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Welcome to the Trauma Theapists podcast. My name is Gymickferson.
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I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
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those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
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So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
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guest today, Doctor Ishan Shivenon. Ishan, welcome, Thank you so
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much for having me. You're welcome. So. Doctor Schivenon was
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born into an ancient lineage of yogi's is spanning twenty
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one generations, and spent the first twenty years of his
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life in a Himalayan monastery. He's a spiritual innovator, coach,
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and founder of Yoga of Immortals, a modern practice grounded
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in authentic Yogic tradition. You combine science, storytelling, and spirituality
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to help individuals and organizations manage burnout, enhance performance, and
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cultivate inner balance. His work spans wellness, corporate training, Plan three,
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and global community building with a mission to uplift millions
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through compassionate practical spirituality. Yishan, Welcome to the podcast. Before
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we get going share with our listeners where you're from
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originally and where you are currently.
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So presently I'm in Texas, Austin. I had to do
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some work in training and educating people on the benefits
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of meditation and how we can use technological support to
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enhance the quality of meditation. So we were working on
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some things on that.
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And originally I grew up in India in the monastery.
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It's in Rajasthan, so it would be the western part
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of India.
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And then I moved to Mauritius, which is Africa. So
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I spent about seven years there and after reach in
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twenty I moved to the United States for conducting research
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on mental health.
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Okay, that's kind of a good segue here, So how
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does all this start for you? I mean in terms
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of growing up in a monastery, living in a monastery,
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and getting to the point where you're in Austin, Texas,
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teaching educating people about the benefits of yoga and meditation. Simply,
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how did that start for you?
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So when I was in the monastery, I got to
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help a certain type of people. These people were very
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self motivated. So if you come seeking out a monastery
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and you want to learn. Then half of the battle
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is already done. You have already resolved most of your traumas,
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your issues, and now you are just looking for a way.
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And such a person you provide a nudge and they
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end up finding inner peace. They were ready, they were thirsty,
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looking for water. And then when I came out of
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the monastery, I started to meet normal people, so to speak.
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I realized that so much of the world were in
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denial about the problem being their own mental health, and
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even when I tried to teach them, it was very
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difficult to reach to them with whatever modality I was offering.
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So I realized, I must do something that can take
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away the friction that comes between the merrytator and the
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meditator meditation guide. Until that friction is removed, help cannot
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be provided. And at the same time, I wanted to
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see what is the extent of benefits that these ancient
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yogic modalities can provide to the world, Because every time
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I would see somebody from West would come and just
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take a very small aspect, very small aspect of Asian traditions,
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the healing modalities, and then somehow they would become huge
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in the world when they will be presented in a
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certain manner, and that make me really appreciate these Asian
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healing modalities, the native medicines, the Indian knowledge systems, because
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I started to see there is not just the personal
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benefit value in it. Maybe there is value enough that
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there can be nation building with these modalities, and that
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was what excited me on the prospect of research number one,
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how to breach the gap between the patient and the
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care facilitator, and second to see the extent of benefits
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that can be provided to the world based on these
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integative health care modalities.
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Thank you for that. So initially you said when you
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were in the monastery, you were experiencing people coming to
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you or the monastery, and you said they had done
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a lot of most of the work. Explain that why
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had it been that those people coming had done most
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of the work understanding their own traumas For example.
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There is a cycle when it comes to trauma. Times
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people will take that situation and build over it, not
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realizing that the foundation of the structure that we have
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built there is some rot. Insight, but human beings are
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very resilient. They learn to live with disabilities, may be
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physiological or emotional or mental and many times they become
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at ease with the situation they are in. I have
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seen people be at ease in a toxic relationship, people
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be at ease with their own inability to form meaningful
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relations I have seen people in a comfort zone. But
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then something changes inside and that is the biggest change.
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I call it the Eureka movement. When the thought starts
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to come I deserve better. A person can live a
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lifetime and such a thought may not come inside them.
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And this thought that I deserve better, it makes us
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do wonderful things. And we need to believe this. We
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need to accept this I deserve better. If it is
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just superficial that thought, then I won't take an action.
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But these people, they have sat with this thought that
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I deserve better. That thought has made them go on
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a quest. And when they go on that external quest
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looking for something, they are almost always ready to go
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on an internal quest. And this small thought can take lifetimes.
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And that's why I'm saying. Those people who have come,
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they've all to come with that self respect. They've already
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come with that thought that yes, I deserve something. I
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want something, and in my mind I have it. Now
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I just need to find a path to it, so
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that generally looking for a path, so they have that
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mental resilience because just taking that step, mister guy, and
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going somewhere like this, it requires extreme courage. And if
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they can present it, then they are ready. Yes, agree
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that saying that when the student is ready, the master appears.
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What it actually saying is it is only when the
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student is ready really search for the master. Say that again,
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when the student is ready, only then he will open
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his eyes to the master. Search the master. Otherwise who cares?
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How how did someone like yourselfishad, who was in a
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monastery for twenty years? How do you? How do you
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get out? How do you leave? When? When is the
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time to leave?
