EP 3:51 The Family Dynamics of Chemsex Users

WEBVTT
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:06.080
What do you say to a parent who uh uh what do you what would you say what do you say to parents anyway?
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:23.839
I mean, you know, how do how do you separate, how do you not blame yourself, how do you not personalize it, internalize it, um, and and keep from you know, that that fear and that anger, like what what is a what is your advice, most your your best advice for parents of addicts?
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:25.679
Chemsex.
00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:33.439
Sexualized drug use among men who have sex with men, typically involving methamphetamine, methadrone, and GHB, among others.
00:00:33.679 --> 00:00:42.799
Chemsex misuse is a worldwide epidemic that needs attention, dialogue, and hope for those lost in it, which is the purpose of the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:51.920
Please note the views expressed by the host and guest on this podcast are not to be taken as medical advice, and the content around sex and drug use can be triggering.
00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:54.320
All right, welcome back to the Aftermath Podcast.
00:00:54.399 --> 00:00:55.439
I'm your host, Dallas.
00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:56.320
Thank you for being here.
00:00:56.399 --> 00:01:01.759
And you are in for a treat today as I introduce um a new friend.
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:12.959
And I just there's just some people that you meet and you're just like instantly BAM! You're just, you know, it's like you've known each other for years and years and years.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:24.560
And this person, Charlie Bray, is one of those people, and it's not a mistake, I'm sure, that Charlie is also uh friends with Mel McCracken, who is also my my sole sibling.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:45.840
Um, so I am excited for Charlie to be here, but I'm also very, very excited to cover a topic that you all have asked me about for years now, that I have never been able to really find anyone to meet the needs for that topic, and that is family members of our of chemsex users, or we can say addicts, but chemsex users.
00:01:46.079 --> 00:01:47.840
Family members, what do we do?
00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:50.959
How do we handle what is the best thing for us?
00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:52.159
How do we help?
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.000
Um, when are we hurting?
00:01:54.079 --> 00:02:07.920
Um, I get asked these questions constantly, and one of the first reasons, one of the main reasons I started this podcast was because my own mother, when I told her, you know, the first time I told her I was using was when I got arrested.
00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.039
And um I said I got arrested for drug possession.
00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:13.759
And she was like, You're using marijuana?
00:02:13.919 --> 00:02:18.639
You know, that was the worst thing she could think of was that I was smoking marijuana.
00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:21.520
Um little did she know I was using meth.
00:02:21.759 --> 00:02:28.400
And so she had no clue on how what chemsex was or what it meant, how to help.
00:02:28.560 --> 00:02:29.840
She made a lot of mistakes.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:37.680
She finally at the end did the right thing and helped, you know, helped my trajectory to recovery.
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:52.960
But I would this is one of the reasons I wanted to make this podcast is for siblings and friends, mothers, fathers, partners to have a resource to go to to educate themselves about chem sex, but also how do I help, right?
00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:54.000
What do I do?
00:02:54.159 --> 00:03:00.800
And so this podcast is going to be extremely helpful for so many people around the world.
00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:03.919
And I'm so glad and honored to have you here, Charlie.
00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:05.280
Welcome.
00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:06.400
Thank you.
00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:08.400
Thank you for having me.
00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.120
Um, I'm so happy to be here.
00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:12.240
I'm so excited.
00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:13.919
I love your story.
00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:21.039
I I'm a person um that also suffers with addiction.
00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:25.759
I've been clean and sober for 18 years, which is kind of nuts.
00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:28.080
Um to say out loud.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:28.400
Yeah.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:29.280
It's so wild.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:35.759
I actually celebrated 18 years the day that I dropped my daughter off to her first day of preschool.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:36.639
Wow.
00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:37.759
What a day.
00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:42.479
What a like what a crazy I don't know, life.
00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:47.599
It's so beautiful and amazing, but I never thought ever I'd be here, right?
00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:52.159
And I like never knew life could be this good either.
00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:55.199
Um, I'll get tearful if I talk too much about it.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:56.800
But um go ahead.
00:03:57.039 --> 00:04:05.439
But I also, so I'm a person who also has family members that are in active use and in recovery.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:12.080
Um, I have a family that's full of eating disorder, mental health issues, all this stuff, right?
00:04:12.159 --> 00:04:17.759
And so that's my personal experience that I lend to whatever I'm talking about all the time.
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:22.959
And then I also went back to school, became a counselor, worked in treatment for many years.
00:04:23.279 --> 00:04:30.399
And now I'm primarily working as a family and loved ones recovery coach.
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:46.079
So I work with a lot of people that suffer with codependency, um, that love people that have issues, that have issues themselves and have difficult dysfunctional family dynamics, right?
00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.839
So that's what I'm primarily working in currently.
00:04:50.079 --> 00:04:58.160
Um and because I want to spend a lot of my time also with my daughter while I can before she goes into school full time.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:03.839
Um, so I'm not working in a treatment center currently, but I probably will return at some point because I love it.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:18.079
Um, and when I worked in treatment, I facilitated a lot of family intensives um where families would come to the treatment center and where the person was receiving treatment and help uh in recovery.
00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:19.920
Worked with Mel for many years.
00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:21.040
They're amazing.
00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:48.240
Um and uh we did like, you know, three-day-long or a week-long workshops talking about dynamics in the family and difficulties that people experience in family patterns and the way that the family operates that kind of lend to everyone in the family suffering, not just the person in active use or in starting recovery, right?
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:54.800
Like, because these dynamics occur way before the person picks up a drink or a drug.
00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:55.279
Yeah.
00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:55.759
Right.
00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:01.360
And so that's kind of me in a nutshell, but I was so I was relating to you.
00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:06.240
I'm like talking about being soul, sisters, brothers, whatever, soul family.
00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:11.839
Um my I got arrested when I was 18.
00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:13.759
Maybe I was seven.
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:14.959
No, I was 18.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.279
And for public intoxication intoxication, right?
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.240
Like, and I kept it from my family.
00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:24.399
I thought it was being all cool, right?
00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:33.040
And then they sent a copy of my arrest record, the Philadelphia police to my parents' home in Florida.
00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:33.839
Oh, wow.
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:37.279
I'm not even I don't think so.
00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:38.720
I don't think so.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:43.199
And they got it and found out and were like, what?
00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:44.319
Right?
00:06:44.480 --> 00:06:51.600
Like, and um, I remember being devastated and being like, I thought I had that, like that they would never find out, you know.
00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:58.639
But my father, they didn't have any idea, you know, to the extent what was happening with me.
00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:05.600
Um, but my father at the time I remember he was like, you know, I did a lot of dumb things when I was young, but I never got caught.
00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:10.800
Oh, the problem is I got caught, right?
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:12.879
The drinking's not a problem.
00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:13.519
That's the issue.
00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:14.480
Right.
00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:17.360
Like, so I just have to keep my secrets better.
00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:19.519
Right.
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:21.360
And that's a whole other podcast.
00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:22.000
But yeah.
00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:23.600
Yeah.
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.439
Anyway, thank you for having me.
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:27.279
And I'm excited to be here.
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:34.800
And I'm really excited if I can in any way fill a void in healing that exists within the community.
00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:35.680
Yes.
00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.079
Well, you are, you are, and so be excited.
00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:53.360
Um, and I just want to say first, if you're listening, that we Charlie and I are working together to um create a series, a webinar series that starts in November.
00:07:53.519 --> 00:08:01.519
Um the title is a working title, but right now we're at Holiday Healing, Support for Addicts and the People Who Love Them.
00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:14.079
Um, so what we're doing is we're providing a place for the loved ones of it, doesn't have to be just chemsex, but you know, if you're listening to this, you're probably it's probably going to be mostly chemsex.
00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:19.199
I would like it to be mostly chemsex because we're going to be able to relate on a different level.
00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:36.879
But family members, loved ones, I will say loved ones of chemsex users, but also chemsex users who also want to navigate family dynamics and know kind of what they could do, what they should do, you know, what they what they might expect.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:38.879
But we're going to start this in November.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:47.759
It'll be a we meet in November, we meet in December, and then we meet in January as a kind of after-action look reflection of how well did it go?
