An 86-minute guide to finding PMF | Rob Snyder (Author, The Power of Pull)

Rob Snyder is the author of The Power of Pull and writes the newsletter The Physics of Startups. He has advised more than 50 startups on growing from zero to $1 million in ARR, drawing on his own experience as a founder who spent two years pushing a product the market didn’t want before accidentally stumbling onto what actually works. In this episode, we walk step by step through his framework for finding product-market fit, from coming up with an idea to closing your first handful of deals.

We discuss:

1. The PULL framework: Project, Unavoidable, List of options, Limitations

2. Where the best startup ideas come from

3. Tactics for cold outreach and running your first sales call

4. Why Rob advises against design partners

5. Goblin mode: what to do when nothing is working

6. How to apply the PULL framework inside larger companies

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Where to find Rob Snyder:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rsnyder1

• Newsletter: https://thephysicsofstartups.substack.com

• Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/4Cic56E1UEbU25P3v14Vkq

• Website: https://robsnyder.org

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Rob Snyder

(01:13) The PULL framework: what makes customers buy

(07:30) The “PULL” acronym

(09:44) How Jump found pull with financial advisors

(13:53) Why pull is discovered, not created

(16:10) Selling to a person, not a company

(17:13) Finding startup ideas through firsthand experience

(22:34) Testing your pull hypothesis with two slides

(26:41) Recognizing real buying intent

(27:24) When solving your own problem works

(29:02) The Hail Mary question that can unlock a pivot

(31:01) Common traps to avoid

(32:50) Quick recap

(34:46) Landing your first customer conversations

(39:18) Outreach benchmarks and diagnosing what isn’t working

(41:27) How to run your first sales call

(46:56) Successful pitch tactics

(49:59) Does your product need to be 10 times better?

(54:08) Closing the deal

(01:00:41) Using the PULL framework to set pricing

(01:02:22) Revising your hypothesis and going into goblin mode

(01:06:56) Designing onboarding to make customers stay

(01:09:28) What churn can teach you about your ideal customer

(01:11:37) Building a repeatable case study factory

(01:16:15) Applying the framework inside established companies

(01:20:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• The PULL framework: https://thephysicsofstartups.substack.com/p/the-pull-framework

• The ultimate guide to JTBD | Bob Moesta (co-creator of the framework): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-jtbd-bob-moesta

• How to find work you love | Bob Moesta (Jobs-to-be-Done co-creator, author of “Job Moves”): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-find-work-you-love-bob-moesta

• Jump: https://jump.ai

• Linear’s secret to building beloved B2B products | Nan Yu (Head of Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/linears-secret-to-building-beloved-b2b-products-nan-yu

• Josh Woodward on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshwoodward/

• Clearly AI: https://clearly-ai.com

• Emily Choi-Greene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilycg

• Spanx: https://spanx.com

• Floodgate: https://www.floodgate.com

• Snoop Dogg on X: https://x.com/SnoopDogg

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Linear: https://linear.app

• “Sell the alpha, not the feature”: The enterprise sales playbook for $1M to $10M ARR | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-enterprise-sales-playbook-1m-to-10m-arr

• How to close $100K+ enterprise deals, step by step | Jen Abel: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-to-close-100k-1m-deals-step-by

• Teero: https://www.teero.com

• A guide for finding product-market fit in B2B: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/finding-product-market-fit

• Retention is the hard part: https://thephysicsofstartups.substack.com/p/retention-is-the-hard-part

• Mark Roberge on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/markroberge/

• Ali Ghodsi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alighodsi/

• Pride and Prejudice: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0414387

• Penguins of Madagascar: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1911658

• Muse: https://muse.ai

• Lessons from 1,000+ YC startups: Resilience, tar pit ideas, pivoting, more | Dalton Caldwell (Y Combinator, Managing Director): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-from-1000-yc-startups

• Lemlist: https://www.lemlist.com

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Recommended books:

• The Power of Pull: What You Need to Know About Customer Demand to Build a Successful Startup (and Why Most Founders Get It Wrong): https://www.amazon.com/Power-Pull-Customer-Successful-Founders/dp/1541705955

• The Nature of Order, Book One: The Phenomenon of Life: An Essay on the Art of Building and the Nature of the Universe: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BHLGZHHD

• The Nature of Order, Book Two: The Process of Creating Life: An Essay on the Art of Building and the Nature of the Universe: https://www.amazon.com/Nature-Order-Book-Two-Creating-ebook/dp/B0F2SMKQT8

• The Nature of Order, Book Three: A Vision of a Living World: An Essay on the Art of Building and the Nature of the Universe: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F2SS62LG

• The Nature of Order, Book Four: The Luminous Ground: https://www.amazon.com/Luminous-Ground-Building-Alexander-Christopher/dp/B00CB5JTI6

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

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Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.