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Welcome to the Accounting for Innovation podcast, where we explore cutting edge strategies and insights into the world of accounting and finance.
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Presented by Decimal and the Radical CPA, each episode dives deep into industry trends.
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Whether you're a seasoned professional or a budding entrepreneur, join us as we unpack key concepts and share practical tips to drive success.
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Today we're talking about outsourcing and accounting best practices and pitfalls, and we're really going to be talking about what it means to have outsourcing in your firm for your team here in the US.
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So our last episode, we kind of talked about what it was like, you know, culturally, to hire people overseas and how you kind of worked with them overseas.
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But today, we really want to focus on what does it mean to your team?
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How does it affect your culture here?
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And how do they kind of work with the team?
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So Matt, how does it happen here?
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Well, I think this is a really important Conversation because I think a lot of the conversations around outsourcing and I'm a, uh, proponent of this.
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You talk about the business reasons why it's good for you as a company or as a firm or as a partnership, but you also need to talk about culturally.
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What does it mean for your team in the US?
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And this is where buy in is such an important thing.
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If you're going to make a business decision to do it, you need to get buy in from the team in the U.
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S.
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That's also helping.
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And because effectively you're growing your team and you need the culture to align.
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It's no different than hiring somebody in the US.
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You need to make sure that they're going to fit with your type of culture.
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And I think a lot of people just think of it more as an asset addition rather than a cultural addition.
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And I actually have a really good example of this.
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A couple of years ago, we bought a company from KPMG.
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And for a lot of tasks, they were using college kits.
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And it was great.
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It worked out really well for them.
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From a cost and quality standpoint, our model was much more to use people in the Philippines.
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Before instantly switching everything and doing it, we spent a lot of time with the remainder of the U.
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S.
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team talking to them about the benefits, allowing them to get to know some of the staff from the Philippines, and effectively getting their buy in for the type of work.
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And it made that integration and that flip much, much smoother and much, much better long term.
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Yeah, I think it's so important because I think Like anything else, if you're going to jump into this and you don't have buy in, uh, your team is gonna maybe not intentionally make it fail, but make it fail
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because
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they're just not like it's not their priority or they don't see the value in it for them.
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So maybe they don't set out to make it fail, but they don't really set out to make it succeed either.
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And so by not setting it out, setting out to make it succeed, it just kind of fails because.
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Like, nobody cares.
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And so I think it's really important as we talk about this is how do you make it successful overall and what does that mean for your team?
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Well, and I think this is where it's just like when you hire a new group of people, if you were going to hire those college kids, you would have to really, to make that successful, you would think through like, how are we going to use them?
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What are they going to do?
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Who is going to oversee that?
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How are they going to work with person X, Y, and Z?
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And You have to think about the same thing with outsourcing and with hiring those people in other countries is how is the work relationship going to go, who is going to do what?
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How are they working together?
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How are they overseeing things?
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And that's also just thinking through how do I put people in a position to be successful?
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Because like you said, if, if you have a team that doesn't have full buy in, even if they do, if they don't know what to do, they're going to struggle on how to do the next step.
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And so you have to think through, how do I position this to be successful?
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And I think you need to think about like all the pieces of it, right?
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So there's like the Slack communication and the cultural things that we touched on last, last episode.
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But I also think, what's the expectation of this team communicating with the other team?
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Do, do their hours cross over at any time?
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Right?
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Like I've worked with global teams before and we used to have our standups at like 10 a.
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m.
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And everybody had to be there and yeah, it was 10 a.
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m.
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for us, but whatever time it was for them.
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Right?
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Like, so, and is there an expectation that they will work together in sync at any time versus async, right?
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Cause.
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Again, there's no right or wrong answer, but it's how you're going to manage all of this work and how your team wants to effectively work with the other team or the extension of your team.
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Right.
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And so I think these are the, the tactical things that people don't think about, right?
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It's not until you have a global team, then you're like, Oh, wait, Well, like if we want to meet at 10 a.
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m., that's 10 o'clock their time at night or whatever time it is.
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And is that really the right time we should meet?
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Or like, you know, it's like kind of the silly, stupid stuff, but that's the stuff that actually makes a big difference when you're trying to figure out how to get the team to work together.
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Well, and all right, let's throw this out there.
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The two most popular outsourcing locations in the world for accounting are India and the Philippines.
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period.
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Those are the two most prevalent currently today, which means that they are about 12 hours behind 10 to 12 hours.
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So your first decision is, am I going to hire them on night shift or am I going to hire them on their day shift?
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And if you're going to hire them on their day shift, which is your nights, has your team ever worked asynchronously?
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Think about this.
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You have work that requires input.
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So your team in the outsource country has a question.
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Somebody wakes up the next day answers that question.
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Well, that question isn't answered till another 24 hours.
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You have a 48 hour turn on that question, and you have to think through that when it comes to asynchronous work and time framing.
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And so what is the best decision for you?
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And I can tell you that there are plenty of companies that have successfully done asynchronous work.
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And there are plenty of companies that have hired night shift.
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So it's just a matter of what is going to work for you.
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Right.
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And I think that's really important.
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It's just like, what's, what's the best practice for your firm.
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It's not one or the other, and one is the right way.
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And one is the wrong way.
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It's just, you know, what works.
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overall for how you work, right?
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Because there are, you know, there are firms in the U.
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S.
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that still make their accountants sit at their computer from nine to five because they expect availability to get work done.
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And like from when I had my firm, I used to have stay at home moms working at four in the morning or five in the morning.
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And like we never, we were always ASAP.
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And like, then, you know, there are still firms that are like, Oh, if they're not on teams from nine to five, I can't work with that person.
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Right.
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So it's
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just, it's
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just what, what the expectation is for your culture.
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And again, there's no right or wrong answer on it.
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So it's interesting because culture and this communication we've talked about actually is a really good lead in to quality control.
