Understanding Teen Suicide & Mental Health: What Every Parent and Ally Must Know

Host
00:01:13
As you have likely seen either on social media or via an email or two, September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

Host
00:01:23
Over the past few years I've had the opportunity to interview a number of different people on the topic who have shared stories, tips and very actionable strategies.

Host
00:01:34
I've taken powerful segments of each conversation and put them into one episode for you today.

Host
00:01:41
As I was re listening to each episode, there were a few recurring themes that I wanted to share before we even got started.

Host
00:01:49
The first is suicide is a preventable tragedy.

Host
00:01:54
The second is everyone wants to create awareness but we're already aware teen suicide is a human connection problem.

Host
00:02:05
The third is it is so important to show our kids that we are human.

Host
00:02:11
The fourth is that talking about suicide with our kids is proven to reduce risk, not increase it.

Host
00:02:19
And the fifth is listening.

Host
00:02:22
Really hearing what our kids are saying and telling us is so very important we can stop suicide with our ears.

Host
00:02:31
Here are some really important crisis numbers for you to have on hand.

Host
00:02:36
988 is the suicide and Crisis Lifeline and the Trevor Project for LGBTQ Youth has a phone line that is 866-488-7396 or you can text the word START to 678678.

Host
00:02:56
I will link the full episodes in the show notes.

Host
00:03:01
I hope this is really, really helpful.

Host
00:03:05
This is very important information and we will explore it much more deeply in the next episode.

Host
00:03:13
I'm honored to have Jay Reed with me today on Just Breathe.

Host
00:03:18
Jay is an accomplished and multi talented businessman and devoted husband and father of four.

Host
00:03:25
Two years ago in March, his life was turned upside down when he lost his youngest son to suicide.

Host
00:03:33
Shocked and devastated, Jay wondered how they had missed the signs.

Host
00:03:38
In working through his intense grief, Jay decided to take action.

Host
00:03:44
His TEDx talk and documentary are raw and truly extraordinary.

Host
00:03:50
Both open viewers eyes to the devastation that is the teen suicide epidemic and encourage all parents, actually anyone who knows a kid to become better educated and work toward ending this very preventable tragedy.

Host
00:04:11
Jay, I want you to know how grateful I am that you are here today and just really thankful that you're willing to share your story with me and with my audience.

Host
00:04:25
It is heart wrenching, it is powerful and it's really important.

Jay Reed
00:04:33
I'm a guy who has what I always thought is a wonderful family life.

Jay Reed
00:04:38
Spent a lot of time with my kids.

Jay Reed
00:04:41
I there was never any signs anybody was struggling that I ever saw.

Jay Reed
00:04:46
My wife and I had a to celebrate her birthday middle of March last two years ago and on March 21st it was nighttime.

Jay Reed
00:04:55
It was 11:03pm and we had a text from my youngest, Ryan, who had just turned 14 and text said goodbye.

Jay Reed
00:05:10
There was a little more to it.

Jay Reed
00:05:13
He sent individual texts that to the whole family and that night he killed himself.

Jay Reed
00:05:20
It was not a spontaneous thing.

Jay Reed
00:05:25
He had planned it, been thinking about it well over a year, made sure that Kim and I were out of town.

Jay Reed
00:05:36
He knew where to go, where he wouldn't be found in time.

Jay Reed
00:05:39
I'll save you all the, the pain of trying to get home and get to the hospital and.

Jay Reed
00:05:48
But essentially that was on the 21st of March.

Jay Reed
00:05:51
On the 26th of March, we took him off life support.

Jay Reed
00:05:54
I talked about this all the time.

Jay Reed
00:05:57
I speak different places and you think it would get easier to say.

Host
00:06:07
No.

Jay Reed
00:06:08
But doesn't it's always this first couple of minutes.

Jay Reed
00:06:13
Sorry.

Host
00:06:14
Don't apologize.

Host
00:06:16
Please admire your strength in being able to share this because there are not words.

Host
00:06:26
Heartbreaking, heart wrenching, gut wrenching.

Host
00:06:31
Just thinking about what, you know, what you went through, what your wife went through, what your children, other children went through and what your baby boy went through.

Host
00:06:42
And I thought about this a lot since I first watched your TEDx talk and thinking, oh my goodness, we think 14 is so young and they're not aware of all of the things they really are aware of.

Jay Reed
00:06:58
I didn't understand and my mission has become to help parents understand what I missed.

Jay Reed
00:07:07
So I'm a guy who takes action.

Jay Reed
00:07:09
So I did what every other person would want to do is you start a website, right?

Host
00:07:14
Absolutely.

Jay Reed
00:07:15
So that's what I want Ryan to do.

Jay Reed
00:07:17
I said I want, I would really like to.

Jay Reed
00:07:21
Yeah.

Jay Reed
00:07:21
Chose.

Jay Reed
00:07:22
Chose life.

Host
00:07:24
You talk about having a new approach to mental health and specifically suicide prevention and young people and teenagers.

Host
00:07:34
Can you talk some, a little bit about that?

Jay Reed
00:07:37
As I looked at this and I'm not a doctor, I'm not a professional in this space.

Jay Reed
00:07:43
I'm just a guy lost a kid.

Jay Reed
00:07:46
But I spent a lot of time looking at this and trying to understand how we got here.

Jay Reed
00:07:52
So the documentary is really all about me trying to share with parents what happened and what I missed.

Jay Reed
00:08:00
And we go and we interview kids that have attempted.

Jay Reed
00:08:02
We talk to parents and we talk to professionals and there's a picture that emerges of a world we live in now that's not the world we used to live in.

Jay Reed
00:08:11
And it really, it was meant to give you something that you could watch and learn and hopefully go home and make some changes in the relationships you have with your kids and your friends and your loved ones.

Jay Reed
00:08:24
Everybody wants to raise Awareness for teen suicide.

Jay Reed
00:08:26
But everybody's aware, everybody is aware that it exists.

Jay Reed
00:08:32
Your kids are aware of it, but it keeps going up every year.

Jay Reed
00:08:36
It's the number two killer of our kids.

Jay Reed
00:08:39
In 2017, it was 5,000 kids.

Jay Reed
00:08:41
2018, it was 5,700 kids.

Jay Reed
00:08:44
2019.

Jay Reed
00:08:45
Stats are not out yet, but early words say they'll be higher.

Jay Reed
00:08:49
It's getting worse and worse.

Jay Reed
00:08:51
And when I grew up, I'm 53 years of age.

Jay Reed
00:08:54
40 years ago, when I was 13 years of age, I didn't.

Jay Reed
00:08:59
This didn't exist to the same level as it does today.

Jay Reed
00:09:02
So how did we get here?

Jay Reed
00:09:04
We created it.

Jay Reed
00:09:06
It's a man made problem.

Jay Reed
00:09:09
We are not as connected with our kids as we used to be.

Jay Reed
00:09:15
We're on our cell phones there on their cell phones, we're watching tv.

Jay Reed
00:09:18
And then you mess around with your brother and sister and eventually you get in trouble and your mom would kick you outside whether snow or not.

Jay Reed
00:09:24
And you figure out something to do and you play and you come back in till dinnertime, at dinner time.

Jay Reed
00:09:30
And then you sit at the dinner table as a family and you hear about each other's days and then you would go do something together.

Jay Reed
00:09:37
Maybe you watch a TV show together, you watch Disney, you do something completely different.

Jay Reed
00:09:44
Now these days that's not the way the world works.

Jay Reed
00:09:47
We are disconnected as a family.

Jay Reed
00:09:49
We are not connected with our kids, we're not connected with each other.

Jay Reed
00:09:53
And when you take a look at how we got here, that's how we got here.

Jay Reed
00:09:58
Right now there's more to it.

Jay Reed
00:10:00
I remember being 13, 14 years of age and I don't remember anything going on in the world.

Jay Reed
00:10:08
There were wars, there were problems.

Jay Reed
00:10:10
I'm sure there was.

Jay Reed
00:10:10
I can look back in history and go, when I was that age, that's what was going on.

Jay Reed
00:10:14
I didn't know the news was on at 6 o'clock till 6, 30, maybe 7.

Jay Reed
00:10:20
My father watched it.

Jay Reed
00:10:21
I sure as heck didn't.

Jay Reed
00:10:23
I didn't read the newspaper at 13 years of age.

Jay Reed
00:10:25
I had no idea what was going on in the world.

Jay Reed
00:10:27
And I liked it that way.

Jay Reed
00:10:29
Yep, you take a look at kids now.

Jay Reed
00:10:32
And here we are, it's, it's February 7th, 2020.

Jay Reed
00:10:37
Your kids right now at 12, 13, 14 years of age.

Jay Reed
00:10:42
If they have a cell phone with access to the Internet, here's what they're worried about.

Jay Reed
00:10:45
That you never had to think about.

Jay Reed
00:10:47
Are they going to die because the coronavirus is going to come over the States and kill them.

Host
00:10:53
Yep, you're exactly right.

Host
00:10:56
My 12 year old asks me that on a daily basis.

Jay Reed
00:11:00
Like the anxiety.

Host
00:11:01
Yeah.

Host
00:11:03
Oh yeah.

Jay Reed
00:11:03
And then if that's not gonna happen, we only have eight years left to live on this planet.

Jay Reed
00:11:07
Because people say it's gonna die in eight years.

Host
00:11:10
Correct.

Host
00:11:11
My oldest was just saying that the other day.

Host
00:11:15
There's some countdown app that these kids can get on that tells you this.

Host
00:11:20
It's craziness.