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:49.840
And what can we do next time?
00:08:49.919 --> 00:08:53.919
Because right around, you know, then there's Easter after that, you know, for a lot of people.
00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.960
So they're going to have to navigate another holiday series.
00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:58.399
But we are working on that.
00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.120
I want you to watch for that coming through.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:04.159
We're going to be putting it on social media as much as possible.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:08.240
Um, I'm going to be reaching out to treatment centers than anybody else that we can.
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:14.639
So we really, this is a much needed gap in services that are out there.
00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:20.960
Yes, there is Al-Anon, but Al-Anon doesn't touch into the specifics of chemsex.
00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:23.360
So we we're working on that.
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:27.039
It's going to be an amazing, an amazing offering.
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:32.240
So keep watching for that, and we're going to be, I'll be putting more information out soon.
00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:33.039
Yes.
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:42.559
I think it's really important too, not because the holidays are, oh, there's so many parties and there's so many many opportunities for relapse.
00:09:42.639 --> 00:09:45.039
Like, because that's that's everybody knows that.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:46.720
And that is part of it, right?
00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:51.919
But I think what's really difficult is there's a lot of rituals, right?
00:09:52.000 --> 00:10:08.799
Like there's a lot of we always do this around the holidays, or we always, you know, go to this person's house, you know, who's always passive aggressive, or we always do, you know, have this fight about who's picking up this from this place, right?
00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:14.080
Or like we always have this fight about this person who's always late, or maybe they're not even gonna show up, right?
00:10:14.159 --> 00:10:18.879
Like, and then, you know, this person pretends like everything's fine and this person freaks out, right?
00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:30.159
So it's just like, you know, there's there's always, and there's maybe like the person who's using is like, or who's in early recovery is realizing some of these things.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:32.720
I didn't realize how much they stress me out, right?
00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:49.440
Like, or I need to be able to make a meeting and my family is mad that I need to go to a meeting, you know, or I need to like connect with my sponsor, but they're they're frustrated that I'm on my phone, you know, every day, blah, blah, blah, and not being super present with them.
00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:54.240
And how do we navigate that in a way that's gonna work out for everybody, right?
00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:01.919
Instead of just like the loved ones imposing these these demands, and then the person in recovery imposing demands, right?
00:11:02.000 --> 00:11:06.480
Like there's a lot of navigation of that that requires a little bit of skillfulness.
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.600
And I I love it you brought up Al-Anon because I love Al-Anon.
00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:18.720
You know, I think it's amazing for people to really start to learn how to tune into themselves and listen.
00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:20.879
Like, am I hungry right now?
00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:22.000
Am I tired?
00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:24.240
Do I want to take this phone call?
00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:24.960
Do I not?
00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.519
And this is this applies to everyone, right?
00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:31.519
Like, because I've lost myself in this whole thing.
00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:39.840
I've lost my ability to sense into my internal cues of what I'm feeling, what I'm needing.
00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:44.240
You know, I don't even know why I'm fighting with people sometimes, right?
00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.279
We're we're going into these patterns.
00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:54.559
And so uh I should just stop it there, but Al-Anon.
00:11:54.720 --> 00:12:01.600
But I I oh, well, I think about Al-Anon, you know, there's there's this saying in Al-Anon.
00:12:02.000 --> 00:12:12.399
Um for people who love people that are in use or in recovery, there's no word, no phrase, no sentence, no paragraph that can change your loved one.
00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:31.679
Right, because loved ones often spend a lot of time, a lot of time and a lot of effort trying to change or educate or help or convince or coax or manage their loved one.
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:41.360
And Alanon says this to really help a person let go of that efforting, right?
00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:48.159
Like it's like so much effort all the time, and it's really unsuccessful, right?
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.879
And depleting and tragic.
00:12:51.200 --> 00:13:06.080
Um but I do think that there are ways of being with your loved one and with yourself that are helpful to the situation versus harmful, right?
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:15.120
And so it's it's good to go, you know, let's stop trying to change the person, which Al-Anon gives us.
00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:35.679
But I think there's more to learn about how to be, how to be inside of oneself and interact with your loved one that can actually help elevate the situation and elevate the level of communication and love, right?
00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:40.000
Like so there's not nothing you can do, right?
00:13:40.159 --> 00:13:56.000
But the the focus is almost turned more inward on how can I change inside of myself, shift inside of myself, how I'm behaving, how I'm thinking, so that it kind of changes the result of what happens between me and my loved one.
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.919
Yeah, I like that.
00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:59.120
I like that.
00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:08.639
So because what you're saying to me is for loved ones, let me redefine what help means.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:24.080
Because it could mean to me as a family member, I could think helping means convincing them to stop or taking them to rehab, or you know, what those kind of things is what we think I'm going to help them.
00:14:24.320 --> 00:14:29.840
But let's redefine what help is because I'm not going to make somebody go to rehab.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:36.639
I'm not going to make somebody stop using because that's that's expecting them to change and expecting them to make a decision, right?
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:40.399
Based on on what I am forcing them to do.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:49.039
But let me let me find a way that I can help that's both helpful for me and them, but but in a redefine it in a new way.
00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:50.000
Is that right?
00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:50.879
Yeah.
00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:51.679
Yeah.
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:59.120
Because we think about help in this, like, like I'm gonna help, like basically, I'm just gonna help them get clean.
00:14:59.360 --> 00:14:59.840
Right.
00:15:00.159 --> 00:15:00.799
Right.
00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:01.840
Right?
00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:03.919
Like, or I'm gonna help them.
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:12.159
Like, I I love this um, you know, there's a generational gap that happens too, like with people and their parents or things like this, right?
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.320
Like, if I just help them get a job, then they won't be so miserable.
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:20.399
Or if I just help them find someone to marry, they won't be so sad.
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:21.279
You know, it's like this.
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:29.440
So we see it very clearly in this kind of like um this way that other people might think about other problems.
00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:38.559
But we we totally get blinded by substance use and think, oh, well, this is different though.
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:58.559
If I just help them stop using substances, and then I the methods and the strategies that I use to help them are often shaming or they're condescending, or they're unskillful, really, if I'm being generous, like just unskillful.
00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:19.120
People who really deeply love and are trying their hardest, well-intentioned, but are causing disconnection between their them and their loved one, causing more feelings of resentment or distance than they mean to, and then the person is less likely to come to them for help when they actually are ready.
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:20.720
Yeah.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:27.919
Because you and I both know like if someone is not ready, they're not ready to get help.
00:16:28.879 --> 00:16:32.080
And that's a very scary place for a loved one to be.
00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:34.320
Right?
00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:44.159
Because watching someone that you love do things that are self-harming is devastating.
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:49.039
And it's terrifying.
00:16:49.120 --> 00:17:05.359
And I think the thing that I think about the most probably, and maybe because I'm a person who suffers with this issue myself, is like a lot of us when we are really, really scared, we're really terrified, we get angry.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:07.680
Yeah.
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:08.960
Right?
00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.200
Like, why are you doing this?
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:12.400
How could you do this?
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.240
Like, don't you see what you're doing?
00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:24.240
Like, don't you see that I'm hurting, that you're hurting us, that you like that we are scared, blah, blah, blah, you know, or we're just cold and angry.
00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:35.440
You know, and and it's very hard for the person in active use to see through that anger to, oh, my per my family loves me and they're just terrified.
00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:36.079
Right.
00:17:36.400 --> 00:17:36.640
Right?
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:43.359
Because all it feels like is they're just angry at me again, or they're just upset with me again, or I'm just disappointing them again.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:44.079
Yeah.
00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:58.960
And so I think part of what we're looking to create is a space for people to really shed some of those protective shields that cause more disconnection.
00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:00.240
Yeah.
00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:02.319
Yeah, for sure.
00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:08.000
So, because you mentioned earlier, am I hungry, angry, right?
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.519
So basically halt.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.240
Halt for the family for the loved one, right?
00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.359
Am I hungry, angry, lonely, tired?