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And I'm interested, Jodi, what have What do you think people should consider when it comes to managing quality of output, quality of work in an outsourcing type relationship?
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Cause that's also communication based.
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So it's interesting to me too, because it depends on how you're hiring people.
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Because if you have like just a regular team member sitting in an office in the Philippines, but they're part of your team, you may have.
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Like, it's just like a one on one relationship, right?
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But if you actually outsource something and there's like a process around it, a lot of times there's a QC over it before it even comes back to you.
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So it depends on like the type of outsourcing you've done with like your outsourcing company.
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Right.
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Um, but I would think.
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If you're truly hiring a person who is an extension of your firm, and they're just sitting in an office somewhere globally, that you need to train them just like you would train another person.
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And now, you know, we all know that.
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Things get like people get busy.
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And so they just like fix a mistake and they move on.
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And sometimes it always doesn't get communicated back to the other person.
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And so they continually make that mistake because, gee, you never told them they were doing it wrong.
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Right.
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But that's just poor training overall.
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That doesn't matter where the person's sitting.
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Right.
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But I, I think that's like, again, you have to be intentional about training this person.
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Um, because otherwise your QC is never going to like improve.
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Because you didn't train them.
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Well, and I think that's one of the hard things for a lot of particularly smaller firms, but I would even say bigger firms that test out outsourcing.
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There is an assumption of, Oh, the quality is going to be there.
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These I hired high up and even the cost structure is a third of what I pay somebody in the U S like, I don't need to worry about quality control.
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That's just wrong.
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You have to think about the entire work stream from beginning to end and putting people in a position to be successful.
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And if you view it in that way, also if you view an outsourced hire as equal to a U.
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S.
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hire, That will help you think through how do I train and teach?
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And now back to the show.
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Well, and I also think you have to back up here where you think most firms, smaller firms, especially really have no documented processes and no SOPs.
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So like, if you don't have any of that, It's very hard to train a person sitting next to you, much less train a person in sitting someone 12 hours different.
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Right.
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Yes.
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So I think we got to like kind of step back for a minute and say, okay, what are we really training?
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And like, do we have to start with systematizing and, and kind of putting processes around the work that we do internally?
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And, and you can do it with an outsourced person as well, kind of do it like concurrently, right?
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Like as you figure it out, but that's just good business that has nothing to do with like whether they're outsourced or not, but in most firms it's, it hasn't been done.
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It's all in the partner's head.
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It's all in the manager's head.
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No one has, because like you don't have time, right?
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Like you're so busy doing client work.
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You forget to document it.
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Like, and so the reality is, is you as a business owner have to step back and say, look, if I want to build a business, And not just be a solo practitioner or not just kind of live on a whim because if that person gets sick, like then who picks up that work anyways, and you have to hire a new like person immediately.
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That new person knows nothing of what the old person did anyways.
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Right?
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So that's kind of like the redundancies that small firms have to really think about building into their practices.
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That Maybe they haven't thought about in the past or maybe they haven't focused on the past, but they have to start at least a little bit at a time.
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And I think that the thing about it is today is it's a lot easier to do today than it was five years ago, right?
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Like the, like Loom and Scribe and all those tools make it very easy.
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Easy to do a lot of that documentation that in the old days, you used to have to hire a person full time to figure out how to document process.
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And today, you know, you can spend 10 minutes and get something documented pretty quickly.
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Yeah.
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And let me, let me actually throw a little flip side on that.
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Cause.
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What I just talked to a brand new firm owner the other day, and he was thinking about do I hire some my first hire need to make my first hire?
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Should it be in the Philippines?
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Or should I hire somebody in the US?
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And I said, Hey, either way, do the documentation, do all this stuff.
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If you can, he goes, I need somebody now.
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I was like, okay.
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Well, number one, you're going to really suck at it the first time.
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We all do.
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We're none of us are very good with that first hire.
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We get better every time.
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It is more cost effective for you to hire that first person in the Philippines and to work through all the stuff that you need to do than it is to hire somebody in the U.
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S.
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So your risk profile in that first hire.
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I said, just go hire that person.
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If you're overwhelmed, go hire that person, but document because you're going to end up hiring more and it'll be easier the next time.
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But I said, your risk profile is much lower if you hire that person in the Philippines to help you than it is the U.
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S.
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staff person.
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Also, it will go a lot quicker because it's really hard to hire in the U.
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S.
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right now.
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For sure.
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For sure.
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So one of the things that I'm interested in your opinion on, Jody, that, I think a lot of people struggle with is communication person to person, U.
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S.
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team versus the outsourced team.
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What are some of the ways people can improve communications between team members in other countries that can benefit the firm or company as a whole?
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Well, I think it has to do with having set times to communicate.
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So whether it be a daily standup or every other day or whatever, you know, get that consistency and meeting times and actually talking with them.
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Because again, a lot gets lost over Slack and it's, it's, it's not intentional.
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Um, but it happens.
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Um, and I think it's about consistency and it's about.
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Making sure that you're one team, right?
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So like, um, you know, depending on how your teams work together in, on various projects is maybe it's having the same, just like in the U S you'd have like the same three people working on a project, right?
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Well, again, if you're going to have three people on a project, you know, it's.
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Uh, two people from the Philippines and one person from the US and, you know, make sure that they're, because like anything else, some people like some people, other people like other people, right?
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Some people get along easier.
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So, so, you know, not everyone is everyone's cup of tea.
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So like, yeah.
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You know, you want to make sure that your team members can get along and they need to develop deeper relationships.
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And the only way that's going to happen is by kind of facilitating those relationships.
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You know, one of the other things I would say is that one of the first things we did, uh, when we reached three people in the Philippines was, uh, we put on a remote cultural event.
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I think we played a game of Pictionary and we included them and it was just, I think shared work, by the way, bonds people together and builds relationships better than anything else.