Jay Reed
00:11:21
So here I'm a 13 year old kid and besides my bullies, besides my homework, which is more than it used to be, besides the pressure to have straight A's which we didn't have that pressure when I grew up.

Jay Reed
00:11:34
And then I've got to be.

Jay Reed
00:11:36
I'm on the baseball team, but I'm on the travel baseball team because I think I've got a chance of being a baseball legend.

Jay Reed
00:11:43
All the pressure of just being a kid, which is even more than it ever was.

Jay Reed
00:11:47
Now I've got to worry if I'm going to die, if the world's going to collapse.

Jay Reed
00:11:54
The anxiety the kids have today is so much more than it ever was when we grew up.

Jay Reed
00:12:02
And that's the message I'm trying to get across to parents is that we created this problem.

Jay Reed
00:12:09
Not intentionally, we didn't intentionally create it, but we created a world where everything is accessible and everybody knows everything and there's fake news and this and that out there and we don't do a good enough job as parents.

Jay Reed
00:12:20
I didn't.

Jay Reed
00:12:22
Of having the conversation with our kids about how they really feel and their anxiety levels are off the charts.

Host
00:12:29
You're absolutely right.

Host
00:12:31
Until we wrap our heads around that it isn't.

Host
00:12:36
This world is not the world we grew up in.

Host
00:12:38
It is so different.

Host
00:12:40
And we understand the effect that all this social media, all of the you just named every single thing, the incredible amounts of homework, the pressure to be on a sports team and to be the best, to be the best at every single thing you do.

Host
00:12:58
They'll come to me occasionally.

Host
00:12:59
I'm bored.

Host
00:13:00
Good.

Host
00:13:02
That's good.

Host
00:13:04
Because it gives them that chance to like decompress.

Host
00:13:09
Put your phone away, go outside, talk with your friends to their faces and not on their phones.

Host
00:13:17
You have absolutely hit the nail on the head with connecting and connecting with our kids and not being afraid to connect.

Host
00:13:26
And I think that's another.

Host
00:13:29
What are your thoughts on that?

Jay Reed
00:13:31
I think that first of all we.

Jay Reed
00:13:34
I never recognized and I think most parents don't recognize all the things we're just talking about right now.

Jay Reed
00:13:39
The differences.

Jay Reed
00:13:40
They haven't, we haven't made the connection, all the differences.

Host
00:13:43
Absolutely.

Jay Reed
00:13:44
Now we're like, going, what do we do about it?

Jay Reed
00:13:45
It's easy.

Jay Reed
00:13:46
When I go check in on my kid and they say, oh, I'm fine.

Jay Reed
00:13:50
You go, okay, you're fine.

Jay Reed
00:13:51
Because guess what?

Jay Reed
00:13:53
I'm not so thankful myself.

Host
00:13:57
Exactly.

Jay Reed
00:13:59
Right?

Jay Reed
00:13:59
So the first thing you have to realize is when a kid says, I'm fine, they're not fine.

Jay Reed
00:14:06
There's a wide range of words they can choose.

Jay Reed
00:14:08
I'm great, I'm good.

Jay Reed
00:14:09
I'm awesome.

Jay Reed
00:14:11
I'm sad, I'm mad, I'm upset.

Jay Reed
00:14:13
Fine is right in the middle.

Host
00:14:14
Which means, no, you're not absolutely correct.

Jay Reed
00:14:18
And it's inconvenient being a parent because you're like, oh, crap.

Host
00:14:25
Yes.

Jay Reed
00:14:26
I don't have time for this.

Jay Reed
00:14:29
Right.

Jay Reed
00:14:30
Because our lives are busy, too, I guess.

Host
00:14:33
But it is the single most important thing we can do.

Jay Reed
00:14:37
It is.

Jay Reed
00:14:38
And I obviously didn't do a very good job of it, and a lot of parents don't.

Jay Reed
00:14:42
And just because you're not a perfect parent, because none of us are, doesn't mean.

Jay Reed
00:14:48
You mean my situation.

Jay Reed
00:14:50
I just want everybody to pay attention to it because I didn't see it coming.

Jay Reed
00:14:54
I didn't realize that Ryan's spending so much time in his room by himself was a sign of anything.

Jay Reed
00:14:58
I thought it was how kids are these days.

Jay Reed
00:15:01
He's my younger son, about 4.

Jay Reed
00:15:02
He's just.

Jay Reed
00:15:03
That kid isn't all that social.

Jay Reed
00:15:05
He's on, but he's on his computer with his friend, so I guess he's doing something right.

Jay Reed
00:15:09
I didn't recognize all the signs.

Jay Reed
00:15:11
And I use grumpy.

Jay Reed
00:15:13
I thought, he's just grumpy.

Host
00:15:15
He's a teenager.

Jay Reed
00:15:16
He said he's fine.

Jay Reed
00:15:17
He must be fine.

Jay Reed
00:15:19
He does laugh.

Jay Reed
00:15:20
We had a fun night last night.

Jay Reed
00:15:22
We had dinner.

Jay Reed
00:15:22
We sat around the table, and we were.

Jay Reed
00:15:24
That there's no.

Jay Reed
00:15:25
There are zero electronics at our dinner table.

Jay Reed
00:15:28
I wrote a freaking book called Dinner Conversations, which is all about the funny stories that happen around our dinner table, trying to get parents to understand they should not have their phones at the dinner table.

Jay Reed
00:15:37
That's how ironic this whole thing is.

Host
00:15:39
And you are the guy that.

Host
00:15:42
It blows my mind just knowing the more I learn about you that this did happen in your family because you.

Host
00:15:50
You are connected.

Host
00:15:52
You were connected.

Host
00:15:54
You just didn't realize because these kids are very good at hiding what they don't want us to know and wanted to hide it.

Host
00:16:03
Yes.

Jay Reed
00:16:04
But he did that.

Jay Reed
00:16:05
Because when you think about why he did it, here I am I'm that guy.

Jay Reed
00:16:09
I'm that guy who owns companies, never has a problem.

Jay Reed
00:16:13
My kids never saw me cry.

Jay Reed
00:16:15
I'm a black belt.

Jay Reed
00:16:16
I'm an ironman guy.

Jay Reed
00:16:19
People would say, I'm successful.

Jay Reed
00:16:20
I've written eight books.

Jay Reed
00:16:21
Everything in my life goes great according to Ryan.

Jay Reed
00:16:23
What I show people in my family is that I handle all my stuff and everything gets done.

Jay Reed
00:16:31
Everything's great.

Jay Reed
00:16:32
And like Ryan and my wife and my kids never knew the fact that I failed at a whole bunch of companies, that I've almost been bankrupt a couple of times.

Jay Reed
00:16:40
I never told anybody that it happened around them.

Jay Reed
00:16:43
They never saw it.

Jay Reed
00:16:44
So I portrayed this vision to Ryan that life is wonderful and great and never has a problem and I can solve all my stuff.

Jay Reed
00:16:50
So what is Ryan role model?

Jay Reed
00:16:52
He looks at his life and goes, my wife, my life sucks.

Jay Reed
00:16:56
There must be something wrong with me.

Host
00:16:59
The humanness, being human.

Host
00:17:01
I never showed it because we weren't brought up that way either.

Host
00:17:06
We never knew that's what we were supposed to do.

Host
00:17:08
We thought as parents, what did you think?

Host
00:17:10
I have to be this perfect role model.

Host
00:17:13
I have to show my kids.

Host
00:17:15
That's right, Exactly.

Host
00:17:17
And showing him and showing everyone around you that you're human is not part of that formula.

Jay Reed
00:17:24
But unfortunately, then Ryan thought talking about his problems wasn't something he should do.

Jay Reed
00:17:29
So when you asked earlier, what should parents do?

Jay Reed
00:17:31
I'm like, you have to talk to your kids more than I did.

Jay Reed
00:17:34
And you have to.

Jay Reed
00:17:34
If you see something that doesn't look right, you have to ask them, have you thought about hurting yourself?

Jay Reed
00:17:41
And that is a hard conversation for a parent to have, because in their mind, they're going.

Jay Reed
00:17:47
I'm not going to say, have you ever thought about suicide to my kid?

Host
00:17:50
Right?

Jay Reed
00:17:51
Let me help you.

Jay Reed
00:17:53
The idea is in their head.

Jay Reed
00:17:55
Most of them have thought about it or at least aware that it exists.

Jay Reed
00:18:01
And if you don't ask, you may not find out.

Jay Reed
00:18:05
And if you do ask, a lot of them want to tell you.

Jay Reed
00:18:11
They're just like, yes, I've thought about it.

Jay Reed
00:18:12
What do I do?

Host
00:18:14
You open that door and remember, this.

Jay Reed
00:18:17
Is the big thing, too, because I was so guilty of this.

Jay Reed
00:18:20
They come to you and they want to talk.

Jay Reed
00:18:21
They finally open up and talk to you and they tell you how they're just so overwhelmed and the world is tough and all this stuff.

Jay Reed
00:18:30
And what's our natural response as parents, especially as dads?

Jay Reed
00:18:34
Hey, let me tell you why you should be really happy, right?

Jay Reed
00:18:39
Your life is perfect compared to when I grew up.

Jay Reed
00:18:43
You know what my father was like, holy crap.

Jay Reed
00:18:46
You have no idea what it's like to.

Jay Reed
00:18:48
Why are you upset about anything?

Jay Reed
00:18:51
Because we want to fix it, right?

Jay Reed
00:18:52
We want to show them that something's better, that their life is great, and we think we're doing the right thing.

Jay Reed
00:18:56
And what we're doing is we're driving them deeper into a hole because they just came to you and told you whether it's rational to you or not.

