have something on my heart that I'd like
to share with you.

454
00:34:31,259 --> 00:34:32,300
Is this a good time?

455
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:33,260
Is this a good time?

456
00:34:33,260 --> 00:34:38,525
And if the person says, yeah, it's a great time or no, not right now because I'm then
great.

457
00:34:38,525 --> 00:34:39,946
Let's pick another time.

458
00:34:39,946 --> 00:34:45,330
But when there is in a receptive mode, it's like, let me share what's happening for me
here.

459
00:34:45,410 --> 00:34:51,319
And if you have a contract with each other set up outside of that conversation, it's like,
you know,

460
00:34:51,319 --> 00:34:52,890
Let's have courageous conversations.

461
00:34:52,890 --> 00:34:54,301
Let's do it on a weekly basis.

462
00:34:54,301 --> 00:35:01,436
Let's ask each other, what's the most courageous conversation we could have this Sunday
afternoon, both from your direction and my direction, right?

463
00:35:01,436 --> 00:35:05,739
So you create a kind of a rhythm to it where it's not out of the blue, right?

464
00:35:05,739 --> 00:35:09,092
This becomes a really great way to have these conversations.

465
00:35:09,092 --> 00:35:10,532
It's practice.

466
00:35:10,579 --> 00:35:11,794
You know, it's training.

467
00:35:11,794 --> 00:35:19,393
You hit the gym like we don't expect that we're going to be able to lift the two or 300
pounds immediately.

468
00:35:19,393 --> 00:35:19,723
Right?

469
00:35:19,723 --> 00:35:28,778
And if we honor that these things are actually skill sets that we can practice and that we
can train and that we, you know, the only way to do it is to start and to start maybe

470
00:35:28,778 --> 00:35:35,732
responsibly, maybe to start slowly, maybe to start, but just to start and then have the
discipline of doing it on a regular basis.

471
00:35:35,832 --> 00:35:40,465
I, my partner and I ask each other, tell me one thing you want me to understand about you.

472
00:35:40,579 --> 00:35:41,215
that's a good one.

473
00:35:41,215 --> 00:35:41,486
Yeah.

474
00:35:41,486 --> 00:35:41,776
Right.

475
00:35:41,776 --> 00:35:47,667
Cause it's, it's not, you know, we're not setting ourselves up for, sometimes it's
revealed some very, very deep things.

476
00:35:47,667 --> 00:35:53,673
I want you to understand that I am struggling with this or when you do this thing, I
experience it as that, right?

477
00:35:53,673 --> 00:35:55,274
But it can also be really simple.

478
00:35:55,274 --> 00:36:05,543
Like I'm having a kind of a tough time with my boss and I really don't understand what
they want from me and I'm afraid I'm going to get fired and that creates an environment of

479
00:36:05,543 --> 00:36:07,795
kind of inconsistency and uncertainty around me.

480
00:36:07,795 --> 00:36:14,051
And the best thing that you can do as my partner is be consistent and stable with me or
make me dinner.

481
00:36:14,051 --> 00:36:15,552
three nights this week or whatever.

482
00:36:15,552 --> 00:36:20,816
And the practice of this particular question that we ask each other is that it's not a
conversation starter.

483
00:36:20,877 --> 00:36:24,840
I'm not responding to what he is saying or what I'm saying to him.

484
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,721
Tell me one thing you want me to understand about you.

485
00:36:26,721 --> 00:36:28,143
Here is the thing.

486
00:36:28,143 --> 00:36:32,916
And then if we want to engage in a conversation around that, we have to ask for consent.

487
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:34,498
And that's the same thing that you were just saying.

488
00:36:34,498 --> 00:36:35,829
Like I have something on my heart.

489
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:37,490
Do you have space for me to say it?

490
00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:41,693
I'll often start by saying like, Hey, there's something that I want to share with you.

491
00:36:41,934 --> 00:36:42,854
Can I?

492
00:36:43,617 --> 00:36:44,427
Right?

493
00:36:45,268 --> 00:36:48,431
My partner's probably never, ever, ever said no to that.

494
00:36:48,431 --> 00:36:48,871
Right.

495
00:36:48,871 --> 00:36:49,612
Right.

496
00:36:49,612 --> 00:36:51,253
And maybe it's not a...

497
00:36:51,253 --> 00:36:54,055
It's a timing issue sometimes, but it's...

498
00:36:54,055 --> 00:36:54,535
Right.

499
00:36:54,535 --> 00:36:58,257
If it's never no, it's maybe like not right now, you know?

500
00:36:59,179 --> 00:37:07,675
But even just breaking the ice in that way, instead of blurting out the thing that we're
resisting saying, can make such a world of difference.

501
00:37:07,675 --> 00:37:10,563
I like to add, there's something that I want to say to you.

502
00:37:10,563 --> 00:37:11,473
Do you have space to hear it?

503
00:37:11,473 --> 00:37:11,833
Great.

504
00:37:11,833 --> 00:37:12,213
Okay.

505
00:37:12,213 --> 00:37:19,415
It's been, it's difficult for me to say it because I am afraid of, or I'm telling myself a
story that now I'm like clearing the air.

506
00:37:19,415 --> 00:37:21,916
I'm getting the elephant out right away.

507
00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:22,586
Right.

508
00:37:22,586 --> 00:37:24,966
And now I have actual space.

509
00:37:24,966 --> 00:37:28,517
have created an environment in which I can say the thing that needs to be said.

510
00:37:28,517 --> 00:37:29,367
That's right.

511
00:37:29,367 --> 00:37:30,168
Yeah, exactly.

512
00:37:30,168 --> 00:37:34,468
I think that's a great way to, I think that's a great way to talk about it.

513
00:37:35,149 --> 00:37:39,730
I want to introduce an elephant into the room, at least from my perspective, let's see if
it's there or not.

514
00:37:39,730 --> 00:37:39,990
Right.

515
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:40,723
So.

516
00:37:40,723 --> 00:37:42,263
right, bring it forward.

517
00:37:42,344 --> 00:37:48,949
And I also think that humor is a great way to break down resistance, right?

518
00:37:48,949 --> 00:37:58,886
So even if you can approach yourself from a humorous perspective and have humor in the
context of this, it makes the conversation that much easier, right?

519
00:37:58,886 --> 00:38:08,267
Both people can kind of laugh at themselves or each other or whatever it is, but it's
like, hey, you know, it's a great way to break the ice on these things, I think.

520
00:38:08,267 --> 00:38:12,949
And what we're saying by adding this structure of, here's how you may introduce this
conversation.

521
00:38:12,949 --> 00:38:14,529
That's the science.

522
00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:16,630
The rest is art.

523
00:38:16,831 --> 00:38:17,161
Yeah.

524
00:38:17,161 --> 00:38:17,361
Right.

525
00:38:17,361 --> 00:38:19,362
We're making art out of our lives.

526
00:38:19,362 --> 00:38:25,354
When we're having these difficult conversations, we're allowing ourselves to be messy and
imperfect and to not get it totally right.