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But it goes a really long way with your outsource team if you're effectively paying them for an hour to have fun with your team.
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That is a really good cultural thing that they aren't used to that can help bond them to you and help make it easier for your teams to bond together is just simply doing random things that can help.
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And there's one company we used, I think, called Confetti.
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And, uh, they help with remote events and that's been a great way to help bond the teams together, uh, is through just doing that every once in a while and being a good person along those lines.
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You know, with working with remote teams, regardless of if they're overseas or not, one of the things that we found, um, helpful is, uh, just opening up, um, like a zoom meeting and working side by side, even though you're not talking as you're just kind of hanging out in an office together online.
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And, you know, say like for two hours on Thursday afternoon from two to four, come join me in the hangout and work on your work together.
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And I think that that goes a lot to culture building as well, regardless of it.
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Your teams are sitting overseas or not.
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And I, I thought it was kind of funny when we started doing it.
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But like, um, I'll say that the younger generation is used to like, just kind of sitting side by side, like in zoom meetings, like, and they enjoy it.
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So regardless, I mean, that's just a remote team thing that I found like, kind of, I'll say silly, but everybody seems to love it.
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So, but again, if you're sitting by yourself all day and it's one thing, A little bit off topic here, but it's one thing if you're a leader and you're in meetings all day versus someone who's doing, um, more tactical or work all day, those team members don't get the social interaction that happens if you're in meetings all day.
00:17:40.852 --> 00:17:46.442
And so for them that, you know, a couple hours a week is actually, you know, exciting.
00:17:47.576 --> 00:18:08.656
We talk a lot about how in and out in a company that is remote only people start and end their day on an island and it's our job to build bridges and so we talk a lot about how do you build bridges and how did you today and I think that's important remote outsourced etc.
00:18:09.106 --> 00:18:16.547
So, Jodi, pivoting really quickly, there's one concern that I hear from a lot of accountants and I'm interested in your thoughts.
00:18:17.356 --> 00:18:18.396
Data security.
00:18:19.916 --> 00:18:20.936
What are the worries?
00:18:20.957 --> 00:18:22.207
Should they be worried?
00:18:22.467 --> 00:18:23.557
Are there concerns?
00:18:23.626 --> 00:18:24.267
What do you think?
00:18:24.656 --> 00:18:29.596
So, you need to be data security concerned about wherever your team member sits.
00:18:29.596 --> 00:18:30.277
It doesn't matter.
00:18:30.277 --> 00:18:32.406
It's not an outsourced thing, like whatever.
00:18:32.807 --> 00:18:41.866
Um, you definitely have to make sure that whoever you're using, Um, Um, you know, has like kind of gone through that audit, right?
00:18:41.866 --> 00:18:48.406
I would say most of the, the out, the, I'll say the legit outsource providers, right?
00:18:48.676 --> 00:18:53.846
Um, I'm sure there's some sketchy ones, but the legit ones, and a lot of them are spending a lot of money marketing.
00:18:53.846 --> 00:18:55.727
So like you could find them pretty easily.
00:18:56.057 --> 00:19:02.416
They have like crazy security concerns where like, Um, the people can't go in with their cell phones, right?
00:19:02.416 --> 00:19:03.886
Like they're kept in lockers, right?
00:19:03.886 --> 00:19:12.076
Like they're way more secure than we are in the U.S and just walking into an office and putting your laptop on your desk, right?
00:19:12.396 --> 00:19:29.672
So, um, you definitely have to do your due diligence, but I would say that the majority of companies, as long as they are a solid outsourcing company, have a lot of Uh, way more security than I would say probably the person you sent a laptop to who's working in their home office.
00:19:30.311 --> 00:19:36.162
You are 100 percent much more likely to run into a security issue related to a U.
00:19:36.162 --> 00:19:36.362
S.
00:19:36.362 --> 00:19:40.541
employee than you are a, an outsourced team member.
00:19:40.892 --> 00:19:43.622
I'll also throw this, all of our team members are remote.
00:19:44.071 --> 00:19:48.412
period, even in the Philippines, even in the four other countries where we have employees.
00:19:48.751 --> 00:19:49.541
So they work from home.
00:19:50.071 --> 00:19:53.672
There are ways that you can make devices secure as well.
00:19:54.021 --> 00:19:55.731
Uh, Rippling does a good job.
00:19:55.731 --> 00:19:57.082
Apple has some stuff.
00:19:57.402 --> 00:20:01.162
there are plenty of ways that you can secure data through software.
00:20:01.696 --> 00:20:04.507
And make it an effective tool for you.
00:20:04.967 --> 00:20:08.166
And it's just a matter of being intentional about it.
00:20:08.166 --> 00:20:12.037
But I do think a lot of the old school of security concerns.
00:20:12.446 --> 00:20:20.096
The other thing is I have yet to be asked by a client about the data security of our team in the Philippines.
00:20:20.332 --> 00:20:24.741
I've been asked about my SOC 2 compliance and all that stuff, which is included in it.
00:20:24.922 --> 00:20:25.771
And that's fine.
00:20:26.571 --> 00:20:31.392
Client to client on a individual engagement basis, it literally has never come up.
00:20:32.142 --> 00:20:40.771
Well, and I think what is different today than was like, um, I'll just say even like five or seven years ago is.
00:20:41.106 --> 00:20:51.346
All these smaller providers who have the sophistication, like rippling, like you said, who really can do a lot more like data security.
00:20:51.346 --> 00:20:53.646
So it's not like you have to figure it out yourself.
00:20:53.797 --> 00:20:56.326
Whereas I think that's like a misconception.
00:20:56.326 --> 00:20:58.676
It's like, Oh my gosh, I don't know how to do data security.
00:20:58.916 --> 00:21:00.207
How could I even begin?
00:21:00.517 --> 00:21:04.626
There are so many providers who can do it for you.