Jay Reed
00:19:04
They told you they're not feeling right about life.

Jay Reed
00:19:07
Trying to fix it just makes them go, I shouldn't talk to you about this.

Host
00:19:11
We're all.

Host
00:19:12
Every one of us, every parent is guilty of.

Host
00:19:16
Because we do.

Host
00:19:17
We just want to make it better.

Host
00:19:18
We want them not to be sad, not to be scared.

Host
00:19:22
We want them to be happy.

Host
00:19:23
We want them to find their passion.

Host
00:19:26
We are in uncharted territory, right?

Host
00:19:28
Because there's a huge disconnect and it seems very big between what we learned, what we know, and what will help us to be successful parents and help just have that connection with our kids.

Jay Reed
00:19:48
And we want to believe that.

Jay Reed
00:19:50
When you talk to someone like myself who's never experienced depression, we don't understand.

Jay Reed
00:19:56
So I can look for someone who's depressed.

Jay Reed
00:19:58
I've learned this now.

Jay Reed
00:19:59
It can be a sunny day, and I look up and it's a sunny day.

Jay Reed
00:20:01
And what do they see?

Jay Reed
00:20:02
They see clouds.

Jay Reed
00:20:04
And you go, there's not a cloud in the sky.

Jay Reed
00:20:06
No, there's clouds in the sky.

Jay Reed
00:20:07
There's not a cloud in the sky.

Jay Reed
00:20:09
No, it's a cloudy day.

Jay Reed
00:20:10
You can't understand their minds.

Jay Reed
00:20:12
And so don't try to understand their minds except the fact that they see what they see and they feel what they feel and just hold them tight and love them.

Jay Reed
00:20:21
Let them talk about it.

Host
00:20:24
Yep, that is spot on.

Host
00:20:27
They need to feel heard and they need to feel loved.

Jay Reed
00:20:31
That's what they need.

Jay Reed
00:20:34
And that's how.

Jay Reed
00:20:35
Honestly, my mission is saying that we should end teen suicide as opposed to raise awareness about it.

Jay Reed
00:20:41
And that's really how we do it as parents.

Jay Reed
00:20:44
We take responsibility for the mental health of our kids the same way as we take responsibility for the how they feel when they have a flu or a headache.

Host
00:20:59
So I now want to introduce my guest for today, who I am so excited for you to hear from.

Host
00:21:09
Her name is Cara McNulty.

Host
00:21:11
She is a DPA and she is the president of Aetna Behavioral Health, which is part of the CVS Health Company.

Host
00:21:20
She is passionate about supporting and advocating for our adolescents, teens and young Adults, as well as educating people of all ages, the importance of mental health well being.

Host
00:21:34
Cara, thank you so much for being here with me today and discussing this really important topic.

Host
00:21:42
It's very timely as we are in the month of suicide prevention awareness and I believe that you have some really important, not only information, but tips to share with us today.

Host
00:21:56
So I'm really excited to just jump in and learn from you and have my audience learn from you.

Host
00:22:05
So I would like to just get started with you telling us who you are and how you got into just being really focused on mental health and suicide prevention specifically.

Cara McNulty
00:22:19
Thank you first of all, Heather, for having me.

Cara McNulty
00:22:21
I am passionate about mental health and mental well being and it's an honor to be here.

Cara McNulty
00:22:28
And so I am passionate about supporting children, families and communities in addressing mental health wellbeing so that everyone can be their best.

Host
00:22:40
You are in the middle of it, getting to experience it with your own kids, which I think sometimes is.

Host
00:22:48
It makes everything a little bit more amplified.

Host
00:22:51
Do you find that?

Cara McNulty
00:22:53
Absolutely.

Cara McNulty
00:22:54
Yes, absolutely.

Cara McNulty
00:22:56
I often say that parenting, and even before I had children, my husband and I have 19 nieces and nephews.

Cara McNulty
00:23:05
Being an aunt and uncle is the most rewarding and the most challenging work that I have done and will ever do.

Host
00:23:15
What I really love that you are doing is, or what you've been doing is this study and this focus on mental health, which has really started to come in the forefront of, oh, this is important.

Host
00:23:32
And not just important, but it's equally important to physical health.

Host
00:23:36
Paying attention to mental health, it's not you're broken, it's not something's wrong with you, it's something that is just part of how you're made.

Host
00:23:49
So I'm wondering if you can talk about that because you've been studying this kind of through this wonderful emergence.

Cara McNulty
00:23:58
Absolutely.

Cara McNulty
00:23:59
Heather, you're spot on.

Cara McNulty
00:24:01
We aren't separate beings.

Cara McNulty
00:24:05
We are our heads, we are our hearts, we are our whole self.

Cara McNulty
00:24:09
And to separate those two out really increases stigma and bifurcates support.

Cara McNulty
00:24:17
And for a long time that's how we treated mental health, as if it is something separate.

Cara McNulty
00:24:24
And you'll hear me use the term mental wellbeing because mental wellbeing is at the core of our health.

Cara McNulty
00:24:32
It is at the absolute core.

Cara McNulty
00:24:34
Without strong mental health wellbeing, it impacts your physical health, it impacts your social health, it impacts your ability to connect with others.

Cara McNulty
00:24:46
And so your mental health well being is at the core.

Cara McNulty
00:24:51
And so we can't separate our heads from our hearts, from our physical, from who we Are.

Cara McNulty
00:24:57
So that's number one.

Cara McNulty
00:24:59
And often people say to me, oh my gosh, you have two teenagers.

Cara McNulty
00:25:03
How can you even.

Cara McNulty
00:25:05
Isn't it so hard?

Cara McNulty
00:25:07
Oh my gosh, the teenage years.

Cara McNulty
00:25:08
And one of the things, Heather, that I always go to is how lucky am I to have two teenagers and to be an advocate for teens and young adults because they're the coolest, unique, different, fierce, often unheard group of individuals I believe we have in our communities.

Cara McNulty
00:25:31
And helping them be their best is where we as adults have just an awesome opportunity.

Cara McNulty
00:25:38
And so absolutely there has been this awareness and rising of the importance for mental health and mental well being.

Cara McNulty
00:25:47
And now is our time as communities and adults to support these unbelievable young, vibrant adolescents.

Host
00:25:57
Right.

Host
00:25:57
I love that you said that.

Host
00:26:00
I was just having that conversation with my third, she's 16 yesterday, and she was saying, oh, people just, they blow us off, they don't listen to what we have to say.

Host
00:26:12
And I said that is true.

Host
00:26:14
I said, but you just keep going because your voices are so powerful.

Host
00:26:18
And it is a perspective that as a adults we lose.

Host
00:26:22
Once you go through, you get into your 30s, 40s, you lose that kind of just lovely, pure way of looking at things.

Host
00:26:31
And they do, they have this fabulous energy and this, it is so extraordinary and we can learn so much from them.

Host
00:26:38
And I think that is, to your point, such a gift.

Cara McNulty
00:26:43
First, we have to start with.

Cara McNulty
00:26:47
Mental well being is something we focus on every single day.

Cara McNulty
00:26:51
And that means all of us, no matter who we are, will experience some kind of mental well being disruption.

Cara McNulty
00:27:01
It might be stress, it might be situational anxiety, it might be feeling as if we don't fit in, it might be substance use, it might be a serious mental illness, but everyone will experience it and in life will experience some really amazing things.

Cara McNulty
00:27:22
And with that also comes grief and loss.

Cara McNulty
00:27:24
So everyone will have some kind of mental health disruption in their lives.

Cara McNulty
00:27:30
So important that we acknowledge that this is normal, this is completely normal.

Cara McNulty
00:27:36
Number two is that we embrace this, that this isn't something that we shouldn't talk about.

Cara McNulty
00:27:42
This is how do we talk about this even more.

Cara McNulty
00:27:46
And if there's anything that's come out of the pandemic, it is the ability to listen to those adolescent and young teen voices in a magnified manner.

Cara McNulty
00:27:58
They are telling us what they need.

Cara McNulty
00:28:00
They are saying, I am isolated, I feel lonely, I am scared, I don't understand.

Cara McNulty
00:28:08
And if we listen and if we pay attention, they're telling us what they need.

Cara McNulty
00:28:12
If you look at the data, the CDC puts out an unbelievable report called the Youth Risk Behavior Survey.

Cara McNulty
00:28:24
And when we look at that data, nearly 10% of youth grades nine through 12 thought about, at least thought about or attempted suicide once.

Cara McNulty
00:28:37
10%.

Cara McNulty
00:28:38
And if you think about during the pandemic, young adults in College, age 1 in 4, contemplated hurting themselves.

Cara McNulty
00:28:47
People are thinking about it.

Cara McNulty
00:28:49
People are lonely.

Cara McNulty
00:28:50
People are scared.

Cara McNulty
00:28:52
And what we have the power to do is bring voice and sound and support and resources to this population.

Host
00:29:03
Right.

Cara McNulty
00:29:03
You can demystify that.

Cara McNulty
00:29:05
You are on your own and you're alone, because you're not.

Host
00:29:09
No, no.

Host
00:29:11
And I think that is one of the most important pieces of this, is letting them know they are not alone.

Host
00:29:18
And I hear you, I see you, I hear you.

Host
00:29:23
We can do something about this.

Host
00:29:24
There are things that can be done.

Host
00:29:26
And so I think that is just incredibly powerful.

Host
00:29:31
And I do, even though this is going to sound weird, but I think it is actually one of the weird positives that have come from this pandemic is that there has been this spotlight put on mental health and for our kids.