527
00:38:25,354 --> 00:38:30,797
And then we're adding this extra layer of creativity, which is part of the grand human
endeavor.

528
00:38:30,797 --> 00:38:36,653
And that that is where we say, OK, can I make this interaction light?

529
00:38:36,653 --> 00:38:39,164
Can I make this interaction?

530
00:38:39,704 --> 00:38:40,605
Joyous.

531
00:38:40,605 --> 00:38:43,066
Yeah, joyous is exactly it.

532
00:38:43,426 --> 00:38:44,377
Yeah, exactly.

533
00:38:44,377 --> 00:38:47,008
Yeah, no, I think that's right.

534
00:41:03,972 --> 00:41:14,817
Yeah, so just thinking about, know, I did some, I had a relationship that ended at one
point in time.

535
00:41:16,058 --> 00:41:17,374
In the process of...

536
00:41:17,374 --> 00:41:20,594
working on that relationship, we got involved with a MAGO therapy.

537
00:41:20,594 --> 00:41:27,017
I don't know if you're familiar with a MAGO, but for the audience, it's a really useful
strategy.

538
00:41:27,017 --> 00:41:31,618
And I found it to be incredibly helpful for me to actually understand this person more
deeply.

539
00:41:32,378 --> 00:41:43,571
And essentially in a MAGO therapy, if you and I were doing a MAGO therapy, you would
invite me over to the bridge into Caitlin V land and I would go into your world and I

540
00:41:43,571 --> 00:41:46,584
would first give you three affirmations like

541
00:41:46,584 --> 00:41:51,296
Caitlin, I think you're this, I'm so grateful you're that, I really appreciate this about
you.

542
00:41:52,377 --> 00:41:57,319
And then you might say the same thing back to me.

543
00:41:57,319 --> 00:41:59,600
And then you would say, but here's what's on my heart.

544
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,641
Here's what I really want to share.

545
00:42:01,641 --> 00:42:11,165
And then in that context, the only thing that I can do is basically reflect back to you
what I hear you saying, which is so important because language being a poor form of

546
00:42:11,165 --> 00:42:13,566
communication, you know, when...

547
00:42:13,858 --> 00:42:18,269
When we dribble out words, I hate this inside your mind.

548
00:42:18,269 --> 00:42:18,941
I love it.

549
00:42:18,941 --> 00:42:19,431
I hate it.

550
00:42:19,431 --> 00:42:20,602
I'm I'm in between.

551
00:42:20,602 --> 00:42:21,943
There's things I'm ambiguous about.

552
00:42:21,943 --> 00:42:23,374
There's a whole gestalt of things.

553
00:42:23,374 --> 00:42:24,614
And yet people only hear that.

554
00:42:24,614 --> 00:42:26,291
I hate this or I love that or whatever.

555
00:42:26,291 --> 00:42:26,532
Right.

556
00:42:26,532 --> 00:42:28,877
So tell me more about that.

557
00:42:28,877 --> 00:42:29,177
Right.

558
00:42:29,177 --> 00:42:30,047
Tell me more about that.

559
00:42:30,047 --> 00:42:30,488
I get that.

560
00:42:30,488 --> 00:42:32,329
What I think I'm sure you saying is this.

561
00:42:32,329 --> 00:42:33,350
Is that right?

562
00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:35,791
You know, kind of therapeutic language, if you will.

563
00:42:35,791 --> 00:42:40,654
But you're exploring the other person and giving them the space to actually start to.

564
00:42:40,654 --> 00:42:44,896
paint a more comprehensive picture of what's actually going on in their mind, right?

565
00:42:44,896 --> 00:42:46,277
And in their heart.

566
00:42:46,277 --> 00:42:48,867
And I found that to be so incredibly powerful.

567
00:42:48,867 --> 00:42:57,281
The more I would do that and reflect back, even if they were saying something that was
actually factually wrong, like it actually, that didn't actually even happen.

568
00:42:57,283 --> 00:42:59,464
And I would say, tell me more about that, right?

569
00:42:59,464 --> 00:43:01,195
Because you're really getting into their space.

570
00:43:01,195 --> 00:43:04,406
I found myself getting so much more empathetic.

571
00:43:04,430 --> 00:43:06,801
towards their perspective, which was really the goal of it.

572
00:43:06,801 --> 00:43:13,015
And now all of a sudden it's like, okay, I can see this through your eyes and let's take a
different tact on this, right?

573
00:43:13,015 --> 00:43:23,100
And then you invite, then I would invite you over the bridge into, you know, Jeff Gladden
land and we would, we would have reciprocity there, but those kinds of structured,

574
00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:31,265
conversations, you know, if you're listening to this, something like that can be
incredibly helpful at helping you to broach these complex topics.

575
00:43:31,265 --> 00:43:34,306
Because what happens is many times.

576
00:43:35,143 --> 00:43:44,630
If you're not used to these kinds of conversations at some point you're gonna want to jump
into judgment and Judgment is really what kills, you know the whole thing right?

577
00:43:44,630 --> 00:43:51,236
That's like a real problem So you want to avoid judging and this thing you really want to
work on understanding deeply, right?

578
00:43:51,236 --> 00:44:01,003
We're gonna want to jump into Defending explaining, you know the purpose of most
conversations like the conversation that you and I are having right now We're we're waving

579
00:44:01,003 --> 00:44:04,300
our way around agreement and alignment

580
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:04,750
Right?

581
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:06,762
We're looking for those areas where we agree.

582
00:44:06,762 --> 00:44:12,413
We're identifying areas where maybe we don't and we can add more information that can help
us get to an alignment together.

583
00:44:12,413 --> 00:44:13,717
That's right.

584
00:44:13,738 --> 00:44:19,182
When we have a structured conversation like that, the purpose is not to get to agreement
and alignment.

585
00:44:19,182 --> 00:44:21,324
The purpose is to get to understanding.

586
00:44:21,324 --> 00:44:23,195
And that is a one way street.

587
00:44:23,195 --> 00:44:28,189
Like one person is speaking and the other is in the role of understanding and listening.

588
00:44:28,189 --> 00:44:29,710
And then we switch.

589
00:44:29,710 --> 00:44:37,070
And that's why having that kind of structure where I'm not responding to what you're
saying, or if I am responding, I'm responding to make sure that I got it.

590
00:44:37,070 --> 00:44:46,010
Because the experience of getting gotten is one of the most profound and pleasurable
experiences that we can have as a human being, especially when it's by a romantic partner

591
00:44:46,010 --> 00:44:47,930
or someone who is very close to us.

592
00:44:47,930 --> 00:44:57,574
And when we say something aloud and it is perfectly recreated and reflected back to us, it
is as if

593
00:44:58,048 --> 00:45:00,359
It's as if a void is being filled.

594
00:45:00,359 --> 00:45:00,969
That's right.

595
00:45:00,969 --> 00:45:01,770
Right.