00:21:04.626 --> 00:21:04.692
So.
00:21:04.692 --> 00:21:06.122
So you don't have to worry about it.
00:21:06.152 --> 00:21:06.521
Right.
00:21:06.781 --> 00:21:09.402
And they know how to keep the data secure.
00:21:09.402 --> 00:21:12.692
So it's just a matter of connecting with that provider.
00:21:14.071 --> 00:21:14.451
I agree.
00:21:14.612 --> 00:21:17.192
I mean, the reality is outsourcing is here to stay.
00:21:17.832 --> 00:21:22.682
It is a great leverage point for businesses, and it provides great opportunities.
00:21:23.182 --> 00:21:24.801
You shouldn't be afraid of it.
00:21:25.001 --> 00:21:29.791
And there are a lot of tactical things and people that can help you to be successful.
00:21:30.001 --> 00:21:35.811
Learn from those of us that have made mistakes, and there are plenty of people that are more than willing like me to share.
00:21:36.122 --> 00:21:40.011
And I think it's just one of those things that's, it's the new normal.
00:00:00.644 --> 00:00:08.003
Welcome to the Accounting for Innovation podcast, where we explore cutting edge strategies and insights into the world of accounting and finance.
00:00:08.464 --> 00:00:14.544
Presented by Decimal and the Radical CPA, each episode dives deep into industry trends.
00:00:14.884 --> 00:00:23.164
Whether you're a seasoned professional or a budding entrepreneur, join us as we unpack key concepts and share practical tips to drive success.
00:00:26.208 --> 00:00:39.418
Today we're talking about outsourcing and accounting best practices and pitfalls, and we're really going to be talking about what it means to have outsourcing in your firm for your team here in the US.
00:00:39.429 --> 00:00:48.393
So our last episode, we kind of talked about what it was like, you know, culturally, to hire people overseas and how you kind of worked with them overseas.
00:00:48.393 --> 00:00:52.414
But today, we really want to focus on what does it mean to your team?
00:00:52.573 --> 00:00:54.783
How does it affect your culture here?
00:00:55.084 --> 00:00:57.223
And how do they kind of work with the team?
00:00:57.514 --> 00:01:00.503
So Matt, how does it happen here?
00:01:01.014 --> 00:01:10.638
Well, I think this is a really important Conversation because I think a lot of the conversations around outsourcing and I'm a, uh, proponent of this.
00:01:10.649 --> 00:01:19.828
You talk about the business reasons why it's good for you as a company or as a firm or as a partnership, but you also need to talk about culturally.
00:01:19.828 --> 00:01:22.039
What does it mean for your team in the US?
00:01:22.528 --> 00:01:26.009
And this is where buy in is such an important thing.
00:01:26.009 --> 00:01:31.569
If you're going to make a business decision to do it, you need to get buy in from the team in the U.
00:01:31.569 --> 00:01:31.819
S.
00:01:31.819 --> 00:01:32.918
That's also helping.
00:01:33.623 --> 00:01:39.004
And because effectively you're growing your team and you need the culture to align.
00:01:39.103 --> 00:01:41.823
It's no different than hiring somebody in the US.
00:01:42.063 --> 00:01:45.784
You need to make sure that they're going to fit with your type of culture.
00:01:46.504 --> 00:01:52.683
And I think a lot of people just think of it more as an asset addition rather than a cultural addition.
00:01:53.134 --> 00:01:55.293
And I actually have a really good example of this.
00:01:55.743 --> 00:01:59.224
A couple of years ago, we bought a company from KPMG.
00:01:59.593 --> 00:02:02.853
And for a lot of tasks, they were using college kits.
00:02:03.183 --> 00:02:03.733
And it was great.
00:02:03.754 --> 00:02:05.504
It worked out really well for them.
00:02:05.884 --> 00:02:11.074
From a cost and quality standpoint, our model was much more to use people in the Philippines.
00:02:11.739 --> 00:02:17.098
Before instantly switching everything and doing it, we spent a lot of time with the remainder of the U.
00:02:17.098 --> 00:02:17.318
S.
00:02:17.318 --> 00:02:25.429
team talking to them about the benefits, allowing them to get to know some of the staff from the Philippines, and effectively getting their buy in for the type of work.
00:02:25.788 --> 00:02:30.979
And it made that integration and that flip much, much smoother and much, much better long term.
00:02:32.408 --> 00:02:47.313
Yeah, I think it's so important because I think Like anything else, if you're going to jump into this and you don't have buy in, uh, your team is gonna maybe not intentionally make it fail, but make it fail
00:02:48.074 --> 00:02:48.633
because
00:02:48.903 --> 00:02:54.354
they're just not like it's not their priority or they don't see the value in it for them.
00:02:54.364 --> 00:02:59.313
So maybe they don't set out to make it fail, but they don't really set out to make it succeed either.
00:02:59.753 --> 00:03:04.473
And so by not setting it out, setting out to make it succeed, it just kind of fails because.
00:03:04.963 --> 00:03:05.913
Like, nobody cares.
00:03:06.174 --> 00:03:13.674
And so I think it's really important as we talk about this is how do you make it successful overall and what does that mean for your team?
00:03:14.354 --> 00:03:27.223
Well, and I think this is where it's just like when you hire a new group of people, if you were going to hire those college kids, you would have to really, to make that successful, you would think through like, how are we going to use them?
00:03:27.334 --> 00:03:28.873
What are they going to do?
00:03:28.883 --> 00:03:30.614
Who is going to oversee that?
00:03:30.623 --> 00:03:33.213
How are they going to work with person X, Y, and Z?
00:03:33.213 --> 00:03:43.133
And You have to think about the same thing with outsourcing and with hiring those people in other countries is how is the work relationship going to go, who is going to do what?
00:03:43.364 --> 00:03:44.894
How are they working together?