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:27.920
So I'm going to check in with that first before I approach my addict, loved one, because most of the time I'm just going to make things worse.
00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:32.559
Like you said, if I'm acting out of anger, which is really fear.
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.440
Anger is a anger is always a secondary emotional, right?
00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.880
But if I'm also hangry, hangry, yeah, hangry too.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:39.680
Hungry.
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:51.039
If I'm also lonely, if I'm also tired, like those are times when I'm not coming to them at my best, and it's never probably going to work out the way that we I think it is.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:58.400
Which is which is also, I think, uh important here to when you're reframing what helps.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:07.279
If you if you can manage the expectation, then you don't end up feeling like you're the loser, like you're missing the mark.
00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:11.039
Like I haven't done my job as a loved one because they're still using.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:20.880
It's like if you if you use that as your metrics of whether or not they relapse again, then you're just setting yourself up to feel worse and worse about yourself, right?
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:22.079
Yeah.
00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:31.759
Because really, like codependency, which is is a whole can of worms, and I can open it up.
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:34.559
I want to talk about that.
00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:45.599
Like at its core, at its core is like everyone in in the family or in the group of loved ones or in the relationship, right?
00:19:45.920 --> 00:19:51.680
The person that has substance use and the person that loves them is probably suffering with this.
00:19:51.759 --> 00:20:04.799
And it's it's a way of relating to another person where you have lost sight of your own self, your own individuality, your own worth and value.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:16.079
And in a way, you're trying to gain your worth and value by helping or managing or fulfilling a need for another person.
00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:18.480
Yeah.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:18.960
Right?
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:23.279
Like that's not the entirety of codependency, but it's a very big wing.
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:24.880
Right?
00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:33.519
Of like, and so there becomes this cycle of maybe even it started when you met the person.
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.759
Let's say there's a romantic relationship, right?
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:44.400
Like, oh, this person over here needs me for whatever reason, right?
00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:48.960
Because they're disorganized and they need me to help them get their life together, right?
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:56.000
Or or uh, you know, it could be like, oh, they drink too much and they're trying to get it together, or whatever, right?
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:02.960
That's when it starts, you know, and then this person is like, oh, I can help.
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:04.079
Yeah.
00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:04.559
Right.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.960
And then they help that person and they feel good about themselves and they like the help, right?
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:16.400
Like, yeah, and then it's like I have worth and value because this person is paying attention to me and really like giving me everything, right?
00:21:16.480 --> 00:21:30.160
And it's it sets off this cycle of like each person is gaining their esteem through the relationship rather than two people knowing they have worth and value and coming together to enjoy each other's company.
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:31.519
Yeah.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:32.640
Yeah.
00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:34.160
Does that make sense so far?
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:34.960
Oh, yeah.
00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:35.839
Yeah, yeah.
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.599
I'm I'm picking it up.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:38.559
Yeah.
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:42.559
I mean, that's that's what I did in my marriage.
00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.839
You know, I hated everything about myself.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:52.079
And so I took care of and saved a wife who wanted, you know.
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:58.000
And listen, there's also the dynamic of the person who need who think they need taken care of.
00:21:58.480 --> 00:21:58.640
Right?
00:21:58.720 --> 00:21:59.759
They're their self esteem.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.680
Solo that I have I need someone to save me.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.160
Yeah.
00:22:04.400 --> 00:22:05.200
Too, right?
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:06.799
So that was that dynamic.
00:22:06.880 --> 00:22:12.240
And then my kids didn't have to think, feel, you know, I did everything for everyone.
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.680
And that's how I got my self-worth, my my purpose.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:18.319
I'm here as I'm here as the savior.
00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:25.519
Everything about me is shoved back into a closet, but I'm going to, you know, save everybody else, and I'm always there.
00:22:25.839 --> 00:22:26.400
Right.
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:29.039
And very codependent.
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.240
So that's a that's a little ill illustration about what you're saying, I think.
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:47.279
Um and yes, I see this with partners who contact me, you know, or they they meet somebody who they're physically attracted to, and when they and when they talk to them while sober, there's a there's a deep connection.
00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:59.839
But then there's just this pesky little thing called addiction, where they it if you know they disappear for about a week going on a chemsex bench, and then they think, I'm gonna save this person.
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:05.599
I'm sober, I don't want to do chemsex, I'm here as the savior, I'm gonna fix them.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:08.559
That's just never gonna work, is it?
00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:23.119
So this is the reason that I have difficulty with having like my own um social media brand, is that I don't it's hard for me to make blanket statements.
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:26.720
So never is not a word that we should use there, right?
00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:27.359
Right.
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:29.279
Because well, here's the deal.
00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:32.720
If you really break it down, like let's reduce it down.
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:33.599
Yeah.
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:49.440
Almost every single person on this earth, if this is a blanket statement I was gonna make, yeah, is attracted to traits, good and bad, yeah, in a partner that remind them of their parents.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:50.319
Yes.
00:23:51.039 --> 00:23:51.359
Yeah.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:51.839
Right?
00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:54.559
Like that's a blanket statement I feel comfortable making.
00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:55.119
Yeah.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:56.160
Yeah.
00:23:56.319 --> 00:23:56.640
Okay.
00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:05.839
So when you tell me like that scenario, okay, I I met this person sober, we had this great connection conversation.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.640
It was like immediate, right?
00:24:09.599 --> 00:24:20.160
For me, that attraction always stems from there's something familiar, family, familiar, right?
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:30.559
Like in that attraction that is spiking something internally for me that reminds me of my family of origin.
00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:32.160
Right.
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:36.400
Whether that's a wound or not is up for debate.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:37.920
Right?
00:24:38.079 --> 00:24:44.240
Like, and so I'm immediately, I have this intensity or this connection with someone.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:48.240
It could remind me of intensity in my family of origin.
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:49.680
Right.
00:24:49.839 --> 00:25:00.319
It could remind me of how they connect or disconnect, how they relate to definitions of love or relate to their own pain or not.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.279
Right.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:13.359
Like, so even though it's like, oh, we're just flirting, we're just having fun, like there is a whole, like, you know, an interpersonal neurobiology, basically, which is like my jam.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.079
I love it.
00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:34.000
Um, you know, we have all these neurons firing inside of us that are picking up on tiny little details about the person subconsciously, like beneath our consciousness, beneath our thinking mind that are like, oh, this is like we know this, right?
00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:40.640
Like we've seen this before, but now it's newer, it's spicier, it's got a very attractive person in front of it, right?
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.319
Like, so we're like, oh yeah, give me more of that, right?
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:50.880
Like how they they really are into us, and then they they don't text us back for seven hours.
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:59.440
Like that might be that, and then they're so happy that we text and we had all that like depletion and fear, and why aren't they texting me back?
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.559
And then we got, oh yes, they can't, they can't wait to hear from us, right?
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.559
Like that from might remind me of a a pattern with my parent, right?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:07.920
Like, who knows?
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:22.000
Um, but all that to say, like that initial attraction, even that is something that usually the person has to do some reflection on, yeah, right.
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:24.480
And I'm not saying that that can't work out, right?
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:31.119
Like, I'm married to somebody that I thought was totally different than my parents.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:32.559
Totally different.
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:36.240
I thought they were nothing like my father, right?
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:39.680
They have a lot of things in common, you know.
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:42.240
13 years later, I'm like, oh, okay, wow.
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:50.559
You know, like because my my nervous system, my brain, they're all picking up on stuff that I couldn't see myself.
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:51.839
Right.
00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:58.640
And so we've had to work through some of these patterns, and I've had to work through, wow, like this is me.
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:07.920
I feel like a teenager, like the way that I'm wanting to react in this situation or the way that I'm wanting to escape, or whatever else when there's tension or friction.
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:08.880
Yeah.
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.920
So I'm kind of going way off track here.
00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.200
No, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:13.359 --> 00:27:14.400
No, it's it's good.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:14.880
It's good.
00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:35.119
It's good because this this is, you know, this is what I had to realize with men is that I wanted the men who did not treat me well or was it were were aloof that I couldn't uh I couldn't reach because it was the dynamic I had with my dad, always trying to get his attention, always trying to get his affection, always chasing that.