596
00:45:01,770 --> 00:45:06,872
It is it is the experience of, know, I am an accelerated evolution coach.

597
00:45:06,872 --> 00:45:17,507
And one of the things that they are certified, one of the things that they examples that
they gave us was like, if you really want sushi, if you have it in your mind that like you

598
00:45:17,507 --> 00:45:19,468
want it, you want sushi for lunch.

599
00:45:19,468 --> 00:45:24,182
The only thing that really satisfies that is getting sushi or.

600
00:45:24,182 --> 00:45:25,842
getting all the things that make up sushi.

601
00:45:25,842 --> 00:45:32,264
So maybe you get like sashimi instead or whatever is the fish you You wanted fish and
rice.

602
00:45:32,264 --> 00:45:33,845
That can satisfy that.

603
00:45:33,845 --> 00:45:35,565
That can recreate it for you.

604
00:45:35,565 --> 00:45:42,417
Or the only third option is if your desire for sushi authentically moves towards something
else.

605
00:45:42,417 --> 00:45:49,129
So you remember that tacos exist and suddenly the desire for sushi has disappeared and the
desire for tacos is appeared, right?

606
00:45:49,129 --> 00:45:52,490
But coming back to this most simplest example,

607
00:45:52,502 --> 00:45:58,324
The thoughts and the feelings that occur inside of us represent in some ways a desire for
sushi.

608
00:45:58,422 --> 00:46:00,105
Like, I hate this thing.

609
00:46:00,105 --> 00:46:02,726
What I really want is for someone else to get that I hate this thing.

610
00:46:02,726 --> 00:46:11,259
And maybe what I mean by hate is the way that it makes me feel, the way that it brings up
my childhood, the impact that it has on my day or my work, the way that I feel like I

611
00:46:11,259 --> 00:46:13,774
can't escape my thoughts when you do them, right?

612
00:46:13,774 --> 00:46:18,274
But the only thing that's gonna satisfy that is getting it met in the real world.

613
00:46:18,274 --> 00:46:27,854
And because it's not a physical thing such as sushi where we can get it met by going on
Grubhub, the only way that we can really get it met is by having someone else reflect it

614
00:46:27,854 --> 00:46:30,134
to us with such accuracy.

615
00:46:30,134 --> 00:46:33,894
And it doesn't mean reflecting, I heard you say that you hate this, right?

616
00:46:33,894 --> 00:46:35,514
But it means being gotten.

617
00:46:35,594 --> 00:46:40,470
When we're recreated with 100 % fidelity, it goes, pssh.

618
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:41,511
The thing disappears.

619
00:46:41,511 --> 00:46:44,981
The desire for sushi is no more after we've eaten the sushi.

620
00:46:44,981 --> 00:46:48,295
And that may sound like a very silly example, but we're doing it all the time.

621
00:46:48,295 --> 00:46:49,296
That's right.

622
00:46:49,296 --> 00:46:49,636
Yeah.

623
00:46:49,636 --> 00:46:51,658
To me, we talked a little bit about this too.

624
00:46:51,658 --> 00:46:55,880
I think a great relationship is knowing and being known and loving and being loved.

625
00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:01,034
And I think this idea of really being gotten, really being known is profoundly.

626
00:47:01,034 --> 00:47:08,619
If you want to talk about an orgasm of sorts, that is an orgasm in and of itself, that
that sensation of actually being gotten, right?

627
00:47:08,619 --> 00:47:10,270
It's, it's orgasmic.

628
00:47:10,498 --> 00:47:11,158
Right.

629
00:47:11,158 --> 00:47:19,318
My definition, my favorite definition there, there's no one scientific definition of
orgasm, but my favorite is the pleasurable release of the buildup of tension.

630
00:47:19,318 --> 00:47:19,901
Okay.

631
00:47:19,901 --> 00:47:26,503
And when we think about not being known as tension and then suddenly being known is like a
pleasurable release.

632
00:47:26,503 --> 00:47:28,543
Yeah, that's exactly right.

633
00:47:28,664 --> 00:47:30,844
You know, that's a really interesting thing.

634
00:47:33,065 --> 00:47:36,826
I've had an insight into the meaning of life actually recently.

635
00:47:37,686 --> 00:47:45,049
which was also happening in a really deep meditative state where I was really in touch
with consciousness and it was just pure love.

636
00:47:45,049 --> 00:47:51,612
I don't know if you've had this experience, you probably have, but it's just like, my
gosh, there's just pure love flowing, right?

637
00:47:51,612 --> 00:47:55,174
And I'm receiving, I'm contributing, I'm doing all these things with it.

638
00:47:55,174 --> 00:47:56,895
And it's like, my gosh.

639
00:47:56,895 --> 00:48:00,336
And then it was like, what does love love to do?

640
00:48:00,656 --> 00:48:02,697
Love loves to create, right?

641
00:48:02,697 --> 00:48:04,482
Since we have this unfolding.

642
00:48:04,482 --> 00:48:08,425
you know, multiverse of a universe itself, creating self perpetuating everything else.

643
00:48:08,425 --> 00:48:08,645
Right.

644
00:48:08,645 --> 00:48:09,786
So it's creation.

645
00:48:09,786 --> 00:48:12,508
Well, what's the feedback loop to consciousness?

646
00:48:12,508 --> 00:48:16,232
God, you know, with that, well, it's joy, it's joy.

647
00:48:16,232 --> 00:48:17,823
So it's love creating joy.

648
00:48:17,823 --> 00:48:23,738
And so for me, my purpose in life is from a loving place to create joy.

649
00:48:23,738 --> 00:48:24,498
Right.

650
00:48:24,498 --> 00:48:28,682
And so when I carry that into my relationships, right.

651
00:48:28,682 --> 00:48:30,503
It's like this is even this conversation.

652
00:48:30,503 --> 00:48:34,198
It's about from a loving place, creating joy and part of that.

653
00:48:34,198 --> 00:48:40,680
Joy is knowing and being known, Loving and being loved, caring, know, whatever you want to
characterize it.

654
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:52,553
But in that sense of creating that intimacy with the goal of creating joy and creating it
together, what I learned about creation is that in creation, there is inherently tension

655
00:48:52,553 --> 00:48:53,723
and release.

656
00:48:53,904 --> 00:48:54,934
Inherently, right?

657
00:48:54,934 --> 00:48:59,745
Because if you're going to create something, you have a vision for it, which creates
tension.

658
00:48:59,745 --> 00:49:02,176
And then as you work to resolve that,

659
00:49:02,274 --> 00:49:03,195
then it releases.

660
00:49:03,195 --> 00:49:08,390
And so it's just like in music, music is all about tension and release, all about tension
and release, right?

661
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:10,482
And so are stories, so are plays.

662
00:49:10,482 --> 00:49:13,305
So almost anything creative that we do is tension and release.

663
00:49:13,305 --> 00:49:15,567
Sexual activity is tension and release.