00:03:44.903 --> 00:03:46.783
How are they overseeing things?
00:03:47.253 --> 00:03:53.623
And that's also just thinking through how do I put people in a position to be successful?
00:03:54.158 --> 00:04:04.408
Because like you said, if, if you have a team that doesn't have full buy in, even if they do, if they don't know what to do, they're going to struggle on how to do the next step.
00:04:04.739 --> 00:04:08.729
And so you have to think through, how do I position this to be successful?
00:04:08.808 --> 00:04:12.299
And I think you need to think about like all the pieces of it, right?
00:04:12.299 --> 00:04:17.509
So there's like the Slack communication and the cultural things that we touched on last, last episode.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:22.238
But I also think, what's the expectation of this team communicating with the other team?
00:04:22.249 --> 00:04:25.059
Do, do their hours cross over at any time?
00:04:25.309 --> 00:04:25.619
Right?
00:04:25.619 --> 00:04:30.678
Like I've worked with global teams before and we used to have our standups at like 10 a.
00:04:30.678 --> 00:04:31.059
m.
00:04:31.119 --> 00:04:33.879
And everybody had to be there and yeah, it was 10 a.
00:04:33.879 --> 00:04:34.028
m.
00:04:34.038 --> 00:04:35.809
for us, but whatever time it was for them.
00:04:35.809 --> 00:04:36.079
Right?
00:04:36.108 --> 00:04:43.038
Like, so, and is there an expectation that they will work together in sync at any time versus async, right?
00:04:43.048 --> 00:04:43.269
Cause.
00:04:43.704 --> 00:04:54.963
Again, there's no right or wrong answer, but it's how you're going to manage all of this work and how your team wants to effectively work with the other team or the extension of your team.
00:04:55.144 --> 00:04:55.463
Right.
00:04:55.713 --> 00:05:01.064
And so I think these are the, the tactical things that people don't think about, right?
00:05:01.244 --> 00:05:06.603
It's not until you have a global team, then you're like, Oh, wait, Well, like if we want to meet at 10 a.
00:05:06.603 --> 00:05:10.343
m., that's 10 o'clock their time at night or whatever time it is.
00:05:10.744 --> 00:05:13.113
And is that really the right time we should meet?
00:05:13.113 --> 00:05:24.934
Or like, you know, it's like kind of the silly, stupid stuff, but that's the stuff that actually makes a big difference when you're trying to figure out how to get the team to work together.
00:05:25.303 --> 00:05:26.834
Well, and all right, let's throw this out there.
00:05:26.923 --> 00:05:32.613
The two most popular outsourcing locations in the world for accounting are India and the Philippines.
00:05:33.223 --> 00:05:33.584
period.
00:05:33.774 --> 00:05:39.903
Those are the two most prevalent currently today, which means that they are about 12 hours behind 10 to 12 hours.
00:05:40.944 --> 00:05:47.564
So your first decision is, am I going to hire them on night shift or am I going to hire them on their day shift?
00:05:48.033 --> 00:05:53.903
And if you're going to hire them on their day shift, which is your nights, has your team ever worked asynchronously?
00:05:54.473 --> 00:05:55.223
Think about this.
00:05:55.553 --> 00:05:57.814
You have work that requires input.
00:05:57.824 --> 00:06:01.593
So your team in the outsource country has a question.
00:06:01.858 --> 00:06:04.228
Somebody wakes up the next day answers that question.
00:06:04.509 --> 00:06:07.209
Well, that question isn't answered till another 24 hours.
00:06:07.209 --> 00:06:14.449
You have a 48 hour turn on that question, and you have to think through that when it comes to asynchronous work and time framing.
00:06:14.858 --> 00:06:16.918
And so what is the best decision for you?
00:06:16.928 --> 00:06:21.629
And I can tell you that there are plenty of companies that have successfully done asynchronous work.
00:06:21.939 --> 00:06:24.439
And there are plenty of companies that have hired night shift.
00:06:24.939 --> 00:06:27.009
So it's just a matter of what is going to work for you.
00:06:27.858 --> 00:06:28.149
Right.
00:06:28.149 --> 00:06:29.709
And I think that's really important.
00:06:29.738 --> 00:06:33.369
It's just like, what's, what's the best practice for your firm.
00:06:33.379 --> 00:06:36.278
It's not one or the other, and one is the right way.
00:06:36.278 --> 00:06:37.418
And one is the wrong way.
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:40.108
It's just, you know, what works.
00:06:40.514 --> 00:06:43.103
overall for how you work, right?
00:06:43.173 --> 00:06:45.553
Because there are, you know, there are firms in the U.
00:06:45.553 --> 00:06:46.024
S.
00:06:46.103 --> 00:06:53.584
that still make their accountants sit at their computer from nine to five because they expect availability to get work done.
00:06:53.634 --> 00:06:59.394
And like from when I had my firm, I used to have stay at home moms working at four in the morning or five in the morning.
00:06:59.394 --> 00:07:02.028
And like we never, we were always ASAP.
00:07:02.408 --> 00:07:08.158
And like, then, you know, there are still firms that are like, Oh, if they're not on teams from nine to five, I can't work with that person.
00:07:08.158 --> 00:07:08.478
Right.
00:07:08.478 --> 00:07:09.514
So it's
00:07:09.514 --> 00:07:10.882
just, it's
00:07:10.882 --> 00:07:14.728
just what, what the expectation is for your culture.
00:07:14.728 --> 00:07:16.769
And again, there's no right or wrong answer on it.
00:07:17.199 --> 00:07:25.488
So it's interesting because culture and this communication we've talked about actually is a really good lead in to quality control.
00:07:26.098 --> 00:07:37.019
And I'm interested, Jodi, what have What do you think people should consider when it comes to managing quality of output, quality of work in an outsourcing type relationship?