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So with me, there were fantastical incidences that occurred if
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I look at the previous generations. So my father, he
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wasn't born in the monast He was chosen as an
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eight year old, so he was a child was growing
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up in being impoverished in an India that was broken
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and dividing and still coming out from the traumas and
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wounds of colonial rule. So at that time he was
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the eighth son, the youngest of a widow. So at
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that time monks could come and recruit boys into the order.
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So my father was chosen. But this lineage, in this lineage,
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you can be a family man, a householder, provided your
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whole family becomes part of the order and starts to practice.
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So when the time came, my father did marry, and
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he chose to raise a family in the monastery. And
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if things would have happened in a perfect world, I
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would never have had exposure of the outside world. I
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would never have come out. I was so happy. I
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was content, Or you could say I did not know
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any better, because how can I seek that which I
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do not know? So in the book, I talk about
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a sequence of events that happened. First, my father took
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a choice that he was ready to teach the ways
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of the monastery to outsiders, something that has not done
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been done for hundreds of years. And those outside elders
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would come. I would listen to stories of the world,
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and to a young boy, those stories create desire because
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they would talk about simple things, maybe for a normal person,
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but to meet you know, the first time I remember
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somebody said that there is a sixteen wheeler tuck or
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some multiple wheels, and I was dumbfounded. How can something
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had so many wheels because in my head the maximum
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I could conjure is a four wheeler, a two wheeler,
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sixteen wheels, and I dad dreamed for weeks thinking how
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that thing would look like. So these stories inspired me.
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And then there was a cataclysm flood that destroyed the monastery,
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which made us all relocate to the boundaries of a city.
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So then I got to see more things, and not
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always there was all. There was disgust, and there was love,
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and there was ownership. After some time that okay, the
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world is much bigger than the small place, and like
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you have ownership towards the monastery, and you want to
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make pretty flowers, pretty trees, make it your own. Then
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the desire started to come. This world is mine and
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I must make it better. So, yes, the sequence of
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event does happen. Some things are in your control. And
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then sometimes it is Destiny who wings and nods and says,
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let me see what I can do with his life.
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So I would say I'm a product of both free
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will and the universe having a good day.
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Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Ishan Shivanan.
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His book is called the Practice of Immortality Amongst God
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to discovering your unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity. Shan,
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I want to get a little more clarity on I mean,
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not every monk writes a book. Not every monk comes
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to the West and shares their wisdom and educates. What
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was it about you? What did you feel? What did
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you see where you're like, I want to start sharing this.
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I want to start maybe helping other people. What was that?
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Talk to us about that?
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So as a monk, you provide theological services like a clergy.
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So in the Eastern traditions, your life is intertwined with
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a sense of spirituality. So the Sanatan culture from where
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I come from, there is birth a very important time.
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Then there are sixteen times in your life and a
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child is born, when you buy a house, when you die.
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That is when you have that monk in your life
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and they help you in theology and not just that.
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There are other practices also that the monk teaches. There
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are so you have to understand India being a culture
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that is thousands of years old, certain traditions act like
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cognitive behavioral therapist or psychologist or psychiatrists to the population.
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So I come from such a tradition that believed in
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health education and my job, the job that I was
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doing as the monk was prati presso so trauma release.
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Pati pressor is a certain technique, a modality where you
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go through your own emotions, and it's the most important
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modality that you have to do. It's Buddha did it,
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he called it, and he talked about it as Jata Katayan.
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The great monk Mahabi did it. He called it Jati's
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muran and the same as Pati presser. That you can't
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live with that trauma. And it's important because imagine if
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you're going into a marriage, then the monk says you
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must do preti pressa because you can't go in a
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marriage with old baggage. Or if you're having a kid,
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you must meditate because if you are carrying the generational traumas,
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then it's going to be hard. So that was my job.
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I would do parti pressor for all the people of
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the order, and I would teach them and I would
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do things with them. But I was very localized. I
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was talking to people who look like me. I was
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talking to people who work of the same faith, of
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the same culture, and just doing it as something that
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need to be done. But it was around twenty fifteen
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when I moved to Africa, and in Mauritious Africa, it
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is like United States but a bit better, as in
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it is probably one of the only cultures where so
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many groups have assimilated together. So there is the Creole population,
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the Caucasian population, the South Asian population, the Asian population,
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every single demographic on one island. They have a very
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strong and robust economy. They have things like universal healthcare,
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and the crime rates are extremely low, so it's very
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It's like utopia heaven on earth. And I was there
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and at the same time this place being such a
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magnificent place, the government being wrong and the people being
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having everything, there was still an rising issue of cases
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of mental health problems with the youth. So it was
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at that time that I myself had a son, and
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because I had a son, I wasn't traveling much, so
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I couldn't do my work as the clergy, as the
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chaplain of my community because I'm in this new place.