Host
00:29:49
Our teenagers are really for our entire population.

Host
00:29:53
Right.

Host
00:29:54
And I.

Host
00:29:56
I get very excited about that and just so happy when we have these conversations because they're so important.

Cara McNulty
00:30:04
It's so true.

Cara McNulty
00:30:05
There is so many pos positives that have come, and we have to think as communities, as health care providers, as parents.

Cara McNulty
00:30:16
Are we listening?

Cara McNulty
00:30:17
And often I get asked, what can I do?

Cara McNulty
00:30:20
Or as an aunt or an uncle or as a community member or a neighbor, someone who works with teens and adolescents.

Cara McNulty
00:30:28
And maybe I can just share a couple of things.

Host
00:30:30
Of course, yes, we, we.

Cara McNulty
00:30:32
There has been a myth that if you talk about suicide, that it encourages suicide.

Cara McNulty
00:30:39
And we know that isn't true.

Host
00:30:41
Yeah.

Cara McNulty
00:30:42
Talking about suicide, talking about openly about struggles and listening to what people are saying and asking people, I hear you struggling and I hear you saying that some things that concern me.

Cara McNulty
00:30:59
Are you thinking about hurting yourself?

Cara McNulty
00:31:01
Are you thinking about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty
00:31:03
Have you thought about suicide?

Cara McNulty
00:31:06
Those conversations are hard and they take courage.

Cara McNulty
00:31:09
What we know is they don't encourage suicide.

Cara McNulty
00:31:12
What they do is they discourage.

Cara McNulty
00:31:15
And it helps our young adults and teens feel heard.

Cara McNulty
00:31:21
One myth I want to get right out of the way is talking about it only improves what happens, only improves.

Cara McNulty
00:31:31
So to really debunk that we shouldn't be talking about it and asking those hard questions, it takes practice.

Host
00:31:39
It does absolutely take practice.

Host
00:31:41
It absolutely does.

Host
00:31:43
And it is hard.

Cara McNulty
00:31:45
It is hard.

Cara McNulty
00:31:46
Here's the reality is we don't have to do it perfect.

Cara McNulty
00:31:50
The words don't have to come out beautifully.

Cara McNulty
00:31:54
We just have to.

Cara McNulty
00:31:55
We have to say them.

Cara McNulty
00:31:57
Are you okay?

Cara McNulty
00:31:58
I hear you sound like you're struggling.

Cara McNulty
00:32:01
Are you thinking about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty
00:32:04
Have you thought about harming yourself?

Cara McNulty
00:32:07
Are you thinking about suicide?

Cara McNulty
00:32:09
And those things become easier the more we talk about them.

Host
00:32:15
Jackie is the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society, which is a nonprofit 501.

Host
00:32:24
And their mission is to make teen suicide a thing of the past.

Host
00:32:29
And the way that they go about this is different than anything else that we have come across.

Host
00:32:36
I am really excited for you to learn from her today and to just hear all of the information that she has to offer us and to share with us and really teach us about how we should have these talks that save lives.

Host
00:32:55
That's what she calls them.

Host
00:32:56
And they truly are just amazing.

Host
00:33:01
They're not about the doom and gloom.

Host
00:33:03
They're not scary.

Host
00:33:05
And this will just really, I think, give you such a shift.

Host
00:33:09
So without further ado, I am so excited to share Jackie Simmons with you.

Host
00:33:17
So, Jackie, I am so excited that you are here with us today and that we get to hear not only your really moving story, but what you have been doing with your story and with your life and with this passion project that you have.

Host
00:33:38
So let's just start out with telling my audience a little bit about you and what got you into this type of work.

Jackie Simmons
00:33:50
Oh, thank you.

Jackie Simmons
00:33:52
What got me into this type of work, what gets us on your podcast is the fact that we're parents and we've been there, done that, and survived to tell the story.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:05
And my story of how I got into doing what I'm doing now as the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society is not even my story.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:19
It's my daughter Stephanie's story.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:22
At the age of 37, delivering a seven minute message that matters in the front of a room, her first public speaking, she had been part of a group that I'd been coaching to deliver these seven minute talks.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:36
And she was the first one speaking that day.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:40
She was in a state.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:41
She was both nervous and excited.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:43
That state you get into right before you give a talk.

Host
00:34:46
Yes.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:47
Oh, my God, Heather.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:49
Everything worked that day.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:51
The videographer was set.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:53
The slides worked, the microphones worked, the audience took their seats.

Jackie Simmons
00:34:59
I'm super proud of my daughter.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:00
Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:01
She looked amazing in her dark blouse and flowery skirt and her hair was all pulled up in combs.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:07
She was first up on the speaker's roster.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:10
The lights dimmed and I welcomed her to the front of the stage.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:15
Everyone, help me welcome Stephanie Ashton.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:18
She Confidently walked up and shook my hand, and I went to the back of the room.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:25
And she said, 3,000 teenagers will attempt to take their own lives today in the United States.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:37
And I went, huh?

Jackie Simmons
00:35:39
Thank God.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:40
I was in the back of the room, and nobody could see my expression.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:43
I didn't know the number was that large.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:47
I had no clue.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:49
And Heather, I did not know that suicide was her topic.

Host
00:35:55
Oh, my goodness.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:58
Oh.

Jackie Simmons
00:35:58
She continued with, when I was 14, after a bad day of shopping, I stood in my bathroom.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:09
The pain of not fitting into any clothes was just more proof that I didn't fit in anywhere.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:21
And that pain was more than I could bear.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:26
So I took a razor and cut into my left eye, trying to stop the pain.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:34
And in my life, in the back of the room, I could feel the blood drain from my face.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:45
Because while I had lived through that with her for over 20, 23 years, we hadn't really talked about it.

Jackie Simmons
00:36:57
Have you ever been hijacked by a bad memory?

Host
00:37:01
Yes.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:03
Only my 30 years of stress management training kept me from just crawling into a corner and bawling my eyes out.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:13
Stephanie continued her talk with.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:17
It wasn't my only attempt.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:19
There were others, but outside of getting professional help, I've never really talked about it.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:27
Not even with mom.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:29
Mom and I talked around it.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:32
It was too awkward, too painful, easy to avoid.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:39
We had the other talks.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:41
We had the talk about sex, and mom and I had to talk about drugs, and we had to talk about alcohol.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:49
And then I went to college on a dry campus.

Jackie Simmons
00:37:52
And the next thing she said was, but we didn't talk about suicide.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:00
And I still struggle with suicidal thoughts.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:06
In the back of the room, I went from pale to bone cold as I realized the struggles that my child had faced alone because I didn't have the courage to talk about suicide.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:25
She finished her talk with, on my suicide avoidant journey, I've learned tons of coping skills, and now I want to teach those skills to teens before they need them.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:41
Yes, before they need them.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:43
Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:44
There was not a dry eye in the room, including mine.

Jackie Simmons
00:38:48
And in the back of the room, I was frozen, absolutely torn between pride for her bravery and guilt and shame for my cowardice.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:04
And then an interesting thing happened in my brain, heather.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:08
I realized 3,000 teens attempting to take their own lives every day mean that every day, 6,000 parents start to live the guilt nightmare that I've lived.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:24
And every day, over 20,000 grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters start to live that nightmare.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:35
And every day, hundreds of thousands of classmates Teachers, boyfriends, girlfriends, start to live the guilt nightmare.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:48
All probably just as blindsided by it as I had been.

Jackie Simmons
00:39:54
What if Stephanie was right?

Jackie Simmons
00:39:56
What if the key to stopping teen suicide was as simple as having the talk about suicide before you think it's needed, before your child starts to struggle with suicidal thoughts?

Jackie Simmons
00:40:13
Oh, my God.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:14
The missing link.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:15
Something so simple and obvious that professionals have tripped over it.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:20
After that event, Stephanie and I decided to work together.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:25
Who knew that was possible?

Jackie Simmons
00:40:27
Along with her two sisters, we founded the Teen Suicide Prevention Society and started figuring out how to help people have the talk.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:41
So we call it the talk that saves lives.

Jackie Simmons
00:40:45
And that's the mission that we're on now, is to make sure that everyone knows not only that the talk is needed, but how to have it in a way that doesn't make your teens eyes roll back in their head.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:02
I don't know about you, but have you ever tried to have the talk about one of those topics with a kid?

Ann Moss Rogers
00:41:10
Oh, all of the above.

Host
00:41:13
How does a parent approach this?

Host
00:41:15
Because it is scary.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:17
Oh, I'm so glad you asked.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:19
Actually, I have a great idea.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:20
Because what we did was we created a guide, an absolute.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:24
Let's give you the.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:26
That you can ride on to have this talk.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:29
And we created a really unique way to get it started.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:32
But instead of talking about it, would it be okay if we just role play it and we demonstrate it?

Host
00:41:38
Sure, sure.

Jay Reed
00:41:39
Cool.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:40
Okay, so here's the invitation to the talk.

Ann Moss Rogers
00:41:43
Okay.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:44
Hey, Heather.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:45
I'm part of the mission to make teen suicide a thing of the past.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:50
They gave me a guide and I need to practice it.

Jackie Simmons
00:41:54
Would you have a few minutes to help me practice my guide?

Host
00:41:58
I would be delighted to.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:01
Awesome.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:02
It's only four questions.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:03
Are you ready?

Host
00:42:04
Yes.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:05
All right.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:06
Question one.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:07
Heather, have you heard about the rise in teen suicides?

Host
00:42:13
I haven't.

Host
00:42:14
Will you tell me about it?

Jackie Simmons
00:42:17
Thank you.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:18
In a minute.