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:47.680
But if a man was like all about me and was complimentary and you know, and and just like I was like, ew, you know, you know, that's that's that doesn't attract me.
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.240
I want you to, you know, treat me, I want you to uh ignore me, you know.
00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:54.559
Yes, yeah.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:54.960
Yeah.
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:56.640
Yes, one hundred percent.
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:57.920
I mean, yeah, okay.
00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:06.559
So the woman who came up with the term codependence, PM Melody, I'm so very lucky that my mentor studied under her.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:07.200
Nice.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:12.000
So her framework is something that I work in and with a lot.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:16.240
Um and I highly recommend to everyone the book Facing Codependence.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:17.279
It's amazing.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:17.680
Okay.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:27.279
Um, but this is really highlighting something that she talks about a lot, which is self-esteem and knowing your value.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:28.240
Right.
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.440
And a lot of times if you suffer with codependency, you have an injury to the sense of self-worth.
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:40.960
And so when you walk in a room, you're always measuring who am I better than, who am I worse than.
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:41.839
Yeah.
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.880
I'm better than this person, I'm worse than this person, right?
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.640
I make less money than them, so I'm worse than, or I'm more attracted to them, so I'm better than, right?
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:54.720
Like there's always like a sizing up happening constantly in the mind.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:55.519
Right.
00:28:55.680 --> 00:29:05.119
And when you're talking about, like, you know, people who thought I was great, you know, the mind actually goes like, oh, well, then they must be less than.
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:06.960
Yeah.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:07.519
Right?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.680
Like, because if I'm better than them, I'm they're less than me, right?
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:17.119
I want someone who thinks they're better than me to think I'm great.
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:18.000
Right.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:28.799
And so it does, it kind of like feeds into that chase on top of you've already had this experience with your father where it's difficult to get attention.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:29.680
Yeah.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:30.559
Yeah.
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:41.519
And so I think, and I think we really like we talk about attention in in a kind of gross way a lot of times, like because attention matters.
00:29:41.759 --> 00:29:42.400
Right.
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:43.119
Right?
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:47.440
Like, but we're like, like when we talk about kids, oh, they just want attention.
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:53.039
They're just trying to get your attention, you know, or like that person's posting because they want attention.
00:29:53.119 --> 00:30:00.319
And it's like attention is like the most valuable commit commodity in relationships, period.
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:01.200
Yeah.
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:06.400
Like if my partner doesn't give me any attention, how would I ever know that he loved me?
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:07.359
Right.
00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:12.799
If my mother never gave me any attention, I would not know that she loved me.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:13.680
Yeah.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:14.400
Right.
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:16.640
And so it's like attention matters.
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:17.359
Right.
00:30:17.599 --> 00:30:23.119
It's the motivation behind why you need the attention or why you want the attention, I would say.
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:29.119
Or if you're consciously trying to get it to solve your worth, your self-worth need.
00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:33.599
That's why validation is also you can have there's good validation.
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:34.960
Everybody needs validated.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:36.240
Right.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:43.839
But if I need that validation to feel better about myself, if that's what I feel like is, you know, that's a difference, I think.
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:44.640
Yes.
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:45.119
Right.
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:51.920
Like I'm again, the but going back to what I said a few minutes ago, like if I'm trying to get my worth and value through you.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:53.039
Yes.
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:55.920
Rather than self-esteeming.
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:56.480
Right.
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.920
You know, creating my own worth and value, knowing I have it.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:00.480
Yeah.
00:31:00.720 --> 00:31:01.119
Always.
00:31:01.359 --> 00:31:06.559
That my my imperfection as a human doesn't take away from my worth and value.
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:10.079
My addiction doesn't take away from my worth and value.
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:10.880
Yeah.
00:31:11.440 --> 00:31:18.720
My difficulty, you know, loving someone in addiction doesn't take away my love, my worth and value, right?
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:28.240
Like there's so much shame around having problems or having issues or not being able to accomplish a goal or loving someone who's struggling.
00:31:28.400 --> 00:31:30.160
And it's so silly.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:30.880
Yeah.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:31.519
Yeah.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:35.119
Like all these people have worth and value.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:44.400
And just because they're suffering with a problem or a mental illness or a difficulty in life doesn't take away at all from their worth and value.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:44.960
Yeah.
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:50.400
But when clinicians like me say stuff like that, it's like, what?
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:52.160
Revolutionary.
00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:54.960
Never heard of that before.
00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:55.359
Right.
00:31:55.440 --> 00:32:04.240
Because everyone has this assumption like something is wrong with me or something is less banned with me because I have addiction or because I love someone or someone in my family does.
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:05.200
Right.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:05.759
Right.
00:32:06.000 --> 00:32:12.960
So I think that that's that that that's what I see with parents often, right?
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:19.759
Is that their child is a reflection of how well they've done as a parent or them as a as a person.
00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:29.039
And a lot if you're getting your worth and your value by how well your child's doing is so volatile and now they're an addict.
00:32:29.119 --> 00:32:30.640
So what does that say about me?
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:31.119
Right.
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:36.400
So what what would you say to a parent who what do you what would you say?
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.240
What do you say to parents anyway?
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:42.720
I mean, you know, how do how do you separate, how do you not blame yourself?
00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:50.880
How do you not personalize it, internalize it, um, and keep from you know that that fear and that anger?
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:56.000
Like what what is a what is your advice, most your your best advice for parents of addicts?
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:04.079
This is where I'm like, oh, there's it's it's so big, right?
00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:04.640
It's so big.
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:14.799
It's so difficult to make a blanket statement because every like you know, every person is different, every family's different, it's all case by case, right?
00:33:14.960 --> 00:33:21.519
Like um so I'm trying to think of like what what can always be true.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:22.640
Yeah.
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:38.960
Like what what can always be true is that when your child is suffering.
00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.519
It doesn't matter why they're suffering.
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:55.519
It doesn't matter if you caused it or someone else caused it, or addiction caused it.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:07.599
You want to create a space that is open to help alleviate the suffering.
00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:20.639
Because we can deal with the guilt that you might have about things that have happened.
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:34.320
We can deal with fights you've had or unskillful interactions you've had, we can deal with those things later when some of the suffering has eased.
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:52.800
But right now, if your person, your child is suffering, you don't want to make it about you and what if you're good enough or not good enough.
00:34:54.159 --> 00:35:05.599
You want to create a space for your child to get well, and whether your child chooses to get well or not is their choice, especially if they're an adult cho child, right?
00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:15.280
But you want to create a space in which they might come to you for help when they need it.
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:34.800
And if you are really kind of like wrapped up in this evaluation of your own motherhood or fatherhood, you won't be able to really extend a hand to them.
00:35:38.320 --> 00:35:38.960
Yeah.
00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:39.679
Yeah.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:44.079
That's what I would say is is almost always true.
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:44.800
Yeah.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:45.920
I love that.
00:35:46.239 --> 00:35:46.960
I I love that.
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.599
They're they're suffering, doesn't matter why.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:36:04.320
And though the next thing, the next question I'm gonna have is at what point are we enabling Okay what what point are we causing more suffering without meaning to?
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:20.480
Okay, because this is immediately after I said all that stuff, I was like, the thing that people are gonna follow up with are like, well, what does it mean creating a space to be there to help them if they need help, right?
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:24.000
Like, or like you're saying, like at what point are we enabling, right?
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:30.320
Because loving someone doesn't mean funding their slow death.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:41.679
Loving someone does not mean taking responsibility for the things in their life that they're supposed to take responsibility for.
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:42.719
That's right.
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:43.679
Yeah.
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:44.320
Right?
00:36:44.480 --> 00:37:09.199
Like, and you know, granted, everyone is allowed to make their own definitions of love, but I think that we would universally say loving someone is something we do that helps encourage life rather than destruction or smallness or death or narrowness.
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:10.559
Right?
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:22.320
Like you don't think about like live and let live, love and let love, you know, like you're you're it feels open, it feels expansive, it feels energetic, it feels life-giving, right?