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And then it was at that time the Education Department
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approached me. They had these radical ideas which are not
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radical now. In fact, they were pioneers at that time
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that they want to bring integrative health care to the youth,
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where they want to use ancient modalities like yoga meditation
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so that the root cause of mental health problems can
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be sorted out. And they understood that at least the
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people that I was dealing with at that time, they
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were highly educated and they saw the value in it
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that we need to change the lifestyles of these kids.
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So when I went into the room these schools that
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were given to me, these universities, I found a very
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mixed up of various children, demographics, cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, languages,
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and I found that I was not at all prepared
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for the challenge. These are all new people. And as
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I said, I was used to dealing with a certain
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group of people that were just so happy to be
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in my presence and just teach what I have to
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set And I was like the Guru, and there were flowers,
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and I was elated by just breathing. You know, I
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just had to show up and there would be people
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falling over me. And here I am sitting with lousy
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teenagers who are ready to throw at me rotten tomatoes.
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So it was a very good experience, and I really
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had to dig deep to reach their hearts, and that
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was a challenge I was willing to accept. And over
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periods of time, years upon years, university after university, school
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system after school system, you realize that there is this
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change that are coming in children who practice such modalities
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versus the children who do not practice or do not
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have access to that. And then it became a matter
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of we need to research on what that tangible will change.
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Is that if there is a benefit to that student,
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that benefit cannot just be the teachers being happy that, oh,
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the student is doing so well, or the child we have,
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oh I am doing so well, or it just cannot
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be the numbers that they are getting in their examinations.
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There needs to be a proper study and such a
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document needs to be presented to the various education systems
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around the world that we are failing and we must
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provide more tools to the children who go to the
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education systems. And it is for that reason then that
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escalated to now let us start to collect heart evidence,
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tangible evidence on the real benefits of these modalities in
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a person's life. From there it became all about research.
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So progressively things changed and the thought patterns changed, the
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thoughts change in a manner that the goal has always
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been the same to help people, But it is just
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I keep on finding new paths to reach to my goal,
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and I would believe more efficient paths than the paths
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I was exposed to as a child in the monastery.
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Let's talk about your book, The Practice of Immortality Amongst God,
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Discovering your Unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity. Why
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did you write the book.
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I wrote the book because I would be presenting papers
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in various universities in North America, and a lot of
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the times people will ask these protocols that you talk about,
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how can we practice them? How can we bring the
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same magnificent results in our own life? What is the practice?
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And also, people were very curious about my story because
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when I was researching with a group of physicians, or
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I would be working with multidisciplinary doctors, I would be
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the odd one out in the room, and they would
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be very curious that how you came to be. Where
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do these modalities come from? Because when we talk about yoga,
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every American thinks they know yoga. But if we take
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that same yoga that American thinks is yoga back to
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the monasteries in India, the monks will scratch their head
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and say, what the hell is this? So in their head,
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the American is doing something very ancient and exotic, and
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you know, something that raises the Kundalini and whatnot that,
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but I don't know what it is. It's is something new.
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It's like it's like cuisine. You know, when you are
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eating a pizza in Italy versus a piasa in New
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York versus a pizza in somewhere else. It's they have
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their own flavor to it. And at what point does
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the pizza stop being a piecea and it becomes something
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completely different, like a calzone. So what calzone is to
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a pizza is what American yoga is to yoga. It
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is something something that has some ingredients, but I don't
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know what it is. So when I would make people
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do protocols and I would call them yog but there
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would be nothing like the yogu in the studios, then
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people would get curious. People are curious and curious in
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a good way. So that's why I wanted to write
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a book. Because number one, so that they know the story,
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they know some background, and they can learn my life
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lessons that I learned. Plus I have an interesting life,
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so I wanted to share that. But more than anything,
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I wanted to share the structure in which meditation is
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taught in these ancient practices, and the structure in such
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a manner that it can easily be integrated with anyone
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who is living a modern life. So when I wrote
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the chapters of the book, after each chapter, I have
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a system on a person how they can progressively start
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to merit it. So my promise is that anybody who
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reads the book, or anyone who has the desire to meditate,
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and this is the last book you ever read on meditation,
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forget the story, forget the fun, forget my satire that
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I put in the book. If you just focus on
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the instructions that are there after each chapter, then this
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is a very powerful course. And sometimes when I travel
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America and I see that, you know, there are the
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small courses that people teach, and they chart thousands and
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thousands of dollars for it, and then even I'm thinking
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I should have done that, But I didn't do that.
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I just made a book, and inside that book I
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put in all those systems, and that was the objective
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that nobody should suffer and everybody should benefit and move
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towards the higher plane of consciousness.
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Obviously there are many types and for meditation, what type
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of meditation are you speaking about here or teaching?
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I'm talking about the foundation of meditation. When we look
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at meditation, then we look at the Himalian traditions as
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pioneers and why their systems are so unique because they
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have had time, generations eon civilizations to practice and to
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master the art, even some things as beautiful as vishad vishadiyog.