Host
00:42:19
Okay.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:21
Question two.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:24
Heather, do you have a story?

Jackie Simmons
00:42:26
Do you have a friend who's tried or died?

Host
00:42:30
Yes, I do have a story.

Host
00:42:33
Several.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:35
Thank you.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:38
Question three.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:40
Heather, have you ever thought of leaving that way?

Host
00:42:44
Yes, I have.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:48
Thank you.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:49
Question 4.

Jackie Simmons
00:42:51
Heather, why stay?

Jackie Simmons
00:42:53
What are your reasons for staying?

Host
00:42:56
So many.

Host
00:42:58
My biggest reasons.

Host
00:42:59
My husband and my kids.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:03
What else?

Host
00:43:06
This beautiful life.

Host
00:43:08
There's just too much beauty and too much that I am passionate and curious about.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:16
Another way to look at it.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:18
Heather, what's so good about your life that you want more of it?

Host
00:43:27
Oh, my goodness.

Host
00:43:28
I think I'm making this harder than it's supposed to be.

Host
00:43:30
Being Here, just.

Host
00:43:32
It's a gift.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:35
And one of the fun things about this Heather, so thank you.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:39
Yay.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:41
So that's the talk.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:43
It is just that simple on the outside.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:48
Anyone can do it.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:50
We've wrapped a full training program around it and it's all available for free on our website.

Jackie Simmons
00:43:57
I love that what happened in your brain is something that.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:05
Are you familiar with neuroplasticity, the neuroscience that's out now?

Jackie Simmons
00:44:09
What's happened in the last decade or so is fascinating with how the brain really works.

Ann Moss Rogers
00:44:15
It is.

Host
00:44:16
It's extraordinary.

Host
00:44:17
Yes.

Host
00:44:17
I'd like to learn how this, how these things correlate.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:21
All right, here we go.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:22
You have had a neural network that had emotional energy around the topic of suicide.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:30
Okay, so the first three questions are closed ended questions.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:34
All of the coaches I've ever trained freak out when they first read the guide because they're like, it's a closed ended question.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:39
And I'm like, yes, and you will keep it this way.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:43
These are verbatim questions.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:45
Everybody promises to actually read the guide.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:48
And now you see why?

Jackie Simmons
00:44:49
Because when I stopped reading the guide, I flubbed the question.

Jackie Simmons
00:44:52
You're activating all of that energy, all of the memories, all of that emotion, and then in a second, the minute your brain starts looking for reasons for staying, all of that energy gets and pushed over into a brand new neural network that starts being built out.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:13
It's like a new file folder in the filing cabinet in your mind, and it's labeled reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:23
So now your reticular activating system.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:27
This is the filter in your brain that allows in less than 10% of what you're exposed to, because otherwise we'd go crazy.

Host
00:45:35
Right.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:35
What it allows in is the percentage that is most closely aligned with where your thinking is, what you believe, what you think about habitually.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:45
So now you've got this new thought, this new file folder labeled reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons
00:45:52
So if a random thought of leaving, which is normal, according to Sigmund Freud, suicidal thoughts are normal.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:00
They're part of the natural negative bias and problem solving mechanism of our brain.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:05
Worst case scenario.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:07
So they're natural, they're normal.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:09
Now one of those thoughts of leaving comes in, it's got to bump up against this file folder of reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:16
So you're less likely to get hooked by it and into a negative echo chamber.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:21
And all that happened in that very short time.

Host
00:46:25
Wow.

Host
00:46:27
Less than five minutes.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:29
Less than five minutes.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:30
You took on a layer of emotional Teflon.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:34
Now here's something freaky.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:36
You ready?

Host
00:46:37
Yes.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:38
So did everyone listening, really?

Jackie Simmons
00:46:43
Because of something called mirror neurons in the mind, in the brain.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:50
When you started looking, when I started asking you the questions, everybody listening, their brains started answering the questions too.

Jackie Simmons
00:46:59
Because we can't help but answer a question.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:02
It's how our brains are wired.

Host
00:47:05
Yeah.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:06
So questions are very powerful.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:08
So everyone listening got this journey, and as soon as you went into your reasons for staying, their brains went into theirs, and they started comparing, contrasting, adding to the reasons for staying folder in their own mind.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:26
Now they have your reasons for staying.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:28
And their brain was like, yeah, that's me.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:30
No, that's not me.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:31
I've got this one.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:31
She didn't say that one.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:33
I wonder what.

Kevin Wong
00:47:33
Yeah.

Jackie Simmons
00:47:34
And so this chatter is going on in their heads, activating this new neural pathway, filling the file folder labeled reasons for staying.

Host
00:47:44
That's amazing.

Host
00:47:47
That is so cool.

Host
00:47:48
And I love science.

Host
00:47:49
That is the coolest science that I've heard in a while.

Host
00:48:51
I am absolutely thrilled to introduce the guests that I have for today, and this is just a really big treat for us because Kevin Wong is from the Trevor Project, which you all know I love and we talk about a lot, and so I'm thrilled to have him here today.

Host
00:49:13
Kevin is the Vice President of communications for the Trevor Project.

Host
00:49:17
The Trevor Project is the world's largest suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people.

Host
00:49:27
He oversees the organization's communication strategy, including media relations, celebrity engagement, internal and executive communications, speaking engagements and awards, crisis communications, and more.

Host
00:49:43
So, Kevin, thank you.

Host
00:49:45
Thank you so much for being here.

Host
00:49:46
I am delighted and honored and just thank you.

Kevin Wong
00:49:51
Thank you so much for having me.

Host
00:49:52
I'm grateful that you had some time today to talk, because 12 months a year, 365 days a year, the Trevor Project is amazing.

Host
00:50:02
And you all are doing.

Host
00:50:03
Doing really amazing things.

Host
00:50:05
But I thought this would be a particularly good time of year to talk with you, since September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

Host
00:50:15
So to that end, I thought it would be really awesome if, in your words, could tell us who the Trevor Project is.

Kevin Wong
00:50:25
So, National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month.

Kevin Wong
00:50:27
You may have seen some of these stats or heard these stats before, but the CDC tells us that suicide is the second leading cause of death among young people.

Kevin Wong
00:50:37
The CDC also tells us that out of.

Kevin Wong
00:50:39
That's already a pretty dark statistic, but out of that, LGBTQ young people are more than four times more likely to attempt suicide than their peers.

Kevin Wong
00:50:49
Our own research shows us that 45% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year.

Kevin Wong
00:50:57
And it's a Little darker for trans young people.

Kevin Wong
00:51:01
Nearly 1 in 5 trans and non binary youth attempted suicide.

Kevin Wong
00:51:05
So these are pretty stark stats.

Kevin Wong
00:51:07
The Trevor Project exists for LGBTQ young people to find the support that they need.

Kevin Wong
00:51:14
You already said it up top.

Kevin Wong
00:51:15
We're the world's largest suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people.

Kevin Wong
00:51:20
But let me lay out our program so you can know what that means in practicality.

Kevin Wong
00:51:24
So we run 24, 7 free and confidential crisis services for LGBTQ youth.

Kevin Wong
00:51:30
So that's our lifeline.

Kevin Wong
00:51:31
Chat and text.

Kevin Wong
00:51:33
You can reach a highly trained counselor.

Kevin Wong
00:51:35
You can talk with them about anything from, hey, I had a really tough day at school today, or I'm just having a tough breakup.

Kevin Wong
00:51:42
I need to talk through it all the way to, hey, I'm imminently thinking about killing myself.

Kevin Wong
00:51:48
All of those things fit within whatever a young person thinks a crisis might be to them.

Kevin Wong
00:51:54
Right.

Kevin Wong
00:51:54
Emotions are specific to different people.

Kevin Wong
00:51:56
So that's our crisis services and crisis intervention.

Kevin Wong
00:52:00
We also have suicide prevention programs that we call our key program areas, and they help us prevent suicide.

Kevin Wong
00:52:06
We help.

Kevin Wong
00:52:07
We have these programs to help prevent young people from being in a moment of crisis in the first place.

Kevin Wong
00:52:12
So that's research.

Kevin Wong
00:52:14
We just talked through some of that education.

Kevin Wong
00:52:16
So making sure that youth facing adults who interact with young people, all the different companies that we work with, different partners and peer organizations, they're educated on suicide risk, working with LGBTQ young people and LGBTQ competencies, et cetera.

Kevin Wong
00:52:30
So research, education, advocacy, making sure that we're fighting and protecting young people federally, statewide, and in different municipalities.

Kevin Wong
00:52:40
And peer support.

Kevin Wong
00:52:41
That's our last key program area, peer support.

Kevin Wong
00:52:44
We have a platform called Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong
00:52:47
That's our safe space social networking site where young people can find peer support.

Kevin Wong
00:52:52
So that might look like a trans young person in Kansas who says they may post, hey, I'm having this kind of experience with my parents.

Kevin Wong
00:53:01
Anyone else out there who can help me, and maybe somebody in Paris answers, and they say, I'm having this exact same challenge.

Kevin Wong
00:53:08
Here's what I did.

Kevin Wong
00:53:08
And they can help each other through that.

Kevin Wong
00:53:10
Peer support is almost a different type of protective factor versus a risk factor.

Kevin Wong
00:53:14
A protective factor where you can see how somebody else might have played out a certain situation.

Kevin Wong
00:53:19
Crisis services, research, education, advocacy, and peer support.

Host
00:53:24
That's incredible.

Host
00:53:25
That is really the one thing that, of course, that I use the most is the research, which you always have new and just.

Host
00:53:34
You're on the cutting edge of research when it comes to understanding what is going on in the LGBTQ community.