664
00:49:15,567 --> 00:49:23,104
That's why foreplay is so great because you're actually building tension and you can build
up tension in multiple dimensions, right?

665
00:49:23,104 --> 00:49:25,276
That then the release becomes that much bigger, right?

666
00:49:25,276 --> 00:49:27,144
So it's really quite fascinating.

667
00:49:27,144 --> 00:49:34,736
And that's why sex and erotic exploration between two people can be such a shortcut to
that experience of like universal love and consciousness.

668
00:49:34,736 --> 00:49:35,036
Right?

669
00:49:35,036 --> 00:49:36,107
Not everybody gets there.

670
00:49:36,107 --> 00:49:44,970
And so I don't want to place that as some kind of goal that we should all be aspiring to,
but rather just name it as something that like when you bring mind, body, and soul into

671
00:49:44,970 --> 00:49:52,898
attunement with another person and you release judgment or expectations, like what is
possible is to touch on the divine.

672
00:49:52,898 --> 00:49:55,769
I think that's the coolest thing about and you don't actually need another person.

673
00:49:55,769 --> 00:49:56,799
You can get there on your own.

674
00:49:56,799 --> 00:50:04,421
That's what I like that's what I was experiencing when I was like three and four years
old, just messing around in my bathtub, you know, like an experience of the divine within

675
00:50:04,421 --> 00:50:04,881
us.

676
00:50:04,881 --> 00:50:07,672
And that is why sexual energy is creative energy.

677
00:50:07,672 --> 00:50:10,753
That's why that is what allows for new life to be created.

678
00:50:10,753 --> 00:50:13,794
It really is the most beautiful and profound.

679
00:50:13,794 --> 00:50:22,290
And again, maybe, maybe cheapest and most easeful example of a way that we can get to an
experience of our own divinity.

680
00:50:22,290 --> 00:50:31,134
And the cool thing about that is that once we've touched on it, maybe in one area, whether
that's like meditation or sexuality or something else, then we know that it exists and we

681
00:50:31,134 --> 00:50:41,738
find it, in my experience, it becomes an easier thing to get back to because I have had
the imprint of that experience of pure love or pure consciousness.

682
00:50:41,738 --> 00:50:48,331
And just having touched on it one time affects the rest of our life, even if we never come
back to it again.

683
00:50:48,331 --> 00:50:51,122
Yeah, it impacts us.

684
00:50:53,204 --> 00:50:54,725
yeah, it's really, it's quite beautiful.

685
00:50:54,725 --> 00:51:02,711
It also gives you, a little bit of a guide and inherent guide, understanding that there
will be tension.

686
00:51:02,711 --> 00:51:15,912
The courageous conversations are about, you know, bringing tension into the relationship
with a view of not creating distance, but with a view to creating joy and release.

687
00:51:15,912 --> 00:51:16,292
Right.

688
00:51:16,292 --> 00:51:19,625
And so that's the reason you have courageous conversations.

689
00:51:19,625 --> 00:51:20,876
It's alienate.

690
00:51:20,876 --> 00:51:21,106
Yeah.

691
00:51:21,106 --> 00:51:31,563
That's so profoundly stated because I think for many of us, the examples that we've had of
tension have led to heartbreak, divorce, the splitting apart of our family, irreparable

692
00:51:31,563 --> 00:51:32,934
harm, damage.

693
00:51:32,934 --> 00:51:38,778
But if we allow ourselves to know that tension, I mean, it works with working out,
exercise, right?

694
00:51:38,778 --> 00:51:48,865
We purposely put resistance and tension against our body to train it so that when we are
moving throughout the world, we can do so with strength and flexibility and ease, right?

695
00:51:48,865 --> 00:51:50,570
We choose tension.

696
00:51:50,570 --> 00:51:54,510
and difficulty because it makes us better and stronger.

697
00:51:54,510 --> 00:51:55,253
That's right.

698
00:51:55,253 --> 00:52:06,479
And I think when it comes to relationships, we do ourselves such a disservice when we
avoid conflict and we avoid tension because conflict and tension are some of the best ways

699
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,122
that human beings get into closeness and closer relationship with each other.

700
00:52:12,122 --> 00:52:15,424
You know this, especially with your friendships, right?

701
00:52:15,424 --> 00:52:18,740
We have a different thing around our romantic partnerships, but

702
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:25,344
You know that for those friendships that you've been able to navigate a difficult
experience with, navigate a fight with, have conflict with, and come out the other side,

703
00:52:25,344 --> 00:52:27,415
those friendships are so much stronger.

704
00:52:27,415 --> 00:52:33,758
This is why the strength of our relationship with our families can be so strong because
they're blood, because they're family.

705
00:52:33,758 --> 00:52:37,781
We can move through fights and tension, and we know that we're still going to be there on
the other side of it.

706
00:52:37,781 --> 00:52:45,205
When we avoid tension in our relationship, and you know the more interesting thing is we
have to get on it quickly.

707
00:52:45,205 --> 00:52:47,478
Speaking of having the courageous conversation,

708
00:52:47,478 --> 00:52:55,321
When we feel the conflict or the tension or we're moving in different directions or we're
having the conversations by ourselves with ourselves and not externally with our partner,

709
00:52:55,521 --> 00:53:04,455
the quicker that we can get to that and name it, the more that we can take advantage of
the healthy tension and conflict that can exist, that can cause us to grow, that can allow

710
00:53:04,455 --> 00:53:09,847
us to form a new way of being in the relationship that has us get more of what we want in
the world.

711
00:53:09,847 --> 00:53:16,782
If we let it go for years or decades, that ends up being like a toxic amount of tension.

712
00:53:16,782 --> 00:53:17,822
that we're experiencing.

713
00:53:17,822 --> 00:53:22,842
And when we finally go to break that tension, the conflict can feel very explosive.

714
00:53:22,842 --> 00:53:32,162
And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to bring in a professional, a coach
or a therapist because that tension is great or because you lack the conversational skills

715
00:53:32,162 --> 00:53:40,502
that create safety in the environment, or you find yourself talking past each other and
having that same conversation over and over and over again, there is no shame in bringing

716
00:53:40,502 --> 00:53:46,498
in an expert just the same way that you would bring in a nutritionist or a personal
trainer or a physician.

717
00:53:46,498 --> 00:53:54,343
because they've studied this thing and they know a lot about it and they can see you and
what's going on with you more clearly and help you get the results that you're looking for

718
00:53:54,343 --> 00:53:55,123
faster.

719
00:53:55,123 --> 00:53:56,924
Yeah, no, I think that's right.

720
00:53:56,924 --> 00:54:07,970
I think when tension builds like that and and it's not brought forward, it ultimately
leads to resentment and resentment is really kind of like the acid in the garden of a

721
00:54:07,970 --> 00:54:08,641
relationship.

722
00:54:08,641 --> 00:54:12,743
Once you start resenting that person, it's very hard to get back from that.

723
00:54:12,743 --> 00:54:14,674
That's that is a that is a

724
00:54:14,706 --> 00:54:18,848
long, difficult road to get back to not resent that person.