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:34.800
But love, if love makes something more difficult, more bogged down, more uh narrow, you know, that doesn't feel like love to a lot of people, right?
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:46.320
And so I think loving someone and creating a space for them that is loving when they're suffering takes boundaries, appropriate boundaries.
00:37:46.480 --> 00:37:46.800
Yeah.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:47.360
Right.
00:37:47.519 --> 00:38:00.960
Which means things like, oh, okay, like you want to borrow money, but your inactive use, I don't hear from you for per periods of time.
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:07.039
Our relationship is suffering because I'm in fear all the time and you just disappear on me.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:07.840
Right.
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:16.800
Like, and so it's impacting how I feel on a daily basis, and I'm scared and I don't know what you're actually gonna use the money for.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:18.000
Are you gonna pay your rent?
00:38:18.159 --> 00:38:20.239
Are you gonna go out and use?
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:21.599
I don't know, right?
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:27.760
Then I would say, I'm sorry, I don't think I can help you out financially.
00:38:28.079 --> 00:38:32.559
I can help you out by you can come stay with me.
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:39.039
You um, I'm here as an ear for you if you want to talk to me.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:43.119
Even though that can be scary if your person is in psychosis, right?
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:46.400
Like I that's a whole whole other conversation.
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:52.320
Um I've experienced that myself, and it's it's uh very terrifying.
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:59.599
Um so or or it's going like, I would love to help you out financially.
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:07.280
Um I will give you money if you want to go into a treatment center.
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:10.719
Then I will be able to lend you money.
00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:12.480
Right?
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:17.199
I'll be able to um pay for you to get into a sober living.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:18.719
Right?
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:24.159
Like then I would be able to help you financially because then the person has a choice.
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:37.519
They're forced into a choice, like, oh, I can either try and go get the money somewhere else, or I can take the money from my loved one and try to get help.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:41.039
And the choice is on them, right?
00:39:41.199 --> 00:39:50.159
Instead of the loved one feeling like, oh, I didn't, I I just said no, and now they're gonna go do all this stuff to try and get money, or they're gonna be homeless, or blah, blah, blah.
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:55.199
And it's like, no, I'm I'm going, like, I will give you some money if you go into a treatment center.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:57.039
I will help you pay for that.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.360
I'll help you pay for a sober living, right?
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:10.079
But I also think it's appropriate if you don't have any money to lend, because this happens too, to just go, I don't have any money to lend you.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:15.360
I wish I could help you, but I don't have that.
00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.280
What I have is to offer is my love, my care.
00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:27.119
Uh you can come stay on my couch for a night or two until you figure things out, right?
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:37.360
Like there's there's a way that we can be helpful without like really hurting ourselves or our own financial state, right?
00:40:37.840 --> 00:40:45.599
But these things are difficult to navigate because people get so dysregulated thinking if I don't help, they'll die.
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:47.760
Or if I don't help, they'll be homeless.
00:40:48.000 --> 00:40:48.639
Yes.
00:40:49.039 --> 00:40:49.519
Right.
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:54.400
And that that is very scary and it's very real, right?
00:40:54.559 --> 00:41:01.519
Because having boundaries means that the person in use has to actually take responsibility for themselves.
00:41:01.840 --> 00:41:02.239
Right.
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:03.119
Right.
00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:04.000
Right.
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:07.440
And what they do with that responsibility, you don't know.
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:12.960
Sometimes they will, you know, blow up their life.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:18.480
Sometimes they'll, you know, flounder and flail for a minute, but they will figure it out.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:21.920
But they definitely won't figure it out if you keep bailing them out.
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:22.960
That's right.
00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:24.719
That's right.
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:29.199
And for the loved one, they really need support through that.
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:30.320
Right?
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:41.840
Because maybe they have the ability to say no for like a day or two, and then they freak out because the maybe the person in use is texting them, like, you abandoned me, you didn't help me, blah, blah, blah.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:43.039
That happens, right?
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:45.039
You don't care about me.
00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:46.800
And they're like, I do care.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:48.960
I just want to help you in the right way.
00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:49.679
Bah, blah, blah.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:51.199
And they're like, you don't love me.
00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:54.719
And then they're like, fine, here's$600, you know, or whatever.
00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:55.199
Yeah.
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:55.840
Right.
00:41:56.079 --> 00:42:12.000
And so the loved one really needs support because what ends up happening is the person in use doesn't believe in themselves enough that they can get better or that they can figure it out.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.559
Right underneath all of that stuff.
00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:18.000
It's like, I need someone to save me.
00:42:18.159 --> 00:42:19.519
I won't be able to save myself.
00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:21.760
I won't be able to figure it out myself.
00:42:22.079 --> 00:42:22.559
Yeah.
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:35.280
And when a person, a loved one, has boundaries and goes, I believe that you are going to figure this out, or that you're going to rise to the occasion, or that you're going to get better, and I'll help you.
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:37.920
I'll stand by and support you getting better.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.239
It's almost as if they're talking to their loved one as if they are capable.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:51.599
And then the the person in use might actually ponder for a moment maybe I am capable.
00:42:53.920 --> 00:43:02.480
Maybe I'm not as useless, worthless, unable, unable, you know, like incapable as I thought.
00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:07.360
Because they are thinking that they know I can do it.
00:43:07.599 --> 00:43:08.239
Yeah.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:13.760
And that's something that is a rare thing to kind of elicit.
00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:19.760
And take some skillfulness and some courage.
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:20.559
Yeah.
00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:21.199
Yeah.
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:27.039
Which is what Yeah, it does, which is why I think you know, you keep mentioning skillfulness.
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:51.440
So anyone, a loved one of a chem sex user in our case, having some type of coach like you to help them through this can teach them some skill, teach them some way to to word what they have what they want to say, when they want to say it, you know, how they want to say it, but also how do I take care of me and how do I shift the paradigm?
00:43:51.679 --> 00:43:57.599
Because, you know, if a with a parent says, You're not allowed here anymore, right?
00:43:57.840 --> 00:44:05.679
Like you're not allowed here anymore, and then And they not knowing that there's they to them, they're sending them to their death.
00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:11.280
Like you said, they they they get into this disregard place, then they get a call from the emergency room.
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:23.599
You know, because a lot of a lot of guys will uh are more and more kin sex users are going to the emergency room, they're getting overamped, you know, or they go into psychosis, you know, or whatever, whatever it is.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:27.360
Their heart their heart starts, you know, they they think they're having a stroke or something like that.
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:31.920
They go to the emergency room, well, they're their parent, they call their parents, right?
00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.880
So the parents can blame themselves, or they can they have a decision.
00:44:36.960 --> 00:44:41.440
Like, do I leave him there in the hospital with nowhere to go?
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.559
Or I mean, go to the hospital, go see him first.
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:47.519
Do I bring him?
00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:48.639
Do I let him come back?
00:44:48.800 --> 00:44:50.000
Is the question.
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:51.039
Oh.
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:52.239
Okay.
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:54.960
There's two things here, right?
00:44:55.119 --> 00:45:01.199
The first is kind of the issue of not letting someone in the house, which I do want to address because I think that's really important.
00:45:01.519 --> 00:45:08.800
And the second is how do you respond to someone who's like in an emergency situation, right?
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:09.199
Yeah.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:11.360
Um, because it is true.
00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:18.079
Like sometimes when you have a boundary and you like it will go poorly, right?
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:25.599
Like the person will go hurt themselves or they'll go, you know, use or get in an even worse situation, right?
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:27.280
Like that is true.
00:45:27.519 --> 00:45:32.960
And that's why loved ones need support because that's scary, that in-between time, right?
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:37.599
And it's even scarier if they then get the call or they're in their emergency room.
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:40.639
I just want to say thank God they made it to the emergency room.
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:41.679
Yeah, right.
00:45:42.559 --> 00:45:44.559
First and foremost, right?
00:45:44.719 --> 00:45:47.840
Like that's that's a positive, actually.
00:45:48.559 --> 00:45:53.280
And emergency room is a great place to go.
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:56.719
I'm here, I love you, you're not alone.