Host
00:53:42
And I Love that.

Host
00:53:43
You've also then added on.

Host
00:53:44
You can talked a little bit about doing the advocacy piece with, you know, stepping into, this is what's going on in different states, and this is what's going on in the country, and this is what's going on in the world, and how do we.

Host
00:53:57
What can we do about that?

Host
00:53:59
And that is a really.

Host
00:54:01
Obviously, it's becoming more and more of an important piece right now, and I would like to talk about that, but really quickly, I just want to touch on the peer support, because that is something that I don't think a lot of people realize is available, and that is a question that I get asked a lot, is, is there a space that, you know, my child can go to to talk to somebody else who is trans or who is gay or who is struggling with this particular struggle?

Host
00:54:33
Right.

Host
00:54:33
Whether it's something at school or something.

Host
00:54:36
Whatever it is.

Host
00:54:37
So I love that there is that, aside from the crisis piece, which is those are two different things.

Host
00:54:45
And so really, how.

Host
00:54:48
What is the best way do you find to make this information known, not just to parents, but to our LGBTQ youth, to our kids?

Kevin Wong
00:54:58
Yeah.

Kevin Wong
00:54:59
So you hit the nail on the head.

Kevin Wong
00:55:01
Peer support can be very powerful, and you do not need to be at imminent risk of suicide or suicidal thoughts to sign up for Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong
00:55:09
TrevorSpace.org is the website.

Kevin Wong
00:55:12
So Trevor Space, it's one of those things that my wish and my hope for most young people that they knew this was available to them.

Kevin Wong
00:55:21
It is an international program, so it already is pretty widely used.

Kevin Wong
00:55:24
I'm trying to remember the exact usage, but I think it's something like 500k.

Kevin Wong
00:55:28
Young people use this already, and that's international.

Kevin Wong
00:55:32
Right.

Kevin Wong
00:55:33
So the really cool thing is there are interest groups within Trevor Space.

Kevin Wong
00:55:38
So LGBTQ people, you've probably heard this before.

Kevin Wong
00:55:41
LGBTQ people, young people especially.

Kevin Wong
00:55:43
Not a monolith.

Kevin Wong
00:55:44
Right.

Kevin Wong
00:55:45
Just because we maybe are part of the same acronym, we're part of the same gay community, lesbian community, bi community, trans community, et cetera.

Kevin Wong
00:55:53
We are not a monolith.

Kevin Wong
00:55:54
So the really cool thing about Trevor Space is that there are different interest groups.

Kevin Wong
00:55:58
So regardless of how you identify or regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity, you can find people who maybe share some of those same identities, but also care about the same things, who maybe have the same interests as you.

Kevin Wong
00:56:12
So that could look like, I'm really into art or art.

Kevin Wong
00:56:14
The arts.

Kevin Wong
00:56:15
And you join a group where you're talking about those things among other questions that you may have.

Kevin Wong
00:56:20
And that's Totally fine.

Kevin Wong
00:56:20
It's all mixed in.

Kevin Wong
00:56:21
So another could be for sports or athletes, another could be debate, hobby based or interest based.

Kevin Wong
00:56:28
And some of those are.

Kevin Wong
00:56:29
We suggest them because we understand that there are commonalities in certain arenas and others young people are empowered and they ask for those things.

Kevin Wong
00:56:37
And so our moderators work with young people to make sure that they have spaces to have those conversations where they feel comfortable.

Kevin Wong
00:56:43
But the safe space aspect is definitely where we want to make sure young people are thriving.

Kevin Wong
00:56:48
Because, you know, you might feel comfortable asking this certain questions to folks on Trevor space because they share a unique identity or maybe they share some unique interests and maybe you're less comfortable asking a school counselor or maybe you're less comfortable asking a parent.

Kevin Wong
00:57:04
So having that as a venue for outreach is a really important one.

Host
00:57:09
Absolutely.

Host
00:57:10
Now you mentioned moderators on there.

Host
00:57:12
Is that something that you that that there are people on there who are watching the conversations to make sure that it does remain a safe space or how does that work in there?

Kevin Wong
00:57:23
Yes.

Kevin Wong
00:57:23
So we have moderators and they're constantly taking a look at the things that are posted, but at the same time making sure that they're fostering positive community, making sure that they have the resources they need.

Kevin Wong
00:57:35
And you're also talking about young people who may be at risk or maybe experiencing mental health challenges.

Kevin Wong
00:57:42
So maybe they also see something that's flagged or they flag it themselves and they make sure they get the resources they need.

Host
00:57:49
That's really great.

Host
00:57:51
Now what if another question that comes up, and again, it's not necessarily crisis related, but knowing that there is this safe space, not many kids really want to talk to their parents or another adult, so to speak, like a school counselor about their sexual orientation, about questions they may have about sex or even clothing or how to dress.

Host
00:58:16
And I'm feeling this way, is that a space where they could ask these type of questions or is this really strictly peer type interaction?

Kevin Wong
00:58:29
I found myself thinking, so I've been there.

Kevin Wong
00:58:32
I found myself thinking about my own experiences.

Kevin Wong
00:58:34
When you ask that question, what I would encourage young people to do is yes, definitely go to the folks you feel comfortable asking certain questions to.

Kevin Wong
00:58:42
But at the same time remember that you can check out the trevorproject.org resources and there are plenty of things like the Coming out handbook, for instance, or how to support trans and non binary young people.

Kevin Wong
00:58:55
Those things can help you.

Kevin Wong
00:58:57
You might not identify with those things, but you can learn a lot about certain identities, including ways to explore, for instance, your gender identity.

Kevin Wong
00:59:05
That might look like a social Transition and what that means.

Kevin Wong
00:59:08
Right.

Kevin Wong
00:59:08
So hair, clothing, name change, etc.

Kevin Wong
00:59:12
Before making any other decisions.

Kevin Wong
00:59:14
Or the coming out handbook, for instance, that can help you think through what coming out might look like for you.

Kevin Wong
00:59:19
Never prescriptive.

Kevin Wong
00:59:20
Right.

Kevin Wong
00:59:21
Same with when you call our 247 crisis services.

Kevin Wong
00:59:23
We will never be the masters of your experience, but we can say, how do we keep you safe?

Kevin Wong
00:59:30
How do we help you ask certain questions or reflect on what your experience could be in your own situation?

Kevin Wong
00:59:36
And those things can be really helpful before any young person takes any steps.

Host
00:59:40
Okay, that's really helpful.

Host
00:59:42
And I think that a good distinction just so kids and parents alike know where to go, what they can ask, or it's just such a valuable resource that I want to make sure that everyone knows how to use it and really knows the depth of what's available.

Host
00:59:59
Thank you.

Host
00:59:59
Thank you.

Host
01:00:00
So circling back, just I wanted to back up to the advocacy work that you are doing because that is really important.

Host
01:00:09
It's always been important, but I think it's particularly important right now given some of the bills that are in line to be looked at, voted on, et cetera, et cetera.

Host
01:00:19
And so I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what the Trevor project is doing as far as that goes.

Kevin Wong
01:00:27
So for the listeners who might not know, the last couple of years have been really tough for LGBTQ young people and the policies that impact them.

Kevin Wong
01:00:37
So that's not just federal, that's federal, state, local, municipal.

Kevin Wong
01:00:42
Out of all the anti LGBTQ bills that were filed last year, I think it ended up being around 300 or more than 300 in 2022 alone.

Kevin Wong
01:00:54
Many of them target trans and non binary young people and those are generally of two flavors.

Kevin Wong
01:01:02
Gender affirming, care restriction and ability restricting trans folks ability to play sports that align with their on teams that align with their gender identity.

Kevin Wong
01:01:11
We do media interviews to spread our research.

Kevin Wong
01:01:14
We make sure that folks who are setting policy, we have those meetings with them to say this is what you were setting policy around.

Kevin Wong
01:01:20
Here's the actual research.

Kevin Wong
01:01:22
Please do your due diligence and make decisions based off of evidence based research.

Kevin Wong
01:01:26
We will also work with different coalitions, large swaths of organizations to submit letters of support or opposition.

Kevin Wong
01:01:34
We submit amicus briefs.

Kevin Wong
01:01:36
This is a long list you're getting, Heather.

Kevin Wong
01:01:37
But this is all really good work that we do.

Kevin Wong
01:01:40
All of these things help contribute.

Host
01:01:42
That is.

Host
01:01:42
That's exactly what I wanted to know and that's what I think everybody wants to know, like what is being done because we I know that you are.

Host
01:01:50
That you're working out there, that you're doing all of this work.

Host
01:01:53
And I think, too, as people who are listening, as people who are parents or whatever, in whatever capacity, what is it that we can do to help?

Host
01:02:04
Right.

Host
01:02:04
We know that you're doing all of this great work, and there are other.

Host
01:02:07
Other organizations that are doing this really important work, but we see all this stuff right, day in and day out on the news.

Host
01:02:14
We read it online or whatever, and we think, oh, my gosh, be done, or what is being done.

Host
01:02:19
So I appreciate you sharing all the details because people want to know, and it's nice to hear positive news.

Kevin Wong
01:02:29
Yeah.

Kevin Wong
01:02:30
So what you just said, seeing everything in the news, another stat that we have, a little bit of a downer, but the majority of young people, LGBTQ young people, say that recent politics in the news negatively impacts their mental health.

Kevin Wong
01:02:45
And I know that's.

Kevin Wong
01:02:46
I'm an adult.

Kevin Wong
01:02:47
That's definitely true for some of us too.