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So vishadijog is this concept that this tradition has that
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sorrow has the greatest power because it can lead you
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to enlightenment, and the enlightenment that comes from sorrow the
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process is called vishad yog. So the monks they say
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that if sadness has come to your life, this is
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not something to cry about, but this is something to
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celebrate because in that state of sadness, the wail of
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illusion in which you are living, that is broken, and
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suddenly you are at this precipice, at a point of
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great change and transformation. If that sadness would not have come,
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this opportunity of growth would not have come. So then
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the whole meditation system is that, Yes, it is sad
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and unfortunate that we had to go through these sequence
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of events, but it is also glorious because now that
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it has happened, let us see what best we can
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do with it. So these meditation systems they rely if
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I just look at the structure of them, they rely
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a lot on visualization, affirmation, mantra, breath work. So on
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the surface you will see this awareness and this together
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forms the physical structure of that meditation. But when we
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start to go internal to the subtle beauty of these meditations,
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they are much more profound and difficult to express in words.
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It is something that a person must feel an experience
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on their own.
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Yes, you've talked a lot about you mentioned frequently mental
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health in this interview. Here do by definition, is a
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monk yourself, maybe someone who also or similarly has mental
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health issues but understands how to deal with it or
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manage it. Or obviously you're human beings, right among a
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human being? You're not? Are you free from mental health issues?
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No? Definitely not. In fact, when I would study the
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history of previous monks, then there are these great monks,
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and when you listen to their stories, a psychiatrist would
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definitely diagnose them. There are the monk called Mirabi who
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just fell in love with the concept of divinity and
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devotion so much so that she could hear the divine
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voices something like John of Arc but less violent. So
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psychiatrists would say, this is his ophenia and just just
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take all the poetry out of that story. A lot
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of the monks that I lived with, the I could
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say they had OCD. And they were very particular about
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their practice, very particular about their discipline. So the common
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world is looking at them and thinking that this is
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what discipline looks like, this is what austerity looks like.
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But easily this is what OCD also looks like. And
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again I can look at the great test greatness of
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a monk and I could make it redundant with the
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diet no stick. But I believe where the monks thrive
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is that they have issues, but rather than seeing that
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issue as a deabilitating burden that they have to carry
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somehow they have learned to make their own issue their superpowerful.
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That they are different, they understand it. They are far
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removed from what is considered normal in society and there
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is a point that comes in the monk's life that
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he sees that, Okay, I am not like everyone else.
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What is it that makes me different? Now? What is
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it that makes me difference? I can either live my
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life crying about it, being sad about it, medicating myself
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about it, or I can look at ancient systems and
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traditions of people who went through the same thing and
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utilize that that problem as a superpower, as a gift
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from the universe. And I see this that OCD, which
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would have crippled a person in the modern world, is
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now making them thrive in the spiritual world so much
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so that now I cannot even call it a disorder.
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It is a superpower. And I think that is the
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lesson that we have to learn from these people who
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who choose to treat their body and mind like a temple,
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and who have this love affair with themselves. And I
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think that is very very important. But to answer your question, yes,
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there are mental health issues, and this is the beauty
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that I talked about, But there is also a dark
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side about being a monk and having mental health issues
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because if not given the correct teaching. Because I come
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from a meditative tradition, So I had it easy. It
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was all about self growth, self development and raising your consciousness.
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But what if you are a monk in a religious
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background and religion teaches you shame. Religion teaches you that
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any problem that you're going through, it is a punishment
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from the Almighty. So there has been some lack in
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your prayer that you are suffering from this. So that
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cycle of guilt and shame can also lead to some
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form of self medication. And I see this when I
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work with clergy from other faiths, that substance abuse is
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a big problem because what you do with your mental
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health and what you do and your own faith is
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not enough. And that is where I feel that without
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the meditative modalities and the wisdom that East can bring
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to the table, and if it is just religion that
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we are relying upon theological concepts and philosophies, then that
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can spiral the mental health also to a very very
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dark place.
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So yes, both both the spectrums fascinating. Ishan. Again, the
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book is called The Practice of Immortality. Amongst guid to
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discovering your unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity is
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Sean How do people learn more about you and your book.
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It's the best way.
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So the book is available wherever books are available. I
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was elited to know that the book is a national
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bestseller now, so people around the world are enjoying the practices.
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So maybe from Amazon, maybe from your local bookstore.
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Can I just say that on Amazon it has almost
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fifteen hundred five star ratings.
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I did not know that.
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Amazing anyway, so go ahead.
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Yes. So if you really want to know me and
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my work, practice the teachings in the book, and if
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you feel you benefit and you want to reach out
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to me to give gratitude or to learn more, then
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you can find me on LinkedIn as well under Ishan Shewan.
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Okay, we'll have all that linked up here at the
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show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com.
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Is Shan amazing. You're welcome back anytime. Thank you so
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much for being here.
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Thank you, mister guy. It was a pleasure. In my
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regards to all your listeners, Thank you.
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Welcome to the Trauma Theapists podcast. My name is Gymickferson.