00:07:37.038 --> 00:07:38.829
Cause that's also communication based.
00:07:39.108 --> 00:07:43.499
So it's interesting to me too, because it depends on how you're hiring people.
00:07:43.858 --> 00:07:51.139
Because if you have like just a regular team member sitting in an office in the Philippines, but they're part of your team, you may have.
00:07:51.738 --> 00:07:54.439
Like, it's just like a one on one relationship, right?
00:07:54.889 --> 00:08:03.699
But if you actually outsource something and there's like a process around it, a lot of times there's a QC over it before it even comes back to you.
00:08:03.709 --> 00:08:09.408
So it depends on like the type of outsourcing you've done with like your outsourcing company.
00:08:09.408 --> 00:08:09.769
Right.
00:08:10.488 --> 00:08:12.848
Um, but I would think.
00:08:14.329 --> 00:08:27.199
If you're truly hiring a person who is an extension of your firm, and they're just sitting in an office somewhere globally, that you need to train them just like you would train another person.
00:08:27.548 --> 00:08:29.838
And now, you know, we all know that.
00:08:30.228 --> 00:08:33.308
Things get like people get busy.
00:08:33.308 --> 00:08:36.109
And so they just like fix a mistake and they move on.
00:08:36.109 --> 00:08:38.798
And sometimes it always doesn't get communicated back to the other person.
00:08:39.048 --> 00:08:43.369
And so they continually make that mistake because, gee, you never told them they were doing it wrong.
00:08:43.379 --> 00:08:43.798
Right.
00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:46.318
But that's just poor training overall.
00:08:46.328 --> 00:08:48.129
That doesn't matter where the person's sitting.
00:08:48.259 --> 00:08:48.639
Right.
00:08:48.889 --> 00:08:54.418
But I, I think that's like, again, you have to be intentional about training this person.
00:08:54.948 --> 00:08:58.839
Um, because otherwise your QC is never going to like improve.
00:08:59.244 --> 00:09:00.614
Because you didn't train them.
00:09:01.653 --> 00:09:09.004
Well, and I think that's one of the hard things for a lot of particularly smaller firms, but I would even say bigger firms that test out outsourcing.
00:09:09.533 --> 00:09:12.844
There is an assumption of, Oh, the quality is going to be there.
00:09:13.433 --> 00:09:21.244
These I hired high up and even the cost structure is a third of what I pay somebody in the U S like, I don't need to worry about quality control.
00:09:22.333 --> 00:09:23.043
That's just wrong.
00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:32.229
You have to think about the entire work stream from beginning to end and putting people in a position to be successful.
00:09:32.448 --> 00:09:39.109
And if you view it in that way, also if you view an outsourced hire as equal to a U.
00:09:39.109 --> 00:09:39.308
S.
00:09:39.308 --> 00:09:44.379
hire, That will help you think through how do I train and teach?
00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:50.330
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That's syscloud.com.
00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:18.350
And now back to the show.
00:10:18.741 --> 00:10:28.902
Well, and I also think you have to back up here where you think most firms, smaller firms, especially really have no documented processes and no SOPs.
00:10:29.772 --> 00:10:41.282
So like, if you don't have any of that, It's very hard to train a person sitting next to you, much less train a person in sitting someone 12 hours different.
00:10:41.322 --> 00:10:41.761
Right.
00:10:41.812 --> 00:10:42.022
Yes.
00:10:42.812 --> 00:10:50.822
So I think we got to like kind of step back for a minute and say, okay, what are we really training?
00:10:51.211 --> 00:10:59.471
And like, do we have to start with systematizing and, and kind of putting processes around the work that we do internally?
00:11:00.402 --> 00:11:04.642
And, and you can do it with an outsourced person as well, kind of do it like concurrently, right?
00:11:04.642 --> 00:11:16.451
Like as you figure it out, but that's just good business that has nothing to do with like whether they're outsourced or not, but in most firms it's, it hasn't been done.
00:11:17.006 --> 00:11:18.697
It's all in the partner's head.
00:11:18.697 --> 00:11:20.047
It's all in the manager's head.
00:11:20.317 --> 00:11:23.657
No one has, because like you don't have time, right?
00:11:23.657 --> 00:11:25.236
Like you're so busy doing client work.
00:11:25.236 --> 00:11:26.486
You forget to document it.
00:11:26.767 --> 00:11:47.812
Like, and so the reality is, is you as a business owner have to step back and say, look, if I want to build a business, And not just be a solo practitioner or not just kind of live on a whim because if that person gets sick, like then who picks up that work anyways, and you have to hire a new like person immediately.
00:11:48.272 --> 00:11:51.101
That new person knows nothing of what the old person did anyways.
00:11:51.101 --> 00:11:51.322
Right?
00:11:51.322 --> 00:11:57.741
So that's kind of like the redundancies that small firms have to really think about building into their practices.
00:11:58.162 --> 00:12:07.701
That Maybe they haven't thought about in the past or maybe they haven't focused on the past, but they have to start at least a little bit at a time.
00:12:07.751 --> 00:12:14.081
And I think that the thing about it is today is it's a lot easier to do today than it was five years ago, right?
00:12:14.081 --> 00:12:19.716
Like the, like Loom and Scribe and all those tools make it very easy.
00:12:19.856 --> 00:12:27.756
Easy to do a lot of that documentation that in the old days, you used to have to hire a person full time to figure out how to document process.
00:12:27.817 --> 00:12:32.856
And today, you know, you can spend 10 minutes and get something documented pretty quickly.
00:12:33.517 --> 00:12:33.716
Yeah.
00:12:33.716 --> 00:12:36.736
And let me, let me actually throw a little flip side on that.
00:12:36.797 --> 00:12:37.197
Cause.
00:12:37.831 --> 00:12:46.511
What I just talked to a brand new firm owner the other day, and he was thinking about do I hire some my first hire need to make my first hire?