Kevin Wong
01:02:49
And for LGBTQ young people, to have your identities, your lives debated on a world stage, a national stage, political stage, whatever it is, maybe you even feel like your identities are being used as political pawns.

Kevin Wong
01:03:03
That can really hurt.

Kevin Wong
01:03:06
And in terms of what we can do, what y'all can do, your listeners supporting the Trevor Project is one thing, but if you also want to be one of those folks that we call up in a time of need or text in a time of need, check out the trevorproject.org advocacy.

Kevin Wong
01:03:19
Sign up for our Phone to Action list.

Kevin Wong
01:03:22
And when there is an action to be taken in your state, we will definitely hit you up.

Host
01:03:27
Awesome.

Host
01:03:28
That is exactly what I wanted to know.

Host
01:03:30
I'm wondering specifically, when it comes to mental health with your LGBTQ child, what are the things that parents need to look for or be aware of?

Host
01:03:42
Because I know sometimes as a parent, you can get lost in your process.

Host
01:03:46
Right.

Host
01:03:46
Or lost in where you are or how you're seeing things and what you may be seeing as, like, a behavioral issue or may be something totally different.

Host
01:03:58
Right.

Host
01:03:58
So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about things that parents should look for and be aware of.

Jackie Simmons
01:04:04
Yeah.

Kevin Wong
01:04:05
So first I'm going to share a personal anecdote.

Kevin Wong
01:04:09
When I came out to my parents, I won't tell you the exact scenario, but when I came out to my parents, a friend to me said, remember at the time I was 18 to them.

Kevin Wong
01:04:18
I came out when I was 16 to friends, but 18 to them.

Kevin Wong
01:04:21
Remember, you've had 18 years to think about this.

Kevin Wong
01:04:24
Maybe less if you realized a little later.

Kevin Wong
01:04:27
But you've had many years to think about this.

Kevin Wong
01:04:29
They are finding out now.

Kevin Wong
01:04:31
They are knowing now.

Kevin Wong
01:04:33
So they have less time to understand and less time to educate themselves.

Kevin Wong
01:04:39
This is not for everyone, but this is my specific example.

Kevin Wong
01:04:44
Sometimes it does take a little bit of education.

Kevin Wong
01:04:47
I don't want.

Kevin Wong
01:04:48
What I don't want is for all LGBTQ young people to have to put that burden on themselves.

Kevin Wong
01:04:52
But remember, some parents may have to do a little self educating or maybe asking some questions where they just need to learn a little bit more to get to a place of understanding and acceptance.

Kevin Wong
01:05:03
Acceptance is where I want to end up.

Kevin Wong
01:05:05
So another part of our research shows that acceptance from just one, at least one adult can decrease an LGBTQ young person's risk for suicide attempt by 40%.

Kevin Wong
01:05:19
So I'll say that one more time.

Kevin Wong
01:05:20
40%.

Kevin Wong
01:05:21
That is huge by public health standards.

Kevin Wong
01:05:24
Being that one accepting and supportive adult can seriously change the trajectory of a young person's life.

Kevin Wong
01:05:31
And that does not mean you have to be a clinician, a mental health expert.

Kevin Wong
01:05:36
You don't even have to know all the things there are to know about LGBTQ competencies.

Kevin Wong
01:05:40
You just have to accept and support the young person in your life.

Kevin Wong
01:05:44
That is very powerful.

Kevin Wong
01:05:46
Now, if we want to get a little more technical, I'm happy to share an acronym that helps folks maybe recognize some of the things that they could do in a moment of crisis for a young person.

Kevin Wong
01:05:56
And that acronym is CARE C A R, E.

Kevin Wong
01:06:00
So that stands for connect, ask, respond, and empower.

Kevin Wong
01:06:05
So C connect, if you notice any warning signs of suicide from someone, reach out to them.

Kevin Wong
01:06:11
And that could be big changes in behavior.

Kevin Wong
01:06:14
That could look like exorbitant use of substances or alcohol.

Kevin Wong
01:06:19
That could look like a really big jump in irritability.

Kevin Wong
01:06:22
That could look like impulsiveness.

Kevin Wong
01:06:25
That could also.

Kevin Wong
01:06:26
You know, one of the reasons why our crisis services exist is to ask straight up.

Kevin Wong
01:06:31
That's.

Kevin Wong
01:06:31
This is actually the second letter of the acronym.

Kevin Wong
01:06:33
A is ask to ask straight up if you were thinking about killing yourself or if you're thinking about suicide.

Kevin Wong
01:06:38
So ask.

Kevin Wong
01:06:39
Ask directly.

Kevin Wong
01:06:40
Are you thinking about killing yourself?

Kevin Wong
01:06:42
It is definitely challenging, especially around the times, around these times where mental health discussions have been stigmatized or it's tough to talk about suicide or mental health sometimes, especially if it's so personal.

Kevin Wong
01:06:53
But talking about suicide is proven to reduce risk.

Kevin Wong
01:06:56
So ask.

Kevin Wong
01:06:57
And then the third letter, R stands for respond.

Kevin Wong
01:07:02
If that young person opens up to you about their suicidal ideation or their thoughts about suicide, honor that honor that trust by responding with compassion, empathy.

Kevin Wong
01:07:14
Make sure that they know that you are there for them.

Kevin Wong
01:07:17
And E stands for empower.

Kevin Wong
01:07:19
So talking openly, great first step.

Kevin Wong
01:07:22
But you can also empower them with the information and support they need to improve their situation.

Kevin Wong
01:07:27
So that can look like talking to them about resources on the Trevor Projects website that can look like calling, chatting or texting a counselor.

Kevin Wong
01:07:36
That can also look like going to a school counselor or finding clinical support in maybe a local therapist, et cetera.

Kevin Wong
01:07:45
Some things will be unique decisions to someone's unique situation, but the general framework of care really helps find what's best for that young person.

Host
01:07:59
September is National Suicide Prevention Month and I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories.

Host
01:08:13
According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year.

Host
01:08:23
And we know that number has gone up from the 2022 national survey that they did.

Host
01:08:29
We know we understand why the numbers are the way that they are.

Host
01:08:35
And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity.

Host
01:08:54
They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self harm, greater mental health struggles because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received perhaps their entire lives.

Host
01:09:19
So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me.

Host
01:09:24
I, I think it is something that is so important that we talk about, that we learn about, that we learn how to talk about with our kids.

Host
01:09:34
And that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do.

Host
01:09:39
I am absolutely so delighted to have Ann Moss Rogers on the show today.

Host
01:09:47
She is a mental health and suicide education expert, expert, a professional speaker, trainer and consultant.

Host
01:09:55
She talks about this subject because after her 20 year old son Charles died by suicide in 2015, she chronicled her family's tragedy and her blog which is called Emotionally Naked.

Host
01:10:10
She is the author of an award winning memoir called Diary of a Broken Mind and the bestseller Emotionally Naked A Teacher's Guide to Preventing Suicide and Recognizing Students at Risk.

Host
01:10:24
With her co writer, Dr.

Host
01:10:25
Kimberly O'Brien, she has been a TEDx speaker, was featured in the New York Times Variety Magazine, and was the first non clinician invited to speak on Youth Suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health.

Host
01:10:41
So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and and are here to share with us today.

Host
01:10:49
Thank you so much.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:10:50
Thank you for having the guts to have not only one, but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Host
01:11:06
Oh, my goodness, yes.

Host
01:11:07
The more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case.

Host
01:11:13
And unfortunately right now, particularly the case.

Host
01:11:16
So this work is so very important and this conversation is very important.

Host
01:11:22
I'd like to start maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:11:36
So I started out my professional career in advertising and marketing.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:11:43
And as I raised my children, I was freelancing as a copywriter, basically doing advertising and marketing and digital marketing starting in 1995.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:11:58
That early.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:11:59
And then I owned a digital marketing firm.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:05
And my son was struggling as I was owning this firm, and I was trying to juggle my professional life with what was going on in my family.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:19
So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest, most popular kid in school.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:29
This is pretty rare for a sophomore.