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I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
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those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
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So five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome
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00:00:20.760 --> 00:00:23.199
back to the podcast. Very excited to have as my
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guest today, Doctor Ishan Shivenon. Ishan, welcome, Thank you so
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much for having me. You're welcome. So. Doctor Schivenon was
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born into an ancient lineage of yogi's is spanning twenty
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one generations, and spent the first twenty years of his
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life in a Himalayan monastery. He's a spiritual innovator, coach,
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and founder of Yoga of Immortals, a modern practice grounded
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in authentic Yogic tradition. You combine science, storytelling, and spirituality
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to help individuals and organizations manage burnout, enhance performance, and
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cultivate inner balance. His work spans wellness, corporate training, Plan three,
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and global community building with a mission to uplift millions
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through compassionate practical spirituality. Yishan, Welcome to the podcast. Before
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we get going share with our listeners where you're from
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originally and where you are currently.
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So presently I'm in Texas, Austin. I had to do
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some work in training and educating people on the benefits
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of meditation and how we can use technological support to
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enhance the quality of meditation. So we were working on
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some things on that.
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And originally I grew up in India in the monastery.
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It's in Rajasthan, so it would be the western part
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of India.
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And then I moved to Mauritius, which is Africa. So
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I spent about seven years there and after reach in
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twenty I moved to the United States for conducting research
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on mental health.
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Okay, that's kind of a good segue here, So how
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does all this start for you? I mean in terms
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of growing up in a monastery, living in a monastery,
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and getting to the point where you're in Austin, Texas,
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teaching educating people about the benefits of yoga and meditation. Simply,
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how did that start for you?
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So when I was in the monastery, I got to
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help a certain type of people. These people were very
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self motivated. So if you come seeking out a monastery
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and you want to learn. Then half of the battle
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is already done. You have already resolved most of your traumas,
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your issues, and now you are just looking for a way.
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And such a person you provide a nudge and they
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end up finding inner peace. They were ready, they were thirsty,
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looking for water. And then when I came out of
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the monastery, I started to meet normal people, so to speak.
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I realized that so much of the world were in
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denial about the problem being their own mental health, and
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even when I tried to teach them, it was very
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difficult to reach to them with whatever modality I was offering.
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So I realized, I must do something that can take
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away the friction that comes between the merrytator and the
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meditator meditation guide. Until that friction is removed, help cannot
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be provided. And at the same time, I wanted to
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see what is the extent of benefits that these ancient
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yogic modalities can provide to the world, Because every time
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I would see somebody from West would come and just
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take a very small aspect, very small aspect of Asian traditions,
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the healing modalities, and then somehow they would become huge
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in the world when they will be presented in a
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certain manner, and that make me really appreciate these Asian
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healing modalities, the native medicines, the Indian knowledge systems, because
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I started to see there is not just the personal
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benefit value in it. Maybe there is value enough that
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there can be nation building with these modalities, and that
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was what excited me on the prospect of research number one,
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how to breach the gap between the patient and the
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care facilitator, and second to see the extent of benefits
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that can be provided to the world based on these
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integative health care modalities.
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Thank you for that. So initially you said when you
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were in the monastery, you were experiencing people coming to
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you or the monastery, and you said they had done
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a lot of most of the work. Explain that why
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had it been that those people coming had done most
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of the work understanding their own traumas For example.
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There is a cycle when it comes to trauma. Times
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people will take that situation and build over it, not
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realizing that the foundation of the structure that we have
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built there is some rot. Insight, but human beings are
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very resilient. They learn to live with disabilities, may be
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physiological or emotional or mental and many times they become
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at ease with the situation they are in. I have
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seen people be at ease in a toxic relationship, people
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be at ease with their own inability to form meaningful
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relations I have seen people in a comfort zone. But
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then something changes inside and that is the biggest change.
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I call it the Eureka movement. When the thought starts
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to come I deserve better. A person can live a
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lifetime and such a thought may not come inside them.
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And this thought that I deserve better, it makes us
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do wonderful things. And we need to believe this. We
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need to accept this I deserve better. If it is
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just superficial that thought, then I won't take an action.
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But these people, they have sat with this thought that
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I deserve better. That thought has made them go on
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a quest. And when they go on that external quest
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looking for something, they are almost always ready to go
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on an internal quest. And this small thought can take lifetimes.
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And that's why I'm saying. Those people who have come,
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they've all to come with that self respect. They've already
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come with that thought that yes, I deserve something. I
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want something, and in my mind I have it. Now
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I just need to find a path to it, so
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that generally looking for a path, so they have that
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mental resilience because just taking that step, mister guy, and
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going somewhere like this, it requires extreme courage. And if
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they can present it, then they are ready. Yes, agree
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that saying that when the student is ready, the master appears.
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What it actually saying is it is only when the
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student is ready really search for the master. Say that again,
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when the student is ready, only then he will open
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his eyes to the master. Search the master. Otherwise who cares?
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How how did someone like yourselfishad, who was in a
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monastery for twenty years? How do you? How do you
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get out? How do you leave? When? When is the
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time to leave?