00:12:46.522 --> 00:12:47.761
Should it be in the Philippines?
00:12:48.042 --> 00:12:49.631
Or should I hire somebody in the US?
00:12:49.792 --> 00:12:53.381
And I said, Hey, either way, do the documentation, do all this stuff.
00:12:53.381 --> 00:12:55.231
If you can, he goes, I need somebody now.
00:12:55.412 --> 00:12:56.052
I was like, okay.
00:12:56.481 --> 00:12:59.961
Well, number one, you're going to really suck at it the first time.
00:13:00.081 --> 00:13:01.011
We all do.
00:13:01.091 --> 00:13:03.322
We're none of us are very good with that first hire.
00:13:03.322 --> 00:13:04.761
We get better every time.
00:13:05.851 --> 00:13:15.912
It is more cost effective for you to hire that first person in the Philippines and to work through all the stuff that you need to do than it is to hire somebody in the U.
00:13:15.912 --> 00:13:16.251
S.
00:13:16.611 --> 00:13:20.011
So your risk profile in that first hire.
00:13:20.427 --> 00:13:21.557
I said, just go hire that person.
00:13:21.777 --> 00:13:29.076
If you're overwhelmed, go hire that person, but document because you're going to end up hiring more and it'll be easier the next time.
00:13:29.386 --> 00:13:34.897
But I said, your risk profile is much lower if you hire that person in the Philippines to help you than it is the U.
00:13:34.897 --> 00:13:35.067
S.
00:13:35.067 --> 00:13:35.716
staff person.
00:13:36.136 --> 00:13:39.986
Also, it will go a lot quicker because it's really hard to hire in the U.
00:13:39.986 --> 00:13:40.167
S.
00:13:40.167 --> 00:13:40.466
right now.
00:13:41.177 --> 00:13:41.716
For sure.
00:13:41.986 --> 00:13:42.517
For sure.
00:13:43.506 --> 00:13:54.172
So one of the things that I'm interested in your opinion on, Jody, that, I think a lot of people struggle with is communication person to person, U.
00:13:54.172 --> 00:13:54.501
S.
00:13:54.511 --> 00:13:57.052
team versus the outsourced team.
00:13:57.601 --> 00:14:07.432
What are some of the ways people can improve communications between team members in other countries that can benefit the firm or company as a whole?
00:14:08.897 --> 00:14:12.826
Well, I think it has to do with having set times to communicate.
00:14:12.826 --> 00:14:22.086
So whether it be a daily standup or every other day or whatever, you know, get that consistency and meeting times and actually talking with them.
00:14:22.356 --> 00:14:27.287
Because again, a lot gets lost over Slack and it's, it's, it's not intentional.
00:14:27.657 --> 00:14:29.427
Um, but it happens.
00:14:29.817 --> 00:14:35.136
Um, and I think it's about consistency and it's about.
00:14:35.422 --> 00:14:38.022
Making sure that you're one team, right?
00:14:38.022 --> 00:14:52.011
So like, um, you know, depending on how your teams work together in, on various projects is maybe it's having the same, just like in the U S you'd have like the same three people working on a project, right?
00:14:52.192 --> 00:14:56.022
Well, again, if you're going to have three people on a project, you know, it's.
00:14:56.142 --> 00:15:06.361
Uh, two people from the Philippines and one person from the US and, you know, make sure that they're, because like anything else, some people like some people, other people like other people, right?
00:15:06.511 --> 00:15:07.692
Some people get along easier.
00:15:09.591 --> 00:15:14.782
So, so, you know, not everyone is everyone's cup of tea.
00:15:14.981 --> 00:15:15.701
So like, yeah.
00:15:16.062 --> 00:15:21.442
You know, you want to make sure that your team members can get along and they need to develop deeper relationships.
00:15:21.442 --> 00:15:24.922
And the only way that's going to happen is by kind of facilitating those relationships.
00:15:25.711 --> 00:15:35.422
You know, one of the other things I would say is that one of the first things we did, uh, when we reached three people in the Philippines was, uh, we put on a remote cultural event.
00:15:35.772 --> 00:15:46.447
I think we played a game of Pictionary and we included them and it was just, I think shared work, by the way, bonds people together and builds relationships better than anything else.
00:15:47.147 --> 00:15:55.086
But it goes a really long way with your outsource team if you're effectively paying them for an hour to have fun with your team.
00:15:55.897 --> 00:16:08.846
That is a really good cultural thing that they aren't used to that can help bond them to you and help make it easier for your teams to bond together is just simply doing random things that can help.
00:16:08.846 --> 00:16:11.517
And there's one company we used, I think, called Confetti.
00:16:11.902 --> 00:16:23.152
And, uh, they help with remote events and that's been a great way to help bond the teams together, uh, is through just doing that every once in a while and being a good person along those lines.
00:16:23.272 --> 00:16:41.657
You know, with working with remote teams, regardless of if they're overseas or not, one of the things that we found, um, helpful is, uh, just opening up, um, like a zoom meeting and working side by side, even though you're not talking as you're just kind of hanging out in an office together online.
00:16:41.966 --> 00:16:49.886
And, you know, say like for two hours on Thursday afternoon from two to four, come join me in the hangout and work on your work together.
00:16:50.187 --> 00:16:53.927
And I think that that goes a lot to culture building as well, regardless of it.
00:16:54.136 --> 00:16:56.017
Your teams are sitting overseas or not.
00:16:56.057 --> 00:17:00.256
And I, I thought it was kind of funny when we started doing it.
00:17:00.267 --> 00:17:11.416
But like, um, I'll say that the younger generation is used to like, just kind of sitting side by side, like in zoom meetings, like, and they enjoy it.
00:17:11.426 --> 00:17:18.797
So regardless, I mean, that's just a remote team thing that I found like, kind of, I'll say silly, but everybody seems to love it.