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:00.559
And then just be with them.
00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:06.719
Not trying to preach or manage or convince or coax, right?
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:18.079
Like, but letting them know, like, you know, if you get out of here, when you get out of here, if you want, I just want you to know the offer still stands, I'll help you get help.
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:21.039
Yeah.
00:46:21.360 --> 00:46:22.159
If you want it.
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:22.800
Right.
00:46:22.960 --> 00:46:26.400
You don't have to say it ten times, you only got to say it once.
00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:26.960
Okay.
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.079
And let the emergency room do the heavy lifting.
00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:33.920
That fear that they must feel, the pain that they feel.
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.039
I mean, not everybody does, I'll be real with you, right?
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:40.320
Like people go to the emergency rooms multiple times, they don't care.
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:41.280
Right, right.
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:42.400
I know.
00:46:42.719 --> 00:46:43.039
Right?
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:45.039
So, like, that's a reality too.
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:45.760
Right.
00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:46.559
Right.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:47.440
Yeah.
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:50.480
So that this is why I'm like, it's case by case.
00:46:51.039 --> 00:46:52.000
It is, it is.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:52.800
Yeah.
00:46:53.360 --> 00:46:55.199
But um it is case by case.
00:46:55.519 --> 00:47:05.519
But I do think I think something about like going, okay, this is a very real thing, and it cut it goes across a lot of different addictions, even just alcoholism, right?
00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:08.719
Which I when I say just alcoholism, minimizes it.
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:12.000
But millions of people die of alcoholism every year.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:14.400
So it's not like it's nothing.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:25.679
Um, so when parents or even spouses or loved ones or roommates or friends go, like, I can't have you in my house.
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:27.280
You can't be in my house.
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:27.679
Yeah.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:28.159
Right.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:46.480
What they're actually doing in that moment, and I think this is why our holiday course is really important for both addicts and loved ones to be there, because this information is so helpful to both people, and to hear both people's perspective on it is so enlightening for everyone.
00:47:46.719 --> 00:48:00.079
But what they're actually doing is going, if I let you in here, you will do something that makes you hate yourself, and I will do something that makes me disrespect myself.
00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:02.800
Right?
00:48:02.880 --> 00:48:04.800
Like if I let you steal from me.
00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:05.440
Yeah.
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:06.000
Right?
00:48:06.079 --> 00:48:10.400
Like if I know when you come in the house, some of my jewelry goes missing.
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:11.920
Right?
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:21.679
Or when I let you come in the house, by 24 hours later, you start calling me the C word or the B word or whatever, right?
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:29.119
Like, because I won't give you more money, or I won't, you know, or I said something that pissed you off, or whatever, right?
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.599
Like then we get in a fight and there's name calling.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:38.800
So I know when you come in this house, you put our relationship at risk.
00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:43.119
It damages our relationship, right?
00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:57.760
Because you're gonna, and and especially I think it's really important this part your addiction is gonna have you behave in a way that makes you not feel good about yourself.
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:03.840
And I don't want my space to be a space where you don't like yourself.
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:06.800
Right?
00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:11.199
Like even I remember going home to visit my family.
00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:13.199
I lived like 3,000 miles away.
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:15.039
Uh actually it was a thousand.
00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:20.559
I lived a thousand miles away.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:27.280
But it was like I would go home and I would say hi and then I would sleep for like 30 hours, right?
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:28.400
Oh, yeah, right.
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:41.199
Because I was like coming down off of whatever, you know, and my my family would just be kind of like waiting to see when I was gonna hang out with them, right?
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:49.280
And then I felt bad and I apologized, but I was working so much and I need to recover, blah, blah, blah, and all the lies that I told, right?
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:56.880
And then it was like I didn't even want to go home because I felt so ashamed of the way that I behaved when I was there, right?
00:49:57.119 --> 00:50:02.719
And I knew that they knew something's wrong, but then they're not saying anything, right?
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:11.519
And so it's like everybody's having to engage in this lying to themselves and this distance, and it's not good for the relationship, right?
00:50:11.599 --> 00:50:19.360
And so again, if like if I have a child who's like maybe I said no using in the house and they used, yeah.
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:20.480
Right?
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:24.880
Like I go, you know, I told you that, I meant it.
00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:33.199
I I love you endlessly, I always want you to come stay with me, but you used in the house and I told you you couldn't, so you cannot come back.
00:50:34.880 --> 00:50:35.519
Right?
00:50:35.920 --> 00:50:43.840
That is going, I love you so much, I will not let my house be an unsafe place for you.
00:50:44.400 --> 00:50:44.960
Right.
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:46.480
Yeah.
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:54.719
And that's like people are like, but then they're gonna go out and live on the street, you know, and it's okay.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:51:01.280
Well, maybe living on the street for a day or two is really gonna build some motivation to get help.
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:02.239
Right.
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:05.760
Like I know it, I know it's terrifying when I say that.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.239
Like, yeah, I have a child.
00:51:08.719 --> 00:51:13.039
I can't even imagine how difficult it is.
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:14.320
Really?
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:19.360
Like, it's so painful for me to even be like, go into preschool.
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:24.880
Who knows if you get bullied there, you know, like my daughter's three, you know.
00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:32.880
So but it's like I understand that what I'm saying is unfathomably difficult, but it doesn't work the other way.
00:51:33.199 --> 00:51:33.840
Yeah.
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:34.880
Yeah.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:35.440
Right.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:45.760
And so you you have a choice like, do I do I keep going in the direction that we're going that doesn't work and gets worse, progressively worse?
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:52.000
Like they come in my house, they lie to me, they do what I didn't want them to do, or they steal from me, or whatever.
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:56.320
They hate themselves more and more and more, their use picks up and progresses, right?
00:51:56.960 --> 00:52:08.559
Or do I take a risk and change how I hold boundaries or how I keep our home safe and try something new and see what happens.
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:09.360
Yeah.
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:10.159
Right.
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:15.119
And it really is I'm keeping the home safe for you by making sure you don't hurt yourself in my home.
00:52:15.440 --> 00:52:16.000
Right.
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:16.960
Right.
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:18.159
Exactly.
00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:18.800
Yes.
00:52:18.960 --> 00:52:19.280
Yeah.
00:52:19.599 --> 00:52:20.880
So there's my very long list.
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:21.760
It's good.
00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:22.239
Yeah.
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:22.800
No.
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:25.199
It's good.
00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:31.199
Um, so I I made some notes of some other scenarios that I have come across, right?
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:47.440
One of the main ones, one of the main ones, and we talk of that, uh we've talked about it here on the podcast a lot, is the partner scenario where one usually they open the relationship, one of them finds meth out in the in their comings and goings, and then they get hooked.
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:47.920
Okay.
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:53.519
The partner will contact me, you know, how do I, what do I do?
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:55.039
How do I help?
00:52:55.199 --> 00:53:22.639
You know, uh, you know, and what I find out is the the using partner is leaving, they're going to use, they're doing their binges, they're they're binging or whatever they're doing, going out for even if it's a day, maybe it's a week, maybe it's longer, and then they come back, the the the non-using partner cares so much for them and does love them that you know, here's here's some food, here's some water, go get some rest, that kind of thing.
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:30.480
And so I have this little phrase that I use is as long as they have a man, a meal, and a mattress, they're going to keep using.
00:53:31.119 --> 00:53:33.199
Because there's no consequence.
00:53:34.480 --> 00:53:37.119
But the partner is like, this is my husband.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:39.519
Like, or this is my lifelong partner.
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:41.519
What do I how do I do this?
00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:43.280
How do I navigate this?
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:47.360
How do I you know, and that like how do I get them help?
00:53:47.440 --> 00:53:58.159
And I'm like, I always say, like, unless your partner, the using partner, is contacting me and asking me for help, they're they're not asking for it, they don't want it.
00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:07.760
So I I never know exactly what to say besides easy for me to say, set a boundary with a consequence and stick to it.
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:16.079
You know, but that's you know, that's an easy answer for parents, partners, any loved one, friends, siblings, that's an easy answer.