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So with me, there were fantastical incidences that occurred if
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I look at the previous generations. So my father, he
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wasn't born in the monast He was chosen as an
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eight year old, so he was a child was growing
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up in being impoverished in an India that was broken
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and dividing and still coming out from the traumas and
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wounds of colonial rule. So at that time he was
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the eighth son, the youngest of a widow. So at
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that time monks could come and recruit boys into the order.
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So my father was chosen. But this lineage, in this lineage,
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you can be a family man, a householder, provided your
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whole family becomes part of the order and starts to practice.
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So when the time came, my father did marry, and
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he chose to raise a family in the monastery. And
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if things would have happened in a perfect world, I
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would never have had exposure of the outside world. I
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would never have come out. I was so happy. I
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was content, Or you could say I did not know
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any better, because how can I seek that which I
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do not know? So in the book, I talk about
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a sequence of events that happened. First, my father took
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a choice that he was ready to teach the ways
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of the monastery to outsiders, something that has not done
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been done for hundreds of years. And those outside elders
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would come. I would listen to stories of the world,
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and to a young boy, those stories create desire because
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they would talk about simple things, maybe for a normal person,
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but to meet you know, the first time I remember
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somebody said that there is a sixteen wheeler tuck or
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some multiple wheels, and I was dumbfounded. How can something
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had so many wheels because in my head the maximum
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I could conjure is a four wheeler, a two wheeler,
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sixteen wheels, and I dad dreamed for weeks thinking how
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that thing would look like. So these stories inspired me.
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And then there was a cataclysm flood that destroyed the monastery,
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which made us all relocate to the boundaries of a city.
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So then I got to see more things, and not
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always there was all. There was disgust, and there was love,
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and there was ownership. After some time that okay, the
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world is much bigger than the small place, and like
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you have ownership towards the monastery, and you want to
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make pretty flowers, pretty trees, make it your own. Then
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the desire started to come. This world is mine and
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I must make it better. So, yes, the sequence of
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event does happen. Some things are in your control. And
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then sometimes it is Destiny who wings and nods and says,
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let me see what I can do with his life.
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So I would say I'm a product of both free
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will and the universe having a good day.
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Let me just remind everyone I'm speaking with Ishan Shivanan.
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His book is called the Practice of Immortality Amongst God
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to discovering your unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity. Shan,
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I want to get a little more clarity on I mean,
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not every monk writes a book. Not every monk comes
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to the West and shares their wisdom and educates. What
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was it about you? What did you feel? What did
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you see where you're like, I want to start sharing this.
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I want to start maybe helping other people. What was that?
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Talk to us about that?
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So as a monk, you provide theological services like a clergy.
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So in the Eastern traditions, your life is intertwined with
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a sense of spirituality. So the Sanatan culture from where
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I come from, there is birth a very important time.
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Then there are sixteen times in your life and a
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child is born, when you buy a house, when you die.
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That is when you have that monk in your life
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and they help you in theology and not just that.
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There are other practices also that the monk teaches. There
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are so you have to understand India being a culture
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that is thousands of years old, certain traditions act like
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cognitive behavioral therapist or psychologist or psychiatrists to the population.
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So I come from such a tradition that believed in
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health education and my job, the job that I was
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doing as the monk was prati presso so trauma release.
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Pati pressor is a certain technique, a modality where you
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go through your own emotions, and it's the most important
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modality that you have to do. It's Buddha did it,
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he called it, and he talked about it as Jata Katayan.
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The great monk Mahabi did it. He called it Jati's
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muran and the same as Pati presser. That you can't
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live with that trauma. And it's important because imagine if
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you're going into a marriage, then the monk says you
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must do preti pressa because you can't go in a
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marriage with old baggage. Or if you're having a kid,
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you must meditate because if you are carrying the generational traumas,
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then it's going to be hard. So that was my job.
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I would do parti pressor for all the people of
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the order, and I would teach them and I would
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do things with them. But I was very localized. I
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was talking to people who look like me. I was
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talking to people who work of the same faith, of
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the same culture, and just doing it as something that
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need to be done. But it was around twenty fifteen
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when I moved to Africa, and in Mauritious Africa, it
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is like United States but a bit better, as in
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it is probably one of the only cultures where so
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many groups have assimilated together. So there is the Creole population,
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the Caucasian population, the South Asian population, the Asian population,
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every single demographic on one island. They have a very
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strong and robust economy. They have things like universal healthcare,
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and the crime rates are extremely low, so it's very
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It's like utopia heaven on earth. And I was there
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and at the same time this place being such a
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magnificent place, the government being wrong and the people being
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having everything, there was still an rising issue of cases
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of mental health problems with the youth. So it was
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at that time that I myself had a son, and
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because I had a son, I wasn't traveling much, so
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I couldn't do my work as the clergy, as the
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chaplain of my community because I'm in this new place.