Host
01:12:32
Yeah.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:33
My family thought, wow, they really got it made.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:38
And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance misuse, which had really started to escalate and really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:12:59
And I didn't know why he was doing drugs and alcohol.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:04
And later, from reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:14
And to him, he thought, isn't it a lot better that I'm doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing myself?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:21
He's a teenager.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:23
He's not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead to.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:28
He's just thinking in the moment.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:30
And what happens when they do that is they are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:37
Ends up being we're going to see a counselor, because I don't know what to do and I don't know what's what.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:44
I don't know what he's struggling with.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:46
And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:51
We're not getting a lot of help from the school.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:13:55
I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:00
And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:06
He ends up the counselor, ends up recommended that we kidnap our son out of his bed and have him sent to wilderness program.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:15
And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:20
And so that was the Good part.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:22
And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:29
Funniest, most popular kid in school.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:31
He seemed to relish and love life and a constant revolving door of friends.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:37
And it was really hard to understand, but I accepted it.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:44
And then he was diagnosed with adhd, combined type anxiety and cannabis dependence because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:14:56
And he said it was natural and blah, blah, blah.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:00
But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:05
It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:09
And it definitely.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:11
It wasn't trolls with destination drug.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:14
He would end up becoming addicted to heroin eventually, but he didn't end up becoming addicted to it until he went to therapeutic boarding school.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:24
And it wasn't until he returned in 2014, which was the height of the heroin epidemic, he got caught up in that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:34
And he would eventually confess.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:37
He would do all the things the detox, the rehab, and he would go to recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:48
It was their protocol to take him back to detox.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:54
All he had to do was three days and he could come back to the recovery house.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:15:59
But he saw a friend there and they walked out together.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:03
And for two weeks, I don't know where he is.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:05
Is he under a bridge?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:07
Is he staying with friends?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:11
And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:18
Here's the thing.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:20
I also didn't call him a lie.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:27
And I still kind of wonder why I didn't.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:29
And I think it was fear or I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of bs.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:39
I'm going to tell you that right now.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:40
I wish I'd called him every day and said, as much as I want you to get, I love you even if you don't.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:46
But I didn't do that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:48
I did tell him I loved him.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:49
And I did text him.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:51
And I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:16:54
And it was on June 5, 2015, when my husband and I are sitting in the back of a police car in a parking lot.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:03
They had called us to say, we want to meet with you.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:09
And they delivered the worst news of our lives and told us our son had been found dead.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:15
And I remember thinking, it's got to be overdose, right?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:19
He'd been addicted to heroin.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:22
And when my husband said, how did he die?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:25
And the policeman said it was a suicide, I couldn't even breathe.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:31
My husband is having this explosion in the front seat, and I'm just.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:37
I've forgotten how to breathe.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:39
And it was like this extra twist of a knife and it was like, doesn't he know we love him?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:47
I just didn't understand why suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:49
And it would just be a really long time before I would.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:54
I was.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:17:55
That intent piece makes the grief process so much harder.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:18:03
And you feel like, how did I miss pain and hurt so monumental.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:18:09
And I really, I beat myself up for years over that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:18:16
But then I sold my digital marketing business and I started doing this full time because I wasn't finding the reward in the other things I was doing and I was finding healing by putting my grief into action.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:18:33
So that's why I do what I do today.

Host
01:18:40
I just need to take a moment and I want everybody to take a moment because that and I want to honor.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:18:54
He'S my baby.

Host
01:18:58
The worst imaginable thing.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:19:03
And I thought I took all those steps.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:19:05
I thought this is going to insulate me.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:19:09
And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in the absolute ugliest way possible.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:19:19
I couldn't even imagine a scenario so awful and a journey to healing so absolutely and utterly painful as that was.

Host
01:19:31
I just, I cannot even begin to imagine and I am just so deeply sorry.

Host
01:19:42
I know that there are so many of us who in, in different ways can empathize with different pieces of your story, for sure.

Host
01:19:52
And every parent, right?

Host
01:19:56
Every single parent.

Host
01:19:58
It is the worst imaginable thing.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:03
But I'm here today because I know that Youth who are LGBTQ + are at higher risk.

Host
01:20:12
Yes.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:14
I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:19
But we need to put in place and we need to be more.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:24
We need to be more aware with this group because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance.

Host
01:20:34
So going back, what are the steps that you would say?

Host
01:20:40
This is what to look for.

Host
01:20:41
This is what you need to do.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:45
So I think we look for kids who are isolating more.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:49
Especially it's natural for them to pull away from you, their parent at this age and to align more with their peers.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:20:58
But when they're pulling away from you and their peers and they're isolating alone in a room, that's a red flag.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:08
Self deprecating remarks.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:09
Nobody likes me.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:11
Everyone hates me.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:12
I'm so stupid.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:15
We need to start to ask more questions.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:18
Say, what makes you say that?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:20
I'd love to know.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:22
And remember when you ask questions, to ask with curiosity, not shame, not I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm going to set you straight.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:33
You're listening and you want that person to feel heard, which means not offering solutions, but just asking more questions.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:45
So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:52
Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:55
That's.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:55
Trolls did that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:21:57
So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more, they go to the ER more.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:04
Those kids are often at risk.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:06
So if you know your school nurse by first name, it can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:16
But it's not the only thing.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:18
It's a combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together all at once.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:25
Are they falling asleep a lot in class?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:27
That means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night, behaving recklessly and taking chances.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:35
You've talked about drugs and alcohol, and they're popping every pill they can find because they don't care if they're going to die.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:43
I think we really need to look out for those things.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:47
And what they say, I'm so worthless.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:51
I'm such a burden.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:52
I can't do this anymore.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:53
Now a lot of people think suicide is selfish.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:57
It's not.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:22:58
It is really about feeling despair and feeling like you're so worthless, if you were gone, no one would care.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:07
But I want everyone here to know that continuum, or the time they're in a suicidal episode, is a limited amount of time, and 20 minutes is about average.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:21
And it goes, like, up and down.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:24
And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:33
So they're always ambivalent on some level.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:36
And the really intense feelings of, I want to die, and I want to die now to stop this pain.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:44
Those last 60 to 90 seconds within that 20 minute or so continuum, and it can be shorter and it can be longer, but that's just an example.

Host
01:23:55
Okay?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:23:57
And so I want people to know they come out of it.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:01
And if you've been hearing your child say any of this, it's time to say, I was listening to this podcast episode today, and the woman was talking about her son who died.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:16
And if a child says these phrases, then we need to ask the question, are you thinking it's suicide?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:24
Because if you want to know if someone is thinking suicide, you have to ask directly.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:31
What you will typically see on someone's face is relief because they've been wanting to tell you.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:41
And that's what people don't understand, is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide won't desperately to tell you first thing do not panic.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:52
Whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:24:56
You've been these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:00
You know better than to panic.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:02
Take that deep breath and just start asking questions.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:09
How long have you felt this way?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:11
Tell me more about how you feel.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:13
But if we could come up with a code phrase my toenails are blue.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:18
Whatever you want.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:19
Give them that agency to come up with the funny phrase.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:24
You're not going to want me to ask that every day but we need to agree that that's what this phrase means and it's just a way of us to communicate and for you to bring down my anxiety about this which I'm asking your help.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:42
So when you do that you're saying you're important to me.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:25:46
I need your help for my anxiety and just your presence and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs will help make that happen.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:01
So you making them a part of that process, you cannot fix this for them.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:09
You can be there to support them, you can be there to love them but it's okay not to have all the answers.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:19
It's okay to say I don't even know what to do yet.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:24
Let's text 741741 or the Trevor text line.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:30
Let's do that together or call the Trevor hotline together and let's see what they suggest for next steps.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:26:41
As parents we often want to come out is knowing it all and I think we need to reveal our vulnerability that we don't but we're willing to learn along with them.

Host
01:26:55
Absolutely.

Host
01:26:56
And I think that when they realize that helps them realize our humanity.

Host
01:27:02
Right.

Host
01:27:02
We're not on that pedestal of the parent.

Host
01:27:05
Right.

Host
01:27:05
All of a sudden that brings us down to oh they're human too and oh they're feeling this.

Host
01:27:12
Right.

Host
01:27:12
Like their feelings are similar to my feelings and and I can communicate with them which I is I think such is a it is a game changer in as far as relationship with your child specifically your teenager.

Host
01:27:31
Do love that you brought up the Trevor project and any of these hotlines which will all be in the show notes for you all.

Host
01:27:39
I'm curious your thoughts on this.

Host
01:27:42
A while back I spoke with with someone who also works in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation or when they are in that moment.

Host
01:28:02
Right.

Host
01:28:02
And thank you for breaking that down so clearly that if you ask the question why would you want to stay here why do you want to stay here?

Host
01:28:16
And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here.

Host
01:28:23
That does something in the brain.

Host
01:28:26
And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:29
At the point where they're in ideation, they're so fixated with their tunnel vision.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:38
You can ask that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:39
It's okay to ask that.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:41
But understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:46
Most likely it's going to be worthless.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:49
There are no reasons to stay here because emotionally they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that.

Host
01:28:58
Sure.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:28:59
However, most of the time, we are not in suicidal ideation.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:04
And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:12
What are your reasons for living?

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:15
And they write it down in their own handwriting.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:19
And this has.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:21
It's called the crisis response plan.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:23
And it's Dr.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:24
Craig Bryant.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:25
He gets credit for this.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:27
And the numbers and success rates are incredible.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:30
And I think everyone should have this index card.

Host
01:29:33
Right.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:34
What is so crucial about it is what are the things that make life worth living and what along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel, and my fans.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:48
It might be my football, might be my dog.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:51
But you also want them to also think of a past memory to also enjoy.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:29:58
Just a couple of clues on that card to trigger that memory to mine.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:03
I've got on my card Vienna, because I had dinner one night in a castle in Vienna, and I was invited to this dinner, and it was through my husband's business.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:16
We had no idea what.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:17
And it was so lavish.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:20
It was so fabulous.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:23
We were sitting in this table, and I've never laughed so hard my whole night.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:29
And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty, because we were laughing so hard.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:36
And we clearly just had the magic that night.

Host
01:30:39
Oh, my gosh.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:41
And so that's all I have to remember.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:44
And then I'm back in a happy place.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:30:48
So writing down little things that trigger a memory, if you ask them to take out that card when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:03
And that is a more effective strategy because for them to come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

Host
01:31:14
That makes sense.

Host
01:31:15
Just because you're in that crisis.

Host
01:31:17
Fight or flight.

Host
01:31:18
Yep.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:20
So I want to finish the rest of what goes on that card.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:23
So you've got your reasons for living, and then you have people that you reach out to, and those are your trusted adults you want to write down the crisis lines you'd reach out to with this group.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:38
It would be some of those Trevor Project lifelines.

Host
01:31:43
Right.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:43
So you want them to think ahead of time.

Ann Moss Rogers
01:31:46
What is my plan?

Host
01:31:48
So I highly recommend that.

Host
01:31:51
I think that is an incredible tool and suggestion.

Host
01:31:55
Please share this episode with someone that you love, someone you know who could benefit from listening to it.