725
00:54:18,848 --> 00:54:28,666
if you're feeling as you're listening to this, if you're feeling there are some points of
tension, know, the first conversation is to develop the conversation about how are we

726
00:54:28,666 --> 00:54:30,994
going to have this conversation, these conversations, right.

727
00:54:30,994 --> 00:54:38,200
And from there, it's like stepping into those conversations because what you'll find is
that you really avoid resentment altogether because

728
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:44,403
you're building intimacy because in that tension and release, you're actually building joy
and intimacy as you go forward with this, right?

729
00:54:44,403 --> 00:54:46,194
And that's really kind of the idea.

730
00:54:46,194 --> 00:54:50,437
yeah, very And you're building flexibility into your relationship, right?

731
00:54:50,437 --> 00:54:53,959
Relationships break when they become stiff and inflexible.

732
00:54:53,959 --> 00:54:56,370
And that doesn't mean that you won't have boundaries.

733
00:54:56,370 --> 00:54:57,221
Of course, you're to have boundaries.

734
00:54:57,221 --> 00:55:00,242
There's going to be things that are unworkable for you.

735
00:55:00,242 --> 00:55:06,958
But if you can approach it from a place of, and I think this is a key piece that I want
people to take away from this conversation.

736
00:55:06,958 --> 00:55:10,098
and we haven't touched on it so directly, but I'll name it now.

737
00:55:10,538 --> 00:55:25,118
If you get that you can receive any communication and survive, you can go into any
conversation with anyone, especially a spouse or a partner, and you can hear them knowing

738
00:55:25,118 --> 00:55:30,058
that you are resilient and whatever they say, you can be with.

739
00:55:30,898 --> 00:55:34,872
Too many of us, there are so many.

740
00:55:34,872 --> 00:55:38,324
things that we have told ourselves we cannot be with.

741
00:55:38,425 --> 00:55:47,871
If he says that, if she says this, if he tells me he wants to, you know, experience that
with somebody else or whatever it is, like I would die, I cannot be with that.

742
00:55:48,252 --> 00:55:50,933
The thing is that you can.

743
00:55:51,134 --> 00:55:54,556
You can be with everything until you take your last breath.

744
00:55:54,556 --> 00:55:56,418
You have been with everything.

745
00:55:56,418 --> 00:56:03,182
I guarantee you have heard things said to you before that you thought you wouldn't be able
to survive and you have.

746
00:56:03,182 --> 00:56:03,782
Right?

747
00:56:03,782 --> 00:56:09,742
So if you can get that you can be with literally anything and it will not break you or end
you.

748
00:56:09,742 --> 00:56:10,982
It's not to say that it won't hurt.

749
00:56:10,982 --> 00:56:12,582
It's not to say that it won't cause trauma.

750
00:56:12,582 --> 00:56:14,882
But we've learned already that you can heal from that.

751
00:56:14,882 --> 00:56:15,542
Right.

752
00:56:16,482 --> 00:56:27,702
Then you will stop wasting, just squandering your life force energy on repressing yourself
and resenting the people around you.

753
00:56:27,702 --> 00:56:28,642
Yeah.

754
00:56:28,682 --> 00:56:29,682
Yeah, I agree with that.

755
00:56:29,682 --> 00:56:31,002
I agree with that.

756
00:56:31,002 --> 00:56:32,470
You know, I, I, I

757
00:56:32,470 --> 00:56:42,989
I tend to think that when people get together, particularly, well, it can be in
friendships, but I think many times in a romantic relationship, people get together and

758
00:56:42,989 --> 00:56:45,822
they there's a spark between them of some sort.

759
00:56:45,822 --> 00:56:47,913
There's a connection between them.

760
00:56:47,913 --> 00:56:52,327
There's resonance around, you know, could be a number of different things.

761
00:56:52,327 --> 00:56:55,910
And so they step into a relationship, let's say.

762
00:56:56,051 --> 00:56:57,191
And I think.

763
00:56:58,573 --> 00:57:00,494
Unspoken or spoken.

764
00:57:00,994 --> 00:57:10,680
there's a sense of we're feeling this way between us and the relationship will be good if
we can maintain this feeling, right?

765
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,001
If we can just maintain this feeling.

766
00:57:13,261 --> 00:57:21,566
And I think that does a huge disservice to the tension and release elements of creativity.

767
00:57:21,566 --> 00:57:25,898
What you're really, you're not trying to maintain a relationship, you're trying to create
a relationship.

768
00:57:25,898 --> 00:57:28,846
You're trying to create an ever expanding relationship.

769
00:57:28,846 --> 00:57:31,986
that takes you places that you didn't know you could go together.

770
00:57:32,306 --> 00:57:40,266
And so I think it's so important if you're in a relationship and you're listening to this
and you came into it and you're feeling a particular way, but now you're not feeling that

771
00:57:40,266 --> 00:57:42,346
way, realize that that's actually great feedback.

772
00:57:42,346 --> 00:57:50,666
It's like, oh, it's time for us to level up and start having these courageous
conversations so we can recreate, we can reinvent, we can plow under what happened

773
00:57:50,666 --> 00:57:55,206
yesterday and use that as fodder to create what's going to happen today, right?

774
00:57:55,206 --> 00:57:57,806
I think that's kind of a cool thing too.

775
00:57:58,978 --> 00:58:01,598
between the way that we want to feel and the way that we do feel.

776
00:58:01,598 --> 00:58:03,220
Let that be tension.

777
00:58:03,220 --> 00:58:07,222
You know, thinking about the relationship between ambiguity and tension and release.

778
00:58:07,222 --> 00:58:07,562
Yeah.

779
00:58:07,562 --> 00:58:08,062
Right?

780
00:58:08,062 --> 00:58:18,897
And that one of the maybe most difficult to be with aspects of tension is ambiguity
because in those moments we're like, I don't feel the way that I used to feel or the way

781
00:58:18,897 --> 00:58:22,169
that I wanted to feel or the way that I expected that I was going to feel right now.

782
00:58:22,389 --> 00:58:25,002
There can be ambiguity about what's causing that.

783
00:58:25,002 --> 00:58:37,327
or the future of the relationship or, know, and that stuff can contribute to a form of
tension that doesn't feel safe.

784
00:58:38,528 --> 00:58:52,633
And so when we can experience tension while also minimizing ambiguity, and one of the ways
that we do that or that we've evolved to do that in our current world is to commit, right?

785
00:58:52,633 --> 00:58:54,720
To say that no matter what

786
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:59,073
this tension causes us, we're in this relationship, right?

787
00:58:59,073 --> 00:59:04,576
That reduces the amount of ambiguity that we're living with inside of the tent.

788
00:59:05,998 --> 00:59:17,205
If we can allow ourselves to be with, again, all of these things that cause us discomfort
for the service of understanding that we're constantly getting better, we are constantly

789
00:59:17,205 --> 00:59:19,226
growing, we are...