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And then it was at that time the Education Department
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approached me. They had these radical ideas which are not
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radical now. In fact, they were pioneers at that time
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that they want to bring integrative health care to the youth,
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where they want to use ancient modalities like yoga meditation
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so that the root cause of mental health problems can
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be sorted out. And they understood that at least the
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people that I was dealing with at that time, they
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were highly educated and they saw the value in it
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that we need to change the lifestyles of these kids.
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So when I went into the room these schools that
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were given to me, these universities, I found a very
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mixed up of various children, demographics, cultural backgrounds, religious backgrounds, languages,
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and I found that I was not at all prepared
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for the challenge. These are all new people. And as
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I said, I was used to dealing with a certain
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group of people that were just so happy to be
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in my presence and just teach what I have to
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set And I was like the Guru, and there were flowers,
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and I was elated by just breathing. You know, I
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just had to show up and there would be people
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falling over me. And here I am sitting with lousy
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teenagers who are ready to throw at me rotten tomatoes.
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So it was a very good experience, and I really
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had to dig deep to reach their hearts, and that
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was a challenge I was willing to accept. And over
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periods of time, years upon years, university after university, school
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system after school system, you realize that there is this
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change that are coming in children who practice such modalities
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versus the children who do not practice or do not
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have access to that. And then it became a matter
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of we need to research on what that tangible will change.
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Is that if there is a benefit to that student,
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that benefit cannot just be the teachers being happy that, oh,
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the student is doing so well, or the child we have,
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oh I am doing so well, or it just cannot
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be the numbers that they are getting in their examinations.
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There needs to be a proper study and such a
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document needs to be presented to the various education systems
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around the world that we are failing and we must
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provide more tools to the children who go to the
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education systems. And it is for that reason then that
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escalated to now let us start to collect heart evidence,
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tangible evidence on the real benefits of these modalities in
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a person's life. From there it became all about research.
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So progressively things changed and the thought patterns changed, the
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thoughts change in a manner that the goal has always
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been the same to help people, But it is just
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I keep on finding new paths to reach to my goal,
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and I would believe more efficient paths than the paths
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I was exposed to as a child in the monastery.
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Let's talk about your book, The Practice of Immortality Amongst God,
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Discovering your Unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity. Why
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did you write the book.
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I wrote the book because I would be presenting papers
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in various universities in North America, and a lot of
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the times people will ask these protocols that you talk about,
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how can we practice them? How can we bring the
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same magnificent results in our own life? What is the practice?
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And also, people were very curious about my story because
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when I was researching with a group of physicians, or
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I would be working with multidisciplinary doctors, I would be
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the odd one out in the room, and they would
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be very curious that how you came to be. Where
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do these modalities come from? Because when we talk about yoga,
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every American thinks they know yoga. But if we take
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that same yoga that American thinks is yoga back to
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the monasteries in India, the monks will scratch their head
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and say, what the hell is this? So in their head,
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the American is doing something very ancient and exotic, and
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you know, something that raises the Kundalini and whatnot that,
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but I don't know what it is. It's is something new.
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It's like it's like cuisine. You know, when you are
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eating a pizza in Italy versus a piasa in New
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York versus a pizza in somewhere else. It's they have
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their own flavor to it. And at what point does
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the pizza stop being a piecea and it becomes something
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completely different, like a calzone. So what calzone is to
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a pizza is what American yoga is to yoga. It
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is something something that has some ingredients, but I don't
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know what it is. So when I would make people
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do protocols and I would call them yog but there
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would be nothing like the yogu in the studios, then
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people would get curious. People are curious and curious in
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a good way. So that's why I wanted to write
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a book. Because number one, so that they know the story,
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they know some background, and they can learn my life
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lessons that I learned. Plus I have an interesting life,
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so I wanted to share that. But more than anything,
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I wanted to share the structure in which meditation is
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taught in these ancient practices, and the structure in such
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a manner that it can easily be integrated with anyone
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who is living a modern life. So when I wrote
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the chapters of the book, after each chapter, I have
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a system on a person how they can progressively start
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to merit it. So my promise is that anybody who
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reads the book, or anyone who has the desire to meditate,
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and this is the last book you ever read on meditation,
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forget the story, forget the fun, forget my satire that
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I put in the book. If you just focus on
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the instructions that are there after each chapter, then this
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is a very powerful course. And sometimes when I travel
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America and I see that, you know, there are the
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small courses that people teach, and they chart thousands and
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thousands of dollars for it, and then even I'm thinking
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I should have done that, But I didn't do that.
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I just made a book, and inside that book I
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put in all those systems, and that was the objective
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that nobody should suffer and everybody should benefit and move
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towards the higher plane of consciousness.
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Obviously there are many types and for meditation, what type
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of meditation are you speaking about here or teaching?
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I'm talking about the foundation of meditation. When we look
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at meditation, then we look at the Himalian traditions as
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pioneers and why their systems are so unique because they
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have had time, generations eon civilizations to practice and to
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master the art, even some things as beautiful as vishad vishadiyog.