00:54:16.239 --> 00:54:19.360
It's but it's not not easy to do, I'm sure.
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:23.679
But what would you say to a partner who comes to you with that?
00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:25.920
That kind of situation of how do I help?
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:29.920
How do I how do I convince him to stop or go to rehab?
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:37.840
I would ask the partner what do you want your marriage to be?
00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:39.360
Right?
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:48.800
Because my husband and I were very clear when we got married that we want to be together forever, right?
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:50.960
Like that's that was our intention.
00:54:51.920 --> 00:54:55.280
However, there are deal breakers.
00:54:57.199 --> 00:54:57.519
Right?
00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:08.559
Like, I think that people are like kind of like super romantic and like thinking about marriage sometimes, but like if my husband abuses me, yeah, deal breaker.
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:09.039
Yeah.
00:55:09.440 --> 00:55:11.519
If he abuses my daughter, deal breaker.
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:12.719
Yeah, right?
00:55:12.880 --> 00:55:34.000
Like and this is where I'm gonna challenge a person if my husband abuses himself in front of me and continually abuses himself, hurts himself and will not get help for it, like will not change.
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:38.239
Is that a deal breaker?
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:39.360
Right?
00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:43.840
Like, and I know that that's not like a yes or no for a lot of people, right?
00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:50.239
So, but I think that it matters because there's the two people and then the relationship, right?
00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:55.760
The relationship is this third thing, it's like this living dynamic thing, right?
00:55:55.920 --> 00:56:06.400
Like your relationship can be great, your relationship can be toxic, your relationship can be very tense at certain times, your relationship can be free-flowing and open, right?
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:12.079
So the relationship is a thing that two people have to care for and manage and put effort into.
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:33.440
And if you are standing by and watching someone hurt themselves, and they know that they're doing it, and that you're kind of just letting them even if a part of them, the addictive part, is going like, I want to do this.
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:35.039
This is how I want to spend my time.
00:56:35.119 --> 00:56:35.840
I love this.
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:37.360
You need to support me.
00:56:37.679 --> 00:56:37.840
Yeah.
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:43.119
Another part of them, deep down inside, is like, oh, I know I shouldn't be doing this.
00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:52.800
Well, I guess my partner's okay with it, so I'm gonna keep doing it for now, but I probably shouldn't.
00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:54.400
Right?
00:56:54.639 --> 00:57:13.679
And so it's kind of like you're gonna grow the relationship into a thing, not intentionally, but that is a place the relationship becomes a place where someone hurts themselves and you just watch it happen.
00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:14.880
Right.
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:16.559
And let it happen.
00:57:16.880 --> 00:57:17.199
Right.
00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:24.239
And not only that, but you are letting go of your own wants or needs or hopes for the marriage.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:26.559
Right.
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:33.519
And so I you know, first and foremost, it's about like do you want that for yourself?
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:37.519
I would ask the partner, you know, like what were you hoping this marriage would look like?
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:41.440
What would you what were you hoping the relationship would look like long term?
00:57:41.920 --> 00:57:59.039
You know, and getting clear on that because if you're clear on that, then you can have a conversation with the partner, whether it's directly or with a third party, about like, you know, I these are the things I want.
00:57:59.280 --> 00:58:02.880
I want us, I want you to not disappear for a week at a time.
00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:05.760
I want us to have regular Sunday dates.
00:58:05.920 --> 00:58:11.360
I want us to have, you know, powwows about where we're going and what we want to do and planning the future.
00:58:11.519 --> 00:58:23.039
I want to, you know, whatever it is that you want, being clear on it because once you've been clear on it, then the other partner has a decision to make.
00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:29.119
Am I gonna show up for my relationship or my marriage or am I not?
00:58:29.679 --> 00:58:30.000
Yeah.
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:31.039
Yeah.
00:58:31.840 --> 00:58:32.079
Right?
00:58:33.039 --> 00:58:47.360
And then it's it's in their hands, and then ultimately, as you and I know, most of the time use Matthews picks up rather than decreases.
00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:52.719
Although it does in some very strange, odd rare cases, right?
00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:55.199
Like someone goes, Enough is enough.
00:58:55.440 --> 00:59:01.440
My partner's getting very clear that he's gonna leave if I if I continue this, right?
00:59:01.519 --> 00:59:02.800
Like I need to get help now.
00:59:02.880 --> 00:59:04.320
I need to like stop the train now.
00:59:04.480 --> 00:59:06.880
Some people do that, that's great, you know.
00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:27.679
Yeah, but for the loved one, they get to go, you know, I was very clear about what I want, and you keep disappearing or you keep doing this, you know, and I can't continue to just be like your maid or your valet or whatever, you know, and queen for you and feed you.
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:29.760
Like that's not what I wanted in this marriage.
00:59:29.840 --> 00:59:35.280
So I have to, we have to separate, you know, and maybe that will be the wake-up call.
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:39.280
Like, yes, they were clear with me and I keep not doing it, right?
00:59:39.360 --> 00:59:42.400
But a boundary is not a boundary if you don't actually hold it.
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:43.440
Yeah.
00:59:44.159 --> 00:59:44.480
Yeah.
00:59:44.719 --> 00:59:44.960
Right.
00:59:45.119 --> 01:00:00.639
Because if you say, This is what I want for the marriage, and this is what I want for us and our lives long term, and then they don't do it, and they don't do it, and they don't do it, and you stay, you are telling them without words, oh, I wasn't real about that.
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:01.440
Right.
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:03.519
It doesn't actually matter to me.
01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:04.400
Right.
01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:04.960
Right.
01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:12.559
So it's complicated and it's hard to get, but I I think that those are some things that I would put into their minds.
01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:13.280
Yeah.
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:14.320
I like that.
01:00:14.480 --> 01:00:23.519
And you're so much more diplomatic and compassionate in the way you word things, in the way that you word things compared to me.
01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:25.760
Yeah, yeah.
01:00:25.920 --> 01:00:39.920
Uh, but you saying that really hit me in terms of I'm not, I I I'm not going to allow you to abuse yourself because you're really you're abusing the marriage, you're abusing in in proxy me, you're abusing us.
01:00:40.239 --> 01:00:43.039
Yeah, and and I can't just allow that to happen.
01:00:43.119 --> 01:00:44.239
It's a deal breaker.
01:00:44.480 --> 01:00:44.719
Right.
01:00:44.880 --> 01:00:45.039
Yeah.
01:00:45.760 --> 01:01:00.079
To me, that does also take a lot of pointing fingers and shaming the user, which is only going to make them, you know, you said meth accelerates, it's only going to fuel throw fuel on a fire to shame them in that way.
01:01:00.239 --> 01:01:03.519
It's your fault, you're ruined this marriage, you know, all that kind of stuff.
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:14.719
Phrasing it that way to me does kind of take the it it looks at the marriage as an entity instead of this is all you and your fault and your problem, too.
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:15.280
I think.
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:16.000
Yeah.
01:01:16.320 --> 01:01:16.960
Totally.
01:01:17.119 --> 01:01:33.679
Because I mean, I think there is like a habit of blaming or one person is at fault, and you know, it's really about like if we're in a romantic relationship, a loving relationship, we both have to care for the thing.
01:01:34.719 --> 01:01:35.280
Yeah.
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:35.920
Right?
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:37.360
Like, yeah.
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:49.840
I think, you know, there are these stories about people who get married that just have this wonderful relationship and they never have to do any work on it, and they just die best friends or whatever, you know, 60 years later.
01:01:50.079 --> 01:01:51.920
I don't know any of those people.
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:52.800
Right.
01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:59.679
Like I would say everyone I know, and this is a crazy blanket statement, but I'm gonna make it.
01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:02.880
Everyone I know has to work on their marriage.
01:02:03.199 --> 01:02:06.400
It doesn't just come beautifully, right?
01:02:06.480 --> 01:02:14.559
Like they have to work through friction and tension and disagreements and new experiences, right?
01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:18.880
And you also have to work to grow together, right?
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:24.320
Like, because if you don't work on growing together, often you'll grow apart.
01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:25.280
Yeah.