00:17:18.807 --> 00:17:40.592
So, but again, if you're sitting by yourself all day and it's one thing, A little bit off topic here, but it's one thing if you're a leader and you're in meetings all day versus someone who's doing, um, more tactical or work all day, those team members don't get the social interaction that happens if you're in meetings all day.
00:17:40.852 --> 00:17:46.442
And so for them that, you know, a couple hours a week is actually, you know, exciting.
00:17:47.576 --> 00:18:08.656
We talk a lot about how in and out in a company that is remote only people start and end their day on an island and it's our job to build bridges and so we talk a lot about how do you build bridges and how did you today and I think that's important remote outsourced etc.
00:18:09.106 --> 00:18:16.547
So, Jodi, pivoting really quickly, there's one concern that I hear from a lot of accountants and I'm interested in your thoughts.
00:18:17.356 --> 00:18:18.396
Data security.
00:18:19.916 --> 00:18:20.936
What are the worries?
00:18:20.957 --> 00:18:22.207
Should they be worried?
00:18:22.467 --> 00:18:23.557
Are there concerns?
00:18:23.626 --> 00:18:24.267
What do you think?
00:18:24.656 --> 00:18:29.596
So, you need to be data security concerned about wherever your team member sits.
00:18:29.596 --> 00:18:30.277
It doesn't matter.
00:18:30.277 --> 00:18:32.406
It's not an outsourced thing, like whatever.
00:18:32.807 --> 00:18:41.866
Um, you definitely have to make sure that whoever you're using, Um, Um, you know, has like kind of gone through that audit, right?
00:18:41.866 --> 00:18:48.406
I would say most of the, the out, the, I'll say the legit outsource providers, right?
00:18:48.676 --> 00:18:53.846
Um, I'm sure there's some sketchy ones, but the legit ones, and a lot of them are spending a lot of money marketing.
00:18:53.846 --> 00:18:55.727
So like you could find them pretty easily.
00:18:56.057 --> 00:19:02.416
They have like crazy security concerns where like, Um, the people can't go in with their cell phones, right?
00:19:02.416 --> 00:19:03.886
Like they're kept in lockers, right?
00:19:03.886 --> 00:19:12.076
Like they're way more secure than we are in the U.S and just walking into an office and putting your laptop on your desk, right?
00:19:12.396 --> 00:19:29.672
So, um, you definitely have to do your due diligence, but I would say that the majority of companies, as long as they are a solid outsourcing company, have a lot of Uh, way more security than I would say probably the person you sent a laptop to who's working in their home office.
00:19:30.311 --> 00:19:36.162
You are 100 percent much more likely to run into a security issue related to a U.
00:19:36.162 --> 00:19:36.362
S.
00:19:36.362 --> 00:19:40.541
employee than you are a, an outsourced team member.
00:19:40.892 --> 00:19:43.622
I'll also throw this, all of our team members are remote.
00:19:44.071 --> 00:19:48.412
period, even in the Philippines, even in the four other countries where we have employees.
00:19:48.751 --> 00:19:49.541
So they work from home.
00:19:50.071 --> 00:19:53.672
There are ways that you can make devices secure as well.
00:19:54.021 --> 00:19:55.731
Uh, Rippling does a good job.
00:19:55.731 --> 00:19:57.082
Apple has some stuff.
00:19:57.402 --> 00:20:01.162
there are plenty of ways that you can secure data through software.
00:20:01.696 --> 00:20:04.507
And make it an effective tool for you.
00:20:04.967 --> 00:20:08.166
And it's just a matter of being intentional about it.
00:20:08.166 --> 00:20:12.037
But I do think a lot of the old school of security concerns.
00:20:12.446 --> 00:20:20.096
The other thing is I have yet to be asked by a client about the data security of our team in the Philippines.
00:20:20.332 --> 00:20:24.741
I've been asked about my SOC 2 compliance and all that stuff, which is included in it.
00:20:24.922 --> 00:20:25.771
And that's fine.
00:20:26.571 --> 00:20:31.392
Client to client on a individual engagement basis, it literally has never come up.
00:20:32.142 --> 00:20:40.771
Well, and I think what is different today than was like, um, I'll just say even like five or seven years ago is.
00:20:41.106 --> 00:20:51.346
All these smaller providers who have the sophistication, like rippling, like you said, who really can do a lot more like data security.
00:20:51.346 --> 00:20:53.646
So it's not like you have to figure it out yourself.
00:20:53.797 --> 00:20:56.326
Whereas I think that's like a misconception.
00:20:56.326 --> 00:20:58.676
It's like, Oh my gosh, I don't know how to do data security.
00:20:58.916 --> 00:21:00.207
How could I even begin?
00:21:00.517 --> 00:21:04.626
There are so many providers who can do it for you.
00:21:04.626 --> 00:21:04.692
So.
00:21:04.692 --> 00:21:06.122
So you don't have to worry about it.
00:21:06.152 --> 00:21:06.521
Right.
00:21:06.781 --> 00:21:09.402
And they know how to keep the data secure.
00:21:09.402 --> 00:21:12.692
So it's just a matter of connecting with that provider.
00:21:14.071 --> 00:21:14.451
I agree.
00:21:14.612 --> 00:21:17.192
I mean, the reality is outsourcing is here to stay.
00:21:17.832 --> 00:21:22.682
It is a great leverage point for businesses, and it provides great opportunities.
00:21:23.182 --> 00:21:24.801
You shouldn't be afraid of it.
00:21:25.001 --> 00:21:29.791
And there are a lot of tactical things and people that can help you to be successful.
00:21:30.001 --> 00:21:35.811
Learn from those of us that have made mistakes, and there are plenty of people that are more than willing like me to share.
00:21:36.122 --> 00:21:40.011
And I think it's just one of those things that's, it's the new normal.