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So vishadijog is this concept that this tradition has that
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sorrow has the greatest power because it can lead you
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to enlightenment, and the enlightenment that comes from sorrow the
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process is called vishad yog. So the monks they say
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that if sadness has come to your life, this is
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not something to cry about, but this is something to
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celebrate because in that state of sadness, the wail of
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illusion in which you are living, that is broken, and
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suddenly you are at this precipice, at a point of
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great change and transformation. If that sadness would not have come,
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this opportunity of growth would not have come. So then
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the whole meditation system is that, Yes, it is sad
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and unfortunate that we had to go through these sequence
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of events, but it is also glorious because now that
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it has happened, let us see what best we can
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do with it. So these meditation systems they rely if
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I just look at the structure of them, they rely
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a lot on visualization, affirmation, mantra, breath work. So on
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the surface you will see this awareness and this together
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forms the physical structure of that meditation. But when we
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start to go internal to the subtle beauty of these meditations,
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they are much more profound and difficult to express in words.
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It is something that a person must feel an experience
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on their own.
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Yes, you've talked a lot about you mentioned frequently mental
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health in this interview. Here do by definition, is a
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monk yourself, maybe someone who also or similarly has mental
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health issues but understands how to deal with it or
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manage it. Or obviously you're human beings, right among a
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human being? You're not? Are you free from mental health issues?
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No? Definitely not. In fact, when I would study the
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history of previous monks, then there are these great monks,
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and when you listen to their stories, a psychiatrist would
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definitely diagnose them. There are the monk called Mirabi who
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just fell in love with the concept of divinity and
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devotion so much so that she could hear the divine
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voices something like John of Arc but less violent. So
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psychiatrists would say, this is his ophenia and just just
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take all the poetry out of that story. A lot
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of the monks that I lived with, the I could
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say they had OCD. And they were very particular about
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their practice, very particular about their discipline. So the common
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world is looking at them and thinking that this is
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what discipline looks like, this is what austerity looks like.
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But easily this is what OCD also looks like. And
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again I can look at the great test greatness of
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a monk and I could make it redundant with the
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diet no stick. But I believe where the monks thrive
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is that they have issues, but rather than seeing that
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issue as a deabilitating burden that they have to carry
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somehow they have learned to make their own issue their superpowerful.
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That they are different, they understand it. They are far
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removed from what is considered normal in society and there
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is a point that comes in the monk's life that
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he sees that, Okay, I am not like everyone else.
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What is it that makes me different? Now? What is
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it that makes me difference? I can either live my
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life crying about it, being sad about it, medicating myself
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about it, or I can look at ancient systems and
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traditions of people who went through the same thing and
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utilize that that problem as a superpower, as a gift
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from the universe. And I see this that OCD, which
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would have crippled a person in the modern world, is
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now making them thrive in the spiritual world so much
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so that now I cannot even call it a disorder.
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It is a superpower. And I think that is the
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lesson that we have to learn from these people who
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who choose to treat their body and mind like a temple,
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and who have this love affair with themselves. And I
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think that is very very important. But to answer your question, yes,
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there are mental health issues, and this is the beauty
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that I talked about, But there is also a dark
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side about being a monk and having mental health issues
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because if not given the correct teaching. Because I come
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from a meditative tradition, So I had it easy. It
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was all about self growth, self development and raising your consciousness.
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But what if you are a monk in a religious
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background and religion teaches you shame. Religion teaches you that
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any problem that you're going through, it is a punishment
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from the Almighty. So there has been some lack in
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your prayer that you are suffering from this. So that
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cycle of guilt and shame can also lead to some
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form of self medication. And I see this when I
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work with clergy from other faiths, that substance abuse is
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a big problem because what you do with your mental
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health and what you do and your own faith is
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not enough. And that is where I feel that without
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the meditative modalities and the wisdom that East can bring
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to the table, and if it is just religion that
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we are relying upon theological concepts and philosophies, then that
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can spiral the mental health also to a very very
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dark place.
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So yes, both both the spectrums fascinating. Ishan. Again, the
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book is called The Practice of Immortality. Amongst guid to
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discovering your unlimited potential for health, happiness and positivity is
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Sean How do people learn more about you and your book.
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It's the best way.
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So the book is available wherever books are available. I
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was elited to know that the book is a national
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bestseller now, so people around the world are enjoying the practices.
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So maybe from Amazon, maybe from your local bookstore.
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Can I just say that on Amazon it has almost
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fifteen hundred five star ratings.
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I did not know that.
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Amazing anyway, so go ahead.
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Yes. So if you really want to know me and
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my work, practice the teachings in the book, and if
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you feel you benefit and you want to reach out
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to me to give gratitude or to learn more, then
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you can find me on LinkedIn as well under Ishan Shewan.
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Okay, we'll have all that linked up here at the
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show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com.
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Is Shan amazing. You're welcome back anytime. Thank you so
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much for being here.
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Thank you, mister guy. It was a pleasure. In my
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regards to all your listeners, Thank you.