790
00:59:19,574 --> 00:59:28,730
You know, it helps especially I think for me when I look at all of the things that I have
learned from previous relationships, when I look at the sum of all of the work that I have

791
00:59:28,730 --> 00:59:37,425
done to have the relationships that I have in my life and go, you know what, like that was
only the source of me moving through ambiguity of me moving through tension of me having

792
00:59:37,425 --> 00:59:39,506
those courageous conversations where I am today.

793
00:59:39,506 --> 00:59:40,437
It may not be perfect.

794
00:59:40,437 --> 00:59:42,908
It may not be where we expected we were going to be.

795
00:59:43,568 --> 00:59:46,478
But we got here as a result of learning and growing.

796
00:59:46,478 --> 00:59:47,799
We're still learning and growing.

797
00:59:47,799 --> 00:59:49,660
will always be learning and growing.

798
00:59:49,660 --> 00:59:55,284
Relationships will always be a beautiful source of reflection of where else there is to
grow.

799
00:59:55,284 --> 01:00:01,949
We're never going to be done completely baked, completely cooked like we did all the
relating there was to relate.

800
01:00:01,949 --> 01:00:02,730
Right.

801
01:00:02,730 --> 01:00:04,691
That's not what we signed up for.

802
01:00:05,011 --> 01:00:07,653
No, I think that's I think that's really well said.

803
01:00:08,114 --> 01:00:12,676
You you introduced an idea of commitment or committed relationships, right?

804
01:00:13,417 --> 01:00:14,498
And I think that's a

805
01:00:14,498 --> 01:00:16,839
That's another interesting piece.

806
01:00:18,962 --> 01:00:30,561
You know, I think having a committed relationship where you're committing to this person
and it's not necessarily the exclusion of everybody else in your life necessarily, but you

807
01:00:30,561 --> 01:00:32,552
have a committed relationship.

808
01:00:33,934 --> 01:00:35,034
Then.

809
01:00:35,418 --> 01:00:38,137
You know, there is a sense of safety that comes with that.

810
01:00:38,137 --> 01:00:44,422
It's like, no, if, if, if we get sideways, you know, we're committed to working this
through to.

811
01:00:44,502 --> 01:00:49,484
remove the ambiguity to from a loving place, recreate joy here and continue to move
forward.

812
01:00:49,484 --> 01:00:50,284
Right.

813
01:00:50,385 --> 01:00:53,146
Talk to us a little bit about your take on commitment.

814
01:00:53,146 --> 01:00:56,087
Because that's an interesting piece.

815
01:00:56,087 --> 01:01:01,790
And I think, you know, there's lots of there can be ambiguity for people around
commitment.

816
01:01:01,790 --> 01:01:02,260
Right.

817
01:01:02,260 --> 01:01:04,160
So you want to maybe come on.

818
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:04,811
Absolutely.

819
01:01:04,811 --> 01:01:07,192
I have I have a lot of thoughts on this.

820
01:01:08,352 --> 01:01:12,706
When I say commitment, let me clarify what it is that I mean by that.

821
01:01:12,706 --> 01:01:16,268
because I don't necessarily mean like legally married.

822
01:01:16,548 --> 01:01:20,606
There are plenty of people who are married to each other and are not committed at all to
their relationship.

823
01:01:20,606 --> 01:01:21,268
100%.

824
01:01:21,268 --> 01:01:27,214
And there are plenty of people who are very deeply committed to their relationship and are
not married or have never been.

825
01:01:27,655 --> 01:01:33,338
For me, I went through a divorce two years ago after being with my ex-husband for nine
years.

826
01:01:33,338 --> 01:01:40,481
And we were very deeply committed to being in a relationship to each other, almost to the
point of our collective detriment.

827
01:01:41,134 --> 01:01:46,774
we were committed to being married, even though we were no longer in a workable
relationship together.

828
01:01:47,374 --> 01:01:53,054
And so what we have done that I'm incredibly proud of today, and I didn't think this was
gonna be possible.

829
01:01:53,054 --> 01:01:58,374
If you'd asked me two years ago or a year and a half ago, I would have been like, we're
never gonna have that.

830
01:01:58,734 --> 01:02:00,394
Because I don't know how we would get there.

831
01:02:00,394 --> 01:02:05,514
But the truth is we remain in commit, we're still committed to having a relationship to
each other.

832
01:02:05,514 --> 01:02:09,654
We're no longer committed to that relationship being married.

833
01:02:10,252 --> 01:02:18,046
You we have to dissolve the legal relationship between us in order for us to have the kind
of commitment to each other that actually worked for us today.

834
01:02:18,046 --> 01:02:21,927
And the way that we commit to each other today is we were great business partners.

835
01:02:21,927 --> 01:02:23,048
We were good friends.

836
01:02:23,048 --> 01:02:23,978
We made each other laugh.

837
01:02:23,978 --> 01:02:25,199
So those are the things that we do.

838
01:02:25,199 --> 01:02:30,071
I remain committed to his well-being, his happiness, his joy, and he committed to mine.

839
01:02:30,071 --> 01:02:31,972
So the commitment isn't the marriage.

840
01:02:31,972 --> 01:02:32,692
That's right.

841
01:02:32,692 --> 01:02:37,154
The commitment is the spiritual, emotional, mental.

842
01:02:37,710 --> 01:02:41,281
investment and the integrity that you have to that investment.

843
01:02:41,281 --> 01:02:49,093
I had to release the commitment to being married to him to actually serve my spiritual
investment and integrity to this person and to myself.

844
01:02:49,093 --> 01:02:49,674
Right.

845
01:02:49,674 --> 01:02:58,336
And so when I say commitment, what I mean is in order for us to co-create the safety that
is necessary to have some of these courageous conversations to really allow ourselves to

846
01:02:58,336 --> 01:03:01,057
be, to see and be seen.

847
01:03:01,617 --> 01:03:05,998
When we know that we have a commitment, when we're clear on what our commitment is to each
other, anything.

848
01:03:06,466 --> 01:03:08,767
this is something that we sort of skip over.

849
01:03:08,767 --> 01:03:10,168
We do it in business.

850
01:03:10,168 --> 01:03:14,308
We'll do it in fitness and wellness.

851
01:03:14,308 --> 01:03:15,640
I can set a goal for myself.

852
01:03:15,640 --> 01:03:19,692
I get into yoga and my intention is to be present or to be focused or whatever.

853
01:03:19,692 --> 01:03:26,674
But when in our romantic relationships, do we ever lay down our intentions for our
partner?

854
01:03:26,935 --> 01:03:35,778
Or my intention for how I'm going to be in partnership with you is ease and flow and joy
and depth.

855
01:03:36,158 --> 01:03:37,059
Right?

856
01:03:37,059 --> 01:03:40,891
We're doing this on a subconscious level and sometimes we're even doing it consciously to
ourselves.

857
01:03:40,891 --> 01:03:44,744
We're not actually speaking it aloud to another person.