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:25.840
Right.
01:02:25.920 --> 01:02:27.679
And so there's so much work in a marriage.
01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:30.000
It's not just a given thing.
01:02:30.239 --> 01:02:48.719
And so to not be working on the marriage proactively, but to actually be kind of desecrating it or taking away from it is like, hey, like this is our we have to actually care about this thing that we're doing together and put work into it and make it nice.
01:02:48.800 --> 01:02:56.880
And if you're not actually going to show up for our marriage, like I might have to remove myself because it's too heartbreaking for me.
01:02:57.920 --> 01:02:58.559
Yeah.
01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:04.000
Not that you're a bad person, but like it takes two to have a marriage.
01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:04.880
Yeah.
01:03:06.159 --> 01:03:07.599
Yeah, for sure.
01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:08.480
Yeah.
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.400
Well, Charlie, this is we just got started.
01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:17.679
It's like this is like a tip of the very iceberg.
01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:30.639
Um I have um a podcast to record after this, unfortunately, and we're gonna have to to narrow to to start the close, start the descent here of this plane.
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:33.599
But I want I would like to make this part one.
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:34.559
Okay.
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:40.719
And I'd like to come together in the next couple of days if you if you can, and so we could do a part two.
01:03:41.199 --> 01:03:41.519
Okay.
01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:43.760
Is that good with you?
01:03:44.079 --> 01:03:46.079
Yes, 100% of that.
01:03:46.320 --> 01:03:52.159
Uh I have a ton more scenarios that I've written down here too that I want to.
01:03:52.400 --> 01:04:07.920
But some things that I want to talk about next time, so for you listening, just to kind of tease you, too, is I I think it's interesting about what you're saying about family dynamics were the same before the addiction came.
01:04:08.960 --> 01:04:13.119
And they're going to be you, you know, those dynamics are going to carry through.
01:04:13.360 --> 01:04:23.039
And it's a good time, I think, for a family or loved ones to really start to look at, oh, let's let's start analyzing this relationship.
01:04:23.199 --> 01:04:24.400
Let's zoom out.
01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:25.199
Yeah.
01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:29.280
And maybe find out what we could do better as a family anyway.
01:04:29.440 --> 01:04:34.880
What does this what does it what is this addiction a sign of for us and for me?
01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:36.079
Oh, totally.
01:04:36.320 --> 01:04:37.280
Is that right?
01:04:37.679 --> 01:04:38.320
Yes.
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:39.599
Totally.
01:04:39.760 --> 01:04:43.039
Like a addiction is a symptom often.
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:44.559
Right?
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:52.239
Like the the substance use is a symptom of an underlying operational dynamic, right?
01:04:52.320 --> 01:05:00.800
Which again, I think a lot of parents or loved ones would be like, see, it is it is my fault, or it is like something to do with us, or whatever, right?
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:01.360
Like, right.
01:05:01.519 --> 01:05:04.320
So I'm like, don't go there, don't go there, come back, little sheba.
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:16.480
But like, yeah, but like there is a way that the use is solving some kind of issue that the person is having, or some kind of feeling.
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:23.280
It's a relationship to pain, it's a relationship to tension, it's a relationship to intimacy, right?
01:05:23.519 --> 01:05:42.079
So those things just need greater zoom out and reflection and kind of investigation into each individual's family of origin and really like their development of these relationships to themselves to figure out how did we get here?
01:05:42.400 --> 01:05:42.719
Right.
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:47.920
Because it's not, it's not just the last couple of months, it's not just the last year.
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:49.280
Right.
01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:59.760
Like there are things that that were triggered in me or hooked in me that brought us together that are operating now full speed.
01:06:00.559 --> 01:06:01.519
That we're always there.
01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:02.480
Yeah.
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:03.599
Right.
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:08.000
And and truly that happens in almost all relationships.
01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:10.079
And so it is workable.
01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:11.199
It is solvable.
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:14.480
But sometimes it takes a little bit of effort and reflection.
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:16.719
Yeah.
01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:17.519
Yeah.
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.480
I love that.
01:06:18.639 --> 01:06:19.280
I love that.
01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:21.840
So we want to talk about too.
01:06:22.000 --> 01:06:23.519
So next time.
01:06:24.239 --> 01:06:28.000
Dynamics of fr next dynamics of friendship.
01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:33.360
No, like friendships.
01:06:33.440 --> 01:06:35.119
You know, a friend comes to me.
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:36.639
What do I how do I help this?
01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:38.639
You know, I I had a call yesterday.
01:06:38.719 --> 01:06:42.960
He was outside of the re of the treatment center, about to pick up his friend.
01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:45.679
He said, This is his fifth time this year.
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:49.760
You know, I'm about to take a stand with him and I'm going to tell him this and this.
01:06:49.920 --> 01:06:53.280
You know, you know, anyway, so we want to talk about that.
01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:58.480
We want to talk about siblings, how siblings, that that dynamic as well.
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:05.440
Um, more about partners, too, because there's a lot of that here in the kid of sex world.
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:11.840
Um, so we want to talk, we want to dive deeper into more scenarios and and more tips.
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:24.639
Um, I think I know if you're listening that you have, I know you're getting a ton out of what Charlie is saying because it's intelligent, it's experienced, it's beautifully put, full of compassion.
01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:28.400
And I just I I love I love your approach.
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.199
I love how you think, I love how you deliver.
01:07:31.840 --> 01:07:38.880
Um, and I just think I just think you're going to this, you are going to have such an impact around the world.
01:07:39.039 --> 01:07:43.760
And I just want to say, are are you accepting clients right now, by the way?
01:07:44.079 --> 01:07:52.079
I have a couple openings right now, and I'm also working on my own like codependency course that people can get.
01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:53.360
Sign me up.
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:54.639
Sign me up.
01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:01.360
Um, yeah, so we'll put your contact information in the show notes.
01:08:01.519 --> 01:08:07.599
Please reach out to Charlie if you have liked what you've heard today, uh what you've heard today, and I know you will.
01:08:07.679 --> 01:08:08.800
We're going to have a part two.
01:08:08.960 --> 01:08:13.679
So, what I'd like to do is probably have um uh bonus episode.
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:22.000
We'll do that, um, especially as we approach our um our collaborative project coming up, the webinar series.
01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:24.319
Yes, which I'll be so excited for.
01:08:24.399 --> 01:08:29.920
And I love like, you know, like getting live questions and oh yeah, diving into the stuff, you know.
01:08:30.000 --> 01:08:31.680
So it's I think it's gonna be great.
01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:37.359
Yeah, and uh I'm glad you said that because closer to it, we want to do some live episodes.
01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:39.119
We want to, you know, advertise them.
01:08:39.279 --> 01:08:42.479
We're gonna do I've never done a live stream podcast yet.
01:08:42.640 --> 01:08:47.039
I have the ability to do that, but we could do some live stream and get live questions.
01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:50.000
Um, I think that would be so helpful as well.
01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:51.279
I think so too.
01:08:51.520 --> 01:08:51.920
Yeah.
01:08:52.399 --> 01:08:53.359
Charlie, thank you.
01:08:53.920 --> 01:08:55.279
No, thank you.
01:08:56.079 --> 01:09:02.000
Yeah, I just I I'm so grateful to be on here, and I love the way that you dive into all of this.
01:09:02.159 --> 01:09:16.000
I told you when I met you, like I I have to compliment you how sincere and and truly humble you are in your approach and your questions and how curious you are too, even though you have so much experience.
01:09:16.079 --> 01:09:18.800
And so I just want to thank you for letting me be on.
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:19.439
Wow.
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:23.600
Well, thank you for being the first person ever to refer to me as humble.
01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:34.399
Okay, you know, maybe there are some parts that aren't humble, but that's true too, but I I experience a lot of your humility.
01:09:35.199 --> 01:09:36.399
You see the humble part.
01:09:38.720 --> 01:09:39.439
Love it.
01:09:40.159 --> 01:09:40.800
Thank you.
01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:46.159
All right, guys, I hope you're ready for for part two, and we will see you all next time.
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:47.279
Bye.