858
01:03:44,884 --> 01:03:53,981
And when we name our intentions, our commitments, what I'm here for, we create an
environment where that person knows where the boundaries are, where they can push all the

859
01:03:53,981 --> 01:03:59,594
way to, and they no longer have to play small or hide the parts of themselves that they
think are unacceptable.

860
01:03:59,655 --> 01:04:04,654
Another great example of this is, and this doesn't mean like being boundaryless, but

861
01:04:04,654 --> 01:04:15,134
If I know where your absolute edges are, the conditions, if you will, for being in a
relationship with you, I think the best example that I can give you is maybe a little bit

862
01:04:15,134 --> 01:04:21,914
too intensive an example, but it certainly paints a picture, is the distinction between
monogamy and non-monogamy.

863
01:04:22,034 --> 01:04:22,894
Right?

864
01:04:22,894 --> 01:04:24,554
I have done both.

865
01:04:24,974 --> 01:04:32,014
If I'm talking to someone for whom non-monogamy is not an option, that's the edge of their
boundary.

866
01:04:32,014 --> 01:04:35,794
They're like, if you need to have multiple partners, I can't be in partnership with you.

867
01:04:35,794 --> 01:04:41,954
That's where my commitment to being in partnership with you or being in marriage with you
or whatever, that's where it ends.

868
01:04:42,194 --> 01:04:44,494
Here are my intentions for you.

869
01:04:45,174 --> 01:04:51,614
I know, and it takes, you know, conversations to get to, because we all define monogamy
differently too.

870
01:04:51,614 --> 01:04:58,242
That's the trick of monogamous relationships is that people don't actually define what
they think is cheating or what they think is non-monogamy.

871
01:04:58,242 --> 01:04:58,492
Right?

872
01:04:58,492 --> 01:05:01,464
So then something happens and they're like, you obviously aren't allowed to do that.

873
01:05:01,464 --> 01:05:02,325
We're monogamous.

874
01:05:02,325 --> 01:05:04,286
And they're like, but I didn't do anything physical.

875
01:05:04,286 --> 01:05:05,287
It was just emotional.

876
01:05:05,287 --> 01:05:05,887
Right?

877
01:05:05,887 --> 01:05:15,864
So just to get back to the point that I'm trying to make, the more that we can communicate
about what we desire from a relationship, our commitment to that relationship, the

878
01:05:15,864 --> 01:05:23,038
boundaries that we have that would cause us to have to pull ourselves back from a
relationship, we've set the playing field.

879
01:05:23,116 --> 01:05:30,130
We've cleared the field in which all of our conversations and our interactions and our
physical and emotional intimacy is going to happen.

880
01:05:30,130 --> 01:05:39,265
And the more that we can set the parameters of that field, the more fully that we will be
able to play and express ourselves in that space because we're not going to be worried

881
01:05:39,265 --> 01:05:45,218
about accidentally tripping over something or accidentally violating the boundary and then
being left.

882
01:05:45,218 --> 01:05:48,860
And we're clear on what that person's intentions are for us.

883
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:53,078
Right now I'm free to be me because I know

884
01:05:53,078 --> 01:05:55,979
the landscape, I know the environment that we're working in.

885
01:05:55,979 --> 01:05:58,190
Yeah, I think I agree with that.

886
01:05:58,190 --> 01:06:03,583
And I think it's really I think it's really important to have those conversations with
your partner.

887
01:06:03,583 --> 01:06:04,503
Right.

888
01:06:04,703 --> 01:06:17,158
Or partners in that and that whatever the situation is to be able to actually to keep
everybody on the same page and to check in with people and that sort of thing.

889
01:06:17,158 --> 01:06:17,449
Right.

890
01:06:17,449 --> 01:06:19,319
So it's it's it's a carrot.

891
01:06:19,319 --> 01:06:21,150
There's a caretaking element.

892
01:06:21,150 --> 01:06:21,890
to it, right?

893
01:06:21,890 --> 01:06:25,363
Part of the commitment is the caretaking of everybody, right?

894
01:06:25,363 --> 01:06:27,974
So that's a piece of it as well.

895
01:06:27,974 --> 01:06:33,467
But I agree that being able to outline what are the parameters, right?

896
01:06:33,467 --> 01:06:34,308
What are the boundaries?

897
01:06:34,308 --> 01:06:43,133
are the, you know, what are the I won't say the rules, but what are the, you know, what
are the contracts that we're making here about how things go down or don't go down or

898
01:06:43,133 --> 01:06:45,705
whatever it is, right?

899
01:06:45,705 --> 01:06:48,416
Is it just leads to an integrity.

900
01:06:48,490 --> 01:06:58,859
And I think ultimately in any style of relationship or relationships, think having the
integrity there becomes really, really important so that people can actually count on you

901
01:06:58,859 --> 01:07:01,381
or we can count on them or whatever it is.

902
01:07:01,381 --> 01:07:01,841
So, yeah.

903
01:07:01,841 --> 01:07:02,462
Yeah.

904
01:07:02,462 --> 01:07:11,800
And sometimes in the non-monogamy conversation, we can get to a place of like people being
self-serving or being selfish.

905
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:12,340
Right?

906
01:07:12,340 --> 01:07:15,663
I want all these things and I don't necessarily care about the impact of all of that on
you.

907
01:07:15,663 --> 01:07:17,494
And that's not what I'm...

908
01:07:17,792 --> 01:07:19,424
referring to or pointing to.

909
01:07:19,424 --> 01:07:30,594
To your point, caretaking, getting that we have an impact on other people, really, whether
that's monogamy or non-monogamy or whatever kind of relationship structure, even talking

910
01:07:30,594 --> 01:07:37,741
about non-romantic, non-sexual relationships, when we can be responsible for the impact
that we have on other people.

911
01:07:37,741 --> 01:07:43,616
And what you were discussing earlier, being proactive about developing empathy.

912
01:07:44,342 --> 01:07:48,324
We got to get that empathy is not a skill that we're all taught.

913
01:07:49,166 --> 01:07:58,512
Women a little bit more so are kind of conditioned to put themselves in other people's
shoes, but it can be in really unhealthy ways.

914
01:07:59,153 --> 01:08:06,357
Women are conditioned to empathize in ways that cause them harm, and at the same time, men
can be conditioned not to experience empathy.

915
01:08:06,968 --> 01:08:15,322
But empathy and being willing to actively put ourselves in the other person's shoes is one
of the ways I think that we can most easily access integrity.

916
01:08:15,323 --> 01:08:20,005
Because then we get, okay, the actions that I take, the things that I say or don't say,
right?

917
01:08:20,005 --> 01:08:22,406
Coming back to the idea of the courageous conversation.

918
01:08:23,047 --> 01:08:31,651
if I don't tell my partner exactly how I feel and what I'm experiencing, then they
actually can't love me.

919
01:08:31,651 --> 01:08:35,443
The way that I'm withholding this information is going to cause them harm.

920
01:08:35,443 --> 01:08:36,898
That's the impact.

921
01:08:36,898 --> 01:08:37,919
Yeah, right.

922
01:08:37,919 --> 01:08:44,183
Suddenly it becomes a lot easier to maintain integrity, I think, because we've got eyes on
the entire situation.

923
01:08:44,624 --> 01:08:45,765
No, I think that's right.

924
01:08:45,765 --> 01:08:48,907
Yeah, it's it's always a work in progress.

925
01:08:48,907 --> 01:08:49,833
And that's the other thing.

926
01:08:49,833 --> 01:08:50,868
It's never static.

927
01:08:50,868 --> 01:08:52,069
It's never static.

928
01:08:52,069 --> 01:09:00,816
And that's part of the joy of constantly recreating the relationship, even in a committed,
let's call it committed relationship.

929
01:09:00,816 --> 01:09:03,978
You're constantly recreating that relationship.

930
01:09:04,142 --> 01:09:07,002
And I think a lot of people just kind of start to take it for granted, right?

931
01:09:07,002 --> 01:09:10,042
They get into a relationship and then now they take each other for granted.

932
01:09:10,042 --> 01:09:12,462
And that's really a death knell, I think.

933
01:09:12,462 --> 01:09:17,682
Yes, you can be quote unquote married, but now you're just handcuffed together in your own
mind, right?

934
01:09:17,682 --> 01:09:20,762
That's the inflexibility that I was referring to too.

935
01:09:20,922 --> 01:09:21,502
Exactly.

936
01:09:21,502 --> 01:09:22,602
It's stiff.

937
01:09:22,762 --> 01:09:23,262
Yeah.

938
01:09:23,262 --> 01:09:23,642
Yeah.

939
01:09:23,642 --> 01:09:24,662
Very cool.

940
01:09:25,042 --> 01:09:27,122
Well, it's a fascinating conversation.

941
01:09:27,242 --> 01:09:33,722
You've obviously covered a lot of territory in your own life and thought process around
all this.

942
01:09:34,190 --> 01:09:36,370
What's on the horizon for you in all this?

943
01:09:36,370 --> 01:09:41,650
Are there cutting edge things that you're thinking about that you haven't shared with us
yet or?

944
01:09:41,830 --> 01:09:43,170
Oh, that's a great question.

945
01:09:43,170 --> 01:09:51,510
Well, I am working on a book right now that's due to be out later in 2025, towards the end
of 2025.

946
01:09:51,650 --> 01:09:59,750
And so I'm right now really more deeply codifying the way that I think about sex and
relationships.

947
01:09:59,750 --> 01:10:04,214
we really touched a lot of those aspects here, which is

948
01:10:04,214 --> 01:10:08,855
It starts at the body, it moves up through the mind, through the emotions of the heart.

949
01:10:08,855 --> 01:10:11,536
It moves through the way that we are raised and conditioned.

950
01:10:11,536 --> 01:10:13,146
It moves through our familial structures.

951
01:10:13,146 --> 01:10:17,838
It moves through our relationship structures and it moves into our spirituality.

952
01:10:17,838 --> 01:10:25,730
And I think so much of the way that we think about sex and relationships, we hit on one,
maybe two of those levels, but none of them exist.

953
01:10:25,730 --> 01:10:28,181
Nothing exists on one or two levels.

954
01:10:28,181 --> 01:10:30,021
Everything exists on every level.

955
01:10:30,021 --> 01:10:33,270
And the way that those levels interact and interplay with each other is

956
01:10:33,270 --> 01:10:39,233
truly probably the greatest indication of how we need to, how we get to.

957
01:10:40,794 --> 01:10:54,271
And so, that's, that's, I don't know that I would say that, that's what I'm playing with
right now is like really putting into words in a way that I have not before exactly the

958
01:10:54,271 --> 01:11:02,866
way that I work with all of my clients and the way that I like to think about sex and
sexuality when I'm educating on it on YouTube or on a stage somewhere.

959
01:11:03,310 --> 01:11:04,310
Beautiful.

960
01:11:04,310 --> 01:11:05,250
Yeah.

961
01:11:05,290 --> 01:11:06,370
Now it's a great approach.

962
01:11:06,370 --> 01:11:08,210
It's a very integrated approach.

963
01:11:08,210 --> 01:11:16,890
What you're doing is you're actually team people up to actually meet each other completely
as a really good point boils down to.

964
01:11:16,890 --> 01:11:22,070
And I think the more points of contact you have between you, right?

965
01:11:22,070 --> 01:11:23,430
Body, mind, spirit, right?

966
01:11:23,430 --> 01:11:24,010
All of that.

967
01:11:24,010 --> 01:11:27,270
And you can kick around all the other things around it.

968
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:28,990
And you can try on different hats.

969
01:11:28,990 --> 01:11:30,154
You can try on different

970
01:11:30,154 --> 01:11:30,954
You shoes.

971
01:11:30,954 --> 01:11:33,395
You can try anything you want to do, right?

972
01:11:33,395 --> 01:11:45,498
And as you start to play with all this and realize that you can have fun and be playful
and yet still be caretaking each other in the process, my gosh, all of a sudden there's a

973
01:11:45,498 --> 01:11:49,399
world of joy out there to be had.

974
01:11:49,980 --> 01:11:53,021
Laughter, intimacy, joy, love, all of it.

975
01:11:53,021 --> 01:11:58,122
It's just sitting there, you know, and it's really, it's free to your point.

976
01:11:58,681 --> 01:12:02,163
It just takes time, attention, and some focus.

977
01:12:02,604 --> 01:12:03,365
It's free.

978
01:12:03,365 --> 01:12:04,275
It's pleasurable.

979
01:12:04,275 --> 01:12:05,226
Yeah.

980
01:12:05,226 --> 01:12:14,394
And you can take that model, yeah, in romantic relationships, sexual relationships, but
all of your relationships, the more points in which you can attune to another person and

981
01:12:14,394 --> 01:12:17,456
be attuned to, the more pleasure that you'll have in life.

982
01:12:17,456 --> 01:12:18,297
That's right.

983
01:12:18,297 --> 01:12:18,827
Exactly.

984
01:12:18,827 --> 01:12:19,928
That's true across the board.

985
01:12:19,928 --> 01:12:21,269
Yeah, beautiful.

986
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,922
Well, such a, such a pleasure having a chance to catch up with you, Caitlin V.

987
01:12:24,922 --> 01:12:27,423
I knew that we were going to have this conversation for the last couple of months.

988
01:12:27,423 --> 01:12:33,327
I think we were introduced by a common, acquaintance and, appreciate the introduction.

989
01:12:33,327 --> 01:12:34,107
So thank you.

990
01:12:34,107 --> 01:12:35,860
was such a pleasure to be here.

991
01:12:35,860 --> 01:12:36,308
Yeah.

992
01:12:36,308 --> 01:12:37,169
Thanks so much.

993
01:12:37,169 --> 01:12:37,519
Yeah.